Re: [ozmidwifery] Lymphedema

[Judy Chapman]

What is "excessive" pushing and who is to say that she will have
to do it? Is the downside of "excessive" pushing worse than the
downside of post CS infection, which I have seen some nasty
cases of. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Katrina Flora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi All, has anyone had any experience with caring for a woman
> with primary lymphedema?
> 
> A friend of mine has this condition and is 24/40 at the
> moment. Her symptoms haven't worsened through the pregnancy up
> to this point. I have had a look at a few databases and texts
> and it seems there hasn't been any research done in this area
> and there aren't any guidelines for management of
> pregnancy/birth for these women.
> 
> So I'm looking for any anecdotal evidence in this area. It
> seems that the real risk in this situation is with postpartum
> infection, so logic would say avoid acquiring a caesarean
> wound. But she has been told that excessive pushing during 2nd
> stage could be problematic for her in that most of the lymph
> nodes she's missing are in her groin and her edema is in her
> legs. 
> What do you think?
> 
> Many thanks,
> Katrina Flora
> Student Midwife, 2nd year ACU
> 
> 


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Re: [ozmidwifery] Pinky on ACA TONIGHT - Channel 9

[Judy Chapman]

ACA was on after the cricket here so I saw the trailer and
stayed to watch. Great Pinky, you came across as much more
caring than the other woman. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Kelly Zantey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Check out ACA tonight at 6.30pm, Pinky will be on about babies
> and sleep.
> Don't forget to write in and say you liked the segment ask for
> more of Pinky
> :-)
> 
>  
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
>  
> 
> Kelly Zantey
> 
> Creator,   BellyBelly.com.au
> 
> Conception, Pregnancy, Birth and Baby
> 
> Australian Birth   &
> Post Natal
> Services Conference 2007
> 
>  
> 
> 


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Re: [ozmidwifery] hep b @ birth

[Judy Chapman]

Our unit gives it at the same time as the neonatal screen for
that very reason. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Lyle Burgoyne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> Hi ,
> 
> A number of staff in our unit have commented that babies who
> have Hep B
> immunisation just after birth seem much more unsettled for the
> first
> 24-48 hrs than those babies who don't have the immunisation
> .Has anyone
> else noticed this or are we just imaging things ?? Our unit
> has only
> recently changed to offering Hep B immunisation after birth at
> the same
> time as the Konakion,we used to give it on day 3 or 4.
> Interested in any
> comments or if anyone knows if any studies have been done .
> 
> Thanks 
> Lyle
> 
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential
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> confidential information and is intended only for the
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> should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.
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RE: [ozmidwifery] Mum Gives Birth In Toilet - Monash Medical Centre

[Judy Chapman]

Hi Sharon,
It is very tempting to think of a fast labour as great,
especially for someone like me who had two CS for FTP. I have
learned, though, that many women who do have very rapid labours
can find them VERY intense, and very frightening as they are
s out of control. My imagination says it must be like being
picked up by a tornado and then dumped unceremoniously. I can
see her fear and agree that she probably had many expectations
left unmet. I hope someone has the wisdom to sit down with the
couple and debrief. 
Cheers
Judy

--- sharon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What I wonderful way to have a baby no intervention or
> medicalization of a
> natural process. The woman wants to be congratulated for that.
> A very rare
> way to have a baby nowdays unless you have the baby at home.
> As a student I
> was privy to this type of birth only once and although it was
> fast it was
> great. Regards  sharon 
> 
>  
> 
>_  
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Nikki Macfarlane
> Sent: Wednesday, 24 January 2007 6:16 PM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Mum Gives Birth In Toilet - Monash
> Medical Centre
> 
>  
> 
> You know what, I have a different take on this. If the
> newspaper article has
> reported accurately what the parents said (and I highly doubt
> they have, but
> for the sake of argument lets give themt he benefit of the
> doubt!), there
> are some serious failings of expectations here and little
> empathy going on
> from the medical staff.
> 
>  
> 
> The mother was rushed to hospital by ambulance and arrived in
> the later
> stages of labor - this in itself appeared to be distressing
> for her as it
> appeared she was taken by surprise by the speed with which
> labor was
> progressing.
> 
>  
> 
> So, now having arrived in advanced labor, she is not checked
> as she expects
> to be and does not appear to have a midwife in the room with
> her. Now that
> may be because she does not appear to be in strong labour, or
> that there is
> no midwife available. But from the mother's perspective, it is
> not what she
> expects. She feels out of control, in intense pain, and not
> receiving the
> level of hospital support she is expecting. She could have
> called for help
> and support or asked her husband to go and find a midwife. But
> her
> expectations were not being met. And it is a pretty reasonable
> expectation
> to have a midwife at the very least to reassure a mother who
> feels she is in
> strong labor, and realistically to be checking or staying by
> her side if she
> appears to be imminently birthing.
> 
>  
> 
> At the point at which the baby is born, both parents describe
> themselves as
> frantic. This was not the experience they were hoping for.
> Yes, she did it
> without pain medication or any intervention. Yes, this is what
> many women
> aspire to. Yes, this is better for baby and mother healthwise
> in most
> circumstances. However, the mother felt unsupported, and the
> father felt
> panicky. And the hospital's response? "We are as disappointed
> as Kay and
> Michael that the birth of their second child did not go
> according to plan,
> but babies have a mind of their own sometimes."  Really? What
> a leap! To
> make the assumption that the midwives feel the same degree of
> disappointment
> as the parents. Yes, babies do sometimes come quicker than
> anticipated. What
> would have been nice is for this mum and dad to have been
> heard and had
> their sense of distress and lack of support acknowledged.
> Whether the
> midwives felt justified in their actions or not, the parents
> still felt the
> way they did. The mum was in the hospital for at least an hour
> and appeared
> to have no midwifery support during that time. I get that
> there may have
> been none available. But to dismiss the whole affair with a
> patronising
> comment about how the midwives are just as upset as the
> parents is hardly
> effective communication and certainly not displaying good
> listening skills
> towards the parents. 
> 
>  
> 
> Now of course, the whole newspaper article may be complete
> tosh and the
> parents/midwives may not have said anything that was
> attributed to them in
> the quotes. 
> 
>  
> 
> Always a shame that such stories are not seen as an
> opportunity to talk
> about how incredible our bodies are or how tragic it is that
> the health
> system the world over is failing women because of shortages of
> experienced
> midwives, or a multitude of other approaches that would be
> more beneficial
> towards women and babies.
> 
>  
> 
> Nikki Macfarlane
> 
> Childbirth International
> 
>  
> 
> 
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.8/649 - Release
> Date: 23/01/2007
> 8:40 PM
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
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> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.8/649 - Release
> Date: 2

Re: [ozmidwifery] Support people in birthing suites

[Judy Chapman]

Hi Lisa, 
  I don't have a problem with children if they are prepared and there is 
someone other than the partner to look after their needs during the labour. I 
also don't have a set number of support people, I just believe that whoever is 
there is positively influencing what is happening. 
  Cheers
  Judy

Lisa Gierke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  What are peoples thoughts on limiting or not limiting the number of 
support people who come into be with a woman in labor in hospital? What is your 
hospital policy about thisare children welcome? Am  interested in what 
others experiences and policies are.
  Lisa


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Re: [ozmidwifery] where has this list gone?

[Judy Chapman]

We try so hard where I work to give woman centered care which is
great when all goes according to plan. But if it doesn't: why no
IV (she was drinking well), why no catheter (she was voiding
well), why no CTG (frequent intermittant asucultation showed no
abnormalities) etc etc. This was a transfer for obstructed
labour. Even with all these things they could not manage a
vaginal birth but the criticism is there.
 cheers,
Judy

--- Sue Cookson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> Hi,
> I'm still getting only the odd email so apologies if I repeat
> what 
> anyone else has said.
> Justine really has her finger on the pulse in terms of
> consumer 
> apathy/lack of knowledge. One thing that really struck me as I
> was 
> completing my midwifery degree though and doing my clinical
> placements, 
> was how scared most midwives working in the hospitals are of
> being sued. 
> They practice defensive midwifery/obstetrics becuase they are
> constantly 
> covering their arses.
> 
> The same story of course with all the doctors. And that's how
> we are all 
> taught, as such. And as a student, when I dared to stand up
> for the 
> women to stay off the CTG or refuse a c/section just because
> it was 8pm 
> what did I get - abuse and fear thrown at me by 'senior'
> midwives - 'it 
> will be on your head if that baby dies' stuff. And I'm not
> kidding or 
> making this up. This is how we as students are taught - be it
> within a 
> BMid degree or as a post grad nurse... and we work besdie all
> the fear 
> based doctors...
> 
> Of course I discussed CTG vs intermittent auscultation, etc
> etc and 
> placed the documents on the desk the next morning, but if I
> hadn't had 
> my 20 odd years of normal birth prior to doing my placements
> then I 
> would be learning to behave and think like others who work in
> and for 
> the system. I was even challenged fully for delaying cord
> clamping ..by 
> a young doctor ..who of course was taught that cutting the
> cord 
> stimulates the baby to breathe... and when I presented a PP
> presentation 
> to other midwives in the unit about delayed cord clamping -
> one 
> response? None of us cut the cord early here anyway. Duh - I
> nearly fell 
> over. This is why there is so little change
> 
> And don't bite my head off either - I know there are also
> midwives 
> working in the system who are doing fantastic work to enact
> change - to 
> policies and attitudes, to empower the women ... bu in my
> mind, the 
> change will have to occur as a total change - like midwifery
> led units 
> with little doctor input, where midwives are happy to truly
> advocate for 
> the women and be prepared to continue to learn - like taking
> women past 
> 41 weeks or even 42 weeks if all is well, taking on care of
> normal birth 
> with all its facets  birthing happier and healthier babies
> with 
> mothers intact about their birth process and should I say it
> .. maybe 
> even empowered as mothers and parents.
> 
> Sue
> 
> 
> 
> >Nah, not throwing it out the window at all, I see it as
> having great
> >potential and a great opportunity to learn and develop for
> Australia. It's
> >great for everyone to know what you've just said Justine, as
> no-one really
> >knows anything about what's going on, and all the work
> occurring behind the
> >scenes. The more we know about progress, the more we can work
> together and
> >understand the whys and hows and get excited. Also good for
> morale I think,
> >seeing and hearing progress... but with that you also need to
> talk
> >challenges, goals and improvements to be made. 
> >
> >Perhaps you might like to speak at the conference and let us
> know what you
> >have been doing, what you are hoping to do and how you are
> working with NZ
> >to help our case here? I would be more than happy, I am sure
> everyone would
> >love to know and also ways they can help women have more
> options in
> >Australia. Lyn Allison is going to be listening - its an
> opportunity to be
> >heard which we can't miss, no matter how many times we have
> to say it.
> >
> >Best Regards,
> >
> >Kelly Zantey
> >Creator, BellyBelly.com.au
> >Conception, Pregnancy, Birth and Baby
> >BellyBelly Birth Support
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Justine Caines
> >Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 1:47 PM
> >To: OzMid List
> >Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] where has this list gone?
> >
> >Dear Kelly and all
> >
> >Some additional information may assist you before you totally
> throw the NZ
> >model out the window.
> >
> >For those of us who have lobbied at high levels, and been
> involved with
> >writing (and selling!) NMAP etc we needed to totally
> understand the good and
> >the bad of NZ.
> >
> >Kelly your statements re intervention in NZ on a broad brush
> are not totally
> >true.
> >
> >One of the major down falls of the stats (ie c/s) is the
> midwifery
> >interaction with obstetrics (ie large metro units that have
> the g

Re: [ozmidwifery] Strep B

[Judy Chapman]

This is fairly close to what happens at our hospital also. 
Cheers
Judy


--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Here at our local hospital of approx 530 births per annum we
> do not routinely screen all pregnant women.
> We "offer" (with a fair degree of pressure, I might add) IV
> antibiotics in labour of a woman has had Pre-labour ruptured
> membres for 18 hours or if she is in preterm labour <37 weeks
> or if she has a history of previous baby with GBS infection or
> previous GBS positive herself ( say for example on a past
> history from birth elsewhere with a previous baby)
> If a baby is born before antibiotics are able to be
> administered or a woman declines antibiotics we observe the
> baby for any signs of infection. 
> That is what happens here 
> Personally I am not in favour of routine GBS testing.
> Good luck.
> 
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: nunyara 
>   To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
>   Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 12:49 PM
>   Subject: [ozmidwifery] Strep B
> 
> 
>   Hi all,
> 
>
> 
>   I know info on this topic has been posted before but I
> deleted it all - silly me as I now wish to ask some questions
> which have probably already been covered.
> 
>
> 
>   I am 34 weeks pregnant and was not going to have the STREP B
> test but I have done some further research and it suggests
> that all women SHOULD be tested but antibiotics used during
> labour for a positive result may not be the way to go. 
> 
>
> 
>   To all the midwife's on this forum: is it necessary for me
> to have this test? Is it in my and my babies best interest to
> do this?
> 
>
> 
>   If I tested positive (which I didn't with my first child, in
> fact I don't even remember having the test) is the intravenous
> antibiotic really necessary? I do not want this as I plan to
> have a water birth and I am also highly allergic to penicillan
> and other forms of backup antibiotics. 
> 
>
> 
>   I will raise this at my midwife appointment I am due for
> this week I would just like some opinions.
> 
>
> 
>   Kind Regards
> 
>   Jassy
> 
> 
> 
>
--
> 
> 
>   No virus found in this incoming message.
>   Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>   Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.7/619 - Release
> Date: 1/7/2007
> 


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Re: [ozmidwifery] How do you deal with your fustrations?

[Judy Chapman]

So many women DON'T believe they can birth well. They are so
afraid of the pain and afraid of something going wrong. Then is
becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and they are then so thankful
they had the obstetrician. I, also, am so frustrated at the
choices sometimes but it will take a huge shift in birthing
culture to change that. It is like eating the proverbial
elephant, one bite at a time, converting one family at a time. 
We need some more high profile homebirthers like Elle McPherson
who would be prepared to tell about it in the popular press.
This may help some but not all. 
Cheers
Judy 


--- Dan & Rachael Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I get so fustrated when I know people who choose subordinate
> (in my opinion) 
> levels of care.  What I mean is, healthy women who choose care
> under an 
> obstetrician.  They get roped into the high tech repeated u/s,
> monitoring, 
> for the "just in case" ignorant way of thinking.  They end up
> having highly 
> intervened vaginal births (but they see as 'natural birth'
> because it is 
> vaginal) or worse a necessary unnecessary cs. Does this make
> sense?
> 
> I have been up most of the night stewing over this, because a
> 4 of my 
> rellies have recently choosen this type of care to end up with
> the same 
> results... and they think I'm weird because I choose to birth
> at home!  OK 
> so I'm a midwife (new at the game, but still), so maybe the
> extra knowledge 
> helped me to make 'good' or appropriate choices for me, but
> what stops women 
> from investigating choices for themselves? Why do they so
> blindly give 
> themselves to medical men in every sense of the word? Do women
> really 
> believe that they don't have the power to birth themselves and
> that they 
> really need help? Do they really think nature got it that
> wrong?  AHH!!
> 
> How do you get 'over it'? How do you talk with these women
> about birth in 
> social conversatin without lecturing them?
> 
> Hope this makes sense.. i'm tired! 
> 
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Kaede` Anne

[Judy Chapman]

Congratulations Rachel and Dan. That sounds fantastic. I hope
postnatal goes as well. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Dan & Rachael Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi!
> 
> I birthed Kaede` Anne yesterday morning at home in water after
> a gentle night of labour.  Born at 38 weeks, she weighed 6
> pound 14oz.  She is beautiful and adorned by her big brother
> Rhett. Rhett is going to give her some breastfeeding lessons
> this PM because she is having trouble getting it right! :)
> 
> Love,
> Rachaelxx
>
_
> Dan & Rachael Austin
> "Namcala"
> 418 Austin's Road 
> Theodore, QLD, 4719
> HPh: (07) 49931213
> Dan's Mob: 0409896285
> Rachael's Mob: 0419750780
> Fax: (07) 49931341


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Re: [ozmidwifery] Does anyone need help ...

[Judy Chapman]

One of the areas of concern with spam and email adresses -
forwarding on emails. So many people don't delete the adress of
the person who sent it to them and there are huge lists which
can end up anywhere. As well as that, emails that go to a lot of
people should have only one address in the 'to' line and the
rest in the BCC line which hides them from everyone else. 
I don't know how to address the issue of spam emails that don't
even have my email address on, why do I get them?? 

Cheers
Judy

--- Julie Garratt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi Kim,
>  Me too, lots of spam from ?? banks, job offers, penis
> enlargement!! I 
> thought it was because someone typed my email address into
> UTUBE. Could they 
> have got it from the list somehow? 20/11/06 for example 12
> messages 10 of 
> them spam.
> Julie:)
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Kim Hunter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 12:42 PM
> Subject: [ozmidwifery] Does anyone need help ...
> 
> 
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > As I have been inundated with far too much spam, I
> > am concerned that I'm missing messages from people
> > on the list who are having problems.
> >
> > If this is the case for anyone, let me apologise if I
> > missed your bounced emails or not responded to you,
> > its not been intentional, its just been out of my control.
> >
> > In order to help you resolve any current issues,  can
> > you contact me directly (no through the list).  My email
> > address is [EMAIL PROTECTED]  I will endeavour to
> > help you resolve any current list issues as quickly as
> > is possible.
> >
> > Regards
> > Kim
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Kim Hunter
> > List Administration
> > Birth International
> > ACE Graphics and Associates in Childbirth Education
> >
> > http://www.birthinternational.com/
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > --
> > This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> > Visit  to subscribe or
> unsubscribe. 
> --
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Re: [ozmidwifery] hanging baby scales

[Judy Chapman]

Sonja,
Do they have a web site?
Cheers
Judy

--- Sonja & Barry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Cath & Mary,
> I purchased the hanging baby scales and sling from a company
> called "in his hands".  they are based in Texas but they only
> took about 3-4 days to arrive.  The scales are digital and
> about the size of a cigarette packet and weigh in both grams
> and kilos upto 30kg.  They scales cost $35US and the sling
> cost $15US.  Postage was another $10US.  I love them and can't
> wait to weigh some babies!!
> Sonja


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RE: [ozmidwifery] getting synto etc

[Judy Chapman]

I have had the woman go to her GP and get a script. Only one so
far and that was ok, she also got a script for the Vit K. 
Re charges. As far as I know they vary very widely over the
country. I have only just started up and the first couple were
cheaper than the next one I have booked. I found that with the
distances I am travelling and the cost of fuel anyone who books
more that 50 km away from my home will need to add extra to the
basic price. For all so far I have had a minumum of an hour's
drive each way and that is exy. 
cheers
Judy

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> cath nolan
> Sent: Tuesday, 14 November 2006 9:13 PM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: [ozmidwifery] getting synto etc
> 
>  
> 
> I have a few births at home coming up and was wondering about
> synto and
> other drugs in my kit. How do others purchase them? Do I have
> to have a
> script from a doctor? The other issue that I do find difficult
> is the issue
> of cost for homebirth.Others I have been involved in have been
> for friends
> and colleagues. Does anyone have a schedule of payment and
> cost that they
> use? I am meeting with a couple on Monday and would love to
> have a bit more
> idea. Any feedback will be greatly appreciated,
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks Cath
> 
> 


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Re: [ozmidwifery] NO Births

[Judy Chapman]

Hush Hush was tried in mareeba but it leaked!! Tut, Tut. 
Cheers
Judy

--- brendamanning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hush Hush is how these things happen.
> Same is about to happen to Rosebud midwifery but it's being
> kept quiet because we are 2 weeks from an election & it'll
> "affect the voting " ! 
> How's that ??
> 
> With kind regards
> Brenda Manning 
> www.themidwife.com.au
> 
> 
> With kind regards
> Brenda Manning 
> www.themidwife.com.au
> > BEGIN:VCARD
> VERSION:2.1
> N:;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> FN:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ORG:themidwife
> TEL;HOME;VOICE:0359862535
> TEL;CELL;VOICE:0409194623
> TEL;HOME;FAX:0359862535
> EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> REV:20061113T121222Z
> END:VCARD
> 


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RE: [ozmidwifery] Rest phase before 2nd stage

[Judy Chapman]

I have seen it also and consider it normal. Psychology can play
a part. Two women, both friends, in the last year, waited at
that point for their rushed midwife to travel 60-90 mins to
reach them for the birth. Both started pushing within minutes of
her arriving. One at home, one at a rural hospital with another
midwife in attendance in case I could not make it.  
Cheers
Judy

--- Mary Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I think this was a recent discussion?  I have seen if often
> enough to
> recognize it as a normal part of labour.  some women need 10
> mins, some 2
> hrs and even longer.  It is all about being aware and alert to
> the woman and
> baby's condition.  MM
> 
>  
> 
>   _  
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Kristin Beckedahl
> Sent: Sunday, 22 October 2006 9:51 AM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: [ozmidwifery] Rest phase before 2nd stage
> 
>  
> 
> I know this was recently discussed on the list - but I was
> wondering how
> long you lovely midwives have seen this occur for within a
> natural labour?
> 
> I remember mine lasting about 10mins (enough time to get out
> of the car -
> not a great place to do transition! - and into BC)
> 
> What is considered too long? 2 hours?  What are the 'typical
> time limits' -
> when would risk factors be considered?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Kristin    
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   _  
> 
> Research and compare new cars side by side at carpoint.com.au
>   
> 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Trivial ? For hosp midwives

[Judy Chapman]

Hi Lisa,
In our small rural hospital the MW fills in the bit on the birth
reg papers regarding the date, Hospital, wt and MW, we also fill
out the centerlink form and give it all to the woman with the
baby's personal health record (Qld),Community health and sids
stuff and various other educational stuff. 
Cheers
Judy


--- meg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi Lisa,
> At our hospital the parents fill the birth reg papers out. The
> midwife fills
> in the centrelink declaration and the ward clerk puts together
> a pack for
> the parents but they need to fill it in.
> 
> Regards,
> Meg.
> - Original Message -
> From: "LJG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 8:42 AM
> Subject: [ozmidwifery] Trivial ? For hosp midwives
> 
> 
> > Hi all - am wanting to  ask a silly question - when do you
> give out the
> > birth registration forms and who fills them in? i.e. is this
> done by m/ws
> or
> > ward clerks??
> > Thanks
> > Lisa
> > Feel free to pm me
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
> > __ NOD32 1.1816 (20061019) Information __
> >
> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
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> >
> 
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RE: [ozmidwifery] blood gasses and other policies

[Judy Chapman]

Ramona,
She may have to fight tooth and nail not to let the baby out of
her sight this time. Only way to make sure formula is not given.
Hope she succeeds this time. 
Cheers
Judy

