Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
## And that data is a good guess for all the reasons I mentioned, derived BY the processes I mentioned. Limited tools, iffy conditions [people], process of elimination and the averages which include allowance for exceptions. Ode Oh, there's plenty wrong with the FDA's requirements, no doubt about it. But the cause is corruption, not ignorance. The double blind cross-controlled study method is definitely a very good way to acquire data, if it is done honestly and without employing ridiculous loopholes (as you pointed out, 100 people x 10 years does not equal 1000 people x 1 year). At this point, it would be great if there were a study following users of CS, since there are so many of us. It wouldn't be terribly hard to do, just define some basic control parameters, find appropriate subjects and medically monitor them. But I suppose Big Pharma is afraid of those results. :) As for fear of regulation, that is really a moot point. What are they going to do, raid our homes and confiscate our generators? Make silver a controlled substance? That'd be awfully hard to do... indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1739 - Release Date: 10/22/2008 7:23 AM
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
indi wrote: On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:48:15 -0400 Marshall Dudley mdud...@king-cart.com wrote: indi wrote: Oh, that's something I did not know. The cone method is what I use, too. Well, that's something else to test for then when I can. Did you know Bob Berger? I've read what I could find of his writing online, it's very interesting. Thanks, indi Only as a member of this list. He was one of the better known experimenters in this group. Marshall -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:49:17 -0700 Malcolm s...@asis.com wrote: Well and good! Mike Monet was an interesting and knowledgeable electrical engineer, with an enquiring mind and good math skills, was sometimes upset when people didn't see it his way (the ONLY way). You are pushing for the opposite, in that you recognize humans, and the conditions in/by which they try to find things out, vary widely. OTOH, The double-blind cross-controlled experimental study as mandated by the FDA and loved by big pharma is just Marvy, except it assumes we're all just the same, or should be if we know what's good for us. At the sledgehammer level, sure. Most of their meds are in the 5 to 500 mg level. Compared to CS at 10 to 20 ppm that is a sledgehammer for sure. Another flaw in their protocols is that they assume testing a thousand people for one year equals testing 100 people for ten years; taint so M'Gee. One of the virtues of the so-called anecdotal method, besides it makes for good stories, is that the evidence - oh, sorry, experience - is collected over much time and many different situations; it's 'small time' and we can hassle it out ourselves. We don't have the deus ex authoritas of political or scientific regulation stifling our chance to find out for ourselves what works and how it best works for us. Each. Take care, avoid arcing! Malcolm Oh, there's plenty wrong with the FDA's requirements, no doubt about it. But the cause is corruption, not ignorance. The double blind cross-controlled study method is definitely a very good way to acquire data, if it is done honestly and without employing ridiculous loopholes (as you pointed out, 100 people x 10 years does not equal 1000 people x 1 year). At this point, it would be great if there were a study following users of CS, since there are so many of us. It wouldn't be terribly hard to do, just define some basic control parameters, find appropriate subjects and medically monitor them. But I suppose Big Pharma is afraid of those results. :) As for fear of regulation, that is really a moot point. What are they going to do, raid our homes and confiscate our generators? Make silver a controlled substance? That'd be awfully hard to do... indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
indi wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:06:47 -0400 Marshall Dudley mdud...@king-cart.com wrote: Any arcing, whether from the HVAC or from lightning, will product nitrous oxide and nitric oxide. The amounts in air are minute from lightning, but can be quite high concentration if produced in arcing with HVAC method. Thus the amount of nitrate produced will be very small if from lightning. Thanks. I thought maybe there was something more exotic and potentially harmful of which I was unaware. Basically then, the danger is just formation of NO2 from oxidation of nitric oxide? Not quite sure what you mean by that. Arcing produces both NO2 (nitrogen dioxide) and NO (nitrogen oxide). When either contact water, they form acids. NO2 forms nitric acid, and NO forms nitrous acid. If silver is present it will produce silver nitrate or silver nitrite. If I'm not mistaken one can taste and smell that, so a person wouldn't be likely to ingest much. Well, first we are talking very low ppm, or even ppb, and I am not sure what the threshold of taste is for the acids. But if it reacts with any silver, then you no longer have the acid, but a silver salt, which has much lower taste, so I am not sure if you could taste it or not. It would be like a couple of gains of salt in a glass of water. Marshall Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
