Re: K.D. Lang
On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, stuart wrote: I find this quite hard to believe. In fact it seems from my vantage point to be quite the opposite, in terms of having family, friends, co-workers or whomever who are gay than having such in interacial relationships. I wonder what this very average sample is. There are certainly large and virulent pockets of anti-gay sentiment, most notably conservative religious sorts who see purple gay teletubbies behind every bush., My absolutely unscientific observation is that people who are not aware of being around gay people can often be homophobic, but most of them get over it (to a good degree anyway) once the blinders go up or they get to know someone who is gay. Most of the people I've met who are homophobic have never met a gay person, as far as they know. And that may explain a lot about this survey. Whereas I think the racial attitudes can cut much deeper and are tougher to overcome. Will Miner Denver, CO
Gay Country (Was: Re: K.D. Lang)
Howdy, Here's an interesting exercise... input the words "Gay" and "country music" in a web search engine. The results will take you on a fairly diverse trip. Almost none of it useful, but here's some stuff worth at least a reasonable P2 mention: Gay/Lesbian American Music Awards (GLAMA) www.glama.com Nominations are being accepted for the third annual awards show to be held in 1999. Past winners have included (listing the country/folk-associated artists): k.d. lang-- Medal of Achievement-- 1997 Ferron -- Out Music Award -- 1996 Indigo Girls -- Duo/Group of the Year -- 1998 Artists Doug Williams and the Outband -- http://www.escape.com/~bpsl/ Ferron -- http://ferronweb.com/ Well Oiled Sisters -- http://drum.gduncan.com/wos/hello.htm Other Sites Gay Lesbian Themes in Popular Music -- http://www2.kenyon.edu/people/scotts/projects/wmns21/country.htm Gay-MART (an online shopping site aimed at the homosexual market) offers a limited selection of gay-oriented country music at http://www.gaymart.com/shopmusc/1catgory/c0510109.html I filtered out most references to Garth Brooks (usually referring to "We Shall Be Free") and k.d. lang (for obvious reasons), as well as references to former CMA President Connie Gay. Also, I chose not to include references to Dolly Parton and Reba McIntyre impersonators. So there you go. Take care, Shane Rhyne Knoxville, TN [EMAIL PROTECTED] NP: Hogwaller Ramblers
RE: Gay Country (Was: Re: K.D. Lang)
This reminds me that I wanted to offer a brief observation concerning Carl Wilson's post on the subject from last week, in which he referred to a survey of attitudes toward homosexuality. I don't doubt that the respondents he described as suburban/female (I don't, alas, have the original post anymore) and hence part of the presumptive New Country target audience, exhibited less than, er, affirmative respect for gays and lesbians, but it ought to go without saying that their views aren't exactly a step backwards from the views one would find among members of the country music audience pre-, say, 1980. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: Gay Country (Was: Re: K.D. Lang)
Just a correction of the record here, Jon. I didn't argue that the views in the survey and intreviews were a step backward from anything. (And I also didn't say suburban/female - I said average middle-class - which was the focus of the survey and the related book (whose title I'll trawl up if anyone's interested)). My point was that on race, religion, culture, gender (i don't recall there was any class oriented content, unsurprisingly) the responses were much more tolerant and unprejudiced than you might expect - while the respondents may not live integrated lives racially, for instance, they recognized and earnestly expressed respect for those categories of difference. But when it came to homosexuality people were much less progressive, much readier to express discomfort, even hatred. The implication was that we haven't come as far in North Am. society on accepting diverse sexualities as we might like to think, compared to some other fronts. That's not nec. to say the survey was accurate, but insofar as it was an indicator, it reinforces the sense that the very idea of homosexuality is still fraught territory and risky for music that pitches itself more toward "average" folks. Thus it's probably a mistake underestimating the career problems it would raise for KD or any other out country musician (or light pop or rock artist, or fill-in-the-mainstream-category here) carl w.
