Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

No.  But I read publicly available industry reports and news items and am 
referring to what I read.  Good enough?

Tom C.


>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 23:49:10 +
>
>Tom,
>You know Hoya management? Can you introduce them to the rest of us?
>Paul
>  -- Original message --
>From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > May be, but relative comparisons like that don't necessarially fly
> > with those holding the purse strings.
> >
> > I just can't see Hoya management, more pragmatic than the former
> > Pentax mgmt., going down a risky road with a 645D.
> >
> > Tom C.
> >
> > On 10/19/07, Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > So did Mamiya. Pentax is a lot more healthy.
> > >
> > > -Adam
> > >
> > > Tom C wrote:
> > > > Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades and did
> > > > have a respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to 
>today?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Tom C.
> > > >
> > > >> From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> > > >> To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
> > > >> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next 
>camera(s)
> > > >> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
> > > >>
> > > >> "645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web site. If 
>the
> > > >> 645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product 
>introduction.
> > > >> Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor 
>do I
> > > >> think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real 
>demand
> > > >> for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand for K 
>mount
> > > >> lenses."
> > > >>
> > > >> All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in stock.
> > > > Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide-angle 645
> > > > lenses, and they already have a new normal lens on the lens map.
> > > >> Joe
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
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Peso: An evening with Chuck Rose

[William Robb]

We went to see a friend of ours play at a local resteraunt tonight. I got a 
number of the standard man eats microphone pictures, amd a few that I 
thought were nice.
Here is one of them.

http://users.accesscomm.ca/wrobb/pictures/peso/guitar1.html

It's trying to be art, I think.

Technical:

K10, A*85mm/1.4 at f1.4 for 1/50th second.
The warmth is deliberate.

Have at it.

William Robb


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Re: PESO: Visitor in the office

[David Savage]

On 10/20/07, David Mann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Oct 20, 2007, at 4:09 AM, Charles Robinson wrote:
>
> > http://charles.robinsontwins.org/photos/2007/best/pages/page_79.html
>
> That's just begging for use on icanhascheezburger.com

LOL

I loved this one:



Cheers,

Dave

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Re: PESO: Visitor in the office

[David Mann]

On Oct 20, 2007, at 4:09 AM, Charles Robinson wrote:

> http://charles.robinsontwins.org/photos/2007/best/pages/page_79.html

That's just begging for use on icanhascheezburger.com

- Dave


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Re: I Guess Discrimination Cuts Both Ways...

[David Savage]

On 10/20/07, Tom C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> B&H
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2j7rz8

I wonder if their prices will go up to recoup the loss ?

:-)

Cheers,

Dave

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Re: 16-50, local stores etc.

[David Savage]

These sort of reports annoy the s#!t out of me.

Why the hell can't the retailers here stock some Pentax lenses

(I know why, but it's still frustrating.)

Cheers,

Dave

On 10/20/07, Igor Roshchin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> I stopped by a local store (Nelson) here, in San Diego.
> I was surprised by the inventory they had for Pentax
> K10D, K100D, 16-50/2.8 ($900), 50-135 ($1000), 77/1.8 ($1100),
> 40/2.8, 50 (?probably macro, f/2.8)...
> And this was at their smaller store in La Jolla.

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[David Savage]

On 10/20/07, Tom C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I just can't see Hoya management, more pragmatic than the former
> Pentax mgmt., going down a risky road with a 645D.

Given the recent news that the 645D project, while not scrapped, was
'no longer a priority for Pentax.' (Hiroshi Onoda, European general
manager for Imaging Systems) seems to bare this out.

But who really knows?

Cheers,

Dave

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[David Savage]

On 10/20/07, Tom C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >From: "David Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
> >than the current products on the market?
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Dave
> >
>
> Have to say it:
>
> >Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
> >than the current products on the market?
>
> Look at the K10D. :-) While I appreciate the low price, it's got to be hard
> to make money on a body that depreciates by 50% in one year.  It makes me
> wonder if they are still in the production line.  Some of the stores selling
> at $999 would probably have to lose money selling at $699.  I saw an *ist D
> online yesterday for $1299!
>
> In fact at $699 - $100 rebate, I'd expect the K10D to outsell the K100's.

I agree. The K10D is very well spec'ed, but undervalued. Which is good
for me. The money I saved on the body goes toward new lenses &
accessories.

And now that Hoya is in charge (& I assume looking good & hard at the
bottom line) I think the next product cycle may be priced differently.

Cheers,

Dave

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Re: Slightly OT: Right clicked images find there way home

[Paul Sorenson]

Dave -

Try using JAlbum as your gallery generator - the one Scott is using for 
the PUG gallery.  Right clicking on the image only gets you the link to 
"previous", "index page" or "next image".  At least, that's the way it 
works w/Firefox 2.0.0.8.

-p

David J Brooks wrote:
> Nope, does not work in the BBPro web pages.
> 
> I tried it in several locations in the head, and i still get the save
> picture as pop ups.
> 
> Dave
> 
> On 10/13/07, William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> Dave, drop this line into the head of any web page.
>>
>>  
>>
>> That will do it as best as you can.
>>
>> Here is a simple HTML:
>> 
>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>>  
>>   
>> 
>>   A Picture
>>  
>>
>>  
>>   I suck!!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> -> line>-
>> Note where I located the line mentioned.
>>
>> Now go here and try to save the picture using either right click or keyboard
>> shorcuts.
>>
>> http://users.accesscomm.ca/wrobb/temp/nytimes.html
>>
>> This will stop the casual web browser. As has been mentioned before, nothing
>> can stop the serious people who are intent on grabbing your content no
>> matter what.
>>
>> William Robb
>>
>>
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>> follow the directions.
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> 
> 


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Re: PAW 2007 - 43 - GDG

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

It's ok... I've hunted for it with a sampler and can't find it.
But if you see it, I suppose it's there somehow. Very odd.

Godfrey

> http://homepage.mac.com/ramarren/photo/PAW7/43.htm
>
>> As I stated in my original response, the very slight magenta  
>> streak runs
>> from the ULH side to the  LRH corner. Its in the area between the  
>> dark sky &
>> light. And yes, I still see it.



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RE: Lens purchase saga

[Rod Connan]

Thanks Paul - It was just worth waiting with the price difference and the
additional import penalty I would have been hit with.

It is great that any purchase under AU$1000 is not subject to 10% GST. GST
is like a US state sales tax essentially but it hurts when you just go over
the I grand and you get about $60+ in clearance charges too :(

Rod

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 

Good luck then. That is a great price. B&H did have the 16-50 last I looked.
Probably Wednesday or Tuesday of this week. My problem with Adorama was with
a Sandisk card that was defective from day one. They insisted I return it to
the manufacturer, who made me jump through hoops. 
Paul
 -- Original message --
From: "Rod Connan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Look again Paul, I just went to B&H to check their current price and find
> that at this moment they do not have the DA* 16-50 on their site either. I
> am getting the 16-50 and for some reason Adorama did not receive any of
the
> first shipment - I have it on order for US$750 which they apparently will
> honour. 
> 
> With B&H originally at around US$900 originally (and still relatively high
> last time I looked, relying on my memory) the Adorama price was a _lot_
> cheaper. Also, with the exchange rate as it was when the first lot
appeared
> I would have been up for another AU$160+ (Duty and customs fees if the AU
> dollar value was over AU$1000) which it would have been with the B&H
price.
> It would have been just too expensive so I have stuck with my Adorama
order
> as I was and am not desperate for a lens to fill a gap. 
> 
> I have never returned anything to Adorama as all I have received has been
> satisfactory but I will bear your comment in mind.
> 
> Rod


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[P. J. Alling]

So is the Cotty cam.

Sandy Harris wrote:
> On 10/20/07, Tom C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>   
>> Is there any camera on the market that has a 1.2/1.3 crop at the moment?  It
>> does not make sense to me to shoot for somewhere between APS-C and FF. You
>> wouldn't *need* new lenses of course...
>> 
>
> Leica M8 is 1.33 or so.
>
>   


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Re: PAW 2007 - 43 - GDG

[ann sanfedele]

Kenneth Waller wrote:

>"ann sanfedele"
>  
>
>>that what you see on the monitor that
>>magenta streak, can come from a kind of eye problem whose name I don't
>>know...  but of course,
>>
>>
>
>Yeah, it must be an eye problem - I only see the magenta streak when looking 
>@ that image.
>  
>
LOL!

http://homepage.mac.com/ramarren/photo/PAW7/43.htm


>>Where is the streak you see?  do you still see it?
>>
>>
>As I stated in my original response, the very slight magenta streak runs 
>from the ULH side to the  LRH corner. Its in the area between the dark sky & 
>light. And yes, I still see it.
>  
>

Ok I looked at it in firefox and netscape,, still don't see it...
I'm not trying to be annoying, Ken, I'm really intrigued  -  could it be 
your monitor?
is the streak there and I can't see it?  is it something in the working 
of our eyes ?  or
the pixels?   But truly, if you are the only one on list that sees the 
streak it does
seem to indicate either there is something odd going on with your 
monitor or your eyes...


Understand I'm being "mom"here -- what does the missus see?  

ann

>
>Kenneth Waller
>http://tinyurl.com/272u2f
>
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "ann sanfedele" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: PAW 2007 - 43 - GDG
>
>
>  
>
>>Kenneth Waller wrote:
>>
>>
>>
I don't see the magenta - either the trhee of us are really going blind
or Ken needs a trip to
the eye doctor ;)




>>>I won't deny a trip to the eye doctors would probably help my close 
>>>distance
>>>focus, but I've never had an issue with color.
>>>
>>>Kenneth Waller
>>>http://tinyurl.com/272u2f
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>Well, I would say the same of mine - but I think, and I may be wrong,
>>that what you see on the monitor that
>>magenta streak, can come from a kind of eye problem whose name I don't
>>know...  but of course,
>>looking at the screen and away at something else, or vice versa, could
>>bring it about...
>>where is the streak you see?  do you still see it?
>>
>>ann
>>
>>
>>
>>>- Original Message - 
>>>From: "ann sanfedele" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
>>>Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 1:23 AM
>>>Subject: Re: PAW 2007 - 43 - GDG
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:





>I don't either; it's a grayscale rendering .. ??
>
>Godfrey
>
>
>
>  
>
I don't see the magenta - either the trhee of us are really going blind
or Ken needs a trip to
the eye doctor ;)

godders, this isn't my kind of picture, either, and given my proximity
to certain structures in NY
I find it rather creepy...  that is, I still have a real hard time
looking up at a plane in the sky

ann





>On Oct 18, 2007, at 7:36 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>>Hi Ken,
>>I don't see a magenta band. But I frequently miss things other people
>>see.
>>Paul
>>On Oct 18, 2007, at 8:07 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>As posted, it has a very light magenta band to it running from ULH
>>>to LRH
>>>corner.
>>>The subject matter is un-interesting to me & I'm a little in a
>>>quandary as
>>>to the composition.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
http://homepage.mac.com/ramarren/photo/PAW7/43.htm




>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>
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>>follow the directions. 
>>
>>
>
>
>  
>



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Re: Test

[P. J. Alling]

321 

Tom C wrote:
> 123
>
>
>
> Tom C.
>
>
>
>   


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Re: Test

[P. J. Alling]

failfailfailfailfailfailfailfailfail

Tom C wrote:
> testtesttesttesttesttesttesttesttest
>
>
>
> Tom C.
>
>
>
>   


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Re: PAW 2007 - 43 - GDG

[Bob Sullivan]

Ken,
I don't see it on my laptop.
Perhaps it is an artifact on your screen???
Regards, Bob S.

