Re: Fetching NetSurf
In message Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote: > On 14 Oct at 20:02, Alan Leighton wrote: >> In message <52dea12cebch...@chris-johnson.org.uk> >> cj wrote: >> >>> In article <52de9a64e1ris...@gotadsl.co.uk>, >>>Richard Ashbery wrote: Peter - what I didn't clarify is that John's utility and curl works correctly on the Iyonix (RISC OS 5.18) but not on BB (RISC OS 5.19). I get the same "segmentation fault" you highlighted earlier. >> >>> The current version of cURL will not run on the BB. As mentioned by >>> Frank, use wget instead - that works fine on the BB (ARMini). >> >>> I guess cURL simply needs a recompile with ARMv7 friendly flags. >> >> I run an Iyonix 5.18 and I hope one day some one will make sense of >> all this fetching stuff and how people like me can make use of it. > Well at the end all I did was: > 1. Make a new Directory > 2. Put Curl in it > 3. Put Fetch_NS in it > 4. Double click on Curl > 5. Double click on Fetch_NS > and after quite a few nano seconds, an archive appeared in that > Directory with a name such as 463/zip and containing a new Netsurf, with > installation instructions in the Readme file: Basically just run the > Netsurf within. > This was on a VRPC. >> >> Totally lost from Middlesbrough, > I see your MP has just died, you must be bereft. Stewart was a nice guy, he opened our Hope Foundation Adult Training Centre and was very encouraging. 'In the midst of life we are in death' as the BCP says, Cheers Alan --
Re: Fetching NetSurf
On 14 Oct at 20:02, Alan Leighton wrote: > In message <52dea12cebch...@chris-johnson.org.uk> > cj wrote: > > > In article <52de9a64e1ris...@gotadsl.co.uk>, > >Richard Ashbery wrote: > > > Peter - what I didn't clarify is that John's utility and curl > > > works correctly on the Iyonix (RISC OS 5.18) but not on BB (RISC > > > OS 5.19). I get the same "segmentation fault" you highlighted > > > earlier. > > > The current version of cURL will not run on the BB. As mentioned by > > Frank, use wget instead - that works fine on the BB (ARMini). > > > I guess cURL simply needs a recompile with ARMv7 friendly flags. > > I run an Iyonix 5.18 and I hope one day some one will make sense of > all this fetching stuff and how people like me can make use of it. Well at the end all I did was: 1. Make a new Directory 2. Put Curl in it 3. Put Fetch_NS in it 4. Double click on Curl 5. Double click on Fetch_NS and after quite a few nano seconds, an archive appeared in that Directory with a name such as 463/zip and containing a new Netsurf, with installation instructions in the Readme file: Basically just run the Netsurf within. This was on a VRPC. > > Totally lost from Middlesbrough, I see your MP has just died, you must be bereft. -- Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Re: Fetching NetSurf
In article <52dea1b6e3ch...@chris-johnson.org.uk>, cj wrote: > Well, I now have a modified version of 'Fetch_NS' that works fine on > the ARMini. In addition to actually fetching the latest release (if > there is one) it will quit NetSurf, rotate the 4 previous backup > versions I like to keep many recent versions so I can retrospectively pinpoint when a change in behaviour occured - between version and . This is because one may not always immediately find a problem - only when one visits a particular site. Being able to specify a last version which worked may be useful to the developers in isolating a change which caused it. Just my opinion! John
Re: Fetching NetSurf
In message <52dea12cebch...@chris-johnson.org.uk> cj wrote: > In article <52de9a64e1ris...@gotadsl.co.uk>, >Richard Ashbery wrote: >> Peter - what I didn't clarify is that John's utility and curl works >> correctly on the Iyonix (RISC OS 5.18) but not on BB (RISC OS >> 5.19). I get the same "segmentation fault" you highlighted earlier. > The current version of cURL will not run on the BB. As mentioned by > Frank, use wget instead - that works fine on the BB (ARMini). > I guess cURL simply needs a recompile with ARMv7 friendly flags. I run an Iyonix 5.18 and I hope one day some one will make sense of all this fetching stuff and how people like me can make use of it. Totally lost from Middlesbrough, Alan --
