Re: Boilers, Burners etc.
I am surprised that Ruby comes with only a safety valve and no steam gauge. Keeping an eye on the steam gauge would be the ideal way of ensuring you do not have a problem. That gives the operator at least two ways of knowing what is going on with his boiler. - Original Message - From: Mike Chaney [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 3:54 AM Subject: Re: Boilers, Burners etc. Henner suggested:- Let us assume, for some reason the safety valve fails: Any comments ? The answer is make sure it fails safe. My solution is to fit the safety valve with a test pin (normally known as the valve stem) and lift it to make sure the ball is free whilst raising steam. I also advise owners of my engines to do this with the words:- A wise engineer will check the safety valve in this way each time the locomotive is steamed from cold. Mike Chaney
Re: Re: Boilers, Burners etc.
A few weeks ago at Pine Creek we had our Railroaders Weekend/Open House and I set up some track for Ruby to run on in front of our machine shop. Actually used the tender deck for our 1914 Porter which was an ideal height. I was not so much concerned about boiler safety as I was about Ruby spitting hot water out the stack. We carried 2000 passengers that weekend and I'd guess half took the shop tour with many taking the time to check out Ruby pulling a seven car mixed train (with power to spare!). Lots and lots of kids. Before starting Ruby up, I'd have to clear the kids back a few feet to keep the hot water and oil spray off of them. At Diamond Head and other public runs, is there a concern about the hot water tossed from the stack getting on kids? In other words, its not so much a boiler failure (very rare) that is a concern to me but rather the normal water tossing nature of a steamer when its cold and first moving out (very common). Seems like the operator has to be very aware of who is near him/her before starting out. BTW, if anyone is interested I can email a picture of Ruby running that weekend. Off hand I forget how many laps it ran, but it was two solid days, 11Am to 5PM with time off only for fuel and water. The train was three LGB log cars (very nice cars too), two LGB 4 wheel flats with load, Bachman Ely-Thomas caboose, an 8 wheel coach of unknown make, and a LGB 8 wheel caboose. Interestingly, the LGB caboose had coupler problems and was not used much. The log cars were jewels and I would recommend them highly. The true link and pin works nicely and the long link I used between the first car and the engine gave me plenty of room for my big hands to reach in quickly and control the throttle on the fly. Seemed like the heavier the load the better the control was of the locomotive.It was a very short track and speed was critical. Oh well, enough rambling. I'll have a pressure gauge for next year for sure! And a bigger track. J.R. www.njmt.org - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 3:04 PM Subject: Re: Re: Boilers, Burners etc. I've been following this thread, and I'd like to put my two cents in. I've worked with full sized stationary steam engines, and thought I do not have my operator's license as yet, I'm planning to take the test some time in the not too distant future. First the fusible plugs primary job is not to extinguish the fire, but to notify the operator that a problem exist, and when it melts you'll know it. When the fusible plug melts, the first responsibility of the operator is to extinguish the fire. To understand the dangers, one must first understand the why they occur. Two things to know about water and steam. For every on pound of pressure in the system, the temperature required to create steam rises one degree Fahrenheit. At just forty psi the temperature of the water and steam is well over 250 degree, and at 100 psi, its over 312 degree. The second thing to know is that one cubic inch of water will produce over 1400 cubic inches of steam. With this in mind, when water hits a dry heated crown plate, and instantly turns to steam, the pressure in the boiler raises drastically, the crown plate which is already too hot, is usually the first failed component, forcing the steam downward, as the failure occurs, pressure in the boiler drops drastically, as the pressure drops, the temperature required to turn water to steam decreases, causing the water in the boiler to turn to steam, again 1 cubic inch of water, produces over 1400 cubic inches of steam, and the boiler is history, and no longer setting where it was, this is the primary cause of steam explosions. The biggest danger with a boiler is not the steam in it but the water within. For this reason the fusible plug needs to be sized for the boiler, so as to allow steam to escape but to fast as to greatly effect the pressure within. To me this is the reason not to use soft solder, once it starts to soften and gives a little the drop of pressure coupled with the resulting increase in the amount of steam can cause an explosion even at a lower pressure. For this reason I believe water level is a much more import than pressure, assuming a well working relief valve. Don't get me wrong, pressure is important, and I don't think I'd want to run with a pressure gauge, but watching the sight gauge is much more import than watching the pressure gauge. Ray Baughman From: Harry Wade [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/06 Mon PM 12:20:44 EDT To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Boilers, Burners etc. At 05:57 PM 10/5/03 -0400, you wrote: On the other hand, a well designed silver soldered boiler will build up a very high pressure (probably more than 10 times operating pressure). In order for a theory to hold water all conditions, components, and
Re: IR thermometer range
Years ago, Little Engines sold a temperature gauge which mounted on the backhead of the boiler and had a probe that went into the boiler some short distance. The theory was that it would give you a heads up of water level or fire condition. I guess I have wondered how on earth one could keep track of the water level in a Ruby boiler so that running could be extended. Does temperature at different locations of the back head offer a solution in some way? - Original Message - From: Ciambrone, Steve @ OS [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 11:28 AM Subject: RE: IR thermometer range Mike, I do Environmental testing for aerospace for a living which includes temperature testing and really do not see the need for such an item. It would be a nice to know number even interesting but what real use would it be?IR measurement has its problems, if you want to buy something to measure temperature, get a Digital Multimeter with a temperature probe. It will be half the price and you can use it for other things. The temperature probe will allow you to measure temperature in areas where the IR meter will not fit. Steve -Original Message- From: Mike Eorgoff [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 6:27 AM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: IR thermometer range Enco has a sale on IR thermometers. They have two max temps for sale, 600F 1000F at increasing prices. Since 1000F is less than what is needed for heat treat monitoring and some brazing, would the 600F model be high enough to determine non-flame temperatures on our small models. Like how hot is the flue gas, how hot are the cylinders, how hot is the outside of the boiler. Basically, everything other than the flame temperature. Mike Eorgoff
Portable Track in NJ
Does any one have a portable track in New Jersey that could be set up in September at the Pine Creek RR's Railroaders Weekend? This is an annual event that we have been doing for 20 years or so. We do have some layouts (electric) that are set up and one push train that little kids love. Gauge 1 live steam would be fantastic. Thanks! J.R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Collection
Save your money and go find a small museum some place that could use your talents! Here in NJ there just aren't loads of retired machinists around anymore. Besides, you can work on equipment that other wise is unaffordable, such as this Crown Metals mess. By the way, Pine Creek could use some machinist help on our 3' gauge mogul. Side rod brasses are next. Anyone in NJ/PA/NY area have a decent size lathe to turn something about 5 inches in diameter? We have the material in house right now. Just out of curiosity, and this is a long shot, Pine Creek does a Railroaders Weekend each year the weekend after Labor Day. Does anyone in the NJ area have a portable track for Gauge 1? I was thinking about setting one up, but I just don't have the time. We have a decent amount of room. I'd have to know more about the boiler issues as well. We are in a state park and of course with the full size boilers fall under state inspection. If someone can figure this out, this could be an annual event. Thanks! J.R. www.njmt.org - Original Message - From: Gary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:44 PM Subject: Collection Is anyone organizing a collection so joint ownership can occur? My retirement doesn't even amount to a pewter parachute much the golden parachute that would easily afford such a steam engine! http://www.wisconsinrailroading.com/forsale.htm Set's the dream apparatus going doesn't it?! There are clubs that own expensive sailplanes and yachts . . . Gary - Running trains over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor
Re: Live Steam 4-4-0 for sale - complete with track and accessories