--- nunyara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi Barb
> 
>  
> 
> I had a client just last week for a pregnancy massage.  She is
> 31 weeks and
> this is her second child.  She breasted her first bub until
> she was about 18
> months old.  However, she is TERRIFIED - not about the birth -
> but about her
> new baby being given formula whilst it is in hospital. 
> Apparently, this
> occurred with her first baby but without her knowledge and
> consent.  At the
> time, she was absolutely furious that this had occurred
> because she had let
> everyone know how very keen she was to breastfeed.  When she
> asked why this
> happened, she was given a variety of different reasons ranging
> from baby was
> hungry to a mere shrug of the shoulders.  She spoke to her obs
> about it and
> he did not seem to be concerned about "all the fuss".  She
> couldn't
> understand why no-one seemed to think it was an issue because
> it was - for
> her.  In fact, she got really angry while talking about it
> during the
> massage and then she started crying - still upset after almost
> 3 years!!!
> 
>  
> 
> Ramona Lane
> 
> Nunyara Healing
> 
>  
> 
>   _  
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Barbara Glare &
> Chris Bright
> Sent: Sunday, 15 October 2006 9:43 AM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: [ozmidwifery] blood gasses and other policies
> 
>  
> 
> HI,
> 
>  
> 
> Interesting conversation about blood gasses. I frequently get
> reports from
> mothers and health professionals that they gave birth in a
> Baby friendly
> hospital, or a hospital with clear policies on breastfeeding,
> but that
> babies are given infant formula often without their parents
> consent, or not
> with their parents INFORMED consent.  This always intrigues me
> greatly.
> There seem to be no repercussions for staff who go against
> breastfeeding
> policies.  Reasons I have heard for staff giving babies
> formula when I've
> asked midwives why they gave a baby formula include "the other
> midwife told
> me the baby was hungry", we didn't want to disturb the mother
> etc. Mothers
> tell me they were told that staff didn't want to wake/disturb
> the mother -
> they knew she was tired.  Told she had no milk.  Told the baby
> was hungry
> and needed something. And, my personal favourite, "it's OK, at
> this hospital
> we give babies the formula that is closest to human milk" 
> Rarely are they
> told WHY the midwife thinks these things. These are babies who
> are well,
> don't even start me on babies in the nursery where parent's
> rights seem to
> go right out the window. Some parents I have spoken to are
> very upset and
> angry.  I wonder why breastfeeding policy is in a *different*
> category in
> most hospitals?  Do others find this?
> 
>  
> 
> Barb
> 
> 




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Fwd: term breech trial

[Judy Chapman]

I have given them Maggies book and they have read it and still
choose CS. They are s scared by what the Dr's say. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Janet Fraser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Re: [ozmidwifery] Fwd: term breech trial
> Consumers:  Put it out there that breech does not necessarily
> equal c/s and continue to mount the arguments of the furphy of
> risk (for much of obstetrics).  Support women we meet to
> demand choice.
> 
> Yes yes! I haven't seen one woman decide to have a vb for
> breech in the system yet. If the staff don't scare them with
> how surgery is safer, they're too scared to even try because
> the staff tell them they have no skills to catch breech
> babies. No win situation. There are lots of scarred bellies
> for breech among women I know and in our anti-VBAC climate
> that is of particular concern for their future birthing
> careers.
> J
> 




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] IUGR

[Judy Chapman]

Is it really IUGR Kelly? Maybe like a greyhound, healthy but no
spare fat. At 36 weeks babies are taking on their genetic
predisposition to weight and this baby's may be small, like its
siblings. 
Serial US, some say they can cause IUGR!!! 
Cheers
Judy

--- "Kelly @ BellyBelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> A mum and dear friend I am supporting is due on November 9th
> and has had two
> previous IOL for IUGR. At her scan today, she said:
> 
> 
> "Head Circ around 31cm just a couple of days off Gestational
> Age... aka
> perfect
> Leg bone length - Perfect about 4 days off Gest Age
> BPD (not sure what that is) - Approx a week under Gest Age
> Amnio Levels - Perfect 
> Blood flow through cord - Perfect
> AC (stomach circ) - 4 weeks below gestational age - she
> checked it 3 times. 
> 
> So they graphed it and the computer automatically plotted it
> and gave a
> weight reading. 
> 
> 4lb 11oz the computer was saying give or take 13% on each side
> of that. So
> looks like another tiny baby on my hands. Now we have to sit
> and wait what
> they say at my next antenatal appointment, at my last she said
> if there is
> an issue she may call me in early.
> 
> They checked this scan against Kameron and Lachlans too at the
> same gest age
> and Ashton is not far off what they were predicted for both
> the boys.
> Lachlan at 35wks 1 day they predicted 4lb 9oz. I am 35wks 5
> days today. So
> pretty much the same, so I am expecting a 6lb something to be
> born."
> 
>  
> 
> Can anyone offer and insight into this - is it an indicator
> that IUGR may be
> diagnosed again?
> 
>  
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
>  
> 
> Kelly Zantey
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] New Inventors birth seat

[Judy Chapman]

Thanks for the feedback Anne. 
Which one do the women seem to like the best? I have only used
the one from the birthinternational catalogue and it seemed to
work well for the women. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Anne Clarke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> Labouring women in my practice, over 20 of them, tried this
> birth seat (although without the back part) and women have
> found it not so useful as they cannot lean forward or move on
> it easily.  Also if a woman has generous proportions they find
> it difficult to sit on it and many women find it difficult to
> reach down to grasp the handles and it limits women where they
> want to grasp for support.  Looking at the video from the New
> Inventors program the back part appears to limit women's
> movement too - although I have not used it in association with
> the chair.  As you all know some women lean far back (or
> forward) sometimes leaning forward with a contration and then
> far back in their supporters arms to rest inbetween
> contractions, and sometimes using a different position with
> each contraction with her supporter moving in unison to
> accomodate, the back on the chair in the video does not look
> like it appears to be as accommodating.
> 
> I am all for women choosing to use a birth stool/chair if they
> find it does not inhibit movement of choice but not one of my
> clients who have tried this chair wanted to continue to use it
> e.g. when offered a different type of chair/seat these were
> found to be more accommodating.  
> 
> When quizzed at their postnatal debrief ALL of them said it
> was either uncomfortable - for various reasons - but what most
> of them commented on was that they could sit comfortably in it
> as they couldn't move around (forward/back).  So it appears if
> you want to sit back and straight to give birth it maybe not
> so useful to use.
> 
> I am not the only one in the practice that have found women
> have not liked using this chair and therefore it is gathering
> dust in the store room. We do have 2 other types of birth
> stool/chairs and find women happier with these less
> 'technical' choices.
> 
> Regards,
> Anne




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] No Contractions

[Judy Chapman]

Fantastic story Andrea. As I am just starting in home birth I
love hearing these variations from hospital stuff. 
Cheers
Judy
PS, bet she was pleased after the fact that you had not
immediately jumped to ring an ambulance. 


--- Andrea Quanchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Sometimes at home the women get just as despondent but the
> difference  
> is that no one is going to walk through the door and under
> mine me  
> and 'save' her.
> Last week I was with a women who was birthing at home after
> three  
> very different and for a variety of reasons not so great
> labours..  
> She had done a hypno birthing course and used the tools
> beautifully   
> and was so relaxed that I was not convinced that she was
> labouring  
> despite her telling me that the contractions were getting
> stronger  
> they were irregular and short.. She asked me to do a VE which
> showed  
> her Cx to be 75% effaced but 2 cm and quite tight. This really
>  
> annoyed her and when I suggested she rest she was opposed to
> this and  
> so I suggested the alternative was to  get up and get active
> and send  
> her uterus the message that she wanted it to get into gear
> rather  
> than the message that it was obviously getting from all her  
> relaxation tapes, breathing etc.
> Almost immediately she started rocking and rotating her hips
> quite  
> dramatically during contractions, she was in the kitchen with
> the  
> lights on as opposed to being in the bedroom in the dark where
> she  
> had been before.  The response was dramatic and the
> contractions  
> became co ordinated and strong and within 10 min she asked her
>  
> partner to run the bath.  She got in there and then became
> passive  
> again lying on her back and struggling with quite strong  
> contractions.  It was quite funny actually as after about half
> an  
> hour she opened one eye and told me I needed to call an
> ambulance as  
> she couldn't do this any more and needed to go to the
> hospital. ( For  
> those of you who haven;t been at a home birth women at home
> often ask  
> to go to the hospital in exactly the same way as women in
> hospital  
> often ask to go home).  She made no move to get out of the
> bath and  
> so at first I just ignored her but she became more insistent
> with  
> each contraction so eventually I pointed out to her that she
> couldn't  
> go anywhere while she remained lying in the bath and that if
> she  
> wanted to go to the hospital she needed to get out of the bath
> and  
> into the car as ambulances were for emergencies and this was
> not an  
> emergency. She did stand up then and get out of the bath,
> leaned  
> against me for two contractions as I helped her dry herself
> and then  
> I asked her did she want to have the baby in the bedroom or in
> front  
> of the fire in the lounge. She just looked at me and said the
> lounge.  
> So we moved there, she leaned over the ball and had the baby.
> All  
> this on 90 min since the VE.
> 
> Andrea Quanchi
> 
> On 07/10/2006, at 12:02 AM, Lisa Barrett wrote:
> 
> > Hi Sue,
> >
> > Thanks for sharing the information.  Your right it is almost
>  
> > impossible to avoid active intervention when birthing in the
> system  
> > even with great midwives like yourself supporting.  Part of
> the  
> > problem appears to be the lack of belief that waiting and
> doing  
> > nothing is going to work.  Some multips don't have full on
> labour  
> > until transition.  It is possible that when the head sits
> firmly on  
> > the cervix the contractions will pick up. I have not ever
> had to  
> > wait 12/15 mins from birth of a head to birth of a body.
> > Physiology tells us that the uterus clamps down immediately
> after  
> > birth.  I don't think you'd wait another 12/15 mins for the
> uterus  
> > to contract after the birth and that's if you don't do an
> active  
> > third stage.
> >
> > It is not so hard to do other things when sytno drip isn't
> an  
> > option and you have no-one but yourself and the woman to
> trust in  
> > ( no idiot specialist in complications when your the
> specialist in  
> > the normal I mean).
> > I think I have the easy job when it comes to midwifery
> because I  
> > know I'm the specialist in normal and I don't answer to
> anyone on  
> > that score.  Politics with birthing as far out of the system
> as I  
> > do is another thing altogether but in the birth space with
> women it  
> > isn't an issue.  I chose to work like this because it's less
>   
> > waring than having to say F**k off to drs all the time.
> >
> > Lisa Barrett
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] No Contractions

[Judy Chapman]

Lisa, I am sure you have said what many of us think. I have
worked like that for years and one gets sick of the tightrope
all of the time. I am so glad that I am now working without drs,
it is just protocols now. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Lisa Barrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi Sue,
> 
> Thanks for sharing the information.  Your right it is almost
> impossible to avoid active intervention when birthing in the
> system even with great midwives like yourself supporting. 
> Part of the problem appears to be the lack of belief that
> waiting and doing nothing is going to work.  Some multips
> don't have full on labour until transition.  It is possible
> that when the head sits firmly on the cervix the contractions
> will pick up. I have not ever had to wait 12/15 mins from
> birth of a head to birth of a body.
> Physiology tells us that the uterus clamps down immediately
> after birth.  I don't think you'd wait another 12/15 mins for
> the uterus to contract after the birth and that's if you don't
> do an active third stage.
> 
> It is not so hard to do other things when sytno drip isn't an
> option and you have no-one but yourself and the woman to trust
> in ( no idiot specialist in complications when your the
> specialist in the normal I mean).
> I think I have the easy job when it comes to midwifery because
> I know I'm the specialist in normal and I don't answer to
> anyone on that score.  Politics with birthing as far out of
> the system as I do is another thing altogether but in the
> birth space with women it isn't an issue.  I chose to work
> like this because it's less  waring than having to say F**k
> off to drs all the time.
> 
> Lisa Barrett
> 
>  
> 




 
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RE: [ozmidwifery] intact peri

[Judy Chapman]

With regard to Mary's comment. We had a primi birth in water a
couple of days ago, 4375 gm and peri intact, just a messy labial
tear I tacked together. No direction for the pushing or not
pushing at all, just moving as she wished (actually, I did tell
her to keep her bum IN the water, not go in and out)
Cheers
Judh

--- Mary Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Not so clear cut.  On the whole it means not directed, as many
> of the women
> I care for are on their knees in a water tub and I can’t see
> their perineum.
> I talk about this during their pregnancy and try to remind
> them to “go
> gently”.  I find that women who are free to move their body as
> they choose
> (water is great for this) are able to be in touch with what
> they need to do.
> Does this mean hundreds of intact perineums?  No.  It means
> that sometimes
> there is a tear and sometimes not.  A hard question to get the
> right answer.
> MM
> 
>  
> 
>   _  
> 
> A little off-topic – when you don’t do directed pushing you do
> not tell a
> woman when to push, but do you tell her when not to push? Or
> another way to
> put it – does directed pushing only include telling a woman
> when to push, or
> telling her when not to push as well?
> 
>  
> 
> Vedrana
> 
>  
> 
>   _  
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Mary Murphy
> Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 4:59 AM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] intact peri 
> 
>  
> 
> Hi Paivi, I cannot give you statistics of homebirth as I do
> not have
> immediate access to them. I will see if we have any stats on
> our service
> that I can access.  Just in general, the main way to protect
> the perineum is
> not to tell the woman to push, but to allow her to use her
> natural open
> glottis pushing, an keep hands off.  At home we do not do
> directed pushing.
> I cannot speak for birth centres, but their philosophy is much
> the same.
> Each midwife does different things, but it is not usual to use
> compresses or
> perineal massage during birth.  Is that what you have found
> Jan?  I wouldn’t
> put too much weight on the Bastian research as not all of us
> completed her
> surveys.  I personally have done 3 episiotomies in 24 yrs, but
> would do one
> if I thought necessary.  Hospital midwives will have to answer
> the one about
> epidurals.  MM
> 
>  
> 
>   _  
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Päivi
> Sent: Monday, 2 October 2006 4:54 AM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: [ozmidwifery] intact peri 
> 
>  
> 
> Hi all,
> 
>  
> 
> I am writing an article on episiotomy. I need to know what is
> the % of
> intact perineum among homemidwifes or birth centres? This is
> when the mother
> is having a natural birth.
> 
>  
> 
> Does this change if the mother has an epidural and is having
> the baby in a
> hospital? What I mean is that how much can the hospital
> midwife do to save
> the perineum if the mother has opted for epidural? Is it still
> mainly to do
> with the skills of the midwife? Or is it a harder job with a
> medicated mom?
> 
>  
> 
> Do you all practise hot compresses, perineal massage with oil
> (during birth)
> / perineal support?
> 
>  
> 
> What is the % of intact peri in a waterbirth?
> 
>  
> 
> Many questions... Thank you for any ideas or comments.
> 
>  
> 
> Päivi
> 
> 




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Belinda birth story

[Judy Chapman]

Fantastic. Had I had any idea one could do that 32 yrs ago I may
have tried to have the 4 childen I wanted. Instead I stopped
after 2 CS. It was just too hard. For that reason I always get a
glow of satisfaction when I hear these stories. 
Cheers
Judy


--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> getting back to birth - I had a great day today!
> I had a woman who lives out of town and has had two previous
> cesareans 
> sections have a beautiful birth at home of a chubby baby girl.
> After I had experienced a traumatic birth three months ago of
> a woman 
> who ruptured her uterus suddenly in second stage (in hospital)
> and a 
> traumatized but recovering mother and baby (long story) I had
> felt 
> anxious about birth and found myself second guessing myself
> all of the 
> time.
> Taking on this woman challenged me to either be the midwife I
> wanted to 
> be - that is trusting in women and supporting their decisions
> when they 
> have received all of the information, or allow myself to be
> engulfed 
> with fear and worry.
> This birth today was special for many reasons and healing for
> the mum 
> who was still emotional about her first two sections and
> desperate for a 
> vaginal birth, but it is I found also healing for me. I
> supported her 
> and cared for her and didn't let myself get caught up in the
> potential 
> fear that was hanging around me from my earlier trauma.
> 
> Thankyou so much to the SAIMA midwives especially Lisa, Tania,
> Larissa, 
> Julie, Milly and Rosie  - all of you really, who have
> supported me as I 
> worked through my fears and trauma, the offers of support we
> so 
> appreciated, thankyou Lisa and Rosie for offering to sit
> outside the 
> house just to support me, it was great knowing you would do
> that for me 
> XXX
> midwives are good to each other
> Love Belinda
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Inductions for post term

[Judy Chapman]

All the guide lines do say that there is increased risk above 42
weeks. 100%. Of what? I can't recall the figures offhand but say
from 1% to 2% is 100% increase but that means that 98% will be
ok. Also you need to be sure your dates are right. LMP certain?
USS dates after about 12 wks are very open to error, the further
the pregnancy has advanced the greater the error. 
If women are empowered there is ALWAYS the option to say NO.
They will be hasseled but if they are strong enough they can
keep saying no. We have some who do that, they are happy to be
monitored with CTG 2nd daily (though in reality that won't tell
you much). They are in tune with their body and just know babe
is ok. 
If you get a chance to see them before they come in for IOL,
remind them about their ability to say no and how that comes
with the responsability for the outcomes of that decision. 
Cheers
Judy
--- renee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi all, I'm trying to get some information, opinions re:
> inductions for post
> term pregnancies. As a student I'm finding the majority of my
> birth
> experiences are with women getting induced which I find a
> little
> disheartening. Instinctively I'm of the opinion that all being
> well then
> leave alone and I'm excluding any complications or increased
> risk factors
> here, but the more I dig around for arguments the more it
> appears that
> inductions after 42 weeks is best practice. I have read
> somewhere that true
> post term pregnancies accounts for about 2%. You would think
> its more like
> 25%, but anyway... 
> 
> At the hospital I'm doing clinical at, women are preemptively
> booked in for
> induction and are 'told' at an antenatal visit that if they
> haven't had
> there baby by a certain date then they will be going in for an
> induction.
> There isn't an option.
> 
> Do any of IM have women that get induced? I have read the
> research on
> cochrane and the NICE guidelines, and stats that say still
> births increase
> by 100%, and Im aware of the complexities around accurate
> dates etc, but it
> all just feels counter intuitive to me, but learning to base
> practice on
> evidence means often having to re-asses my own beliefs about
> these things,
> and not having the experience, I cant really form a judgment.
> Any help
> opinions on the matter would be most welcome.
> 
> The rocky road to learning hey!
> 
> 
> This might have been a discussion in previous postings, if so
> and anyone
> remembers it could you let me know approx time.
> 
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RE: [ozmidwifery] OMG what next?

[Judy Chapman]

Only in the US. The other item looked a bit expensive to get out
here, the hands. 
Cheers
Judy
--- Melanie Sommeling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Don't forget they have free postage and handling :-) 
>  
>   _  
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Mary Murphy
> Sent: Saturday, 2 September 2006 21:11
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] OMG what next?
>  
> Just to play devils advocate, what is so terrible about
> something that helps
> women do what they are already being instructed to do??  "Put
> your hands
> behind your knees, pull your legs up against your chest, put
> your chin on
> your chest, close your mouth and push as hard as you can down
> into your
> bottom".  This guy has just made an aid to make all those
> instructions a
> little easier to follow.  I think it is the perception of need
> for such an
> aid that is awful.  MM
>  
>  
> That is just awful!
> Shelly
> 




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] from MIDIRS

[Judy Chapman]

tut tut Mary. Why would you think that, if you think there is no
other way to do 'the job' than to induce? (says she cynically)
cheers
Judy

--- Mary Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Predictors of cesarean section following elective post-dates
> induction of
> labor in nullipara with uncomplicated singleton vertex
> pregnancies - Saudi
> Medical Journal , vol 27, no 8, August 2006, pp 1167-1172
> Edris FE; von
> Dadelszen P; Ainsworth LM; et al - (2006) OBJECTIVE: Although
> post-dates is
> among the most common indications for induction of labor, no
> studies have
> identified the predictors of cesarean section (C/S) in that
> population. The
> high cesarean rate in our institution for this group of women
> triggered us
> to assess different induction practices to elicit potential
> causes. METHODS:
> We conducted a hospital-based retrospective cohort analysis
> using chart
> reviews of all nullipara women with induced labor at the
> Children's and
> Women's Health Centre of British Columbia, Vancouver, Canada,
> during the
> 2-year period, April 1998 to March 2000. The C/S rate was
> compared among 3
> groups of women who were divided according to their induction
> method.
> RESULTS: Three hundred and thirty-nine women meeting the
> inclusion criteria
> were induced. Of the 25 women who received oxytocin ideally
> and the 111
> women who did not, 7 (28%) and 53 (48%) were delivered by C/S,
> (x2=3.228
> p=0.07; relative risks 0.59 [95% confidence interval 0.30,
> 1.13]). A
> significantly lower C/S rate (x2=21.9, p<0.0005) was found
> among women
> induced with prostaglandin (PG) alone (19.4%) compared with
> those induced
> with PG and oxytocin, whether oxytocin was given ideally
> (38.3%) or not
> ideally (45.4%). Of women who received oxytocin, there was no
> difference in
> chorioamnionitis (x2=0.485, p=0.49) between those who had an
> early membrane
> rupture (with or pre-oxytocin, 22.4%) and those who had
> membrane rupture
> following a period of oxytocin infusion (18.5%). CONCLUSION:
> The need for
> oxytocin or less than 2 doses of PG is associated with
> increased risk of
> C/S. Whether oxytocin was given according to protocol
> (ideally) or not, made
> no difference to the C/S risk in this population. (Author)
> 
>  
> 
> Am I dumb, or is it them?  I would think that the question is
> "is induction
> itself a predictor of C/S" MM
> 
> 




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] OMG what next?

