RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
With one of those Piccilario altimeters?? :-) We really need to test our altitude measuring devices somehow. I am not doubting the good eyes, I have see Johnny B. tow too very high altitudes, but a Pegasus at 4000' agl is invisible. I will gladly stand corrected if someone can prove or verify these kinds of altitude claims. Maybe we should put a pic, a Sky melody, an Eagle Tree system, and a Casio watch in one plane and see what we get for grins. I will loan the Sky melody/sky panel. I calibrated mine last year. It is accurate to 3-10 feet in 1000' altitude gain. Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Dennis Hoyle WMSS Sec / Treasurer / Web Geek Last August Troy Lawicki flew his 2M Duck to 4077' feet at the 2M MOM contest. That guy has got eagle eyes. Whipped my measly 3604' with my Sapphire -Original Message- From: Johnny Berlin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 8:52 PM To: Mark Wales; soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject 3999 ft. 2004 Nats cross contry scale..Pegasus tow plane Johnny RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
Glad to se the list alive again, with regards to full scale sighting models it has been my experience talking to full scale glider pilots that they will indeed see a large scale ship circling with them and think that it is another aircraft, but they will also think it is 3 times farther away if it is a 1/3 scale. We need to get out of the way. JD Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Martin Usher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:21 AM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider If you are not flying in the area of full size traffic and the risk of that happening is low, I would not lose a lot of sleep over this. (Bill Malvey) If you are out in the sticks flying one of those big scale ships you're going to look just like any other traffic to a passing plane. They should just steer out of your way (like they're supposed to do for gliders, I believe) and not give you another thought. I notice that aviation charts are marked with areas where you're likely to find sailplanes, ultralights, skydivers and so on. It doesn't seem to reserve these areas (that is, you're going to find the noted activity there and only there) but its just a warning to the user to watch for this activity. We should claim a piece of that pie, we're legitimate users of airspace too -- we've just got to get people to stop thinking of modelling as something you do with sticks of balsa, tissue and rubber bands. Martin Usher Incidentally, returning to the original subject of this thread, this site first popped some time ago, it even got its own thread in RCSE. They're Canadians, they seem to know what they're doing and it looks like a fun project for them. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
I was there, its true, as I heard the Altimeter (Picolario) report back ! It was a good weekend for the New Nats Schedule. IMOHO --Jack Strother Granger, IN LSF 2948 LSF Level V #117 LSF Official 1996 - 2004 CSS Gold -- Original message -- On 1/17/05 17:51 Johnny Berlin wrote:3999 ft. 2004 Nats cross contry scale.. Pegasus tow plane I wish I had your eyes. Assuming no slant range on the plane, that is like looking at a 1/4-inch line from 10 feet away. And that would be the wingspan!! ~~~ Bill Malvey RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
In a message dated 1/18/2005 6:14:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am not doubting the good eyes, I have see Johnny B. tow too very highaltitudes, but a Pegasus at 4000' agl is invisible. I will gladly standcorrected if someone can prove or verify these kinds of altitude claims.Maybe we should put a pic, a Sky melody, an Eagle Tree system, and aCasio watch in one plane and see what we get for grins.I will loan the Sky melody/sky panel. I calibrated mine last year. It isaccurate to 3-10 feet in 1000' altitude gain. A barometric altimeter will not be accurate to within 3-10 feet in 1000. This is a 0.3% to 1.0% error. The error in an electronic barometric altimeter comes from 3 sources; the ability of the altimeter to correctlysense the atmospheric pressure, the accuracy of theatmospheric model thatis used to convert pressure to altitude, and the deviation of the atmosphere from the standards set in the model, primarily temperature. The first source of error, the accuracy of the altimeter's pressure sensing, is what can be calibrated. Even so, it is difficult to get the unit to hold an accuracy of less than 0.5% over a period of time. The second source of error, the atmospheric model, is based on an ideal version of the atmosphere where the temperature at sea level is 15C, the pressure is 29.92, and the temperature decreases with altitude at a rate of about 1.98C per 1000 feet. Any deviation from these ideal conditions will introduce an error into the altitude reading. Even under these ideal conditions, the model is still a model, it is not exact. The third source of error is probably the greatest one, and that is a deviation in temperature from the ideal atmospheric model. Full scale pilots know that when it's cold outside, a barometric altimeter will read high. Conversely, if it's hot out, an altimeter will read low. Fortunately, over the temperature range that we typically fly our models at, the effect is not that great, but you can see errors of over 5%if flying near freezing or 100F and not compensating for temperature. We've done a lot of testing and have found that typically, after temperature compensation, our altimeters will read within about 2% of actual altitude. The majority of the error we see comes from non-ideal atmospheric conditions, not the altimeters themselves. Thanks, Randy Brust Soaring Circuits
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
First, I want to admit that I just stepped onto this thread. Now, for my $.02 worth.. First, and formost, I believe that we as modelers, are supposed to fly in areas where we don't expect to find full size aircraft (including gliders). I read this to mean that we don't fly near airports, and we fly below the altitude of full size aircraft in other areas. Second, we don't need to make a lot of noise about flying with other gliders in thermals. The very last thing we need is attention from FAA or worst case, the NTSB! .bcAG4YQ Williamsburg, VA On Mon, 17 Jan 2005, Martin Usher wrote: If you are not flying in the area of full size traffic and the risk of that happening is low, I would not lose a lot of sleep over this. (Bill Malvey) If you are out in the sticks flying one of those big scale ships you're going to look just like any other traffic to a passing plane. They should just steer out of your way (like they're supposed to do for gliders, I believe) and not give you another thought. I notice that aviation charts are marked with areas where you're likely to find sailplanes, ultralights, skydivers and so on. It doesn't seem to reserve these areas (that is, you're going to find the noted activity there and only there) but its just a warning to the user to watch for this activity. We should claim a piece of that pie, we're legitimate users of airspace too -- we've just got to get people to stop thinking of modelling as something you do with sticks of balsa, tissue and rubber bands. Martin Usher Incidentally, returning to the original subject of this thread, this site first popped some time ago, it even got its own thread in RCSE. They're Canadians, they seem to know what they're doing and it looks like a fun project for them. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
Anyone know the ground elevation in this area? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was there, its true, as I heard the Altimeter (Picolario) report back ! It was a good weekend for the New Nats Schedule. IMOHO -- Jack Strother Granger, IN LSF 2948 LSF Level V #117 LSF Official 1996 - 2004 CSS Gold -- Original message -- On 1/17/05 17:51 Johnny Berlin wrote: 3999 ft. 2004 Nats cross contry scale.. Pegasus tow plane I wish I had your eyes. Assuming no slant range on the plane, that is like looking at a 1/4-inch line from 10 feet away. And that would be the wingspan!! ~~~ Bill Malvey RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
[EMAIL PROTECTED] on 1-18-05 7:20 AM wrote: The first source of error, the accuracy of the altimeter's pressure sensing, is what can be calibrated. [...] The second source of error, the atmospheric model, [...] The third source of error is probably the greatest one, and that is a deviation in temperature from the ideal atmospheric model. [...] [...] The majority of the error we see comes from non-ideal atmospheric conditions, not the altimeters themselves. Randy Brust Soaring Circuits Randy and others, What are the error/accuracy/precision rates of a GPS system and how do they compare to the pressure sensing systems? And of course, how does the cost of a GPS based altimeter system compare. -- Jim Holliman -- Tulsa, Oklahoma AMA TULSOAR RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
The Picolario calibrates itself to ground level, and all altitudes reported are relative to where it was switched on. Anker At 08:47 AM 1/18/2005, Ben Diss wrote: Anyone know the ground elevation in this area? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was there, its true, as I heard the Altimeter (Picolario) report back ! It was a good weekend for the New Nats Schedule. IMOHO -- Jack Strother Granger, IN LSF 2948 LSF Level V #117 LSF Official 1996 - 2004 CSS Gold -- Original message -- On 1/17/05 17:51 Johnny Berlin wrote: 3999 ft. 2004 Nats cross contry scale.. Pegasus tow plane I wish I had your eyes. Assuming no slant range on the plane, that is like looking at a 1/4-inch line from 10 feet away. And that would be the wingspan!! ~~~ Bill Malvey RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format Anker Berg-Sonne [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