It may not be easy, but it has happened before On Oct 21, 2008, at 9:28 AM, indi wrote: As for fear of regulation, that is really a moot point. What are they going to do, raid our homes and confiscate our generators? Make silver a controlled substance? That'd be awfully hard to do... indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:30:36 -0400 Marshall Dudley mdud...@king-cart.com wrote: Not quite sure what you mean by that. Arcing produces both NO2 (nitrogen dioxide) and NO (nitrogen oxide). When either contact water, they form acids. NO2 forms nitric acid, and NO forms nitrous acid. If silver is present it will produce silver nitrate or silver nitrite. Well, first we are talking very low ppm, or even ppb, and I am not sure what the threshold of taste is for the acids. But if it reacts with any silver, then you no longer have the acid, but a silver salt, which has much lower taste, so I am not sure if you could taste it or not. It would be like a couple of gains of salt in a glass of water. Thanks for the clarification, you raise some good points. Arcing is pretty easy to avoid, though. I used to work a lot on old vacuum tube powered audio circuits (though the max voltage in those was generally 600V or so), so I know a bit about that. indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
Well in the case of Rife, I read that they actually did just that and set fire to the building too! dee indi wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:49:17 -0700 Malcolm s...@asis.com wrote: As for fear of regulation, that is really a moot point. What are they going to do, raid our homes and confiscate our generators? Make silver a controlled substance? That'd be awfully hard to do... indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
indi wrote: On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:30:36 -0400 Marshall Dudley mdud...@king-cart.com wrote: Not quite sure what you mean by that. Arcing produces both NO2 (nitrogen dioxide) and NO (nitrogen oxide). When either contact water, they form acids. NO2 forms nitric acid, and NO forms nitrous acid. If silver is present it will produce silver nitrate or silver nitrite. Well, first we are talking very low ppm, or even ppb, and I am not sure what the threshold of taste is for the acids. But if it reacts with any silver, then you no longer have the acid, but a silver salt, which has much lower taste, so I am not sure if you could taste it or not. It would be like a couple of gains of salt in a glass of water. Thanks for the clarification, you raise some good points. Arcing is pretty easy to avoid, though. I used to work a lot on old vacuum tube powered audio circuits (though the max voltage in those was generally 600V or so), so I know a bit about that. indi Yes it is, but it may not be that simple. Ol Bob reported elevated oxides of nitrogen with the cone method of HVAC generation, without arcing. Probably due to corona discharge, which is a bit more difficult to identify and control. Marshall -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
Hi Indi, I think we're pretty much on the same page; I'd argue that we are indeed conducting that retrospective study, problem is some of us get a bit single-blind in the process. Preaching to the choir. . . . .?? Further, Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. There b'God is an axiom that's stood the test of time. However that is not the same as claiming that every person - or even most within the FDA, or FTC, or other feckless federal alphabetical monster - is corrupt. Hardly moot; ever heard of the Codex Alimentarius?? It's probably easier to declare silver a strategic material than a rose hip or orange juice g Also the case is both corruption AND ignorance; I think someone on this list once posted this quote from a scientific investigator-innovator: First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they attack you. Then they say they already knew it all along. ... raid our homes ... Wouldn't be the first time. Take care, Malcolm On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 10:28 -0400, indi wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:49:17 -0700 Malcolm s...@asis.com wrote: Well and good! We don't have the deus ex authoritas of political or scientific regulation stifling our chance to find out for ourselves what works and how it best works for us. Each. Yet. Oh, there's plenty wrong with the FDA's requirements, no doubt about it. But the cause is corruption, not ignorance. The double blind cross-controlled study method is definitely a very good way to acquire data, if it is done honestly and without employing ridiculous loopholes (as you pointed out, 100 people x 10 years does not equal 1000 people x 1 year). At this point, it would be great if there were a study following users of CS, since there are so many of us. It wouldn't be terribly hard to do, just define some basic control parameters, find appropriate subjects and medically monitor them. But I suppose Big Pharma is afraid of those results. :) As for fear of regulation, that is really a moot point. What are they going to do, raid our homes and confiscate our generators? Make silver a controlled substance? That'd be awfully hard to do... indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:48:15 -0400 Marshall Dudley mdud...