There's a whole lot of ugliness in this world! Probably not a bad price though. Not sure how I'd get it in my basement though. J.R. - Original Message - From: Kevin Strong [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 3:42 AM Subject: Live Steam 4-4-0 for sale - complete with track and accessories Bored with your Accucraft shay? Tired of chasing Asters around small ovals all day long? Want to get more realism out of your live steam experience? Then you need to click here!!! http://www.wisconsinrailroading.com/forsale.htm Yes, that's right - for a mere quarter million dollars, you can buy a 4 bedroom 2.5 bath house in beautiful...oops, wrong list... You can buy a beautiful 1965 vintage 4-4-0 live steam locomotive, complete with nearly 4000 feet of track, two passenger cars, and a caboose. This oil/propane fired beauty is sure to please even the most discerning live steam enthusiast. Easy to reach controls make running this locomotive a dream. No more flipping up the cab roof to reach the throttle. Want to install radio control? No problem! There's plenty of room! Don't miss this once in a lifetime opportunity to own the ultimate in live steam! (And if you figure out a way to bring it to Diamondhead this winter...grin) Disclaimer - I have nothing to do with this, I just saw this on another list, and thought I'd pass it along. Later, K
Re: Materials compatibility
Tony D: Fantastic write up. Simply fantastic. I am amazed at how things are the same from full sized down to Gauge 1. Especially the delay or dwell time you talk about. Prior to heading into the curve on the smaller full sized engines we run, you have to give it some throttle or you die in the curve. The shay is the most instantly reactive, our 4-4-0T has the longest dwell.The diesels (25ton and 55 ton GE diesel electrics) are real dogs. Throttle must be provided before hitting the full impact of the curve or there is a noticeable slow down.I believe this is due in part to the time it takes for the relays to kick in as the generator RPMs come up. Very mushy, unless you really give the throttle a pull. Great write up. Many thanks. J.R. - Original Message - From: Anthony Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 3:34 PM Subject: Re: Materials compatibility Hi JR, Really good feedback, and I recognise many parrallel actions and reactions in my 10mm scale coal burners. I run two coal burners, one is controlled 'by hand, which has only two controls, one for throttle and one for the blower, with a slip eccentric controlling forward and reverse. Has a dummy Walschearts valve gear. The second engine is radio controlled, with working Walschearts valve gear, and R/C controls for the throttle, blower, Johnson Bar and cylinder drain cocks. Also have an Aster U1 which also has full Walschearts valve gear, hand controlled, and can be run on coal or alcohol. With the slip eccentric engine, without radio control, after firing up to 80PSI and with a red hot fire, I add 2-3 loads of coal before release. The running technique is to use both wide throttle (1/2 turn open) throttle, and 1/4 turn blower for starting off with 6-7 coaches, and once under way, reduce throttle to 1/8 turn on throttle and 1/16 turn on the blower. This gives a steady speed with enough throttle and blower, to pull the load out of the tighter bends after natural slowing, but not allow an out of control speed on the straights, heading for the curves. So almost a set and release driving method. When the pressure drops to 30-35 lbs, which is typically after 3-4 laps of my 300' track. I stop the engine, load 2-3 loads of coal, open up the blower for approx. minute or so, build pressure to 45-50psi, close blower to 1/16 turn and release again. I have one really tight curve which brings the engine to almost a standstill, but the blast increases greatly under this load, and pulls the load through the curve and up to straight line speed again, till the next curve. With the UI, a 4 cyl. compound with Walschearts and hand controlled. The Johnson bar is set at full position, with throttle 1/2 turn open and blower at 1/8 to start off. Once under way, and after approx 200', the engine really takes off as all the cylinders warm up. So requires cutting the Johnson bar to approx 40% cut-off, closing blower to 1/32 turn and 1/8 throttle to achieve the same constant speed as above. However running on alcohol does not give the really noisy blast when pulling out of the curves. The U1 is a really quiet engine for its size. Engine will cruise at 40-50psi for several laps before pressure drops as the alcohol runs out. However the R/C Controlled coal burner with Walschearts is a totally different animal. It has a hand throttle which can be pre-set according to starting and running load, before release. This hand throttle remains open at all times in pre-set position while running. The R/C control on the Johnson bar, for forward, nuetral and reverse are infinately notchable on the left hand control stick. The throttle and blower are controlled on the right hand control stick, with the initial 1/4 of stick movement controlling the blower, the next 2-3 notches control the cylinder drain cocks, and remaining stick movement controls the throttle. Which is also infinately notchable. At firing up, the hand throttle is closed, R/C throttle closed, and R/C blower is opened when pressure reaches 45psi. At 80-90psi at start-off, the Johnson bar is set in fully open position, the throttle is opened through the blower position and cuts it off. The drain cocks are opened through 2-3 notches, to blow down steam and water and then throttle opened more to move off. As the load is taken up, I reduce the Johnson bar by approx 10%, and back off on the throttle. As speed is built up, I reduce the Johnson bar setting again to approx 50%. Typical running with 7 coaches and 50lb load is 1/2 throttle and 50% on Johnson bar. With the R/C notchable increments, it is surprising what affect 1 or two notches to the throttle and/or the Johnson bar makes, and the amount of balance one can achieve and maintain. Thereby actually driving the track as opposed to set and release. Which is something never experienced in the
Re: Materials compatibility
Well, its J.R. as in junior. BTW, I met my wife during a bar fight I was in. What started the fight? Someone (a good friend of mine) called me by my real name. So don't even ask! There are three controls that I have seen that might regulate what goes up the stack. That would be the johnson bar, cylinder drains, and fire thickness. There are also mechanical issues such as leaks around the smoke box door, or a crummy firebox door, not to mention the petti coat and baffles in the smoke box. I would hit the most obvious thing to me first and that is fire thickness. If the fire is too hot, use less of it. In full size practice (well light full size practice of 47 tons or so) we control the fire just as you would control the butane on your live steamer. We need a thicker, hotter fire heading up our grade, but then we want it cooler, thinner, as we come into the station and must sit for 15 minutes without safeties lifting. Timing is everything as fresh coal cools a fire before it catches. So before leaving the station we do some fire work and then as we leave, we pile on a few scoops. The fire is hottest as we get to the worst grade on our track which is also on a curve. There after we will only fix a hole or two in the fire in order to have it cooler before sitting in the station again. So I would look at how you are feeding your fire. Also the type of coal. we never get the same thing twice. Some is hotter than others batches. At a $100 per ton, you'd think you could get consistent coal quality, but you can't. We use about a half ton each weekend. The johnson barin full size practice, you can beat the living crap out of the fire by running in the corner (full forward or reverse). Its fine for first moving, but then the engineer must hook it up in order to cushion the running gear of the engines. At the same time, the draft the fire sees is reduced as less steam is used, thus less up the stack and less draft. Leaving it in the corner can make the fire actually jump on the grates. Much like shifting your car. Response in your car is great doing 60mph in 1st gear but its a bitch on the engine and fuel economy. Even under a heavy load, we hook it up to cushion the engines. I have run our shay hauling two steam locomotives behind me, one with the brakes on (smart ass was trying to stall me), and a full train (coach, open car, caboose), with the Shay hooked almost all the way up to cushion the engines. Opening the fire box door sounded like a 747 taking off, the fireman shoveling a steady stream of the crap we called coal (others would call it dust) at that time. And we made steam all the way up the grade. Awesome actually, the engine even chugged a little. (Shays with diamond stacks don't talk much, just sort of a steady grind) But again, if the safeties keep going off, the fire is just too thick. As you know to drain the water from the cold cylinders you have cylinder drains. It fascinates me to watch gallons and gallons of water pour from the cylinders of our Baldwin when warming them up. At times one drain will stick open and you can see the difference in the fire's performance. But it is not a proper thing to do and again you loose some of the cushion you get when hooking up, thus hurting the engines and running gear. Sitting in the station, trying to keep the safeties from going off, I will crack the fire box door just a bit, maybe a 1 inch opening. This makes a big difference. Again, I'm not too familiar in gauge one coal firing, but from what I have heard, I would look at fire thickness and johnson bar position. Two very simple items to control that in real life, are controlled on a regular basis by the engine crew. As far as hot coals in the ash pan, that is very common. The pan should be made so that air can get in, but ash can not roll out. Been there, done that with several fires. At night, I have seen diesels spu more sparks than a coal fired locomotive. Ah! Another control device.damn I forgot this one. Do you have any kind of damper on your ash pan??? On our shay and Lady Edith, we can control the amount of air coming in under the fire with dampers. I would slightly adjust this (less air) and again it is something easier to mess with than nozzles and such. you can also adjust for load and track conditions, just like the real thing. Hope that helps a little! J.R. www.njmt.org - Original Message - From: Geoff Spenceley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 8:12 PM Subject: Re: Materials compatibility Tony, Interesting, JR May had some very good comments, J R?? is that James Robert, John Richard, Jack Roger or what?? Anyway, a friend and I often thought of a control valve to modulate the amount of steam that is admitted to the exhaust nozzle from the cyls, just as the blower can be controlled, this would really give one control and economy. If one wasn't too
