Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On 17/12/06, John Forbes, discombobulated, unleashed: When were you last in Scotland? It was appalling - got married there!! -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
If they're Pentax film cameras the users are keeping the rest of their lenses to use on their new DSLRs. Gonz wrote: Not only that, the proof can be seen in ebay. Just look at all the film SLRs being sold with a normal 50mm 2.0 lens. I would wager that DSLRs are no different. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think your giving the bulk of the current market too much credit. Dave On 12/16/06, J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You claimed 90% originally, not closer to 90% than 10%. I dont think its anywhere near 90%, I bet the first thing many people do is get rid of the kit lens or buy another that will do what the kit wont because the kit lenses are limited capability and buying SLR/DSLRS is about capabilities. I have a pet peeve about when people always claim somebody else or 90% of the people does this or that, when they don't. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 10:56 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Do you really think that 90% of DSLR buyers will never buy another lens? That's crazy! One of the main reasons for using SLRS/DSLRS is to be able to change lenses as needed. In fact the digital point and shoots are now getting so good, some going to bigger sensors, that it wouldnt make sense to even go with a DSLR for those 90% people... jco Yes. I think that a large fraction of people who buy DSLRs never buy another lens. I pulled the percentage out of the air, but I'll bet it's closer to 90% than it is to 10%. Remember... many people buy a DSLR because they've been told it's the best they can buy. They happily put it on Smiley mode and point-n-shoot. Just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean people don't do it. -Cory -- Things should be made as simple as possible -- but no simpler. --Albert Einstein -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
WRONG It's approximately 83.73257169% vbg Dave On 12/16/06, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, make that 85%. J. C. O'Connell wrote: Do you really think that 90% of DSLR buyers will never buy another lens? That's crazy! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
WRONG It's approximately 83.73257169% Dave You obviosuly know NOTHING about professional pohotography, to anyone with half-a-clue, its obviously 83.73257168%. What were you thinking, man. - Peter On 12/16/06, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, make that 85%. J. C. O'Connell wrote: Do you really think that 90% of DSLR buyers will never buy another lens? That's crazy! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
If someone is going to buy a DSLR, but it's NOT to use multiple lenses, WHY would they buy a DSLR in the first place? The only answer I can think of is for better image quality and you are not going to get that from a cheap supernormal zoom lens. They would be much better served buying a high end PS cemera with a really good lens on it ( even over a DSLR with a really good supernormal lens on it) because it would be smaller, lighter, and can have a lens system optimized for the sensor without the limitations a reflex system imposes IMHO. To me, the main advantage of an SLR/DSLR is the ability to change lenses to meet the specific requirement. And I dont believe that a supernormal zoom can meet 99% of a typical person's shooting needs. A majority, maybe yes, but 99% NO. And your example of using three primes is not the same as one zoom because primes typically offer way better image quality than cheap zooms do, as well as tyically being smaller and faster than supernormal zooms of the same range. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Cassino Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 12:56 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D I have a good selection of lenses on hand, even after i sold off the ones I bought as 'collectables' a few year ago. In reality, many go unused for months at a time (or longer.) I last used my A* 300 f4 on vacation in July, 2005. I can't remember when I last used the Sigma 14mm f 3.5 or the A* 400 f 2.8. I set aside serious time for photography and try to take a disciplined approach to actively producing images. At the end of the day, a handful of lenses does most of the work, and aside from specialized macro work, a normal prime and standard zoom are the real workhorses. I do a lot of Medium Format shooting with 3 lenses - 55mm to 170. The same focal length range is covered by a 28-80 mm lens in 35mm format, or 18-55mm lens in APS-C format. I'd suspect that for a more casual shooters good normal zoom would fill the bill for 99% of their shooting needs, and the cost / benefit ratio doesn't justify the purchase of a new lens for that 1%. I wouldn't expect the typical DSLR buyer to pony up for more lenses. (Unless they subscribe to this list and get the bug...) IMO - the smart marketing money would be to put a good lens in the kit - sharp, minimal distortion and light falloff, good close focusing - and realize that many people will just use that. Better to have people happy with the results of their kit lens, and giving good feedback about their camera, than giving them a junk lens and hoping they will upgrade. FWIW - I haven't tested the 18-55mm but it seems like a reasonably good lens. Noticeable light fall off and softness in the in the corners wide open, but not bad stopped down to f8 or 11. But that's just a casual observation. - MCC Gonz wrote: Just as I suspected. I'll bet its the same pretty much everywhere. I know of at least 7 people personally in my area with DSLRs, only 1 of them has more than two lenses and one has two. The rest all have 1 lens. The person with more than two is a pdml subscriber so I met him through the list, therefore he almost doesnt count in this quick survey. Most of these people I know bought the camera with a kit lens or bought their own higher end zoom. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Adam Maas Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D That's certainly the case with most buyers of base-model DSLR's, just like it was for base model SLR's back in the days of film. I doubt its 90%, but 70% is probably close. I just talked to the one knowledgable sales person at Don's Photo. She say that 75-80% buy the camera and kit lens and at some point buy a longer zoom , and perhaps 15-20% will eventually buy a second lens, with very a few buying more than that, generally because they have decided they have a specific need or want. This may not be an accurate market indication, just a local snapshot. William Robb -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mark Cassino Photography Kalamazoo www.markcassino.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Oh, GO EAT SHIT you fucking asshole. Why dont you just go back to fucking your mother and just leave me alone? You dont have the right to start with these obscene personal remarks on the list every time you dont agree with my posts. I said absurd and meant absurd, but that's not hardly the same as lurid childish fuckface comments everytime you dont like one of my posts or points. They will just be responded to in kind everytime and this stuff does not belong on the list, why do you insist on restarting with it OVER AND OVER again? jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William Robb Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 1:47 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Fuckface, this is where you get off the train. Piss off now. William Robb - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D WRONG- I just disagreed with the absurd IMHO 90% of DSLR buyers will never buy anything more than the original kit lens comments and the even more absurd arguments to support it as being the truth. NOTE: When I use the word argument, I mean it in the legal sense, a calm logical discussion of proof, not like a fight. And what was going on a in the past is not what's going on today. DSLR buyers are not like SLR buyers of yesteryear. They are more advanced photo enthusiasts than the SLR buyers of the 70's ever were. BACK THEN there was no such thing as a PS market like there is today and the PS market dominates even after the switch from PS film to PS digital. I simply do not agree with the numbers or with the arguments presented to support the numbers. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William Robb Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 5:31 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D This whole argument is seriously flawed because it assumes that a buyer would return to the the same vendor who sold the the kit when buying extra lenses later or even at the same time of initial purchase. Its not an arguement, it's a discussion. Where I am, there is only one brick and mortar vendor. Before the internet, I sold cameras for a living, what Melinda told me today matches what i recall from my selling days. John, you are trying to make an argument where non exists, using wild guess work and presumptions to support an untenable position against people who have first hand knowledge about what they are talking about. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Same reason they drive a SUV, but never go off-road. It's more impressive. -Adam J. C. O'Connell wrote: If someone is going to buy a DSLR, but it's NOT to use multiple lenses, WHY would they buy a DSLR in the first place? The only answer I can think of is for better image quality and you are not going to get that from a cheap supernormal zoom lens. They would be much better served buying a high end PS cemera with a really good lens on it ( even over a DSLR with a really good supernormal lens on it) because it would be smaller, lighter, and can have a lens system optimized for the sensor without the limitations a reflex system imposes IMHO. To me, the main advantage of an SLR/DSLR is the ability to change lenses to meet the specific requirement. And I dont believe that a supernormal zoom can meet 99% of a typical person's shooting needs. A majority, maybe yes, but 99% NO. And your example of using three primes is not the same as one zoom because primes typically offer way better image quality than cheap zooms do, as well as tyically being smaller and faster than supernormal zooms of the same range. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Cassino Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 12:56 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D I have a good selection of lenses on hand, even after i sold off the ones I bought as 'collectables' a few year ago. In reality, many go unused for months at a time (or longer.) I last used my A* 300 f4 on vacation in July, 2005. I can't remember when I last used the Sigma 14mm f 3.5 or the A* 400 f 2.8. I set aside serious time for photography and try to take a disciplined approach to actively producing images. At the end of the day, a handful of lenses does most of the work, and aside from specialized macro work, a normal prime and standard zoom are the real workhorses. I do a lot of Medium Format shooting with 3 lenses - 55mm to 170. The same focal length range is covered by a 28-80 mm lens in 35mm format, or 18-55mm lens in APS-C format. I'd suspect that for a more casual shooters good normal zoom would fill the bill for 99% of their shooting needs, and the cost / benefit ratio doesn't justify the purchase of a new lens for that 1%. I wouldn't expect the typical DSLR buyer to pony up for more lenses. (Unless they subscribe to this list and get the bug...) IMO - the smart marketing money would be to put a good lens in the kit - sharp, minimal distortion and light falloff, good close focusing - and realize that many people will just use that. Better to have people happy with the results of their kit lens, and giving good feedback about their camera, than giving them a junk lens and hoping they will upgrade. FWIW - I haven't tested the 18-55mm but it seems like a reasonably good lens. Noticeable light fall off and softness in the in the corners wide open, but not bad stopped down to f8 or 11. But that's just a casual observation. - MCC Gonz wrote: Just as I suspected. I'll bet its the same pretty much everywhere. I know of at least 7 people personally in my area with DSLRs, only 1 of them has more than two lenses and one has two. The rest all have 1 lens. The person with more than two is a pdml subscriber so I met him through the list, therefore he almost doesnt count in this quick survey. Most of these people I know bought the camera with a kit lens or bought their own higher end zoom. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Adam Maas Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D That's certainly the case with most buyers of base-model DSLR's, just like it was for base model SLR's back in the days of film. I doubt its 90%, but 70% is probably close. I just talked to the one knowledgable sales person at Don's Photo. She say that 75-80% buy the camera and kit lens and at some point buy a longer zoom , and perhaps 15-20% will eventually buy a second lens, with very a few buying more than that, generally because they have decided they have a specific need or want. This may not be an accurate market indication, just a local snapshot. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
