[biofuels-biz] Valero finds advantage in gasoline blend
http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/19962/story.htm Valero finds advantage in gasoline blend USA: February 26, 2003 HOUSTON - Not following its competitors in the California gasoline market has made money for Valero Energy Corp. (VLO.N), a spokeswoman told Reuters this week, but analysts say the company isn't crowing about it. They really don't mention the advantage of sticking with CARB, said Fadel Gheit, senior energy analyst with Fahnestock Co. Inc. This particular attribute is not something they are highlighting. CARB is the shorthand name for a blend of gasoline mandated by the state that is mixed with Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (MTBE) an additive that reduces tailpipe emissions. There is an advantage to be selling CARB, said Valero spokeswoman Mary Rose Brown. Most refiners switched to making a different gasoline blend called CARBOB, which uses ethanol instead of MTBE, at the beginning of the year. Valero and fellow San Antonio-based refiner Tesoro Petroleum Corp. (TSO.N) did not, opting to wait until being required to switch to CARBOB at the beginning of 2004. Since the beginning of this year, the wholesale price for CARB has been running about 4 cents per gallon higher than CARBOB. Last week, the difference was even wider with CARB at times priced eight cents higher than CARBOB. Valero won't say how much money it is making from being one of two big refiners producing CARB, but price did play a role in the company changing its mind about making small amounts of CARBOB this year. We at one time said we were going to make some CARBOB this year, but we looked at it and the economics weren't there, Brown said. A Tesoro spokesperson was unavailable for comment. A CARBOB price spike was expected as shortages of the new gasoline were expected. Those shortages have not developed, but price jumps may occur as refiners begin making the summer formula of CARBOB, analysts have said. The switch to CARBOB is being mandated by the state to reduce pollution from automotive fuels. MTBE and ethanol both cut the amount of waste in the car exhausts, but MTBE has been found in California groundwater, raising fears of another source of pollution from the fuel. Last year, the state pushed back the date from switching to CARBOB from Jan. 1, 2003 to Jan. 1 2004. REUTERS NEWS SERVICE Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Canadian ethanol needs subsidy boost - industry
http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/19967/story.htm Canadian ethanol needs subsidy boost - industry CANADA: February 26, 2003 WINNIPEG, Manitoba - Canada's fledgling ethanol industry needs an injection of federal subsidies to fuel its growth and reach federal environmental targets, analysts and lobbyists said yesterday. Ethanol costs 20 to 30 Canadian cents (13 to 20 cents) per liter more than the gasoline it displaces, said Dave Tupper, an economist with Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada. We know that ethanol does not compete in economic terms: it requires public intervention wherever it is used in the world, Tupper told an audience at Grain World, a major agricultural market outlook conference. The Canadian government wants to see 35 percent of gasoline contain 10 percent ethanol by 2010 as part of its commitments to reduce greenhouse gas emissions under the Kyoto Protocol, Tupper said. That would represent a market for 1.4 million liters of ethanol - seven times what Canada currently produces - and extra costs of C$350 million for Canadians through tax exemptions, direct industry subsidies or increased fuel prices, Tupper said. Canada ratified the Kyoto accord on global warming in December. It requires Canada to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 6 percent below 1990 levels by 2012. Currently, the ethanol portion of fuel is exempt from a 10-cent per liter federal tax, as well as most provincial road taxes. Ethanol lobbyists are hopeful the federal government will provide C$400 million to ethanol producers, although a recent federal budget did not earmark cash for that purpose. I don't believe we will reach 1.3 billion liters in the current climate, said Bliss Baker, president of the Canadian Renewable Fuels Association. Energy sources around the world receive subsidies, he said. The U.S. Congress is considering regulations and incentives that would see the market for alternative fuels zoom to 5 billion U.S. gallons (20 billion liters) over the next decade from the current 2 billion gallons, said Brian Kelly, a Canadian consultant who has studied the industry. More than 100 Canadian towns are interested in attracting ethanol plants, Baker said, noting a 150 million liter plant provides C$140 million to its immediate economy per year. There are more than 20 business plans in the works representing more than 1 billion liters of production, he said. This is telling me we have a wave, or a pent-up supply of ethanol on the horizon, Tupper said. Four Canadian ethanol plants currently produce about 175 million liters of fuel ethanol, Tupper said. Canada imports more than 100 million liters from the United States each year. A fifth plant, producing about 26 million liters a year, went bankrupt in December. Tupper said a 150-million liter plant employs about 40 people. He said 400 to 500 people could eventually be employed by the Canadian ethanol industry, while Baker pegged the number at 1,000 to 2,000. But a prominent agricultural economist said more ethanol plants on the Canadian prairies could stall growth in the livestock industry, which holds more economic potential. Daryl Kraft of the University of Manitoba said ethanol plants would eat up feed grain supplies and require more imports of U.S. corn in some years, raising feed costs. If this industry is going to thrive here, it's going to require more subsidies than the U.S. (industry), Kraft said. Story by Roberta Rampton REUTERS NEWS SERVICE Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Bush Eyes Public Lands For Renewable Energy
http://ens-news.com/ens/feb2003/2003-02-24-10.asp ens Bush Eyes Public Lands For Renewable Energy By J.R. Pegg DENVER, Colorado, February 24, 2003 (ENS) - Even as the Bush administration proposes slashing funding for most renewable energy programs in next year's budget, administration officials are touting the untapped potential of renewable energy resources located on millions of acres of federal land. A new government report finds that public lands have abundant opportunities for renewable energy development, assistant secretary of the Interior for land and minerals management Rebecca Watson told reporters Friday. Rebecca Watson, assistant secretary of the Interior for Land and Minerals Management (Photo courtesy The Bush Administration) Increasing our domestic development of renewable energy sources will help to reduce our dependency on foreign sources of energy, Watson said. The report analyzes the potential of geothermal, solar, wind and biomass resources on the majority of the 230 million acres managed by the Department of Interior's Bureau of Land Management (BLM). The report found that 63 BLM planning units in 11 surveyed states have high potential for the development of one or more renewable energy sources. But some said the report is not what the renewable energy industry needs to promote growth. It is a helpful contribution, but it will do little to further renewable energy development, said Alan Nogee, director of the Clean Energy Program at the Union of Concerned Scientists, a nonprofit research group. Expanded markets and federal incentives are needed to spur the renewable energy industry, Nogee explained. He argues that if the administration is serious about renewable energy, it should look both overseas and to U.S. state governments for successful strategies. Solar energy offers a virtually unlimited source of clean, renewable power. Here, the world's largest solar power facility, located near Kramer Junction, California, stretches into the distance. (Photo courtesy National Renewable Energy Laboratory) Today, for example, the United Kingdom announced some $1.6 billion in government funding to enable it to generate fully 20 percent of its electricity from wind, wave and solar power by 2020. The policy uses tax incentives to promote renewable energy generation and requires electricity suppliers to meet a proportion of their needs from renewable energy sources. Within the United States, 13 states have renewable energy standards that require their utilities to purchase varying percentages of their power from renewable sources, and some 12 more are discussing them. Yet the Bush administration has opposed forcing utilities to buy energy from renewable sources. The latest budget plan from the White House cuts funding for most renewable energy programs and virtually eliminates $23 million in grants and loans to farmers, ranchers and small businesses for the development of renewable energy projects and energy efficiency programs. This is a useful baby step when giant leaps are what is really needed to ensure our energy security and increase our renewable energy supply, Nogee said. The report, jointly prepared by the BLM and the Energy Department's National Renewable Energy Laboratory, relied upon federal data and statistics for lands within 11 western U.S. states - including Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, New Mexico, Nevada, Oregon, Utah, Washington and Wyoming - taking into account weather, terrain and the existence of roads, potential workers and transmission lines. A total of 35 BLM units were listed as having high potential for the near term development of geothermal energy. Twenty BLM planning units in seven Western states have high potential from three or more renewable energy sources. Eighteen of these sites are in Arizona, California, New Mexico, Nevada and Utah. Wind energy is the fastest growing segment of the world's renewable energy sector. Some conservation groups say these giant turbines are better suited for private property than for public landscapes. (Photo courtesy National Renewable Energy Laboratory) It is these sites that the report detailed as a starting point for discussions regarding priorities for BLM land use planning activities. BLM can then determine the best order in which to prepare or amend land use plans to meet the Interior Secretary's commitment to using energy from renewable resources on public lands, according to the report. Watson said that public land managers would be looking to identify areas where there is high potential for both renewable and nonrenewable energy, as documented in a recently released Congressional report on the Energy Policy and Conservation Act. Land use planners can use these two reports to locate transmission corridors where they are most needed, she said. This helps reduce impacts to the environment and is more efficient. Watson suggested
[biofuels-biz] A Hydrogen Economy Is a Bad Idea
When the energy industry gets involved, the only green left in the hydrogen economy will be the dollar sign. http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15239 A Hydrogen Economy Is a Bad Idea By David Morris, AlterNet February 24, 2003 When George Bush proposed a $1.7 billion program to promote hydrogen-fueled cars in the State of the Union Address, both sides of the aisle applauded. Almost everyone supports a hydrogen economy - conservatives and liberals, tree huggers and oil drillers. Such unanimity forecloses serious discussion. That's unfortunate. An aggressive pursuit of a hydrogen economy is wrongheaded and shortsighted. To understand why, we need to start with the basics. Hydrogen is the most abundant element on the planet. But it cannot be harvested directly. It must be extracted from another material. There is an upside to this and a downside. The upside is that a wide variety of materials contain hydrogen, which is one reason it has attracted such widespread support. Everyone has a dog in this fight. Renewable energy is a very little dog. Environmentalists envision an energy economy where hydrogen comes from water, and the energy used to accomplish this comes from wind. Big dogs like the nuclear industry also foresee a water-based hydrogen economy, but with nuclear as the power source that electrolyzes water. Nucleonics Week boasts that nuclear power is the only way to produce hydrogen on a large scale without contributing to greenhouse gas emissions. For the fossil fuel industry, not surprisingly, hydrocarbons will provide most of our future hydrogen. They already have a significant head start. Almost 50 percent of the world's commercial hydrogen now comes from natural gas. Another 20 percent is derived from coal. The automobile and oil companies are betting that petroleum will be the hydrogen source of the future. It was General Motors, after all, that coined the phrase the hydrogen economy. What does all this mean? A hydrogen economy will not be a renewable energy economy. For the next 20-50 years hydrogen will overwhelmingly be derived from fossil fuels or with nuclear energy. Consider that it has taken more than 30 years for the renewable energy industry to capture 1 percent of the transportation fuel market (ethanol) and 2 percent of the electricity market (wind, solar, biomass). Renewables are poised to rapidly expand their presence. A hydrogen economy would be a potentially debilitating diversion. As the President's 2004 budget demonstrates, any new money for hydrogen will be taken largely from budgets for energy efficiency and renewable energy. From a federal point of view, then, the more aggressively we pursue hydrogen, the less aggressively we pursue more beneficial technologies. To be successful, a hydrogen initiative will require the expenditure of hundreds of billions of dollars to build an entirely new energy infrastructure (pipelines, fueling stations, automobile engines). Much of this will come from public money. Little of this expenditure will directly benefit renewables. Indeed, it is likely that renewable energy will have about the same share of the hydrogen market in 2040 as it now has of the transportation and electricity markets. Far better to spend the billions the President wants to spend on hydrogen to increase renewable energy's share of the energy market from 1-2 percent to 25, 35, or even 50 percent in the same time frame. Not only will a hydrogen economy do little to expand renewable energy, it will increase pollution. Making hydrogen takes energy. We are using a fuel that could be used directly to provide electricity or mechnical power or heat to instead make hydrogen, which is then used to make electricity. Back in 1993 William Hoagland, senior project coordinator at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory's hydrogen program, prophetically told Time Magazine, I can't see why anyone would invest in additional equipment to make hydrogen rather than simply putting the electricity on the grid. We can, for example, run vehicles on natural gas or generate electricity using natural gas right now. Converting natural gas into hydrogen and then hydrogen into electricity increases the amount of greenhouse gases emitted. There is another energy-related problem with hydrogen. It is the lightest element, about eight times lighter than methane. Compacting it for storage or transport is expensive and energy intensive. A recent study by two Swiss engineers concludes, We have to accept that [hydrogen's] ... physical properties are incompatible with the requirements of the energy market. Production, packaging, storage, transfer and delivery of the gas ... are so energy consuming that alternatives should be considered. The most compelling rationale for making hydrogen is that it is a way to store energy. That could benefit renewable energy sources like wind and sunlight that can't generate energy on
[biofuels-biz] Re: Tony Blair White Paper on Global Warming and Renewable Energy
Thanks for the response from Great Britain. I'm going to forward it to some other groups, as you report a great deal to us about a few issues in renewables in Great Britain. The news report I read concerning impounding of biofuel-using vehicles discussed drivers who were using waste products from restauraunts, however I'll take it that the events also included or were predominated by use of oil from supermarket shelves. That the motives were financial was clear, and if it seemed that I was implying otherwise, then I have mis-spoken. What bothered me was that, regardless of the motives, a seemingly logical step would be not to quash an action but to find a way to address the problems. As I attempted to say before, it use of such fuels involved avoiding road taxes, why not find a way to tax use of such fuels, rather than simply preventing the evident move toward use of such fuels. Impoundment of vehicles in response to a movement to use more renewable fuels is not the way to go. The report of manufacturer claimed concern for biofuel-using vehicles is something we see a lot of in our biofuel-industry-watching. It seems to me that this concern is often stated by manufacturers where they see biofuel use springing up, but all they seem to want to advise is to protect the fuel-vehicle status quo. I haven't seen any vehicle manufacturer make any effort, where they claim there is a concern for the vehicle, to satisfy themselves of modifications that can be made, in their view, to use the fuels. The way to go, in my view, would be to address thier concerns in a manner that makes it possible for car owners to explore using the fuel, such as by making simple vehicle adjustments widely available if or where they are necessary at all, rather than just quashing the movement outright. Many people around the world use 100% biofuels, and biofuel-petrol mixtures, every day without damaging their designed-for-petrol vehicles one bit. On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:01:38 -, you wrote: The alternative fuel you are speaking of was cooking oil, straight off the supermarket shelves. This happened after the end of the fuel crisis created by some of the drivers of heavy haulage trucks and farmers blockading supplies. The price of fuel was very high and people wanted to avoid the high cost. The governement did not change the taxation on fuel, it was the price of crude that made the difference. The Automobile Association and Royal Automobile Club would not condone the use of cooking oil. If it was not mixed with sufficient quantities of diesel, it would corrode the fuel pump and other engine components, plus it was evading the tax on fuel for vehicles, a criminal offense (except for agricutlural use). Some vehicles were impounded. The issue and the reason for people buying cooking oil was not around the fact that it was a boifuel. There was no coverage of that as the issue - it was not the reason why people did it. It was purely money. --- The government approach for alternative fuels and home energy production is not covered much by this white paper as it is not a new issue, much of the subsidies are already in place, so they aren't something to be pushed for in a white paper. There are 50% grants for solar panels and wind generation projects at the home. This was something that was called for in a previous white paper and were introduced this year. For vehicles, there are around 40% grants for CNG, electric and LPG conversions or new vehicles. Hybrids are granted £1000 ($1400) for new vehicles. There's also grant for commercial vehicles. Goverment organisations and grants linked to Transport Action: http://www.powershift.org.uk and http://www.cleanup.org.uk A large project in Scotland is to make 50,000,000 litres of waste cooking oil into blended bio-diesel, per year, is due to be built this year. It's not the only one. The companies involved do not see the need for government subsidy. Bio-diesel is starting to be made available on large numbers of petrol station forecourts in the south- east of England and it's spreading north. --- The concentration on renewable energy is to remove the dependency on imported oil and existing power stations in the future. Both local (North Sea) oil and British coal (very high energy, quality coal) is getting costly to extract and will soon run out. However, there is a balance to be made between keeping running the existing fossil-fuel and nuclear power stations, which is not so ecological and the economic benefit of using the stations' full lifespan. The UK has a comfortable electric energy surplus so there is no need to create more conventional power stations. The investment has gone into renewables. Europe's largest wind farm went online a few months ago on the coast of Scotland. The problems with wind are objections by the local population (noise at startup can be high). The UK is very densly populated and the few open, unpopulated,
