RE: CSquestions: stir vs. bubble

[I Anderson]

Gaston,

I tried bubbling with first with air and then argon. I found in using
air that I was seeing a definite Tyndall Beam (TE for Alison) with
many sparkles, which is not acceptable in my product. Argon was
better, but too expensive, so I only use that as a pressure source for
my filter (0.2um so that I can claim filter sterilisation). I find a
slow mechanical or thermal stirring to result in a perfectly clear
product with no TE. The selection of a very small current density is
the secret of fine CS, and my small commercial generators use this to
good effect, generating 15ppm in 500mls in about 2.5 hrs with no
stirring required (however I do recommend stirring by hand two or
three times during the run).

But to be honest, I have not compared the actual silver concentration
vs. conductivity of bubbled and stirred CS, which is why I only
suggested an increase in conductivity due to CO2 inclusion, which
never the less I believe to highly likely.

Regards
Ivan.

 -Original Message-
 From: Gaston [mailto:obouc...@colba.net]
 Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2002 2:33 a.m.
 To: *Silver-List* (E-mail)
 Subject: Re: CSquestions: stir vs. bubble


 Hi Ole Bob

 I see the reply from Ivan about CS that will probably read
 higher when using a bubbler instead a stirrer.

 Have you had a chance of comparing the two to prove that pls ?

 I presume that Ivan has done so.

 Gaston

 =
 - Original Message -
 From: I Anderson i...@win.co.nz
 To: silver-list@eskimo.com
 Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 3:46 AM
 Subject: RE: CSquestions: stir vs. bubble


  Connie,
 
  A couple of thoughts come to mind:
 
  The stirrer does not mix too well.
  You are trying for too high a concentration.
  The bubbler introduces CO2 gas to the water, which will ionise and
  give a false (high) reading.
 
  If you are finding a change in the CS when exposed to light
 then it is
  possibly due to the quality of your water.
 
  Regards
  Ivan.


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RE: CScolloidal gold.

[I Anderson]

Satchid,

The standard reduction potential of gold is
1.52V Au --- Au+++ or 1.83V --- Au+.
The only thing that stops this reaction occurring at near this voltage
is electrode polarisation, which may be overcome in an acidic
solution.
Note that this method results in ionic gold and perhaps should not be
taken.

Regards
Ivan

 -Original Message-
 From: Satchid [mailto:satc...@sevaproductions.com]
 Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2002 7:26 a.m.
 To: silver-list@eskimo.com
 Subject: CScolloidal gold.



 I tried today (probably still with the right transformers to
 make colloidal
 gold. I could not get good result. the one transformer is to
 low voltage
 (4500 V 100 ma) the other is 8000V 50 Ma.
 I decided to try the low voltage way again but not that low.
 So, I took a
 Diode bridge and connected the AC side directly to the main
 240v then I
 connected the positive to the gold electrode the negative to a
silver
 electrode. At first I had current but it stayed almost stable. Then
It
 started slowly to go up from 1.35 ma and it is now already at
 9 ma and this
 after about 45 minutes. For this I used no current limiting.
 Do you think that I have colloidal Gold?

 Thank You

 Satchid


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Re: CSPolarity Switch Experiment

[Kevin Nolan]

Thanks for performing that interesting experiment, Steve. I,ve yet to put a 
switching circuit together, but in thinking about your results there seems only 
one likely possibility. Plate-out rate must be considerably higher on a 'fresh' 
electrode surface (corresponding to the polarity switching regime) relative to 
one that has been plating for some time (non-switched run). Hence there is a 
greater proportion of CS (actually ionic silver) that simply recycles from one 
electrode to the other. If that were not so the almost identical currents and 
times would lead to the same final PPM's. There will be a fairly complex 
surface phenomenon involved here. Wonder though whether your results would 
still apply to other situations - for instance much lower voltages and higher 
initial conductivity such as when adding citric acid as 'starter' (my 
situation)? Must get around to putting that switching circuit together.

regards, Kevin Nolan

- Original Message - 
From: S  J Young you...@konnections.net
To: Silver List silver-list@eskimo.com
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 2:37 PM
Subject: CSPolarity Switch Experiment


 List,
 
 I performed the following experiment:
 
 Case 1 was to make one quart of CS using a constant 1 ma DC current for 4
 hours with electrodes spaced about 2 inches and with constant stirring.
 Starting V= 173.7 volts, I=0.86 ma, so R = 202K.  Ending V = 13.8, I=1.18
 ma, so R= 11.7K.  Using Ivan's formala, the PPM was 1.3*(202/11.7) = 22.4
 PPM.   uS measured 14.5 with Hanna PWT.  At the end there was some gunk
 which sluffed off the wires and sunk to the bottom.
 
 Case 2 is exactly the same as Case 1, except the polarity was reversed about
 every 45 seconds.  Start V=168, I=0.96 so R=175K.  End V=30, I=1.16 so
 R=25.9K.  PPM calculates to 8.8 and measured 6.7 uS.  Both wires were black,
 but no gunk was produced.
 
 Both batches have very faint Tyndall effect, visiable only in a dark room.
 Case 1 was slightly more visible.  Both were made with Wallmart DW which
 measures around 1 uS with the PWT.
 
 So it is obvious to me that polarity reversing definitely produces a weaker
 batch.  Case 1 is (14.5-1)/(6.7-1) = about 2.4 times stronger, comparing uS
 measurements.  Or, case 1 is 22.4/8.8= about 2.5 times higher PPM using
 Ivan's formula.
 
 Granted this was not a highly controlled experiment.  One quart jar may have
 had a bit more residual silver which had plated out on the glass than
 another.  I may not have filled the jars to exactly the same level, the 120
 volt line voltage may have been a bit different, etc.  But the difference
 (more than a factor of 2) between polarity reversal and not is much too
 large to be explained away be sloppy experiment procedures.
 
 So it appears that one must run their constant current generator a bit more
 than twice as long if polarity reversal is used to end up with the same PPM
 for no reversal.  What is interesting is that at polarity reversal time, the
 voltage rises up and settles back to the pre-switch voltage in just a few
 seconds.  Thus one would think the production strength would not be affected
 more than 10% or so instead of over 50%.
 
 So, fellow scientists, why the big drop in uS or PPM when polarity switching
 is used?  How about if some of you repeat the experiment to ensure my
 findings are valid?  I suspect similar results will occur even if your
 generator is not constant current (e.g. 3 9 volt batteries).
 
 --Steve
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: CSsource for silver wire

[Ode Coyote]

  www.ccsilver.com and www.monsterslayer.com are both good people to deal
with and a good supply should  cost you under $10. 
 Pure silver wire is very hard to find locally for any sort of good price.
Ken

At 09:00 AM 1/18/02 -0700, you wrote:
If I wanted to purchase silver wire locally, where (besides a jeweler) 
would I look?

Thanks,

BJ


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Re: CSquestions: stir vs. bubble

[Ode Coyote]

  Someone mentioned a lot of sparklies when using a bubbler.  This could be
dust and pollen.
 A thought here...
 If one adds just a little H2O2 to the water at start, silver flakes will
form. 
 Is it possible that adding a lot of oxygen to the electrolyzing water [by
bubbling] might make some hydrogen peroxide?

 Stir speed:
I've found that stirring too fast promotes a build up of a fuzzy grey
deposit that grows opposite to the direction of the water currents.
 I believe this to be caused by water pressure keeping the size of the
hydrogen bubbles so small that their bouyancy won't overcome their adhesion
to the electrode and silver becomes deposited on the surface tension of the
water/bubble interface.
 As the hydrogen bubble is stabilized in size by the coating, a new bubble
forms and also becomes stabilized. Eventually, a structure forms on the
electrode that falls off into the water as light grey chunks. Also, this
build up is only semi conductive and slows the process [keeping the
hydrogen bubbles forming slowly]...sometimes developing a feedback loop
that just makes the structure bigger and deposits little silver into the
water.
 The upside to a bubble system is that it might knock those hydrogen
bubbles loose before the structure can grow.
 The downside is a possibilty that H2O2??? could form and the addition of
so much oxygen might increase silver oxide levels.

 I have found that freshly ozonated water produces more oxide deposits than
the same water that has been outgassed.

 I have found that a high speed DC motor will do a good job if the stirrer
is straight. The rate of stir can be adjusted by shortening the stirrer.
Just 3/8 of an inch of a spinning straight cylindrical stirrer exposed to
the waters surface creates a vortex that reaches the bottom of the
container like a slow tornado. Place a tiny piece of paper in the water to
see just where the currents go. It spirals down the center of the vortex
and wafts up the outside of the container when it reaches bottom. A longer
stirrer can make the water look like it's going down a drain.
 

 The slower the currents , the better...as long as it keeps all the water
moving.
Ken

At 10:16 AM 1/18/02 -0800, you wrote:
Here's my take on it.

I don't like bubbling because of several reasons.

1.  Typically there are about 10,000 spores and dust particles in each 
cubic foot of air near the floor.  That level decreases with height but 
nevertheless one can see that air is NOT clean in an average room.  I do 
not think it wise to pump those particles through the water.  I also think 
that it will raise the conductivity of the water giving one the false 
impression the mix is getting stronger.  Stirring doesn't have this downside.

2.  As Ivan stated, it also adds Co2 to the water.  Stirring does not.

3.  The bubblers most people opt for have tubing and diaphragms made of 
some plastic which may or may not outgas into the water.  Not good.

