Re: On large programming teams [RE: A Swedish Idea]
- Original Message - From: Frank LaRosa [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 11:45 PM Subject: Re: On large programming teams [RE: A Swedish Idea] Adding more programmers to a product early in its development cycle can pay off. You have to add them early enough to account for the learning curve, which slows down the project for a while as the new programmers learn and the old programmers take time to teach them. The mistake most organizations make is adding more programmers after the project is overdue without taking into account the learning curve. Good managers know this and account for it, and bad managers don't realize that this is an expense that can really add up. Turnover is VERY expensive. It becomes easier if your codebase is well architected, using common design patterns, and you have a well documented system (complete list of features, clear requirements list, functional specs, etc), but there still is the problem of learning how things are done at a company. This becomes even more critical on small teams. Unfortunately there are more bad managers out there than good ones (Peter Principle - in a hierarchically structured administration, people tend to be promoted up to their level of incompetence. ). Unfortunately there are more poorly architected systems out there than good ones. All we can do is work with what we are given, and remeber that if the place sucks, you can leave. Even in this market, it's not that difficult to go out and find a new job that will make you happy, and will probably even pay more, bunches more (just remember, if you don't ask for more, you won't get it). The best way to manage a late project is to cut the project's scope. The next best way is to extend the due date. The worst thing to do is demand more programming in less time, because this serves to reduce the quality of the programming. Agreed. But even worse is demanding more programming, and expanding the project scope :) Seriously though, long hours are the spawn of satan. It's ok for a while if you NEED to crunch down and get something done, but as a way of life it sucks. You will be much happier and much more productive if you are able to get out and enjoy life, and aren't having to deal with your PHB hovering over you, or have to sit in meetings for hours because somebody likes to hear themself talk. Sorry I got a little off topic for Orion-Interest, but I was on a roll ;-)~ Noah Nordrum = - Original Message - From: Frank Eggink [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 7:01 AM Subject: On large programming teams [RE: A Swedish Idea] The following is one of the classic readings on programming at large. 25 years old and I can still recommend it: The Mythical Man-Month from F.P. Brooks jr. Yes, it's even 26 years old and talks about OS/360, some odd system which is now out performed by your 100$ marketvalue Pentium I machine, but programming is done by humans which haven't much changed over the last 25 years. On the experience I have had so far with large projects I can only agree with him. Changing one of his 'laws' slightly: Adding more programmers to a product makes the product worse. So far I have not found evidence against this law ;-) FE On Thursday, April 19, 2001 3:06 PM, Jay Armstrong [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: Generally, I agree with the comment about Micro$oft quality of code, though I've seen some pretty horrible code from outside the US, too. :) Bill Gates may be from the US, but Micro$oft employees come from all over the world. Visit Redmond, WA, USA and you'll see for yourself. At 09:50 AM 4/19/01 +0200, you wrote: And Micro$oft programmers are from...? I suppose that the country they're from produce the shittiest code of em all :) Johan - Original Message - From: Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge
RE: On large programming teams [RE: A Swedish Idea]
Yes, and the pun is that you get something after one month, but it is not a baby you would like to have. On Saturday, April 21, 2001 4:13 PM, Kemp Randy-W18971 [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: Yes! A wonderful book I read many years ago. There used to be a saying I heard, which management practices universally. If a woman can produce a baby in nine months, then nine women can produce a baby in one month. The only problem with Gates is that he has no real competition. Linux is probably the closest, and they don't really have a cutting share of Bill's market. -Original Message- From: Frank Eggink To: Orion-Interest Sent: 4/21/01 7:01 AM Subject: On large programming teams [RE: A Swedish Idea] The following is one of the classic readings on programming at large. 25 years old and I can still recommend it: The Mythical Man-Month from F.P. Brooks jr. Yes, it's even 26 years old and talks about OS/360, some odd system which is now out performed by your 100$ marketvalue Pentium I machine, but programming is done by humans which haven't much changed over the last 25 years. On the experience I have had so far with large projects I can only agree with him. Changing one of his 'laws' slightly: Adding more programmers to a product makes the product worse. So far I have not found evidence against this law ;-) FE On Thursday, April 19, 2001 3:06 PM, Jay Armstrong [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: Generally, I agree with the comment about Micro$oft quality of code, though I've seen some pretty horrible code from outside the US, too. :) Bill Gates may be from the US, but Micro$oft employees come from all over the world. Visit Redmond, WA, USA and you'll see for yourself. At 09:50 AM 4/19/01 +0200, you wrote: And Micro$oft programmers are from...? I suppose that the country they're from produce the shittiest code of em all :) Johan - Original Message - From: Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
Re: On large programming teams [RE: A Swedish Idea]
Adding more programmers to a product early in its development cycle can pay off. You have to add them early enough to account for the learning curve, which slows down the project for a while as the new programmers learn and the old programmers take time to teach them. The mistake most organizations make is adding more programmers after the project is overdue without taking into account the learning curve. The best way to manage a late project is to cut the project's scope. The next best way is to extend the due date. The worst thing to do is demand more programming in less time, because this serves to reduce the quality of the programming. - Original Message - From: Frank Eggink [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 7:01 AM Subject: On large programming teams [RE: A Swedish Idea] The following is one of the classic readings on programming at large. 25 years old and I can still recommend it: The Mythical Man-Month from F.P. Brooks jr. Yes, it's even 26 years old and talks about OS/360, some odd system which is now out performed by your 100$ marketvalue Pentium I machine, but programming is done by humans which haven't much changed over the last 25 years. On the experience I have had so far with large projects I can only agree with him. Changing one of his 'laws' slightly: Adding more programmers to a product makes the product worse. So far I have not found evidence against this law ;-) FE On Thursday, April 19, 2001 3:06 PM, Jay Armstrong [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: Generally, I agree with the comment about Micro$oft quality of code, though I've seen some pretty horrible code from outside the US, too. :) Bill Gates may be from the US, but Micro$oft employees come from all over the world. Visit Redmond, WA, USA and you'll see for yourself. At 09:50 AM 4/19/01 +0200, you wrote: And Micro$oft programmers are from...? I suppose that the country they're from produce the shittiest code of em all :) Johan - Original Message - From: Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
On large programming teams [RE: A Swedish Idea]