[Judy Chapman]

It figures that an OB invented this one. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Päivi Laukkanen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What about this one?
> 
> http://www.pregnancystore.com/pushpal_birthing_aid.htm
> 
> Päivi
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Jo Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 5:30 PM
> Subject: [ozmidwifery] OMG what next?
> 
> 
> > http://www.pregnancystore.com/zaky.htm
> >
> > I think this is actually a real product...
> >
> > Jo
> >
> > --
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> unsubscribe. 
> 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Vaginal examinations

[Judy Chapman]

I would have to look up the guidelines, haven't read them for a
while. In practice, as few as possible. No point if she is not
in labour, or if you know she is progressing well anyway. Some
women really need to know where they are, I will do it if they
really want. That just leaves the women having a few problems,
then maybe 4 hourly unless clinically indicated earlier or
later. 
Cheers
Judy

--- "Sally @ home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Was wondering what guidelines others worked with regarding
> when to do 
> vaginal examinations...specifically in the hospital setting.
> And what 
> evidence they base their practice on.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Sally 
> 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] c/s and other stats for mid led units

[Judy Chapman]

Mareeba Maternity had recently compiled stats. You would need to
apply through Tableland Health Service District to access them. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Tania Smallwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  
> 
> Hi all,
> 
>  
> 
> Just doing a bit of my own research, and wondering if there
> are any stats
> yet for the newly formed midwifery led units such as Ryde, St
> George etc.  I
> have access to the ones that have been issued for the Women’s
> and Children’s
> in Adelaide (MGP), but I suppose there is also the Canberra
> one (is that
> still running) and also the Perth community midwifery
> programme.  Having
> just figured out what our personal stats for 5 years in
> practice together
> are, I’d like to be able to compare with these groups if the
> info is out
> there…anyone?
> 
>  
> 
> Tania
> 
>  
> 
> 
> -- 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/428 - Release
> Date: 25/08/2006
>  
> 







 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: info required

[Judy Chapman]

Joy,
It takes an enormous amount of intestinal fortitude to do what
you did, I admire you so much. I am so fortunate to work in a
place without doctors hanging around and messing things up.
Please draw strength from your (and our) belief that you did the
right thing and sleep well tonight. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Joy Cocks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear Amy, Sazz and Suzi,
> Thanks so much for your support, it means a lot to me and
> confirms what I know in my heart.  Haven't heard anything more
> today, but I've been out for the day.  However, still can't
> stop thinking about it.  Have my grandson coming for a
> sleepover tonight so maybe that will take my mind of this
> ridiculous situation - see, I'm feeling stronger already!
> Joy x
> 
> Joy Cocks RN (Div 1) RM IBCLC
> BRIGHT Vic 3741 
> email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: adamnamy 
>   To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
>   Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 11:11 AM
>   Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Fw: info required
> 
> 
>   If you were my midwife, I would be so grateful that I had
> someone who would truly advocate on my behalf and protect me
> from the attitude that I was hospital property during my stay
> there.
> 
>
> 
>   Hospital staff and doctors sometimes get their priorities
> mixed up don't they?
> 
>
> 
>   As a consumer, I say thanks and good on you for standing up
> for her.
> 
>
> 
>   Amy
> 
>
> 
> 
>
--
> 
>   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joy
> Cocks
>   Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:51 PM
>   To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
>   Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: info required
> 
>
> 
>   Pheewww..Peiter Mourik used to come to our hospital and
> give inservices when he held clinics there.  I would back up
> Wendy's comments.  He's very clever with words and is god's
> gift to women - always saving them!  He believes that midwives
> can only be independant when they can do forceps/ventouse
> births!  
> 
>   Sorry, negative comments after a bad evening when I stood up
> for a labouring woman who did not wish to have a VE when the
> GP ob wanted to do one as how else would he know whether she
> was progressing or not.  He's writing an incident report about
> me for not supporting him. He asked how I planned to manage
> the labour and I told him that the woman was managing the
> labour and I would be worried if she became worried. The woman
> proceeded to birth without problem.  Just feeling upset and
> hurt as he is my GP and we usually work well together, but
> probably most other women are not as strong in standing up for
> themselves.
> 
>   Joy
> 
>
> 
>   Joy Cocks RN (Div 1) RM IBCLC
>   BRIGHT Vic 3741 
>   email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> - Original Message - 
> 
> From: cath nolan 
> 
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
> 
> Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 10:28 AM
> 
> Subject: [ozmidwifery] Fw: info required
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> - Original Message - 
> 
> From: cath nolan 
> 
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
> 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 8:37 PM
> 
> Subject: info required
> 
>  
> 
> I will be meeting with Peter Miourik(obstetrician) amongst
> others in an informal dinner setting on Friday night as the
> hospital that I work at is having a review of obstetric
> services . I believe this is a man who is quite against
> midwifery led services and I'm a bit puzzled as to why I have
> been asked to be one of the 2 midwifery reps at this dinner.
> But very pleased at the same time, and more than happy to be a
> part of this. Can anyone fill me in on what they know of this
> man? Cath.
> 







 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Birth, Trauma & Personality

[Judy Chapman]

Have just found these:
http://childbirthsolutions.com/articles/pregnancy/birthsoul/index.php

http://childbirthsolutions.com/articles/pregnancy/lifelong/index.php

Cheers
Judy
 
> "Kelly @ BellyBelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Help! Someone started a discussion on my
> forums about birth and how it shapes the baby as an
> individual. Of course, everyone thought that concept was
> ludicrous, think studies and percentages are rubbish and must
> think I am a quack for thinking otherwise LOL J Can anyone
> else back me up?! I need some support!!! If you aren’t signed
> up in my forums, please feel free to, or post here any
> suggestions or comments. 
>
>   http://www.bellybelly.com.au/forums/showthread.php?t=17144
>   Best Regards,
> 
> Kelly Zantey
> Creator, BellyBelly.com.au 
> Gentle Solutions From Conception to Parenthood
> BellyBelly Birth Support -
> http://www.bellybelly.com.au/birth-support
>
> 
> 
> 
>  Send instant messages to your online friends
> http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 


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Re: [ozmidwifery] Isobel Joy has arrived...

[Judy Chapman]

Congratulations to you Janet and to the whole family. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Janet Fraser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Isobel Joy Stokes Fraser was born beautifully at home, in
> water, into her daddy's hands Thursday 13th July.
> 
> She weighs 3.7kgs and has taken to life earthside with
> remarkable alacrity!
> 
> Thanks to those who supported me through a challenging,
> lengthy labour. I couldn't have done it without you!
> 
> Photos as soon as they're uploaded.
> 
> From Janet, Trevor, Conor AND Isobel!
> 
> For home birth information go to:
> Joyous Birth 
> Australian home birth network and forums.
> http://www.joyousbirth.info/
> Or email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




 
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Re: FW: [ozmidwifery] AFI & perienatal outcomes

[Judy Chapman]

Lisa,
Thanks for this and the other articles. Will keep me reading for
a while, then I take them into work for distribution. 
Cheers
Judy



 
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Re: Fw: [ozmidwifery] Blood pressure...

[Judy Chapman]

I have to totally agree with you Janet. 
Trust MUST be earned and I think that if all women did not
inherantly trust the professionals caring for them, if they ALL
questioned everything and made the professionals give good
evidence based reasons for interventions, all had second
opinions if at all practical, we would not have our maternity
systems in such a mess. A truly confident professional should be
happy to answer all the questions and produce the evidenc when
asked for so that women feel that they have been listened to and
respected and really understand the need for interventions or
non-interventions which ever is the case. 
It is only today that I listened to the story of a women with
two previous CS, one for breech and the second for "you will
never do it naturally so you may as well have another CS" type
of cr*p from Drs at a previous hospital. She is grieving and
really wanting a VBA2C. I have directed her to various sources
of info including this list so I hope she doesn't mind me giving
a general outline if she has already joined. She will need to be
very strong, where I work we are only for low risk births and
can't book her. 
My two CS were late in the afternoon after induction, now that I
am an experienced MW I KNOW that I was not 'failing to
progress', I just was not going fast enought to be done by
dinner time. How can you inherantly trust OB's when that sort of
story is rife among women. 
Cheers
Judy
--- Janet Fraser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
>   By obtaining information from an internet
> > list and offering this in opposition to the care the woman
> receives from
> the
> > hospital can have a potentially damaging effect on her trust
> of the carers
> > at the hospital that she has chosen.
> 
> I'm afraid I see trust as something to be earned and trusting
> professionals
> because they're professionals is unwise. No one suggests we
> trust other
> professionals uncritically so why are midwives and doctors
> different? A
> second opinion is always recommended in other medical
> situations. Offering a
> woman genuine evidence that saves her and her baby from
> unnecessary
> intervention may not enhance her relationship with those she
> has employed
> but it might just save her life! Why should she uncritically
> trust
> everything she's told just because it's in a hospital?
> 
> 
>  The woman should take her birthing
> > plan and her queries regarding the blood pressure to the
> people at the
> > hospital, where she can discuss what an induction means and
> why she may or
> > may not need this.
> 
> No, this woman should seek outside sources to confirm for
> herself what she
> feels comfortable with, not ask the people who want to
> intervene. What will
> their response be? "Oh sure, we just offered induction because
> our time and
> motion issues and surgeons' timetables mean we prefer to
> induce women to our
> needs not theirs." Or will it be, "Yes, you're deathly ill and
> if we don't
> induce you your baby might die." I know the latter response is
> the one I
> hear most reported back from consumers.
> 
> > My defense over the interference in hospitals stands only on
> this- that
> > people interfere when they are concerned of the potential
> risk to the
> mother
> > and baby, if we did nothing we are also putting them at
> risk.
> 
> No, people interfere when the nexus of commerce, misogyny and
> ignorance
> around what birth really is comes together. We all know that
> rates of
> intervention in hospitals are way out of control and
> overservicing is the
> name of the game. You can't possibly be saying that primary
> c-sec rates are
> appropriate in this country and that all interventions are
> performed with
> pure hearts and women's lives in the balance? Birth isn't
> inherently
> dangerous but if you look at the outcomes in this country
> clearly birth in
> institutions is a risky business.
> 
> There are no excuses for our outrageous rates of intervention
> but every
> reason for our concomitantly poor outcomes. As WHO says, when
> all women are
> treated in high tech units as if they are high risk, outcomes
> are crap. Too
> true!
> 
> J
> --
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> unsubscribe.
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar

[Judy Chapman]

I prefer the term obstructed labour. Then one needs to properly
describe what the obstruction was, i.e. POP and not descending
despite best effors at positioning, etc. 
Or obstructed by medical ignorance of the natural process!
Cheers
Judy

--- brendamanning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> When women tell me they were C/Sd for FTP I always explain
> this to them as "your baby just couldn't come out
> because...??? I am looking for further information
> from them or imparting what I know of the situation which led
> to their surgery.
> I do NOT say: "you didn't dilate" ie it's your fault that your
> Cx 'failed' to open, or the baby to descend etc. Apportioning
> blame is not a productive exercise here.
> 
> FTP is a 'blanket term' for heaps of things as Janet says.
> It would be much more helpful to the women in understanding
> what's happened to them if we isolated the problem & specified
> it rather than put it all under 1 heading which by its very
> wording assumes the mother is somehow at fault !
> 
> With kind regards
> Brenda Manning 
> www.themidwife.com.au
> 
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Janet Fraser 
>   To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
>   Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 1:36 PM
>   Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar
> 
> 
>   There's a thread on JB called "FTP? FTW?" which has research
> on it and how FTP is, oddly enough ; ) not something normally
> recognised or "diagnosed" in midwifery. FTP is one of the main
> reasons in Australia for c-sec, the other two reasons being
> breech and previous surgery. Shocking.
>   J
> - Original Message - 
> From: Kelly @ BellyBelly 
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 1:35 PM
> Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar
> 
> 
> I'd love to use all three but I will stick with the one
> that women know well - most of the birth stories in our forum
> have that in it, unfortunately.
> 
>  
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Kelly Zantey
> Creator, BellyBelly.com.au 
> Gentle Solutions From Conception to Parenthood
> BellyBelly Birth Support -
> http://www.bellybellycom.au/birth-support
> 
> 
>

> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Janet Fraser
> Sent: Thursday, 6 July 2006 1:18 PM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar
> 
>  
> 
> It's really "failure to wait" and "failure to stop poking
> about"...
> 
>   - Original Message - 
> 
>   From: Kelly @ BellyBelly 
> 
>   To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
> 
>   Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 1:19 PM
> 
>   Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar
> 
>
> 
>   Oh yes we are having a big discussion about the wording
> after that post, and I told everyone I am going to write an
> article:
> 
>
> 
>   "Failure to Progress: Why Doctors Need to Move On"
> 
>
> 
>   LOL I will too ;)
> 
>   Best Regards,
> 
>   Kelly Zantey
>   Creator, BellyBelly.com.au 
>   Gentle Solutions From Conception to Parenthood
>   BellyBelly Birth Support -
> http://www.bellybellycom.au/birth-support
> 
> 
>
--
> 
>   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Janet Fraser
>   Sent: Thursday, 6 July 2006 11:16 AM
>   To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
>   Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar
> 
>
> 
>   What a bloody crock. Yes, that's a common protocol to
> wave at birthing women who'd be doing just fine with a bit of
> evidence based care. I've heard limits of 38 weeks (yes,
> really!) through to 41 weeks on the time a woman with previous
> surgery is told she's "allowed" to gestate before being
> forcibly sliced open. It depends on the hospital and whether
> or not she employs a private surgeon.
> 
>   Tell her to run for the hills if she wants to be safe.
> And don't get me started on the intrinsically offensive nature
> of that term... TOS - trial of service is what it really
> means!
> 
>   J <- whose sister is currently labouring for her HBAC at
> 42+4 without ANY crap like that!
> 
> - Original Message - 
> 
> From: Kelly @ BellyBelly 
> 
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
> 
> Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 8:25 AM
> 
> Subject: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar
> 
>  
> 
> Just wondering what guidelines exist for trial of
> scar. a woman on my site said that she has been given until 41
> weeks to give birth or she'll be having another caesarean. Is
> this right? I am sure I have heard otherwise and seen
> otherwise. 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Kelly Zantey
> Creator, BellyBelly.com.au 
> Gentle Solutions From Conception to Parenthood
> Belly

Re: [ozmidwifery] It's A Girl

[Judy Chapman]

Fantastic Katrina,
I hope you are really enjoying your munchkin and congratulations
on your wonderful birth. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Ceri & Katrina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi Everyone
> I was hoping to announce my news along with the birth story,
> but the 
> story will have to come later!  ;-)
> 
> Introducing my new little munchkin Lilly born @40+6
> Born last Saturday  24 June 2006
> Weighed: 3740grams
> HC 35.5cms
> Length 52cms
> 
> Labour was 3.5hours, mostly spent in the shower.
> No drugs, intact peri, breastfeeding well.
> 
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RE: [ozmidwifery] Low iron and inability to breastfeed?

[Judy Chapman]

We have recently been directed to use the ferretin level as a
measure to suppliment or not as it is more reliable that the Hb.
The OB argues that a woman may have adequate iron stores but
still show a low Hb in the blood but she does not need to take
extra iron.  If this woman's Hb does not come up despite
suppliments then she may have good stores anyway. 
I have seen many anaemic women successfully breastfeed and
recover very well without all that crap she has been threatened
with. 
cheers
Judy

--- leanne wynne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ignorance and arrogance are a bad combination!!
> 
> "...in fact concentrations of 95-115 g/L with a normal mean
> corpuscular 
> volume (84-99fL) should be regarded as optimal for fetal
> growth and 
> well-being and are associated with the lowest risk of preterm
> labour." Steer 
> PJ 2000 American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol 71, No 5,
> May
> 
> There is evidence to suggest that most doctors are too quick
> to promote iron 
> supplementation in pregnancy.
> Leanne
> 
> 
> 
> Leanne Wynne
> Midwife in charge of "Women's Business"
> Mildura Aboriginal Health Service  Mob 0418 371862
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >From: "Kelly @ BellyBelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> >To: 
> >Subject: [ozmidwifery] Low iron and inability to breastfeed?
> >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 13:34:03 +1000
> >
> >Yeah my jaw dropped too. any advice for this mum?:
> >
> >
> >
> >"I was wondering if anyone else has been told they would have
> trouble b/f 
> >as
> >their iron levels are too low? I'm due any day now and have
> never leaked or
> >had any signs that I will be able to produce milk... The
> midwife at the BC
> >told me that as my iron levels were below 100 I would have
> trouble b/f...
> >this has upset me greatly as I really want to be able to do
> this.. I was
> >wondering if she could be wrong, or if anyone else has had a
> similar
> >experience and what happened?"
> >
> >Best Regards,
> >
> >Kelly Zantey
> >Creator,   BellyBelly.com.au
> >Gentle Solutions From Conception to Parenthood
> >  
> > BellyBelly Birth
> Support -
> >http://www.bellybelly.com.au/birth-support
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] ctg stuff

[Judy Chapman]

So true Andrea. 
Many years ago a woman consented to be admitted with a
transverse lie at term but rejected any treatment. She was a
mulipara. Many times over the next week the dangers were
explained (such explanation was well documented) and she
declined CS. Finally she consented and it was scheduled for the
next day. That evening SROM and thick mec. Emergency CS and a
beautiful boy around 9 lbs was born. Died next day of Mec
aspiration pneumonia. She blamed the hospital. That left us
feeling bad but eventually she came to realise just what
happened and when she came an gave us a potted plant for the
ward we knew she had done a lot of work with her grief and was
starting to come out the other side. 
Cheers
Judy 

--- Andrea Robertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> One aspect of "choice" that needs to be considered is that
> even when 
> all the pros and cons are weighted carefully and a very
> "informed" 
> choice is made, there is no guarantee that the option chosen
> will 
> prove to be the best in the final analysis. Mistakes can still
> be 
> made and decisions thought to be the best can turn out to be
> the 
> worst.  This may result in an unexpected outcomes, but is part
> of 
> life and often leads to rapid and useful learning.
> 
> However, often when a poor choice leads to a bad outcome, the
> blame 
> starts flying and scapegoats are sought (part of the grieving 
> process). It can often be the mother who is blamed (for
> example in a 
> home birth) or the doctor, if the birth takes place in
> hospital.
> 
> For example, if a woman decided, after being told all the
> advantages 
> and disadvantages of an induction and is counselled on likely 
> outcomes, then still choose this option then I belive she must
> be 
> supported in her decision.  It still may turn out OK (Sally
> Tracy's 
> work showed that if a perfectly healthy mother chooses an
> induction 
> for no medical reason she has a 40% chance of coming through
> without 
> further intervention). If things do turn out unexpectedly and 
> complications arise, then this women needs support postnatally
> so 
> that she learns from the event.  However, she may be blamed or
> left 
> feeling guilty or depressed without supportive counselling
> with no 
> opportunity to learn how her decision, even though taken
> carefully, 
> was in the event not the best one she could have made.
> 
> I am all for choice and better options being made available. I
> also 
> believe that women will try and make the best decisions they
> can 
> given a chance, and even though they may decide to do things 
> differently than we would, they have a right to make those 
> choices.  Circumstances change too, and these may affect the
> decision 
> making process - labour can be much harder than anticipated
> and help 
> may be sought. This is where the options are really needed so
> that an 
> epidural is not the only option available, but baths, showers
> etc etc 
> are also at hand (and a lot of this will come down to
> midwifery 
> attitudes and skills).
> 
> This is a tricky area - "informed choice" is really a myth, as
> so 
> many vested interests come into play, but we must support
> women once 
> they have made a considered decision. To do less would be to 
> undermine her further and to miss the opportunity for
> learning, even 
> of some of those lessons are unpalatable at the time.
> 
> Not really expressing this well this morning.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Andrea
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 03:29 PM 17/06/2006, you wrote:
> >Dear Sue and all
> >
> >What an amazing thread!!
> >
> >Choice is the key.  The choices that are respected and funded
> are 
> >those that prop up the medical monopoly of the big business
> of birth.
> >
> >So all you wonderful midwives out there, start/keep saying 
> >it.  There are no rules or protocols for women, there is
> evidence 
> >and advice and a duty of care for midwives but at the end of
> the day 
> >a woman must be making the decision.  It is not until we have
> a full 
> >complement of choice from homebirth to elec c/s can we say
> that 
> >women are really making a choice.  Now it is choice within a
> vacuum 
> >of medical dominance.
> >
> >I heard an interesting thing re ADHD on the radio the other 
> >day.  The researcher said "if we only ask Drs we will only
> ever get 
> >a medical response".  Nothing new but nicely put.  By
> continuing to 
> >defer to medicos when the majority of us have no medical
> condition 
> >we will never make lasting change.
> >
> >I believe some midwifery stars were recently at a conference 
> >espousing the benefits of managed 3rd stage and justified by
> saying 
> >physiological could only ever be considered when things were
> totally 
> >natural so there was no real point etc.  Whilst I understand
> the 
> >pragmatics of that comment and the reality of the current
> system.  I 
> >find this a real sell-out and on par with the CTG argument
> and many others.
> >
> >Just because something is the majority d

Re: [ozmidwifery] Kath's story

[Judy Chapman]

I just love hearing stories like that Andrea. Congratulations to
you both. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Andrea Quanchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I was 'with' a woman on thursday night when she birthed that
> left me  
> on a real high
> Kath has been seeing me for her whole pregnancy and we had
> discussed  
> birthing at home many times but she had decided that she
> wanted to go  
> to the hospital to birth.
> "perhaps if it was my second baby I might have it at home' she
> said.   
> Despite this I kept picturing her birthing at home and was
> puzzled  
> why because I don't try and change women's minds or convince
> them of  
> one way or the other but point out the advantages and
> disadvantages.
> 
> She let me know wednesday night that she had had a few niggles
> and on  
> thursday morning that she was leaking. I visited after lunch
> and then  
> left her to it. She rang at 7pm to say that the liquor was
> pink  but  
> that they were OK for now, At 9pm they rang and asked me to
> come.
> I arrived at 9:15 pm to find her leaning over her bed having
> strong  
> contractions but she was able to chat to me easily between
> them. She  
> did tell me they were pretty strong but she felt she had ages
> to go  
> yet! We chatted, checked her BP FHR etc and I watched her to
> try and  
> assess where she was up to.
> 
> She went to the loo at 9:45 and as I listened to her she made
> a noise  
> that got my attention. I asked her about it but she denied any
> urge  
> to push and then told me she just needed to open her  
> bowels!   I asked her to have a feel in her vagina
> and  
> she said she could feel something hard!  because she
> had been  
> so adament  that she wanted to birth at the hospital  I donned
> a  
> glove and had a quick feel.   I said well there's two choices
> we can  
> have the baby here or you can have it in the car because
> there's no  
> way your making it to the hospital. She looked at me with a
> grin and  
> said well I'd rather stay here than do that. So we did and ten
>  
> minutes and three pushes later James arrived much to his
> parents  
> amazement and his midwives amusement.
> 
> The whole thing was great, she sat up in bed an hour later and
> said  
> well I'd do that again as she put her baby to the breast
> without any  
> fuss.
> Three days later they are all loving every minute of their
> whole  
> experience and I feel truely blessed to have been part of it.
> 
> Andrea Q
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Re:

[Judy Chapman]

Penny, 
Does it have to be supplements. Could it be a good wholesome
diet including good sources of Vit K? 
cheers
Judy

--- penny burrows <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> One thing that I wonder about: 
> Routine supplementation with any vitamin seems to be a bad
> idea for pregnant women as well as for babies. Do we know the
> effects of supplementation with vitamin K on pregnant women?
> What intricate balances might this be upsetting? It seems like
> this could be another, if more natural form of blanket
> treatment.
> 
> If we truly believe that mother nature has designed things
> well and the newborn low levels are there for a reason, then
> do we want to boost the levels available in mum's milk?
> 
> More to ponder,
> Penny 
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Sue Cookson 
>   To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
>   Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 8:11 PM
>   Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Re:
> 
> 
>   Hi,
>   With the new Konakion MM it's the other way around. It has
> been designed by increasing it's absorbability in fat to be
> more affective if given orally. It has NOT been proven to be
> as effective as the old Konakion in being absorbed by the IM
> route. They are waiting to see if the surveillance of the new
> Konakion through Australia, Switzerland and a few other
> countries is as effective IM as it is oral. The oral route has
> been found to give a higher vit K cover than the IM route over
> a few weeks.
> 
>   THere is so much misinformation about vit K. It is available
> to the baby through breastmilk and maternal supplementation
> does increase neonatal serum K levels. What more do we want??
> 
>   And by the way, all formla fed babies should be excluded
> from any study due to the addition of vit K to formulas. ie
> babies planned to be formula fed do not need vit k!!
> 
>   Sue
>   student midwife
>   birth practitioner
>   vit K has been my research assignment for the past three
> years
> 
> If a solution is designed to be given IM is it absorbed
> effectively if given via the GI tract ?
> No mention of this in the literature accompanying the
> Konakion.
> Most IM meds are NOT designed to be administered or guaranteed
> by the pharmaceutical company to be effective if given orally.
> It may be neutralised by gastric secretions, I am unaware of
> any research re this.
> Anyone else know of any ?
> 
> If you are going to introduce a foreign substance into the GI
> tract of a baby you'd want to have a good reason & be sure
> that it was being absorbed  wouldn't you ?
> 
> With kind regards
> Brenda Manning 
> www.themidwife.com.au
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "diane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 6:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: 
> 
> 
>   Apart from the fact it tastes like Sh** (very bitter). Been
> reading about 
> Vit K all day today . Seems like a pretty good option as far
> as the 
> statitistics go.
> http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/publications/_files/ch39.pdf
> 
> they recommend further research into the effectiveness of
> supplimenting 
> brestfeeding mothers to increase the vit K in breastmilk as an
> effective 
> suppliment.
> 
> Di
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Kelly @ BellyBelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 5:30 PM
> Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Re:
> 
> 
> Just a side question if that's okay - what are your
> opinions on oral 
> vitamin
> K versus injection?
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Kelly Zantey
> Creator, BellyBelly.com.au
> Gentle Solutions From Conception to Parenthood
> BellyBelly Birth Support -
> http://www.bellybelly.com.au/birth-support
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Andrea Quanchi
> Sent: Friday, 26 May 2006 3:24 PM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: [ozmidwifery] Re:
> 
> The place I work we give it when we do the NST. It was a
> midwife
> decision not an evidence based one.  Like giving it with the
> vit K it
> is easier to do it at a predictable time so that it doesn't
> get
> overlooked.  The midwives wanted not to do it at birth as they
> were
> wanting to do as little as possible to interupt Mum and baby,
> As we
> need to have a signed consent form to give it and the mothers
> have
> often not filled this is prior to birth it was very
> interupting to
> get all this"Done" on the birth day and we find it not an
> issue later
> when everyone has had time to sit down read the literature and
> discuss it.  Of course then we do have a number of mums who
> decline
> to have it which is their right and is not an issue at all.
> Andrea Q
> On 25/05/2006, at 8:10 PM, Amanda W wrote:
> 
>   Hi all,
> 
> I have just started working at a new health facility that
> tends to
> give hep B injections on day 2 or 3. I have come from a
> facility
> that gives hep B at birth when vitamin k is given. Can anyone
> shed
> some light as to why the might do it this way. Any articles.
> They
> seem to not know why the