On 10/19/07, Kenneth Waller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "ann sanfedele"
> > that what you see on the monitor that
> > magenta streak, can come from a kind of eye problem whose name I don't
> > know...  but of course,
>
> Yeah, it must be an eye problem - I only see the magenta streak when looking
> @ that image.
>
> > where is the streak you see?  do you still see it?
> As I stated in my original response, the very slight magenta streak runs
> from the ULH side to the  LRH corner. Its in the area between the dark sky &
> light. And yes, I still see it.
>
>
> Kenneth Waller
> http://tinyurl.com/272u2f
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "ann sanfedele" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: PAW 2007 - 43 - GDG
>
>
> > Kenneth Waller wrote:
> >
> >>>I don't see the magenta - either the trhee of us are really going blind
> >>>or Ken needs a trip to
> >>>the eye doctor ;)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>I won't deny a trip to the eye doctors would probably help my close
> >>distance
> >>focus, but I've never had an issue with color.
> >>
> >>Kenneth Waller
> >>http://tinyurl.com/272u2f
> >>
> > Well, I would say the same of mine - but I think, and I may be wrong,
> > that what you see on the monitor that
> > magenta streak, can come from a kind of eye problem whose name I don't
> > know...  but of course,
> > looking at the screen and away at something else, or vice versa, could
> > bring it about...
> > where is the streak you see?  do you still see it?
> >
> > ann
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>- Original Message -
> >>From: "ann sanfedele" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
> >>Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 1:23 AM
> >>Subject: Re: PAW 2007 - 43 - GDG
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> I don't either; it's a grayscale rendering .. ??
> 
> Godfrey
> 
> 
> 
> >>>I don't see the magenta - either the trhee of us are really going blind
> >>>or Ken needs a trip to
> >>>the eye doctor ;)
> >>>
> >>>godders, this isn't my kind of picture, either, and given my proximity
> >>>to certain structures in NY
> >>>I find it rather creepy...  that is, I still have a real hard time
> >>>looking up at a plane in the sky
> >>>
> >>>ann
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> On Oct 18, 2007, at 7:36 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >Hi Ken,
> >I don't see a magenta band. But I frequently miss things other people
> >see.
> >Paul
> >On Oct 18, 2007, at 8:07 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>As posted, it has a very light magenta band to it running from ULH
> >>to LRH
> >>corner.
> >>The subject matter is un-interesting to me & I'm a little in a
> >>quandary as
> >>to the composition.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> http://homepage.mac.com/ramarren/photo/PAW7/43.htm
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
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Re: PAW 2007 - 43 - GDG

[Kenneth Waller]

"ann sanfedele"
> that what you see on the monitor that
> magenta streak, can come from a kind of eye problem whose name I don't
> know...  but of course,

Yeah, it must be an eye problem - I only see the magenta streak when looking 
@ that image.

> where is the streak you see?  do you still see it?
As I stated in my original response, the very slight magenta streak runs 
from the ULH side to the  LRH corner. Its in the area between the dark sky & 
light. And yes, I still see it.


Kenneth Waller
http://tinyurl.com/272u2f


- Original Message - 
From: "ann sanfedele" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: PAW 2007 - 43 - GDG


> Kenneth Waller wrote:
>
>>>I don't see the magenta - either the trhee of us are really going blind
>>>or Ken needs a trip to
>>>the eye doctor ;)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I won't deny a trip to the eye doctors would probably help my close 
>>distance
>>focus, but I've never had an issue with color.
>>
>>Kenneth Waller
>>http://tinyurl.com/272u2f
>>
> Well, I would say the same of mine - but I think, and I may be wrong,
> that what you see on the monitor that
> magenta streak, can come from a kind of eye problem whose name I don't
> know...  but of course,
> looking at the screen and away at something else, or vice versa, could
> bring it about...
> where is the streak you see?  do you still see it?
>
> ann
>
>>
>>
>>- Original Message - 
>>From: "ann sanfedele" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
>>Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 1:23 AM
>>Subject: Re: PAW 2007 - 43 - GDG
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
I don't either; it's a grayscale rendering .. ??

Godfrey



>>>I don't see the magenta - either the trhee of us are really going blind
>>>or Ken needs a trip to
>>>the eye doctor ;)
>>>
>>>godders, this isn't my kind of picture, either, and given my proximity
>>>to certain structures in NY
>>>I find it rather creepy...  that is, I still have a real hard time
>>>looking up at a plane in the sky
>>>
>>>ann
>>>
>>>
>>>
On Oct 18, 2007, at 7:36 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote:





>Hi Ken,
>I don't see a magenta band. But I frequently miss things other people
>see.
>Paul
>On Oct 18, 2007, at 8:07 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>>As posted, it has a very light magenta band to it running from ULH
>>to LRH
>>corner.
>>The subject matter is un-interesting to me & I'm a little in a
>>quandary as
>>to the composition.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> http://homepage.mac.com/ramarren/photo/PAW7/43.htm
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[P. J. Alling]

The same people who will spend twice list price for used equipment on 
e-Bay that is still available new through B&H and Adorama. What is e-Bay 
if not the ultimate garage sale?

Tom C wrote:
> And just who will buy it at $999 when it can be had for $599? I want 
> to meet those people, because I have some items in my garage I'd like 
> to get rid of.
>
> Tom C.
>
>> From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>> Not exactly free fall, you can find it for $599, (after rebate), but a
>> lot of places are still selling it for 999 or more.
>>
>> Adam Maas wrote:
>> > $599 after rebate isn't cheap enough? The K10D's price has been in 
>> freefall for the last couple of months.
>> >
>> > -Adam
>> >
>> >
>> > Rebekah wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hopefully a new camera will drive down the price of the K10 :)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> But this 'I want FF' thing is really out of proportion IMO.
>> >>>
>> >> What's wrong with dreaming of FF?
>> >>
>> >> rg2
>> >>
>> >> On 10/19/07, Jack Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Feels right, Paul.
>> >>>
>> >>> Jack
>> >>> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>>  It wouldn't be logical from a marketing point of view to 
>> introduce a
>>  camera that can't use the lenses that you've just introduced. 
>> The DA*
>>  60-250 hasn't even seen the light of day yet. Plus, most of the 
>> full
>>  frame lenses seem to have been discontinued. I suspect that the 
>> only
>>  ones being sold now are existing stock. Of course we might one day
>>  see a full frame camera along with a new line of lenses, but I 
>> doubt
>>  that Pentax is ready for that now.
>>  Paul
>>  -- Original message --
>>  From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> 
>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> >
>> > >From what Adam has told us about the newest sensors, 12
>> >
>> >> megapixels with good noise characteristics might well be possible
>> >> at 1.5.
>> >>
>> > Could be. But every so often I look at what Nikon's getting 
>> from 12
>> > megapixels at full-frame...
>> >
>> >
>> > --
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>> 
>> >>> __
>> >>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> >>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> >>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>> >>>
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>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
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>> -- 
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>>
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Re: Starfighters & Co. (was: Completely and totally OT: Politics)

[Evan Hanson]

>
> And now, let's discuss WWII planes with a quiz for warbird buffs  
> out there.
> Please take a look at www.dariobonazza.com/public/KGP03047.jpg
> What's that?
>
> Ciao,
>
> Dario
>

Is it a Yak-9?
Evan

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[John Francis]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 12:21:49PM -0600, Tom C wrote:
> I can't see non-645 owners jumping to a 645D in masses.
> The 645D would be a low volume seller compared to a 24 x 36 FF body. . .

That's a big assumption; I'm by no means convinced you are right.

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[pnstenquist]

Exactly. And in order to keep the size reasonable, the image circle is usually 
no larger than it has to be. Of course, the difference in size is reduced at 
longer focal lengths.
Paul
 -- Original message --
From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> The center of a lens has always been optimized for the center of the image 
> circle it projects. :-)
> 
> Tom C.
> 
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
> >Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 18:56:16 +
> >
> >It's reportedly "optimized" for the 1.5 image circle. Whether it will cover 
> >full frame is another matter, but I'd expect some softness and vignetting 
> >at the corners.
> >Paul
> >  -- Original message --
> >From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >
> > > >It wouldn't be logical from a marketing point of view to introduce a
> > > >camera that can't use the lenses that you've just introduced.
> > >
> > > Of course. You'll note I mentioned that I *didn't* expect the new
> > > camera to be FF. I'm *hoping* it's more than APS-C.
> > >
> > > >The DA* 60-250 hasn't even seen the light of day yet.
> > >
> > > Not a good example: I expect this lens will be FF. :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
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Re: Ned Bunnell and "Pentax Pro Services" announcement

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

On Oct 19, 2007, at 4:25 PM, Adam Maas wrote:

>> Oly's had a Pro Support Services for some time, Adam. It's just darn
>> hard to qualify for it ... You have to prove that something like 80%
>> or more of your income comes from the use of Olympus brand camera
>> equipment. I have three friends who are members and they tell me that
>> the service level it provides is outstanding, but it took each of
>> them over a year to qualify.
>>
>> Godfrey
>>
>>
>
> Interesting, then I wonder what their new 'Elite' club is, maybe a  
> lower
> level of that.
>

here's the page:

http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/oima_slr_ogps.asp

Godfrey


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

Canon 1D series, Leica M8.

One never "needs" new lenses. You only have to think creatively and  
use the lenses you have. You might not be able to do *exactly* what  
you used to do, but for many that's not really such a terrible thing  
to deal with... ;-)

Photographers shouldn't be so equipment-bound.

G

On Oct 19, 2007, at 2:24 PM, Tom C wrote:

> Is there any camera on the market that has a 1.2/1.3 crop at the  
> moment?  It
> does not make sense to me to shoot for somewhere between APS-C and  
> FF. You
> wouldn't *need* new lenses of course...


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

The center of a lens has always been optimized for the center of the image 
circle it projects. :-)

Tom C.

>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 18:56:16 +
>
>It's reportedly "optimized" for the 1.5 image circle. Whether it will cover 
>full frame is another matter, but I'd expect some softness and vignetting 
>at the corners.
>Paul
>  -- Original message --
>From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > >It wouldn't be logical from a marketing point of view to introduce a
> > >camera that can't use the lenses that you've just introduced.
> >
> > Of course. You'll note I mentioned that I *didn't* expect the new
> > camera to be FF. I'm *hoping* it's more than APS-C.
> >
> > >The DA* 60-250 hasn't even seen the light of day yet.
> >
> > Not a good example: I expect this lens will be FF. :)
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Pål Jensen]

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> The market changes fast.  I think Pentax missed the mark with the 645D. 
> If
> it was released 2 years ago it might have had a chance.

No chance at all. It would have been far too expensive. Only when the cost 
is right will a 645D have any chance


>But, as you point
> out, much of the MF market has already gone to the high end Canons.


Sure. Just like the biggest buyer group for the 645N was Canon EOS1 
owners


> Personally, I think releasing a high-priced, non-main-stream camera body
> right now would be just about the stupidest move Pentax could make.  It's
> sales would be dwarfed by the continued popularity of high end Canons and
> now the D3.  Pentax needs to sell as many bodies and lenses as possible,
> plus look competitve in the marketplace.  I don't see the 645 filling that
> spot.


They have to do both... 



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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Bob Blakely]

Whoa! That's from years ago! Stop scaring me!

Regards,
Bob...

"Art is not a reflection of reality. it is the reality of a reflection." 
  -Jean Luc Godard
 
- Original Message - 
From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)


> Mafud? (whoops)...


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Pål Jensen]

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



> Given the reports on Hoya's management priorities, I can't see them 
> allowing
> Pentax to embark down a road on a niche-market, low-volume product.

According to Pentax and subsequently Hoya they want to be niche maker 
concentrating on the higher end...

>
> The simple fact is that 645 format MF cameras are off the radar of the 
> vast
> majority of the camera buying public.
>
> It would be a stupid business move.  The only people it would make happy 
> is
> those interested in a 645D from Pentax, which is very few people.

It is off the radar because no one is making an "affordable" one 



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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Mafud? (whoops)...



Tom C.


>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:48:15 +
>
>colostomy bag?
>  -- Original message --
>From: "David Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > ,,,or douchebag.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > On 10/20/07, Jack Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > "Dirtbag" shouldn't be overlooked.
> > >
> > > Jack
> > > --- Kenneth Waller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ah, you've forgotten the venerable Barfbag !
> > > >
> > > > Kenneth Waller
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/272u2f
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Original Message -
> > > > From: "mike wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next
> > > > camera(s)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Cotty wrote:
> > > > >> On 19/10/07, Christian, discombobulated, unleashed:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>I thought Cotty was the only one able to bestow shitbag status on
> > > > a list
> > > > >>>member.  I'm feeling that my exclusive club is becoming over run
> > > > with
> > > > >>>pseudo-shitbags.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The pecking order is
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 1. Shitbag
> > > > >> 2. Fartbag
> > > > >> 3. Sleazebag.
> > > > >
> > > > > Honourable mention:
> > > > > Ratbag
> >
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RE: Haven't posted a PESO in a while...

[Tom C]

Nicely done!