The following is one of the classic readings on programming at large. 25 years old and I can still recommend it: "The Mythical Man-Month" from F.P. Brooks jr. Yes, it's even 26 years old and talks about OS/360, some odd system which is now out performed by your 100$ marketvalue Pentium I machine, but programming is done by humans which haven't much changed over the last 25 years. On the experience I have had so far with large projects I can only agree with him. Changing one of his 'laws' slightly: "Adding more programmers to a product makes the product worse". So far I have not found evidence against this law ;-) FE On Thursday, April 19, 2001 3:06 PM, Jay Armstrong [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: Generally, I agree with the comment about Micro$oft quality of code, though I've seen some pretty horrible code from outside the US, too. :) Bill Gates may be from the US, but Micro$oft employees come from all over the world. Visit Redmond, WA, USA and you'll see for yourself. At 09:50 AM 4/19/01 +0200, you wrote: And Micro$oft programmers are from...? I suppose that the country they're from produce the shittiest code of em all :) Johan - Original Message - From: "Joseph B. Ottinger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
RE: On large programming teams [RE: A Swedish Idea]
Yes! A wonderful book I read many years ago. There used to be a saying I heard, which management practices universally. If a woman can produce a baby in nine months, then nine women can produce a baby in one month. The only problem with Gates is that he has no real competition. Linux is probably the closest, and they don't really have a cutting share of Bill's market. -Original Message- From: Frank Eggink To: Orion-Interest Sent: 4/21/01 7:01 AM Subject: On large programming teams [RE: A Swedish Idea] The following is one of the classic readings on programming at large. 25 years old and I can still recommend it: "The Mythical Man-Month" from F.P. Brooks jr. Yes, it's even 26 years old and talks about OS/360, some odd system which is now out performed by your 100$ marketvalue Pentium I machine, but programming is done by humans which haven't much changed over the last 25 years. On the experience I have had so far with large projects I can only agree with him. Changing one of his 'laws' slightly: "Adding more programmers to a product makes the product worse". So far I have not found evidence against this law ;-) FE On Thursday, April 19, 2001 3:06 PM, Jay Armstrong [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: Generally, I agree with the comment about Micro$oft quality of code, though I've seen some pretty horrible code from outside the US, too. :) Bill Gates may be from the US, but Micro$oft employees come from all over the world. Visit Redmond, WA, USA and you'll see for yourself. At 09:50 AM 4/19/01 +0200, you wrote: And Micro$oft programmers are from...? I suppose that the country they're from produce the shittiest code of em all :) Johan - Original Message - From: "Joseph B. Ottinger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
Re: A Swedish Idea
Hi, I agree with Frank but the truth is that Orion is the "best" J2EE server in terms of pricing and performance; that's why we're all here trying to chart it's future. If it was easy to find an alternative (one with all of Orion's advantages) many of us would have gotten off this mailing list. Paul From: "Frank LaRosa" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 00:52:23 -0500 What's the difference? We choose to write J2EE applications because J2EE is a community standard rather than a proprietary API. If Orion goes under, all it takes is a few new config files to deploy your app on another server. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 4:17 PM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea God forbids, what if one of them got into car accident, would there still be Orion. _ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Re: A Swedish Idea
Just for the sake of completeness, let's all chip in for a car to see what happens in this circumstance. Maybe we can get rid of ALL of them at once, just to see if Orion goes away THEN. Then, for the sake of yet more completeness, let's try to somehow legally eradicate all of BEA's employees, too, just to see if WebLogic disappears when its company goes away. If, in fact, employees happen to be critical to a company's survival, then we MAY have just found the key to the dot com failure model! "If you fire all your employees, your company goes away!" On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 05:17:30PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: God forbids, what if one of them got into car accident, would there still be Orion. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
RE: A Swedish Idea
Yes, but it does. It provides comic relief. One tread quest asked what happens if Orion when under. No problem. Eventually Jboss and Enhydra will get there. And no, they really don't compete with Orion. There's enough of the pie to go around, and I want them all to succeed, and get the big overpriced servers a run for the money. Should Mysql and Orion talk? Does it need to be formal? It could go something like this via the phone. Mysql: We should talk, no? Maybe get together for a brew or go ice fishing? Orion: Sounds good, no? A tourist stopped by, and asked what can we do in Sweden. I told him to watch the moose dance on the ice. Mysql: They liked it, no? Orion: Couldn't tell. They said the moose fell all over his own feet. The tourist went on a Wednesday. Mysql: No wonder. You should have them go on weekends. Weekdays are amateur nights. -Original Message- From: David Kinnvall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 2:32 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea They never get there about as much as this thread in its current shape provides any value whatsoever to Orion users. IMHO. /David - Original Message - From: "Hani Suleiman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 7:08 PM Subject: RE: A Swedish Idea Yes, and like many turtles, they never get there. Believing in fairy tales is not a good basis for conducting business. The turtle and rabbit story is a way to tell average children 'yes, you might be stupid and slow, but you should keep trying'. I don't think you should take it too seriously. Hani
Re: A Swedish Idea
;-) Forgot the funny side of it. It has been a long week. /David - Original Message - From: "Kemp Randy-W18971" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 2:53 PM Subject: RE: A Swedish Idea Yes, but it does. It provides comic relief. One tread quest asked what happens if Orion when under. No problem. Eventually Jboss and Enhydra will get there. And no, they really don't compete with Orion. There's enough of the pie to go around, and I want them all to succeed, and get the big overpriced servers a run for the money. Should Mysql and Orion talk? Does it need to be formal? It could go something like this via the phone. Mysql: We should talk, no? Maybe get together for a brew or go ice fishing? Orion: Sounds good, no? A tourist stopped by, and asked what can we do in Sweden. I told him to watch the moose dance on the ice. Mysql: They liked it, no? Orion: Couldn't tell. They said the moose fell all over his own feet. The tourist went on a Wednesday. Mysql: No wonder. You should have them go on weekends. Weekdays are amateur nights. -Original Message- From: David Kinnvall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 2:32 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea They never get there about as much as this thread in its current shape provides any value whatsoever to Orion users. IMHO. /David
(RE: A Swedish Idea) - Interbase licence
Michael J. Cannon wrote: Interbase is not 'free.' Well, Michael, I already made a post of the parts in the Interbase licence that states that the database product is free. I think I read the licence very carefully, and as far as I can see, the licence is indeed free. The licence includes sentences like the ones included below, which states that one can freely use and distribute Interbase although one is not granted a patent right. This is, I believe, sufficient if you just want to put Interbase underneath your web application. Now, should you (or anyone else) disagree in this matter, I would be very interested in hearing your comments. Yours Randahl "The Initial Developer hereby grants You a world-wide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license, subject to third party intellectual property claims: (a) under intellectual property rights (other than patent or trademark) Licensable by Initial Developer to use, reproduce, modify, display, perform, sublicense and distribute the Original Code (or portions thereof) with or without Modifications, and/or as part of a Larger Work; and (b) under Patents Claims infringed by the making, using or selling of Original Code, to make, have made, use, practice, sell, and offer for sale, and/or otherwise dispose of the Original Code (or portions thereof)."