Re: Fetching NetSurf
In article <08749dde52.pnyo...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter Young wrote: > That sounds interesting, and I will do that. Well, I now have a modified version of 'Fetch_NS' that works fine on the ARMini. In addition to actually fetching the latest release (if there is one) it will quit NetSurf, rotate the 4 previous backup versions, extract the latest version from the zip, clean up the temporary files and then run the newly downloaded version. If anyone would like to give it a try, let me know (directly, not on the list). -- Chris Johnson
Re: Fetching NetSurf
In article <52de9a64e1ris...@gotadsl.co.uk>, Richard Ashbery wrote: > Peter - what I didn't clarify is that John's utility and curl works > correctly on the Iyonix (RISC OS 5.18) but not on BB (RISC OS > 5.19). I get the same "segmentation fault" you highlighted earlier. The current version of cURL will not run on the BB. As mentioned by Frank, use wget instead - that works fine on the BB (ARMini). I guess cURL simply needs a recompile with ARMv7 friendly flags. -- Chris Johnson
Re: Fetching NetSurf
On 14 Oct 2012 Richard Ashbery wrote: > In article , Peter Young > wrote: >> On 14 Oct 2012 Richard Ashbery wrote: > And Netsurf 3.0 (Dev C1 #463) now works well, so more thanks. Ditto here. Thanks for #463 & Fetch_NS >>> Excellent utility John - great time saver - many thanks >> Bewilderment continues here, I'm afraid. It seems that my previous >> download was corrupted somehow, and there's potential for it >> working on the ARMini, but it does nothing at all on VRPC running >> RISC OS 4.02. > Peter - what I didn't clarify is that John's utility and curl works > correctly on the Iyonix (RISC OS 5.18) but not on BB (RISC OS 5.19). I > get the same "segmentation fault" you highlighted earlier. > Would be nice to see curl work on ARMv7. Thanks, and agreed, but wget is doing the business for me now, at least some of the time! If I felt stronger, I might have tried cURL under Aemulor. With best wishes, Peter. -- Peter \ / zfc Ta \ Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52 and \/ ____ \ England. family / / \ | | |\ | / _ \ http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk / \__/ \_/ | \| \__/ \__ pnyo...@ormail.co.uk
Re: Fetching NetSurf
On 14 Oct 2012 Peter Young wrote: [snip] > Even odder: I was able to make Fetch_NS work using wget before I had > to go out. After coming back and re-starting the machine, it now fails > again with the "File name 'SCSI::armini.$.Internet.!Fetch_NS.^.". (I > managed to garble this message upthread.) Please, someone, tell me > what I'm doing wrong! The strangeness continues! I did a re-start, and now it works again! I would have a stiff drink if I didn't have to drive later :-) A friend insists that computers are full of fairy dust, and I'm beginning to believe her! With best wishes, Peter. -- Peter \ / zfc Ta \ Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52 and \/ ____ \ England. family / / \ | | |\ | / _ \ http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk / \__/ \_/ | \| \__/ \__ pnyo...@ormail.co.uk
Re: Fetching NetSurf
In article <52de8f9e88ch...@chris-johnson.org.uk>, cj wrote: > In article , Peter Young > wrote: > > unless I open the library so that cURL is booted. > Are you putting the curl *binary* in to Boot:Library? If you are > putting the !cURL *application* in Boot:Library it will not work > because nothing in Boot:Library is booted at boot time. Either > extract the cURL binary from the app and put in to Library or put > the !cURL application in to eg Boot:Resources, where the app will > be booted. Confirmed - !cURL application must be in Boot:Resources Excuse me butting in but on BB -xM (RISC OS 5.19) with !cURL application in Boot:Resources "segmentation fault" occurs as described in Peter's earlier posting. On my Iyonix (RISC OS 5.18) !cURL is in Boot:Resources and in conjunction with !Fetch_NS all works correctly without error. Regards Richard