Re: [ozmidwifery] RE:

[Judy Chapman]

Another reason for not giving something you have not checked and
drawn up yourself. 
cheers
Judy

--- Melissa Singer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi Amanda,
> 
> I have worked places where they don't give Vit K until mum and
> baby have 
> returned to the ward.  They changed their practice so babies
> are not given 
> any routine medication at all in birth suite (unless for
> resus) because 
> their have been a few instances where baby inadvertently and
> tragically was 
> given the mothers syntocinon.  A way in  this could happen is
> someone else 
> prepared the synto, accidentally leaves it on the resus
> trolley.  The 
> primary midwife is unaware and gets her own synto and the
> second midwife 
> thinks she is giving Vik K.
> 
> Regards,
> Melissa
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Nicole Carver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 6:35 AM
> Subject: [ozmidwifery] RE:
> 
> 
> > Hi Amanda,
> > Why not delay the Vit K and do both on day 1? We have just
> stopped giving
> > vit K and weighing the babe in the birth suite so that there
> is less
> > interruption to the early time between babe and parent/s and
> first breast
> > feed. We generally give Hep B on day 2 or 3 if the parents
> want the babe 
> > to
> > have it.
> > Regards,
> > Nicole.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
> Amanda W
> > Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 8:11 PM
> > To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> > Subject:
> >
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I have just started working at a new health facility that
> tends to give 
> > hep
> > B injections on day 2 or 3. I have come from a facility that
> gives hep B 
> > at
> > birth when vitamin k is given. Can anyone shed some light as
> to why the
> > might do it this way. Any articles. They seem to not know
> why they do it. 
> > I
> > just want to change practice so that can be done at the same
> time as the
> > vitamin k.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
> >
> > --
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Hep B, vit K

[Judy Chapman]

As far as I am award it IS the capture theory. Stick thousands
of babies with Hep B vax to maybe save one. 
For those who do consent at our hospital we give on the day of
the Neonatal screening. One of our midwives has looked into the
perinatal data in Qld and found that there were not figures for
babies who missed the birth dose and caught Hep B in the first
few months. 
We work on the premise that if it says on the hospital supplied
literature that babies may feel unwell and need extra fluids
after an immunisation, why are we doing that before they even
know how to suckle properly? Birth dose is classified as given
in the first week. The pressure to give 'at birth', before the
poor kid has had time to even draw breath properly, is so they
don't get lost in the system.
With midwifery clinics we are aware of women who live high risk
lifestyles and are at risk of defaulting when it may not be best
to do so and we just make sure that it is done before they go
home if it is before the neonatal screening. 
Cheers
Judy
 
--- Justine Caines <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear Mary and Amanda
> 
> Exactly Mary!
> 
> Amanda have you read Sara Wickham's work on Vit K?
> 
> What is the consent process for Hep B, Are parents aware of
> the specific
> populations of risk?
> 
> I must say the Hep B at birth really shocks me.  What are the
> risk factors
> for babies who are not in contact with those in high risk
> groups such as
> those already infected or sex workers and intravenous drug
> users?
> 
> It seems like a capture theory to me and I worry about the
> level of informed
> consent.
> 
> JC
> 
> 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] high GTT result?

[Judy Chapman]

Need more info. Is that the one hour result or the two hour
result. If it is the two hour result she needs a consultation
with a diabetic nurse or Dr and it is high. 
Cheers
Judy
--- Janet Fraser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi all,
> can someone clue me in on what's considered a high result to
> get from the GTT? I have a woman wanting to swap to hb from a
> BC where her GTT result is considered dangerously high and
> she's been told she's highrisk. It was 9.8.
> Thanks!
> : )
> J
> For home birth information go to:
> Joyous Birth 
> Australian home birth network and forums.
> http://www.joyousbirth.info/
> Or email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]







 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] massage in pregnancy

[Judy Chapman]

I guess this has already been answered but I have been overseas and am just now catching up.   When I did massage years ago I was taught not to massage a pregnant woman's belly, not because of the risk of miscarriage but because of the risk of being blamed if a miscarriage should subsequently occur. Made sense to me.   Cheers  JudyJanet Fraser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Hi all,  can anyone recommend a form of massage particularly beneficial in pregnancy? I've been in contact with a massage student who's been told that she must never on any account massage a woman in pregnancy as it can cause miscarriage.
 Personally I know that's a crock but I'd love to be able to give her better info, perhaps on traditional and well evidenced forms of massage in pregnancy.  TIA,  J  For home birth information go to:Joyous Birth Australian home birth network and forums.http://www.joyousbirth.info/Or email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [ozmidwifery] managed versus physiological 3rd stage, was: after birth pains

[Judy Chapman]

I have done quite a few physiological third stages and, like labours, are all different. Have had a couple of women who have been in a lot of pain until the placenta delivered, then it was cured. They complained of back pain. Both eventually asked for synto to get the placenta out and stop the pain and both times it still took a while to come after the synto.   Cheers  JudyNikki Macfarlane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  When you were with the mother who had the physiological third stage Nicole, was there any touching, pulling or tugging on the umbilical cord? If a caregiver is not commonly
 practicing a physiological third stage they may be putting cord traction on the cord (pulling gently) anf this can cause the pain you spoke of. I have had four physiological third stages and none have been overtly painful. I have seen hundreds and the only time the woman has mentioned pain is when the caregiver is pulling on the cord or putting pressure on the top of the uterus.     There is no reason why, if everything else is normal, you cannot decline synt until a time has been reached. A physiological third stage can take a lot longer - anything between a few minutes to 2 hours is still normal - although most hospitals would be uncomfortable waiting more than 30 minutes. There is no increased risk after 30 minutes - sadly, they are smply used to seeing a placenta come a lot quicker than that because managed care is the norm now. You can always choose to have the synt. 
    As with every other intervention, and with the option of expectant care, there are pros and cons and only you can now the acceptable option for you and your baby.     Nikki Macfarlane  Childbirth International  www.childbirthinternational.com
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Re: [ozmidwifery] PPH & C/S

[Judy Chapman]

She CAN always say no. How bad were the other PPH's? Enough to
really comprimise her? She is probably at risk of another but it
might still happen if she has a CS. 
Cheers
Judy

--- "Kelly @ BellyBelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
>  
> 
> A woman on my forums has had two normal births of big babies -
> 11lb3oz and
> 13lb5oz and had a PPH with both. Her Ob is now recommending a
> c/s with her
> third bub and wants a scan at 34 weeks as a deciding factor of
> this. She
> wants a normal birth - is it okay just for her to say no
> without too much
> risk with PPH?
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Kelly Zantey
> Creator,   BellyBelly.com.au 
> Gentle Solutions From Conception to Parenthood
>  
>  BellyBelly Birth
> Support -
> http://www.bellybelly.com.au/birth-support
> 
>  
> 
> 




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Larry

[Judy Chapman]

Speaking from Mareeba, we did ok, 40km north of the centre of the storm.   Bit scary going to work though at 0630.   Cheers  Judy  diane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Hi,   Hope you gals up North managed to weather the storm without too much damage this morning. Any new little Larry's born in the storm?     I was thinking of you, as I will be moving to N.Q at the end of the year ( beachside too, I wonder if thats a wise decision!!!).      I suppose you are all busy with!
  the
 clean up and waiting for power, so when you do get to read this, just know we were thinking of you all in N.Q     Cheers,  Diane   
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RE: [ozmidwifery] Re: N/A

[Judy Chapman]

I have to back up what Barb says. I used to live 40 mins from
work and had to go up the range to get home. After twice waking
on the wrong side of the road and once having an accident I
learned to have a power nap when I got tired on the drive home.
What a difference. Please don't take as long to learn as I did,
you might not be so lucky. 
I currently work in a small rural unit which is not always busy
so I always have some craft in the car, if I need it I go out
and get it to keep the mind busy and awake. I get more hungry
during the night so I have adequate food, as a weight watcher I
make sure they are not too unhealthy, and eat as necessary. For
me I find that if I don't sleep in the morning I don't sleep, so
I go straight to bed, curtains drawn, not hungry, warm\cool
enough and work on sleeping till 1500 - 1600. 
Cheers
Judy

--- B & G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Oh to have nights like this. Most night shifts where I am it
> is rare to
> even get a chance for a toilet break let alone something to
> drink. We
> have been trying for years just to get somebody to provide
> meal relief
> shifts in all three areas of Mid - BS, SCN and the ward which
> also has
> general clients to care for. We only have two staff in each
> area so when
> one is out doing an emergency LSCS or having to do transfers
> to the
> tertiary we are told 'just manage'! No luck thus far.
> Take care on the trip home. make sure you have a plan when you
> are
> simply so tired you start have mini naps on the drive. Pull
> over and
> sleep for at least 20 minutes.
> I have lost several good friends to MVA's due to falling
> asleep at the
> wheel over the years and I have myself 'woken' to see a tree
> heading for
> me!
> Cheers Barb




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] public-private birth centres

[Judy Chapman]

Interesting concept. Has he given any indication how he thinks
it would work? What is his reputation for birthing?
cheers
Judy

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Hi everyone, we have been approached by a doc here in the
> south west of
> WA about establishing a public/private birth centre, I am not
> aware of
> one in Australia but I could be wrong, if so could someone let
> me know
> how it works and any suggestions or thoughts on how it should
> work would
> be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Yours in midwifery,
> 
> Pete Malavisi
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Re: [ozmidwifery] of interest

[Judy Chapman]

They can't seem to get their head around women as individuals
and how each birth event should be treated individually and not
generalised into categories. 
cheers
Judy

--- Mary Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Isn't it interesting that "reasonably accurate" is acceptable
> in medical
> research.  One can see the scenario that risk scoring will be
> used to
> increase caesareans rather than avoid it. 
> 
>  
> 
> "New risk score predicts cesarean after induction
> Source: Obstetrics & Gynecology 2006; 107: 227-33
> 
> Simple scoring system may help decision-making when
> considering induction of
> labor. 
> 
> The risk of cesarean delivery after induction of labor can be
> predicted
> reasonably accurately using four simple measures, British
> obstetricians
> report. 
> 
> Elisabeth Peregrine and team from University College London
> Hospitals sought
> to develop a clinical model for predicting the outcome of
> labor induction.
> They evaluated maternal and ultrasound parameters in 267 women
> at 36 or more
> weeks of gestation immediately before induction of labor. 
> 
> The most frequent indication for induction was postdates, and
> 30 percent of
> the cohort subsequently required a cesarean delivery. 
> 
> In logistic regression analysis, four factors emerged as
> significant
> predictors of cesarean delivery: parity (odds ratio [OR] =
> 20.56), body mass
> index (OR = 6.17), height (OR = 0.94), and ultrasonic
> transvaginal cervical
> length (OR = 1.07).
> 
> Peregrine's team used these to develop a simple risk scoring
> system, whereby
> a score of -65 to -55 indicates a more than 80 percent
> likelihood of
> cesarean delivery, and a score of -165 to -146 indicates a
> less than 1
> percent chance. 
> 
> The model has "reasonably good discriminatory ability," say
> the
> investigators, who conclude that it may allow more accurate
> counseling and
> better informed consent in the decision-making process when
> considering
> induction of labor."
> 
> Posted: 22 February 2006
> 
>  
> 
> 




 
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RE: [ozmidwifery] pelvic floor information

[Judy Chapman]

Skipping isn't bad either if you don't have a trampoline on tap.

cheers
Judy

--- Megan & Larry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ideally we all can benefit from pelvis floor excercises,
> including men.
>  
> My dad had his prostate removed recently for cancer and I told
> him to start
> and excercise his pelvic floor pre-surgery to help with his
> recovery. He
> told his specialist what I said and he thought it was an
> excellent idea.
> Interestingly my Dad noticed improvement with his "weeing"
> just from this
> and did have a good recovery.
>  
> Anyway, just my two bits,
>  
> Megan
>  
> PS trampolines are an excellent way to find out how strong
> your pelvic floor
> is, or isn't as you may find out. Hehehehe
> 
>   _  
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Kylie Carberry
> Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 4:03 PM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: [ozmidwifery] pelvic floor information
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I was wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction
> with some
> research I am doing for a story on the importance of pelvic
> floor exercises.
> A lot of women are led to believe - I guess, by scalpel-happy
> OB's - that a
> weakened pelvic floor can be avoided a by having a c-section. 
> I recall,
> some time last year, reading an article disproving this
> theory, but, of
> course cannot remember where I read it.  If there is anyone
> who can help me
> out here, I would greatly appreciate if you could let me know.
>  Any other
> thoughts on the topic would be welcomed also.
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> 
> Kylie Carberry 
> Freelance Journalist 
> p: +61 2 42970115 
> m: +61 2 418220638 
> f: +61 2 42970747
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Re: [ozmidwifery] A first for me

[Judy Chapman]

Fantastic Andrea. At times like that one wonders why you would
do any other job. It is such a buzz for me still after all these
years. For us at work they are not allowed to be planned
waterbirths but our women know that we can only recommend they
come out, we can't make them so they just stay put. It is so
peaceful. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Andrea Quanchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Today I had my first waterbirth.  It was so beautiful. All
> 4.8kg of  
> him manipulated his way out all by himself. Mum was able to
> describe  
> his movements to us in a running commentary even down to
> telling us  
> that the shoulders were rotating after his head was born.
> 
> tears in Dads ( and the midwives) eyes and complete awe on the
> face  
> of his 3 year old big sister ( who offered to put the slide
> into the  
> pool for mum). its such a buzz attending births like this.
> 
> Planned second midwife was away and so we invited one who had
> not  
> attended a homebirth ( or waterbirth) before and she is
> herself  
> pregnant so I can only hope she was inspired to great things
> for  
> herself.
> 
> I was glad that we had discussed  water birth at length in
> Maggie  
> Banks workshop last week  because I was not surprised when
> this baby  
> was so peaceful in the water that we actually had to remind
> him that  
> he needed to join those of us who breathe air. he just lay
> there in  
> his Mums arms looking around and didnt seem to get that idea
> for a  
> while.
> 
> Addicted to birth
> 
> Andrea Q
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Re: [ozmidwifery] fear

[Judy Chapman]

Yes, I have. 
When I was working in Saudi. Grand Multi, coule see the baby's
head at the introitus but she would not push, wanted a CS. 
It was a very interventionist place, a dribble of synto was
commenced, easy when all women had an IV, and eventually she
gave one big push and the baby came out. I could speak some
arabic but not enough to delve into the fears she had. Chances
are she had not wanted to be pregnant and possible did not
particularly want this baby. Or possibly the coming of the baby
would soon mean resumption of unwanted andvances from her,
possibly chosen for her, husband. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Ceri & Katrina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 05/02/2006, at 12:36 AM, Susan Cudlipp wrote:
> 
> > "What is your biggest fear right now?"  She didn't answer
> for a couple 
> > of contractions then suddenly burst out " My biggest fear is
> that I 
> > won't be able to birth the baby"  What do you know - lip
> went and baby 
> > started to appear!
> 
> 
> 
> This fascinates me too.
> Is is just a matter of verbalising that fear???  I know it
> sounds dumb, 
> but most women when questioned say that they fear the
> pain.no 
> denying that it is going to hurt, so is it a matter of just
> verbalising 
> it??
> 
> On a similar matter
> the last couple of weks, I have had 2 women simply stump me.
> One with 
> an epidural, one without. Both reached 9 then 10 cms dilation,
> and 
> decided they did not want to push. They were adament they did
> not want 
> to push, that they wanted "the baby pulled out"!!!  Despite
> reasurrance 
> that they could do it, and that unless they were unwell or the
> baby 
> distressed, they baby would NOT be pulled out and they
> certainly would 
> not be taken for a LSCS, they continued to say "No I dont want
> to 
> push", "I'm not going to push" "it is going to hurt too much!"
> 
> They eventually had the baby when the next shift took over,
> but I was 
> wondering if anyone else had encountered this before??
> 
> 
> 




 
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RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Judy Chapman]

Barb, 
So sorry to hear you have had such a shocking time. I can offer
no tips, not having been there myself but I pray that there will
come a time that you can settle into more normal pre-trauma type
of life. 
Cheers
Judy

--- B & G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> There is no 'cure' for PTSD!! You just learn to manage the
> triggers but
> even then the physiological responses sometimes get away from
> you. Some
> people wonder why you are so serious- so would you if you had
> this
> constant mind battle to control triggers.
> Barb- chronic PTSD sufferer, 8 years after an assault and
> prolonged
> torture by an unsupervised prisoner in an Intensive Care Unit.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jo
> Bourne
> Sent: Saturday, 4 February 2006 11:34 AM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support
> 
> 
> Talking therapies may be the only "cure", that certainly
> sounds right to
> me. However I can't imagine having been raped, assaulted OR
> traumatised
> by my birth experience and then wanting to do that talking in
> the place
> or with the people where it happened. Perhaps in the last
> stages of
> healing, as a final letting go/closure thing, but certainly
> not in the
> very first days of the shock. I did not have a remotely
> traumatic birth
> experience but have had other traumas in my life and have had
> a lot of
> talking to do about them, I can't think of one occasion I
> wanted to go
> back to the person/place that was the source of the trauma.
> 
> At 11:19 AM +1100 4/2/06, Janet Fraser wrote:
> >I remember it but I disagree with it entirely. It struck me
> as no more 
> >logical and useful than the obstetric refusal to offer OFP
> because a 
> >study showing a crude, almost silly form of it didn't have
> the desired 
> >effect. (10mins a day on hands and knees rather than the
> lifestyle 
> >operation that is true OFP) Talking therapies are pretty much
> the only 
> >"cure" for PTSD and that's been well demonstrated over and
> over. The 
> >one study showing otherwise holds no weight. J
> >
> >- Original Message -
> >From: Mary Murphy
> >To: 
>
>ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> >Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:58 AM
> >Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support
> >
> >I believe there is some research out there that looked at
> de-briefing 
> >women after birth, particularly traumatic births.  As I
> remember it,
> the research did not show that this debriefing had
> particularly helpful
> outcomes.  Of course it is all in the Who, the When and the
> How.  Does
> anyone remember it?  Mary Murphy
> > 
> >
> >Andrea wrote:
> >Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up
> appointment with the
> 
> >midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may
> have been
> part of the problem, should all women have a follow up
> appointment but
> the woman be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment
> with, at
> what stage would this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3
> months? How
> does this fit with the M&CH nurses who are now involved in the
> woman's
> on going care? How does her doctor, be it her own GP, obst or
> the one
> who attended (or not) her birth  be involved in this?
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jo Bourne
> Virtual Artists Pty Ltd
> --
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RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support

[Judy Chapman]

I am sure that debriefing helps even if it does not cure. I
remember one particular woman at my previous place of work who
rang me many times and needed to talk about her EM CS (possible
not necessary) and I felt sad for her when I left there as we
had not finished debriefing. I think it helped a bit but she was
still a bit of a mess. 
For my self, I would loved to have had a sympathetic ear, it
took me nearly 25 years to come to terms with the 2 CS that I
had. Fortunately I have been able to channel into midwifery,
trying hard not to let women get the raw deal that I had. 
Cheers
Judy


--- Nicole Carver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> HI Mary,
> I remember reading about that research and being surprised. I
> have discussed
> it with the psych nurse employed where I work, who spends time
> nearly every
> day with women who have experienced traumatic births (or
> perceived them to
> be even when we might not have called them such). She feels it
> does help.
> Even one visit can help women who want to understand what
> happened to them
> and why. Some require much more, and thankfully our maternity
> support
> workers are great with these women. However, it is a tragedy
> that we need to
> have these workers. They do also work with antenatal and
> postnatal
> depression.
> I can't remember the specifics, but I don't recall being
> particularly
> impressed with the methodology of the study that you mention.
> And if women
> want to talk about their experience they should be able to,
> whether it is
> formal debriefing or whatever. I suppose you don't want to
> treat all women
> the same, ie what is appropriate debriefing for one woman,
> would not
> necessarily work for another. If you did try to treat them the
> same it would
> not be surprising if it did not work.
> Nicole Carver.
>   -Original Message-
>   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mary
> Murphy
>   Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:59 AM
>   To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
>   Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Post cs support
> 
> 
>   I believe there is some research out there that looked at
> de-briefing
> women after birth, particularly traumatic births.  As I
> remember it, the
> research did not show that this debriefing had particularly
> helpful
> outcomes.  Of course it is all in the Who, the When and the
> How.  Does
> anyone remember it?  Mary Murphy
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

> --
> 
>   Andrea wrote:
> 
>   Any suggestions. Should all women have a follow up
> appointment with the
> midwife who was at her birth, is this appropriate as they may
> have been part
> of the problem, should all women have a follow up appointment
> but the woman
> be allowed to choose who she wants the appointment with, at
> what stage would
> this be appropriate, 2 weeks, 8 weeks 3 months? How does this
> fit with the
> M&CH nurses who are now involved in the woman's on going care?
> How does her
> doctor, be it her own GP, obst or the one who attended (or
> not) her birth
> be involved in this?
> 
> 
> 




 
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RE: [ozmidwifery] Weight gain in pregnancy

[Judy Chapman]

Sorry Nicole, but I was working on the premise gained from
research and the media that a large proportion of the obesity in
western society was directly linked to an increase in fats,
sugars and the volume of food available along with decreasing
exercise rates. 
There are always people with metabloic problems but I had
believed they were in the minority, not the majority. 
The woman I spoke of chose to start eating a better diet, not
'dieting', and to increase her exercise levels. I would not be
the one to tell her that she may not do that because of
'toxins'. 
Going back to the discussion last year on the problems of very
high BMI in pregnancy and problems anticipated with births was
another reason I would not tell her that she may not change her
(admitted by her) previous poor dietry habits. 
Cheers
Judy

--- B & G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >>> Given that it is usually poor diet and lifestyle that
> cause the
> obesity...Hopefully this woman has learned to clean up her
> lifestyle on
> a permanent basis for hers and future children's benefit.
> 
> 
> OOOH Judgement statement!!
> We are very quick to lay blame. Many of these women are
> victims. Victims
> of the Metabolic Syndrome where they quickly gain weight
> especially
> centrally, have dyslipidemia, hyperinsulinaemia which causes
> insulin
> resistance, hirsuitsm which leads to poor self esteem and
> other terrible
> symptoms. Being obese doesn't mean they cannot participate in
> life
> changing experiences such as having a baby.
> Another cause are often that these women are victims of
> childhood sexual
> and physical abuse hence have psychological hang ups of
> appearing
> 'pretty'.
> Many women I see in ANC talk about the difficulties shopping
> in the
> supermarket - the trolley Nazi's. Family get together and as
> she wasn't
> working family - sisters- gave her a shopping list for a
> celebration.
> She was stopped in the aisles and unsolicited advice was given
> that she
> shouldn't buy that ... because that would put weight on. She
> was all of
> 28 weeks pregnant wore large clothes covering her belly and I
> am sure
> this person didn't even know she was pregnant. She weighed
> 110kg, walked
> 4 km every day and did gym work so never assume anything with
> these
> ladies. There are those that really do work hard and are very
> aware of
> their physical failings. As one woman said 'we are easy
> targets, we
> can't hide the cigarettes or the drugs like others. These do
> more harm
> than eating healthy and exercise'. 
> The toxins people allude to are you referring to ketones? 
> Barb
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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RE: [ozmidwifery] Weight gain in pregnancy