Re: K.D. Lang
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not that I believe in polls exactly, but there was an interesting survey showing last year showing that homophobia truly is the last bastion of open intolerance in America. The authors did in-depth interviews with hundreds of very average middle-class people across the country, found them much more open-minded about race than anyone expected (tons of them brought up family members who were in interracial couples as a factor that made them reevaluate prejudice), but quite virulent in opposition to homosexuality. I find this quite hard to believe. In fact it seems from my vantage point to be quite the opposite, in terms of having family, friends, co-workers or whomever who are gay than having such in interacial relationships. I wonder what this very average sample is. There are certainly large and virulent pockets of anti-gay sentiment, most notably conservative religious sorts who see purple gay teletubbies behind every bush., Though most of them stopped short of hate-mongering, or even saying it should be a crime etc, they did honestly think it a sin. And disgusting too of course. That'd pretty much be the soccer-mom demographic country radio aims for, and I'd be pretty surprised if a gay or lesbian country star can break through before this changes. Deanna Carter is a lesbian. Well, I have no idea. But if we start spreading the rumor, will she go away? But there is a complex set of issues behind this so-called soccer mom issue and potentially gay country performers (or I should say, gay country potential performers?). One is the urge for normalcy, complacency, and the rest of the suburban fantasy of middle landscape clean white idyll that so much of corporate radio is programmed to. The other is the disruption alternative sexualities pose to this constructed weltanschauung. So, no, I don't expect a big push from the big labels/radio in breaking a gay country star. The idea is to sedate and comfort, manufacture the audience, and sell it to Wal-Mart or Applebees Neighborhood Bar and Grill. (Which I foolishly imagine it will by the time today's late-adolescents are grown, because no reasonably educated kids I meet now seem to be shocked by homosexuality anymore. But y'never know.) I meet those kids too. But I also run itno those shitless about it and will replicate in some way the fear-world of their parents (join the local suburban christian coalition church perhaps--hell, not perhaps, that's where I bump into them) All in all, I'd agree with Jon's assessment that it's still a lot better than it was in terms of outright hostility and violence. But I have my doubts about thinking it's progress rather than mutation into yet another virulant form.
RE: K.D. Lang
[Matt Benz] I have a hard time swallowing the theory that country music rejected Lang cos she campaigned -briefly, we're talking one ad campaign here- against eating beef. I know there was a uproar among the beef industry, but if a music scene turned on her based on that, well, then who needs said industry? Silly, rilly.
Re: K.D. Lang
Jon J wrote about cueers in quountry music: A lot of the old taboos have fallen in the last ten years or so, but that's still the Big One. The eventual emergence of the first openly gay country music star is going to be one of the more fascinating milestones in country music when it finally happens. Not that I believe in polls exactly, but there was an interesting survey showing last year showing that homophobia truly is the last bastion of open intolerance in America. The authors did in-depth interviews with hundreds of very average middle-class people across the country, found them much more open-minded about race than anyone expected (tons of them brought up family members who were in interracial couples as a factor that made them reevaluate prejudice), but quite virulent in opposition to homosexuality. Though most of them stopped short of hate-mongering, or even saying it should be a crime etc, they did honestly think it a sin. And disgusting too of course. That'd pretty much be the soccer-mom demographic country radio aims for, and I'd be pretty surprised if a gay or lesbian country star can break through before this changes. (Which I foolishly imagine it will by the time today's late-adolescents are grown, because no reasonably educated kids I meet now seem to be shocked by homosexuality anymore. But y'never know.) Not that rock-based pop music or, for god's sakes, hip-hop are terrifically open-minded on the matter either, but it is pretty hard to imagine even a country equivalent of Marilyn Manson's level of androgyny (a good example since he makes a big deal of being straight), much less an out-and-proud pop twanger. carl w.