RE: A Swedish Idea
k please continue to monitor for yourselves, all ye list-lubbers. if it is a problem, and we can fix it, post here or at the bug-tracker. I'll credit where it's due. If anyone has this overwrite problem, or sees other bugs in hsql/hsqldb, let us know, please. site is http://sourceforge.net/projects/hsqldb web http://hsqldb.sourceforge.net dedmike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Neville Burnell Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 10:10 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: A Swedish Idea the autoupdate delivering an old hsql.jar *was* a problem - but now since the hsqldb package name has changed, the hsql.jar is not used and I just ignore it. -Original Message- From: Michael J. Cannon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, 19 April 2001 12:29 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: A Swedish Idea hmmm...autoupdate...Magnus, Carl? what do we need to include in hsqldb to prevent this? (Credit to you Stan and whoever else contributes)... dedmike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Stan Ng Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 3:00 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea At first a zillion people picked up the continued development of HypersonicSQL (because it's *awesome* for development, but anyway... SourceForge was flooded with clones, but I believe that everyone got together and the de facto successor is now http://hsqldb.sourceforge.net/ I recently tried it out with my Orion project. Works great, just needed to copy the hsqldb.jar into /orion/lib and update driver references hsql to hsqldb in the orion/config/data-sources.xml. Of course, now autoupdate keeps copying over the old hsql.jar that I deleted, but that's a whole different matter... - Original Message - From: "Jay Armstrong" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 9:35 AM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Given that HypersonicSQL is currently not being maintained (is it?), it seems like a logical idea to find a good substitute and MySQL would probably be a nice fit. Personally, I love HSQL and, now that tax season is over here in the United Socialist States of America, I plan to budget some time to help with that.
Re: A Swedish Idea
And Micro$oft programmers are from...? I suppose that the country they're from produce the shittiest code of em all :) Johan - Original Message - From: "Joseph B. Ottinger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
RE: A Swedish Idea
Can anyone answer the question of whether Mysql does or doesn't support transaction? I believe the official position of Mysql is that they do support transactions in their recent release with the Berkeley DB engine. Am I misreading or misunderstanding something? -Original Message- From: Hani Suleiman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 4:24 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: A Swedish Idea Argh, I really did try hard not to respond, but I can resist no longer... 'it's good enough for NASA' means nothing, nor is it relevant. Win98 is good enough for many 'respected' corporations, that does not mean we should all follow suit. Horses for courses, my friend. Mysql does not support transactions, which are REQUIRED for J2EE. It's 'good enough' for certain types of applications, however, it is NOT good enough for J2EE. End of discussion. I think you're working off of a very false assumption, which seems to go like this: I like technology X I like technology Y Technology X and technology Y must get married, to form technology Z that I will think is the nest thing since sliced bread. Sadly, while there's nothing wrong with the first two steps, the third seems to be a bit of aleap of faith. Hani On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Transactions are supported with the Berkeley transaction engine in the current Mysql release. A prior user has answered how to set this up. Kiddie database? Did you tell Nasa that? They made a recent (Dec. 2000, I believe) decision to use Mysql in some of their business systems (hopefully, not the space modules). Yes, others like postgresql are more advanced, but mysql is as good as hsql, and would be a good modeling, prototype database. For the record, I use both mysql (for testing and prototyping) and Oracle 8I (for the real stuff). And everyone can learn from them in how to write good documentation. -Original Message- From: Dan North [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 2:08 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Ok, I'll bite. Orion is not an open source product and probably never will be. The fact that it is free for development purposes and remarkably inexpensive for deployment shouldn't alter your perception of (a) the ownership and proprietary nature of the code, or (b) the quality of the product. MySQL is a quick and dirty database. It has a number of glaring omissions compared to most grown-up RDBs (transactions and sub-selects to name but two), and there are better open source products out there (Interbase and PostgreSQL spring to mind) for scalability, robustness, data integrity, yada yada yada. Therefore not the ideal companion for a product built to support a technology that is all of these things. Use a kiddie database if you must, but please don't inflict it on the rest of us! Cheers, Dan/tastapod ps. LogicSphere - mmm - can't wait! At 10:17 18/04/2001 -0400, you wrote: Why?!?! I have an idea, why don't IBM and BEA team up and release...logicsphere! After all, they're both US companies... On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- Dan North VP Development - Cadrion Technologies Ltd - +44 (0)20 7440 9550 CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium
Re: A Swedish Idea
On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 05:04:48PM -0600, Jay Armstrong wrote: Fair enough, Mike, but my bottom line was: Why not ... address that issue (having MySQL and Orion folks talk to each other) directly? Why? Randy had a good thought -- the Thought Police should quit stomping on it. The issue is simply whether or not MySQL and Orion should talk. :) No, because neither one is Bavarian. Actually... still no, because there's no REASON for them to. If you have such a desire, you can use MySQL with Orion. (Why such a desire exists is up to you, I suppose.) If you're talking about distributing MySQL *with* Orion, which was the original thrust, then NO, a thousand times NO, and let's add a few more to that for a total of 1004 NOs. Why? HSQL works because it's an integrated solution, for an all-Java distribution of Orion that happens to include a servicable database (for very poor values of "servicable"). MySQL, unless it's undergone a sea change to be all Java (that nobody else in the world knows about) can't do the same, so you would have the Windows Orion distribution, the Linux Orion distribution, the Solaris Orion distribution (obviously the best of them all!), etc. etc. ad nauseum. I can tell you that the Orion team wouldn't smile upon having all those builds, and neither would I - such a thing violates the whole idea behind Java. Let's keep our heads about us for once, and drop this silly "Let's bind a binary database into Orion" nonsense. Interbase - fine, if we can manage to integrate it into the same VM (and it can be done, but I'd want it transparently done). But something like Postgres or MySQL? No. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
Re: A Swedish Idea