Yahoo access problems - was Re: [biofuels-biz] New file uploaded
Randy wrote: Dave, I encountered the same problem. Yahoo seems to be having some problems - well, Yahoo IS a problem, but there are currently a few more glitches than usual, according to the moderators' group. There seem to be some complicated work-arounds, but nothing I can recommend, and there's nothing I can do to help you. I take it you're both unable to access the list website at all? All I can suggest is that you try opening a fresh account at Yahoo, with different ID and password, and maybe a different email address too (which means subscribing again with that address). But try it without another email address, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to have two accounts with the same email address. (But who knows??) Sorry I can't be of more help than that. Please let me know offlist if you're having difficulties and how you fare - including if it works! Good luck. Keith Addison Moderator From: David Preskett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuels-biz] New file uploaded Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 16:08:46 + How do you get to the file uploads? I get to the Yahoo site , it recognises my server, greets me with my user name and when I put in my password (yes, I've checked it and had it confirmed by Yahoo) I get an invalid password message. What am I doing wrong? Dave biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com wrote: Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the biofuels-biz group. File: /Freeze points Uploaded by : homestead01096 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Description : Biofuels this winter You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuels-biz/files/Freeze%20points To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, homestead01096 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- David Preskett, BSc (Hons.), AIWSc [EMAIL PROTECTED] We can get fuel from fruit, from the sumac by the roadside, or from apples, weeds, saw dust; almost anything. There is enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to cultivate that field for a hundred years. And it remains for someone to find how this fuel can be produced commercially -- better fuel at a better price than we now know. -Henry Ford- University of Wales BioComposites Centre Deiniol Road Bangor Gwynedd LL57 2UW http://www.bc.bangor.ac.uk Tel +44 (0)1248-370588 Fax: +44 (0)1248-370594 Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Fwd: Invitation from Colombia
Any responses direct to Giuseppina Marcazzo V. please, he's not a list member. (And I ain't no Dr, LOL!) Best Keith From: TECNICAA [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Invitation from Colombia Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 11:19:26 -0500 Dr. KEITH ADDISON. Journey to Forever Dear Dr. Addison. The Industrial Development of Biotechnology and Clean production Corporation CORPODIB, The Colombian Sugar Cane Producers Association ASOCAA and The Colombian Association of Sugar Cane Technologists TECNICAA are organizing a semminar of fuel ethanol production from sugar cane to be oxigenate for Colombian gasoline. The semminar it«s between June 17th. and June 18th / 2.003 in Cali, Colombia. We are interested on bring to the participants a succes story of ethanol production based in maize. As we saw at your web page there is a sucess story in Minnesota and, we supose there are more. We wnat to know the possibility yhat you or some one from your institution or from the Plant at Minnesota can accept our invitation to participate with an oral presentation on : Fuel Ethanol Production from maize. Also, we are looking for someone who can participate with a presentation about : Experience Ethanol Fuel as oxigenate for gasoline in U.S.A. Could you please tell us, if it will be possible and the conditions for your displacement and participation (Tickets, Hotel, Fees, etc...) The participants of the semminar will be representatives of South and Central America that are seeking for opportunities throug ethanol fuel production. Those that are involved with decission making . Presidents, CEO«S, General Managers, Managers of technical areas at public or private institutions that consider this initiative. Most of them are sugar cane producers. Thank«s a lot. We will stay in attention to your answer. Best Regards, Giuseppina Marcazzo V. TECNICAA Executive Director Semminar Cordinator Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Mark flames Domenick was Re: SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
What a bunch of xxx ramblings. You have obviously jumped to the exact opposite conclusion from what I had intended. I AM PROUD to say that I am a first generation Italian-American. My parents and a great number of my relatives are immigrants. They came here at great risk and effort to get what America had to offer. These declarations that people who want the best for themselves and their families are grotesquely averse to responsible resource managementis at best self righteous and at worst anti-American. They did not want to come here to consume more and destroy the environment like the overpopulating hordes they are . They wanted to participate in our abundance. You are claiming that WE, in our abundance, are destroying the world. We have begun to change the past by the fact that we have passed and are enforcing laws that force industries to clean up their act. And it is working. (Not as fast as some might want) We have illegal aliens in our country and in other developed countries because they want the same thing and can't get permission to come. If they cannot leave their homes and are living in deep poverty, they will turn to whatever they can to survive. In some cases this means poaching wildlife, stripping forests for farmland. In the effort to survive, there can be as much environmental damage caused as if large factories were put into place without controls. The best we can do for them is to help them learn how to participate in the same systems that have brought abundance to us. There are no resource limits - only mental limits. Domenick Amato - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 10:06 PM Subject: [biofuel] Mark flames Domenick was Re: SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears what the![EMAIL PROTECTED]@!! what slimy rock did this ^*#%* garbage crawl out from under? sorry to everyone else, but this sounds like a slightly veiled version (what, domenick, you embarrassed to come out and say the full thing?) kind of a familiar anti-immigration argument, usually fueled by racism, common in the US- among the more ignorant idiots out there. domenick, considering your Italian last name, I wonder what the hell you're thinking with this anti-immigration stuff anyway. how long ago did other Americans say this kind of trash about your ancestors coming here? I was about to start explaining the argument but it's too frigging stupid and outrageous (damn, I can't resist. translation: those people working in sweatshops want to come here and consume more and destroy the environment like the overpopulating hordes they are, whereas we (presumably US based on your mpg statement elsewhere) are the only responsible stewards of the north america cause of the superior manner in which we consume that massive percentage of the globe's resources-) we use more resources but may well be causing less damage- what the HELL are you talking aobut in that last statement ?? and 'our environment is getting better?' I beg your pardon??? mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Domenick V. Amato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why is it that so many of the people in those sweatshops that you mention want to become as grotesquely averse to responsible resource management as we are? In fact, they are more destructive of the environment than we are. Having so little to begin with they often turn to the nature and the environment to get what ever they can to survive. We use more resources but may well be causing less damage in the process. In addition we are, as a group, working to repair past errors. Our environment, while certainly not perfect, is getting better. Isn't this type of responsible improvement what this biofuels discussion group is all about? Dom Amato - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 10:41 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Most of them are only adornments, are we about to ban other forms of jewelry and trivia? Do you mean trivia like blood diamonds, sweat shop prepared designer clothing, harp seal coats and whale meat? Probably not. Even those trinkets that have been banned are coming back into fashion under new rules of rationalization. Elephant ivory, rare hardwoods, turtle soup... As for the fundamental human population problem? The problem is a little more fundamental than that. It's not the population that is the primary problem. It's the human mindset that is grotesquely averse to responsible resource management, inclusive of all the political precursors. Disposing of a few humans here and there only stunts the primary problemKind of like putting a temporary patch of Medicaire, Medicaid and Social
[biofuel] Politics and Biofuels
I am an engineer at a major manufacturer of heavy duty diesel engines. I went looking for, and found this discussion board because I have something of a professional as well as personal interest in biodiesel in particular. Perhaps I came upon this discussion board at an atypical time, but I have to say that I am a bit disappointed that so many of the recent posts have been more or less exclusively political in nature. Now I realize that biofuels is something of a political subject, but I also am a member of a number of other discussion boards, and by and large the discussions there even when in disagreement tend to stay a bit more respectful. I understand individuals' desire here to educate others on political topics related to biofuels, but nobody likes to be told they are stupid, or their comments are stupid - perhaps ignorant and uneducated, but not stupid. I don't like sifting through all of these messages online since Yahoo is slow and interjects advertisements. I also cannot afford to be e- mailed all of them due to my e-mail system limitations. In the end, it is just too burdensome to find relevant information on this board right now. I have to say that I am politically a conservative MOSTLY. I don't agree with all of the current administrations views. There was a great deal more I didn't agree with in the previous administration. However, I would never presume to believe that Mr. Clinton was stupid, or drank too much diet soda as some here would have us believe of President Bush. Perhaps that comment was tongue-in-cheek, I don't know as its hard to tell when just reading the text. Anyway, this post is already too long so I'll wrap it up. I'd like to see more relevant discussions of biofuels here. But I'm new, and if this is the way the majority wants the board to go - then who am I to think it should be different. I think that there is no need to offend others or be offended. You all do as you like, but I doubt I'll be around this board much. Greg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Thank you for your clarification and your comments. I will limit myself to discussion about biofuels - although it has been very tempting to jump in (on?) statements which appear to be very disagreeable. Dom Amato - Original Message - From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Domenick V. Amato wrote: That's probably one of the most lame answers I have heard in a very long time. I can assure you that the person who was in the SUV does not agree. Railroad trains can kill SUVs and Yugos can kill pedestrians. Should we ban railroad trains and Yugos or SUVs and pedestrians? We probably should ban cars below the size of an SUV because they are the most unsafe of vehicles when involved in a accident. In my experience, we effectively do ban railroad trains. We require them to have their own roads, and where they do intersect with automotive traffic, they require crossing gates or special warning signage, all erected at the expense of the rail operators. Pedestrians are often provided with their own paths (sidewalks, crosswalks etc) to keep them separated from automotive traffic to reduce injuries from contact. In some places, heavy trucks (over 5 tonnes) get their own roads, or at least their own lanes on highways. So far, we do not require SUVs and light trucks to have their own roads, but this may be primarily because their appearance in large quantities is a relatively new phenomenon. As for the tone of this list, I think if you review this thread, no one here has proposed a ban on SUVs. We had a couple of posters who chose to interpret some comments in that way. We do have some folks (including me) that would prefer to see drivers of heavy SUVs obtain additional licensing to operate these vehicles to ensure they know how they differ from smaller vehicles with lower centers of gravity. Rollovers are a greater concern with SUVs and other high clearance vehicles than those with lower CGs. Larger equipment is topical, as it often uses diesel engines. Still, I don't plan to use a large diesel truck for commuting over a smaller vehicle just because it can run biodiesel. Darryl McMahon Darryl McMahon 48 Tarquin Crescent, Econogics, Inc. Nepean, Ontario K2H 8J8 It's your planet. Voice: (613)784-0655 If you won't look Fax: (613)828-3199 after it, who will?http://www.econogics.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] (no subject)
Attached below are some things to look at from my hard drive. If you do a google search using wax inhibitors diesel, you will find a great deal of information. Dom Amato IRG1, February 27 at 4PM, MRL Room 2053, Professor Jeffrey L. Hutter Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario, Canada Control of Crystallization by Kinetic Inhibitors Kinetic inhibitors are additives that affect crystallization kinetics by adsorbing to the surfaces of growing crystals, without altering thermodynamic properties such as the melting point. In addition to slowing the overall rate of crystallization, inhibitors that bond preferentially to specific crystal faces are able to control crystal morphology. Since they act at the surface of the crystal, apparently by blocking step flow, inhibitors are effective at exceedingly small concentrations - their effect has been measured at mole fractions as low as 10-9. This opportunity to control crystallization rates and crystal morphology has led to the development of tailor-made additives for many systems of commercial interest. For instance, the petroleum industry uses polymeric additives to prevent the formation of gas-hydrates in pipelines and to prevent precipitation of wax from diesel fuels. We are studying such additives in model n-alkane systems. We find that the presence of the polymer dramatically alters the growth morphology of the wax: rather than the usual plate-like growth, we see forms with all of the attributes of spherulites typical of bulk polymer growth. Since models for spherulitic growth postulate lamellar alignment by entropic pressure due to dangling polymer chains, the surface-adsorbed polymers are likely responsible for the similar alignment in wax spherulites. Under certain conditions, we see oscillatory growth resulting in well-defined bands. We are modeling this effect as a coupling between the wax diffusion field and the dynamics of additive adsorption. http://www.mrl.ucsb.edu/mrl/events/seminars/show_seminar.php?key=1014854400Hutter - Original Message - From: filip.ponsaerts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 9:50 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] (no subject) Dear Dom Amato, Can you elaborate somewhat more on this. I've already seen several research papers stating that the 'normal' available additives for dino-diesel do little or nothing for Biodiesel. On the other hand, there are a few commercial products available which claim to to the thing for BioD. I'm making my BioD based on animal fat (WVO), so I only can use a mixture of dino and BIO-Diesel to get the needed lower gelpoint. So I would very much be intrested in any solution to lower the gelpoint without dino-diesel, prefferably in a reliable, cheap and... homemade(?) way. Thnks, Filip = Original Message From biofuel@yahoogroups.com = You might consider one of the wax crystal inhibitors used as an additive for diesel fuel. It doesn't take much but they drop the wax point of diesel fuels. It should work for these fuels. Dom Amato - Original Message - From: gumpon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 7:15 PM Subject: [biofuel] (no subject) Dear Keith I have the problem with the methyle ester we produced from stearin, crude or olein palm oil. When the temperature drops to about less than 15 or 10 C, the ester become solid waxy ( this might come from some of the stearin which was not converted to ester ?) but it become clear liquid again when the temperature increases. Do you have any idea or suggestion to solve this problem because we use this ester to run the locomotive in South of Thailand and this problem occured when the ambient temperature droped especially during the night. Regards Gumpon Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Basic Technical Data for Diesel FuelsBasic
Re: [biofuel] Just one man's observation! Was: Looking at theRESPONSE ... too all that's going onin the world.