Re: k.d. lang (was Re: Heather Myles Injustice)
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: passenger side [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 7:27 AM Subject: k.d. lang (was Re: Heather Myles Injustice) ...k.d. lang who does have a superior voice and who did put out a really good album "Absolute Torch Twang" and who saw Nashville abandon her due to her non cover-girl looks and the rumors that she was gay. Lang gave up, left her brand of western swing/country and donned a "pop" hat with "Constant Craving" and admitted that she was gay.(snip) Well, you probably said a number of things that folks will be interested in, Tera g, but I am curious about the above, mainly because I honestly don't know or can't remember; did Nashville actually abandon Lang? I mean, was she dropped, was her budget slashed, did radio or the club promoters turn against her? I don't know, and would really like to know why she moved away and into pop if it was for some reason other than just personal preference. thanks, Dan Bentele Many factors led up to her "decision" to try other music. k.d. received a lot of pressure from the press and from inside the Nashville community to discuss her androgenous image. It became quite a focal point and it was rumored and discussed that she may be gay. Ever hear of the old game whereby when "they" don't like you, they'll use anything which comes down the pike to discredit you? k.d. made a few "mistakes" by voicing her opinions on several subjects. I've read some of the comments made here by other posters and no one is incorrect. On the subject of her appearance she said (from memory) that it shouldn't matter what a person looks like and that her "androgenous" style was something she chose to do. When asked if she had a "boyfriend" she said that she was involved with someone but that she didn't think her personal life should be in question. Nebulous answers (and you know how the media reacts to that) which only created more controversy. Further, she promoted not eating beef and also stated that her dog was a vegetarian. She commented on not wanting to wear leather anymore. So, all of these things combined gave k.d. some very bad press and she was snubbed by some in Nashville. No, she did not get dropped by her record label (Sire) and went on to record "Ingenue" which was her foray into "adult contemporary" music where she believed she would be more accepted while publicly stating that she wished to "try" other music until she openly admitted in a gay forum magazine that she was gay. It was just too difficult to have her image constantly discussed and her lifestyle "pryed" into and the fact that country radio was not willing to play and promote her music. Owen Bradley thought she had an incredible voice and talent and he worked with her on "Shadowland" which also showcased a nice medley with Loretta, Kitty and Brenda Lee. It does not matter what anyone says, k.d.'s "gayness" led to her oh-so-subtle Nashville blacklisting. You know, when was the last time you heard a country artist proclaim their "gayness"? It's still not accepted - although it may be lightening up a bit as I'm wondering who thought to have Melissa Etheridge contribute to the Tammy Wynette Tribute cd...or for that matter, Elton John? Anyway, it really shouldn't matter. What should matter is an artists sensitivity, sincerity and ability to successfully transfer ideas/emotions with songs. Maybe k.d. will record another country album again. I hope so. Lang has a spectacular voice and possesses an incredible ability to interpret a song. k.d. has won three grammy awards by the way: "BestCountry Vocal Collaboration 1989; Best Country Vocal Performance 1990; Best Pop Vocal Performance- 1992. Tera
Re: k.d. lang (was Re: Heather Myles Injustice)
On Fri, 5 Feb 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: did Nashville actually abandon Lang? I mean, was she dropped, was her budget slashed, did radio or the club promoters turn against her? I don't know, and would really like to know why she moved away and into pop if it was for some reason other than just personal preference. Sorry to chime in late here, but I recall an interview around the time of "Ingenue" in which she simply claimed that "I lost my passion for country." The Patsy Cline fixation was over. Maybe because of all of the hullaballoo over eatings cows, but she sure brought that one on herself. Will Miner Denver, CO
Re: k.d. lang (was Re: Heather Myles Injustice)
Will Miner wrote: Sorry to chime in late here, but I recall an interview around the time of "Ingenue" in which she simply claimed that "I lost my passion for country." The Patsy Cline fixation was over. Maybe because of all of the hullaballoo over eatings cows, but she sure brought that one on herself. ya know, I think k.d. just ran into basically the same wall that a lot of us have run into in one form or another over the years. She made it deeper into alien territory than most, but so did yoakum and Ely and several of them in those days and it just didn't pan out as well as we all hoped. There was no way she was gonna make those kind of records just to get into the charts. -- Joe Gracey President-For-Life, Jackalope Records http://www.kimmierhodes.com