Re: Materials compatibility
As Keith pointed out, the screens and baffles I am referring to are in the smoke box. - Original Message - From: Anthony Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 6:58 PM Subject: Re: Materials compatibility Hi JR, I agree, I did not really want to have to put a screen inside the petticoat, unless a last resort, and already feared it may affect the path of the nozzle blast. So I just will have to back off on the blower a little, and just enjoy the sparks as opposed to the 1/8+ size cinders. At 10mm scale, did the 1/1 scale engine really throw out 4 cinders if firebox screens were not fitted?. I do not recall having to duck from these, even when climbing Shap Summit and 18 coaches on. I do not recall seeing screens per se', inside the fireboxes either, only the arches or fireplates. Perhaps these are the screens you refer too?. I have thought of trying a temporary fireplate to my 10mm coal engines though. Regards, Tony D. At 04:24 PM 3/31/03 -0500, JR May wrote: The screening on a full size locomotive was not below the petticoat. That is just a bad place for it and would hinder draft way too much. In the smoke box there are screens and baffles that catch the cinders which gives more surface area for the screening. Check the Locomotive Dictionary for a picture or I can scan it for you. A diamond stack might be another approach which has a funnel like thing in the base of the diamond which catches many of the cinders and they fall to a collection spot in the stack. Bottom line? Cinders are a fact of life, even with baffles and screens. I'd risk a fire or two myself! It makes it more interesting. - Original Message - From: Geoff Spenceley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 3:17 PM Subject: Re: Materials compatibility Tony, Any discussion of coal, blowers and exhaust nozzles is always worth discussion. Firstly, I would hazard a guess that cinders (in pieces of eight?) from the chimney would be more likely be a problem with the smaller scales. You write blower, do you mean the exhaust nozzle too, or just the blower? I have a few problems with cinders on the 3/4 scale but only one occurrence of any significance was a few years ago with an OS Porter, the cinders caught my hair on fire and started a small grass fire--the engine was working hard and the nozzle blast caused the cinders to fly from the stack. It was great! The stainless steel mesh may work might work but I wouldn't bother--even the prototypes ( according to Steam World) would blow out cinders when working hard. It's probably those heavy JM coaches you haul with the Duchess. On the other hand is the exhaust nozzle the right size--should it be enlarged--or reduced? One suggestion, if you can stand the departure from realism, would be to have a spark arrester you can insert in the chimney after steam is up, like a piece of stainless steel tube with a SS screen--the tube could be a tight fit--but would that interfere with the draught--( slurp)? Well time to experiment! You can Americanize a small pwrt of the Duchesss! In closing, I say: Let the sparks fly, or, Let the FIRE Fall as we said in Yosemite yesteryear when the fire was dropped from Glacier Point! Geoff Hi Geoff, Of course, they were pieces of eight. Just using a little poetic licence relative to the correct lapping method you described. Question:- If I start getting 1/8 size red hot coals being thrown out of the chimney, of the Duchess, does this mean the blower draught is a little strong!?. (Joke, but true). I now think I may need to place a piece of stainless steel mesh inside the bottom of the petticoat, primarily to keep such sparkies inside the smokebox, but it also needs to sit below the suction fan nozzle at fire-up. However, the mesh may also affect the path of the blower jet and disperse it before it enters the petticoat, thereby minimising its intended affect. Have you experienced a similar problem from your large scale, Britannia?, or are you waiting to set your real estate on fire yet first?. Any thoughts?. Regards, Tony D. At 03:06 PM 3/28/03 -0800, Geoff Spenceley wrote: Ello Tony, Trust you to be a smart alec--I thought they were pieces of eight!! Well, you have the Duchess and the Britannia, so you must know! Cheers, Geoff.
Re: Materials compatibility
The screening on a full size locomotive was not below the petticoat. That is just a bad place for it and would hinder draft way too much. In the smoke box there are screens and baffles that catch the cinders which gives more surface area for the screening. Check the Locomotive Dictionary for a picture or I can scan it for you. A diamond stack might be another approach which has a funnel like thing in the base of the diamond which catches many of the cinders and they fall to a collection spot in the stack. Bottom line? Cinders are a fact of life, even with baffles and screens. I'd risk a fire or two myself! It makes it more interesting. - Original Message - From: Geoff Spenceley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 3:17 PM Subject: Re: Materials compatibility Tony, Any discussion of coal, blowers and exhaust nozzles is always worth discussion. Firstly, I would hazard a guess that cinders (in pieces of eight?) from the chimney would be more likely be a problem with the smaller scales. You write blower, do you mean the exhaust nozzle too, or just the blower? I have a few problems with cinders on the 3/4 scale but only one occurrence of any significance was a few years ago with an OS Porter, the cinders caught my hair on fire and started a small grass fire--the engine was working hard and the nozzle blast caused the cinders to fly from the stack. It was great! The stainless steel mesh may work might work but I wouldn't bother--even the prototypes ( according to Steam World) would blow out cinders when working hard. It's probably those heavy JM coaches you haul with the Duchess. On the other hand is the exhaust nozzle the right size--should it be enlarged--or reduced? One suggestion, if you can stand the departure from realism, would be to have a spark arrester you can insert in the chimney after steam is up, like a piece of stainless steel tube with a SS screen--the tube could be a tight fit--but would that interfere with the draught--( slurp)? Well time to experiment! You can Americanize a small pwrt of the Duchesss! In closing, I say: Let the sparks fly, or, Let the FIRE Fall as we said in Yosemite yesteryear when the fire was dropped from Glacier Point! Geoff Hi Geoff, Of course, they were pieces of eight. Just using a little poetic licence relative to the correct lapping method you described. Question:- If I start getting 1/8 size red hot coals being thrown out of the chimney, of the Duchess, does this mean the blower draught is a little strong!?. (Joke, but true). I now think I may need to place a piece of stainless steel mesh inside the bottom of the petticoat, primarily to keep such sparkies inside the smokebox, but it also needs to sit below the suction fan nozzle at fire-up. However, the mesh may also affect the path of the blower jet and disperse it before it enters the petticoat, thereby minimising its intended affect. Have you experienced a similar problem from your large scale, Britannia?, or are you waiting to set your real estate on fire yet first?. Any thoughts?. Regards, Tony D. At 03:06 PM 3/28/03 -0800, Geoff Spenceley wrote: Ello Tony, Trust you to be a smart alec--I thought they were pieces of eight!! Well, you have the Duchess and the Britannia, so you must know! Cheers, Geoff.
Re: Odious practices continue
Ok, I take full and open responsibility for bringing in the kiddie term of cow catcher. I just wasn't sure the international crowd on the board would fully conjure up the image I was trying to convey. I have since been flogged, keel hauled, and beaten about the head and shoulders with a fine rubber hose. (Hmmm, I might actually enjoy that last one!) I lay awake at night staring at the ceiling thinking My God what have I done! Any way, my own experience is that a good solid breast beam, at slow speed with a 1920 Baldwin, handled the tail end of a stationary Subaru just fine. The pilot never entered into the equation. It was a gentle, slow motion dance-like-sequence as the car ever so slowly was brushed aside, locomotive wheels solidly locked up. The round ends of the beam never even left much of a mark on the car. The owner had thought he had cleared the track when he came in and parked. He was wrong. 47 tons of solid American iron taking on 1 ton of tin. Then there was this garbage truck. Never mind. Have a good laugh guys. J.R. - Original Message - From: Trent Dowler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 12:49 AM Subject: Re: Odious practices continue ~~ good humor mode, very much: ON ~~ Hello. My name is Trent, and I use kiddie terms. gasp I wasn't the first to use the term cow-catcher in this thread, but I've called it that most of my life, and will probably die calling it that. I sort of like the comical picture it conjures up of cows being whisked along the rails, eyes big, jaws dropped, tails flipping along behind, and their hooves tangled up in the contraption. big, BIG grin I'll make another attempt to find the Shay book that you mentioned. I've never been able to find it and had actually forgotten about it. A refrigerator at 90 mph?! I sincerely hope no human harm occurred because I would really feel bad after laughing so hard. I know a couple of youngsters who once built a snowman on a Union Pacific mainline. My sources tell me that the moment of impact was quite spectacular. Later, Trent Keith Taylor wrote: As unimaginable a thing as a Shay with a wooden pilot (please let us try to stay away from the kiddie term cow catcher) might be, there are examples of them in real life, and NOT for Hollywood!