Standard GPS error (drift) can be as high as 16 meters due to the geometry of the constellation and path link errors in the atmosphere. The new WAAS enabled GPS receivers are supposed to be accurate within 3 meters 90% of the time. They use a ground based reference signal to give a more accurate positioning fix. Unlike the old DGPS, all you need is a WAAS enabled receiver to be able to get that accuracy. A neat test to do is take a non-WAAS enabled GPS and zoom in as far as you can on your position. You can actually watch the fix wander around your position as the fix drifts. There a several inexpensive GPS receivers out there that can be put in an RC aircraft to measure altitude and position. The Foretrex 201is very light, compact, and is WAAS enabled. There have been several posts on the list about using them and software that can be used to plot your flight when you land. Cool Stuff. Happy flying, Jim www.jtmodels.com What are the error/accuracy/precision rates of a GPS system and how do they compare to the pressure sensing systems? And of course, how does the cost of a GPS based altimeter system compare. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
AGL ?? On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:42:32 -0700, Howard Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh... from a winch? 7,717 feet. July 31 2004. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
Yes 7,717 feet AGL -- about 13,000 feet above sea level (Boulder, Co is about 5300') -Original Message- From: jon stone [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 9:31 AM To: Howard Mark Cc: soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject AGL ?? On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:42:32 -0700, Howard Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh... from a winch? 7,717 feet. July 31 2004. This message is intended only for the use of the Addressee and may contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please erase all copies of the message and its attachments and notify Space Imaging immediately. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
On Tue, Jan 18, 2005 at 06:13:27AM -0500, John Derstine wrote: | With one of those Piccilario altimeters?? :-) We really need to test our | altitude measuring devices somehow. If you feel that your altimeter is grossly innaccurate, it's easy enough to test by just driving around with it and a GPS in your car, assuming that you've got some hills to drive on. The precision of the GPS, even with WAAS, is likely to be lower than that of your altimeter, but it should give you a good idea. This doesn't take into account temperature variations at altitude, but should give you a good general idea of how accurate the device is, especially if you can do something like drive up a 2000' hill. If you can get on the roof of a tall building and compare the readings to that on the ground, that'll work too. -- Doug McLaren, [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you receive email saying Send this to everyone you know, PLEASE pretend you don't know me. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Fw: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
- Original Message - From: Johnny Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bill Malvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject It wasnt to bad till I turned around to come back. It got real hard to see real fast! One of the more exciting tows was at the first JR aerotows. I had Pete George just realease from the tug when I flew into the SIDE of a big cloud. I cut the power and went into a spirel. Must have been 25 or 30 seconds later the Pegsus pops out of the botton of the cloud. That was kind of fun. I have been accused of haveing to much fun withe the Pegsus, a time or too (BSG) Johnny - Original Message - From: Bill Malvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject On 1/17/05 17:51 Johnny Berlin wrote: 3999 ft. 2004 Nats cross contry scale..Pegasus tow plane I wish I had your eyes. Assuming no slant range on the plane, that is like looking at a 1/4-inch line from 10 feet away. And that would be the wingspan!! ~~~ Bill Malvey RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 - Release Date: 1/12/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 1/17/2005 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
I agree, There was one time that a Cesna was flying around our field watching my SB-XC in the air, after about 10 min. of his persistent fly around's of the field ( aprox 300+ acer's ) I landed, to me he was becoming a hazard, even tho I had a spotter with me I was becoming uncomfortable with him there, If he misjudged the distance there could have been a problem. Normally they just fly by. but this guy hung around until I landed. We do need to keep an eye out because in the air they can not tell the distance from the model. -- Ken York County Soaring Lighthorse Team YCS Silence is Golden RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
close encounters of the aircraft kind: was Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
At 11:27 AM 1/18/2005, Lighthorse wrote: I agree, There was one time that a Cesna was flying around our field watching my SB-XC in the air, after about 10 min. of his persistent fly around's of the field ( aprox 300+ acer's ) I landed, to me he was becoming a hazard, I fly in rolling hill country. Last season I was out by myself with a 2M. I had the plane wy up but not too far out and was puttering about when I heard a serious sound come up very quickly, I glanced over my shoulder and was looking right at a big radial-powered ag plane. The plane was just over the high spots of the hills heading right for where my plane was. I was much higher than he was. I quickly turned to a flight path perpendicular to his and started a shallow dive to get out of the area. I paint all my tail feathers a bright yellow for visibility. I know he saw my plane as he immediately corrected so as to go in the opposite direction to my plane. It was over all so very quickly. After that I heard him in the area, but he stayed very clear of the field I was flying from. Yet another test of the ol' adrenaline pump. Bill Johns RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
They can tell the distance, in fact it would be a pretty naive pilot not to recognize the model was indeed a model. I have been on the receiving end in a 206, a model aircraft does indeed looks and acts like a model. Given a larger model (as in much) would emulate fullsize much closer, the perspective from the cockpit is the velocity you pass the model at. In this case very quickly relative to what your are looking at. Conversely a model far enough away from your position in the cockpit, in order to look realistic in direction and magnitude, would be too far away to easily notice. Glinting off various parts of the model due to the sun's rays are what give away it's presence, but the glint is gone as quickly as you notice it out of the corner of your eye. In other words...unless the model is very close as you wiz by, you will never see it. FWIW, a full size aircraft on a collison course with a model will most likely NOT be able to take (enough) evasive action by the time the pilot or passenger (s) observes an object dead ahead. In Canada, the unrestricted flight zone comes to within 500ft of surface topology. Lots of aircraft fly below this restriction around here, I did for years. Does it restrict my altitude as a model aircraft pilot, no. Technically, uncontrolled airspace will (legally) neither hinder nor add to my position, god forbid their was a mid-air. Those are the facts in uncontrolled airspace. Being close to uncontrolled airspace (say the approach path to an airport) could create negative action if pilot or FO saw models off port or starboard. NAVCOM would investigate and determine the risk...and could shut you down by legal means within hours. They do have the (immediate) clout in cases they perceive as life threatening. Controlled airspace is an entirely different matter and is much more the responsibility of the model aircraft pilot if he elects to fly in a restricted zone. If something bad happened, good luck with ...I did not know I was flying in restricted airspace your honor. Then we are all up the creek. If one retains blue sky between your model, and any other aircraft, the possibility of impact is zero! If I hear an aircraft approaching I will assess the trajectory of it's approach and will determine whether I need to get out of their perceived path. I could care less what altitude it or my model are at, as long as I have blue sky between the approaching object and my model, I'm safe and so is the full size aircraft. Most pilots worth their salt, especially those out on a cruise from their local strip know precisely where the model aircraft sites are located, and avoid them unless(!) other arrangments have been made. Same goes for hang gliding facilites, sailplane facilities, etc. There is definite responsibilities on the part of the fullsize pilot to familiarize yourself with areas you frequent regularly. If someone chose to loiter where I was flying model aircraft, especially those sites sanctioned by our governing body, and elected to put themselves (and their aircraft) in a dangerous position relative to my model, I would be writing down their SN and reporting their behavior. To me this would mean a relative (GND) distance 300ft..but that's just me. If they were above 500ft AGL, no one would listen...and vica versa. Let common sense prevail... Quoting Lighthorse [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I agree, There was one time that a Cesna was flying around our field watching my SB-XC in the air, after about 10 min. of his persistent fly around's of the field ( aprox 300+ acer's ) I landed, to me he was becoming a hazard, even tho I had a spotter with me I was becoming uncomfortable with him there, If he misjudged the distance there could have been a problem. Normally they just fly by. but this guy hung around until I landed. We do need to keep an eye out because in the air they can not tell the distance from the model. -- Ken York County Soaring Lighthorse Team YCS Silence is Golden RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