As to the other part.  I tell our customers that it isn't the PPM that 
counts because that's only a measure of the weight of silver.  1 PPM = 1 mg 
silver.  It's how many particles the silver is divided into that gives the 
most efficacy.  So we say,  if some is good (PPM),  more is not necessarily 
better.  I think many people fall for the idea that higher PPM is better 
when the fact is, strong mixes can lead to agglomeration and less total 
particles in a given measure of water.  We recommend not making CS over 10 
PPM so as to get a clear mix.  If they want more silver particles in their 
system, we tell them to drink more of the water, not try to make it 
stronger.  It is self defeating to keep trying for the strongest mix
possible.

As to the SG6 Auto.  I have done quite a bit of experimenting with 
different motors and stirring speeds before settling on the motor speed we 
use which was 30 RPM but is now 40 RPM (different motor).  My observations 
are that it only takes a very gentle movement of the water to move the 
cloud away from the anode.  It does not take vigorous movement.  Slow 
stirring accomplishes that quite easily.  I have watched the dispersion for 
long periods using a laser pointer to see the movement.  I think vigorous 
stirring can cause more agglomeration than gentle stirring.  That's only an 
opinion...I may be wrong.  I had poor results when using a small higher 
speed DC motor.  Maybe others have better results.

Someone said that the generator is designed for a pint.  That's sort of 
true.  It does work best in a pint.  However it also works in much larger 
vessels.  It just takes longer and there is a bit of stratification if the 
vessel is very deep.  However, the CS disburses over a few hours.  We tell 
folks that there are 3 ways around this.

a.  Set the dial a bit higher than you really want the end strength of the 
mix to be.  It will average out to the strength you desired after shut-down.
b.  Wait a while for the mix to disburse and turn the generator back on to 
add a bit more 

Re: CSfirst batch

[Ode Coyote]

  Distilled water will take much much longer than boiled water as the
initial conductivity of the distilled is much less.
ken

At 07:16 PM 1/19/02 +1300, you wrote:
My mother and I made our first batches of CS today. ( I had made 
a trial batch using boiled water last week but only got my distilled 
water yesterday - and Mum had to wait till yesterday for me to get 
the generator that I made for her to her)

I was very happy with mine - after about 15 mins one rod had 
bubbles rising from it and the other had the finest wisps coming off 
it so I timed it 5 mins from then.  I plan on drinking 40mls a day, 
more if I feel myself coming down with something.

My mothers batch, even after an hour she could not see wisps 
tho she had the rising bubbles and the tarnished rods.  Can we 
assume that she has made CS?  Yes, she did use distilled water 
at room temperature.  She is 65 and her eyes are not as good as 
they once were.  Maybe there is a possibility that she just didnt 
see the wisps as they were so fine.  I would be grateful for any 
opinion here.  What indication does one get when the batteries are 
going flat? 

Also, what is the shelf life of CS?  I was wondering about putting 
some in a small bottle and keeping it in my handbag for any 
eventuality.  Does anyone else do this?  Is it adviseable?

Alison
in New Zealand


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Re: CSPolarity Switch Experiment

[Kevin Nolan]

There is one other possibility not mentioned below - a much higher ratio of 
true CS to ionic silver for the polarity switched case. Given your faint tyndal 
effect observations in both cases, that possibility seems to be ruled out.

Kevin Nolan
  - Original Message - 
  From: Kevin Nolan 
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 11:30 PM
  Subject: Re: CSPolarity Switch Experiment


  Thanks for performing that interesting experiment, Steve. I,ve yet to put a 
switching circuit together, but in thinking about your results there seems only 
one likely possibility. Plate-out rate must be considerably higher on a 'fresh' 
electrode surface (corresponding to the polarity switching regime) relative to 
one that has been plating for some time (non-switched run). Hence there is a 
greater proportion of CS (actually ionic silver) that simply recycles from one 
electrode to the other. If that were not so the almost identical currents and 
times would lead to the same final PPM's. There will be a fairly complex 
surface phenomenon involved here. Wonder though whether your results would 
still apply to other situations - for instance much lower voltages and higher 
initial conductivity such as when adding citric acid as 'starter' (my 
situation)? Must get around to putting that switching circuit together.

  regards, Kevin Nolan

  - Original Message - 
  From: S  J Young you...@konnections.net
  To: Silver List silver-list@eskimo.com
  Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 2:37 PM
  Subject: CSPolarity Switch Experiment


   List,
   
   I performed the following experiment:
   
   Case 1 was to make one quart of CS using a constant 1 ma DC current for 4
   hours with electrodes spaced about 2 inches and with constant stirring.
   Starting V= 173.7 volts, I=0.86 ma, so R = 202K.  Ending V = 13.8, I=1.18
   ma, so R= 11.7K.  Using Ivan's formala, the PPM was 1.3*(202/11.7) = 22.4
   PPM.   uS measured 14.5 with Hanna PWT.  At the end there was some gunk
   which sluffed off the wires and sunk to the bottom.
   
   Case 2 is exactly the same as Case 1, except the polarity was reversed about
   every 45 seconds.  Start V=168, I=0.96 so R=175K.  End V=30, I=1.16 so
   R=25.9K.  PPM calculates to 8.8 and measured 6.7 uS.  Both wires were black,
   but no gunk was produced.
   
   Both batches have very faint Tyndall effect, visiable only in a dark room.
   Case 1 was slightly more visible.  Both were made with Wallmart DW which
   measures around 1 uS with the PWT.
   
   So it is obvious to me that polarity reversing definitely produces a weaker
   batch.  Case 1 is (14.5-1)/(6.7-1) = about 2.4 times stronger, comparing uS
   measurements.  Or, case 1 is 22.4/8.8= about 2.5 times higher PPM using
   Ivan's formula.
   
   Granted this was not a highly controlled experiment.  One quart jar may have
   had a bit more residual silver which had plated out on the glass than
   another.  I may not have filled the jars to exactly the same level, the 120
   volt line voltage may have been a bit different, etc.  But the difference
   (more than a factor of 2) between polarity reversal and not is much too
   large to be explained away be sloppy experiment procedures.
   
   So it appears that one must run their constant current generator a bit more
   than twice as long if polarity reversal is used to end up with the same PPM
   for no reversal.  What is interesting is that at polarity reversal time, the
   voltage rises up and settles back to the pre-switch voltage in just a few
   seconds.  Thus one would think the production strength would not be affected
   more than 10% or so instead of over 50%.
   
   So, fellow scientists, why the big drop in uS or PPM when polarity switching
   is used?  How about if some of you repeat the experiment to ensure my
   findings are valid?  I suspect similar results will occur even if your
   generator is not constant current (e.g. 3 9 volt batteries).
   
   --Steve
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
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Re: CScolloidal gold.

[Kevin Nolan]

Ivan - suppose one used LVDC and an acid solution to produce ionic gold
solution. Are there not chemical reduction methods that might not produce an
acceptably fine gold colloid? I imagine rapid stirring may be needed when
adding, eg, sodium carbonate (just guessing here). Traditional CG has been
made that way I think. It would certainly avoid some of the Frankenstein
HVAC requirements, including it seems boiling the water at times before
completing a run.

regards, Kevin Nolan

- Original Message -
From: I Anderson i...@win.co.nz
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 9:29 PM
Subject: RE: CScolloidal gold.


 Satchid,

 The standard reduction potential of gold is
 1.52V Au --- Au+++ or 1.83V --- Au+.
 The only thing that stops this reaction occurring at near this voltage
 is electrode polarisation, which may be overcome in an acidic
 solution.
 Note that this method results in ionic gold and perhaps should not be
 taken.

 Regards
 Ivan

  -Original Message-
  From: Satchid [mailto:satc...@sevaproductions.com]
  Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2002 7:26 a.m.
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com
  Subject: CScolloidal gold.
 
 
 
  I tried today (probably still with the right transformers to
  make colloidal
  gold. I could not get good result. the one transformer is to
  low voltage
  (4500 V 100 ma) the other is 8000V 50 Ma.
  I decided to try the low voltage way again but not that low.
  So, I took a
  Diode bridge and connected the AC side directly to the main
  240v then I
  connected the positive to the gold electrode the negative to a
 silver
  electrode. At first I had current but it stayed almost stable. Then
 It
  started slowly to go up from 1.35 ma and it is now already at
  9 ma and this
  after about 45 minutes. For this I used no current limiting.
  Do you think that I have colloidal Gold?
 
  Thank You
 
  Satchid
 
 
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CSCG

[rob-bac]

Thanks Ole-Bob and others, for your comments how to start with CG making.
Especially the drawing of Ole Bob's elektrode holder I copied on paper and will 
study that. Probably next week I will pick up a CG generator from a friend who 
bought one from the US, we can use that here with an extra trafo 100-220V. It 
probably is such an arc CG generator. I will see how the elektrodes are placed 
and certainly will follow your advice. Even making the holder will not be to 
difficult. Thanks for the help and the offer about the pyrex tubes. If I'm 
unable to obtain them here I'll let you know.
RB

Re: CSLearning the lingo

[Marshall Dudley]

I am not aware of a list, might not be a bad idea.  Here are some off the
top of my head:

CS colloidal silver
CG colloidal gold
CC colloidal copper
HERX herximer reaction
CFS cronic fatigue syndrom
MS multiple schlorosis

I notice that often when a disease starts being mentioned that has a long
name, people will begin abbreviating it.  This is a spur of the moment thing
quite often to save typing time.

