Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
On 29/11/2011 18:59, Mark Roberts wrote: P. J. Allingwebstertwenty...@gmail.com wrote: I contacted Shel a couple of years ago, it seems. He seemed to be happy to hear from a list member but didn't respond to my second or third e-mail IIRC, Shel is the guy who bought a 77 Limited from Bill Robb and never paid for it. This might explain his reluctance to re-connect with the PDML. Sadly, that was not the only instance. I do, however, miss the irascible old sod. He knew his photography. -- No fixed Adobe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
On 11/29/2011 12:38 AM, Doug Brewer wrote: On 11/28/11 10:49 PM, Mark C wrote: Pretty sure it was our Cory Waters that spawned PESO. Don't know what happened to Shel, though. I do think that Shel was the one who raised the point about posting photos vs talking about them - don't know about the PESO term though. - Mark C -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
I miss Shel as well. G He was always blunt, and occasionally rude, but he made interesting and useful comments on images posted here, and his point of view always gave us something to think -- and talk -- about. Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 12:38 AM, Doug Brewer d...@alphoto.com wrote: On 11/28/11 10:49 PM, Mark C wrote: / /I don't know what ever happened to him, but a grand PDML'er named Shel Belinkoff once posted that we all talk about photos but never actually share them and suggested that we post a picture every so often - and thus was born the PESO, GESO, etc tradition. His comment sparked a fantastic change to the list, back when. Shel used to also diss on nature photography, often commentating that the greatest technical skill that nature photographers achieved was using a long exposure to blur moving water. He used to piss me off but I miss him - does anyone knoe what he is up to these days? Pretty sure it was our Cory Waters that spawned PESO. Don't know what happened to Shel, though. As far as the PUG goes - it did arise in the days when it was hard to get your photos on line. I was the third (? I think) pugmeister back in the early 00's and it truly was a vehicle to help people get their work online. KomKon was enormously generous to give us bandwidth and a platform back then, then it was really not cheap to get your own website and public forums like flicker were still a glint in the internet's eye. I guess nobody read the foreword to the most recent PDML book. It described the early days of the PUG accurately, if not factually. Best as I recall, it was, in PUGMeister chronological order: Me, Steve G., Me, then you. Mark C -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
Shel was an interesting guy with a lot of photography experience. I shot with him here in Chicago and met him later in San Francisco when Lynn I visited. I believe he suffered from serious bouts of depression. He offered to do a photo critique when we were starting the PESO or PAW postings. It was a cringe worthy experience, as brutal as any art critic I have ever read, and way 'over-the-top' for a friendly forum like the PDML. Part of the charm of the PDML is that we know one another. I expect a different level of photos from Bill Robb or Mark C. or Frank and can offer sharper criticism. With less experienced photographers, it isn't so much criticism as encouragement. Regards, Bob S. On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 11:55 PM, knarftheria...@gmail.com knarftheria...@gmail.com wrote: You are absolutely right, Doug, Cory did coin (pun intended) the PESO. Shel had earlier suggested the PAW (photo a week) an idea which I believe he got from the Leica Users Group (LUG). Good ol' Shel. He rubbed a lot of folks the wrong way but I liked him a lot, even though it was his nasty comment that was referred to much earlier in this thread as going way beyond a critique, becoming a personal attack. I think the whole affair led to his leaving the list. I should look him up one of these days, see how he's doing. cheers, frank --- Original Message --- From: Doug Brewer d...@alphoto.com Sent: November 29, 2011 11/29/11 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list On 11/28/11 10:49 PM, Mark C wrote: / /I don't know what ever happened to him, but a grand PDML'er named Shel Belinkoff once posted that we all talk about photos but never actually share them and suggested that we post a picture every so often - and thus was born the PESO, GESO, etc tradition. His comment sparked a fantastic change to the list, back when. Shel used to also diss on nature photography, often commentating that the greatest technical skill that nature photographers achieved was using a long exposure to blur moving water. He used to piss me off but I miss him - does anyone knoe what he is up to these days? Pretty sure it was our Cory Waters that spawned PESO. Don't know what happened to Shel, though. As far as the PUG goes - it did arise in the days when it was hard to get your photos on line. I was the third (? I think) pugmeister back in the early 00's and it truly was a vehicle to help people get their work online. KomKon was enormously generous to give us bandwidth and a platform back then, then it was really not cheap to get your own website and public forums like flicker were still a glint in the internet's eye. I guess nobody read the foreword to the most recent PDML book. It described the early days of the PUG accurately, if not factually. Best as I recall, it was, in PUGMeister chronological order: Me, Steve G., Me, then you. Mark C -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