Tom C.


>From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>So here's one from a couple of years ago:
>http://www.robertstech.com/pages/fotoblog/7d504802.htm
>
>ist-D and 43 Limited.
>Adjustments in Photoshop for color/levels/curves, but the
>impressionistic effect is caused by photographing the reflection of the
>chateau in the water.
>
>Oh yeah... I also used Photoshop to flip the image 180 degrees so it's
>right side up :)
>



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Re: PESO - Beach Scene

[Tom C]

>From: ann sanfedele <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: PESO - Beach Scene
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 16:27:28 -0400
>
>Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
>
> >From: "Bruce Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >
> >>Pentax K10D, DA* 50-135/2.8 @ 123mm
> >>ISO 800, 1/3000 sec @ f/4.5, Handheld
> >>
> >>http://www.daytonphoto.com/PAW/ptreyes_0097.htm
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I like the light and overall feel. However it feels tilted to my eye
> >due to the way the foreground and background interact, which is
> >distracting.
> >
> >Godfrey
> >
> >
> >
>hey, Godders -- I see what you mean - but I thought the overall photo
>was so strong I didn't notice it at first -
>Bruce, would too much be lost if you ever so slgihtly corrected it by
>  sa 1 or 2 degrees so the top of
>the near water was really horizontal?
>
>ann

Funny.  I feel the overall photo is not strong, my opinion of course.  Sorry 
on this one Bruce. I think the  image is too soft in the foreground due the 
focus being on the rocks and a short DOF.  I can see a very a nice scenic if 
the bottom water area was not there, the person was not there and the 
foreground was in focus.



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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

May be, but relative comparisons like that don't necessarially fly with 
those holding the purse strings.

Tom C.

>From: Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:24:47 -0400
>
>So did Mamiya. Pentax is a lot more healthy.
>
>-Adam
>
>Tom C wrote:
> > Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades and did
> > have a respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to today?
> >
> >
> > Tom C.
> >
> >> From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >> To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
> >> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next 
>camera(s)
> >> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
> >>
> >> "645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web site. If the
> >> 645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product introduction.
> >> Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor do I
> >> think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real demand
> >> for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand for K 
>mount
> >> lenses."
> >>
> >> All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in stock.
> > Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide-angle 645
> > lenses, and they already have a new normal lens on the lens map.
> >> Joe
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades and did have a 
respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to today?


Tom C.

>From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
>
>"645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web site. If the
>645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product introduction.
>Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor do I
>think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real demand
>for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand for K mount
>lenses."
>
>All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in stock. 
>Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide-angle 645 
>lenses, and they already have a new normal lens on the lens map.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
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Re: PESO - Moonrise

[Tom C]

SMELL.

Tom C.

>From: Jack Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: PESO - Moonrise
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:04:59 -0700 (PDT)
>
>If you are in such areas, how would I know? ;-))
>
>Jack
>--- David J Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > On 10/17/07, Jack Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Rarely am I thoroughly comfortable with a scene which includes
> > large,
> > > dark featureless areas.
> >
> > So you have seen photos of me at GFM then.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >  I always envision that I could have made out
> > > some detail, however subtle.
> > > Just me.(?)
> > >
> > > Jack
> > >
> > > --- Bruce Dayton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Taken this past Saturday in Pt Reyes near San Francisco.  We
> > actually
> > > > went to see some of the wildlife and at the end of the day on the
> > way
> > > > back, we were confronted with the scene.  I have rendered it just
> > as
> > > > we saw it.  It was a fairly low key, peaceful scene rather than
> > an
> > > > overly punchy scene.
> > > >
> > > > Pentax K10D, DA* 50-135/2.8 @ 70mm, Tripod mounted
> > > > ISO 200, 4 sec @ f/5.6, manual everything
> > > >
> > > > http://www.daytonphoto.com/PAW/ptreyes_0137a.htm
> > > >
> > > > In light of the discussions, I guess some may like this and say
> > so,
> > > > some may critique, some may nothing and possibly no one will
> > comment.
> > > > But that is ok, I'll deal with whatever comes.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Bruce
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
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> > >
> > > __
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> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
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> >
> > --
> > Equine Photography
> > www.caughtinmotion.com
> > http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/
> > Ontario Canada
> >
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

And just who will buy it at $999 when it can be had for $599? I want to meet 
those people, because I have some items in my garage I'd like to get rid of.


Tom C.


From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



Not exactly free fall, you can find it for $599, (after rebate), but a
lot of places are still selling it for 999 or more.

Adam Maas wrote:
> $599 after rebate isn't cheap enough? The K10D's price has been in 
freefall for the last couple of months.

>
> -Adam
>
>
> Rebekah wrote:
>
>> Hopefully a new camera will drive down the price of the K10 :)
>>
>>
>>> But this 'I want FF' thing is really out of proportion IMO.
>>>
>> What's wrong with dreaming of FF?
>>
>> rg2
>>
>> On 10/19/07, Jack Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> Feels right, Paul.
>>>
>>> Jack
>>> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>
>>>
 It wouldn't be logical from a marketing point of view to introduce a
 camera that can't use the lenses that you've just introduced. The DA*
 60-250 hasn't even seen the light of day yet. Plus, most of the full
 frame lenses seem to have been discontinued. I suspect that the only
 ones being sold now are existing stock. Of course we might one day
 see a full frame camera along with a new line of lenses, but I doubt
 that Pentax is ready for that now.
 Paul
  -- Original message --
 From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >From what Adam has told us about the newest sensors, 12
>
>> megapixels with good noise characteristics might well be possible
>> at 1.5.
>>
> Could be. But every so often I look at what Nikon's getting from 12
> megapixels at full-frame...
>
>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

I can't see non-645 owners jumping to a 645D in masses.  The 645D would be a 
low volume seller compared to a 24 x 36 FF body.  If used glass is so 
readily available, Pentax would not be making money there.

OTOH, if a 24 x 36 FF priced-within-reason body was released, a large number 
of current Pentax owners would likely upgrade.  Pentax has the lens know-how 
to make the lenses.  I was under the impression that Pentax has sold quite a 
number of extremely nice 35 mm lenses over the years, A, FA, etc.  It hasn't 
just been all consumer zooms and cheap 50mm primes.

The market changes fast.  I think Pentax missed the mark with the 645D.  If 
it was released 2 years ago it might have had a chance.  But, as you point 
out, much of the MF market has already gone to the high end Canons.

Personally, I think releasing a high-priced, non-main-stream camera body 
right now would be just about the stupidest move Pentax could make.  It's 
sales would be dwarfed by the continued popularity of high end Canons and 
now the D3.  Pentax needs to sell as many bodies and lenses as possible, 
plus look competitve in the marketplace.  I don't see the 645 filling that 
spot.

Tom C.


>From: Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:41:07 -0400
>
>Tom,
>
>One thing you are forgetting is that pro-level 645 glass is far more 
>readily available than the equivalent 35mm glass (outside of the FA 
>Limiteds, the 50/1.4 and 35/2). I can readily get lenses like the 35/3.5 in 
>645 mount, but not so much for the 20/2.8 or 85/1.4 in K mount, let alone a 
>28-70 f2.8 FA*. If Pentax wants to play in the Pro market, they will either 
>need to flood the market with a whole series of new pro-level 35mm lenses, 
>or go 645 which actually has the needed glass available used.
>
>100,000 28-80 f4-5.6's and a couple million 50mm f2's does not a pro lens 
>market make. The large number of consumer K mount lenses help prop up 
>Pentax's consumer market, but they're next to worthless to pro shooters.
>
>Also the market for an inexpensive 645 DSLR is mostly untapped. Mamiya is 
>the only real player there (with the ZD Back and 645ZD bundle) and they're 
>so strapped for supply that they're essentially ignoring the larger UK and 
>US markets in order to keep up with demand in Europe, Japan and Canada. If 
>they could keep up with worldwide demand, they'd probably start posting 
>numbers the size of the rest of the MF Digital market The issue there has 
>always been cost, not demand, keeping the market small, with MF shooters 
>moving to the 1Ds because it was the only economic choice for that level of 
>resolution.
>
>-Adam
>
>
>
>Tom C wrote:
> > Are you sure those lenses are in production?  Designed maybe, but I 
>would
> > think otherwise in the same status as the 645D.  They're not making 
>lenses
> > for a camera that's not on the production line.
> >
> > I'm not expecting it or holding my breath, but to me it makes *more 
>sense*
> > to produce a FF 24 X 36 body than the 645D. Here's why:
> >
> > 1. Canon and Nikon both now have FF bodies on the market.  If Pentax can 
>get
> > one out in short order they can be #3 to do so, ahead of Sony and 
>Olympus.
> > That would be a big feather in Pentax's cap.
> >
> > 2. The sales of a 645D would be relatively small compared to the sales 
>of a
> > FF 24 x 36 body because the market is smaller.  Pentax 35mm body/lens 
>owners
> > out number Pentax 645 owners by a large factor.  Can't begin to guess 
>what
> > it is, 100-to-1, 1000-to-1?
> >
> > 3. Moving to a 645 format is much costlier to non-645 system owners 
>because
> > they must buy into a whole new system.  I'd personally be more likely to 
>buy
> > a FF Canon or Nikon 24 x 36 body if I was going to change systems.  Last 
>but
> > not least it would still fit in the same camera bag. :-)
> >
> > 4. Pentax can do the in body sensor crop when DA lenses are attached,
> > preserving the usefulness of the DA lens series for those that have
> > purchased them.
> >
> > 5. It can't be any harder for Pentax to design and manufacture a FF 24 x 
>36
> > body than the 645.  They have all the basics. Yes they would need to
> > reeingineer the image processing engine, have a larger LCD,  and other
> > firmware/hardware changes, but that's a given with any new camera model.
> > The only thing really holding them back would be whether they can obtain 
>a
> > sensor at a price point that will put the resulting product within reach 
>of
> > a large number of customers.
> >
> > Like I said at the start.  I'm not expecting it but it makes sense in a 
>lot
> > of ways.
> >
> >
> > Tom C.
> >
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next 
>camera(s)
> >> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 14:42:50

Test

[Tom C]

testtesttesttesttesttesttesttesttest



Tom C.



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RE: PESO - Beach Scene

[Tom C]

I like the ethereal look of the rocks and the light. I find the foregound 
confuses my eye though and I think the person is small and soft which tends 
to detract.

Tom C.


>From: Bruce Dayton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: PESO - Beach Scene
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:19:46 -0700
>
>Taken at the beach at Pt. Reyes - The sun was near setting and caused
>the soft glow depicted.
>
>
>Pentax K10D, DA* 50-135/2.8 @ 123mm
>ISO 800, 1/3000 sec @ f/4.5, Handheld
>
>http://www.daytonphoto.com/PAW/ptreyes_0097.htm
>
>--
>Bruce
>
>
>
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RE: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Sorry if some of these come through twice.  Weather made my satellite 
connection spotty and they don't appear to have reached the archives 
either...


Comments below:

Tom C.


From: Pål Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
Subject: RE: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:05:53 +0200

Tom Wrote:

Are you sure those lenses are in production?  Designed maybe, but I would
think otherwise in the same status as the 645D.  They're not making lenses
for a camera that's not on the production line.

I'm not expecting it or holding my breath, but to me it makes *more sense*
to produce a FF 24 X 36 body than the 645D. Here's why:

1. Canon and Nikon both now have FF bodies on the market.  If Pentax can 
get

one out in short order they can be #3 to do so, ahead of Sony and Olympus.
That would be a big feather in Pentax's cap.

2. The sales of a 645D would be relatively small compared to the sales of a
FF 24 x 36 body because the market is smaller.  Pentax 35mm body/lens 
owners

out number Pentax 645 owners by a large factor.  Can't begin to guess what
it is, 100-to-1, 1000-to-1?

3. Moving to a 645 format is much costlier to non-645 system owners because
they must buy into a whole new system.  I'd personally be more likely to 
buy
a FF Canon or Nikon 24 x 36 body if I was going to change systems.  Last 
but

not least it would still fit in the same camera bag. :-)

4. Pentax can do the in body sensor crop when DA lenses are attached,
preserving the usefulness of the DA lens series for those that have
purchased them.