@king-cart.com wrote: indi wrote: On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:30:36 -0400 Marshall Dudley mdud...@king-cart.com wrote: Not quite sure what you mean by that. Arcing produces both NO2 (nitrogen dioxide) and NO (nitrogen oxide). When either contact water, they form acids. NO2 forms nitric acid, and NO forms nitrous acid. If silver is present it will produce silver nitrate or silver nitrite. Well, first we are talking very low ppm, or even ppb, and I am not sure what the threshold of taste is for the acids. But if it reacts with any silver, then you no longer have the acid, but a silver salt, which has much lower taste, so I am not sure if you could taste it or not. It would be like a couple of gains of salt in a glass of water. Thanks for the clarification, you raise some good points. Arcing is pretty easy to avoid, though. I used to work a lot on old vacuum tube powered audio circuits (though the max voltage in those was generally 600V or so), so I know a bit about that. indi Yes it is, but it may not be that simple. Ol Bob reported elevated oxides of nitrogen with the cone method of HVAC generation, without arcing. Probably due to corona discharge, which is a bit more difficult to identify and control. Marshall Oh, that's something I did not know. The cone method is what I use, too. Well, that's something else to test for then when I can. Did you know Bob Berger? I've read what I could find of his writing online, it's very interesting. Thanks, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
I wrote: Next, if you leave the lid off you no longer have a closed system. Distilled water (and your CS), will absorb carbon dioxide from the air and form (I think it is...) carbolic acid. Indi replies: Yes well, the idea that we actually make containers which contain only H2O and silver is a misconception, as you yourself have just pointed out. Yes, but your contention that we cannot achieve any kind of effective air-tight seal is quite misconcieved as well. I've seen plastic pop bottles filled with water on a warm day in the fall and left in the trunk of a car over an entire winter, collapse as the weather got cold, *stay* that way for months even as they underwent numerous freeze-thaw cycles, and return to their original volume the first equally warm day in the spring. I've personally sampled home-canned fruit that was at least 20 years old and still well-sealed and safely edible. I've also designed, built and operated vacuum equipment with everything from O-ring seals and rough pumps to cryo-pumped ultra-high-vacuum systems with conflat flanges. I'm aware that there are detectable leak rates across various sealing materials and diffusion of hydrogen and helium through metals and glass. All of my experiences back up Ken's off-the-cuff report: Although it's theoretically possible, in fact inevitable, that some exchange of gas molecules between the interior and exterior of a filled container will take place, at near-atmospheric pressures and for all practical purposes the amounts are NOT significant as long as the seals are functioning as they're designed. If you are concerned about effects down in the 10^-12 range, don't bother. They are not meaningful in this discussion. Nothing we do here is that precise, nor does it need to be. As I said, without proper chemical analysis one cannot be sure of the exact content, and it is exceedingly unlikely that what we make to start with is pure H2O and silver only, or that the solution stored in simple jars will remain unchanged for very long. Once whatever dissolved gases included in the closed container have finished doing whatever they're going to do over the first few days, long term changes appear to be minimal, based on more reports than just Ken's. Given how sensitive electrical conductivity happens to be to even slight changes in conditions or composition, getting two readings even roughly the same months apart is a pretty strong indicator that things haven't changed significantly. In our experience, that's the nature of the beast when you're talking about conductivity. While the exact value of your readings may not be all that close to some theoretical ideal measurement, comparative readings are in fact pretty sensitive to changes. That is my point, and I certainly cannot yield it, I'd be lying. Well, you're welcome to your position, but in the absence of actual experiences contradicting the rest of us, I'll take a wait-and-see attitude on your assertions, okay? grin Anyway, thanks for pointing out my misstatements. I will be more careful about that in the future. Not sure if you read the whole discussion though, as there was a lot of email I never got the last couple of days and I have no way of knowing if all the email I sent got through. I think it was Comcast's fault, but am not sure... As near as I can tell from here, all your posts made it through, including the one you re-sent when you didn't see it. (Which is understandable given the circumstances.) Three people have now reported to me that COMCAST has once again been intermittently blocking messages from the list server. Be well, Mike D. [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian] [mdev...@eskimo.com] [Speaking only for myself... ] -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 00:09:32 -0400 Starshar stars...