From: Doug Brewer On 11/28/11 10:49 PM, Mark C wrote: / /I don't know what ever happened to him, but a grand PDML'er named Shel Belinkoff once posted that we all talk about photos but never actually share them and suggested that we post a picture every so often - and thus was born the PESO, GESO, etc tradition. His comment sparked a fantastic change to the list, back when. Shel used to also diss on nature photography, often commentating that the greatest technical skill that nature photographers achieved was using a long exposure to blur moving water. He used to piss me off but I miss him - does anyone knoe what he is up to these days? Pretty sure it was our Cory Waters that spawned PESO. Don't know what happened to Shel, though. I did a quick Google search. The most reliable info I came up with was in 2006 just about the time I joined PDML. He was over on Leica forums tearing them up - posting photos he'd taken with a Leica lens and after they'd all gone Ga-Ga over them revealing it was really a 50mm Takumar. http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.com/2006/12/official-leica-m8-early-verdict-post.html Seventh comment down. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
On 11/29/2011 12:05 PM, John Sessoms wrote: From: Doug Brewer On 11/28/11 10:49 PM, Mark C wrote: / /I don't know what ever happened to him, but a grand PDML'er named Shel Belinkoff once posted that we all talk about photos but never actually share them and suggested that we post a picture every so often - and thus was born the PESO, GESO, etc tradition. His comment sparked a fantastic change to the list, back when. Shel used to also diss on nature photography, often commentating that the greatest technical skill that nature photographers achieved was using a long exposure to blur moving water. He used to piss me off but I miss him - does anyone knoe what he is up to these days? Pretty sure it was our Cory Waters that spawned PESO. Don't know what happened to Shel, though. I did a quick Google search. The most reliable info I came up with was in 2006 just about the time I joined PDML. He was over on Leica forums tearing them up - posting photos he'd taken with a Leica lens and after they'd all gone Ga-Ga over them revealing it was really a 50mm Takumar. http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.com/2006/12/official-leica-m8-early-verdict-post.html Seventh comment down. Shel could be an evil, evil man. -- Don't lose heart! They might want to cut it out, and they'll want to avoid a lengthily search. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
I contacted Shel a couple of years ago, it seems. He seemed to be happy to hear from a list member but didn't respond to my second or third e-mail (can't remember which and that was two upgrades and a hard drive crash ago).. He intimated that he had some health and financial concerns that kept him from being a active as he wished to be both in the digital world and in real life. On 11/29/2011 10:12 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: I miss Shel as well.G He was always blunt, and occasionally rude, but he made interesting and useful comments on images posted here, and his point of view always gave us something to think -- and talk -- about. Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 12:38 AM, Doug Brewerd...@alphoto.com wrote: On 11/28/11 10:49 PM, Mark C wrote: / /I don't know what ever happened to him, but a grand PDML'er named Shel Belinkoff once posted that we all talk about photos but never actually share them and suggested that we post a picture every so often - and thus was born the PESO, GESO, etc tradition. His comment sparked a fantastic change to the list, back when. Shel used to also diss on nature photography, often commentating that the greatest technical skill that nature photographers achieved was using a long exposure to blur moving water. He used to piss me off but I miss him - does anyone knoe what he is up to these days? Pretty sure it was our Cory Waters that spawned PESO. Don't know what happened to Shel, though. As far as the PUG goes - it did arise in the days when it was hard to get your photos on line. I was the third (? I think) pugmeister back in the early 00's and it truly was a vehicle to help people get their work online. KomKon was enormously generous to give us bandwidth and a platform back then, then it was really not cheap to get your own website and public forums like flicker were still a glint in the internet's eye. I guess nobody read the foreword to the most recent PDML book. It described the early days of the PUG accurately, if not factually. Best as I recall, it was, in PUGMeister chronological order: Me, Steve G., Me, then you. Mark C -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Don't lose heart! They might want to cut it out, and they'll want to avoid a lengthily search. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
P. J. Alling webstertwenty...@gmail.com wrote: I contacted Shel a couple of years ago, it seems. He seemed to be happy to hear from a list member but didn't respond to my second or third e-mail IIRC, Shel is the guy who bought a 77 Limited from Bill Robb and never paid for it. This might explain his reluctance to re-connect with the PDML. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