Re: Odious practices continue
That is just plain sick. Yuk. A shay with a pilot is wacky looking to begin with due to the off set boiler and high framing. Pinkish red? That's an engine that will forever live with shame! - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 2:47 AM Subject: Odious practices continue Two weeks ago the BBC spent a week at Railtown 1897 in Jamestown, California filming one of a four part history series, the specific one at Railtown is about the completion of the Trans-continental RR. Can't figure out why they didn't go to Promontory - maybe the weather wasn't what they wanted. As it turns out, of the three operating steam locomotives at Railtown, the 1891 Rogers built 4-6-0 (#3) is undergoing major boiler restoration, the 1922 Baldwin 2-8-0 (#28) is being retubed (it was headed to Baltimore before the roof disaster and cancelation of the planned festivities there). The only operating steam locomotive available this month is the 1922 Shay (#2). As a result, Brits will soon be regaled with the epic driving of the Golden Spike and the locomotives will be the shay, with a cow catcher attached to the foot boards and the pilot painted blue to represent one of the locomotives and faced in the other direction, the pilot is a pinkish-red. Is anyone planning on redoing their Catatonic to replicate this scene! Dave Connery
Re: Odious practices was Pine Creek RR
Hold the phone there! I kind of like antlers! - Original Message - From: Harry Wade [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 9:58 PM Subject: Odious practices was Pine Creek RR At 07:23 PM 3/19/03 -0500, you wrote: And I hate cow catchers I feel sort of the same way about painted white stars on the axle ends and moose antlers on the smokebox. Regards, Harry
Re: Pine Creek RR
Hmmm, can you picture a shay without foot boards? Yuk! I have a picture of the QTL #6 with a pilot and it really looks odd, in part because the engine is so fat compared to the rails. The pilot takes on a Hitler mustache kind of look. At some point the 6 lost it, but not sure when or why. Any one have some full sized moose antlers for sale? And I hate cow catchers with a vengeance. Although the 6 had one at one time, it lost it at some point for a hand some foot board. A Cow Catcher is not the thing.but a correct Pilot would not be out of line at all! Not a cheapo deal made from angle iron, like the 50's Daisy Picker lines used. But a correct from Baldwin drawings in Oak would be very attractive. Not to mention that if the FRA were to ever get jurisdiction, your foot boards would be goe in a blink! (OSHA probably would faint if they saw foot boards! They have been gone from Main line RR's for 30 years now)
Re: Odious practices was Pine Creek RR
What you find is that nearly everything can be prototypical. I remember back years ago when I used to get Model RR magazine that they had a feature each month of things that in theory were not prototypical but they would show a picture of a real RR using that item. The one that sticks with me is the straight bridge with curved track on it. I think it was in Chicago some place. Engines under go change. Our shay looks like much different that it did the day it rolled out of Lima. The wood cab was replaced and it got a diamond stack, both required by law in the forests that it ran in. Our Irish engine was painted all sorts of colors, driven in part by politics of the North/South border region. She has also had three boilers, the last one installed in the late 1920s.Our #26 is on its second boiler also, replaced in 1925. The rear headlight on the 26 is mounted on top of the cab roof today, but it belongs under the roof according to pictures from Virginia. I broke the lens with a shovel handle and we moved it back up on top of the roof. BTW, we do have a radio controlled 55 ton GE as used by US Steel. So yes, radio control of your live steamers is prototypical also. No kidding. The locomotive is marked with front and rear markings so the operator knew which way he should go when on the ground operating it while in a fire suit in the mill. Any thing is prototypical! Enjoy! J.R. - Original Message - From: steve boylan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 8:33 AM Subject: Re: Odious practices was Pine Creek RR Harry wrote: And I hate cow catchers I feel sort of the same way about painted white stars on the axle ends and moose antlers on the smokebox. But ... but ... the PROTOTYPE did it!! What more excuse do you need? :-) - - Steve
Re: Pine Creek RR/C-25
I have looked at this data (the online C-25 drawings which are fantastic) in the past as well as the various models on the market and the counter balances on our Quincy 6 just look larger. Much larger. As the wheels rotate the rods nearly touch the ground, say at a crossing. The counter weights as they come around almost do the same thing. I have read some place that this style locomotive was not used in snow and icy weather as it would derail itself as the weights came around. I believe it. I know similar engines are in Colorado, but I wonder what kind of ground clearance they have? Granted we will put new tires on the engine, but that will only give us maybe an inch increase in rod height. On our web site one of the pictures shows us doing tires for our Porter. (www.njmt.org) - Original Message - From: mart.towers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 7:16 PM Subject: Re: Pine Creek RR/C-25 - Original Message - From: Vance Bass [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 5:00 PM Subject: Re: Pine Creek RR but what is the outside frame job? Art, that's the Quincy Torch Lake No. 6, one of the sisters to the Crystal River 103/DRGW 375 (the C-25 class). regards, -vance- Too, too modest to mention your own work in cyberdocumenting the C-25 for 1/20 scalers! Art
Re: Survey is posted
Great page you have there. Fantastic. Did the survey too. Seemed simple enough. Look forward to the responses. - Original Message - From: Chuck Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 9:29 AM Subject: Survey is posted Hi Folks, The survey is posted. If you would like to take part, please go to http://home.twcny.rr.com/twinlakesrw and click on the survey link on the left side. When I get enough responses, I will post the results and then update it thereafter. Pass the word. I truly would like to see what my peers are doing and what they want from future live steam offerings. My Best, Chuck Charles W. Walters Twin Lakes Railway CEO http://home.twcny.rr.com/twinlakesrw
Re: Odious practices was Pine Creek RR
H, a radio controlled GG-1? You could have ridden in the bar car and run it from there! - Original Message - From: Keith Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 3:37 PM Subject: Re: Odious practices was Pine Creek RR Engines under go change. Our shay looks like much different that it did the day it rolled out of Lima. The wood cab was replaced and it got a diamond stack, both required by law in the forests that it ran in. J.R. The Shay got it's new cab because the old wooden one burned! The Ely Thomas No. 5, which worked along side the No. 6 at Jetsville, W. Va, always had a wooden cab, and does today as well. But yes, the spark arresting stack was a West Virgina Law, and that's why Cass has the identical stack on it's coal burning locomotives today. BTW, we do have a radio controlled 55 ton GE as used by US Steel. So yes, radio control of your live steamers is prototypical also. No kidding. The locomotive is marked with front and rear markings so the operator knew which way he should go when on the ground operating it while in a fire suit in the mill. The Front and Rear markings are not just for radio Control use, but are an ICC and later FRA mandated marking as some locomotives, like GE 44 tonners, have identical looking fronts and rears, and some RR's like the NW ran their diesel locomotives long hood leading. All FRA inspectable locomotives have the front marked so that a brakeman will know which direction is which for giving hand signals. Most are merely marked with a F on one end beam, but that is the officially designated front of the locomotive. Without it, how would you tell which end of a GG-1 is the front? Keith
Re: Pine Creek RR
As others have pointed out, that is the Quincy Mining Company #6, a 70 ton, 1912 outside frame 2-8-0 built by Baldwin and similar to the Bachman model. I believe the Bachman model is actually a 30 gauge locomotive and not nearly as beefy as the Big 6 as we call it here. The Big 6 will be the next engine to go in for a full rebuild by our shop crew to include a boiler overhaul to comply with the new NBIC Appendix C requirements. It will also get new tires and a whole new tender. It is a beast which will no doubt scare many little kids as it rumbles through our station area. And like the big gauge 1 live steamers, clearances are tight through our station area and shop doors due to the width of the cylinders and cab. Look for it to run in the 2007 time frame. Feel free to come out and help too! Again, if in Jersey, look me up and I'll give you a tour. - Original Message - From: mart.towers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 11:06 AM Subject: Re: Pine Creek RR - Original Message - From: JR May [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 3:49 PM Subject: Pine Creek RR every locomotive we own.However, the person who put up the pictures did not include captions, so if you have any questions, please let me know. Great site - but what is the outside frame job? 2-6-0 or 2-8-0, locos pic 14. Cuban refugee? Art Walker
Re: G1MRA Newsletter and Journal #196
Its here!! Arrived yesterday in New Jersey!! - Original Message - From: mart.towers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 7:09 PM Subject: Re: G1MRA Newsletter and Journal #196 I checked today with our printers distributers. G1MRA NLJ #196 went down the chute on 15 January. So, transpondies, for those of you on surface delivery, it may be a few days yet Art Walker Editor - Original Message - From: James Curry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 10:47 PM Subject: Re: G1MRA Newsletter and Journal #196 Hi Guys: I made some inquiries. I don't yet know when the magazines were put in the mail in England however, checking on the Royal Mail's website they quote an 8 weeks window for 'outside Europe' surface deliveries. Which means a 1-1-03 mailing is due this week. A 1-15 mailing isn't due yet. Jim
