subject:"Re\: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested"

No, I'm blaming the right wing war against public education that sprang 
up to resist the Supreme Court's Brown v. Board of Education ruling for 
declining school performance.


From: David Parsons

Are you blaming integration for declining school performance?

On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 2:56 PM, John Sessoms  wrote:

From: Boris Liberman


On 4/10/2013 9:38 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote:


We've had universal public educate for more than 200 years. It didn't
work.



It worked very well between approx 1950 and 1980 in Soviet Union.



Worked well right here in the U.S.A. between the Great Depression &
Reaganomics. Worked for the majority anyway.

The breakdown started when the Supreme Court decided that "Separate but
Equal" was in no way ever going to be "equal", so it was no longer gonna' be
allowed to be "separate" either.


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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-11 Thread Daniel J. Matyola

It still works well in the wealthy suburbs.  That's not the point.

Dan
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 2:56 PM, John Sessoms  wrote:
> From: Boris Liberman
>>
>> On 4/10/2013 9:38 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>>>
>>> We've had universal public educate for more than 200 years. It didn't
>>> work.
>>
>>
>> It worked very well between approx 1950 and 1980 in Soviet Union.
>
>
> Worked well right here in the U.S.A. between the Great Depression &
> Reaganomics. Worked for the majority anyway.
>
> The breakdown started when the Supreme Court decided that "Separate but
> Equal" was in no way ever going to be "equal", so it was no longer gonna' be
> allowed to be "separate" either.
>
> --
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-11 Thread Daniel J. Matyola

Believe it or not, some progress is possible, even here in New Jersey.
 The problem is entrenched power in the local school boards and the
unions.  We spend vast amounts of money on the public education
system;  we need to demand better results.

Dan M
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 12:30 AM, Boris Liberman  wrote:
> Daniel, all-public schooling is not reducing to LCD. It is if you don't
> invest and your state (as in country, not as one of 50 United State) does
> not fully backs the educational system by funds, equipment, etc. This is
> huge investment with very slow return - you'll see returns like I said - in
> order 20 years after you invested... Hence I don't see anyone who may be in
> position to initiate such a change/investment do so. Not in current
> political climate of modern western countries...
>
> On 4/11/2013 7:16 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:
>>
>> I don' understand your comment or how it relates to anything I said.
>> Dan Matyola
>> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 12:09 AM, Boris Liberman 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Daniel, consider this - if your country invests 1 trln (yep, trillion)
>>> dollars in educational system this year, they will see the outcome in,
>>> may
>>> be like 20 years - 12 years of school, 3-4 years - first degree, 4-6
>>> years -
>>> second and/or third degree... So this kind of investment is extremely
>>> risky
>>> by modern measure. Further, a politician (or a group of them) responsible
>>> for this act are very unlikely to be mentioned in the Great Books of
>>> History... So, instead they do cheap populism and "no child left behind"
>>> stuff... The slippery slope will get progressively more slippery...
>>>
>>> On 4/10/2013 8:01 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:


 " If we want a school system that works, we need to switch to an
 all-public model."

 How will reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator make the
 system "work"?>
 Dan Matyola
 http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


 On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Aahz Maruch  wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 09, 2013, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> This discussion seems to assume that the existence of charter shoals
>> and voucher systems is up for debate. It's not. They're operating and,
>> in many places, succeeding. We still have much to learn about how
>> they should be regulated and on what basis they should be allowed to
>> compete, but going back to a schools system that is operated only by
>> the government isn't going to happen. That's history.
>
>
>
> Only if we want to continue with a failing school system.  If we want a
> school system that works, we need to switch to an all-public model
> (with,
> of course, some caveats):
>
>
>
> http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/
>
> You have valid points about the entrenched interests, but vouchers and
> charter schools are not the answer, if only because they just won't
> take
> the real problem children (behavior disorders and physical/mental
> disabilities).
> --
> Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
> http://rule6.info/
> <*>   <*>   <*>
> Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
>
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> follow the directions.



>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>
>
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-11 Thread David Parsons

Are you blaming integration for declining school performance?

On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 2:56 PM, John Sessoms  wrote:
> From: Boris Liberman
>>
>> On 4/10/2013 9:38 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>>>
>>> We've had universal public educate for more than 200 years. It didn't
>>> work.
>>
>>
>> It worked very well between approx 1950 and 1980 in Soviet Union.
>
>
> Worked well right here in the U.S.A. between the Great Depression &
> Reaganomics. Worked for the majority anyway.
>
> The breakdown started when the Supreme Court decided that "Separate but
> Equal" was in no way ever going to be "equal", so it was no longer gonna' be
> allowed to be "separate" either.
>
>
> --
> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> PDML@pdml.net
> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
> follow the directions.



-- 
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-11 Thread Bob Sullivan

My G*d John, you're such a cave man!
Have you got a 'Flintstones' lunchbox too.
Regards,  Bob S.

On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 1:56 PM, John Sessoms  wrote:
> From: Boris Liberman
>>
>> On 4/10/2013 9:38 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>>>
>>> We've had universal public educate for more than 200 years. It didn't
>>> work.
>>
>>
>> It worked very well between approx 1950 and 1980 in Soviet Union.
>
>
> Worked well right here in the U.S.A. between the Great Depression &
> Reaganomics. Worked for the majority anyway.
>
> The breakdown started when the Supreme Court decided that "Separate but
> Equal" was in no way ever going to be "equal", so it was no longer gonna' be
> allowed to be "separate" either.
>
> --
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> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frgRNN7pF30

From: Eactivist


Well, the gong on the gong show went bong. Actually, what I mean was
boing!

Okay, Larry, I'll bite, tell me, what is the first?

Marnie aka Doe ;-)

In a message dated 4/10/2013 3:19:21 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
l...@red4est.com writes:
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 06:09:43PM -0400, eactiv...@aol.com wrote:

Bong as in  the bong show, duh.


Do you mean the Gong show?

They say that as  you age, the memory is the second thing to go.




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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested


From: Boris Liberman

On 4/10/2013 9:38 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote:

We've had universal public educate for more than 200 years. It didn't work.


It worked very well between approx 1950 and 1980 in Soviet Union.


Worked well right here in the U.S.A. between the Great Depression & 
Reaganomics. Worked for the majority anyway.


The breakdown started when the Supreme Court decided that "Separate but 
Equal" was in no way ever going to be "equal", so it was no longer 
gonna' be allowed to be "separate" either.


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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested


Sometimes I think irony is just completely wasted on you guys.

From: "Daniel J. Matyola"

"Do you mean like the right to not have the government telling you
when, where, why & how to pray, along with who to pray to?"

I have many complaints about our government, but they have never told
me when, where, why and how to pray, or to whom to pray."

Dan
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 2:11 PM, John Sessoms  wrote:

Do you mean like the right to not have the government telling you when,
where, why & how to pray, along with who to pray to?


From: "Daniel J. Matyola"


Including "under god" in the pledge of allegiance is hardly "worship."
 It is mostly a recognition that Americans "are endowed by their
Creator with certain unalienable Rights" that can not be taken away by
the government.
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:53 PM,   wrote:


I don't believe in the concept of worship.

Methinks your  perspective is skewed by your own lens.

Marnie aka Doe :-)

In  a message dated 4/9/2013 5:49:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
pnstenqu...@comcast.net writes:

Methinks they doth protest too much



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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-10 Thread Bill


On 10/04/2013 1:49 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:

I don't point fingers at other states, let alone other nations.
Unfortunately, all humans are subject to corruption, and some will
steal as much as they can if there is no fear of prosecution.

If you believe that your country is free of corruption, or morally
superior to others, you are of course entitled to that opinion.
Is the bar set so high that perfection is demanded before comment can be 
made? If this is the case, we should both shut up, but you first, Canada 
ranks better than the USA on the corrupt government scale, and we have, 
by Canadian standards, an especially corrupt government at the moment.


If you think that corruption is the only problem with education, I
would respecfully disagree.


Corruption is the problem that feeds the other ones. Fix that one, the 
others will fix themselves.


bill

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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

Daniel, all-public schooling is not reducing to LCD. It is if you don't 
invest and your state (as in country, not as one of 50 United State) 
does not fully backs the educational system by funds, equipment, etc. 
This is huge investment with very slow return - you'll see returns like 
I said - in order 20 years after you invested... Hence I don't see 
anyone who may be in position to initiate such a change/investment do 
so. Not in current political climate of modern western countries...


On 4/11/2013 7:16 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:

I don' understand your comment or how it relates to anything I said.
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 12:09 AM, Boris Liberman  wrote:

Daniel, consider this - if your country invests 1 trln (yep, trillion)
dollars in educational system this year, they will see the outcome in, may
be like 20 years - 12 years of school, 3-4 years - first degree, 4-6 years -
second and/or third degree... So this kind of investment is extremely risky
by modern measure. Further, a politician (or a group of them) responsible
for this act are very unlikely to be mentioned in the Great Books of
History... So, instead they do cheap populism and "no child left behind"
stuff... The slippery slope will get progressively more slippery...

On 4/10/2013 8:01 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:


" If we want a school system that works, we need to switch to an
all-public model."

How will reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator make the
system "work"?>
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Aahz Maruch  wrote:


On Tue, Apr 09, 2013, Paul Stenquist wrote:



This discussion seems to assume that the existence of charter shoals
and voucher systems is up for debate. It's not. They're operating and,
in many places, succeeding. We still have much to learn about how
they should be regulated and on what basis they should be allowed to
compete, but going back to a schools system that is operated only by
the government isn't going to happen. That's history.



Only if we want to continue with a failing school system.  If we want a
school system that works, we need to switch to an all-public model (with,
of course, some caveats):


http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

You have valid points about the entrenched interests, but vouchers and
charter schools are not the answer, if only because they just won't take
the real problem children (behavior disorders and physical/mental
disabilities).
--
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http://rule6.info/
<*>   <*>   <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html

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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested


On 4/10/2013 1:18 AM, Bob W wrote:

That's not god, that's Raoul

B


Whoa! You talk to the Great Capablanca... Next time you do - ask him 
what does he think about the quick chess invented by Mr. Kasparov...


Boris



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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested


On 4/11/2013 12:43 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:

The next year, I was in the class where all the Catholics and all the
Eastern Orthodox got out early every Tuesday for religious
instruction.  The one Jewish boy in the class and I did our homework
on Tuesday afternoons.


Well, I know that socialist/communist doctrine is not considered a 
religious one, but IMO it is. So while at school I had to attend a 
number of so called "meetings"... Especially towards the end of the 
school when I had to get to komsomol, because otherwise I couldn't be 
accepted in pretty much any university... But to cut the long story 
short - during these meetings me and some of my class mates played blind 
chess with great enjoyment of the process. You play without a board - 
totally in your mind's eye. Then either you loose by rules of the game 
or you make sufficiently many wrong moves to suggest that you don't hold 
the position in your head.