Shel could be an evil, evil man. I could give Dobo a call. Dave -- Don't lose heart! They might want to cut it out, and they'll want to avoid a lengthily search. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
NO! Please, anything but that. Dan Matyola http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 1:51 PM, David J Brooks pentko...@gmail.com wrote: I could give Dobo a call. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
On 29/11/2011 9:17 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: I expect a different level of photos from Bill Robb or Mark C. or Frank and can offer sharper criticism. With less experienced photographers, it isn't so much criticism as encouragement. That was, I believe, Shel's reasoning behind his harsh critique. The photographer had an extremely high quality body of work, and posted an image that was far, far below his standard. Shel certainly did saw off on him, but I didn't think it completely undeserved, either. At some point, an honest critique of a good photographer posting a junk photo is going to delve into asking just exactly what the photographer was thinking. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Promoting the PUG, and the list
From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of David J Brooks Shel could be an evil, evil man. I could give Dobo a call. You'll find some help here: http://www.arcane-archive.org/faqs/summonspells.php B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
On 11/29/2011 6:45 PM, Bob W wrote: From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of David J Brooks Shel could be an evil, evil man. I could give Dobo a call. You'll find some help here: http://www.arcane-archive.org/faqs/summonspells.php B But is there a good binding spell... -- Don't lose heart! They might want to cut it out, and they'll want to avoid a lengthily search. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Promoting the PUG, and the list
I expect a different level of photos from Bill Robb or Mark C. or Frank and can offer sharper criticism. With less experienced photographers, it isn't so much criticism as encouragement. That was, I believe, Shel's reasoning behind his harsh critique. The photographer had an extremely high quality body of work, and posted an image that was far, far below his standard. Shel certainly did saw off on him, but I didn't think it completely undeserved, either. At some point, an honest critique of a good photographer posting a junk photo is going to delve into asking just exactly what the photographer was thinking. I don't remember whose photo it was that was critiqued, but as I remember the whole incident, Shel was giving an example of what one might want to write. I don't recall it being as tough as other people seem to recall and I think it was one of those things that spiralled out of control. A lot of people seem to think that a critique or criticism is by definition negative, but it isn't. The difference between encouragement or abuse and criticism is that the latter is reasoned, whereas the former are just unsupported assertions of opinion. Great photo, Frank and Pile of shit, Bob are perfectly valid opinions and the sort of thing that we'll always get because we're all far too busy to write much about each photo, but it's nice when people occasionally give us some of the thinking behind the opinion. For the record, if I don't comment on a picture it doesn't mean that I like or dislike it, merely that I don't want to comment on it. Similarly, when I post pictures I'm always happy interested to hear whatever anyone has to say about, but I won't read anything into silence. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
As I recall, the photo wasn't particularly bad. But Shel's critique was aimed directly at the photographer, without any real discussion of the image. It was way out of line. There's never a need for a personal attack. Paul On Nov 29, 2011, at 6:43 PM, William Robb wrote: On 29/11/2011 9:17 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: I expect a different level of photos from Bill Robb or Mark C. or Frank and can offer sharper criticism. With less experienced photographers, it isn't so much criticism as encouragement. That was, I believe, Shel's reasoning behind his harsh critique. The photographer had an extremely high quality body of work, and posted an image that was far, far below his standard. Shel certainly did saw off on him, but I didn't think it completely undeserved, either. At some point, an honest critique of a good photographer posting a junk photo is going to delve into asking just exactly what the photographer was thinking. -- William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
On 11/29/2011 12:27 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: I contacted Shel a couple of years ago, it seems. He seemed to be happy to hear from a list member but didn't respond to my second or third e-mail (can't remember which and that was two upgrades and a hard drive crash ago).. He intimated that he had some health and financial concerns that kept him from being a active as he wished to be both in the digital world and in real life. I'm glad to hear that Shel is still around (or was a few years ago at least.) I recall him announcing that he would be gone for a while, and shortly after that I dropped for an extended period and never knew what came of him. I often think of some his remarks - like (to paraphrase) When people have a fine meal they don't ask the chef what brand of pots and pans he used, but when they see a great photo that's the first thing they ask the photographer... Or something like that. Mark C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 6:47 PM, P. J. Alling webstertwenty...@gmail.com wrote: On 11/29/2011 6:45 PM, Bob W wrote: From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of David J Brooks Shel could be an evil, evil man. I could give Dobo a call. You'll find some help here: http://www.arcane-archive.org/faqs/summonspells.php Oh oh. I read one out loud, sorry all Dave B But is there a good binding spell... -- Don't lose heart! They might want to cut it out, and they'll want to avoid a lengthily search. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
