Re: Faux firebox (now firebox Facts!)
Keith Taylor wrote: Royce, If you go back through my original posting, you will see that the door on the side is the cinder clean out. I think that I blinked while reading your post and missed that comment. But you're right. It's there in black and white. My bad. royce
Re: Faux firebox
Hi Vance. Thanks for the info and photos. Seeing what you've done is inspirational. The outside frame on your pony truck is awesome! royce in SB Vance Bass wrote: Royce, Coincidentally, I finished mounting the firebox and pony truck on my Ruby last night.
Re: Faux firebox (now firebox Facts!)
Hi Keith. Thanks for the info. It always amazes me how much knowledge is in this group. And how much skill it takes to actually drive a steam locomotive. Don't imagine there's alot of kick back time like I'm sure there is driving a diesel. They took all the fun out of it ! royce in SB Keith Taylor wrote: Hello Royce. You wrote: My supposition is that you should see the bottom of the firebox down to the mudring and then something related to the fire - maybe called the ashpan ? The photos that I've seen seem to have doors on them controlled by a rod. This is the part I don't understand. The doors you mention are located at the front and rear of the ash pan, and are called dampers and they control where the air enters the fire, and how much. When you are running forward, with a coal fired locomotive, you want the bulk of the air entering the fire to come from the rear, as air entering from the front will just take the shortest path up along the front seet of the firebox, and enter the tubes without having supplied oxygen to the coal! And, it has the specific bad effect of chilling the sheet nearest the front and breaking stay bolts and loosening tubes. So, for forward running, you mostly close the front damper, open the rear ones, and force any air entering to come up through the firebed! The farther you open the damper, the higher the amount of air, and hence a higher firing rate! So, lugging a drag of felled trees up a grade, the damper would be wide open. Loafing along drifting, you can close it down and save coal, since you aren't working the boiler very hard. These dampers (the doors) are controlled by rods that extend up in the cab floor, where thefireman can control the opening by lifting the lever and hooking it by a notch in the lever, to the cab floor holding it at whatever position he wants. The door on the side of the ash pan, as shown in Vance's photo, is the clean out, where ash accumulations are removed. If you let the ask get too high, it does two things, once chokes off air supply to the grates, and in some cases where the ash was allowed to actually reach the grates, it kept air from hitting the gratesm and cooling them. With the ash acting as an insulant, the grates can reach the temperature where they will actually melt! So, now you know what the doors are, they are firing controls on wood and coal burning locomotives. KeithIn frosty, and still snow covered Maine!
Off Topic
Hi folks. This may be off topic, but since it's been so slow, I thought maybe it wouldn't be objectionable. Does anybody out there know what's in WD-40 ? Specifically, I'm interested in the property that causes tape adhesive to release from whatever it's stuck to. royce
Re: depth of post footings and frost, was Re: sslivesteam-Digest - Number 1318
mdenning wrote: Lemme see now, I can grab PVC or iron with my hands but mother nature can't? Of course SHE can, and does. And her grip is way stronger than our hands. And your hands are gonna slip before you move a post out of frozen ground. I only posit that if her grip is foiled with something slippery, it may not be able to pull a post out of the ground either. But this surface (6) expansion gripping is apparently NOT what pull the post out of the ground. The post is PUSHED out of the ground by the expansion under it's bottom according to Harry. Don't make sense to me! Mebbe so. Royce, where is SB? Santa Barbara, CA Have Fun If I was having any more fun, someone would make it illegal! Thanks for your feedback. royce in SB (as distinguished from Royce Brademan.)
Re: depth of post footings and frost, was Re: sslivesteam-Digest - Number 1318
Hi All. At the risk of enraging those who hold strong convictions on the matter of frost heave, I would like to throw out some ideas. 1. I am beginning to understand that what is called frost heave, is the process whereby freezing soil at the surface of the ground can only expand UP as the water freezes. The freezing soil grabs the post and pulls it out of WHATEVER is around it below the soil surface. 2. Repeated freeze/thaw cycles of the surface soil jacks the post upward. 3. The final thaw at the end of the season results in a contraction of the soil (as the ice melts) which will allow the post to wobble. 4. There is a belief that if you extend the post below the frost depth, the unfrozen soil is stable and will grab the post bottom sufficiently to prevent the surface soil from pulling it upward. This would seem to imply that the gripping force on the portion of the post below the frost line is greater than the gripping force on the post at the freeze/thaw depth. 5. If all the above is true (and I'm just guessing - correct me if I'm wrong), then it would seem that frost heave might be prevented by simply wrapping the upper portion of the post in something slippery (like polyethylene) which would prevent the surface freezing from gripping the post. Which may be why someone's (I can't recall whose system it was) method of using PVC pipe works. The PVC is slippery enough that the ice can't grab ahold of the pipe. (As well as Gordon Watson's method of using steel galvanized pipe). Just my thoughts. Any comments/criticism welcome. royce in SB - where I will NEVER have to deal with frost heave. Rich wrote: I do not concur with your analysis. We are discussing a small area post and the placing the base of this post below the frost line will have little benefit to stability. As the layout does not cover a large area it would be reasonable to assume that the conditions are homogeneous. The depth of placement will not have any large impact on individual side thrust and thrust from the freeze / thaw cycle will have mostly equal impact on all posts. Posts placed on severly sloped ground will tend to shift due to the movement of the soil with time and depth will not make a lot of difference. I will not comment on the benefits / disadvantages of placing a post into concrete. As an aside. I am living out in the country in very hilly ground that has terrible bearing ratings. It liquifies when wet. And the soil is almost impenetrable when dry. I can look down about a quarter mile of fence from where I am sitting. This fence has been in place for probably 30+ years and is composed of original oak posts, replacement metal T posts and treated replacement wood posts. The fence was built by hand in the late summer. I do know who constructed it. The fence is as straight today as it was when first constructed. The original oak posts are about 2 foot into the ground as the original intent was to rebuild this fence the next spring. The barbed wire is holding it up. I would suggest placing the posts deep enough into the ground on a gravel bed to provide the lateral support required by the layout design and back filling with dirt. Lateral motion is going to be a larger problem than any frost induced vertical motion or frost induced differential motion. On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 14:10:30 -0500, Peter Foley wrote: -At 10:48 AM 1/5/05 -0600, Rich wrote: -OK, now here is my take on this frost heave item. To have any 'heaving -there has to be either differential expansion or contraction. This will -not happen across a free floating post that is in the ground almost any -distance at all. - -I have to disagree, Rich. To be sure that a post (a fence post being the -one we are all most familiar with, I think) will remain rigid (not wiggle -when you push on the top) and remain at the elevation it was installed at, -the post and/or post plus footing has to extend past the maximum depth of -frost penetration. All the concrete does is provide an un-compressible -collar around the post to stop it moving side to side and better frictional -resistance than the post alone. If you look along a long fence run -(particularly one with a continuous top rail), you invariable notice the -post that has moved - look at the base and you will see the concrete -footing popping up out of the ground. The amount a post with an inadequate -depth footing will move due to frost is a product of how much water the -soil around it holds - topsoil is the worst for this because of the high -organic content. Silt is second worst and sand the best. Clay may be good -or bad, depending on the depth of the natural water table and the degree of -surface slope - flat areas on clay soil where water ponds and stays after a -rain are bad for frost movement, sloped area where the water runs off -easily have few problems with frost heave. - -The differential expansion reasoning that you quote refers
Re: Scale/4-4-0 - PS
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You are about to start a project that will take more man hours than we like to discuss and building something you really like is probably the biggest issue in actually completing the project. Amen. Keep up posted. Regards, Tom Burns Sugar Land, TX royce in SB