Re: Steam domes, bushes glasses
Here at Pine Creek, we have always figured God was a Railfan since it rarely rains on our special events. www.njmt.org - Original Message - From: Dave Cole [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 9:14 PM Subject: Re: Steam domes, bushes glasses At 8:53 PM -0500 3/3/03, mdenning wrote: what 'should' it have read!?!?! Michael Florida USA Iron Nut I think this is a more atheistic solution i think he was going for aesthetic (relating to the beauty of something, usually a work of art), but he missed and the spell-checker gave him atheistic (relating to one who does not believe in God or gods). \dmc -- ^^^ Dave Cole Gen'l Sup't: Grand Teton Everglades Steam Excursion Co. Pacifica, Calif. USA http://45mm.com/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ATTEND THE NATIONAL SUMMER STEAMUP IN SACRAMENTO, JULY 17-20, 2003 For more information, visit the web site at http://www.summersteamup.com ^^^
Re: Steam domes, bushes glasses
Hmmm, again from the prototype world, the pressure gauge is generally taken off a high spot in the boiler. My experience has been off the high side of the barrel with a pig tail and shut off valve. This would measure the actual STEAM pressure of the boiler. In taking my boiler license tests here in New Jersey, one question which is asked is where is the greatest pressure in a boiler? Its at the lowest point in the mud ring where the pressure of the boiler and the WEIGHT of the water combine to give you a higher pressure. I suppose that if you figure various water levels as conditions change while running that the pressure at the bottom of the boiler may vary. I suppose we could burn up a lot of electrons on this issue alone. Also, at the bottom of the boiler there are very few valves. In my mind, you want as few things as possible to go wrong down that low as if you loose a valve down there, you loose your water and can expose your crown sheet. I would assume too that the water at the low point in the boiler is pretty freakin' hot. At 150 psi I think the boiling temperature is around 400 degrees (or something along those lines). The pig tail I thought was to protect the gauge from the heat of the steam so that pressure causes the little tube (what is the name of that damn tube) to move and not heat expansion. At least in my mind, the pressure gauge needs to stay high, at least from a full size stand point. Now I'm going to have to go home tonight and look up the name of that stinken tube inside the gauge. Sleepless in Jersey Original Message - From: Mike Chaney [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 3:00 PM Subject: Re: Steam domes, bushes glasses Ken asked Harry:- Could the bottom water glass bush in the backhead also service the pressure gauge? ...and Harry replied:- It could but you don't want it to. The gauge is best taken off a high (dry) bush, or the fountain. snip . and Ken got confused:- I am a bit confused by this. On one hand it makes sense to take the pressure of the steam directly. But, aren't gauges required to be separated from the steam through the use of a siphon? If the gauge needs to read water then why not take the pressure from the wet part of the boiler.. Good thinking, Ken, but we've always done it that way. When I first started in this steam lark, I was advised to put some steam oil in the syphon to keep the steam away from the pressure gauge. I keep forgetting to do it, of course, but I don't think I've lost a pressure gauge as a result. Mike
Re: Alisan plume?
In full size engines, a hole in the coal fire will create a white wisp in the stack. And yes, wetter steam will give a whiter plume and will be VERY white if pulling water. Messy too. I wonder if you run the water a little lower, is the exhaust still as white? Is it a mushy sound or sharp? I have been reading with interest in these emails of the black magic needed to keep these butane and alcohol fires running and now I am wondering if you might be dragging too much cool air in from under the fire. In full size coal burning engines, the only air drawn in through the fire passes through the coal fire itself and even working hard, with injector on full bore, we can make steam while heading up hill. That would be in a '27 Shay and a '20 Baldwin 2-6-2 with a three car passenger train. In other words, on real engines, the harder it works, the hotter the fire gets. I sounds like this will not hold true in the little engines. But can it? On a full size engine the fire itself must be changed in proportion to load and weather conditions.Working hard, the fire must be relatively thick and even thicker in winter where the cold air has quite an effect. Sitting in the station or running with a lighter train, the fire can be much thinner. We also use dampers and the fire box door itself to control the heat of the fire. So some how, in looking at the miniature engines, is there a way to regulate heat of the fire beyond messing with the blower? It sounds like you are all dealing with a fixed fire (a fixed amount of heat produced) and you must adopt your operation around that.The fireman on a prototype locomotive was able to regulate the amount of heat (within reason) in response to conditions. I'd look at a clear stack while working hard as the ultimate goal and a good way to measure changes to the fire. Does anyone have an engine they'd like to sell to me cheap so I can experiment for myself? I have a DEE casting set, but have not had time to work on it. www.njmt.org - Original Message - From: steve speck [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 10:20 PM Subject: Re: Alisan plume? I have a Mikado and a RH #24. The #24 always has a plume but the Mikado seldom does. I have ben told the reason is that the #24 is giving off much more saturated (wet) steam, while the Mikado gives off much drier steam. I guess it makes since, the Mikado has 5 flues pulling fire through them via draft while the #24 only has one gas fired flue. Even though the #24 has a great looking plume, the Mikado blows much more through the stack and is much hotter. I would think that while the wetter steam looks better out the stack, the drier steam is more efficient. Any other thoughts on this would be appreciated.Steve. At 05:38 PM 2/25/03 -0800, you wrote: OK, another naieve question. The Steamlines Shay, Ted's Roundhouse 7/8th scale Porter, and the Frank S all have obvious plumes from the smokestack during cold weather. This Alisan Shay runs almost plume free. The pop offs offer evidence that steam is powering the critter, but only episodic plumes occur from the smoke stack and those usually when the engine starts from a stop. Any hypothesis occur to any of you, let me know. Is it a real efficient engine? Does the exhaust cool too much to cause a plume or could the exhaust be too hot and the steam dry? Curious in Oregon Gary - Photos of Alisan shay look like the loco is cold except for the pop offs. http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor
Re: OT: bo museum latest pictures
Royce, I can speak for New Jersey and tell you this was a highly unusual storm. Not only was the snow deep, it was a heavy wet snow and was driven by VERY strong winds. In my town we lost the entire roof of the local bowling alley, my old high school lost part of its roof, and in the local retirement villages 100+ sun rooms were destroyed. All this occurred within a 10 miles radius of my house. In north Jersey there were several other roof collapses including one at a Wal-Mart. At least 2 people were killed at yet another collapse up north. This was a wild storm which combined weight, wind, and depth into a deadly combination. At the Museum I am part of we jacked up the heater to ensure that the snow started to melt and run off our big shop roof as soon as we knew we might have a problem with snow load. I am sure that it would have had sections (the sky lights in particular) come down if we had not done that. No way to anticipate something like this. J.R. www.njmt.org - Original Message - From: Royce Woodbury [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 4:28 PM Subject: Re: OT: bo museum latest pictures It would seem a crime that the roundhouse wasn't designed to withstand anticipatable snow loads without risking irreplaceable artifacts (trains). But maybe these snow loads were outside the 100 year limits. Were they ? royce in SB Dave Cole wrote: folks: the bo museum has released a set of pictures from inside the roundhouse, that give you a graphic idea of the extent of the damage that the crash of the snow-laden roof caused. http://www.borail.org/roundhouse_restoration/ \dmc
Re: Alisan Shay
I tend to work with the full size stuff, so please bear with me on this as I am not familiar with the small scales. Anyway, do these engines have petti-coat pipes in the smoke box? I'm thinking that maybe the exhaust is not traveling up the stack correctly. The petti coat pipe directs the exhaust up the stack and generally fits almost down over the exhaust nozzle. The exhaust then can not simply blow into the smoke box area, rather it is directed up the stack and providing the draft needed by the fire. Just a thought. - Original Message - From: Gary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 3:44 PM Subject: Alisan Shay A couple of questions raised by Gordon Watson's observations and recommendations: I have already realigned the blower nozzle so that draft does occur (nozzle used to be aimed at the smokebox wall). While I could make a new exhaust nozzle why not either (1) simply squeeze the nozzle to a smaller opening with pliers or (2) fill the nozzle with solder then re-drill rather than make an entirely new nozzle? I would think that a free flowing exhaust would be good. But Gordon has helped me reason that velocity of exhaust helps create needed draft. Therefore shrinking the opening would create more draft by increasing velocity of exhaust out the stack. As an observation, the fire in the Alisan Shay seems to burn noticeably better when the piston exhaust is providing draft than when the fire has no blower or no exhaust. If I compare the fire burn when using the blower, the fire is hotter when the blower is cracked than more open since the draft causes a more unsteady and more yellow flame. The electric or battery powered Aster blower produces a nice fire, but the fire is a bit better with piston exhaust draft. The fire now has a nice long blue flame for the stainless steel mesh wick, and shorter blue fires for the standard asbestos string wicks. I have not yet tried the new fiberglass wicks I bought with some other gasket supplies. After wallpaper hanging today, I will experiment with the fire a bit more. PS Gordon: To write to sslivesteam chat list use text only format and send to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gary - Wishing I was steaming trains over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor - Original Message - From: Gordon Watson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 1:04 AM Subject: Alisan Shay Gary, Ive been reading your progress with this loco.,but ive forgotten how to answer via the Small Scale Message board, so Ive done this direct. ive run qiute a few of these , and for steady slow running they need the exhaust nozzle reduced in size!. as standard they will run fast. or slow with aheavy load.and hold pressure, but wont run slow with light or no load..insufficient draft.. So remove the nozzle in the smokebox.and make a new one..from memory the existing nozzle is 2.5mm dia..start with 1.6mm[or 1/16th ] size drill and try it. you may be able to go as large as 2mm[5/64] after tuningand test..let me know how you get on. Regards Gordon Watson.
