Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
The idea that kings should lead from the front really lost favor after the fall of Napoleon the III, he was one of the last emperors who insisted on leading his troops from near the front. The problem was that while he was a Napoleon he wasn't the Napoleon. graywolf wrote: > A long long time ago in a land far far away the king was expected to be out > in > front of the pawns leading them. > > Now they lead from the rear. Preferably from another continent. That was most > likely the scariest part of the idea of nuclear war to them, there was no > rear > for them to lead from. > > > Tom C wrote: > >> The Kings have always sacrificed their pawns, and generally their pawns go >> willingingly because they have been convinced it is the noble thing to do. >> > > -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of P. J. Alling > Sent: 30 September 2007 19:30 > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > > The official reason was to record for posterity. Propaganda remember > literally means truth. > Propaganda literally means things to propagate. Truth is neither here nor there. In fact, used for ideas it is a metaphor, rather similar to the way broadcast is a metaphor when applied to radio and TV transmission. Propago, -are, -avi, -atum, verb transitive, to propagate, to extend, to prolong. Propaganda is the gerundive - a 'verbal adjective', passive. It is formed by adding -nd to the root, and adding the appropriate gender ending -us, -s, -um. It carries with it a sense of duty, or necessaity. Cato famously used a gerundive in all of his speeches, which he ended with the phrase "Carthago delenda est" - Carthage must be destroyed. Thus propag- -anda: things to be propagated, extended or prolonged. It is the same (Latin) grammatical form as agenda, which literally means things to be done. -- Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
Please, I'm trying to get that copyrighted. (I expect to sell lots of mugs and tee shirts in the next year). Kenneth Waller wrote: > More likely a vast right wing conspiracy. > > Kenneth Waller > http://tinyurl.com/272u2f > > > - Original Message - > From: "David Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:52 PM > Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > > > >> On 9/29/07, Bob Sullivan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> Dictionaries are probably a commie plot. >>> >> LOL >> >> Cheers, >> >> Dave >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> > > > -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
As a cynic I find this entirely too cynical. Tom C wrote: > The Kings have always sacrificed their pawns, and generally their pawns go > willingingly because they have been convinced it is the noble thing to do. > > Tom C. > > > >> From: "Bob Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" >> Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:08:03 -0500 >> >> Public television is running a new World War II series produced by Ken >> Burns (who produced the award winning US Civil War monograph). It has >> been 10 hours of TV this week, tracing people in 4 US cities and their >> experiences with the war - Waterbury, Conneticut - Sacramento, >> California - a small town in rural Minnesota - another town in >> Lousiana or Alabama. The picture of life in those times makes our >> times look cynical and self absorbed. >> >> It is propaganda to use the flag raising picture to try and make >> people buy War Bonds and dig deeper to support the cause. >> It is not propaganda to try and make those sacrificing at home see >> some glimmer of hope and share in a national pride for their >> sacrifices. >> Propaganda to me is about manipulating the national sentiment to >> support bad causes. I know others will differ with me on this. >> >> Regards, Bob S. >> >> On 9/28/07, William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> - Original Message - >>> From: "Bob Sullivan" >>> Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >>> >>> >>> >>>> Bill and Tom, >>>> >>>> What is a propaganda photo? >>>> The flag raising at Iwo Jima was an inspirational moment by design. >>>> It was a premature 'celebration' of victory, 2 days into a grim 30 day >>>> battle. >>>> The flag was raised to inspire those fighting on the island below. >>>> >>>> The photo took on a propaganda aura based on how the media handled it, >>>> the events themselves (a difficult battle), and the qualities of the >>>> photo itself. The US government used the photo as the centerpiece of >>>> a massive War Bond drive - the kind of promotional campaign that would >>>> make Nike look like a lightweight in comparison today. (Imagine >>>> financing Vietnam from 'donations' to War Bonds instead of deficit >>>> spending!) >>>> >>>> Propaganda is a loaded word. >>>> >>> Technically, it is information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread >>> >> widely >> >>> to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc, >>> >> nothing >> >>> more, nothing less. >>> >>> I'm guessing that had the Vietnam war more going for it than pocket pool >>> ideology, it would have been more popular, I am sure. >>> >>> William Robb >>> >>> >>> -- >>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> PDML@pdml.net >>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >>> >> follow the directions. >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> > > > > -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
The official reason was to record for posterity. Propaganda remember literally means truth. frank theriault wrote: > On 9/28/07, Bob Sullivan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Bill and Tom, >> >> What is a propaganda photo? >> The flag raising at Iwo Jima was an inspirational moment by design. >> It was a premature 'celebration' of victory, 2 days into a grim 30 day >> battle. >> The flag was raised to inspire those fighting on the island below. >> >> The photo took on a propaganda aura based on how the media handled it, >> the events themselves (a difficult battle), and the qualities of the >> photo itself. The US government used the photo as the centerpiece of >> a massive War Bond drive - the kind of promotional campaign that would >> make Nike look like a lightweight in comparison today. (Imagine >> financing Vietnam from 'donations' to War Bonds instead of deficit >> spending!) >> >> Propaganda is a loaded word. >> > > It may be a "loaded word", but IMHO, whether intended as propaganda or > not (and as Rosenthal was there with the armed forces, it's hard to > believe that he had no awareness that the photo could be used for > "inspirational purposes"), in fact it was used to promote a cause > (that of raising the war-weary spirits of Americans on the "home > front" of WWII). > > It may have been a good cause, to be sure, but it was still propaganda. > > Good propaganda? > > I think so. > > But propaganda none-the-less... > > cheers, > frank > > -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
A long long time ago in a land far far away the king was expected to be out in front of the pawns leading them. Now they lead from the rear. Preferably from another continent. That was most likely the scariest part of the idea of nuclear war to them, there was no rear for them to lead from. Tom C wrote: > The Kings have always sacrificed their pawns, and generally their pawns go > willingingly because they have been convinced it is the noble thing to do. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