Re: Fire!!!!! Burned
I was momentarily encouraged to think that Bob Jackie's house (and all the contents) was preserved. But now I'm devasted. In thinking about his loss, it occurred to me that we (the list) could maybe help at some time by each of us donating something to him jackie. We all have tools, tooling, bits, files, saws, parts, mags, plans, computers, etc that we COULD part with if the cause were just. This would be a just cause, I believe. While it would never replace what they've lost, it would be a start in rebuilding their lives. To prevent duplication, a list could be posted with items donated, anonymous or otherwise. We should pull together to help one of our own. Any thoughts ? royce in SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just got a call from one of my neighbors and it is confirmed our house and all the others have burned. It is absolutely awful Bob
Re: Threading
Anthony Dixon wrote: Sounds more like a split button die being used in the fully open position would not this cut the largest od thread ? Anything more closed would cut a smaller od thread, I am assuming. and not pre-adjusted adjusted down to optimum threading diameter, or incorrect o/d. Could also be a cheap soft Asian product, suitable only for cutting butter It is an DST brand (at least that is the marking on it). Which brings me to my next question, who makes good dies ? Alternatively, if you are using cheap/soft non-adjustable dies or have poor alignment, poor tools, poor work prep, poor work methods, minimum lubricant etc. you do get a poor job!. I have been told that if you turn the stock to be threaded to the nominal OD (ie .09375 for 3/32), it is too large for the die to cut the correct thread. That you must cut a slightly smaller OD for the die to work properly. You know anything about that ? This was done on an EMCO V10 with all the care I could muster. However even professionals were amateurs once, but learn't by taking advice, learning, experience, been there done that, etc. That's why I'm looking to this list for answers. i.e. screwcutting/threading is a science and an art to be learnt correctly, if one wishes. Regardless if in ones home work shop or in an industrial facility. It is not achieved by quick fix/make do working methods. If a job is worth doing ! It should be obvious that my quest is for quality, not speed, or I wouldn't be turning threads in lieu of using dies. royce in SB
Re: Threading
Keith Taylor wrote: Harry Steve, So far, nobody has told Royce WHY the threads are grabbing Actually, Tony Dixon pointed this out in his first address of my question. And my subsequent attempt was much more successful, but not completely. Maybe this PM I'll achieve success. Thanks for your input. Very well expressed. royce in SB PS - thanks for your kind words re my craftsmanship.
Re: Threading
Ciambrone, Steve @ OS wrote: gave me a threading tool/die holder for a lathe. Hi Steve. Thanks for responding. I've got a die holder for my lathe. And the holder works great. The problem is the dies (which I've gotten from Coles, McMaster Carr, etc - not junk) cut undersized/deformed threads (when new ! ! ). Even when shimming the die to maximum diameter. The die that I would use to cut the 3/32 - 48 thread I need cuts what looks like a buttressed thread with 67% space between the threads and 33% thread. HORRIBLE ! So to meet my standards, I've taken to cutting my own threads. I tried again last afternoon using the 29º compound offset, re-sharpening the bit, taking .0005 cuts, etc. Oh boy, I thought. This is working ! Within .0005 of final I checked with my standard tap cut female thread. Not quite. So I had to take one more pass. And it grabbed ! Now this was the full .325 threaded length (one plan was to cut 1/2 the length at a time to minimize stock sticking out of the collet - but this would require matching the thread pitch on rechucking - which I've done). So, I think that I can do it if I'm a little more careful, but I'm sure going to look into Harley Kelsey's suggestion of milling the threads. If I can find a 60º cutter (it would be pretty small), I'm going to try it. later, royce
Re: Threading
Harley. Thanks for responding. I LOVE your suggestion. Now where can I get a 60º milling cutter for a dremel ? royce in SB Harley Kelsey wrote: Royce, You can try milling the threads. On my Sherline, I mount a Dremel or grinder with a cutter ground to the thread angle and turn the lathe chuck and thread gearing by hand with a handle I made that attaches to the head shaft. You take small cuts and reverse turn to back out. You can cut very fine threads this way. Harley Kelsey Tel 604-688-2775 Fax (same) Cel 604-842-2442 email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Threading
Ciambrone, Steve @ OS wrote: I would explore the Die cutting method a bit more Royce, If you (or anyone can show me a reasonably tight thread cut with a die, I'll be happy to switch. How much is sloppy and what is the intended use of the threads your cutting? I just have this thing about people not saying about me that he has a screw loose. royce in SB
Re: Threading
Hi Tony. Thanks for responding (even if you thought you were talkin' to 'arry) Anthony Dixon wrote: Hi Harry, you are in fact plunge cutting, I knew that I was plunge cutting, but thought that the size of the threads (cut) would be so small that it would be OK. Guess not. I am surprised you are not seeing the part being threaded trying to climb over the tool. That's exactly what happens. As in the last pass to final ! Button Dies:- We used 4 piece cylindrical die boxes A little out of my price range as a home machinist. and split button dies My next question is : who makes QUALITY button/split dies ? Mis-alignment of threads is caused by poor alignment at the start, shaft being threaded has no lead-in, is off-centre/bent, worn/chipped die etc. Haven't been careful enough on the lead in, I'll admit. Assuming the die is in good shape, these are NEW dies. I expect better performance. Also ensure button die has the large lead angle towards the die to be threaded. (many people do not realise button dies can be inserted into holders front to back). I use the lead in side of the dies except to cut to a shoulder (which doesn't get close enough for my taste anyway). Hope this helps and not to confusing. VERY helpful. Thanks for the perspective. royce in SB
Re: Threading
Harry Wade wrote: At 08:56 AM 10/29/03 -0800, you wrote: cuts what looks like a buttressed thread with 67% space between the threads and 33% thread. HORRIBLE ! Royce, Sounds like you have a faulty (malformed) die. That's my impression. Each time I thought it was something I was doing wrong. Yes. Me too. I can't rule out that I don't know everything. in a pinch I bought an Ace 1/4-28 die at the hardware store for $3.45 and I got exactly what I paid for . . . a crappy die. Done that too (before I got into the hobby). Have been a believer in buy the best - once or whatever the saying is. No more imports for me (although I buy Harbor Freight dial calipers by taking 1 and 2 test pieces to the store and checking stacks of them to find one that reads correctly at 0, 1 and 2. That's usually good enough for my purposes). thanks for your input. royce in SB
Re: Threading
Ciambrone, Steve @ OS wrote: No one will see the threads after it is screwed in. Call me persnickety, Steve. Don't know WHAT to call Harry. (just joking, 'arry). Now, if you blokes would stop responding to my questions, I could get some work done. royce in SB
Threading
Hi folks. A question regarding machining techniques : how do you cut small threads on a lathe ? When I say small, I mean in the .060 to .100 od range. A little background. I'm self-taught. So I'm open to input from those (everyone) who has more experience than I do. I have developed a habit of cutting threads straight on (no offset of compound) and using the theoretical thread depth to determine how far to move tool into work. This I check with a female thread made with a tap. As soon as the thread goes in the female thread, I consider it done. This has yielded nice fitting threads. I developed this habit because I have been unable to get dies to cut threads (even when adjusting them to the largest diameter) that weren't sloppy in the female thread (and we all know this is not a good thing). The problem is that when cutting small dia threads (3/32-48 in this case) in 303 ss, I get about 80% of the thread cut (taking .002 cuts) and then it grabs the part. : ( After three tries last night, I decided that there has to be a way to do this of which I am unaware. Just to eliminate the obvious suggestions, material is held in a collet from which it extends (for thread cutting purposes) no more than .325. Tool is high speed steel - sharp. Cutting oil is bacon grease. The area where I think that the answer MAY lie is in offsetting the compound (to 29 1/2), but Im not familiar with the details of this procedure. The biggest question is how to EASILY know what the thread depth is using the compound instead of the cross slide dials. Does anyone know of an available - i.e. online source of info on this procedure ? Or, alternatively, what am I doing wrong ? royce in SB PS - Had a great time at the ME Expo show in Visalia and highly recommend steamers finding the time to attend one of these fabulous shows. And I ran into Steve Ciambrone there too. Smiles everywhere.