Marshall

aliso...@ihug.co.nz wrote:

 I have been on this list for about a fortnight now and I find it is a
 wealth of information.  I do, however, have one problemits all the
 capital letters that people use to describe things.  I know that CS
 stands for colloidal silver (stands to reason doesnt it) and I think I
 have worked out that ABX might be short for antibiotics but most
 of the rest confuse the heck out of me.  Is there an archive list
 anywhere of what most of the short forms people use are?

 Alison

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Re: CSfirst batch

[Marshall Dudley]

aliso...@ihug.co.nz wrote:

 My mothers batch, even after an hour she could not see wisps
 tho she had the rising bubbles and the tarnished rods.  Can we
 assume that she has made CS?  Yes, she did use distilled water
 at room temperature.  She is 65 and her eyes are not as good as
 they once were.  Maybe there is a possibility that she just didnt
 see the wisps as they were so fine.  I would be grateful for any
 opinion here.  What indication does one get when the batteries are
 going flat?


Have her get a laser pointer and look for the tyndall.  That can be seen
with very poor eyesight and gives a crude approximation of how much CS you
have.


 Also, what is the shelf life of CS?  I was wondering about putting
 some in a small bottle and keeping it in my handbag for any
 eventuality.  Does anyone else do this?  Is it adviseable?

Good quality that is kept at room temperature and in the dark seems to keep
indefinitely. Lower quality, or if any impurities are introduced into the CS
can lead to an early loss of activity.  For instance, I had one person who
repeatedly kept reporting that our CS would aggregate and fall out in a few
weeks although other samples of the same batch would keep indefinitely.
Took a while to figure out that the problem was that he was drinking from
the CS bottle, and the small amount of spit being introduced was causing it
to aggregate over time.

Marshall


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RE: CSquestions: stir vs. bubble

[James Osbourne, Holmes]

My experience is that just allowing water to stand loosely covered in a
gallon beaker  will allow it to absorb enough CO2 to increase the
conductivity and lower the pH.  It follows that bubbling will greatly
accelerate that process up to the point that the water will accept no more.

James-Osbourne: Holmes

-Original Message-
From: Trem [mailto:t...@silvergen.com]
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 4:12 PM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CSquestions: stir vs. bubble

Well sure, your room is probably relatively clear of dust and spores but
that doesn't affect the average person that isn't running an ion or ozone
machine.  There's a lot of stuff in the air on average.

So, I still wouldn't bubble my CS.  But we all have our preferences.

Trem

Tel.  At 11:54 AM 1/18/2002 -0700, you wrote:
With all due respect Trem:
I have used stir  with a motor  bubble also no stir at all, and a chop
stick stir
by hand.  I to use a laser light and a pwt testerbut what makes me
assume my
CS is clean of dust as you believe, is I have three Clean Air Ozone
generators in
my house running 24 hrs a day to eliminate all dust and charge the air
with extra
oxygen, I have four generators most of the time, but one is lent
out.  When I make
CS, once a week, I put a 3000 square foot generator in a 10 by 10 room and
turn it
on and close the door.  It smells like a fresh rain and thunder storm had
just
passed over. very clean, my computer hardly ever has a film on it like
before I
started using the Ozone generators.  PS  My silver tastes better with
ozone too,
but I do not know if it IS better?  All I know for sure is that it works on
my
family and bets.. Peace !
Tel Tofflemire
Phoenix , AZ

Trem wrote:

  Here's my take on it.
 
  I don't like bubbling because of several reasons.
 
  1.  Typically there are about 10,000 spores and dust particles in each
  cubic foot of air near the floor.  That level decreases with height but
  nevertheless one can see that air is NOT clean in an average room.  I do
  not think it wise to pump those particles through the water.  I also
think
  that it will raise the conductivity of the water giving one the false
  impression the mix is getting stronger.  Stirring doesn't have this
 downside.
 
  2.  As Ivan stated, it also adds Co2 to the water.  Stirring does not.
 
  3.  The bubblers most people opt for have tubing and diaphragms made of
  some plastic which may or may not outgas into the water.  Not good.
 
  As to the other part.  I tell our customers that it isn't the PPM that
  counts because that's only a measure of the weight of silver.  1 PPM = 1
mg
  silver.  It's how many particles the silver is divided into that gives
the
  most efficacy.  So we say,  if some is good (PPM),  more is not
necessarily
  better.  I think many people fall for the idea that higher PPM is better
  when the fact is, strong mixes can lead to agglomeration and less total
  particles in a given measure of water.  We recommend not making CS over
10
  PPM so as to get a clear mix.  If they want more silver particles in
their
  system, we tell them to drink more of the water, not try to make it
  stronger.  It is self defeating to keep trying for the strongest mix
 possible.
 
  As to the SG6 Auto.  I have done quite a bit of experimenting with
  different motors and stirring speeds before settling on the motor speed
we
  use which was 30 RPM but is now 40 RPM (different motor).  My
observations
  are that it only takes a very gentle movement of the water to move the
  cloud away from the anode.  It does not take vigorous movement.  Slow
  stirring accomplishes that quite easily.  I have watched the dispersion
for
  long periods using a laser pointer to see the movement.  I think
vigorous
  stirring can cause more agglomeration than gentle stirring.  That's only
an
  opinion...I may be wrong.  I had poor results when using a small higher

  speed DC motor.  Maybe others have better results.
 
  Someone said that the generator is designed for a pint.  That's sort of
  true.  It does work best in a pint.  However it also works in much
larger
  vessels.  It just takes longer and there is a bit of stratification if
the
  vessel is very deep.  However, the CS disburses over a few hours.  We
tell
  folks that there are 3 ways around this.
 
  a.  Set the dial a bit higher than you really want the end strength of
the
  mix to be.  It will average out to the strength you desired after
 shut-down.
  b.  Wait a while for the mix to disburse and turn the generator back on
to
  add a bit more silver to the water.
  c.  Make a smaller quantity at one time and combine the fractions.
 
  When making a half gallon at a time one has to expect to have some
  differences compared to making a pint.  It's not the same.
 
  Immediately after making the CS, the PWT generally reads higher than the
  next day.  That's because there is more ionic silver then than after
some
  of the particles have become colloidal.  The total 

CSSilver wire source

[Terry Chamberlin]

I buy my wire from Sausalito Precious Metals, in
Calif.
1-800-262-5367
Good prices

__ 
Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca


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RE: CSCG

[Satchid]

Ok, I made CG now for the first time. I have 2 neon transformer primary
coils in parallel, secondary (high voltage) in series. Then made 2 holes in
a 1/4  plastic plate and inserted 2 gold wires trough them. I bend them to
have approximately 1 mm gap between them. then I connected the High-tension
wires to the gold. filled the (1/2 liter) jar with DW and inserted the gold
wires in the water. about  12 to 15 mm submersed in the water. Then plugged
in and watched a good spark between the electrodes. After about 30 minutes I
stopped the process. there is a good but very thin TE. the solution is still
very clear.

This is only a test setup. I will now work on the electrode arrangement that
was posted earlier.

I have something that bothers me. The spark is generating high powered
electronic noise in the naberhood, this is disturbing for all the nabourers
that are listening to the radio or watching television. Apart from the
disturbance, there are always official people on the road with a special
equipped vehicle to listen in on illegal transmissions. I am afraid that I
am transmitting legally.
Is there something that can be done to limit the radio disturbance?

Satchid
  -Original Message-
  From: rob-bac [mailto:rob...@zonnet.nl]
  Sent: zaterdag 19 januari 2002 16:04
  To: silver-list
  Subject: CSCG


  Thanks Ole-Bob and others, for your comments how to start with CG making.
  Especially the drawing of Ole Bob's elektrode holder I copied on paper and
will study that. Probably next week I will pick up a CG generator from a
friend who bought one from the US, we can use that here with an extra trafo
100-220V. It probably is such an arc CG generator. I will see how the
elektrodes are placed and certainly will follow your advice. Even making the
holder will not be to difficult. Thanks for the help and the offer about the
pyrex tubes. If I'm unable to obtain them here I'll let you know.
  RB

RE: CSCG

[Trem]

Hi Satchid,

The problem with sparking is that it transmits at ALL frequencies at once 
and is not tunable.  That's because arcing is basically a square 
wave.  Square waves are made up of all frequencies.  It will be picked up 
on all bands from LF to AM to FM to TV, etc.  Your best bet is to make a 
Faraday shield around the setup to contain the actual arc transmission and 
to install an RF filter on the AC line to keep interference from leaking 
back into the mains.


Hope this helps.

Trem

At 06:43 PM 1/19/2002 +0100, you wrote:
Ok, I made CG now for the first time. I have 2 neon transformer primary 
coils in parallel, secondary (high voltage) in series. Then made 2 holes 
in a 1/4  plastic plate and inserted 2 gold wires trough them. I bend 
them to have approximately 1 mm gap between them. then I connected the 
High-tension wires to the gold. filled the (1/2 liter) jar with DW and 
inserted the gold wires in the water. about  12 to 15 mm submersed in the 
water. Then plugged in and watched a good spark between the electrodes. 
After about 30 minutes I stopped the process. there is a good but very 
thin TE. the solution is still very clear.