Wow, Thunderbird claimed that it could send this because it could not connect to the smtp server, but here it is. And while I was typing this a pop up from AVG popped up saying, "Test cannot be started because it already does not exist". I think my computer is haunted. graywolf wrote: > The problem is that you (plural) seem to think propaganda is necessarily > negative. Do you think the US did not have a doctrine of winning the war. Do > you > think they thought they had pacified I island when the photo proclaiming a > victory was made? Do you think that the US used the photo purely as a news > photo > with no intention of rousing a positive response from the populace? If so I > have > an island in the Hudson River to sell you, cheap. > > > propaganda > > propaganda (pròp´e-gàn´de) noun > 1.The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information > reflecting the views and interests of those people advocating such a doctrine > or > cause. > 2.Material disseminated by the advocates of a doctrine or cause: the > selected > truths, exaggerations, and lies of wartime propaganda. > 3. Propaganda. Roman Catholic Church. A division of the Roman Curia that > has > authority in the matter of preaching the gospel, of establishing the Church in > non-Christian countries, and of administering Church missions in territories > where there is no properly organized hierarchy. > > [New Latin, short for Sacra Congregâtio dê Propagandâ Fide, Sacred > Congregation for Propagating the Faith (established 1622), from ablative > feminine gerundive of Latin propâgâre, to propagate. See propagate.] > - prop´agan´dism noun > - prop´agan´dist noun > - prop´agandis´tic adjective > - prop´agandis´tically adverb > > The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition > copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from > INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution restricted in > accordance > with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved. > > Bob Sullivan wrote: >> Bill and Tom, >> >> What is a propaganda photo? >> The flag raising at Iwo Jima was an inspirational moment by design. >> It was a premature 'celebration' of victory, 2 days into a grim 30 day >> battle. >> The flag was raised to inspire those fighting on the island below. >> >> The photo took on a propaganda aura based on how the media handled it, >> the events themselves (a difficult battle), and the qualities of the >> photo itself. The US government used the photo as the centerpiece of >> a massive War Bond drive - the kind of promotional campaign that would >> make Nike look like a lightweight in comparison today. (Imagine >> financing Vietnam from 'donations' to War Bonds instead of deficit >> spending!) >> >> Propaganda is a loaded word. >> >> Regards, Bob S. >> >> >> On 9/27/07, William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> - Original Message - >>> From: "graywolf" >>> Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >>> >>> >>>> If the Iwo Jima photo was taken in a studio in California is it an any >>>> less >>>> powerful image? Would it have less meaning to a people at war? It is easy >>>> to sit >>>> in our comfortable living rooms decades later and talk about it as if it >>>> were >>>> some kind of conspiracy, but it was a powerful wartime propaganda photo >>>> regardless of when and where and how it was taken. >>> We should compare notes to see how many people called you out for listing >>> that photo as propoganda compared to me. >>> >>> William Robb >>> >>> >>> -- >>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> PDML@pdml.net >>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >>> follow the directions. >>> > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
Well, I tried to answer before but my IS was refusing connections to its smtp server. The problem is you are assigning value to the word that it really does not have. Propaganda is not good or evil. That depends upon by who and why it is being used. Basically all the word means is that the words, illustrations, etc are being used to further some agenda or another. The value of that agenda is another issue altogether. Bob Sullivan wrote: > Public television is running a new World War II series produced by Ken > Burns (who produced the award winning US Civil War monograph). It has > been 10 hours of TV this week, tracing people in 4 US cities and their > experiences with the war - Waterbury, Conneticut - Sacramento, > California - a small town in rural Minnesota - another town in > Lousiana or Alabama. The picture of life in those times makes our > times look cynical and self absorbed. > > It is propaganda to use the flag raising picture to try and make > people buy War Bonds and dig deeper to support the cause. > It is not propaganda to try and make those sacrificing at home see > some glimmer of hope and share in a national pride for their > sacrifices. > Propaganda to me is about manipulating the national sentiment to > support bad causes. I know others will differ with me on this. > > Regards, Bob S. > > On 9/28/07, William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> - Original Message ----- >> From: "Bob Sullivan" >> Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >> >> >>> Bill and Tom, >>> >>> What is a propaganda photo? >>> The flag raising at Iwo Jima was an inspirational moment by design. >>> It was a premature 'celebration' of victory, 2 days into a grim 30 day >>> battle. >>> The flag was raised to inspire those fighting on the island below. >>> >>> The photo took on a propaganda aura based on how the media handled it, >>> the events themselves (a difficult battle), and the qualities of the >>> photo itself. The US government used the photo as the centerpiece of >>> a massive War Bond drive - the kind of promotional campaign that would >>> make Nike look like a lightweight in comparison today. (Imagine >>> financing Vietnam from 'donations' to War Bonds instead of deficit >>> spending!) >>> >>> Propaganda is a loaded word. >> Technically, it is information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely >> to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc, nothing >> more, nothing less. >> >> I'm guessing that had the Vietnam war more going for it than pocket pool >> ideology, it would have been more popular, I am sure. >> >> William Robb >> >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
The problem is that you (plural) seem to think propaganda is necessarily negative. Do you think the US did not have a doctrine of winning the war. Do you think they thought they had pacified I island when the photo proclaiming a victory was made? Do you think that the US used the photo purely as a news photo with no intention of rousing a positive response from the populace? If so I have an island in the Hudson River to sell you, cheap. propaganda propaganda (pròp´e-gàn´de) noun 1. The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those people advocating such a doctrine or cause. 2. Material disseminated by the advocates of a doctrine or cause: the selected truths, exaggerations, and lies of wartime propaganda. 