Re: Fetching NetSurf
In article , Peter Young wrote: > On 14 Oct 2012 Richard Ashbery wrote: > >>> And Netsurf 3.0 (Dev C1 #463) now works well, so more thanks. > >> Ditto here. Thanks for #463 & Fetch_NS > > Excellent utility John - great time saver - many thanks > Bewilderment continues here, I'm afraid. It seems that my previous > download was corrupted somehow, and there's potential for it > working on the ARMini, but it does nothing at all on VRPC running > RISC OS 4.02. Peter - what I didn't clarify is that John's utility and curl works correctly on the Iyonix (RISC OS 5.18) but not on BB (RISC OS 5.19). I get the same "segmentation fault" you highlighted earlier. Would be nice to see curl work on ARMv7. Richard
Re: Fetching NetSurf
On 14 Oct 2012 cj wrote: > In article , >Peter Young wrote: >> unless I open the library so that cURL is booted. > Are you putting the curl *binary* in to Boot:Library? If you are > putting the !cURL *application* in Boot:Library it will not work > because nothing in Boot:Library is booted at boot time. Either > extract the cURL binary from the app and put in to Library or put the > !cURL application in to eg Boot:Resources, where the app will be > booted. Yes, I wondered about that, and tried both ways; neither of them worked on the ARMini. Has anyone got cURL working on a similar machine? Even odder: I was able to make Fetch_NS work using wget before I had to go out. After coming back and re-starting the machine, it now fails again with the "File name 'SCSI::armini.$.Internet.!Fetch_NS.^.". (I managed to garble this message upthread.) Please, someone, tell me what I'm doing wrong! I'll have to go out again later this evening, so won't have time for more experiments today. With best wishes, Peter. -- Peter \ / zfc Ta \ Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52 and \/ ____ \ England. family / / \ | | |\ | / _ \ http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk / \__/ \_/ | \| \__/ \__ pnyo...@ormail.co.uk
Re: Fetching NetSurf
On 14 Oct 2012 cj wrote: > In article <8ff38ede52.pnyo...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, >Peter Young wrote: >> would there be interest in >> adding bits to the program, similar to the bits I had in my old >> script? > I have a script that does that and more, although I need to extend it > to deal with the case when the latest version hasn't changed. Contact > me privately in a day or so - I may have a round tuit by then. That sounds interesting, and I will do that. I was tempted to fiddle with my script, but you know what you're doing and I don't! That all assumes, though, that the other problems get sorted by then. With best wishes, Peter. -- Peter \ / zfc Ta \ Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52 and \/ ____ \ England. family / / \ | | |\ | / _ \ http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk / \__/ \_/ | \| \__/ \__ pnyo...@ormail.co.uk
Re: Fetching NetSurf
In article <8ff38ede52.pnyo...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter Young wrote: > would there be interest in > adding bits to the program, similar to the bits I had in my old > script? I have a script that does that and more, although I need to extend it to deal with the case when the latest version hasn't changed. Contact me privately in a day or so - I may have a round tuit by then. -- Chris Johnson
Re: Fetching NetSurf
In article , Peter Young wrote: > unless I open the library so that cURL is booted. Are you putting the curl *binary* in to Boot:Library? If you are putting the !cURL *application* in Boot:Library it will not work because nothing in Boot:Library is booted at boot time. Either extract the cURL binary from the app and put in to Library or put the !cURL application in to eg Boot:Resources, where the app will be booted. -- Chris Johnson
Re: Fetching NetSurf
