[PHP] zend framework getIdentity
Hey Folks,
Getting a weird error...
Fatal error: Uncaught exception 'Zend_Session_Exception' with message
'Zend_Session::start() -
/product/Messenger-dev/Messenger/library/Zend/Session.php(Line:480): Error
#2 Class __PHP_Incomplete_Class has no unserializer Array' in
/product/Messenger-dev/Messenger/library/Zend/Session.php:493
Stack trace:
#0
/product/Messenger-dev/Messenger/library/Zend/Session/Namespace.php(143):
Zend_Session::start(true)
#1
/product/Messenger-dev/Messenger/library/Zend/Auth/Storage/Session.php(87):
Zend_Session_Namespace-__construct('Zend_Auth')
#2 /product/Messenger-dev/Messenger/library/Zend/Auth.php(91):
Zend_Auth_Storage_Session-__construct()
#3 /product/Messenger-dev/Messenger/library/Zend/Auth.php(151):
Zend_Auth-getStorage()
#4
/product/Messenger-dev/Messenger/library/Messenger/Core/Db/Profiler/Log.php(53):
Zend_Auth-getIdentity()
#5
/product/Messenger-dev/Messenger/library/Lm/Application/Resource/Config.php(18):
Messenger_Core_Db_Profiler_Log-__construct()
#6 /product/Messenger-dev/Messenger/library/Zend/Application/Bootstr in
/product/Messenger-dev/Messenger/library/Zend/Session.php on line 493
This seems to be triggered by:
$this-_identity = Zend_Auth::getInstance()-getIdentity();
Has anyone seen this error before? Its throwing me for a loop
--
-Dan Joseph
http://www.danjoseph.me
http://www.dansrollingbbq.com
http://www.youtube.com/DansRollingBBQ
[PHP] Zend Framework Tutorial
Hi people, I wanna share the tutorial about Zend Framework there I'm doing http://www.yuriyarlei.net/en/zend-framework-how-to-develop-introduction Att, Yuri Yarlei. Java - OCJP 6 ZCE - Zend Certified Engineer for php 5.3 www.yuriyarlei.net/en PHP, JAVA, CSS, ORACLE 10g, PostgreSQL;
Re: [PHP] Zend Amf and Drupal?
Silence ? I havn't got any responses from drupal.org, and i think its very quiet here too? Should I start to analyze the code to understand the inner workings? Can anyone give some advise on where to get more information? Or... is there another proven way to communicate between Flash and PHP/Drupal? Regards Lars Nielsen lør, 29 10 2011 kl. 12:53 +0200, skrev Lars Nielsen: Hey List, I am making a webservice in Drupal with AMF Zend to provide some methods to a Flash app. I have now managed to use standard Drupal services (node,user and files) and I have made my own method to create users. But! ... When I try to pass on arguments from Flash to Drupal it fails. It says that it expects zero arguments but I have provided 4 arguments. I have posted some info here : http://drupal.org/node/1323678 Can you give me some guidelines? or pointers on what to do? Kind Regards Lars Nielsen www.lfweb.dk / www.gearworks.dk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Zend Amf and Drupal?
Hey List, I am making a webservice in Drupal with AMF Zend to provide some methods to a Flash app. I have now managed to use standard Drupal services (node,user and files) and I have made my own method to create users. But! ... When I try to pass on arguments from Flash to Drupal it fails. It says that it expects zero arguments but I have provided 4 arguments. I have posted some info here : http://drupal.org/node/1323678 Can you give me some guidelines? or pointers on what to do? Kind Regards Lars Nielsen www.lfweb.dk / www.gearworks.dk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework - getParam() Question
Howdy,
Mid, Net, thanks for the tips! I actually didn't have the proper .htaccess
settings that ZF wanted, and I needed to add a router :)
Thank you both!
-Dan
On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 12:48 AM, Midhun Girish midhungir...@gmail.comwrote:
You can also try routing in zend..
http://codeutopia.net/blog/2007/11/16/routing-and-complex-urls-in-zend-framework/
Midhun Girish
On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 11:16 AM, NetEmp net.ser...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Dan
One method for this is to use URL Rewriting (which can be implemented on
Apache using htaccess).
Through URL Rewriting you can first make the following URL:
http://www.website.com/article-clean-url
http://www.website.com/article-clean-urlto internally behave as the
following:
http://www.website.com/index/user/ http://www.website.com/index/user/11
http://www.website.com/index/user/1and then you can use the same
getParam
method to grab the value and carry out further processing.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
NetEmp
On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 10:04 AM, Dan Joseph dmjos...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Everyone,
Zend Framework getParam question
I'm trying to get a value from the url...
I know how to grab:
http;//www.website.com/index/user/1
that's the index controller, $this-_getParam('user'); (value = 1)..
What I'd like to be able to grab is just off one thing from the url...
example.. I want to give an article a unique/clean url... so, when I go
to:
http://www.website.com/article-clean-url
I can somehow grab that 'article-clean-url' as a value and use it for a
lookup in the database.
I've tried everything and search all over the place. I can't find the
answer. Can someone tell me how this is done? Thanks...
--
-Dan Joseph
--
-Dan Joseph
[PHP] Zend Framework - getParam() Question
Hi Everyone,
Zend Framework getParam question
I'm trying to get a value from the url...
I know how to grab:
http;//www.website.com/index/user/1
that's the index controller, $this-_getParam('user'); (value = 1)..
What I'd like to be able to grab is just off one thing from the url...
example.. I want to give an article a unique/clean url... so, when I go to:
http://www.website.com/article-clean-url
I can somehow grab that 'article-clean-url' as a value and use it for a
lookup in the database.
I've tried everything and search all over the place. I can't find the
answer. Can someone tell me how this is done? Thanks...
--
-Dan Joseph
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework - getParam() Question
Hi Dan
One method for this is to use URL Rewriting (which can be implemented on
Apache using htaccess).
Through URL Rewriting you can first make the following URL:
http://www.website.com/article-clean-url
http://www.website.com/article-clean-urlto internally behave as the
following:
http://www.website.com/index/user/ http://www.website.com/index/user/11
http://www.website.com/index/user/1and then you can use the same getParam
method to grab the value and carry out further processing.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
NetEmp
On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 10:04 AM, Dan Joseph dmjos...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Everyone,
Zend Framework getParam question
I'm trying to get a value from the url...
I know how to grab:
http;//www.website.com/index/user/1
that's the index controller, $this-_getParam('user'); (value = 1)..
What I'd like to be able to grab is just off one thing from the url...
example.. I want to give an article a unique/clean url... so, when I go
to:
http://www.website.com/article-clean-url
I can somehow grab that 'article-clean-url' as a value and use it for a
lookup in the database.
I've tried everything and search all over the place. I can't find the
answer. Can someone tell me how this is done? Thanks...
--
-Dan Joseph
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework - getParam() Question
You can also try routing in zend..
http://codeutopia.net/blog/2007/11/16/routing-and-complex-urls-in-zend-framework/
Midhun Girish
On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 11:16 AM, NetEmp net.ser...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Dan
One method for this is to use URL Rewriting (which can be implemented on
Apache using htaccess).
Through URL Rewriting you can first make the following URL:
http://www.website.com/article-clean-url
http://www.website.com/article-clean-urlto internally behave as the
following:
http://www.website.com/index/user/ http://www.website.com/index/user/11
http://www.website.com/index/user/1and then you can use the same
getParam
method to grab the value and carry out further processing.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
NetEmp
On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 10:04 AM, Dan Joseph dmjos...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Everyone,
Zend Framework getParam question
I'm trying to get a value from the url...
I know how to grab:
http;//www.website.com/index/user/1
that's the index controller, $this-_getParam('user'); (value = 1)..
What I'd like to be able to grab is just off one thing from the url...
example.. I want to give an article a unique/clean url... so, when I go
to:
http://www.website.com/article-clean-url
I can somehow grab that 'article-clean-url' as a value and use it for a
lookup in the database.
I've tried everything and search all over the place. I can't find the
answer. Can someone tell me how this is done? Thanks...
--
-Dan Joseph
RE: [PHP] Zend memory manager
From the search results, you'd see several links http://forums.zend.com. I'd say that's the best place to ask ;) From: Adi Mutu [mailto:adi_mut...@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 11:07 PM To: Tommy Pham Cc: php-general@lists.php.net; Daniel Brown Subject: Re: [PHP] Zend memory manager Of course I have tried, but nothing ... The results or only aboyt emalloc/pemalloc familly. Nothing lower level about how these 2 functions are implemented or about the mm_heap struct of mm_block.
RE: [PHP] Zend memory manager
I have asked also there..but no answerBut honestly i don't understand why you have reccomended me that forum..because i thougt these mailing lists are about php developing... Thanks,A.
Re: [PHP] Zend memory manager
On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 14:17, Adi Mutu adi_mut...@yahoo.com wrote: I have asked also there..but no answerBut honestly i don't understand why you have reccomended me that forum..because i thougt these mailing lists are about php developing... Because this is about developing in PHP in general, not what makes PHP work. You don't seem to be making the distinction. To clarify, again: This is not the place to ask. At best, you could use the Internals mailing list, but to be perfectly honest, I doubt you'll get the help you're seeking with what you've asked. Still, you can try: intern...@lists.php.net. -- /Daniel P. Brown Network Infrastructure Manager Documentation, Webmaster Teams http://www.php.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Zend Memory Manager
Hello, This is my first mail here, i hope it's ok. Can somebody give me any hint to some docs about how the Zend mm works? I can't find any references on the net. I'm not interested in only emalloc, efree etc. but at an even lower level i mean about functions like _zend_mm_alloc_int, _zend_mm_alloc_int and structs like zend_mm_heap. Thanks, A.
[PHP] Zend memory manager
Hello, This is my first mail here, i hope it's ok. Can somebody give me any hint to some docs about how the Zend mm works? I can't find any references on the net. I'm not interested in only emalloc, efree etc. but at an even lower level i mean about functions like _zend_mm_alloc_int, _zend_mm_alloc_int and structs like zend_mm_heap. Thanks, A.
Re: [PHP] Zend memory manager
On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 09:10, Adi Mutu adi_mut...@yahoo.com wrote: Hello, This is my first mail here, i hope it's ok. Can somebody give me any hint to some docs about how the Zend mm works? I can't find any references on the net. I'm not interested in only emalloc, efree etc. but at an even lower level i mean about functions like _zend_mm_alloc_int, _zend_mm_alloc_int and structs like zend_mm_heap. No, this is your second email. If you're interested in knowing how the lower-level stuff works, why not just view the source itself? This question is beyond the scope of this list. -- /Daniel P. Brown Network Infrastructure Manager Documentation, Webmaster Teams http://www.php.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend memory manager
I have looked at the sources, but it's still not very clear to me Where should I ask this question than.? Sorry for the inconveniences! Thanks,
RE: [PHP] Zend memory manager
-Original Message- From: Adi Mutu [mailto:adi_mut...@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 12:14 PM To: Daniel Brown Cc: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] Zend memory manager I have looked at the sources, but it's still not very clear to me Where should I ask this question than.? Sorry for the inconveniences! Thanks, Have you tried google'ing for: zend php memory manager ? Seems to return some interesting results. Regards, Tommy -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend memory manager
Of course I have tried, but nothing ... The results or only aboyt emalloc/pemalloc familly. Nothing lower level about how these 2 functions are implemented or about the mm_heap struct of mm_block.
Re: [PHP] Zend studio location Cross-Domain Scripting Vulnerability
On 13 October 2010 05:25, Thijs Lensselink d...@lenss.nl wrote: On 10/13/2010 12:19 AM, Daevid Vincent wrote: http://80vul.com/Zend%20studio/Zend%20studio%20location%20Cross.htm Interesting. A co-worker and I were JUST noticing how our PHPDoc comments were being parsed pretty much verbatim includingb tags and links and stuff and thought, wow, that's stupid, that's just a XSS or injection waiting to happen. LOL. Guess someone's ears were burning. ;-) Why didn't you inform Zend before you went full disclosure? It's a nasty bug though!! Yesterday, I installed PDT for the first time. Created the scenario for this vulnerability. Get an exception. MS Visual Studio shows a HTML block with the script tag in it and that is highlighted as the error. Microsoft JScript runtime error: Automation server can't create object. -- Richard Quadling Twitter : EE : Zend @RQuadling : e-e.com/M_248814.html : bit.ly/9O8vFY -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Zend studio location Cross-Domain Scripting Vulnerability
-Original Message- From: Thijs Lensselink [mailto:d...@lenss.nl] Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:26 PM To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] Zend studio location Cross-Domain Scripting Vulnerability On 10/13/2010 12:19 AM, Daevid Vincent wrote: http://80vul.com/Zend%20studio/Zend%20studio%20location%20Cross.htm Interesting. A co-worker and I were JUST noticing how our PHPDoc comments were being parsed pretty much verbatim includingb tags and links and stuff and thought, wow, that's stupid, that's just a XSS or injection waiting to happen. LOL. Guess someone's ears were burning. ;-) Why didn't you inform Zend before you went full disclosure? It's a nasty bug though!! You misunderstand. *I* did not write that web page. It was just coincidence that *I* encountered the same thing the other day and then someone on Reddit posted that URL. That's all. Timing. Thought I'd share with the PHP community here though since many of us use Zend (and perhaps PDT and Aptana have the same issue?) d -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Zend studio location Cross-Domain Scripting Vulnerability
http://80vul.com/Zend%20studio/Zend%20studio%20location%20Cross.htm Interesting. A co-worker and I were JUST noticing how our PHPDoc comments were being parsed pretty much verbatim including b tags and links and stuff and thought, wow, that's stupid, that's just a XSS or injection waiting to happen. LOL. Guess someone's ears were burning. ;-) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend studio location Cross-Domain Scripting Vulnerability
On 10/13/2010 12:19 AM, Daevid Vincent wrote: http://80vul.com/Zend%20studio/Zend%20studio%20location%20Cross.htm Interesting. A co-worker and I were JUST noticing how our PHPDoc comments were being parsed pretty much verbatim includingb tags and links and stuff and thought, wow, that's stupid, that's just a XSS or injection waiting to happen. LOL. Guess someone's ears were burning. ;-) Why didn't you inform Zend before you went full disclosure? It's a nasty bug though!! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend framework
On 10 September 2010 02:33, chris h chris...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all, I'm starting a new project and I'm thinking about building it on Zend framework and possibly Zend server. I've only used the framework slightly and I've never really used Zend server. That being said I hear that the framework is pretty decent to work with. I want something that is strict and uses OOP MVC well, and I hear it does; though I also have the impression that it's slow and bloated... Anyways, I was curious if any of you have some general advice / good things / horror stories on the Zend framework? Thanks, Chris. I use part of ZF (Zend's autoloader, SOAP and AutoDiscovering of WSDL). Whilst I have to install all the framework, I'm not tied to using all of it. I don't, for example, use the MVC. Being able to truly mix and match the classes I want is of great benefit to me. I can slowly learn the code I need to use rather than jumping in at the deep end and struggle trying to do everything. Regards, -- Richard Quadling Twitter : EE : Zend @RQuadling : e-e.com/M_248814.html : bit.ly/9O8vFY -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Zend framework
http://www.php.net/manual/en/language.oop5.basic.php -Original Message- From: David Harkness [mailto:davi...@highgearmedia.com] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 10:59 AM To: rquadl...@googlemail.com Cc: chris h; PHP-General Subject: Re: [PHP] Zend framework We use part of Zend MVC (the dispatcher, controllers, and view scripts) here and a lot of the other facilities such as the autoloader, config, etc. and are very happy so far. As long as you design your application with an eye toward portability, you won't be tied to ZF. For example, put all of your business logic in model classes instead of the controllers themselves. That way if you ever need to move to a new presentation layer or use the business logic outside it (e.g. in SOAP or RPC messages), you'll be ready. David -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Zend framework
Sorry wrong thread. Damnit. I meant that link for the guy that didn't know what the - was for... -Original Message- From: Daevid Vincent [mailto:dae...@daevid.com] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 12:01 PM To: 'David Harkness' Cc: 'PHP-General' Subject: RE: [PHP] Zend framework http://www.php.net/manual/en/language.oop5.basic.php -Original Message- From: David Harkness [mailto:davi...@highgearmedia.com] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 10:59 AM To: rquadl...@googlemail.com Cc: chris h; PHP-General Subject: Re: [PHP] Zend framework We use part of Zend MVC (the dispatcher, controllers, and view scripts) here and a lot of the other facilities such as the autoloader, config, etc. and are very happy so far. As long as you design your application with an eye toward portability, you won't be tied to ZF. For example, put all of your business logic in model classes instead of the controllers themselves. That way if you ever need to move to a new presentation layer or use the business logic outside it (e.g. in SOAP or RPC messages), you'll be ready. David -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend framework
Thanks for the info everyone, this is pretty much what I was expecting to hear about it. I think I'll probably stick to using it as a toolkit. Thanks, Chris. On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 3:01 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: Sorry wrong thread. Damnit. I meant that link for the guy that didn't know what the - was for... -Original Message- From: Daevid Vincent [mailto:dae...@daevid.com] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 12:01 PM To: 'David Harkness' Cc: 'PHP-General' Subject: RE: [PHP] Zend framework http://www.php.net/manual/en/language.oop5.basic.php -Original Message- From: David Harkness [mailto:davi...@highgearmedia.com] Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 10:59 AM To: rquadl...@googlemail.com Cc: chris h; PHP-General Subject: Re: [PHP] Zend framework We use part of Zend MVC (the dispatcher, controllers, and view scripts) here and a lot of the other facilities such as the autoloader, config, etc. and are very happy so far. As long as you design your application with an eye toward portability, you won't be tied to ZF. For example, put all of your business logic in model classes instead of the controllers themselves. That way if you ever need to move to a new presentation layer or use the business logic outside it (e.g. in SOAP or RPC messages), you'll be ready. David -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Zend framework
Hello all, I'm starting a new project and I'm thinking about building it on Zend framework and possibly Zend server. I've only used the framework slightly and I've never really used Zend server. That being said I hear that the framework is pretty decent to work with. I want something that is strict and uses OOP MVC well, and I hear it does; though I also have the impression that it's slow and bloated... Anyways, I was curious if any of you have some general advice / good things / horror stories on the Zend framework? Thanks, Chris.