3. Propaganda. Roman Catholic Church. A division of the Roman Curia that has authority in the matter of preaching the gospel, of establishing the Church in non-Christian countries, and of administering Church missions in territories where there is no properly organized hierarchy. [New Latin, short for Sacra Congregâtio dê Propagandâ Fide, Sacred Congregation for Propagating the Faith (established 1622), from ablative feminine gerundive of Latin propâgâre, to propagate. See propagate.] - prop´agan´dism noun - prop´agan´dist noun - prop´agandis´tic adjective - prop´agandis´tically adverb The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved. Bob Sullivan wrote: > Bill and Tom, > > What is a propaganda photo? > The flag raising at Iwo Jima was an inspirational moment by design. > It was a premature 'celebration' of victory, 2 days into a grim 30 day battle. > The flag was raised to inspire those fighting on the island below. > > The photo took on a propaganda aura based on how the media handled it, > the events themselves (a difficult battle), and the qualities of the > photo itself. The US government used the photo as the centerpiece of > a massive War Bond drive - the kind of promotional campaign that would > make Nike look like a lightweight in comparison today. (Imagine > financing Vietnam from 'donations' to War Bonds instead of deficit > spending!) > > Propaganda is a loaded word. > > Regards, Bob S. > > > On 9/27/07, William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> ----- Original Message - >> From: "graywolf" >> Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >> >> >>> >>> If the Iwo Jima photo was taken in a studio in California is it an any >>> less >>> powerful image? Would it have less meaning to a people at war? It is easy >>> to sit >>> in our comfortable living rooms decades later and talk about it as if it >>> were >>> some kind of conspiracy, but it was a powerful wartime propaganda photo >>> regardless of when and where and how it was taken. >> We should compare notes to see how many people called you out for listing >> that photo as propoganda compared to me. >> >> William Robb >> >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
More likely a vast right wing conspiracy. Kenneth Waller http://tinyurl.com/272u2f - Original Message - From: "David Savage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:52 PM Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > On 9/29/07, Bob Sullivan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Dictionaries are probably a commie plot. > > LOL > > Cheers, > > Dave > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 03:42:16 +0100, Tom C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The Kings have always sacrificed their pawns, and generally their pawns > go > willingingly because they have been convinced it is the noble thing to > do. Dulce et decorum est, pro patria mori. They go willingly, and once there, there's no way back. http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html John > Tom C. > > >> From: "Bob Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" >> Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:08:03 -0500 >> >> Public television is running a new World War II series produced by Ken >> Burns (who produced the award winning US Civil War monograph). It has >> been 10 hours of TV this week, tracing people in 4 US cities and their >> experiences with the war - Waterbury, Conneticut - Sacramento, >> California - a small town in rural Minnesota - another town in >> Lousiana or Alabama. The picture of life in those times makes our >> times look cynical and self absorbed. >> >> It is propaganda to use the flag raising picture to try and make >> people buy War Bonds and dig deeper to support the cause. >> It is not propaganda to try and make those sacrificing at home see >> some glimmer of hope and share in a national pride for their >> sacrifices. >> Propaganda to me is about manipulating the national sentiment to >> support bad causes. I know others will differ with me on this. >> >> Regards, Bob S. >> >> On 9/28/07, William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > >> > - Original Message - >> > From: "Bob Sullivan" >> > Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >> > >> > >> > > Bill and Tom, >> > > >> > > What is a propaganda photo? >> > > The flag raising at Iwo Jima was an inspirational moment by design. >> > > It was a premature 'celebration' of victory, 2 days into a grim 30 >> day >> > > battle. >> > > The flag was raised to inspire those fighting on the island below. >> > > >> > > The photo took on a propaganda aura based on how the media handled >> it, >> > > the events themselves (a difficult battle), and the qualities of the >> > > photo itself. The US government used the photo as the centerpiece >> of >> > > a massive War Bond drive - the kind of promotional campaign that >> would >> > > make Nike look like a lightweight in comparison today. (Imagine >> > > financing Vietnam from 'donations' to War Bonds instead of deficit >> > > spending!) >> > > >> > > Propaganda is a loaded word. >> > >> > Technically, it is information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread >> widely >> > to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc, >> nothing >> > more, nothing less. >> > >> > I'm guessing that had the Vietnam war more going for it than pocket >> pool >> > ideology, it would have been more popular, I am sure. >> > >> > William Robb >> > >> > >> > -- >> > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> > PDML@pdml.net >> > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. >> > >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. > > > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
On 9/29/07, Bob Sullivan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dictionaries are probably a commie plot. LOL Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
Yeah, that's what I figured... Dictionaries are probably a commie plot. Regards, Bob S. On 9/28/07, William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > - Original Message - > From: "Bob Sullivan" > Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > > > > > Propaganda to me is about manipulating the national sentiment to > > support bad causes. I know others will differ with me on this. > > My definition came from a dictionary. > Nyah nyah. > > William Robb > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
- Original Message - From: "Bob Sullivan" Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > Propaganda to me is about manipulating the national sentiment to > support bad causes. I know others will differ with me on this. My definition came from a dictionary. Nyah nyah. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
The Kings have always sacrificed their pawns, and generally their pawns go willingingly because they have been convinced it is the noble thing to do. Tom C. >From: "Bob Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" >Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:08:03 -0500 > >Public television is running a new World War II series produced by Ken >Burns (who produced the award winning US Civil War monograph). It has >been 10 hours of TV this week, tracing people in 4 US cities and their >experiences with the war - Waterbury, Conneticut - Sacramento, >California - a small town in rural Minnesota - another town in >Lousiana or Alabama. The picture of life in those times makes our >times look cynical and self absorbed. > >It is propaganda to use the flag raising picture to try and make >people buy War Bonds and dig deeper to support the cause. >It is not propaganda to try and make those sacrificing at home see >some glimmer of hope and share in a national pride for their >sacrifices. >Propaganda to me is about manipulating the national sentiment to >support bad causes. I know others will differ with me on this. > >Regards, Bob S. > >On 9/28/07, William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Bob Sullivan" > > Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > > > > > > > Bill and Tom, > > > > > > What is a propaganda photo? > > > The flag raising at Iwo Jima was an inspirational moment by design. > > > It was a premature 'celebration' of victory, 2 days into a grim 30 day > > > battle. > > > The flag was raised to inspire those fighting on the island below. > > > > > > The photo took on a propaganda aura based on how the media handled it, > > > the events themselves (a difficult battle), and the qualities of the > > > photo itself. The US government used the photo as the centerpiece of > > > a massive War Bond drive - the kind of promotional campaign that would > > > make Nike look like a lightweight in comparison today. (Imagine > > > financing Vietnam from 'donations' to War Bonds instead of deficit > > > spending!) > > > > > > Propaganda is a loaded word. > > > > Technically, it is information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread >widely > > to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc, >nothing > > more, nothing less. > > > > I'm guessing that had the Vietnam war more going for it than pocket pool > > ideology, it would have been more popular, I am sure. > > > > William Robb > > > > > > -- > > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > > PDML@pdml.net > > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >follow the directions. > > > >-- >PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >PDML@pdml.net >http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