Robert I do not disagree with you. Some times, though, it is difficult to distinguish the purely political from the politics of biofuels. Truly, discussion is an American pastime and must be encouraged. I simply feel that we can achieve better results for both the discussion on politics and for the discussion on biofuels if we were to be more disciplined and focused about topics that are so important. You have my opinion. I'm sure that people who agree and disagree will continue to do so - as they normally do in a discussion. Dom - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 11:02 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Just one man's observation! Was: Looking at theRESPONSE ... too all that's going onin the world. Domenick V. Amato wrote: Why don't you move your discussions to a group for which it is appropriate? You are certainly entitled to what ever political opinions you have and you are entitled to speak whatever you like. This, however, is NOT the place for it. It is SPAM relative to the topics for which this group is organized. To the extent that you continue with this political self-indulgence, you damage the purpose of this group. Dom Amato Political discussion is VITAL to the future of biofuels. This evening is the first time since I've been a member of this group that I've read a post from you, so perhaps you're new. Many of us have been contributing for a long time (years, even!), and the discussion often yields fruitful information for thought or future experimentation. A certain member, when lamenting the relative uselessness of lightweight modern American trucks for snow plowing, (clearly an off topic post!) mentioned that he runs up to 50% diesel in his small block Chevy powered truck. I've often thought that using a Babington atomizer would be an excellent way to get a spark ignition engine to burn vegetable oil--at least one running at a constant speed for power generation. In fact, I've spent a lot of time thinking about modifying the Babington apparatus as a fuel reforming device. (But I just bought a supercharger for my pathetic, four cylinder Ford Ranger and my longsuffering wife isn't happy with me right now. . . ) The post I mentioned above had nothing to do with biofuels, but the ideas that wove their threads through my mind after reading the message certainly did. I read through well over 100 messages a day, many of them cross posted from wastewatts, the EV list, micro cogeneration and others. Much of that discussion is utterly meaningless to me, but once in awhile I come across something valuable. (So, either read fast, as I do, or filter your messages to limit the content. There is no harm in self imposed censorship!) Trying to limit discussion puts you in the position of being final arbiter of what ideas are acceptable to exchange in this forum. I neither know, nor trust you (yet, anyway!), and from what I've read thus far, I don't think you fully understand the spirit of this particular forum. After all, why shouldn't I be able to talk about the linkage between poor political leadership, the absolute lack of a decent energy policy and the Fundamentalist, Dispensationalist antichristian ideology that supports military action to INCREASE the misery of people who have no ability to defend themselves against us? (I heard an excellent feature this morning on NPR about this very thing! See the link at: http://discover.npr.org/rundowns/rundown.jhtml?prgId=3prgDate=current The news story was entitled: Evangelicals for War--an oxymoron if there ever SHOULD be one! My interest in reducing energy use and using unconventional fuels necessarily limits the audience with whom I can discuss these issues. Personally, I would like to hear what like minded people are thinking--even if they disagree with me, as many in this forum do. Dissent is NOT unAmerican! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Tanks Alot!
what were these tanks used for ? -Original Message- From: Mark Foltarz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:10 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Tanks Alot! Todd, Holy smokes did I find some killer tanks today. These things are completely enclosed stainless steel rectangular tanks. They have to be at least 600 gallons. Totally suited for methanol reclamaition - there is a hatch on top and a few fittings. Easily modifiable to add heat - or heck just build a fire underneath! Slight slope to drain on the the side. $600 wait a month and they will be $300 Mark __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/M=246920.2960106.4328965.2848452/D=egroupweb/S=1705083269:HM/A=1464858/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/cpm/grp/300_Cquo_1/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=246920.2960106.4328965.2848452/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1464858/rand=556102477 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Wow! Any German or Russian metal? Hey, fire them all up and it could be like Kirsk summer of '43! Mark --- harley3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hakan: Off subject. sorry, but 20 miles south of where I live. There is a gentlemen that collects and rents out US tanks, and APC. Old Sherman's to newer M-60s. All the guns are spiked and welded. I hear they are not cheap to rent but he has a open field that you can take one out and play. Harley -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:12 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Greg, Absolutely and I envy you. Being in the signal corps the limit for me was bandwagon truck (wheel in front) and other larger/smaller vehicles with wheels. I started as communication specialist with Morse, codification and that stuff, but after a transfer the slots for this in the new place was filled. Since I had professional licence for Taxi, Buses and Trucks (financed my studies that way), I did some time on transportation support, when waiting for assignment. Finally I ended up as group leader for quality testing of electronic equipment/material deliveries. I would have loved to try or learn to drive a tank -:). Hakan At 10:42 AM 2/27/2003 -0700, you wrote: - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 01:21 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I'm sure that being able to drive a 62 ton M-1 Abrems, qualifies me to drive a 1 1/2 ton SUV. :-P Greg H. 2. That it is ensured that people who drives them have the necessary special knowledge to do so, by demanding that they have a truck license or similar. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] minivans and detroit was Re: SUV question -
Neoteric Biofuels Inc wrote: snip Some days the owners do, of course, need these things, but almost all the ones I saw were empty and the funny thing is, a 4 cylinder turbodiesel got me and 120+ litres of fuel (when I left here), tools, clothing, computer and digital video studio there and back, at temps as low as -15C, and at over 50 mpg (average speed around 100 km/h) The perceived need and the reality are frequently two different things. I lived in Terrace, which is in west central B.C. --an area that receives tremendous quantities of snow--for a little over two years. I drove around in a rear wheel drive 1985 Pontiac Parisienne through snow and ice every winter and only got stuck twice. (Both times on a slippery incline very close to the school where I taught. My students loved to make fun of my innate Californian inability to drive in the snow. . .) In those conditions, I kept a candle in the glove box, blankets and a shovel in the trunk, but never needed four wheel drive. Even on a trip up to Cranberry Junction during deep winter, all season radials were more than sufficient to get me around. My lovely wife had a 2.8 liter 5 speed Camaro at that time. We kept a pair of cylinder heads in the back of that thing and NEVER got stuck! Now that I live in the mild climate east of Vancouver, I drive a 2.3 liter 5 speed Ford Ranger. It's two wheel drive and remarkably good in the slippery snow we get down here. Of course, it helps to drive cautiously in inclement weather! (The big four wheel drive trucks and SUVs seem to be the first ones in the ditch whenever it snows. . .) The Ranger delivers no better 10 kilometers per liter no matter how carefully I drive it. Personally, I find this fuel economy pretty pathetic, given that my propane powered Pontiac with a 5.7 liter V 8 used to get better than 6 km / liter with an automatic transmission, and it carried around nearly 1 tonne of additional mass! But the truck is very practical and I'm having a hard time letting it go. . . (Why buy a car when you can have a truck???) Replacing the Ranger with a full sized diesel is an option I've considered. But I don't need 4 wheel drive, and the diesel trucks in my price range are in MUCH rattier condition than my Ranger. To find something comparable, I'd have to spend over $20 000. I can buy a LOT of gasoline for that! (Although I don't need anything full sized, I drove a 6.3 turbo diesel a couple of months ago and LOVED the throttle response--it was like my '73 Chevelle all over again. . .) Small trucks with diesels used to be easier to find than they are now. Personally, I'd like one of those 4 door turbo diesel Rangers built in Indonesia! Apparently, however, it's impossible to import them into Canada, and Ford seems unwilling to build them here. Instead, we get the Explorer SporTrac, with it's completely USELESS box and ONLY a gasoline engine. Too bad! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Ethanol mower -- was: Re: Another dumbo question
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 23:59:19 -0600 From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Ethanol mower -- was: Re: Another dumbo question Alcohol By Volume Hi Shane, What is ABV ?? Eat-Drink-Smoke and be Happy. Shane. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] crude palm oil
Hi, Does anyone have information about the transesterification using crude palm oil? How many percent of conversion can be reached? Are the components that are not transesterified being analyzed? What is it? Is it triglyceride? C20 too? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Harley, Thank you for your thought and I will note it down. I have not been in US for 5 years now and miss it and my friends there. When you no longer travel for work, the opportunities gets fewer. If I get there again, I will tell you and it would be great fun to try an old Sherman. Hakan At 10:06 PM 2/27/2003 -0600, you wrote: Hakan: Off subject. sorry, but 20 miles south of where I live. There is a gentlemen that collects and rents out US tanks, and APC. Old Sherman's to newer M-60s. All the guns are spiked and welded. I hear they are not cheap to rent but he has a open field that you can take one out and play. Harley -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:12 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Greg, Absolutely and I envy you. Being in the signal corps the limit for me was bandwagon truck (wheel in front) and other larger/smaller vehicles with wheels. I started as communication specialist with Morse, codification and that stuff, but after a transfer the slots for this in the new place was filled. Since I had professional licence for Taxi, Buses and Trucks (financed my studies that way), I did some time on transportation support, when waiting for assignment. Finally I ended up as group leader for quality testing of electronic equipment/material deliveries. I would have loved to try or learn to drive a tank -:). Hakan At 10:42 AM 2/27/2003 -0700, you wrote: - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 01:21 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I'm sure that being able to drive a 62 ton M-1 Abrems, qualifies me to drive a 1 1/2 ton SUV. :-P Greg H. 2. That it is ensured that people who drives them have the necessary special knowledge to do so, by demanding that they have a truck license or similar. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] minivans and detroit was Re: SUV question -
Robert, In Sweden it is a lot of snow and the season from Stockholm and up can be 6 month. When I learned to drive 45 years ago, somebody told me on slippery roads, drive like you have eggs between feet and pedal and a woman in you arms, no force and gentle movements. A very good advice that I never forgot and practice in both situations. Hakan At 11:22 PM 2/27/2003 -0800, you wrote: Neoteric Biofuels Inc wrote: snip Some days the owners do, of course, need these things, but almost all the ones I saw were empty and the funny thing is, a 4 cylinder turbodiesel got me and 120+ litres of fuel (when I left here), tools, clothing, computer and digital video studio there and back, at temps as low as -15C, and at over 50 mpg (average speed around 100 km/h) The perceived need and the reality are frequently two different things. I lived in Terrace, which is in west central B.C. --an area that receives tremendous quantities of snow--for a little over two years. I drove around in a rear wheel drive 1985 Pontiac Parisienne through snow and ice every winter and only got stuck twice. (Both times on a slippery incline very close to the school where I taught. My students loved to make fun of my innate Californian inability to drive in the snow. . .) In those conditions, I kept a candle in the glove box, blankets and a shovel in the trunk, but never needed four wheel drive. Even on a trip up to Cranberry Junction during deep winter, all season radials were more than sufficient to get me around. My lovely wife had a 2.8 liter 5 speed Camaro at that time. We kept a pair of cylinder heads in the back of that thing and NEVER got stuck! Now that I live in the mild climate east of Vancouver, I drive a 2.3 liter 5 speed Ford Ranger. It's two wheel drive and remarkably good in the slippery snow we get down here. Of course, it helps to drive cautiously in inclement weather! (The big four wheel drive trucks and SUVs seem to be the first ones in the ditch whenever it snows. . .) The Ranger delivers no better 10 kilometers per liter no matter how carefully I drive it. Personally, I find this fuel economy pretty pathetic, given that my propane powered Pontiac with a 5.7 liter V 8 used to get better than 6 km / liter with an automatic transmission, and it carried around nearly 1 tonne of additional mass! But the truck is very practical and I'm having a hard time letting it go. . . (Why buy a car when you can have a truck???) Replacing the Ranger with a full sized diesel is an option I've considered. But I don't need 4 wheel drive, and the diesel trucks in my price range are in MUCH rattier condition than my Ranger. To find something comparable, I'd have to spend over $20 000. I can buy a LOT of gasoline for that! (Although I don't need anything full sized, I drove a 6.3 turbo diesel a couple of months ago and LOVED the throttle response--it was like my '73 Chevelle all over again. . .) Small trucks with diesels used to be easier to find than they are now. Personally, I'd like one of those 4 door turbo diesel Rangers built in Indonesia! Apparently, however, it's impossible to import them into Canada, and Ford seems unwilling to build them here. Instead, we get the Explorer SporTrac, with it's completely USELESS box and ONLY a gasoline engine. Too bad! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Solar powered air conditioning Stirling Motors
http://www.whispergen.com/ The revolutionary WhisperGen Personal Power Station is a micro combined heat/power generator based on an external combustion (Stirling) engine. It is the result of 8 years of design and development work by Whisper Tech Ltd.. Quiet clean burning and extremely efficient,. the WhisperGen is able to use a multitude of liquid or gaseous fuels and will change the way in which electricity is produced and distributed throughout the world. Mark Check out this link they have 5hp stirling motors, I personally don't know a thing about Stirling motors but all the hubub about stirling motors sparked my interest. I ran across this link from someones post in here. They are in Japan and I could not find a price anywhere on the web site. Hope this is of help to ya. http://www.stirling-tech.com/index.htm --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, I am just waiting to see any real stirling motors that can do any appreciable amount of work and are available for purchase. Little kits that power fans from hot cups of coffee are great for the Captain Kangaroo bunch. But are there any real motors on the order of 5 bhp that arer available for purchase? Sun Power in Athens, Oh ( http://sunpower.com/enthusiast/index.html) is supposed be to be some kind of Sterling mecca, but they are probably so tired of being inundated with basement tinkerers like myself, that they don't want to share much information. Also I believe their specialty now is the CryoCooler - a novel artifact of the sterling motor - it becomes a refrigirator if you run power in to it. Reverse the power input and the same end turns very hot. So the stirling motor can function as a heat pump. Todd have you ever chatted with those folks there at SunPower? There is a group on Yahoo called SESUSA (http://www.sesusa.org) . Good info there but I have not seen any real workable engines that would be considered a powerplant that is available to a regular joe. Still pretty exotic yet. Yours, Mark Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] minivans and detroit was Re: SUV question -
We can get right hand drive turbo diesel and diesel vans, pickups and Land Cruisers up here in the Okanagan, all low mileage and nice condition. Kind of pricey for their age, but not abused - 15 years and older, and you can import. I want a double cab Toyota Hilux...not sure about going to the right hand drive though, mostly a concern about passing motorhomes and trucks and not being able to peek out around them easily enough. Edward Beggs http://www.biofuels.ca On Thursday, February 27, 2003, at 11:22 PM, robert luis rabello wrote: Neoteric Biofuels Inc wrote: snip Some days the owners do, of course, need these things, but almost all the ones I saw were empty and the funny thing is, a 4 cylinder turbodiesel got me and 120+ litres of fuel (when I left here), tools, clothing, computer and digital video studio there and back, at temps as low as -15C, and at over 50 mpg (average speed around 100 km/h) The perceived need and the reality are frequently two different things. I lived in Terrace, which is in west central B.C. --an area that receives tremendous quantities of snow--for a little over two years. I drove around in a rear wheel drive 1985 Pontiac Parisienne through snow and ice every winter and only got stuck twice. (Both times on a slippery incline very close to the school where I taught. My students loved to make fun of my innate Californian inability to drive in the snow. . .) In those conditions, I kept a candle in the glove box, blankets and a shovel in the trunk, but never needed four wheel drive. Even on a trip up to Cranberry Junction during deep winter, all season radials were more than sufficient to get me around. My lovely wife had a 2.8 liter 5 speed Camaro at that time. We kept a pair of cylinder heads in the back of that thing and NEVER got stuck! Now that I live in the mild climate east of Vancouver, I drive a 2.3 liter 5 speed Ford Ranger. It's two wheel drive and remarkably good in the slippery snow we get down here. Of course, it helps to drive cautiously in inclement weather! (The big four wheel drive trucks and SUVs seem to be the first ones in the ditch whenever it snows. . .) The Ranger delivers no better 10 kilometers per liter no matter how carefully I drive it. Personally, I find this fuel economy pretty pathetic, given that my propane powered Pontiac with a 5.7 liter V 8 used to get better than 6 km / liter with an automatic transmission, and it carried around nearly 1 tonne of additional mass! But the truck is very practical and I'm having a hard time letting it go. . . (Why buy a car when you can have a truck???) Replacing the Ranger with a full sized diesel is an option I've considered. But I don't need 4 wheel drive, and the diesel trucks in my price range are in MUCH rattier condition than my Ranger. To find something comparable, I'd have to spend over $20 000. I can buy a LOT of gasoline for that! (Although I don't need anything full sized, I drove a 6.3 turbo diesel a couple of months ago and LOVED the throttle response--it was like my '73 Chevelle all over again. . .) Small trucks with diesels used to be easier to find than they are now. Personally, I'd like one of those 4 door turbo diesel Rangers built in Indonesia! Apparently, however, it's impossible to import them into Canada, and Ford seems unwilling to build them here. Instead, we get the Explorer SporTrac, with it's completely USELESS box and ONLY a gasoline engine. Too bad! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] minivans and detroit was Re: SUV question -