Re: Size of Accucraft K-27?
I have enjoyed the banter on the size of the K-27. I thought (maybe, maybe not) you might enjoy a similar problem the museum I am part of has with a full size 3' gauge outside frame 2-8-0 (1912 Baldwin, 70 tons) which ran at the Quincy and Torch Lake RR up in Michigan as #6. You may see it designated as a K-25. We generally run a 47 ton 2-6-2 and an assortment of diesels ranging up to 55 tons. Carry about 50,000 people per year. Anyway, when we need to move the Quincy engine, which is not yet restored, it is a major project. The cab just squeezes through our car barn and requires a track bar to pry the cab over an inch or so to clear the door, the counter weights hit the ballast in several areas of our yard trackage, and our boarding platform must be moved to clear the cylinders in the station area. I have heard stories that this engine would derail itself in snow and ice conditions when the counter balances come down, hit the ice, and lift itself up off the rails. The same problems seem to exist in the 12 :1' world as it does in the smaller scales. BTW, restoration of this engine should begin this year in an effort to return it to operation. We are currently completing a full rebuild on a 1912 Porter mogul. The web site is being updated, but if interested its at www.njmt.org. We should have an area devoted to the many NJMT locomotives soon. If anyone wants a tour, let me know. J.R. - Original Message - From: Anthony Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:49 PM Subject: Re: Size of Accucraft K-27? Hi Dave, While Jeff was running his K27 on his small radius test track at home last week, we noticed that the center mounted coupling was actually positioned over the outside rail while running the curve. Making the effective width of the engine an additional 1 wider on the curves. So although 5.75 wide in static mode, it becomes 6.75 wide when running the outside curves. I suggest the cab, particularly the outside roof line, steps out even further, but we did not check that. Jeff also had to move some of Dan Lieberwitz' model village real estate while running last Saturday. No matter the track size, someone always shows up with a larger engine!. As you are finding out already. Regards, Tony D. At 08:55 AM 2/18/03 -0800, Dave Cole wrote: jeff: when harlan barr had his k-27 over here, the first thing he did was to run the tender around the track by hand, saying that it was the tender that had torn into elements of his heavily scenicked indoor layout. perhaps that's a dimension that daniel would like as well ... \dmc At 8:04 PM -0800 2/17/03, Jeffrey Williams wrote: Mine (#461) is 5.75 wide over the cylinders as well as the width of the pilot beam. The shades on the cab are a bit wider at just a hair under 6. The stack is the tallest piece at 7.875. It's possible that other road numbers vary from this, since the cylinders are different on the other road numbers. Accucraft claims 30 minimum radius. I've run mine on 48 radius and it works fine. The two center driving axles have blind flange drivers. The tender drawbar has alternate holes for the connection to spread the distance between loco and tender on tight radii. See http://www.accucraft.com/pg-87140.htm for their web page on the K-27 live steam. It's not linked to any of their other pages === Daniel R. Fuller wrote: I am building a track and due to space limitations, I have a clearance problem. I need to know the size of the Accucraft K-27. I saw them at Diamondhead and they are huge. Real railroads had to limit engines on certain tracks, and I may need to do the same. I think that the C-16 will be ok. What is the size of the loading gauge for the K-27? Just overall height above the rails and the total width is all I need. What is the minimum radius for the K-27? Dan Fuller Carrollton, Texas -- ^^^ Dave Cole Gen'l Sup't: Grand Teton Everglades Steam Excursion Co. Pacifica, Calif. USA http://45mm.com/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ATTEND THE NATIONAL SUMMER STEAMUP IN SACRAMENTO, JULY 17-20, 2003 For more information, visit the web site at http://www.summersteamup.com ^^^
G1MRA newsletter
Any word on the latest issue of the G!MRA newsletter? Looks like the home page shows a new issue but nothing has arrived on my door step. I'm having withdrawals here! Have I missed it? J.R. - Original Message - From: James Curry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 8:07 AM Subject: Re: Larry Bangham whistle info? Tim: Ron Brown (publisher) should have an inventory of magazines that didn't sell on the initial run. Check with him for back issues. Jim
Re: DEE Locomotive Builders
Harry, Count me in (JR May) as a builder of Dee. I have the castings and the frame parts, just need to sit down and start cutting metal. Also have boiler tube that came with a bunch of parts for a live steam 1/4 scale 4-8-4 that I picked up at the local hobby store that had been buried on the bottom of a box of junk. Came away with 4 beautiful 1880s PRR coaches in that deal, although again 1/4 scale. Thanks for keeping track of the builders! J.R. - Original Message - From: Harry Wade [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 9:20 AM Subject: DEE Locomotive Builders Dick Moger (the designer) has wondered out loud how many G1MRA DEE locomotive projects there are under construction world-wide at the moment and I'm curious also. I volunteered to get a count on this side of the Pond so would anyone on the SS List from the Americas who has a DEE under construction please let me know, along with what has been done so far. Thanks, Harry Wade
Re: South African 3'6 on 45mm
For what it is worth, there is a South African live steamer for sale on ebay. I have to admit, I have never seen anything for sale on ebay from that neck of the world. Looks like a nice model also. - Original Message - From: Vance Bass [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 4:22 PM Subject: Re: South African 3'6 on 45mm Mike, I saw John's note on MyLargeScale.com about the CD. Would you say it's worth the investment? It sure looks cool! I don't know of any South African large-scale modelers, but it would certainly make sense, given that the track works out to 1:24 for them. That sure makes things easy! regards, -vance- Vance Bass Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
Re: South African 3'6 on 45mm
A live steam loco 3-1/2 inch guage coal burning with tender,built to scale of a South Africian Natele design still being used in South Africa.The model is in perfect condition built by a railway engineer,comes with spares and a drivers seat the loco will carry 8 adults the tender carrys water and coal. Item # 3109335155 Has three days left. - Original Message - From: Vance Bass [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 5:02 PM Subject: Re: South African 3'6 on 45mm I missed that auction -- can you give us an address? thanks, -vance-
Re: Loco transport
and its aluminum carrier. For the lesser informed that is 44 lbs. The big The lesser informed? Ouch! That hurt! I can't imagine trying to get a locomotive through security. Thanks for the pointers though. J.R. (of the USA)
Re: death, taxes wives
You guys are depressing! The gauge 1 magazine an issue or two ago had an interesting article on the garden railway and what would happen to it if the owner moved on by either dying or just moving. The English have a fantastic way of building garden railways but I can see the point. Once the rails are torn up, what is left? Will it be something that detracts from the value of the house like a built in swimming pool normally does in the NE USA? Long sweeping curves of solid cement might be just as bad. Just something to keep in mind as we build more of these tracks in the US. And a big hand to those who pull that magazine together! It is fantastic.. Any USA Dee updates? I need a kick in the butt to get going on mine! J.R. - Original Message - From: Geoff Spenceley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 4:25 PM Subject: Re: death, taxes wives One and all, Being old (like reaching the 80s) makes me well aware of what my family will be stuck with when my remains are shoved in the firebox of the Flying Scotsman! It becomes somewhat of an obsession and sometimes I feel I should dispose of much of it now instead of expanding my collection of toys--- which continues as I mismature! That's typical for us oldsters! I started to list all my trains and other toys on the computer but my wife does not use it. So accordingly I have listed almost everything in a legal size note book, listing date of aquisition, price, current value and liquid selling price. I have a friend in the L.S hobby who will help dispose of the trains and a son who can handle my collection of 54mm metal military figures. Other stuff can melt with me in the firebox. Incidentally, there is an advantage in listing one's collection in a note book as it gives the opportunity to visually inspect each toy as you list it! More fun!--Right? No huntin' and peckin' either. Geoff.