This is only a test setup. I will now work on the electrode arrangement 
that was posted earlier.


I have something that bothers me. The spark is generating high powered 
electronic noise in the naberhood, this is disturbing for all the 
nabourers that are listening to the radio or watching television. Apart 
from the disturbance, there are always official people on the road with a 
special equipped vehicle to listen in on illegal transmissions. I am 
afraid that I am transmitting legally.

Is there something that can be done to limit the radio disturbance?

Satchid
-Original Message-
From: rob-bac [mailto:rob...@zonnet.nl]
Sent: zaterdag 19 januari 2002 16:04
To: silver-list
Subject: CSCG

Thanks Ole-Bob and others, for your comments how to start with CG making.
Especially the drawing of Ole Bob's elektrode holder I copied on paper and 
will study that. Probably next week I will pick up a CG generator from a 
friend who bought one from the US, we can use that here with an extra 
trafo 100-220V. It probably is such an arc CG generator. I will see how 
the elektrodes are placed and certainly will follow your advice. Even 
making the holder will not be to difficult. Thanks for the help and the 
offer about the pyrex tubes. If I'm unable to obtain them here I'll let 
you know.

RB

Re: CSCG

[Marshall Dudley]

Satchid wrote:

 Ok, I made CG now for the first time. I have 2 neon transformer
 primary coils in parallel, secondary (high voltage) in series.


 This will burn up one or both transformers within a day or two.
 Already made that mistake myself when I first started working with
 them.  The secondary is center tapped and attached to the case, which
 suppose to be grounded.  Thus 1/2 of each winding will be totally
 shorted out.  Problem is that even though the transformers are shunt
 protected against shorts, they are made for both windings being
 shorted, and if you only short 1/2 the transformer, the shunt current
 will be twice what it should be on a short, and the windings will burn
 out very quickly.  Lost a $150 brand new one that way when I first
 started.

 Marshall


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CSSimple test: questions: stir vs. bubble

[Connie]

OK, here are the results of the simple test I did last night:

I put 22 ozs. DW into a ball large mouth jar with my 5 gal. acquarium
bubbler.
Hanna reading prior to start =1.5 ppm
I let it bubble for 2 1/2 hrs. Hanna reading =6.3ppm
I simply unplugged the bubbler, loosely placed alum. foil over the opening.
18 hrs. later retested the DW- Hanna reading =8.1ppm

Connie

 From: Grant g...@island.net
 Reply-To: silver-list@eskimo.com
 Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 14:18:25 -0800
 To: silver-list@eskimo.com
 Subject: Re: CSquestions: stir vs. bubble
 Resent-From: silver-list@eskimo.com
 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 14:23:00 -0800
 
 Seems to me a very simple test would indicate if foreign materials are
 being introduced into your c/s by the Bubbler..
 Just take u/s reading on your d/w.
 Then run your bubbler through the water for some time.(Don't Make c/s )
 Take another u/s reading. If readings are the same then you
 can assume that no contamination has taken place.
 Grant..
 
 
 With all due respect Trem:
 I have used stir  with a motor  bubble also no stir at all, and a chop
 stick stir
 by hand.  I to use a laser light and a pwt testerbut what makes me
 assume my
 CS is clean of dust as you believe, is I have three Clean Air Ozone
 generators in
 m
 
 
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 List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
 
 

Re: CSCG

[Wayne Fugitt]

Morning Marshall,

 Ok, I made CG now for the first time. I have 2 neon transformer

 primary coils in parallel, secondary (high voltage) in series.
 This will burn up one or both transformers within a day or two.
 Already made that mistake myself when I first started working with
 them.  The secondary is center tapped and attached to the case, which
 suppose to be grounded.  Thus 1/2 of each winding will be totally
 shorted out.


 Will all of the high voltage transformers have a center tap that is 
grounded in the manner you describe?


Looks like it would short out much quicker than a few days.  A short is bad 
design in any case.


If proper safety precautions were taken, could the system not be run 
ungrounded?   Possibly the internal design of the transformer uses the 
ground and the frame to function with flux lines, ect.


Magnetism and flux lines, and all the internal happening within 
transformers is something that few of us master or understand.


My thoughts are that many devices, including the transformers are a 
compromise in design.  A perfectly designed and built transformer would 
cost many times what the market is willing to bear.


In picking up bits and pieces of this task, it now appears that a 
transformer designed and built just for this application would be in order.


Has anyone tried connecting the output from one transformer into the input 
of another one?  If the transformer materials can stand it, this would be 
one way to gain some voltage from simpler transformers.


Just called an electrical contractor friend. He has a number of these 
transformers he had collected over a few years.
He only carried them to the dump a month or so ago.  So I have to check 
some more sources. One he said, output

20,000 volts.

Wayne









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RE: CSQuestion about saline other stuff

[I Anderson]

Hi Laura,

 -Original Message-
 From: gotoh...@aol.com [mailto:gotoh...@aol.com]
 Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2002 3:54 p.m.
 To: silver-list@eskimo.com
 Subject: CSQuestion about saline  other stuff


 Sorry to be so ignorant, I am definitely not good at
 chemistry, but my
 question re: saline and the concern about sodium chloride, it
 is only if used
 when making the cs, or does it also apply when mixing
 together such as in a
 nasal spray?

Some people put saline in their nasal spray, I don't myself.

Also, my first quart batch of cs I stored in
 amber bottles, the
 color was almost clear. The second batch I put in one of the
 distilled water
 bottles which was opaque, and the color was clearish until
 the next day when
 I had it in my truck for a couple of hours and it got kind of
 warm, but not
 hot. It changed to a grey color. Was that because of the
 container being too
 light, or the warmer temp. or a combination of both, and
 would it still be
 okay to use or should it be discarded?

Could be out gassing from the container affecting the stability of the
CS. There is no reason to expect clear CS with light TE to be affected
by light or heat. I would not use it myself.

Third batch, I put
 some in a clear
 glass, and added a little bit of salt for the chloride test,
 and the cs
 stayed almost the same, just a tiny bit cloudy. What does
 that indicate?

That you have a percentage of silver ions in your CS, it is behaving
as expected.

Next
 question, I am planning to purchase a ppm tester, do the less
 expensive ones
 work okay? (the 25.00 price range). Please forgive my
 ignorance, I want to
 use cs for life, and want to do it right!

You need a conductivity meter which measures in the 00.0 - 99.9 uS
(microseimen) range. A Hanna PWT (pure water tester) or equivalent.


 Laura H.
Regards
Ivan


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RE: CSPolarity Switch Experiment

[I Anderson]

Nice test Steve, thanks.

 What is interesting is that at polarity
 reversal time, the
 voltage rises up and settles back to the pre-switch voltage
 in just a few
 seconds.  Thus one would think the production strength would
 not be affected
 more than 10% or so instead of over 50%.

Well it is not the voltage that indicates the rate of silver
dissolution. The current dip and restoration will be more indicative,
and as Kevin mentioned, some of the energy will used in undoing what
was done in the last cycle, and as he mentioned later, it is likely
that a higher proportion of metallic colloid particles are produced. A
test of total silver content for both runs would be very interesting.

Ivan

 -Original Message-
 From: S  J Young [mailto:you...@konnections.net]
 Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2002 4:38 p.m.
 To: Silver List
 Subject: CSPolarity Switch Experiment


 List,

 I performed the following experiment:

 Case 1 was to make one quart of CS using a constant 1 ma DC
 current for 4
 hours with electrodes spaced about 2 inches and with constant
 stirring.
 Starting V= 173.7 volts, I=0.86 ma, so R = 202K.  Ending V =
 13.8, I=1.18
 ma, so R= 11.7K.  Using Ivan's formala, the PPM was
 1.3*(202/11.7) = 22.4
 PPM.   uS measured 14.5 with Hanna PWT.  At the end there was
 some gunk
 which sluffed off the wires and sunk to the bottom.

 Case 2 is exactly the same as Case 1, except the polarity was
 reversed about
 every 45 seconds.  Start V=168, I=0.96 so R=175K.  End V=30, I=1.16
so
 R=25.9K.  PPM calculates to 8.8 and measured 6.7 uS.  Both
 wires were black,
 but no gunk was produced.

 Both batches have very faint Tyndall effect, visiable only in
 a dark room.
 Case 1 was slightly more visible.  Both were made with
 Wallmart DW which
 measures around 1 uS with the PWT.

 So it is obvious to me that polarity reversing definitely
 produces a weaker
 batch.  Case 1 is (14.5-1)/(6.7-1) = about 2.4 times
 stronger, comparing uS
 measurements.  Or, case 1 is 22.4/8.8= about 2.5 times higher
 PPM using
 Ivan's formula.

 Granted this was not a highly controlled experiment.  One
 quart jar may have
 had a bit more residual silver which had plated out on the
 glass than
 another.  I may not have filled the jars to exactly the same
 level, the 120
 volt line voltage may have been a bit different, etc.  But
 the difference
 (more than a factor of 2) between polarity reversal and not
 is much too
 large to be explained away be sloppy experiment procedures.

 So it appears that one must run their constant current
 generator a bit more
 than twice as long if polarity reversal is used to end up
 with the same PPM
 for no reversal.  What is interesting is that at polarity
 reversal time, the
 voltage rises up and settles back to the pre-switch voltage
 in just a few
 seconds.  Thus one would think the production strength would
 not be affected
 more than 10% or so instead of over 50%.