5. It can't be any harder for Pentax to design and manufacture a FF 24 x 36
body than the 645.  They have all the basics. Yes they would need to
reeingineer the image processing engine, have a larger LCD,  and other
firmware/hardware changes, but that's a given with any new camera model.
The only thing really holding them back would be whether they can obtain a
sensor at a price point that will put the resulting product within reach of
a large number of customers.



REPLY:

1. The fact that Nikon and Canon have FF camera on the market doesn't make
it easier for Pentax to sell one. As Nikon and Canon FF bodies consist
together at about 1% of the market the potential sales volume for a Pentax
FF is minuscule indeed. I'm sure that the FF market share will increase but
not significantly  in the next couple of years. As an FF Pentax will be
compared to Nikon and Canon FF camera it needs to be equal in other
departments as well; not just the sensor.



It's about brand image, not making it easier.  I agree other things need to 
be updated also.  If Pentax were to have only 3 DSLR's on the market, $500 
range entry level, $1000 dollar range mid level, $2000/2500 FF body, I 
suspect those buying the high end will be > 1%.  It would certainly be a 
higher number than those buying a 645D.




2. Nobody knows the size of the MF based digital camera market as noone is
really selling any. Mamiya is a microscopic player several times bankrupt
and until a major player in digital cameras actually market an MF digital
camera, the market simply won't happen. Also, the size of the market is
dependent on the price of the 645D; an unknown at this point. My guess is
that a 645D at twice the price of an FF Pentax K-mount Nikon killer will
sell twice as much as that FF camera.
As for lenses; there are much more pofessional grade Pentax MF lenses out
there than Pentax K-mount pro glass. Most of the Pentax K-mount lenses are
kit zooms and the 50/2 lens. None of them use by folks likely to buy a FF
Pentax DSLR. All MF lenses are basically pro lenses in this regard and
Pentax got a significant market share in the MF world; up to 50%.



If there's really no market at present it would be rather foolish for Pentax 
to sell to it, I think.




3. As Pentax MF cameras are among the most popular MF systems of all times
there are plenty of potential users for this camera. Besides, there are
those who will want a sensor twice the size of any Nikon and Canon thus
obtaining image quality not available from those brands; perhaps optimized
for resolution rather than speed or high ISO performance.



They are?  I was pretty sure it was Hassleblad.  If they're not making a 
67D, for all those legacy 67 lenses, you can subtract those customers out of 
your count.



5. It is much harder for Pentax to manufacture a K-mount FF camera than the
645D as the FF camera will need to compete with Nikon and Canon whereas the
645D will outperform Nikon and Canon in image quality and compete with
obscenely priced digital backs. In addition, the 645D is built around the
old 645 chassis, mirror, and finder system. Long since payed for. Its
electronics is derived from the K10D or coming K-mount bodies.
It also doesn't face the same demand for fast AF and image processing speed
as a Nikon/Canon FF competitor will as it will be targeted at high
resolu

Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Mafud? (whoops)...



Tom C.


>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:48:15 +
>
>colostomy bag?
>  -- Original message --
>From: "David Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > ,,,or douchebag.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > On 10/20/07, Jack Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > "Dirtbag" shouldn't be overlooked.
> > >
> > > Jack
> > > --- Kenneth Waller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ah, you've forgotten the venerable Barfbag !
> > > >
> > > > Kenneth Waller
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/272u2f
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Original Message -
> > > > From: "mike wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next
> > > > camera(s)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Cotty wrote:
> > > > >> On 19/10/07, Christian, discombobulated, unleashed:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>I thought Cotty was the only one able to bestow shitbag status on
> > > > a list
> > > > >>>member.  I'm feeling that my exclusive club is becoming over run
> > > > with
> > > > >>>pseudo-shitbags.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The pecking order is
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 1. Shitbag
> > > > >> 2. Fartbag
> > > > >> 3. Sleazebag.
> > > > >
> > > > > Honourable mention:
> > > > > Ratbag
> >
> > --
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RE: PESO - Beach Scene

[Tom C]

I like the ethereal look of the rocks and the light. I find the foregound 
confuses my eye though and I think the person is small and soft which tends 
to detract.

Tom C.


>From: Bruce Dayton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: PESO - Beach Scene
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:19:46 -0700
>
>Taken at the beach at Pt. Reyes - The sun was near setting and caused
>the soft glow depicted.
>
>
>Pentax K10D, DA* 50-135/2.8 @ 123mm
>ISO 800, 1/3000 sec @ f/4.5, Handheld
>
>http://www.daytonphoto.com/PAW/ptreyes_0097.htm
>
>--
>Bruce
>
>
>
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I Guess Discrimination Cuts Both Ways...

[Tom C]

B&H

http://tinyurl.com/2j7rz8

Tom C.



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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Is there any camera on the market that has a 1.2/1.3 crop at the moment?  It 
would not make sense to me to shoot for somewhere between APS-C and FF. You 
wouldn't *need* new lenses of course...


Tom C.

>From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:58:38 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
>
>"It's been reported here that the DA lenses generally cover very nearly the 
>image circle required by 35mm film, so
>perhaps they would be perfect for something like 1.3x. Or, I believe 
>someone talked about 1.2x, too;"
>
>-
>
>Some do, some don't.
>
>Speaking only for my own preferences and cognitive limitations...I find it 
>is enough to have to remember two angles-of-view for each of my older 
>lenses. I draw the line at two. Having to remember three exceeds what I 
>would be willing to do.
>
>A sensor with a new crop would require a new batch of wide angle lenses, 
>and wide-to-tele zooms. Having got just about what I need for APS-C (except 
>I want a DA* 400), I would be unhappy to have to start buying another new 
>set of lenses.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
>
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Test

[Tom C]

123



Tom C.



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Re: Completely and totally OT: Politics

[Tom C]

You can keep Elvis Stoiko. :-)

Tom C.

>From: "William Robb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
>Subject: Re: Completely and totally OT: Politics
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:07:58 -0600
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Charles Robinson"
>Subject: Re: Completely and totally OT: Politics
>
>
>
> > "The Canadians. They walk among us. William Shatner. Michael J. Fox.
> > Monty Hall. Mike Meyers. Alex Trebek. All of them Canadians. All of
> > them here."
> >
> >
>
>You missed Celine Dion.
>BTW, you can keep her and Trebek.
>
>William Robb
>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Adam Maas]

The Canon 1D series are 1.3x crop, as is the Leica M8 and the 
(discontinued) Leica DMR for the R8/R9.

-Adam


Tom C wrote:
> Is there any camera on the market that has a 1.2/1.3 crop at the moment?  It 
> would not make sense to me to shoot for somewhere between APS-C and FF. You 
> wouldn't *need* new lenses of course...
> 
> 
> Tom C.
> 
>> From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:58:38 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
>>
>> "It's been reported here that the DA lenses generally cover very nearly the 
>> image circle required by 35mm film, so
>> perhaps they would be perfect for something like 1.3x. Or, I believe 
>> someone talked about 1.2x, too;"
>>
>> -
>>
>> Some do, some don't.
>>
>> Speaking only for my own preferences and cognitive limitations...I find it 
>> is enough to have to remember two angles-of-view for each of my older 
>> lenses. I draw the line at two. Having to remember three exceeds what I 
>> would be willing to do.
>>
>> A sensor with a new crop would require a new batch of wide angle lenses, 
>> and wide-to-tele zooms. Having got just about what I need for APS-C (except 
>> I want a DA* 400), I would be unhappy to have to start buying another new 
>> set of lenses.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>
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> 
> 


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I Guess Discrimination Cuts Both Ways...

[Tom C]

B&H

http://tinyurl.com/2j7rz8

Tom C.



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OT - Britain Surrenders :-)

[Tom C]

>From the Writer's Almanac 10/19/2007

It's the anniversary of the surrender that effectively ended the American 
Revolutionary War, in Yorktown, Virginia, in 1781. That summer, the British 
had expected Washington to attack New York City. But when he learned that he 
might be able to capture the British forces on the Yorktown Peninsula in 
Virginia, he executed one of the boldest moves of the entire war, moving his 
army 400 miles in order to catch his enemy by surprise. He had to march his 
troops toward New York City first, to scare the British into hunkering down 
for an attack. Then he quickly moved south. The British commander only 
realized what Washington was doing two days after he'd already gone.

Washington's men and their French allies marched every day from 2:00 a.m. 
until it grew too hot to continue. It was a hot summer, and on one day, more 
than 400 men passed out from the heat. Few armies in history had ever moved 
so far so fast. By the second week of October, they had reached Yorktown and 
surrounded Cornwallis. He agreed to a surrender that began at 2:00 a.m. on 
this day in 1781. The one soldier who didn't surrender was Cornwallis 
himself. He sent his sword with his second-in-command to be offered to the 
French general, signifying that the British had been defeated by the French, 
not the Americans. Washington was furious, but it didn't matter. England 
didn't have enough money to raise another army. Two years later, the Treaty 
of Paris was signed, and the war was officially over.





Tom C.



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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

From: "David Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 03:32:52 +0800

On 10/20/07, Pål Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 2. Nobody knows the size of the MF based digital camera market as no one 
is

> really selling any.

So what makes you think Pentax can do any better than Hassleblad,
Maymia, Leaf etc?

If no one is really selling any now, and the size of the potential
market is unknown, isn't it a risky move to develop a product that may
not sell in any great numbers?

Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
than the current products on the market?

Cheers,

Dave



Have to say it:


Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
than the current products on the market?


Look at the K10D. :-) While I appreciate the low price, it's got to be hard 
to make money on a body that depreciates by 50% in one year.  It makes me 
wonder if they are still in the production line.  Some of the stores selling 
at $999 would probably have to lose money selling at $699.  I saw an *ist D 
online yesterday for $1299!


In fact at $699 - $100 rebate, I'd expect the K10D to outsell the K100's.

Tom C.



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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

From: "David Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 03:32:52 +0800

On 10/20/07, Pål Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 2. Nobody knows the size of the MF based digital camera market as no one 
is

> really selling any.

So what makes you think Pentax can do any better than Hassleblad,
Maymia, Leaf etc?

If no one is really selling any now, and the size of the potential
market is unknown, isn't it a risky move to develop a product that may
not sell in any great numbers?

Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
than the current products on the market?

Cheers,

Dave



Have to say it:


Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
than the current products on the market?


Look at the K10D. :-) While I appreciate the low price, it's got to be hard 
to make money on a body that depreciates by 50% in one year.  It makes me 
wonder if they are still in the production line.  Some of the stores selling 
at $999 would probably have to lose money selling at $699.  I saw an *ist D 
online yesterday for $1299!


In fact at $699 - $100 rebate, I'd expect the K10D to outsell the K100's.

Tom C.



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Re: PESO - Beach Scene

[Tom C]

>From: ann sanfedele <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: PESO - Beach Scene
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 16:27:28 -0400
>
>Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
>
> >From: "Bruce Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >
> >>Pentax K10D, DA* 50-135/2.8 @ 123mm
> >>ISO 800, 1/3000 sec @ f/4.5, Handheld
> >>
> >>http://www.daytonphoto.com/PAW/ptreyes_0097.htm
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I like the light and overall feel. However it feels tilted to my eye
> >due to the way the foreground and background interact, which is
> >distracting.
> >
> >Godfrey
> >
> >
> >
>hey, Godders -- I see what you mean - but I thought the overall photo
>was so strong I didn't notice it at first -
>Bruce, would too much be lost if you ever so slgihtly corrected it by
>  sa 1 or 2 degrees so the top of
>the near water was really horizontal?
>
>ann

Funny.  I feel the overall photo is not strong, my opinion of course.  Sorry 
on this one Bruce. I think the  image is too soft in the foreground due the 
focus being on the rocks and a short DOF.  I can see a very a nice scenic if 
the bottom water area was not there, the person was not there and the 
foreground was in focus.



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Re: PESO - Beach Scene

[Tom C]

>From: ann sanfedele <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: PESO - Beach Scene
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 16:27:28 -0400
>
>Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
>
> >From: "Bruce Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >
> >>Pentax K10D, DA* 50-135/2.8 @ 123mm
> >>ISO 800, 1/3000 sec @ f/4.5, Handheld
> >>
> >>http://www.daytonphoto.com/PAW/ptreyes_0097.htm
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I like the light and overall feel. However it feels tilted to my eye
> >due to the way the foreground and background interact, which is
> >distracting.
> >
> >Godfrey
> >
> >
> >
>hey, Godders -- I see what you mean - but I thought the overall photo
>was so strong I didn't notice it at first -
>Bruce, would too much be lost if you ever so slgihtly corrected it by
>  sa 1 or 2 degrees so the top of
>the near water was really horizontal?
>
>ann

Funny.  I feel this overall photo is not strong, my opinion of course. The 
rocks and ocean are great.  I think the foreground is too soft due to the 
focus being on the rocks and a short DOF.  I can see a very a nice scenic if 
the bottom water area was not there, the person was not there and the 
foreground was in focus.