[Judy Chapman]

That would be great if families really planned and prepared
properly for pregnancy but most don't. Given that it is usually
poor diet and lifestyle that cause the obesity, they probably
have toxins running around anyway. 
Hopefully this woman has learned to clean up her lifestyle on a
permanent basis for hers and future children's benefit. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Nicole Carver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> One concern which has been raised about loss of fat during
> pregnancy, is the
> release of toxins which are stored in fat. I would imagine it
> would be best
> (perhaps not always possible) to lose weight well prior to
> conception so
> that these toxins are out of mum's system.
> Regards,
> Nicole.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Judy
> Chapman
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 11:04 PM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Weight gain in pregnancy
> 
> 
> One of the women I cared for last year decided to lose some
> weight while she was pregnant and got hold of the weight
> watchers diet (couldn't join officially because of pregnancy),
> which, as most would know is just good balanced eating, and
> combined it with lots of walking and lost about 6 kg while she
> was doing this. This translated to a large loss of fat and she
> looked and felt really good because of it. Her baby was 4kg
> and
> healthy. It helped that she was staying with her Mum (husband
> was in Iraq) who also followed the diet with her (and got her
> cholesterol down to the best it has been in years), and her
> sister owns a gym so supervised the exercise.
> What most of us think of as dieting where we really cut the
> calories to low levels does not give us the necessary
> nutrition
> for pregnancy but balanced eating and cutting out the rubbish
> that may have contributed to the weight gain should give good
> results.
> Cheers
> Judy
> 
> --- Kylie Holden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I have another question for you all!
> >
> > I know a woman who is pregnant, currently about 27 weeks. 
> She
> > has been told
> > by her doctor that as she is very overweight (100+kg) she
> > should put on as
> > little weight as possible during pregnancy.  At 27 weeks she
> > has only put on
> > three quarters of a kilo, and doctor is very pleased!  I
> > didn't know what to
> > say to her.  Is such a small weight gain safe for the baby?
> > According to
> > the textbooks, average weight gain is 3-4kgs in the first 20
> > weeks and then
> > half a kilo every week after that (of course, wide variances
> > occur and every
> > woman is different), but the books that I have don't say if
> > it's different
> > for obese women.
> >
> > Less than a kilo of weight gain at 27 weeks...any thoughts?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Kylie
> >
> >
>
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> >
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> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Weight gain in pregnancy

[Judy Chapman]

One of the women I cared for last year decided to lose some
weight while she was pregnant and got hold of the weight
watchers diet (couldn't join officially because of pregnancy),
which, as most would know is just good balanced eating, and
combined it with lots of walking and lost about 6 kg while she
was doing this. This translated to a large loss of fat and she
looked and felt really good because of it. Her baby was 4kg and
healthy. It helped that she was staying with her Mum (husband
was in Iraq) who also followed the diet with her (and got her
cholesterol down to the best it has been in years), and her
sister owns a gym so supervised the exercise. 
What most of us think of as dieting where we really cut the
calories to low levels does not give us the necessary nutrition
for pregnancy but balanced eating and cutting out the rubbish
that may have contributed to the weight gain should give good
results. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Kylie Holden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I have another question for you all!
> 
> I know a woman who is pregnant, currently about 27 weeks.  She
> has been told 
> by her doctor that as she is very overweight (100+kg) she
> should put on as 
> little weight as possible during pregnancy.  At 27 weeks she
> has only put on 
> three quarters of a kilo, and doctor is very pleased!  I
> didn't know what to 
> say to her.  Is such a small weight gain safe for the baby? 
> According to 
> the textbooks, average weight gain is 3-4kgs in the first 20
> weeks and then 
> half a kilo every week after that (of course, wide variances
> occur and every 
> woman is different), but the books that I have don't say if
> it's different 
> for obese women.
> 
> Less than a kilo of weight gain at 27 weeks...any thoughts?
> 
> Thanks
> Kylie
> 
>
_
> realestate.com.au: the biggest address in property   
> http://ninemsn.realestate.com.au
> 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Vaginal breech in hospital

[Judy Chapman]

What a great story Sue, that doesn't happen much. 
Recently we had a breech birth at our small rural hospital. Not
meant to happen. 
Primip, booked for ECV and immediate CS if not succesful though
she certainly did not want that. 
Came in and had a precipitate labour, managed to drop a foot out
before she could get on the ambulance trolley so then it was
definitely not safe to transfer to tertiary hosp. Bit of a
circus but the woman's midwife (who has done a couple of breech
homebirths) managed to fend of a GP OB attempt to interfere and
so was born a cute little sprog with little interference.
Parents very happy with the scenario. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Sue Cookson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi all,
> Had the honour of assisting a 38 year old primip to
> successfully birth
> her breech baby vaginally yesterday in a large hospital.
> She has been told she had to have a c/section  but negotiated
> her way to
> trying a vaginal delivery. We drew up birth plan specifying
> freedom of
> position, midwife delivery, intermittent auscultation, no
> episiotomy,
> physiological third stage etc.
> Went into labour on her due date with the baby sitting with
> its bottom
> and right foot at the cervix. Arrived at the hospital amidst a
> flurry of
> panic but after presenting them with the birth plan and the
> 'team'
> arriving - myself as support person and a friend as filmmaker
> - the 
> staff settled down to document the plan including refusal of
> elective 
> c/section, choice to have no epidural, no CTG, etc.
> A FANTASTIC Indian female registrar arrived and showed genuine
> excitement at the prospect of a breech birth. The couple then
> agreed to
> a PV and ultrasound just to confirm baby's position. She was
> 8cm with
> intact membranes, and bottom and foot palpable - baby was 'a
> nice size'
> according to the registrar 'G'.
> There were a few midwives always around but it was G who
> forged a
> relationship with us all and was incredibly respectful of the
> woman's
> choices. The midwives showed concern when G could palpate the
> foot but
> G was fine. We discussed the choice to birth upright and it
> was agreed
> that we would assist the mother into a more 'conventional'
> position if
> it was required.
> So labour continued with a few more hours in transition during
> which
> time baby rotated to the anterior. We changed positions often
> and it was
> whilst in the bath that the membranes ruptured with fresh
> meconium
> appearing.
> 
> Another VE was performed briefly and foot and bottom were
> close to
> crowning. We were on the floor with the mother supported
> upright, using
> mirrors to watch progress and the first foot began to appear
> at 5.30pm.
> I had a closer look and found a second foot. The baby appeared
> slowly,
> double footlings breech and G gently assisted the baby's head
> to birth
> at 5.45pm. The placenta followed the baby out, so although
> we'd had good
> cord pulse a few minutes before the baby was certainly on his
> own at
> birth. Baby was minimally resuscitated - away from the mother
> which was
> my only slight criticism, but very understandable - and  G
> actually
> helped the mother to move across the floor to the resus
> trolley.
> 
> WOW!! Baby had apgars of 6, then 9 and is just fine. 6lb 11oz.
> Peri
> intact, lotus birth...
> 
> G stated that she had delivered many breech babies in India
> and New
> Guinea and I believe she was an obstetrician overseas but not
> in
> Australia. She was excited at delivering an upright breech
> as she had only ever delivered them in obstetric positions
> before. She
> was also very OK about the lotus birth which was a different
> response
> for that hospital.
> 
> It was a wonderfully affirming birth - a testament to my
> belief of being
> informed, prepared and corageous too!! I am very aware that
> this birth
> hinged on G being in attendance - I truly doubt that many
> other 
> practitioners would have shared her enjoyment of the challenge
> of this 
> birth. Her experience in other countries was so vital ... it
> is possible 
> that she put her hand up for this birth when it was discussed
> a week or 
> so before (the parents had a two hour meeting with another
> doctor and 
> obstetrician - the ob stated he would not support their
> decision, so it 
> truly was an amazing outcome!!).
> 
> Hail to those women who stand strong in their belief of normal
> birth and
> also to those of us who can support them. I really felt
> honoured to be
> there.
> 
> I hope by telling this story that more women and midwives may
> feel 
> encouraged to attempt to negotiate their way through the
> obstetric maze 
> which surrounds vaginal breech births.
> 
> Sue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Scheduled Caesareans...?

[Judy Chapman]

I have thought this for years but seeing how hard it is to
eliminate Failure to Progress from the OB language I think it
would be harder to change EL CS to SCS or Booked CS. 
Cheers
Judy

--- "Kelly @ BellyBelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> One of the women in my forums posted this comment which I
> think is very
> interesting, while I know there are far too many c/s as is, I
> think she has
> a valid point. What do you think?
> 
>  
> 
> "I was just thinking that the name 'elective C/S' should be
> changed to
> 'scheduled C/S'. So many people don't elect caesareans but
> have them as a
> matter of medical necessity and the term elective implies a
> choice that may
> not exist and IMO probably contributes to the whole 'too posh
> to push'
> perception that alot of people have of scheduled C/S's..."
> 
>  
> 
> I know that lots of these scheduled caesarians are probably
> unnecessary, but
> of course some aren't.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Kelly Zantey
> Creator,   BellyBelly.com.au 
> Gentle Solutions For Conception, Pregnancy, Birth & Parenthood
>   BellyBelly Birth
> Support
> 
>  
> 
> 




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] belly dancing midwives:)

[Judy Chapman]

Hi Julie,
I have been doing a bit of bellydancing for 6 years and I
believe my back is a lot stronger for it. I don't get anywhere
near the amount of low back pain I used to get. More fun than
formal exercise too. 
Are you protecting your back by trying to stay at the same level
with the woman by sitting on the floor or a foot stool? 
Don't forget to make sure your abdominals are strong enough to
support your back also. Bellydancing will help there too. Or do
a few crunches (not situps). 
Cheers
Judy

--- Julie Garratt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi all,
> I've just started work as a midwife and I think I need some
> exercise to strengthen my back, feeling a bit stiff after
> catching babies in the shower, bath, floor, birth stool ect. I
> think it is a sustainability issue of practice, a good strong
> back. I don't ever want my physical ability to dictate how a
> woman wants to birth. Anyone tried pilates or belly dancing?
> Any other good suggestions?
> Ta Julie:)


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Re: [ozmidwifery] Peaceful birth

[Judy Chapman]

Fantastic, congratulations, what a woman. Oh for a world of
consumers with as much commitment as you have. 
Cheers
Judy


--- Justine Caines <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear All
> 
> Here¹s the news and even a little pic! Thank you all so much
> for your lovely
> wishes!
> 
> JC
> xx 
> 
> 
> 
> http://au.geocities.com/homebirthau/twins.html
> 







 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] CF screening

[Judy Chapman]

This article on the birthinternational site is good for decisions re downs, I am sure it could be extrapolated to CF.   http://www.birthinternational.com/articles/dietsch01.html  Cheers  JudyRobyn Dempsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Who says that because testing is available, that you have to terminate?  The testing allows choice.  My sister has made friends who have children with CF, they knew they carried the gene and took the attitude " I know what to do with CF kids, it doesn't bother me".  On!
 ce again,
 I read judgment.     Testing allows choice.the choice to terminate, or the choice to prepare for a child with extra needs.     Robyn D  
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Newborn Examination question

[Judy Chapman]

We use the opthalmascope and check the red reflex. We had an
inservice with a Paediatrician. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Helen and Graham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Something happened to that last email of mine... but I wanted
> to say thanks to those who responded to my question. 
> Interesting variation in responses with some workplaces
> requiring further accreditation for midwives to perform the
> newborn exam, some recommending the GP do it and some with the
> midwives doing it routinely themselves.  For those of you who
> do the examination yourselves, could you please tell me if you
> perform fundoscopy i.e using an ophthalmoscope? And for those
> who require accreditation, could you tell me how this is
> obtained and what it consists of?
> 
> Midwives do the newborn examination at my current workplace
> but we don't currently perform fundoscopy. Thanks again for
> your responses.
> 
> Helen
> 
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Helen and Graham 
>   To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
>   Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 3:24 PM
>   Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Newborn Examination question
> 
> 
>   T
> - Original Message - 
> From: Judy Chapman 
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Newborn Examination question
> 
> 
> We do the newborn examination after birth but then
> recommend that they go for the 5 - 10 day well baby check with
> their GP. This is just since we have been working as a birth
> centre.
> Cheers
> Judy
> 
> 
> Helen and Graham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
>   Hi everyone
> 
>   I have a question regarding midwives performing the
> newborn examination postnatally prior to discharge.  
>   Having worked in several hospitals, I am used to this
> exam being performed by a doctor/paediatrician.  The midwife
> does an initial check at birth but on about day 3 o! r 4, or
> at least prior to discharge, a thorough physical examination
> performed, including fundoscopy etc. by a doctor.
> 
>   Interested in your experiences and for those of you who
> do perform it, have you had any further education on the
> subject?
> 
>   Cheers
> 
>   Helen Cahill
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

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>   __ NOD32 1.1309 (20051130) Information __
> 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Newborn Examination question

[Judy Chapman]

  We do the newborn examination after birth but then recommend that they go for the 5 - 10 day well baby check with their GP. This is just since we have been working as a birth centre.  Cheers  JudyHelen and Graham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Hi everyone     I have a question regarding midwives performing the newborn examination postnatally prior to discharge.    Having worked in several hospitals, I am used to this exam being performed by a doctor/paediatrician.  The midwife does an initial check at birth but on about day 3 o!
 r 4, or
 at least prior to discharge, a thorough physical examination performed, including fundoscopy etc. by a doctor.     Interested in your experiences and for those of you who do perform it, have you had any further education on the subject?     Cheers     Helen Cahill      
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RE: [ozmidwifery] article FYI

[Judy Chapman]

I also  appreciate them and take them to work. Keep them coming, anyone who has good info.   Cheers  Judyleanne wynne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Thanks Joanne,It's nice to know that they are appreciated.All the best,Leanne.Leanne WynneMidwife in charge of "Women's Business"Mildura Aboriginal Health Service Mob 0418 371862>From: "Joanne & Steve Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au>To: >Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] article FYI>Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2005 12:53:00 +1000>>Hi Leanne,>>I want to thank you for posting all your interesting articles FYI.>>I often print them off and take them to work.>>Please keep t!
 hem
 coming.>>Cheers, Joanne>>-->This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.>Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.--This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.  
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Antibiotics and Ceasars

[Judy Chapman]

We used to do 3 doses of Keflin but that has  ceased not. I think the anaesthetist, depending on who it is, just  gives a one off dose of cephtriaxone nowdays.   Cheers  Judy  PS Hi Dot, good to see you progressing on, hope all is going well. Dorothy Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  I have a question to put out to you all, I would just like to know what yourexpereiences are with IV antibiotics and women who have had a C/S as at thehospital in which I work the OB's current trend is to put women who have hadCeasars either elective or emergency on triple AB's for three to five days.The Regieme includes Daily Gentamicin usually 240 mg, Cehpazolin 2g TDS orQID and Flagyl 500 mg TDS, this is usually for 3 Days then they go onto oralFlagyl400mg TDS and oral Cephalexin or sometimes
 Amoxicilin for a furtherfive to ten days.  These are women who are well and healthy who have no realindication for AB's except that they have had surgery,well thats the OB'sexcuse anyway.  So would just like to know what other units are practicingin regards to this and thank you  in advance for any feed back you can giveme.RegardsDorothy ThomasMidwife--This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.Visit  to subscribe or unsubscribe.
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Mother friendly hospitals

[Judy Chapman]

This is one reason the people of Mareeba fought so  hard for their maternity ward. We have 3 rooms which used to be two  bedded and have been converted to just one with a Queen size bed, TV,  fridge, table and chairs and an easy chair. Partners are welcome to  stay as are close others if partner not available. I have known a time  when we could not get into a room because of the swags on the floor.  The family lived a long way out and stayed like that a couple of days.  She did not really require help from us, just the ability to get the  bonding going with the rest of her children.   Even if the 3 rooms are in use, we put a camp stretcher for the visitor  in a single room and as soon as a double is avilable they move. It is a  lovely way to work.   Cheers  JudyJohn & Jenny Turnbull <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Brenda I love your idea!Weather a hospital is baby or mother friendly or not, is kind of a moot point these days, you are booted out the door so fast.When I had my first child, having just moved to a small country town, no friends or family I was very much on my own, in reflection it was quite a lonely experience. Having some where to stay longer than a few days, for women who have no support would make all the difference.  It would be fantastic to see a trust started for lower income women who could apply to the trust to have a doula for support during the birth and in the first weeks and months (maybe it could be government funded??? here's hoping).  I am only just being to realise how important the experience a mother has in the first few weeks and months of her babys life really is to her, what an imprint it leaves on her heart and psyche.- Original Message - From: "Barbara Glare & Chris Bright"!
  To: Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 6:03 AMSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Mother friendly hospitals> Hi,>> I really disagree that baby friendly hospitals are OK for the baby but > tough on the mother.  And if your baby friendly hospital is tough on the > mother, then you should be looking at why - because it shouldn't be that > way.  The newborn mother and baby are a unit.  They both surely need to be > cared for as though they were one.  I think it's part of the problem of > society that mothers and babies are pitted against each other almost from > birth.>> Mothers and babies are both usually happier and calmer when together.  If > a mother is of the believe that she needs the baby away from her to rest, > a common enough belief in our society, maybe all that needs to happen is a > little empathy and g!
 ood
 explanations from the staff "I know you are tired, > but what we find is that mothers and babies actually rest better when they > rest together." Just like you would explain to a mum that she doesn't need > to rush off straight away and have a shower - there'll be time for that > later.  Her baby needs to smell her familiar smell and get to know his mum > (and breastfeed)> Surely hospitals can be flexible enough for staff to take the baby for a > while if needed - carrying in a sling is great modelling for the mum and > keeps baby calm, or dad or grandma can help out.>> For every mother I hear when I'm assessing baby friendly hopitals who say > they would have liked a nursery, I hear many, many more whom the staff > told that they must be tired and they would take the baby so the mother > could rest - the mothers lay unsleeping and rigid in their beds, worrying > if that baby t!
 hey could
 hear crying was their baby.>> Barb> - Original Message - > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 12:27 AM> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Mother friendly hospitals Wouldn't it ?>> I always say baby - friendly is OK for the baby but often it's really >> tough on the mothers.>> We ought to be able to do service to both, compromise being the operative >> word.>> The old days of 'lying in & convalescing' were good for mothers & babies, >> I agree with the previous post about too much being expected of new >> mothers. Especially after a C/S which after all is major surgery.>> Yes, birth is a natural process but never the less it's exhausting, hard, >> manual & mental labour. Women need to recover & recuperate to co!
 pe with
 >> the demands of mothering, feeding & running a household.>> The old 'lying in hospitals ' were not such a bad idea were they ? In >> fact I've often thought of the need for a private facility offering those >> services nowadays. Like an extended stay unit where women go post birth >> for 1 or 2 weeks & get fed,nurtured, educated, assisted with feeding, >> shown postnatal exercises, encouraged to rest, have massages, see >> naturopaths re healing remedies if needed etc.>> In fact Wholistic Care !! What do you think ?>> Idealistic ??> Dean & Jo  wrote:> Ahhh!>> mother friendly hospitals...now that would be worth pursuing! -- >> No virus found in this outgoing message.>> Checked by AVG Free
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Re: [ozmidwifery] question from Year 10 student

[Judy Chapman]

I would take a punt at the even pressure of the fluid filled
uterus along with the baby's blood pressure adjusting naturally
to that position. 
Cheers
Judy
--- Bowman Family <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I am involved in the CoreOf Life Program for Year 10 students.
>  It is a fun and interactive program run over a double period
> and is about the journey through pregnancy, labour birth and
> parenting.
> Last week when I was demonstrating positioning with doll &
> pelvis  one of the boys asked  "how come the blood doesn't
> rush to the baby's head like it does for us if we are upside
> down" 
> I didn't know the correct answer and said I would get back to
> him.  
> It possibly is obvious but I have asked a few peers and no-one
> is definite they have the correct answer.  I thought I would
> throw it open to OzMidwifery for discussion.
> 
> Linda




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Abby's Birth Announcement

[Judy Chapman]

Fantastic and Congratulations Abby. Love to heare those so
positive stories. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Abby and Toby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> HI,
> 
> Sorry for the x-post, but thought I would share that
> thismorning at 3:46am I
> gave birth to a beautiful little girl, Runah. After a couple
> of days of
> crazy prelabour and 5 hours of active labour she was birthed
> in warm water,
> in my own home, into my friends hands with just her daddy,
> mummy and two
> friends there.
> After having a very traumatic c-section with my first
> daughter, this was
> truly amazing!!
> I am sore, tired and truly EMPOWERED!!
> 
> Love Abby
> 
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RE: [ozmidwifery] level 2 midwives

[Judy Chapman]

As well, there are limited number of positions for NO2 so that
many midwives who is able to care for complex care patients are
restricted to NO1 positions purely because one does not get the
position and hence pay, on ability but on the number of such
positions avialable. 
Cheers
Judy

--- B & G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Level 2 or Clinical Nurse (now known as Nursing Officer 2)
> midwives do
> not have to be shift coordinators. The position description
> (generic)
> primarily refers to a midwife (nurse) who is able to care for
> complex
> care clients. Unfortunately it is Queensland Health and
> managers who
> have added that aspect of co-ordinating shifts AND taking
> complex
> patient load AND having portfolio's as you describe. this is
> of course
> in your own time as there is never anytime allocated for
> off-line time
> to do these portfolio's If you look at the Nurses Award Qld
> and MX170
> you will find full details of generic position descriptions. 
> In our organisation NO1's co-ordinate as well even with a NO2
> on the
> same shift. They actually get more money for it as it
> incorporates a 'in
> charge of shift allowance' NO2's don't get this. They also
> work in all
> areas you describe as these are not restricted to NO2's. I do
> not have
> on my name badge Clinical Nurse just Midwife.
> It is hoped with Peter Forster's review published 30/9 this
> whole
> workload and off-line time will be reviewed.
> Midwives who work in BC have their salary averaged (all
> penalties) and
> are paid at  NO2
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Alese Koziol
> Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2005 5:20 PM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] level 2 midwives
> 
> 
> Thanks for the clarification Melissa, which state are you
> referring to?
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: Melissa Singer   
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 4:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] level 2 midwives
> 
> Hi Alese,
>  
> Level 2 midwife (in a ward hospital setting) is the senior
> midwife on
> that shift who is responsible for the co-ordination of the
> shift as well
> as being a resource person for level 1 midwives.  There is
> usually at
> least one on per shift.  They also have portfolio's such as
> clinical
> indicators, best practice, equip etc.  Other level 2 midwives
> are
> usually early discharge home visiting midwives,  staff
> development
> midwives, midwives responsible for the co-ordination of ANC,
> childbirth
> classes and such.
>  
> Midwives who work independently in birth centers here are also
> level
> 2's.
>  
> Hope that helps
> Melissa
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: Alese   Koziol 
> To: ozmidwifery   
> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 12:47 PM
> Subject: [ozmidwifery] level 2 midwives
> 
> Dear list
> Amongst the discussions recently there was mention of a 'level
> 2
> midwife'. Could someone please enlighten me... which state was
> this
> terminology used for and what exactly is a level 2 midwife?
> Have a
> medico trying to bully us into using a policy which he has
> obviously
> 'borrowed'  which also uses this terminology. It is not used
> in
> Victoria. Many thanks in anticipation
> Alesa
>  
> Alesa Koziol
> Clinical Midwifery Educator
> Melbourne
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] FYI: News article for QLD maternity

