Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carl Hartung]

On Wednesday 17 May 2006 00:37, houghi wrote:
> On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 12:26:46AM -0400, Carl Hartung wrote:
> > Houghi, with all due respect this bickering is unbecoming and boring.
> > Please stop.
>
> So now I am the bad guy?

No, of course not. Don't be defensive. I'm just asking you to refrain from 
parsing other people's language too finely on this very public list and 
provoking/engaging in protracted, meaningless debates.

Carl

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 12:26:46AM -0400, Carl Hartung wrote:
> Houghi, with all due respect this bickering is unbecoming and boring. Please 
> stop.

So now I am the bad guy?

houghi
-- 
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ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carl Hartung]

On Wednesday 17 May 2006 00:12, houghi wrote:
> I can go only by what you tell me. If you tel me you only looked at the
> 9.3 and not at the 10.0 and/or 10.1 then I can only asume you did not look
> there. Why would you not tell it if you looked there?

Houghi, with all due respect this bickering is unbecoming and boring. Please 
stop.

Carl

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 02:21:59AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > If I see something like that, I file a bugreport.
> 
> But I don't :-P

Pity. and the smiley does not help there.

> > It does not alter what you said. However what you said makes no sence. You
> > could also have said that the DVD was silver.
> 
> Perhaps you and I don't speak the same English...

I say that they concluded that it was cheaper and you said that the
Admin guide was in the box. I never said that their conclusion was
correct. I just said that they concluded that money was the important
factor.
A more accurate reply would have been: "If having a cheaper box was the
target, why is it more expensive then the Update used to be?"

> In any case, if you distribute such a dvd internationally, you could be in 
> trouble.

Yes. I said specificaly 'in your country'. For me this is almost¹ the
opposite of 'international'. So I was not talking about international.
There are other ways that you DVD can become illegal and we are also not
talking wbout them as well.

¹Reminds me of one of the quotes of George W. Bush. "Most of our import
comes from foreign countries"

houghi
-- 
Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es 
ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
und Arbeit,  und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun 
- Johannes Müller-Elmau

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 02:13:42AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > How interested are you all in this subject if you can't even bother to
> > look it up?
> 
> You think I didn't? I did, in fact... the admin book of 9.3 (the last one 
> that was printed) has what I copied above, as I said. And the reference 
> book (which is the admin book nowdays) of 10.1 has the same notice.

So why did you not say that the 10.1 had the same notice?

> Don't blame people so easily :-/

I can go only by what you tell me. If you tel me you only looked at the
9.3 and not at the 10.0 and/or 10.1 then I can only asume you did not look
there. Why would you not tell it if you looked there?

houghi
-- 
Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es 
ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
und Arbeit,  und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun 
- Johannes Müller-Elmau

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 18:39 +0200, houghi wrote:

> On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 04:33:32PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > By the way, at least one of the installation screens of RC1..3 included 
> > the SuSE logo. I will not say which, of course. :-P
> 
> If I see something like that, I file a bugreport.

But I don't :-P

>  
> > > > > 7) Because they sold more Upgrades then Full versions and guessed it 
> > > > > was
> > > > > because of price
> > > > 
> > > > The upgrade contained precisely the admin book.
> > > 
> > > Read the part after the and.
> > 
> > I did, and? It doesn't alter what I said.
> 
> It does not alter what you said. However what you said makes no sence. You
> could also have said that the DVD was silver.

Perhaps you and I don't speak the same English...



> > > It might be in the country where you live in. Or perhaps you are a licence
> > > holder. I know I put it in when I burn my DVD and give it to somebody.
> > 
> > Read again: you know it is not possible to include libdvdcss in a dvd (not 
> > legally, at least, and guaranteed to be legal). If you don't, you should. 
> > An unfortunate fact. Ask Novell...
> 
> I believe there are countries where the use of libdvdcss is legal.

And in some it isn't. I don't even know if it is in mine, I'm not a lawyer 
and I'm not going to risk it. Some people say it is, some say it isn't...

In any case, if you distribute such a dvd internationally, you could be in 
trouble.

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   Carlos Robinson

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 18:35 +0200, houghi wrote:

> On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 04:47:53PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > > I didn't read neither the licence of suse books. are they print free?
> > 
> > For personal use, I'm sure they are. The 9.3 edition I have in my lap says 
> > "this publication is the intellectual property of Novell Inc". "Its 
> > content's can be duplicated, either in part or in whole, provided that a 
> > copyright label is visibly located on each copy."
> 
> How interested are you all in this subject if you can't even bother to
> look it up?

You think I didn't? I did, in fact... the admin book of 9.3 (the last one 
that was printed) has what I copied above, as I said. And the reference 
book (which is the admin book nowdays) of 10.1 has the same notice.

Don't blame people so easily :-/

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   Carlos Robinson
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 04:59:45PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > By the way, at least one of the installation screens of RC1..3 included
> > the SuSE logo. I will not say which, of course. :-P
> 
> Ejem!
> 
> ./CD1/suse/i586/i4l-base-2006.2.28-8.i586.rpm:-rwxr-xr-x1 root
> root22075 Mar 14  2005 /sbin/conf.d/SuSEconfig.isdn
> 
> ;-)

And your point is? That is a filename. And looking at the filename, its
development started when the name of the company was still SuSE. Now the
product is called SUSE.

houghi
-- 
Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es 
ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
und Arbeit,  und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun 
- Johannes Müller-Elmau

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 04:33:32PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> By the way, at least one of the installation screens of RC1..3 included 
> the SuSE logo. I will not say which, of course. :-P

If I see something like that, I file a bugreport.
 
> > > > 7) Because they sold more Upgrades then Full versions and guessed it was
> > > > because of price
> > > 
> > > The upgrade contained precisely the admin book.
> > 
> > Read the part after the and.
> 
> I did, and? It doesn't alter what I said.

It does not alter what you said. However what you said makes no sence. You
could also have said that the DVD was silver.

> > It might be in the country where you live in. Or perhaps you are a licence
> > holder. I know I put it in when I burn my DVD and give it to somebody.
> 
> Read again: you know it is not possible to include libdvdcss in a dvd (not 
> legally, at least, and guaranteed to be legal). If you don't, you should. 
> An unfortunate fact. Ask Novell...

I believe there are countries where the use of libdvdcss is legal.

houghi
-- 
Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es 
ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
und Arbeit,  und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun 
- Johannes Müller-Elmau

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 04:47:53PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > I didn't read neither the licence of suse books. are they print free?
> 
> For personal use, I'm sure they are. The 9.3 edition I have in my lap says 
> "this publication is the intellectual property of Novell Inc". "Its 
> content's can be duplicated, either in part or in whole, provided that a 
> copyright label is visibly located on each copy."

How interested are you all in this subject if you can't even bother to
look it up?

opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/docu/en/apparmor-admin-guide_en.pdf
opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/docu/en/application_en.pdf
opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/docu/en/applying_patches.pdf
These have no mentioning of anything, wich means they are copyrighted by
default as specified under the erne convention.

ftp.opensuse.org/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/docu/en/startup_en.pdf
opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/docu/en/reference_en.pdf
These have the following:
This publication is intellectual property of Novell Inc.
Its contents can be duplicated, either in part or in whole, provided that
a copyright label is visibly located on each copy.

So the first three can't be duplicated, but the last two can.

houghi
-- 
Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es 
ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
und Arbeit,  und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun 
- Johannes Müller-Elmau

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 16:33 +0200, I wrote:

> > So even though you don't care about their wishes to be called SUSE,
> > because that is what they are called, they should care about your wishes>
> 
> Didn't you see the smiley? :-PPP
> 
> 
> By the way, at least one of the installation screens of RC1..3 included
> the SuSE logo. I will not say which, of course. :-P

Ejem!

./CD1/suse/i586/i4l-base-2006.2.28-8.i586.rpm:-rwxr-xr-x1 root
root22075 Mar 14  2005 /sbin/conf.d/SuSEconfig.isdn

;-)

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   Carlos Robinson

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 14:49 +0200, jdd wrote:

> Carlos E. R. wrote:
> 
> > > Don't forget to include a DVD and perhaps even MPlayer and libdvdcss
> > > and
> > > other multimedia things.
> > 
> > 
> > You know that is not possible.
> 
> with a book it migh be possible (sufffice to buy the rights :-)

Of libdvdcss? No way... you might get away publishing the source as an 
educational or investigation exercise, but if you want to sell such a dvd, 
youd' be in trouble. Depends on the country, but if you intend to sell 
internationally, you are in deeper trouble. If it weren't so, Novell would 
be distributing it.

> 
> I didn't read neither the licence of suse books. are they print free?