From: Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net As I recall, the photo wasn't particularly bad. But Shel's critique was aimed directly at the photographer, without any real discussion of the image. It was way out of line. There's never a need for a personal attack. Paul On Nov 29, 2011, at 6:43 PM, William Robb wrote: On 29/11/2011 9:17 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: I expect a different level of photos from Bill Robb or Mark C. or Frank and can offer sharper criticism. With less experienced photographers, it isn't so much criticism as encouragement. That was, I believe, Shel's reasoning behind his harsh critique. The photographer had an extremely high quality body of work, and posted an image that was far, far below his standard. Shel certainly did saw off on him, but I didn't think it completely undeserved, either. At some point, an honest critique of a good photographer posting a junk photo is going to delve into asking just exactly what the photographer was thinking. William Robb That's an idiotic thing to say Bill! How could you be so lame brained to make such a moronic comment? I thought you were smarter than that, but I guess not... Shel was totally out of line and it's exactly that kind of critique that's out of place and is flat out wrong. First, it presumes, often incorrectly, that the critic knows better than the photographer which is many times not the case. Second, a photographer can take any kind of photo they want, and since subjectivity plays such a large role, the critic's opinion is merely that. Third, Shel of all people had no right to criticize other's work in such a manner. As far as I was concerned his body of work he displayed was 95% dung heap with a SOB story to go with it, and had next to no redeeming merit. Any elementary school child handed a camera for the first time could have produced the same without thinking. Tom C -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
On Nov 29, 2011, at 17:23 , Tom C wrote: From: Paul Stenquist pnstenqu...@comcast.net As I recall, the photo wasn't particularly bad. But Shel's critique was aimed directly at the photographer, without any real discussion of the image. It was way out of line. There's never a need for a personal attack. Paul On Nov 29, 2011, at 6:43 PM, William Robb wrote: On 29/11/2011 9:17 AM, Bob Sullivan wrote: I expect a different level of photos from Bill Robb or Mark C. or Frank and can offer sharper criticism. With less experienced photographers, it isn't so much criticism as encouragement. That was, I believe, Shel's reasoning behind his harsh critique. The photographer had an extremely high quality body of work, and posted an image that was far, far below his standard. Shel certainly did saw off on him, but I didn't think it completely undeserved, either. At some point, an honest critique of a good photographer posting a junk photo is going to delve into asking just exactly what the photographer was thinking. William Robb That's an idiotic thing to say Bill! How could you be so lame brained to make such a moronic comment? I thought you were smarter than that, but I guess not... Shel was totally out of line and it's exactly that kind of critique that's out of place and is flat out wrong. First, it presumes, often incorrectly, that the critic knows better than the photographer which is many times not the case. Second, a photographer can take any kind of photo they want, and since subjectivity plays such a large role, the critic's opinion is merely that. Third, Shel of all people had no right to criticize other's work in such a manner. As far as I was concerned his body of work he displayed was 95% dung heap with a SOB story to go with it, and had next to no redeeming merit. Any elementary school child handed a camera for the first time could have produced the same without thinking. Tom C I see Shel is still around under a Nome de Plume! :-) Joseph McAllister Pentaxian http://gallery.me.com/jomac -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
On Nov 29, 2011, at 7:12 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote: I miss Shel as well. G He was always blunt, and occasionally rude, One would almost expect that being blunt and rude were practically requirements for posting on PDML. but he made interesting and useful comments on images posted here, and his point of view always gave us something to think -- and talk -- about. Years later it would seem. There are times that I think it would be helpful, or at least fun, to be in a photographic critique group where people were straightforward, blunt, and occasionally creative, in their critique of photos. It would not be a venue for the faint of heart, nor the thin skinned, and it would be important that the feedback were given not merely as an excuse to slam or ridicule, and that praise were given when appropriate as often as criticism. I'd also like a 645D. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Promoting the PUG, and the list