Public television is running a new World War II series produced by Ken Burns (who produced the award winning US Civil War monograph). It has been 10 hours of TV this week, tracing people in 4 US cities and their experiences with the war - Waterbury, Conneticut - Sacramento, California - a small town in rural Minnesota - another town in Lousiana or Alabama. The picture of life in those times makes our times look cynical and self absorbed. It is propaganda to use the flag raising picture to try and make people buy War Bonds and dig deeper to support the cause. It is not propaganda to try and make those sacrificing at home see some glimmer of hope and share in a national pride for their sacrifices. Propaganda to me is about manipulating the national sentiment to support bad causes. I know others will differ with me on this. Regards, Bob S. On 9/28/07, William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > - Original Message - > From: "Bob Sullivan" > Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > > > > Bill and Tom, > > > > What is a propaganda photo? > > The flag raising at Iwo Jima was an inspirational moment by design. > > It was a premature 'celebration' of victory, 2 days into a grim 30 day > > battle. > > The flag was raised to inspire those fighting on the island below. > > > > The photo took on a propaganda aura based on how the media handled it, > > the events themselves (a difficult battle), and the qualities of the > > photo itself. The US government used the photo as the centerpiece of > > a massive War Bond drive - the kind of promotional campaign that would > > make Nike look like a lightweight in comparison today. (Imagine > > financing Vietnam from 'donations' to War Bonds instead of deficit > > spending!) > > > > Propaganda is a loaded word. > > Technically, it is information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely > to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc, nothing > more, nothing less. > > I'm guessing that had the Vietnam war more going for it than pocket pool > ideology, it would have been more popular, I am sure. > > William Robb > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
- Original Message - From: "Bob Sullivan" Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > Bill and Tom, > > What is a propaganda photo? > The flag raising at Iwo Jima was an inspirational moment by design. > It was a premature 'celebration' of victory, 2 days into a grim 30 day > battle. > The flag was raised to inspire those fighting on the island below. > > The photo took on a propaganda aura based on how the media handled it, > the events themselves (a difficult battle), and the qualities of the > photo itself. The US government used the photo as the centerpiece of > a massive War Bond drive - the kind of promotional campaign that would > make Nike look like a lightweight in comparison today. (Imagine > financing Vietnam from 'donations' to War Bonds instead of deficit > spending!) > > Propaganda is a loaded word. Technically, it is information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc, nothing more, nothing less. I'm guessing that had the Vietnam war more going for it than pocket pool ideology, it would have been more popular, I am sure. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
On 9/28/07, Bob Sullivan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Bill and Tom, > > What is a propaganda photo? > The flag raising at Iwo Jima was an inspirational moment by design. > It was a premature 'celebration' of victory, 2 days into a grim 30 day battle. > The flag was raised to inspire those fighting on the island below. > > The photo took on a propaganda aura based on how the media handled it, > the events themselves (a difficult battle), and the qualities of the > photo itself. The US government used the photo as the centerpiece of > a massive War Bond drive - the kind of promotional campaign that would > make Nike look like a lightweight in comparison today. (Imagine > financing Vietnam from 'donations' to War Bonds instead of deficit > spending!) > > Propaganda is a loaded word. It may be a "loaded word", but IMHO, whether intended as propaganda or not (and as Rosenthal was there with the armed forces, it's hard to believe that he had no awareness that the photo could be used for "inspirational purposes"), in fact it was used to promote a cause (that of raising the war-weary spirits of Americans on the "home front" of WWII). It may have been a good cause, to be sure, but it was still propaganda. Good propaganda? I think so. But propaganda none-the-less... cheers, frank -- "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
Bill and Tom, What is a propaganda photo? The flag raising at Iwo Jima was an inspirational moment by design. It was a premature 'celebration' of victory, 2 days into a grim 30 day battle. The flag was raised to inspire those fighting on the island below. The photo took on a propaganda aura based on how the media handled it, the events themselves (a difficult battle), and the qualities of the photo itself. The US government used the photo as the centerpiece of a massive War Bond drive - the kind of promotional campaign that would make Nike look like a lightweight in comparison today. (Imagine financing Vietnam from 'donations' to War Bonds instead of deficit spending!) Propaganda is a loaded word. Regards, Bob S. On 9/27/07, William Robb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > - Original Message - > From: "graywolf" > Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > > > > > > > > If the Iwo Jima photo was taken in a studio in California is it an any > > less > > powerful image? Would it have less meaning to a people at war? It is easy > > to sit > > in our comfortable living rooms decades later and talk about it as if it > > were > > some kind of conspiracy, but it was a powerful wartime propaganda photo > > regardless of when and where and how it was taken. > > We should compare notes to see how many people called you out for listing > that photo as propoganda compared to me. > > William Robb > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
- Original Message - From: "graywolf" Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > > > If the Iwo Jima photo was taken in a studio in California is it an any > less > powerful image? Would it have less meaning to a people at war? It is easy > to sit > in our comfortable living rooms decades later and talk about it as if it > were > some kind of conspiracy, but it was a powerful wartime propaganda photo > regardless of when and where and how it was taken. We should compare notes to see how many people called you out for listing that photo as propoganda compared to me. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