Re: [PHP] Zend framework
Chris- While I find Zend to be more of a wonderful set of libraries then a framework, it does do both and is a good introduction. I do most of my framework coding on CodeIgniter though. Regards, -JOsh Joshua Kehn | josh.k...@gmail.com http://joshuakehn.com On Sep 9, 2010, at 9:33 PM, chris h wrote: Hello all, I'm starting a new project and I'm thinking about building it on Zend framework and possibly Zend server. I've only used the framework slightly and I've never really used Zend server. That being said I hear that the framework is pretty decent to work with. I want something that is strict and uses OOP MVC well, and I hear it does; though I also have the impression that it's slow and bloated... Anyways, I was curious if any of you have some general advice / good things / horror stories on the Zend framework? Thanks, Chris. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Zend Framework Ebook
Hello, does anyone have any zend framework 1.10 ebook recomendations. -- A Brandon_R Production
[PHP] Zend DB Table - WHERE as OR?
Hi Everyone, I'm trying to figure out if something is even an option with the Zend Framework. We use the DB Table stuff. I don't see it in the manual, so I figured I'd ask you all... I have: $select = $table-select()-where( home_team_id = ?, $home_team_id ) -where( away_team_id = ?, $away_team_id ); This translates the where's to home_team_id = 12 AND away_team_id = 15... What I'd like to have is home_team_id = 12 OR away_team_id = 15. Is this possible? Or would I just need to build them all into a single where() manually? -- -Dan Joseph www.canishosting.com - Unlimited Hosting Plans start @ $3.95/month. Promo Code NEWTHINGS for 10% off initial order http://www.facebook.com/canishosting http://www.facebook.com/originalpoetry
Re: [PHP] Zend DB Table - WHERE as OR?
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Andrew Ballard aball...@gmail.com wrote: Try this: ?php $select = $table-select()-where( home_team_id = ?, $home_team_id ) -orWhere( away_team_id = ?, $away_team_id ); Perfect...thank you! -- -Dan Joseph www.canishosting.com - Unlimited Hosting Plans start @ $3.95/month. Promo Code NEWTHINGS for 10% off initial order http://www.facebook.com/canishosting http://www.facebook.com/originalpoetry
Re: [PHP] Zend DB Table - WHERE as OR?
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 3:15 PM, Dan Joseph dmjos...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Everyone, I'm trying to figure out if something is even an option with the Zend Framework. We use the DB Table stuff. I don't see it in the manual, so I figured I'd ask you all... I have: $select = $table-select()-where( home_team_id = ?, $home_team_id ) -where( away_team_id = ?, $away_team_id ); This translates the where's to home_team_id = 12 AND away_team_id = 15... What I'd like to have is home_team_id = 12 OR away_team_id = 15. Is this possible? Or would I just need to build them all into a single where() manually? -- -Dan Joseph Try this: ?php $select = $table-select()-where( home_team_id = ?, $home_team_id ) -orWhere( away_team_id = ?, $away_team_id ); Andrew -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Zend debugger doesn't work
Hi I have installed php 5.3.1 (with thread safety = on) recently And I tried to install zend debugger yesterday. I downloaded zend debugger extension from http://downloads.zend.com/pdt/server-debugger/ But I didn't find dll module for 5.3.x release. So I tried dll file in 5_2_x_comp folder. When I start Apache, I have a line in log file that says: Apache/2.2.14 (Win32) PHP/5.3.1 configured -- resuming normal operations And phpinfo() says nothing about debugger module! What do you think about this thing? I haven't seen any error, But there is no debug session! Should I wait for 5.3.x release of zend debugger? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Guard/Optimizer alternatives?
Brian Dunning schreef: I should mention that I did try the ionCube online encoder, which I think is a great idea... but its runtimes failed to load on both of my test systems, requiring editing of php.ini. That's over the top for my users. I need something that's rock-solid and that will never require my users to have to know anything or do anything special (they are business people, not developers or server admins). use a legal contract. or make the functionality dependent on a webservice hosted on your server (and stick the meat of the functionality on your end). or get a client you can trust not to rape you. On Feb 16, 2009, at 9:10 AM, Brian Dunning wrote: Is there a cheaper alternative to Guard/Optimizer? I have a single small PHP file that is part of a larger solution I sell, and I want it to be protected - and it has to be a runtime so it will run on anyone's standard PHP server. Zend's $600 was a little bit of sticker shock. Any alternatives? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Zend Guard/Optimizer alternatives?
Is there a cheaper alternative to Guard/Optimizer? I have a single small PHP file that is part of a larger solution I sell, and I want it to be protected - and it has to be a runtime so it will run on anyone's standard PHP server. Zend's $600 was a little bit of sticker shock. Any alternatives? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Guard/Optimizer alternatives?
I should mention that I did try the ionCube online encoder, which I think is a great idea... but its runtimes failed to load on both of my test systems, requiring editing of php.ini. That's over the top for my users. I need something that's rock-solid and that will never require my users to have to know anything or do anything special (they are business people, not developers or server admins). On Feb 16, 2009, at 9:10 AM, Brian Dunning wrote: Is there a cheaper alternative to Guard/Optimizer? I have a single small PHP file that is part of a larger solution I sell, and I want it to be protected - and it has to be a runtime so it will run on anyone's standard PHP server. Zend's $600 was a little bit of sticker shock. Any alternatives? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Guard/Optimizer alternatives?
I should mention that I did try the ionCube online encoder, which I think is a great idea... but its runtimes failed to load on both of my test systems, requiring editing of php.ini. That's over the top for my users. I need something that's rock-solid and that will never require my users to have to know anything or do anything special (they are business people, not developers or server admins). On Feb 16, 2009, at 9:10 AM, Brian Dunning wrote: Is there a cheaper alternative to Guard/Optimizer? I have a single small PHP file that is part of a larger solution I sell, and I want it to be protected - and it has to be a runtime so it will run on anyone's standard PHP server. Zend's $600 was a little bit of sticker shock. Any alternatives? There is this pecl extension that I tested once and it works: http://pecl.php.net/package/bcompiler Your users won't need to do anything special if you encode the PHP projects that you host (in case I am getting this right). But there are no magical solutions to anything. -- Thodoris -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Zend Framework and IIS
Is anyone running Zend Framework under IIS? If so, how do you have it configured? (ISAPI versus FastCGI, etc.) Do you use any code optimizers? The reason I ask is because we set it up on a couple servers where I work and it is dreadfully slow. Just to render a basic page with no data connection (the index of the tutorial project I downloaded from the ZF site) takes nearly 5, sometimes nearly 10, seconds -- with eAccelerator running! I've run a couple other small sites with ZF on shared (Linux) hosting and had no problems with it. (I know, I know - switch to Linux. Not an option right now.) Is ZF really just that slow under IIS? Andrew -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 23:54 -0500, Paul M Foster wrote: On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 04:20:16AM -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 21:17 -0500, Paul M Foster wrote: Incidentally, I would differ from the reviewer in the link above only in this respect: He maintains that every line of code adds time. While this is true, I believe it's the number of files which have to be opened which drags down framework numbers the most. When I wrote C code, the CPU would blaze through the actual code, but file opens and reads consumed far more time than in-memory code execution. Moot point if you're using an accelerator like eAccelerator or APC since these cache the data in memory. Similarly, most operating systems cache file reads also, so it's probably not as expensive without an accelerator as you think either. Perhaps, but since much of the C code I've written is on Linux servers like those used by most of the hosting companies, and since I can't control whether they do or don't cache pages, my personal experience (and simple logic) guides me to believe file manipulation is far more time consuming than simple manipulation of strings, number and arrays. A goo compile cache will take care of that if you tell it not to bother checking for newer source files. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 00:06 -0500, Paul M Foster wrote: On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 04:17:51AM -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 21:17 -0500, Paul M Foster wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 01:39:02PM -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote: snip The pages are significantly slower than straight PHP by orders of magnitude: [1]http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 What a great link! I've never seen this kind of comparison before. HTML is 70% faster than straight PHP, and the frameworks (even codeigniter) deliver less than 20% of the performance of straight PHP. It's not a fair comparison. It's like saying here's a bucket of water. I want you to take it across the road using one of the following methods: I wouldn't consider it a truly scientific comparison. The testing method seems a little odd to me. Nonetheless, the point is makes is clear: PHP is 70% (more or less) efficient in rendering pages than straight HTML, Let's be perfectly clear here... plain HTML has no dyanmic functionality. and the best frameworks are only about 20% as efficient as straight PHP. No, that is WRONG. The study shows that the best framworks are about 20% as efficient as straight PHP to output hello world. Don't confuse yourself. Any large enough application will begin to converge with a framework's speed... ESPECIALLY due to to I/O bottlenecks. We can argue about the exact numbers, No, I don't care about the exact numbers, I care about a proper analysis. but the results make clear that for speed HTML PHP frameworks. (And really, can you logically argue that point?) Yes I can. From this, you don't draw the conclusion to not use frameworks or PHP. From this, you now know one of the trade-offs in using PHP and frameworks. And you get some idea of the magnitude of its impact. Yes, you get a tradeoff chart between frameworks... but any sufficiently developed applicaiton will itself resemble a framework when all is said and done. (These guys didn't even bother to test HTML with a bunch of Javascript or complex CSS in it. Might PHP have been faster?) It doesn't matter. We're talking server processing time here. Is *coding* faster and more efficient with frameworks? Sure. Does the code execute as fast? No. Not necessarily true. If execution speed is your priority, then you either scrap the framework, resort to a caching solution (which some of the frameworks already have in place, but which the testers didn't test), or figure something else out (like C?). If execution speed isn't your priority, then you might look instead at a framework. You have an extremely narrow point of view. Anyway, the survey is just a tool which lets you know about one of the trade-offs in web design. I doubt any other method of testing would skew the results all that much. It's a flawed tool. A tool that provides wrong or biased data is worse than a tool that provides none at all. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
I think Daevid has some valid points although I think frameworks still have a lot of value, I've recently learned to use the CakePHP framework and have been happy with the development time improvements. But more then that I've found it has made my applications more extensible and flexible. As to the point about training new employees to the framework - in my experience I would have much prefered previous colleagues to have used a framework which would at least provide a reference for me to use rather than seeing several development styles throughout the code and inconsistent documentation. No, frameworks are not silver bullets but still a useful programming tool in the right situations/applications. Cheers, Ewen 2009/1/15 Phpster phps...@gmail.com Core files are what my plans include too. Bastien Sent from my iPod On Jan 14, 2009, at 9:26 PM, Kyle Terry k...@kyleterry.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 6:17 PM, Paul M Foster pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 01:39:02PM -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote: Not to start a Holy War (as these to framework or not to framework debates often turn into), but I personally had a horrible experience with using frameworks. I was forced to use Symfony at my last job and it was so cumbersome and slow to do even the simplest things. The whole MVC thing can be overkill. Plus the learning curve can be quite steep. Then if you want to hire other developers to work with you, you have to train them and let them ramp up on not only the framework but also your core project too! More wasted time. The pages are significantly slower than straight PHP by orders of magnitude: [1]http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 What a great link! I've never seen this kind of comparison before. HTML is 70% faster than straight PHP, and the frameworks (even codeigniter) deliver less than 20% of the performance of straight PHP. The basic problem with frameworks is they try to be one thing for all people. This carries a lot of baggage with it. There's a lot of crap you end up pulling in that you don't want/need. Plus if you want to deviate at all, you either have to roll your own, or sometimes you simply just can't. They seem attractive with all their plugins and stuff, but honestly, rarely do the plugins do EXACTLY what you want, the way you want. It might be as simple as trying to change the look/feel of a button or something and you'll find out that you can't -- so now you have this website that has this section that doesn't look like the rest of your site. And if you find a bug, you have to try to either fix it yourself and then keep those changes migrated into new updates, or submit it to the developer and hope they implement them (and trust me, you can submit to them and have them rejected for all sorts of lame reasons -- even though the work has been done and you're using it!) I advise against it. Just follow good practices and use thin wrappers and functions. Don't get all OO googlie eyed and try to over-engineer and over-OO the code. OO is great for some things (like a User class) but don't start making some OO page renderer or form builder. Don't fall into the DB Abstraction trap either -- just use a wrapper around your DB calls (see attached), so you can swap out that wrapper if (and you almost never do) you change the DB. Don't be suckered by something like QuickForms -- you WILL run into limitations that you can't get around and are at their mercy. Don't buy the hype that DIV's are the magic bullet and TABLEs are poor design -- Tables are still the best and most ubiquitous way to align things in a browser agnostic way (including mobile phones, etc.) and to layout forms. I agree and disagree. I agree there's waaay too much herd mentality in the programming field. (Fortunately, Linus Torvalds didn't listen to the academics who insisted that microkernels where THE WAY, or we wouldn't have Linux today.) OO is nifty for some things, but it's certainly not the fountain of reusability it was originally promoted to be. And I also agree about tables versus CSS. I can render a page very precisely with tables that would take me hours to get right with CSS. And I really don't give a crap about what experts say about anything. I find experts to be wrong much of the time. OTOH, I just finished writing about 80K lines of PHP/HTML, all by hand, no OO, no classes, no nothing. Each page in one file, except for a few helper functions in a couple of common files. I wouldn't want to go through that again. I've opted for a framework on rewriting this code, just to cut down on the number of lines of code I have to manually write. But I built my own framework, which doesn't call in 20 files for each page load. Very compact. Probably not suitable for every kind of project, but it works for this.