@comcast.net wrote: Anyway, thanks for pointing out my misstatements. I will be more careful about that in the future. Not sure if you read the whole discussion though, as there was a lot of email I never got the last couple of days and I have no way of knowing if all the email I sent got through. I think it was Comcast's fault, but am not sure... Cheers, indi I KNEW it-*^%*@ /Comcast WAS acting up again! I went about 36 hours with no email from this list, and probably other sources as well, judging by far lower email volume. Yes, Indi, I think you are pointing the finger in exactly the right direction. I'm glad to see this confirmation of my suspicions! Sharon I switched to using Gmail yesterday, they also host email for a domain I own. So far my experience with them has been quite positive. I have come to truly despise comcast. It's great when it's actually working is the best I can say of it. indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
M. G. Devour wrote: Next, if you leave the lid off you no longer have a closed system. Distilled water (and your CS), will absorb carbon dioxide from the air and form (I think it is...) carbolic acid. Carbonic acid. Then the ionic silver reacts with that and produces silver carbonate. If there happens to be a lightning storm around, then there will be oxides of nitrogen in the air that get absorbed as well, producing silver nitrate. Marshall -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 07:49:16 -5 M. G. Devour mdev...@eskimo.com wrote: I wrote: Next, if you leave the lid off you no longer have a closed system. Distilled water (and your CS), will absorb carbon dioxide from the air and form (I think it is...) carbolic acid. Indi replies: Yes well, the idea that we actually make containers which contain only H2O and silver is a misconception, as you yourself have just pointed out. Yes, but your contention that we cannot achieve any kind of effective air-tight seal is quite misconcieved as well. I've seen plastic pop bottles filled with water on a warm day in the fall and left in the trunk of a car over an entire winter, collapse as the weather got cold, *stay* that way for months even as they underwent numerous freeze-thaw cycles, and return to their original volume the first equally warm day in the spring. I've personally sampled home-canned fruit that was at least 20 years old and still well-sealed and safely edible. I've also designed, built and operated vacuum equipment with everything from O-ring seals and rough pumps to cryo-pumped ultra-high-vacuum systems with conflat flanges. I'm aware that there are detectable leak rates across various sealing materials and diffusion of hydrogen and helium through metals and glass. All of my experiences back up Ken's off-the-cuff report: Although it's theoretically possible, in fact inevitable, that some exchange of gas molecules between the interior and exterior of a filled container will take place, at near-atmospheric pressures and for all practical purposes the amounts are NOT significant as long as the seals are functioning as they're designed. If you are concerned about effects down in the 10^-12 range, don't bother. They are not meaningful in this discussion. Nothing we do here is that precise, nor does it need to be. As I said, without proper chemical analysis one cannot be sure of the exact content, and it is exceedingly unlikely that what we make to start with is pure H2O and silver only, or that the solution stored in simple jars will remain unchanged for very long. Once whatever dissolved gases included in the closed container have finished doing whatever they're going to do over the first few days, long term changes appear to be minimal, based on more reports than just Ken's. Given how sensitive electrical conductivity happens to be to even slight changes in conditions or composition, getting two readings even roughly the same months apart is a pretty strong indicator that things haven't changed significantly. In our experience, that's the nature of the beast when you're talking about conductivity. While the exact value of your readings may not be all that close to some theoretical ideal measurement, comparative readings are in fact pretty sensitive to changes. That is my point, and I certainly cannot yield it, I'd be lying. Well, you're welcome to your position, but in the absence of actual experiences contradicting the rest of us, I'll take a wait-and-see attitude on your assertions, okay? grin That's fine, but I think you may have misunderstood the nature of the discussion. I am aware that to some it may have looked like I was picking on Ode (Is Ode whom you call Ken, or did I misidentify someone? I'm a bit confused about that now), but in fact there was an insistence that I accept unproven conclusions based on rudimentary observation as fact, followed by a stream of defensive argument largely based on misconceptions. I don't like to argue very much actually, but I was compelled to do so due to certain ideas (which I will not mention, wishing to be done with it) being presented as facts. I'd have been happy to let it go days ago, personally, and I think If all my emails did get through that is apparent. In short, I don't feel I was the one pushing anything, I just cannot be forced to agree with