John your argument below, while valid, is from the photographers perspective. I know lots of people who own D/SLR's and only have one lens. They simply got caught up in the Pro's use SLR's, ergo SLR's must take better pictures mindset, bought one with a cheap Sigma zoom use it like a PS camera at parties. Hell, for the first 3 years of my Pentax ownership I had just one lens FA 28-105mm f4-5.6 PZ. Although that had more to do with being a student who couldn't afford the lenses I wanted. I show my photos now and again to people with no interest in photography, and the most common comment I get is, WOW, you must have a really good camera. That makes me want to scream I had something to do with it too you know, but I just nod and say It's alright I think you have to understand there are a lot of people out there with too much cash, not enough understanding of photography some very capable salespeople. Cheers, Dave On 12/16/06, J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If someone is going to buy a DSLR, but it's NOT to use multiple lenses, WHY would they buy a DSLR in the first place? The only answer I can think of is for better image quality and you are not going to get that from a cheap supernormal zoom lens. They would be much better served buying a high end PS cemera with a really good lens on it ( even over a DSLR with a really good supernormal lens on it) because it would be smaller, lighter, and can have a lens system optimized for the sensor without the limitations a reflex system imposes IMHO. To me, the main advantage of an SLR/DSLR is the ability to change lenses to meet the specific requirement. And I dont believe that a supernormal zoom can meet 99% of a typical person's shooting needs. A majority, maybe yes, but 99% NO. And your example of using three primes is not the same as one zoom because primes typically offer way better image quality than cheap zooms do, as well as tyically being smaller and faster than supernormal zooms of the same range. jco -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Who would they be impressing? Certainly not anyone who knows anything about cameras. I would be more impressed seeing a true high end point and shoot then I would seeing an entry level DSLR with a cheap kit lens on it all the time. To each his own I guess jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Maas Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 8:15 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Same reason they drive a SUV, but never go off-road. It's more impressive. -Adam J. C. O'Connell wrote: If someone is going to buy a DSLR, but it's NOT to use multiple lenses, WHY would they buy a DSLR in the first place? The only answer I can think of is for better image quality and you are not going to get that from a cheap supernormal zoom lens. They would be much better served buying a high end PS cemera with a really good lens on it ( even over a DSLR with a really good supernormal lens on it) because it would be smaller, lighter, and can have a lens system optimized for the sensor without the limitations a reflex system imposes IMHO. To me, the main advantage of an SLR/DSLR is the ability to change lenses to meet the specific requirement. And I dont believe that a supernormal zoom can meet 99% of a typical person's shooting needs. A majority, maybe yes, but 99% NO. And your example of using three primes is not the same as one zoom because primes typically offer way better image quality than cheap zooms do, as well as tyically being smaller and faster than supernormal zooms of the same range. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Cassino Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 12:56 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D I have a good selection of lenses on hand, even after i sold off the ones I bought as 'collectables' a few year ago. In reality, many go unused for months at a time (or longer.) I last used my A* 300 f4 on vacation in July, 2005. I can't remember when I last used the Sigma 14mm f 3.5 or the A* 400 f 2.8. I set aside serious time for photography and try to take a disciplined approach to actively producing images. At the end of the day, a handful of lenses does most of the work, and aside from specialized macro work, a normal prime and standard zoom are the real workhorses. I do a lot of Medium Format shooting with 3 lenses - 55mm to 170. The same focal length range is covered by a 28-80 mm lens in 35mm format, or 18-55mm lens in APS-C format. I'd suspect that for a more casual shooters good normal zoom would fill the bill for 99% of their shooting needs, and the cost / benefit ratio doesn't justify the purchase of a new lens for that 1%. I wouldn't expect the typical DSLR buyer to pony up for more lenses. (Unless they subscribe to this list and get the bug...) IMO - the smart marketing money would be to put a good lens in the kit - sharp, minimal distortion and light falloff, good close focusing - and realize that many people will just use that. Better to have people happy with the results of their kit lens, and giving good feedback about their camera, than giving them a junk lens and hoping they will upgrade. FWIW - I haven't tested the 18-55mm but it seems like a reasonably good lens. Noticeable light fall off and softness in the in the corners wide open, but not bad stopped down to f8 or 11. But that's just a casual observation. - MCC Gonz wrote: Just as I suspected. I'll bet its the same pretty much everywhere. I know of at least 7 people personally in my area with DSLRs, only 1 of them has more than two lenses and one has two. The rest all have 1 lens. The person with more than two is a pdml subscriber so I met him through the list, therefore he almost doesnt count in this quick survey. Most of these people I know bought the camera with a kit lens or bought their own higher end zoom. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Adam Maas Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D That's certainly the case with most buyers of base-model DSLR's, just like it was for base model SLR's back in the days of film. I doubt its 90%, but 70% is probably close. I just talked to the one knowledgable sales person at Don's Photo. She say that 75-80% buy the camera and kit lens and at some point buy a longer zoom , and perhaps 15-20% will eventually buy a second lens, with very a few buying more than that, generally because they have decided they have a specific need or want. This may not be an accurate market indication, just a local snapshot. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On 12/16/06 8:38 AM, J. C. O'Connell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Who would they be impressing? Certainly not anyone who knows anything about cameras. I would be more impressed seeing a true high end point and shoot then I would seeing an entry level DSLR with a cheap kit lens on it all the time. I always thought this being true. Something people in this list might not even think of. But then, most PDMLers cannot be those purely entry level people either. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
I mentioned this about a year ago, but will do a quick FWIW recap. Local photo shop owner after attending a photo convention, (I forget which one), decided to stock the *ist DL, due to its great price point. He wondered if the 18~55 was at least equal to a like Promaster (Tamron re-badge) so asked if I'd do a comparison. I did not retain the results, but suffice to say that the Pentax was much superior!. Shop owner was instantly convinced that in-camera image processing still needs the benefit of a 'good' lens. Of course it's recognized that sample QC range will certainly vary in consideration of manufacturing costs. Jack --- Mark Cassino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a good selection of lenses on hand, even after i sold off the ones I bought as 'collectables' a few year ago. In reality, many go unused for months at a time (or longer.) I last used my A* 300 f4 on vacation in July, 2005. I can't remember when I last used the Sigma 14mm f 3.5 or the A* 400 f 2.8. I set aside serious time for photography and try to take a disciplined approach to actively producing images. At the end of the day, a handful of lenses does most of the work, and aside from specialized macro work, a normal prime and standard zoom are the real workhorses. I do a lot of Medium Format shooting with 3 lenses - 55mm to 170. The same focal length range is covered by a 28-80 mm lens in 35mm format, or 18-55mm lens in APS-C format. I'd suspect that for a more casual shooters good normal zoom would fill the bill for 99% of their shooting needs, and the cost / benefit ratio doesn't justify the purchase of a new lens for that 1%. I wouldn't expect the typical DSLR buyer to pony up for more lenses. (Unless they subscribe to this list and get the bug...) IMO - the smart marketing money would be to put a good lens in the kit - sharp, minimal distortion and light falloff, good close focusing - and realize that many people will just use that. Better to have people happy with the results of their kit lens, and giving good feedback about their camera, than giving them a junk lens and hoping they will upgrade. FWIW - I haven't tested the 18-55mm but it seems like a reasonably good lens. Noticeable light fall off and softness in the in the corners wide open, but not bad stopped down to f8 or 11. But that's just a casual observation. - MCC Gonz wrote: Just as I suspected. I'll bet its the same pretty much everywhere. I know of at least 7 people personally in my area with DSLRs, only 1 of them has more than two lenses and one has two. The rest all have 1 lens. The person with more than two is a pdml subscriber so I met him through the list, therefore he almost doesnt count in this quick survey. Most of these people I know bought the camera with a kit lens or bought their own higher end zoom. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Adam Maas Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D That's certainly the case with most buyers of base-model DSLR's, just like it was for base model SLR's back in the days of film. I doubt its 90%, but 70% is probably close. I just talked to the one knowledgable sales person at Don's Photo. She say that 75-80% buy the camera and kit lens and at some point buy a longer zoom , and perhaps 15-20% will eventually buy a second lens, with very a few buying more than that, generally because they have decided they have a specific need or want. This may not be an accurate market indication, just a local snapshot. William Robb -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mark Cassino Photography Kalamazoo www.markcassino.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Mmm Tamron rebadge? Does Tamron make low end 18-55? Wouldn't it be a Sigma instead? 2006/12/16, Jack Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I mentioned this about a year ago, but will do a quick FWIW recap. Local photo shop owner after attending a photo convention, (I forget which one), decided to stock the *ist DL, due to its great price point. He wondered if the 18~55 was at least equal to a like Promaster (Tamron re-badge) so asked if I'd do a comparison. I did not retain the results, but suffice to say that the Pentax was much superior!. Shop owner was instantly convinced that in-camera image processing still needs the benefit of a 'good' lens. Of course it's recognized that sample QC range will certainly vary in consideration of manufacturing costs. Jack --- Mark Cassino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a good selection of lenses on hand, even after i sold off the ones I bought as 'collectables' a few year ago. In reality, many go unused for months at a time (or longer.) I last used my A* 300 f4 on vacation in July, 2005. I can't remember when I last used the Sigma 14mm f 3.5 or the A* 400 f 2.8. I set aside serious time for photography and try to take a disciplined approach to actively producing images. At the end of the day, a handful of lenses does most of the work, and aside from specialized macro work, a normal prime and standard zoom are the real workhorses. I do a lot of Medium Format shooting with 3 lenses - 55mm to 170. The same focal length range is covered by a 28-80 mm lens in 35mm format, or 18-55mm lens in APS-C format. I'd suspect that for a more casual shooters good normal zoom would fill the bill for 99% of their shooting needs, and the cost / benefit ratio doesn't justify the purchase of a new lens for that 1%. I wouldn't expect the typical DSLR buyer to pony up for more lenses. (Unless they subscribe to this list and get the bug...) IMO - the smart marketing money would be to put a good lens in the kit - sharp, minimal distortion and light falloff, good close focusing - and realize that many people will just use that. Better to have people happy with the results of their kit lens, and giving good feedback about their camera, than giving them a junk lens and hoping they will upgrade. FWIW - I haven't tested the 18-55mm but it seems like a reasonably good lens. Noticeable light fall off and softness in the in the corners wide open, but not bad stopped down to f8 or 11. But that's just a casual observation. - MCC Gonz wrote: Just as I suspected. I'll bet its the same pretty much everywhere. I know of at least 7 people personally in my area with DSLRs, only 1 of them has more than two lenses and one has two. The rest all have 1 lens. The person with more than two is a pdml subscriber so I met him through the list, therefore he almost doesnt count in this quick survey. Most of these people I know bought the camera with a kit lens or bought their own higher end zoom. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Adam Maas Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D That's certainly the case with most buyers of base-model DSLR's, just like it was for base model SLR's back in the days of film. I doubt its 90%, but 70% is probably close. I just talked to the one knowledgable sales person at Don's Photo. She say that 75-80% buy the camera and kit lens and at some point buy a longer zoom , and perhaps 15-20% will eventually buy a second lens, with very a few buying more than that, generally because they have decided they have a specific need or want. This may not be an accurate market indication, just a local snapshot. William Robb -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mark Cassino Photography Kalamazoo www.markcassino.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
fuckface J. C. O'Connell wrote: -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
huh? What's YOUR malfunction? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Norm Baugher Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 10:00 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D fuckface J. C. O'Connell wrote: -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Bill - this is an argument and you don't know shit. Get over it. Now, let me tell you how flawed you are... Norm William Robb wrote: Its not an arguement, it's a discussion. snip -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