On 14 Oct 2012 Peter Young wrote: > On 14 Oct 2012 Richard Ashbery wrote: And Netsurf 3.0 (Dev C1 #463) now works well, so more thanks. >>> Ditto here. Thanks for #463 & Fetch_NS >> Excellent utility John - great time saver - many thanks > Bewilderment continues here, I'm afraid. But no longer! I took up Frank's suggestion of replacing cURL with wget, and it now works, very fast too; sorry to have wittered on so much! Also, I had been expecting task windows to open, which added to the mystification. If I can get a round tuit (or preferably someone who understands things better could get one of those), would there be interest in adding bits to the program, similar to the bits I had in my old script? What these did is: 1) Copy the old NetSurf as Old_NS (note the lack of pling) and then delete the old app. 2) Do sequential deletes and copies so that the last three zips are kept for backup. 3) Open the new zip and copy out the app to the directory in which the script is. With best wishes, Peter. -- Peter \ / zfc Ta \ Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52 and \/ ____ \ England. family / / \ | | |\ | / _ \ http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk / \__/ \_/ | \| \__/ \__ pnyo...@ormail.co.uk
Re: Fetching NetSurf
On 14 Oct 2012 Richard Ashbery wrote: >>> And Netsurf 3.0 (Dev C1 #463) now works well, so more thanks. >> Ditto here. Thanks for #463 & Fetch_NS > Excellent utility John - great time saver - many thanks Bewilderment continues here, I'm afraid. It seems that my previous download was corrupted somehow, and there's potential for it working on the ARMini, but it does nothing at all on VRPC running RISC OS 4.02. On the ARMini it's evident that cURL doesn't work, and falls over with the error message I posted upthread, but there are two oddities. Even though cURL is in Boot.Library, Fetch_NS reports: 14 Oct 13:48:25 000 00D6: Error from Fetch latest NetSurf: File 'curl' not found unless I open the library so that cURL is booted. Then I get the error message when cURL doesn't work, then a very odd message: 4 Oct 14:28:59 000 00CC: Error from (unknown): File name '.' not recognise, in spite of: *show Fetch$Dir Fetch$Dir : SCSI::armini.$.Internet.!Fetch_NS and if I do a Filer_OpenDir on SCSI::armini.$.Internet.!Fetch_NS.^ (without the trailing dot) the correct directory opens, but not if it does have the trailing dot. Has anyone found an ARMini-compatible cURL yet? And why should I get the above two error messages? Or is it just not something that will work with an ARMini? With best wishes, Peter (a.k.a. puzzled of Cheltenham). -- Peter \ / zfc Ta \ Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52 and \/ ____ \ England. family / / \ | | |\ | / _ \ http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk / \__/ \_/ | \| \__/ \__ pnyo...@ormail.co.uk
Re: Fetching NetSurf
> > And Netsurf 3.0 (Dev C1 #463) now works well, so more thanks. > Ditto here. Thanks for #463 & Fetch_NS Excellent utility John - great time saver - many thanks Richard
Re: Fetching NetSurf
In article , Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote: > On 13 Oct at 21:06, Frank de Bruijn wrote: > > In article <52de2a7a21ch...@chris-johnson.org.uk>, > >cj wrote: > > > In article <52de202c94netsurf-...@aconet.nl>, > > >Frank de Bruijn wrote: > > > > Google directed me to 7.11.0 by James Bursa and that's one of the > > > > ones that fail. > > > > > That's the one I used (7.11.0) which did work on the Iyonix (RISC OS > > > 5.19, 4-Oct-2012). > > > > Thanks, but I've got it working now. Some completely forgotten rc file > > was interfering. > Thanks to everyone for sorting out how to get it, though I did not get > the above rc problem. > And Netsurf 3.0 (Dev C1 #463) now works well, so more thanks. Ditto here. Thanks for #463 & Fetch_NS -- Chris
Re: Fetching NetSurf
On 13 Oct at 21:06, Frank de Bruijn wrote: > In article <52de2a7a21ch...@chris-johnson.org.uk>, >cj wrote: > > In article <52de202c94netsurf-...@aconet.nl>, > >Frank de Bruijn wrote: > > > Google directed me to 7.11.0 by James Bursa and that's one of the > > > ones that fail. > > > That's the one I used (7.11.0) which did work on the Iyonix (RISC OS > > 5.19, 4-Oct-2012). > > Thanks, but I've got it working now. Some completely forgotten rc file > was interfering. Thanks to everyone for sorting out how to get it, though I did not get the above rc problem. And Netsurf 3.0 (Dev C1 #463) now works well, so more thanks. -- Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Re: Fetching NetSurf