Very good indeed. On Friday, February 28, 2003, at 12:46 AM, Hakan Falk wrote: Robert, In Sweden it is a lot of snow and the season from Stockholm and up can be 6 month. When I learned to drive 45 years ago, somebody told me on slippery roads, drive like you have eggs between feet and pedal and a woman in you arms, no force and gentle movements. A very good advice that I never forgot and practice in both situations. Hakan At 11:22 PM 2/27/2003 -0800, you wrote: Neoteric Biofuels Inc wrote: snip Some days the owners do, of course, need these things, but almost all the ones I saw were empty and the funny thing is, a 4 cylinder turbodiesel got me and 120+ litres of fuel (when I left here), tools, clothing, computer and digital video studio there and back, at temps as low as -15C, and at over 50 mpg (average speed around 100 km/h) The perceived need and the reality are frequently two different things. I lived in Terrace, which is in west central B.C. --an area that receives tremendous quantities of snow--for a little over two years. I drove around in a rear wheel drive 1985 Pontiac Parisienne through snow and ice every winter and only got stuck twice. (Both times on a slippery incline very close to the school where I taught. My students loved to make fun of my innate Californian inability to drive in the snow. . .) In those conditions, I kept a candle in the glove box, blankets and a shovel in the trunk, but never needed four wheel drive. Even on a trip up to Cranberry Junction during deep winter, all season radials were more than sufficient to get me around. My lovely wife had a 2.8 liter 5 speed Camaro at that time. We kept a pair of cylinder heads in the back of that thing and NEVER got stuck! Now that I live in the mild climate east of Vancouver, I drive a 2.3 liter 5 speed Ford Ranger. It's two wheel drive and remarkably good in the slippery snow we get down here. Of course, it helps to drive cautiously in inclement weather! (The big four wheel drive trucks and SUVs seem to be the first ones in the ditch whenever it snows. . .) The Ranger delivers no better 10 kilometers per liter no matter how carefully I drive it. Personally, I find this fuel economy pretty pathetic, given that my propane powered Pontiac with a 5.7 liter V 8 used to get better than 6 km / liter with an automatic transmission, and it carried around nearly 1 tonne of additional mass! But the truck is very practical and I'm having a hard time letting it go. . . (Why buy a car when you can have a truck???) Replacing the Ranger with a full sized diesel is an option I've considered. But I don't need 4 wheel drive, and the diesel trucks in my price range are in MUCH rattier condition than my Ranger. To find something comparable, I'd have to spend over $20 000. I can buy a LOT of gasoline for that! (Although I don't need anything full sized, I drove a 6.3 turbo diesel a couple of months ago and LOVED the throttle response--it was like my '73 Chevelle all over again. . .) Small trucks with diesels used to be easier to find than they are now. Personally, I'd like one of those 4 door turbo diesel Rangers built in Indonesia! Apparently, however, it's impossible to import them into Canada, and Ford seems unwilling to build them here. Instead, we get the Explorer SporTrac, with it's completely USELESS box and ONLY a gasoline engine. Too bad! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Politics and Biofuels
Hi Greg - you have to sift a bit sometimes, but overall this is still one of the best boards around on all the topics related to biofuels including technical, IMHO, and we are very involved in biofuels as a day-to-day thing. I've been following this board for a few years, and it is lively and mostly worthwhile - but some days, it is delete-delete-delete! Stick around a while before you decide. Edward Beggs On Thursday, February 27, 2003, at 07:58 AM, Greg Birky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am an engineer at a major manufacturer of heavy duty diesel engines. I went looking for, and found this discussion board because I have something of a professional as well as personal interest in biodiesel in particular. Perhaps I came upon this discussion board at an atypical time, but I have to say that I am a bit disappointed that so many of the recent posts have been more or less exclusively political in nature. Now I realize that biofuels is something of a political subject, but I also am a member of a number of other discussion boards, and by and large the discussions there even when in disagreement tend to stay a bit more respectful. I understand individuals' desire here to educate others on political topics related to biofuels, but nobody likes to be told they are stupid, or their comments are stupid - perhaps ignorant and uneducated, but not stupid. I don't like sifting through all of these messages online since Yahoo is slow and interjects advertisements. I also cannot afford to be e- mailed all of them due to my e-mail system limitations. In the end, it is just too burdensome to find relevant information on this board right now. I have to say that I am politically a conservative MOSTLY. I don't agree with all of the current administrations views. There was a great deal more I didn't agree with in the previous administration. However, I would never presume to believe that Mr. Clinton was stupid, or drank too much diet soda as some here would have us believe of President Bush. Perhaps that comment was tongue-in-cheek, I don't know as its hard to tell when just reading the text. Anyway, this post is already too long so I'll wrap it up. I'd like to see more relevant discussions of biofuels here. But I'm new, and if this is the way the majority wants the board to go - then who am I to think it should be different. I think that there is no need to offend others or be offended. You all do as you like, but I doubt I'll be around this board much. Greg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Valero finds advantage in gasoline blend
http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/19962/story.htm Valero finds advantage in gasoline blend USA: February 26, 2003 HOUSTON - Not following its competitors in the California gasoline market has made money for Valero Energy Corp. (VLO.N), a spokeswoman told Reuters this week, but analysts say the company isn't crowing about it. They really don't mention the advantage of sticking with CARB, said Fadel Gheit, senior energy analyst with Fahnestock Co. Inc. This particular attribute is not something they are highlighting. CARB is the shorthand name for a blend of gasoline mandated by the state that is mixed with Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (MTBE) an additive that reduces tailpipe emissions. There is an advantage to be selling CARB, said Valero spokeswoman Mary Rose Brown. Most refiners switched to making a different gasoline blend called CARBOB, which uses ethanol instead of MTBE, at the beginning of the year. Valero and fellow San Antonio-based refiner Tesoro Petroleum Corp. (TSO.N) did not, opting to wait until being required to switch to CARBOB at the beginning of 2004. Since the beginning of this year, the wholesale price for CARB has been running about 4 cents per gallon higher than CARBOB. Last week, the difference was even wider with CARB at times priced eight cents higher than CARBOB. Valero won't say how much money it is making from being one of two big refiners producing CARB, but price did play a role in the company changing its mind about making small amounts of CARBOB this year. We at one time said we were going to make some CARBOB this year, but we looked at it and the economics weren't there, Brown said. A Tesoro spokesperson was unavailable for comment. A CARBOB price spike was expected as shortages of the new gasoline were expected. Those shortages have not developed, but price jumps may occur as refiners begin making the summer formula of CARBOB, analysts have said. The switch to CARBOB is being mandated by the state to reduce pollution from automotive fuels. MTBE and ethanol both cut the amount of waste in the car exhausts, but MTBE has been found in California groundwater, raising fears of another source of pollution from the fuel. Last year, the state pushed back the date from switching to CARBOB from Jan. 1, 2003 to Jan. 1 2004. REUTERS NEWS SERVICE Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Canadian ethanol needs subsidy boost - industry
http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/19967/story.htm Canadian ethanol needs subsidy boost - industry CANADA: February 26, 2003 WINNIPEG, Manitoba - Canada's fledgling ethanol industry needs an injection of federal subsidies to fuel its growth and reach federal environmental targets, analysts and lobbyists said yesterday. Ethanol costs 20 to 30 Canadian cents (13 to 20 cents) per liter more than the gasoline it displaces, said Dave Tupper, an economist with Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada. We know that ethanol does not compete in economic terms: it requires public intervention wherever it is used in the world, Tupper told an audience at Grain World, a major agricultural market outlook conference. The Canadian government wants to see 35 percent of gasoline contain 10 percent ethanol by 2010 as part of its commitments to reduce greenhouse gas emissions under the Kyoto Protocol, Tupper said. That would represent a market for 1.4 million liters of ethanol - seven times what Canada currently produces - and extra costs of C$350 million for Canadians through tax exemptions, direct industry subsidies or increased fuel prices, Tupper said. Canada ratified the Kyoto accord on global warming in December. It requires Canada to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 6 percent below 1990 levels by 2012. Currently, the ethanol portion of fuel is exempt from a 10-cent per liter federal tax, as well as most provincial road taxes. Ethanol lobbyists are hopeful the federal government will provide C$400 million to ethanol producers, although a recent federal budget did not earmark cash for that purpose. I don't believe we will reach 1.3 billion liters in the current climate, said Bliss Baker, president of the Canadian Renewable Fuels Association. Energy sources around the world receive subsidies, he said. The U.S. Congress is considering regulations and incentives that would see the market for alternative fuels zoom to 5 billion U.S. gallons (20 billion liters) over the next decade from the current 2 billion gallons, said Brian Kelly, a Canadian consultant who has studied the industry. More than 100 Canadian towns are interested in attracting ethanol plants, Baker said, noting a 150 million liter plant provides C$140 million to its immediate economy per year. There are more than 20 business plans in the works representing more than 1 billion liters of production, he said. This is telling me we have a wave, or a pent-up supply of ethanol on the horizon, Tupper said. Four Canadian ethanol plants currently produce about 175 million liters of fuel ethanol, Tupper said. Canada imports more than 100 million liters from the United States each year. A fifth plant, producing about 26 million liters a year, went bankrupt in December. Tupper said a 150-million liter plant employs about 40 people. He said 400 to 500 people could eventually be employed by the Canadian ethanol industry, while Baker pegged the number at 1,000 to 2,000. But a prominent agricultural economist said more ethanol plants on the Canadian prairies could stall growth in the livestock industry, which holds more economic potential. Daryl Kraft of the University of Manitoba said ethanol plants would eat up feed grain supplies and require more imports of U.S. corn in some years, raising feed costs. If this industry is going to thrive here, it's going to require more subsidies than the U.S. (industry), Kraft said. Story by Roberta Rampton REUTERS NEWS SERVICE Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Bush Eyes Public Lands For Renewable Energy
http://ens-news.com/ens/feb2003/2003-02-24-10.asp ens Bush Eyes Public Lands For Renewable Energy By J.R. Pegg DENVER, Colorado, February 24, 2003 (ENS) - Even as the Bush administration proposes slashing funding for most renewable energy programs in next year's budget, administration officials are touting the untapped potential of renewable energy resources located on millions of acres of federal land. A new government report finds that public lands have abundant opportunities for renewable energy development, assistant secretary of the Interior for land and minerals management Rebecca Watson told reporters Friday. Rebecca Watson, assistant secretary of the Interior for Land and Minerals Management (Photo courtesy The Bush Administration) Increasing our domestic development of renewable energy sources will help to reduce our dependency on foreign sources of energy, Watson said. The report analyzes the potential of geothermal, solar, wind and biomass resources on the majority of the 230 million acres managed by the Department of Interior's Bureau of Land Management (BLM). The report found that 63 BLM planning units in 11 surveyed states have high potential for the development of one or more renewable energy sources. But some said the report is not what the renewable energy industry needs to promote growth. It is a helpful contribution, but it will do little to further renewable energy development, said Alan Nogee, director of the Clean Energy Program at the Union of Concerned Scientists, a nonprofit research group. Expanded markets and federal incentives are needed to spur the renewable energy industry, Nogee explained. He argues that if the administration is serious about renewable energy, it should look both overseas and to U.S. state governments for successful strategies. Solar energy offers a virtually unlimited source of clean, renewable power. Here, the world's largest solar power facility, located near Kramer Junction, California, stretches into the distance. (Photo courtesy National Renewable Energy Laboratory) Today, for example, the United Kingdom announced some $1.6 billion in government funding to enable it to generate fully 20 percent of its electricity from wind, wave and solar power by 2020. The policy uses tax incentives to promote renewable energy generation and requires electricity suppliers to meet a proportion of their needs from renewable energy sources. Within the United States, 13 states have renewable energy standards that require their utilities to purchase varying percentages of their power from renewable sources, and some 12 more are discussing them. Yet the Bush administration has opposed forcing utilities to buy energy from renewable sources. The latest budget plan from the White House cuts funding for most renewable energy programs and virtually eliminates $23 million in grants and loans to farmers, ranchers and small businesses for the development of renewable energy projects and energy efficiency programs. This is a useful baby step when giant leaps are what is really needed to ensure our energy security and increase our renewable energy supply, Nogee said. The report, jointly prepared by the BLM and the Energy Department's National Renewable Energy Laboratory, relied upon federal data and statistics for lands within 11 western U.S. states - including Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, New Mexico, Nevada, Oregon, Utah, Washington and Wyoming - taking into account weather, terrain and the existence of roads, potential workers and transmission lines. A total of 35 BLM units were listed as having high potential for the near term development of geothermal energy. Twenty BLM planning units in seven Western states have high potential from three or more renewable energy sources. Eighteen of these sites are in Arizona, California, New Mexico, Nevada and Utah. Wind energy is the fastest growing segment of the world's renewable energy sector. Some conservation groups say these giant turbines are better suited for private property than for public landscapes. (Photo courtesy National Renewable Energy Laboratory) It is these sites that the report detailed as a starting point for discussions regarding priorities for BLM land use planning activities. BLM can then determine the best order in which to prepare or amend land use plans to meet the Interior Secretary's commitment to using energy from renewable resources on public lands, according to the report. Watson said that public land managers would be looking to identify areas where there is high potential for both renewable and nonrenewable energy, as documented in a recently released Congressional report on the Energy Policy and Conservation Act. Land use planners can use these two reports to locate transmission corridors where they are most needed, she said. This helps reduce impacts to the environment and is more efficient. Watson suggested
[biofuel] A Hydrogen Economy Is a Bad Idea
When the energy industry gets involved, the only green left in the hydrogen economy will be the dollar sign. http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15239 A Hydrogen Economy Is a Bad Idea By David Morris, AlterNet February 24, 2003 When George Bush proposed a $1.7 billion program to promote hydrogen-fueled cars in the State of the Union Address, both sides of the aisle applauded. Almost everyone supports a hydrogen economy - conservatives and liberals, tree huggers and oil drillers. Such unanimity forecloses serious discussion. That's unfortunate. An aggressive pursuit of a hydrogen economy is wrongheaded and shortsighted. To understand why, we need to start with the basics. Hydrogen is the most abundant element on the planet. But it cannot be harvested directly. It must be extracted from another material. There is an upside to this and a downside. The upside is that a wide variety of materials contain hydrogen, which is one reason it has attracted such widespread support. Everyone has a dog in this fight. Renewable energy is a very little dog. Environmentalists envision an energy economy where hydrogen comes from water, and the energy used to accomplish this comes from wind. Big dogs like the nuclear industry also foresee a water-based hydrogen economy, but with nuclear as the power source that electrolyzes water. Nucleonics Week boasts that nuclear power is the only way to produce hydrogen on a large scale without contributing to greenhouse gas emissions. For the fossil fuel industry, not surprisingly, hydrocarbons will provide most of our future hydrogen. They already have a significant head start. Almost 50 percent of the world's commercial hydrogen now comes from natural gas. Another 20 percent is derived from coal. The automobile and oil companies are betting that petroleum will be the hydrogen source of the future. It was General Motors, after all, that coined the phrase the hydrogen economy. What does all this mean? A hydrogen economy will not be a renewable energy economy. For the next 20-50 years hydrogen will overwhelmingly be derived from fossil fuels or with nuclear energy. Consider that it has taken more than 30 years for the renewable energy industry to capture 1 percent of the transportation fuel market (ethanol) and 2 percent of the electricity market (wind, solar, biomass). Renewables are poised to rapidly expand their presence. A hydrogen economy would be a potentially debilitating diversion. As the President's 2004 budget demonstrates, any new money for hydrogen will be taken largely from budgets for energy efficiency and renewable energy. From a federal point of view, then, the more aggressively we pursue hydrogen, the less aggressively we pursue more beneficial technologies. To be successful, a hydrogen initiative will require the expenditure of hundreds of billions of dollars to build an entirely new energy infrastructure (pipelines, fueling stations, automobile engines). Much of this will come from public money. Little of this expenditure will directly benefit renewables. Indeed, it is likely that renewable energy will have about the same share of the hydrogen market in 2040 as it now has of the transportation and electricity markets. Far better to spend the billions the President wants to spend on hydrogen to increase renewable energy's share of the energy market from 1-2 percent to 25, 35, or even 50 percent in the same time frame. Not only will a hydrogen economy do little to expand renewable energy, it will increase pollution. Making hydrogen takes energy. We are using a fuel that could be used directly to provide electricity or mechnical power or heat to instead make hydrogen, which is then used to make electricity. Back in 1993 William Hoagland, senior project coordinator at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory's hydrogen program, prophetically told Time Magazine, I can't see why anyone would invest in additional equipment to make hydrogen rather than simply putting the electricity on the grid. We can, for example, run vehicles on natural gas or generate electricity using natural gas right now. Converting natural gas into hydrogen and then hydrogen into electricity increases the amount of greenhouse gases emitted. There is another energy-related problem with hydrogen. It is the lightest element, about eight times lighter than methane. Compacting it for storage or transport is expensive and energy intensive. A recent study by two Swiss engineers concludes, We have to accept that [hydrogen's] ... physical properties are incompatible with the requirements of the energy market. Production, packaging, storage, transfer and delivery of the gas ... are so energy consuming that alternatives should be considered. The most compelling rationale for making hydrogen is that it is a way to store energy. That could benefit renewable energy sources like wind and sunlight that can't generate energy on