[Judy Chapman]

Hope they save some for up north here.
Judy

--- Megan & Larry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> This was on news.com, 
> Megan
> 
> Extra $52m for maternity services
> From: AAP 
> 
> October 31, 2005 
> QUEENSLAND has announced an extra $52 million for maternity
> services in the
> state's public hospitals.
> Premier Peter Beattie said the Government would provide an
> extra $8.63
> million for maternity services in 2005/06 and the same amount
> for each of
> the next five years to meet increasing demand. 
> "On average about 100 babies are born in our public hospitals
> every day,
> which can also stretch maternity services in some areas," Mr
> Beattie said. 
> "The $52 million funding boost starts immediately and is
> targeted to enable
> health districts to provide more maternity services and better
> access to
> them." 
> The funding included recurrent allocations of $2.2 million a
> year to the
> Redcliffe-Caboolture district, $1.63 million to the Gold
> Coast, $1.5 million
> to the Bayside district based around Redcliffe hospital, and
> $1.5 million to
> the Logan-Beaudesert area. 
> The money would provide additional beds, staff, equipment and
> support
> services. 
> 
> 




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: Midwifery Educators

[Judy Chapman]

Sounds like the birth through water the other day. Said when she
told me she felt like pushing "I am obliged to ask you to get
out of the bath, but I can't make you". She stayed. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Maxine Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ha ha - I remember doing the same in my mid training tho we
> didn't have to do shaves. "I could give you an enema if you
> would like one!" I would offer.  Never had any takers  The
> power of consent
> Maxine
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Ken WArd 
>   To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
>   Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:09 PM
>   Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Re: Midwifery Educators
> 
> 
>   When I started my mid we were doing shaves and enemas.  It
> was my group of students that facillated change. Maybe because
> we were a generally older lot.  the women were informed they
> wold be shaved and given an enema. If any objection or query
> of the procedure was made they were quickly told that they
> could refuse. All did, and by the time our 12 months were up
> there were no shaves or enemas taking place. Midwives can
> effect change. As to cutting the cord quickly if baby needs
> resus. I have resused 2 flat babies with cord intact, on the
> bed with mum. Bub is getting 02 from mum, and mum is not
> nearly so stressed. Both babies responded well.
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
> Nicole Carver
> Sent: Tuesday, 25 October 2005 10:36 AM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Re: Midwifery Educators
> 
> 
> Hi Barbara,
> Do your parents have any say in the cord clamping? Perhaps
> they need more information such as at their education
> sessions? We also do active management, but Dad's are still
> able to cut the cord. Not many of our Mum's do physiological
> third stage. However, we had a lotus birth recently which went
> well.
> I believe that although midwives do not have a lot of
> power in hospitals, parents requests are often listened to.
> There is an opportunity to harness this to bring about a
> cultural change, and if parents continue to request certain
> practices they will break down the resistance to change. 
> I have not given pethidine through an epidural before. We
> have infusions though. They are Fentanyl/Marcain and we do obs
> 5 minutely for 30 minutes, then full set of obs with pain
> score, sedation score, dermatomes and motor function, then
> pulse, BP, resps and sedation score hourly, with dermatomes
> and motor function 4 hourly. I think it is good to keep your
> obs consistent to save confusion, particularly with new or
> inexperienced staff.
> Cheers,
> Nicole.
> 
>   -Original Message-
>   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
> Barbara Stokes
>   Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 10:15 AM
>   To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
>   Subject: [ozmidwifery] Re: Midwifery Educators
> 
> 
>   Dear Midwives,
> 
>   I have just returned from our small hospital "midwives
> and doctors breakfast meeting".  This is to encourage
> communication.  We have 4 GP/Obs and 9 midwivies.
> 
>   On discussion was a new policy for epidural-top ups:
> both pethidine only and marcain/fenytal .
> 
>   Policy is now insistent on bp obs 5minutely for 30
> minutes for both top-ups.
> 
>   Other hospitals have had the pethidine only top-ups: 
> prior giving top-up bp, in 5 minutes and then in 15 minutes.
> 
>
> 
>   Does anyone have an email address for me to contact?
> 
>
> 
>   Also does anyone have policy or guidelines re allowing
> dads to cut cord?  This meeting has decided that no cord
> clamps (plastic) will be put on set up so the forceps are
> used, Dad can do a token cutting later (?how later) when cord
> clamp (plastic) is to be put on.
> 
>   I was hailed down when I suggested that a well baby
> could be put onto mum and continue with the cord clamp/ dad
> cutting cord when ready.  If the baby needed active
> resuscitation then quick transfer to resus. trolley would be
> normal procedure.
> 
>
> 
>   As you will have noticed our GP's only do active 3rd
> stage, mothers have never heard of physiological 3rd stage
> even though same discussed at ante-natal classes.
> 
>
> 
>   Thanks from a disappointed midwife,
> 
>   Barbara
> 




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: Midwifery Educators

[Judy Chapman]

They can't be too busy if they have nothing better to do than
nitpick on cord cutting like that. It has been more years than I
can remember that I have put the plastic clamp on first and only
one metal and had dad cut. Of course in emergency you do what is
best at the time, but a Policy or guideline for that?
Cheers
Judy

--- Barbara Stokes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear Midwives,
> I have just returned from our small hospital "midwives and
> doctors
> breakfast meeting".  This is to encourage communication.  We
> have 4
> GP/Obs and 9 midwivies.
> On discussion was a new policy for epidural-top ups: both
> pethidine only
> and marcain/fenytal .
> Policy is now insistent on bp obs 5minutely for 30 minutes for
> both
> top-ups.
> Other hospitals have had the pethidine only top-ups:  prior
> giving
> top-up bp, in 5 minutes and then in 15 minutes.
>  
> Does anyone have an email address for me to contact?
>  
> Also does anyone have policy or guidelines re allowing dads to
> cut cord?
> This meeting has decided that no cord clamps (plastic) will be
> put on
> set up so the forceps are used, Dad can do a token cutting
> later (?how
> later) when cord clamp (plastic) is to be put on.
> I was hailed down when I suggested that a well baby could be
> put onto
> mum and continue with the cord clamp/ dad cutting cord when
> ready.  If
> the baby needed active resuscitation then quick transfer to
> resus.
> trolley would be normal procedure.
>  
> As you will have noticed our GP's only do active 3rd stage,
> mothers have
> never heard of physiological 3rd stage even though same
> discussed at
> ante-natal classes.
>  
> Thanks from a disappointed midwife,
> Barbara
> 




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: twins birth story

[Judy Chapman]

Fantastic Yvette.
I have been wondering a lot lately how you went. I wish you all
the best for the future. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Lindsay & Yvette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi all,
> Some of you may remember me going on about trying to plan a
> vaginal twins birth.  Babies are 8 weeks old now & here's the
> full birth story.
> http://bellybelly.com.au/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15647
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Yvette
> Mum of 5
> http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/t/twingirlslb/




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Obs first visits

[Judy Chapman]

In Mareeba the women are booked under the Midwife's name. I
guess it takes a long time to change. We are not rocking the
boat right now as what we are doing is very different to what
most of the rest of Qld does and we are just too happy to still
be alive. Working with the OB's in Cairns is one of the
conditions of our survival. 
Cheers
Judy

--- wump fish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> It is very depressing to hear that even when women have
> midwifery-led care 
> they either have to see a dr or have their notes reviewed by a
> dr. As 
> midwives we are the experts in normal and competent at
> identifying when 
> things are high risk or becoming abnormal. Why the hell do the
> drs waste 
> their time 'checking' notes incase we have missed something?
> Is it because 
> the women are booked under their name, therefore they think
> they are 
> responsible for a stuff-up? In the UK low risk women were
> booked under their 
> mw's name unless there were problems. We would get into
> serious trouble if 
> we had missed something and it resulted in a poor outcome
> (very very rarely 
> happened). Responsibility goes hand in hand with autonomy.
> 
> Rachel
> 
>
_
> Be the first to hear what's new at MSN - sign up to our free
> newsletters! 
> http://www.msn.co.uk/newsletters
> 
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> 







 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Obs first visits

[Judy Chapman]

At Mareeba the women are not seen by an OB. They are supposed to
have just one visit sometime with a Dr to check they are normal
healthy but that does not always happen. 
All charts are case conferenced with the supporting OB and
suggestions for care are discussed if there is anything out of
the ordinary in their history and it in then that they are
classed as fit to birth with us or needing to go to Cairns. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Sonja & Barry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> Dear all,
> I am hoping for some information about midwifery/maternity
> units that don't require women to be seen by an obstetrician
> at any stage throughout their pregnancy.  Info I need is do
> the midwives listen for heart sounds etc, do they see a GP, or
> is this all quite irrelevant and thus no needs to do any of
> these checks?  Some places call this a first visit, whilst
> others may use these checks to "allow" women access to birth
> centres etc.  I hope this makes sense.
> Regards Sonja




 
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RE: [ozmidwifery] Infant Sleep

[Judy Chapman]

Just like they hide sugar in everything. 
Judy

--- Ken WArd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Having a little one with milk protein allergy I have learnt to
> check all
> labelling. They hide milk in just about everything.
>   -Original Message-
>   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
> Emily
>   Sent: Thursday, 20 October 2005 2:09 PM
>   To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
>   Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Infant Sleep
> 
> 
>   hi there
>   im vegan so heres a few yummy dairy free breakfast ideas: u
> can use rice
> or soy milk on cereals
>   - porridge with tahini, honey and fruit
>   - corn puffs (organic bags sold in coles and woolies) with
> fruit and soy
> yoghurt
>   - weet-bix are dairy free too
>   - rye toast with avocado and tomato  / baked beans (protein)
> / tahini and
> fruit / soy cream cheese and tomato
>   - you can get nuttelex margarine if you miss butter
>   - you can use silken tofu to make a scramble sort of like
> scrambled eggs
> and add whatever you like to it (tomato, parsely, herbs)
>   - soy milk smoothies with fruit, honey and cinnamon
>   ..
>   etc etc
>   hope you (and bub) enjoy
>   love emily
> 
>   Pinky McKay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ??porridge/ buckwheat pancakes without eggs? wholemeal
> toast and jam/
> honey/
> avocado/ banana?
> It really is a change of mindset isnt it?
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "JoFromOz"
> To:
> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 10:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Infant Sleep
> 
> 
> > Pinky McKay wrote:
> >
> >> Jo- as I am researching for sleep book - in one sleep
> study in UK -
> 12 %
> >> of bubs for whom no other reason for sleeplessnes was
> discovred, were
> >> found to be sensitive to dairy- dairy removed for 5
> weeks and then
> >> challenged - all but one bub reacted again with
> sleeplessness. Bubs
> >> challenged again 12 months later and 10 / 15 still
> reacted. Allergic
> >> symptoms are not necessarily gut related - there is
> also a diff !
> between
> >> food allergy and intolerance. Would be very suss if
> your breastfed
> bub
> >> has excema that he is sensitive to something dietary.
> You would need
> to
> >> eliminate ALL dairy - including milk in bought
> biscuits/ yoghurt etc
> etc
> >> for at least ten days - but it could be worth a try.
> >>
> >> Pinky
> >
> > Oh wow, I didn't realise it could show up in non-gut
> ways. Ok, this
> could
> > be tough, but hell, it's worth it. Eggs on toast for
> breakfast for me!
> > (no butter). Could he be sensitive to eggs, too? Damn,
> fruit for
> > breakfast... ;)
> >
> > Thanks :)
> >
> > Jo
> >
> > --
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> 
> --
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> 
> 
> 
>

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Re: [ozmidwifery] Infant Sleep

[Judy Chapman]

My sister found out that it was carbonated softdrinks that was
upsetting her second baby and driving her nuts. Not fizz, no
fuss. Many thanks to the Child Health Nurse who twigged to it. 
Judy
--- Pinky McKay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> clever bub refusing to drink the chamolmile - its related to
> severe allergic 
> reactions in some bubs.
> Jo another thought - have you seen Sue Dengates work? She is
> an absolute 
> wealth of knowledge on food additives -and not just artificial
> stuff, 
> although I heard her speak a couple of weeks ago and she
> mentioned a baby 
> who cried 18 hrs a day -mum and bub both admitted to hospital
> (any 
> wonder?) - turned out to be  areaction to preservatives in
> bread. There can 
> be naturally occuring chemicals in otherwise healthy foods
> too.
> 
> Check out Sues website
> http://www.fedupwithfoodadditives.info
> 
> Pinky




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] 4ft 9 and birthing

[Judy Chapman]

When will the actually look at the woman. Most women of that
size will have an appropriately sized baby and no problems -
something we have all had experience with. 
Cheers
Judy


--- Robyn Dempsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Wump fish was saying last week an Ob said a primip who was 4ft
> 9' should have a c-section over natural childbirth.
> 
> Well, that's my height, my husband is 6ft 2! I'm a midwife,and
> was doing my training when I fell pregnant with my first baby.
> I  had sooo many Obs telling me that 'you'll be a c-section',
> that, had I been any other person, it would have totally
> eroded my confidence to birth.
> 
> I've had 3 babies, all born at home..does anyone
> realize that 1/3 of the worlds population is about that
> height?
> 
> Robyn Dempsey




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so

[Judy Chapman]

Just beware the documentation. It is not enough to say that you
discussed the pro's and con's of the course of action, you have
to write exactly what you said. 
Cheers
Judy

--- wump fish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> People will try and sue for a poor outcome regardless of the
> info given etc. 
> But, if you have provided them with adequate info, and they
> have made their 
> choice and you exercise the 'expected' level of skill - their
> case will be 
> unsuccessful.
> 
> I've just finished a legal, risk management course and learned
> a lot. People 
> will sue whatever (and unpredictably sometimes), but you can
> protect 
> yourself against them being successful. Women and their
> partners need to 
> take responsibility for their birth experiences, and we should
> be 
> encouraging them to do so.
> 
> Rachel
> 
> 
> >From: "brendamanning" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> >To: 
> >Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward
> C-sections? I 
> >don't think so
> >Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 15:27:07 +1000
> >
> >Whilst I agree totally in theory..
> >"Bad workmen always blame their tools".
> >I mean we are all talking about 35 years exp of 'seeing'
> births or 
> >deliveries here are we not ? I too had a KRF del x 1 & was OK
> afterwards so 
> >it isn't a personal bias (mind you, made sure I had the next
> babies at home 
> >!!). Just observation & experience.
> >Whatever the instrument, NB, Wrig, Keill  it's
> incidental, whatever the 
> >surgery it's incidental, damage happens. Some places don't
> use Keill 
> >anymore because they cause maternal damage, in inexp hands,
> if they kept 
> >using them knowing this, we'd consider them negligent
> wouldn't we ?
> >Some folks love the Ventouse, some hate it.
> >Some folks love EL C/S, some condemn it.
> >We've all seen horrific outcomes from what we thought (& to
> all intents & 
> >purposes appeared) to be NVDs at the time haven't we ?
> >I have actually been present on more than one occasion when
> an OB has given 
> >what I considered (given the time, energy & urgency in the
> situation) to be 
> >a very reasonable & balanced summary of events with choices,
> options, 
> >rationales, possible sequalae etc & the woman & her support
> team have made 
> >their choices & then.. sued later.
> >
> >Go figure
> >As I say, emotive, subjective stuff all the way isn't it ?
> >
> >With kind regards
> >Brenda Manning
> >www.themidwife.com.au
> >
> >
> >- Original Message - From: "Ken WArd"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: 
> >Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 2:34 PM
> >Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward
> C-sections? I 
> >don't think so
> >
> >
> >>Sorry, I too have seen some dreadful injuries, but not with
> Kielland, and 
> >>my
> >>own experience with the Kielland was okay, no episi and only
> a very small
> >>tear. Which I thought was pretty good considering the huge
> epises I'd had
> >>with the others. It was the Neville Barnes forceps that did
> the damage, 
> >>not
> >>to me but the baby, and I think it was the stuck shoulders
> that caused the
> >>neck.  Some of the worse injuries I have seen have been
> wriggleys lift 
> >>outs.
> >>Dreadful placement of the blades, although my 2 wriggleys
> births were 
> >>fine,
> >>no probs with me or the babies. We do need to remember that
> not all forcep
> >>births result in injury, and are sometimes necessary
> >>
> >>-Original Message-
> >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
> brendamanning
> >>Sent: Sunday, 16 October 2005 12:12 PM
> >>To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> >>Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward
> C-sections? I
> >>don't think so
> >>
> >>
> >>Ken,
> >>
> >>Your story is a very common one.
> >>I think we all saw a good many Keillands Rotations in our
> day & often the
> >>dreadful resulting lacerations & pain, injury & suffering
> that went along
> >>with them for mother & baby.
> >>I agree with Rachel in that often this was caused by
> operator error, the 
> >>Reg
> >>'practising' (foot on the end of the bed stuff, makes me
> shudder to think
> >>about it).
> >>Fourth degree tears were not uncommon & the long-lasting
> damage to babies,
> >>womens minds, pelvic floors & pelvic organs was horrendous.
> >>BUT.and I realise this could be construed as
> inflammatory but
> >>it's not intended to be, really !!
> >>Perhaps in the age of 'new obstetrics' if women ceased
> sueing OBs for
> >>everything that went wrong then they (the OBs) wouldn't all
> be resorting 
> >>to
> >>C/S at absolutely any excuse.
> >>Really it's a very emotive argument & the OBs are damned if
> they do & 
> >>damned
> >>if they don't. Sometimes we midwives are in the same boat !!
> >>I'm not defending them overly here, just telling it like it
> is.
> >>The OB is the story below emerges as skilled but he could
> just as easily
> >>have had the arse sued off him for

Re: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward C-sections? I don't think so

[Judy Chapman]

Be good to start a trend with that one!!!
Judy


--- Maxine Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What about when you feel like giving the drugs to the
> obstetrician!
> Maxine
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Ken WArd 
>   To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au 
>   Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 11:04 AM
>   Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward
> C-sections? I don't think so
> 
> 
>   I have given women drugs in labour at their partners demand.
> Also epidurals and c/s organised because the partner wasn't
> coping. It is devesting when a woman is labouring well, and
> her partner, or sometimes her mother, isn't coping and
> undermines the woman's confidence in her body. I have often
> felt like giving him the drugs. One feels hopeless and
> helpless when adverse comments and stressed support people
> influence the woman. And lets face it, in the hospital setting
> who has the strongest and personal relationship, and therefore
> more likely to influence ?
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
> Gloria Lemay
> Sent: Friday, 14 October 2005 5:59 AM
> To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;@uniserve.com;;;
> Subject: [ozmidwifery] Scottish dads push wives toward
> C-sections? I don't think so
> 
> 
> This is a group that no one has thought to blame the high
> cesarean rate on.  Hmm.  Gloria
> 
> 
> 
> Scotland on Sunday - October 2, 2005
>  
> Squeamish men pushing wives towards Caesareans 
> 
> RICHARD GRAY 
> HEALTH CORRESPONDENT 
> 
> 
> FRETTING fathers-to-be are fuelling Scotland's soaring
> Caesarean section
> rate because they do not like to see their pregnant
> partners in pain,
> midwives have warned. 
> They claim many worried husbands are afraid of the mess
> and noise that
> accompanies natural childbirth. 
>   Instead they are encouraging their wives to give birth
> at large
> consultant-led hospital units where they can get powerful
> painkillers and
> surgery. 
> But midwives claim these over-protective men are
> unwittingly causing their
> partners to have unnecessary Caesarean sections and drugs
> by taking them to
> these "baby factories". 
> They say more women would have natural births if they used
> smaller
> midwife-run maternity units. 
> The proportion of women choosing to have Caesareans has
> leapt from 6.2% to
> 9% in the last 10 years with more than 4,600 women
> choosing to have the
> major surgical procedure in 2004. 
> Experts claim the increase in popularity is mainly due to
> the misconception
> that Caesareans are a safer and pain-free option to
> traditional childbirth. 
> But the abdominal surgery can leave mothers in pain for
> weeks afterwards and
> they are prone to getting infections in their wound. 
> The controversy surrounding Caesareans has led to tensions
> between midwives
> and doctors over the best way of providing services to
> pregnant women. 
> Earlier this year the Royal College of Midwives launched a
> campaign to
> promote "normality" in childbirth. 
> Phyllis Winters, a midwifery team leader at Montrose
> Community Maternity
> Unit, believes the celebrity trend of opting for
> Caesareans has helped
> create the myth that surgery is the easier option. 
> But she believes squeamish husbands have also played a
> part in the decline
> of natural childbirth. 
> She will present her claims at a conference organised by
> the National
> Childbirth Trust (NCT) and the Royal College of Midwives
> in Dunfermline,
> Fife, on Thursday. 
> Winters said: "A lot of couples take decisions about
> childbirth together and
> men in particular feel wary about childbirth. 
> "They are frightened about seeing their partner in pain
> and about what can
> go wrong. As a result they often prefer to go to the
> consultant led unit
> where they perceive there is a higher level of care. 
> "Unfortunately there is also a higher level of
> intervention when it is not
> needed. In Montrose less than 8% of the births we deal
> with at the
> midwife-led unit get transported to the specialist unit
> due to complications
>  
> "Women need more positive role models to have natural
> births and perhaps
> then we will see a change in the way society views what is
> a natural life
> event. 
> "Men also have to understand that by going to a
> midwife-led service they are
> not taking a risk." 
> Currently just 63% of all babies born in Scotland are
> delivered naturally,
> but midwives claim the vast majority of births using
> Caesarean sections and
> induction should be allowed to happen naturally. 
> Patricia Purton, director of the Royal College of Midwives
> Scotland, agreed
> that fathers-to-be played a significant role in helping
> women choose their
> method of b

RE: [ozmidwifery] Induction and third stage labour

[Judy Chapman]

I think I would be tempted to say that mild jaundice is normal.
I can't see primative man cutting the cord so quickly as we do
and somehow he managed to survive and even proliferate. Where I
work we do a lot of physiological third stages, late cord
clamping and early breastfeeding and many babies have a bit of
jaundice colour but it is not pathological. We do very few SBR
blood tests. Probably helps that we don't have onsite pathology,
it has to go to the tertiary hospital so it makes one think if
one really needs to. Haven't had to use the phototherapy for
ages. 
Cheers
Judy
 
--- Nicole Carver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> There are some who believe the higher levels of antioxidants
> caused by
> jaundice may be protective of babies, and mild jaundice 'may'
> be normal.
> Nicole.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of lisa
> chalmers
> Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 11:48 AM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Induction and third stage labour
> 
> 
> My experience of this, is that if the cords are not cut until
> they have
> finished pulsing, babies seem to develop jaundice for
> longer..(that the
> usual standards) . That makes complete sense to me, since they
> get more
> blood than babes that had cords clamped and cut quickley.
> I'm sure I read somewhere that babies are deprived of as much
> as 25% of
> their blood volume by cutting the cord.
> Nearly everyone I know that did not cut the cord, had babies
> that developed
> Jaundice. Nothing serious just yellowing.
> - Original Message -
> From: "Andrea Quanchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 9:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Induction and third stage labour
> 
> 
> > There are many reasons that influence whether a baby gets
> jaundiced or not
> >  Two of these are
> > 1. prematurity ( of the liver as well as dates, some babies
> livers take
> > ages to be efficient enough to clear the jaundice.
> >
> > 2. Not passing mec soon after birth. The longer the mec
> stays inside the
> > more bilirubin is reabsorbed increasing the workload of the
> immature
> > system.  This is usually influenced by how quickly the baby
> is able to
> > feed.
> >
> > The thing about synt is that it is often used to augment
> labour in a woman
> > who has been labouring for hours or to induce labour in a
> woman who is not
> > yet ready to go into labour and the result is a tired mother
> and baby who
> > often dont come together well to feed without good
> assistance. This is
> > often not forthcoming in the hurry to get things cleaned up,
> the  move to
> > the postnatal ward and paper work to be done.  Ask your
> friend and she
> > will probably not have seen jaundice in a woman who has had
> synt but had a
> > quick labour.  Most women who birth in hospitals have synt
> in some form or
> > other for 3rd stage and the level of jaundice in some
> settings is very
> > low.  I would suggest it may be in direct relationship to
> the length of
> > time until feeding is established.
> >
> > I think the whole reason synt is being used is the concern
> rather than
> > blaming the synt for jaundice alone.
> >
> > Andrea Q
> > On 06/10/2005, at 2:03 AM, Belinda wrote:
> >
> >> I have a friend who has been a ipm for many years and she
> believes that
> >> babies are more likely to get jaundiced when the mother has
> had synto, it
> >> makes sense of they get that extra unneccessary boost of
> blood.
> >> Belinda
> >>
> >>
> >>
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Re: [ozmidwifery] VBAC booklet

[Judy Chapman]

Jo,
I would prefer a CD and run off copies at work. That way we can
catch all women who need it rather than just the ones who can
afford it. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Dean & Jo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi to everyone who has requested a copy of the booklet.
> I am waiting on Carolyn to come back from a well deserved
> holiday so we
> can confirm the cost for the booklet.  Hard copies will be
> pricey due to
> the size of the booklet and postage, so I am investigating th
> option of
> burning it onto a CD which people can the use to run their own
> copies
> off.  Would this be a more suitable option for people or would
> yu prefer
> hard copies?
> I have taken you names and such and will send an email out
> with all the
> confirmed details.
> Thanks for your support!
> Cheers  
> Jo
> CARES SA
> 
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RE: [ozmidwifery] Oral EPO dose for cervix?