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 14:28 -0800, Kyle Terry wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Eric Butera eric.but...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Robert Cummings rob...@interjinn.com wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 17:01 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 16:50 -0500, Eric Butera wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: http://daevid.com It appears your browser does not support some of the advanced features this site requires. That is pretty enteprisey! ;D I got the same message... 2001 called-- they'd like they're web technology back. Hmmm.. so I opened it up in Firefox and there's this little window just like one I programmed for IE/Firefox/Opera 4 years ago. Not sure why Opera isn't supported, or any other browser with JavaScript and CSS. Reall, if the browser doesn't support the window thingy, it should just degrade to a normal content box. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP I'm using Safari. :D -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php His website made firefox crash! =[! Well that would be a Firefox bug :) Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:47 -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 14:28 -0800, Kyle Terry wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Eric Butera eric.but...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Robert Cummings rob...@interjinn.com wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 17:01 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 16:50 -0500, Eric Butera wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: http://daevid.com It appears your browser does not support some of the advanced features this site requires. That is pretty enteprisey! ;D I got the same message... 2001 called-- they'd like they're web technology back. Hmmm.. so I opened it up in Firefox and there's this little window just like one I programmed for IE/Firefox/Opera 4 years ago. Not sure why Opera isn't supported, or any other browser with JavaScript and CSS. Reall, if the browser doesn't support the window thingy, it should just degrade to a normal content box. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP I'm using Safari. :D -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php His website made firefox crash! =[! Um. I am using FF on Ubuntu right now at work, and it works just fine. I develop at home on XP and IE6 and IE7 and it also works. I guarantee you that crash was not related to my site. All of you are spending way too much time on something that is besides the point. My personal site has NOTHING to do with Symfony/Zend/Cake/etc. frameworks per se. The reason you can't load it in safari is a Javascript check and not PHP -- again off topic from this conversation. It doesn't degrade nicely b/c I never bothered to implement the other part of the Winlike kit which will degrade (as you can see on their site http://www.winlike.net as I honestly don't really care about Safari users (like 7% of the market) to be honest. I'm not using Safari, I'm using Opera. That brings it up to about 9% *heheh*. Cheers, Rob. It's my own personal site and if a Mac person can't use FF to view it, it's not sweat off either of our backs.) http://www.macobserver.com/article/2008/07/01.9.shtml Can we please get back on topic? If you really want to see my credentials, then go here: http://resume.daevid.com or go to my personal site in Firefox or IE. A resume is a polished document specifically meant to extoll your virtues. Your personal website appears to be an example of your work ethic without attempting to extoll your virtues. You are the sum of your parts, each contributes to the body of knowledge about you. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Zend (or other) Framework...where to start?
Well, Symcell Corporation is *my* company, so I give you all right to use it :) I just dragged and dropped that file as an example. I'm a firm believer in FOSS and sharring code. That notice is basically some copy paste C.Y.A. and part of a standard header all my files have. If you prefer, then use it as a reference to see how I do things and re-write your own ;-) d -Original Message- From: Paul M Foster [mailto:pa...@quillandmouse.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 7:01 PM To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] Zend (or other) Framework...where to start? Um, your base.class.php belongs to your company and says at the top not to copy or distribute. Oops. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 21:17 -0500, Paul M Foster wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 01:39:02PM -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote: Not to start a Holy War (as these to framework or not to framework debates often turn into), but I personally had a horrible experience with using frameworks. I was forced to use Symfony at my last job and it was so cumbersome and slow to do even the simplest things. The whole MVC thing can be overkill. Plus the learning curve can be quite steep. Then if you want to hire other developers to work with you, you have to train them and let them ramp up on not only the framework but also your core project too! More wasted time. The pages are significantly slower than straight PHP by orders of magnitude: [1]http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 What a great link! I've never seen this kind of comparison before. HTML is 70% faster than straight PHP, and the frameworks (even codeigniter) deliver less than 20% of the performance of straight PHP. It's not a fair comparison. It's like saying here's a bucket of water. I want you to take it across the road using one of the following methods: a) Walking b) Driving a truck c) Flying an airplane Well of course a) wins in this contrived example because the truck requires you to open the door, put the key in the ignition, and start the truck (you may even have to walk to the gas station half a kilometre away first). Similarly for the airplane. However, very few web applications are a walk across the road. Some are... anything complex is not. Now, if I change the problem to something a little more realistic and instead ask that you bring a parcel to John Doe who just happens to live in Slumber Acres 5km outside of town... at the other side of town-- then tell me which is now the best option? Now, moving along... what if the parcel is to go to John Doe's grandmother who lives 4000km away in another country? You see, the study you read is contrived. By the time you are doing anything complex, you are VERY likely to incurr a similar startup cost as many a framework. So... the question is not whether frameworks are a good idea or not, it's what do they offer and how well were they built. Obviously some frameworks have terrible start up conditions and general run-time efficiency. However, they may be more modular in general, allowing you to quickly piece together an alternate mode of transportation rather than inventing your own airplane or car. Others will be quite quick but may not handle everything you throw at them or will require more low level programming to accomplish more complex tasks. And then there's the town fool... the person who wastes everyone's time declaring the sky is falling... or the world is coming to an end... or that frameworks are pointless and everyone should code from cratch in rote PHP. Pick the tool for the job... there are times a quick PHP script is the answer, and there are times when it is not. PHP is itself a framework over C. C is a framework over assembly. Assembly is a framework over machine language. Each of these incurrs a cost, but nobody is suggesting you write a website in assembly. Please DO develop your critical thinking before reading such sites and jumping to conclusions. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 21:17 -0500, Paul M Foster wrote: Incidentally, I would differ from the reviewer in the link above only in this respect: He maintains that every line of code adds time. While this is true, I believe it's the number of files which have to be opened which drags down framework numbers the most. When I wrote C code, the CPU would blaze through the actual code, but file opens and reads consumed far more time than in-memory code execution. Moot point if you're using an accelerator like eAccelerator or APC since these cache the data in memory. Similarly, most operating systems cache file reads also, so it's probably not as expensive without an accelerator as you think either. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend (or other) Framework...where to start?
On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 09:57 +0300, Usamah M. Ali wrote: On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:59 AM, Paul M Foster pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote: If you're going to go with a prebuilt framework, I'd recommend CodeIgniter for your first time out. If the docs look good to you (and they are pretty good), you'll probably do fine with it. It's about the lightest weight platform out there. It doesn't get in your way too much, but gives you the benefits of using a framework. I downloaded CI because of recommendations from this list as well, but was totally shocked when I discovered that its codebase is written in PHP4! I looked up for an alpha version that is written in PHP5 to no avail. I just can't understand why would they still be in PHP4 while Symfony, a framework born after CI, requires PHP5 since version one and takes full advantage of PHP5's advanced OO features! Does it work within a PHP5 environment? If so... why rewrite it? Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend (or other) Framework...where to start?
The question is interesting. I do another question: Will PHP5 support PHP4 backward compatibility forever? Ok I'm rediculous, forever not, but, until 5.3 or 6? I really don't know how CI thinks about evolution, but I'm very curious why don't use the new features that provide good evolution? It's Works don't seem to me one good reason to not do evolution. Mainly when some concepts are deprecated. I'm don't talking that CI is not good or enough, just, I offer IMHO some interesting questions. On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 7:21 AM, Robert Cummings rob...@interjinn.com wrote: On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 09:57 +0300, Usamah M. Ali wrote: On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:59 AM, Paul M Foster pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote: If you're going to go with a prebuilt framework, I'd recommend CodeIgniter for your first time out. If the docs look good to you (and they are pretty good), you'll probably do fine with it. It's about the lightest weight platform out there. It doesn't get in your way too much, but gives you the benefits of using a framework. I downloaded CI because of recommendations from this list as well, but was totally shocked when I discovered that its codebase is written in PHP4! I looked up for an alpha version that is written in PHP5 to no avail. I just can't understand why would they still be in PHP4 while Symfony, a framework born after CI, requires PHP5 since version one and takes full advantage of PHP5's advanced OO features! Does it work within a PHP5 environment? If so... why rewrite it? Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Abraços Edgar Ferreira da Silva Engenheiro de Software Campinas - SP (19) 8110-0733 http://edgarfs.com.br - Aprenda PHP, cole códigos, saiba das vagas de empregos: http://www.manjaphp.com.br -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend (or other) Framework...where to start?
On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 09:03 -0200, Edgar da Silva (Fly2k) wrote: The question is interesting. I do another question: Will PHP5 support PHP4 backward compatibility forever? Ok I'm rediculous, forever not, but, until 5.3 or 6? I think once PHP6 comes out we'll find that some PHP4 idiosyncracies currently tolerated by PHP5 will become fatal errors. At which point projects like CodeIgniter will probably cease PHP4 support and instead span their support across PHP5 and 6. I really don't know how CI thinks about evolution, but I'm very curious why don't use the new features that provide good evolution? I think that's partly a question of what one considers a good feature. Just because a feature exists doesn't mean it should necessarily be used. It's Works don't seem to me one good reason to not do evolution. Mainly when some concepts are deprecated. I'm don't talking that CI is not good or enough, just, I offer IMHO some interesting questions. I don't know how CI works, just that I also maintain backward compatibility for my framework to PHP4. However, I'm finding now that there's not much point since almost all of my client applications are now running on PHP5. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend (or other) Framework...where to start?
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Robert Cummings rob...@interjinn.com wrote: On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 09:03 -0200, Edgar da Silva (Fly2k) wrote: The question is interesting. I do another question: Will PHP5 support PHP4 backward compatibility forever? Ok I'm rediculous, forever not, but, until 5.3 or 6? I think once PHP6 comes out we'll find that some PHP4 idiosyncracies currently tolerated by PHP5 will become fatal errors. At which point projects like CodeIgniter will probably cease PHP4 support and instead span their support across PHP5 and 6. I really don't know how CI thinks about evolution, but I'm very curious why don't use the new features that provide good evolution? I think that's partly a question of what one considers a good feature. Just because a feature exists doesn't mean it should necessarily be used. I agree in parts. Things doesn't mean its should necessarlly is very very relative. If we think in this way, like PHP is a simple language (but very powerfull) we doesn't have to use OOP to build one application, for example. We need to think carefully about the life time of the application. Mainly when we are talking about frameworks. Watch the evolution walking aside is very important. Another point, talking about frameworks, extending some feature in some times is necessary. Doing in PHP4 using OOP to do this is extend a real class that works like astract class, but there is no interface class, its would be hard to provide reliability. What can do in PHP5. Altough, I agree with you we don't need to implement all new features, but, we need to be carefull with what features evolved. Again, It's works isn't a good reason. Mainly in this case. It's Works don't seem to me one good reason to not do evolution. Mainly when some concepts are deprecated. I'm don't talking that CI is not good or enough, just, I offer IMHO some interesting questions. I don't know how CI works, just that I also maintain backward compatibility for my framework to PHP4. However, I'm finding now that there's not much point since almost all of my client applications are now running on PHP5. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- Abraços Edgar Ferreira da Silva Engenheiro de Software Campinas - SP (19) 8110-0733 http://edgarfs.com.br - Aprenda PHP, cole códigos, saiba das vagas de empregos: http://www.manjaphp.com.br -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend (or other) Framework...where to start?
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:57 AM, Usamah M. Ali usamah1...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:59 AM, Paul M Foster pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote: If you're going to go with a prebuilt framework, I'd recommend CodeIgniter for your first time out. If the docs look good to you (and they are pretty good), you'll probably do fine with it. It's about the lightest weight platform out there. It doesn't get in your way too much, but gives you the benefits of using a framework. I downloaded CI because of recommendations from this list as well, but was totally shocked when I discovered that its codebase is written in PHP4! I looked up for an alpha version that is written in PHP5 to no avail. I just can't understand why would they still be in PHP4 while Symfony, a framework born after CI, requires PHP5 since version one and takes full advantage of PHP5's advanced OO features! Regards, Usamah -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Yes, I ran into this problem too when I downloaded it and looked. Same thing with cakephp too. There's a php5 based framework at http://kohanaphp.com/ that says it is based off CI. I started looking at it but all the FW classes are top level with no namespace prefix which made me really sad. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend (or other) Framework...where to start?