Being close to uncontrolled airspace should read; being close the CONTROLLED airspace! Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: They can tell the distance, in fact it would be a pretty naive pilot not to recognize the model was indeed a model. I have been on the receiving end in a 206, a model aircraft does indeed looks and acts like a model. Given a larger model (as in much) would emulate fullsize much closer, the perspective from the cockpit is the velocity you pass the model at. In this case very quickly relative to what your are looking at. Conversely a model far enough away from your position in the cockpit, in order to look realistic in direction and magnitude, would be too far away to easily notice. Glinting off various parts of the model due to the sun's rays are what give away it's presence, but the glint is gone as quickly as you notice it out of the corner of your eye. In other words...unless the model is very close as you wiz by, you will never see it. FWIW, a full size aircraft on a collison course with a model will most likely NOT be able to take (enough) evasive action by the time the pilot or passenger (s) observes an object dead ahead. In Canada, the unrestricted flight zone comes to within 500ft of surface topology. Lots of aircraft fly below this restriction around here, I did for years. Does it restrict my altitude as a model aircraft pilot, no. Technically, uncontrolled airspace will (legally) neither hinder nor add to my position, god forbid their was a mid-air. Those are the facts in uncontrolled airspace. Being close to uncontrolled airspace (say the approach path to an airport) could create negative action if pilot or FO saw models off port or starboard. NAVCOM would investigate and determine the risk...and could shut you down by legal means within hours. They do have the (immediate) clout in cases they perceive as life threatening. Controlled airspace is an entirely different matter and is much more the responsibility of the model aircraft pilot if he elects to fly in a restricted zone. If something bad happened, good luck with ...I did not know I was flying in restricted airspace your honor. Then we are all up the creek. If one retains blue sky between your model, and any other aircraft, the possibility of impact is zero! If I hear an aircraft approaching I will assess the trajectory of it's approach and will determine whether I need to get out of their perceived path. I could care less what altitude it or my model are at, as long as I have blue sky between the approaching object and my model, I'm safe and so is the full size aircraft. Most pilots worth their salt, especially those out on a cruise from their local strip know precisely where the model aircraft sites are located, and avoid them unless(!) other arrangments have been made. Same goes for hang gliding facilites, sailplane facilities, etc. There is definite responsibilities on the part of the fullsize pilot to familiarize yourself with areas you frequent regularly. If someone chose to loiter where I was flying model aircraft, especially those sites sanctioned by our governing body, and elected to put themselves (and their aircraft) in a dangerous position relative to my model, I would be writing down their SN and reporting their behavior. To me this would mean a relative (GND) distance 300ft..but that's just me. If they were above 500ft AGL, no one would listen...and vica versa. Let common sense prevail... Quoting Lighthorse [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I agree, There was one time that a Cesna was flying around our field watching my SB-XC in the air, after about 10 min. of his persistent fly around's of the field ( aprox 300+ acer's ) I landed, to me he was becoming a hazard, even tho I had a spotter with me I was becoming uncomfortable with him there, If he misjudged the distance there could have been a problem. Normally they just fly by. but this guy hung around until I landed. We do need to keep an eye out because in the air they can not tell the distance from the model. -- Ken York County Soaring Lighthorse Team YCS Silence is Golden RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe
RE: close encounters of the aircraft kind: was Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
Location is the key. I fly a beach slope which is close to two training airports. This means it has a steady flow of new, full scale pilots showing off their new skills but poor judgement. Usually, I hear them coming and can make a downwind dash back to the slope edge which leaves them a horizontal separation of several hundred feet. However, if I don't hear them coming (because they are idling to reduce altitude), there's not much I can do other than pull a high bank (for them to see me) and dive for the deck. That being said, I have been under flown several times while at an altitude of less than 500'.\ Phil in Vancouver ps: By the way, my hats are off to you guys that fly at Torrey Pines. Flown there once, don't think I ever do that again. I fly for fun not adrenaline. -Original Message- From: Bill Johns [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: January 18, 2005 2:09 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: close encounters of the aircraft kind: was Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider I fly in rolling hill country. Last season I was out by myself with a 2M. I had the plane wy up but not too far out and was puttering about when I heard a serious sound come up very quickly, I glanced over my shoulder and was looking right at a big radial-powered ag plane. The plane was just over the high spots of the hills heading right for where my plane was. I was much higher than he was. I quickly turned to a flight path perpendicular to his and started a shallow dive to get out of the area. I paint all my tail feathers a bright yellow for visibility. I know he saw my plane as he immediately corrected so as to go in the opposite direction to my plane. It was over all so very quickly. After that I heard him in the area, but he stayed very clear of the field I was flying from. Yet another test of the ol' adrenaline pump. Bill Johns web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: close encounters of the aircraft kind: was Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
I occasionally fly at a farm that is about 20 miles from a local Air National Guard facility. They fly their A-10 Warthog training missions all around the local area, plus the farm is within the approach pattern for Westover AFB (they are very high on approach, no danger). Actually lots of my state, Connecticut, is close to airports of one sort or another and well within 150 miles of Newark, JFK and Boston. I had just caught several monster thermals in a row with my 3M Marauder and was flying from cloud to cloud with the plane well within sight but still pretty darn high. All of a sudden I heard a jet sound from behind me and see a pair of A-10's just below cloud height heading to where I was flying. I quickly pointed the plane to a safe patch of sky perpendicular to their direction of travel as the planes banked in unison. My heart was beating very quickly as I nervously porpoised the plane to safety. The A-10s made a very large turn (perhaps a 10 mile radius) out of my sight and came back over the field a few minutes later. They were low enough at this point that I could see the guys in the cockpit and the patches on their arms. My plane at this point was low enough that my time was divided between two activities - looking at the jets and also at my plane below the tree line. My main concern was for the pilots and not my plane so I did not get to wave to the pilots. I have always hoped that they were looking at me out of curiosity rather than not having seen me. I had not seen planes this low previously and have not seen any since after several years of flying at this location. Bill Johns wrote: I fly in rolling hill country. Last season I was out by myself with a 2M. I had the plane wy up but not too far out and was puttering about when I heard a serious sound come up very quickly, I glanced over my shoulder and was looking right at a big radial-powered ag plane. The plane was just over the high spots of the hills heading right for where my plane was. I was much higher than he was. I quickly turned to a flight path perpendicular to his and started a shallow dive to get out of the area. I paint all my tail feathers a bright yellow for visibility. I know he saw my plane as he immediately corrected so as to go in the opposite direction to my plane. It was over all so very quickly. After that I heard him in the area, but he stayed very clear of the field I was flying from. Yet another test of the ol' adrenaline pump. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
Did it, it is how I tested my Sky panel. You can se the plot on my website, go to tech tips then Sky melody review page.. I drove between two known elevations, one at Harris Hill glider port down to the Elmira regional airport. Accuracy was within three feet I added the 10 as a modest gesture. The car was cold to start then warmed as I drove, the unit still reported accurate readings. You can see the temperature plot as well. Keep in mind on my computer the graph can be zoomed in on to pinpoint data. John Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Doug McLaren [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 12:46 PM To: John Derstine Cc: 'Johnny Berlin'; 'Mark Wales'; soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject If you feel that your altimeter is grossly innaccurate, it's easy enough to test by just driving around with it and a GPS in your car, assuming that you've got some hills to drive on. The precision of the GPS, even with WAAS, is likely to be lower than that of your altimeter, but it should give you a good idea. This doesn't take into account temperature variations at altitude, but should give you a good general idea of how accurate the device is, especially if you can do something like drive up a 2000' hill. If you can get on the roof of a tall building and compare the readings to that on the ground, that'll work too. -- Doug McLaren, [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you receive email saying Send this to everyone you know, PLEASE pretend you don't know me. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