I'm only reciting what the shop owner told me. (??) Jack --- Thibouille [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mmm Tamron rebadge? Does Tamron make low end 18-55? Wouldn't it be a Sigma instead? 2006/12/16, Jack Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I mentioned this about a year ago, but will do a quick FWIW recap. Local photo shop owner after attending a photo convention, (I forget which one), decided to stock the *ist DL, due to its great price point. He wondered if the 18~55 was at least equal to a like Promaster (Tamron re-badge) so asked if I'd do a comparison. I did not retain the results, but suffice to say that the Pentax was much superior!. Shop owner was instantly convinced that in-camera image processing still needs the benefit of a 'good' lens. Of course it's recognized that sample QC range will certainly vary in consideration of manufacturing costs. Jack --- Mark Cassino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a good selection of lenses on hand, even after i sold off the ones I bought as 'collectables' a few year ago. In reality, many go unused for months at a time (or longer.) I last used my A* 300 f4 on vacation in July, 2005. I can't remember when I last used the Sigma 14mm f 3.5 or the A* 400 f 2.8. I set aside serious time for photography and try to take a disciplined approach to actively producing images. At the end of the day, a handful of lenses does most of the work, and aside from specialized macro work, a normal prime and standard zoom are the real workhorses. I do a lot of Medium Format shooting with 3 lenses - 55mm to 170. The same focal length range is covered by a 28-80 mm lens in 35mm format, or 18-55mm lens in APS-C format. I'd suspect that for a more casual shooters good normal zoom would fill the bill for 99% of their shooting needs, and the cost / benefit ratio doesn't justify the purchase of a new lens for that 1%. I wouldn't expect the typical DSLR buyer to pony up for more lenses. (Unless they subscribe to this list and get the bug...) IMO - the smart marketing money would be to put a good lens in the kit - sharp, minimal distortion and light falloff, good close focusing - and realize that many people will just use that. Better to have people happy with the results of their kit lens, and giving good feedback about their camera, than giving them a junk lens and hoping they will upgrade. FWIW - I haven't tested the 18-55mm but it seems like a reasonably good lens. Noticeable light fall off and softness in the in the corners wide open, but not bad stopped down to f8 or 11. But that's just a casual observation. - MCC Gonz wrote: Just as I suspected. I'll bet its the same pretty much everywhere. I know of at least 7 people personally in my area with DSLRs, only 1 of them has more than two lenses and one has two. The rest all have 1 lens. The person with more than two is a pdml subscriber so I met him through the list, therefore he almost doesnt count in this quick survey. Most of these people I know bought the camera with a kit lens or bought their own higher end zoom. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Adam Maas Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D That's certainly the case with most buyers of base-model DSLR's, just like it was for base model SLR's back in the days of film. I doubt its 90%, but 70% is probably close. I just talked to the one knowledgable sales person at Don's Photo. She say that 75-80% buy the camera and kit lens and at some point buy a longer zoom , and perhaps 15-20% will eventually buy a second lens, with very a few buying more than that, generally because they have decided they have a specific need or want. This may not be an accurate market indication, just a local snapshot. William Robb -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mark Cassino Photography Kalamazoo www.markcassino.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Thibault Massart aka Thibouille -- *ist-D,Z1,SuperA,KX,MX, P30t and KR-10x ;) ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
OK Thanks JAck. I'm unaware of any such low end Tamron but I may be wrong. I'll check when I have time. 2006/12/16, Jack Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'm only reciting what the shop owner told me. (??) Jack --- Thibouille [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mmm Tamron rebadge? Does Tamron make low end 18-55? Wouldn't it be a Sigma instead? 2006/12/16, Jack Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I mentioned this about a year ago, but will do a quick FWIW recap. Local photo shop owner after attending a photo convention, (I forget which one), decided to stock the *ist DL, due to its great price point. He wondered if the 18~55 was at least equal to a like Promaster (Tamron re-badge) so asked if I'd do a comparison. I did not retain the results, but suffice to say that the Pentax was much superior!. Shop owner was instantly convinced that in-camera image processing still needs the benefit of a 'good' lens. Of course it's recognized that sample QC range will certainly vary in consideration of manufacturing costs. Jack --- Mark Cassino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a good selection of lenses on hand, even after i sold off the ones I bought as 'collectables' a few year ago. In reality, many go unused for months at a time (or longer.) I last used my A* 300 f4 on vacation in July, 2005. I can't remember when I last used the Sigma 14mm f 3.5 or the A* 400 f 2.8. I set aside serious time for photography and try to take a disciplined approach to actively producing images. At the end of the day, a handful of lenses does most of the work, and aside from specialized macro work, a normal prime and standard zoom are the real workhorses. I do a lot of Medium Format shooting with 3 lenses - 55mm to 170. The same focal length range is covered by a 28-80 mm lens in 35mm format, or 18-55mm lens in APS-C format. I'd suspect that for a more casual shooters good normal zoom would fill the bill for 99% of their shooting needs, and the cost / benefit ratio doesn't justify the purchase of a new lens for that 1%. I wouldn't expect the typical DSLR buyer to pony up for more lenses. (Unless they subscribe to this list and get the bug...) IMO - the smart marketing money would be to put a good lens in the kit - sharp, minimal distortion and light falloff, good close focusing - and realize that many people will just use that. Better to have people happy with the results of their kit lens, and giving good feedback about their camera, than giving them a junk lens and hoping they will upgrade. FWIW - I haven't tested the 18-55mm but it seems like a reasonably good lens. Noticeable light fall off and softness in the in the corners wide open, but not bad stopped down to f8 or 11. But that's just a casual observation. - MCC Gonz wrote: Just as I suspected. I'll bet its the same pretty much everywhere. I know of at least 7 people personally in my area with DSLRs, only 1 of them has more than two lenses and one has two. The rest all have 1 lens. The person with more than two is a pdml subscriber so I met him through the list, therefore he almost doesnt count in this quick survey. Most of these people I know bought the camera with a kit lens or bought their own higher end zoom. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Adam Maas Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D That's certainly the case with most buyers of base-model DSLR's, just like it was for base model SLR's back in the days of film. I doubt its 90%, but 70% is probably close. I just talked to the one knowledgable sales person at Don's Photo. She say that 75-80% buy the camera and kit lens and at some point buy a longer zoom , and perhaps 15-20% will eventually buy a second lens, with very a few buying more than that, generally because they have decided they have a specific need or want. This may not be an accurate market indication, just a local snapshot. William Robb -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mark Cassino Photography Kalamazoo www.markcassino.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
They couldn't care less about anybody ctually in the know, the want to impress their friends and family who, by and large, don't know shit about cameras and don't care. The big black DSLR is impressive to them even with the wee kit zoom. You'd be shocked how often I get asked if I'm a pro, just because of my (rather small) K100D and 16-45 DA zoom which is my standard carry config. -Adam J. C. O'Connell wrote: Who would they be impressing? Certainly not anyone who knows anything about cameras. I would be more impressed seeing a true high end point and shoot then I would seeing an entry level DSLR with a cheap kit lens on it all the time. To each his own I guess jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Maas Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 8:15 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Same reason they drive a SUV, but never go off-road. It's more impressive. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Tourette's syndrome Dave On 12/17/06, J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: huh? What's YOUR malfunction? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Norm Baugher Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 10:00 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D fuckface J. C. O'Connell wrote: -- -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
- Original Message - From: Norm Baugher Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Bill - this is an argument and you don't know shit. Get over it. Now, let me tell you how flawed you are... Hey moron boy, you forgotto use ALL CAPS. Get with the program or get back on your horse and get out of town. HAR!! William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
David Savage wrote: I show my photos now and again to people with no interest in photography, and the most common comment I get is, WOW, you must have a really good camera. That makes me want to scream I had something to do with it too you know, but I just nod and say It's alright There was a thread about this a year or two ago. Someone made the comment that this sort of reaction was along the lines of eating a good meal and complementing the chef on their pots and pans. :-) -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Tourette's syndrome And then some. LMAO ! Kenneth Waller - Original Message - From: David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Tourette's syndrome Dave On 12/17/06, J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: huh? What's YOUR malfunction? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Norm Baugher Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 10:00 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D fuckface J. C. O'Connell wrote: -- -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Yes, interesting conclusion: As for Pentax, the main subject of this page, the K10D could well be the beginning of their renaissance. Competition is what makes any market vibrant. Let's hope that Pentax is successful in shaking up some of the market leaders, as well as in repositioning themselves as a potential major player. With the K10D I believe that they've got the product that can help them do this. However, I believe the renaissance in fact started 2-3 years ago - with the *ist series DSLRs. If it hadn't been for the *ist D - I ,for one, would have considered leaving Pentax. Now I'm looking foreward to getting the K10D. Regards Jens Bladt http://www.jensbladt.dk +45 56 63 77 11 +45 23 43 85 77 Skype: jensbladt248 -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] vegne af Mark Roberts Sendt: 14. december 2006 14:32 Til: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Emne: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Digital Image Studio wrote: On 14/12/06, Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very enthusiastic user report: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/pentax-10D.shtml It's an interesting report, the bottom line of which MR hopes that some of Pentax's technical innovations will spur on Canon et al to build better cameras ;-) Indeed: As a Canon user I can only wish that the folks at Canon's marketing and engineering department have a close look at some of the more innovative features offered by Pentax in this new model. With DNG, post exposure JPG processing, and auto-ISO with limit setting, Pentax now offers one of the most innovative feature sets to be found on any DSLR. It looks like the big boys are going to have to start playing catch-up. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.18/586 - Release Date: 12/13/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.21/589 - Release Date: 12/15/2006 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On 16/12/06, J. C. O'Connell, discombobulated, unleashed: [re Norm Baugher] huh? What's YOUR malfunction? He's got the measure of you, Norm. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On 16/12/06, Adam Maas, discombobulated, unleashed: You'd be shocked how often I get asked if I'm a pro, just because of my (rather small) K100D and 16-45 DA zoom which is my standard carry config. Yeah but Adam, when I'm out working I carry a video camera the size of Scotland and I get asked what newspaper I'm from. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
A monopod and/or second body has the same effect here :-) Markus -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Cotty Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 11:15 PM To: pentax list Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D On 16/12/06, Adam Maas, discombobulated, unleashed: You'd be shocked how often I get asked if I'm a pro, just because of my (rather small) K100D and 16-45 DA zoom which is my standard carry config. Yeah but Adam, when I'm out working I carry a video camera the size of Scotland and I get asked what newspaper I'm from. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Jens Bladt wrote: However, I believe the renaissance in fact started 2-3 years ago - with the *ist series DSLRs. If it hadn't been for the *ist D - I ,for one, would have considered leaving Pentax. Now I'm looking foreward to getting the K10D. I'd peg the Renaissance back to the Zx/Mz line of bodies. The 'retro' styling of the Mz / Zx line was the first thing to get positive momentum for Pentax, after the lost it in the SF / Pz days... - MCC -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mark Cassino Photography Kalamazoo www.markcassino.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
fuckface William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: Norm Baugher Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Bill - this is an argument and you don't know shit. Get over it. Now, let me tell you how flawed you are... Hey moron boy, you forgotto use ALL CAPS. Get with the program or get back on your horse and get out of town. HAR!! William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 22:15:10 -, Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 16/12/06, Adam Maas, discombobulated, unleashed: You'd be shocked how often I get asked if I'm a pro, just because of my (rather small) K100D and 16-45 DA zoom which is my standard carry config. Yeah but Adam, when I'm out working I carry a video camera the size of Scotland and I get asked what newspaper I'm from. When were you last in Scotland? John -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On 12/17/06, Doug Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David Savage wrote: I show my photos now and again to people with no interest in photography, and the most common comment I get is, WOW, you must have a really good camera. That makes me want to scream I had something to do with it too you know, but I just nod and say It's alright There was a thread about this a year or two ago. Someone made the comment that this sort of reaction was along the lines of eating a good meal and complementing the chef on their pots and pans. :-) Har! Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On 17/12/06, David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There was a thread about this a year or two ago. Someone made the comment that this sort of reaction was along the lines of eating a good meal and complementing the chef on their pots and pans. :-) Har! I seem to recall that it was Shel. It's a bit like suggesting that buying a grand piano will make you a concert pianist. -- Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.swiftdsl.com.au/~distudio//publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Nothing like a shiny just polished Hummer H1, parked in the middle of a city. Adam Maas wrote: Same reason they drive a SUV, but never go off-road. It's more impressive. -Adam J. C. O'Connell wrote: If someone is going to buy a DSLR, but it's NOTto use multiple lenses, WHY would they buy a DSLR in the first place? The only answer I can think of is for better image quality and you are not going to get that from a cheap supernormal zoom lens. They would be much better served buying a high end PS cemera with a really good lens on it ( even over a DSLR with a really good supernormal lens on it) because it would be smaller, lighter, and can have a lens system optimized for the sensor without the limitations a reflex system imposes IMHO. To me, the main advantage of an SLR/DSLR is the ability to change lenses to meet the specific requirement. And I dont believe that a supernormal zoom can meet 99% of a typical person's shooting needs. A majority, maybe yes, but 99% NO. And your example of using three primes is not the same as one zoom because primes typically offer way better image quality than cheap zooms do, as well as tyically being smaller and faster than supernormal zooms of the same range. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Cassino Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 12:56 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D I have a good selection of lenses on hand, even after i sold off the ones I bought as 'collectables' a few year ago. In reality, many go unused for months at a time (or longer.) I last used my A* 300 f4 on vacation in July, 2005. I can't remember when I last used the Sigma 14mm f 3.5 or the A* 400 f 2.8. I set aside serious time for photography and try to take a disciplined approach to actively producing images. At the end of the day, a handful of lenses does most of the work, and aside from specialized macro work, a normal prime and standard zoom are the real workhorses. I do a lot of Medium Format shooting with 3 lenses - 55mm to 170. The same focal length range is covered by a 28-80 mm lens in 35mm format, or 18-55mm lens in APS-C format. I'd suspect that for a more casual shooters good normal zoom would fill the bill for 99% of their shooting needs, and the cost / benefit ratio doesn't justify the purchase of a new lens for that 1%. I wouldn't expect the typical DSLR buyer to pony up for more lenses. (Unless they subscribe to this list and get the bug...) IMO - the smart marketing money would be to put a good lens in the kit - sharp, minimal distortion and light falloff, good close focusing - and realize that many people will just use that. Better to have people happy with the results of their kit lens, and giving good feedback about their camera, than giving them a junk lens and hoping they will upgrade. FWIW - I haven't tested the 18-55mm but it seems like a reasonably good lens. Noticeable light fall off and softness in the in the corners wide open, but not bad stopped down to f8 or 11. But that's just a casual observation. - MCC Gonz wrote: Just as I suspected. I'll bet its the same pretty much everywhere. I know of at least 7 people personally in my area with DSLRs, only 1 of them has more than two lenses and one has two. The rest all have 1 lens. The person with more than two is a pdml subscriber so I met him through the list, therefore he almost doesnt count in this quick survey. Most of these people I know bought the camera with a kit lens or bought their own higher end zoom. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Adam Maas Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D That's certainly the case with most buyers of base-model DSLR's, just like it was for base model SLR's back in the days of film. I doubt its 90%, but 70% is probably close. I just talked to the one knowledgable sales person at Don's Photo. She say that 75-80% buy the camera and kit lens and at some point buy a longer zoom , and perhaps 15-20% will eventually buy a second lens, with very a few buying more than that, generally because they have decided they have a specific need or want. This may not be an accurate market indication, just a local snapshot. William Robb -- Things should be made as simple as possible -- but no simpler. --Albert Einstein -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
The answer is they'd be impressing those who think they know about cameras. One of the few lenses I've been complemented on owning is the smc P FA 28-200, but the 43mm Ltd is mostly ignored, which is the better lens? (Not more versatile mind you). Most people, including photographers know little about equipment they're not familiar with. J. C. O'Connell wrote: Who would they be impressing? Certainly not anyone who knows anything about cameras. I would be more impressed seeing a true high end point and shoot then I would seeing an entry level DSLR with a cheap kit lens on it all the time. To each his own I guess jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Maas Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 8:15 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Same reason they drive a SUV, but never go off-road. It's more impressive. -Adam J. C. O'Connell wrote: If someone is going to buy a DSLR, but it's NOT to use multiple lenses, WHY would they buy a DSLR in the first place? The only answer I can think of is for better image quality and you are not going to get that from a cheap supernormal zoom lens. They would be much better served buying a high end PS cemera with a really good lens on it ( even over a DSLR with a really good supernormal lens on it) because it would be smaller, lighter, and can have a lens system optimized for the sensor without the limitations a reflex system imposes IMHO. To me, the main advantage of an SLR/DSLR is the ability to change lenses to meet the specific requirement. And I dont believe that a supernormal zoom can meet 99% of a typical person's shooting needs. A majority, maybe yes, but 99% NO. And your example of using three primes is not the same as one zoom because primes typically offer way better image quality than cheap zooms do, as well as tyically being smaller and faster than supernormal zooms of the same range. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Cassino Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 12:56 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D I have a good selection of lenses on hand, even after i sold off the ones I bought as 'collectables' a few year ago. In reality, many go unused for months at a time (or longer.) I last used my A* 300 f4 on vacation in July, 2005. I can't remember when I last used the Sigma 14mm f 3.5 or the A* 400 f 2.8. I set aside serious time for photography and try to take a disciplined approach to actively producing images. At the end of the day, a handful of lenses does most of the work, and aside from specialized macro work, a normal prime and standard zoom are the real workhorses. I do a lot of Medium Format shooting with 3 lenses - 55mm to 170. The same focal length range is covered by a 28-80 mm lens in 35mm format, or 18-55mm lens in APS-C format. I'd suspect that for a more casual shooters good normal zoom would fill the bill for 99% of their shooting needs, and the cost / benefit ratio doesn't justify the purchase of a new lens for that 1%. I wouldn't expect the typical DSLR buyer to pony up for more lenses. (Unless they subscribe to this list and get the bug...) IMO - the smart marketing money would be to put a good lens in the kit - sharp, minimal distortion and light falloff, good close focusing - and realize that many people will just use that. Better to have people happy with the results of their kit lens, and giving good feedback about their camera, than giving them a junk lens and hoping they will upgrade. FWIW - I haven't tested the 18-55mm but it seems like a reasonably good lens. Noticeable light fall off and softness in the in the corners wide open, but not bad stopped down to f8 or 11. But that's just a casual observation. - MCC Gonz wrote: Just as I suspected. I'll bet its the same pretty much everywhere. I know of at least 7 people personally in my area with DSLRs, only 1 of them has more than two lenses and one has two. The rest all have 1 lens. The person with more than two is a pdml subscriber so I met him through the list, therefore he almost doesnt count in this quick survey. Most of these people I know bought the camera with a kit lens or bought their own higher end zoom. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Adam Maas Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D That's certainly the case with most buyers of base-model DSLR's, just like it was for base model SLR's back in the days of film. I doubt its 90%, but 70% is probably close. I just talked to the one knowledgable sales
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On 12/17/06, Digital Image Studio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 17/12/06, David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There was a thread about this a year or two ago. Someone made the comment that this sort of reaction was along the lines of eating a good meal and complementing the chef on their pots and pans. :-) Har! I seem to recall that it was Shel. It's a bit like suggesting that buying a grand piano will make you a concert pianist. Double Har! Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On 14/12/06, Cory Papenfuss, discombobulated, unleashed: He was planning on a Cannikon since he knew of a fried or two who had one ROTFL Great slip :-)) Still looking for the slip, but it sure was a buggered up sentence. Made sense in my mind's ear when I composted it, I'm sure... :) Well it just stands to reason that Cannikon users are bound to be a little sizzled between the ears if they disregard Pentax as a serious competitor -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On 14/12/06, Mark Roberts, discombobulated, unleashed: Later in the interview, he does give Cotty *some* hope for keeping his chapeau out of his alimentary canal, if only through a loophole regarding the camera name: Q. Considering the naming pattern, is it going to be K1D? A. It's surely a K series camera. K1D could be one candidate but the name may not necessarily be K1D. :-P Talk, schmalk. ;-) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
ROTFL Great slip :-)) Still looking for the slip, but it sure was a buggered up sentence. Made sense in my mind's ear when I composted it, I'm sure... :) Oops... read right over that. Well it just stands to reason that Cannikon users are bound to be a little sizzled between the ears if they disregard Pentax as a serious competitor Yeah... I give Canon 6 months before they introduce in-body anti-shake. I think they'll have to to compete. Given that probably 90% of the DSLR buyers never buy another lens other than the kit lens, it's a great selling point. I think it'll be interesting to see how they back-pedal on justifying it over the much-touted in-lens version. Probably cripple it somehow like they did with AF-indication on MF lenses. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Cory Papenfuss wrote: Yeah... I give Canon 6 months before they introduce in-body anti-shake. I think they'll have to to compete. Given that probably 90% of the DSLR buyers never buy another lens other than the kit lens, it's a great selling point. I think they'll just make all the CKLs (crappy kit lenses) IS from now on. They have one ( the 17-85 USM IS) already. Combine that with the atrocious 70-300 f4-5.6 IS and you have a full range of image-stabilized focal lengths for your average digiRebel user. -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Yeah... I give Canon 6 months before they introduce in-body anti-shake. I think they'll have to to compete. Given that probably 90% of the DSLR buyers never buy another lens other than the kit lens, it's a great selling point. I think they'll just make all the CKLs (crappy kit lenses) IS from now on. They have one ( the 17-85 USM IS) already. Combine that with the atrocious 70-300 f4-5.6 IS and you have a full range of image-stabilized focal lengths for your average digiRebel user. I was unaware that they had mediocre IS lenses I thought they were all pretty much on the decent-good scale. What you propose makes a lot more sense, and is more Canon-esk... force more lens purchases. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Do you really think that 90% of DSLR buyers will never buy another lens? That's crazy! One of the main reasons for using SLRS/DSLRS is to be able to change lenses as needed. In fact the digital point and shoots are now getting so good, some going to bigger sensors, that it wouldnt make sense to even go with a DSLR for those 90% people... jco Yes. I think that a large fraction of people who buy DSLRs never buy another lens. I pulled the percentage out of the air, but I'll bet it's closer to 90% than it is to 10%. Remember... many people buy a DSLR because they've been told it's the best they can buy. They happily put it on Smiley mode and point-n-shoot. Just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean people don't do it. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Do you really think that 90% of DSLR buyers will never buy another lens? That's crazy! One of the main reasons for using SLRS/DSLRS is to be able to change lenses as needed. In fact the digital point and shoots are now getting so good, some going to bigger sensors, that it wouldnt make sense to even go with a DSLR for those 90% people... jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 9:57 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D ROTFL Great slip :-)) Still looking for the slip, but it sure was a buggered up sentence. Made sense in my mind's ear when I composted it, I'm sure... :) Oops... read right over that. Well it just stands to reason that Cannikon users are bound to be a little sizzled between the ears if they disregard Pentax as a serious competitor Yeah... I give Canon 6 months before they introduce in-body anti-shake. I think they'll have to to compete. Given that probably 90% of the DSLR buyers never buy another lens other than the kit lens, it's a great selling point. I think it'll be interesting to see how they back-pedal on justifying it over the much-touted in-lens version. Probably cripple it somehow like they did with AF-indication on MF lenses. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Christian wrote: Cory Papenfuss wrote: Yeah... I give Canon 6 months before they introduce in-body anti-shake. I think they'll have to to compete. Given that probably 90% of the DSLR buyers never buy another lens other than the kit lens, it's a great selling point. I think they'll just make all the CKLs (crappy kit lenses) IS from now on. They have one ( the 17-85 USM IS) already. Combine that with the atrocious 70-300 f4-5.6 IS and you have a full range of image-stabilized focal lengths for your average digiRebel user. The 70-300's actually quite decent, especially on the 1.6x crop bodies, I think you have it mixed up with the 75-300, which is a coke bottle. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Adam Maas wrote: Christian wrote: Cory Papenfuss wrote: Yeah... I give Canon 6 months before they introduce in-body anti-shake. I think they'll have to to compete. Given that probably 90% of the DSLR buyers never buy another lens other than the kit lens, it's a great selling point. I think they'll just make all the CKLs (crappy kit lenses) IS from now on. They have one ( the 17-85 USM IS) already. Combine that with the atrocious 70-300 f4-5.6 IS and you have a full range of image-stabilized focal lengths for your average digiRebel user. The 70-300's actually quite decent, especially on the 1.6x crop bodies, I think you have it mixed up with the 75-300, which is a coke bottle. A friend bought the 70-300 IS and sold it after a couple of days. soft soft SOFT. Aweful lens. The 17-85 IS is supposed to be pretty decent. -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