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 09:57:42AM +0300, Usamah M. Ali wrote: On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:59 AM, Paul M Foster pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote: If you're going to go with a prebuilt framework, I'd recommend CodeIgniter for your first time out. If the docs look good to you (and they are pretty good), you'll probably do fine with it. It's about the lightest weight platform out there. It doesn't get in your way too much, but gives you the benefits of using a framework. I downloaded CI because of recommendations from this list as well, but was totally shocked when I discovered that its codebase is written in PHP4! I looked up for an alpha version that is written in PHP5 to no avail. I just can't understand why would they still be in PHP4 while Symfony, a framework born after CI, requires PHP5 since version one and takes full advantage of PHP5's advanced OO features! It's designed to work with a broad range of PHP installations. If you're running PHP5, it takes advantage of features in PHP5. Look at the code tree, and you'll see two files which alternatively switch in, depending on whether you're working in PHP4 or PHP5. Paul -- Paul M. Foster -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
-Original Message- From: Paul M Foster [mailto:pa...@quillandmouse.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:18 PM To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't. ---8--- I agree and disagree. I agree there's waaay too much herd mentality in the programming field. (Fortunately, Linus Torvalds didn't listen to the academics who insisted that microkernels where THE WAY, or we wouldn't have Linux today.) OO is nifty for some things, but it's certainly not the fountain of reusability it was originally promoted to be. And I also agree about tables versus CSS. I can render a page very precisely with tables that would take me hours to get right with CSS. And I really don't give a crap about what experts say about anything. I find experts to be wrong much of the time. OTOH, I just finished writing about 80K lines of PHP/HTML, all by hand, no OO, no classes, no nothing. Each page in one file, except for a few helper functions in a couple of common files. I wouldn't want to go through that again. I've opted for a framework on rewriting this code, just to cut down on the number of lines of code I have to manually write. But I built my own framework, which doesn't call in 20 files for each page load. Very compact. Probably not suitable for every kind of project, but it works for this. Incidentally, I would differ from the reviewer in the link above only in this respect: He maintains that every line of code adds time. While this is true, I believe it's the number of files which have to be opened which drags down framework numbers the most. When I wrote C code, the CPU would blaze through the actual code, but file opens and reads consumed far more time than in-memory code execution. http://www.giveupandusetables.com 'nuff said. // Todd -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Jan 15, 2009, at 10:19 AM, Boyd, Todd M. tmbo...@ccis.edu wrote: -Original Message- From: Paul M Foster [mailto:pa...@quillandmouse.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:18 PM To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't. ---8--- I agree and disagree. I agree there's waaay too much herd mentality in the programming field. (Fortunately, Linus Torvalds didn't listen to the academics who insisted that microkernels where THE WAY, or we wouldn't have Linux today.) OO is nifty for some things, but it's certainly not the fountain of reusability it was originally promoted to be. And I also agree about tables versus CSS. I can render a page very precisely with tables that would take me hours to get right with CSS. And I really don't give a crap about what experts say about anything. I find experts to be wrong much of the time. OTOH, I just finished writing about 80K lines of PHP/HTML, all by hand, no OO, no classes, no nothing. Each page in one file, except for a few helper functions in a couple of common files. I wouldn't want to go through that again. I've opted for a framework on rewriting this code, just to cut down on the number of lines of code I have to manually write. But I built my own framework, which doesn't call in 20 files for each page load. Very compact. Probably not suitable for every kind of project, but it works for this. Incidentally, I would differ from the reviewer in the link above only in this respect: He maintains that every line of code adds time. While this is true, I believe it's the number of files which have to be opened which drags down framework numbers the most. When I wrote C code, the CPU would blaze through the actual code, but file opens and reads consumed far more time than in-memory code execution. http://www.giveupandusetables.com 'nuff said. // Todd -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Awesome :-) Bastien -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wednesday 14 January 2009 23:39:02 Daevid Vincent wrote: Not to start a Holy War (as these to framework or not to framework debates often turn into), but I personally had a horrible experience with using frameworks. I was forced to use Symfony at my last job and it was so cumbersome and slow to do even the simplest things. The whole MVC thing can be overkill. Plus the learning curve can be quite steep. Then if you want to hire other developers to work with you, you have to train them and let them ramp up on not only the framework but also your core project too! More wasted time. The pages are significantly slower than straight PHP by orders of magnitude: http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 The basic problem with frameworks is they try to be one thing for all people. This carries a lot of baggage with it. There's a lot of crap you end up pulling in that you don't want/need. Plus if you want to deviate at all, you either have to roll your own, or sometimes you simply just can't. They seem attractive with all their plugins and stuff, but honestly, rarely do the plugins do EXACTLY what you want, the way you want. It might be as simple as trying to change the look/feel of a button or something and you'll find out that you can't -- so now you have this website that has this section that doesn't look like the rest of your site. And if you find a bug, you have to try to either fix it yourself and then keep those changes migrated into new updates, or submit it to the developer and hope they implement them (and trust me, you can submit to them and have them rejected for all sorts of lame reasons -- even though the work has been done and you're using it!) I advise against it. Just follow good practices and use thin wrappers and functions. Don't get all OO googlie eyed and try to over-engineer and over-OO the code. OO is great for some things (like a User class) but don't start making some OO page renderer or form builder. Don't fall into the DB Abstraction trap either -- just use a wrapper around your DB calls (see attached), so you can swap out that wrapper if (and you almost never do) you change the DB. Don't be suckered by something like QuickForms -- you WILL run into limitations that you can't get around and are at their mercy. Don't buy the hype that DIV's are the magic bullet and TABLEs are poor design -- Tables are still the best and most ubiquitous way to align things in a browser agnostic way (including mobile phones, etc.) and to layout forms. I've not used Zend myself, so I can't say for certain, but the above tenements I think would still hold true. I guess I would trust the Zend one the most given they actually make PHP, but at this point in time, I would never choose to use a bloated framework. Then again, I write enterprise level and very custom applications (Saas) so maybe this doesn't apply if all you're trying to do is make yet another Blog or Photo-album or personal/corporate website or something generic/basic. I've been coding nearly 20 years and founded several $MM companies. That's my take (or rant depending on how you look at it). Daevid. http://daevid.com Hell, yes, signed to from start to end. After RoR, PHP guys (including Zend) goes nuts. Every one eat his brains to develop RoR like Framework. I wish to see fixed function parameter names, option orders, easy and strong input validation in PHP 6. And they give full effort to generate Zend Framework. Then what? It still harder than Ror... Hell yes, Compete own community. teh best way to spend your resources... Sancar Saran
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 17:34 +0200, Sancar Saran wrote: On Wednesday 14 January 2009 23:39:02 Daevid Vincent wrote: Not to start a Holy War (as these to framework or not to framework debates often turn into), but I personally had a horrible experience with using frameworks. I was forced to use Symfony at my last job and it was so cumbersome and slow to do even the simplest things. The whole MVC thing can be overkill. Plus the learning curve can be quite steep. Then if you want to hire other developers to work with you, you have to train them and let them ramp up on not only the framework but also your core project too! More wasted time. The pages are significantly slower than straight PHP by orders of magnitude: http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 The basic problem with frameworks is they try to be one thing for all people. This carries a lot of baggage with it. There's a lot of crap you end up pulling in that you don't want/need. Plus if you want to deviate at all, you either have to roll your own, or sometimes you simply just can't. They seem attractive with all their plugins and stuff, but honestly, rarely do the plugins do EXACTLY what you want, the way you want. It might be as simple as trying to change the look/feel of a button or something and you'll find out that you can't -- so now you have this website that has this section that doesn't look like the rest of your site. And if you find a bug, you have to try to either fix it yourself and then keep those changes migrated into new updates, or submit it to the developer and hope they implement them (and trust me, you can submit to them and have them rejected for all sorts of lame reasons -- even though the work has been done and you're using it!) I advise against it. Just follow good practices and use thin wrappers and functions. Don't get all OO googlie eyed and try to over-engineer and over-OO the code. OO is great for some things (like a User class) but don't start making some OO page renderer or form builder. Don't fall into the DB Abstraction trap either -- just use a wrapper around your DB calls (see attached), so you can swap out that wrapper if (and you almost never do) you change the DB. Don't be suckered by something like QuickForms -- you WILL run into limitations that you can't get around and are at their mercy. Don't buy the hype that DIV's are the magic bullet and TABLEs are poor design -- Tables are still the best and most ubiquitous way to align things in a browser agnostic way (including mobile phones, etc.) and to layout forms. I've not used Zend myself, so I can't say for certain, but the above tenements I think would still hold true. I guess I would trust the Zend one the most given they actually make PHP, but at this point in time, I would never choose to use a bloated framework. Then again, I write enterprise level and very custom applications (Saas) so maybe this doesn't apply if all you're trying to do is make yet another Blog or Photo-album or personal/corporate website or something generic/basic. I've been coding nearly 20 years and founded several $MM companies. That's my take (or rant depending on how you look at it). Daevid. http://daevid.com Hell, yes, signed to from start to end. After RoR, PHP guys (including Zend) goes nuts. Every one eat his brains to develop RoR like Framework. What are you smoking? I like my framework the way it is. I'm sure others like theirs the way it is. In no way do I try to be like RoR and probably for good reason since I hear mostly bad things about RoR. I wish to see fixed function parameter names Good luck with that... it's been shot down several times on the PHP internals list. , option orders, easy and strong input validation in PHP 6. Isn't the filters stuff available in PHP5 already for doing stronger validation. It's not like input validation is difficult. And they give full effort to generate Zend Framework. Huh? Then what? It still harder than Ror... What is? PHP? What are you talking about? Hell yes, Compete own community. teh best way to spend your resources... Internal competition only makes something better. If all you have are yes men, then the only answer you'll get is yes. Having those who dissent in opinion provides a basis for different views and approaches to problem solving. May survival of the fittest benefit all both from the perspective of getting a better final product and from the perspective of learning from mistakes along the way. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Thursday 15 January 2009 17:45:35 Robert Cummings wrote: Hell, yes, signed to from start to end. After RoR, PHP guys (including Zend) goes nuts. Every one eat his brains to develop RoR like Framework. What are you smoking? I like my framework the way it is. I'm sure others like theirs the way it is. In no way do I try to be like RoR and probably for good reason since I hear mostly bad things about RoR. Naah, I left somoking more than 3 years ago and having problems discussing in English (still no former education). And I'm sorry, My English better than your Turkish. So please be polute about my grammar errors. :) Everyone likes own dog-meat. And, last week I meet a tiny php shop to fix their code against remote file inclusion. Their code was uber mess and one thing make me sad. Their old coder (which he doesn't know anything about current php development trends) do the job wint under 20k phtml code. (most of k was spend for html tables). maybe 5 functions and so. I'm very sure to updating his code with current trends plus some improvement under (excluding the templates) in 20k I can give the answer for 80% of web demands. And if we look someting more TYPO3 / Joomla / Drupal can do the job. For Ruby, Perl, Python, you have have a web focused frame work to get job done in faster. And that php already web focused language. we need faster, more organized, better language, not uber bloated framwork from ZEND. I wish to see fixed function parameter names Good luck with that... it's been shot down several times on the PHP internals list. , option orders, easy and strong input validation in PHP 6. Isn't the filters stuff available in PHP5 already for doing stronger validation. It's not like input validation is difficult. And they give full effort to generate Zend Framework. Huh? Then what? It still harder than Ror... What is? PHP? What are you talking about? I mean, ZEND Framework still harder to handle than RoR. Hell yes, Compete own community. teh best way to spend your resources... Internal competition only makes something better. If all you have are yes men, then the only answer you'll get is yes. Having those who dissent in opinion provides a basis for different views and approaches to problem solving. May survival of the fittest benefit all both from the perspective of getting a better final product and from the perspective of learning from mistakes along the way. Yes of course and that Zend was not M$, they not swim in to dollar filled pools. And wIth zend framework, Zend begin rivalling against CI, Symphony, Solar and other popular framework communuties. (including yours and mine). Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP Regards Sancar
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 19:37 +0200, Sancar Saran wrote: On Thursday 15 January 2009 17:45:35 Robert Cummings wrote: Hell, yes, signed to from start to end. After RoR, PHP guys (including Zend) goes nuts. Every one eat his brains to develop RoR like Framework. What are you smoking? I like my framework the way it is. I'm sure others like theirs the way it is. In no way do I try to be like RoR and probably for good reason since I hear mostly bad things about RoR. Naah, I left somoking more than 3 years ago and having problems discussing in English (still no former education). And I'm sorry, My English better than your Turkish. So please be polute about my grammar errors. :) Everyone likes own dog-meat. And, last week I meet a tiny php shop to fix their code against remote file inclusion. Their code was uber mess and one thing make me sad. Their old coder (which he doesn't know anything about current php development trends) do the job wint under 20k phtml code. (most of k was spend for html tables). maybe 5 functions and so. I'm very sure to updating his code with current trends plus some improvement under (excluding the templates) in 20k I can give the answer for 80% of web demands. And if we look someting more TYPO3 / Joomla / Drupal can do the job. For Ruby, Perl, Python, you have have a web focused frame work to get job done in faster. And that php already web focused language. we need faster, more organized, better language, not uber bloated framwork from ZEND. I wish to see fixed function parameter names Good luck with that... it's been shot down several times on the PHP internals list. , option orders, easy and strong input validation in PHP 6. Isn't the filters stuff available in PHP5 already for doing stronger validation. It's not like input validation is difficult. And they give full effort to generate Zend Framework. Huh? Then what? It still harder than Ror... What is? PHP? What are you talking about? I mean, ZEND Framework still harder to handle than RoR. Hell yes, Compete own community. teh best way to spend your resources... Internal competition only makes something better. If all you have are yes men, then the only answer you'll get is yes. Having those who dissent in opinion provides a basis for different views and approaches to problem solving. May survival of the fittest benefit all both from the perspective of getting a better final product and from the perspective of learning from mistakes along the way. Yes of course and that Zend was not M$, they not swim in to dollar filled pools. And wIth zend framework, Zend begin rivalling against CI, Symphony, Solar and other popular framework communuties. (including yours and mine). Ah, I see what your saying... I thought you were railing on PHP (punny eh?) when you were actually railing on Zend in particular. Thanks for the clarification. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
Daevid Vincent wrote: The pages are significantly slower than straight PHP by orders of magnitude: http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001198.html I know this blog isn't specifically about PHP but he makes a good general point that can be applied to this conversation very well. For those who don't want to read the article it's about the cost of time spent programming vs hardware. Even if a framework will run slower than raw HTML or a simple PHP page on it's own, if that framework saves you a significant amount of time developing, and the server your running the application on isn't as responsive as you like, maybe it would be cheaper just to add another server and load balance the two. A lot of frameworks include stuff exactly for load balancing making your whole application a lot more flexible and able to withstand a lot more growth without you having to write any extra code.