 So, fellow scientists, why the big drop in uS or PPM when
 polarity switching
 is used?  How about if some of you repeat the experiment to ensure
my
 findings are valid?  I suspect similar results will occur even if
your
 generator is not constant current (e.g. 3 9 volt batteries).

 --Steve


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RE: CSfirst batch

[I Anderson]

Hi Alison, congratulations on your first batch!

It is not always possible to see any reaction at all from the
electrodes, depending upon the generator set-up. But the taste test
should prove whether you have succeeded or not (most unlikely not to
succeed). Also you should notice that one electrode darkens and the
other goes grey, and may have a film build up.

A laser pointer shone through the solution will show a light beam (TE
or Tyndall effect), which is another good indicator, although in some
cases this will be very faint, even in a dark room.

CS will be stable indefinitely or for only a couple of weeks,
depending upon how it was made. When you find black fall-out on the
bottom of your storage container it is probably on the way out.

Regards
Ivan.

 -Original Message-
 From: aliso...@ihug.co.nz [mailto:aliso...@ihug.co.nz]
 Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2002 7:17 p.m.
 To: silver-list@eskimo.com
 Subject: CSfirst batch


 My mother and I made our first batches of CS today. ( I had made
 a trial batch using boiled water last week but only got my distilled
 water yesterday - and Mum had to wait till yesterday for me to get
 the generator that I made for her to her)

 I was very happy with mine - after about 15 mins one rod had
 bubbles rising from it and the other had the finest wisps coming off
 it so I timed it 5 mins from then.  I plan on drinking 40mls a day,
 more if I feel myself coming down with something.

 My mothers batch, even after an hour she could not see wisps
 tho she had the rising bubbles and the tarnished rods.  Can we
 assume that she has made CS?  Yes, she did use distilled water
 at room temperature.  She is 65 and her eyes are not as good as
 they once were.  Maybe there is a possibility that she just didnt
 see the wisps as they were so fine.  I would be grateful for any
 opinion here.  What indication does one get when the batteries are
 going flat?

 Also, what is the shelf life of CS?  I was wondering about putting
 some in a small bottle and keeping it in my handbag for any
 eventuality.  Does anyone else do this?  Is it adviseable?

 Alison
 in New Zealand


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CSTE laser light pens - more questions!

[alisonbm]

Hello again,
thanks to those who responded to my previous questions.  Now I 
have more.

Several people/websites have mentioned using laser light pens to 
view the TE.  Is a laser light pen the same as a laser pointer ? I 
can only find laser pointers on a New Zealand electronics website 
(DSE for the kiwis)  I feel that they are but clarification of this would 
be great.

Can someone please explain to me more clearly as to what I will 
be looking for with the laser?  I have looked at several websites, 
both with  without pictures and I am still unclear as to what I 
should see.  Any help would be much appreciated.

TIA

Alison
in New Zealand


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Re: CSQuestion about saline other stuff

[boberger]

Hi Laura,

DO NOT use salt for ANYTHING
 The nasal spray is made with 90% cs and 10% DMSO.

I suggest that you go to the archives and look up Brooks Bradley and run through
his work with a research lab.

If it is off color on the darck side do not use it.

Ole Bob



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RE: CSCG

[Satchid]

To all on the list.

This is to thank you all for your input to help other people to get some of
their goals fulfilled and others to survive. I thank you all specially for
the help you gave me concerning the making of this CG generator.
Thank you all.

Satchid



-Original Message-
From: Wayne Fugitt [mailto:wa...@fugitt.com]
Sent: zaterdag 19 januari 2002 21:41
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CSCG


Morning Marshall,

  Ok, I made CG now for the first time. I have 2 neon transformer
  primary coils in parallel, secondary (high voltage) in series.
  This will burn up one or both transformers within a day or two.
  Already made that mistake myself when I first started working with
  them.  The secondary is center tapped and attached to the case, which
  suppose to be grounded.  Thus 1/2 of each winding will be totally
  shorted out.

  Will all of the high voltage transformers have a center tap that is
grounded in the manner you describe?

Looks like it would short out much quicker than a few days.  A short is bad
design in any case.

If proper safety precautions were taken, could the system not be run
ungrounded?   Possibly the internal design of the transformer uses the
ground and the frame to function with flux lines, ect.

Magnetism and flux lines, and all the internal happening within
transformers is something that few of us master or understand.

My thoughts are that many devices, including the transformers are a
compromise in design.  A perfectly designed and built transformer would
cost many times what the market is willing to bear.

In picking up bits and pieces of this task, it now appears that a
transformer designed and built just for this application would be in order.

Has anyone tried connecting the output from one transformer into the input
of another one?  If the transformer materials can stand it, this would be
one way to gain some voltage from simpler transformers.

Just called an electrical contractor friend. He has a number of these
transformers he had collected over a few years.
He only carried them to the dump a month or so ago.  So I have to check
some more sources. One he said, output
20,000 volts.

Wayne









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Re: CSquestions: stir vs. bubble

[Gaston]

Ivan, Ole Bob and others,

Thanks for your reply.

I just have completed a DW (distilled water) test this afternoon using a 
bubbler only.
I used approx. 16 oz. of DW and I set it up exactly as normal except
no power applied during that period. (I did not apply the 30V dc that I 
normally use).

I do not use a stone to distribute the air. I have tried a couple of them 
fefore and it did not
work well. Instead, I use a plastic tubing with one of the ends 
blocked and I connect the small jet stream 600 motor output at the other end
of the tubing. Only three small needle holes (to distribute the air) used on 
the tubing that fits
between the two electrodes (at the bottom end of the container).

I ran the bubbler for two hours with a reading of u/S taken every 15 minutes.
My DW at the start was 1.9 and it finished at 3.9 u/S. It went up
from 1.7 to 2.6 in the first 15 minutes...

At the end of the first 1/2 hour it was 3.2 and stayed around there till the 
end with
a 3.9.

I suspect that my container was not 100% clean at the beginning and it
might be the reason why it went up that high during the first half hour.

On the overall, it does not appear to change that much, unless the effect
is different when the voltage is applied, but I do not beleive that it
would be worst.

Gaston
-
- Original Message - 
From: I Anderson i...@win.co.nz
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 3:03 AM
Subject: RE: CSquestions: stir vs. bubble


 Gaston,
 
 I tried bubbling with first with air and then argon. I found in using
 air that I was seeing a definite Tyndall Beam (TE for Alison) with
 many sparkles, which is not acceptable in my product. Argon was
 better, but too expensive, so I only use that as a pressure source for
 my filter (0.2um so that I can claim filter sterilisation). I find a
 slow mechanical or thermal stirring to result in a perfectly clear
 product with no TE. The selection of a very small current density is
 the secret of fine CS, and my small commercial generators use this to
 good effect, generating 15ppm in 500mls in about 2.5 hrs with no
 stirring required (however I do recommend stirring by hand two or
 three times during the run).
 
 But to be honest, I have not compared the actual silver concentration
 vs. conductivity of bubbled and stirred CS, which is why I only
 suggested an increase in conductivity due to CO2 inclusion, which
 never the less I believe to highly likely.
 
 Regards
 Ivan.
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Gaston [mailto:obouc...@colba.net]
  Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2002 2:33 a.m.
  To: *Silver-List* (E-mail)
  Subject: Re: CSquestions: stir vs. bubble
 
 
  Hi Ole Bob
 
  I see the reply from Ivan about CS that will probably read
  higher when using a bubbler instead a stirrer.
 
  Have you had a chance of comparing the two to prove that pls ?
 
  I presume that Ivan has done so.
 
  Gaston
 
  =
  - Original Message -
  From: I Anderson i...@win.co.nz
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com
  Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 3:46 AM
  Subject: RE: CSquestions: stir vs. bubble
 
 
   Connie,
  
   A couple of thoughts come to mind:
  
   The stirrer does not mix too well.
   You are trying for too high a concentration.
   The bubbler introduces CO2 gas to the water, which will ionise and
   give a false (high) reading.
  
   If you are finding a change in the CS when exposed to light
  then it is
   possibly due to the quality of your water.
  
   Regards
   Ivan.
 
 
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RE: CSPolarity Switch Experiment

[Trem]

Hi Ivan,

We had AA testing done on samples from our SG6 which does not have polarity 
reversal and also on our SG7 which does reverse polarity and found both 
units produce about 85% ionic.  Apparently it makes no difference...at 
least in our units.


What now?

Trem


At 10:41 AM 1/20/2002 +1300, you wrote:

Nice test Steve, thanks.

 What is interesting is that at polarity
 reversal time, the
 voltage rises up and settles back to the pre-switch voltage
 in just a few
 seconds.  Thus one would think the production strength would
 not be affected
 more than 10% or so instead of over 50%.

Well it is not the voltage that indicates the rate of silver
dissolution. The current dip and restoration will be more indicative,
and as Kevin mentioned, some of the energy will used in undoing what
was done in the last cycle, and as he mentioned later, it is likely
that a higher proportion of metallic colloid particles are produced. A
test of total silver content for both runs would be very interesting.