Boris



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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

I don' understand your comment or how it relates to anything I said.
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 12:09 AM, Boris Liberman  wrote:
> Daniel, consider this - if your country invests 1 trln (yep, trillion)
> dollars in educational system this year, they will see the outcome in, may
> be like 20 years - 12 years of school, 3-4 years - first degree, 4-6 years -
> second and/or third degree... So this kind of investment is extremely risky
> by modern measure. Further, a politician (or a group of them) responsible
> for this act are very unlikely to be mentioned in the Great Books of
> History... So, instead they do cheap populism and "no child left behind"
> stuff... The slippery slope will get progressively more slippery...
>
> On 4/10/2013 8:01 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:
>>
>> " If we want a school system that works, we need to switch to an
>> all-public model."
>>
>> How will reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator make the
>> system "work"?>
>> Dan Matyola
>> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Aahz Maruch  wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 09, 2013, Paul Stenquist wrote:


 This discussion seems to assume that the existence of charter shoals
 and voucher systems is up for debate. It's not. They're operating and,
 in many places, succeeding. We still have much to learn about how
 they should be regulated and on what basis they should be allowed to
 compete, but going back to a schools system that is operated only by
 the government isn't going to happen. That's history.
>>>
>>>
>>> Only if we want to continue with a failing school system.  If we want a
>>> school system that works, we need to switch to an all-public model (with,
>>> of course, some caveats):
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/
>>>
>>> You have valid points about the entrenched interests, but vouchers and
>>> charter schools are not the answer, if only because they just won't take
>>> the real problem children (behavior disorders and physical/mental
>>> disabilities).
>>> --
>>> Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
>>> http://rule6.info/
>>><*>   <*>   <*>
>>> Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
>>>
>>> --
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>>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
>>> follow the directions.
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested


On 4/10/2013 9:38 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote:

We've had universal public educate for more than 200 years. It didn't work.


It worked very well between approx 1950 and 1980 in Soviet Union.


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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

Daniel, consider this - if your country invests 1 trln (yep, trillion)
dollars in educational system this year, they will see the outcome in,
may be like 20 years - 12 years of school, 3-4 years - first degree, 4-6
years - second and/or third degree... So this kind of investment is
extremely risky by modern measure. Further, a politician (or a group of
them) responsible for this act are very unlikely to be mentioned in the
Great Books of History... So, instead they do cheap populism and "no
child left behind" stuff... The slippery slope will get progressively
more slippery...

On 4/10/2013 8:01 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:

" If we want a school system that works, we need to switch to an
all-public model."

How will reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator make the
system "work"?>
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Aahz Maruch wrote:

On Tue, Apr 09, 2013, Paul Stenquist wrote:

This discussion seems to assume that the existence of charter shoals
and voucher systems is up for debate. It's not. They're operating and,
in many places, succeeding. We still have much to learn about how
they should be regulated and on what basis they should be allowed to
compete, but going back to a schools system that is operated only by
the government isn't going to happen. That's history.

Only if we want to continue with a failing school system. If we want a
school system that works, we need to switch to an all-public model (with,
of course, some caveats):

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

You have valid points about the entrenched interests, but vouchers and
charter schools are not the answer, if only because they just won't take
the real problem children (behavior disorders and physical/mental
disabilities).
--
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/
<*> <*> <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html

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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

On 4/10/2013 6:10 PM, Aahz Maruch wrote:

Only if we want to continue with a failing school system. If we want a
school system that works, we need to switch to an all-public model (with,
of course, some caveats):

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

I opine that Finland schools are not that successful as this article
aims to present. Consider this page:

http://www.imo-official.org/results.aspx

You will see that Finland scores between 57 and 72 in the last 3 years
is International Math Olympiad (IMO). Who scores first - China and Russia.

By the way Israel improved from 53rd place in 2010 through 23 to 31 in
2011 and 2012 respectively. I happen to know personally two very fine
gentlemen who helped make this happen (similarly in IPhO (physics) ).

Well, naturally, IMO is not the measure as the IMO itself is a very
special kind of sport. However, if with all that might Finnish system
cannot come up with the group of 6 really bright kids to solve these
math problems - then the system either doesn't want to do so or cannot
do so.

If they can't but want to - they might have some bugs in the system. If
they don't want (which is legit) it means that if next Newton or Leibniz
is born in Finland - we'll never know. That's a mighty shame.

Further, two very interesting quotes for you:

Quote #1:

"For Sahlberg what matters is that in Finland all teachers and
administrators are given prestige, decent pay, and a lot of
responsibility. A master's degree is required to enter the profession,
and teacher training programs are among the most selective professional
schools in the country. If a teacher is bad, it is the principal's
responsibility to notice and deal with it."

Quote #2 (just next paragraph really):

"And while Americans love to talk about competition, Sahlberg points out
that nothing makes Finns more uncomfortable. In his book Sahlberg quotes
a line from Finnish writer named Samuli Paronen: "Real winners do not
compete." "

Without being overly politically correct - tell me, Aahz - which one of
these two statements is total bullshit? Because they contradict one
another. It takes lots of effort to complete two university degrees,
then I suppose pass certain very serious tests, have a goal in front of
you being "given prestige, decent pay, and a lot of responsibility" and
then being totally not "about competition"...

It has nothing to do with being American or non-American. It is about
being human. Social life is mostly competition or may be I am missing
something very basic here.

Another interesting quote:

"In fact, since academic excellence wasn't a particular priority on the
Finnish to-do list, when Finland's students scored so high on the first
PISA survey in 2001, many Finns thought the results must be a mistake.
But subsequent PISA tests confirmed that Finland -- unlike, say, very
similar countries such as Norway -- was producing academic excellence
through its particular policy focus on equity."

This in fact may explain why Finland scores so low in IMO. They simply
don't hold things such IMO or IPhO (physics) to be of any importance.
But then don't tell me about academic excellence, thank you very much.

Now, you might notice something entirely different. Finland does show an
excellent example of very good (if not very excellent) educational
system that is totally under aegis of the state. State of Finland sees
it as its own goal, responsibility and area of vested interest to have
the educational system as per the state's own notions.

This by the way was the same education system I grew up with. It had its
flaws, but it wasn't half as bad as what I am seeing right now. And
believe me my teacher of Algebra, Geometry, Physics, Astronomy and
Informatics (all 5 being separate subjects during last two years in
school) was amazingly good. Notice - it wasn't public school without any
in-depth classes, etc. It was your regular average school. Further,
thanks to my Russian and Literature teacher I can still quote Pushkin
from memory. Thanks to my English teacher I am writing this message,
though of course I had to invest a lot of my time after I finished
school... I can probably continue this list as well...

Boris

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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

2013-04-10 Thread kwaller


Discussing our various
feelings about religion in public life is benign, and, I believe
helpful to understanding each others perspective


And belongs on another mailing list. Not one for photography!

Kenneth Waller
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller

- Original Message - 
From: "Daniel J. Matyola" 

Subject: Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested



No one is trying to convert anyone else, Paul.  Discussing our various
feelings about religion in public life is benign, and, I believe
helpful to understanding each others perspective.

Dan
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Paul Stenquist  
wrote:


I'm going to avoid this thread going forward. I don't think any of us are 
going to achieve conversions. In the past we've avoided religious 
discussions. That was good policy.


Paul



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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

Daniel, you and I may have a communication breakdown here. For even a 
split second did I _not_ talk about the education being compulsory or not.


If your system does not seriously challenge the slackers then you'll be 
having lots of trouble when they finish school.


On 4/10/2013 4:57 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:

"what is the interest of the pupil. If he or she want to learn"

So, if we eliminate compulsory education, and let the slackers drop
out, we will have a better school system?

Dan
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 12:07 AM, Boris Liberman  wrote:

what is the interest of the pupil. If he or she want to learn




Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola




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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013, eactiv...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Well, the gong on the gong show went bong.   Actually, what I mean was 
> boing!
> 
> Okay, Larry, I'll bite, tell  me, what is the first?

You mean, "Who's on first?"
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested


On Apr 10, 2013, at 9:02 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 06:57:46AM -0400, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>> 
>> On Apr 10, 2013, at 12:07 AM, Boris Liberman  wrote:
>> 
>>> On 4/9/2013 9:30 PM, Larry Colen wrote:
 Because, simply put, the problem isn't the schools. The problem is at
 home. Children who come from families that put a high priority on
 education do well in school.  If kids see their parents reading in
 their free time, they will consider reading a viable leisure time
 activity. If they see their parents watching TV, getting drunk etc.
 that's what they will consider normal.
>>> 
>> 
>> Very true. But unfortunately many of today's parents won't provide that kind 
>> of home environment, and if we merely dismiss their children as uneducable 
>> we sustain that model. There are places where the schools have to take over 
>> and do a better job. Detroit, for example. 
> 
> Be careful what you say.  Aparantly some newscaster on MSNBC
> said something very similar and is being roundly denounced 
> by a wide swath of the population for expressing that view.
> 
I can say what I want about schools. I only have to be careful when talking 
about car companies:-).

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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 06:57:46AM -0400, Paul Stenquist wrote:
> 
> On Apr 10, 2013, at 12:07 AM, Boris Liberman  wrote:
> 
> > On 4/9/2013 9:30 PM, Larry Colen wrote:
> >> Because, simply put, the problem isn't the schools. The problem is at
> >> home. Children who come from families that put a high priority on
> >> education do well in school.  If kids see their parents reading in
> >> their free time, they will consider reading a viable leisure time
> >> activity. If they see their parents watching TV, getting drunk etc.
> >> that's what they will consider normal.
> > 
> 
> Very true. But unfortunately many of today's parents won't provide that kind 
> of home environment, and if we merely dismiss their children as uneducable we 
> sustain that model. There are places where the schools have to take over and 
> do a better job. Detroit, for example. 

Be careful what you say.  Aparantly some newscaster on MSNBC
said something very similar and is being roundly denounced 
by a wide swath of the population for expressing that view.

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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 08:03:19PM -0400, eactiv...@aol.com wrote:
> Well, the gong on the gong show went bong.   Actually, what I mean was 
> boing!
> 
> Okay, Larry, I'll bite, tell  me, what is the first?

I dunno. I forgot years ago.

> 
> Marnie aka Doe ;-)
> 
> In a message dated  4/10/2013 3:19:21 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
> l...@red4est.com writes:
> On Wed,  Apr 10, 2013 at 06:09:43PM -0400, eactiv...@aol.com wrote:
> > Bong as in  the bong show, duh.
> 
> Do you mean the Gong show?
> 
> They say that as  you age, the memory is the second thing to go.  
> 
> 
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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

2013-04-10 Thread Eactivist

Well, the gong on the gong show went bong.   Actually, what I mean was 
boing!