Yeah, I know that to be true Johnny... Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Johnny Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bill Malvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject I have been accused of haveing to much fun withe the Pegsus, a time or too (BSG) Johnny RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
Above Ground Level AGL. .bcAG4YQ Williamsburg, VA On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, jon stone wrote: AGL ?? On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:42:32 -0700, Howard Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh... from a winch? 7,717 feet. July 31 2004. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
Probably true, sense I have not seen a scale ship from a cockpit of a plane. Most of my planes are over 4m so It does get a little unnerving when they loiter, which has only happened twice to me. -- Ken York County Soaring Lighthorse Team YCS Silence is Golden RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
I agree, There was one time that a Cesna was flying around our field watching my SB-XC in the air, after about 10 min. of his persistent fly around's of the field ( aprox 300+ acer's ) It can get pretty dicey at times. In the 60's the old Arc's field situated about seven miles from Pittsburgh International had the airliners passing directly overhead at about 500 feet which always made me nervous and a little disorientated to boot! I found it hard not to watch the airliners. The field had been provided by the state as part of a noise park program and was situated at the top of a hill with the land around it strip-mined away. Sorta like a plateau. You could see them coming from a long ways off but it was still unnerving to me. The worst case I have ever seen occurred a few years ago, (70's), at a W.W.I contest at a full size field in NY. A Piper Cherokee began circling around at about 100 foot altitude while numerous large models were in the air doing a mass fly by. He simply came in over the trees and joined the left hand pattern with the models! The field layout with trees surrounding the field left no options for the models. The boys at the field were simulating flack by shooting off bird popper loads from a 12 gauge at the time and from appearances that is what finally caused him to shear off and go away. Three times at the same two day jamboree Cassia's tried to land on the closed runway. Big X's at each end and a runway full of people notwithstanding. These boy's had flaps down and were well into the approach at around 100 feet before they took the wave off and went away. One of them went around and tried again. Probably something about the big X's and the guy waving the big red flag he didn't understand, I suppose. Dennis in NH RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: close encounters of the aircraft kind: was Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
Location is the key. I fly a beach slope which is close to two training airports. This means it has a steady flow of new, full scale pilots showing off their new skills but poor judgement. The local slope in Bellingham, Wa. is literally about 1/4 Mile from the end of the runway of the international airport! It is directly in the landing path of the runway!!! The tower is aware of the slope and just told them to stay under 200ft. if there is traffic. Traffic is hard to miss because it is coming straight at you This slope has been in use for over 15 years and there has never been an incident of any sort. I was flying on Orcas Island a few years ago at a site that is about 3/4 mile from the airport and there was an incident, The full scale pilot was completely at fault. He saw us, knew some of the guys flying and he intentionally buzzed the field at about 300ft. He got close enough to a model to realize the implications and then made a complaint to the airport later. They checked into it, but when they heard the entire story, they verbally chastized the full scale guy Mark Mech www.aerofoam.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: close encounters of the aircraft kind: was Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
Used to fly at the Bellingham slope all the time... Great slope!! (But not much of a landing) And no real danger in that if the wind was on the slope, full scale traffic was taking off (into the wind) from the runway behind you, and always at a much higher altitude than the slope lift allowed you to reach. The only time traffic landed from the direction of the slope was when the wind was from the other direction, and hence, usually, unflyable for us. And in any event, as you said, you could see them coming for miles... Erich Merkel Colville, WA Phone: 509-684-0440 Cell: 509-680-1141 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 9:44 PM Subject: Re: close encounters of the aircraft kind: was Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider | | Location is the key. I fly a beach slope which is close to two training | airports. This means it has a steady flow of new, full scale pilots | showing | off their new skills but poor judgement. | | The local slope in Bellingham, Wa. is literally about 1/4 Mile from the end | of | the runway of the international airport! It is directly in the landing path | of the | runway!!! The tower is aware of the slope and just told them to stay under | 200ft. | if there is traffic. Traffic is hard to miss because it is coming straight | at you | This slope has been in use for over 15 years and there has never been an | incident | of any sort. | I was flying on Orcas Island a few years ago at a site that is about 3/4 | mile from the | airport and there was an incident, The full scale pilot was completely at | fault. | He saw us, knew some of the guys flying and he intentionally buzzed the | field at about 300ft. He got close enough to a model to realize the | implications | and then made a complaint to the airport later. | They checked into it, but when they heard the entire story, they verbally | chastized | the full scale guy | | Mark Mech | www.aerofoam.com | | RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format | | RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] High Altitude Glider
A buddy stumbled upon this site. Interesting, anyone familiar withthe chaps who attempted this project? Maybe that nose mounted camera and autopilot would help me finally nail a landing or two! http://members.shaw.ca/sonde/index.htm Jim RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
Jim, I've seen this site before. Projects like this are the reason that the FAA wants to regulate UAVs (and RC aircraft) flying under autopilot or video downlink. This case is specifically mentioned when they talk about having to control any aircraft in their airspace. It doesn't apply to RC until you get above 400', then you're in their space again. They also regularly use the example of a full scale helicopter flying under an RC trainer with a video downlink under it. The helicopter never saw the RC plane as it passed ~100' below it. Unfortunately this kind of story constantly pops up on the internet giving the feds more ammunition to make stricter regs with. Luckily the FAA isn't that concerned with typical RC flying, only with vision enhanced systems or autonomous systems. Happy flying, Jim www.jtmodels.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
Jim, The 400 foot limit within 3 miles of an airport thing is an AMA safety rule; it has nothing to do with FAA airspace. So are the no autonomous flight and maintain unenhanced visual contact rules. The AMA rules used to correspond exectly to the published FAA guidelines for model aircraft operations. I don't know if they still do. Most of us that fly anywhere remotely near urban areas fly in controlled airspace (see below). The only reason that we are not violating FAA regulations is that the FAA HAS NO REGULATIONS regarding operation of model aircraft. The FAA doesn't even have a good definition of what a model aircraft is! The FAI does. Essentially if your model weighs less than 5 Kg. (FAI limit), then you have a pretty good argument for it being a model (unless you use it commercially). Depending on who you talk to at the FAA and what you're using your model for, they will probably say it's a UAV if you're going to take it very high - certainly if you're wanting to venture into class A airspace! Because model gliders routinely operate at a thousand feet or higher within controlled airspace, I firmly believe that the FAA should take control of model aircraft regulations. If nothing else, the FAA should provide guidelines and assistance (NOTAMS...) for high altitude model operations around established AMA facilities, XC operations, and record attempts. At the moment, it is impossible to work with those guys as they have no established procedures. Right now, the AMA has a head in the sand attitude and will take no action to coordinate with the FAA. ** All US airspace is classified as A,B,C,D or E - or uncontrolled. Class A is above 18K feet in the continental US. Class B is airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL surrounding the nation's busiest airports. Class C airspace extends from the surface to 4,000 feet above the airport elevation (charted in MSL) surrounding those airports that have an operational control tower, are serviced by a radar approach control, and that have a certain number of IFR operations or passenger enplanements. Class D airspace extends from the surface to 2,500 feet above the airport elevation (charted in MSL) surrounding those airports that have an operational control tower. Generally, if the airspace is not Class A, Class B, Class C, or Class D, and it is controlled airspace, it is Class E airspace. Except for 18,000 feet MSL, Class E airspace has no defined vertical limit but rather it extends upward from either the surface or a designated altitude to the overlying or adjacent controlled airspace. There are Class E airspace areas beginning at either 700 or 1,200 feet AGL used to transition to/from the terminal or en route environment. *** Mark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 9:20 AM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider Jim, I've seen this site before. Projects like this are the reason that the FAA wants to regulate UAVs (and RC aircraft) flying under autopilot or video downlink. This case is specifically mentioned when they talk about having to control any aircraft in their airspace. It doesn't apply to RC until you get above 400', then you're in their space again. They also regularly use the example of a full scale helicopter flying under an RC trainer with a video downlink under it. The helicopter never saw the RC plane as it passed ~100' below it. Unfortunately this kind of story constantly pops up on the internet giving the feds more ammunition to make stricter regs with. Luckily the FAA isn't that concerned with typical RC flying, only with vision enhanced systems or autonomous systems. Happy flying, Jim www.jtmodels.