[Judy Chapman]

This one? 
http://www.spontaneouscreation.org/index.htm
Cheers
Judy

--- Vedrana Valèiæ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I remember I was reading somewhere about how 40 weeks is not
> the mean duration of pregnancy, it is more, and it is
> different for first and subsequent pregnancies. I can't seem
> to find that article anywhere. This might be of interest to
> her, if I could just find it somewhere... It was pretty old, I
> think from the sixties last centry.
> 
> Vedrana
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Kelly @ BellyBelly
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 3:58 AM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Oral EPO dose for cervix?
> 
> Thank-you so much for this, have forwarded it to her... She's
> still going at
> 40w3d with no signs of anything happening as yet, appointment
> with the high
> risk Ob tomorrow where I know there will be talk of induction
> / caesar...
> Can you please tell me more about this balloon induction - not
> heard of it
> before? Want to be armed with info for what's to come with the
> challenge
> tomorrow... 
> 
> Best Regards,
>  
> Kelly Zantey
> Director, www.bellybelly.com.au & www.toys4tikes.com.au
> Gentle Solutions For Conception, Pregnancy, Birth & Baby
> Australian Little Tikes Specialists
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Kathy
> McCarthy-Bushby
> Sent: Tuesday, 20 September 2005 5:49 PM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Oral EPO dose for cervix?
> 
> 
> Hi Kelly,
> The website www.birthrites.org has a page on natural induction
> including
> information on EPO doses either orally or vaginally, nipple
> stimulation,
> accupressure (4 fingers above the inner aspect of the ankle
> bone). EPO, is
> great for women planning a vbac for ripening the cervix, but
> if she doesn't
> get into labour naturally, EPO can make the cervix ripe for
> ARM and the
> balloon induction has been safely used for vbac women with an
> unripe cervix.
> kathy
> - Original Message -
> From: "Kelly @ BellyBelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 12:05 PM
> Subject: [ozmidwifery] Oral EPO dose for cervix?
> 
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I know it's probably a bit late to try this, but I have a mum
> who's hoping
> for a VBAC, EDD today but in order to beat a caesar (they wont
> induce her of
> course) we're thinking of giving EPO a go to help with
> ripening her cervix.
> I have read somewhere that 500mg tid is often used - can
> anyone confirm or
> recommend dosage they have used? She'll ask a herbalist none
> the less, but
> often I find they aren't well versed on specifics for preg &
> baby like this.
> Also her BP is creeping up a little, she had pre-eclampsia
> with the first
> but obviously done well with this pregnancy - will this still
> be okay with
> EPO or is there something else I could recommend? I think
> she's actually
> quite frightened having had a previous caesar hence the blood
> pressure
> (she's had a great BP otherwise) so I am going to meet with
> her tomorrow to
> hopefully relax her about a vaginal birth. She's told me in
> fewer words
> she's frightened but I think she's keeping it in - will have a
> big chat
> tomorrow.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Kelly Zantey
> Director, www.bellybelly.com.au & www.toys4tikes.com.au
> Gentle Solutions For Conception, Pregnancy, Birth & Baby
> Australian Little
> Tikes Specialists
> 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Indigestion at breakfast....

[Judy Chapman]

Excellent letter Justine, I only hope she is open to listening. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Justine Caines <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Dear All
> 
> My response to Miranda.
> 
> JC
> xx
> 
> 
> Dear Miranda
> 
> Your headline today was perfect.  It is unfortunate that the
> story did not
> follow.
> 
> I am a Mother of 4, with twins due in November (yes I know
> what
> contraception is!).
> 
> I live in rural NSW and have been without a maternity service
> for 15 years
> (long before I had my babies).
> 
> We have no specialist Obstetrician nor a GP with obstetric
> training and
> probably never will.
> 
> We do however have 3 local midwives who would provide care to
> low risk women
> in our local hospital.
> 
> Currently I travel 150 kms to receive antenatal care.  I have
> no choice in
> this care, and the conditions of the nearest unit are
> pre-historic.
> 
> Miranda I read some time ago about your experiences and
> understand (correct
> me if I am wrong) that you chose caesarean section.  I respect
> that you made
> that choice.  Do you believe that as a woman I too should have
> choice?
> Because currently like 50% of rural women I have none.
> 
> Do you believe that the safety of both myself and baby is
> important? (From
> your story it would seem so)
> 
> If you do a little more research on what is happening in the
> majority of
> rural units and even some on metropolitan fringes then you
> would  understand
> that I (as a healthy woman) would be much safer in my local
> community with
> midwifery care (even without on site medical care).  My
> ³choice² now is to
> dodge Kangaroos in labour (no doubt in the middle of the
> night) in an area
> with no mobile coverage, or risk an ambulance ride if it is
> all too quick.
> Why do I say Œrisk¹ well our Ambo¹s who are amazing people are
> not equipped
> for a post partum haemorrhage (they do not carry syntocinon
> which stops
> bleeding, a drug midwives are trained to use and carry). So if
> I have the
> baby enroute and have a big bleed after they simply become
> good drivers.
> Most women do not know this and when we are often talking 2
> hour (road)
> transfers (and then some!) this is very important. If I was in
> my local
> community in a midwifery unit a midwife would have the drug
> and the required
> knowledge to stop the bleeding.
> 
> My 3rd baby was a 50 minute labour from one small pain to a
> baby in arms.  I
> know I am much safer with midwives caring for me in a system
> that already
> has safe transfer arrangements for all other conditions (we
> live and drive
> cars and work on farms and have accidents in the country that
> require
> transfer).
> 
> By the way where I live is by no means remote, It is in the
> Upper Hunter
> Valley, 2 and a half hours north west of Newcastle.
> 
> Women and babies deserve better.  Midwifery clinics can offer
> a choice to
> women that are patently unsafe now.  Midwifery clinics are not
> just better
> than birth on the side of the road, they can safely assist the
> majority of
> women with healthy pregnancies and refer the minority of women
> needing
> medical assistance.  At the moment none of this happens.
> 
> I would be happy to talk with you should you be open to
> hearing stories of
> rural women in this situation.
> 
> Kind regards
> 
> Justine Caines
> 
> Phone (02) 65482248
> 
> 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Tears and repairs

[Judy Chapman]

Honey,
I feel that 3rd and 4th deg tears are getting out of the
ordinary and the woman needs a really good repair to function
well afterwards, this puts it in the realms of an OB. As well as
that the repairs can be quite painful and it is not unreasonable
to offer a proper anaesthetic for it. There is an upper limit on
the amount of local one can give, probably not enough for such
an extensive tear. 
I watched an OB repair a 4th deg tear once and he explained each
step. By definition the rectal mucosa has been torn and it must
be repaired with no stitches through into the surface of the
mucosa, that increases the chance of infection and formation of
fistulas etc, very tricky work. Then the torn ends of the anal
sphincter muscles must be located and properly repaired or she
may end up with faecal incontinence. After that the perineum and
vaginal mucosa. A good repair takes ages. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Honey Acharya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I am curious about something (and I know it is fairly rare
> with homebirth) but for experienced midwives I assume you
> would stitch tears yourself even if they were 3rd or 4th
> degree, but I don't want to make assumptions so is that the
> case? Or would you transfer to hospital to have a doc stitch
> it,  or for  the extra pain relief so you could stitch it
> yourself? At what point?
> 
> Thanks
> Honey
> 




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Question

[Judy Chapman]

The only experience I have had of this is as the admitting
midwife when a woman came in from a home birth with a 4th degree
tear. She fed babe while waiting for OR, had the repair and went
home again when she had recovered from the anaesthetic. As I saw
her around town many times later I found that she had no
problems with it. 
Cheers
Judy


--- Philippa Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> This question/assumption was put forward on another list & I
> wondered whether you wonderful women would be able to answer
> it for me as I have no idea really.
> 
> What happens if the mother sustains a 3rd or 4th degree tear
> at a homebirth?
> 
> Do they then have to travel to a hospital to get it all
> repaired? Surely this would increase the possibility of
> infections and post birth problems?
> 
> I know there is NO WAY a midwife could stitch up that serious
> a tear so was just curious about what would happen in that
> situation (if anyone knows??)
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Philippa Scott
> Doula
> Birth Buddies
> Supporting Women ~ Creating Life
> President - Friends of the Birth Centre Townsville




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] wyong reopens

[Judy Chapman]

Fantastic news, Congratulaions to all. 
Cheers
Judy

--- diane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
> Hot breaking news today... Wyong birthing unit is opening next
> Monday as a low risk birthing unit. Anything outside the ACMI
> guidelines are refered or transfered to Gosford. We're so
> excited
> Cheers
> Diane




 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] care of the newborn

[Judy Chapman]

They obviiously don't believe the babies are normal healthy babies.
Judysally williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am sure we have discussed this before but as usual discarded info coz notrelevant to me at that point!!Does anyone have guidelines for care of the normal healthy term infant? I amembarrassed to ask, really, because for me it is not an issue. However, somemidiwves in our unit are doing pre-feed obs on all newborns until they gohome!!!Very frustrating, but true. I need something in black and white to put infront of them to show it is utterly and completely unnecessary.Thanks in advanceSally- Original Message -From: "Jo Bourne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 9:41 PMSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] another fyi...> I can't give you a bunch of references but my understanding is that thereis a lot of research out there supporting this !
 and none
 that contradicts it,at least in terms of fertility, I don't know as much regarding pregnancy.IVF clinics break down their stats by age for a reason. Here are SIVFsstats:>> http://www.sydneyivf.com/pages/success/index.cfm>> Most clinics give stats slightly differently (ie by clinical pregnancy orby live birth, by transfer or stim cycle) but they all break them down byage and SIVFs stats are probably better than average for older women. If youask your Fertility Specialist (if you are unfortunate enough to need one)about your specific chances a good clinic can give you stats for your ageand diagnosis. Age ALWAYS comes into it.>> The older you get the greater the chance is that a small problem thatmight have delayed conception will become a big problem that prevents it.Sometimes women who needed IVF for #1 fall pregnant naturally or more easilythe second time around but I seem to hear far more!
  often
 that #2 turns outto be even harder - the initial problem having been worsened by a couplemore years passing.>> Also to address something from the article that is not really correcthere - in Australia the highest risk of multiples is with lower end assistedreproduction such as ovulation induction or IUI, not IVF. In my case forexample we abandoned ovulation induction in favour of IVF to preventmultiples. In fact putting back only one embryo at a time you have lesschance of twins doing IVF than conceiving naturally (you can still getidentical twins, at a slightly higher rate than natural identicals, but yourule out fraternal twins which are far more common). Not really relevant tothe age thing but it's an annoying misconception.>> cheers> Jo>>> At 10:04 PM +1200 16/9/05, Safetsleep wrote:> >wonder how many studies involved .i would be interested to see theactual s!
 tudies
 and stats.,> >miriam> >> >- Original Message - From: "Jennifairy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;> >Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 9:37 PM> >Subject: [ozmidwifery] another fyi...> >> >>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4248244.stm> >>> >>Delaying babies 'defies nature'> >>*Women who wait until their late 30s to have children are defying natureand risking heartbreak, leading obstetricians have warned. *> >>> >>Over the last 20 years pregnancies in women over 35 have risen markedlyand the average age of mothers has gone up.> >>> >>Writing in the British Medical Journal, the London-based fertilityspecialists say they are "saddened" by the number of women they see who haveproblems.> >>>
 >>They say the best age for pregnancy remains 20 to 35.> >>> >>Over the last 20 years the average age for a woman to have their firstbaby has risen from 26 to 29.> >>> >>> >>* The message that needs to go out is 'don't leave it too late' *> >>Peter Bowen-Simpkins, Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists> >>> >>The specialists, led by Dr Susan Bewley, who treats women with high-riskpregnancies at Guy's and St Thomas' Hospital, warned age-related fertilityproblems increase after 35 and dramatically after 40.> >>> >>Other experts said it was right to remind women not to leave it toolate.> >>> >>* 'Having it all' *> >>> >>In the BMJ, the specialists write: "Paradoxically, the availability ofIVF may lull women into infertility while they wait for a suitable partner!
 and
 concentrate on their careers and achieving security and a comfortableliving standard."> >>> >>But they warn IVF treatment carries no guarantees - with a high failurerate and extra risks of multiple pregnancies where it is successful.> >>> >>For men, there are also risks in waiting until they are older to fatherchildren as semen counts deteriorate with age, they say.> >>> >>Once an older woman does become pregnant, she runs a greater risk ofmiscarriage, foetal and chromosomal abnormalities, and pregnancy-relateddiseases.> >>> >>They add: "Women want to 'have it all' but biology is unchanged.> >>> >>"Their delays may reflect disincentives to earlier pregnancy or maybe anunderlying resistance to childbearing as, despite the advantages broughtabout by feminism and equal opportunities legisl

Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: ] Friend with breach baby...told CS only options.

[Judy Chapman]

Thanks for this Gloria,
It makes things a lot clearer.
Cheers
Judy

--- G Lemay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> There ARE some important things with breech.  This is where
> your anatomy
> and physiology of the newborn is very important. 
> Understanding the
> circulatory system of the baby, the way the bones in the head
> fold over
> each other and the concept of creating an airway are some
> important
> considerations.  The main rule is "HANDS OFF", however, that
> is not all
> there is to it. With breech births it's important to have a
> period of 45
> mins from the time the woman feels like pushing till when she
> actively
> pushes, in order to prevent the head being caught on an
> undilated
> cervix.  Once the baby is born to the umbilicus, you have 7
> mins to
> complete the birth.  You want to avoid rushed handling but you
> also
> don't want to sit there like a lump.  The baby can be provoked
> to draw
> breath or shoot his/her arms above the head by meddlesome
> handling.  The
> body hanging (and I especially like the all 4's position for
> this) is
> Nature's way of bringing the back hairline to the introitus of
> the
> vulva.  Sometimes, even without stim. the arms will be up and
> it's
> important to turn the babe's hips using a cloth and not
> touching the
> delicate organs in the belly (you can rupture organs with your
> pointy
> little fingers when the baby's abdomen is engorged and your
> adrenal is
> running) so that the shoulders are antero-post diameter in the
> pelvis,
> then reaching in and gently sweeping them down.  sometimes
> this requires
> a second demi rotation for the second arm.  Once the babe's
> hairline is
> visible, then, it's important NOT to let the crown of the head
> "POP".
> Popping can result in a fatal tear to the cerebral
> tentorum---a drumlike
> membrane over the brain.  So, at this point, you reach a
> finger in, get
> the baby's lower jaw and gently pull the mouth and nose into
> sight.
> Once there, the mother is told "Stop all pushing."  Then she
> can stay
> like this for a very long time and all is well.  You want her
> to easy,
> easy, easy get the top of the head born so there is no "pop"
> and you
> know you have an airway to that baby.
> 
> One of the guidelines that Michel Odent stresses is to watch
> the first
> stage to tell you how the second stage will go with a breech. 
> If you
> have a smooth, progressive first stage, the second stage will
> follow
> that way.  If you're having a breech birth where the progress
> gets hung
> up or stuck and the butt doesn't come down to the vulva on its
> own, you
> want to consider cesarean as a safer option.
> Gloria
> 
>   Vedrana Valèiæ wrote:
> 
>  > Thank you, Gloria. In this article, it is said again that
> nothing must
>  > be done except flexing the head at the end and putting the
> woman in
>  > hands and knees position (or any position she feels right,
> I
>  > suppose?). Is there more to it than I'm getting. Because if
> there
>  > isn't, it sounds really simple to me. Do not interfere,
> just like in
>  > other kinds of births.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > Vedrana
> 
> 
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[ozmidwifery] I am steaming mad

[Judy Chapman]

Have just heard from my brother. One of his daughters has just
had her second baby, somewhere Melbourne way. First baby, normal
birth, not small but I don't know the weight. She was told this
one was big, probably over 11 lbs so she was scared and had a
CS. Came out less than 9 lb. Child is in SCBU (surprise,
surprise). Grrr
Judy

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Re: [ozmidwifery] FW: Article re. caesars....

[Judy Chapman]

Probably should send this one to Pesce if you already have not.
Judy


--- Denise Hynd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> Subject: RE: [MCMgtCte] FW: Article re. caesars
> 
> 
> See: http://www.forensic-psych.com/articles/artMedMal.html
> 
>  
> 
> A Plaintiff's Verdict: Meador v. Stahler and Gheridian -
> The $1.5 million award to a Massachusetts woman and her family
> in Meador v. Stahler and Gheridian3 made news as a rare
> instance of a malpractice judgment based on an allegedly
> unwanted and unnecessary cesarean section rather than a
> failure to perform such an operation. The plaintiff, Mary
> Meador, did not claim that the procedure was negligently
> performed or that the rare and disabling physical
> complications that resulted from it (which left her largely
> bedridden and unable to work or meet her family
> responsibilities for several years) were foreseeable. Instead,
> she claimed that the defendant obstetricians had
> misrepresented the risks of the alternative procedure (vaginal
> birth after prior cesarean) and ignored her persistent pleas
> for this alternative. Moreover, she alleged, they compelled
> her passive assent to the surgery in an emotionally coercive
> manner while she was progressing normally in labor, despite
> their having previously agreed to such a trial of labor. -
> Because the consequences of the cesarean were unforeseeable,
> and because Meador had signed a consent form for the surgery
> (to be used in case of emergency), this case did not meet the
> technical requirements specified under Massachusetts law4 for
> an action based on informed consent. Instead, the case was
> brought on the theory that the physicians' failure to obtain
> the patient's informed consent constituted substandard,
> negligent medical care. The forensic psychiatrist's expert
> testimony emphasized that the pro forma signing of a consent
> form did not constitute true informed consent, especially in
> light of the physicians' alleged disregard of the patient's
> expressed wishes and their inaccurate representation of the
> risks and benefits of the approach she preferred. 
> - The psychiatrist also explained to the jury how Meador's
> life history left her vulnerable to experiencing the denial of
> informed consent as a highly traumatic event. Having coped
> since childhood with serious illnesses in her family, Meador
> had viewed doctors and nurses as nurturing figures who helped
> her gain control of potentially tragic situations. She had
> learned that choice was still possible even amidst illness and
> death. She had even been inspired to become a nurse herself
> and to teach this discipline to others. Thus, when she
> experienced a sudden loss of choice and control during
> childbirth, she reacted with intense fear and horror and felt
> she had been betrayed by health professionals, whom she now
> feared and mistrusted. In this way she lost her accustomed
> strategy for coping with life. Moreover, having helped hold
> her original family together in the face of tragic illness,
> Meador saw the family she had created torn apart by her sudden
> and devastating loss of control in a medical situation. The
> jury's recognition of the importance of the emotional facts of
> the case was highlighted by its awarding almost one-third of
> the total damages for loss of consortium. -
> Thus, it was not simply the physically disabling consequences
> of the surgery, but the loss of personal decision-making power
> concerning her body, her health, and the birth of her child,
> that caused Meador to suffer from Post-Traumatic Stress
> Disorder. Similarly, her husband's experience of loss of
> consortium was exacerbated by the physicians' failure to
> consult him to interpret his wife's wishes during labor.
> Instead of having participated in a true informed-consent
> process, he was left to feel powerless and helpless. In this
> way, forensic psychiatric testimony established a persuasive
> causal link between the lack of informed consent and the
> physical and emotional damages suffered by the patient and her
> family.
> 
>  
> 
> Cheers,
> 
>  
> 
> C
> 
> 
>

> 
> Subject: [MCMgtCte] FW: Article re. caesars
> 
>  
> 
> The Midwife Strikes Back This is timely with NCAD next
> weekend but I
> must say Andrew P has his facts wrong. A woman sued an OB for
> an unnecessary
> cs in the US and this year won!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Subject: Article re. caesars
> 
> http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16490659-421,00.html
> 
> One third of Australian births to be caesars
> 
> By Adam Cresswell
> 05-09-2005
> From: The Australian
> 
> THE number of women giving birth by caesarean section is
> rising fast, and
> could soon hit a record of 32 per cent of deliveries - far
> higher than in
> countries such as Britain and New Zealand.
> 
> There are more than 250,000 births a year nationwide, and
> emerging hospital
> data indica

Re: [ozmidwifery] Re-learning how to do breech births

[Judy Chapman]

We northerners really enjoyed the workshop in Townsville last
year and I imagine there would be enough midwives to do another
up north, maybe sunny Cairns this time? 
Cheers
Judy