[biofuel] Bolton Says War is Inevitable
Bolton Says War is Inevitable Despite an all-out lobbying effort -- which includes bribing potential alies with millions of taxpayer dollars in bribes -- U.S. officials claim the outcome of the Security Council vote on the second resolution will have no effect on the decision to attack Iraq. The ever-diplomatic Undersecretary of State John R. Bolton has told council members, You are not going to decide whether there is war in Iraq or not. That decision is ours, and we have already made it. It is already final. The only question now is whether the council will go along with it or not. And since their votes are simply irrelevant in the eyes of the White House, why not just get with the program? Especially since the United States would consider it an unfriendly act not to do so. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2003/02/25/MN6218.DTL NEWS ANALYSIS / In private, U.S. saying attack is inevitable NEWS ANALYSIS In private, U.S. saying attack is inevitable Karen DeYoung, Washington Post Tuesday, February 25, 2003 Washington -- As it launches an all-out lobbying campaign to gain U.N. approval, the Bush administration has begun to characterize the decision facing the Security Council not as whether there will be war against Iraq, but whether council members are willing to irrevocably destroy the world body's legitimacy by failing to follow the U.S. lead, senior U.S. and diplomatic sources said. In meetings Monday with senior officials in Moscow, Undersecretary of State John R. Bolton told the Russian government that we're going ahead, whether the council agrees or not, a senior administration official said. The council's unity is at stake here. A senior diplomat from another council member said his government had heard a similar message and was told not to anguish over whether to vote for war. You are not going to decide whether there is war in Iraq or not, the diplomat said U.S. officials told him. That decision is ours, and we have already made it. It is already final. The only question now is whether the council will go along with it or not. President Bush has continued to say publicly that he has not yet decided whether to go to war. But the message being conveyed in high-level contacts with other council governments is that a military attack on Iraq is inevitable, these officials and the diplomat said. What they must determine, U.S. officials are telling these governments, is if their insistence that U.N. weapons inspections be given more time is worth the destruction of council credibility at a time of serious world upheaval. 'AMERICA'S RESOLVE' We're going to try to convince people that their responsibilities as members of the Security Council necessitate a vote that will strengthen the role of the council in international politics, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice said Monday. Rice mentioned North Korea and Iran as issues on which the international community has a lot of hard work to do . . . And so we're going to try to convince people that the Security Council needs to be strong. Iraq, Rice said in a White House briefing, is an important issue, a critically important issue for the United States. . . . So nobody should underestimate . . . the importance of America's resolve in getting this done. The lobbying campaign went into full gear last weekend, as the administration prepared for Monday's introduction by the United States, Britain and Spain of a new council resolution declaring Baghdad in violation of U.N. demands. Although the resolution does not specifically authorize the use of military force, it is understood among all council members that approval is tantamount to agreement on a war. The administration maintains that such approval already exists in previous resolutions, but has bowed to the wishes of London and Madrid, its main council allies, who believe a new vote will quell massive anti-war feeling in their own countries. A number of other countries outside the council have said their support for war depends on a new resolution. While the council will hear an updated assessment of inspections in Iraq by chief U.N. inspector Hans Blix on March 7, senior administration officials said that his report is largely immaterial to the vote-getting process. Now that the new resolution has been introduced, council rules say we have the right to ask for a vote within 24 hours, an official said. Although it is likely to fall after Blix's report, the moment of choice will be based on the vote count and little else, the official said. TALLYING VOTES The administration holds out scant hope of repeating last fall's unanimous council tally, when all 15 members agreed to demand that Iraq submit to tough new weapons inspections. Three of the five permanent members with veto power -- France, Russia and China -- have called for a war decision to be postponed while inspections continue. Of the 10
[biofuel] Shock and Yawn
Posted on another list by a pro-war American: Normally only a major shock changes the course of history---the impact of a professionalized Roman Legion, the Revolutionary War, utter, unconditional, devastated wasteland defeat of WWII Japan and Germany. The shock of an unconditionally defeated Iraq, accompanied by minor physical damage and Iraqi fatalities is not of such magnitude. Not an ill-informed person, but how can he think that? Minor damage and fatalities - 800 cruise missiles in two days? Pentagon planner Harlan Ullman said: You have this simultaneous effect, rather like the nuclear weapons of Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks but minutes. Minor damage? Yet that's what the pro-war folks think - minor damage. Just another major disconnect in the pro-war thinking - they just can't seem to focus on what's going on. Such as the oil connection. Keith http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=14544 WorkingForChange- Geov Parrish workingforchange.com 02.24.03 Forget duct tape; we need protecting from the Bush White House, and from the record levels of new and deepening anti- American sentiment it is generating daily. Shock and Yawn Plan could kill millions in 48 hours -- why don't Americans care? Exactly a month ago Pentagon planner Harlan Ullman, in a CBS-TV interview, publicly revealed for the first time the Pentagon's Shock and Awe plan for its assault upon Iraq, should (or when) George W. Bush orders it. Ullman's information was subsequently confirmed by a number of sources; it's for real. Here is what I wrote about it in my column of January 30: http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=14425 The plan includes simultaneous ground invasions from north and south... It also includes a sudden decimation of Baghdad by raining down on its people, in two days, over 800 cruise missiles -- more than were used in the entire Gulf War. Ullman... characterized the Baghdad assault thusly: `You have this simultaneous effect, rather like the nuclear weapons of Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks but minutes.' It would be a firestorm, a Dresden or Tokyo with 60 years of new technology. It would be a war crime of quick and staggering proportions. Such a plan, of course, makes a mockery of Donald Rumsfeld's ritual insistence that the Pentagon takes enormous care to avoid civilian casualties; the plan apparently is to kill a staggering percentage of Baghdad's civilian population in the first day alone. ... The name refers to the demoralizing effect such an attack would have on Iraqis, an effect, presumably, similar to the instant (although already planned) surrender of Japan after the gratuitous bombing of Hiroshima (and even more gratuitous bombing of Nagasaki. But those were, both military and diplomatically, demonstration attacks -- suggesting what could be done to the imperial rulers themselves and to Tokyo, a city far more valuable and populous than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. In Iraq, Baghdad is the capitol. Now, those plans, and sentiments of horror similar to mine, have been echoing around the Internet for a month; they've been featured extensively in alternative publications that have come out during that time. Which is precisely the problem. The United States is planning to suck all the oxygen out of the air with a fireball over the heads of the five million residents of Baghdad -- so that, as another Pentagon interviewee said, nobody in Baghdad will be safe, whether above ground or below. This has been well-documented public knowledge for a month, widely reported in the rest of the world. But in America it has been roundly ignored, confined to the fringes of the media landscape and probably, by many Americans, dismissed as a result as conspiracist nonsense. This raises two questions: 1) Are Americans -- politicians, media executives, and ordinary citizens -- so numb, or oblivious, or callous to the horrors of war that we cannot raise ourselves to be bothered by what would be, if it works as planned, one of the greatest massacres, one of the greatest war crimes, in the history of the world, committed in our name and with our money? 2) Forgetting for a moment those apparently irrelevant concerns about millions of innocent lives, war crime tribunals, and the like, do America's war planners seriously think such an action would decrease the motivation or effectiveness of terrorists, who are presumably the target of the War on Terror and who will most certainly not be in Baghdad? (More, in fact, are likely to be huddled in any major American city. Perhaps we should preemptively bomb Philadelphia or Houston.) To take the last question first, whether it is ever implemented or not, even the publicizing of this plan does incalculable damage to the already-abysmal reputation of the United States in the Islamic world and beyond. Any country that would even seriously consider such a monstrous act certainly isn't
[biofuel] 121 U.S. cities and counties pass resolutions opposing the war
http://www.citiesforpeace.org/ Cities for Peace A national coalition of local officials and concerned citizens working to express the will of their communities through civic resolutions regarding the proposed war in Iraq. Cities for Peace News February 26, 2003 -- 121 U.S. cities and counties have now passed resolutions opposing the war, along with both houses of the Maine state legislature and the Hawaii House of Representatives. See the list! http://www.ips-dc.org/citiesforpeace/resolutions.htm Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Arizona source for methanol
Hello All, Say, does anyone know of a good source for methanol in Az at a good price for a good product ? Thanks, Bill in Az. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Solar powered air conditioning Stirling Motors
Anyone have a clue on what these cost? Nothing on thier web site! -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 6:12 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: Solar powered air conditioning Stirling Motors http://www.whispergen.com/ The revolutionary WhisperGen Personal Power Station is a micro combined heat/power generator based on an external combustion (Stirling) engine. It is the result of 8 years of design and development work by Whisper Tech Ltd.. Quiet clean burning and extremely efficient,. the WhisperGen is able to use a multitude of liquid or gaseous fuels and will change the way in which electricity is produced and distributed throughout the world. Mark Check out this link they have 5hp stirling motors, I personally don't know a thing about Stirling motors but all the hubub about stirling motors sparked my interest. I ran across this link from someones post in here. They are in Japan and I could not find a price anywhere on the web site. Hope this is of help to ya. http://www.stirling-tech.com/index.htm --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, I am just waiting to see any real stirling motors that can do any appreciable amount of work and are available for purchase. Little kits that power fans from hot cups of coffee are great for the Captain Kangaroo bunch. But are there any real motors on the order of 5 bhp that arer available for purchase? Sun Power in Athens, Oh ( http://sunpower.com/enthusiast/index.html) is supposed be to be some kind of Sterling mecca, but they are probably so tired of being inundated with basement tinkerers like myself, that they don't want to share much information. Also I believe their specialty now is the CryoCooler - a novel artifact of the sterling motor - it becomes a refrigirator if you run power in to it. Reverse the power input and the same end turns very hot. So the stirling motor can function as a heat pump. Todd have you ever chatted with those folks there at SunPower? There is a group on Yahoo called SESUSA ( http://www.sesusa.org) . Good info there but I have not seen any real workable engines that would be considered a powerplant that is available to a regular joe. Still pretty exotic yet. Yours, Mark Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/M=246920.2960106.4328965.2848452/D=egroupweb/S=1705083269:HM/A=1464858/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/cpm/grp/300_Cquo_1/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=246920.2960106.4328965.2848452/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1464858/rand=553955880 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- New Yahoo! Mail Plus. More flexibility. More control. More power. Get POP access, more storage, more filters, and more. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Hcb0iA/P.iFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Solar powered air conditioning Stirling Motors
Keith, We started with solar powered air conditioning (cooling) by using thermal solar panels and a cooling unit with a modified Electrolux - Munters technology. Free energy at low cost and high capacity potentials. I have looked for a long time for somebody that would pick up on this technology that is used on larger refrigeration ships, but needed adaption for smaller applications. I am still quite enthusiastic about it, http://members.aon.at/solarfrost/main.html Then somebody said something about Stirling for that type of application and I contested that we had a cost effective Stirling technology for it. So what happens? We are now so fixated with what we can do with Stirling, that the original thread is totally lost. I think that the WhisperGen Personal Power Station is very interesting and like to know more about it. It does not have anything to do with what we discussed, but very interesting. I will follow it up, but the electricity output is only 750W as a by product of heating. To be useful, it probably need to be combined with storage/batteries and could be very good as a component in a PV cell system. As a heating system it is also interesting due to the high efficiency, but 5 kW is very low capacity for this purpose. Pulsonex pulsating system has around the same efficiency but 25 kW. The advantage of both have the biodiesel capability. Then we have links to a heat recuperator, again not relevant to what we discussed, but interesting. Like to see more data and performance numbers. Also want to compare it to other systems. I am still left with unchanged enthusiasm for the modified Electrolux - Munters technology and the air conditioning (cooling) application, but are grateful for the other ideas. Will discuss them in separate threads, after looking closer. Hakan At 09:12 PM 2/28/2003 +0900, you wrote: http://www.whispergen.com/ The revolutionary WhisperGen Personal Power Station is a micro combined heat/power generator based on an external combustion (Stirling) engine. It is the result of 8 years of design and development work by Whisper Tech Ltd.. Quiet clean burning and extremely efficient,. the WhisperGen is able to use a multitude of liquid or gaseous fuels and will change the way in which electricity is produced and distributed throughout the world. Mark Check out this link they have 5hp stirling motors, I personally don't know a thing about Stirling motors but all the hubub about stirling motors sparked my interest. I ran across this link from someones post in here. They are in Japan and I could not find a price anywhere on the web site. Hope this is of help to ya. http://www.stirling-tech.com/index.htm --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, I am just waiting to see any real stirling motors that can do any appreciable amount of work and are available for purchase. Little kits that power fans from hot cups of coffee are great for the Captain Kangaroo bunch. But are there any real motors on the order of 5 bhp that arer available for purchase? Sun Power in Athens, Oh ( http://sunpower.com/enthusiast/index.html) is supposed be to be some kind of Sterling mecca, but they are probably so tired of being inundated with basement tinkerers like myself, that they don't want to share much information. Also I believe their specialty now is the CryoCooler - a novel artifact of the sterling motor - it becomes a refrigirator if you run power in to it. Reverse the power input and the same end turns very hot. So the stirling motor can function as a heat pump. Todd have you ever chatted with those folks there at SunPower? There is a group on Yahoo called SESUSA (http://www.sesusa.org) . Good info there but I have not seen any real workable engines that would be considered a powerplant that is available to a regular joe. Still pretty exotic yet. Yours, Mark Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Deleting - Re: [biofuel] Politics and Biofuels
Ed wrote: mostly worthwhile - but some days, it is delete-delete-delete! Stick around a while before you decide. Greg wrote: to others. I scan the subject line, and some of the info., and if it is no use, or I don't want to be apart of it, I deleat it, and most of the other items with that subject. If on the other hand, It is of intrest, I save it for future referance, and I make a point to check all others with that same subject, saveing the useful info, deleating things like the Thank you and Your welcome post. Not picking on you, lots of people talk of deleting posts - but why? I know a few people still use low-capacity hard-disks, but for most disk capacity isn't a problem, with 10, 20, 40, 80 and more gigabyte disks standard now for some while, and fast machines that handle large amounts of data in no time. I regularly ask people please to crop irrelevant stuff (and multiple footers!) from their posts, but that's to save bandwidth, not disk space, and out of consideration for members with slow and/or expensive connections (often the case in 3rd World countries) and perhaps old gear. IMO it makes more sense to keep all posts. Deleting them is judging in advance what you may find useful later, and as an info-professional of long standing I can tell you that's not a judgment you can make with any assurance. A major advantage of subject-specific mailing lists like this one is that you quickly build up a considerable onboard information resource - your own database on biofuels. This list's database is a fabulous resource, I use it all the time, so do many others. (And it sure adds a little much-needed perspective to those few who complain that all we do here is discuss off-topic political crap, LOL!) You don't build up much in the way of resources if you keep deleting stuff. With a computer it doesn't really matter what's there, it doesn't take perceptibly longer to search 20Mb than 10Mb, and the more that's in there the more depth and breadth it has, and the better your search results will be. Your email program should be able to do a full-text search of a mailbox. That is, you create a mailbox for the Biofuel list, call it Biofuel, and set a filter to send all incoming messages with the header To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com to that mailbox. If your emailer can't do that, and do a proper search, get one that can. After a month the mailbox gets a bit full, so make a new one for the next month and put last month's one in a folder on your hard disk, which you can search with a full-text search program. This mkakes the best use of the information you're receiving, and it will also improve your experience of mailing lists, and of Internet communications generally. And it's a lot easier than hitting the Delete button all the time. By the way, your emailer also should be able to sort messages by date (usually the default), by name of sender, and by subject, which makes everything much easier. If you don't have a capable emailer you're getting a keyhole view of what mailing lists are all about. Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Shock and Yawn