In article <52de1d213bch...@chris-johnson.org.uk>, cj wrote: > to > If "" <> "" Now changed in the download, thanks Chris. I really knew that - once! Must make a note somewhere! Sorry NetSurf team for taking up lots of your list! John
Re: Fetching NetSurf
On 13 Oct 2012 Frank de Bruijn wrote: > In article <52de202c94netsurf-...@aconet.nl>, >Frank de Bruijn wrote: >> That part does, yes. Unfortunately, the next hurdle is curl itself. I >> tried four different versions. The oldest one didn't know the -k switch >> and the other three reported they 'Failed writing header'. That's on an >> Iyonix, by the way. > Never mind. I switched to wget. Just changed the 'curl' bits to wget and > the three options (-s -k -o) to the single -qO (that's an uppercase O by > the way) and that works like a charm. Done all that, as far as I can see, and still get the "unknown operand" error. wget 1.12 here. With best wishes, Peter. -- Peter \ / zfc Ta \ Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52 and \/ ____ \ England. family / / \ | | |\ | / _ \ http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk / \__/ \_/ | \| \__/ \__ pnyo...@ormail.co.uk
Re: Fetching NetSurf
In article <52de2a7a21ch...@chris-johnson.org.uk>, cj wrote: > In article <52de202c94netsurf-...@aconet.nl>, >Frank de Bruijn wrote: > > Google directed me to 7.11.0 by James Bursa and that's one of the > > ones that fail. > That's the one I used (7.11.0) which did work on the Iyonix (RISC OS > 5.19, 4-Oct-2012). Thanks, but I've got it working now. Some completely forgotten rc file was interfering. Regards, Frank
Re: Fetching NetSurf
In article <52de202c94netsurf-...@aconet.nl>, Frank de Bruijn wrote: > Google > directed me to 7.11.0 by James Bursa and that's one of the ones that > fail. That's the one I used (7.11.0) which did work on the Iyonix (RISC OS 5.19, 4-Oct-2012). -- Chris Johnson
Re: Fetching NetSurf
In article <52de202c94netsurf-...@aconet.nl>, Frank de Bruijn wrote: > That part does, yes. Unfortunately, the next hurdle is curl itself. I > tried four different versions. The oldest one didn't know the -k switch > and the other three reported they 'Failed writing header'. That's on an > Iyonix, by the way. Never mind. I switched to wget. Just changed the 'curl' bits to wget and the three options (-s -k -o) to the single -qO (that's an uppercase O by the way) and that works like a charm. Regards, Frank
Re: Fetching NetSurf
In article <52de1d213bch...@chris-johnson.org.uk>, cj wrote: > Try going in to !Fetch_NS.!Run and change the line > If NetSurf$LatestVersion <> "" THEN Set NetSurf$PreviousVersion > > to > If "" <> "" THEN Set NetSurf$PreviousVersion > > It then works OK. That part does, yes. Unfortunately, the next hurdle is curl itself. I tried four different versions. The oldest one didn't know the -k switch and the other three reported they 'Failed writing header'. That's on an Iyonix, by the way. What's the most recent port of curl and where does one get it? Google directed me to 7.11.0 by James Bursa and that's one of the ones that fail. For the record, 7.10.8 and 7.16.4 have the same problem. Regards, Frank
Re: Fetching NetSurf
On 13 Oct 2012 cj wrote: > In article , >Peter Young wrote: >> Fetch_NS >> now runs but falls over with: >> pc:9da08 sp: 207f8c ^post_signal() >> pc:9dd14 sp: 207fa4 __unixlib_raise_signal() >> pc:f9ea4 sp: 206b54 __h_cback() >> pc:25008 sp: 206b70 strncasecmp() >> pc: ba3c sp: 206b80 ?() >> pc:32084 sp: 206e10 ?() >> pc:3368c sp: 206f60 ?() >> pc:b3950 sp: 206f78 _main() >> Termination signal received: Segmentation fault > This is cURL falling over. Is it ARMv7 compatible? I haven't tried > yet on the ARMini. I suspect it isn't compatible; I'll be interested to see what you got on the ARMini. With best wishes, Peter. -- Peter \ / zfc Ta \ Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52 and \/ ____ \ England. family / / \ | | |\ | / _ \ http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk / \__/ \_/ | \| \__/ \__ pnyo...@ormail.co.uk