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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Given the reports on Hoya's management priorities, I can't see them allowing 
Pentax to embark down a road on a niche-market, low-volume product.


The simple fact is that 645 format MF cameras are off the radar of the vast 
majority of the camera buying public.


It would be a stupid business move.  The only people it would make happy is 
those interested in a 645D from Pentax, which is very few people. While 
Canon and Nikon do not likely view Pentax as a threat, it might make them 
happy too.  I'm sure their would be quite a few chuckles among their 
engineers and in the boardrooms, to see them wasting resources and effort.


Like I've said before, Pentax has received a little recognition with the 
K10D.  They need to capitalize on that with another "hit" product, not a 
niche speciality product which will have little reach in the market.


Common sense I think.

Tom C.


From: "P. J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 14:38:17 -0400

645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web site. If the
645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product introduction.
Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor do I
think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real demand
for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand for K mount
lenses.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> In fact, more likely than a full frame camera and a line of lenses is 
the 645D. Lenses for that camera are already in production. If Pentax wants 
to go pro, that seems to be the only logical way to do it.

> Paul
>  -- Original message --
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>> It wouldn't be logical from a marketing point of view to introduce a 
camera that
>> can't use the lenses that you've just introduced. The DA* 60-250 hasn't 
even
>> seen the light of day yet. Plus, most of the full frame lenses seem to 
have been
>> discontinued. I suspect that the only ones being sold now are existing 
stock. Of
>> course we might one day see a full frame camera along with a new line 
of lenses,

>> but I doubt that Pentax is ready for that now.
>> Paul
>>  -- Original message --
>> From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>
>>> >From what Adam has told us about the newest sensors, 12
>>>
 megapixels with good noise characteristics might well be possible
 at 1.5.

>>> Could be. But every so often I look at what Nikon's getting from 12
>>> megapixels at full-frame...
>>>
>>>
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>>
>
>
>


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Sandy Harris]

On 10/20/07, Tom C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Is there any camera on the market that has a 1.2/1.3 crop at the moment?  It
> does not make sense to me to shoot for somewhere between APS-C and FF. You
> wouldn't *need* new lenses of course...

Leica M8 is 1.33 or so.

-- 
Sandy Harris,
Nanjing, China

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Re: Completely and totally OT: Politics

[Tom C]

You can keep Elvis Stoiko. :-)

Tom C.

>From: "William Robb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
>Subject: Re: Completely and totally OT: Politics
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:07:58 -0600
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Charles Robinson"
>Subject: Re: Completely and totally OT: Politics
>
>
>
> > "The Canadians. They walk among us. William Shatner. Michael J. Fox.
> > Monty Hall. Mike Meyers. Alex Trebek. All of them Canadians. All of
> > them here."
> >
> >
>
>You missed Celine Dion.
>BTW, you can keep her and Trebek.
>
>William Robb
>
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Re: Interesting times with Pentax

[Tom C]

>
>Roman Melihhov wrote:
> > I remember how it all started with K10D. Lotta rumors, unrealistic
> > expectations, even though it can shake itself shame it still doest do
> > the laundry. At the end it was good tool that does its job well and
> > helps achieving excellence in photography. Now another round, 12Mp? FF?
> > 1.3x 1.25x crop, CMOS? CCD? It is always a photographer who makes good
> > photographs, not the camera, but I'm sure Pentax R&D guys are listening.
> > Good captures to all of you this weekend.
> >
> > Roman.

The camera can be a limiting factor though.

Tom C.



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RE: Shooting the Orionids

[Tom C]

Tripod
ISO 800
A 20 - 31 mm lens most likely is the best choice.  Over 50mm means you'll be 
cutting out too much sky and you don't know exactly where the meteor may fly 
through the frame.  Too wide and the image of the meteor is likely to be to 
small to make a good impression.
Aperture, bigger the better.  Anything over 2.8 is definitely to small.
Shutter speed 20 - 30 seconds otherwise you'll get very evident motion blur 
of the stars due to earths rotation.
Noise reduction off.  There's just as good of a chance a meteor will fly by 
while a dark frame is being taken as there is otherwise.  Might as well 
maximize the chances of capturing it.

Once you're in the peak of the shower, you might as well fire 20 to 30 
second exposures off back to back, since it's pure chance that you'll 
capture one.

If you're in a place where you can have some horizon in the shot it will 
make for a better image.  A flash of light going through a star field only 
can make for some unexciting images.



Tom C.


>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: PDML@pdml.net
>Subject: Shooting the Orionids
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:03:56 -0700
>
>This weekend the Orionid meteor shower will be going on.  Sunday is also my
>birthday, so since I'm going to be staying up late anyway, I figure I might 
>as
>well go out and shoot some shooting stars.
>
>What are good settings for shooting such things?  Shutter speed, aperture, 
>ISO,
>noise reduction on/off, etc.  I've never tried to shoot a meteor shower 
>before,
>so any suggestions would be much appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>John Celio
>(28 for just a little longer)
>
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RE: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Comments below:

Tom C.


From: Pål Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
Subject: RE: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:05:53 +0200

Tom Wrote:

Are you sure those lenses are in production?  Designed maybe, but I would
think otherwise in the same status as the 645D.  They're not making lenses
for a camera that's not on the production line.

I'm not expecting it or holding my breath, but to me it makes *more sense*
to produce a FF 24 X 36 body than the 645D. Here's why:

1. Canon and Nikon both now have FF bodies on the market.  If Pentax can 
get

one out in short order they can be #3 to do so, ahead of Sony and Olympus.
That would be a big feather in Pentax's cap.

2. The sales of a 645D would be relatively small compared to the sales of a
FF 24 x 36 body because the market is smaller.  Pentax 35mm body/lens 
owners

out number Pentax 645 owners by a large factor.  Can't begin to guess what
it is, 100-to-1, 1000-to-1?

3. Moving to a 645 format is much costlier to non-645 system owners because
they must buy into a whole new system.  I'd personally be more likely to 
buy
a FF Canon or Nikon 24 x 36 body if I was going to change systems.  Last 
but

not least it would still fit in the same camera bag. :-)

4. Pentax can do the in body sensor crop when DA lenses are attached,
preserving the usefulness of the DA lens series for those that have
purchased them.

5. It can't be any harder for Pentax to design and manufacture a FF 24 x 36
body than the 645.  They have all the basics. Yes they would need to
reeingineer the image processing engine, have a larger LCD,  and other
firmware/hardware changes, but that's a given with any new camera model.
The only thing really holding them back would be whether they can obtain a
sensor at a price point that will put the resulting product within reach of
a large number of customers.



REPLY:

1. The fact that Nikon and Canon have FF camera on the market doesn't make
it easier for Pentax to sell one. As Nikon and Canon FF bodies consist
together at about 1% of the market the potential sales volume for a Pentax
FF is minuscule indeed. I'm sure that the FF market share will increase but
not significantly  in the next couple of years. As an FF Pentax will be
compared to Nikon and Canon FF camera it needs to be equal in other
departments as well; not just the sensor.



It's about brand image, not making it easier.  I agree other things need to 
be updated also.  If Pentax were to have only 3 DSLR's on the market, $500 
range entry level, $1000 dollar range mid level, $2000/2500 FF body, I 
suspect those buying the high end will be > 1%.  It would certainly be a 
higher number than those buying a 645D.




2. Nobody knows the size of the MF based digital camera market as noone is
really selling any. Mamiya is a microscopic player several times bankrupt
and until a major player in digital cameras actually market an MF digital
camera, the market simply won't happen. Also, the size of the market is
dependent on the price of the 645D; an unknown at this point. My guess is
that a 645D at twice the price of an FF Pentax K-mount Nikon killer will
sell twice as much as that FF camera.
As for lenses; there are much more pofessional grade Pentax MF lenses out
there than Pentax K-mount pro glass. Most of the Pentax K-mount lenses are
kit zooms and the 50/2 lens. None of them use by folks likely to buy a FF
Pentax DSLR. All MF lenses are basically pro lenses in this regard and
Pentax got a significant market share in the MF world; up to 50%.



If there's really no market at present it would be rather foolish for Pentax 
to sell to it, I think.




3. As Pentax MF cameras are among the most popular MF systems of all times
there are plenty of potential users for this camera. Besides, there are
those who will want a sensor twice the size of any Nikon and Canon thus
obtaining image quality not available from those brands; perhaps optimized
for resolution rather than speed or high ISO performance.



They are?  I was pretty sure it was Hassleblad.  If they're not making a 
67D, for all those legacy 67 lenses, you can subtract those customers out of 
your count.



5. It is much harder for Pentax to manufacture a K-mount FF camera than the
645D as the FF camera will need to compete with Nikon and Canon whereas the
645D will outperform Nikon and Canon in image quality and compete with
obscenely priced digital backs. In addition, the 645D is built around the
old 645 chassis, mirror, and finder system. Long since payed for. Its
electronics is derived from the K10D or coming K-mount bodies.
It also doesn't face the same demand for fast AF and image processing speed
as a Nikon/Canon FF competitor will as it will be targeted at high
resolution uses; typically landscape and studio use.




I doubt Pentax can produce a high MP MF camera for much less than it's 
competitors.  The 645D would 

Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades and did have a 
respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to today?


Tom C.

>From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
>
>"645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web site. If the
>645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product introduction.
>Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor do I
>think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real demand
>for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand for K mount
>lenses."
>
>All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in stock. 
>Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide-angle 645 
>lenses, and they already have a new normal lens on the lens map.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Is there any camera on the market that has a 1.2/1.3 crop at the moment?  It 
does not make sense to me to shoot for somewhere between APS-C and FF. You 
wouldn't *need* new lenses of course...


Tom C.

>From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:58:38 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
>
>"It's been reported here that the DA lenses generally cover very nearly the 
>image circle required by 35mm film, so
>perhaps they would be perfect for something like 1.3x. Or, I believe 
>someone talked about 1.2x, too;"
>
>-
>
>Some do, some don't.
>
>Speaking only for my own preferences and cognitive limitations...I find it 
>is enough to have to remember two angles-of-view for each of my older 
>lenses. I draw the line at two. Having to remember three exceeds what I 
>would be willing to do.
>
>A sensor with a new crop would require a new batch of wide angle lenses, 
>and wide-to-tele zooms. Having got just about what I need for APS-C (except 
>I want a DA* 400), I would be unhappy to have to start buying another new 
>set of lenses.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
>
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[pnstenquist]

Tom,
You know Hoya management? Can you introduce them to the rest of us?
Paul
 -- Original message --
From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> May be, but relative comparisons like that don't necessarially fly
> with those holding the purse strings.
> 
> I just can't see Hoya management, more pragmatic than the former
> Pentax mgmt., going down a risky road with a 645D.
> 
> Tom C.
> 
> On 10/19/07, Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > So did Mamiya. Pentax is a lot more healthy.
> >
> > -Adam
> >
> > Tom C wrote:
> > > Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades and did
> > > have a respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to today?
> > >
> > >
> > > Tom C.
> > >
> > >> From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> > >> To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
> > >> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
> > >> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
> > >>
> > >> "645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web site. If the
> > >> 645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product introduction.
> > >> Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor do I
> > >> think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real demand
> > >> for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand for K mount
> > >> lenses."
> > >>
> > >> All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in stock.
> > > Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide-angle 645
> > > lenses, and they already have a new normal lens on the lens map.
> > >> Joe
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> > >> PDML@pdml.net
> > >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Pål Jensen]

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



> Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades and did
> have a respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to today?


I think it is wrong to think medium format. Medium format used a certain 
film type that effectively put limits on its market penetration. A 645D is 
just another digital camera but with outstanding image quality. Price is the 
limiting factor and is at present an unknown.

Pål 



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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

May be, but relative comparisons like that don't necessarially fly
with those holding the purse strings.

I just can't see Hoya management, more pragmatic than the former
Pentax mgmt., going down a risky road with a 645D.

Tom C.