That's certainly the case with most buyers of base-model DSLR's, just like it was for base model SLR's back in the days of film. I doubt its 90%, but 70% is probably close. Most people are quite willing to pay for capabilities they'll never use or need, just so they can flaunt it. See most SUV and sportscar buyers. -Adam J. C. O'Connell wrote: Do you really think that 90% of DSLR buyers will never buy another lens? That's crazy! One of the main reasons for using SLRS/DSLRS is to be able to change lenses as needed. In fact the digital point and shoots are now getting so good, some going to bigger sensors, that it wouldnt make sense to even go with a DSLR for those 90% people... jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 9:57 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D ROTFL Great slip :-)) Still looking for the slip, but it sure was a buggered up sentence. Made sense in my mind's ear when I composted it, I'm sure... :) Oops... read right over that. Well it just stands to reason that Cannikon users are bound to be a little sizzled between the ears if they disregard Pentax as a serious competitor Yeah... I give Canon 6 months before they introduce in-body anti-shake. I think they'll have to to compete. Given that probably 90% of the DSLR buyers never buy another lens other than the kit lens, it's a great selling point. I think it'll be interesting to see how they back-pedal on justifying it over the much-touted in-lens version. Probably cripple it somehow like they did with AF-indication on MF lenses. -Cory -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On 12/15/06 10:57 AM, Cory Papenfuss, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think they'll just make all the CKLs (crappy kit lenses) IS from now on. They have one ( the 17-85 USM IS) already. Combine that with the atrocious 70-300 f4-5.6 IS and you have a full range of image-stabilized focal lengths for your average digiRebel user. I was unaware that they had mediocre IS lenses I thought they were all pretty much on the decent-good scale. What you propose makes a lot more sense, and is more Canon-esk... force more lens purchases. I bought years ago a couple of those crappy consumer grade IS zooms just to see how they perform (not optically but IS. And I am not really a Canon shooter. I used Canon for film shooting). I kind of liked them, so bought a bit better one, 100-400 IS and got completely turned off by its size. If anybody buy Canon IS, they are good if they are L lenses and perhaps prime telephoto. They are good lenses. But what bothers me most is the fact that already large/heavy lenses become even larger/heavier. Those (L ISs) are good for pros and if I do a lot of telephoto work, I would certainly consider Canikon IS/VR (only long telephotos) just for that range. But now with in-body SR becoming prevalent, Canon IS advantage is rapidly losing its shine. But they still sell film camera and there they have to maintain IS lenses. If they equip more lenses with IS and at much better price, then it is going to be interesting. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Cory Papenfuss wrote: Yeah... I give Canon 6 months before they introduce in-body anti-shake. I think they'll have to to compete. Given that probably 90% of the DSLR buyers never buy another lens other than the kit lens, it's a great selling point. I think they'll just make all the CKLs (crappy kit lenses) IS from now on. They have one ( the 17-85 USM IS) already. Combine that with the atrocious 70-300 f4-5.6 IS and you have a full range of image-stabilized focal lengths for your average digiRebel user. I was unaware that they had mediocre IS lenses I thought they were all pretty much on the decent-good scale. What you propose makes a lot more sense, and is more Canon-esk... force more lens purchases. Canon believe in you get what you pay for. There are very few non L series lenses worth buying (EF-S 10-22, 50/1.7 II, 100/2.8 macro). The low-priced IS lenses, in my direct experience, are crap. That being said, your average digi-rebel user is going to be just fine using them. Anyone trying to make quality, sharp images is going to be extremely frustrated. As an aside, because I shoot very little wide-angle, I bought the Canon EF-S 18-55 CKL (non-USM, non-IS). It really does suck. The 18-35 FAJ I had for the *ist D was many orders of magnitude better. :-) -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On 12/15/06 10:55 AM, Cory Papenfuss, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you really think that 90% of DSLR buyers will never buy another lens? That's crazy! One of the main reasons for using SLRS/DSLRS is to be able to change lenses as needed. In fact the digital point and shoots are now getting so good, some going to bigger sensors, that it wouldnt make sense to even go with a DSLR for those 90% people... jco Yes. I think that a large fraction of people who buy DSLRs never buy another lens. I pulled the percentage out of the air, but I'll bet it's closer to 90% than it is to 10%. Remember... many people buy a DSLR because they've been told it's the best they can buy. They happily put it on Smiley mode and point-n-shoot. Just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean people don't do it. I would disregard 90% and never parts, but believe the statement is generally true. In fact, if you look at sales ranking, the majority of DSLR buyers now are buying Rebel XT and those real entry level kit cameras. I am sure some of them will grow out of entry level and upgrade. I often wonder that this is actually hyped up by camera makers who can no longer make money by PS digicam, and artificially promoting much more profitable DSLR/lens purchase, and innocent entry level buyers are biting into it. As John said, some of today's PS are very good and covering most of popular FL, but a logic is often disregarded in marketing frenzy ;-). Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
You claimed 90% originally, not closer to 90% than 10%. I dont think its anywhere near 90%, I bet the first thing many people do is get rid of the kit lens or buy another that will do what the kit wont because the kit lenses are limited capability and buying SLR/DSLRS is about capabilities. I have a pet peeve about when people always claim somebody else or 90% of the people does this or that, when they don't. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 10:56 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Do you really think that 90% of DSLR buyers will never buy another lens? That's crazy! One of the main reasons for using SLRS/DSLRS is to be able to change lenses as needed. In fact the digital point and shoots are now getting so good, some going to bigger sensors, that it wouldnt make sense to even go with a DSLR for those 90% people... jco Yes. I think that a large fraction of people who buy DSLRs never buy another lens. I pulled the percentage out of the air, but I'll bet it's closer to 90% than it is to 10%. Remember... many people buy a DSLR because they've been told it's the best they can buy. They happily put it on Smiley mode and point-n-shoot. Just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean people don't do it. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
I think your giving the bulk of the current market too much credit. Dave On 12/16/06, J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You claimed 90% originally, not closer to 90% than 10%. I dont think its anywhere near 90%, I bet the first thing many people do is get rid of the kit lens or buy another that will do what the kit wont because the kit lenses are limited capability and buying SLR/DSLRS is about capabilities. I have a pet peeve about when people always claim somebody else or 90% of the people does this or that, when they don't. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 10:56 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Do you really think that 90% of DSLR buyers will never buy another lens? That's crazy! One of the main reasons for using SLRS/DSLRS is to be able to change lenses as needed. In fact the digital point and shoots are now getting so good, some going to bigger sensors, that it wouldnt make sense to even go with a DSLR for those 90% people... jco Yes. I think that a large fraction of people who buy DSLRs never buy another lens. I pulled the percentage out of the air, but I'll bet it's closer to 90% than it is to 10%. Remember... many people buy a DSLR because they've been told it's the best they can buy. They happily put it on Smiley mode and point-n-shoot. Just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean people don't do it. -Cory -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Cory Papenfuss wrote: Yeah... I give Canon 6 months before they introduce in-body anti-shake. I think they'll have to to compete. Given that probably 90% of the DSLR buyers never buy another lens other than the kit lens, it's a great selling point. I think they'll just make all the CKLs (crappy kit lenses) IS from now on. They have one ( the 17-85 USM IS) already. Combine that with the atrocious 70-300 f4-5.6 IS and you have a full range of image-stabilized focal lengths for your average digiRebel user. I was unaware that they had mediocre IS lenses I thought they were all pretty much on the decent-good scale. What you propose makes a lot more sense, and is more Canon-esk... force more lens purchases. -Cory The original IS lens, the 75-300, is a hunk of putrescent crap. Non-L zooms are typically mediocre to poor, the exception being the 28-105 f3.5-4.5 (the f4-5.6 version is craptacular), the 70-300's (good on 1.6x crop bodies, average on film, poor on FF) and the two 'almost L' EF-S zooms, the 10-22 and 17-55 IS. Non-L primes are all over the place, mostly excellent, but there's a few dogs (Same goes for the L line, the 14L in particular is a dog). -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Christian wrote: Adam Maas wrote: Christian wrote: Cory Papenfuss wrote: Yeah... I give Canon 6 months before they introduce in-body anti-shake. I think they'll have to to compete. Given that probably 90% of the DSLR buyers never buy another lens other than the kit lens, it's a great selling point. I think they'll just make all the CKLs (crappy kit lenses) IS from now on. They have one ( the 17-85 USM IS) already. Combine that with the atrocious 70-300 f4-5.6 IS and you have a full range of image-stabilized focal lengths for your average digiRebel user. The 70-300's actually quite decent, especially on the 1.6x crop bodies, I think you have it mixed up with the 75-300, which is a coke bottle. A friend bought the 70-300 IS and sold it after a couple of days. soft soft SOFT. Aweful lens. The 17-85 IS is supposed to be pretty decent. Probably a bad copy. Canon consumer lenses don't have the greatest QC. I've seen examples of that lens that are absolutely superb on the cropped bodies (They aren't that great on the FF bodies, poor corner performance). The 17-85 has average optics, comparable to the 28-135 it is the equivalent of. Inferior to the 16-45 DA from the examples I've seen/used. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On Dec 15, 2006, at 7:55 AM, Cory Papenfuss wrote: ... I think that a large fraction of people who buy DSLRs never buy another lens. ... I think this has always been the case. I know quite a few people who have been taking pictures with SLRs since the 1970s and never bought anything but the normal lens, or standard zoom when that became the vogue. Are they missing out on something? I dunno. Some of them take superb photographs. What is important, lots of lenses or lots of good photographs? As time goes on, I find myself using fewer and fewer lenses again. I was pretty happy with just the three lenses I carried to the UK this year, have a very high percentage of keepers with just the DA21, FA35 and FA77. And more than half of what I took were taken with the DA21... G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On Fri, Dec 15, 2006 at 10:23:19AM -0500, Christian wrote: Cory Papenfuss wrote: Yeah... I give Canon 6 months before they introduce in-body anti-shake. I think they'll have to to compete. Given that probably 90% of the DSLR buyers never buy another lens other than the kit lens, it's a great selling point. I think they'll just make all the CKLs (crappy kit lenses) IS from now on. They have one ( the 17-85 USM IS) already. That's the only short IS lens I've used (on a 20D) I wouldn't call it a CKL. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
I simply dont agree on this. Times have changed since the 70's when SLRS were MAINSTREAM cameras, as AF point and shooters nearly completely took over the mainstream camera market in the 80's. I really dont think today's DSLR buyer is typically going to never buy anything but the original kit lens. SLR/DSLR buyers TODAY are not even remotely close to the mainstream camera buyers ( much more sophisticated than a typical mainstream PS'er) IMHO. Whatever, well at least that's my opinion of the matter, jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Godfrey DiGiorgi Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 12:37 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D On Dec 15, 2006, at 7:55 AM, Cory Papenfuss wrote: ... I think that a large fraction of people who buy DSLRs never buy another lens. ... I think this has always been the case. I know quite a few people who have been taking pictures with SLRs since the 1970s and never bought anything but the normal lens, or standard zoom when that became the vogue. Are they missing out on something? I dunno. Some of them take superb photographs. What is important, lots of lenses or lots of good photographs? As time goes on, I find myself using fewer and fewer lenses again. I was pretty happy with just the three lenses I carried to the UK this year, have a very high percentage of keepers with just the DA21, FA35 and FA77. And more than half of what I took were taken with the DA21... G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Not only that, the proof can be seen in ebay. Just look at all the film SLRs being sold with a normal 50mm 2.0 lens. I would wager that DSLRs are no different. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think your giving the bulk of the current market too much credit. Dave On 12/16/06, J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You claimed 90% originally, not closer to 90% than 10%. I dont think its anywhere near 90%, I bet the first thing many people do is get rid of the kit lens or buy another that will do what the kit wont because the kit lenses are limited capability and buying SLR/DSLRS is about capabilities. I have a pet peeve about when people always claim somebody else or 90% of the people does this or that, when they don't. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 10:56 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Do you really think that 90% of DSLR buyers will never buy another lens? That's crazy! One of the main reasons for using SLRS/DSLRS is to be able to change lenses as needed. In fact the digital point and shoots are now getting so good, some going to bigger sensors, that it wouldnt make sense to even go with a DSLR for those 90% people... jco Yes. I think that a large fraction of people who buy DSLRs never buy another lens. I pulled the percentage out of the air, but I'll bet it's closer to 90% than it is to 10%. Remember... many people buy a DSLR because they've been told it's the best they can buy. They happily put it on Smiley mode and point-n-shoot. Just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean people don't do it. -Cory -- Someone handed me a picture and said, This is a picture of me when I was younger. Every picture of you is when you were younger. ...Here's a picture of me when I'm older. Where'd you get that camera man? - Mitch Hedberg -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Curious, do all canon non FF DSLRS have the same crop factor and is canon now offering digital non FF lenses that only cover the smaller than FF sensors like Pentax is? jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Maas Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 12:50 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Cory Papenfuss wrote: Yeah... I give Canon 6 months before they introduce in-body anti-shake. I think they'll have to to compete. Given that probably 90% of the DSLR buyers never buy another lens other than the kit lens, it's a great selling point. I think they'll just make all the CKLs (crappy kit lenses) IS from now on. They have one ( the 17-85 USM IS) already. Combine that with the atrocious 70-300 f4-5.6 IS and you have a full range of image-stabilized focal lengths for your average digiRebel user. I was unaware that they had mediocre IS lenses I thought they were all pretty much on the decent-good scale. What you propose makes a lot more sense, and is more Canon-esk... force more lens purchases. -Cory The original IS lens, the 75-300, is a hunk of putrescent crap. Non-L zooms are typically mediocre to poor, the exception being the 28-105 f3.5-4.5 (the f4-5.6 version is craptacular), the 70-300's (good on 1.6x crop bodies, average on film, poor on FF) and the two 'almost L' EF-S zooms, the 10-22 and 17-55 IS. Non-L primes are all over the place, mostly excellent, but there's a few dogs (Same goes for the L line, the 14L in particular is a dog). -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
You claimed 90% originally, not closer to 90% than 10%. I dont think its anywhere near 90%, I bet the first thing many people do is get rid of the kit lens or buy another that will do what the kit wont because the kit lenses are limited capability and buying SLR/DSLRS is about capabilities. I have a pet peeve about when people always claim somebody else or 90% of the people does this or that, when they don't. jco - I never professed to have hard numbers. - I qualified my statements leaving them vague enough with plenty of I think and I'll bet. - I think in terms of orders of magnitude... 90%, 60%, 40%, are basically the same IMO. - I will not attempt to argue with you about something that neither of us have numbers on. I know your opinion cannot be swayed by anyone elses... including when facts might be involved (there are none here, BTW) I was posting more about a trend in consumerism to buy much more capability than they need and ever use rather than an actual number. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Nope, I say wrong, see my last post regarding this, SLRS were mainstream cameras in the 70's market, DSLRS are not even remotely mainsteam in 2006 camera market. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gonz Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 1:44 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Not only that, the proof can be seen in ebay. Just look at all the film SLRs being sold with a normal 50mm 2.0 lens. I would wager that DSLRs are no different. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think your giving the bulk of the current market too much credit. Dave On 12/16/06, J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You claimed 90% originally, not closer to 90% than 10%. I dont think its anywhere near 90%, I bet the first thing many people do is get rid of the kit lens or buy another that will do what the kit wont because the kit lenses are limited capability and buying SLR/DSLRS is about capabilities. I have a pet peeve about when people always claim somebody else or 90% of the people does this or that, when they don't. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 10:56 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Do you really think that 90% of DSLR buyers will never buy another lens? That's crazy! One of the main reasons for using SLRS/DSLRS is to be able to change lenses as needed. In fact the digital point and shoots are now getting so good, some going to bigger sensors, that it wouldnt make sense to even go with a DSLR for those 90% people... jco Yes. I think that a large fraction of people who buy DSLRs never buy another lens. I pulled the percentage out of the air, but I'll bet it's closer to 90% than it is to 10%. Remember... many people buy a DSLR because they've been told it's the best they can buy. They happily put it on Smiley mode and point-n-shoot. Just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean people don't do it. -Cory -- Someone handed me a picture and said, This is a picture of me when I was younger. Every picture of you is when you were younger. ...Here's a picture of me when I'm older. Where'd you get that camera man? - Mitch Hedberg -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Canon offers FF (1Ds series, 5D), 1.3x crop (the 1D series high fps bodies) and 1.6x crop (Digital Rebels, 30D and antescendants). EF-S lenses are for the 1.6x cropped bodies from the original Digital Rebel on, earlier 1.6x crop bodies cannot use them as they are mechanically incompatible with plain EF mount bodies (EF-S bodies can mount EF-S lenses, but EF-S lenses do not mount on EF bodies). -Adam J. C. O'Connell wrote: Curious, do all canon non FF DSLRS have the same crop factor and is canon now offering digital non FF lenses that only cover the smaller than FF sensors like Pentax is? jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Maas Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 12:50 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Cory Papenfuss wrote: Yeah... I give Canon 6 months before they introduce in-body anti-shake. I think they'll have to to compete. Given that probably 90% of the DSLR buyers never buy another lens other than the kit lens, it's a great selling point. I think they'll just make all the CKLs (crappy kit lenses) IS from now on. They have one ( the 17-85 USM IS) already. Combine that with the atrocious 70-300 f4-5.6 IS and you have a full range of image-stabilized focal lengths for your average digiRebel user. I was unaware that they had mediocre IS lenses I thought they were all pretty much on the decent-good scale. What you propose makes a lot more sense, and is more Canon-esk... force more lens purchases. -Cory The original IS lens, the 75-300, is a hunk of putrescent crap. Non-L zooms are typically mediocre to poor, the exception being the 28-105 f3.5-4.5 (the f4-5.6 version is craptacular), the 70-300's (good on 1.6x crop bodies, average on film, poor on FF) and the two 'almost L' EF-S zooms, the 10-22 and 17-55 IS. Non-L primes are all over the place, mostly excellent, but there's a few dogs (Same goes for the L line, the 14L in particular is a dog). -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
J. C. O'Connell wrote: Curious, do all canon non FF DSLRS have the same crop factor no and is canon now offering digital non FF lenses that only cover the smaller than FF sensors like Pentax is? Yes, EF-S is the designation and they work on the 20D, 30D and digi-rebel series cameras. -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
90% is basically the same as 40% ?? gimme a break, please.thats like almost all vs. mostly no. Much closer to opposite than the same meanings. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 1:41 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D You claimed 90% originally, not closer to 90% than 10%. I dont think its anywhere near 90%, I bet the first thing many people do is get rid of the kit lens or buy another that will do what the kit wont because the kit lenses are limited capability and buying SLR/DSLRS is about capabilities. I have a pet peeve about when people always claim somebody else or 90% of the people does this or that, when they don't. jco - I never professed to have hard numbers. - I qualified my statements leaving them vague enough with plenty of I think and I'll bet. - I think in terms of orders of magnitude... 90%, 60%, 40%, are basically the same IMO. - I will not attempt to argue with you about something that neither of us have numbers on. I know your opinion cannot be swayed by anyone elses... including when facts might be involved (there are none here, BTW) I was posting more about a trend in consumerism to buy much more capability than they need and ever use rather than an actual number. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, J. C. O'Connell wrote: 90% is basically the same as 40% ?? gimme a break, please.thats like almost all vs. mostly no. Much closer to opposite than the same meanings. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 1:41 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D 90% is only 3.5 dB more than 40% that's basically within measurement error of lots of engineering problems that I work with every day. Not everyone thinks linearly, but whatever floats your 'scope... -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
- Original Message - From: Godfrey DiGiorgi Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D And more than half of what I took were taken with the DA21... The Don enabled me with a 21 this very morning. I would probably have resisted, but for your recommendations It looks like a sweet lens, but you, Godders, my dear, good friend, are now one of those rat bastards conspiring to keep my wallet empty G. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Cory Papenfuss wrote: Yes. I think that a large fraction of people who buy DSLRs never buy another lens. I pulled the percentage out of the air, but I'll bet it's closer to 90% than it is to 10%. Remember... many people buy a DSLR because they've been told it's the best they can buy. They happily put it on Smiley mode and point-n-shoot. Just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean people don't do it. I don't know if the one lens digirebel group is as big as 90% but I'll bet the percentage that never buys more than one *additional* lens (which is usually a 75-300 cheapo) is *over* 90%. I teach this stuff, I know these people ;) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
thanks, that makes sense. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Maas Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 2:03 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Canon offers FF (1Ds series, 5D), 1.3x crop (the 1D series high fps bodies) and 1.6x crop (Digital Rebels, 30D and antescendants). EF-S lenses are for the 1.6x cropped bodies from the original Digital Rebel on, earlier 1.6x crop bodies cannot use them as they are mechanically incompatible with plain EF mount bodies (EF-S bodies can mount EF-S lenses, but EF-S lenses do not mount on EF bodies). -Adam J. C. O'Connell wrote: Curious, do all canon non FF DSLRS have the same crop factor and is canon now offering digital non FF lenses that only cover the smaller than FF sensors like Pentax is? jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Maas Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 12:50 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Cory Papenfuss wrote: Yeah... I give Canon 6 months before they introduce in-body anti-shake. I think they'll have to to compete. Given that probably 90% of the DSLR buyers never buy another lens other than the kit lens, it's a great selling point. I think they'll just make all the CKLs (crappy kit lenses) IS from now on. They have one ( the 17-85 USM IS) already. Combine that with the atrocious 70-300 f4-5.6 IS and you have a full range of image-stabilized focal lengths for your average digiRebel user. I was unaware that they had mediocre IS lenses I thought they were all pretty much on the decent-good scale. What you propose makes a lot more sense, and is more Canon-esk... force more lens purchases. -Cory The original IS lens, the 75-300, is a hunk of putrescent crap. Non-L zooms are typically mediocre to poor, the exception being the 28-105 f3.5-4.5 (the f4-5.6 version is craptacular), the 70-300's (good on 1.6x crop bodies, average on film, poor on FF) and the two 'almost L' EF-S zooms, the 10-22 and 17-55 IS. Non-L primes are all over the place, mostly excellent, but there's a few dogs (Same goes for the L line, the 14L in particular is a dog). -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
I am involved in engineering everday for over 25 years and I have never heard anything as silly in my entire life when comparing these type things. Logrithmic measurements are for things that function or are perceived logrithmically and this certainly isnt one of them. 90% of all buyer's is within 3.5 dB of 40% of all buyers? Your simply out of your mind dude. I suppose you pay sales tax at +0.5 dB on the dollar? INSANITY ALERT! jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 2:09 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, J. C. O'Connell wrote: 90% is basically the same as 40% ?? gimme a break, please.thats like almost all vs. mostly no. Much closer to opposite than the same meanings. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 1:41 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D 90% is only 3.5 dB more than 40% that's basically within measurement error of lots of engineering problems that I work with every day. Not everyone thinks linearly, but whatever floats your 'scope... -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