They were most likely spent solid round shot, sort of like cast iron bowling balls. They hit the ground and then roll and bounce a long way until the come to a stop. They were designed to do that as the bouncing balls played havoc with massed troops. So Tom is correct in thinking many would wind up in a low point like that road, although I would think that that road was a long way beyond their impact point and they simply rolled into that cut. There is nothing in the photos to give size relationships but they are most likely 8, 12, or 16 pound balls as that was what most light field artillery was in those days, that road is very narrow because those balls are smaller than most folks would think. Tom C wrote: > > To your question... Where then are the craters from the canon balls that > must have landed *off* the road, in the likely softer soil? > > I would guess they don't really weigh THAT much and were moving at a > relatively low velocity. > > Another alternate explanation could possibly be that the road, being > relatively high, slightly sloped and comparatively smooth (less friction), > allowed the canon balls to roll to the low point when they hit the road. An > object in motion tends to stay in motion. Since they were likely all shot > from the same direction and I would guess, at a relatively oblique angle, > their momentum might be such to propel them off the road. > > Still thinking. :-) > > Tom C. > > >> From: "Kenneth Waller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" >> Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 23:50:24 -0400 >> >> I agree. >> >> BTW, if the balls actually landed on the road & weren't placed there, where >> are the craters? >> >> Kenneth Waller >> http://tinyurl.com/272u2f >> >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "graywolf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >> >> >>> Why is it so interesting? I see nothing that makes any difference to >>> anyone but >>> a few folks who want to be taken for pundits. The lighting shows that >> the >>> sun >>> was more overhead in the second photo, but if the photographer was into >>> faking >>> his photos, he could well have lied about the time he took them. It >>> reminds me >>> of the title to one of Shakespeare's plays, "Much ado about nothing". >>> >>> >>>>> Subject: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >>>>> >>>>> http://tinyurl.com/2oczre >>> -- >>> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >>> PDML@pdml.net >>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >>> follow the directions. >> >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >> follow the directions. > > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
Cotty wrote: > On 27/09/07, mike wilson, discombobulated, unleashed: > > >>(I really shouldn't have written that. Now Cotty will have the horn again.) > > > Those sentences give me the horn. > > (Might get my Derek and Clive DVD out tonight ;-) > Lobster for tea. Or maybe not. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
> Well I guess, my problem is that I consider news photos as editorial > illustrations, not some super meaningful documentation. Yes, I can see how that would be a problem and lead you into all sorts of difficulties. > Strangely without > captions those particular photos have no particular meaning > at all, That's true of almost all news / reportage photographs, almost by definition. What's your point? -- Bob > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of graywolf > Sent: 27 September 2007 18:09 > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > > Well I guess, my problem is that I consider news photos as editorial > illustrations, not some super meaningful documentation. > Strangely without > captions those particular photos have no particular meaning > at all, a dirt road > somewhere with a bunch of round stones. The are called > critics because they are > critical you have to take anything they say with a grain of salt. > > If the Iwo Jima photo was taken in a studio in California is > it an any less > powerful image? Would it have less meaning to a people at > war? It is easy to sit > in our comfortable living rooms decades later and talk about > it as if it were > some kind of conspiracy, but it was a powerful wartime > propaganda photo > regardless of when and where and how it was taken. > > The error comes in thinking of news photos as some kind of > archaeological > documentation made for later generations. They are not, nor > were they intended > as such. > > > Bob W wrote: > > it's important to challenge people who claim without evidence that > > important historical or journalistic photos, or writings or whatever > > are in some way fake or misleading. It's important because it is > > through history and news (which is after all only history > with the ink > > still wet) that we gain our understanding of the world and our place > > in it. It is through news and history that we learn, so as not to > > repeat earlier mistakes, and only by being able to trust the sources > > of history and news is that possible. > > > > There always seem to be claims of fakery swirling around some of the > > most important news photos - the flag on Iwo Jima, Capa's Falling > > Soldier, now this one. I'm sure I could think of more if I > put my mind > > to it. These claims, when false, undermine people's ability to trust > > news photography and play into the hands of people who wish to > > manipulate the news, history and us. > > > > On another level, if someone like Susan Sontag, a respected critic, > > was sloppy in the research on which she based an important > book which > > has influenced many people's views on news photography, then we need > > to know about that because it must affect the way we look at all her > > writing, and the many consequences of her writing. > > > > -- > > Bob > > > > > >> -Original Message- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > >> Behalf Of graywolf > >> Sent: 26 September 2007 22:45 > >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > >> Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > >> > >> Why is it so interesting? I see nothing that makes any > >> difference to anyone but > >> a few folks who want to be taken for pundits. The lighting > >> shows that the sun > >> was more overhead in the second photo, but if the > >> photographer was into faking > >> his photos, he could well have lied about the time he took > >> them. It reminds me > >> of the title to one of Shakespeare's plays, "Much ado about > > nothing". > >> > >>>> Subject: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > >>>> > >>>> http://tinyurl.com/2oczre > >> -- > >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > >> PDML@pdml.net > >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly > >> above and follow the directions. > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly > above and follow the directions. > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
On 27/09/07, mike wilson, discombobulated, unleashed: >(I really shouldn't have written that. Now Cotty will have the horn again.) Those sentences give me the horn. (Might get my Derek and Clive DVD out tonight ;-) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