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format *** This message is intended only for the use of the Addressee and may contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please erase all copies of the message and its attachments and notify Space Imaging immediately. *** RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based
RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
Hi Mark, Actually, there is an FAA AC 91-57 that 400' is the limit(http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdviso ryCircular.nsf/0/1acfc3f689769a56862569e70077c9cc?OpenDocument). As you'll see in the document, how close you are to an airport has no bearing on the altitude limit. As a pilot I'm familiar with the regs and had to really dig to find the document I mentioned. The person in the FAA that is responsible for writing the UAV regulation is in our club and adapts the typical government mentality that the information is out there but you have to find it yourself. Luckily I stumbled across it while surfing. Happy flying, Jim www.jtmodels.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
Actuall, here's a link to the doc on the FAA site. Much easier to read. http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCirc ular.nsf/0/1acfc3f689769a56862569e70077c9cc/$FILE/ATTBJMAC/ac91-57.pdf Jim RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
Jim, Yes - that is the document I was referring to. Note that it is dated 1981. It is an advisory only and not a FAR -- i.e. it has no legal power. You are violating no FAA regulations regardless of where you fly a model aircraft. Mark Private Pilot Cer # 1974253 LSF V #115 US F3B Altitude Record 2004 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 11:17 AM To: Howard Mark; soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider Actuall, here's a link to the doc on the FAA site. Much easier to read. http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCirc ular.nsf/0/1acfc3f689769a56862569e70077c9cc/$FILE/ATTBJMAC/ac91-57.pdf Jim *** This message is intended only for the use of the Addressee and may contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please erase all copies of the message and its attachments and notify Space Imaging immediately. *** RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
It does have some legal power as it show the intent of the FAA. Judges can use these when interpreting FARs. Still, there is no FAR that regulates models so I'm not sure any of this matters. In any event, if you are not a FAA licensed pilot or an airplane owner the FAA has no means of enforcing anything against you. -Ben Howard Mark wrote: Jim, Yes - that is the document I was referring to. Note that it is dated 1981. It is an advisory only and not a FAR -- i.e. it has no legal power. You are violating no FAA regulations regardless of where you fly a model aircraft. Mark Private Pilot Cer # 1974253 LSF V #115 US F3B Altitude Record 2004 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 11:17 AM To: Howard Mark; soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider Actuall, here's a link to the doc on the FAA site. Much easier to read. http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCirc ular.nsf/0/1acfc3f689769a56862569e70077c9cc/$FILE/ATTBJMAC/ac91-57.pdf Jim *** This message is intended only for the use of the Addressee and may contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please erase all copies of the message and its attachments and notify Space Imaging immediately. *** RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
A buddy stumbled upon this site. Interesting, anyone familiar withthe chaps who attempted this project? http://members.shaw.ca/sonde/index.htm I was loosely involved with a similar project about 6 years ago, I designed a specific airfram for a 120K' drop with the intent of establishing a glide at 100K. (a record at the time) The group that was sponsoring the project had technical problems with the radio uplink and down link, but the major problem was getting FAA clearance for the airspace. There were only specific windows of time available in that region and the major stumbling block was that NASA was trying to do the same thing at the same time. It was apparent that the NASA group had preferential treatment when it came to getting the approval! Go figure... Mark Mech www.aerofoam.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
Those of you out there flying with altimitters. How high have you flown and with what sailplane? Myself: In Aug 1995 my Windsong hit 3740 ft AGL. Never want to try that again. Mark Soaring Is Life!! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
Ben, In any event, if you are not a FAA licensed pilot or an airplane owner the FAA has no means of enforcing anything against you. FAR's are federal law. They apply to all individuals - pilots or not. Violation of regulations may subject you to severe penalties - including fines and jail time. The AC encourages voluntary compliance. Violations have no legal ramifications. Mark -Original Message- From: Ben Diss [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:46 PM To: Howard Mark Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider It does have some legal power as it show the intent of the FAA. Judges can use these when interpreting FARs. Still, there is no FAR that regulates models so I'm not sure any of this matters. In any event, if you are not a FAA licensed pilot or an airplane owner the FAA has no means of enforcing anything against you. -Ben *** This message is intended only for the use of the Addressee and may contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please erase all copies of the message and its attachments and notify Space Imaging immediately. *** RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
Title: Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject Mark Wales on 1-17-05 3:50 PM wrote: Myself: In Aug 1995 my Windsong hit 3740 ft AGL. Never want to try that again. Mark How big is that Windsong to be able to see it that high? -- Jim Holliman -- Tulsa, Oklahoma AMA TULSOAR
RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
Question: How would the average modeler ever know about a given local FAR, NOTAM, etc? law or not it is not likely we would be aware of said regulation. Some folks, policy mongers and bureaucrats, will argue the letter of the law ad nauseum. In many ways it is similar to the FCC, lots of rules and laws and no way to possibly enforce most of them. Some guys are afraid to change modules in their transmitter for fear of breaking some FCC reg. Just don't get caught doing something really stupid. Fly with reasonable care, and know your location. We have lost enough of our civil liberties, let's not invent ways to limit our activities. That will come of it's own accord eventually. After all, the AMA official flying site is immediately adjacent to a full scale airport. Not three miles. Go figure that one out. We were shut down from flying XC at the NATS this year because of a complaint from the airport staff. Several guys were flying directly in the pattern. We moved to the other side of the AMA site (still not three miles) away, and were flying well over 3,000 feet in some instances. Should we ask the FAA if that was OK? JD Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Howard Mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 4:53 PM To: Ben Diss Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider Ben, In any event, if you are not a FAA licensed pilot or an airplane owner the FAA has no means of enforcing anything against you. FAR's are federal law. They apply to all individuals - pilots or not. Violation of regulations may subject you to severe penalties - including fines and jail time. The AC encourages voluntary compliance. Violations have no legal ramifications. Mark -Original Message- From: Ben Diss [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:46 PM To: Howard Mark Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider It does have some legal power as it show the intent of the FAA. Judges can use these when interpreting FARs. Still, there is no FAR that regulates models so I'm not sure any of this matters. In any event, if you are not a FAA licensed pilot or an airplane owner the FAA has no means of enforcing anything against you. -Ben ** * This message is intended only for the use of the Addressee and may contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please erase all copies of the message and its attachments and notify Space Imaging immediately. ** * RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