Re: k.d. lang (was Re: Heather Myles Injustice)
Dan Bentele writes: Well, you probably said a number of things that folks will be interested in, Tera g, but I am curious about the above, mainly because I honestly don't know or can't remember; did Nashville actually abandon Lang? I mean, was she dropped, was her budget slashed, did radio or the club promoters turn against her? I don't know, and would really like to know why she moved away and into pop if it was for some reason other than just personal preference. As I remember it, there had been some rumors about her sexuality here and there before she came out, but I don't think that was what caused Nashville to turn its back on her. I really don't recall the fact that she was a lesbian as being a huge surprise to anyone. More than anything else, it was her fight with western cattle ranchers that did in her country career, which happened shortly before she came out. Country radio stations out west refused to play her records until she apologized, she refused to do so, and she became a tough sell at radio after that since there was a big chunk of the nation in which her records wouldn't be played. Goodbye country, hello new career. I remember seeing her in New Hampshire on the "Shadowlands" tour and it was the weirdest audience I've ever seen. The audience was pretty equally distributed between Silent Majority-type country fans, yuppies, and the butchest lesbians I've ever seen in my life. --Jon Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wollaston, Massachusetts
RE: k.d. lang (was Re: Heather Myles Injustice)
New Hampshire Jon says: As I remember it, there had been some rumors about her sexuality here and there before she came out, but I don't think that was what caused Nashville to turn its back on her. I really don't recall the fact that she was a lesbian as being a huge surprise to anyone. More than anything else, it was her fight with western cattle ranchers that did in her country career, which happened shortly before she came out. That accords with my recollection and with the account in the Encyclopedia of Country Music, which points out that Lang never did do well on country radio (though she did win a country Grammy in 1989) during the 3 years between her Sire debut and her 1990 coming out as a vegetarian, which was actually several years before her other coming out. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
RE: K.D. Lang
I'd think that Lang left off trying to make it in the country music field because she didn't have much success in it, and while coming out might have been the last nail in the coffin, her no-meat stance (- indicates public aspect, not just private taste) *was* poorly received, and it *did* come a couple of years before her sexual orientation was a matter of public discussion. The fact is, though, that even before that, she may have been a critics' fave and a Grammy winner (though we know about the vagaries of NARAS voting on country categories), but she got nowhere to speak of on the radio - two singles that tiptoed up to the low 20s on the Billboard chart at a time (88-89) when things hadn't really shut down yet, and folks like Lovett, Earle, Carpenter, et. al. were doing as well or better. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: K.D. Lang
There are several lesbians in country music who have done quite well. Oh really? By all means, name even one successful *openly* gay country artist, male or female. Yeah, this baffled me, too. Who (short of spreading unsubstantiated rumors, of course)? And by what terms is "quite well" defined? 10,000 copies of an indie release sold, or actual top 40 hits? It's still considered the commerical kiss of death to publicly cop to same sex orientation in country circles. It's a fact, jack. Yeah, it might be coincidence, but remember how quickly Randy Travis married his manager several years back when the rumors about him reached a certain critical mass. A lot of the old taboos have fallen in the last ten years or so, but that's still the Big One. The eventual emergence of the first openly gay country music star is going to be one of the more fascinating milestones in country music when it finally happens. --Jon Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wollaston, Massachusetts
RE: K.D. Lang
On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Jon Weisberger wrote: Ty Herndon seems to have overcome the, er, questions raised about his sexuality (not just male/female orientation) by his solicitation arrest of a couple of years ago. Yes, but did he then come out and say "okay folks, cat's out of the bag, I like men and whaddya think about that, huh?" No, he hoped the matter would just quietly disappear if he didn't comment on it too much. And I guess it did. In other words, Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Kip Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: K.D. Lang