Not to mention the fact that he was scared as hell because he was under fire. It's illogical that he would go around picking up heavy solid shot to arrange a photo shoot. Norm John Sessoms wrote: > I think the most likely explanation is the photograph of the cleared > road is the later one. There are two military reasons for clearing the > cannon balls from the road. > > First, the cannon balls may have been picked up by British soldiers and > fired back at the Russians by British artillery. The author cites > reports from other correspondents that the British did just that. > > Muzzle loading cannons don't require precisely fitted shells; the > wadding holds the ball in place until the cannon is fired. And the > British picked up the ones lying on the road because, soldiers being > soldiers, it required less work than digging 'em out of whatever muck > might have been in the ditches. > > That's also an argument for the photo of the cannon balls in the road > being the first one, since it's unlikely the soldiers would have > cooperated in such an unnecessary task of moving cannon balls into the > road so he could take a photograph of them, especially since they'd just > have to remove them again. > > Because the road would have to be cleared. That's the second military > reason. > > If you want to be able to move horse drawn artillery (or cavalry, or any > horse drawn equipment) down that road you've got to move those cannon > balls. Cannon balls in the road wouldn't be much danger to the wagon > wheels, but a horse could break a leg. > > And whether the British planned to move down that road or not, a good > officer would be prepared for that possibility. I understand that at the > company level at least the British did have some good officers. > > Good sergeants anyway. > > But you wouldn't need to move the cannon balls that were already off the > road. Again, Tommy ain't gonna' do any unnecessary work. > > Hence photo number two showing the cleared road with all those cannon > balls in the ditches. > > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
Well I guess, my problem is that I consider news photos as editorial illustrations, not some super meaningful documentation. Strangely without captions those particular photos have no particular meaning at all, a dirt road somewhere with a bunch of round stones. The are called critics because they are critical you have to take anything they say with a grain of salt. If the Iwo Jima photo was taken in a studio in California is it an any less powerful image? Would it have less meaning to a people at war? It is easy to sit in our comfortable living rooms decades later and talk about it as if it were some kind of conspiracy, but it was a powerful wartime propaganda photo regardless of when and where and how it was taken. The error comes in thinking of news photos as some kind of archaeological documentation made for later generations. They are not, nor were they intended as such. Bob W wrote: > it's important to challenge people who claim without evidence that > important historical or journalistic photos, or writings or whatever > are in some way fake or misleading. It's important because it is > through history and news (which is after all only history with the ink > still wet) that we gain our understanding of the world and our place > in it. It is through news and history that we learn, so as not to > repeat earlier mistakes, and only by being able to trust the sources > of history and news is that possible. > > There always seem to be claims of fakery swirling around some of the > most important news photos - the flag on Iwo Jima, Capa's Falling > Soldier, now this one. I'm sure I could think of more if I put my mind > to it. These claims, when false, undermine people's ability to trust > news photography and play into the hands of people who wish to > manipulate the news, history and us. > > On another level, if someone like Susan Sontag, a respected critic, > was sloppy in the research on which she based an important book which > has influenced many people's views on news photography, then we need > to know about that because it must affect the way we look at all her > writing, and the many consequences of her writing. > > -- > Bob > > >> -Original Message- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >> Behalf Of graywolf >> Sent: 26 September 2007 22:45 >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >> >> Why is it so interesting? I see nothing that makes any >> difference to anyone but >> a few folks who want to be taken for pundits. The lighting >> shows that the sun >> was more overhead in the second photo, but if the >> photographer was into faking >> his photos, he could well have lied about the time he took >> them. It reminds me >> of the title to one of Shakespeare's plays, "Much ado about > nothing". >> >>>> Subject: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >>>> >>>> http://tinyurl.com/2oczre >> -- >> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> PDML@pdml.net >> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly >> above and follow the directions. >> >> > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
My point was that those that hadn't exploded wouldn't and would still look like solid shot. The would weigh considerably less than solid shot and would be even less likely than solid shot to create craters at the end of their flight.. Historically Russian shells were notoriously unreliable. (In an age when all shells were unreliable that's saying something). I guess you have to spell everything out. John Sessoms wrote: > From: "P. J. Alling" > > >> If you read the article a quote from the photographer about a fuse >> would imply at least some were exploding shells, >> > > > Some, but not all, > > ... and exploding shells of that day often did not explode (or exploded > too soon). Fused shells were not reliable. For one thing, there was a > good chance the fuse would just get pulled out if the shell hadn't > exploded by the time it hit the ground. > > But you can see that most of what's in the photos is solid shot. Any > exploding shells that had actually exploded wouldn't look like solid > shot, although the ones that didn't might. > > -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
From: "P. J. Alling" > If you read the article a quote from the photographer about a fuse > would imply at least some were exploding shells, Some, but not all, ... and exploding shells of that day often did not explode (or exploded too soon). Fused shells were not reliable. For one thing, there was a good chance the fuse would just get pulled out if the shell hadn't exploded by the time it hit the ground. But you can see that most of what's in the photos is solid shot. Any exploding shells that had actually exploded wouldn't look like solid shot, although the ones that didn't might. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
From: "Tom C" > I thought it was an interesting study in human nature, photography > aside. > > We make assumptions and draw conclusions from what we see, or we > parrot what we hear or read, and make statements as if they are > indisputable, yet thinking a little harder... > > To your question... Where then are the craters from the canon balls > that must have landed *off* the road, in the likely softer soil? > It doesn't look like soft soil; looks like hard rocky dirt. Cannon balls would bounce and roll until their momentum was spent. Artillery didn't do much indirect fire in those days. Craters usually come from exploding shells. That looks like all solid shot. > I would guess they don't really weigh THAT much and were moving at a > relatively low velocity. > > Another alternate explanation could possibly be that the road, being > relatively high, slightly sloped and comparatively smooth (less > friction), allowed the canon balls to roll to the low point when they > hit the road. An object in motion tends to stay in motion. Since > they were likely all shot from the same direction and I would guess, > at a relatively oblique angle, their momentum might be such to propel > them off the road. I think the most likely explanation is the photograph of the cleared road is the later one. There are two military reasons for clearing the cannon balls from the road. First, the cannon balls may have been picked up by British soldiers and fired back at the Russians by British artillery. The author cites reports from other correspondents that the British did just that. Muzzle loading cannons don't require precisely fitted shells; the wadding holds the ball in place until the cannon is fired. And the British picked up the ones lying on the road because, soldiers being soldiers, it required less work than digging 'em out of whatever muck might have been in the ditches. That's also an argument for the photo of the cannon balls in the road being the first one, since it's unlikely the soldiers would have cooperated in such an unnecessary task of moving cannon balls into the road so he could take a photograph of them, especially since they'd just have to remove them again. Because the road would have to be cleared. That's the second military reason. If you want to be able to move horse drawn artillery (or cavalry, or any horse drawn equipment) down that road you've got to move those cannon balls. Cannon balls in the road wouldn't be much danger to the wagon wheels, but a horse could break a leg. And whether the British planned to move down that road or not, a good officer would be prepared for that possibility. I understand that at the company level at least the British did have some good officers. Good sergeants anyway. But you wouldn't need to move the cannon balls that were already off the road. Again, Tommy ain't gonna' do any unnecessary work. Hence photo number two showing the cleared road with all those cannon balls in the ditches. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
> > From: Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 2007/09/27 Thu PM 12:04:45 GMT > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > > mike wilson wrote: > > >But. I love the comment near the bottom referring to removal > because of commanders not wanting their tanks to run over cannon balls. > > Tanks? In the Crimean war? Surely the fighter-bombers would have taken > them out easily? > ;-) Not Yak-3 just Yak? (I really shouldn't have written that. Now Cotty will have the horn again.) > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. > - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
mike wilson wrote: >But. I love the comment near the bottom referring to removal because of commanders not wanting their tanks to run over cannon balls. Tanks? In the Crimean war? Surely the fighter-bombers would have taken them out easily? ;-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
For some the world began the day they were born and will end the day they die, and has always been as it is. mike wilson wrote: >> From: graywolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Date: 2007/09/26 Wed PM 09:44:39 GMT >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >> Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >> >> Why is it so interesting? I see nothing that makes any difference to anyone >> but >> a few folks who want to be taken for pundits. The lighting shows that the >> sun >> was more overhead in the second photo, but if the photographer was into >> faking >> his photos, he could well have lied about the time he took them. It reminds >> me >> of the title to one of Shakespeare's plays, "Much ado about nothing". >> > > But. I love the comment near the bottom referring to removal because of > commanders not wanting their tanks to run over cannon balls. > > >> >>>> Subject: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >>>> >>>> http://tinyurl.com/2oczre >>>> > > > > - > Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email > Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam > > > -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
If you read the article a quote from the photographer about a fuse would imply at least some were exploding shells, Doug Franklin wrote: > Tom C wrote: > > >> To your question... Where then are the craters from the canon balls that >> must have landed *off* the road, in the likely softer soil? >> >> I would guess they don't really weigh THAT much and were moving at a >> relatively low velocity. >> > > How much is "THAT" much? :-) They could easily be ten or fifteen pounds > each, even if they're small. However, they were most likely solid shot. > Anything with a charge in it was "interesting" to harvest. > > Without getting into too much detail, the shot was most often fired from > close to the ground on a fairly low angle. Solid shot in that situation > had a propensity to skip for a while and then roll across the ground for > quite a distance after the first impact, depending on what it hit in the > meantime. It wasn't a good idea to have your ranks lined up very deeply > when facing that sort of artillery. > > Even at low velocity, getting hit with a ten or fifteen pound wad iron > couldn't be much fun. Heck, the muzzle velocity was low enough on some > of those guns that if the shot was anywhere near right at you, you could > watch the ball coming. > > -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
> > From: graywolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 2007/09/26 Wed PM 09:44:39 GMT > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > > Why is it so interesting? I see nothing that makes any difference to anyone > but > a few folks who want to be taken for pundits. The lighting shows that the sun > was more overhead in the second photo, but if the photographer was into > faking > his photos, he could well have lied about the time he took them. It reminds > me > of the title to one of Shakespeare's plays, "Much ado about nothing". But. I love the comment near the bottom referring to removal because of commanders not wanting their tanks to run over cannon balls. > > > >> Subject: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > >> > >> http://tinyurl.com/2oczre - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
Tom C wrote: > To your question... Where then are the craters from the canon balls that > must have landed *off* the road, in the likely softer soil? > > I would guess they don't really weigh THAT much and were moving at a > relatively low velocity. How much is "THAT" much? :-) They could easily be ten or fifteen pounds each, even if they're small. However, they were most likely solid shot. Anything with a charge in it was "interesting" to harvest. Without getting into too much detail, the shot was most often fired from close to the ground on a fairly low angle. Solid shot in that situation had a propensity to skip for a while and then roll across the ground for quite a distance after the first impact, depending on what it hit in the meantime. It wasn't a good idea to have your ranks lined up very deeply when facing that sort of artillery. Even at low velocity, getting hit with a ten or fifteen pound wad iron couldn't be much fun. Heck, the muzzle velocity was low enough on some of those guns that if the shot was anywhere near right at you, you could watch the ball coming. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
>>You've obviously never played golf on a sand green course. >>William Robb >> > > What - are the laws of physics suspended there? :-) > Tom C. Watch out, I think it's a trap. ;/} Kenneth Waller http://tinyurl.com/272u2f - Original Message - From: "Tom C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 12:49 AM Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > >- Original Message - >>From: "Tom C" >>Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >> >> >> > >> > Another alternate explanation could possibly be that the road, being >> > relatively high, slightly sloped and comparatively smooth (less >>friction), >> > allowed the canon balls to roll to the low point when they hit the >> > road. >> > An >> > object in motion tends to stay in motion. Since they were likely all >>shot >> > from the same direction and I would guess, at a relatively oblique >>angle, >> > their momentum might be such to propel them off the road. >> > >> > Still thinking. :-) >> >>You've obviously never played golf on a sand green course. >> >>William Robb >> > > What - are the laws of physics suspended there? :-) > > Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