For personal use, I'm sure they are. The 9.3 edition I have in my lap says 
"this publication is the intellectual property of Novell Inc". "Its 
content's can be duplicated, either in part or in whole, provided that a 
copyright label is visibly located on each copy."


> I remember, a very long time ago, I bough a PC computer with manuals where the
> make was blanked with desktop blanco (and some place they forgotten an "ibm"
> :-)

Tsk, bad boys...

At a company I worked for, we scratched the labeling off chips with an 
electric drill. That way they could charge a hugish amount for a board 
with an opamp and a three nand gates at most...

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   Carlos Robinson
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 14:58 +0200, houghi wrote:

> > > 1) Because SuSE does not exist anymore. It is SUSE
> > 
> > I don't care :-P
> 
> So even though you don't care about their wishes to be called SUSE,
> because that is what they are called, they should care about your wishes>

Didn't you see the smiley? :-PPP


By the way, at least one of the installation screens of RC1..3 included 
the SuSE logo. I will not say which, of course. :-P


> > > 7) Because they sold more Upgrades then Full versions and guessed it was
> > > because of price
> > 
> > The upgrade contained precisely the admin book.
> 
> Read the part after the and.

I did, and? It doesn't alter what I said.


> > > Don't forget to include a DVD and perhaps even MPlayer and libdvdcss and
> > > other multimedia things.
> > 
> > You know that is not possible.
> 
> It might be in the country where you live in. Or perhaps you are a licence
> holder. I know I put it in when I burn my DVD and give it to somebody.

Read again: you know it is not possible to include libdvdcss in a dvd (not 
legally, at least, and guaranteed to be legal). If you don't, you should. 
An unfortunate fact. Ask Novell...

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   Carlos Robinson
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 01:46:07PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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> 
> 
> The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 12:45 +0200, houghi wrote:
> 
> > > Probably. Then, why not the one made by SuSE?
> > 
> > 1) Because SuSE does not exist anymore. It is SUSE
> 
> I don't care :-P

So even though you don't care about their wishes to be called SUSE,
because that is what they are called, they should care about your wishes>

> > 7) Because they sold more Upgrades then Full versions and guessed it was
> > because of price
> 
> The upgrade contained precisely the admin book.

Read the part after the and.

> > 8) Because they want to encourage others to write books
> 
> They already wrote and translated it.
> 
> 
> > Don't forget to include a DVD and perhaps even MPlayer and libdvdcss and
> > other multimedia things.
> 
> You know that is not possible.

It might be in the country where you live in. Or perhaps you are a licence
holder. I know I put it in when I burn my DVD and give it to somebody.

houghi
-- 
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ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[jdd]

Carlos E. R. wrote:


Don't forget to include a DVD and perhaps even MPlayer and libdvdcss and
other multimedia things.



You know that is not possible.


with a book it migh be possible (sufffice to buy the rights :-)

I didn't read neither the licence of suse books. are they 
print free?


I remember, a very long time ago, I bough a PC computer with 
manuals where the make was blanked with desktop blanco (and 
some place they forgotten an "ibm" :-)


jdd


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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 12:45 +0200, houghi wrote:

> > Probably. Then, why not the one made by SuSE?
> 
> 1) Because SuSE does not exist anymore. It is SUSE

I don't care :-P

> 7) Because they sold more Upgrades then Full versions and guessed it was
> because of price

The upgrade contained precisely the admin book.

> 8) Because they want to encourage others to write books

They already wrote and translated it.


> Don't forget to include a DVD and perhaps even MPlayer and libdvdcss and
> other multimedia things.

You know that is not possible.

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Marcus Meissner]

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 01:29:09PM +0200, jdd wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote:
> 
> >Almost the same books you see in ...inst-source/docu/en, are translated to 
> >several languages. I don't know which is now the "admin" book, it might be 
> >the "reference_en.pdf", and it is translated to Spanish and French, at 
> >least. So the translation cost has been invested already... why not sell 
> >the book and try make some money out of it?
> 
> * I didn't verify if the books are uptodate

They are.

Ciao, Marcus

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[jdd]

Carlos E. R. wrote:

Almost the same books you see in ...inst-source/docu/en, are translated to 
several languages. I don't know which is now the "admin" book, it might be 
the "reference_en.pdf", and it is translated to Spanish and French, at 
least. So the translation cost has been invested already... why not sell 
the book and try make some money out of it?


* I didn't verify if the books are uptodate
* the more expensive, by far, is the printing in small 
quantities. selling the bookk has also price (weight, 
shipping costs).


however, I would _prefere_ to have the admin book than the 
other :-)

jdd


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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 12:30:07PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> So the translation cost has been invested already... why not sell 
> the book and try make some money out of it?

Because it is not worth the trouble.

houghi
-- 
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ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 12:21:52PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 07:23 +0200, houghi wrote:
> > On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 01:38:57AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > > Well... perhaps. But they could sell instead the book. Even a book with a 
> > > DVD, or with a magazine that includes the DVD :-p
> > 
> > There are plenty of books you can buy. Some of them are also with SUSE CD.
> 
> Probably. Then, why not the one made by SuSE?

1) Because SuSE does not exist anymore. It is SUSE
2) Because Novell is into the software business and not into the Book
printing business.
3) Because it is not costefficient
4) Because it has been proven that people generaly don't read them anyway
5) Because people want cheaper
6) Because the process took too much time and resources
7) Because they sold more Upgrades then Full versions and guessed it was
because of price
8) Because they want to encourage others to write books
9) ...

My guess would be 8. So just start writing your own book and start
becoming rich. I have not looked at the licence for the User and Admin
pdf guide, but perhaps you can sell them in printed form as well.

Don't forget to include a DVD and perhaps even MPlayer and libdvdcss and
other multimedia things.

That is the nice thing about OSS. If the people don't do what you want, do
it yourself.

houghi
-- 
Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es 
ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 06:11:19AM +0200, jdd wrote:
> Peter Flodin wrote:
> 
> >SUSE Linux needs to compete with Windows which comes bundled with most
> >people's machine (the cost is hidden).
> 
> tha windows admin book is wonderfull, isn't it?

Nice one. :-)

houghi
-- 
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ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 07:17 +0200, houghi wrote:

> On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 12:13:52AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > > Market share. Spread SUSE Linux, grow the community, 
> > 
> > IMO, they would get more of that with the admin book included. More sales 
> > the better. This way, they will get mostly firstimers (repeaters will 
> > download) - and firstimers need manuals.
> 
> In the opinion of the number of downloads, you are incorrect.
> Wait, that is not an opinion, that is a fact. ;-)

No, sorry, it is not. If SuSE/Novell sold boxes, some with admin book, 
some without, we could compare.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos Robinson

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 06:04 +0200, jdd wrote:

> > IMO, they would get more of that with the admin book included. More sales
> > the better. This way, they will get mostly firstimers (repeaters will
> > download) - and firstimers need manuals.
> 
> and the admin book could be in english.
> 
> translation cost are very high (and they need print cost also)

Almost the same books you see in ...inst-source/docu/en, are translated to 
several languages. I don't know which is now the "admin" book, it might be 
the "reference_en.pdf", and it is translated to Spanish and French, at 
least. So the translation cost has been invested already... why not sell 
the book and try make some money out of it?

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   Carlos Robinson
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 07:23 +0200, houghi wrote:

> On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 01:38:57AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > Well... perhaps. But they could sell instead the book. Even a book with a 
> > DVD, or with a magazine that includes the DVD :-p
> 
> There are plenty of books you can buy. Some of them are also with SUSE CD.

Probably. Then, why not the one made by SuSE?

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos Robinson

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[jdd]

Peter Flodin wrote:


SUSE Linux needs to compete with Windows which comes bundled with most
people's machine (the cost is hidden).


tha windows admin book is wonderfull, isn't it?

jdd (kidding)

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[jdd]

Carlos E. R. wrote:

IMO, they would get more of that with the admin book included. More sales 
the better. This way, they will get mostly firstimers (repeaters will 
download) - and firstimers need manuals.


and the admin book could be in english.

translation cost are very high (and they need print cost also)

jdd


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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[jdd]

Carlos E. R. wrote:


They could sell it as a book with some software included ;-)


and that is what was SUSE Linux before: a very good book 
with some disks...


jdd


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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Pascal Bleser]

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Peter Flodin wrote:
> On 5/16/06, Pascal Bleser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Right. I even think it's a good concept.
>> Mostly because it is available as a free download (I guess), SUSE 10.0
>> has had a huge gain. At least the Packman download stats have tripled
>> since 10.0 has been released.
> 
> The strategy is quite clear. Spread the good word with SUSE Linux, and
> the more successful it is, the easier for Novell to convince people
> that the sister product is ready for corporate desktop.