Okay, Larry, I'll bite, tell  me, what is the first?

Marnie aka Doe ;-)

In a message dated  4/10/2013 3:19:21 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
l...@red4est.com writes:
On Wed,  Apr 10, 2013 at 06:09:43PM -0400, eactiv...@aol.com wrote:
> Bong as in  the bong show, duh.

Do you mean the Gong show?

They say that as  you age, the memory is the second thing to go.  


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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

2013-04-10 Thread knarftheria...@gmail.com

I don't dislike theists at all. I disagree with them on an issue that is of far 
more importance to them than it is to me.

What I do take issue with is people trying (quite wrongly) to tell me what I 
~do~ believe:

"Atheism is a religion just like any other."

No, actually it's not.

"You really do believe in god, you are simply in denial." 

Sorry, I do not, as much as you may want me to.

"You are an atheist because you're angry with god."

No, I can't be angry at something I do no believe in.

"Lack of belief is the same as belief, it is a type of faith."

As Bob W. quite capably explained lack of belief is the opposite of belief.

And so on.

But as for theists themselves, I don't dislike them at all...

Cheers,
frank


--- Original Message ---

From: Paul Stenquist 
Sent: April 10, 2013 4/10/13
To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 

Yes, because that works both ways. Both sides do some stomping, and each 
dislikes the other. 
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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 06:09:43PM -0400, eactiv...@aol.com wrote:
> Bong as in the bong show, duh.

Do you mean the Gong show?

They say that as you age, the memory is the second thing to go.


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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

2013-04-10 Thread Eactivist

Bong as in the bong show, duh.

I am  perfectly willing to drop it like Paul did, but you brought it up 
again.  

Paul said something, I said some people believe in no gods, Paul  
essentially said that even atheists and secularists have their "gods"  
(substitute 
gods). I challenged that statement.

Conversely I didn't say a  thing against believers, Christians, Muslims, or 
what not. I really don't care  what others believe, but I do get a bit 
ticked when someone tries to tell me  what I believe.

HTH, Have a Nice Day! Marnie 

In a message dated  4/10/2013 3:05:52 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
l...@red4est.com writes:
Bong  didn't write the post that you're replying to, Paul did.  


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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 05:46:21PM -0400, eactiv...@aol.com wrote:
> Bong!

Bong didn't write the post that you're replying to, Paul did.

By the way, someone made a mistaken conflation between atheist (meaning 
no-gods) and
agnostic (meaning no-knowledge). 


> 
> The below implies that atheists  ("they") are a group that meets and gets 
> together and makes joint decisions. I  suppose there is an atheist society 
> somewhere, but very few atheists belong to  it.
> 
> It also implies that secularists ("they") are such a group as well.  You 
> night relook up the definition for secular.
> 
> It's like that ubiquitous  "they" used in bad reporting. 
> 
> HTH, Marnie aka Doe :-)
> 
> In a  message dated 4/10/2013 1:35:00 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
> pnstenqu...@comcast.net writes:
> >> A simplistic reading of the  situation. Of course atheism and
> >> secularism are different. I'm not  confusing them, but atheists are
> >> generally secularists.  Many  atheists and the secularists, which are
> >> indeed different, have in  their fervor developed belief systems and
> >> become angry when others  express religious beliefs. They have made
> >> their belief system a  rallying point and effectively a substitute for
> >> religion.  
> 
> 
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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

2013-04-10 Thread Eactivist

Bong!

The below implies that atheists  ("they") are a group that meets and gets 
together and makes joint decisions. I  suppose there is an atheist society 
somewhere, but very few atheists belong to  it.

It also implies that secularists ("they") are such a group as well.  You 
night relook up the definition for secular.

It's like that ubiquitous  "they" used in bad reporting. 

HTH, Marnie aka Doe :-)

In a  message dated 4/10/2013 1:35:00 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
pnstenqu...@comcast.net writes:
>> A simplistic reading of the  situation. Of course atheism and
>> secularism are different. I'm not  confusing them, but atheists are
>> generally secularists.  Many  atheists and the secularists, which are
>> indeed different, have in  their fervor developed belief systems and
>> become angry when others  express religious beliefs. They have made
>> their belief system a  rallying point and effectively a substitute for
>> religion.  

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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

No one is trying to convert anyone else, Paul.  Discussing our various
feelings about religion in public life is benign, and, I believe
helpful to understanding each others perspective.

Dan
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
>
> I'm going to avoid this thread going forward. I don't think any of us are 
> going to achieve conversions. In the past we've avoided religious 
> discussions. That was good policy.
>
> Paul
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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

I think I can top that, Larry.  I went to elementary school when they
stiill said the Lord's Prayer every day.  The town was mostly
Catholic, an I was one of the few who said the protestant ending.
Based on the teachings of my conservative Lutheran Church, I should
have refused to say it at all.   I had a choice:  sit down and shut
up, and have everyone glare at me, conform to the majority, or finish
the ending by myself (the only other Protestant was an African
American Baptist, who was afraid to say anything), and have them look
at me like a heretic.

The next year, I was in the class where all the Catholics and all the
Eastern Orthodox got out early every Tuesday for religious
instruction.  The one Jewish boy in the class and I did our homework
on Tuesday afternoons.

In my Rotary Club, we have a prayer before breakfast every week.  We
have a Buddhist, two Muslims, a Hindu, several Christians and Jews. at
least two atheists, and a Reformed minister.  The prayer is a plea for
peace and aid in our effort for service.  We manage to keep it to
something that does not cause anyone discomfort.

Last Saturday, I attended an diversity coalition dinner during which
prayers were say -- and explained -- by 7 different faiths.  It was
quite enlightening.

Dan
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 3:55 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 03:43:48PM -0400, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:
>> "Do you mean like the right to not have the government telling you
>> when, where, why & how to pray, along with who to pray to?"
>>
>> I have many complaints about our government, but they have never told
>> me when, where, why and how to pray, or to whom to pray."
>
> I grew up as one of very few jews in the schools that I went to.
>
> I always felt uncomfortable around Christmas because one of the class 
> activities
> was singing Christmas carols. Christmas carols are, in effect, prayers,
> at the very least statements of belief in Christ as the son of God.
>
> At 52, I am perhaps a little more flexible in my beliefs, but back in
> grade school, it sure felt like I was being coerced into praying to
> gods that I didn't believe in.
>
> Granted, if you're a Christian, Christmas singing carols might not seem like
> praying to you. But how would you have felt if everyone else in your class was
> participating in Muslim or Hindu rituals?
>
>
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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested


On Apr 10, 2013, at 4:37 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 04:34:32PM -0400, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>> 
>> I'm going to avoid this thread going forward. I don't think any of us are 
>> going to achieve conversions. In the past we've avoided religious 
>> discussions. That was good policy. 
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> Question: does discussing full-frame fall under religious discussion?

Of course. It's all about fervor.

> 
> 
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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 04:34:32PM -0400, Paul Stenquist wrote:
> 
> I'm going to avoid this thread going forward. I don't think any of us are 
> going to achieve conversions. In the past we've avoided religious 
> discussions. That was good policy. 

Agreed.

Question: does discussing full-frame fall under religious discussion?


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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

2013-04-10 Thread John Francis

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 12:55:13PM -0700, Larry Colen wrote:
> 
> I grew up as one of very few jews in the schools that I went to.
> 
> I always felt uncomfortable around Christmas because one of the class 
> activities
> was singing Christmas carols. Christmas carols are, in effect, prayers,
> at the very least statements of belief in Christ as the son of God.

I can assure you that this kind of discomfort is by no means limited to 
religion.

Try not singing along with the national anthem at a sporting event,
or not joining in the pledge of allegiance (with or without 'under
god') at an event where it is commonly recited.

You get everything from funny looks to downright abuse.
I used to have fun explaining, at Girl Scout camp, just
why I was standing there quietly, without my hand on my
heart - that's not _my_ national anthem, not _my_ flag.

Mind you, I was always amused by the fact that in the UK
(where there is an established religion) there was far more
separation of church and state than in a country that, in
theory, has that separation enshrined in the constitution.

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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested


I'm going to avoid this thread going forward. I don't think any of us are going 
to achieve conversions. In the past we've avoided religious discussions. That 
was good policy. 

Paul
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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested


On Apr 10, 2013, at 4:03 PM, Aahz Maruch  wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>> 
>> A simplistic reading of the situation. Of course atheism and
>> secularism are different. I'm not confusing them, but atheists are
>> generally secularists.  Many atheists and the secularists, which are
>> indeed different, have in their fervor developed belief systems and
>> become angry when others express religious beliefs. They have made
>> their belief system a rallying point and effectively a substitute for
>> religion.
> 
> In other words, wanting to avoid getting one's toes stomped on is the
> same thing as wanting to stomp on other people's toes.  Got it.

Yes, because that works both ways. Both sides do some stomping, and each 
dislikes the other. 
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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

On Apr 10, 2013, at 3:55 PM, Larry Colen  wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 03:43:48PM -0400, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:
>> "Do you mean like the right to not have the government telling you
>> when, where, why & how to pray, along with who to pray to?"
>> 
>> I have many complaints about our government, but they have never told
>> me when, where, why and how to pray, or to whom to pray."
> 
> I grew up as one of very few jews in the schools that I went to.
> 
> I always felt uncomfortable around Christmas because one of the class 
> activities
> was singing Christmas carols. Christmas carols are, in effect, prayers,
> at the very least statements of belief in Christ as the son of God.
> 
> At 52, I am perhaps a little more flexible in my beliefs, but back in 
> grade school, it sure felt like I was being coerced into praying to
> gods that I didn't believe in.
> 
> Granted, if you're a Christian, Christmas singing carols might not seem like
> praying to you. But how would you have felt if everyone else in your class was
> participating in Muslim or Hindu rituals?
> 

I agree that as a nation we have been insensitive to the beliefs of others, and 
in some places we still are. At Grace's school they sing Christmas carols and 
Hannukah songs. And they observe Muslim holidays as well. They have a Christmas 
tree and a Menorah during the winter season.  Or should I say a holiday tree 
and  holiday candle holder:-).

Seriously, kids like holidays, and most of them seem to enjoy every bit of it. 
Discussions of minority beliefs accompany the festivities. Grace's mother 
hasn't given her any religious instruction or experience. That's fine with me, 
and she seems quite content. But she did once make a crèche at Christmas. I 
think she just liked playing with the figures. And she made a menorah at 
school. Why not.