Ivan

 -Original Message-
 From: S  J Young [mailto:you...@konnections.net]
 Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2002 4:38 p.m.
 To: Silver List
 Subject: CSPolarity Switch Experiment


 List,

 I performed the following experiment:

 Case 1 was to make one quart of CS using a constant 1 ma DC
 current for 4
 hours with electrodes spaced about 2 inches and with constant
 stirring.
 Starting V= 173.7 volts, I=0.86 ma, so R = 202K.  Ending V =
 13.8, I=1.18
 ma, so R= 11.7K.  Using Ivan's formala, the PPM was
 1.3*(202/11.7) = 22.4
 PPM.   uS measured 14.5 with Hanna PWT.  At the end there was
 some gunk
 which sluffed off the wires and sunk to the bottom.

 Case 2 is exactly the same as Case 1, except the polarity was
 reversed about
 every 45 seconds.  Start V=168, I=0.96 so R=175K.  End V=30, I=1.16
so
 R=25.9K.  PPM calculates to 8.8 and measured 6.7 uS.  Both
 wires were black,
 but no gunk was produced.

 Both batches have very faint Tyndall effect, visiable only in
 a dark room.
 Case 1 was slightly more visible.  Both were made with
 Wallmart DW which
 measures around 1 uS with the PWT.

 So it is obvious to me that polarity reversing definitely
 produces a weaker
 batch.  Case 1 is (14.5-1)/(6.7-1) = about 2.4 times
 stronger, comparing uS
 measurements.  Or, case 1 is 22.4/8.8= about 2.5 times higher
 PPM using
 Ivan's formula.

 Granted this was not a highly controlled experiment.  One
 quart jar may have
 had a bit more residual silver which had plated out on the
 glass than
 another.  I may not have filled the jars to exactly the same
 level, the 120
 volt line voltage may have been a bit different, etc.  But
 the difference
 (more than a factor of 2) between polarity reversal and not
 is much too
 large to be explained away be sloppy experiment procedures.

 So it appears that one must run their constant current
 generator a bit more
 than twice as long if polarity reversal is used to end up
 with the same PPM
 for no reversal.  What is interesting is that at polarity
 reversal time, the
 voltage rises up and settles back to the pre-switch voltage
 in just a few
 seconds.  Thus one would think the production strength would
 not be affected
 more than 10% or so instead of over 50%.

 So, fellow scientists, why the big drop in uS or PPM when
 polarity switching
 is used?  How about if some of you repeat the experiment to ensure
my
 findings are valid?  I suspect similar results will occur even if
your
 generator is not constant current (e.g. 3 9 volt batteries).

 --Steve


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Re: CSTE laser light pens - more questions!

[Trem]

Hi Alison,

You may want to take a look at http://silvergen.com/colloida2.htmIt 
shows Tyndall effect.


Trem

At 11:18 AM 1/20/2002 +1300, you wrote:

Hello again,
thanks to those who responded to my previous questions.  Now I
have more.

Several people/websites have mentioned using laser light pens to
view the TE.  Is a laser light pen the same as a laser pointer ? I
can only find laser pointers on a New Zealand electronics website
(DSE for the kiwis)  I feel that they are but clarification of this would
be great.

Can someone please explain to me more clearly as to what I will
be looking for with the laser?  I have looked at several websites,
both with  without pictures and I am still unclear as to what I
should see.  Any help would be much appreciated.

TIA

Alison
in New Zealand


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Re: CSfirst batch

[boberger]

Hi Alison,

Don't worry about whisps or other subliminate effects.  The better the DW
the longer it take to get CS started.

If you can find an inexpense Digital multimeter put that in the circuit to
measure the cell current. It will be your EYES as to what is going on in
the process.

That way you can more nearly duplicate what you are making.

Ole Bob



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CSDefinitions

[Terry Chamberlin]

Computer Acronyms

PCMCIA - People Can't Memorize Computer Industry
Acronyms
 
BASIC - Bill's Attempt to Seize Industry Control
 
ISDN - It Still Does Nothing
 
APPLE - Arrogance Produces Profit-Losing Entity
 
WWW - World Wide Wait
 
SCSI - System Can't See It
 
DOS - Defunct Operating System
 
IBM - I Blame Microsoft
 
DEC - Do Expect Cuts
 
CD-ROM - Consumer Device, Rendered Obsolete in Months
 
OS/2 - Obsolete Soon, Too
 
MACINTOSH - Most Applications Crash; If Not, The
Operating System
Hangs
 
PENTIUM - Produces Erroneous Numbers Thru Incorrect
Understanding of
Mathematics
 
COBOL - Completely Obsolete Business Oriented Language
 
AMIGA - A Merely Insignificant Game Addiction
 
LISP - Lots of Infuriating  Silly Parentheses
 
MIPS - Meaningless Indication of Processor Speed
 
WINDOWS - Will Install Needless Data On Whole System
 
GIRO - Garbage In Rubbish Out
 
MICROSOFT - Most Intelligent Customers Realize Our
Software Only Fools
Teenagers



__ 
Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca


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CSLearning the lingo list

[Terry Chamberlin]

Here it is:

Internet Abbreviations

AFK - Away from keyboard 
BAK - Back at keyboard 
BBS - Be back soon/shortly 
BG - Big grin 
BRB - Be right back 
BTW - By the way 
CYA - See ya 
CYAL8TR - See ya later (or CUL8R/CUL)  
F2F - Face to face 
FYI - For your information  
G - Grin (smile) 
GA - Go ahead 
GDR - Grinning, ducking, and running 
GFETE - Grinning from ear to ear 
GFI - Go for it 
GMTA - Great minds think alike  
IC - I see 
IMO - In my opinion 
IMHO - In my humble opinion 
IMNSHO - In my not so humble opinion  
IOW - In other words  
IRL - In real life  
LOL - Laughing out loud  
LMAO - Laughing my asterisk off 
LTNS - Long time no see 
LTNT - Long time no talk 
MorF - Male or female 
MYOB - Mind your own business  
NBD - No big deal 
OBTW - Oh by the way 
ODS - Okey Dokey Smokey  
OIC - Oh I see  
OTOH - On the other hand 
POV - Point of view  
ROFL - Rolling on the floor laughing  
ROFLOL - Rolling on the floor laughing out loud  
RSN - Real soon now  
SO - Significant other  
G - Sigh 
SITD - Still in the dark  
SnailMail - The U.S. Postal Service  
TAFN - That's all for now  
TTFN - Ta ta for now  
THX - Thanks (variation: TX, TNX)  
VBG - Very big grin  
WTG - Way to go 
WWW - World Wide Web 
WYSIWYG - What you see is what you get  
YGIAGAM - Your guess is as good as mine  
@@ - eyerolling  
4EVR - Forever
A - American Association Against Acronym Abuse
ADR - Address
AFAIC - As Far As I'm Concerned
AFAIK - As Far As I Know
AFAYC - As Far As You're Concerned
AFK - Away From Keyboard
AISI - As I See It
AKA - Also Known As
ALOL - Actually Laughing Out Loud
AML - All My Love
ANFSCD - And Now For Something Completely Different
ASAP - As Soon As Possible
ASL - Age/Sex/Location
ASLMH - Age/Sex/Location/Music/Hobbies
ATM - At The Moment
AWOL - Absent Without Leave
B/C - Because
B4 - Before
BAK - Back At Keyboard
BBFN - Bye Bye For Now
BBL - Be Back Later
BBS - Be Back Soon
BBSL - Be Back Sooner or Later
BCNU - Be Seeing You
BCOZ - Because
BEOS - Nudge
BFN - Bye For Now
BKA - Better Known As
BRB - Be Right Back
BRT - Be Right There
BTW - By The Way
BUAYA - To Sweet Talk You
CFV - Call For Vote
CU - See You (good bye)
CUL - See You Later
CUL8ER - See You Later
CY - Calm Yourself
CYA - Cover Your Asterix
DH - Dear Hubby (Husband)
DL - Download
DMI - Don't Mention It
DOD - We could tell you but then we'd have to kill
you!
DUCT - Did You See That?
EG - Evil Grin
EL - Evil Laugh
F2F - Face to Face
FAQ - Frequently Asked Questions
FAQL - Frequently Asked Questions List
FAWC - For Anyone Who Cares
FFK - Fong Fei Kei - To Stand You Up
FOAF - Friend Of A Friend
FTASB - Faster Than A Speeding Bullet
FTF - Face To Face
FTL - Faster Than Light
FWIW - For What It's Worth
FYA - For Your Amusement
FYI - For Your Information
GA - Go Ahead
GALGAL - Give A Little Get A Little
GBH - Great Big Hug
GDR - Grinning, Ducking and Running
GG - Good Game
GGN - Gotta Go Now
GL - Good Luck
GMTA - Great Minds Think Alike
GR8 - Great
HIH - Hope It Helps
HTH - Hope This Helps
HUGZ - Hugs
IAE - In Any Event
IANAL - I Am Not A Lawyer
IAT - I am Tired
IC - I See
ICBW - I Could Be Wrong
IDK - I Don't Know
IGTP - I Get The Point
IHNO - I Have No Opinion
IIR - If I Recall
IIRC - If I Recall Correctly
IM - Instant Message
IMAO - In My Arrogant Opinion
IMHO - In My Humble Opinion
IMNSHO - In My Not-So-Humble Opinion
IMO - In My Opinion
INPO - In No Particular Order
IOW - In Other Words
IRL - In Real Life
IYKWIM - If You Know What I Mean
IYKWIMAITYD - If You Know What I Mean And I Think You
Do
JK (or J/K) - Just Kidding
JM2C - Just My 2 Cents
JT - Just Teasing
OK - Okay
KBD - Keyboard
KEWL - Cool
KOTC - Kiss On The Cheek
KOTL - Kiss On The Lips
L8R - Later
LMHO – Laughing my head off
LOL - Laughing Out Loud
LOLA - Laugh Out Loud Again
LOOL - Laughing Outrageously Out Loud
LWR - Launch When Ready
LYLAS - Love You Like a Sister
MOMPL - One Moment Please
MOO - Multi-user Dungeon Object-Oriented
MOTAS - Member Of The Appropriate Sex
MOTOS - Member Of The Opposite Sex
MOTSS - Member Of The Same Sex
MSG - Message
MTBF - Mean Time Between Failure
MTFBWY - May The Force Be With You
MUAK - Smooch
MUD - Multiple User Dungeon
MUSH - Multi User Shared Hallucination
N/A - Not Acceptable
N1 - Nice One
NDA - Non-Disclosure Agreement
NM – Never mind
NP - No Problem
NRN - No Reply Necessary
NTK - Nice To Know
OB- - Obligatory (as a prefix)
OBJOKE - Obligatory Joke
OIC - Oh, I See!
OK - All Correct (I Approve)
OMG - Oh My God
ONNA - Oh No, Not Again
ONNTA - Oh No, Not This Again
OOI - Out Of Interest
OS - Operating System
OTOH - On The Other Hand
OTOOH - On The Other Other Hand
OUSU - Oh, You Shut Up
PD - Public Domain
PDA - Public Display of Affection
PIAK - Slap In The Face
PITA - Pain In The A__
PLS - Please
PM - Personal Message
PMFJI - Pardon Me For Jumping In
PMIGBOM - Put Mind In Gear Before Opening Mouth
PMJI - Pardon My Jumping In
POV - Point of View
PPL - People
PS - Post Script
QL - Quit Laughing!
QS - Quit Scrolling
QT - Cutie
RBAY - Right 