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 13:52 -0500, Sam Stelfox wrote: Daevid Vincent wrote: The pages are significantly slower than straight PHP by orders of magnitude: http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001198.html I know this blog isn't specifically about PHP but he makes a good general point that can be applied to this conversation very well. For those who don't want to read the article it's about the cost of time spent programming vs hardware. Even if a framework will run slower than raw HTML or a simple PHP page on it's own, if that framework saves you a significant amount of time developing, and the server your running the application on isn't as responsive as you like, maybe it would be cheaper just to add another server and load balance the two. A lot of frameworks include stuff exactly for load balancing making your whole application a lot more flexible and able to withstand a lot more growth without you having to write any extra code. That sounds great in theory, but the reality is harsh and disappointing. That was my biggest problem with Symfony -- not raw speed of page serving (although it is slow and you can see/feel it. and we did have 5 servers: load balancer/web1/web2/masterDB/slaveDB) -- but the overhead of creating a page. Learning the framework took significant time. Learning it well enough to be productive in it took even more. There is a difference from reading a book and understanding the concepts vs. sitting down and creating something that you don't have an example for. That takes a lot of research, document reading (and symfony's documentation SUCKED -- maybe I'm just spoiled by php.net), asking questions on the email list, waiting for replies, running into limitations *in* the framework or WORSE yet, BUGS *in* the framework. Then just to do the simplest of things you have to extract it into this MVC architecture and ORM and do you use a partial or some other mechanism. Then you have to pass arrays of parameters and objects around. Then there are NEW reserved words that the framework has. Pages that I could have written (and written very well, clean, maintainable and scalable) in an hour were now taking hours or more because of all the routing, models, views, controllers, yaml, schema, scripts to rebuild/generate, etc that needed to be setup. I don't disagree with the concept of a framework. I think it has an intrinsic value and would love to see them evolve and improve. My problem is with the current state of affairs. The bulk. The bloat. The bugs. The limitations. Ignoring Joe Blow and his blog or photo album or some other stupid who gives a $hit about it website -- the way I see it, there are those that want a framework to save them time to get a site up quickly... a prototype lets say. So great, they're wonderful for that. Symfony does some magic to create the CRUD for admin backend pages automatically even. But now you have a site up and you want to start building upon it -- you're stuck with this cruft and bloated framework forever now. OR you have to re-build it from scratch all over again. The other kinds of people are those who are writing a serious SaaS or other enterprise/significant-money-and-time-involved site. They are going to want all kinds of control and customization and optimization of the code and database. Once you start getting into 100k or 1M+ rows and joins, ORM fails miserably, so then you have to optimize by doing raw SQL -- and once you've done that, you loose the (perceived) benefits of the ORM -- so why bother with that layer in the first place. Just use a hybrid base class (as I posted) and get an Object with all the benefits of SQL too. Ignoring that, so you want some feature. Great! You go hunt and find a plug-in to save you weeks of work -- guess what? It is NEVER going to do EVERYTHING you want it to do. So now what? Do you modify the plugin (and forever merge those changes back with new updates)? Do you try to extend it somehow if even possible? Or do you just write your own? Probably you will write your own -- so again, what did the framework save you? At my last company, we wanted comment sections, blogs, photo albums, voting, ranking and all sorts of other common features. Well, if you didn't have your database in the way they needed it, or your layout the way they had it, or whatever other idiosyncrasy required, it was barely usable and often unusable. Finally once you start using a framework for everything, it seems people forget how to do anything outside of it. At my last company, they had no concept of straight SQL which improved a news section with 100k rows to parse from minutes to seconds. They didn't know about include() which we used to automate the menu system for sub-sections and was impossible to do (the way we wanted to do it) with the framework due to scoping issues. The worst example was this script that had to update various tables (news, videos, etc.). So the
Re: Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
I think I'm going to stick with objects generated by POG, PEAR classes where they can save me time and Smarty templates for display. Glad we had this little fireside chat before I started on my next project with an ambition to use some fancy new framework. You guys saved me what sounds like a LOT of time. Thanks, John Corry
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 04:20:16AM -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 21:17 -0500, Paul M Foster wrote: Incidentally, I would differ from the reviewer in the link above only in this respect: He maintains that every line of code adds time. While this is true, I believe it's the number of files which have to be opened which drags down framework numbers the most. When I wrote C code, the CPU would blaze through the actual code, but file opens and reads consumed far more time than in-memory code execution. Moot point if you're using an accelerator like eAccelerator or APC since these cache the data in memory. Similarly, most operating systems cache file reads also, so it's probably not as expensive without an accelerator as you think either. Perhaps, but since much of the C code I've written is on Linux servers like those used by most of the hosting companies, and since I can't control whether they do or don't cache pages, my personal experience (and simple logic) guides me to believe file manipulation is far more time consuming than simple manipulation of strings, number and arrays. Paul -- Paul M. Foster -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 04:17:51AM -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 21:17 -0500, Paul M Foster wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 01:39:02PM -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote: snip The pages are significantly slower than straight PHP by orders of magnitude: [1]http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 What a great link! I've never seen this kind of comparison before. HTML is 70% faster than straight PHP, and the frameworks (even codeigniter) deliver less than 20% of the performance of straight PHP. It's not a fair comparison. It's like saying here's a bucket of water. I want you to take it across the road using one of the following methods: I wouldn't consider it a truly scientific comparison. The testing method seems a little odd to me. Nonetheless, the point is makes is clear: PHP is 70% (more or less) efficient in rendering pages than straight HTML, and the best frameworks are only about 20% as efficient as straight PHP. We can argue about the exact numbers, but the results make clear that for speed HTML PHP frameworks. (And really, can you logically argue that point?) From this, you don't draw the conclusion to not use frameworks or PHP. From this, you now know one of the trade-offs in using PHP and frameworks. And you get some idea of the magnitude of its impact. (These guys didn't even bother to test HTML with a bunch of Javascript or complex CSS in it. Might PHP have been faster?) Is *coding* faster and more efficient with frameworks? Sure. Does the code execute as fast? No. If execution speed is your priority, then you either scrap the framework, resort to a caching solution (which some of the frameworks already have in place, but which the testers didn't test), or figure something else out (like C?). If execution speed isn't your priority, then you might look instead at a framework. Anyway, the survey is just a tool which lets you know about one of the trade-offs in web design. I doubt any other method of testing would skew the results all that much. Paul -- Paul M. Foster -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
Hi Daevid, Your included db.inc.php file contains what appears to be a very strict injunction against people on this list making use of it. In particular, these lines: #--- # # Confidential - Property of Symcell Corporation # Do not copy or distribute. # Copyright 2005-2008 Symcell Corporation. All rights reserved. # #--- Any chance you can resend this file without that warning included, if you have the authority to remove it? All the best, M is for Murray On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 7:39 AM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: Not to start a Holy War (as these to framework or not to framework debates often turn into), but I personally had a horrible experience with using frameworks. I was forced to use Symfony at my last job and it was so cumbersome and slow to do even the simplest things. The whole MVC thing can be overkill. Plus the learning curve can be quite steep. Then if you want to hire other developers to work with you, you have to train them and let them ramp up on not only the framework but also your core project too! More wasted time. The pages are significantly slower than straight PHP by orders of magnitude: http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 The basic problem with frameworks is they try to be one thing for all people. This carries a lot of baggage with it. There's a lot of crap you end up pulling in that you don't want/need. Plus if you want to deviate at all, you either have to roll your own, or sometimes you simply just can't. They seem attractive with all their plugins and stuff, but honestly, rarely do the plugins do EXACTLY what you want, the way you want. It might be as simple as trying to change the look/feel of a button or something and you'll find out that you can't -- so now you have this website that has this section that doesn't look like the rest of your site. And if you find a bug, you have to try to either fix it yourself and then keep those changes migrated into new updates, or submit it to the developer and hope they implement them (and trust me, you can submit to them and have them rejected for all sorts of lame reasons -- even though the work has been done and you're using it!) I advise against it. Just follow good practices and use thin wrappers and functions. Don't get all OO googlie eyed and try to over-engineer and over-OO the code. OO is great for some things (like a User class) but don't start making some OO page renderer or form builder. Don't fall into the DB Abstraction trap either -- just use a wrapper around your DB calls (see attached), so you can swap out that wrapper if (and you almost never do) you change the DB. Don't be suckered by something like QuickForms -- you WILL run into limitations that you can't get around and are at their mercy. Don't buy the hype that DIV's are the magic bullet and TABLEs are poor design -- Tables are still the best and most ubiquitous way to align things in a browser agnostic way (including mobile phones, etc.) and to layout forms. I've not used Zend myself, so I can't say for certain, but the above tenements I think would still hold true. I guess I would trust the Zend one the most given they actually make PHP, but at this point in time, I would never choose to use a bloated framework. Then again, I write enterprise level and very custom applications (Saas) so maybe this doesn't apply if all you're trying to do is make yet another Blog or Photo-album or personal/corporate website or something generic/basic. I've been coding nearly 20 years and founded several $MM companies. That's my take (or rant depending on how you look at it). Daevid. http://daevid.com On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 20:36 +, jco...@gmail.com wrote: I've been reading about these great new 'frameworks' for PHP development. The most similar experience I have so far is using PEAR/Smarty in application development. I am becoming very interested in adding one (or more) of these frameworks to my work existence. I'm leaning toward the Zend Framework for the following reasons: 1. Zend's commitment to PHP in the enterprise environment 2. I'm studying for Zend PHP certification...so remaining within the same family sort of makes sense. 3. It's widely heralded as a very good 'framework' 4. Integration with my IDE, Zend Studio 5. Great support/userbase/forums/docs I'm getting ready to start a new project that is going to be somewhat of a stretch for me. It'll be probably the most complex project I've done where I'm the only designer/developer and have to do everything myself: from func spec to mockups to wireframes to database design to documentation to code to maintenance...all of it is me. What do you think, should I kill 2 birds with one stone and use the ZF to build this new project? Or would it slow me down to add 'learning the ins and outs of a new way of
Re: [PHP] Zend (or other) Framework...where to start?
WRT Frameworks.. before I rant, I should declare myself as an ex-consultant to Zend. I have used most of the more popular frameworks, and in my current employment am using Zend Framework. All of the frameworks I have used, have had some good features, and some poorly implemented ones. This, I beleive comes from people trying to make the application all things to all people to fit all applications. This will never happen, at some time, you need to code for yourself, which is why many developers develop their own frameworks from the ground up, myself included. Symphony I did not like at all, but it has a nice modular api, which CodeIgnitor I spent nearly a year on a project and eventually came to be familiar with its nuances. The good documentation of CI and examples I found refreshing. Symphony, Cake, CI etc all have a single commong feature, they are not Zend. Not that the Zend Framework is a total peice of crap ... mostly, but seems to be the product of a tortured development process where comprimises have been made by a committee. Although not strictly part of the framework, Zend Form would have to be the biggest waste of time I have come across. Abstracted to the point of un-usability. Much simpler/easier to write a HTML form. A framework is not so much a tool to make your development faster, although this will be the case, it is a tool to make your development constant. This means you can easily, and rapidly deploy applications as you are familiar with the tool. The speed of development comes as you become more familiar with the environment you are developing in. Try any of the frameworks, or write you own, just avoid Zend. Kevin -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Zend Framework...where to start?
I've been reading about these great new 'frameworks' for PHP development. The most similar experience I have so far is using PEAR/Smarty in application development. I am becoming very interested in adding one (or more) of these frameworks to my work existence. I'm leaning toward the Zend Framework for the following reasons: 1. Zend's commitment to PHP in the enterprise environment 2. I'm studying for Zend PHP certification...so remaining within the same family sort of makes sense. 3. It's widely heralded as a very good 'framework' 4. Integration with my IDE, Zend Studio 5. Great support/userbase/forums/docs I'm getting ready to start a new project that is going to be somewhat of a stretch for me. It'll be probably the most complex project I've done where I'm the only designer/developer and have to do everything myself: from func spec to mockups to wireframes to database design to documentation to code to maintenance...all of it is me. What do you think, should I kill 2 birds with one stone and use the ZF to build this new project? Or would it slow me down to add 'learning the ins and outs of a new way of working' to my already long list of tasks and short time to complete them? Zend touts this thing as 'saving time' and 'letting you work more efficiently'. Will the new developer who is learning how to use ZF realize those efficiencies or are they only for the people who are quite experienced with the framework? I'm curious about whether it's practical to begin with a framework by using it on a real, production project. ?? John Corry
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start?
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:36 PM, jco...@gmail.com wrote: I've been reading about these great new 'frameworks' for PHP development. The most similar experience I have so far is using PEAR/Smarty in application development. I am becoming very interested in adding one (or more) of these frameworks to my work existence. I'm leaning toward the Zend Framework for the following reasons: 1. Zend's commitment to PHP in the enterprise environment 2. I'm studying for Zend PHP certification...so remaining within the same family sort of makes sense. 3. It's widely heralded as a very good 'framework' 4. Integration with my IDE, Zend Studio 5. Great support/userbase/forums/docs I'm getting ready to start a new project that is going to be somewhat of a stretch for me. It'll be probably the most complex project I've done where I'm the only designer/developer and have to do everything myself: from func spec to mockups to wireframes to database design to documentation to code to maintenance...all of it is me. What do you think, should I kill 2 birds with one stone and use the ZF to build this new project? Or would it slow me down to add 'learning the ins and outs of a new way of working' to my already long list of tasks and short time to complete them? Zend touts this thing as 'saving time' and 'letting you work more efficiently'. Will the new developer who is learning how to use ZF realize those efficiencies or are they only for the people who are quite experienced with the framework? I'm curious about whether it's practical to begin with a framework by using it on a real, production project. ?? John Corry ZF isn't going to save you any time on a single project. The time savings is over time with multiple projects where everything is organized the same way, code sharing, new developers not having to learn something new each time, etc. It is also one of the hardest to actually use too since it can be customized on any part of it. I'd recommend it though because it does have a good community, lots of eyes on it, frequent releases, docs. The only way to really know if it works though is to use it for real. When I play code at home I'm never going to give myself the hard time about some weird edge case business rule that I have to at work. Using ZF on a project is going to make you have to do that and learn where it works and doesn't work for you. There's a lot more to this discussion though. So keep researching and trying different ones out. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend (or other) Framework...where to start?
Well, bummer. I *seriously* need to divine a way to increase my efficiency both immediately and for the long term as I maintain tomorrow the applications I build today. For the new-to-frameworks, is there a better/easier framework to use that will streamline the development process from the beginning? I've looked at Codeigniter and LOVE the user guide/documentation...the underlying philosophy of that product looks very attractive too. Any others? I'd love to have the time to 'play around' with one or more of these to get an idea of strengths/weaknesses...but due to schedule and commitments, this 'playing around' is going to have to take place in the production, for-hire context. Surely we're all familiar with 'on the job training', right? ; ) John Corry ZF isn't going to save you any time on a single project. The time savings is over time with multiple projects where everything is organized the same way, code sharing, new developers not having to learn something new each time, etc. It is also one of the hardest to actually use too since it can be customized on any part of it. I'd recommend it though because it does have a good community, lots of eyes on it, frequent releases, docs There's a lot more to this discussion though. So keep researching and trying different ones out... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
Not to start a Holy War (as these to framework or not to framework debates often turn into), but I personally had a horrible experience with using frameworks. I was forced to use Symfony at my last job and it was so cumbersome and slow to do even the simplest things. The whole MVC thing can be overkill. Plus the learning curve can be quite steep. Then if you want to hire other developers to work with you, you have to train them and let them ramp up on not only the framework but also your core project too! More wasted time. The pages are significantly slower than straight PHP by orders of magnitude: http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 The basic problem with frameworks is they try to be one thing for all people. This carries a lot of baggage with it. There's a lot of crap you end up pulling in that you don't want/need. Plus if you want to deviate at all, you either have to roll your own, or sometimes you simply just can't. They seem attractive with all their plugins and stuff, but honestly, rarely do the plugins do EXACTLY what you want, the way you want. It might be as simple as trying to change the look/feel of a button or something and you'll find out that you can't -- so now you have this website that has this section that doesn't look like the rest of your site. And if you find a bug, you have to try to either fix it yourself and then keep those changes migrated into new updates, or submit it to the developer and hope they implement them (and trust me, you can submit to them and have them rejected for all sorts of lame reasons -- even though the work has been done and you're using it!) I advise against it. Just follow good practices and use thin wrappers and functions. Don't get all OO googlie eyed and try to over-engineer and over-OO the code. OO is great for some things (like a User class) but don't start making some OO page renderer or form builder. Don't fall into the DB Abstraction trap either -- just use a wrapper around your DB calls (see attached), so you can swap out that wrapper if (and you almost never do) you change the DB. Don't be suckered by something like QuickForms -- you WILL run into limitations that you can't get around and are at their mercy. Don't buy the hype that DIV's are the magic bullet and TABLEs are poor design -- Tables are still the best and most ubiquitous way to align things in a browser agnostic way (including mobile phones, etc.) and to layout forms. I've not used Zend myself, so I can't say for certain, but the above tenements I think would still hold true. I guess I would trust the Zend one the most given they actually make PHP, but at this point in time, I would never choose to use a bloated framework. Then again, I write enterprise level and very custom applications (Saas) so maybe this doesn't apply if all you're trying to do is make yet another Blog or Photo-album or personal/corporate website or something generic/basic. I've been coding nearly 20 years and founded several $MM companies. That's my take (or rant depending on how you look at it). Daevid. http://daevid.com On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 20:36 +, jco...@gmail.com wrote: I've been reading about these great new 'frameworks' for PHP development. The most similar experience I have so far is using PEAR/Smarty in application development. I am becoming very interested in adding one (or more) of these frameworks to my work existence. I'm leaning toward the Zend Framework for the following reasons: 1. Zend's commitment to PHP in the enterprise environment 2. I'm studying for Zend PHP certification...so remaining within the same family sort of makes sense. 3. It's widely heralded as a very good 'framework' 4. Integration with my IDE, Zend Studio 5. Great support/userbase/forums/docs I'm getting ready to start a new project that is going to be somewhat of a stretch for me. It'll be probably the most complex project I've done where I'm the only designer/developer and have to do everything myself: from func spec to mockups to wireframes to database design to documentation to code to maintenance...all of it is me. What do you think, should I kill 2 birds with one stone and use the ZF to build this new project? Or would it slow me down to add 'learning the ins and outs of a new way of working' to my already long list of tasks and short time to complete them? Zend touts this thing as 'saving time' and 'letting you work more efficiently'. Will the new developer who is learning how to use ZF realize those efficiencies or are they only for the people who are quite experienced with the framework? I'm curious about whether it's practical to begin with a framework by using it on a real, production project. ?? John Corry attachment: db.inc.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend (or other) Framework...where to start?