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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>
> A simplistic reading of the situation. Of course atheism and
> secularism are different. I'm not confusing them, but atheists are
> generally secularists.  Many atheists and the secularists, which are
> indeed different, have in their fervor developed belief systems and
> become angry when others express religious beliefs. They have made
> their belief system a rallying point and effectively a substitute for
> religion.

In other words, wanting to avoid getting one's toes stomped on is the
same thing as wanting to stomp on other people's toes.  Got it.
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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested


On Apr 10, 2013, at 2:55 PM, Bob W  wrote:

> On 10 Apr 2013, at 16:16, Aahz Maruch  wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Apr 09, 2013, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>>> On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:33 AM, Aahz Maruch  wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 09, 2013, Paul Stenquist wrote:
> On Apr 8, 2013, at 11:41 PM, eactiv...@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> There are a lot of people who believe in no  gods.
> 
> But those too have created gods in their own image, just as people
> have done since the beginning of time.  Witness the Christmas displays
> in Santa Monica stage by the atheists. They outdid all the religious
> groups. They worship at the shrine of secularism. We all have our
> gods.
 
 Category error, you are warping other people's beliefs to suit your own.
 
  "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone,
  "it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less."
>>> 
>>> Not my beliefs. I'm agnostic. But mankind has always found something
>>> to believe in, and a new system of beliefs always involves rejection
>>> of the old. Today's secularists are to christians what the christians
>>> and jews were to sun worshipers thousands of years ago.
>> 
>> You are mixing up beliefs, gods, and worship.  You are making as much
>> sense as Humpty Dumpty.  
>> 
> and confusing atheism and secularism. Secularism does not imply atheism. 
> Secularism is about the distinction between religion and, essentially, state; 
> so the notion of a 'shrine of secularism' is a contradiction in terms. You 
> could be the most God-fearing Christian this side of Eden and still be a 
> secularist, and still have secular, that is non-church, matters to deal with, 
> and secularist ideas. Or, you could take the view that all of life should be 
> subject to religious law, and be wholly opposed to all forms of secularism.
> 
> Atheism is an absence of a particular belief, it is not a belief in itself. 
> Atheists, like all people, obviously have beliefs, but there is not a body of 
> interlocking ideas that one could call atheism, or practices that atheists 
> undertake as a function of their atheism, and even if there were it could not 
> be called a religion since the defining property of a religion is that it 
> believes in the existence of at least one god, and the defining property of 
> atheism is that it rejects all belief in gods.
> 
> Now, some atheists may have big christmas displays, but that does not mean 
> that that is some necessary part of atheism. Christmas is now far more of a 
> cultural festival than a religious one  - probably always has been, given 
> that the Puritans banned it. Similarly, many atheists have ceremonies and 
> take part in ritual practices such as weddings and baby-namings that parallel 
> those of Christians and other religious people, but that's not because they 
> want a substitute religion, it's because people everywhere feel a need for 
> rites of passage, and that need has historically been co-opted by religion.

A simplistic reading of the situation. Of course atheism and secularism are 
different. I'm not confusing them, but atheists are generally secularists.  
Many atheists and the secularists, which are indeed different, have in their 
fervor developed belief systems and become angry when others express religious 
beliefs. They have made their belief system a rallying point and effectively a 
substitute for religion.

Paul
> 
> B
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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 03:43:48PM -0400, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:
> "Do you mean like the right to not have the government telling you
> when, where, why & how to pray, along with who to pray to?"
> 
> I have many complaints about our government, but they have never told
> me when, where, why and how to pray, or to whom to pray."

I grew up as one of very few jews in the schools that I went to.

I always felt uncomfortable around Christmas because one of the class activities
was singing Christmas carols. Christmas carols are, in effect, prayers,
at the very least statements of belief in Christ as the son of God.

At 52, I am perhaps a little more flexible in my beliefs, but back in 
grade school, it sure felt like I was being coerced into praying to
gods that I didn't believe in.

Granted, if you're a Christian, Christmas singing carols might not seem like
praying to you. But how would you have felt if everyone else in your class was
participating in Muslim or Hindu rituals?

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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

I don't point fingers at other states, let alone other nations.
Unfortunately, all humans are subject to corruption, and some will
steal as much as they can if there is no fear of prosecution.

If you believe that your country is free of corruption, or morally
superior to others, you are of course entitled to that opinion.

If you think that corruption is the only problem with education, I
would respecfully disagree.

Dan
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Bill  wrote:
> On 10/04/2013 11:04 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:
>>
>> "You will have students who are motivated, which makes the job of
>> teaching much easier, and will tend to attract people to the
>> profession who are passionate about teaching."
>>
>> Unfortunately, that is the philosophy of the current system:  make the
>> job of teachers easier, and eliminate any method of measuring
>> performance.  I am not convinced that is the was to attract people who
>> are passionate about teaching;  it is more likely to attract those
>> looking for any easy and secure position.
>
> It makes the job easier in that it is easier to deal with students who want
> to learn, and easier to deal with classrooms that are not war zones. You are
> reading things into my post that were not written into my post. Your country
> has a problem with governmental corruption at every level. Deal with that,
> and you will find most of the other problems go away.
>
> bill
>
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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

"Do you mean like the right to not have the government telling you
when, where, why & how to pray, along with who to pray to?"

I have many complaints about our government, but they have never told
me when, where, why and how to pray, or to whom to pray."

Dan
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 2:11 PM, John Sessoms  wrote:
> Do you mean like the right to not have the government telling you when,
> where, why & how to pray, along with who to pray to?
>
>
> From: "Daniel J. Matyola"
>>
>> Including "under god" in the pledge of allegiance is hardly "worship."
>>  It is mostly a recognition that Americans "are endowed by their
>> Creator with certain unalienable Rights" that can not be taken away by
>> the government.
>> Dan Matyola
>> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:53 PM,   wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't believe in the concept of worship.
>>>
>>> Methinks your  perspective is skewed by your own lens.
>>>
>>> Marnie aka Doe :-)
>>>
>>> In  a message dated 4/9/2013 5:49:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
>>> pnstenqu...@comcast.net writes:
>>>
>>> Methinks they doth protest too much
>>>
>
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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

2013-04-10 Thread Bob W

On 10 Apr 2013, at 16:16, Aahz Maruch  wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 09, 2013, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>> On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:33 AM, Aahz Maruch  wrote:
>>> On Tue, Apr 09, 2013, Paul Stenquist wrote:
 On Apr 8, 2013, at 11:41 PM, eactiv...@aol.com wrote:
> 
> There are a lot of people who believe in no  gods.

 But those too have created gods in their own image, just as people
 have done since the beginning of time.  Witness the Christmas displays
 in Santa Monica stage by the atheists. They outdid all the religious
 groups. They worship at the shrine of secularism. We all have our
 gods.
>>> 
>>> Category error, you are warping other people's beliefs to suit your own.
>>> 
>>>   "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone,
>>>   "it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less."
>> 
>> Not my beliefs. I'm agnostic. But mankind has always found something
>> to believe in, and a new system of beliefs always involves rejection
>> of the old. Today's secularists are to christians what the christians
>> and jews were to sun worshipers thousands of years ago.
> 
> You are mixing up beliefs, gods, and worship.  You are making as much
> sense as Humpty Dumpty.  
> 
and confusing atheism and secularism. Secularism does not imply atheism. 
Secularism is about the distinction between religion and, essentially, state; 
so the notion of a 'shrine of secularism' is a contradiction in terms. You 
could be the most God-fearing Christian this side of Eden and still be a 
secularist, and still have secular, that is non-church, matters to deal with, 
and secularist ideas. Or, you could take the view that all of life should be 
subject to religious law, and be wholly opposed to all forms of secularism.

Atheism is an absence of a particular belief, it is not a belief in itself. 
Atheists, like all people, obviously have beliefs, but there is not a body of 
interlocking ideas that one could call atheism, or practices that atheists 
undertake as a function of their atheism, and even if there were it could not 
be called a religion since the defining property of a religion is that it 
believes in the existence of at least one god, and the defining property of 
atheism is that it rejects all belief in gods.

Now, some atheists may have big christmas displays, but that does not mean that 
that is some necessary part of atheism. Christmas is now far more of a cultural 
festival than a religious one  - probably always has been, given that the 
Puritans banned it. Similarly, many atheists have ceremonies and take part in 
ritual practices such as weddings and baby-namings that parallel those of 
Christians and other religious people, but that's not because they want a 
substitute religion, it's because people everywhere feel a need for rites of 
passage, and that need has historically been co-opted by religion.

B
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:
> Aahz:
>>
>> If we want a school system that works, we need to switch to an
>> all-public model.
> 
> How will reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator make the
> system "work"?

Repeat:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-10 Thread John Sessoms

Unfortunately, the "philosophy of the current system" is to test all the 
kids in all the schools. Take money away from the schools where the kids 
test scores are below average and give it to the schools were the 
students already have test scores above average.


Test 'em all again next year to see which schools have "improved". 
Again, take money away from the schools where the improvement in test 
scores is below average and give the money to the schools where the 
improvement in test scores is been above average.


Repeat the cycle until only schools where student test scores are above 
average are left.



From: "Daniel J. Matyola"

"You will have students who are motivated, which makes the job of
teaching much easier, and will tend to attract people to the
profession who are passionate about teaching."

Unfortunately, that is the philosophy of the current system:  make the
job of teachers easier, and eliminate any method of measuring
performance.  I am not convinced that is the was to attract people who
are passionate about teaching;  it is more likely to attract those
looking for any easy and secure position.


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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested


On Apr 10, 2013, at 11:10 AM, Aahz Maruch  wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 09, 2013, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>> 
>> This discussion seems to assume that the existence of charter shoals
>> and voucher systems is up for debate. It's not. They're operating and,
>> in many places, succeeding. We still have much to learn about how
>> they should be regulated and on what basis they should be allowed to
>> compete, but going back to a schools system that is operated only by
>> the government isn't going to happen. That's history.
> 
> Only if we want to continue with a failing school system.  If we want a
> school system that works, we need to switch to an all-public model (with,
> of course, some caveats):
> 
We've had universal public educate for more than 200 years. It didn't work. 

> http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/
> 
> 
> You have valid points about the entrenched interests, but vouchers and
> charter schools are not the answer, if only because they just won't take
> the real problem children (behavior disorders and physical/mental
> disabilities).

Most charters that accept federal or state vouchers have to take all students, 
and they still succeed better than the public schools that are shackled by 
unions and mired in bureaucracy.

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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-10 Thread Bob W

On 10 Apr 2013, at 19:09, John Francis  wrote:

> 
> I know a little about this; one of my parents (and both of those of my
> wife) were life-long teachers. I went to the UK equivalent of both a US
> public school (although this was before Maggie Thatcher's drive to full
> comprehensive schools, so even then it was a selective 'grammar' school)
> and a voucher-supported school (a so-called Direct Grant public school),
> so I've seen at least some of the inside of both sides.
> 
> My mother was a very close friend of the headmistress of one of the big
> experimental comprehensive schools (Kidbrooke - Bob probably knows of it),
> so I also know something about how a public school system can work, and
> of the problems encountered in trying to make it work.
> 

Indeed i do - two of my friends have been teachers there.