- Original Message - From: Adam Maas Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D That's certainly the case with most buyers of base-model DSLR's, just like it was for base model SLR's back in the days of film. I doubt its 90%, but 70% is probably close. I just talked to the one knowledgable sales person at Don's Photo. She say that 75-80% buy the camera and kit lens and at some point buy a longer zoom , and perhaps 15-20% will eventually buy a second lens, with very a few buying more than that, generally because they have decided they have a specific need or want. This may not be an accurate market indication, just a local snapshot. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On Dec 15, 2006, at 11:20 AM, William Robb wrote: And more than half of what I took were taken with the DA21... The Don enabled me with a 21 this very morning. I would probably have resisted, but for your recommendations It looks like a sweet lens, but you, Godders, my dear, good friend, are now one of those rat bastards conspiring to keep my wallet empty G. Well, you know what they say: We boggies evolved on the long line that led from rats to wolverines and eventually to Sicilians. ];-) I hope you enjoy the lens as much as I do. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Just as I suspected. I'll bet its the same pretty much everywhere. I know of at least 7 people personally in my area with DSLRs, only 1 of them has more than two lenses and one has two. The rest all have 1 lens. The person with more than two is a pdml subscriber so I met him through the list, therefore he almost doesnt count in this quick survey. Most of these people I know bought the camera with a kit lens or bought their own higher end zoom. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Adam Maas Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D That's certainly the case with most buyers of base-model DSLR's, just like it was for base model SLR's back in the days of film. I doubt its 90%, but 70% is probably close. I just talked to the one knowledgable sales person at Don's Photo. She say that 75-80% buy the camera and kit lens and at some point buy a longer zoom , and perhaps 15-20% will eventually buy a second lens, with very a few buying more than that, generally because they have decided they have a specific need or want. This may not be an accurate market indication, just a local snapshot. William Robb -- Someone handed me a picture and said, This is a picture of me when I was younger. Every picture of you is when you were younger. ...Here's a picture of me when I'm older. Where'd you get that camera man? - Mitch Hedberg -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
William Robb wrote: From: Adam Maas I just talked to the one knowledgable sales person at Don's Photo. She say that 75-80% buy the camera and kit lens and at some point buy a longer zoom , and perhaps 15-20% will eventually buy a second lens, with very a few buying more than that, generally because they have decided they have a specific need or want. This may not be an accurate market indication, just a local snapshot. And since you're dealing with an actual photographic specialty retailer you are getting a much more knowledgeable clientèle than where the majority of DSLR's are purchased these days :( -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
This whole argument is seriously flawed because it assumes that a buyer would return to the the same vendor who sold the the kit when buying extra lenses later or even at the same time of initial purchase. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gonz Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 4:06 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Just as I suspected. I'll bet its the same pretty much everywhere. I know of at least 7 people personally in my area with DSLRs, only 1 of them has more than two lenses and one has two. The rest all have 1 lens. The person with more than two is a pdml subscriber so I met him through the list, therefore he almost doesnt count in this quick survey. Most of these people I know bought the camera with a kit lens or bought their own higher end zoom. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Adam Maas Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D That's certainly the case with most buyers of base-model DSLR's, just like it was for base model SLR's back in the days of film. I doubt its 90%, but 70% is probably close. I just talked to the one knowledgable sales person at Don's Photo. She say that 75-80% buy the camera and kit lens and at some point buy a longer zoom , and perhaps 15-20% will eventually buy a second lens, with very a few buying more than that, generally because they have decided they have a specific need or want. This may not be an accurate market indication, just a local snapshot. William Robb -- Someone handed me a picture and said, This is a picture of me when I was younger. Every picture of you is when you were younger. ...Here's a picture of me when I'm older. Where'd you get that camera man? - Mitch Hedberg -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
- Original Message - From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D I just talked to the one knowledgable sales person at Don's Photo. She say that 75-80% buy the camera and kit lens and at some point buy a longer zoom , and perhaps 15-20% will eventually buy a second lens, with very a few buying more than that, generally because they have decided they have a specific need or want. This may not be an accurate market indication, just a local snapshot. And since you're dealing with an actual photographic specialty retailer you are getting a much more knowledgeable clientèle than where the majority of DSLR's are purchased these days :( Gads, I hadn't thought about that. I wonder if the extra lens % is brought down by the big box shoppers. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
- Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D This whole argument is seriously flawed because it assumes that a buyer would return to the the same vendor who sold the the kit when buying extra lenses later or even at the same time of initial purchase. Its not an arguement, it's a discussion. Where I am, there is only one brick and mortar vendor. Before the internet, I sold cameras for a living, what Melinda told me today matches what i recall from my selling days. John, you are trying to make an argument where non exists, using wild guess work and presumptions to support an untenable position against people who have first hand knowledge about what they are talking about. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
I almost added the 21 to the purchase of the K10 last night. May be in Jan Dave Quoting Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Dec 15, 2006, at 11:20 AM, William Robb wrote: And more than half of what I took were taken with the DA21... The Don enabled me with a 21 this very morning. I would probably have resisted, but for your recommendations It looks like a sweet lens, but you, Godders, my dear, good friend, are now one of those rat bastards conspiring to keep my wallet empty G. Well, you know what they say: We boggies evolved on the long line that led from rats to wolverines and eventually to Sicilians. ];-) I hope you enjoy the lens as much as I do. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net Equine Photography in York Region -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Quoting J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I suppose you pay sales tax at +0.5 dB on the dollar? INSANITY ALERT! jco Only in Ontario and Quebec. Albera and Sakatchewan have GST but no DBST Dave(getting tired of the JCO crap)Brooks Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 2:09 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, J. C. O'Connell wrote: 90% is basically the same as 40% ?? gimme a break, please.thats like almost all vs. mostly no. Much closer to opposite than the same meanings. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 1:41 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D 90% is only 3.5 dB more than 40% that's basically within measurement error of lots of engineering problems that I work with every day. Not everyone thinks linearly, but whatever floats your 'scope... -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net Equine Photography in York Region -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
What no green button' Dave Quoting J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED]: thanks, that makes sense. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Maas Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 2:03 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Canon offers FF (1Ds series, 5D), 1.3x crop (the 1D series high fps bodies) and 1.6x crop (Digital Rebels, 30D and antescendants). EF-S lenses are for the 1.6x cropped bodies from the original Digital Rebel on, earlier 1.6x crop bodies cannot use them as they are mechanically incompatible with plain EF mount bodies (EF-S bodies can mount EF-S lenses, but EF-S lenses do not mount on EF bodies). -Adam J. C. O'Connell wrote: Curious, do all canon non FF DSLRS have the same crop factor and is canon now offering digital non FF lenses that only cover the smaller than FF sensors like Pentax is? jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Maas Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 12:50 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Cory Papenfuss wrote: Yeah... I give Canon 6 months before they introduce in-body anti-shake. I think they'll have to to compete. Given that probably 90% of the DSLR buyers never buy another lens other than the kit lens, it's a great selling point. I think they'll just make all the CKLs (crappy kit lenses) IS from now on. They have one ( the 17-85 USM IS) already. Combine that with the atrocious 70-300 f4-5.6 IS and you have a full range of image-stabilized focal lengths for your average digiRebel user. I was unaware that they had mediocre IS lenses I thought they were all pretty much on the decent-good scale. What you propose makes a lot more sense, and is more Canon-esk... force more lens purchases. -Cory The original IS lens, the 75-300, is a hunk of putrescent crap. Non-L zooms are typically mediocre to poor, the exception being the 28-105 f3.5-4.5 (the f4-5.6 version is craptacular), the 70-300's (good on 1.6x crop bodies, average on film, poor on FF) and the two 'almost L' EF-S zooms, the 10-22 and 17-55 IS. Non-L primes are all over the place, mostly excellent, but there's a few dogs (Same goes for the L line, the 14L in particular is a dog). -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net Equine Photography in York Region -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
I was going to buy the 21 with the K10D, but ordered it early when I figured there might be a run on Pentax lenses when the K10D appeared. I'm happy I did so. :-) G On Dec 15, 2006, at 4:07 PM, David J Brooks wrote: I almost added the 21 to the purchase of the K10 last night. May be in Jan -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
WRONG- I just disagreed with the absurd IMHO 90% of DSLR buyers will never buy anything more than the original kit lens comments and the even more absurd arguments to support it as being the truth. NOTE: When I use the word argument, I mean it in the legal sense, a calm logical discussion of proof, not like a fight. And what was going on a in the past is not what's going on today. DSLR buyers are not like SLR buyers of yesteryear. They are more advanced photo enthusiasts than the SLR buyers of the 70's ever were. BACK THEN there was no such thing as a PS market like there is today and the PS market dominates even after the switch from PS film to PS digital. I simply do not agree with the numbers or with the arguments presented to support the numbers. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William Robb Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 5:31 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D This whole argument is seriously flawed because it assumes that a buyer would return to the the same vendor who sold the the kit when buying extra lenses later or even at the same time of initial purchase. Its not an arguement, it's a discussion. Where I am, there is only one brick and mortar vendor. Before the internet, I sold cameras for a living, what Melinda told me today matches what i recall from my selling days. John, you are trying to make an argument where non exists, using wild guess work and presumptions to support an untenable position against people who have first hand knowledge about what they are talking about. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On 12/16/06, William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Godfrey DiGiorgi Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D And more than half of what I took were taken with the DA21... The Don enabled me with a 21 this very morning. I would probably have resisted, but for your recommendations It looks like a sweet lens, but you, Godders, my dear, good friend, are now one of those rat bastards conspiring to keep my wallet empty G. A recent shot of yours Bill did the same to me. Although I have to wait a month or so. Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
my crap? Did you read that post? 90% of a group of people is the same as 40% because its only a 3.5 dB difference and said with a straight face! Thats crapola of the highest magnitude possible. INSANE if serious... jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David J Brooks Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 7:11 PM To: pdml@pdml.net Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Quoting J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I suppose you pay sales tax at +0.5 dB on the dollar? INSANITY ALERT! jco Only in Ontario and Quebec. Albera and Sakatchewan have GST but no DBST Dave(getting tired of the JCO crap)Brooks Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 2:09 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, J. C. O'Connell wrote: 90% is basically the same as 40% ?? gimme a break, please.thats like almost all vs. mostly no. Much closer to opposite than the same meanings. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 1:41 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D 90% is only 3.5 dB more than 40% that's basically within measurement error of lots of engineering problems that I work with every day. Not everyone thinks linearly, but whatever floats your 'scope... -Cory -- ** ** * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net Equine Photography in York Region -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
I have a good selection of lenses on hand, even after i sold off the ones I bought as 'collectables' a few year ago. In reality, many go unused for months at a time (or longer.) I last used my A* 300 f4 on vacation in July, 2005. I can't remember when I last used the Sigma 14mm f 3.5 or the A* 400 f 2.8. I set aside serious time for photography and try to take a disciplined approach to actively producing images. At the end of the day, a handful of lenses does most of the work, and aside from specialized macro work, a normal prime and standard zoom are the real workhorses. I do a lot of Medium Format shooting with 3 lenses - 55mm to 170. The same focal length range is covered by a 28-80 mm lens in 35mm format, or 18-55mm lens in APS-C format. I'd suspect that for a more casual shooters good normal zoom would fill the bill for 99% of their shooting needs, and the cost / benefit ratio doesn't justify the purchase of a new lens for that 1%. I wouldn't expect the typical DSLR buyer to pony up for more lenses. (Unless they subscribe to this list and get the bug...) IMO - the smart marketing money would be to put a good lens in the kit - sharp, minimal distortion and light falloff, good close focusing - and realize that many people will just use that. Better to have people happy with the results of their kit lens, and giving good feedback about their camera, than giving them a junk lens and hoping they will upgrade. FWIW - I haven't tested the 18-55mm but it seems like a reasonably good lens. Noticeable light fall off and softness in the in the corners wide open, but not bad stopped down to f8 or 11. But that's just a casual observation. - MCC Gonz wrote: Just as I suspected. I'll bet its the same pretty much everywhere. I know of at least 7 people personally in my area with DSLRs, only 1 of them has more than two lenses and one has two. The rest all have 1 lens. The person with more than two is a pdml subscriber so I met him through the list, therefore he almost doesnt count in this quick survey. Most of these people I know bought the camera with a kit lens or bought their own higher end zoom. rg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Adam Maas Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D That's certainly the case with most buyers of base-model DSLR's, just like it was for base model SLR's back in the days of film. I doubt its 90%, but 70% is probably close. I just talked to the one knowledgable sales person at Don's Photo. She say that 75-80% buy the camera and kit lens and at some point buy a longer zoom , and perhaps 15-20% will eventually buy a second lens, with very a few buying more than that, generally because they have decided they have a specific need or want. This may not be an accurate market indication, just a local snapshot. William Robb -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mark Cassino Photography Kalamazoo www.markcassino.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