Re: CSLearning the lingo list

[Connie]

Forgot
ROFLMAO-rolling on the floor laughing my a** off   ;o))

 From: Terry Chamberlin tcj...@yahoo.ca
 Reply-To: silver-list@eskimo.com
 Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 18:52:34 -0500 (EST)
 To: silver-list@eskimo.com
 Subject: CSLearning the lingo list
 Resent-From: silver-list@eskimo.com
 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 15:52:38 -0800
 
 Here it is:
 
 Internet Abbreviations
 
 --
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 Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html
 List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
 
 

CSRe[2]: CSCG

[Solar]

Hello Marshall,

Saturday, January 19, 2002, 1:09:05 PM, you wrote:

MD Satchid wrote:

 Ok, I made CG now for the first time. I have 2 neon transformer
 primary coils in parallel, secondary (high voltage) in series.


 This will burn up one or both transformers within a day or two.
 Already made that mistake myself when I first started working with
 them.  The secondary is center tapped and attached to the case, which
 suppose to be grounded.  Thus 1/2 of each winding will be totally
 shorted out.  Problem is that even though the transformers are shunt
 protected against shorts, they are made for both windings being
 shorted, and if you only short 1/2 the transformer, the shunt current
 will be twice what it should be on a short, and the windings will burn
 out very quickly.  Lost a $150 brand new one that way when I first
 started.

 Marshall


Don't ground the case, and keep both transformers electrically
isolated from each other and earth. It shouldn't pose a problem that
way.




-- 
Best regards,
 Solar


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RE: CScolloidal gold.

[I Anderson]

Yes Kevin,

But then why go to the trouble of electrically generating ionic gold
when one can purchase soluble gold chloride.

Chemical reduction of gold chloride by various compounds (tannic acid,
sodium citrate, etc.) as you mention is the traditional way of making
commercial and batch quantities of CG, as used in large amounts by the
bio-chemistry industry. With the ability to regulate a uniform
particle size from about 6nm +, it would seem to be the way to go.

Regards
Ivan.

-Original Message-
From: Kevin Nolan [mailto:ken...@optusnet.com.au]
Sent: Sunday, 20 January 2002 3:19 a.m.
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CScolloidal gold.


Ivan - suppose one used LVDC and an acid solution to produce ionic
gold
solution. Are there not chemical reduction methods that might not
produce an
acceptably fine gold colloid? I imagine rapid stirring may be needed
when
adding, eg, sodium carbonate (just guessing here). Traditional CG has
been
made that way I think. It would certainly avoid some of the
Frankenstein
HVAC requirements, including it seems boiling the water at times
before
completing a run.

regards, Kevin Nolan



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Re: CSPolarity Switch Experiment

[S J Young]

Ivan,

Remember my generator produces a constant current, so the current can't dip
at reversal.  Instead, the voltage goes up to maintain the constant current.
In other words, the solution's apparent conductivity goes down (resistance
goes up) for a few seconds at reversal.  Or, the coatings on the electrodes
behave like semiconductors (partial diodes) for a while until they are
restructured.  I don't have a clue what is happening at the atomic level.
Perhaps the ions just get confused at reversal, wander around haplessly for
a while wondering why they are suddenly going the wrong way on a one-way
street , they get reoriented again??

--Steve

- Original Message -
From: I Anderson i...@win.co.nz
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 2:41 PM
Subject: RE: CSPolarity Switch Experiment


 Nice test Steve, thanks.

  What is interesting is that at polarity
  reversal time, the
  voltage rises up and settles back to the pre-switch voltage
  in just a few
  seconds.  Thus one would think the production strength would
  not be affected
  more than 10% or so instead of over 50%.

 Well it is not the voltage that indicates the rate of silver
 dissolution. The current dip and restoration will be more indicative,
 and as Kevin mentioned, some of the energy will used in undoing what
 was done in the last cycle, and as he mentioned later, it is likely
 that a higher proportion of metallic colloid particles are produced. A
 test of total silver content for both runs would be very interesting.

 Ivan




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Re: CSMagnesium oxide

[Leo Regehr]

I have plenty of magnisium oxide powder on hand. Do I mix it in water for an
enema, and if so, in what proportion?
Leo

Duncan Crow wrote:

 | First Tracy, I suspect Homozon is magnesium oxide, just check the label.

 Homozon is a type of magnesium peroxide, specially prepared to donate
 singlet oxygen. The preparation has not been improved on on over a century.
 You won't get the oxygen-donating effect using magnesium oxide; in fact you
 won't get much of a magnesium-donating effect either; in fact the cleansing
 action results because magnesium in this form is not well absorbed.

 |
 | Magnesium oxide acts a little like the foaming cleansers you spray onto a
 | carpet, which act by lifting some of the dirt to the surface, making it
 | easier to remove. It takes some time for the mag ox to gradually break up
 | your impacted 'muck' which is why there is a lengthy protocol.
 ...| Everyone I know who has completed the mag ox protocol has had good, and
 | sometimes amazing, results. If you remain unconvinced, but still curious,
 | look at the Bernard Jensen book, 'Iridology: Vol 2'. The pictures may just
 | change your mind.

 The effect above using mag oxide will be minimal, VERY minimal.

 Duncan (ozone therapist)

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CSsolving plate-out

[Kevin Nolan]

In silver Digest V 102 #68, Ode Coyoye wrote:

 ... Stir speed: I've found that stirring too fast promotes a build up 
of a fuzzy grey deposit that grows opposite to the direction of the water 
currents.  I believe this to be caused by water pressure keeping the size of 
the hydrogen bubbles so small that their bouyancy won't overcome their adhesion 
to the electrode and silver becomes deposited on the surface tension of the
water/bubble interface. As the hydrogen bubble is stabilized in size by the 
coating, a new bubble forms and also becomes stabilized. Eventually, a 
structure forms on the electrode that falls off into the water as light grey 
chunks. Also, this build up is only semi conductive and slows the process 
[keeping the hydrogen bubbles forming slowly]...sometimes developing a feedback 
loop that just makes the structure bigger and deposits little silver into the 
water.  The upside to a bubble system is that it might knock those hydrogen 
bubbles loose before the structure can grow

Polarity switching is the favoured method for avoiding silver and/or silver 
oxide plate-out on the cathode. Has anyone tried a rapidly spinning cathode; ie 
a rod of stainless or similar attached to the shaft of an electric motor? 
Perhaps the high shear at the liquid-solid interface will prevent plate-out. 
Properly done such an arrangement might kill two birds with one stone - provide 
the stirring and obviate the need for a polarity switching circuit. Mechanical 
complexity is not great - feeding current to the spinning rod via a flexible 
strip would be no great problem. Any thoughts?

Kevin Nolan ken...@optusnet.com.au

Re: CSSimple test: questions: stir vs. bubble

[Marshall Dudley]

A good follow up test would be to heat the water to at or near boiling and let
cool down and retest.  If it is CO2 absorption, the ppm should drop back down.
If it is contamination it should stay high.