I went to a gramer schol, which became comprehensive at about the time I was in 
6:1. The thing that went really wrong with the transition to comprehensives, 
which I support, is that some grammars got out of it by turning private, or 
something similar, and were able to poach the best teachers from the comps, so 
the comps became a dumping ground for bad teachers. This meant a fall in 
standards on average. If they had retained the best of the grammar teachers and 
ethos standards would probably have risen on average. 

As it is now, though, I think teaching is much better than it was in my day.

B
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-10 Thread John Sessoms

Perhaps a better school system, but at the expense of an overall 
worsening of society.


From: "Daniel J. Matyola"

"what is the interest of the pupil. If he or she want to learn"

So, if we eliminate compulsory education, and let the slackers drop
out, we will have a better school system?

Dan
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 12:07 AM, Boris Liberman  wrote:

what is the interest of the pupil. If he or she want to learn




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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

2013-04-10 Thread John Sessoms

Do you mean like the right to not have the government telling you when, 
where, why & how to pray, along with who to pray to?



From: "Daniel J. Matyola"

Including "under god" in the pledge of allegiance is hardly "worship."
 It is mostly a recognition that Americans "are endowed by their
Creator with certain unalienable Rights" that can not be taken away by
the government.
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:53 PM,   wrote:

I don't believe in the concept of worship.

Methinks your  perspective is skewed by your own lens.

Marnie aka Doe :-)

In  a message dated 4/9/2013 5:49:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
pnstenqu...@comcast.net writes:

Methinks they doth protest too much



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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-10 Thread John Francis

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 01:04:49PM -0400, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:
> "You will have students who are motivated, which makes the job of
> teaching much easier, and will tend to attract people to the
> profession who are passionate about teaching."
> 
> Unfortunately, that is the philosophy of the current system:  make the
> job of teachers easier, and eliminate any method of measuring
> performance.  I am not convinced that is the was to attract people who
> are passionate about teaching;  it is more likely to attract those
> looking for any easy and secure position.

You're conflating two arguments.
While much of the current (US) based public education system has
eliminated any meaningful way of evaluating the perfomance of
teachers (although just how to measure this is, in itself, a whole
new can of worms), that's not a position put forward by the proponents
of charter/voucher schools.

I know a little about this; one of my parents (and both of those of my
wife) were life-long teachers. I went to the UK equivalent of both a US
public school (although this was before Maggie Thatcher's drive to full
comprehensive schools, so even then it was a selective 'grammar' school)
and a voucher-supported school (a so-called Direct Grant public school),
so I've seen at least some of the inside of both sides.

My mother was a very close friend of the headmistress of one of the big
experimental comprehensive schools (Kidbrooke - Bob probably knows of it),
so I also know something about how a public school system can work, and
of the problems encountered in trying to make it work.

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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-10 Thread Collin Brendemuehl

>Actually, yes. You will have students who are motivated, which makes the 
>job of teaching much easier, and will tend to attract people to the 
>profession who are passionate about teaching. Yo won't run into the 
>situation that is happening in Georgia (IIRC) where an entire school 
>board is under the microscope for marks cheating to enhance their 
>districts scores (and funding). Thirty five educators are in front of a 
>grand jury for this.

Similar situation in Ohio but without the press coverage, so it may just be
forgotten about.  Unfortunately.


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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-10 Thread Bill


On 10/04/2013 11:04 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:

"You will have students who are motivated, which makes the job of
teaching much easier, and will tend to attract people to the
profession who are passionate about teaching."

Unfortunately, that is the philosophy of the current system:  make the
job of teachers easier, and eliminate any method of measuring
performance.  I am not convinced that is the was to attract people who
are passionate about teaching;  it is more likely to attract those
looking for any easy and secure position.
It makes the job easier in that it is easier to deal with students who 
want to learn, and easier to deal with classrooms that are not war 
zones. You are reading things into my post that were not written into my 
post. Your country has a problem with governmental corruption at every 
level. Deal with that, and you will find most of the other problems go away.


bill

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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

"You will have students who are motivated, which makes the job of
teaching much easier, and will tend to attract people to the
profession who are passionate about teaching."

Unfortunately, that is the philosophy of the current system:  make the
job of teachers easier, and eliminate any method of measuring
performance.  I am not convinced that is the was to attract people who
are passionate about teaching;  it is more likely to attract those
looking for any easy and secure position.

Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Bill  wrote:
> On 10/04/2013 7:57 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:
>> "what is the interest of the pupil. If he or she want to learn"
>>
>> So, if we eliminate compulsory education, and let the slackers drop
>> out, we will have a better school system?
>
>
> Actually, yes. You will have students who are motivated, which makes the job
> of teaching much easier, and will tend to attract people to the profession
> who are passionate about teaching. Yo won't run into the situation that is
> happening in Georgia (IIRC) where an entire school board is under the
> microscope for marks cheating to enhance their districts scores (and
> funding). Thirty five educators are in front of a grand jury for this.
>
> http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/04/01/atlanta-cheating-scandal-puts-national-education-policy-on-trial/
>
> The other side of the coin of course, is what do you do with the slackers?
> They aren't going to be employable, and are, as a rule, going to end up in
> criminal activity (much the same as they do now), and eventually, being
> warehoused in jail.
>
> As an aside, I know something of what I speak. My father spent the majority
> of his teaching career at an inner city high school where drop out rates
> generally exceeded 90%, and the kids were a product of multi generational
> welfare, and parents whose live had pretty much been ruined by our
> governments very misguided attempt to beat the Indian out of the Indians
> with a Residential School program that saw hundreds of thousands of children
> taken from their parents and dropped into church run schools where their
> culture, language and, judging from the number of complaints that surfaced
> regarding physical and sexual abuse, their innocence as well.
> As a society, we'll be paying for this 150 year travesty for another hundred
> years.
>
> Essentially, we screwed these people up to the point they couldn't function
> in either the Indian society or the White society, and then kicked them to
> the curb to fend for themselves, and then got sanctimonious because many
> (most) ended up as a waste of humanity.
>
> bill
>
>
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

" If we want a school system that works, we need to switch to an
all-public model."

How will reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator make the
system "work"?>
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Aahz Maruch  wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 09, 2013, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>>
>> This discussion seems to assume that the existence of charter shoals
>> and voucher systems is up for debate. It's not. They're operating and,
>> in many places, succeeding. We still have much to learn about how
>> they should be regulated and on what basis they should be allowed to
>> compete, but going back to a schools system that is operated only by
>> the government isn't going to happen. That's history.
>
> Only if we want to continue with a failing school system.  If we want a
> school system that works, we need to switch to an all-public model (with,
> of course, some caveats):
>
> http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/
>
> You have valid points about the entrenched interests, but vouchers and
> charter schools are not the answer, if only because they just won't take
> the real problem children (behavior disorders and physical/mental
> disabilities).
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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

My comment has nothing to do with tax breaks or anything else, but you
know that.
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Aahz Maruch  wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2013, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:
>>
>> Including "under god" in the pledge of allegiance is hardly "worship."
>> It is mostly a recognition that Americans "are endowed by their
>> Creator with certain unalienable Rights" that can not be taken away by
>> the government.
>
> Do you support tax breaks for worshippers of the Flying Spaghetti
> Monster?
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-10 Thread Bill

On 10/04/2013 7:57 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:
> "what is the interest of the pupil. If he or she want to learn"
>
> So, if we eliminate compulsory education, and let the slackers drop
> out, we will have a better school system?

Actually, yes. You will have students who are motivated, which makes the 
job of teaching much easier, and will tend to attract people to the 
profession who are passionate about teaching. Yo won't run into the 
situation that is happening in Georgia (IIRC) where an entire school 
board is under the microscope for marks cheating to enhance their 
districts scores (and funding). Thirty five educators are in front of a 
grand jury for this.

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/04/01/atlanta-cheating-scandal-puts-national-education-policy-on-trial/

The other side of the coin of course, is what do you do with the 
slackers? They aren't going to be employable, and are, as a rule, going 
to end up in criminal activity (much the same as they do now), and 
eventually, being warehoused in jail.

As an aside, I know something of what I speak. My father spent the 
majority of his teaching career at an inner city high school where drop 
out rates generally exceeded 90%, and the kids were a product of multi 
generational welfare, and parents whose live had pretty much been ruined 
by our governments very misguided attempt to beat the Indian out of the 
Indians with a Residential School program that saw hundreds of thousands 
of children taken from their parents and dropped into church run schools 
where their culture, language and, judging from the number of complaints 
that surfaced regarding physical and sexual abuse, their innocence as well.
As a society, we'll be paying for this 150 year travesty for another 
hundred years.

Essentially, we screwed these people up to the point they couldn't 
function in either the Indian society or the White society, and then 
kicked them to the curb to fend for themselves, and then got 
sanctimonious because many (most) ended up as a waste of humanity.

bill

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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

On Tue, Apr 09, 2013, Paul Stenquist wrote:
> On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:33 AM, Aahz Maruch  wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 09, 2013, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>>> On Apr 8, 2013, at 11:41 PM, eactiv...@aol.com wrote:
 
 There are a lot of people who believe in no  gods.
>>> 
>>> But those too have created gods in their own image, just as people
>>> have done since the beginning of time.  Witness the Christmas displays
>>> in Santa Monica stage by the atheists. They outdid all the religious
>>> groups. They worship at the shrine of secularism. We all have our
>>> gods.
>> 
>> Category error, you are warping other people's beliefs to suit your own.
>> 
>>"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone,
>>"it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less."
> 
> Not my beliefs. I'm agnostic. But mankind has always found something
> to believe in, and a new system of beliefs always involves rejection
> of the old. Today's secularists are to christians what the christians
> and jews were to sun worshipers thousands of years ago.

You are mixing up beliefs, gods, and worship.  You are making as much
sense as Humpty Dumpty.  
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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:
>
> Including "under god" in the pledge of allegiance is hardly "worship."
> It is mostly a recognition that Americans "are endowed by their
> Creator with certain unalienable Rights" that can not be taken away by
> the government.

Do you support tax breaks for worshippers of the Flying Spaghetti
Monster?
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

On Tue, Apr 09, 2013, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>
> This discussion seems to assume that the existence of charter shoals
> and voucher systems is up for debate. It's not. They're operating and,
> in many places, succeeding. We still have much to learn about how
> they should be regulated and on what basis they should be allowed to
> compete, but going back to a schools system that is operated only by
> the government isn't going to happen. That's history.