John Corry wrote: For the new-to-frameworks, is there a better/easier framework to use that will streamline the development process from the beginning? I've been using my own I developed from the ground up for the past couple years, but have recently looked at cakePHP and I think it might be good for some new to frameworks. Drupal is awfully popular, but I've only glanced at it and get the impression there's a bit of a steep learning curve. I'd be very interest to hear what others think of both of these. -- == Skip Evans Big Sky Penguin, LLC 503 S Baldwin St, #1 Madison, Wisconsin 53703 608-250-2720 http://bigskypenguin.com Those of you who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand. -- Kurt Vonnegut -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend (or other) Framework...where to start?
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:30 PM, John Corry jco...@gmail.com wrote: Well, bummer. I *seriously* need to divine a way to increase my efficiency both immediately and for the long term as I maintain tomorrow the applications I build today. For the new-to-frameworks, is there a better/easier framework to use that will streamline the development process from the beginning? I've looked at Codeigniter and LOVE the user guide/documentation...the underlying philosophy of that product looks very attractive too. Any others? I'd love to have the time to 'play around' with one or more of these to get an idea of strengths/weaknesses...but due to schedule and commitments, this 'playing around' is going to have to take place in the production, for-hire context. Surely we're all familiar with 'on the job training', right? ; ) John Corry Good luck with that. ;) If you aren't willing to invest the effort you're not going to reap the rewards. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: http://daevid.com It appears your browser does not support some of the advanced features this site requires. That is pretty enteprisey! ;D -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 13:39 -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote: Not to start a Holy War (as these to framework or not to framework debates often turn into), but I personally had a horrible experience with using frameworks. I was forced to use Symfony at my last job and it was so cumbersome and slow to do even the simplest things. The whole MVC thing can be overkill. Plus the learning curve can be quite steep. Then if you want to hire other developers to work with you, you have to train them and let them ramp up on not only the framework but also your core project too! More wasted time. The pages are significantly slower than straight PHP by orders of magnitude: http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 The basic problem with frameworks is they try to be one thing for all people. This carries a lot of baggage with it. There's a lot of crap you end up pulling in that you don't want/need. Plus if you want to deviate at all, you either have to roll your own, or sometimes you simply just can't. They seem attractive with all their plugins and stuff, but honestly, rarely do the plugins do EXACTLY what you want, the way you want. It might be as simple as trying to change the look/feel of a button or something and you'll find out that you can't -- so now you have this website that has this section that doesn't look like the rest of your site. And if you find a bug, you have to try to either fix it yourself and then keep those changes migrated into new updates, or submit it to the developer and hope they implement them (and trust me, you can submit to them and have them rejected for all sorts of lame reasons -- even though the work has been done and you're using it!) I advise against it. Just follow good practices and use thin wrappers and functions. Don't get all OO googlie eyed and try to over-engineer and over-OO the code. OO is great for some things (like a User class) but don't start making some OO page renderer or form builder. Don't fall into the DB Abstraction trap either -- just use a wrapper around your DB calls (see attached), so you can swap out that wrapper if (and you almost never do) you change the DB. Don't be suckered by something like QuickForms -- you WILL run into limitations that you can't get around and are at their mercy. Don't buy the hype that DIV's are the magic bullet and TABLEs are poor design -- Tables are still the best and most ubiquitous way to align things in a browser agnostic way (including mobile phones, etc.) and to layout forms. I've not used Zend myself, so I can't say for certain, but the above tenements I think would still hold true. I guess I would trust the Zend one the most given they actually make PHP, but at this point in time, I would never choose to use a bloated framework. Then again, I write enterprise level and very custom applications (Saas) so maybe this doesn't apply if all you're trying to do is make yet another Blog or Photo-album or personal/corporate website or something generic/basic. I've been coding nearly 20 years and founded several $MM companies. That's my take (or rant depending on how you look at it). So... to summarize... you've had a bad experience with one framework and decided to paint the rest with the colour of your experience. Seems a bit obtuse. Cheers, Rob. Ps. I'm not in any way recommending my own, I've let the documentation for that lag, so this is about your opinion of frameworks in general from one experience, and not anything to do with me proferring my own :) -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 13:39 -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote: Not to start a Holy War (as these to framework or not to framework debates often turn into), but I personally had a horrible experience with using frameworks. I was forced to use Symfony at my last job and it was so cumbersome and slow to do even the simplest things. The whole MVC thing can be overkill. Plus the learning curve can be quite steep. Then if you want to hire other developers to work with you, you have to train them and let them ramp up on not only the framework but also your core project too! More wasted time. The pages are significantly slower than straight PHP by orders of magnitude: http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 The basic problem with frameworks is they try to be one thing for all people. This carries a lot of baggage with it. There's a lot of crap you end up pulling in that you don't want/need. Plus if you want to deviate at all, you either have to roll your own, or sometimes you simply just can't. They seem attractive with all their plugins and stuff, but honestly, rarely do the plugins do EXACTLY what you want, the way you want. It might be as simple as trying to change the look/feel of a button or something and you'll find out that you can't -- so now you have this website that has this section that doesn't look like the rest of your site. And if you find a bug, you have to try to either fix it yourself and then keep those changes migrated into new updates, or submit it to the developer and hope they implement them (and trust me, you can submit to them and have them rejected for all sorts of lame reasons -- even though the work has been done and you're using it!) I advise against it. Just follow good practices and use thin wrappers and functions. Don't get all OO googlie eyed and try to over-engineer and over-OO the code. OO is great for some things (like a User class) but don't start making some OO page renderer or form builder. Don't fall into the DB Abstraction trap either -- just use a wrapper around your DB calls (see attached), so you can swap out that wrapper if (and you almost never do) you change the DB. Don't be suckered by something like QuickForms -- you WILL run into limitations that you can't get around and are at their mercy. Don't buy the hype that DIV's are the magic bullet and TABLEs are poor design -- Tables are still the best and most ubiquitous way to align things in a browser agnostic way (including mobile phones, etc.) and to layout forms. I've not used Zend myself, so I can't say for certain, but the above tenements I think would still hold true. I guess I would trust the Zend one the most given they actually make PHP, but at this point in time, I would never choose to use a bloated framework. Then again, I write enterprise level and very custom applications (Saas) so maybe this doesn't apply if all you're trying to do is make yet another Blog or Photo-album or personal/corporate website or something generic/basic. I've been coding nearly 20 years and founded several $MM companies. That's my take (or rant depending on how you look at it). Daevid. http://daevid.com On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 20:36 +, jco...@gmail.com wrote: I've been reading about these great new 'frameworks' for PHP development. The most similar experience I have so far is using PEAR/Smarty in application development. I am becoming very interested in adding one (or more) of these frameworks to my work existence. I'm leaning toward the Zend Framework for the following reasons: 1. Zend's commitment to PHP in the enterprise environment 2. I'm studying for Zend PHP certification...so remaining within the same family sort of makes sense. 3. It's widely heralded as a very good 'framework' 4. Integration with my IDE, Zend Studio 5. Great support/userbase/forums/docs I'm getting ready to start a new project that is going to be somewhat of a stretch for me. It'll be probably the most complex project I've done where I'm the only designer/developer and have to do everything myself: from func spec to mockups to wireframes to database design to documentation to code to maintenance...all of it is me. What do you think, should I kill 2 birds with one stone and use the ZF to build this new project? Or would it slow me down to add 'learning the ins and outs of a new way of working' to my already long list of tasks and short time to complete them? Zend touts this thing as 'saving time' and 'letting you work more efficiently'. Will the new developer who is learning how to use ZF realize those efficiencies or are they only for the people who are quite experienced with the framework? I'm curious about whether it's practical to begin with a framework by using it on a real, production project. ?? John Corry -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe,
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 16:50 -0500, Eric Butera wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: http://daevid.com It appears your browser does not support some of the advanced features this site requires. That is pretty enteprisey! ;D I got the same message... 2001 called-- they'd like they're web technology back. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 17:01 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 16:50 -0500, Eric Butera wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: http://daevid.com It appears your browser does not support some of the advanced features this site requires. That is pretty enteprisey! ;D I got the same message... 2001 called-- they'd like they're web technology back. Hmmm.. so I opened it up in Firefox and there's this little window just like one I programmed for IE/Firefox/Opera 4 years ago. Not sure why Opera isn't supported, or any other browser with JavaScript and CSS. Reall, if the browser doesn't support the window thingy, it should just degrade to a normal content box. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 17:03 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 17:01 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 16:50 -0500, Eric Butera wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: http://daevid.com It appears your browser does not support some of the advanced features this site requires. That is pretty enteprisey! ;D I got the same message... 2001 called-- they'd like they're web technology back. Hmmm.. so I opened it up in Firefox and there's this little window just like one I programmed for IE/Firefox/Opera 4 years ago. Not sure why Opera isn't supported, or any other browser with JavaScript and CSS. Reall, if the browser doesn't support the window thingy, it should just degrade to a normal content box. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP Spoofing the user agent string in opera doesn't fix it either! Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Robert Cummings rob...@interjinn.com wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 17:01 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 16:50 -0500, Eric Butera wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: http://daevid.com It appears your browser does not support some of the advanced features this site requires. That is pretty enteprisey! ;D I got the same message... 2001 called-- they'd like they're web technology back. Hmmm.. so I opened it up in Firefox and there's this little window just like one I programmed for IE/Firefox/Opera 4 years ago. Not sure why Opera isn't supported, or any other browser with JavaScript and CSS. Reall, if the browser doesn't support the window thingy, it should just degrade to a normal content box. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP I'm using Safari. :D -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Eric Butera eric.but...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Robert Cummings rob...@interjinn.com wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 17:01 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 16:50 -0500, Eric Butera wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: http://daevid.com It appears your browser does not support some of the advanced features this site requires. That is pretty enteprisey! ;D I got the same message... 2001 called-- they'd like they're web technology back. Hmmm.. so I opened it up in Firefox and there's this little window just like one I programmed for IE/Firefox/Opera 4 years ago. Not sure why Opera isn't supported, or any other browser with JavaScript and CSS. Reall, if the browser doesn't support the window thingy, it should just degrade to a normal content box. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP I'm using Safari. :D -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php His website made firefox crash! =[! -- Kyle Terry | www.kyleterry.com
Re: [PHP] Zend (or other) Framework...where to start?
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 04:30:59PM -0500, John Corry wrote: Well, bummer. I *seriously* need to divine a way to increase my efficiency both immediately and for the long term as I maintain tomorrow the applications I build today. For the new-to-frameworks, is there a better/easier framework to use that will streamline the development process from the beginning? I've looked at Codeigniter and LOVE the user guide/documentation...the underlying philosophy of that product looks very attractive too. Any others? If you're going to go with a prebuilt framework, I'd recommend CodeIgniter for your first time out. If the docs look good to you (and they are pretty good), you'll probably do fine with it. It's about the lightest weight platform out there. It doesn't get in your way too much, but gives you the benefits of using a framework. My beef with frameworks like this is that they have too much cruft. I checked one time and codeigniter (again, one of the *lightest* frameworks) open about 15 files before a byte gets written to the screen. There is a lot of stuff in there you don't need (benchmarking code, etc.). I'd hack that stuff out if I were using it for real. One of the things you'll have to get used to is the MVC way of doing things. When you first start writing PHP, you probably don't do things this way, but when you start using frameworks, you've got to starting thinking in terms of what the view will do, versus what the controller, versus what the model will do. It's just a change of viewpoint you have to get used to. In any case, I've used CodeIgniter and liked it. I just didn't like all the cruft in it. And their license is not a straight GPL-like license-- it requires attribution even on derivative projects and requires clear notice of any changes you make to their code. But for a framework, it's pretty good. Paul -- Paul M. Foster -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
If anything this strengthens my point... First of all, that is my PERSONAL site (notice it is my NAME), so it is NOT enterprise or SaaS. Second it uses the www.winlike.net Javascript FRAMEWORK (which I heavily manipulated in PHP to make the menu dynamic, adding a tertiary menu level and various other stuff). I had to reverse engineer everything and it doesn't work in Safari, but I'm pretty sure it's because of a JS check and not actual functionality of the browser. It will work in FF or IE. So I can either try to figure out where in their GERMAN code which has been obfuscated, the check for browser is and fix it, then modify changes in future versions, or i can hope they fix it and do an upgrade. Either way, it sucks. Roll your own -- then you have full control and also know exactly how something works. On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 17:01 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 16:50 -0500, Eric Butera wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: http://daevid.com It appears your browser does not support some of the advanced features this site requires. That is pretty enteprisey! ;D I got the same message... 2001 called-- they'd like they're web technology back.
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 14:28 -0800, Kyle Terry wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Eric Butera eric.but...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Robert Cummings rob...@interjinn.com wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 17:01 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 16:50 -0500, Eric Butera wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: http://daevid.com It appears your browser does not support some of the advanced features this site requires. That is pretty enteprisey! ;D I got the same message... 2001 called-- they'd like they're web technology back. Hmmm.. so I opened it up in Firefox and there's this little window just like one I programmed for IE/Firefox/Opera 4 years ago. Not sure why Opera isn't supported, or any other browser with JavaScript and CSS. Reall, if the browser doesn't support the window thingy, it should just degrade to a normal content box. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP I'm using Safari. :D -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php His website made firefox crash! =[! Um. I am using FF on Ubuntu right now at work, and it works just fine. I develop at home on XP and IE6 and IE7 and it also works. I guarantee you that crash was not related to my site. All of you are spending way too much time on something that is besides the point. My personal site has NOTHING to do with Symfony/Zend/Cake/etc. frameworks per se. The reason you can't load it in safari is a Javascript check and not PHP -- again off topic from this conversation. It doesn't degrade nicely b/c I never bothered to implement the other part of the Winlike kit which will degrade (as you can see on their site http://www.winlike.net as I honestly don't really care about Safari users (like 7% of the market) to be honest. It's my own personal site and if a Mac person can't use FF to view it, it's not sweat off either of our backs.) http://www.macobserver.com/article/2008/07/01.9.shtml Can we please get back on topic? If you really want to see my credentials, then go here: http://resume.daevid.com or go to my personal site in Firefox or IE.