Re: soft soldering
Steve Shyvers wrote: Royce, I used Alpha Metals 2% silver / 98% tin soft solder Gonna get some this weekend. I used a butane micro torch made by Bernz-o-matic. Is this the one that has a hose connecting to a standard propane bottle ? That's what I have. The 2% silver solder is very easy to work with. It flows much easier than tin/lead solder and the flux cleans up with water. That's encouraging news. The higher melting temperature silver solder provides some piece of mind with regard to the tanks' integrity in service compared to tin/lead solder. Steve Consider your advice taken. Thanks. royce in SB
soft soldering
Hi Gang. Am beginning the alcohol tank for my Philly and wondered whether it is OK to soft solder. It's made of .032 brass. I have a choice of bending to shape or using angle iron (brass) and rivets to achieve 90 deg bends (not necessarily cosmetic). Any thoughts ? royce in SB
Re: soft soldering
Ciambrone, Steve @ OS wrote: Hi Steve. Thanks for responding. Using as torch will warp the sheet metal. On .032 I would use a 85 Watt iron. Hadn't thought of using an iron after learning to handle a torch. But I could see that you may be able to control the heated area better with an iron. .032 is a bit heavy Drawing on Keith Bucklitch's tank design using .75 mm. Would there be any reason NOT to use .032 ? To make tanks I draw them out in Visio I have heard of Visio but don't know anything about it. A CAD program ? I use Intellicad for layout work. Solidworks for conceptual modeling. I paint my tanks with Testers Gloss black enamel which is resistant to Methanol. Flowquil engine black is not. Thanks for the heads up on the methanol. Although I'm not planning on using ANY paint. Was going to make the wrapper from .015 or so steel and passivate it with black oxide like I did on the frames. Looks GREAT. (I HATE the look of chipped paint on metal and will avoid it at just about any cost). Steve
Re: Metric or standard?
Clark Lord wrote: I also have a small (3 inches long) Channel Lock pliers and a small (3 inch long) Cresent Wrench. Where'd you find those items, Clark ? Seems I ran into someone at a steamup who had a very small crescent wrench described as very hard to find item. Thanks. royce in SB
Re: Small Channelock Pliers
Thanks for the leads, guys. royce in SB John Coughran wrote: Hello Royce, You can find them in the Ignition Tools section of Sears. Been there and done that to finally find the bl**dy things! Also see small wrenches there. All the best, John Coughran, 310-318-1547, 1525-A Artesia Blvd, Manhattan Beach, CA 90266-7160, USA
Re: dead leg piping
Steve Shyvers wrote: Royce, So what's the verdict about using 1/16 OD tubing? I haven't seen any objections to it. After the opinionated exchanges regarding the operation of lubricators, everybody's afraid of giving their opinions on this matter. : ) How about 3/32 tubing to buy a little more cross-section area? 3/32 scales out to 1.8 OD at 16mm/ft and 1.9 at 15mm/ft. Thanks for addressing my question, Steve. I'm going to try the 1/16 od in brass and see if it works. If not, I'll go to 3/32 od. I think that I'm going to experiment with placement too. Above, below, and even with steam line to see if affects delivery rate. I'm also going to try running steam thru the line without the pulsation of oscillating cylinders to see if that has anything to do with the feed rate. Maybe generate some facts about the operation of lubricators. Since the lubricator/chassis is not connected to the boiler, it would be fairly easy to try different configurations at this time. royce in SB
dead leg piping
Hi Gang. Not to change the subject, but I have a question. I'm designing a dead leg lubricator for my Philly. Can I make the pipe that goes to the steam tee out of 1/16 OD copper ? The ID is probably about .034 or so. I'm going to try and disquise the lubricator tank as an air compressor on the side of the boiler. So I'd prefer NOT to have 1/8 pipe coming out of it (would look way out of scale). Any thoughts ? royce in SB
Re: dead leg piping
The Sagers wrote: Why use copper? Brass thin wall tube will give you the external size you want and the thin wall will give more internal space for the steam/oil to exchange. Well, because I didn't THINK of using brass. I haven't gotten outside my box today. Thanks for the idea. I'll use it if I can deal with bending issues. Thanks, royce in SB Vic in CA - Original Message - From: Royce Woodbury [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 10:03 AM Subject: dead leg piping Hi Gang. Not to change the subject, but I have a question. I'm designing a dead leg lubricator for my Philly. Can I make the pipe that goes to the steam tee out of 1/16 OD copper ? The ID is probably about .034 or so. I'm going to try and disquise the lubricator tank as an air compressor on the side of the boiler. So I'd prefer NOT to have 1/8 pipe coming out of it (would look way out of scale). Any thoughts ? royce in SB
Re: dead leg piping
Tag Gorton wrote: could you not go straight through from inside the smokebox as per a similar idea and disguise on Regner locomotives Royce? While that's a great idea, I'm not sure that would be compatible with American practice. I would like to see an example of your suggestion, however. Any links to photos where I could see this practice ? Thanks for your thoughts. royce
Re: dead leg piping
Keith Taylor wrote: - Royce, Bending is easy! Keith Again, quick, elegant answers. Thanks for sharing these good ideas. I've heard them before, but they just didn't come to mind when I thought of .060 tubing with .015 walls. But you're right. I'm sure any of your approaches will work wonderfully. Thanks. royce in SB PS I was able to steam my Philly boiler last weekend and connected the throttle outlet to some tubing which I connected to the chassis. It ran on steam for the first time ! But this was without a lubricator, hence my current efforts to resolve these issues.
Re: quorum ...
Clark Lord wrote: Sorry for the confusion. my natural state. no problem. royce
Re: quorum ...