Re: Lathes for Live Steamers
Just one word of caution. I tend to think many people get turned off by live steam when they hear about he machinery that is required to build the locomotives. I know of a guy who built the most beautiful 3/4 Raritan you ever saw using just a 6 Atlas with a milling attachment and a decent drill press. He is not a machinist by trade either. It just shows that even with a very limited budget, beautiful models can be built. I'm one of those guys on a limited budegt, so I will stick with my beloved Sherline lathe, Burke/Sherline mill, and a 7 Potter if I need to turn something a little larger in diamter. Besides, fixing up the old stuff is half the fun! J.R.
Re: boiler insulation
Just curious, and this may be a stupid question... Our English locomotive, the Lady Edith (3' gauge, built 1887, Stephenson), came to the US with oak block lagging. We then put asbestos on it in the 1960s which we recently paid to have removed for some major boiler work. On a small locomotive, and maybe gauge 1 is too small, what about some sort of wood veneer as a lagging? Too thick? I have never read anything on using wood as lagging in model use and covered with a metal jacket. I do wish we never put asbestos on the Lady Edith. The water it holds kills the outside of the boiler. J.R. www.njmt.org - Original Message - From: Anthony Dixon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 2:51 PM Subject: Re: boiler insulation Kevin, Well, well, well!. So it was the cork burners who almost had the coal and kerosene burners kicked out of Sacremento!. Pleased of you to 'fess up after all this time. The truth will out!. Best Regards, Tony D. At 09:00 AM 10/2/02 -0600, you wrote: I've used cork without any ill effects. Later, K
Re: Lathes for Live Steamers
I know it is a bit small, but how hammered would I get if I said I love my Sherline lathe? I have done nice work on it over the past 25 years or so, both big and small pushing the limits on both ends of the spectrum. Parts are easy to get as well. I have bigger machines, but always seem to come back to the Sherline. The vertical mill attachment is not the greatest, but for vertical mill work, I bolt the Sherline head to my Burke horizontal mill using a face plate bored to fit the ram. I know its crude, but it works so darn nice. Does anyone have the Sherline mill? I suspect a lot of flex in the machine. Is that true? J.R. www.njmt.org - Original Message - From: James Curry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 3:46 PM Subject: Re: Lathes for Live Steamers Tony: I too took delivery of a HF mini-lathe. Never made a part, one look told me it wasn't up to snuff. Thank God they took it back no questions asked. Bought the Griz lathe and love it for small work. Jim
RE: Mogul or Ten Wheeler Frame plans
Here's a web site that might provide some clues on Porter Moguls: http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/porter/porter-pb.html Includes some builders photos and written dimensions. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Richard S Griffith Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 1:07 PM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: Mogul or Ten Wheeler Frame plans CWolcott, you could try to get the series of complete 10 wheeler plans that Modeltec Magazine ran during the 1980's. It was for 1.5 scale, very detailed, and if I remember correctly, it was based on an existing engine reposing in Colorado. You could also try The California State RR Museum in Sacramento, CA and the Pennsylvania RR Museum in Lancaster PA, both full of artifacts and willing to offer assistance. Also check the Live Steam Magazine for plans for the larger scales. Good luck! Dick Griffith, Connecticut On Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:55:49 -0600 CWolcott [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does anyone know where I could find a drawing of either a 4-6-0 or 2-6-0 narrow gauge loco frame? (Measured would be nice, free would be nicer still) GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
RE: Mogul or Ten Wheeler Frame plans
Where are you located? If any where around Nj you could stop in at NJMT and take measurements your self. The boiler is off the chassis you could have ready access. This is a 3' gauge 18 ton Porter mogul. Other wise, 1904 locomotive dictionary has at least one or two. I may be able to scan that for you if you do not have access to it. J.R. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of CWolcott Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 10:56 AM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Mogul or Ten Wheeler Frame plans Does anyone know where I could find a drawing of either a 4-6-0 or 2-6-0 narrow gauge loco frame? (Measured would be nice, free would be nicer still)
RE: Boiler lay-up
Finished first beer... Rich, Absolutely, we actually talked about the nitrogen concept and even the hair dryer idea. Age and design of our vessels really doesn't accommodate the nitrogen idea though. We have several nuclear guys working for us and even had assistance from Electric Boat up in New Groton. We are taking these things into the 21st century! At some point, we may look further at the nitrogen concept. Thanks for the thoughts! J.R. Hi, On the subject of how to lay up the boiler I would like to add my 2 cents worth (opening beer). I work in the nuclear power industry and we have ocasion to lay up pressure vessels while the reactor is being refueled. There are several approved methods that work well: 1) the best is to pressurize slightly with dry nitrogen after purging out all oxygen. The drawback is the cost. 2) the most common for preserving carbon steel pressure vessels is to supply them with heated air at a couple of inches water pressure and some real flow through the vessel. Think of something like a big hair dryer. These vessels are ASME Sect 11 and are subjected to hydro testing, visual and ultra sonic testing. These two methods work. Filling with de-oxiginated water is a distant third and only slightly better than doing nothing other than draining. For straight copper boilers, I think I would opt for draining at the end of the season and dry with a heat gun. Larger, I would go with the hot air as it will keep the interior dry and the exterior warm and is cheap and easy to do. Rich On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:45:40 -0500, NJMT wrote: -Just thought I'd throw on a short bio. (Feel like a new kid in school) SNIP [EMAIL PROTECTED] - -
RE: Boiler storage
True. Enough of the big stuff. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Harry Wade Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 5:40 PM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: Boiler storage At 02:15 PM 2/1/02 -0500, you wrote: Careful with the light bulb idea. All this is far afield from what we're concerned about in Ga1 but as long as we're at it, I don't think I've ever heard of anyone using a very small muffin fan to keep air circulating through a stored boiler. In 7-1/2 ga there would be openings that would be large enough and it seems to me it would do the job. It could be put on a timer to run for a while each day. Regards, Harry
RE: Boiler storage
Well, I know at least one guy who thought it better not to put it in the firebox! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Keith Taylor Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 6:45 PM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: Boiler storage J.R. List. Notice in my posting, I said to put it in the firebox. If your firebox isn't fire proof, you are in some serious trouble! Keith - Original Message - From: NJMT [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 2:15 PM Subject: Re: Boiler storage Careful with the light bulb idea. Keith will remember the guy's name, but we had a Cagney up here at a local college and he stuck a bulb under the tarp to keep it warm at night in the cold weather. You guessed it! The bulb set the tarp on fire. What a mess. No real damage but he had to repaint the engine, rewire the head light and such. - Original Message - From: Keith Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:25 AM Subject: Boiler storage - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: 5 or 2 Walt, Partial filling is the absolute worst thing you can imagine! In any water you find, there are atoms of free oxygen floating around, disolved in the water. This is oxygen not bonded to a hydrogen atom as a constiutent of water. This oxygen is released, as the water settles, right at the water line, and thus you have a super concentration of oxygen at the point where the water level is! Guess what this causes, oxidation, big time! This is a problem even when steaming, so you don't want to agravate the situation by continuing to add to the problem during storage periods. The answer to your question depends on how long it will be that you are storing the boiler for. If it will only be a short period, I would recommend filling the boiler completely to the top with water, to block out any air possible. For longer periods, while the boiler is still rather warm, blow down the boiler completely! Making sure to leave open a blower valve or throttle valve to prevent creating a vacuum. If you forget, you can severely damage your pressure gauge! You's be amazed at how strong a vacuum you can pull doing this! It will suck the Bourdon tube of your pressure gauge flat, and if the tender lines are still attached, will empty your tender into the boiler, so that the boiler you thought empty, is now full of water again! Once the boiler is empty, and dry as a result of blowing down while warm (not hot!) some folks, here in the frigid northern climes, put a medium wattage light bulb in the firebox, lighted, to keep things reasonably warm during the storage period. This has taken a little longer to tell than I'd like, but it is important. Very truly yours, Keith Taylor- East Coast Secretary International Brotherhood of Live Steamers
Not Boiler storage
I for one am looking forward to building something new like Dee. I have cleaned up the shop, even worked on completing some previously unfinished work. Have both books. Read them at least two or three times. I suspect this ring maybe the key for me to keeping the focus and not feeling like I am working by myself. Many thanks to Keith, Jim, and Harry their help so far. J.R.