Exactly.

> I haven't understood the concern some have expressed here that SUSE
> Linux is is not making money from selling the box.

I'm sure there are still quite a few people who buy the box.
Also, the price of the retail box has dropped (by having a box of a
lesser quality and also by dropping the large book from it), from 80-90
EUR to 60 EUR.

What could be interesting is to know how many people who bought the box
before now only download the ISOs from the internet.
Personally, I don't, I bought every single retail box since 5.0 and will
continue to do so.

> If there is a missing admin guide of sufficient quality, now is the
> time to create an opensource version, don't buy the box and spend the
> money on getting it printed.

AFAIK it is accessible for contributors, and it's available on the
internet repo anyway (it's not on the CDs for 10.1, unfortunately (?)).

> SUSE Linux needs to compete with Windows which comes bundled with most
> people's machine (the cost is hidden). It needs to compete with other

Yeah, that's a tough one. Needs to have the big vendors involved, Dell,
HP, ... Hopefully things will get moving in that area.
But I think we should rather try to make the best Linux distribution and
the best community around it. As far as competing with Windows, that's
Novell's problem (not that it's success doesn't have influence on us,
though).

> distros such as Ubuntu, which will ship you printed CDs for free, and
> provide 3 years of support on desktop and 5 years on the server (with
> no registration :-).

Yes and no. Ubuntu still fails to have a viable model, it only works
because Shuttleworth is putting a few millions of $ into the community
every year, without anything in return.
I guess that one day (and probably not too far away from now), Canonical
will have to put up some business model of some kind, whatever that will be.

cheers
- --
  -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
  /\\ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 01:38:57AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> Well... perhaps. But they could sell instead the book. Even a book with a 
> DVD, or with a magazine that includes the DVD :-p

There are plenty of books you can buy. Some of them are also with SUSE CD.

houghi
-- 
Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es 
ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
und Arbeit,  und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun 
- Johannes Müller-Elmau

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 10:28:34AM +1000, Peter Flodin wrote:
> SUSE Linux needs to compete with Windows which comes bundled with most
> people's machine (the cost is hidden). It needs to compete with other
> distros such as Ubuntu, which will ship you printed CDs for free, and
> provide 3 years of support on desktop and 5 years on the server (with
> no registration :-).

Please no competition with Windows. Please no competition with anybody.
I am not into this to compete with Windows, or Ubuntu, or BeOS or
whatever.

If 3 years support is what people actually want and need and if there is a
feasability to achieve it, then it is something we (or Novell) must do. If
not then not. Not because somebody else is doing it.

houghi
-- 
Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es 
ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
und Arbeit,  und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun 
- Johannes Müller-Elmau

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 12:13:52AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > Market share. Spread SUSE Linux, grow the community, 
> 
> IMO, they would get more of that with the admin book included. More sales 
> the better. This way, they will get mostly firstimers (repeaters will 
> download) - and firstimers need manuals.

In the opinion of the number of downloads, you are incorrect.
Wait, that is not an opinion, that is a fact. ;-)

> > make money with
> > SLES, SLED, ...
> 
> That would not be affected.

It is used as a leverage product. The more people use SUSE at home, the
more people will think about it to use at the company. I can't seem to
search lists.opensuse.org, so I can't find the posting where this all was
stated.

houghi
-- 
Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es 
ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
und Arbeit,  und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun 
- Johannes Müller-Elmau

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Peter Flodin]

On 5/16/06, Pascal Bleser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Right. I even think it's a good concept.
Mostly because it is available as a free download (I guess), SUSE 10.0
has had a huge gain. At least the Packman download stats have tripled
since 10.0 has been released.


The strategy is quite clear. Spread the good word with SUSE Linux, and
the more successful it is, the easier for Novell to convince people
that the sister product is ready for corporate desktop.

I haven't understood the concern some have expressed here that SUSE
Linux is is not making money from selling the box.

If there is a missing admin guide of sufficient quality, now is the
time to create an opensource version, don't buy the box and spend the
money on getting it printed.

SUSE Linux needs to compete with Windows which comes bundled with most
people's machine (the cost is hidden). It needs to compete with other
distros such as Ubuntu, which will ship you printed CDs for free, and
provide 3 years of support on desktop and 5 years on the server (with
no registration :-).

Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin

Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Eberhard Moenkeberg]

Hi,

On Tue, 16 May 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 00:34 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:



In my guess the current Novell Linux strategy is "the more publicity the
better". And indeed they give away their good work for nothing currently, so
there is only a small market for the box. But a huge spreading of the box
content...


Well... perhaps. But they could sell instead the book. Even a book with a
DVD, or with a magazine that includes the DVD :-p


Novell's home is USA. So I understand the strategy is to "home" SUSE 
Linux there too now.
There seem to be totally different market situations for SUSE Linux in 
Germany/Europe and USA.
In Germany, meanwhile it is a must for every Linux paper to include a 
SUSE-10.1 DVD.
In USA, it seems one has to pay like for adverising for inclusion of 
SUSE-10.1 DVDs into magazines.

So the "Linux scene newspaper publicity" is a good next goal over there.


Cheers -e
--
Eberhard Moenkeberg ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Tuesday 2006-05-16 at 00:34 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

> In my guess the current Novell Linux strategy is "the more publicity the
> better". And indeed they give away their good work for nothing currently, so
> there is only a small market for the box. But a huge spreading of the box
> content...

Well... perhaps. But they could sell instead the book. Even a book with a 
DVD, or with a magazine that includes the DVD :-p

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos Robinson

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Pascal Bleser]

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Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, 16 May 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> The Monday 2006-05-15 at 23:50 +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:
> 
 But... what is the point in producing a box in a way that will have
 less
 sales? I must be dumb, I don't see it.
>>>
>>> Market share. Spread SUSE Linux, grow the community,
>>
>> IMO, they would get more of that with the admin book included. More sales
>> the better. This way, they will get mostly firstimers (repeaters will
>> download) - and firstimers need manuals.
>>
>>> make money with
>>> SLES, SLED, ...
>>
>> That would not be affected.
> 
> In my guess the current Novell Linux strategy is "the more publicity the
> better". And indeed they give away their good work for nothing
> currently, so there is only a small market for the box. But a huge
> spreading of the box content...

Right. I even think it's a good concept.
Mostly because it is available as a free download (I guess), SUSE 10.0
has had a huge gain. At least the Packman download stats have tripled
since 10.0 has been released.

> Let's hope with them.

Yep.

cheers
- --
  -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Eberhard Moenkeberg]

Hi,

On Tue, 16 May 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Monday 2006-05-15 at 23:50 +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:



But... what is the point in producing a box in a way that will have less
sales? I must be dumb, I don't see it.


Market share. Spread SUSE Linux, grow the community,


IMO, they would get more of that with the admin book included. More sales
the better. This way, they will get mostly firstimers (repeaters will
download) - and firstimers need manuals.


make money with
SLES, SLED, ...


That would not be affected.


In my guess the current Novell Linux strategy is "the more publicity the 
better". And indeed they give away their good work for nothing currently, 
so there is only a small market for the box. But a huge spreading of the 
box content...

Let's hope with them.

Cheers -e
--
Eberhard Moenkeberg ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Eberhard Moenkeberg]

Hi,

On Tue, 16 May 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Monday 2006-05-15 at 23:49 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:



But... what is the point in producing a box in a way that will have less
sales? I must be dumb, I don't see it.


Reduce costs, for a so thought "not much profit" part.


But if they can make some profit of it, why don't do it? Then there is
prestige. I will not be able to show the box to convince new linuxers...

They could sell it as a book with some software included ;-)


Already the 10.0 box looked like "made in China".
Previous boxes had given a feeling of "made in Germany"...


True... I have a 6.1 version here, that makes 9.3 a poor brother...


I guess they have decided to make some distinct profit NOT.
Must be a part of a higher strategy, and see what all they did lately.
So the cheap box is ok with me.

In Germany today, all the computer magazines add SUSE-10.1 DVDs for no 
additional cost. Linux-User tries to top them all: a special edition 
full of teaching articles, only SUSE-10.1.

This is a much bigger scene than you ever can reach with a luxury box.

I guess if the day has come that Novell is thinking "now the Linux desktop 
has the quality to reach the masses" they may return to "mod" the box up 
again.


Cheers -e
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Monday 2006-05-15 at 23:50 +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:

> > But... what is the point in producing a box in a way that will have less
> > sales? I must be dumb, I don't see it.
> 
> Market share. Spread SUSE Linux, grow the community, 

IMO, they would get more of that with the admin book included. More sales 
the better. This way, they will get mostly firstimers (repeaters will 
download) - and firstimers need manuals.