Only if we want to continue with a failing school system.  If we want a
school system that works, we need to switch to an all-public model (with,
of course, some caveats):

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/


You have valid points about the entrenched interests, but vouchers and
charter schools are not the answer, if only because they just won't take
the real problem children (behavior disorders and physical/mental
disabilities).
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

"what is the interest of the pupil. If he or she want to learn"

So, if we eliminate compulsory education, and let the slackers drop
out, we will have a better school system?

Dan
On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 12:07 AM, Boris Liberman  wrote:
> what is the interest of the pupil. If he or she want to learn



Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola

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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

Including "under god" in the pledge of allegiance is hardly "worship."
 It is mostly a recognition that Americans "are endowed by their
Creator with certain unalienable Rights" that can not be taken away by
the government.
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 10:53 PM,   wrote:
> I don't believe in the concept of worship.
>
> Methinks your  perspective is skewed by your own lens.
>
> Marnie aka Doe :-)
>
> In  a message dated 4/9/2013 5:49:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> pnstenqu...@comcast.net writes:
>
> Methinks they doth protest too much
>
>
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested


On Apr 10, 2013, at 12:07 AM, Boris Liberman  wrote:

> On 4/9/2013 9:30 PM, Larry Colen wrote:
>> Because, simply put, the problem isn't the schools. The problem is at
>> home. Children who come from families that put a high priority on
>> education do well in school.  If kids see their parents reading in
>> their free time, they will consider reading a viable leisure time
>> activity. If they see their parents watching TV, getting drunk etc.
>> that's what they will consider normal.
> 

Very true. But unfortunately many of today's parents won't provide that kind of 
home environment, and if we merely dismiss their children as uneducable we 
sustain that model. There are places where the schools have to take over and do 
a better job. Detroit, for example. 

> I cannot possibly agree more here... The value of education does not depend 
> on the way the teachers are paid or system is organized. Obviously some 
> schools are better some are less so. Some teachers are more interesting and 
> some others are more boring. The point is - what is the interest of the 
> pupil. If he or she want to learn - they'll learn. If their parents can 
> afford - it will be private extra-curriculum tuition. If not - it will be 
> something else. Mind you - I have some very concrete examples around me, 
> although obviously in my country, not USA.
> 
> It all stems from the family position on the matter.
> 
>> We live in a culture where people who excel at stick and ball games
>> are worshipped as heros, where kids who speak properly, and do well
>> in science and math are teased and taunted as socially awkward nerds
>> and geeks. And, then we wonder why are schools are failing us.
> 
> Very similar here as well...
> 
>> Complaining about school performance in our culture, is like
>> complaining that you can't get decent photos because Pentax doesn't
>> make a full frame body, when you haven't even learned the basics well
>> enough to get the best performance out of the cameras they do make.
>> 
>> See, I can drag this topic, kicking and screaming back to the topic
>> of photography.
>> 
>> The reason that kids in charter schools do better is simply because
>> they have parents that care enough about their education to put them
>> in what they perceive as better schools.  

That's partly true, and the charter school provides a better environment for 
learning.

>> Those kids would still do
>> better than their peers in public schools.  The biggest effect of
>> charter schools, vouchers etc. is to separate the kids who have
>> parents that care about their education from the ones who don't.

Charter schools also tend to be staffed with teachers who care more about 
education than their paycheck and benefits. The solution isn't perfect, but it 
helps ensure that at least part of the population will be educated.

> 
> Hmmm... If you have such a system it is pure gold because it ensures that at 
> least part of your population will get reasonably good education.
> 
> Just my cents...
> 
> Boris
> 
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

Bob, you're wrong. The Englishman with Jewish name Izik is the one to
blame... :-

On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Bob W  wrote:
> On 10 Apr 2013, at 05:22, Boris Liberman  wrote:
>
>>
>> Given the size of the system and hence its inertia f[...] the general 
>> direction at which this juggernaut is moving on its own...
>>
>
> I blame the physics teachers... :0)
>
> B
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-10 Thread Bob W

On 10 Apr 2013, at 05:22, Boris Liberman  wrote:

> 
> Given the size of the system and hence its inertia f[...] the general 
> direction at which this juggernaut is moving on its own...
> 

I blame the physics teachers... :0)

B
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread Rob Studdert

On 10 April 2013 12:50, John Coyle  wrote:
> I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the classic mnemonic I was taught at 
> school -
> B (rackets)
> O (vers)
> D (ivision)
> M (ultiplication)
> A (dditions)
> S (ubtractions)
>
> Which often gives the correct answer, but equally can give an incorrect one!

It should always give a reliable answer, the problem is that the
mnemonic is often taken too literally (which is obvious in the FB
thread). It's not a great tool IMO because it's flawed in that the
implication is that division comes before multiplication and addition
before subtraction which is not the case, the components of any
equation are solved left to right in their particular tier of
operations.

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Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio

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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread Boris Liberman


On 4/10/2013 4:56 AM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:

"Why not just fix the public system instead?"


Several questions answers to which in my country are mostly shameful:

1. Is teacher as a profession is respected by your society?
2. Is teacher as an occupation is worth doing in terms of salary and 
monetary gains?
3. Do schools in general and teachers in particular have legal backing 
in order to enforce proper discipline in classes?
4. Do schools are provided (no matter the sources, as long they're 
legal) with sufficient resources, funding, lab equipment, computers, etc?

5. Are there strong college/university programs that prepare teachers?
6. How good are the people who work on school curriculum programs? Are 
these programs improving towards challenging the pupils and developing 
them to be stronger in terms of knowledge? Or are these programs moving 
towards simplifying the curriculum so that more kids can get better 
marks with less effort?
7. Is exam/grading system is such that it encourages knowledge and 
success as opposed to merely getting high grades? By the way - in my 
very personal opinion the exams where you need to choose from given 
answers is probably the worst abomination of them all.
8. Is your system given means (that the system constantly exercises) 
that allow it detect bright kids that are then given special curriculum 
to promote their excellency or natural gifts? Do such programs exist for 
all possible areas ranging from sports to mathematics?


Obviously I can keep this list going... However, if teacher is someone 
who did not choose to become but rather couldn't do anything else and 
who's looking forward to allegedly long between years vacation, if 
schools have minimal equipment, if curriculum is targeted towards 
mediocre students while final exams are constantly downgraded to ensure 
highly PR'ed statistics of allegedly high marks while gifted and 
talented kids are shunned down - then you may have a problem at your 
hands...


Given the size of the system and hence its inertia it may be this close 
to impossible to introduce any change whatsoever beside of course the 
general direction at which this juggernaut is moving on its own...


You will notice that I am rather passionate (some already told me - 
obsessed) with education... It has to do with my heritage...


Boris


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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread Boris Liberman


On 4/9/2013 9:30 PM, Larry Colen wrote:

Because, simply put, the problem isn't the schools. The problem is at
home. Children who come from families that put a high priority on
education do well in school.  If kids see their parents reading in
their free time, they will consider reading a viable leisure time
activity. If they see their parents watching TV, getting drunk etc.
that's what they will consider normal.


I cannot possibly agree more here... The value of education does not 
depend on the way the teachers are paid or system is organized. 
Obviously some schools are better some are less so. Some teachers are 
more interesting and some others are more boring. The point is - what is 
the interest of the pupil. If he or she want to learn - they'll learn. 
If their parents can afford - it will be private extra-curriculum 
tuition. If not - it will be something else. Mind you - I have some very 
concrete examples around me, although obviously in my country, not USA.


It all stems from the family position on the matter.


We live in a culture where people who excel at stick and ball games
are worshipped as heros, where kids who speak properly, and do well
in science and math are teased and taunted as socially awkward nerds
and geeks. And, then we wonder why are schools are failing us.


Very similar here as well...


Complaining about school performance in our culture, is like
complaining that you can't get decent photos because Pentax doesn't
make a full frame body, when you haven't even learned the basics well
enough to get the best performance out of the cameras they do make.

See, I can drag this topic, kicking and screaming back to the topic
of photography.

The reason that kids in charter schools do better is simply because
they have parents that care enough about their education to put them
in what they perceive as better schools.  Those kids would still do
better than their peers in public schools.  The biggest effect of
charter schools, vouchers etc. is to separate the kids who have
parents that care about their education from the ones who don't.


Hmmm... If you have such a system it is pure gold because it ensures 
that at least part of your population will get reasonably good education.


Just my cents...

Boris

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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread Boris Liberman


On 4/9/2013 9:56 PM, John Sessoms wrote:

Looking back, I can't believe that my High School Trig course never once
mentioned that Sine, Cosine and Tangent are all based on the
relationship of the sides of a triangle. That would have made it so easy.


Trigonometry - metry of trigons (*) or "science" of measuring the 
triangles...


(*) Trigon being the special case of polygon.


And again, if I actually needed to figure out the height of a flagpole
from the length of it's shadow, nowadays I'd just Google it & find an
on-line calculator that would give me the answer.


Indeed. Did some such yesterday. However, I have previously solved the 
problem myself and used Google to verify.


I should point out that like money does not grow on trees, knowledge 
doesn't grow on Google... I should add that I mean no disrespect or 
offense here...


Boris



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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread Eactivist

I don't believe in the concept of worship. 

Methinks your  perspective is skewed by your own lens.

Marnie aka Doe :-)

In  a message dated 4/9/2013 5:49:39 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
pnstenqu...@comcast.net writes:

Methinks they doth protest too much
 

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RE: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread John Coyle

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the classic mnemonic I was taught at school -
B (rackets)
O (vers)
D (ivision)
M (ultiplication)
A (dditions)
S (ubtractions)

Which often gives the correct answer, but equally can give an incorrect one!

As a programmer, the order of operations is usually dictated by the command I 
am using in the
programming language, but complex nested iterative ifs require careful thought, 
I've found - and
often the breaking down into parts solved first before continuing.

John Coyle
Brisbane, Australia

-Original Message-
From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of John Sessoms
Sent: Wednesday, 10 April 2013 4:57 AM
To: pdml@pdml.net
Subject: Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

From: Brian Walters
> Quoting Rob Studdert :
>
>> On 9 April 2013 06:30, John Sessoms  wrote:
>>
>>> Just out of curiosity, what real life problem does that equation relate to?
>>
>> In solving electronics engineering problems this sort of combination 
>> of operators wouldn't be that uncommon.
>>
>>> It's been long enough since I'd done school-book math that I had to 
>>> Google "order of operations" to be sure I got the answer right.
>>
>> After watching that FB thread I feel that I'm in a privileged 
>> position that my secondary schooling left me with an indelible memory 
>> of order of operations (and we had no swanky acronyms, we just had to 
>> remember it like times tables) plus I can solve trig problems so long 
>> as I have a table or calculator handy and logs are no mystery. I 
>> can't help thinking that if order of operations in second class 
>> mechanical maths is a problem what change would anyone have had with basic 
>> algebra?
>
>
>
> Yeah, I'm with John here.  In my ancient schooldays, equations like 
> this would be presented with parentheses to define the order of 
> operations, as in:
>
> 6-(1x0)+(2/2) = 7
>
> I'm not sure when the parentheses idea was dropped.
>

I recognized right away that it was one of those trick questions based on order 
of operation. I got
seven as the answer, but wasn't certain enough that I remembered it correctly 
to accept the answer
without Googling Order of Operation to check myself.