Have I missed something here ? What call ? What quorum ? I must be outta the loop. royce Jim McDavid wrote: Friday the 19th ok with me. I agree with Clark on purchase of the second track. Jim - Original Message - From: Clark Lord [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 10:37 AM Subject: Re: quorum ... Dave Cole wrote: if that's the case, i propose the next call being held on Friday, sept. 19, 8 a.m. That works for me as I'll be back from Florida. And there isn't a really big rush except for spending money to buy the second track.. I vote to spend up to their asking price to acquire a second track pending a successful inspection as to quality and usability. We'll have to deal with a trailer's cost later on. I don't think we should let the second track deal slip through our fingers. Cheers Clark Clark B Lord - Las Vegas, Nevada USA Las Vegas Live Steamers - Gauge 1 live steam
Re: boiler test
Harry Wade wrote: Royce, . . . from the wording of your post it sounded as if Gordon (and Kozo) advised you to test to 3X working pressure which seems very unlikely to me. My bad. Actually, in checking the plans, I see that the working pressure is 35 psi, not 40, and Gordon DOES suggest testing to 120 psi. However, this is for a single flue boiler that only penetrates one side of the vertical tube. My boiler was changed (under Gordon's guidance to a 5 tube boiler which penetrates BOTH sides of the vertical tube (if that makes any difference). When I referred to Kozo and Gordon, I was talking about SOLDERING technique, not numbers, as the reason the boiler was successfully soldered the first time. It was definitely MY doins to take it to 140 psi without knowing the possible consequences. Now that you've shown me the way, I won't do that again. Thanks for your insight on this matter. Hopefully, it will prevent some other neophyte from hurting their boiler. royce in SB
Re: boiler test
Harry Wade wrote: At 07:03 AM 8/18/03 -0700, you wrote: My bad. Actually, in checking the plans, I see that the working pressure is 35 psi, not 40, and Gordon DOES suggest testing to 120 psi. Royce Royce, That too isn't as bad as it sounds. I've felt for a long time that regardless of its intended actual WP, anything we make should be able to take 100psi without any negative effects, visible or otherwise. Regards, Harry Well, my thinking at the time was that 140 psi is not all that high, and if the boiler couldn't take that without damage, my confidence in the safety factor would have been badly shaken. 140 psi doesn't seem all that far away from working pressure should water become scarce in the boiler. The important thing is that it held without a problem. Now where's that blower fan ? (Scott, your check is in the mail). :) Thanks to all for your input and support. royce in SB
Re: A convergence of the Starrs
Pam and I send you our heartfelt congratulations. We just celebrated our 22nd. E ticket ride, but I wouldn't change a thing. May you have a long joyous adventure. royce in SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: that Jackie and I are married now. I must have gotten some steam oil in my eye or something :-). Hey! She is a fine woman, and she likes trains! What more could a guy ask for. We are very happy. Bob and Jackie Starr
Re: boiler test
Harry Wade wrote: Royce, 140psi for a boiler designed for 40psi WP!!??? That was totally unnecessary and could have destroyed your boiler for no reason. Regards, Harry This shows my ignorance on the subject. An extra 20 psi didn't seem significant. For my education, what could have happened to destroy the boiler ? royce in SB
boiler test
Hey all. Just wanted to say that my 5 tube Philly boiler passed the hydrotest yesterday. First boiler. First time. Man, do I feel lucky. royce in SB
Re: boiler test
Gary wrote: What pressure? Although Gordon Watson said 120 psi, an extra stroke on the water pump saw 140 for a short time. Sort of bulged the top bottom plates on the vertical tube (it's a T type boiler - 1 1/2 horizontal tube intersecting a 2 dia vertical tube). But I persuaded them back and hope that they won't bulge at operating pressure (40 psi). Five tubes and all held, Just followed Kozo's and Gordon's guidance. I must give credit to Gordon for the alcohol burning boiler design. Without his support I would have never attempted such a project. Feels real good. Man this is a GREAT hobby ! And I'm just beginning. Can't imagine what it'll be like to actually see it run the first time. Contain thyself ! royce in SB
Re: Great steamup!
So, rub it in. I missed a great event. But then I had a great anniversary weekend, much to my wife's delight. So, who won the raffle ? royce in SB Jeffrey Williams wrote: Although this has been mentioned on other forums, I wanted to be sure that the Founding Fathers of Steam Events LLC know that last weekend's National Summer Steamup 2003 at Sacrameto, CA was a great and wonderfully produced event. Five tracks, mamy locos running simultaneously, great venue, reasonable hotel rates, super door prizes, friendly vendors, unique seminars and nice conveniences (carts from parking lot to steamup room, plus others) were outstanding! Thanks, guys!!!
craftsmen
Harry Wade wrote: drilling and filing the curved slot in the link (for instance) can be as quick and just as accurate as setting it all up for milling. Regards, Harry Here, here. (or is it hear, hear ?) A true craftsman. Much more satisfying to do something by hand as well and as fast as by machine. royce in SB
Re: national summer steamup
Dave Cole wrote: i'll be posting pictures later today or tonight. And for those of us poor souls who aren't going to be able to attend, thanks in advance for the pics. royce in SB
Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel
Steve Shyvers wrote: Thanks, Harry. I bow to your superior wisdom and knowledge, and, most of all, to your willingness to share it. Regards, Steve Nice to have someone so nice having the last word more often than not. It's always clear that Harry has taken more time in crafting his comments than most (including me). Thanks. royce in SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 03:43 PM 7/10/03 -0700, you wrote: Harry, would it be more correct to say that you were trying to break the surface tension of the molten solder blob in order to make it run along the joint? Theoretically solders won't flow, or rather wet, because the flux has broken down or was inadequate to begin with or a contaminate, usually an oxide of some sort, has formed on the target surfaces. The idea of scratching is to attempt to remove or at least displace some of that oxide in order to encourage the solder to stick. The failure of scratching in silver soldering is due to the high temps involved and the quick formation of hard oxides or burnt contaminates. Another hopeless non-starter is attempting to add a fluid flux to a joint at brazing temp. Regards, Harry
Re: Flux and Brass (was NOT Silversoldering Stainless Steel)
This may be a dumb question, but are you sure of the alloy of the brass? I've gotten snookered by thinking one metal was something else. ie 1018 was O-1. royce in SB Harry Wade wrote: At 08:17 AM 7/11/03 -0700, you wrote: I promise to try the Sta-Silv on some brass again to see what the effect is. Steve, This is all very strange because I wouldn't suspect that any of the materials mentioned are agressive or caustic enough, either together or seperately, even with heat, to eat up metal. Regards, Harry
Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel
Hi Robb. Can an Oxy/acetylene torch be used to make a 2 1/2 boiler? From what I have read, oxy/acetylene is too much heat for our purposes unless you are welding. I see in my local paper a fellow has a used one for sale tomorrow at his garage sale. And I think that the turbo torch (acetylene only) torches are different than O/A torches. You can't just turn off the oxygen. I have tried the two fisted Mapp gas method Well, I had acetylene in my right hand. but I need about two more hands for flux and solder. And I use the method of fluxing (with black for boilers), laying on snippets (or rings) of silver solder, and heating until the solder flows into the heat (joint). You don't need to scratch. In my experience, if you've reached the scratch point, the process has failed. royce in SB
Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel
Steve Shyvers wrote: Royce, What is the operation that you refer to as scratch? Well, maybe that's not the correct term, but it would refer to encouraging the silver solder to flow where it doesn't seem inclined to go by means of a wire used to scratch or push the solder around. PS haven't gotten around to getting an appropriate photo to post. royce in SB
Re: Silver soldering Stainless Steel