It is at this point I feel compelled to write for the first time to this mailing group. I originally signed up out of professional interest as my company are in the middle of producing a publication regarding biofuels, and I wanted to increase my knowledge on the subject. Of late, I have not learned anything due to the political debate. I am now so angered by what I have read in the email below (that there will be minor physcial damage to Iraq) that I felt a genuine need to express my feelings. In every war that has ever been of magnitude, there is always wide spread destruction and suffering, and mostly to the innocent, not those who should prehaps be taken to task. A full scale attack on Iraq will not rid the world of Saddam - you can be gauranteed that he will be in the safest possible place. It will be the average Iraqi citizen who will be maimed by war, thus perpetuating the general hatred and distrust of the west thoughout the middle east. As a british citizen, I am amazed that our respective governments have got even this far in their quest for blood shed. A hail of bombs is not going to solve the problems in the middle east - and there will always be another Saddam or Bin Laden. -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 February 2003 13:38 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Shock and Yawn Posted on another list by a pro-war American: Normally only a major shock changes the course of history---the impact of a professionalized Roman Legion, the Revolutionary War, utter, unconditional, devastated wasteland defeat of WWII Japan and Germany. The shock of an unconditionally defeated Iraq, accompanied by minor physical damage and Iraqi fatalities is not of such magnitude. Not an ill-informed person, but how can he think that? Minor damage and fatalities - 800 cruise missiles in two days? Pentagon planner Harlan Ullman said: You have this simultaneous effect, rather like the nuclear weapons of Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks but minutes. Minor damage? Yet that's what the pro-war folks think - minor damage. Just another major disconnect in the pro-war thinking - they just can't seem to focus on what's going on. Such as the oil connection. Keith http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=14544 WorkingForChange- Geov Parrish workingforchange.com 02.24.03 Forget duct tape; we need protecting from the Bush White House, and from the record levels of new and deepening anti- American sentiment it is generating daily. Shock and Yawn Plan could kill millions in 48 hours -- why don't Americans care? Exactly a month ago Pentagon planner Harlan Ullman, in a CBS-TV interview, publicly revealed for the first time the Pentagon's Shock and Awe plan for its assault upon Iraq, should (or when) George W. Bush orders it. Ullman's information was subsequently confirmed by a number of sources; it's for real. Here is what I wrote about it in my column of January 30: http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=14425 The plan includes simultaneous ground invasions from north and south... It also includes a sudden decimation of Baghdad by raining down on its people, in two days, over 800 cruise missiles -- more than were used in the entire Gulf War. Ullman... characterized the Baghdad assault thusly: `You have this simultaneous effect, rather like the nuclear weapons of Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks but minutes.' It would be a firestorm, a Dresden or Tokyo with 60 years of new technology. It would be a war crime of quick and staggering proportions. Such a plan, of course, makes a mockery of Donald Rumsfeld's ritual insistence that the Pentagon takes enormous care to avoid civilian casualties; the plan apparently is to kill a staggering percentage of Baghdad's civilian population in the first day alone. ... The name refers to the demoralizing effect such an attack would have on Iraqis, an effect, presumably, similar to the instant (although already planned) surrender of Japan after the gratuitous bombing of Hiroshima (and even more gratuitous bombing of Nagasaki. But those were, both military and diplomatically, demonstration attacks -- suggesting what could be done to the imperial rulers themselves and to Tokyo, a city far more valuable and populous than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. In Iraq, Baghdad is the capitol. Now, those plans, and sentiments of horror similar to mine, have been echoing around the Internet for a month; they've been featured extensively in alternative publications that have come out during that time. Which is precisely the problem. The United States is planning to suck all the oxygen out of the air with a fireball over the heads of the five million residents of Baghdad -- so that, as another Pentagon interviewee said, nobody in Baghdad will be safe, whether above ground or below. This has been well-documented public knowledge for a month, widely reported in
[biofuel] Forest for the Trees: What We Should Really Be Demanding
http://eatthestate.org/ Eat The State! Vol. 7, Issue #1326 Feb. 03 SPECIAL ANTI-WAR ISSUE! Forest for the Trees: What We Should Really Be Demanding A European plan to avert war in Iraq, as initially conceived, would have looked something like the following: The nearly 150,000 US troops deployed in the Persian Gulf would stay in place to force Iraq to cooperate and be ready to invade if Baghdad breaches the tougher inspection system. Iraqi President Saddam Hussein would be forced to admit thousands of armed UN troops to oversee intensified weapons inspections throughout Iraq, creating a de facto UN protectorate. The number of weapons inspectors working in Iraq would be tripled to about 300, and a permanent UN coordinator of arms inspections would be appointed. The no-fly zones over northern and southern Iraq would be extended to cover the entire country. French, German and US reconnaissance planes would be allowed to patrol the skies. Sanctions would be made more focused to clamp down on oil smuggling by Iraq's neighbors and tighten export controls. A special UN court would be established to oversee infringements of the new inspection system and human rights abuses. The latest (as of February 16th) word from Jacques Chirac is that, We have to give the inspectors time. And probably--and this is France's view--we have to reinforce their capacities, especially those of aerial surveillance, and, [Chirac] added that the huge United States military deployment in the Persian Gulf region--now nearing 150,000 troops--had created the possibility of peaceful Iraqi disarmament. In other words, the Europeans, are essentially pushing for a return to the old League of Nations mandate system for Iraq, with the US hammer ready to pound down should Iraq get out of line. Russian President, Vladimir Putin, in response to the incipient proposal, stressed the need to solve the problem and the crisis diplomatically. Is the nature of the crisis that the United States is planning to commit the war crime of unprovoked aggression upon another country, a war in which the United States is planning to use nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, land mines, depleted and/or non-depleted uranium weapons, and (presumably) cluster bombs? Is the nature of the crisis that the United States is planning to again obliterate Iraqi civilian infrastructure (and even declined an invitation to participate in a recent conference in Geneva concerning the humanitarian consequences of war), in the full knowledge that in so doing it is expected to create a humanitarian emergency of exceptional scale and magnitude, which could in the short-term generate 500,000 casualties, three million refugees, and three million hungry? Keep dreaming! Given that the United States has been steadily bombing Iraq since 1998, and that Special Operations units are already operating in Iraq, are any European leaders proposing Security Council resolutions ordering the United States to get its ass on home, and promising serious consequences should it fail to comply? Keep dreaming! Similarly, prominent actors, writers, and public figures have drafted a statement opposing war on Iraq, while assuring the President that, We are patriotic Americans who share the belief that Saddam Hussein cannot be allowed to possess weapons of mass destruction. We support rigorous UN weapons inspections to assure Iraq's effective disarmament. They're against the war, they say, because it would harm American interests. The World Wide Punks want to win without war, too. A slightly nuanced version of the appeal, Keep America Safe: Win Without War, promulgated by a broad coalition of leaders of religious and civic organizations, seeks to stop Iraqi militarism, and supports rigorous UN weapons inspections to assure Iraq's effective disarmament. Many others, including well-known liberal smarty-pants Todd Gitlin, various members of Congress, and repentant former CIA analyst Bill Christison argue that containment is working. That is, that in dealing with the Saddam menace, we need simply continue the present genocidal sanctions policy and almost daily bombing in the no-fly zones--and then the rest writes itself. Gitlin, in a February 11th letter to the New York Times, opined that, The alternative to full-blown war remains a combination of tough inspections (aided by limited force, if need be), no-fly zones, and intelligent sanctions--that is, containment. Was he proposing that these measures are needed to disarm the United States, in order to keep it from threatening its neighbors? Keep dreaming! Granting that the job of the moment is clearly to prevent a US-led war, if we accept the Bush Administration's framing of the agenda, we've done a grave disservice to the Iraqi people and the World, and are tacitly endorsing the Administration's thoroughly contorted picture, in which up is down and black is white. If possession of weapons of mass destruction and aiding and
[biofuel] Re: Deleting - Not! :-)
Keith: Thank you so much for this - I think it is something all should note - I know I certainly have always been in awe of your ability to search, pull up, copy and paste all those snippets from old (sometimes incriminating! ;-)) posts!!) So this is how it is done...sure, makes great sense! I think it is a carryover from earlier days of email and low-capacity computers. Everyone should pay close attention to Keith's insight on this one and do as he suggests - it will most certainly pay off later. Cheers, Edward Beggs http://www.biofuels.ca On Friday, February 28, 2003, at 06:23 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Ed wrote: mostly worthwhile - but some days, it is delete-delete-delete! Stick around a while before you decide. Greg wrote: to others. I scan the subject line, and some of the info., and if it is no use, or I don't want to be apart of it, I deleat it, and most of the other items with that subject. If on the other hand, It is of intrest, I save it for future referance, and I make a point to check all others with that same subject, saveing the useful info, deleating things like the Thank you and Your welcome post. Not picking on you, lots of people talk of deleting posts - but why? I know a few people still use low-capacity hard-disks, but for most disk capacity isn't a problem, with 10, 20, 40, 80 and more gigabyte disks standard now for some while, and fast machines that handle large amounts of data in no time. I regularly ask people please to crop irrelevant stuff (and multiple footers!) from their posts, but that's to save bandwidth, not disk space, and out of consideration for members with slow and/or expensive connections (often the case in 3rd World countries) and perhaps old gear. IMO it makes more sense to keep all posts. Deleting them is judging in advance what you may find useful later, and as an info-professional of long standing I can tell you that's not a judgment you can make with any assurance. A major advantage of subject-specific mailing lists like this one is that you quickly build up a considerable onboard information resource - your own database on biofuels. This list's database is a fabulous resource, I use it all the time, so do many others. (And it sure adds a little much-needed perspective to those few who complain that all we do here is discuss off-topic political crap, LOL!) You don't build up much in the way of resources if you keep deleting stuff. With a computer it doesn't really matter what's there, it doesn't take perceptibly longer to search 20Mb than 10Mb, and the more that's in there the more depth and breadth it has, and the better your search results will be. Your email program should be able to do a full-text search of a mailbox. That is, you create a mailbox for the Biofuel list, call it Biofuel, and set a filter to send all incoming messages with the header To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com to that mailbox. If your emailer can't do that, and do a proper search, get one that can. After a month the mailbox gets a bit full, so make a new one for the next month and put last month's one in a folder on your hard disk, which you can search with a full-text search program. This mkakes the best use of the information you're receiving, and it will also improve your experience of mailing lists, and of Internet communications generally. And it's a lot easier than hitting the Delete button all the time. By the way, your emailer also should be able to sort messages by date (usually the default), by name of sender, and by subject, which makes everything much easier. If you don't have a capable emailer you're getting a keyhole view of what mailing lists are all about. Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- New Yahoo! Mail Plus. More flexibility. More control. More power. Get POP access, more storage, more filters, and more. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Hcb0iA/P.iFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Solar powered air conditioning Stirling Motors
Hi Doug Anyone have a clue on what these cost? Nothing on thier web site! Kirk checked it out a while back, and said this: I went to the stirling site, an NZ company. Their engine is being sold as a sailboat electrical generator for big bucks (Holland) but the co. doesn't deal with individuals. :-( This was posted to the GAS (Gasification) list: If you go to www.victronenergie.com you will find a 103 page pdf article Electricity on Board explaining how the WhisperGen Stirling gen-set offers a neat solution to providing power on board a yacht. Some of this is very relevant to off grid power applications - well worth a read. With Striling technoplogy - there is no need to cool or scrub the wood gas, and so efficiency is maintained at a higher percentage level. Remember -- a Stirling is not a fussy eater - unlike some IC engines ;-) I hope that link still works. Also this below. Best Keith Japanese Companies Enter Market for Home Cogeneration TOKYO, Japan, JP, 2001-12-13 [SolarAccess.com] The popularity of co-generation systems is increasing in Japan, with different types of home based Micro Combined Heat Power (MCHP) systems being sold or expected on the market soon. There is strong demand for saving energy, and we believe there is high potential for cogeneration to spread into households, says Yoshitaka Kayahara of residential cogen development with Osaka Gas. Considering the need to reduce the amount of carbon dioxide emissions to prevent the greenhouse effect from escalating, there is a necessity to introduce cogeneration. In October, the company began testing the market for home-use cogeneration systems by adopting Honda Motor's 1 kW gas engine. The system can provide most of the heat, as well as 40 percent of total electricity needed by an average household. The system can save 30,000 to 40,000 yen a year in lighting and heating costs. After testing the new system at 100 homes, the company will sell the compact generator for 700,000 yen. IBF of Tokyo, has introduced a residential cogeneration system that uses a Stirling engine, operating on external combustion which runs pistons powered by contained, heated gas. The Stirling engine is manufactured by Whisper Tech of New Zealand, and provides an advantage over internal-combustion engines because it can use any type of fuel to heat the gas in the cylinder, even sunlight. Because it can use anything as the fuel to run the system, we think Stirling engine cogeneration has huge potential, say officials. The system, which can generate 0.75 kW, went on sale this year for 3.5 million yen and IBF has sold 14 units to homes and dormitories in ten months. The WhisperGen system has been sized to meet the heating requirements of a typical home in western Europe, and to match the electrical generation with the home's requirements, to keep power available for export to the grid to a minimum level. If the utility refuses to accept the distributed generation for any reason, or will not pay an acceptable price, the unit can be used in the home for heating water via an immersion heater. Currently, the AC WhisperGen is designed to continually monitor for the presence of the grid. If the grid drops out of certain ranges in voltage or frequency, the system automatically shuts down to ensure that it does not export into a failed grid. Most Japanese companies developing home-use cogen systems are focusing on natural gas fuel cells. Home appliance makers, including Matsushita, Toshiba, Sanyo and Toyota, are developing fuel-cell cogen systems for residential applications, and many expect to have 1 kW systems by 2004 or 2005. Osaka Gas is developing a fuel-cell cogen system, and Kayahara says gas cogen systems provide more heat than electricity, while fuel-cell cogen systems provide the opposite; more electricity than heat. We believe that there will be demands for both gas and fuel-cell engines, because the use of energy will vary depending on customers' lifestyles, as well as where they live, he says. Osaka Gas aims to release its residential fuel-cell cogen system in 2005, at a price of 600,000 yen. The companies are trying to reduce initial costs of systems but they share a belief that, once residential cogeneration systems become accepted, mass production will allow costs to drop. (Nov reports) -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 6:12 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: Solar powered air conditioning Stirling Motors http://www.whispergen.com/ The revolutionary WhisperGen Personal Power Station is a micro combined heat/power generator based on an external combustion (Stirling) engine. It is the result of 8 years of design and development work by Whisper Tech Ltd.. Quiet clean burning and extremely efficient,. the WhisperGen is able to use a multitude of liquid or gaseous fuels and will change the way in which electricity is produced and
[biofuel] Re: Solar powered air conditioning Stirling Motors