Generally, I agree with the comment about Micro$oft quality of code, though I've seen some pretty horrible code from outside the US, too. :) Bill Gates may be from the US, but Micro$oft employees come from all over the world. Visit Redmond, WA, USA and you'll see for yourself. At 09:50 AM 4/19/01 +0200, you wrote: And Micro$oft programmers are from...? I suppose that the country they're from produce the shittiest code of em all :) Johan - Original Message - From: "Joseph B. Ottinger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
Re: A Swedish Idea (an aside)
What's rather funny about all this is that people are mistaking a sort of anti-patriotism for racism, and MY original statements were supposed to be absurd enough that you couldn't take it for anything other than a joke. But now we see that people agree with the statements, while changing the country in question... :) Kettle, why don't you be quiet? On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 07:06:16AM -0600, Jay Armstrong wrote: Generally, I agree with the comment about Micro$oft quality of code, though I've seen some pretty horrible code from outside the US, too. :) Bill Gates may be from the US, but Micro$oft employees come from all over the world. Visit Redmond, WA, USA and you'll see for yourself. At 09:50 AM 4/19/01 +0200, you wrote: And Micro$oft programmers are from...? I suppose that the country they're from produce the shittiest code of em all :) Johan - Original Message - From: "Joseph B. Ottinger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
RE: A Swedish Idea
It has been said that if Bill Gates stopped to pick up a hundred dollar bill, he would be losing money. On a more serious note, it's really not the Bill company code so much, as their practice of releasing alpha or beta quality products as production quality. -Original Message- From: Jay Armstrong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 8:06 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Generally, I agree with the comment about Micro$oft quality of code, though I've seen some pretty horrible code from outside the US, too. :) Bill Gates may be from the US, but Micro$oft employees come from all over the world. Visit Redmond, WA, USA and you'll see for yourself. At 09:50 AM 4/19/01 +0200, you wrote: And Micro$oft programmers are from...? I suppose that the country they're from produce the shittiest code of em all :) Johan - Original Message - From: "Joseph B. Ottinger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
RE: A Swedish Idea
flamebait Unlike all those OSS products huh. /flamebait On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: It has been said that if Bill Gates stopped to pick up a hundred dollar bill, he would be losing money. On a more serious note, it's really not the Bill company code so much, as their practice of releasing alpha or beta quality products as production quality. -Original Message- From: Jay Armstrong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 8:06 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Generally, I agree with the comment about Micro$oft quality of code, though I've seen some pretty horrible code from outside the US, too. :) Bill Gates may be from the US, but Micro$oft employees come from all over the world. Visit Redmond, WA, USA and you'll see for yourself. At 09:50 AM 4/19/01 +0200, you wrote: And Micro$oft programmers are from...? I suppose that the country they're from produce the shittiest code of em all :) Johan - Original Message - From: "Joseph B. Ottinger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
Re: A Swedish Idea
The groomsmen at my wedding were named Schotanus, Schloss and Schnakenberg -- no kidding -- if they all lived in the same city, they'd be on the same page in the phonebook. So, bring on the Germanic hordes! Now try to stay focused: Randy's idea was whether or not MySQL and Orion should talk about "ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products". Just talk. No earth-shaking changes. Yes, HSQL is in the Orion Server download, but, no one said anything about binding MySQL to Orion. Put down your crack pipe for a minute and open your EJB 101 book: EJB containers don't care what data storage mechanism is being used! Even though Orion and HSQL run differently on different OS's and JVM's, neither did anyone advocate different versions of Orion for different OS's. If a dialog between Orion and HSQL can make life easier for the MySQL lovers, then what's the harm? Joe, you've probably been banned from the www.mysql.com site forever anyway, so give it up! :) Jay At 08:04 AM 4/19/01 -0500, you wrote: On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 05:04:48PM -0600, Jay Armstrong wrote: Fair enough, Mike, but my bottom line was: Why not ... address that issue (having MySQL and Orion folks talk to each other) directly? Why? Randy had a good thought -- the Thought Police should quit stomping on it. The issue is simply whether or not MySQL and Orion should talk. :) No, because neither one is Bavarian. Actually... still no, because there's no REASON for them to. If you have such a desire, you can use MySQL with Orion. (Why such a desire exists is up to you, I suppose.) If you're talking about distributing MySQL *with* Orion, which was the original thrust, then NO, a thousand times NO, and let's add a few more to that for a total of 1004 NOs. Why? HSQL works because it's an integrated solution, for an all-Java distribution of Orion that happens to include a servicable database (for very poor values of "servicable"). MySQL, unless it's undergone a sea change to be all Java (that nobody else in the world knows about) can't do the same, so you would have the Windows Orion distribution, the Linux Orion distribution, the Solaris Orion distribution (obviously the best of them all!), etc. etc. ad nauseum. I can tell you that the Orion team wouldn't smile upon having all those builds, and neither would I - such a thing violates the whole idea behind Java. Let's keep our heads about us for once, and drop this silly "Let's bind a binary database into Orion" nonsense. Interbase - fine, if we can manage to integrate it into the same VM (and it can be done, but I'd want it transparently done). But something like Postgres or MySQL? No. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
Re: A Swedish Idea (an aside)
I was going to say something about SAP, but I didn't want to upset the Bavarian delegation. At 08:44 AM 4/19/01 -0500, you wrote: What's rather funny about all this is that people are mistaking a sort of anti-patriotism for racism, and MY original statements were supposed to be absurd enough that you couldn't take it for anything other than a joke. But now we see that people agree with the statements, while changing the country in question... :) Kettle, why don't you be quiet? On Thu, Apr 19, 2001 at 07:06:16AM -0600, Jay Armstrong wrote: Generally, I agree with the comment about Micro$oft quality of code, though I've seen some pretty horrible code from outside the US, too. :) Bill Gates may be from the US, but Micro$oft employees come from all over the world. Visit Redmond, WA, USA and you'll see for yourself. At 09:50 AM 4/19/01 +0200, you wrote: And Micro$oft programmers are from...? I suppose that the country they're from produce the shittiest code of em all :) Johan - Original Message - From: "Joseph B. Ottinger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
RE: A Swedish Idea