Question: How would the average modeler ever know about a given local FAR, NOTAM, etc? law or not it is not likely we would be aware of said regulation. John, I think the answer is to educate the full-scale folks about the capabilities of model aircraft and establish procedures for model aircraft operations in special modes such as XC, and altitude record attempts. The AMA cannot do this. It takes the FAA. The FAA should mark sectional charts with model glider field locations - just as they do for full-scale gliders. They should issue NOTAMS for events like the NATS - not only for XC; but for any event where there is a possibility of collision. The average modeler is not flying at 3000 feet. Those that want to should be required to know and follow safety rules -- and full-scale aircraft flying in the vicinity have a right to know that model aircraft are operating there. Right now we all have to follow your suggestion - Fly with reasonable care, and know your location. But ask yourself if flying a model glider in an airport traffic pattern really makes sense? You are right -- if we ask the FAA if it's OK to fly at 3000 ft - they will say NO! That's because they don't understand models and are not responsible for their operations. If they were responsible, then they would be forced to implement solutions to these issues instead of passing the buck. The situation now is a disaster waiting to happen. Mark *** This message is intended only for the use of the Addressee and may contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please erase all copies of the message and its attachments and notify Space Imaging immediately. *** RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
You are right -- if we ask the FAA if it's OK to fly at 3000 ft - they will say NO! That's because they don't understand models and are not responsible for their operations. This has not been my experience. Here in SOCAL we have worked with the SOCAL Airspace Manager on a few occasions to obtain waivers to operate at higher altitudes in areas of full scale operation for scale aerotow events. One event was held at Prado Airpark, which is 3 miles due south of Chino (CNO) and 2.8 miles west of Corona (AJO) airports. Normal operations at this field are restricted to 400 feet agl. We obtained a waiver to go to 2,000 feet. The FAA issued a NOTAM during the days of the event and Chino tower worked closely with us as well. We did a similar thing to operate an event at the former El Toro MCAS. Our dealings with the FAA showed us several things: 1 - They were very cooperative and very happy to work with us. They were very pleased that we approached them. The proactive approach works better than other possible approaches. 2 - They are FAR more aware of the model world than you think. We were very surprised by the level and detail of their knowledge. 3 - They are very concerned about RPV's right now and it is likely that they will move to regulate them very soon. 4 - Regardless of controlled versus uncontrolled airspace, the FAA regulates ALL airspace in the US. All controlled means is the type of equipment required and operational policies and procedures. Uncontrolled airspace does NOT mean that it is outside FAA authority. 5 - They firmly believe that the 400 foot limit is a real number and NOT simple guidance. And they also believe it applies EVERYWHERE. The Long Beach Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) has issued an official opinion as such and it is generally followed by all FAA FSDOs. The AMA added the within 3-miles of an airport nuance. So FWIW these are the experiences I have had in dealing with the FAA regarding model aircraft operations here in SOCAL. ~~~ Bill Malvey RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
Mark- Can you please then tell us what penalty the FAA may enforce upon a non-pilot, non-aircraft owner for a violation of an FAR? Please site the relevant statutes. Please also compare the administrative process the FAA uses for enforcement actions with federal criminal proceedings which may result in fines and imprisonment. AC's are often sited in judicial proceedings (usually against pilots). While they aren't regulatory in nature, they support the FAA's intentions. As a pilot, if you dare to violate an AC you risk facing the wrath of some creative FAA inspector armed with his book of woe. -Ben Howard Mark wrote: Ben, In any event, if you are not a FAA licensed pilot or an airplane owner the FAA has no means of enforcing anything against you. FAR's are federal law. They apply to all individuals - pilots or not. Violation of regulations may subject you to severe penalties - including fines and jail time. The AC encourages voluntary compliance. Violations have no legal ramifications. Mark -Original Message- From: Ben Diss [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:46 PM To: Howard Mark Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider It does have some legal power as it show the intent of the FAA. Judges can use these when interpreting FARs. Still, there is no FAR that regulates models so I'm not sure any of this matters. In any event, if you are not a FAA licensed pilot or an airplane owner the FAA has no means of enforcing anything against you. -Ben RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
From 1996 through 2000 we did what you suggested (sans notifying the FAA). We held the Elmira aerotow at Harris Hill glider port flying with full scale sailplanes in full view of the Chemung County airport less than three miles away. We established for the first time ever at Harris Hill, radio communication between the full scale flight line, full scale tow pilots, and the model flight line. The tower guys at the airport were apprised of our activity. This was pilots both model and full scale cooperating to make something happen. The AMA knew what we were doing and turned a blind eye. Maynard Hill came, Paul Schweizer was there every year, The FAA had no idea, nobody had any expectation that their (FAA) involvement would help this be safer or that they would approve. Of course they would not. We did it, the full scale guys were OK with it and soared with us at 3500 AGL. We had spotters, we shared and took turns using the runway. The FAA is not the be all and end all. If we had asked them, we would not have kicked off the giant scale soaring movement with aerotowing. Some times it takes benign neglect to pull off an event that on the books, breaks all the rules. JD Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Howard Mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 6:04 PM To: John Derstine; soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider Question: How would the average modeler ever know about a given local FAR, NOTAM, etc? law or not it is not likely we would be aware of said regulation. John, I think the answer is to educate the full-scale folks about the capabilities of model aircraft and establish procedures for model aircraft operations in special modes such as XC, and altitude record attempts. The AMA cannot do this. It takes the FAA. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
In any event, if you are not a FAA licensed pilot or an airplane owner the FAA has no means of enforcing anything against you. (Howard Mark) I wouldn't bet on it, myself. One of the Southern California soaring clubs (EDSF) had a run-in with a low flying aircraft which effectively lost them the use of their field (certainly for competitions). The FAA didn't show up at their field, just the cops. The (SC)2 organization has adopted a new rule where if a full-size plane encroaches on the competition area they blow a horn to alert the fliers who are then required to land as soon as possible (the fliers in the air are credited with their flight time and they just have to land for points or something like that). What it'll mean in practise is that once that horn goes off everyone's just going to be diving for cover. Martin Usher RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
On Mon, Jan 17, 2005 at 05:27:02PM -0500, John Derstine wrote: | How would the average modeler ever know about a given local FAR, NOTAM, | etc? law or not it is not likely we would be aware of said regulation. `Ignorance of the law is no excuse.' Like it or not, some NOTAMs do seem to be applied to to model aircraft. If the President is in town and they've said no flying within 20 miles, you'd probably be better off not flying, even R/C, within 20 miles. Now, you could go ahead and fly, and maybe nobody will notice, or maybe the police will come and violate some of your civil rights. Legal or not, you'll still be in jail, your plane impounded, and you'll have your day in court. You may end up winning, with the judge ruling that the NOTAM or whatever doesn't apply to you -- but you may very well lose too. And even if you win, it'll cost you money and give the hobby a bad name. It's a lose/lose situation. | Some folks, policy mongers and bureaucrats, will argue the letter of the | law ad nauseum. So, what you're saying is that somebody who looks carefully at the letter of the law is a policy mongers and bureaucrat? I don't suppose you could be somewhat more condescending -- could you? However, with regards to the document that Jim provided a link to, this does not look like a law -- it looks like a set of guidelines with no legal weight. (And by saying so, I guess that makes me a policy monger or a bureaucrat? hah!) Not that I'm a lawyer, policy monger or bureaucrat. Since it doesn't really look binding, I'll continue flying over 400' when I feel it's appropriate. | In many ways it is similar to the FCC, lots of rules and laws and no | way to possibly enforce most of them. Some guys are afraid to change | modules in their transmitter for fear of breaking some FCC reg. Actually, changing modules is allowed. It's changing transmitter crystals that's not so certain. (Not that this is an invitation to dredge up this argument again.) | Just don't get caught doing something really stupid. Fly with | reasonable care, and know your location. Sounds reasonable. However, accidents happen, and suppose that somebody was killed by an