Hi Hakan Keith, We started with solar powered air conditioning (cooling) by using thermal solar panels and a cooling unit with a modified Electrolux - Munters technology. Free energy at low cost and high capacity potentials. I have looked for a long time for somebody that would pick up on this technology that is used on larger refrigeration ships, but needed adaption for smaller applications. I am still quite enthusiastic about it, http://members.aon.at/solarfrost/main.html Then somebody said something about Stirling for that type of application and I contested that we had a cost effective Stirling technology for it. So what happens? We are now so fixated with what we can do with Stirling, that the original thread is totally lost. So it goes, eh? Sorry about that - but I'm sure you can steer it back again. Or onwards rather, ever onwards. :-) Anyway, it seems we now have a couple of working Stirlings, of whatever capacity, rather than just the demo-thingies schoolkids can make out of tin cans. So at least they're real enough, ready-to-use, not just pie-in-the-sky. A detour, to be sure, but not a cul-de-sac. I think that the WhisperGen Personal Power Station is very interesting and like to know more about it. It does not have anything to do with what we discussed, but very interesting. I will follow it up, but the electricity output is only 750W as a by product of heating. To be useful, it probably need to be combined with storage/batteries and could be very good as a component in a PV cell system. As a heating system it is also interesting due to the high efficiency, but 5 kW is very low capacity for this purpose. Pulsonex pulsating system has around the same efficiency but 25 kW. The advantage of both have the biodiesel capability. I guess there's a niche for each? Then we have links to a heat recuperator, again not relevant to what we discussed, but interesting. Like to see more data and performance numbers. Also want to compare it to other systems. I am still left with unchanged enthusiasm for the modified Electrolux - Munters technology and the air conditioning (cooling) application, but are grateful for the other ideas. Will discuss them in separate threads, after looking closer. Over to you, Hakan. Best wishes Keith Hakan At 09:12 PM 2/28/2003 +0900, you wrote: http://www.whispergen.com/ The revolutionary WhisperGen Personal Power Station is a micro combined heat/power generator based on an external combustion (Stirling) engine. It is the result of 8 years of design and development work by Whisper Tech Ltd.. Quiet clean burning and extremely efficient,. the WhisperGen is able to use a multitude of liquid or gaseous fuels and will change the way in which electricity is produced and distributed throughout the world. Mark Check out this link they have 5hp stirling motors, I personally don't know a thing about Stirling motors but all the hubub about stirling motors sparked my interest. I ran across this link from someones post in here. They are in Japan and I could not find a price anywhere on the web site. Hope this is of help to ya. http://www.stirling-tech.com/index.htm --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Mark Foltarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, I am just waiting to see any real stirling motors that can do any appreciable amount of work and are available for purchase. Little kits that power fans from hot cups of coffee are great for the Captain Kangaroo bunch. But are there any real motors on the order of 5 bhp that arer available for purchase? Sun Power in Athens, Oh ( http://sunpower.com/enthusiast/index.html) is supposed be to be some kind of Sterling mecca, but they are probably so tired of being inundated with basement tinkerers like myself, that they don't want to share much information. Also I believe their specialty now is the CryoCooler - a novel artifact of the sterling motor - it becomes a refrigirator if you run power in to it. Reverse the power input and the same end turns very hot. So the stirling motor can function as a heat pump. Todd have you ever chatted with those folks there at SunPower? There is a group on Yahoo called SESUSA (http://www.sesusa.org) . Good info there but I have not seen any real workable engines that would be considered a powerplant that is available to a regular joe. Still pretty exotic yet. Yours, Mark Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- New Yahoo! Mail Plus. More flexibility. More control. More power. Get POP access, more storage, more filters, and more. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Hcb0iA/P.iFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send
Re: [biofuel] Politics and Biofuels
Dear Greg Birky, The only time I know of somebody called something stupid it was me and about Dom Amato's discriminating view of immigrants. I was upset and as I said, I do not normally use this word. I stand for my opinion and if you want hear that word again, just express a similar view that contains racism or other discrimination and I will repeat it. Judging your balanced posting, I think it will be hard for you to do. Education and ignorance have nothing to do with discrimination, on the contrary, it is often something that you hear from people that regard themselves as educated and superior. I think that you are right, you came in at an atypical time, a very unique situation in the normal discussions on the board. Hakan At 03:58 PM 2/27/2003 +, you wrote: I am an engineer at a major manufacturer of heavy duty diesel engines. I went looking for, and found this discussion board because I have something of a professional as well as personal interest in biodiesel in particular. Perhaps I came upon this discussion board at an atypical time, but I have to say that I am a bit disappointed that so many of the recent posts have been more or less exclusively political in nature. Now I realize that biofuels is something of a political subject, but I also am a member of a number of other discussion boards, and by and large the discussions there even when in disagreement tend to stay a bit more respectful. I understand individuals' desire here to educate others on political topics related to biofuels, but nobody likes to be told they are stupid, or their comments are stupid - perhaps ignorant and uneducated, but not stupid. I don't like sifting through all of these messages online since Yahoo is slow and interjects advertisements. I also cannot afford to be e- mailed all of them due to my e-mail system limitations. In the end, it is just too burdensome to find relevant information on this board right now. I have to say that I am politically a conservative MOSTLY. I don't agree with all of the current administrations views. There was a great deal more I didn't agree with in the previous administration. However, I would never presume to believe that Mr. Clinton was stupid, or drank too much diet soda as some here would have us believe of President Bush. Perhaps that comment was tongue-in-cheek, I don't know as its hard to tell when just reading the text. Anyway, this post is already too long so I'll wrap it up. I'd like to see more relevant discussions of biofuels here. But I'm new, and if this is the way the majority wants the board to go - then who am I to think it should be different. I think that there is no need to offend others or be offended. You all do as you like, but I doubt I'll be around this board much. Greg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- New Yahoo! Mail Plus. More flexibility. More control. More power. Get POP access, more storage, more filters, and more. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Hcb0iA/P.iFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Shock and Yawn
Thank you for this, Liz, and welcome. I daresay, though, there have been some relevant posts on biofuels topics, as well as politics, almost every day though...maybe only a few, but you never know when an absolute gem of a biofuels thought will appear, and we must all be diligent in watching and waiting. A bit like fly fishing while swatting mosquitoes some days...you wonder why you are there, and then ;-) Edward Beggs http://www.biofuels.ca On Friday, February 28, 2003, at 06:24 AM, Burnett, Liz wrote: It is at this point I feel compelled to write for the first time to this mailing group. I originally signed up out of professional interest as my company are in the middle of producing a publication regarding biofuels, and I wanted to increase my knowledge on the subject. Of late, I have not learned anything due to the political debate. I am now so angered by what I have read in the email below (that there will be minor physcial damage to Iraq) that I felt a genuine need to express my feelings. In every war that has ever been of magnitude, there is always wide spread destruction and suffering, and mostly to the innocent, not those who should prehaps be taken to task. A full scale attack on Iraq will not rid the world of Saddam - you can be gauranteed that he will be in the safest possible place. It will be the average Iraqi citizen who will be maimed by war, thus perpetuating the general hatred and distrust of the west thoughout the middle east. As a british citizen, I am amazed that our respective governments have got even this far in their quest for blood shed. A hail of bombs is not going to solve the problems in the middle east - and there will always be another Saddam or Bin Laden. -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 February 2003 13:38 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Shock and Yawn Posted on another list by a pro-war American: Normally only a major shock changes the course of history---the impact of a professionalized Roman Legion, the Revolutionary War, utter, unconditional, devastated wasteland defeat of WWII Japan and Germany. The shock of an unconditionally defeated Iraq, accompanied by minor physical damage and Iraqi fatalities is not of such magnitude. Not an ill-informed person, but how can he think that? Minor damage and fatalities - 800 cruise missiles in two days? Pentagon planner Harlan Ullman said: You have this simultaneous effect, rather like the nuclear weapons of Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks but minutes. Minor damage? Yet that's what the pro-war folks think - minor damage. Just another major disconnect in the pro-war thinking - they just can't seem to focus on what's going on. Such as the oil connection. Keith http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=14544 WorkingForChange- Geov Parrish workingforchange.com 02.24.03 Forget duct tape; we need protecting from the Bush White House, and from the record levels of new and deepening anti- American sentiment it is generating daily. Shock and Yawn Plan could kill millions in 48 hours -- why don't Americans care? Exactly a month ago Pentagon planner Harlan Ullman, in a CBS-TV interview, publicly revealed for the first time the Pentagon's Shock and Awe plan for its assault upon Iraq, should (or when) George W. Bush orders it. Ullman's information was subsequently confirmed by a number of sources; it's for real. Here is what I wrote about it in my column of January 30: http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=14425 The plan includes simultaneous ground invasions from north and south... It also includes a sudden decimation of Baghdad by raining down on its people, in two days, over 800 cruise missiles -- more than were used in the entire Gulf War. Ullman... characterized the Baghdad assault thusly: `You have this simultaneous effect, rather like the nuclear weapons of Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks but minutes.' It would be a firestorm, a Dresden or Tokyo with 60 years of new technology. It would be a war crime of quick and staggering proportions. Such a plan, of course, makes a mockery of Donald Rumsfeld's ritual insistence that the Pentagon takes enormous care to avoid civilian casualties; the plan apparently is to kill a staggering percentage of Baghdad's civilian population in the first day alone. ... The name refers to the demoralizing effect such an attack would have on Iraqis, an effect, presumably, similar to the instant (although already planned) surrender of Japan after the gratuitous bombing of Hiroshima (and even more gratuitous bombing of Nagasaki. But those were, both military and diplomatically, demonstration attacks -- suggesting what could be done to the imperial rulers themselves and to Tokyo, a city far more valuable and populous than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. In Iraq,
RE: Deleting - Re: [biofuel] Politics and Biofuels
I share my database, Keith :) --- Martin Klingensmith nnytech.net infoarchive.net -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 9:23 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Deleting - Re: [biofuel] Politics and Biofuels A major advantage of subject-specific mailing lists like this one is that you quickly build up a considerable onboard information resource - your own database on biofuels. Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Tony Blair White Paper on Global Warming and Renewable Energy
Thanks for the response from Great Britain. I'm going to forward it to some other groups, as you report a great deal to us about a few issues in renewables in Great Britain. The news report I read concerning impounding of biofuel-using vehicles discussed drivers who were using waste products from restauraunts, however I'll take it that the events also included or were predominated by use of oil from supermarket shelves. That the motives were financial was clear, and if it seemed that I was implying otherwise, then I have mis-spoken. What bothered me was that, regardless of the motives, a seemingly logical step would be not to quash an action but to find a way to address the problems. As I attempted to say before, it use of such fuels involved avoiding road taxes, why not find a way to tax use of such fuels, rather than simply preventing the evident move toward use of such fuels. Impoundment of vehicles in response to a movement to use more renewable fuels is not the way to go. The report of manufacturer claimed concern for biofuel-using vehicles is something we see a lot of in our biofuel-industry-watching. It seems to me that this concern is often stated by manufacturers where they see biofuel use springing up, but all they seem to want to advise is to protect the fuel-vehicle status quo. I haven't seen any vehicle manufacturer make any effort, where they claim there is a concern for the vehicle, to satisfy themselves of modifications that can be made, in their view, to use the fuels. The way to go, in my view, would be to address thier concerns in a manner that makes it possible for car owners to explore using the fuel, such as by making simple vehicle adjustments widely available if or where they are necessary at all, rather than just quashing the movement outright. Many people around the world use 100% biofuels, and biofuel-petrol mixtures, every day without damaging their designed-for-petrol vehicles one bit. On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:01:38 -, you wrote: The alternative fuel you are speaking of was cooking oil, straight off the supermarket shelves. This happened after the end of the fuel crisis created by some of the drivers of heavy haulage trucks and farmers blockading supplies. The price of fuel was very high and people wanted to avoid the high cost. The governement did not change the taxation on fuel, it was the price of crude that made the difference. The Automobile Association and Royal Automobile Club would not condone the use of cooking oil. If it was not mixed with sufficient quantities of diesel, it would corrode the fuel pump and other engine components, plus it was evading the tax on fuel for vehicles, a criminal offense (except for agricutlural use). Some vehicles were impounded. The issue and the reason for people buying cooking oil was not around the fact that it was a boifuel. There was no coverage of that as the issue - it was not the reason why people did it. It was purely money. --- The government approach for alternative fuels and home energy production is not covered much by this white paper as it is not a new issue, much of the subsidies are already in place, so they aren't something to be pushed for in a white paper. There are 50% grants for solar panels and wind generation projects at the home. This was something that was called for in a previous white paper and were introduced this year. For vehicles, there are around 40% grants for CNG, electric and LPG conversions or new vehicles. Hybrids are granted £1000 ($1400) for new vehicles. There's also grant for commercial vehicles. Goverment organisations and grants linked to Transport Action: http://www.powershift.org.uk and http://www.cleanup.org.uk A large project in Scotland is to make 50,000,000 litres of waste cooking oil into blended bio-diesel, per year, is due to be built this year. It's not the only one. The companies involved do not see the need for government subsidy. Bio-diesel is starting to be made available on large numbers of petrol station forecourts in the south- east of England and it's spreading north. --- The concentration on renewable energy is to remove the dependency on imported oil and existing power stations in the future. Both local (North Sea) oil and British coal (very high energy, quality coal) is getting costly to extract and will soon run out. However, there is a balance to be made between keeping running the existing fossil-fuel and nuclear power stations, which is not so ecological and the economic benefit of using the stations' full lifespan. The UK has a comfortable electric energy surplus so there is no need to create more conventional power stations. The investment has gone into renewables. Europe's largest wind farm went online a few months ago on the coast of Scotland. The problems with wind are objections by the local population (noise at startup can be high). The UK is very densly populated and the few open, unpopulated,
Don's Hot Rod Shop (was Re: [biofuel] Re: Arizona source for methanol
Mark (and Bill,) A quick Google search revealed that inhaling methanol has not affected Mark's brain one little bit: Tucson Guide to Automotive : Parts and Supplies ... Don's Hot Rod Shop. 520-884-8892 2811 N Stone Ave Tucson, AZ 85705. ... Craig girl_mark_fire wrote: Where the Bill In Arizona are you? :) I was getting methanol by the gallon (ie bring your own gas can) from Don's Hot Rod shop in Tucson a year ago for $2.40 a galllon or something like that. I think it was called Don's anyway. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, mkitchin6548 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, Say, does anyone know of a good source for methanol in Az at a good price for a good product ? Thanks, Bill in Az Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
A tank, very much like the kind being sent to the gulf. The main difference is the ones being sent to the gulf are the advanced model and have a 120 mm main gun, a over pressure NBC system, and a few more bells and whistles. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Perry Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 17:52 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears OK, I'll bite: What the heck is a 62 ton M-1 Abrems? Perry - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 01:21 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I'm sure that being able to drive a 62 ton M-1 Abrems, qualifies me to drive a 1 1/2 ton SUV. :-P Greg H. 2. That it is ensured that people who drives them have the necessary special knowledge to do so, by demanding that they have a truck license or similar. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: Deleting - Re: [biofuel] Politics and Biofuels
I share my database, Keith :) Indeed you do Martin, and a lot of us are very grateful for that. No, not good enough, needs a shout - VERY GRATEFUL! :-) It's one helluva lot better than Yahoo's ever-less-usable message archives. Let's try that again: USE MARTIN'S ARCHIVES!! But... not just one archives but two, one of them excellent, it's referenced at the end of every message, nearly 22,000 posts in it now, three years' worth, more than 100 megabytes covering just about every conceivable aspect of biofuels and biofuels issues, in depth, fast and easy to use... But people still come crashing in shouting the odds and laying down the law, wanting lots of attention with old-hat stuff that's been thoroughly dealt with here time and again, it's right under their noses but they don't see it. And then they get all taken aback when the list members somehow inexplicably fail to roll out the red carpet for them. More than 1,800 members now in our two lists, plus another couple of thousand who've come and gone, having found what they wanted and left much of value behind. Why would a person think we don't maybe know a thing or two by now? But there's just no helping some folks. I can't help agreeing with Todd: Ancient Arabian proverb: It is not a wise man who makes much flatulence in a tent filled with strangers. Never mind, for all the noise they're a very tiny minority, a lot of other people use the archives and appreciate it. Regards Keith --- Martin Klingensmith nnytech.net infoarchive.net -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 9:23 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Deleting - Re: [biofuel] Politics and Biofuels A major advantage of subject-specific mailing lists like this one is that you quickly build up a considerable onboard information resource - your own database on biofuels. Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] crude palm oil
menghanc wrote: Hi, Does anyone have information about the transesterification using crude palm oil? How many percent of conversion can be reached? Are the components that are not transesterified being analyzed? What is it? Is it triglyceride? C20 too? It's been much discussed at the Biofuels-biz group - a sister group with a lot of cross-membership. I suggest you do an archive search there for High FFA oils and Michael Allen (including the quotes). The archives is here: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuels-biz Ask again, there or here (or both) if you have further questions. Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Deleting - Re: [biofuel] Politics and Biofuels