--- Andrea Robertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hello Denise,
> 
> There is a lot of interest in this workshop, but where and
> when we can get 
> it organised will depend on Maggie's availability. She is keen
> to help 
> Aussie midwives, and between us, we'll see what we can
> arrange. I know you 
> are keen in Perth will keep you posted.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Andrea
> 
> 
> At 04:53 PM 3/09/2005, you wrote:
> >Dear Andrea
> >When will you add Perth to the this program??
> >Denise Hynd
> >
> >"Let us support one another, not just in philosophy but in
> action, for the 
> >sake of freedom for all women to choose exactly how and by
> whom, if by 
> >anyone, our bodies will be handled."
> >
> >- Linda Hes
> >
> >- Original Message - From: "Andrea Robertson" 
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: 
> >Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 8:43 AM
> >Subject: [ozmidwifery] Re-learning how to do breech births
> >
> >
> >>Hello listers,
> >>
> >>Yesterday I was talking to Maggie Banks about scheduling
> some more of her 
> >>wonderful Birthspirit Intensive workshops for 2006. We hope
> to take in 
> >>Adelaide and Brisbane as well as Sydney and Melbourne next
> year, given 
> >>their enormous popularity (still a few places left in the
> December 
> >>program:
>
http://www.birthinternational.com/event/intensives2005/index.html
> >>
> >>Anyway, she mentioned that she now has a program designed to
> teach 
> >>midwives how to manage breech births, that is in the process
> of being 
> >>fully credentialled through the NZ College of Midwifery. She
> is now 
> >>touring NZ offering this program so that midwives feel
> confident in 
> >>facilitating this kind of birth, if it happens.
> >>
> >>Would there be enough interest in Australia for me to
> approach her to 
> >>present some of these workshops here?  It would make a very
> good 
> >>alternative to the ALSO program, and is completely midwifery
> based. As 
> >>far as I know, it is a one day program too.
> >>
> >>
> >>There has been quite a lot of discussion about breech births
> on the list 
> >>and the loss of skills as a result of the swing towards
> C/Sec. This might 
> >>be one way to help halt the slide.
> >>Please email me if you are interested. My email address is 
> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
> >>Regards,
> >>
> >>-
> >>Andrea Robertson
> >>Birth International * ACE Graphics * Associates in
> Childbirth Education
> >>
> >>e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>web: www.birthinternational.com
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> >>Visit  to subscribe or
> unsubscribe.
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> >>Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/86 - Release
> Date: 31/08/2005
> >>
> >
> >--
> >This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> >Visit  to subscribe or
> unsubscribe.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> -
> Andrea Robertson
> Birth International * ACE Graphics * Associates in Childbirth
> Education
> 
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: www.birthinternational.com
> 
> 
> --
> This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.
> Visit  to subscribe or
> unsubscribe.
> 







 
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Emailing: video05 you will like this

[Judy Chapman]

It's not bad, all in spanish but you get the drift with the
acting and prior knowledge of what goes on. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Ceri & Katrina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I got it, it was a email link for a video of a guy having a
> baby in a 
> very medicalised setting.
> 
> 
> 
> On 03/09/2005, at 3:51 AM, Gloria Lemay wrote:
> 
> > my virus scanner eliminated it.  Gloria
> >> - Original Message -
> >> From: Susan Cudlipp
> >> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> >> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 8:06 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Emailing: video05 you will like
> this
> >>
> >> Is this a genuine message or a virus?
> >> I thought that attachments could not be sent to the list -
> please all 
> >> be cautious and do not open unless it is verified
> >>  
> >> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for
> good men to 
> >> do nothing"
> >> Edmund Burke
> >>> - Original Message -
> >>> From: lyn lyn
> >>> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> >>> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 7:16 PM
> >>> Subject: [ozmidwifery] Emailing: video05 you will like
> this
> >>>
> >>>  
> >>> The message is ready to be sent with the following file or
> link 
> >>> attachments:
> >>> Shortcut to:
> http://www.clubcultura.com/haymotivo/video05.htm
> >>>
> >>> Note: To protect against computer viruses, e-mail programs
> may 
> >>> prevent sending or receiving certain types of file
> attachments.  
> >>> Check your e-mail security settings to determine how
> attachments are 
> >>> handled.
> >>>
> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> >>> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/88 - Release
> Date: 
> >>> 1/09/2005
> 


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RE: [ozmidwifery] Re: Breech Babies

[Judy Chapman]

I have just been surfing this site, some good stuff. I have a
multi with a breech at 36+ wke at the moment and I dearly want
her to be able to birth here. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Vedrana Valèiæ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> A very interesting discussion on breech births and midwives:
> 
> http://www.radmid.demon.co.uk/breech.htm 
> 
> Vedrana
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Miriam Hannay
> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 6:10 AM
> To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: Breech Babies
> 
> I totally understand, Susan about the whole fear of
> breech birth. We have a couple of OBs who will 'let'
> women birth a breech babe vaginally, but fully
> managed, IOL, 16 gauge bores in both arms, hartmann's
> up, McRoberts, episi, full extraction. To me this
> seems torture. I am a second year Bmid student and
> intending to go into independent practice, so am
> availing myself of every extra learning opportunity
> available.
> 
> A fellow student and I (my lovely partner in crime),
> attended Maggie Banks' emergency skills workshop in
> Melbourne recently which was SO valuable, and we feel
> much more comfortable about the possibility now. 
> 
> I have a dear friend whose first 'catch' as an RM was
> an undiagnosed breech at home, so it does happen. We
> need to be prepared and develop the skills to handle
> this situation. What a shame and potential danger it
> is if these skills fall by the way.
> 
> Everyone who can should hear Maggie Banks speak, she
> dispells fears and demystifies like no-one else.
> 
> Regards, Miriam (FUSA)
> 
> --- Susan Cudlipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Yes it was Brenda who wrote that, but I have also
> > been a midwife long enough 
> > to have seen many breech births - back in the UK,
> > and delivered a few 
> > myself.  Not all good, mostly quite 'managed' but at
> > least they were mostly 
> > seen as being manageable vaginally! My own elective
> > C/S (nearly 21 years old 
> > now!) was for primip breech, although I was given
> > the choice of vaginal 
> > birth, I knew just what that would entail within the
> > large unit that I was 
> > obliged to attend - epidural, forceps, episiotomy,
> > and I chose not to go 
> > there, however at that time there was no question
> > that I would not be able 
> > to have VBAC with the next - nowadays that is not
> > so.
> > 
> > A year or so back we had a multi with a breech who
> > was lucky enough to see a 
> > less interventionist OB (as you so rightly guessed
> > Melissa :-)) and she 
> > chose to have a vaginal birth. Of course it had to
> > be induced on the 'right' 
> > day, but was very straight forward. Apart from that 
> > we really don't see 
> > them anymore, and at least one of the few docs who
> > does do them does such a 
> > horrendous job that I would personally prefer a C/S
> > rather than submit to 
> > his handling.( you can probably guess that one too
> > Mel!)
> > 
> > It is sad that student midwives today will not learn
> > these essential skills 
> > within the hospital system.  Personally I feel
> > confident that I can handle 
> > an unexpected breech, but cannot see how the next
> > generation are going to 
> > cope with this, there is so much fear of what is
> > really only a different 
> > variety of birth, in the same way that any
> > 'different' presentation is. 
> > Anyone who has had the pleasure of hearing Maggie
> > Banks speak, watched her 
> > video, or that of Michel Odent's work in Pithiers
> > will know that this is 
> > true
> > 
> > Rachel, I totally empathise with how you are feeling
> > having just come to 
> > Australia from the UK (been here 15 years myself). 
> > It was a real shock to 
> > me to see how much all births are seen as being the
> > doctor's property.  One 
> > of my first births here was in a small hospital and
> > I called the GP as per 
> > protocol.  He arrived as I had the head in my hands
> > and proceeded to rush 
> > in, without even washing his hands and virtually
> > pushed me out of the way! 
> > I looked at him with horror and said quietly " I
> > think I may as well finish 
> > the job now don't you?"  He did step back and let me
> > finish.  Some years 
> > later he admitted that he had learned a few things
> > from me - one of which 
> > was to wait for restitution before trying to deliver
> > the shoulders!  They 
> > were always in such a goddamn hurry to drag the baby
> > out, it drove me mad.
> > 
> > >> When they are faced with an 'expert' obstetrician
> > (often a male authority 
> > >> figure) telling them their baby is in danger -
> > they will chose to protect 
> > >> their child because as a mother that is their
> > instinct.
> > >>
> > An example of this happened to me just this week -
> > the head was well and 
> > truly crowned (primip, long labour, NO fetal
> > distress) but OB insisted on 
> > listening to FH immediately ctx ended - it was about
> > 100, and 

Re: [ozmidwifery] More news on midwifery units

[Judy Chapman]

I hope the people of Mona Vale get behind the midwives and jump
up and down, loud and long as they did in Mareeba. If they don't
their service will be shelved for good. 
We certainly got somewhere with the help of the Hirst report and
the support of the Cairns OB's. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Andrea Robertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> These two stories are in the Sydney Morning Herald today,
> along with a big 
> colour photo, on page 3:
> 
> 
> Pregnant pause as birth program gets the push
> 
> By Ruth Pollard, Health Reporter
> September 2, 2005
> 
> No continuity … Lisa McLean, with son Luke, two, has lost her
> midwife.
> Photo: Peter Morris
> 
> The NSW Government has abandoned a midwife project at Mona
> Vale and Manly 
> hospitals, leaving up to 200 women - some of whom are due to
> give birth in 
> the coming month - to scramble to find places at other
> hospitals.
> 
> Just days before the project was to go ahead, the Northern
> Beaches Health 
> Service decided to shelve it and undertake a review of
> maternity services 
> in the area.
> 
> Lisa McLean, who is due to give birth in eight weeks, has been
> affected by 
> the change. She was attracted to the program because of the
> continuity of 
> care it provided to expectant mothers, who were to have been
> allocated to 
> one midwife for prenatal, birthing and postnatal care.
> 
> Now, the women must choose to give birth at the unit without
> personalised 
> midwives, or find obstetricians or birthing centres elsewhere.
> 
> Mrs McLean will stay with the unit but has no idea which
> midwife will be 
> caring for her and her baby. "It was to become more of a
> personal, 
> one-on-one experience; they are on call, they are there for
> the birth and 
> the follow-up afterwards. That is the reason a lot of women go
> to 
> obstetricians, even though they don't really need to, to have
> that 
> continuity of care."
> AdvertisementAdvertisement
> 
> The general manager of the Northern Beaches Health Service,
> Frank Bazik, 
> said he was not prepared to give his final approval to the
> project before 
> having all maternity services reviewed to determine which
> birthing model 
> was appropriate for each hospital.
> 
> Insisting that it had been deferred for only two to three
> months, Mr Bazik 
> said there had been no safety concerns about the program.
> "There have been 
> some meetings with the obstetricians about this proposed model
> and they are 
> supportive of it."
> 
> However, the Herald understands that staff have been told that
> "severe 
> budget problems" at the health service were a factor in the
> decision.
> 
> Sally Tracy, an associate professor of midwifery practice
> development at 
> the University of Technology, Sydney, said there was no reason
> to defer the 
> program. "I have no doubt that they have been bullied into not
> allowing 
> this service to go ahead … Clearly, there are people who have
> vested 
> interests in this, who do not want to see a service where
> women go to 
> midwives."
> ---
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doctors irked at lack of say in midwifery talks
> 
> September 2, 2005
> 
> 
> A rift has emerged between the NSW Government and the
> Australian Medical 
> Association, which says it has been shut out of consultations
> on the 
> development of maternity services.
> 
> So deep is the division that the association has begun a
> vigorous campaign 
> to reclaim ground in the debate.
> 
> Andrew Pesce, an obstetrician and senior member of the
> association, told 
> the Herald that while a recent review of six international
> studies had 
> found some "modest benefits" from midwife-assisted births, it
> had also 
> found "significant risks".
> 
> "It showed an 83 per cent increase in the risk of infant
> mortality," he said.
> 
> Dr Pesce said NSW Health had made a policy decision to exclude
> the 
> association from consultations, "presumably because they know
> how we will 
> respond". But Kathleen Fahy, the dean of midwifery at the
> University of 
> Newcastle, and the co-author of the review, Denis Walsh, have
> disputed Dr 
> Pesce's interpretation.
> AdvertisementAdvertisement
> 
> The review, by the international non-profit group the Cochrane
> 
> Collaboration, had not found "a significant difference in baby
> deaths and 
> it is less then honest of Dr Pesce … to imply that it did",
> Professor Fahy 
> said. After reviewing each of the studies included in the
> review she found 
> 60 per cent of women who were supposed to give birth assisted
> by a midwife 
> had been transferred to a hospital.
> 
> "Yet all the baby deaths were blamed on the birthing centres,
> even if the 
> baby died hours, days or months after transfer to medical
> care."
> 
> Most deaths were due to gross prematurity, gross abnormality
> or an 
> unexplained stillbirth, she said.
> 
> "Their [the doctors'] fear is that midwives will get a
> Medicare number and 
> set up in competition and women may choose midwives as their

Re: [ozmidwifery] Re:

[Judy Chapman]

Yeah,
We have an "expert" GP (not) who wants all women to be assessed
by a Dr on admission!!!  This in Mareeba where the Dr has not
been involved at all in normal birth for years and years. You
can imagine our reaction. Our OB in Cairns is NOT impressed and
has written to the appropriate place to say so. 
Cheers
Judy

--- Susan Cudlipp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Yes it was Brenda who wrote that, but I have also been a
> midwife long enough 
> to have seen many breech births - back in the UK, and
> delivered a few 
> myself.  Not all good, mostly quite 'managed' but at least
> they were mostly 
> seen as being manageable vaginally! My own elective C/S
> (nearly 21 years old 
> now!) was for primip breech, although I was given the choice
> of vaginal 
> birth, I knew just what that would entail within the large
> unit that I was 
> obliged to attend - epidural, forceps, episiotomy, and I chose
> not to go 
> there, however at that time there was no question that I would
> not be able 
> to have VBAC with the next - nowadays that is not so.
> 
> A year or so back we had a multi with a breech who was lucky
> enough to see a 
> less interventionist OB (as you so rightly guessed Melissa
> :-)) and she 
> chose to have a vaginal birth. Of course it had to be induced
> on the 'right' 
> day, but was very straight forward. Apart from that  we really
> don't see 
> them anymore, and at least one of the few docs who does do
> them does such a 
> horrendous job that I would personally prefer a C/S rather
> than submit to 
> his handling.( you can probably guess that one too Mel!)
> 
> It is sad that student midwives today will not learn these
> essential skills 
> within the hospital system.  Personally I feel confident that
> I can handle 
> an unexpected breech, but cannot see how the next generation
> are going to 
> cope with this, there is so much fear of what is really only a
> different 
> variety of birth, in the same way that any 'different'
> presentation is. 
> Anyone who has had the pleasure of hearing Maggie Banks speak,
> watched her 
> video, or that of Michel Odent's work in Pithiers will know
> that this is 
> true
> 
> Rachel, I totally empathise with how you are feeling having
> just come to 
> Australia from the UK (been here 15 years myself).  It was a
> real shock to 
> me to see how much all births are seen as being the doctor's
> property.  One 
> of my first births here was in a small hospital and I called
> the GP as per 
> protocol.  He arrived as I had the head in my hands and
> proceeded to rush 
> in, without even washing his hands and virtually pushed me out
> of the way! 
> I looked at him with horror and said quietly " I think I may
> as well finish 
> the job now don't you?"  He did step back and let me finish. 
> Some years 
> later he admitted that he had learned a few things from me -
> one of which 
> was to wait for restitution before trying to deliver the
> shoulders!  They 
> were always in such a goddamn hurry to drag the baby out, it
> drove me mad.
> 
> >> When they are faced with an 'expert' obstetrician (often a
> male authority 
> >> figure) telling them their baby is in danger - they will
> chose to protect 
> >> their child because as a mother that is their instinct.
> >>
> An example of this happened to me just this week - the head
> was well and 
> truly crowned (primip, long labour, NO fetal distress) but OB
> insisted on 
> listening to FH immediately ctx ended - it was about 100, and
> he took over 
> from me to apply forceps.  I was not concerned for the baby as
> I knew there 
> had been no compromise throughout and that he would be born
> within minutes, 
> but within the system I am obliged to defer to the doctor's
> judgement, 
> whether or not I agree with it.  Believe me, I know well what
> happens when 
> one tries to argue!!
> 
> I hope you maintain your own integrity and autonomy - it is
> very different 
> here to what we knew in UK, but we do need to keep pushing for
> midwifery led 
> care.   I feel that much of the problem lies with how we are
> percieved and 
> presented within this system.  We are seen as being secondary
> and forced 
> into a 'waitress' role, while doctors are glorified as being
> all-knowing 
> experts.  I have spent ages discussing things with couples
> only to have 
> everything overturned by a 5 minute doctor appointment.
> Nice to have your input on the list
> Sue
> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
> men to do 
> nothing"
> Edmund Burke
> - Original Message - 
> From: "brendamanning" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Re:
> 
> 
> > Rachel,
> >
> > Actually that was me (Brenda)not Sue,  who wrote about the
> physiological 
> > breeches, and I do realise now that experience is rare.
> > When you speak about choice & what you'd do if you had a
> breech baby 
> > yourself you are really limited because there are not many
> of

RE: [ozmidwifery] Men at births

[Judy Chapman]

 One of the most moving father involvements I have seen was many
years ago. Their first baby, she was sweaty and untidy and in
pain etc and he just kept whispering in her hear "You're
beautiful, I love you." Tear making stuff. They are still a
happy couple after another three children and 20 years. 
cheers
Judy
--- Miriam Hannay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'm with you, Megan!
> 
> To give birth to a beloved child is the ultimate
> expression of the emotional and sexual love my husband
> and I share.
> 
> He described me during labour and birth as being
> 'awesome, powerful, sexy, strong, more beautiful than
> ever before'. He even commented that the involuntary
> noises I made during birth were similar to the noises
> I make during orgasm!
> 
> Obviously, such an experience relies on the nature of
> the birth itself, We had three babes at home and one
> in hospital, all beautiful physiological births with
> no intervention. 
> 
> With regard retaining your 'sexual mystery', I'm not
> quite sure what there is about sex and sexuality
> that's 'mysterious'. If a couple's sexual relationship
> is open, honest, loving and passionate, does there
> need to be any 'mystery'? To me this smacks a little
> of patriarchal notions of women's role as sexual
> object... Gee, I hope my husband doesn't find anything
> about me mysterious after fourteen years, otherwise
> how would he know what I need and desire?!
> 
> What would be fantastic for men would be for all
> practitioners to actively facilitate a role for them
> during the birth process that makes them feel involved
> and reflects the extraordinary beauty of the
> experience. If only... regards, Miriam.
> 
> --- Megan & Larry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Its interesting how the conversation focuses on the
> > womans vagina.
> > What about the rest of her body?
> > My husband loved the feeling of my muscles working
> > in my body, he says they
> > have been different for each birth. 
> > The last 3 were water births, so no vagina watching
> > by any one. 
> > Speaking on his behalf, I know that he was and is so
> > awe inspired by
> > watching me have our babies, it only added to his
> > desire and love. 
> > So I guess the total experience of how women birth
> > is what we are looking
> > at. No surprises there!
> > The book, I think titled, Father Time, which is a
> > collection of interviews
> > of Australain men, discusses this and the men who
> > experienced homebirths
> > very clearly did not experience the trauma. 
> > 
> > I'm not sure about this "sexual mystery" thing
> > though. As a woman I take
> > great pride in having a uterus, vagina and breasts
> > that have created and
> > given life 4 times, its not all about "toys for
> > boys".
> > (Although having 4 sons kind of retracts that
> > statement)
> > 
> > My thoughts anyway
> > Megan
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Andrea Robertson
> > Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2005 10:26 AM
> > To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> > Subject: [ozmidwifery] Men at births
> > 
> > This is an interesting report in today's Sydney
> > Morning Herald. I remember
> > Michel Odent talking about research done in the US
> > that explored the effect
> > on a couple's sexual relationship when the man had
> > been exposed to the birth
> > process. Michel was advocating that women might want
> > to retain some of their
> > "sexual mystery" by excluding men from the birth
> > room. I have been at births
> > where I wondered how the father was taking the sight
> > of a practitioner
> > cutting an episiotomy.
> > 
> > What does everyone think about this?
> > 
> >
> http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/08/30/1125302566185.html
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Andrea
> > 
> > -
> > Andrea Robertson
> > Birth International * ACE Graphics * Associates in
> > Childbirth Education
> > 
> > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > web: www.birthinternational.com
> > 
> > 
> > --
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> > 
> > --
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> > 
> 
> 
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RE: [ozmidwifery] Fw: 'Higher risk' in midwife deliveries (http://theaustralian.com.au report)

[Judy Chapman]

You are so right about many Australian Midwives being prevented
from gaining the full spectrum of skills necessary for total
care of well women. As you said the answer is to give midwives
the opportunity to learn what they should not just want OB's
want them to learn. Those midwives who work independently, in
birth centres and some in hospitals have had to actively chase
the knowledge and experience necessary to do their work
properly. It is hard work sometimes. All worth it though when
you have a satisfying birth with a woman who you have developed
a relationship with antenatally. 
Cheers
Judy

--- wump fish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I think there is a difference between the training and skills
> of Australian 
> mw and UK mw. But, this largely exists due to the different
> maternity 
> systems and the blocks placed on practice by the obs. Your mw
> training is 
> reliant on the experiences you are able to access. For
> example, as a direct 
> entry mw in the UK my training began in the community with a
> community 
> midwife providing midwifery-led care with a family focus. By
> the end of our 
> course we were expected to be able to provide total care for
> 'normal' women 
> (including suturing).
> 
> I realise that I have a limited viewpoint at present, but I
> have noticed 
> that the mainstream perception of midwives is that we are
> nurses with a mid 
> specialisation, and even refer to each other as nurses. People
> are getting a 
> bit sick of me correcting them when they call me a nurse.
> Midwives are 
> prevented from maintaining and developing skills by hospital
> systems. For 
> example, I have been told I am not allowed to suture! Many mw
> do not rotate 
> and will only work in one area eg. postnatal. I am working on
> an escape plan 
> to get out of the maternity system as I can see my midwifery
> skills being 
> worn away.
> 
> I am sure that the independent mws and birth centre mws are
> more than able 
> to provide total care for women. But, I wonder if mws who have
> been trained 
> in the mainstream system and have only worked in this system
> would have the 
> skills, experience or confidence to provide total care for
> women.
> 
> If Dr Giltrap is correct, then the answer is not to leave
> birth the the obs, 
> but to improve mw education and empower the mw profession.
> 
> Rachel
> 
> >From: Vedrana Valèiæ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> >To: 
> >Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Fw: 'Higher risk' in midwife
> deliveries 
> >(http://theaustralian.com.au report)
> >Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:54:14 +0200
> >
> >" Obviously scary rubbish makes better news than
> >truthful lovely births."
> >
> >I think you are SO right there.
> >It seems to me that viewing birth as a disaster just waiting
> to happen, 
> >even if it is a "normal" birth, is Dr Giltrap's problem.
> Plus, I'm still 
> >trying to understand what he meant by:
> >"Dr Giltrap claimed Australian midwives were not as well
> trained as their 
> >European counterparts and Australian standards were often
> higher than those 
> >in Europe."
> >
> >There is a resolution by EU which states how many hours of
> what midwives 
> >have to have, and I doubt that it is more than you have in
> Australia.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Janet Fraser
> >Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 6:22 AM
> >To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au
> >Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Fw: 'Higher risk' in midwife
> deliveries 
> >(http://theaustralian.com.au report)
> >
> >Rachel (welcome btw!) I hear everything you're saying and I
> concur. It's so
> >transparently about a professional monopoly but their own
> brilliant
> >misinformation campaign is so entwined with our current
> cultural fears
> >around normal physiological birth that very little gets into
> the media to
> >contradict it. Of course what I really want is for them to
> have to answer
> >how all the guff they spout really stands up against the
> research but the
> >seven second soundbite only allows long enough for scare
> tactics, not
> >evidence. It's interesting to me that in many years of
> writing letters to
> >SMH and The Age, I have never had one published on birth
> issues. I've got
> >quite a track record on political issues of other kinds, but
> not even the
> >most benign letter on home birth or midwifery has made it
> into their
> >publications. Obs and midwives get published a bit but very
> rarely
> >consumers. I sent letters to every major paper plus regionals
> for Home 
> >Birth
> >Awareness Week last year, and not one was published. That's a
> lot of 
> >editors
> >making the same decision. Obviously scary rubbish makes
> better news than
> >truthful lovely births.
> >Food for thought!
> >J
> >--
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