Re: [PHP] Zend (or other) Framework...where to start?
On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 17:59 -0500, Paul M Foster wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 04:30:59PM -0500, John Corry wrote: Well, bummer. I *seriously* need to divine a way to increase my efficiency both immediately and for the long term as I maintain tomorrow the applications I build today. For the new-to-frameworks, is there a better/easier framework to use that will streamline the development process from the beginning? I've looked at Codeigniter and LOVE the user guide/documentation...the underlying philosophy of that product looks very attractive too. Any others? If you're going to go with a prebuilt framework, I'd recommend CodeIgniter for your first time out. If the docs look good to you (and they are pretty good), you'll probably do fine with it. It's about the lightest weight platform out there. It doesn't get in your way too much, but gives you the benefits of using a framework. My beef with frameworks like this is that they have too much cruft. I checked one time and codeigniter (again, one of the *lightest* frameworks) open about 15 files before a byte gets written to the screen. There is a lot of stuff in there you don't need (benchmarking code, etc.). I'd hack that stuff out if I were using it for real. One of the things you'll have to get used to is the MVC way of doing things. When you first start writing PHP, you probably don't do things this way, but when you start using frameworks, you've got to starting thinking in terms of what the view will do, versus what the controller, versus what the model will do. It's just a change of viewpoint you have to get used to. In any case, I've used CodeIgniter and liked it. I just didn't like all the cruft in it. And their license is not a straight GPL-like license-- it requires attribution even on derivative projects and requires clear notice of any changes you make to their code. But for a framework, it's pretty good. Paul -- Paul M. Foster OMG, and don't get me started on ORM. What a bloat that is. The amount of query overhead is rediculous. All these stupid objects for even the simplest of 'glue tables'. Straight SQL, optimized for your query and the data you need is significantly faster. But if you try to use that in a framework, you have other drama to deal with. Here is the base.class.php I wrote that gives the best of all worlds IMHO... attachment: base.class.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:47 -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 14:28 -0800, Kyle Terry wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Eric Butera eric.but...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Robert Cummings rob...@interjinn.com wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 17:01 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 16:50 -0500, Eric Butera wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: http://daevid.com It appears your browser does not support some of the advanced features this site requires. That is pretty enteprisey! ;D I got the same message... 2001 called-- they'd like they're web technology back. Hmmm.. so I opened it up in Firefox and there's this little window just like one I programmed for IE/Firefox/Opera 4 years ago. Not sure why Opera isn't supported, or any other browser with JavaScript and CSS. Reall, if the browser doesn't support the window thingy, it should just degrade to a normal content box. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP I'm using Safari. :D -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php His website made firefox crash! =[! Um. I am using FF on Ubuntu right now at work, and it works just fine. I develop at home on XP and IE6 and IE7 and it also works. I guarantee you that crash was not related to my site. All of you are spending way too much time on something that is besides the point. My personal site has NOTHING to do with Symfony/Zend/Cake/etc. frameworks per se. The reason you can't load it in safari is a Javascript check and not PHP -- again off topic from this conversation. It doesn't degrade nicely b/c I never bothered to implement the other part of the Winlike kit which will degrade (as you can see on their site http://www.winlike.net as I honestly don't really care about Safari users (like 7% of the market) to be honest. It's my own personal site and if a Mac person can't use FF to view it, it's not sweat off either of our backs.) http://www.macobserver.com/article/2008/07/01.9.shtml Can we please get back on topic? If you really want to see my credentials, then go here: http://resume.daevid.com or go to my personal site in Firefox or IE. Lol, on your resumé page, the popup says you're not a Java man, but then the actual resumé says you are... :p Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Ashley Sheridan a...@ashleysheridan.co.ukwrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:47 -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 14:28 -0800, Kyle Terry wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Eric Butera eric.but...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Robert Cummings rob...@interjinn.com wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 17:01 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 16:50 -0500, Eric Butera wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: http://daevid.com It appears your browser does not support some of the advanced features this site requires. That is pretty enteprisey! ;D I got the same message... 2001 called-- they'd like they're web technology back. Hmmm.. so I opened it up in Firefox and there's this little window just like one I programmed for IE/Firefox/Opera 4 years ago. Not sure why Opera isn't supported, or any other browser with JavaScript and CSS. Reall, if the browser doesn't support the window thingy, it should just degrade to a normal content box. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP I'm using Safari. :D -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php His website made firefox crash! =[! Um. I am using FF on Ubuntu right now at work, and it works just fine. I develop at home on XP and IE6 and IE7 and it also works. I guarantee you that crash was not related to my site. All of you are spending way too much time on something that is besides the point. My personal site has NOTHING to do with Symfony/Zend/Cake/etc. frameworks per se. The reason you can't load it in safari is a Javascript check and not PHP -- again off topic from this conversation. It doesn't degrade nicely b/c I never bothered to implement the other part of the Winlike kit which will degrade (as you can see on their site http://www.winlike.net as I honestly don't really care about Safari users (like 7% of the market) to be honest. It's my own personal site and if a Mac person can't use FF to view it, it's not sweat off either of our backs.) http://www.macobserver.com/article/2008/07/01.9.shtml Can we please get back on topic? If you really want to see my credentials, then go here: http://resume.daevid.com or go to my personal site in Firefox or IE. Lol, on your resumé page, the popup says you're not a Java man, but then the actual resumé says you are... :p Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php AND you worked for WildTangent. Enough said. Haha. -- Kyle Terry | www.kyleterry.com
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 6:47 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 14:28 -0800, Kyle Terry wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Eric Butera eric.but...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Robert Cummings rob...@interjinn.com wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 17:01 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 16:50 -0500, Eric Butera wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: http://daevid.com It appears your browser does not support some of the advanced features this site requires. That is pretty enteprisey! ;D I got the same message... 2001 called-- they'd like they're web technology back. Hmmm.. so I opened it up in Firefox and there's this little window just like one I programmed for IE/Firefox/Opera 4 years ago. Not sure why Opera isn't supported, or any other browser with JavaScript and CSS. Reall, if the browser doesn't support the window thingy, it should just degrade to a normal content box. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP I'm using Safari. :D -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php His website made firefox crash! =[! Um. I am using FF on Ubuntu right now at work, and it works just fine. I develop at home on XP and IE6 and IE7 and it also works. I guarantee you that crash was not related to my site. All of you are spending way too much time on something that is besides the point. My personal site has NOTHING to do with Symfony/Zend/Cake/etc. frameworks per se. The reason you can't load it in safari is a Javascript check and not PHP -- again off topic from this conversation. It doesn't degrade nicely b/c I never bothered to implement the other part of the Winlike kit which will degrade (as you can see on their site http://www.winlike.net as I honestly don't really care about Safari users (like 7% of the market) to be honest. It's my own personal site and if a Mac person can't use FF to view it, it's not sweat off either of our backs.) http://www.macobserver.com/article/2008/07/01.9.shtml Can we please get back on topic? If you really want to see my credentials, then go here: http://resume.daevid.com or go to my personal site in Firefox or IE. Oh comon I was just playing. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Eric Butera eric.but...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 6:47 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 14:28 -0800, Kyle Terry wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Eric Butera eric.but...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Robert Cummings rob...@interjinn.com wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 17:01 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 16:50 -0500, Eric Butera wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: http://daevid.com It appears your browser does not support some of the advanced features this site requires. That is pretty enteprisey! ;D I got the same message... 2001 called-- they'd like they're web technology back. Hmmm.. so I opened it up in Firefox and there's this little window just like one I programmed for IE/Firefox/Opera 4 years ago. Not sure why Opera isn't supported, or any other browser with JavaScript and CSS. Reall, if the browser doesn't support the window thingy, it should just degrade to a normal content box. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP I'm using Safari. :D -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php His website made firefox crash! =[! Um. I am using FF on Ubuntu right now at work, and it works just fine. I develop at home on XP and IE6 and IE7 and it also works. I guarantee you that crash was not related to my site. All of you are spending way too much time on something that is besides the point. My personal site has NOTHING to do with Symfony/Zend/Cake/etc. frameworks per se. The reason you can't load it in safari is a Javascript check and not PHP -- again off topic from this conversation. It doesn't degrade nicely b/c I never bothered to implement the other part of the Winlike kit which will degrade (as you can see on their site http://www.winlike.net as I honestly don't really care about Safari users (like 7% of the market) to be honest. It's my own personal site and if a Mac person can't use FF to view it, it's not sweat off either of our backs.) http://www.macobserver.com/article/2008/07/01.9.shtml Can we please get back on topic? If you really want to see my credentials, then go here: http://resume.daevid.com or go to my personal site in Firefox or IE. Oh comon I was just playing. I'm not sure the rest of the class is now, though. :) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
Lol, on your resumé page, the popup says you're not a Java man, but then the actual resumé says you are... :p No. I wrote Java for 3.5 years at WildTangent, a company I founded as employee #2 back in 1998, and left once I felt it was starting to become sketchy and we had grown to over 250 employees. That doesn't make me a Java man. The popup is correct. I have no desire to code in Java or C# or Perl or any other language but LAMP (well, maybe Ruby would be acceptable). I get a recruiter a day contacting me in spite of that message, but it does help to weed out the rest of them. Knowing a language or previously coding in it doesn't mean you want to continue to use it forever. AND you worked for WildTangent. Enough said. Haha. When we started WildTangent, we were the first company to do 3D graphics in a web page. We effectively put microsoft's Chrome out of business and we did amazing things. You could write full blown games using basic Javascript or Java IN a web page. You didn't need to know complex math or collision detection algorithms or trig or calc or anything. The average programmer could create games or other graphics (3D pie-charts, etc) easily. Now they're a less than average game company that doesn't even use the WebDriver and has a stigma of adware. I was proud of what I accomplished at WildTangent, despite what it has degraded into now (which I left in 10/2001, so had nothing to do with that debacle). *sigh* It's unfortunate you guys can't see past some superficial stuff and have an intelligent dialog about frameworks and help the OP with his question. Instead this has turned into an attack on me -- one of the few people who posted opinions and helpful insight for him to make an informed decision. Thanks to those who did agree with me, and even those who disagree'd politely. d.