OSS is like the turtles. They slowly craw along, and the best eventually get there. In the early days, folks would say "Apache who"? Oh yes, that's the opening band for the Beatles. Postgresql? Is that what Goldilocks ate in the three bears? And these are the same people who, when they first heard the name Beatles, they said "call the bug exterminator." And when they heard the name Rolling Stones, they say, "where's the avalanche?" -Original Message- From: Hani Suleiman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 10:03 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: A Swedish Idea flamebait Unlike all those OSS products huh. /flamebait On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: It has been said that if Bill Gates stopped to pick up a hundred dollar bill, he would be losing money. On a more serious note, it's really not the Bill company code so much, as their practice of releasing alpha or beta quality products as production quality. -Original Message- From: Jay Armstrong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 8:06 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Generally, I agree with the comment about Micro$oft quality of code, though I've seen some pretty horrible code from outside the US, too. :) Bill Gates may be from the US, but Micro$oft employees come from all over the world. Visit Redmond, WA, USA and you'll see for yourself. At 09:50 AM 4/19/01 +0200, you wrote: And Micro$oft programmers are from...? I suppose that the country they're from produce the shittiest code of em all :) Johan - Original Message - From: "Joseph B. Ottinger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
RE: A Swedish Idea
Yes, and like many turtles, they never get there. Believing in fairy tales is not a good basis for conducting business. The turtle and rabbit story is a way to tell average children 'yes, you might be stupid and slow, but you should keep trying'. I don't think you should take it too seriously. Hani On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: OSS is like the turtles. They slowly craw along, and the best eventually get there. In the early days, folks would say "Apache who"? Oh yes, that's the opening band for the Beatles. Postgresql? Is that what Goldilocks ate in the three bears? And these are the same people who, when they first heard the name Beatles, they said "call the bug exterminator." And when they heard the name Rolling Stones, they say, "where's the avalanche?" -Original Message- From: Hani Suleiman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 10:03 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: A Swedish Idea flamebait Unlike all those OSS products huh. /flamebait On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: It has been said that if Bill Gates stopped to pick up a hundred dollar bill, he would be losing money. On a more serious note, it's really not the Bill company code so much, as their practice of releasing alpha or beta quality products as production quality. -Original Message- From: Jay Armstrong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 8:06 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Generally, I agree with the comment about Micro$oft quality of code, though I've seen some pretty horrible code from outside the US, too. :) Bill Gates may be from the US, but Micro$oft employees come from all over the world. Visit Redmond, WA, USA and you'll see for yourself. At 09:50 AM 4/19/01 +0200, you wrote: And Micro$oft programmers are from...? I suppose that the country they're from produce the shittiest code of em all :) Johan - Original Message - From: "Joseph B. Ottinger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
Re: A Swedish Idea
They never get there about as much as this thread in its current shape provides any value whatsoever to Orion users. IMHO. /David - Original Message - From: "Hani Suleiman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 7:08 PM Subject: RE: A Swedish Idea Yes, and like many turtles, they never get there. Believing in fairy tales is not a good basis for conducting business. The turtle and rabbit story is a way to tell average children 'yes, you might be stupid and slow, but you should keep trying'. I don't think you should take it too seriously. Hani
Re: A Swedish Idea
God forbids, what if one of them got into car accident, would there still be Orion.
RE: A Swedish Idea
RE: OSS is like the turtles. They slowly craw along, and the best eventually get there. ...and here I thought "the Turtles" were a band, too. You know, '_So_Happy_Together_' The band Flo and Eddie played for before the Vanilla Fudge and the Mothers and after their first try at solo stardom? [:^b dedmike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Kemp Randy-W18971 Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 11:49 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: A Swedish Idea OSS is like the turtles. They slowly craw along, and the best eventually get there. In the early days, folks would say "Apache who"? Oh yes, that's the opening band for the Beatles. Postgresql? Is that what Goldilocks ate in the three bears? And these are the same people who, when they first heard the name Beatles, they said "call the bug exterminator." And when they heard the name Rolling Stones, they say, "where's the avalanche?" -Original Message- From: Hani Suleiman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 10:03 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: A Swedish Idea flamebait Unlike all those OSS products huh. /flamebait On Thu, 19 Apr 2001, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: It has been said that if Bill Gates stopped to pick up a hundred dollar bill, he would be losing money. On a more serious note, it's really not the Bill company code so much, as their practice of releasing alpha or beta quality products as production quality. -Original Message- From: Jay Armstrong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 8:06 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Generally, I agree with the comment about Micro$oft quality of code, though I've seen some pretty horrible code from outside the US, too. :) Bill Gates may be from the US, but Micro$oft employees come from all over the world. Visit Redmond, WA, USA and you'll see for yourself. At 09:50 AM 4/19/01 +0200, you wrote: And Micro$oft programmers are from...? I suppose that the country they're from produce the shittiest code of em all :) Johan - Original Message - From: "Joseph B. Ottinger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
RE: A Swedish Idea
Mike, You're probabaly right, but why do others have to speak for them. They're big boys -- and business-savy enough to come down from geek heaven and actually charge money for production. I'll bet they can even decide for themselves whether or not to speak with MySQL. If they've gotten 1,000 Orion customers to belly-up $1,500 each, then a mill-and-a-half should cover the phone call to MySQL. Speaking of money, I've gotta go try to make some right now. Randy, I, for one, liked your idea. The sky is not falling, but this dead horse is now thoroughly beaten (how's that for a mixed metaphore?). Jay At 12:46 PM 4/19/01 -0500, you wrote: Issue seems to be: MySQL is in Sweden. Orion Is in Sweden. They should talk. Fortunately, for the users of Orion they are just 2 guys, who wanna code (translation: they are in java guy heaven!) and have no interest in the complexities and distractions inherent in 'Big International Business^TM' (Trademark, Microsoft and the World Intellectual Property Organization, all rights reserved, ALL YOUR THOUGHTS ARE BELONG TO US!