Marshall

Connie wrote:

 OK, here are the results of the simple test I did last night:

 I put 22 ozs. DW into a ball large mouth jar with my 5 gal. acquarium
 bubbler.
 Hanna reading prior to start =1.5 ppm
 I let it bubble for 2 1/2 hrs. Hanna reading =6.3ppm
 I simply unplugged the bubbler, loosely placed alum. foil over the opening.
 18 hrs. later retested the DW- Hanna reading =8.1ppm

 Connie

  From: Grant g...@island.net
  Reply-To: silver-list@eskimo.com
  Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 14:18:25 -0800
  To: silver-list@eskimo.com
  Subject: Re: CSquestions: stir vs. bubble
  Resent-From: silver-list@eskimo.com
  Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 14:23:00 -0800
 
  Seems to me a very simple test would indicate if foreign materials are
  being introduced into your c/s by the Bubbler..
  Just take u/s reading on your d/w.
  Then run your bubbler through the water for some time.(Don't Make c/s )
  Take another u/s reading. If readings are the same then you
  can assume that no contamination has taken place.
  Grant..
 
 
  With all due respect Trem:
  I have used stir  with a motor  bubble also no stir at all, and a chop
  stick stir
  by hand.  I to use a laser light and a pwt testerbut what makes me
  assume my
  CS is clean of dust as you believe, is I have three Clean Air Ozone
  generators in
  m
 
 
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Re: CSCG

[Marshall Dudley]

Wayne Fugitt wrote:

 Morning Marshall,

   Ok, I made CG now for the first time. I have 2 neon transformer
   primary coils in parallel, secondary (high voltage) in series.
   This will burn up one or both transformers within a day or two.
   Already made that mistake myself when I first started working with
   them.  The secondary is center tapped and attached to the case, which
   suppose to be grounded.  Thus 1/2 of each winding will be totally
   shorted out.

   Will all of the high voltage transformers have a center tap that is
 grounded in the manner you describe?


All the neon ones I know of do.


 Looks like it would short out much quicker than a few days.  A short is bad
 design in any case.

 If proper safety precautions were taken, could the system not be run
 ungrounded?   Possibly the internal design of the transformer uses the
 ground and the frame to function with flux lines, ect.


No, not really. You could isolate the cases of the two NST's from each other
and ground, and then they would end up 5 or more KV above ground on each case.
The problem is that the insulation on the secondary is made to handle these
voltages, but the insulation of the primary is not.  So instead of burning up a
secondary winding, it will end up arcing over internally between the case that
is on the center tap of the secondary, and the primary which is grounded.  The
result will be a shorted primary.


 Magnetism and flux lines, and all the internal happening within
 transformers is something that few of us master or understand.

 My thoughts are that many devices, including the transformers are a
 compromise in design.  A perfectly designed and built transformer would
 cost many times what the market is willing to bear.

 In picking up bits and pieces of this task, it now appears that a
 transformer designed and built just for this application would be in order.


I find the 15KV NST's to work very well for CS.  Also they should work well for
CS using the underwater arc method.


 Has anyone tried connecting the output from one transformer into the input
 of another one?  If the transformer materials can stand it, this would be
 one way to gain some voltage from simpler transformers.

Transformers are typically designed with only so much margin.  If you double
voltage by running a 120 VAC transformer from the 240 VAC output of a step up
transformer you will run into at least 3 problems. First if the second
transformer is a HV transformer such as a NST, then the secondary will break
down due to the voltages being way over the design limit. Second the leakage
flux of the primary is designed to not saturate the core at 120 will most like
saturate the core at 240, resulting in an extremely high primary current
burning it out.  Third, if neither of these got you, then the dissipation of
the transformer would go up by 4:1 minimum, resulting in heat related failure.



 Just called an electrical contractor friend. He has a number of these
 transformers he had collected over a few years.
 He only carried them to the dump a month or so ago.  So I have to check
 some more sources. One he said, output
 20,000 volts.

Sounds like a good place to start.  Be careful, I have been bit at least 3 or 4
times by mine, the blasted secondary voltage will jump an inch or more to your
hand if nor careful. You don't have to touch it.

Marshall


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Re: CSTE laser light pens - more questions!

[Marshall Dudley]

aliso...@ihug.co.nz wrote:

 Hello again,
 thanks to those who responded to my previous questions.  Now I
 have more.

 Several people/websites have mentioned using laser light pens to
 view the TE.  Is a laser light pen the same as a laser pointer ? I
 can only find laser pointers on a New Zealand electronics website
 (DSE for the kiwis)  I feel that they are but clarification of this would
 be great.

Yes.



 Can someone please explain to me more clearly as to what I will
 be looking for with the laser?  I have looked at several websites,
 both with  without pictures and I am still unclear as to what I
 should see.  Any help would be much appreciated.

This says it with pictures:

http://silver-lightning.com/tyndall/

Marshall


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RE: CSPolarity Switch Experiment

[I Anderson]

Sorry Kevin,

You did indeed say:
...a much higher ratio of true CS to ionic silver for the polarity
switched case. Given your faint tyndal effect observations in both
cases, that possibility seems to be ruled out.
which is the opposite to what I said you said.

Ivan.

 -Original Message-
 From: Kevin Nolan [mailto:ken...@optusnet.com.au]
 Sent: Sunday, 20 January 2002 2:45 p.m.
 To: silver-list@eskimo.com
 Subject: Re: CSPolarity Switch Experiment


 With all respect, Ivan, I think you should read again what I
 actually said.

 regards, Kevin Nolan

 Ivan wrote:
 Well it is not the voltage that indicates the rate of silver
 dissolution. The current dip and restoration will be more
indicative,
 and as Kevin mentioned, some of the energy will used in undoing what
 was done in the last cycle, and as he mentioned later, it is likely
 that a higher proportion of metallic colloid particles are produced.
A
 test of total silver content for both runs would be very
interesting.



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 colloidal silver.

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CSHi, I'm a new member...

[Eric Newsome]

Hello. My name is Shirley. I am here because my son, who has autism has Candida. I am interested in starting him on CS to clear up his Candida. We are trying to chelate the mercury from his body, but everytime we chelate a round, it aggravates his Candida, which makes him aggressive. 

We have tried other ways to kill the Candida with no success. I am interested in buying a CS generator from Synergenesis, Inc. I have read conflicting things all over about CS. I am leaning towards the one from Synergenesis, because a lady from a different forum told me that that is where she got hers. I have read about Argyria and that is the last thing my son needs on top of all of his physical problems. So, I thought this one would be a safe bet. 

Things that I would like to know
1) What are people's thoughts and views on Argyria? Does anyone have it or know of anyone who got it? How did it happen?
2) Does anyone have any advice on how to get started...or do you think that this generator is a good step forward for me.
3) Do you think that it will kill off my son's Candida? How long does that take? What dose?
4) Have you heard of the "stealth virus"? Will CS work on that too? 
5) Anything else that you think I would be interested in, I would love to know...

Thanks :*) --it is great to have found you!
ShirleyGet your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com.


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CSpregnancy

[natural_essentials]

Is there any reason to worry about taking CS during pregnancy?  My
initial thought is no, since it's only suppose to effect single cellular
organisms.

Leacy
Life is Good!


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RE: CSPolarity Switch Experiment

[I Anderson]

Steve,

As I understand the passage of current in aqueous systems.

The passage of current is wholly dependent upon the movement of ions.
As ions have size and weight, they also have inertia and drag and
therefore will lag the application of potential and change in
polarity. Indeed, with the change in polarity the ions must slow down
and reverse their direction, therefore there will be a moment when no
current flows at all, then a build up in current as the ions reach
their terminal velocity. As this occurs for each change in polarity,
the amount of current that flows per unit time is necessarily less for
switching circuits than for non-switching circuits.

I dare say it is not the resistance that changes in your solution
(after all, the number of ions is the same) but rather the current,
and this is the reason you notice a changing voltage.

Regards
Ivan.

 -Original Message-
 From: S  J Young [mailto:you...@konnections.net]
 Sent: Sunday, 20 January 2002 2:16 p.m.
 To: *Silver-List* (E-mail)
 Subject: Re: CSPolarity Switch Experiment


 Ivan,

 Remember my generator produces a constant current, so the
 current can't dip
 at reversal.  Instead, the voltage goes up to maintain the
 constant current.
 In other words, the solution's apparent conductivity goes
 down (resistance
 goes up) for a few seconds at reversal.  Or, the coatings on
 the electrodes
 behave like semiconductors (partial diodes) for a while until they
are
 restructured.  I don't have a clue what is happening at the
 atomic level.
 Perhaps the ions just get confused at reversal, wander around
 haplessly for
 a while wondering why they are suddenly going the wrong way
 on a one-way
 street , they get reoriented again??

 --Steve


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RE: CSPolarity Switch Experiment

[I Anderson]

 -Original Message-
 From: Trem [mailto:t...@silvergen.com]
 Hi Ivan,

 We had AA testing done on samples from our SG6 which does not
 have polarity
 reversal and also on our SG7 which does reverse polarity and
 found both
 units produce about 85% ionic.  Apparently it makes no
 difference...at
 least in our units.

 What now?

 Trem

Well, that sort of destroys that theory, Trem.
What now?
Beats me...

BTW, do you need a longer brewing time switched vs. steady, per unit
concentration?

Ivan.


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RE: CSquestions: stir vs. bubble

[I Anderson]

Connie and Gaston,

Thanks for taking the time to do those tests and post the results.

It is obvious that at least some increase in conductivity is found as
a result of bubbling.
 It could be, as you add silver ions then further CO2 may be
dissolved, but whether it is worth finding out, I don't know.
In any event, we now know a little more than we did before!

Regards
Ivan.


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