RE: 5 or 2
A simple hydro (1.5 times) would have discovered the problem with this old Case. And it was OLD. We do them annually and every year another stay bolt pops. Drill it out, put in a new one, peen the snot out of it and hydro it again. Once she holds a hydro, we call the state and they come out and witness the final hydro. Keep in mind that even an empty boiler is going to rot. Condensation is a terrible enemy. You just THINK its dry. Causes pitting on the bottom of the barrel and on top of the crown sheet. Nothing you can do about it. Our shay has a new belly. The old one looked like a moon scape. And our Lady needs a new belly also. And the only way to see it is to pull all the flues out. That's one hundred plus flues. A lot of work. The new laws require a full ultra sound every five years. That's a good thing. I've been working antique boilers for 30 years. I am not complacent. Sit your backside down next to a 70 year old vessel with the Johnson bar, air brake stands and apparatus trapping you in your seat and you would be surprised how aware you are of its age and power to destroy itself! J.R. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 5:35 PM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: 5 or 2 Michael Martin wrote: I guess I didn't want to believe that individuals could be that careless or ignorant when lives other than their own were at risk. It was simply an issue of complacency. If you deal with anything on a regular basis for a long time, no matter how dangerous, the tendency is to become complacent about it. The owner of the engine in this instance was by no means new to steam power. In fact, he had been steaming for years, even decades. He became complacent and overlooked the possibility of disaster. REMEMBER, the same thing could have happened to anyone! Every single person who ever deals with anything dangerous is susceptible to making the exact same mistakes he did. He was not at all unusual, even the most conscientious and careful operator could have made the same mistakes. That is why these things require eternal vigilence.
RE: New Bio
Thanks Keith. Actually I'm only good for 300 HP. We also have a 3' gauge outside frame 2-8-0 from the Quincy mining company, 30 gauge 0-4-0T Porter, a 0-4-0 Vulcan, boxcars (Tweetsy and a DRGW), coaches (two from Canada's CN), etc. 35ton Whitcomb, multiple GE diesel electrics and Plymouths. If you need a measurement, stop in. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Keith Taylor Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 8:33 PM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Re: New Bio Hi List, Just to let you know, J.R. is being modest about his role at the NJ Museum of Transportation. He is, in fact, the Chairman of their Board of Trustees, and is N.J. State licensed to operate pressure vessels up to 1,000 boiler horse power with a special endorsement for Locomotives! So he is not just messing around there. While J.R may be new to small scale live steam, he has been in the Live Stream hobby for many years as well as the restoration of antique prototype equipment. Anyone on the list who has the chance, should take him up on his kind offer of a tour and cab ride. Particularly, those with an interst in British equipment who woud like to measure up the real thing. The Lady Edith from the Cavan Leitrim Rwy. in Ireland is located at Allaire and is a beautiful high drivered 1886 three foot gauge 4-4-0 side tank locomotive built by Stephenson's in England. It has the unusual feature, at least among locomotives in America, of having an all copper firebox, mud ring and staybolts. And the Shay at the Pine Creek RR is the sister engine to the Bachmann Shay that has become so popular. It is Ely-Thomas Lumber Co. No.6 whereas Bachmann's is No.5. I'm sure J.R will be very happy to assisit anyone on the list with technical information about any of the many 3' gauge steam locomotives under his care. Plus, he's going to have a ball building the Dee along with the rest of the gand who are also doing so. Keith Taylor - Original Message - From: David M. Cole [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:35 PM Subject: Re: New Bio jr: welcome aboard, but you're going to be the envy of the crowd ... firing prototypes is something the rest of us just dream about. thanks for joining and hope you find some of this useful. \dmc At 3:45 PM -0500 1/29/02, NJMT wrote: Just thought I'd throw on a short bio. (Feel like a new kid in school) Anyway, my name is J.R. May, residing in New Jersey, I have hung my hat at the 3' gauge Pine Creek Railroad/NJ Museum of Transportation since I was 11. Over the past 30 years I have spent a fair amount of time working on or running a Class B shay (Ely-Thomas #6) , a Baldwin 2-6-2 (SSS #26), a Stephenson 4-4-0T (Ireland, CL #3) or an assortment of diesels. Our members are currently restoring a 1912 Porter mogul.A partially complete 3/4 scale Atlantic resides in my home shop along with an antique 1/2 scale German 4 cylinder Atlantic. Dee (Keith Taylor brought it to my attention) sparked my interest in gauge 1 equipment, in part due to its English prototype. Please, if ever in NJ, feel free to contact me for a full tour of Pine Creek and perhaps a cab ride. Look forward to hearing from you all and building Dee. Thank you for you patience. J.R. May 732-295-8594 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- *+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+ *+*+ *+ David M. Cole [EMAIL PROTECTED] Editor Publisher: The Cole Papers; NEWSINC.V: (650) 557-9595 Consultant: The Cole Group http://colegroup.com/ F: (650) 557-9696 *+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+ *+*+ *+
RE: New Bio
A little clarification for our Canadian friends.the cars were built to 42 gauge and were narrowed to 36 for our operation. The oldest car is 1902, the second one slightly newer, about 1912 I believe. No easy task trying to find the timbers for the trucks during the last rebuild. And guys, if your journals don't exactly look alike from one side of your model to the other, don't worry about it. That's the way the prototypes ended up after 50 or more years in service. Swapping of parts was common. J.R. - Original Message - From: JR May [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 8:43 PM Subject: RE: New Bio [snip].., boxcars (Tweetsy and a DRGW), coaches (two from Canada's CN), etc. J.R. To be accurate, they are actually Newfoundland Rwy. coaches, the CN didn't take over the Newfie Flat wheel Rwy until quite late in their lives. They are really great wooden open platform cars with clerestory roofs, African Mahogony inlaid wood work and wooden beamed trucks! real antiques in lovely shape. These cars would look nice in No.1 gauge ! Keith