When I had to take Trigonometry in High School it was all rote memory & looking 
up tables. They
didn't teach WHY.

I had to take a math course during one of my sojourns in Community College, and 
enough time had
passed since High School that they taught Trig using graphing calculators. And 
in order to use
graphing calculators, they had to teach WHY.

Looking back, I can't believe that my High School Trig course never once 
mentioned that Sine, Cosine
and Tangent are all based on the relationship of the sides of a triangle. That 
would have made it so
easy.

And again, if I actually needed to figure out the height of a flagpole from the 
length of it's
shadow, nowadays I'd just Google it & find an on-line calculator that would 
give me the answer.

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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested


From: John Francis

On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 12:28:10PM -0500, Bob Sullivan wrote:

I went to Catholic grade school as a yute.
I don't think they paid the nuns to much.
And retirement benefits are kind of iffy.
Just sayin'...


Retirement benefits for nuns are out of this world!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqkowVU5mZI

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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread Daniel J. Matyola

"Why not just fix the public system instead?"

Unions and politicians.  Neither will allow any significant change to
the existing system.
Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Bill  wrote:
> On 09/04/2013 7:43 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>
>> That's why voucher funded charter schools are needed in those other areas.
>> They can provide the competition for the public schools. >Community
>> involvement is another thing, but having an alternative to  the public
>> schools is a start.
>
> And when all the kids are going to charter schools via a voucher program,
> you will have a de facto public schools system which is funded by a
> combination of public funding and private tuition, probably to the chagrin
> of the people on the private funding side (why should we pay our freight
> when the majority don't?), but is a given that it will be much more
> expensive than the public system it has replaced.
> Why not just fix the public system instead?
>
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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:03 PM, Mark Roberts  wrote:

> eactiv...@aol.com wrote:
> 
>> There are a lot of people who believe in no  gods.
> 
> In many countries now it's the majority of people.

And "believe" is the operable word. They don't dismiss the issue. They believe 
fervently in no gods. It's not that people are no longer religious. Many now 
embrace secularism with zeal and with an air of superiority that is at least 
equal to that displayed by the most religious among us. I find it all rather 
amusing. But enough of this. I wouldn't want to offend those who believe so 
deeply in the correctness of no beliefs:-).

> 
> -- 
> Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia
> www.robertstech.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread Mark Roberts

eactiv...@aol.com wrote:

>There are a lot of people who believe in no  gods.

In many countries now it's the majority of people.
 
-- 
Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia
www.robertstech.com





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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested


On Apr 9, 2013, at 7:10 PM, eactiv...@aol.com wrote:

> 
> 
> In a message dated 4/9/2013 12:30:53  P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
> p...@web-options.com writes:
> On 9 Apr 2013, at  12:23, Paul Stenquist  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Apr 8, 2013, at 11:41 PM, eactiv...@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>>> There are a lot of people who believe in no  gods.
>>> 
>>> M aka D :-)
>> 
>> But those too have created gods in  their own image, just as people have 
> done since the beginning of time.   Witness the Christmas displays in Santa 
> Monica stage by the atheists. They  outdid all the religious groups. They 
> worship at the shrine of secularism. We  all have our gods.
>> 
>> Paul
> 
> I  don't.
> 
> B
> Ditto.
> 

Methinks they doth protest too much.

> M aka Doe :-)   
> 
> 
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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread Eactivist



In a message dated 4/9/2013 12:30:53  P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
p...@web-options.com writes:
On 9 Apr 2013, at  12:23, Paul Stenquist  wrote:

>  
> On Apr 8, 2013, at 11:41 PM, eactiv...@aol.com wrote:
>  
>> There are a lot of people who believe in no  gods.
>>  
>> M aka D :-)
> 
> But those too have created gods in  their own image, just as people have 
done since the beginning of time.   Witness the Christmas displays in Santa 
Monica stage by the atheists. They  outdid all the religious groups. They 
worship at the shrine of secularism. We  all have our gods.
> 
> Paul

I  don't.

B
Ditto.

M aka Doe :-)   


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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread Eactivist

Very well said.

Marnie aka Doe  :-)

In a message dated 4/9/2013 6:34:16 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  
a...@pobox.com writes:
Category error, you are warping other people's beliefs  to suit your own.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty  said, in rather a scornful tone,
"it means just what I  choose it to mean--neither more nor less."
-- 
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http://rule6.info/
<*><*><*>
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread John Francis

On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 12:28:10PM -0500, Bob Sullivan wrote:
> I went to Catholic grade school as a yute.
> I don't think they paid the nuns to much.
> And retirement benefits are kind of iffy.
> Just sayin'...

Retirement benefits for nuns are out of this world!


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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread Bob W

On 9 Apr 2013, at 22:37, "Steve Cottrell"  wrote:

> 
>> We all have our gods.
>>> 
>>> Paul
> 
> On 9/4/13, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed:
> 
>> 
>> I don't.
> 
> Bob talks to god on the great white telephone now and again ;-)
> 
> 
That's not god, that's Raoul

B

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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested


From: Bill

On 09/04/2013 11:59 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote:

Public schools will survive given the vested interest that a large
portion of the population has in their continued existence. Charters
won't ever replace them completely. It's doubtful that we'd ever get
to 50% charters. But to ensure survival, public schools will have to
complete. They can no longer be lazy and take their position for
granted. And that's happening in a lot of places. This discussion
seems to assume that the existence of charter shoals and voucher
systems is up for debate. It's not. They're operating and, in many
places, succeeding. We still have much to learn about how they should
be regulated and on what basis they should be allowed to compete, but
going back to a schools system that is operated only by the government
isn't going to happen. That's history.


And in the end you will have a two tiered public education system of
pure public schools funded completely by taxes and charter schools
funded mostly by the public purse, with a large contingent of charter
school parents annoyed that they are paying 100% of their child's
tuition, while most of the people in the class are there on subsidies,
and the whole thing will fall apart because of the human nature of
people not wanting to "pay someone else's freight". And you will end up
having a repeat of the same problems your public system is having now,
simply because the problem is with holding the system accountable.
And probably, some smart Johnny will repeat the process
You don't need competition, you need accountability.

bill


We're headed towards a single tier system where those kids whose parents 
can afford to pay tuition will go to school & there won't be any public 
schools.


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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread Steve Cottrell


>We all have our gods.
>> 
>> Paul

On 9/4/13, Bob W, discombobulated, unleashed:

>
>I don't.

Bob talks to god on the great white telephone now and again ;-)

-- 


Cheers,
  Cotty


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||  (O)  |Web Video Producion
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested


From: "Alan C"

Sorry - in a proper fraction, the numerator is smaller than the denominator.
Basic rule - "Edit before Send" !


He he! Wondered how long it would take you to catch that & whether you'd 
get there first.


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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested


From: Rob Studdert

On 9 April 2013 14:37, Tom Cakalic  wrote:


Hi Rob, (and John)

You and I often see things in the same way.

However the question/problem seems rather academic.

I haven't needed to or tried to remember the order of operations much
past high school.

At 52 years old, I see the implicit wisdom in using parentheses to
denote the proper order. Why leave the correct solution to chance when
one could explicitly specify it?  Is it really too hard to do so?
Especially if one desires the correct result?


If that's your preference then you are free to do it that way, but if
someone doesn't add brackets and you have to deal with their output
then it's advantageous to know how to deal with the situation, when
the rules are followed there is no ambiguity.


Oh yeah. I know how to deal with it. Just Google "order of operation".  8-D

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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread Doug Franklin


On 2013-04-09 14:56, John Sessoms wrote:


Looking back, I can't believe that my High School Trig course never once
mentioned that Sine, Cosine and Tangent are all based on the
relationship of the sides of a triangle. That would have made it so easy.


Holy Crap!  I can't believe that, either!  I mean, it's not 
like the transcendentals grew directly out of the triangles or 
anything.


It's along the lines of my experience with physics.  In regular high 
school physics classes, they couldn't assume we knew even rudimentary 
calculus, so we had to memorize a gazillion discrete formulae.  F=ma, 
P=mv, E=mv^2/2, etc.  It got much simpler in college when we did know 
calculus and discovered that you really only need to know a handful of 
basic equations, and a little basic calculus, and you can derive all of 
the other formulae you need.


--
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Facebook "NutDriver Racing"
Sponsored by Murphy


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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread Bob W



On 9 Apr 2013, at 12:23, Paul Stenquist  wrote:

> 
> On Apr 8, 2013, at 11:41 PM, eactiv...@aol.com wrote:
> 
>> There are a lot of people who believe in no  gods.
>> 
>> M aka D :-)
> 
> But those too have created gods in their own image, just as people have done 
> since the beginning of time.  Witness the Christmas displays in Santa Monica 
> stage by the atheists. They outdid all the religious groups. They worship at 
> the shrine of secularism. We all have our gods.
> 
> Paul

I don't.

B


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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested


From: Brian Walters

Quoting Rob Studdert :


On 9 April 2013 06:30, John Sessoms  wrote:


Just out of curiosity, what real life problem does that equation relate to?


In solving electronics engineering problems this sort of combination
of operators wouldn't be that uncommon.


It's been long enough since I'd done school-book math that I had to
Google "order of operations" to be sure I got the answer right.


After watching that FB thread I feel that I'm in a privileged position
that my secondary schooling left me with an indelible memory of order
of operations (and we had no swanky acronyms, we just had to remember
it like times tables) plus I can solve trig problems so long as I have
a table or calculator handy and logs are no mystery. I can't help
thinking that if order of operations in second class mechanical maths
is a problem what change would anyone have had with basic algebra?




Yeah, I'm with John here.  In my ancient schooldays, equations like
this would be presented with parentheses to define the order of
operations, as in:

6-(1x0)+(2/2) = 7

I'm not sure when the parentheses idea was dropped.



I recognized right away that it was one of those trick questions based 
on order of operation. I got seven as the answer, but wasn't certain 
enough that I remembered it correctly to accept the answer without 
Googling Order of Operation to check myself.


When I had to take Trigonometry in High School it was all rote memory & 
looking up tables. They didn't teach WHY.