> make money with
> SLES, SLED, ...

That would not be affected.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos Robinson
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Monday 2006-05-15 at 23:49 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

> > But... what is the point in producing a box in a way that will have less
> > sales? I must be dumb, I don't see it.
> 
> Reduce costs, for a so thought "not much profit" part.

But if they can make some profit of it, why don't do it? Then there is 
prestige. I will not be able to show the box to convince new linuxers...

They could sell it as a book with some software included ;-)

> Already the 10.0 box looked like "made in China".
> Previous boxes had given a feeling of "made in Germany"...

True... I have a 6.1 version here, that makes 9.3 a poor brother...

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos Robinson
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Monday 2006-05-15 at 18:19 +0200, houghi wrote:

...

> > * direct users to the LUGs, most have power users that can 
> > make disks for friends (solution most used here)
> 
> Not realy an option for many people. Best way is to have a friend download
> it for you.

I haven't seen a LUG in my life. As for friends, I'm the technical one of 
my group...


> Still leaves the question if there should be an ISO with sources at all. I
> don't believe so. Some might use one or a few sourcescodes from selected
> programs, but not enough to warrant a full source ISO download.

I agree there. If I want a full copy of the sources, and I have to 
download it, I'd be happy to download the appropiate ftp tree, and create 
a dvd out of it, for backup. There is no need to have a iso image in the 
servers and duplicate the space.

Of course, I suppose somebody could create a jigdo so that the dvd could 
be made if needed :-?  

> The main exception is perhaps the kernel source. Put the in the boxed set
> and people with slow downloads already have that biggest part that they
> might need. People who are willing to download the ISO, also are able to
> download the files as is.

No, because the kernel sources we need are provided as a normal rpm. There 
is another source rpm that is used to create the former one.

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   Carlos Robinson
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Pascal Bleser]

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Carlos E. R. wrote:
> The Monday 2006-05-15 at 16:50 +0200, houghi wrote:
> ...
>>> The decision makers knew that there would be a drop in sales. It was less
>>> then anticipated for 10.0. You not selling the box is not a real thread as
>>> the box is not a money maker for Novell.
>>>
>>> So no excuses are needed. ;-)
> 
> But... what is the point in producing a box in a way that will have less 
> sales? I must be dumb, I don't see it.

Market share. Spread SUSE Linux, grow the community, make money with
SLES, SLED, ...

cheers
- --
  -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
  /\\ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Eberhard Moenkeberg]

Hi,

On Mon, 15 May 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Monday 2006-05-15 at 16:50 +0200, houghi wrote:



...

The decision makers knew that there would be a drop in sales. It was less
then anticipated for 10.0. You not selling the box is not a real thread as
the box is not a money maker for Novell.

So no excuses are needed. ;-)


But... what is the point in producing a box in a way that will have less
sales? I must be dumb, I don't see it.


Reduce costs, for a so thought "not much profit" part.

Already the 10.0 box looked like "made in China".
Previous boxes had given a feeling of "made in Germany"...

Cheers -e
--
Eberhard Moenkeberg ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Monday 2006-05-15 at 16:50 +0200, houghi wrote:

...
> The decision makers knew that there would be a drop in sales. It was less
> then anticipated for 10.0. You not selling the box is not a real thread as
> the box is not a money maker for Novell.
> 
> So no excuses are needed. ;-)

But... what is the point in producing a box in a way that will have less 
sales? I must be dumb, I don't see it.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos Robinson
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Ken Schneider]

On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 18:19 +0200, houghi wrote:
> On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 03:54:01PM +0200, jdd wrote:
> > * as I said, send 1 source dvd for 10 boxes to dealers or at 
> > least brokers. cheap and at hand for the user.
> 
> 1 in 10?  Also these then need to be sold and thus packaged and so on.
> Either you include them, or you don't. Just having then lying around
> people would walk in and use them as coasters.
> 
> > * ask dealers to download the source dvd for a small fee
> 
> That you can always do. Wether they are willing to do so is another
> matter. Also many people irder online.
>  
> > * direct users to the LUGs, most have power users that can 
> > make disks for friends (solution most used here)
> 
> Not realy an option for many people. Best way is to have a friend download
> it for you.
> 
> Still leaves the question if there should be an ISO with sources at all. I
> don't believe so. Some might use one or a few sourcescodes from selected
> programs, but not enough to warrant a full source ISO download.
> 
> The main exception is perhaps the kernel source. Put the in the boxed set
> and people with slow downloads already have that biggest part that they
> might need. People who are willing to download the ISO, also are able to
> download the files as is.
The kernel sources used to compile the kernel is included even in the 5
iso set. I install it as routine because of VMware.

-- 
Ken Schneider
UNIX  since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE  since 1998


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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 06:23:51PM +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Mon, 15 May 2006, houghi wrote:
> 
> >The main exception is perhaps the kernel source. Put the in the boxed set
> >and people with slow downloads already have that biggest part that they
> >might need. People who are willing to download the ISO, also are able to
> >download the files as is.
> 
> The kernel sources ARE part of the box DVDs. I bet even the CDs.

Great. So no issues then. People who have low speed or expensive
connections can buy the boxed set. All others can download.

houghi
-- 
Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es 
ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
und Arbeit,  und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun 
- Johannes Müller-Elmau

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Eberhard Moenkeberg]

Hi,

On Mon, 15 May 2006, houghi wrote:


The main exception is perhaps the kernel source. Put the in the boxed set
and people with slow downloads already have that biggest part that they
might need. People who are willing to download the ISO, also are able to
download the files as is.


The kernel sources ARE part of the box DVDs. I bet even the CDs.

Cheers -e
--
Eberhard Moenkeberg ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 03:54:01PM +0200, jdd wrote:
> * as I said, send 1 source dvd for 10 boxes to dealers or at 
> least brokers. cheap and at hand for the user.

1 in 10?  Also these then need to be sold and thus packaged and so on.
Either you include them, or you don't. Just having then lying around
people would walk in and use them as coasters.

> * ask dealers to download the source dvd for a small fee

That you can always do. Wether they are willing to do so is another
matter. Also many people irder online.
 
> * direct users to the LUGs, most have power users that can 
> make disks for friends (solution most used here)

Not realy an option for many people. Best way is to have a friend download
it for you.

Still leaves the question if there should be an ISO with sources at all. I
don't believe so. Some might use one or a few sourcescodes from selected
programs, but not enough to warrant a full source ISO download.

The main exception is perhaps the kernel source. Put the in the boxed set
and people with slow downloads already have that biggest part that they
might need. People who are willing to download the ISO, also are able to
download the files as is.

Write an extention¹ to makeSUSEdvd (as it standard looks if there is a SUSE
CD) and I will include it. That way you can download all the sources to a
directory, run makeSUSEdvd and have your Sources ISO to do with as you
please.

¹At this moment I personally don't think it is importand enough, so I
won't do it. :-)
houghi
-- 
Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es 
ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
und Arbeit,  und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun 
- Johannes Müller-Elmau

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[jdd]

Per Jessen wrote:

houghi wrote:



On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 02:47:50PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:


I'm not.  I am thinking for instance France, Britain, Scandinavia,
Switzerland, Belgium etc.  I think it's a pretty safe bet that ADSL
is available to perhaps 95% of people in Northern/Central Europe.


That is a bet you are going to loose. For Belgium it is about 75% and
Belgium is one of the highest in the world. Availablity is not the
same as people actually using it.



Belgium's 75% availability is pretty low - even the UK reached 90% about
two years ago.  I did say "available to", _not_ "in use by".  


France is far from this. I have many friends with phone 
modem or ISDN.



but the discussion is worthless.

what is interesting, is solutions. I see many:

* as I said, send 1 source dvd for 10 boxes to dealers or at 
least brokers. cheap and at hand for the user.


* ask dealers to download the source dvd for a small fee

* direct users to the LUGs, most have power users that can 
make disks for friends (solution most used here)



jdd


--
http://www.dodin.net
http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html
http://lucien.dodin.net
http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 05:39:27PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
> Belgium's 75% availability is pretty low - even the UK reached 90% about
> two years ago.  I did say "available to", _not_ "in use by".  

Even if availability would be 100%, that does not make it so that users
are actually using it. You can hardly force people to take ADSL just so
they can download the ISOs more easily.

The fact that Belgium has a 'low 75%' and still is considerd 'high' should
say enough.

So the availability has only indirect impact. And even then 5% is a lot of
people. Remember that to Windows, Linux is 5% and I asume you also don't
want to be ignored.