From: pdml-boun...@pdml.net [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Larry Colen Years later it would seem. There are times that I think it would be helpful, or at least fun, to be in a photographic critique group where people were straightforward, blunt, and occasionally creative, in their critique of photos. It would not be a venue for the faint of heart, nor the thin skinned, and it would be important that the feedback were given not merely as an excuse to slam or ridicule, and that praise were given when appropriate as often as criticism. you could do worse than join your local chapter of the Royal Photographic Society - they do have overseas groups. They have a distinctions programme which involves you submitting sets of photographs to try and earn the distinction. During workshops you get excellent critiques from the distinctions panel, with feedback on what they think you need to do to advance towards the distinction. It's very useful feedback and very well delivered, but you have to put it in context. For example, the last time I went I showed documentary / travel photos in a session that was primarily intended for pictorial 'art' photography, and the evaluation criteria are not really the same. http://www.rps.org/distinctions_workshops I'd also like a 645D. They can't help there. They're mostly old men with Leicas. B -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
On 11/27/2011 4:46 PM, Brian Walters wrote: The PUG started in pre-digital days when the ability to share photos online wasn't as trivial as it is now and, to some extent, the widespread uses of PESOs and GESOs has taken over part of its role. But a themed gallery combining the talents of members is still a nice feature of the list, IMO. Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ / /I don't know what ever happened to him, but a grand PDML'er named Shel Belinkoff once posted that we all talk about photos but never actually share them and suggested that we post a picture every so often - and thus was born the PESO, GESO, etc tradition. His comment sparked a fantastic change to the list, back when. Shel used to also diss on nature photography, often commentating that the greatest technical skill that nature photographers achieved was using a long exposure to blur moving water. He used to piss me off but I miss him - does anyone knoe what he is up to these days? As far as the PUG goes - it did arise in the days when it was hard to get your photos on line. I was the third (? I think) pugmeister back in the early 00's and it truly was a vehicle to help people get their work online. KomKon was enormously generous to give us bandwidth and a platform back then, then it was really not cheap to get your own website and public forums like flicker were still a glint in the internet's eye. Mark C -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
On 11/28/11 10:49 PM, Mark C wrote: / /I don't know what ever happened to him, but a grand PDML'er named Shel Belinkoff once posted that we all talk about photos but never actually share them and suggested that we post a picture every so often - and thus was born the PESO, GESO, etc tradition. His comment sparked a fantastic change to the list, back when. Shel used to also diss on nature photography, often commentating that the greatest technical skill that nature photographers achieved was using a long exposure to blur moving water. He used to piss me off but I miss him - does anyone knoe what he is up to these days? Pretty sure it was our Cory Waters that spawned PESO. Don't know what happened to Shel, though. As far as the PUG goes - it did arise in the days when it was hard to get your photos on line. I was the third (? I think) pugmeister back in the early 00's and it truly was a vehicle to help people get their work online. KomKon was enormously generous to give us bandwidth and a platform back then, then it was really not cheap to get your own website and public forums like flicker were still a glint in the internet's eye. I guess nobody read the foreword to the most recent PDML book. It described the early days of the PUG accurately, if not factually. Best as I recall, it was, in PUGMeister chronological order: Me, Steve G., Me, then you. Mark C -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
You are absolutely right, Doug, Cory did coin (pun intended) the PESO. Shel had earlier suggested the PAW (photo a week) an idea which I believe he got from the Leica Users Group (LUG). Good ol' Shel. He rubbed a lot of folks the wrong way but I liked him a lot, even though it was his nasty comment that was referred to much earlier in this thread as going way beyond a critique, becoming a personal attack. I think the whole affair led to his leaving the list. I should look him up one of these days, see how he's doing. cheers, frank --- Original Message --- From: Doug Brewer d...