I had to take a math course during one of my sojourns in Community 
College, and enough time had passed since High School that they taught 
Trig using graphing calculators. And in order to use graphing 
calculators, they had to teach WHY.


Looking back, I can't believe that my High School Trig course never once 
mentioned that Sine, Cosine and Tangent are all based on the 
relationship of the sides of a triangle. That would have made it so easy.


And again, if I actually needed to figure out the height of a flagpole 
from the length of it's shadow, nowadays I'd just Google it & find an 
on-line calculator that would give me the answer.


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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested


On Apr 9, 2013, at 2:25 PM, Bill  wrote:

> On 09/04/2013 11:59 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>> Public schools will survive given the vested interest that a large portion 
>> of the population has in their continued existence. Charters won't ever 
>> replace them completely. It's doubtful that we'd ever get to 50% charters. 
>> But to ensure survival, public schools will have to complete. They can no 
>> longer be lazy and take their position for granted. And that's happening in 
>> a lot of places. This discussion seems to assume that the existence of 
>> charter shoals and voucher systems is up for debate. It's not. They're 
>> operating and, in many places, succeeding. We still have much to learn about 
>> how they should be regulated and on what basis they should be allowed to 
>> compete, but going back to a schools system that is operated only by the 
>> government isn't going to happen. That's history.
>> 
> And in the end you will have a two tiered public education system of pure 
> public schools funded completely by taxes and charter schools funded mostly 
> by the public purse, with a large contingent of charter school parents 
> annoyed that they are paying 100% of their child's tuition, while most of the 
> people in the class are there on subsidies, and the whole thing will fall 
> apart because of the human nature of people not wanting to "pay someone 
> else's freight".
If that were how it works, it would be a problem. But it doesn't. Charters in 
many systems are fully funded by tax dollars. They differ from the public 
schools only in that they are privately owned and operated. 

> And you will end up having a repeat of the same problems your public system 
> is having now, simply because the problem is with holding the system 
> accountable.
> And probably, some smart Johnny will repeat the process
> You don't need competition, you need accountability.

Accountability is paramount, but it can't come when schools are political 
footballs and the worst teachers are protected by union contracts. Alternative 
choices are forcing those schools to make teachers accountable. It's not 
happening quickly, but it's happening. 


> 
> bill
> 
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread Larry Colen

On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 01:59:15PM -0400, Paul Stenquist wrote:
> 
> On Apr 9, 2013, at 1:21 PM, Bill  wrote:
> 
> > On 09/04/2013 7:43 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote:
> > 
> > Why not just fix the public system instead?
> > 
> We've been trying to fix the public school system for fifty years. School 
> reform without additional motivation just hasn't  happened. Any discussion of 
> such a complex problem becomes overly simplified in a forum like this. But in 
> very general terms there are myriad reasons why public schools have continued 
> to fail, including powerful labor unions, politicians who depend on the labor 
> unions for votes, and school systems overburdened with administrators and 
> non-teaching personnel. To that add teacher education programs in the 1970s 
> and even into the '80s and '90s that ignored things like curriculum, 
> structure and discipline. 

Because, simply put, the problem isn't the schools. The problem is at home.
Children who come from families that put a high priority on education do well
in school.  If kids see their parents reading in their free time, they
will consider reading a viable leisure time activity. If they see their
parents watching TV, getting drunk etc. that's what they will consider
normal.

We live in a culture where people who excel at stick and ball games are 
worshipped as heros, where kids who speak properly, and do well in science and 
math are teased and taunted as socially awkward nerds and geeks. And, then
we wonder why are schools are failing us. 

Complaining about school performance in our culture, is like complaining
that you can't get decent photos because Pentax doesn't make a full frame
body, when you haven't even learned the basics well enough to get the 
best performance out of the cameras they do make.

See, I can drag this topic, kicking and screaming back to the topic of 
photography.

The reason that kids in charter schools do better is simply because they
have parents that care enough about their education to put them in 
what they perceive as better schools.  Those kids would still do better 
than their peers in public schools.  The biggest effect of charter schools,
vouchers etc. is to separate the kids who have parents that care about 
their education from the ones who don't.

> 
> I was a product of late sixties and early seventies teacher education. They 
> taught us that if we loved  our students enough they would learn. They 
> didn't, and trying to teach in schools that were founded on those hazy 
> principles was like getting run over by a freight train. Our educational 
> system is only now beginning to recover from the mistakes of the past. But 
> there has to be motivation to do better. Without competition, there is not 
> sufficient motivation in many communities.  
> 
> Public schools will survive given the vested interest that a large portion of 
> the population has in their continued existence. Charters won't ever replace 
> them completely. It's doubtful that we'd ever get to 50% charters. But to 
> ensure survival, public schools will have to complete. They can no longer be 
> lazy and take their position for granted. And that's happening in a lot of 
> places. 
> 
> This discussion seems to assume that the existence of charter shoals and 
> voucher systems is up for debate. It's not. They're operating and, in many 
> places, succeeding. We still have much to learn about how they should be 
> regulated and on what basis they should be allowed to compete, but going back 
> to a schools system that is operated only by the government isn't going to 
> happen. That's history.
> > -- 
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread Bill


On 09/04/2013 11:59 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote:
Public schools will survive given the vested interest that a large 
portion of the population has in their continued existence. Charters 
won't ever replace them completely. It's doubtful that we'd ever get 
to 50% charters. But to ensure survival, public schools will have to 
complete. They can no longer be lazy and take their position for 
granted. And that's happening in a lot of places. This discussion 
seems to assume that the existence of charter shoals and voucher 
systems is up for debate. It's not. They're operating and, in many 
places, succeeding. We still have much to learn about how they should 
be regulated and on what basis they should be allowed to compete, but 
going back to a schools system that is operated only by the government 
isn't going to happen. That's history.


And in the end you will have a two tiered public education system of 
pure public schools funded completely by taxes and charter schools 
funded mostly by the public purse, with a large contingent of charter 
school parents annoyed that they are paying 100% of their child's 
tuition, while most of the people in the class are there on subsidies, 
and the whole thing will fall apart because of the human nature of 
people not wanting to "pay someone else's freight". And you will end up 
having a repeat of the same problems your public system is having now, 
simply because the problem is with holding the system accountable.

And probably, some smart Johnny will repeat the process
You don't need competition, you need accountability.

bill

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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested


On Apr 9, 2013, at 1:21 PM, Bill  wrote:

> On 09/04/2013 7:43 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote:
> 
> > That's why voucher funded charter schools are needed in those other areas. 
> > They can provide the competition for the public schools. >Community 
> > involvement is another thing, but having an alternative to  the public 
> > schools is a start.
> 
> And when all the kids are going to charter schools via a voucher program, you 
> will have a de facto public schools system which is funded by a combination 
> of public funding and private tuition, probably to the chagrin of the people 
> on the private funding side (why should we pay our freight when the majority 
> don't?), but is a given that it will be much more expensive than the public 
> system it has replaced.
> Why not just fix the public system instead?
> 
We've been trying to fix the public school system for fifty years. School 
reform without additional motivation just hasn't  happened. Any discussion of 
such a complex problem becomes overly simplified in a forum like this. But in 
very general terms there are myriad reasons why public schools have continued 
to fail, including powerful labor unions, politicians who depend on the labor 
unions for votes, and school systems overburdened with administrators and 
non-teaching personnel. To that add teacher education programs in the 1970s and 
even into the '80s and '90s that ignored things like curriculum, structure and 
discipline. 

I was a product of late sixties and early seventies teacher education. They 
taught us that if we loved  our students enough they would learn. They didn't, 
and trying to teach in schools that were founded on those hazy principles was 
like getting run over by a freight train. Our educational system is only now 
beginning to recover from the mistakes of the past. But there has to be 
motivation to do better. Without competition, there is not sufficient 
motivation in many communities.  

Public schools will survive given the vested interest that a large portion of 
the population has in their continued existence. Charters won't ever replace 
them completely. It's doubtful that we'd ever get to 50% charters. But to 
ensure survival, public schools will have to complete. They can no longer be 
lazy and take their position for granted. And that's happening in a lot of 
places. 

This discussion seems to assume that the existence of charter shoals and 
voucher systems is up for debate. It's not. They're operating and, in many 
places, succeeding. We still have much to learn about how they should be 
regulated and on what basis they should be allowed to compete, but going back 
to a schools system that is operated only by the government isn't going to 
happen. That's history.
> -- 
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread Bob Sullivan

I went to Catholic grade school as a yute.
I don't think they paid the nuns to much.
And retirement benefits are kind of iffy.
Just sayin'...

On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Bill  wrote:
> On 09/04/2013 7:43 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>
>> That's why voucher funded charter schools are needed in those other areas.
>> They can provide the competition for the public schools. >Community
>> involvement is another thing, but having an alternative to  the public
>> schools is a start.
>
> And when all the kids are going to charter schools via a voucher program,
> you will have a de facto public schools system which is funded by a
> combination of public funding and private tuition, probably to the chagrin
> of the people on the private funding side (why should we pay our freight
> when the majority don't?), but is a given that it will be much more
> expensive than the public system it has replaced.
> Why not just fix the public system instead?
>
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested

2013-04-09 Thread Bill

On 09/04/2013 7:43 AM, Paul Stenquist wrote:

> That's why voucher funded charter schools are needed in those other 
areas. They can provide the competition for the public schools. 
>Community involvement is another thing, but having an alternative to  
the public schools is a start.

And when all the kids are going to charter schools via a voucher 
program, you will have a de facto public schools system which is funded 
by a combination of public funding and private tuition, probably to the 
chagrin of the people on the private funding side (why should we pay our 
freight when the majority don't?), but is a given that it will be much 
more expensive than the public system it has replaced.

Why not just fix the public system instead?

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Re: Posting Photos of Street Art can get you arrested


On Apr 9, 2013, at 9:33 AM, Aahz Maruch  wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 09, 2013, Paul Stenquist wrote:
>> On Apr 8, 2013, at 11:41 PM, eactiv...@aol.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> There are a lot of people who believe in no  gods.
>> 
>> But those too have created gods in their own image, just as people
>> have done since the beginning of time.  Witness the Christmas displays
>> in Santa Monica stage by the atheists. They outdid all the religious
>> groups. They worship at the shrine of secularism. We all have our
>> gods.
> 
> Category error, you are warping other people's beliefs to suit your own.
> 
>"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone,
>"it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less."
> -- 

Not my beliefs. I'm agnostic. But mankind has always found something to believe 
in, and a new system of beliefs always involves rejection of the old. Today's 
secularists are to christians what the christians  and jews were to sun 
worshipers thousands of years ago. 

> Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/
>  <*>   <*>   <*>
> Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
> 
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Re: Posting photos of street art can get you arrested