things I know are unlikely to be true. Anyway, I see you are trying to establish a neutral middle ground, and I appreciate that. You're a good moderator. Anyway, thanks for pointing out my misstatements. I will be more careful about that in the future. Not sure if you read the whole discussion though, as there was a lot of email I never got the last couple of days and I have no way of knowing if all the email I sent got through. I think it was Comcast's fault, but am not sure... As near as I can tell from here, all your posts made it through, including the one you re-sent when you didn't see it. (Which is understandable given the circumstances.) Three people have now reported to me that COMCAST has once again been intermittently blocking messages from the list server. Surely there is a special place in hell for comcast executives... Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at:
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:46:30 -0400 Marshall Dudley mdud...@king-cart.com wrote: Carbonic acid. Then the ionic silver reacts with that and produces silver carbonate. If there happens to be a lightning storm around, then there will be oxides of nitrogen in the air that get absorbed as well, producing silver nitrate. I have seen some vague references to dangerous nitrogen compounds being a risk of the HVAC method, but this was on vendors' sites. Do you know anything more specific about that? TIA, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
indi wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:46:30 -0400 Marshall Dudley mdud...@king-cart.com wrote: Carbonic acid. Then the ionic silver reacts with that and produces silver carbonate. If there happens to be a lightning storm around, then there will be oxides of nitrogen in the air that get absorbed as well, producing silver nitrate. Any arcing, whether from the HVAC or from lightning, will product nitrous oxide and nitric oxide. The amounts in air are minute from lightning, but can be quite high concentration if produced in arcing with HVAC method. Thus the amount of nitrate produced will be very small if from lightning. Marshall I have seen some vague references to dangerous nitrogen compounds being a risk of the HVAC method, but this was on vendors' sites. Do you know anything more specific about that? TIA, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:06:47 -0400 Marshall Dudley mdud...@king-cart.com wrote: Any arcing, whether from the HVAC or from lightning, will product nitrous oxide and nitric oxide. The amounts in air are minute from lightning, but can be quite high concentration if produced in arcing with HVAC method. Thus the amount of nitrate produced will be very small if from lightning. Thanks. I thought maybe there was something more exotic and potentially harmful of which I was unaware. Basically then, the danger is just formation of NO2 from oxidation of nitric oxide? If I'm not mistaken one can taste and smell that, so a person wouldn't be likely to ingest much. Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
One of the high voltage methods used involved an arc being drawn just above the water surface by one of the electrodes. This was found to result in nitric acid being formed. Not really a good thing to ingest regularly. Good design alleviated this. One way was to use a CO2 blanket in the container. There are other ways, too. Chuck Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious animal on earth On 10/20/2008 12:58:00 PM, indi (indi.sha...@gmail.com) wrote: I have seen some vague references to dangerous nitrogen compounds being a risk of the HVAC method, but this was on vendors' sites. Do you know anything more specific about that? TIA, indi No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1735 - Release Date: 10/20/2008 2:52 PM
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
Thanks. I imagine it'd be hard to ingest much of that without knowing something wasn't quite right. Anyway, I am careful to avoid arcing. BTW, I am a woman named Indulekha Sharpe, not some guy named Mike Monet. Cheers, indi On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:02:38 -0400 cking...@nycap.rr.com wrote: One of the high voltage methods used involved an arc being drawn just above the water surface by one of the electrodes. This was found to result in nitric acid being formed. Not really a good thing to ingest regularly. Good design alleviated this. One way was to use a CO2 blanket in the container. There are other ways, too. Chuck Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious animal on earth On 10/20/2008 12:58:00 PM, indi (indi.sha...@gmail.com) wrote: I have seen some vague references to dangerous nitrogen compounds being a risk of the HVAC method, but this was on vendors' sites. Do you know anything more specific about that? TIA, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
Cool, interesting first name. For all I know, Mike's a female too. You would have liked discussions with him/her. Chuck Peace through superior firepower On 10/20/2008 7:36:29 PM, indi (indi.sha...@gmail.com) wrote: BTW, I am a woman named Indulekha Sharpe, not some guy named Mike Monet. Cheers, indi No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1735 - Release Date: 10/20/2008 2:52 PM
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