In a message dated 2/5/99 10:22:37 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh for christ sake...the fact that K.D. made her anti-meat sentiments loudly known had a lot less to do with her lack of success in the country market than the fact that she didn't look/act the way succesful Top 40 female artists are supposed to look/act. There seem to be several other P2ers who disagree with your take on that. Is it your opinion or do you have any wayt to prove that? There are several lesbians in country music who have done quite well. Oh really? By all means, name even one successful *openly* gay country artist, male or female. I never said they were out, bubba. And it is not my place to "out" anyone, but I will remind you of Ty Herndon's arrest in a Texas city park, which is a matter of public record. While the charges placed were for Indecent Exposure and possesion of drugs, the police report that was faxed to about a million offices in Nashville described what was obviously an attempt to pick up an undercover officer of the same sex. He has made quite a comeback from the debacle, which may indicate that the current HNC fans are either more forgiving, or have very short memories. Slim
RE: K.D. Lang
Lianne: (Frankly, I don't believe that soliciting homosexual sex for drugs is quite the same thing as being a homosexual...) Let's see Nah, I'm not gonna go there g. --junior
Re: K.D. Lang
In a message dated 2/5/99 12:10:09 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Frankly, I don't believe that soliciting homosexual sex for drugs is quite the same thing as being a homosexual...) According to the report, Herndon had a baggie of crystal meth that he offered to share with the cop before they did whatever it is that two men do together. Slim
K.D. Lang
Kip: Oh for christ sake...the fact that K.D. made her anti-meat sentiments loudly known had a lot less to do with her lack of success in the country market than the fact that she didn't look/act the way succesful Top 40 female artists are supposed to look/act. Slim: There seem to be several other P2ers who disagree with your take on that. Is it your opinion or do you have any way to prove that? It would be just about impossible to "prove" either way. There aren't statistics available on the acceptance of country audiences to to gay performers, other than the utter lack of commerically successful openly gay artists. Slim: There are several lesbians in country music who have done quite well. Kip: Oh really? By all means, name even one successful *openly* gay country artist, male or female. Slim: I never said they were out, bubba. Exactly. Look, I'm not trying to pick on country music fans: I'm a huge country music fan! But historically, it's not been the most tolerant of uh, alternative lifestyles. That's not exactly a news flash. Kip
Re: K.D. Lang
At 01:16 PM 2/5/99 EST, Slim wrote: In a message dated 2/5/99 12:10:09 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Frankly, I don't believe that soliciting homosexual sex for drugs is quite the same thing as being a homosexual...) According to the report, Herndon had a baggie of crystal meth that he offered to share with the cop before they did whatever it is that two men do together. Oh? Interesting. I have only had second or third-hand reports on the incident, so from all that I read I had gotten the impression he was trying to GET drugs. Lianne
Re: K.D. Lang
One last thing about Ms. Lang, and then I'll leave the topic alone. Not like's it's never been discussed here g. To clarify: although k.d.'s sexual orientation probably wasn't the only factor that aliented potential fans and kept her off the radio (another being she was, at time, too "country" for country radio), I still say it was the biggest reason. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Kip, over and out
RE: K.D. Lang
I like k.d. lang. I also like the nasty quote attributed to her fiddle player, Ben Mink, who said something like "going to Nashville was like walking in on some big old inbred family who'd just hit the lottery." -- Geff King * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://www2.ari.net/gking/ "Don't let me catch you laughin' when the jukebox cries" - Kinky Friedman, "Sold American"
Re: k.d. lang (was Re: Heather Myles Injustice)
Jon Weisberger wrote: New Hampshire Jon says: As I remember it, there had been some rumors about her sexuality here and there before she came out, but I don't think that was what caused Nashville to turn its back on her. I really don't recall the fact that she was a lesbian as being a huge surprise to anyone. More than anything else, it was her fight with western cattle ranchers that did in her country career, which happened shortly before she came out. That accords with my recollection a. Mine too. I lived in Topeka Kansas then and there were several outraged columns in the newspaper and the local stations of course banned her. Kansas of course is the state when you enter you see a large billboard of a steak, with the simple command "Eat Beef!" This slogan is apparantly also required to be displayed on all pick up trucks in the state. I've seen lesbians at Kansas rodeos, but never an "out" vegetarian. Some things are just beyond the pale. Stuart steak sounds good for dinner