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: Lol, on your resumé page, the popup says you're not a Java man, but then the actual resumé says you are... :p No. I wrote Java for 3.5 years at WildTangent, a company I founded as employee #2 back in 1998, and left once I felt it was starting to become sketchy and we had grown to over 250 employees. That doesn't make me a Java man. The popup is correct. I have no desire to code in Java or C# or Perl or any What is your gripe on perl? That language is awesome. other language but LAMP (well, maybe Ruby would be acceptable). I get a recruiter a day contacting me in spite of that message, but it does help to weed out the rest of them. Knowing a language or previously coding in it doesn't mean you want to continue to use it forever. AND you worked for WildTangent. Enough said. Haha. When we started WildTangent, we were the first company to do 3D graphics in a web page. We effectively put microsoft's Chrome out of business and we did amazing things. You could write full blown games using basic Javascript or Java IN a web page. You didn't need to know complex math or collision detection algorithms or trig or calc or anything. The average programmer could create games or other graphics (3D pie-charts, etc) easily. Now they're a less than average game company that doesn't even use the WebDriver and has a stigma of adware. I was proud of what I accomplished at WildTangent, despite what it has degraded into now (which I left in 10/2001, so had nothing to do with that debacle). *sigh* It's unfortunate you guys can't see past some superficial stuff and have an intelligent dialog about frameworks and help the OP with his question. Instead this has turned into an attack on me -- one of the few people who posted opinions and helpful insight for him to make an informed decision. Thanks to those who did agree with me, and even those who disagree'd politely. d. -- Kyle Terry | www.kyleterry.com
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 01:39:02PM -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote: Not to start a Holy War (as these to framework or not to framework debates often turn into), but I personally had a horrible experience with using frameworks. I was forced to use Symfony at my last job and it was so cumbersome and slow to do even the simplest things. The whole MVC thing can be overkill. Plus the learning curve can be quite steep. Then if you want to hire other developers to work with you, you have to train them and let them ramp up on not only the framework but also your core project too! More wasted time. The pages are significantly slower than straight PHP by orders of magnitude: [1]http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 What a great link! I've never seen this kind of comparison before. HTML is 70% faster than straight PHP, and the frameworks (even codeigniter) deliver less than 20% of the performance of straight PHP. The basic problem with frameworks is they try to be one thing for all people. This carries a lot of baggage with it. There's a lot of crap you end up pulling in that you don't want/need. Plus if you want to deviate at all, you either have to roll your own, or sometimes you simply just can't. They seem attractive with all their plugins and stuff, but honestly, rarely do the plugins do EXACTLY what you want, the way you want. It might be as simple as trying to change the look/feel of a button or something and you'll find out that you can't -- so now you have this website that has this section that doesn't look like the rest of your site. And if you find a bug, you have to try to either fix it yourself and then keep those changes migrated into new updates, or submit it to the developer and hope they implement them (and trust me, you can submit to them and have them rejected for all sorts of lame reasons -- even though the work has been done and you're using it!) I advise against it. Just follow good practices and use thin wrappers and functions. Don't get all OO googlie eyed and try to over-engineer and over-OO the code. OO is great for some things (like a User class) but don't start making some OO page renderer or form builder. Don't fall into the DB Abstraction trap either -- just use a wrapper around your DB calls (see attached), so you can swap out that wrapper if (and you almost never do) you change the DB. Don't be suckered by something like QuickForms -- you WILL run into limitations that you can't get around and are at their mercy. Don't buy the hype that DIV's are the magic bullet and TABLEs are poor design -- Tables are still the best and most ubiquitous way to align things in a browser agnostic way (including mobile phones, etc.) and to layout forms. I agree and disagree. I agree there's waaay too much herd mentality in the programming field. (Fortunately, Linus Torvalds didn't listen to the academics who insisted that microkernels where THE WAY, or we wouldn't have Linux today.) OO is nifty for some things, but it's certainly not the fountain of reusability it was originally promoted to be. And I also agree about tables versus CSS. I can render a page very precisely with tables that would take me hours to get right with CSS. And I really don't give a crap about what experts say about anything. I find experts to be wrong much of the time. OTOH, I just finished writing about 80K lines of PHP/HTML, all by hand, no OO, no classes, no nothing. Each page in one file, except for a few helper functions in a couple of common files. I wouldn't want to go through that again. I've opted for a framework on rewriting this code, just to cut down on the number of lines of code I have to manually write. But I built my own framework, which doesn't call in 20 files for each page load. Very compact. Probably not suitable for every kind of project, but it works for this. Incidentally, I would differ from the reviewer in the link above only in this respect: He maintains that every line of code adds time. While this is true, I believe it's the number of files which have to be opened which drags down framework numbers the most. When I wrote C code, the CPU would blaze through the actual code, but file opens and reads consumed far more time than in-memory code execution. Paul -- Paul M. Foster -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 6:17 PM, Paul M Foster pa...@quillandmouse.comwrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 01:39:02PM -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote: Not to start a Holy War (as these to framework or not to framework debates often turn into), but I personally had a horrible experience with using frameworks. I was forced to use Symfony at my last job and it was so cumbersome and slow to do even the simplest things. The whole MVC thing can be overkill. Plus the learning curve can be quite steep. Then if you want to hire other developers to work with you, you have to train them and let them ramp up on not only the framework but also your core project too! More wasted time. The pages are significantly slower than straight PHP by orders of magnitude: [1]http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 What a great link! I've never seen this kind of comparison before. HTML is 70% faster than straight PHP, and the frameworks (even codeigniter) deliver less than 20% of the performance of straight PHP. The basic problem with frameworks is they try to be one thing for all people. This carries a lot of baggage with it. There's a lot of crap you end up pulling in that you don't want/need. Plus if you want to deviate at all, you either have to roll your own, or sometimes you simply just can't. They seem attractive with all their plugins and stuff, but honestly, rarely do the plugins do EXACTLY what you want, the way you want. It might be as simple as trying to change the look/feel of a button or something and you'll find out that you can't -- so now you have this website that has this section that doesn't look like the rest of your site. And if you find a bug, you have to try to either fix it yourself and then keep those changes migrated into new updates, or submit it to the developer and hope they implement them (and trust me, you can submit to them and have them rejected for all sorts of lame reasons -- even though the work has been done and you're using it!) I advise against it. Just follow good practices and use thin wrappers and functions. Don't get all OO googlie eyed and try to over-engineer and over-OO the code. OO is great for some things (like a User class) but don't start making some OO page renderer or form builder. Don't fall into the DB Abstraction trap either -- just use a wrapper around your DB calls (see attached), so you can swap out that wrapper if (and you almost never do) you change the DB. Don't be suckered by something like QuickForms -- you WILL run into limitations that you can't get around and are at their mercy. Don't buy the hype that DIV's are the magic bullet and TABLEs are poor design -- Tables are still the best and most ubiquitous way to align things in a browser agnostic way (including mobile phones, etc.) and to layout forms. I agree and disagree. I agree there's waaay too much herd mentality in the programming field. (Fortunately, Linus Torvalds didn't listen to the academics who insisted that microkernels where THE WAY, or we wouldn't have Linux today.) OO is nifty for some things, but it's certainly not the fountain of reusability it was originally promoted to be. And I also agree about tables versus CSS. I can render a page very precisely with tables that would take me hours to get right with CSS. And I really don't give a crap about what experts say about anything. I find experts to be wrong much of the time. OTOH, I just finished writing about 80K lines of PHP/HTML, all by hand, no OO, no classes, no nothing. Each page in one file, except for a few helper functions in a couple of common files. I wouldn't want to go through that again. I've opted for a framework on rewriting this code, just to cut down on the number of lines of code I have to manually write. But I built my own framework, which doesn't call in 20 files for each page load. Very compact. Probably not suitable for every kind of project, but it works for this. Incidentally, I would differ from the reviewer in the link above only in this respect: He maintains that every line of code adds time. While this is true, I believe it's the number of files which have to be opened which drags down framework numbers the most. When I wrote C code, the CPU would blaze through the actual code, but file opens and reads consumed far more time than in-memory code execution. Paul -- Paul M. Foster -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php I agree heavily on the file opening part. I hate having to look through a stack trace of 20 or 30 just to track down why an exception was thrown. We are working on moving our entire framework into less files and more of a core set of files that handles a lot of tasks. -- Kyle Terry | www.kyleterry.com
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
For what it's worth, you are on my good guys list. Coming. From a Dba background I am in the camp of everything is a trade off. Ease of use for speed, functionality for complexity and so on. My two cents: zend has an advantage because you can use the bits and pieces without the need to have the whole in play. Codeigniter is nice because it's lighter weight means it is one of the fastest of the frameworks. Personally some of the larger frameworks with the orm layer I see as useful for wireframing or some quick samples for a prototype as they generate the basics of the interaction. Bastien Sent from my iPod On Jan 14, 2009, at 8:17 PM, Daevid Vincent dae...@daevid.com wrote: Lol, on your resumé page, the popup says you're not a Java man, but then the actual resumé says you are... :p No. I wrote Java for 3.5 years at WildTangent, a company I founded as employee #2 back in 1998, and left once I felt it was starting to become sketchy and we had grown to over 250 employees. That doesn't make me a Java man. The popup is correct. I have no desire to code in Java or C# or Perl or any other language but LAMP (well, maybe Ruby would be acceptable). I get a recruiter a day contacting me in spite of that message, but it does help to weed out the rest of them. Knowing a language or previously coding in it doesn't mean you want to continue to use it forever. AND you worked for WildTangent. Enough said. Haha. When we started WildTangent, we were the first company to do 3D graphics in a web page. We effectively put microsoft's Chrome out of business and we did amazing things. You could write full blown games using basic Javascript or Java IN a web page. You didn't need to know complex math or collision detection algorithms or trig or calc or anything. The average programmer could create games or other graphics (3D pie- charts, etc) easily. Now they're a less than average game company that doesn't even use the WebDriver and has a stigma of adware. I was proud of what I accomplished at WildTangent, despite what it has degraded into now (which I left in 10/2001, so had nothing to do with that debacle). *sigh* It's unfortunate you guys can't see past some superficial stuff and have an intelligent dialog about frameworks and help the OP with his question. Instead this has turned into an attack on me -- one of the few people who posted opinions and helpful insight for him to make an informed decision. Thanks to those who did agree with me, and even those who disagree'd politely. d. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Framework...where to start? -- don't.
Core files are what my plans include too. Bastien Sent from my iPod On Jan 14, 2009, at 9:26 PM, Kyle Terry k...@kyleterry.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 6:17 PM, Paul M Foster pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 01:39:02PM -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote: Not to start a Holy War (as these to framework or not to framework debates often turn into), but I personally had a horrible experience with using frameworks. I was forced to use Symfony at my last job and it was so cumbersome and slow to do even the simplest things. The whole MVC thing can be overkill. Plus the learning curve can be quite steep. Then if you want to hire other developers to work with you, you have to train them and let them ramp up on not only the framework but also your core project too! More wasted time. The pages are significantly slower than straight PHP by orders of magnitude: [1]http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 What a great link! I've never seen this kind of comparison before. HTML is 70% faster than straight PHP, and the frameworks (even codeigniter) deliver less than 20% of the performance of straight PHP. The basic problem with frameworks is they try to be one thing for all people. This carries a lot of baggage with it. There's a lot of crap you end up pulling in that you don't want/need. Plus if you want to deviate at all, you either have to roll your own, or sometimes you simply just can't. They seem attractive with all their plugins and stuff, but honestly, rarely do the plugins do EXACTLY what you want, the way you want. It might be as simple as trying to change the look/feel of a button or something and you'll find out that you can't -- so now you have this website that has this section that doesn't look like the rest of your site. And if you find a bug, you have to try to either fix it yourself and then keep those changes migrated into new updates, or submit it to the developer and hope they implement them (and trust me, you can submit to them and have them rejected for all sorts of lame reasons -- even though the work has been done and you're using it!) I advise against it. Just follow good practices and use thin wrappers and functions. Don't get all OO googlie eyed and try to over- engineer and over-OO the code. OO is great for some things (like a User class) but don't start making some OO page renderer or form builder. Don't fall into the DB Abstraction trap either -- just use a wrapper around your DB calls (see attached), so you can swap out that wrapper if (and you almost never do) you change the DB. Don't be suckered by something like QuickForms -- you WILL run into limitations that you can't get around and are at their mercy. Don't buy the hype that DIV's are the magic bullet and TABLEs are poor design -- Tables are still the best and most ubiquitous way to align things in a browser agnostic way (including mobile phones, etc.) and to layout forms. I agree and disagree. I agree there's waaay too much herd mentality in the programming field. (Fortunately, Linus Torvalds didn't listen to the academics who insisted that microkernels where THE WAY, or we wouldn't have Linux today.) OO is nifty for some things, but it's certainly not the fountain of reusability it was originally promoted to be. And I also agree about tables versus CSS. I can render a page very precisely with tables that would take me hours to get right with CSS. And I really don't give a crap about what experts say about anything. I find experts to be wrong much of the time. OTOH, I just finished writing about 80K lines of PHP/HTML, all by hand, no OO, no classes, no nothing. Each page in one file, except for a few helper functions in a couple of common files. I wouldn't want to go through that again. I've opted for a framework on rewriting this code, just to cut down on the number of lines of code I have to manually write. But I built my own framework, which doesn't call in 20 files for each page load. Very compact. Probably not suitable for every kind of project, but it works for this. Incidentally, I would differ from the reviewer in the link above only in this respect: He maintains that every line of code adds time. While this is true, I believe it's the number of files which have to be opened which drags down framework numbers the most. When I wrote C code, the CPU would blaze through the actual code, but file opens and reads consumed far more time than in-memory code execution. Paul -- Paul M. Foster -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php I agree heavily on the file opening part. I hate having to look through a stack trace of 20 or 30 just to track down why an exception was thrown. We are working on moving our entire framework into less files and more of
Re: [PHP] Zend (or other) Framework...where to start?
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 03:50:25PM -0800, Daevid Vincent wrote: snip OMG, and don't get me started on ORM. What a bloat that is. The amount of query overhead is rediculous. All these stupid objects for even the simplest of 'glue tables'. Straight SQL, optimized for your query and the data you need is significantly faster. But if you try to use that in a framework, you have other drama to deal with. Here is the base.class.php I wrote that gives the best of all worlds IMHO... Um, your base.class.php belongs to your company and says at the top not to copy or distribute. Oops. I didn't mention ORM, but I agree completely. I come from a database background, so writing SQL and designing databases is simple to me. And I'd suggest that if you're going to work with databases, you learn their design and language (SQL). Data objects have a certain symmetry and aesthetic, but they mostly add overhead. And they isolate you from a full understanding of how the database works. Most of the system code in the world is written in C, which hasn't anything like objects. And yet all that system code works pretty well. And most of the guys who code it would smack you silly if you suggested objects to them. Paul -- Paul M. Foster -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend (or other) Framework...where to start?
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:59 AM, Paul M Foster pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote: If you're going to go with a prebuilt framework, I'd recommend CodeIgniter for your first time out. If the docs look good to you (and they are pretty good), you'll probably do fine with it. It's about the lightest weight platform out there. It doesn't get in your way too much, but gives you the benefits of using a framework. I downloaded CI because of recommendations from this list as well, but was totally shocked when I discovered that its codebase is written in PHP4! I looked up for an alpha version that is written in PHP5 to no avail. I just can't understand why would they still be in PHP4 while Symfony, a framework born after CI, requires PHP5 since version one and takes full advantage of PHP5's advanced OO features! Regards, Usamah -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Zend framework
I've not given it much thought, so far. But, am curious about what you folks think about it. Anyone with experience have a comment? Al.. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend framework
2008/12/24 Al n...@ridersite.org: I've not given it much thought, so far. But, am curious about what you folks think about it. Anyone with experience have a comment? On what? The Zend Framework? -- Richard Heyes HTML5 Graphing for FF, Chrome, Opera and Safari: http://www.rgraph.org (Updated December 20th) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend framework
Richard Heyes wrote: 2008/12/24 Al n...@ridersite.org: I've not given it much thought, so far. But, am curious about what you folks think about it. Anyone with experience have a comment? On what? The Zend Framework? Sorry, I wasn't clear. Anyone with experience using the Zend framework, in general or any particular components, have a comment? Al... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Zend Platform
Morning All, Short and sweet; does anybody have any practical experience; thoughts or case studies in regards to implementing the Zend Platform. Many Regards Nathan -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Platform
On 9 Sep 2008, at 18:52, Nathan Rixham wrote: Short and sweet; does anybody have any practical experience; thoughts or case studies in regards to implementing the Zend Platform. Yeah, I used it in my previous job a coupla years ago. It looks great, the marketing hype is well executed but as usual the reality is far from the promise. There are some aspects I really like, but mainly in concept. What you actually get is expensive extra bloat to install on your servers. * The bytecode cache can be replaced by one of several free solutions out there. * The job queue is a great idea but the implementation is problematic at best. Avoid this if you can. * The centralised logging and the alerting features are nice - this is probably the only but I really found useful. * The clustering features I did not use so didn't look at too closely, but it didn't appear to offer anything that couldn't be replicated pretty easily with open source tools. At the end of the day what you're buying is marketing hype, and there are people out there who fall for it hook line and sinker. My advice is that unless you have someone insisting you use ZP, don't. And even if you do I urge you to look at what you actually need from it and evaluate alternatives before making a commitment. Have you ever heard about Facebook, Yahoo or any other big player using it? Don't get me wrong, I think Zend is a great company, but I just don't see the value in ZP. For the price of the license you could add another server which will give you far better ROI and higher capacity then ZP could ever achieve. And don't get me started on what they've done to Zend Studio. I've switched to Aptana - same platform, but cheaper and a lot more stable. Shame! -Stut -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Zend Platform
Stut wrote: On 9 Sep 2008, at 18:52, Nathan Rixham wrote: Short and sweet; does anybody have any practical experience; thoughts or case studies in regards to implementing the Zend Platform. Yeah, I used it in my previous job a coupla years ago. It looks great, the marketing hype is well executed but as usual the reality is far from the promise. There are some aspects I really like, but mainly in concept. What you actually get is expensive extra bloat to install on your servers. * The bytecode cache can be replaced by one of several free solutions out there. * The job queue is a great idea but the implementation is problematic at best. Avoid this if you can. * The centralised logging and the alerting features are nice - this is probably the only but I really found useful. * The clustering features I did not use so didn't look at too closely, but it didn't appear to offer anything that couldn't be replicated pretty easily with open source tools. At the end of the day what you're buying is marketing hype, and there are people out there who fall for it hook line and sinker. My advice is that unless you have someone insisting you use ZP, don't. And even if you do I urge you to look at what you actually need from it and evaluate alternatives before making a commitment. Have you ever heard about Facebook, Yahoo or any other big player using it? Don't get me wrong, I think Zend is a great company, but I just don't see the value in ZP. For the price of the license you could add another server which will give you far better ROI and higher capacity then ZP could ever achieve. And don't get me started on what they've done to Zend Studio. I've switched to Aptana - same platform, but cheaper and a lot more stable. Shame! -Stut I agree with most of your post. The error logging features are great. I haven't used ZP for a while, but when I did it was nice to get an alert right away of what happened, and it also captured the variables in use at the time so that you could see why it happened. If the error reporting is what you're looking for, then the bytecode caching is a nice addition, but like you said there are OSS alternatives. I also completely agree with the Zend Studio comment. I've switched back to Zend Studio 5.5, because the Eclipse version was just so unintuitive... especially for debugging. -- Ray Hauge www.primateapplications.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