out of control R/C plane (it has happened, after all) and it was determined that the crystal on the transmitter was swapped by the end user, when the FCC prohibits this? Or that a NOTAM was ignored, because it was believed not to apply to model aircraft? | We have lost enough of our civil liberties, let's not invent ways to | limit our activities. OK, there I agree. But while I may not tell you what you can't do, that doesn't mean I won't decide for myself what's not smart to do for whatever reasons (safety, technical, political, legal, etc.) | That will come of it's own accord eventually. Maybe. Maybe not. | After all, the AMA official flying site is immediately adjacent to a | full scale airport. Not three miles. Go figure that one out. Does sound like poor planning, doesn't it? | We were shut down from flying XC at the NATS this year because of a | complaint from the airport staff. Several guys were flying directly | in the pattern. That sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it? If I see a full scale plane anywhere near where I fly, I get the hell out of his way. Perhaps legally I have as much right to be up there as he does, perhaps not, but I'm certainly not going to make an issue out of it. | We moved to the other side of the AMA site (still not three miles) | away, and were flying well over 3,000 feet in some instances. | Should we ask the FAA if that was OK? If you're concerned that a NOTAM prohibits it, I'd suggest getting the FAA to clarify their position. The AMA rules do require notifying the airport operator when operating that close to an airport -- I assume that this was done for the Muncie site. They also require yielding the right-of-way and avoiding flying in the proximity of full-scale aircraft, utilizing a spotter when appropriate -- which seems entirely appropriate as well. -- Doug McLaren, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
Ben, This should answer your question concerning FAA penalties for FAR violations: http://www.agl.faa.gov/publicaffairs/HowWork/Civil.doc As I said, penalties for violating FAR's can be levied on anyone - not just pilots. FAA regulation violations carry no criminal penalty per se. However many infractions are covered by other federal and state laws. Violations such as interfering with a crew member and flying while intoxicated are examples. http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TRAVEL/NEWS/07/31/faa.airrage/ In addition http://www.access.gpo.gov/uscode/title49/subtitlevii_parta_subpartiv_chapter463_.html From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov] [Laws in effect as of January 7, 2003] [Document not affected by Public Laws enacted between January 7, 2003 and February 12, 2003] [CITE: 49USC46317] TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION SUBTITLE VII--AVIATION PROGRAMS PART A--AIR COMMERCE AND SAFETY subpart iv--enforcement and penalties CHAPTER 463--PENALTIES Sec. 46317. Criminal penalty for pilots operating in air transportation without an airman's certificate (a) General Criminal Penalty.--An individual shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned for not more than 3 years, or both, if that individual-- (1) knowingly and willfully serves or attempts to serve in any capacity as an airman operating an aircraft in air transportation without an airman's certificate authorizing the individual to serve in that capacity; or ... Mark Mark- Can you please then tell us what penalty the FAA may enforce upon a non-pilot, non-aircraft owner for a violation of an FAR? Please site the relevant statutes. Please also compare the administrative process the FAA uses for enforcement actions with federal criminal proceedings which may result in fines and imprisonment. AC's are often sited in judicial proceedings (usually against pilots). While they aren't regulatory in nature, they support the FAA's intentions. As a pilot, if you dare to violate an AC you risk facing the wrath of some creative FAA inspector armed with his book of woe. -Ben This message is intended only for the use of the Addressee and may contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please erase all copies of the message and its attachments and notify Space Imaging immediately. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
This is actually a good discussion if we all remember to keep it civil. Me included. What is rapidly being pointed out by the varying points of view and opinions is that the answers lie somewhere between calling the FAA every time you fly, to ignoring the issue completely. Few if anyone here knows the facts or can speak unequivocally to the exact expectation of laws, regulations, and or guidelines. What we have to some extent are policy wonks vs. civil libertarians. Smile a little please and don't take my labels personally. Police come because someone calls them, it may have little to do with violating FAA regulations. The little guy always will take the fall, and the model airplane pilot is the little guy here. But again let's not paint ourselves into a corner. I have been flying in airspace; mine, the full scale guys, and or the FAA's for over 30 years, never had the FAA or the AMA police come and say your flying too high. It won't happen. What may happen is that when you screw up the lens will focus on the model guy. That said, if you invite scrutiny, you will get it, and maybe not the variety you want. In addition, we may have to agree that there is a big difference in regulated airspace between Southern California and Muncie Indiana, or Elmira NY. The reality here is that few if any soaring contest CD's think of getting a NOTAM from the FAA every time they have a contest... JD Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Doug McLaren [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 6:52 PM To: John Derstine Cc: soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider On Mon, Jan 17, 2005 at 05:27:02PM -0500, John Derstine wrote: | How would the average modeler ever know about a given local FAR, NOTAM, | etc? law or not it is not likely we would be aware of said regulation. `Ignorance of the law is no excuse.' Like it or not, some NOTAMs do seem to be applied to to model aircraft. If the President is in town and they've said no flying within 20 miles, you'd probably be better off not flying, even R/C, within 20 miles. Now, you could go ahead and fly, and maybe nobody will notice, or maybe the police will come and violate some of your civil rights. Legal or not, you'll still be in jail, your plane impounded, and you'll have your day in court. You may end up winning, with the judge ruling that the NOTAM or whatever doesn't apply to you -- but you may very well lose too. And even if you win, it'll cost you money and give the hobby a bad name. It's a lose/lose situation. | Some folks, policy mongers and bureaucrats, will argue the letter of the | law ad nauseum. So, what you're saying is that somebody who looks carefully at the letter of the law is a policy mongers and bureaucrat? I don't suppose you could be somewhat more condescending -- could you? However, with regards to the document that Jim provided a link to, this does not look like a law -- it looks like a set of guidelines with no legal weight. (And by saying so, I guess that makes me a policy monger or a bureaucrat? hah!) Not that I'm a lawyer, policy monger or bureaucrat. Since it doesn't really look binding, I'll continue flying over 400' when I feel it's appropriate. | In many ways it is similar to the FCC, lots of rules and laws and no | way to possibly enforce most of them. Some guys are afraid to change | modules in their transmitter for fear of breaking some FCC reg. Actually, changing modules is allowed. It's changing transmitter crystals that's not so certain. (Not that this is an invitation to dredge up this argument again.) | Just don't get caught doing something really stupid. Fly with | reasonable care, and know your location. Sounds reasonable. However, accidents happen, and suppose that somebody was killed by an out of control R/C plane (it has happened, after all) and it was determined that the crystal on the transmitter was swapped by the end user, when the FCC prohibits this? Or that a NOTAM was ignored, because it was believed not to apply to model aircraft? | We have lost enough of our civil liberties, let's not invent ways to | limit our activities. OK, there I agree. But while I may not tell you what you can't do, that doesn't mean I won't decide for myself what's not smart to do for whatever reasons (safety, technical, political, legal, etc.) | That will come of it's own accord eventually. Maybe. Maybe not. | After all, the AMA official flying site is immediately adjacent to a | full scale airport. Not three miles. Go figure that one out. Does sound like poor planning, doesn't it? | We were shut down from flying XC at the NATS this year because of a | complaint from the airport staff. Several guys were flying directly | in the pattern. That sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it? If I see a full scale plane anywhere near where I
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