@alphoto.com Sent: November 29, 2011 11/29/11 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list On 11/28/11 10:49 PM, Mark C wrote: / /I don't know what ever happened to him, but a grand PDML'er named Shel Belinkoff once posted that we all talk about photos but never actually share them and suggested that we post a picture every so often - and thus was born the PESO, GESO, etc tradition. His comment sparked a fantastic change to the list, back when. Shel used to also diss on nature photography, often commentating that the greatest technical skill that nature photographers achieved was using a long exposure to blur moving water. He used to piss me off but I miss him - does anyone knoe what he is up to these days? Pretty sure it was our Cory Waters that spawned PESO. Don't know what happened to Shel, though. As far as the PUG goes - it did arise in the days when it was hard to get your photos on line. I was the third (? I think) pugmeister back in the early 00's and it truly was a vehicle to help people get their work online. KomKon was enormously generous to give us bandwidth and a platform back then, then it was really not cheap to get your own website and public forums like flicker were still a glint in the internet's eye. I guess nobody read the foreword to the most recent PDML book. It described the early days of the PUG accurately, if not factually. Best as I recall, it was, in PUGMeister chronological order: Me, Steve G., Me, then you. Mark C -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
AFAIK the PUG has never had any official connection to Pentax, it's always been a function of the members of the group. The List was once a function of Pentax but is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Brewer Productions. On 11/27/2011 3:58 PM, Larry Colen wrote: Since this topic has little to do with my questions about meta-skills, particularly those about giving and taking criticism, I've changed the subject line. One question I had was what the purpose of the PUG currently is. I believe that Pentax used it to showcase their products, to sell more gear, i.e. what the PPG is now. Then again it could always have been a monthly diversion for the list members. Note that this is a different question than why would we want more people to see the PUG, or advertise it on facebook. And, yet again another question as to why we'd want to advertise the presence of the PDML, and to whom. On Nov 27, 2011, at 12:37 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: mike wilsonm.9.wil...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 27/11/2011 03:34, Christine Aguila wrote: That's an interesting idea. What do folks think? Cheers, Christine As I understand it PUG is for list members, actively contributing or not. Why would we want to promote it? The idea would be to promote The List. More people might be likely to take an interest in the PDML if they could see what kind of cool photography is being done by members and also see a venue where they might show off their own photographs. We can always use some new blood around here. I wouldn't say *always*. Look up the concept of Eternal September, then go and spend some time on the DP Review Pentax forum. I think that a lot of the things that I like about this list, such as the quality of critique, when people have the time to, has a lot to do with the fact that it isn't positioned so that it is the first place for discussion that every new photographer with a Pentax finds. Since I already have a Facebook page for the PDML Photo Annual, perhaps I could just post an announcement there once a month when the PUG appears. If people who post to the PUG, would actually like more people to see their photos, then announcing new material on it is an excellent idea, whether it's facebook, livejournal, dpreview or Pentax Forums. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- Don't lose heart! They might want to cut it out, and they'll want to avoid a lengthily search. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
On Nov 27, 2011, at 1:19 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: AFAIK the PUG has never had any official connection to Pentax, it's always been a function of the members of the group. The List was once a function of Pentax but is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Brewer Productions. Ah, OK.So, that still leaves open the question, what is the purpose of the PUG? Who is the intended audience? -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
On Sunday, November 27, 2011 1:22 PM, Larry Colen l...@red4est.com wrote: On Nov 27, 2011, at 1:19 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: AFAIK the PUG has never had any official connection to Pentax, it's always been a function of the members of the group. The List was once a function of Pentax but is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Brewer Productions. Ah, OK.So, that still leaves open the question, what is the purpose of the PUG? Who is the intended audience? As far as I know, the intended audience is us, but that doesn't mean that it can't be shared more widely. The PUG started in pre-digital days when the ability to share photos online wasn't as trivial as it is now and, to some extent, the widespread uses of PESOs and GESOs has taken over part of its role. But a themed gallery combining the talents of members is still a nice feature of the list, IMO. Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Accessible with your email software or over the web -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