On 10/19/07, Adam Maas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So did Mamiya. Pentax is a lot more healthy.
>
> -Adam
>
> Tom C wrote:
> > Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades and did
> > have a respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to today?
> >
> >
> > Tom C.
> >
> >> From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >> To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
> >> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
> >> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
> >>
> >> "645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web site. If the
> >> 645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product introduction.
> >> Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor do I
> >> think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real demand
> >> for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand for K mount
> >> lenses."
> >>
> >> All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in stock.
> > Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide-angle 645
> > lenses, and they already have a new normal lens on the lens map.
> >> Joe
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
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> >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above
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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Bob Blakely]

They're not really cameras anymore. They're optical computers. We think of 
the LX as a camera circa 1980. We should think of the latest crop of digital 
cameras as circa 10:30 AM.

Regards,
Bob...

"Art is not a reflection of reality. it is the reality of a reflection."
  -Jean Luc Godard

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


>From: "David Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>On 10/20/07, Pål Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 2. Nobody knows the size of the MF based digital camera market as no one 
> > is
> > really selling any.
>
>So what makes you think Pentax can do any better than Hassleblad,
>Maymia, Leaf etc?
>
>If no one is really selling any now, and the size of the potential
>market is unknown, isn't it a risky move to develop a product that may
>not sell in any great numbers?
>
>Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
>than the current products on the market?

Have to say it:

>Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
>than the current products on the market?

Look at the K10D. :-) While I appreciate the low price, it's got to be
hard to make money on a body that depreciates by 50% in one year.  It
makes me wonder if they are still in the production line.  Some of the
stores selling at $999 would probably have to lose money selling at
$699.  I saw an *ist D online yesterday for $1299!

In fact at $699 - $100 rebate, I'd expect the K10D to outsell the K100's.


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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Pål Jensen]

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Look at the K10D. :-) While I appreciate the low price, it's got to be
hard to make money on a body that depreciates by 50% in one year.  It
makes me wonder if they are still in the production line.  Some of the
stores selling at $999 would probably have to lose money selling at
$699.  I saw an *ist D online yesterday for $1299!


REPLY:

This is in the US and reflect Pentax US policy. It is expensive in the rest 
of the world. I'm sure Pentax is making money on it as their imaging 
division is going in plus due to DSLR sales... 



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Re: Ned Bunnell and "Pentax Pro Services" announcement

[Adam Maas]

Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
> On Oct 19, 2007, at 3:51 PM, Adam Maas wrote:
> 
>> Mark Erickson wrote:
>>> All,
>>>
>>> This may have already been discussed, but I think it's pretty  
>>> significant.
>>> Ned Bunnell, an occasional poster to the Pentax forum over at  
>>> DPReview, was
>>> recently promoted to President of Pentax Imaging in the USA.   
>>> There's a nice
>>> "congratulations" thread over at DPReview.
>>>
>>> In a response in the thread, Ned himself wrote the following  
>>> regarding
>>> Pentax USA's presence at PhotoPlus in New York:
>>>
>>> "And we'll be announcing our new  Pentax Pro Services program."
>>>
>>> M.  "Pro Services".  If it's real, it's a significant step for  
>>> Pentax in
>>> the USA.  Sure doesn't sound like Hoya wants to pull the plug on  
>>> their
>>> camera business, does it?
>>>
>>> What does it mean regarding upcoming DSLRs?  More high end  
>>> products, I
>>> hope
>>>
>>>  --Mark
>>>
>> That's seriously good news. Ned gets the market, which bodes very well
>> for Pentax's biggest market, and Pro support is a place where  
>> everybody
>> except Canon falls down (NPS is a joke, Oly is also finally  
>> introducing
>> a Pro support system concurrent with the E-3 Launch)
> 
> Oly's had a Pro Support Services for some time, Adam. It's just darn  
> hard to qualify for it ... You have to prove that something like 80%  
> or more of your income comes from the use of Olympus brand camera  
> equipment. I have three friends who are members and they tell me that  
> the service level it provides is outstanding, but it took each of  
> them over a year to qualify.
> 
> Godfrey
> 
> 

Interesting, then I wonder what their new 'Elite' club is, maybe a lower 
level of that.

-Adam

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RE: Shooting the Orionids

[Tom C]

Tripod
ISO 800 or 400 if light polluted
A 20 - 31 mm lens most likely is the best choice.  Over 50mm means
you'll be cutting out too much sky and you don't know exactly where
the meteor may fly through the frame.  Too wide and the image of the
meteor is likely to be to small to make a good impression.
Aperture, bigger the better.  Anything over 2.8 is definitely to small.
Shutter speed 20 - 30 seconds otherwise you'll get very evident motion
blur of the stars due to earths rotation.
Noise reduction off.  There's just as good of a chance a meteor will
fly by while a dark frame is being taken as there is otherwise.  Might
as well maximize the chances of capturing it.

Once you're in the peak of the shower, you might as well fire 20 to 30
second exposures off back to back, since it's pure chance that you'll
capture one.

If you're in a place where you can have some horizon in the shot it
will make for a better image.  A flash of light going through a star
field only can make for some unexciting images.



Tom C.


>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: PDML@pdml.net
>Subject: Shooting the Orionids
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:03:56 -0700
>
>This weekend the Orionid meteor shower will be going on.  Sunday is also my
>birthday, so since I'm going to be staying up late anyway, I figure I might as
>well go out and shoot some shooting stars.
>
>What are good settings for shooting such things?  Shutter speed, aperture, ISO,
>noise reduction on/off, etc.  I've never tried to shoot a meteor shower before,
>so any suggestions would be much appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>John Celio
>(28 for just a little longer)
>
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OT - Britain Surrenders :-)

[Tom C]

>From the Writer's Almanac 10/19/2007

It's the anniversary of the surrender that effectively ended the
American Revolutionary War, in Yorktown, Virginia, in 1781. That
summer, the British had expected Washington to attack New York City.
But when he learned that he might be able to capture the British
forces on the Yorktown Peninsula in Virginia, he executed one of the
boldest moves of the entire war, moving his army 400 miles in order to
catch his enemy by surprise. He had to march his troops toward New
York City first, to scare the British into hunkering down for an
attack. Then he quickly moved south. The British commander only
realized what Washington was doing two days after he'd already gone.

Washington's men and their French allies marched every day from 2:00
a.m. until it grew too hot to continue. It was a hot summer, and on
one day, more than 400 men passed out from the heat. Few armies in
history had ever moved so far so fast. By the second week of October,
they had reached Yorktown and surrounded Cornwallis. He agreed to a
surrender that began at 2:00 a.m. on this day in 1781. The one soldier
who didn't surrender was Cornwallis himself. He sent his sword with
his second-in-command to be offered to the French general, signifying
that the British had been defeated by the French, not the Americans.
Washington was furious, but it didn't matter. England didn't have
enough money to raise another army. Two years later, the Treaty of
Paris was signed, and the war was officially over.


Tom C.

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Adam Maas]

So did Mamiya. Pentax is a lot more healthy.

-Adam

Tom C wrote:
> Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades and did
> have a respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to today?
> 
> 
> Tom C.
> 
>> From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
>> Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
>>
>> "645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web site. If the
>> 645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product introduction.
>> Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor do I
>> think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real demand
>> for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand for K mount
>> lenses."
>>
>> All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in stock.
> Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide-angle 645
> lenses, and they already have a new normal lens on the lens map.
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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> and follow the directions.
> 


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I Guess Discrimination Works Both Ways

[Tom C]

B&H

http://tinyurl.com/2j7rz8

Tom C.

That's a lot of camera sales!

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

>From: "David Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 03:32:52 +0800
>
>On 10/20/07, Pål Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 2. Nobody knows the size of the MF based digital camera market as no one is
> > really selling any.
>
>So what makes you think Pentax can do any better than Hassleblad,
>Maymia, Leaf etc?
>
>If no one is really selling any now, and the size of the potential
>market is unknown, isn't it a risky move to develop a product that may
>not sell in any great numbers?
>
>Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
>than the current products on the market?
>
>Cheers,
>
>Dave
>

Have to say it:

>Also, why is everyone assuming that the 645D will be so much cheaper
>than the current products on the market?

Look at the K10D. :-) While I appreciate the low price, it's got to be
hard to make money on a body that depreciates by 50% in one year.  It
makes me wonder if they are still in the production line.  Some of the
stores selling at $999 would probably have to lose money selling at
$699.  I saw an *ist D online yesterday for $1299!

In fact at $699 - $100 rebate, I'd expect the K10D to outsell the K100's.

Tom C.

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Re: Starfighters & Co.

[Doug Franklin]

mike wilson wrote:

> BTW, wind your sound up and listen to the Merlin at full blast here.  Don't 
> play the Corsair one at the top, it will make you feel ill.
> http://www.aviationshoppe.com/Sounds1.html

There used to be a tractor pull "car" here in the US that had either 
five or seven Merlins fitted.  He claimed close to 10,000 HP, IIRC. 
They were /not/ stock-fitment Merlins. :-)

I love the sound of the Wright radials, like the one in the Corsair.  At 
an air show when I was a kid, a "flight" of three Corsairs buzzed the 
crowd at "mess up our hair" altitude and it was just stupendous, and 
nearly stupefying.

-- 
Thanks,
DougF (KG4LMZ)

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Mafud? (whoops)...



Tom C.


>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:48:15 +
>
>colostomy bag?
>  -- Original message --
>From: "David Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > ,,,or douchebag.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > On 10/20/07, Jack Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > "Dirtbag" shouldn't be overlooked.
> > >
> > > Jack
> > > --- Kenneth Waller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ah, you've forgotten the venerable Barfbag !
> > > >
> > > > Kenneth Waller
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/272u2f
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > - Original Message -
> > > > From: "mike wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next
> > > > camera(s)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Cotty wrote:
> > > > >> On 19/10/07, Christian, discombobulated, unleashed:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>I thought Cotty was the only one able to bestow shitbag status on
> > > > a list
> > > > >>>member.  I'm feeling that my exclusive club is becoming over run
> > > > with
> > > > >>>pseudo-shitbags.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The pecking order is
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 1. Shitbag
> > > > >> 2. Fartbag
> > > > >> 3. Sleazebag.
> > > > >
> > > > > Honourable mention:
> > > > > Ratbag
> >
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Re: Interesting times with Pentax

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

On Oct 19, 2007, at 3:09 PM, Toralf Lund wrote:

>> Possibly with 14bit RAW's
>
> Do you think that would be possible?
>
> I know you (or was it someone else?) have been saying the light
> collecting capability of sensors has been improved lately, but in  
> order
> to achieve a higher bit count, a better electric charge storage  
> capacity
> would probably be needed as well. Or at least, some papers I read on
> this a year or so ago seemed to suggest that 14 bits won't be possible
> with the current element sizes even with 0 noise.

My take on this:

12 bit vs 14 bit RAW files has more to do with quantization than with  
charge capacity, which translates to DR. They could quantize the data  
captured by the current sensor to an 8, 11, 12, or 14 bit  
representation. The question is whether or not it is useful to do so.  
12 bits is 4096 discrete energy levels; 14 bits is 16,384. Is there  
adequate resolution of energy levels in the sensor to make expressing  
that energy in a larger quantization meaningful? The assumption is  
that, given the present sensor, 12 bits is an accurate representation  
and there is no added value in going to a larger representation.

The implication is that a new sensor might have sufficient resolution  
of energy levels to make a 14 bit quantization an advantage. Improved  
accuracy is the result, exercising more of that 22bit A->D converter.  
Maybe increased DR as well, if the imager actually does have  
additional DR.

Godfrey
"I'm no electrical engineer, I play one on the PDML."

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Pentax basically ignored the 35mm market for several decades and did
have a respectable MF presence.  Where has that gotten them to today?


Tom C.

>From: jtainter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: "pdml@pdml.net" 
>Subject: Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:18:18 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
>
>"645 bodies and lenses are gone from the Pentaximaging web site. If the
>645d does return it will be a large scale "New" Product introduction.
>Something I don't think Pentax has the chutzpah to carry off. Nor do I
>think they have the production capacity to meet any kind of real demand
>for new 645 lenses. Hell they can't even keep up with demand for K mount
>lenses."
>
>All true, but B&H still list a number of 645 lenses, most in stock.
Pentax's immediate challenge would be some normal and wide-angle 645
lenses, and they already have a new normal lens on the lens map.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
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RE: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Tom C]

Comments below:

Tom C.