^TM) 'Chap' and Magnus are geeks. They are in Java geek heaven. THIS IS A GOOD THING! We should not be distracting them with anything other than their continuing to code the best damn Java appserver there is! Anything else is a waste of time. The point is moot, however. It is obvious they are focussed on what matters to them and what should matter to us. If MySQL wants to go by their offices and stop in when they have a break and buy 'em a beer (or cocoa, or whatever) for about 20 minutes and yakk...let 'em...if u want to fly to Sweden and facilitate this, Jay, knock yourself out. Magnus and Karl are two guys focussed on their code. Again, THIS IS A VERY GOOD THING. Distractions are BAAAD...thery're bad!...and I don't think that we will (or can) distract them. I like that. Marketing is for marketers. Two guys don't need a manager. Especially two guys that are as obviously skilled and laser-focussed on their goals as these two. See, Joe and Mike? I'm cured!!! dedmike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jay Armstrong Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 10:17 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea The groomsmen at my wedding were named Schotanus, Schloss and Schnakenberg -- no kidding -- if they all lived in the same city, they'd be on the same page in the phonebook. So, bring on the Germanic hordes! Now try to stay focused: Randy's idea was whether or not MySQL and Orion should talk about "ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products". Just talk. No earth-shaking changes. Yes, HSQL is in the Orion Server download, but, no one said anything about binding MySQL to Orion. Put down your crack pipe for a minute and open your EJB 101 book: EJB containers don't care what data storage mechanism is being used! Even though Orion and HSQL run differently on different OS's and JVM's, neither did anyone advocate different versions of Orion for different OS's. If a dialog between Orion and HSQL can make life easier for the MySQL lovers, then what's the harm? Joe, you've probably been banned from the www.mysql.com site forever anyway, so give it up! :) Jay At 08:04 AM 4/19/01 -0500, you wrote: On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 05:04:48PM -0600, Jay Armstrong wrote: Fair enough, Mike, but my bottom line was: Why not ... address that issue (having MySQL and Orion folks talk to each other) directly? Why? Randy had a good thought -- the Thought Police should quit stomping on it. The issue is simply whether or not MySQL and Orion should talk. :) No, because neither one is Bavarian. Actually... still no, because there's no REASON for them to. If you have such a desire, you can use MySQL with Orion. (Why such a desire exists is up to you, I suppose.) If you're talking about distributing MySQL *with* Orion, which was the original thrust, then NO, a thousand times NO, and let's add a few more to that for a total of 1004 NOs. Why? HSQL works because it's an integrated solution, for an all-Java distribution of Orion that happens to include a servicable database (for very poor values of "servicable"). MySQL, unless it's undergone a sea change to be all Java (that nobody else in the world knows about) can't do the same, so you would have the Windows Orion distribution, the Linux Orion distribution, the Solaris Orion distribution (obviously the best of them all!), etc. etc. ad nauseum. I can tell you that the Orion team wouldn't smile upon having all those builds, and neither would I - such a thing violates the whole idea behind Java. Let's keep our heads about us for once, and drop this silly "Let's bind a binary database into Orion" nonsense. Interbase - fine, if we can manage to integrate it into the same VM (and it can be done, but I'd want it transparently done). But so
Re: A Swedish Idea
What's the difference? We choose to write J2EE applications because J2EE is a community standard rather than a proprietary API. If Orion goes under, all it takes is a few new config files to deploy your app on another server. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 4:17 PM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea God forbids, what if one of them got into car accident, would there still be Orion.
Re: A Swedish Idea
Why?!?! I have an idea, why don't IBM and BEA team up and release...logicsphere! After all, they're both US companies... On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people.
Re: A Swedish Idea
Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
Re: A Swedish Idea
am I the only one on this list considering this useless discussion spam? karl and magnus are grownups making their own decisions and you don't actually believe repeating stuff that has been discussed on this list over and over again, inspires them? please contribute to getting the technical issue/plea ratio back to normal and deal with the way magnus and karl handle their company/product. thank you. robert (-) Robert Krger (-) SIGNAL 7 Gesellschaft fr Informationstechnologie mbH (-) Brder-Knau-Str. 79 - 64285 Darmstadt, (-) Tel: 06151 665401, Fax: 06151 665373 (-) [EMAIL PROTECTED], www.signal7.de
RE: A Swedish Idea
I'm from the USA, near Chicago, Il. What countries lead in quality of code? I would like to know. No matter what country the product is produced in, you might find software engineers from the USA, England, India, etc., all working on the same software product. Open source efforts like Enhydra, Tomcat, or Jboss have contributors from all around the world. It's like trying to find a car made in the USA. Parts come from Japan, it's assembled in Mexico, and marketed in the US. Orion is an exception, since they are basically a two man operation. Yet I do think the two young gentlemen did a bang up job between them. They just need help with other facets, such as documentation, marketing, and support. And even superman is part of a team called the Justice League, since he can't solve everything by himself. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 9:20 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
RE: A Swedish Idea
Which makes your post of suggesting they team up with other equally Swedish folks even more bizarre... I think we should all stick to what we do best...being competent Orion users. When I get paid to worry about Orion's future and business plan, and who they choose to deal with, parner with, sell out to, go to bed with, then I will. Until then, I'll use this lovely product, report bugs, look confused and try to figure out when/why things don't work...and buy licenses. The rest, someone else can worry about! Anyways, everyone else must be heartily bored of this exchange by now, so I'll bow out of this particular thread to keep the conversation more 'high brow'! Novice at tongue biting, Hani On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: I'm from the USA, near Chicago, Il. What countries lead in quality of code? I would like to know. No matter what country the product is produced in, you might find software engineers from the USA, England, India, etc., all working on the same software product. Open source efforts like Enhydra, Tomcat, or Jboss have contributors from all around the world. It's like trying to find a car made in the USA. Parts come from Japan, it's assembled in Mexico, and marketed in the US. Orion is an exception, since they are basically a two man operation. Yet I do think the two young gentlemen did a bang up job between them. They just need help with other facets, such as documentation, marketing, and support. And even superman is part of a team called the Justice League, since he can't solve everything by himself. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 9:20 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people.