>- Original Message - >From: "Tom C" >Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > > > > > > Another alternate explanation could possibly be that the road, being > > relatively high, slightly sloped and comparatively smooth (less >friction), > > allowed the canon balls to roll to the low point when they hit the road. > > An > > object in motion tends to stay in motion. Since they were likely all >shot > > from the same direction and I would guess, at a relatively oblique >angle, > > their momentum might be such to propel them off the road. > > > > Still thinking. :-) > >You've obviously never played golf on a sand green course. > >William Robb > What - are the laws of physics suspended there? :-) Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
- Original Message - From: "Tom C" Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > > Another alternate explanation could possibly be that the road, being > relatively high, slightly sloped and comparatively smooth (less friction), > allowed the canon balls to roll to the low point when they hit the road. > An > object in motion tends to stay in motion. Since they were likely all shot > from the same direction and I would guess, at a relatively oblique angle, > their momentum might be such to propel them off the road. > > Still thinking. :-) You've obviously never played golf on a sand green course. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
I thought it was an interesting study in human nature, photography aside. We make assumptions and draw conclusions from what we see, or we parrot what we hear or read, and make statements as if they are indisputable, yet thinking a little harder... To your question... Where then are the craters from the canon balls that must have landed *off* the road, in the likely softer soil? I would guess they don't really weigh THAT much and were moving at a relatively low velocity. Another alternate explanation could possibly be that the road, being relatively high, slightly sloped and comparatively smooth (less friction), allowed the canon balls to roll to the low point when they hit the road. An object in motion tends to stay in motion. Since they were likely all shot from the same direction and I would guess, at a relatively oblique angle, their momentum might be such to propel them off the road. Still thinking. :-) Tom C. >From: "Kenneth Waller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List >To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" >Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 23:50:24 -0400 > >I agree. > >BTW, if the balls actually landed on the road & weren't placed there, where >are the craters? > >Kenneth Waller >http://tinyurl.com/272u2f > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "graywolf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > > > > Why is it so interesting? I see nothing that makes any difference to > > anyone but > > a few folks who want to be taken for pundits. The lighting shows that >the > > sun > > was more overhead in the second photo, but if the photographer was into > > faking > > his photos, he could well have lied about the time he took them. It > > reminds me > > of the title to one of Shakespeare's plays, "Much ado about nothing". > > > > > >>> Subject: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > >>> > >>> http://tinyurl.com/2oczre > > > > -- > > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > > PDML@pdml.net > > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > > follow the directions. > > >-- >PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List >PDML@pdml.net >http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net >to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and >follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
I agree. BTW, if the balls actually landed on the road & weren't placed there, where are the craters? Kenneth Waller http://tinyurl.com/272u2f - Original Message - From: "graywolf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > Why is it so interesting? I see nothing that makes any difference to > anyone but > a few folks who want to be taken for pundits. The lighting shows that the > sun > was more overhead in the second photo, but if the photographer was into > faking > his photos, he could well have lied about the time he took them. It > reminds me > of the title to one of Shakespeare's plays, "Much ado about nothing". > > >>> Subject: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >>> >>> http://tinyurl.com/2oczre > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
it's important to challenge people who claim without evidence that important historical or journalistic photos, or writings or whatever are in some way fake or misleading. It's important because it is through history and news (which is after all only history with the ink still wet) that we gain our understanding of the world and our place in it. It is through news and history that we learn, so as not to repeat earlier mistakes, and only by being able to trust the sources of history and news is that possible. There always seem to be claims of fakery swirling around some of the most important news photos - the flag on Iwo Jima, Capa's Falling Soldier, now this one. I'm sure I could think of more if I put my mind to it. These claims, when false, undermine people's ability to trust news photography and play into the hands of people who wish to manipulate the news, history and us. On another level, if someone like Susan Sontag, a respected critic, was sloppy in the research on which she based an important book which has influenced many people's views on news photography, then we need to know about that because it must affect the way we look at all her writing, and the many consequences of her writing. -- Bob > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of graywolf > Sent: 26 September 2007 22:45 > To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List > Subject: Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > > Why is it so interesting? I see nothing that makes any > difference to anyone but > a few folks who want to be taken for pundits. The lighting > shows that the sun > was more overhead in the second photo, but if the > photographer was into faking > his photos, he could well have lied about the time he took > them. It reminds me > of the title to one of Shakespeare's plays, "Much ado about nothing". > > > >> Subject: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > >> > >> http://tinyurl.com/2oczre > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly > above and follow the directions. > > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
Why is it so interesting? I see nothing that makes any difference to anyone but a few folks who want to be taken for pundits. The lighting shows that the sun was more overhead in the second photo, but if the photographer was into faking his photos, he could well have lied about the time he took them. It reminds me of the title to one of Shakespeare's plays, "Much ado about nothing". >> Subject: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times >> >> http://tinyurl.com/2oczre -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
That's absolutely fascinating, thanks for posting it. -- Bob > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Tom C > Sent: 26 September 2007 17:46 > To: pdml@pdml.net > Subject: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times > > http://tinyurl.com/2oczre > > Tom C. > -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
Interesting. Tom C wrote: > http://tinyurl.com/2oczre > > Tom C. > > > > -- Remember, it’s pillage then burn. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Chicken or Egg Photo Story - NY Times
Tom C wrote: >http://tinyurl.com/2oczre Wow, what a great read! Thanks, Tom. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