Furthermore there are plenty of places where high speed connections are
expensive (South Africa among others, I understood).

houghi
-- 
Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es 
ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
und Arbeit,  und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun 
- Johannes Müller-Elmau

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Per Jessen]

houghi wrote:

> On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 02:47:50PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
>> I'm not.  I am thinking for instance France, Britain, Scandinavia,
>> Switzerland, Belgium etc.  I think it's a pretty safe bet that ADSL
>> is available to perhaps 95% of people in Northern/Central Europe.
> 
> That is a bet you are going to loose. For Belgium it is about 75% and
> Belgium is one of the highest in the world. Availablity is not the
> same as people actually using it.

Belgium's 75% availability is pretty low - even the UK reached 90% about
two years ago.  I did say "available to", _not_ "in use by".  


/Per Jessen, Zürich


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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 02:04:45PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> If there is no admin book, I don't have any reason to buy the distro, 
> that's how it is. I can not justify it, I don't have excuses anymore, 
> sorry. A pity.
> 
>  * Install support? I'm not a beginner, the problems I may have are not 
> covered. 
>  * No network? Not anymore, download it.
>  * Admin book? Nop.
> 
> Plonk the box.
> 
> I hope you tell this to your decision makers.

The decision makers knew that there would be a drop in sales. It was less
then anticipated for 10.0. You not selling the box is not a real thread as
the box is not a money maker for Novell.

So no excuses are needed. ;-)

houghi
-- 
Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es 
ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
und Arbeit,  und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun 
- Johannes Müller-Elmau

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 02:47:50PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
> I'm not.  I am thinking for instance France, Britain, Scandinavia,
> Switzerland, Belgium etc.  I think it's a pretty safe bet that ADSL is
> available to perhaps 95% of people in Northern/Central Europe.

That is a bet you are going to loose. For Belgium it is about 75% and
Belgium is one of the highest in the world. Availablity is not the same as
people actually using it.

> > do you think adsl is so spread in china or india? not to speak about
> > africa... 
> 
> Although those countries are populationwise much bigger than e.g. just
> Europe, and the ADSL coverage is undoubtedly small, I doubt if they are
> significant Novell markets. 

So then they are expansion markets.

houghi
-- 
Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es 
ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
und Arbeit,  und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun 
- Johannes Müller-Elmau

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Monday 2006-05-15 at 14:40 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

> > Cable is not viable, they say, although it lies 30 meters from my
> > door.
> 
> You'd probably have to pay for them digging in the cable - that's what
> usually happens around here. 

I was told by a friend in the business they can't, and even more, they 
can't deny service. But they give a thousand excuses and delays till the 
client tires... the truth is they are not interested in low rise areas, 
they want flats and businesses: few infrastructures, high volume traffic, 
high return ratio. That's what the liberalization of telecommunications 
means.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos Robinson
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=x/YH
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Per Jessen]

Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:

> I get this while trying to retrieve it.
> 
> Making FTP connection to ftp.opensuse.org
> Can't Access
>
`ftp://ftp.opensuse.org/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/docu/en/reference_en.pdf'
> Alert!: Unable to access document.

It's there, but not at that URL - try this mirror instead:




/Per Jessen, Zürich


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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Per Jessen]

jdd wrote:

> Per Jessen wrote:
>> houghi wrote:
>> 
>>> In numbers, the amount of people who have dialup is prety large.
>> 
>> In absolute numbers yes, but in relative
> 
> don't think only for your country.  

I'm not.  I am thinking for instance France, Britain, Scandinavia,
Switzerland, Belgium etc.  I think it's a pretty safe bet that ADSL is
available to perhaps 95% of people in Northern/Central Europe.

> do you think adsl is so spread in china or india? not to speak about
> africa... 

Although those countries are populationwise much bigger than e.g. just
Europe, and the ADSL coverage is undoubtedly small, I doubt if they are
significant Novell markets. 


/Per Jessen, Zürich


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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Per Jessen]

Carlos E. R. wrote:

> The Monday 2006-05-15 at 11:59 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
>> In absolute numbers yes, but in relative, I wonder if not most people
>> have or are moving to ADSL?  Many countries have 95% or better
>> coverage, and the cost is now _almost_ negligible.  (the cheapest
>> here is CHF9/month plus CHF2.40/hour).
> 
> That "many" countries means the first world only, and then only cities
> in my part of the first world. They are thinking some kind of radio
> link instead.

I would still maintain many countries have it, but of course you're
right that it doesn't apply everywhere.  5 years ago I was also told
"nope, ADSL won't work where you live", but that changed 1-2 years
later.  We've recently been upped to 5.6Mbit downstream.  

> Cable is not viable, they say, although it lies 30 meters from my
> door.

You'd probably have to pay for them digging in the cable - that's what
usually happens around here. 


/Per Jessen, Zürich


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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Marcus Meissner]

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 06:33:11AM -0600, Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:
> > On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 07:05:19AM -0400, Kenneth Schneider wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 03:00 +0200, Marcus Rueckert wrote:
> > > > On 2006-05-14 19:41:17 -0400, Kenneth Schneider wrote:
> > > > > I guess you have -not- been involved with SUSE for very long. There 
> > > > > used
> > > > > to be -two- books one of which was an admin book which is no longer
> > > > > available. And now there is -no- pdf replacement. What a shame, a very
> > > > > good distro going to the dogs. I can just imagine what the bean 
> > > > > counters
> > > > > were saying:
> > > > mind to see my email address?
> > > Your email address has nothing to do with it. You could have been hired
> > > last year.
> >
> > ftp://ftp.opensuse.org/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/docu/en/reference_en.pdf
> >
> > It is not on the CDs and DVDs, admittedly.
> 
> I get this while trying to retrieve it.
> 
> Making FTP connection to ftp.opensuse.org
> Can't Access
> `ftp://ftp.opensuse.org/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/docu/en/reference_en.pdf'
> Alert!: Unable to access document.

Better use this one ( checked this time ;).

http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/docu/en/reference_en.pdf

Ciao, Marcus

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Boyd Lynn Gerber]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

> On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 07:05:19AM -0400, Kenneth Schneider wrote:
> > On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 03:00 +0200, Marcus Rueckert wrote:
> > > On 2006-05-14 19:41:17 -0400, Kenneth Schneider wrote:
> > > > I guess you have -not- been involved with SUSE for very long. There used
> > > > to be -two- books one of which was an admin book which is no longer
> > > > available. And now there is -no- pdf replacement. What a shame, a very
> > > > good distro going to the dogs. I can just imagine what the bean counters
> > > > were saying:
> > > mind to see my email address?
> > Your email address has nothing to do with it. You could have been hired
> > last year.
>
> ftp://ftp.opensuse.org/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/docu/en/reference_en.pdf
>
> It is not on the CDs and DVDs, admittedly.

I get this while trying to retrieve it.

Making FTP connection to ftp.opensuse.org
Can't Access
`ftp://ftp.opensuse.org/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/docu/en/reference_en.pdf'
Alert!: Unable to access document.


- --
Boyd Gerber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
ZENEZ   1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah  84047
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=JmRI
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Monday 2006-05-15 at 14:11 +0200, Clayton wrote:

> In Canada, my friend's & family are lucky to get 512Kbit (if it's even
> available) - a couple are on 1Mbit connections... they live in the
> city a couple others only have 56k dialup (not even ISDN works
> where they live)... but either way, downloading ISOs is a major
> undertaking, and BitTorrent is either barely tolerated, or simply
> won't work at all (in the case of my parent's satellite internet
> connection... latency is way too high for BitTorrent to work).

My ADSL is 1 Mbit also, in a city in Spain. 20 Mbit is announced, but the 
small print says something about "ask for availability..." meaning it is 
only available in selected parts of the main capitals. And it is not a 
maintained speed (ie, it is a maximum). And cable is not universal here, 
my house is not "viable". Smaller cities, villages, countryside? Forget 
it.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos Robinson

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Clayton]

That "many" countries means the first world only, and then only cities in
my part of the first world. They are thinking some kind of radio link
instead.


You know... it's funny... I have better internet speeds when I'm
visiting friends in Narobi Kenya than I do when I'm visiting my
parents back in Canada.  No really... I get way better internet
connections on my computer in Nairobi than I can hope for in rural
Canada.

I often forget how slow those outside Europe have it - I'm on a 20Mbit
cable connection (yes.. twenty Mbit) here at my house in Europe.  It's
fast to say the least (recently bumped up to compete with the ADSL2
connections that are available where I live).  And downloading ISOs is
easy and fast.

In Canada, my friend's & family are lucky to get 512Kbit (if it's even
available) - a couple are on 1Mbit connections... they live in the
city a couple others only have 56k dialup (not even ISDN works
where they live)... but either way, downloading ISOs is a major
undertaking, and BitTorrent is either barely tolerated, or simply
won't work at all (in the case of my parent's satellite internet
connection... latency is way too high for BitTorrent to work).