Re: A Swedish Idea
On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 11:54:02AM -0400, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: I'm from the USA, near Chicago, Il. What countries lead in quality of code? I would like to know. No matter what country the product is produced in, The best country in terms of code/quality ratio is Cameroon. you might find software engineers from the USA, England, India, etc., all working on the same software product. Open source efforts like Enhydra, Tomcat, or Jboss have contributors from all around the world. It's like That explains their bugs. trying to find a car made in the USA. Parts come from Japan, it's assembled in Mexico, and marketed in the US. Orion is an exception, since they are basically a two man operation. Yet I do think the two young gentlemen did a bang up job between them. They just need help with other facets, such as documentation, marketing, and support. And even superman is part of a team called the Justice League, since he can't solve everything by himself. Let's be real: the Justice League exists so that Superman can ogle Wonder Woman. Everyone else is included just so Superman doesn't have to take out EVERY LITTLE WIMPY VILLAIN by himself. (To wit: "Oh, crap, Batman, you take that guy, he's boring for me.") -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
RE: A Swedish Idea
I said it may be a dumb idea. -Original Message- From: Hani Suleiman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 9:18 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Why?!?! I have an idea, why don't IBM and BEA team up and release...logicsphere! After all, they're both US companies... On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people.
Re: A Swedish Idea
On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 06:34:09PM +0100, William Jones wrote: Would some people please just grow up. I agree! (Wait, am I included?) If you don't want to use Orion then that is your decision. Vote with your feet and leave this group to those who have valid issues to discuss. (Oh and best of luck finding anything else that is as cheap and quick) I can't type too good with my feet. Joseph: as for making racist allegations about the intellectual or programming ability of people based on their national origin, I urge you to consider the following: - Your country is governed by George W. Bush - I haven't seen your place of education, Tallahassee Community College, featuring in the honours list in the ACM International Programming Contest (c.f. http://acm.baylor.edu/past/default.htm) Yeah, and never will - unless they stop trying to teach COBOL, I suppose. (Only one class in Comp Sci taken there, and oh, the glories of EBCDIC.) Oh, wait! A couple of relevant points: 1) I didn't make any racist remarks, unless you're such an idiot as to think that Sweden is populated ONLY by Swedes, etc. etc. etc. 2) My limited college education doesn't have any relevance to the joke at hand, nor does the college at which said education took place. 3) You should learn to look up "sarcasm" in the dictionary. It's quite useful. If you already know how to look it up, or even possibly the word's meaning (I know only us college-eddicated peoples know what it meanses), then please apply said meaning to nearly everything in this thread. Thanks! :) - Original Message - From: "Joseph B. Ottinger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 3:20 PM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
RE: A Swedish Idea
I think everyone needs to cool down and realize that Joseph's comment was sarcastic. I realize the sarcasm may not be easy to pick up on if English isn't your native language, but we don't need to resort to personal attacks. Michael -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of William JonesSent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 1:34 PMTo: Orion-InterestSubject: Re: A Swedish Idea Would some people please just grow up. If you don't want to use Orion then that is your decision. Vote with your feet and leave this group to those who have valid issues to discuss. (Oh and best of luck finding anything else that is as cheap and quick) Joseph: as for making racist allegations about the intellectual or programming ability of people based on their national origin, I urge you to consider the following: - Your country is governed by George W. Bush - I haven't seen your place of education, Tallahassee Community College, featuring in the honours list in the ACM International Programming Contest (c.f. http://acm.baylor.edu/past/default.htm) - Original Message - From: "Joseph B. Ottinger" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 3:20 PM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Personally, I'm becoming more and more convinced that not only is Sweden full of lousy programmers, but they're all lousy in congruent ways just to make the rest of the world's jobs harder. I say we all start using Bavarian products, if only because Bavarian names seem to have a better vowel/consonant ratio. Say, Randy... what country are YOU from? (That's the leading indicator for quality of code...) On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:49:24AM -0500, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
RE: A Swedish Idea
Not to mention that the thingy (I won't call it a database) that he uses for the 'real stuff' come with the curse of the 'Oracle Marketing Ghoul' the famous shifting license, and numerous other scary things. 8-(;^b I DO believe that MySQL (through mmSQL, as well as the Berkeley stuff) supports J2EE in a 'not-even-good-enough-for-gubbmint-work' way. Sadly, HyperSonicSQL/hsqldb does not support a full set of J2EE, or JDBC 2.0, or SQL92 for that matter, by itself. But we're working on it (we really, really are!). The advantage we have over MySQL is that we are Java, 100%, and therefore, MUCH easier to work with and communicate with, if you're a Java developer. BTW, any of you OTHER MySQL zealots want to discuss the upcoming Gemini release? I can't find any specifics on it other than it is GPL and builds on the MySQL codebase. dedmike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Hani Suleiman Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 4:24 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: A Swedish Idea Argh, I really did try hard not to respond, but I can resist no longer... 