>From: Pål Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
>Subject: RE: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)
>Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:05:53 +0200
>
>Tom Wrote:
>
>Are you sure those lenses are in production?  Designed maybe, but I would
>think otherwise in the same status as the 645D.  They're not making lenses
>for a camera that's not on the production line.
>
>I'm not expecting it or holding my breath, but to me it makes *more sense*
>to produce a FF 24 X 36 body than the 645D. Here's why:
>
>1. Canon and Nikon both now have FF bodies on the market.  If Pentax can get
>one out in short order they can be #3 to do so, ahead of Sony and Olympus.
>That would be a big feather in Pentax's cap.
>
>2. The sales of a 645D would be relatively small compared to the sales of a
>FF 24 x 36 body because the market is smaller.  Pentax 35mm body/lens owners
>out number Pentax 645 owners by a large factor.  Can't begin to guess what
>it is, 100-to-1, 1000-to-1?
>
>3. Moving to a 645 format is much costlier to non-645 system owners because
>they must buy into a whole new system.  I'd personally be more likely to buy
>a FF Canon or Nikon 24 x 36 body if I was going to change systems.  Last but
>not least it would still fit in the same camera bag. :-)
>
>4. Pentax can do the in body sensor crop when DA lenses are attached,
>preserving the usefulness of the DA lens series for those that have
>purchased them.
>
>5. It can't be any harder for Pentax to design and manufacture a FF 24 x 36
>body than the 645.  They have all the basics. Yes they would need to
>reeingineer the image processing engine, have a larger LCD,  and other
>firmware/hardware changes, but that's a given with any new camera model.
>The only thing really holding them back would be whether they can obtain a
>sensor at a price point that will put the resulting product within reach of
>a large number of customers.
>
>
>
>REPLY:
>
>1. The fact that Nikon and Canon have FF camera on the market doesn't make
>it easier for Pentax to sell one. As Nikon and Canon FF bodies consist
>together at about 1% of the market the potential sales volume for a Pentax
>FF is minuscule indeed. I'm sure that the FF market share will increase but
>not significantly  in the next couple of years. As an FF Pentax will be
>compared to Nikon and Canon FF camera it needs to be equal in other
>departments as well; not just the sensor.
>

It's about brand image, not making it easier.  I agree other things
need to be updated also.  If Pentax were to have only 3 DSLR's on the
market, $500 range entry level, $1000 dollar range mid level,
$2000/2500 FF body, I suspect those buying the high end will be > 1%.
It would certainly be a higher number than those buying a 645D.


>2. Nobody knows the size of the MF based digital camera market as noone is
>really selling any. Mamiya is a microscopic player several times bankrupt
>and until a major player in digital cameras actually market an MF digital
>camera, the market simply won't happen. Also, the size of the market is
>dependent on the price of the 645D; an unknown at this point. My guess is
>that a 645D at twice the price of an FF Pentax K-mount Nikon killer will
>sell twice as much as that FF camera.
>As for lenses; there are much more pofessional grade Pentax MF lenses out
>there than Pentax K-mount pro glass. Most of the Pentax K-mount lenses are
>kit zooms and the 50/2 lens. None of them use by folks likely to buy a FF
>Pentax DSLR. All MF lenses are basically pro lenses in this regard and
>Pentax got a significant market share in the MF world; up to 50%.
>

If there's really no market at present it would be rather foolish for
Pentax to sell to it, I think.


>3. As Pentax MF cameras are among the most popular MF systems of all times
>there are plenty of potential users for this camera. Besides, there are
>those who will want a sensor twice the size of any Nikon and Canon thus
>obtaining image quality not available from those brands; perhaps optimized
>for resolution rather than speed or high ISO performance.
>

They are?  I was pretty sure it was Hassleblad.  If they're not making
a 67D, for all those legacy 67 lenses, you can subtract those
customers out of your count.

>5. It is much harder for Pentax to manufacture a K-mount FF camera than the
>645D as the FF camera will need to compete with Nikon and Canon whereas the
>645D will outperform Nikon and Canon in image quality and compete with
>obscenely priced digital backs. In addition, the 645D is built around the
>old 645 chassis, mirror, and finder system. Long since payed for. Its
>electronics is derived from the K10D or coming K-mount bodies.
>It also doesn't face the same demand for fast AF and image processing speed
>as a Nikon/Canon FF competitor will as it will be targeted at high
>resolution uses; typically landscape and studio use.
>
>

I doubt Pentax can produce a high MP MF camer

Re: Ned Bunnell and "Pentax Pro Services" announcement

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

I have been waiting for more information on this. I expect Ned is  
pretty busy these past couple of weeks, and of course he's been in NY  
for the past week with the PhotoPlus Expo.

Personally, I don't really need more high end products ... my  
photography doesn't require a whole lot of more zoomy equipment ...  
but having professional services available for rapid turnaround on  
repairs, loaners, etc when an assignment comes up that I need to  
cover would be very useful.

Godfrey


On Oct 19, 2007, at 3:00 PM, Mark Erickson wrote:

> All,
>
> This may have already been discussed, but I think it's pretty  
> significant.
> Ned Bunnell, an occasional poster to the Pentax forum over at  
> DPReview, was
> recently promoted to President of Pentax Imaging in the USA.   
> There's a nice
> "congratulations" thread over at DPReview.
>
> In a response in the thread, Ned himself wrote the following regarding
> Pentax USA's presence at PhotoPlus in New York:
>
> "And we'll be announcing our new  Pentax Pro Services program."
>
> M.  "Pro Services".  If it's real, it's a significant step for  
> Pentax in
> the USA.  Sure doesn't sound like Hoya wants to pull the plug on their
> camera business, does it?
>
> What does it mean regarding upcoming DSLRs?  More high end products, I
> hope


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Bunches of posts not making it with Hotmail

[Tom C]

Likely sometime in the next two years, you'll get duplicate posts when
hotmail gets around to actually sending.  Sorry for the duplicates
that may arrive.

Tom C.

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Re: It is crazy... (or lost opportunities for Pentax)

[Doug Franklin]

Bob Blakely wrote:
> No, but it's where I'm going to get some of my money. Careful choice of the 
> best of the most desired has made the value of my collection grow over the 
> years. If you buy the good stuff that everyone covets, you don't loose, it 
> grows in value.

True, but I won't sell some of them unless it's either that or starve to 
death, or I end up switching systems down the road.  I could make a huge 
profit on the 1.7X T/C and the FA* 200/2.8, for example, but they're 
/much/ too good to let go of.

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DougF (KG4LMZ)

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Re: Ned Bunnell and "Pentax Pro Services" announcement

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

On Oct 19, 2007, at 3:51 PM, Adam Maas wrote:

> Mark Erickson wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> This may have already been discussed, but I think it's pretty  
>> significant.
>> Ned Bunnell, an occasional poster to the Pentax forum over at  
>> DPReview, was
>> recently promoted to President of Pentax Imaging in the USA.   
>> There's a nice
>> "congratulations" thread over at DPReview.
>>
>> In a response in the thread, Ned himself wrote the following  
>> regarding
>> Pentax USA's presence at PhotoPlus in New York:
>>
>> "And we'll be announcing our new  Pentax Pro Services program."
>>
>> M.  "Pro Services".  If it's real, it's a significant step for  
>> Pentax in
>> the USA.  Sure doesn't sound like Hoya wants to pull the plug on  
>> their
>> camera business, does it?
>>
>> What does it mean regarding upcoming DSLRs?  More high end  
>> products, I
>> hope
>>
>>  --Mark
>>
>
> That's seriously good news. Ned gets the market, which bodes very well
> for Pentax's biggest market, and Pro support is a place where  
> everybody
> except Canon falls down (NPS is a joke, Oly is also finally  
> introducing
> a Pro support system concurrent with the E-3 Launch)

Oly's had a Pro Support Services for some time, Adam. It's just darn  
hard to qualify for it ... You have to prove that something like 80%  
or more of your income comes from the use of Olympus brand camera  
equipment. I have three friends who are members and they tell me that  
the service level it provides is outstanding, but it took each of  
them over a year to qualify.

Godfrey


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Re: Interesting times with Pentax

[Adam Maas]

Cotty wrote:
> On 19/10/07, Godfrey DiGiorgi, discombobulated, unleashed:
> 
>> Sounds like a good prognostication to me.
> 
> Sorta like a wet dream.
> 

Nah, it's just the A700 sensor's capabilities, with the possibility of 
some of the D300/40D features arriving (14bit RAW, Live View).

-Adam

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Re: PESO - Beach Scene

[ann sanfedele]

Paul Stenquist wrote:

>I agree. And I also noticed that the true horizon isn't rotated. It's  
>a Gordian Knot.
>Paul
>
and the funny thing is... I didn't see the ocean horizon the first time 
around  - talk about messed up eyes
ann

>On Oct 19, 2007, at 5:00 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I didn't say that the photo was rotated (although it might be).
>>It just give me a sensation that it is due to the strong, sloping
>>foreground lines.
>>
>>Godfrey
>>
>>On Oct 19, 2007, at 1:35 PM, Bill Owens wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>It looks to my eyes that the water in the extreme background is
>>>horizontal,
>>>but the beach has a slope to it.
>>>
>>>Bill
>>>
>>>-Original Message-
>>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>>Behalf Of ann
>>>sanfedele
>>>Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:27 PM
>>>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>>>Subject: Re: PESO - Beach Scene
>>>
>>>Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>
From: "Bruce Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>




>Pentax K10D, DA* 50-135/2.8 @ 123mm
>ISO 800, 1/3000 sec @ f/4.5, Handheld
>
>http://www.daytonphoto.com/PAW/ptreyes_0097.htm
>
>
>  
>
I like the light and overall feel. However it feels tilted to my eye
due to the way the foreground and background interact, which is
distracting.

Godfrey





>>>hey, Godders -- I see what you mean - but I thought the overall photo
>>>was so strong I didn't notice it at first -
>>>Bruce, would too much be lost if you ever so slgihtly corrected it by
>>> sa 1 or 2 degrees so the top of
>>>the near water was really horizontal?
>>>  
>>>
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>
>
>  
>



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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[Sylwester Pietrzyk]

On 2007-10-19, at 21:20, Mark Roberts wrote:

> I've heard that it was designed as a D-FA lens for full-frame coverage
> (but "optimized" for digital with the latest anti-reflective coatings)
> and the designation was changed to DA because it has no aperture ring.
>
> We'll see what the score is when it becomes available.
On the very first roadmap it was marked as DFA lens similar to 300/4  
and 200/2.8... Perhpas reason for delay is that they want to return  
to idea of making it DFA lenses and make it fully compatible with  
eventual FF body in the future?



Cheers,
Sylwek




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Re: Shooting the Orionids

[Bob Blakely]

I recommend ~35mm to 50mm lens for 35mm cameras, ~20mm to 35mm for APS size 
sensors to catch some sky, as you can't predict exactly where the trails 
will appear. Must be on tripod. No point in having any of the ground in the 
shot, unless for effect. NO LIGHTS IN FRAME! Lens should be wide open, 
unless test shot reveals blurry even when properly focused. If this is so, 
loose a stop. ISO should be 400. Length of exposure is dependent on light 
pollution in your area. Best to get out of town. For me in Orange Co, 
California, this means a 100 mile drive minimum, though you can do ome 
backyard photography limited to the brightest trails. Try 10 minute 
exposure. If it works (still black between star trails) good, else cut 
exposure in half until there is some black between trails. If sensor noise 
is apparent, cut in half 'till gone. If you're using a K10D, then use 
Pentax's free downloadable software to automatically snap and retrieve your 
exposures for as long as you want. Just lay back in a lawn recliner, a 
blanket, beer, wings, chips & dip and some companions yak it up while 
watching the show.

Use flashlights with red gel only.
Any auto lights for any reason will destroy your current exposure.

Regards,
Bob...

"Art is not a reflection of reality. it is the reality of a reflection."
  -Jean Luc Godard

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


> This weekend the Orionid meteor shower will be going on.  Sunday is also 
> my
> birthday, so since I'm going to be staying up late anyway, I figure I 
> might as
> well go out and shoot some shooting stars.
>
> What are good settings for shooting such things?  Shutter speed, aperture, 
> ISO,
> noise reduction on/off, etc.  I've never tried to shoot a meteor shower 
> before,
> so any suggestions would be much appreciated.