Well and good! Mike Monet was an interesting and knowledgeable electrical engineer, with an enquiring mind and good math skills, was sometimes upset when people didn't see it his way (the ONLY way). You are pushing for the opposite, in that you recognize humans, and the conditions in/by which they try to find things out, vary widely. OTOH, The double-blind cross-controlled experimental study as mandated by the FDA and loved by big pharma is just Marvy, except it assumes we're all just the same, or should be if we know what's good for us. At the sledgehammer level, sure. Most of their meds are in the 5 to 500 mg level. Compared to CS at 10 to 20 ppm that is a sledgehammer for sure. Another flaw in their protocols is that they assume testing a thousand people for one year equals testing 100 people for ten years; taint so M'Gee. One of the virtues of the so-called anecdotal method, besides it makes for good stories, is that the evidence - oh, sorry, experience - is collected over much time and many different situations; it's 'small time' and we can hassle it out ourselves. We don't have the deus ex authoritas of political or scientific regulation stifling our chance to find out for ourselves what works and how it best works for us. Each. Take care, avoid arcing! Malcolm On Mon, 2008-10-20 at 19:36 -0400, indi wrote: Thanks. I imagine it'd be hard to ingest much of that without knowing something wasn't quite right. Anyway, I am careful to avoid arcing. BTW, I am a woman named Indulekha Sharpe, not some guy named Mike Monet. Cheers, indi Chuck Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious animal on earth RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
Hi group, Indi, Ken, The current debate (happily, I can still use that word to describe the discussion; thank you for staying civil, guys...) about alleged absolute statements and proof seems to have originated in a few sentences posted days ago in the blue moons revisited thread: Indi wrote: Typically, if you have real CS (i.e. *not* ionic silver) there will be a small amount of ionic silver. This can be mostly eliminated by exposure to sunlight though. To which Ken replied: How would this be so? I've left ionic silver on a sunny window sill for as long as 5 years and it was still ionic and unchanged. This was met with Indi's request for methodology (Ken: Tyndal and EC) and a lengthy discussion of why this isn't good enough, standards of evidence and proof and criticisms of alleged absolute statements and their effects on the CS community's credibility. After reading far too many posts, I saw the following which I think is quite significant: Indi wrote: I mentioned getting rid of ions by allowing solution to sit in the sun. I also never claimed to have verified this with instrumentation, just pointed out that according to what I know, that should do it (I leave the lid off for speedier results, in case you were wondering). Ions are unstable; it doesn't matter which element we're discussing. They will react with other compounds at their first opportunity. So yes, I am assuming my method to be sufficient. But, I don't think I ever claimed otherwise. So, let me see if I've got this right, Indi? Earlier you made the absolute statement that: This can be mostly eliminated by exposure to sunlight though. You didn't say I believe that... or This might be mostly eliminated... You just made the unqualified statement. Saying This can be... seems to be prescriptive, as if you know that exposure to sunlight will (mostly) eliminate the ionic portion. Yet you now say that you have not veified this with instrumentation and that according to what I know, that should do it? Beyond this admission you also mention that you leave the lid off for speedier results. This all raises a couple of issues. First off, what results are you even talking about? If you're not doing measurements, how do you support this assertion of yours that you're eliminating the ionic portion from your real CS? Next, if you leave the lid off you no longer have a closed system. Distilled water (and your CS), will absorb carbon dioxide from the air and form (I think it is...) carbolic acid. This process is easily detected by the rise in conductivity you can measure in DW in an open container over a period of hours or days. This changes the pH, adds another ion to the mix, and basically all bets are off. Of course, detailed elemental analysis will be needed to confirm the species present, but this work has been done elsewhere and ought to be readily available in the literature if you have any doubts that it happens. So I guess I have to turn this around on you, Indi. Instead of criticizing Ken for not properly qualifying and detailing the basis for all his observations of experiments he's actually *done,* why not answer his question, instead? Ken wrote: How would this be so? If you've no answer better than according to what I know, that should do it, I suggest you yield the point. More to follow in another message... Be well, Mike Devour silver-list owner [Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian] [mdev...@eskimo.com] [Speaking only for myself... ] -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:07:24 -5 M. G. Devour mdev...