C.

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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The Monday 2006-05-15 at 13:12 +0200, Marcus Meissner wrote:

> ftp://ftp.opensuse.org/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/docu/en/reference_en.pdf
> 
> It is not on the CDs and DVDs, admittedly.

That is no substitute for the magnificent paper book (and in local 
languages) you distributed previously, I'm afraid.

If there is no admin book, I don't have any reason to buy the distro, 
that's how it is. I can not justify it, I don't have excuses anymore, 
sorry. A pity.

 * Install support? I'm not a beginner, the problems I may have are not 
covered. 
 * No network? Not anymore, download it.
 * Admin book? Nop.

Plonk the box.

I hope you tell this to your decision makers.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos Robinson
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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The Monday 2006-05-15 at 11:59 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

> houghi wrote:
> 
> > In numbers, the amount of people who have dialup is prety large.  
> 
> In absolute numbers yes, but in relative, I wonder if not most people
> have or are moving to ADSL?  Many countries have 95% or better
> coverage, and the cost is now _almost_ negligible.  (the cheapest here
> is CHF9/month plus CHF2.40/hour). 

That "many" countries means the first world only, and then only cities in 
my part of the first world. They are thinking some kind of radio link 
instead.

My adsl is about 35 Eur/month (still waiting to know the real figure). 
Dialup can depend, but it can be either ~1.6 cents/per minute, or a night 
flat rate about 20..30 Eur/month, plus the phone line. That's certainly 
not negligible here with our salaries.

Cable is not viable, they say, although it lies 30 meters from my door.

- -- 
Cheers.
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Eberhard Moenkeberg]

Hi,

On Mon, 15 May 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Monday 2006-05-15 at 01:14 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:



So tell your non-ADSL friends that part of my posting that you didn't quote
here.


meaning?


Just to ask SUSE for a hard medium.
But you better would have read my posting again.

Cheers -e
--
Eberhard Moenkeberg ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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The Monday 2006-05-15 at 01:14 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

> So tell your non-ADSL friends that part of my posting that you didn't quote
> here.

meaning?

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos Robinson

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Marcus Meissner]

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 07:05:19AM -0400, Kenneth Schneider wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 03:00 +0200, Marcus Rueckert wrote:
> > On 2006-05-14 19:41:17 -0400, Kenneth Schneider wrote:
> > > I guess you have -not- been involved with SUSE for very long. There used
> > > to be -two- books one of which was an admin book which is no longer
> > > available. And now there is -no- pdf replacement. What a shame, a very
> > > good distro going to the dogs. I can just imagine what the bean counters
> > > were saying:
> > 
> > mind to see my email address?
> > 
> Your email address has nothing to do with it. You could have been hired
> last year.
> 
> Apologies, going to the dogs is a bit strong. The distro is not going to
> the dogs but some of the changes have not been for the better. I have
> used SuSE since the fall of 1998 and it has been better with each
> release. But some of the things that have made it so good (and why I
> choose it) are not good. The manuals -are- needed. Have you ever tried
> to research a problem on a server that will not boot when the only place
> for that research is the pdf manual that is on the server that will not
> boot?

ftp://ftp.opensuse.org/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/docu/en/reference_en.pdf

It is not on the CDs and DVDs, admittedly.

Ciao, Marcus

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Kenneth Schneider]

On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 03:00 +0200, Marcus Rueckert wrote:
> On 2006-05-14 19:41:17 -0400, Kenneth Schneider wrote:
> > I guess you have -not- been involved with SUSE for very long. There used
> > to be -two- books one of which was an admin book which is no longer
> > available. And now there is -no- pdf replacement. What a shame, a very
> > good distro going to the dogs. I can just imagine what the bean counters
> > were saying:
> 
> mind to see my email address?
> 
Your email address has nothing to do with it. You could have been hired
last year.

Apologies, going to the dogs is a bit strong. The distro is not going to
the dogs but some of the changes have not been for the better. I have
used SuSE since the fall of 1998 and it has been better with each
release. But some of the things that have made it so good (and why I
choose it) are not good. The manuals -are- needed. Have you ever tried
to research a problem on a server that will not boot when the only place
for that research is the pdf manual that is on the server that will not
boot?

-- 
Ken Schneider
UNIX  since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE  since 1998


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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[jdd]

Per Jessen wrote:
> houghi wrote:
> 
>> In numbers, the amount of people who have dialup is prety large.  
> 
> In absolute numbers yes, but in relative

don't think only for your country. do you think adsl is so
spread in china or india? not to speak about africa...


but AFAIK the source dvd is available by mail and this could
be sufficient

may be Novell could send a small quantity of such dvd to the
dealers (say, one for ten boxes) to make them available
immédiatly.

the cost could be small

jdd

-- 
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Eberhard Moenkeberg]

Hi,

On Mon, 15 May 2006, Per Jessen wrote:


For download, I think it makes perfect sense to keep both an ISO and the
individual files.


For the sources, it is perfectly sufficient to have the files plus a 
script like makesusedvd.

One should be able to run a script if he wants to work with an SRPM.

Holding such a lot of stuff double is wasting space and cache performance 
at the mirrors.


Cheers -e
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Eberhard Moenkeberg ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Per Jessen]

houghi wrote:

> In numbers, the amount of people who have dialup is prety large.  

In absolute numbers yes, but in relative, I wonder if not most people
have or are moving to ADSL?  Many countries have 95% or better
coverage, and the cost is now _almost_ negligible.  (the cheapest here
is CHF9/month plus CHF2.40/hour). 

> I hope we don't go the way some websites think: but 90% uses IE, so we
> don't chane it. ;-)

Yeah ...  though I'm not sure it makes much commercial sense to produce
a source DVD for the probably very few that 1) have a need and 2) are
still on e.g. 28.8K analog dial-up. 

> As it is just for those who can not download large files, putting it
> on the DVD-9 is enough. No reason to put it on a downloadable ISO as
> that would beat the purpose. 

For download, I think it makes perfect sense to keep both an ISO and the
individual files.  


/Per Jessen, Zürich


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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 11:00:09AM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
> Hmm, true.  I guess there's not much one can do to help someone with
> that kind of connection - and for the majority of the SUSE-market, it
> is surely a rare exception too?

In numbers, the amount of people who have dialup is prety large. I hope we
don't go the way some websites think: but 90% uses IE, so we don't chane
it. ;-)

Wether it is a reason to have a sources ISO or not, I do not know. Kernel
sources is perhaps the most needed by users. Other sources will be a lot
smaller and can be downloaded.

As it is just for those who can not download large files, putting it on 
the DVD-9 is enough. No reason to put it on a downloadable ISO as that
would beat the purpose. Not sure if there still is enough room.

houghi
-- 
Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es 
ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
und Arbeit,  und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun 
- Johannes Müller-Elmau

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Per Jessen]

houghi wrote:

> On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 10:25:56AM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
>> > Many don't have the
>> > bandwidth to download a large iso.
>> 
>> That's partially what bittorrent is there for.
> 
> Uhm, no. Say I have a 28.8K modem connection. Wether I download with
> FTP or Torrent would hardly make a difference.

Hmm, true.  I guess there's not much one can do to help someone with
that kind of connection - and for the majority of the SUSE-market, it
is surely a rare exception too? 


/Per Jessen, Zürich


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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 10:25:56AM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
> > Many don't have the
> > bandwidth to download a large iso.  
> 
> That's partially what bittorrent is there for. 

Uhm, no. Say I have a 28.8K modem connection. Wether I download with FTP
or Torrent would hardly make a difference.

houghi
-- 
Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es 
ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
und Arbeit,  und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun 
- Johannes Müller-Elmau

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Per Jessen]

BandiPat wrote:

> We were all aware of that Eberhard, since we all complained about that
> situation also.  Many of us had hoped that would change after they got
> the bugs worked out of resale boxes.  There are many that still desire
> a sources DVD to be included, but maybe SuSE didn't hear our cries. 

I'm curious - I rarely use any of the sources, except maybe the
SUSE-kernel.  Why is it important to have all of them shipped with the
boxed product?  

> Also for 10.0, a sources DVD iso was provided on the mirrors, which
> for those of us with broadband didn't complain.  Many don't have the
> bandwidth to download a large iso.  

That's partially what bittorrent is there for. 

> According to the GPL you want to mention, they, Novell/SuSE, have to
> make the sources available.  I would hope it would come in the package
> we buy and if not, made  available either by downloading 

I thought they did do so too.  I'm just now retrieving the inst-source
tree from a mirror. 