'it's good enough for NASA' means nothing, nor is it relevant. Win98 is good enough for many 'respected' corporations, that does not mean we should all follow suit. Horses for courses, my friend. Mysql does not support transactions, which are REQUIRED for J2EE. It's 'good enough' for certain types of applications, however, it is NOT good enough for J2EE. End of discussion. I think you're working off of a very false assumption, which seems to go like this: I like technology X I like technology Y Technology X and technology Y must get married, to form technology Z that I will think is the nest thing since sliced bread. Sadly, while there's nothing wrong with the first two steps, the third seems to be a bit of aleap of faith. Hani On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Transactions are supported with the Berkeley transaction engine in the current Mysql release. A prior user has answered how to set this up. Kiddie database? Did you tell Nasa that? They made a recent (Dec. 2000, I believe) decision to use Mysql in some of their business systems (hopefully, not the space modules). Yes, others like postgresql are more advanced, but mysql is as good as hsql, and would be a good modeling, prototype database. For the record, I use both mysql (for testing and prototyping) and Oracle 8I (for the real stuff). And everyone can learn from them in how to write good documentation. -Original Message- From: Dan North [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 2:08 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Ok, I'll bite. Orion is not an open source product and probably never will be. The fact that it is free for development purposes and remarkably inexpensive for deployment shouldn't alter your perception of (a) the ownership and proprietary nature of the code, or (b) the quality of the product. MySQL is a quick and dirty database. It has a number of glaring omissions compared to most grown-up RDBs (transactions and sub-selects to name but two), and there are better open source products out there (Interbase and PostgreSQL spring to mind) for scalability, robustness, data integrity, yada yada yada. Therefore not the ideal companion for a product built to support a technology that is all of these things. Use a kiddie database if you must, but please don't inflict it on the rest of us! Cheers, Dan/tastapod ps. LogicSphere - mmm - can't wait! At 10:17 18/04/2001 -0400, you wrote: Why?!?! I have an idea, why don't IBM and BEA team up and release...logicsphere! After all, they're both US companies... On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Kemp Randy-W18971 wrote: Now this may be a dumb idea, and I am just thinking up brainstorms to promote Orion, but it occurred to me that both Mysql and Orion are in Sweden. Now I don't know how big Sweden is, but perhaps a meeting between the two teams could find ways to mutually promote or bridge the two products. Just a thought. Speaking of Sweden, since Rickard O. from Jboss lives there, does anyone know of Magnus or Karl have meet him? In once sense, but Jboss and Orion are trying to make this EJB technology available to more people. -- Dan North VP Development - Cadrion Technologies Ltd - +44 (0)20 7440 9550 CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium
RE: A Swedish Idea
On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: But, let's say it doesn't support transactions. What's wrong with starting a dialog? Why bother? So the people who bleat about mySQL all the time are happier? Frankly I'd rather the Orion team concentrate on functionality and J2EE implementation, rather than worry about integrating with MySQL when SO many far superior alternatives exist. Have a look at config/database-schemas. In my opinion, Orion should not do ANYTHING to 'conform' to MySQL or adapt to it. If MySQL is fixed in time and has a decent JDBC driver that can support transactions and all else that is required, then this whole ridiculous discussion is moot anyways. Lets move on now! Hani
RE: A Swedish Idea
I would guess that it would be MySQL making the majority (all?) of the changes to support J2EE platforms, not just Orion. To Orion, it's just another storage mechanism. As for "why bother?". Well, that's what "open" software is all about. Open minds, open discussions, open ideas, etc, etc. Some are close-minded about MySQL, but many happen to like it. I'm not sure what "fixed in time" has to do with this -- is there some schedule MySQL has to meet? I happen to think this discussion is very important from a technical standpoint and because it's about ideas and attitudes. Besides, a little venting of frustration now and then is healthy. Sorry for cluttering your inbox. Jay At 07:46 PM 4/18/01 -0400, you wrote: On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Jay Armstrong wrote: But, let's say it doesn't support transactions. What's wrong with starting a dialog? Why bother? So the people who bleat about mySQL all the time are happier? Frankly I'd rather the Orion team concentrate on functionality and J2EE implementation, rather than worry about integrating with MySQL when SO many far superior alternatives exist. Have a look at config/database-schemas. In my opinion, Orion should not do ANYTHING to 'conform' to MySQL or adapt to it. If MySQL is fixed in time and has a decent JDBC driver that can support transactions and all else that is required, then this whole ridiculous discussion is moot anyways. Lets move on now! Hani
RE: A Swedish Idea
hmmm...autoupdate...Magnus, Carl? what do we need to include in hsqldb to prevent this? (Credit to you Stan and whoever else contributes)... dedmike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Stan Ng Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 3:00 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea At first a zillion people picked up the continued development of HypersonicSQL (because it's *awesome* for development, but anyway... SourceForge was flooded with clones, but I believe that everyone got together and the de facto successor is now http://hsqldb.sourceforge.net/ I recently tried it out with my Orion project. Works great, just needed to copy the hsqldb.jar into /orion/lib and update driver references hsql to hsqldb in the orion/config/data-sources.xml. Of course, now autoupdate keeps copying over the old hsql.jar that I deleted, but that's a whole different matter... - Original Message - From: "Jay Armstrong" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 9:35 AM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Given that HypersonicSQL is currently not being maintained (is it?), it seems like a logical idea to find a good substitute and MySQL would probably be a nice fit. Personally, I love HSQL and, now that tax season is over here in the United Socialist States of America, I plan to budget some time to help with that.
RE: A Swedish Idea
the autoupdate delivering an old hsql.jar *was* a problem - but now since the hsqldb package name has changed, the hsql.jar is not used and I just ignore it. -Original Message- From: Michael J. Cannon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, 19 April 2001 12:29 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: A Swedish Idea hmmm...autoupdate...Magnus, Carl? what do we need to include in hsqldb to prevent this? (Credit to you Stan and whoever else contributes)... dedmike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Stan Ng Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 3:00 PM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea At first a zillion people picked up the continued development of HypersonicSQL (because it's *awesome* for development, but anyway... SourceForge was flooded with clones, but I believe that everyone got together and the de facto successor is now http://hsqldb.sourceforge.net/ I recently tried it out with my Orion project. Works great, just needed to copy the hsqldb.jar into /orion/lib and update driver references hsql to hsqldb in the orion/config/data-sources.xml. Of course, now autoupdate keeps copying over the old hsql.jar that I deleted, but that's a whole different matter... - Original Message - From: "Jay Armstrong" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 9:35 AM Subject: Re: A Swedish Idea Given that HypersonicSQL is currently not being maintained (is it?), it seems like a logical idea to find a good substitute and MySQL would probably be a nice fit. Personally, I love HSQL and, now that tax season is over here in the United Socialist States of America, I plan to budget some time to help with that.