On Nov 27, 2011, at 4:22 PM, Larry Colen wrote: On Nov 27, 2011, at 1:19 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: AFAIK the PUG has never had any official connection to Pentax, it's always been a function of the members of the group. The List was once a function of Pentax but is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Brewer Productions. Ah, OK.So, that still leaves open the question, what is the purpose of the PUG? Who is the intended audience? Note that the PUG long predates the PESO/GESO business (and the monthly galleries were not themed.) Back in the day, digitizing and uploading an image took more than a momentary whim, and having a monthly gallery wherein we could share images with other Pentaxians added an incentive to go through that process. Even though the preparation is relatively trivial now, it is still useful IMHO to have a monthly theme-based incentive/opportunity to share a particular image and then see how others have interpreted the theme. I really don't care one way or another if any other than friends and family of the PUG posters ever look at the PUG. It is possible, though highly unlikely, that a non-Pentaxian might look at the wonderful images typically included and say to herself Gee golly, that Pentax gear sure takes wonderful photos, I'll need to go get me some. And it is a good thing if more people buy Pentax gear because then maybe Pentax will produce some long lenses. But mostly I think the audience is the members of the list and I don't see a problem with that. stan -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
On Nov 27, 2011, at 4:46 PM, Brian Walters wrote: On Sunday, November 27, 2011 1:22 PM, Larry Colen l...@red4est.com wrote: On Nov 27, 2011, at 1:19 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: AFAIK the PUG has never had any official connection to Pentax, it's always been a function of the members of the group. The List was once a function of Pentax but is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Brewer Productions. Ah, OK.So, that still leaves open the question, what is the purpose of the PUG? Who is the intended audience? As far as I know, the intended audience is us, but that doesn't mean that it can't be shared more widely. The PUG started in pre-digital days when the ability to share photos online wasn't as trivial as it is now and, to some extent, the widespread uses of PESOs and GESOs has taken over part of its role. But a themed gallery combining the talents of members is still a nice feature of the list, IMO. Cheers Brian Great minds think alike. stan -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
On Sunday, November 27, 2011 5:00 PM, Stan Halpin s...@stans-photography.info wrote: On Nov 27, 2011, at 4:46 PM, Brian Walters wrote: On Sunday, November 27, 2011 1:22 PM, Larry Colen l...@red4est.com wrote: On Nov 27, 2011, at 1:19 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: AFAIK the PUG has never had any official connection to Pentax, it's always been a function of the members of the group. The List was once a function of Pentax but is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Brewer Productions. Ah, OK.So, that still leaves open the question, what is the purpose of the PUG? Who is the intended audience? As far as I know, the intended audience is us, but that doesn't mean that it can't be shared more widely. The PUG started in pre-digital days when the ability to share photos online wasn't as trivial as it is now and, to some extent, the widespread uses of PESOs and GESOs has taken over part of its role. But a themed gallery combining the talents of members is still a nice feature of the list, IMO. Cheers Brian Great minds think alike. I was thinking the same thing. ;-) Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ stan -- -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
The universe at large. On 11/27/2011 4:22 PM, Larry Colen wrote: On Nov 27, 2011, at 1:19 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: AFAIK the PUG has never had any official connection to Pentax, it's always been a function of the members of the group. The List was once a function of Pentax but is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Brewer Productions. Ah, OK.So, that still leaves open the question, what is the purpose of the PUG? Who is the intended audience? -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com sent from i4est -- Don't lose heart! They might want to cut it out, and they'll want to avoid a lengthily search. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Promoting the PUG, and the list
On 11/27/2011 5:00 PM, Stan Halpin wrote: On Nov 27, 2011, at 4:46 PM, Brian Walters wrote: On Sunday, November 27, 2011 1:22 PM, Larry Colenl...@red4est.com wrote: On Nov 27, 2011, at 1:19 PM, P. J. Alling wrote: AFAIK the PUG has never had any official connection to Pentax, it's always been a function of the members of the group. The List was once a function of Pentax but is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Brewer Productions. Ah, OK.So, that still leaves open the question, what is the purpose of the PUG? Who is the intended audience? As far as I know, the intended audience is us, but that doesn't mean that it can't be shared more widely. The PUG started in pre-digital days when the ability to share photos online wasn't as trivial as it is now and, to some extent, the widespread uses of PESOs and GESOs has taken over part of its role. But a themed gallery combining the talents of members is still a nice feature of the list, IMO. Cheers Brian Great minds think alike. stan Great mind stink alike... -- Don't lose heart! They might want to cut it out, and they'll want to avoid a lengthily search. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