Re: Fetching NetSurf
On 13 Oct 2012 cj wrote: > In article , >Peter Young wrote: >> Any ideas as to what is going on would be gratefully received! > Try going in to !Fetch_NS.!Run and change the line > If NetSurf$LatestVersion <> "" THEN Set NetSurf$PreviousVersion > > to > If "" <> "" THEN Set NetSurf$PreviousVersion > > It then works OK. Not here, I'm afraid. Made that change, and still get the "Unknown operand" error. Then I tried it on VRPC, RISC OS 4.02, and got the same error. > I have always had an automated way of upgrading NetSurf. So did I, and of course it no longer works. > It is possible to extend the !Run file to keep the previous > version(s) and automatically copy !NetSurf out of the archive etc. > Obey files can be very powerful! Yes. my script did that, and also kept the three previous zips as backups. With best wishes, Peter. -- Peter \ / zfc Ta \ Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52 and \/ ____ \ England. family / / \ | | |\ | / _ \ http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk / \__/ \_/ | \| \__/ \__ pnyo...@ormail.co.uk
Re: Fetching NetSurf
In article , Peter Young wrote: > Fetch_NS > now runs but falls over with: > pc:9da08 sp: 207f8c ^post_signal() > pc:9dd14 sp: 207fa4 __unixlib_raise_signal() > pc:f9ea4 sp: 206b54 __h_cback() > pc:25008 sp: 206b70 strncasecmp() > pc: ba3c sp: 206b80 ?() > pc:32084 sp: 206e10 ?() > pc:3368c sp: 206f60 ?() > pc:b3950 sp: 206f78 _main() > Termination signal received: Segmentation fault This is cURL falling over. Is it ARMv7 compatible? I haven't tried yet on the ARMini. -- Chris Johnson
Re: Fetching NetSurf
In article , Peter Young wrote: > Any ideas as to what is going on would be gratefully received! Try going in to !Fetch_NS.!Run and change the line If NetSurf$LatestVersion <> "" THEN Set NetSurf$PreviousVersion to If "" <> "" THEN Set NetSurf$PreviousVersion It then works OK. I have always had an automated way of upgrading NetSurf. It is possible to extend the !Run file to keep the previous version(s) and automatically copy !NetSurf out of the archive etc. Obey files can be very powerful! -- Chris Johnson
Re: Fetching NetSurf
On 13 Oct 2012 John Williams wrote: > If anyone RISC OS-side has a need for a new downloading app, I've put > mine at: > http://petit.four.free.fr/FetchNS.zip > It saves the latest version, if not already downloaded, in the directory > where you put it. > It uses the "LATEST" file the developers have thoughtfully provided. My old > version had to parse the old Builds page! A great idea, but not working for me; ARMini, RISC OS 5.19. Initially, I get the unhelpful message: 13 Oct 17:46:20 000 0168: Error from (unknown): Unknown operand and have discovered that the only system variable needed by either Fetch_NS or cURL (yes, it's in Boot.Library) is Fetch$Dir. Flailing round wildly in my ignorance, I ran the SetLatest BASIC program, so as to set the "Previous***" system variable, and Fetch_NS now runs but falls over with: pc:9da08 sp: 207f8c ^post_signal() pc:9dd14 sp: 207fa4 __unixlib_raise_signal() pc:f9ea4 sp: 206b54 __h_cback() pc:25008 sp: 206b70 strncasecmp() pc: ba3c sp: 206b80 ?() pc:32084 sp: 206e10 ?() pc:3368c sp: 206f60 ?() pc:b3950 sp: 206f78 _main() Termination signal received: Segmentation fault * Any ideas as to what is going on would be gratefully received! With best wishes, Peter. -- Peter \ / zfc Ta \ Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52 and \/ ____ \ England. family / / \ | | |\ | / _ \ http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk / \__/ \_/ | \| \__/ \__ pnyo...@ormail.co.uk
Re: Fetching NetSurf
On 13 Oct, John Williams wrote: > a new downloading app Which fails to run with the following error: 13 Oct 17:28:34 000 0168: Error from (unknown): Unknown operand -- Brian Howlett - I ate a dozen oysters last night. Only seven of them worked...