Sorry Mark, but reading that simply supports my point. The FAA can't do anything to a non-pilot. Your example below would require a Federal criminal prosecutor to file charges in Federal court. The FAA does not do this. The FAA's enforcement is with penalties and sanctions against pilots. Do you really think, that if a FAR is created regulating our toys, that a Federal criminal prosecutor would even care? I'll bet not unless someone does something stupid, and then they would probably deserve it. I really shouldn't worry about all this because the AMA will represent our views with the Feds and make sure that we can continue to play with our toys as we see fit. Right? The BIG lesson here is for all FAA licensed pilots. If the FAA decides to play in this arena and I break their rule, I will be slapped with an emergency revocation of my license. The guy flying next to me would not. -Ben Howard Mark wrote: Ben, This should answer your question concerning FAA penalties for FAR violations: http://www.agl.faa.gov/publicaffairs/HowWork/Civil.doc As I said, penalties for violating FAR's can be levied on anyone - not just pilots. FAA regulation violations carry no criminal penalty per se. However many infractions are covered by other federal and state laws. Violations such as interfering with a crew member and flying while intoxicated are examples. http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TRAVEL/NEWS/07/31/faa.airrage/ In addition http://www.access.gpo.gov/uscode/title49/subtitlevii_parta_subpartiv_chapter463_.html From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access [wais.access.gpo.gov] [Laws in effect as of January 7, 2003] [Document not affected by Public Laws enacted between January 7, 2003 and February 12, 2003] [CITE: 49USC46317] TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION SUBTITLE VII--AVIATION PROGRAMS PART A--AIR COMMERCE AND SAFETY subpart iv--enforcement and penalties CHAPTER 463--PENALTIES Sec. 46317. Criminal penalty for pilots operating in air transportation without an airman's certificate (a) General Criminal Penalty.--An individual shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned for not more than 3 years, or both, if that individual-- (1) knowingly and willfully serves or attempts to serve in any capacity as an airman operating an aircraft in air transportation without an airman's certificate authorizing the individual to serve in that capacity; or ... Mark Mark- Can you please then tell us what penalty the FAA may enforce upon a non-pilot, non-aircraft owner for a violation of an FAR? Please site the relevant statutes. Please also compare the administrative process the FAA uses for enforcement actions with federal criminal proceedings which may result in fines and imprisonment. AC's are often sited in judicial proceedings (usually against pilots). While they aren't regulatory in nature, they support the FAA's intentions. As a pilot, if you dare to violate an AC you risk facing the wrath of some creative FAA inspector armed with his book of woe. -Ben This message is intended only for the use of the Addressee and may contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please erase all copies of the message and its attachments and notify Space Imaging immediately. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
Hi JD, It's the FAA's opinion that we should know about the rules, NOTAMs, etc and should find out by our self. There have been several postings on RCUniverse about the subject and the FAA individual say the info (i.e. the AC) is out there and it's our responsibility to find it. Typical beurocrat! I know it sounds ridiculous but that's how they operate. I asked about the AC and I also was told to go find it myself even though this person is a member of my club. Happy flying, Jim RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
What really bites is if they do enforce the 400' limit how we going to fly our scale ships. I myself have a 4.5m Discus, 5.3m DG 1000, and a RnR SB-XC. imagine winching off at 399' and stay at or below the 400' level for an hour flight. I tried th launch and kick off about 400' I had trouble trying to find any lift at that hight. Let alone stay up longer than 3min. There must be Scale Sailplane Pilots out there with enough connections to help enlighten the FAA, and make it possible to have a club site listed and approved for higher altitudes. As I do not know how to go about this I'm sure someone does whether he wants to get involved or not hes out there somewhere. I for one do not want to be limited to 400' -- Ken York County Soaring Lighthorse Team YCS Silence is Golden RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
On 1/17/05 17:38 Lighthorse wrote: What really bites is if they do enforce the 400' limit how we going to fly our scale ships. I sincerely doubt that they ever will, and it is questionable what they would do in the first place. What I would do is to make sure I did not attract attention to myself!! If you are not flying in the area of full size traffic and the risk of that happening is low, I would not lose a lot of sleep over this. ~~~ Bill Malvey RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
Using the Skymelody, Flying the SB-XC, by RnR, I reached 1500m, Way to high, When I brought the plane down The last reading from that fine German girl was 650m, almost immediately after the plane blew up. according to RnR and xcsoaring I was in excess of 150 mph and flutter took over. Hence I am learning safer ways to bring my plane down from high altitudes so that I do not do the same with the sister ship. On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:50:05 +, Mark Wales [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Those of you out there flying with altimitters. How high have you flown and with what sailplane? Myself: In Aug 1995 my Windsong hit 3740 ft AGL. Never want to try that again. Mark Soaring Is Life!! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Ken York County Soaring Lighthorse Team YCS Silence is Golden RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
3999 ft. 2004 Nats cross contry scale..Pegasus tow plane Johnny - Original Message - From: Mark Wales [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 3:50 PM Subject: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject Those of you out there flying with altimitters. How high have you flown and with what sailplane? Myself: In Aug 1995 my Windsong hit 3740 ft AGL. Never want to try that again. Mark Soaring Is Life!! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 - Release Date: 1/12/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 - Release Date: 1/12/2005 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
On 1/17/05 17:51 Johnny Berlin wrote: 3999 ft. 2004 Nats cross contry scale..Pegasus tow plane I wish I had your eyes. Assuming no slant range on the plane, that is like looking at a 1/4-inch line from 10 feet away. And that would be the wingspan!! ~~~ Bill Malvey RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
I should have said, Launched from a winch. -- Ken York County Soaring Lighthorse Team YCS Silence is Golden RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
My point exactly. On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 17:47:16 -0800, Bill Malvey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/17/05 17:38 Lighthorse wrote: What really bites is if they do enforce the 400' limit how we going to fly our scale ships. I sincerely doubt that they ever will, and it is questionable what they would do in the first place. What I would do is to make sure I did not attract attention to myself!! If you are not flying in the area of full size traffic and the risk of that happening is low, I would not lose a lot of sleep over this. ~~~ Bill Malvey RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Ken York County Soaring Lighthorse Team YCS Silence is Golden RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
Last August Troy Lawicki flew his 2M Duck to 4077' feet at the 2M MOM contest. That guy has got eagle eyes. Whipped my measly 3604' with my Sapphire http://www.rcsoaring.org/newsmgr/templates/wmss.asp?articleid=62zoneid=5 Dennis Hoyle WMSS Sec / Treasurer / Web Geek _|_ | /_\ / \ \_\ /_/ '-\_/-' -Original Message- From: Johnny Berlin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 8:52 PM To: Mark Wales; soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject 3999 ft. 2004 Nats cross contry scale..Pegasus tow plane Johnny - Original Message - From: Mark Wales [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 3:50 PM Subject: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject Those of you out there flying with altimitters. How high have you flown and with what sailplane? Myself: In Aug 1995 my Windsong hit 3740 ft AGL. Never want to try that again. Mark Soaring Is Life!! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 - Release Date: 1/12/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 - Release Date: 1/12/2005 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject
Title: Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject Oh... from a winch? 7,717 feet. July 31 2004. Mark From: Lighthorse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Mon 1/17/2005 6:58 PMTo: Mark WalesCc: soaring@airage.comSubject: Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider/off subject I should have said, Launched from a winch.--KenYork County Soaring"Lighthorse" Team YCSSilence is GoldenRCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format *** This message is intended only for the use of the Addressee and may contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please erase all copies of the message and its attachments and notify Space Imaging immediately. ***
Re: [RCSE] High Altitude Glider
If you are not flying in the area of full size traffic and the risk of that happening is low, I would not lose a lot of sleep over this. (Bill Malvey) If you are out in the sticks flying one of those big scale ships you're going to look just like any other traffic to a passing plane. They should just steer out of your way (like they're supposed to do for gliders, I believe) and not give you another thought. I notice that aviation charts are marked with areas where you're likely to find sailplanes, ultralights, skydivers and so on. It doesn't seem to reserve these areas (that is, you're going to find the noted activity there and only there) but its just a warning to the user to watch for this activity. We should claim a piece of that pie, we're legitimate users of airspace too -- we've just got to get people to stop thinking of modelling as something you do with sticks of balsa, tissue and rubber bands. Martin Usher Incidentally, returning to the original subject of this thread, this site first popped some time ago, it even got its own thread in RCSE. They're Canadians, they seem to know what they're doing and it looks like a fun project for them. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