/Per Jessen, Zürich


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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Marcus Rueckert]

On 2006-05-14 19:41:17 -0400, Kenneth Schneider wrote:
> I guess you have -not- been involved with SUSE for very long. There used
> to be -two- books one of which was an admin book which is no longer
> available. And now there is -no- pdf replacement. What a shame, a very
> good distro going to the dogs. I can just imagine what the bean counters
> were saying:

mind to see my email address?

darix

-- 
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  openSUSE is good for you
  www.opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Sun, May 14, 2006 at 07:41:17PM -0400, Kenneth Schneider wrote:
> I can just imagine what the bean counters
> were saying:
> 
> "If we stop shipping the admin book and the sources DVD no one will
> notice and we can save $X.00 per box"
> 
> Well many people have noticed and they also noticed the price drop as
> well. 

So the price savings have gone to the endusers. The total income of SUSE
has decreased, although not as much as expected by Novell. They knew that
there would be a drop in sales. They knew there would be a drop in income.

I think it is amazing that they still make the boxes and I doubt that it
is any real revenue for them. If you want a book, just wait for the SUSE
Linux 10.1 Bible.

After all the good things Novell has done saying that it is going to the
dogs is, I think, over the top. Yes, it is a pity that the manuals are
gone, now can we move on please?

houghi
-- 
Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es 
ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
und Arbeit,  und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun 
- Johannes Müller-Elmau

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[houghi]

On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 12:39:46AM +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
> The silent death of the admin guide was a bad decision in my mind too.
> 
> Up to 9.3, I could advise interested people "just buy one SUSE box, and 
> you have all you need to become a server admin - experiences with docs".

I did the same. Now I say: just download it or ask somebody for a copy.
I would expect two versions of SUSE. One boxed with the manuals in dead
trees and one (e.g only over Internet order) with just the CD, like
http://dvd-iso.de/product_info.php/products_id/69/product/suse-linux-10.1-dvd.html/XTCsid/537768fb4f87fe31b85e8b42f67f0aca
or http://tinyurl.com/pjttk

> >Also for 10.0, a sources DVD iso was provided on the mirrors, which for
> >those of us with broadband didn't complain.  Many don't have the
> >bandwidth to download a large iso.
> 
> Many? You are kidding.
> Most of those "manies" at least have a friend with a DSL connection.

Also how many of the many actually use ALL of those sources? That said,
some people need the kernel sources. I think those could be included in
the box. Not sure if there is enough plave on the DVD-9.


> The sources are already published at the servers:
> 
> /pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/suse/src/
> /pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/non-oss-inst-source/suse/src/
> 
> makesusedvd can be used to make an ISO out of it.
> Please nobody tell me he needs the sources but is not able to run 
> makesusedvd.

Never tried it, so no idea what the result will be.
 
> Putting the sources a second time there as an ISO image would neglect the 
> mirror admins' interest in efficiency (space and cache).

How about a jigdo file?

> It is a totally different question if SUSE would ship hard media on 
> request or not.
> I fully accept their "cost calculation" decision not to put a mostly never 
> used sources disk into the box, and you should ask them for a hard copy if 
> you can't use the servers.
> I bet they will ship one, and the SUSE cost calculators will include the 
> needed manpower into their next revision.
> But I bet it already was the right decision. ;-))



houghi
-- 
Nutze die Zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste, was wir haben, denn es 
ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Werk
und Arbeit,  und das Sein wichtiger als das Tun 
- Johannes Müller-Elmau

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Eberhard Moenkeberg]

Hi,

On Mon, 15 May 2006, Marcus Rueckert wrote:

On 2006-05-15 01:18:39 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:



I bet you have never looked into it. ;-))
The contents of the formerly called "admin guide" are missing. No book, no
more PDF. That is really bad. The PDF would be enough...


the admin guide is part of the suselinux-manual package.
and the pdf is at suse/noarch/suselinux-manual_en-pdf-10.1-19.noarch.rpm.
you will find it in the ftp tree. i think you have that somewhere. ;)


In a very shrinked manner...


hope that helps


Not really.

Cheers -e
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Eberhard Moenkeberg ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Kenneth Schneider]

On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 01:12 +0200, Marcus Rueckert wrote:
> On 2006-05-15 01:07:40 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > If the 10.1 box doesn't have the admin book, I think I'm not buying it. I 
> > intended to, but if there is no book, I won't :-(
> > 
> > No sources, no book... what on earth do I get that I can't download 
> > myself?
> 
> there is a printed book in the box.
> 

I guess you have -not- been involved with SUSE for very long. There used
to be -two- books one of which was an admin book which is no longer
available. And now there is -no- pdf replacement. What a shame, a very
good distro going to the dogs. I can just imagine what the bean counters
were saying:

"If we stop shipping the admin book and the sources DVD no one will
notice and we can save $X.00 per box"

Well many people have noticed and they also noticed the price drop as
well. If Novell had kept the price the same and included the admin book
and the sources DVD --many-- more people would be much happier and would
be buying the distro instead of just downloading the distro.

-- 
Ken Schneider
UNIX  since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE  since 1998


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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Marcus Rueckert]

On 2006-05-15 01:18:39 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
> I bet you have never looked into it. ;-))
> The contents of the formerly called "admin guide" are missing. No book, no 
> more PDF. That is really bad. The PDF would be enough...

the admin guide is part of the suselinux-manual package.
and the pdf is at suse/noarch/suselinux-manual_en-pdf-10.1-19.noarch.rpm.
you will find it in the ftp tree. i think you have that somewhere. ;)

hope that helps

darix

-- 
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  openSUSE is good for you
  www.opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Eberhard Moenkeberg]

Hi,

On Mon, 15 May 2006, Marcus Rueckert wrote:

On 2006-05-15 01:07:40 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:



If the 10.1 box doesn't have the admin book, I think I'm not buying it. I
intended to, but if there is no book, I won't :-(

No sources, no book... what on earth do I get that I can't download
myself?


there is a printed book in the box.


I bet you have never looked into it. ;-))
The contents of the formerly called "admin guide" are missing. No book, no 
more PDF. That is really bad. The PDF would be enough...


Cheers -e
--
Eberhard Moenkeberg ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Eberhard Moenkeberg]

Hi,

On Mon, 15 May 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Monday 2006-05-15 at 00:39 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

On Sun, 14 May 2006, BandiPat wrote:

...


We were all aware of that Eberhard, since we all complained about that
situation also.  Many of us had hoped that would change after they got
the bugs worked out of resale boxes.  There are many that still desire
a sources DVD to be included, but maybe SuSE didn't hear our cries.  It
sounds as if they may not have heard the pleas for a decent manual
(Admin as before Novell) either.


The silent death of the admin guide was a bad decision in my mind too.

Up to 9.3, I could advise interested people "just buy one SUSE box, and you
have all you need to become a server admin - experiences with docs".


If the 10.1 box doesn't have the admin book, I think I'm not buying it. I
intended to, but if there is no book, I won't :-(

No sources, no book... what on earth do I get that I can't download
myself?



Also for 10.0, a sources DVD iso was provided on the mirrors, which for
those of us with broadband didn't complain.  Many don't have the
bandwidth to download a large iso.


Many? You are kidding.
Most of those "manies" at least have a friend with a DSL connection.


Where? I have none of those friends. As a matter of fact, now that I do
have ADSL, a friend of mine makes 200 Km to get the software I download
for him...

Not everybody lives in the internet era. Not everybody is so lucky.


So tell your non-ADSL friends that part of my posting that you didn't 
quote here.


Cheers -e
--
Eberhard Moenkeberg ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Marcus Rueckert]

On 2006-05-15 01:07:40 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> If the 10.1 box doesn't have the admin book, I think I'm not buying it. I 
> intended to, but if there is no book, I won't :-(
> 
> No sources, no book... what on earth do I get that I can't download 
> myself?

there is a printed book in the box.

darix

-- 
  openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux
  openSUSE is good for you
  www.opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


The Monday 2006-05-15 at 00:39 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

> On Sun, 14 May 2006, BandiPat wrote:
...

> > We were all aware of that Eberhard, since we all complained about that
> > situation also.  Many of us had hoped that would change after they got
> > the bugs worked out of resale boxes.  There are many that still desire
> > a sources DVD to be included, but maybe SuSE didn't hear our cries.  It
> > sounds as if they may not have heard the pleas for a decent manual
> > (Admin as before Novell) either.
> 
> The silent death of the admin guide was a bad decision in my mind too.
> 
> Up to 9.3, I could advise interested people "just buy one SUSE box, and you
> have all you need to become a server admin - experiences with docs".