Terry Griner wrote: Now I have a Presto-lite Air Acetylene torch that works for all my silver soldering needs. I got it at a flea market for 20.00 USD and here in Columbus Ohio, I got a tank swap out for around 35.00 USD. Harry, take note of the above. THAT's the $10-20 cost I was talking about. (But you don't get the bubble pack.) ; ) royce in SB
Re: Torches heat treating
Harry Wade wrote: On an unrelated matter, when tempering (a D bit), do you heat it to cherry or dull red before quenching ? Yes, heat to cherry red and hold for a bit. Turns out that I was trying to temper 1018. PARTS of it got hard. Enough to make me think that it was 0-1. and temper it by reheating until you see a straw color creep up the bit. I heat mine for tempering on a bed of common sand in a metal tray heated from underneath. I like that suggestion. Seems like it would have better heat transfer (more even) than heating it on a piece of stainless steel. Thanks for your input. royce in Sb
Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel
Hi Michael. Since I borrowed mine, I'm not sure where you would get one. But I would guess that you would get one at a welding supply store. It looks like an acetylene torch but with only ONE hose (the air is mixed in at the nozzle, just like a propane torch). And the tank is usually a refillable system whereby you take your tank in and they give you another tank that is full (after you give them $28 for the acetylene). The regulator/hose/torch is switched from tank to tank as they are emptied. I don't know how long they lasts, but I expect there's alot of acetylene in them. Someone recently told me that these systems are cheap and available (torch/hose/regulator). If he comes back with more than one, I'll let you know. royce in SB mdenning wrote: OK, what is and where do you get a Turbo Torch? Thanks Michael Florida USA
Re: Torches heat treating
Harry Wade wrote: At 06:22 AM 7/8/03 -0700, you wrote: (snip) Someone A retired weapons designer turned tool dealer recently told me that these systems are cheap seems like he said $10-$20. Maybe that's without the regulator. Just the torch hose. I'll have to call him. I'll get back to you on it. and available (torch/hose/regulator). On an unrelated matter, when tempering (a D bit), do you heat it to cherry or dull red before quenching ? I'm not experienced heat treating stuff and my D bit was just dulled by brass. royce in SB
Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel
Harry Wade wrote: At 10:44 AM 7/6/03 -0700, you wrote: (snip) But I'm having a hard time visualizing how one could solder a boiler WITHOUT using more than propane (even MAPP gas) as a heat source. royce Royce, That's probably because it can't be done, Thanks for verifying my notion. Given the right delivery system and volume, an air/cow-farts torch would melt copper. Now you've done it. A discussion of the heat content of methane vs propane vs acetylene is sure to follow. : ) The real problem, of course, is the gas collection system. Don't even want to visualize it. royce in SB
Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel
Mike Chaney wrote: I don't understand the problem. Hi Mike. thanks for responding. I don't know that there IS a problem. I seem to remember seeing or reading something somewhere that indicated silver soldering stainless steel was more problematic than other metals. So I thought I would ask before re-inventing the wheel, as it were. I'm glad that for our purposes, there does not seem to be a problem with it. royce in SB
Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel
Steve Shyvers wrote: Royce, You won't make it to the Summer Steamup? Arrgh! I know, I know. But if I don't spend some time with my honey, there'll be hell to pay. (it's our anniversary that weekend). And since my loco's not done, at least I'll be able to spend some of the time it would take to get to Sacramento, the steamup, and return to actually work on it. And Michael Martin always does such a great job of photo coverage, I'll just have to drool at my monitor. But next year I'll have something to run. When will we all get to see your boiler/waterpump/loco creation? Well, if you're that interested, I can post a picture. royce in SB
Silversoldering Stainless Steel
Hope all of you are enjoying the holiday. But since I'm taking a moment to work on my water pump, I thought I would ask whether anyone has any advice on silversolding stainless steel. Thanks, royce in SB
Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Royce, It seems that cleanliness is, as always, the most important thing with this material. Yes I use the black flux which is intended for stainless After posting my question, I saw on the black flux directions that it is intended for silver soldering stainless (as well as other metals). Have not yet tried it. The parts are fairly small so I'm not anticipating heating problems. By the way, I've been using a turbo torch (acetylene only, no oxygen) to silver solder my boiler. Have not had any trouble (that I can tell) OVERheating parts. But I'm having a hard time visualizing how one could solder a boiler WITHOUT using more than propane (even MAPP gas) as a heat source. I'm getting pretty good at two fisted (MAPP in one hand, acetylene in the other) silver soldering. ; ) All I can recommend is to not overheat the stainless, it quickly gets a firescale coat that will not allow the solder to flow. As in all hard soldering techniques you should try and bring the pieces to be joined to the same temperature as evenly as possible. Sometimes that certainly means concentrating your heat on the largest object and allowing that piece to heat the smaller. Bob Thanks for your input. Hi to Jackie royce
Out of Bars
I guess some of us may be in trouble if they start running live steam in a bar. A little in the lokey. A little down the spout. A little in the lokey. . . Interesting thought. royce in SB
Re: Maurer Auctions
Thanks for the lead. Neat website. royce in SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.maurerail.com/asp/auctionlist.asp?iano=217
Re: mechanical lubricators
Man, THAT is tiny ! Thanks for the link. royce in SB Vance Bass wrote: http://www.sidestreet.info/locos/loco38.html regards, -vance- Vance Bass Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
Re: blower fans
My fear is that I'll spend more time gathering the parts than would be cost effective. Probably makes sense to commit to this addiction and buy quality the first time. Southern Steam Trains ? royce in SB Harry Wade wrote: At 06:52 PM 6/1/03 -0700, you wrote: Am going to need a blower fan for my Philly soon. Any suggestions? Royce, I broke down and bought the Aster fan, but for a while I had a home-made blower made from a Sanyo 1.6 x 1.6 12v muffin fan. The heat didn't seem to affect it at all. Regards, Harry
blower fans
Hi folks. Am going to need a blower fan for my Philly soon. Any suggestions ? Don't want to spend aLOT of time making one, but would consider it if it was easy (read that quick). Other end of the scale is, I guess, the Aster for $70 or so. What say ye ? royce in SB
Re: blower fans
Well, I, uh, changed it to a 5 tube alky boiler. Under the guidance of Mr Watson. Will be the only alky philly on the continent, I'm told. Guess you know I didn't use all the parts that were in the box. royce in SB KEVIN STRONG wrote: Isn't the Philly butane fired? Wouldn't think you'd need a fan for that. Later, K - Original Message - From: Royce Woodbury [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sunday, June 1, 2003 6:03 pm Subject: blower fans Hi folks. Am going to need a blower fan for my Philly soon. Any suggestions ? Don't want to spend aLOT of time making one, but would consider it if it was easy (read that quick). Other end of the scale is, I guess, the Aster for $70 or so. What say ye ? royce in SB
Re: Loctite and Model Steam Engine Construction
Harry Wade wrote: My remedy foir this, snip I then turn a trench in the wheel seat maybe .004 deep and long enough so as to leavea 1/32 wide register ring at each end of the seat. This creates therequired curing clearance. Regards, Harry GREAT tip, Harry. thanks, royce in SB
Re: Materials compatibility
Well, Mike, it seems that after digesting the great info from all the responders, that your input may have hit the nail on the head. Residual carborundum is the culprit. I've learned my lesson. I'll be alot more careful about abrasives in the future. I also cleaned out the bores on the cylinders (also honed) by replacing the carborundum on a wooden mandrel with tightly wrapped writing paper. The bores come out highly polished. A great way to refine a surface Thanks for the tip. royce Mike Chaney wrote: After getting the two surfaces flat - separately, not by lapping them together - rub each whilst still wet on a piece of good quality writing paper. The blackness which appears on the paper is the carborundum which was previously imbedded in the brass.