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Re: Interesting times with Pentax

[Adam Maas]

Toralf Lund wrote:
> Adam Maas wrote:
>> Roman Melihhov wrote:
>>   
>>> I remember how it all started with K10D. Lotta rumors, unrealistic 
>>> expectations, [ ... ]
>>> Roman.
>>>
>>> 
>>
>> Good bet?
>>
>> 12MP, 5fps, improved AF system, ~20 RAW buffer, 1-2 stops better high ISO 
>> noise. ISO200-6400 native.  New shutter with 1/8000 and 1/250 sync. 
>>
>> Possibly with 14bit RAW's 
> Do you think that would be possible?
> 
> I know you (or was it someone else?) have been saying the light 
> collecting capability of sensors has been improved lately, but in order 
> to achieve a higher bit count, a better electric charge storage capacity 
> would probably be needed as well. Or at least, some papers I read on 
> this a year or so ago seemed to suggest that 14 bits won't be possible 
> with the current element sizes even with 0 noise.
> 
> - Toralf
> 
> 

That was me talking about the improved light collecting ability of the 
sensor.

Note the 'good bet' I describe is the Sony 12MP CMOS sensor, which is 
available in 12 or 14bit forms (the D300 is 14 bit, the Sony A700 is 12 
bit). The only real guess there (if Pentax goes for the Sony sensor) is 
the new shutter, but I'd expect they'd want a higher-spec shutter on a 
semi-pro body, the K10D has a relatively low-end shutter.

-Adam

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Re: Lens purchase saga

[Stan Halpin]

My filter is trained to accept Adorama mail. Your hypothesis is  
plausible, but probably wrong. I think they just screwed up.

stan

On Oct 19, 2007, at 5:41 AM, Boris Liberman wrote:

> Stan,
>
> What if Adorama people really did send you an e-mail, but as usual it
> might have included some promotional material that was recognized as
> spam and that e-mail never reached you?
>
> I am not trying to advocate, merely thinking out loud here.
>
> Boris
>
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Re: Ned Bunnell and "Pentax Pro Services" announcement

[Adam Maas]

Mark Erickson wrote:
> All, 
> 
> This may have already been discussed, but I think it's pretty significant.  
> Ned Bunnell, an occasional poster to the Pentax forum over at DPReview, was 
> recently promoted to President of Pentax Imaging in the USA.  There's a nice 
> "congratulations" thread over at DPReview. 
> 
> In a response in the thread, Ned himself wrote the following regarding 
> Pentax USA's presence at PhotoPlus in New York: 
> 
> "And we'll be announcing our new  Pentax Pro Services program." 
> 
> M.  "Pro Services".  If it's real, it's a significant step for Pentax in 
> the USA.  Sure doesn't sound like Hoya wants to pull the plug on their 
> camera business, does it? 
> 
> What does it mean regarding upcoming DSLRs?  More high end products, I 
> hope 
> 
>  --Mark
> 

That's seriously good news. Ned gets the market, which bodes very well 
for Pentax's biggest market, and Pro support is a place where everybody 
except Canon falls down (NPS is a joke, Oly is also finally introducing 
a Pro support system concurrent with the E-3 Launch)

-Adam

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FS 18-55/3.5-5.6

[Stan Halpin]

Sorry - missed the Subject line on the original...

On Oct 19, 2007, at 5:21 PM, Stan Halpin wrote:

> The basic kit lens for Pentax digital cameras - good value. This is
> essentially unused, in original box etc.
> Would make a good companion to the *ist-D I also have up for sale.
> Make me an offer on the lens alone or on the set.
>
> Off list.
>
> Stan
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>


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Re: Ned Bunnell and "Pentax Pro Services" announcement

[Paul Stenquist]

Good news. Ned has dropped in here occasionally. Perhaps we'll see  
him again when the program is introduced.
Paul
On Oct 19, 2007, at 6:00 PM, Mark Erickson wrote:

> All,
>
> This may have already been discussed, but I think it's pretty  
> significant.
> Ned Bunnell, an occasional poster to the Pentax forum over at  
> DPReview, was
> recently promoted to President of Pentax Imaging in the USA.   
> There's a nice
> "congratulations" thread over at DPReview.
>
> In a response in the thread, Ned himself wrote the following regarding
> Pentax USA's presence at PhotoPlus in New York:
>
> "And we'll be announcing our new  Pentax Pro Services program."
>
> M.  "Pro Services".  If it's real, it's a significant step for  
> Pentax in
> the USA.  Sure doesn't sound like Hoya wants to pull the plug on their
> camera business, does it?
>
> What does it mean regarding upcoming DSLRs?  More high end products, I
> hope
>
>  --Mark
>
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Re: Interesting times with Pentax

[Paul Stenquist]

I agree. And it will make a nice camera paired with the K10D as backup.
Paul
On Oct 19, 2007, at 6:13 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:

>> Good bet?
>>
>> 12MP, 5fps, improved AF system, ~20 RAW buffer, 1-2 stops better
>> high ISO noise. ISO200-6400 native.  New shutter with 1/8000 and
>> 1/250 sync.
>>
>> Possibly with 14bit RAW's and Live View. Hopefully all stuffed into
>> a K10D body (I like the K10D body)
>
> Sounds like a good prognostication to me.
>
> Godfrey
>
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Re: Starfighters & Co.

[Brian Walters]

I would have guessed P51 but apparently that's not it.

I'd never heard of the Hispano Aviacion HA 1112 Buchon but I doubt that's it.  
The wheels retract away from the fuselage in the photo you posted whereas in 
Dario's photo they retract towards the fuselage.



Cheers

Brian

++
Brian Walters
Western Sydney, Australia
http://members.westnet.com.au/brianwal/SL/
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/brianwalters



Quoting mike wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> 
> > 
> Hispano Aviacion HA 1112 Buchon
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hispano_Aviaci%C3%B3n_Ha_1112_Buchon.jpeg
> 
> BTW, wind your sound up and listen to the Merlin at full blast
> here.  Don't play the Corsair one at the top, it will make you feel
> ill.
> http://www.aviationshoppe.com/Sounds1.html
> 
> 
>

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Re: Shooting the Orionids

[Steve Sharpe]

At 3:03 PM -0700 10/19/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>This weekend the Orionid meteor shower will be going on.  Sunday is also my
>birthday, so since I'm going to be staying up late anyway, I figure I might as
>well go out and shoot some shooting stars.
>
>What are good settings for shooting such things?  Shutter speed, 
>aperture, ISO,
>noise reduction on/off, etc.  I've never tried to shoot a meteor 
>shower before,
>so any suggestions would be much appreciated.

The moon will be just past first quarter so you will want to stay up 
late (or get up really early) to avoid its light washing out the 
meteors. A dark, non-light-polluted sky is important as well.

-- 
Steve
•

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Interesting times with Pentax

[Cotty]

On 19/10/07, Godfrey DiGiorgi, discombobulated, unleashed:

>Sounds like a good prognostication to me.

Sorta like a wet dream.

-- 


Cheers,
  Cotty


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Re: PESO - Beach Scene

[Paul Stenquist]

I agree. And I also noticed that the true horizon isn't rotated. It's  
a Gordian Knot.
Paul
On Oct 19, 2007, at 5:00 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:

> I didn't say that the photo was rotated (although it might be).
> It just give me a sensation that it is due to the strong, sloping
> foreground lines.
>
> Godfrey
>
> On Oct 19, 2007, at 1:35 PM, Bill Owens wrote:
>
>> It looks to my eyes that the water in the extreme background is
>> horizontal,
>> but the beach has a slope to it.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of ann
>> sanfedele
>> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:27 PM
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>> Subject: Re: PESO - Beach Scene
>>
>> Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
>>
>>> From: "Bruce Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>
>>>
 Pentax K10D, DA* 50-135/2.8 @ 123mm
 ISO 800, 1/3000 sec @ f/4.5, Handheld

 http://www.daytonphoto.com/PAW/ptreyes_0097.htm


>>>
>>> I like the light and overall feel. However it feels tilted to my eye
>>> due to the way the foreground and background interact, which is
>>> distracting.
>>>
>>> Godfrey
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> hey, Godders -- I see what you mean - but I thought the overall photo
>> was so strong I didn't notice it at first -
>> Bruce, would too much be lost if you ever so slgihtly corrected it by
>>  sa 1 or 2 degrees so the top of
>> the near water was really horizontal?
>
>
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[no subject]

[Stan Halpin]

The basic kit lens for Pentax digital cameras - good value. This is  
essentially unused, in original box etc.
Would make a good companion to the *ist-D I also have up for sale.  
Make me an offer on the lens alone or on the set.

Off list.

Stan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Interesting times with Pentax

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

> Good bet?
>
> 12MP, 5fps, improved AF system, ~20 RAW buffer, 1-2 stops better  
> high ISO noise. ISO200-6400 native.  New shutter with 1/8000 and  
> 1/250 sync.
>
> Possibly with 14bit RAW's and Live View. Hopefully all stuffed into  
> a K10D body (I like the K10D body)

Sounds like a good prognostication to me.

Godfrey

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Re: Next move from Pentax: hints about sensor for next camera(s)

[John Francis]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 03:46:48PM -0400, Mark Roberts wrote:
> A few days ago Mike J had a really interesting historical tale of 
> camera marketing and product lines:
> 
> http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2007/10/in-the-early-19.html

Apropos of nothing:  I just love the fact that in the sponsor
advertisements at the left of the screen "How to Shoot RAW"
is immediately followed by "artistic nudes"


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Shooting the Orionids

[npx]

This weekend the Orionid meteor shower will be going on.  Sunday is also my 
birthday, so since I'm going to be staying up late anyway, I figure I might as 
well go out and shoot some shooting stars.

What are good settings for shooting such things?  Shutter speed, aperture, ISO, 
noise reduction on/off, etc.  I've never tried to shoot a meteor shower before, 
so any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
John Celio
(28 for just a little longer)

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Ned Bunnell and "Pentax Pro Services" announcement

[Mark Erickson]

All, 

This may have already been discussed, but I think it's pretty significant.  
Ned Bunnell, an occasional poster to the Pentax forum over at DPReview, was 
recently promoted to President of Pentax Imaging in the USA.  There's a nice 
"congratulations" thread over at DPReview. 

In a response in the thread, Ned himself wrote the following regarding 
Pentax USA's presence at PhotoPlus in New York: 

"And we'll be announcing our new  Pentax Pro Services program." 

M.  "Pro Services".  If it's real, it's a significant step for Pentax in 
the USA.  Sure doesn't sound like Hoya wants to pull the plug on their 
camera business, does it? 

What does it mean regarding upcoming DSLRs?  More high end products, I 
hope 

 --Mark

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Re: What? was Striving for adequate; was Cut or Keep? A Question About Editing

[John Sessoms]

From: "wendy beard

> On 10/18/07, John Sessoms <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> > I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.
>> >
>> > I'm sure more than one person has taken photos of Belgian shepherds, and
>> > when you zoom into the image, the dog on the T-shirt has ears that look
>> > different from your "Tyra" image.
>> >
> 
> It is the same. I know it for a fact.
> I even know whose shop it is. Just have to locate his contact details.
> 
> Wendy
> 
> 

If you say so ... but what I see is:

Tyra T-shirt

  ^  ^  -  ^
/ \/ \/ \/ \
  o  o  o  o
   u u



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Re: Interesting times with Pentax

[Toralf Lund]

Adam Maas wrote:
> Roman Melihhov wrote:
>   
>> I remember how it all started with K10D. Lotta rumors, unrealistic 
>> expectations, [ ... ]
>> Roman.
>>
>> 
>
>
> Good bet?
>
> 12MP, 5fps, improved AF system, ~20 RAW buffer, 1-2 stops better high ISO 
> noise. ISO200-6400 native.  New shutter with 1/8000 and 1/250 sync. 
>
> Possibly with 14bit RAW's 
Do you think that would be possible?

I know you (or was it someone else?) have been saying the light 
collecting capability of sensors has been improved lately, but in order 
to achieve a higher bit count, a better electric charge storage capacity 
would probably be needed as well. Or at least, some papers I read on 
this a year or so ago seemed to suggest that 14 bits won't be possible 
with the current element sizes even with 0 noise.

- Toralf


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