If the 10.1 box doesn't have the admin book, I think I'm not buying it. I 
intended to, but if there is no book, I won't :-(

No sources, no book... what on earth do I get that I can't download 
myself?


> > Also for 10.0, a sources DVD iso was provided on the mirrors, which for
> > those of us with broadband didn't complain.  Many don't have the
> > bandwidth to download a large iso.
> 
> Many? You are kidding.
> Most of those "manies" at least have a friend with a DSL connection.

Where? I have none of those friends. As a matter of fact, now that I do 
have ADSL, a friend of mine makes 200 Km to get the software I download 
for him...

Not everybody lives in the internet era. Not everybody is so lucky.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos Robinson
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76

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1+GiGciC6G0nKQqb7YKMDyk=
=X9JW
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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Eberhard Moenkeberg]

Hi,

On Sun, 14 May 2006, BandiPat wrote:

On Sunday 14 May 2006 15:19, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

On Sun, 14 May 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Sunday 2006-05-14 at 01:35 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:



Of course there will not be an additional sources DVD within the
box. It would be wasted material and manpower for 99% of the
buyers.

You HAVE GOT the sources in sense of the GPL, don't you?


Quite a number of the people that buy the set do so because they
don't have the network to download it. That has been my reason for
many years.


The 10.0 box did not contain a sources CD or DVD.



We were all aware of that Eberhard, since we all complained about that
situation also.  Many of us had hoped that would change after they got
the bugs worked out of resale boxes.  There are many that still desire
a sources DVD to be included, but maybe SuSE didn't hear our cries.  It
sounds as if they may not have heard the pleas for a decent manual
(Admin as before Novell) either.


The silent death of the admin guide was a bad decision in my mind too.

Up to 9.3, I could advise interested people "just buy one SUSE box, and 
you have all you need to become a server admin - experiences with docs".



Also for 10.0, a sources DVD iso was provided on the mirrors, which for
those of us with broadband didn't complain.  Many don't have the
bandwidth to download a large iso.


Many? You are kidding.
Most of those "manies" at least have a friend with a DSL connection.

According to the GPL you want to mention, they, Novell/SuSE, have to 
make the sources available.


They already HAVE MADE them available. Before any box arrives...

I would hope it would come in the package we buy and if not, made 
available either by downloading or to purchase for the cost of the media 
directly from Novell/SUSE!  This is not just the sources for the 
OpenSuse stuff, as you pointed out earlier, that's not everything that 
is on the purchased DVD.


The sources are published. God damn, see that!


Not asking for the impossible, just a bit of cooperation from Novell in
getting our monies worth from the package we purchase.


The sources are already published at the servers:

/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/suse/src/
/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/non-oss-inst-source/suse/src/

makesusedvd can be used to make an ISO out of it.
Please nobody tell me he needs the sources but is not able to run 
makesusedvd.


Putting the sources a second time there as an ISO image would neglect the 
mirror admins' interest in efficiency (space and cache).


It is a totally different question if SUSE would ship hard media on 
request or not.
I fully accept their "cost calculation" decision not to put a mostly never 
used sources disk into the box, and you should ask them for a hard copy if 
you can't use the servers.
I bet they will ship one, and the SUSE cost calculators will include the 
needed manpower into their next revision.

But I bet it already was the right decision. ;-))

Cheers -e
--
Eberhard Moenkeberg ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[BandiPat]

On Sunday 14 May 2006 15:19, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Sun, 14 May 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > The Sunday 2006-05-14 at 01:35 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
> >> Of course there will not be an additional sources DVD within the
> >> box. It would be wasted material and manpower for 99% of the
> >> buyers.
> >>
> >> You HAVE GOT the sources in sense of the GPL, don't you?
> >
> > Quite a number of the people that buy the set do so because they
> > don't have the network to download it. That has been my reason for
> > many years.
>
> The 10.0 box did not contain a sources CD or DVD.
>
> Cheers -e
=

We were all aware of that Eberhard, since we all complained about that 
situation also.  Many of us had hoped that would change after they got 
the bugs worked out of resale boxes.  There are many that still desire 
a sources DVD to be included, but maybe SuSE didn't hear our cries.  It 
sounds as if they may not have heard the pleas for a decent manual 
(Admin as before Novell) either.  

Also for 10.0, a sources DVD iso was provided on the mirrors, which for 
those of us with broadband didn't complain.  Many don't have the 
bandwidth to download a large iso.  According to the GPL you want to 
mention, they, Novell/SuSE, have to make the sources available.  I 
would hope it would come in the package we buy and if not, made 
available either by downloading or to purchase for the cost of the 
media directly from Novell/SUSE!  This is not just the sources for the 
OpenSuse stuff, as you pointed out earlier, that's not everything that 
is on the purchased DVD.

Not asking for the impossible, just a bit of cooperation from Novell in 
getting our monies worth from the package we purchase.

regards,
Lee

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Eberhard Moenkeberg]

Hi,

On Sun, 14 May 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Sunday 2006-05-14 at 01:35 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:



Of course there will not be an additional sources DVD within the box.
It would be wasted material and manpower for 99% of the buyers.

You HAVE GOT the sources in sense of the GPL, don't you?


Quite a number of the people that buy the set do so because they don't
have the network to download it. That has been my reason for many years.


The 10.0 box did not contain a sources CD or DVD.

Cheers -e
--
Eberhard Moenkeberg ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Carlos E. R.]

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The Sunday 2006-05-14 at 01:35 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

> Of course there will not be an additional sources DVD within the box.
> It would be wasted material and manpower for 99% of the buyers.
> 
> You HAVE GOT the sources in sense of the GPL, don't you?

Quite a number of the people that buy the set do so because they don't 
have the network to download it. That has been my reason for many years.

- -- 
Cheers,
   Carlos Robinson

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Eberhard Moenkeberg]

Hi,

On Sat, 13 May 2006, BandiPat wrote:

On Saturday 13 May 2006 19:14, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

On Sun, 14 May 2006, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:



Aren't the sources directories on the mirrors enough?

/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/suse/src/
/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/non-oss-inst-source/suse/src/

Do you really need them blowed into the ass?


I am very sorry for this. Excuse me please.
To express it correctly, it should read "blown" into your ass.



Well, no matter how you want to express yourself, it still sounds rude
and it doesn't answer my questions, but I'll ask again to clarify.
Will there be a sources DVD in the boxed package as in the past?  Will
there be a complete DVD iso of the sources to download if not, as it
was with 10.0?


Of course there will not be an additional sources DVD within the box.
It would be wasted material and manpower for 99% of the buyers.

You HAVE GOT the sources in sense of the GPL, don't you?

Cheers -e
--
Eberhard Moenkeberg ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[BandiPat]

On Saturday 13 May 2006 19:14, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Sun, 14 May 2006, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
> > Aren't the sources directories on the mirrors enough?
> >
> > /pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/suse/src/
> > /pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/non-oss-inst-source/suse/src/
> >
> > Do you really need them blowed into the ass?
>
> I am very sorry for this. Excuse me please.
> To express it correctly, it should read "blown" into your ass.
>
> Cheers -e
=

Well, no matter how you want to express yourself, it still sounds rude 
and it doesn't answer my questions, but I'll ask again to clarify.  
Will there be a sources DVD in the boxed package as in the past?  Will 
there be a complete DVD iso of the sources to download if not, as it 
was with 10.0?

thanks & have a nice day

Lee

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Eberhard Moenkeberg]

Hi,

On Sun, 14 May 2006, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:


Aren't the sources directories on the mirrors enough?

/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/suse/src/
/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/non-oss-inst-source/suse/src/

Do you really need them blowed into the ass?


I am very sorry for this. Excuse me please.
To express it correctly, it should read "blown" into your ass.

Cheers -e
--
Eberhard Moenkeberg ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED])

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Re: [opensuse] Sources iso

[Eberhard Moenkeberg]

Hi,

On Sat, 13 May 2006, BandiPat wrote:


Sounds like 10.1 is getting a good response from everyone and the
mirrors are overloaded with downloaders.  Reports I've seen, thus far,
seem to indicate the nice job 10.0 was, has just gotten better with
10.1 release.  Did we have any doubts?  ;o)

Anyway, enough of the accolades!  Will the sources DVD be included in
the boxed package this time or will it continue to be a downloadable
iso?  If it is again to be downloaded, can you say when it might be
available to those of us that want it?


Aren't the sources directories on the mirrors enough?

/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/inst-source/suse/src/
/pub/opensuse/distribution/SL-10.1/non-oss-inst-source/suse/src/

Do you really need them blowed into the ass?

Cheers -e
--
Eberhard Moenkeberg ([EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED])

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