@eskimo.com wrote: Hi group, Indi, Ken, The current debate (happily, I can still use that word to describe the discussion; thank you for staying civil, guys...) about alleged absolute statements and proof seems to have originated in a few sentences posted days ago in the blue moons revisited thread: Indi wrote: Typically, if you have real CS (i.e. *not* ionic silver) there will be a small amount of ionic silver. This can be mostly eliminated by exposure to sunlight though. To which Ken replied: How would this be so? I've left ionic silver on a sunny window sill for as long as 5 years and it was still ionic and unchanged. This was met with Indi's request for methodology (Ken: Tyndal and EC) and a lengthy discussion of why this isn't good enough, standards of evidence and proof and criticisms of alleged absolute statements and their effects on the CS community's credibility. After reading far too many posts, I saw the following which I think is quite significant: Indi wrote: I mentioned getting rid of ions by allowing solution to sit in the sun. I also never claimed to have verified this with instrumentation, just pointed out that according to what I know, that should do it (I leave the lid off for speedier results, in case you were wondering). Ions are unstable; it doesn't matter which element we're discussing. They will react with other compounds at their first opportunity. So yes, I am assuming my method to be sufficient. But, I don't think I ever claimed otherwise. So, let me see if I've got this right, Indi? Earlier you made the absolute statement that: This can be mostly eliminated by exposure to sunlight though. You didn't say I believe that... or This might be mostly eliminated... You just made the unqualified statement. Saying This can be... seems to be prescriptive, as if you know that exposure to sunlight will (mostly) eliminate the ionic portion. Yet you now say that you have not veified this with instrumentation and that according to what I know, that should do it? Yes you are correct on that, I should have said I believe, or according to what I've learned, something to qualify that statement. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Beyond this admission you also mention that you leave the lid off for speedier results. This all raises a couple of issues. First off, what results are you even talking about? If you're not doing measurements, how do you support this assertion of yours that you're eliminating the ionic portion from your real CS? Correct, I should have said, according to what I have learned, exposing the solution to direct sunlight and leaving it uncovered should drastically reduce the ionic content. Next, if you leave the lid off you no longer have a closed system. Distilled water (and your CS), will absorb carbon dioxide from the air and form (I think it is...) carbolic acid. This process is easily detected by the rise in conductivity you can measure in DW in an open container over a period of hours or days. This changes the pH, adds another ion to the mix, and basically all bets are off. Yes well, the idea that we actually make containers which contain only H2O and silver is a misconception, as you yourself have just pointed out. Of course, detailed elemental analysis will be needed to confirm the species present, but this work has been done elsewhere and ought to be readily available in the literature if you have any doubts that it happens. So I guess I have to turn this around on you, Indi. Instead of criticizing Ken for not properly qualifying and detailing the basis for all his observations of experiments he's actually *done,* why not answer his question, instead? Ken wrote: How would this be so? If you've no answer better than according to what I know, that should do it, I suggest you yield the point. As I said, without proper chemical analysis one cannot be sure of the exact content, and it is exceedingly unlikely that what we make to start with is pure H2O and silver only, or that the solution stored in simple jars will remain unchanged for very long. That is my point, and I certainly cannot yield it, I'd be lying. Anyway, thanks for pointing out my misstatements. I will be more careful about that in the future. Not sure if you read the whole discussion though, as there was a lot of email I never got the last couple of days and I have no way of knowing if all the email I sent got through. I think it was Comcast's fault, but am not sure... Cheers, indi -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are
Re: CS[List Owner] Standards of proof...
Anyway, thanks for pointing out my misstatements. I will be more careful about that in the future. Not sure if you read the whole discussion though, as there was a lot of email I never got the last couple of days and I have no way of knowing if all the email I sent got through. I think it was Comcast's fault, but am not sure... Cheers, indi I KNEW it-*^%*@ /Comcast WAS acting up again! I went about 36 hours with no email from this list, and probably other sources as well, judging by far lower email volume. Yes, Indi, I think you are pointing the finger in exactly the right direction. I'm glad to see this confirmation of my suspicions! Sharon -- The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Address Off-Topic messages to: silver-off-topic-l...@eskimo.com The Silver List and Off Topic List archives are currently down... List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@eskimo.com