Re: Materials compatibility
Uncle Geoff. Your suggestion of using 1000 grit and bon ami is a good one, but the admonition to wash intensively is the key, it would seem. I've heard of vehicle engines going bad after having parts bead blasted to clean as a result of embedded abrasives that weren't easily washed out. The paper trick Mike Chaney suggested may help in this regard where fluid cleaning can't grab the particles of abrasive. Thanks for your help. royce in SB Geoff Spenceley wrote: Royce, The valve block surface and the valves should be finally finished with 1000 grit on a properly precision machined steel plate , then on a piece of real plate glass using a very light lapping compound such as bon-ami, to the extent where a high polish Intensive washing of the parts to remove all the abrasive materials and metal is essential when all is done. Before all this make sure the ports are clear of burrs and wash thoroughly--you don't want chips of metal to be around as you start the lapping procedure. Geoff. Hi Phil. Thanks for responding to my dilemma. On initial installation, I think I hit the valve face and port face with 600 grit wet or dry oil before the first run. But I didn't break the sharp edge on the bottom of the valve. On the first run, it may be that the assembly oil ( read that turbine oil) may have run dry (although I would be surprised if that happened within 5 minutes of running). However,the scratches (which I am assuming are the result of galling) reappeared after removal of the inital scratches by re- honing. The plans call for both parts to me made of brass, so I am beginning to think that there is a problem with the bronze that I used to make the valves. Some impurities may be causing the problem. royce in SB Phil Paskos wrote: Hmm. If the materials are finished well, no sharp edges etc and you're using steam oil that is getting to the ports, I'm surprised that is happening. Phil P
Re: Materials compatibility
Gail. Thanks so much for the tips on how to machine port faces out of cast iron. If I have ANY further problems with my brass valve ports, I'm gonna go to cast iron. Now I know how to do it. Thanks. royce in SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Royce I used continuous cast bar stock. To cut a false port face, I milled the port facing complete with ports, mounting holes and to outside dimensions with all features about 1/16 inch deep on the end of a short section of the bar stock. Then I parted it off in the lathe to 50 or 60 thousands thick. Face off a stub of scrap and mount the machined port face to it. In more modern times others have used Cyanoacylate glue (crazy glue) to mount the parts. It breaks down at about 350 Degree F to remove the part or there are solvents for it. Gail
CA glue
Thanks to Bob, Steve, Keith, et al re CA attachment of parts to mandrels. And speaking of glue, can you use CA the same way you use loctite ? royce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For machining small parts, registering holes between parts, and a multitude of uses, I find Zap a Gap CA to work wonders. Saves a lot of time and grief. Bob
Re: Materials compatibility
Hi Phil. Thanks for responding to my dilemma. On initial installation, I think I hit the valve face and port face with 600 grit wet or dry oil before the first run. But I didn't break the sharp edge on the bottom of the valve. On the first run, it may be that the assembly oil ( read that turbine oil) may have run dry (although I would be surprised if that happened within 5 minutes of running). However,the scratches (which I am assuming are the result of galling) reappeared after removal of the inital scratches by re- honing. The plans call for both parts to me made of brass, so I am beginning to think that there is a problem with the bronze that I used to make the valves. Some impurities may be causing the problem. royce in SB Phil Paskos wrote: Hmm. If the materials are finished well, no sharp edges etc and you're using steam oil that is getting to the ports, I'm surprised that is happening. Phil P
Re: Materials compatibility
Hi Graham. Thanks for responding. It is my impression that cast iron is not used much in gauge one locos due to rust problems or other considerations. Not sure what they are. Maybe someone can comment on the use of cast iron in gauge one - or rather why we don't see it used much. royce in SB graham sprague wrote: Suggest cast iron (best material in the world ) bar non NO ECHO - Original Message - From: Royce Woodbury [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 11:27 AM Subject: Materials compatibility Hi Gang. Still struggling with my Philly. But I ran across a problem I thought some input from the experts might be advisable. The slide valve port face is made of common brass. I made the slide valve itself from an ingot of an unknown alloy of bronze, thinking the dissimilarity of materials would make a good combination. The face of the ports is galling . So the material combination is not satisfactory. Since the easier part to make are the valves,does anyone have a suggestion as to material ? I'm considering teflon, stainless steel (416), leadalloy, brass, phosphor bronze (of known composition). Thanks for your input. royce in SB
Re: Materials compatibility
Harry Wade wrote: they shouldn't be galling. Brass and brass ought to be holding up just fine even with little lubrication. Regards, Harry Based on that thought maybe I should remake the valves in a known brass alloy and see if it still happens. This instead of trying a dissimilar material. I'm beginning to think that it's this bronze that I used. Thanks, as always, for your input, Harry. royce in SB
Re: Materials compatibility
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Royce, I lap both parts on a flat surface with 600 grit sandpaper and oil. Then clean very well and then clean again. Maybe I didn't clean the residual abrasive well enough and it caused the galling. Although the depth of the scratches appears to be deeper than the abrasive (600 grit) by a significant amount. I have made a few engines with a cast iron port face about .03 inch thick . . . Then run a cast iron valve against that. Gail in NM This sounds like a fool-proof solution to the problem, although a bit of work. I'm not going to rule it out until this problem is solved. However, where does one get .03 cast iron? I have seen suppliers list cast iron available as continuous cast bars, but nothing of that thinness. Someone on this list suggested that old irons (as in clothes irons - heated on a stove, I presume) is a good source of fine grain cast iron. I've got my eye on an iron that my dad used to use as an anvil, but I'm afraid that my mom would consider it an antique (as in, how dare you cut it up for train parts). But slicing it into .03 slabs is beyond my ability without a surface grinder. Hmmm, I just saw one of those at my friends machine shop. Anyway, thanks for the suggestion and feedback. royce in SB
Materials compatibility
Hi Gang. Still struggling with my Philly. But I ran across a problem I thought some input from the experts might be advisable. The slide valve port face is made of common brass. I made the slide valve itself from an ingot of an unknown alloy of bronze, thinking the dissimilarity of materials would make a good combination. The face of the ports is galling . So the material combination is not satisfactory. Since the easier part to make are the valves,does anyone have a suggestion as to material ? I'm considering teflon, stainless steel (416), leadalloy, brass, phosphor bronze (of known composition). Thanks for your input. royce in SB
Re: Larry's Steamup
Thank's Bob, for the pictures. As you know, I was unable to attend (pior commitment), so the pictures are the next best thing. Next year, I'm going to make sure I have no other commitments. Hope to see you at the Queen Mary. royce in SB PS Almost have the replacement cylinders made for my Argyle. 5 psi or bust !
Re: Online Survey
Boy, did this survey question ball get rollin'. Actually, when I said that I didn't see why a manufacturer wouldn't be interested, I wasn't assuming that they would use it for manufacturing/production decisions (which would require all the rigidity suggested by Mr Cole). And maybe I didn't really give a darn about whether the mfg's would be interested.I would be interested. Maybe if the techies in the group could get away from the rigorous demands of science and business, they might see that there might be a human interest to the results of a questionaire. I agree, what kind of loco do you want to see mgf make is of questionable use to the mfg. But I would find it interesting that so and so has a high school education, makes 20K a year, and gets as much joy of running his fill in the blank as the guy with 200K income and 3 Allegheny's, but can't get his wick lit. A problem with computer based communications is that much of the picture that results from personal interaction isn't there. So a questionaire might help fill in some blanks to flesh out the picture in our minds eye of the people we are communicating with vie this list. Just my 2 ¢. royce in SB
Re: Online Survey
Oh, by the way. The objective is not to win the debate. It's to benefit from views of those who disagree with us. (That's an original quote). royce in SB
Re: Online Survey
Harry Wade wrote: At 06:52 PM 3/17/03 -0800, you wrote: Several years ago when I was still riding all my riding buddies rode $15,000+ bikes and mine might have brought $1500, but I rode just as far and as fast and had just as much fun as they did, and I never had to worry about someone accidentally putting a fingerprint on it. Regards, Harry You obviously have gotten by in life by your personality and abilities, rather than your ability to impress others. royce
Re: Accucraft live steam Daylight GS-4: It's for real!