- Original Message - From: David J Brooks Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Albera and Sakatchewan have GST but no DBST I wish. We have a thing called the EH tax, which gets lowered a bit before an election campaign,then raised after the NDP wins again. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Fuckface, this is where you get off the train. Piss off now. William Robb - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D WRONG- I just disagreed with the absurd IMHO 90% of DSLR buyers will never buy anything more than the original kit lens comments and the even more absurd arguments to support it as being the truth. NOTE: When I use the word argument, I mean it in the legal sense, a calm logical discussion of proof, not like a fight. And what was going on a in the past is not what's going on today. DSLR buyers are not like SLR buyers of yesteryear. They are more advanced photo enthusiasts than the SLR buyers of the 70's ever were. BACK THEN there was no such thing as a PS market like there is today and the PS market dominates even after the switch from PS film to PS digital. I simply do not agree with the numbers or with the arguments presented to support the numbers. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William Robb Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 5:31 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell Subject: RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D This whole argument is seriously flawed because it assumes that a buyer would return to the the same vendor who sold the the kit when buying extra lenses later or even at the same time of initial purchase. Its not an arguement, it's a discussion. Where I am, there is only one brick and mortar vendor. Before the internet, I sold cameras for a living, what Melinda told me today matches what i recall from my selling days. John, you are trying to make an argument where non exists, using wild guess work and presumptions to support an untenable position against people who have first hand knowledge about what they are talking about. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
OK, make that 85%. J. C. O'Connell wrote: Do you really think that 90% of DSLR buyers will never buy another lens? That's crazy! One of the main reasons for using SLRS/DSLRS is to be able to change lenses as needed. In fact the digital point and shoots are now getting so good, some going to bigger sensors, that it wouldnt make sense to even go with a DSLR for those 90% people... jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 9:57 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D ROTFL Great slip :-)) Still looking for the slip, but it sure was a buggered up sentence. Made sense in my mind's ear when I composted it, I'm sure... :) Oops... read right over that. Well it just stands to reason that Cannikon users are bound to be a little sizzled between the ears if they disregard Pentax as a serious competitor Yeah... I give Canon 6 months before they introduce in-body anti-shake. I think they'll have to to compete. Given that probably 90% of the DSLR buyers never buy another lens other than the kit lens, it's a great selling point. I think it'll be interesting to see how they back-pedal on justifying it over the much-touted in-lens version. Probably cripple it somehow like they did with AF-indication on MF lenses. -Cory -- Things should be made as simple as possible -- but no simpler. --Albert Einstein -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On 12/14/06, Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 13/12/06, Mark Roberts, discombobulated, unleashed: Very enthusiastic user report: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/pentax-10D.shtml Interesting, thanks for posting. K1D just gone from 99% myth to about 75% myth for me. Let's see what a couple of years brings. Fresh pepper with your hat sir? :-) Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Indeed, makes me want that camera. The 1600 iso city sample shows some banding in the blue channel. (hold the mouse over it). Is that the stripes at high iso some are talking about? greetings Markus -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mark Roberts Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 2:49 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D Very enthusiastic user report: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/pentax-10D.shtml -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On 12/14/06, Markus Maurer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Indeed, makes me want that camera. The 1600 iso city sample shows some banding in the blue channel. (hold the mouse over it). Is that the stripes at high iso some are talking about? greetings Yes. Dave Mark Roberts Very enthusiastic user report: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/pentax-10D.shtml -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Digital Image Studio wrote: On 14/12/06, Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very enthusiastic user report: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/pentax-10D.shtml It's an interesting report, the bottom line of which MR hopes that some of Pentax's technical innovations will spur on Canon et al to build better cameras ;-) Indeed: As a Canon user I can only wish that the folks at Canon's marketing and engineering department have a close look at some of the more innovative features offered by Pentax in this new model. With DNG, post exposure JPG processing, and auto-ISO with limit setting, Pentax now offers one of the most innovative feature sets to be found on any DSLR. It looks like the big boys are going to have to start playing catch-up. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On 14/12/06, Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very enthusiastic user report: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/pentax-10D.shtml It's an interesting report, the bottom line of which MR hopes that some of Pentax's technical innovations will spur on Canon et al to build better cameras ;-) Indeed: As a Canon user I can only wish that the folks at Canon's marketing and engineering department have a close look at some of the more innovative features offered by Pentax in this new model. With DNG, post exposure JPG processing, and auto-ISO with limit setting, Pentax now offers one of the most innovative feature sets to be found on any DSLR. It looks like the big boys are going to have to start playing catch-up. I really find it curious that very few people even know that a Pentax DSLR exists. A friend of mine here at 'Tech was looking to get a DSLR the other day when he came by to ask me about camera stuff. He was planning on a Cannikon since he knew of a fried or two who had one. While *trying* to be impartial and not discourage any particular brand, the SR, cost, backwards lens compatibility, and AA-batteries sold him on a K100D over all others. His order came in yesterday and I played with it a bit. I'm gonna have to get me one of them thar SR Pentax's... :) I hope that with the K100D and the K10D and all of it's fairly innovative features, they'll get a bit more press and customers. Now if only I could get my logarithmic RGB histogram and aperture coupler... :) -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
I hope to see a K1D in 1 - 2 years if the 645D doesn't take off or kill Pentax when it fails. Cotty wrote: On 13/12/06, Mark Roberts, discombobulated, unleashed: Very enthusiastic user report: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/pentax-10D.shtml Interesting, thanks for posting. K1D just gone from 99% myth to about 75% myth for me. Let's see what a couple of years brings. -- Things should be made as simple as possible -- but no simpler. --Albert Einstein -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Pentax has a problem with name recognition especially with those who're new, (less than ten years of experience), to photography, or so it seems. Cory Papenfuss wrote: On 14/12/06, Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very enthusiastic user report: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/pentax-10D.shtml It's an interesting report, the bottom line of which MR hopes that some of Pentax's technical innovations will spur on Canon et al to build better cameras ;-) Indeed: As a Canon user I can only wish that the folks at Canon's marketing and engineering department have a close look at some of the more innovative features offered by Pentax in this new model. With DNG, post exposure JPG processing, and auto-ISO with limit setting, Pentax now offers one of the most innovative feature sets to be found on any DSLR. It looks like the big boys are going to have to start playing catch-up. I really find it curious that very few people even know that a Pentax DSLR exists. A friend of mine here at 'Tech was looking to get a DSLR the other day when he came by to ask me about camera stuff. He was planning on a Cannikon since he knew of a fried or two who had one. While *trying* to be impartial and not discourage any particular brand, the SR, cost, backwards lens compatibility, and AA-batteries sold him on a K100D over all others. His order came in yesterday and I played with it a bit. I'm gonna have to get me one of them thar SR Pentax's... :) I hope that with the K100D and the K10D and all of it's fairly innovative features, they'll get a bit more press and customers. Now if only I could get my logarithmic RGB histogram and aperture coupler... :) -Cory -- Things should be made as simple as possible -- but no simpler. --Albert Einstein -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On Thu, Dec 14, 2006 at 09:27:35AM -0500, Cory Papenfuss wrote: I hope that with the K100D and the K10D and all of it's fairly innovative features, they'll get a bit more press and customers. Now if only I could get my logarithmic RGB histogram and aperture coupler... :) I think a logarithmic histogram would be a really useful tool, but I'm afraid that the linear histogram is too deeply embedded in the photographic consciousness. Unless you could get someone such as Adobe to switch to it in their software there's too much risk of confusion by showing a histogram that isn't like anyone else. I'm not going to touch the other item with a 10-foot pole ... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
I think a logarithmic histogram would be a really useful tool, but I'm afraid that the linear histogram is too deeply embedded in the photographic consciousness. Unless you could get someone such as Adobe to switch to it in their software there's too much risk of confusion by showing a histogram that isn't like anyone else. I use Gimp for much of my processing and ufraw for some of my raw conversions. They both provide the option of linear or log histogram. Really irritates me for shots of the moon or stars or other night with small light shots... can't tell when they're blown out. Would have been nice when I was flying alongside Chicago as well: http://www.ee.vt.edu/~mythtv/imgp6043_WB_USM.jpg I wanted to expose for the lights, but I could make out nothing on the (linear) histogram except the thin black line on the left from all the dark stuff. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On 14/12/06, Cory Papenfuss, discombobulated, unleashed: He was planning on a Cannikon since he knew of a fried or two who had one ROTFL Great slip :-)) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
On 14/12/06, P. J. Alling, discombobulated, unleashed: I hope to see a K1D in 1 - 2 years if the 645D doesn't take off or kill Pentax when it fails. It's obvious to me that the 645D *is* the K1D -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
He was planning on a Cannikon since he knew of a fried or two who had one ROTFL Great slip :-)) Still looking for the slip, but it sure was a buggered up sentence. Made sense in my mind's ear when I composted it, I'm sure... :) -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Cotty wrote: On 14/12/06, Cory Papenfuss, discombobulated, unleashed: He was planning on a Cannikon since he knew of a fried or two who had one ROTFL Great slip :-)) Yeah, you'd have to be fried to go for one of those things! :-P -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
No, there have been times when Pentax has spoken of both a flagship DSLR in the current format and a medium format DSLR. Two different projects. Paul -- Original message -- From: Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 14/12/06, P. J. Alling, discombobulated, unleashed: I hope to see a K1D in 1 - 2 years if the 645D doesn't take off or kill Pentax when it fails. It's obvious to me that the 645D *is* the K1D -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, there have been times when Pentax has spoken of both a flagship DSLR in the current format and a medium format DSLR. Two different projects. Right. From the interview with Mr.Torigoe, head of Pentax imaging System Div: Q. K series digital is the main line, right? A. K series digital will continue to high end. Q. Does that mean the MF (645) Digital? A. No. It is going to be the K mount. Later in the interview, he does give Cotty *some* hope for keeping his chapeau out of his alimentary canal, if only through a loophole regarding the camera name: Q. Considering the naming pattern, is it going to be K1D? A. It's surely a K series camera. K1D could be one candidate but the name may not necessarily be K1D. :-P -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Luminous Landscape: Reichmann tries out a K10D
Oh, Gods, I hope not. Cotty wrote: On 14/12/06, P. J. Alling, discombobulated, unleashed: I hope to see a K1D in 1 - 2 years if the 645D doesn't take off or kill Pentax when it fails. It's obvious to me that the 645D *is* the K1D -- Things should be made as simple as possible -- but no simpler. --Albert Einstein -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