I don't see any reason why a limited sampling of all listers wouldn't be of great interest to manufacturers. And to the listers. I, for one, would like to see a survey such as Mr Pitts suggested, even knowing that the universe is constrained by those with internet access (or, more accurately, members of this list). Just my 2¢. royce in SB Jeff Runge wrote: Vance, In a recent conversation with Jim Pitts, he talked about doing a survey to see Who is in this hobby, and collect information like: age, background,education,where do you live, how many engines, what kind, ect,ect. some information may be sensitive like income so one would need to be discreet or anonymous. This survey would cover everyone willing to respond. He is not sure how to reach everyone? not everyone has internet access, and the closest thing to a mailing list would come from DH and local clubs. not very cost effective. The down side of doing this survey is it may scare away the manufactures.( given the average age one would expect) hehe. Jeff in NC - Original Message - From: Vance Bass [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 5:13 PM Subject: Re: Accucraft live steam Daylight GS-4: It's for real! It certainly makes sense that it would be Aster. Their past products have been more aligned with the UK/European tastes than American. And, given that so many of their previous locos have been alcohol fired, it also makes sense that the people responding to an Aster survey (i.e., current Aster owners, I suspect) would prefer what Aster has already made. It would be really interesting to see the same survey conducted by Roundhouse or Accucraft. regards, -vance- Vance Bass Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
Re: Scrounging was Bronze Dee parts
As always, Harry, your advice is exceptional and articulate. Thanks, royce in SB Harry Wade wrote: Ken, Then, just 'cause you're a live steamer doesn't make you special Well, to THEM it doesn't make you special. Regards, Harry
Re: Scrounging was Bronze Dee parts
Another source is machine shop swarf barrels. A friend of mine (who owns a machine shop) has 55 gallon drums full of sorted (by material) swarf, sometimes with chunks plenty large enough for much of what we make for our lokeys. I have to dig through the swarf to find useable pieces, but hey . . ! I can do that (with gloves, of course). royce in SB
Re: Scrounging was Bronze Dee parts
So then we all represent our hobby when dealing with the outside world. And if we do a credible job of it, we will recruit newcomers. Harry Wade wrote: At 10:03 AM 3/13/03 -0800, you wrote: Well, to THEM it doesn't make you special. Royce Since then we endeavored to cultivate, rather than alienate. Regards, Harry Now, another question to keep those without jobs (or those like myself who are sandbagging) busy. Should I decide to use packing instead of Orings in my piston grooves, are there any guidelines as to width/depth, etc ? I'm considering this as it seems to me that the interference fit suggested by our esteemed members results in noticeable friction. And, in addition, the comments about Orings taking set worries me. It would seem that that would result in inconsistent or unpredictable sealing. Any thoughts ? royce in SB
Im not sure where we are now
Harry Wade wrote: At 09:49 AM 3/11/03 -0800, you wrote: You see Harry, . . . . you get four soft sizzling farts per rev Geoff has cracked me up again ! Laughed long and hard at that comment. if it worked at all it would seal in both directions, but apprently we have one that didn't. Regards, Harry Having torn my philly apart AGAIN last night, it appears that ONE of the cylinders has a bore that varies (along its axis) by as much as .003 in diameter. This contributes to it sealing in one direction and not the other. A result of my fine precision honing w/sandpaper, I assume. I've decided to rebuild the cylinders as the friction of a .004 interference fit is substantial, requiring much higher PSI to run. And regarding leaks (like at steamchest, cylinder interfaces, is there a recommended way to gasket them (ie, sealant or gasket ?) TIA royce
Back to O rings
Harry Wade wrote: At 03:13 PM 3/8/03 -0500, you wrote: imports . . . . , not to be mean-spirited, but you do get what you pay for. I agree that if the tool won't do the job you've wasted your money and more, but these days I wouldn't automatically assume imported = poor quality. Regards, Harry I agree with you Harry. I think that the lesson I learned here is that if you're going to use non-name brand tooling, you MUST test it for it's intended use BEFORE using it on your work. Had I done this, it would have avoided me spending hours last night hacksawing blanks for new cylinders out of my 25 lb ingot of bronze. I would, however, like a comment on the issue of the bore being .442 vs Oring .438. I did an experiment by packing the O ring groove with a strip of brass to bring the OD up to .444 or so. Interestingly, the exhaust beat increased from 1 per revolution to 3 per revolution (it's hard to tell) while the friction increased (higher PSI req'd to start, run). This seemed to indicate that without the packing, alot of blowby was occuring in at least one of the cylinders. But if this were the case, why was I able to get it to run at all below say 7 PSI ? I concluded that I was going to have to make new cylinders with an ID of .438 to get a 4 beat per revolution exhaust beat (important to me, for some reason). What say ye ? royce in SB
Re: O rings - another question
Thanks Jim, Paul Clark for your suggestions. One thing that I haven't done yet is use any packing in the piston and valve rod glands. How might packing them affect things ? I don't seem to be getting alot of blow by out of the gland nuts. Is packing gonna put alot more friction in the system ? Or can I assume that if it runs on 5 PSI without packing, it'll run better with packing ? royce in SB Clark Lord wrote: And still another hint. Put your chassis over a oil changing pan or something to catch oil drips. Hook it up to your air supply. As Jim says make sure you have a few drops of steam oil in the air line. Begin running the engine chassis and then pour some transmission fluid over the entire thing. As it runs keep reducing the air pressure to keep it running at a reasonable speed. Continue to ladle tranny fluid over everything from time to time. I use a household soup ladle but a turkey baster also works. A gallon of transmission fluid costs under $5.00. And you can pour what's left in the oil changing pan back into your gallon jug to be used again. Make sure you label that jug as contaminated oil, not to be used in your car. I have used this method on all my new steamers including ride on sizes. I run them for an hour in each direction. The tranny fluid flushes away all the microscopic bits of metal in the bearings. The stiffness of the motion will smooth out quickly. By the time you are running on 3-5 psi it's done. As Jim says, you will be rewarded with a smooth running engine that will run like a champ. Clark James Curry wrote: Royce: At what air pressure should I consider my Philly ready for steam ? Having built several kits or rebuilt engines let me offer this. The lower the pressure you can get it to run under air, the quicker the break-in period under steam. Not only are you seating the various engine parts but also all the running gear. Apply plenty of machine oil all around while performing this break in period on air. Open your air line every few minutes and recharge with oil. If you can get this engine to run smoothly down to 5-7 psi you'll be rewarded when you put steam to it. Don't forget to reverse direction periodically. Jim
Re: Back to O rings
Peter Foley wrote: Before making new cylinders, why not make new pistons? That, to me, would be a considerably easier exercise, would it not? regards, pf Thanks for responding, Peter. The groove as designed by Gordon Watson, is smaller than the ID of the Oring. This led me to believe that it is undesirable to not allow compression (from contact with the bore of the cylinder) to the inside of the Oring. By increasing the groove OD to enlarge the Oring OD, you capture the Oring between ID and OD. It is my understanding (and I could be wrong) that this is not the way Orings are designed to work. But if this is OK, then you bet, I'll make new pistons rather than new cylinders. PS. the Orings supplied by Gordon Watson (viton) were the correct OD (.438). I bought some Buna-N orings at the local tool supply store and they are undersize. I concluded that they wouldn't work UNLESS the OD of the piston groove were increased to bring the OD up to .438. Again, I ruled this out based on the logic above. But if it is OK to capture the Oring, please let me know before I make new cylinders. Thanks again you guys. royce in SB and back to work
Re: Back to O rings
Harry Wade wrote: A character-builder to be sure. My daughter just happened to visit me in the shop last night and we had a GREAT conversation while I sawed. royce in SB
Re: OT: bo museum latest pictures
It would seem a crime that the roundhouse wasn't designed to withstand anticipatable snow loads without risking irreplaceable artifacts (trains). But maybe these snow loads were outside the 100 year limits. Were they ? royce in SB Dave Cole wrote: folks: the bo museum has released a set of pictures from inside the roundhouse, that give you a graphic idea of the extent of the damage that the crash of the snow-laden roof caused. http://www.borail.org/roundhouse_restoration/ \dmc
Re: Wire Drawing?
If I were to throw my two cents in, I would say that the process of squeezing a big thing through a small hole is, in some circles, called drawing. If it's a wire being forced through a smaller hole, then the wire is drawn to form a smaller diameter wire. If it's a fluid (as in steam), being forced through a small aperture, then the pressure drops, velocity increases until the energy provided by the pressure is equalized, resulting in a maximum through put.. It is, in a sense, drawn through the aperture. Well, it was clear when I started this explanation : ) royce in SB Arthur S. Cohen wrote: Dear Mike, I stand corrected. About the wire drawing. There it is in black and white. After I read the information you sent I can see where you derive that description. But it doesn't make sense to me. But I have no experience in steam engines either. Arthur---Mexico City
Re: Instant Aster Collection
steve speck wrote: Think what would be involved to set up tooling, then to make each part, fit each part, finish, then make it all work.Steve S. If i had the time the money, i'd PAY someone $16000 to let me do it for them. royce in SB
Re: Soldering and welding require practice.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and most of them were women with no prior tool knowledge. Isn't that what we call a virgin ? this isn't why your last wife sold your tool collection out from under you, is it ? : ) royce in SB
Re: Missing postings from the group
Well I went on vacation for 9 days after the steamup and have been trying to catch up ever since. I did get a moment to work on the boiler for my philly, only to discover that I have to make the main barrel over again (thanks, Gary (Watson)) for sending me enough to make two). That's what happens when you deviate from the plans. royce in SB Anthony Dixon wrote: Where have all the live steamers gone?. Have not seen much e mail action in last few weeks. Is everyone going diesel-electric?. Or everyone out steaming and no problems?. Tony D.
Re: boiler bushings
Hi Steve. Here's a link to a pic of the boiler jig. boiler boring jig . Haven't tested the link. If it doesn't work, let me know. royce in SB Shyvers, Steve wrote: Royce, PS Harry. Used my boiler holding jig again last evening. Works GREAT ! You have Mike Martin's and my attention. Will you bring the boiler holding jig, or pix or a drawing of it to the Summer Steamup? Please? Steve
Re: boiler bushings
Something is amiss ! You may have to manually insert the link. http://home1.gte.net/res0939f/boilerjig.jpg This works. I just tried it. royce in SB Shyvers, Steve wrote: Royce, PS Harry. Used my boiler holding jig again last evening. Works GREAT ! You have Mike Martin's and my attention. Will you bring the boiler holding jig, or pix or a drawing of it to the Summer Steamup? Please? Steve
Re: boiler bushings
I should mention that this is Harry's design, not mine. But as with all his advice, it's on the money. royce in SB Shyvers, Steve wrote: Royce, PS Harry. Used my boiler holding jig again last evening. Works GREAT ! You have Mike Martin's and my attention. Will you bring the boiler holding jig, or pix or a drawing of it to the Summer Steamup? Please? Steve
Re: boiler bushings
Thanks Bill, Bob, Harry, et al, for your input re boiler bushing thread protection. Will report the results when I actually solder the boiler (which doesn't look like it'll happen before the Summer Steamup - darn !). royce in SB PS Harry. Used my boiler holding jig again last evening. Works GREAT !
boiler bushings
Hi Listers. Seems like the list has been latent lately. So . . . . here's a new question. I'm getting close to being ready to solder my Philly boiler and Jon Toumanian brought to my attention the potential problem of the high heat from the silver soldering process degrading the threads in the boiler bushings. We discussed several ideas to prevent this but I was wondering if anyone on the list has a solution. royce in SB
Re: Tender Hand Pump
Arthur S. Cohen wrote: Robb, The new 2002 Mercedez Bends 750 V12 has a very small stainless steel (no rust) return fuel pump on its fuel injector system that is ideal for water pump use for filling a boiler. But will my new 750 run/handle well without the return fuel pump ? royce in SB
Re: Pop Valves
Hi Mike. I would LOVE to have the .DWG file. You can be assured that if I use the design, you'll get full credit to any interested onlookers (assuming I ever get the loco in steam). Thanks. royce in SB Mike Chaney wrote: Royce asked:- So Mike, do you know the geometry necessary to make a true pop safety? And if so, would you be willing to share this info with someone who wants to make one for his Philly ? I can send to anyone interested a .DWG file (48k) or a .BMP file (495k) of the safety valve fitted to the 24T Shay. This is the same internally as the 14T Heisler (semi-pop), but threaded externally to accept the dome retainer nut. Mike
Re: Pop Valves
So Mike, do you know the geometry necessary to make a true pop safety? And if so, would you be willing to share this info with someone who wants to make one for his Philly ? royce in SB Mike Chaney wrote: Jeffrey Williams wrote:- I think it was a Heisler I saw that seemed to pop realistically Thank you for the compliment. The Heisler SVs are what I describe as semi-pop, in that they are not as scary as a proper pop valve and drop about 5-10psi before re-seating. They have a tendency to feather, which is a little wasteful on steam, but which some owners like because it adds atmosphere. I shall not be making any more of this type of safety valve for at least a year. Mike
Re: pinch rolls
You building a George Thomas set ? royce in SB Harry Wade wrote: At 04:57 PM 5/24/02 -0700, you wrote: Don't know if you would have the same problem around the holes. royce Royce, You'd think not . . . . . you'd HOPE not . . . . but my rolls aren't finished yet so I haven't tried it so I don't know. Regards, Harry
pinch rolls
Harry Wade wrote: . . . without bending rolls (everyone with a set of bending rolls raise your hand) I hereby raise my hand. Got a set of pinch rolls from David Smith Metalworks in UK. Work great ! Would be happy to roll a jacket or two for those in need. Haven't tried it with holed stock yet. Don't know if you would have the same problem around the holes. royce in SB
Re: another question
Peter Trounce wrote: Hi Royce, Depends on how much perfection you want to get. Hi Peter. Thanks for your suggestion. If I had as much experience metalworking as I do woodworking, I would use your method in a second. But I haven't gained the confidence with a file to create proper clearances in a silver solder joint. Now if it was wood, I regularly use hand tools to do things faster and better than machines (I still need to use calipers, though). The clearances between the tubes is so little that a little off here and a little off there might make a significant difference (only .050 between tubes). So I feel more confident locating the holes by machine. In time, I hope to be able to make a steamer with only a set of files and drills. : ) royce in Santa Barbara
Re: another question
Harry Wade wrote: Royce, There are several ways to do this but the first quick/cheap/good way to do it that comes to mind is to turn a recess to fit the head in a block of wood, . . . for light work wood kills several birds with one stone for me. Harry. Thanks for your suggestion. It crossed my mind to use wood, but wasn't sure it would be satisfactory. My experience using wood as formers for the end plugs showed me that wood might be useful for alot of jigging applications, but I wasn't sure it was rigid enough. Since I have LOTS of wood scraps (mostly honduran mahagony), I'm sure I'll use it for this kind of thing in the future. Thanks for the suggestion (and complete description of how to do it). royce in SB
another question
Hi folks. Thanks again for all the helpful input. Don't know what I (or others who may be struggling in the dark) would do without the input from those with experience in the esteric world of gauge one live steamers. The internet was born to assist us in our pursuits. : ) But all the helpful input has brought me to another question. I have built the boiler end plugs for my boiler out of .050 copper sheet, bending over a form, annealing, etc. And now it's time to bore holes for the flues. The OD of the smaller plug is only 1.4. How do you hole this bugger to accurately drill/bore/unibore the flue holes? I was planning on using my mill (with DRO) to locate the holes. Any suggestions ? royce in SB
Cole's Power Models
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and yes, they will be open longer Fantastic !
Re: Cole's Power Models
So Steve, where are you located ? royce in SB Ciambrone, Steve @ OS wrote: That is great news for me, now they will be about 15 min. from me. Will be an easy lunchhour run for me. Steve -Original Message- From: Royce Woodbury [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 7:04 AM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Cole's Power Models [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and yes, they will be open longer Fantastic ! CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE:This electronic transmission, including all attachments, is directed in confidence solely to the person(s) to whom it is addressed, or an authorized recipient, and may not otherwise be distributed, copied or disclosed. The contents of the transmission may also be subject to intellectual property rights and all such rights are expressly claimed and are not waived. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic transmission and then immediately delete this transmission, including all attachments, without copying, distributing or disclosing same.