Keith, I understand, what you are talking about, and while I do have a 20 gig hard drive in my computer, I also have a number of hobbies and interest. For each of these, I may be on up to 3 or 4 list ( or more ), with a mail box for each, with further break down of boxes for specific info, that I want to categorize. For example: My wife and I share the same e-mail address, so we both have our own separate folders. Within my folder I have a number of folders to include one for Research, in Research, I have a folder for energy. In the energy folder I have sub-folders for Bio-energy, Bio-fuel, Digestion, Energy Options, Fuel cells, Gasification, Thermoelectric, and Wastewatts. These are all groups that I'm am or have been a member of, or specific types of energy production. A rough total for all of these folders is 8,500 e-mails ( and that is not including sub-folders even within these ), I know for a fact that in another primary subject folder, I have over 10,000 e-mails ( and that is not including the e-mails in over a hundred sub-folders in that general category ). While allot of info is good, stuff that will not be of use three days, a week, a month from now really does not need to be saved. If I know that I will not be able to attend a biofuel making seminar that is coming up next month, why save it when I need the disk space for other things, that will be of indefinite use? If one person post a link to a good web site, I can save space by going to the web site and down loading the page, than saving the post with the link, and the thirty comments that fallow it ( unless there is info wrong on the site ). At times I may receive 500+ e-mails a day ( this is really true if two or more list get a hot topic at the same time ), and if I did not go through and wholesale delete some things that I don't have interest in ( or is of no use to me ) I would run out of disk space in a hurry. If I could, I would crop many of the post I get, down to just the info I need ( like highlighting the relevant parts of a text book ), but my e-mail program won't let me do that ( in fact I don't know of any program that would / could do that ). Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 07:23 Subject: Deleting - Re: [biofuel] Politics and Biofuels Not picking on you, lots of people talk of deleting posts - but why? I know a few people still use low-capacity hard-disks, but for most disk capacity isn't a problem, with 10, 20, 40, 80 and more gigabyte disks standard now for some while, and fast machines that handle large amounts of data in no time. I regularly ask people please to crop irrelevant stuff (and multiple footers!) from their posts, but that's to save bandwidth, not disk space, and out of consideration for members with slow and/or expensive connections (often the case in 3rd World countries) and perhaps old gear. IMO it makes more sense to keep all posts. Deleting them is judging in advance what you may find useful later, and as an info-professional of long standing I can tell you that's not a judgment you can make with any assurance. A major advantage of subject-specific mailing lists like this one is that you quickly build up a considerable onboard information resource - your own database on biofuels. This list's database is a fabulous resource, I use it all the time, so do many others. (And it sure adds a little much-needed perspective to those few who complain that all we do here is discuss off-topic political crap, LOL!) You don't build up much in the way of resources if you keep deleting stuff. With a computer it doesn't really matter what's there, it doesn't take perceptibly longer to search 20Mb than 10Mb, and the more that's in there the more depth and breadth it has, and the better your search results will be. Your email program should be able to do a full-text search of a mailbox. That is, you create a mailbox for the Biofuel list, call it Biofuel, and set a filter to send all incoming messages with the header To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com to that mailbox. If your emailer can't do that, and do a proper search, get one that can. After a month the mailbox gets a bit full, so make a new one for the next month and put last month's one in a folder on your hard disk, which you can search with a full-text search program. This mkakes the best use of the information you're receiving, and it will also improve your experience of mailing lists, and of Internet communications generally. And it's a lot easier than hitting the Delete button all the time. By the way, your emailer also should be able to sort messages by date (usually the default), by name of sender, and by subject, which makes everything much easier. If you don't have a capable emailer you're getting a keyhole view of what mailing lists are all about. Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
[biofuel] Fwd: Invitation from Colombia
Any responses direct to Giuseppina Marcazzo V. please, he's not a list member. (And I ain't no Dr, LOL!) Best Keith From: TECNICAA [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Invitation from Colombia Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 11:19:26 -0500 Dr. KEITH ADDISON. Journey to Forever Dear Dr. Addison. The Industrial Development of Biotechnology and Clean production Corporation CORPODIB, The Colombian Sugar Cane Producers Association ASOCAA and The Colombian Association of Sugar Cane Technologists TECNICAA are organizing a semminar of fuel ethanol production from sugar cane to be oxigenate for Colombian gasoline. The semminar it«s between June 17th. and June 18th / 2.003 in Cali, Colombia. We are interested on bring to the participants a succes story of ethanol production based in maize. As we saw at your web page there is a sucess story in Minnesota and, we supose there are more. We wnat to know the possibility yhat you or some one from your institution or from the Plant at Minnesota can accept our invitation to participate with an oral presentation on : Fuel Ethanol Production from maize. Also, we are looking for someone who can participate with a presentation about : Experience Ethanol Fuel as oxigenate for gasoline in U.S.A. Could you please tell us, if it will be possible and the conditions for your displacement and participation (Tickets, Hotel, Fees, etc...) The participants of the semminar will be representatives of South and Central America that are seeking for opportunities throug ethanol fuel production. Those that are involved with decission making . Presidents, CEO«S, General Managers, Managers of technical areas at public or private institutions that consider this initiative. Most of them are sugar cane producers. Thank«s a lot. We will stay in attention to your answer. Best Regards, Giuseppina Marcazzo V. TECNICAA Executive Director Semminar Cordinator Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Tanks Alot!
Doug, Good question. I will definately try to find out exactly what was in them. Hope it wasn't something to icky! Mark --- Doug Allbright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what were these tanks used for ? -Original Message- From: Mark Foltarz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:10 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Tanks Alot! Todd, Holy smokes did I find some killer tanks today. These things are completely enclosed stainless steel rectangular tanks. They have to be at least 600 gallons. Totally suited for methanol reclamaition - there is a hatch on top and a few fittings. Easily modifiable to add heat - or heck just build a fire underneath! Slight slope to drain on the the side. $600 wait a month and they will be $300 Mark __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/M=246920.2960106.4328965.2848452/D=egroupweb/S=1705083269:HM/A=1464858/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/cpm/grp/300_Cquo_1/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=246920.2960106.4328965.2848452/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1464858/rand=556102477 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- New Yahoo! Mail Plus. More flexibility. More control. More power. Get POP access, more storage, more filters, and more. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Hcb0iA/P.iFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
I second that, Thor. I also have a VW Golf TDI. You've seen www.tdiclub.com right? Do yourself a favor and go and get an Upsolute chip. My mileage increased, and the car feels like a Porsche. :) Ryan Morgan Tempe, AZ -Original Message- From: Thor Skov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:24 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears --- Domenick V. Amato wrote: What is luxo junk to one is comfort and safety to another. The general public votes with its pocket book for SUVs and pickup trucks. Fifty million Americans can't be politically incorrect. Dom Amato Hello Don, By that logic, slavery wasn't bad. Neither was Hitler (I mean, 80 million? Germans can't be wrong). But, Don, you're absolutely correct that the general public does vote for SUVs with their pocketbook. The question is, why? Your implied answer to that question seems to be because they know what's best for them. That's possible. It is also possible that people are duped by advertising, have few fuel efficient automobile choices, and often do not make rational economic choices. I've read (and though I can't provide a reference, I'm sure someone else on this list can) that SUVs are the most profitable cars for automakers, which is why they push them so hard. It's a fact that SUVs are a loophole around CAFE standards. People have latched onto them, for sure, but don't try to tell me that the SUV phenomenon was not driven to a great degree by advertising. Automakers love to claim that they just build what people want, but they have a strong hand in creating those wants. Fact: automakers didn't want to have to invest in the research to design fuel efficient engines, make the commitment to retool factories. It was easier to take a truck frame and build a car on it. Europeans have fuel efficient cars. Why don't we? When I went to look for a fuel efficient car my choices were incredibly limited - Honda Insight, Honda Civic, Ford Focus, Toyota Prius, Toyota Corolla, and the VW TDI. I opted for the VW Golf because it was cheaper than the Insight and Prius (as well as more available, was the only hatchback, could burn biodiesel, was more comfortable than the Fords, seemed better engineered and had better styling, and was a hatchback. Also, I like the way a european car drives, compared to a japanese. Now, I love my Golf, but I was lucky to find a model that I indeed did like from among the paucity of choices. I honestly think that American values are messed up--people really do love big cars, and small cars with big engines. It's about power power power, and yet there is no place to use this power. People want cars that can go 140 mph, but will never drive them faster than half that. Doesn't seem rational to me. I remember longing for a Toyota SR5 4WD pickup when I was in high school (just like the one in Back to the Future), but hey, I GREW UP! Fact: SUVs are not the safest cars out there; minivans are, and they have more room, get better mileage, and cost less than SUVs. But minivans are not cool which tells me that people are thinking about styling and image (the advertising influence) and not about economics or practicality. Also, most people are bent on ownership versus receiving a flow of services from an automobile. Let me explain. I live in Seattle, where it seems that every other vehicle is an SUV or a truck. People insist they need a 4wd vehicle. But we have mild winters, with little snow to speak of, and the one time a year it does snow you stay at home since Seattle is full of hills and people here don't know how to drive in snow anyway. So 2 inches shuts everything down. Now a lot of people I know who own SUVs claim that they need them to go to the mountains, to go skiing, etc etc. However, most ski areas you can get to just fine with a front wheel drive car. And who's really going to take a $55,000 Escalade or Navigator or Mercedes off-road? But let's assume that they do indeed go somewhere where an *only* an SUV can go. How often is that? 2, 3 times a year at most? So they purchase an SUV ostensibly for those rare occasions, and the other 355 days they commute in a gas guzzling behemoth. If instead they had an efficient car for their daily needs, they could take all that money they save in capital and operating costs (licensing, fuel, insurance) and rent an SUV for the few times they need it, and have cash left over. Would you go out and buy a dumptruck if you needed to haul a load of dirt, and then drive it to work every day? But, people are taught by advertising and by example to think in terms of ownership, not in flows of services. I know that cars are (unfortunately) part of the american persona and american psyche. And the American dream and the american myth. But just because a lot of people buy SUVs does not mean that they are making a good choice, nor that SUVs are the best
Re: [biofuel] Re: SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
YOU NEED AN SUV! Sometime, for fun, (YOU NEED AN SUV!!) add up the number (YOU CAN GO ANYWHERE AND BE FREE!!) of SUV/Pickup commercials (YOU WILL BE HAPPIER!) and sporty fast 200 hp sedan (YOU WILL BE NOTICED!) commercials you view (THE OPPOSITE SEX SEX SEX WILL LIKE YOU BETTER!) in a week of TV watching (YOU WILL FEEL INVINCIBLE!!) and you will (YOU NEED A TRUC!!) know why there was a (YOU NEED A TRUCK) shift to minivans (YOU WILL FEEL POWERFUL JUST BY BUYING MORE FUEL!!!) and then to trucks and SUV's!! Repeat after me...repetition (SEX) in advertising works. Repeat after me...repetition in (POWER) advertising works. Repeat after me...repetition in (LOVE) advertising works. On Friday, February 28, 2003, at 11:10 AM, Ryan Morgan, Aerials Express wrote: I second that, Thor. I also have a VW Golf TDI. You've seen www.tdiclub.com right? Do yourself a favor and go and get an Upsolute chip. My mileage increased, and the car feels like a Porsche. :) Ryan Morgan Tempe, AZ -Original Message- From: Thor Skov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:24 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears --- Domenick V. Amato wrote: What is luxo junk to one is comfort and safety to another. The general public votes with its pocket book for SUVs and pickup trucks. Fifty million Americans can't be politically incorrect. Dom Amato Hello Don, By that logic, slavery wasn't bad. Neither was Hitler (I mean, 80 million? Germans can't be wrong). But, Don, you're absolutely correct that the general public does vote for SUVs with their pocketbook. The question is, why? Your implied answer to that question seems to be because they know what's best for them. That's possible. It is also possible that people are duped by advertising, have few fuel efficient automobile choices, and often do not make rational economic choices. I've read (and though I can't provide a reference, I'm sure someone else on this list can) that SUVs are the most profitable cars for automakers, which is why they push them so hard. It's a fact that SUVs are a loophole around CAFE standards. People have latched onto them, for sure, but don't try to tell me that the SUV phenomenon was not driven to a great degree by advertising. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Deleting - Re: [biofuel] Politics and Biofuels
Hi Greg Sounds familiar... I know you're not a novice at this, and we're on many of the same lists, so I know you get around. And I don't want to suggest that you change the system you've developed. But (you knew that was coming, eh? - LOL!) there are a couple of things that still don't add up for me. I imagine your machine's as fast and capable as mine is, more or less - probably not much in it. Your HD is 20Gb, mine's 40Gb, but it doesn't make any difference, my disk is still three-quarters empty - it says 8.50 Gb on disk for 73,519 items, very many of which contain many more items, I've no idea how many altogether. Apart from mailing lists, other correspondence and the databases I mentioned, there's also a rather large website, with its own large set of info databases, and correspondence, and yet another such for Journey to Forever itself (the project rather than the website). And a whole bunch of other stuff, including a digital library with a couple of thousand books (and sort-of books) in it, plus a lot of journalism stuff. I get 600-800 emails a day, a lot of that being feedback for Journey to Forever, which needs response and proper management. But I never delete anything. Do you really need to save space? Do you have a good full-text search program? Best wishes Keith Keith, I understand, what you are talking about, and while I do have a 20 gig hard drive in my computer, I also have a number of hobbies and interest. For each of these, I may be on up to 3 or 4 list ( or more ), with a mail box for each, with further break down of boxes for specific info, that I want to categorize. For example: My wife and I share the same e-mail address, so we both have our own separate folders. Within my folder I have a number of folders to include one for Research, in Research, I have a folder for energy. In the energy folder I have sub-folders for Bio-energy, Bio-fuel, Digestion, Energy Options, Fuel cells, Gasification, Thermoelectric, and Wastewatts. These are all groups that I'm am or have been a member of, or specific types of energy production. A rough total for all of these folders is 8,500 e-mails ( and that is not including sub-folders even within these ), I know for a fact that in another primary subject folder, I have over 10,000 e-mails ( and that is not including the e-mails in over a hundred sub-folders in that general category ). While allot of info is good, stuff that will not be of use three days, a week, a month from now really does not need to be saved. If I know that I will not be able to attend a biofuel making seminar that is coming up next month, why save it when I need the disk space for other things, that will be of indefinite use? If one person post a link to a good web site, I can save space by going to the web site and down loading the page, than saving the post with the link, and the thirty comments that fallow it ( unless there is info wrong on the site ). At times I may receive 500+ e-mails a day ( this is really true if two or more list get a hot topic at the same time ), and if I did not go through and wholesale delete some things that I don't have interest in ( or is of no use to me ) I would run out of disk space in a hurry. If I could, I would crop many of the post I get, down to just the info I need ( like highlighting the relevant parts of a text book ), but my e-mail program won't let me do that ( in fact I don't know of any program that would / could do that ). Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 07:23 Subject: Deleting - Re: [biofuel] Politics and Biofuels Not picking on you, lots of people talk of deleting posts - but why? I know a few people still use low-capacity hard-disks, but for most disk capacity isn't a problem, with 10, 20, 40, 80 and more gigabyte disks standard now for some while, and fast machines that handle large amounts of data in no time. I regularly ask people please to crop irrelevant stuff (and multiple footers!) from their posts, but that's to save bandwidth, not disk space, and out of consideration for members with slow and/or expensive connections (often the case in 3rd World countries) and perhaps old gear. IMO it makes more sense to keep all posts. Deleting them is judging in advance what you may find useful later, and as an info-professional of long standing I can tell you that's not a judgment you can make with any assurance. A major advantage of subject-specific mailing lists like this one is that you quickly build up a considerable onboard information resource - your own database on biofuels. This list's database is a fabulous resource, I use it all the time, so do many others. (And it sure adds a little much-needed perspective to those few who complain that all we do here is discuss off-topic political crap, LOL!) You don't build up much in the way of resources
Re: [biofuel] Re: Behind the Great Divide
Ladies and Gentlemen: When I wrote that I was reading email from this group for the first time. I am a chemist who was, in the past, involved only marginally with the oil business. I want to become involved with biofuels because I see it as an opportunity to do something that can be both creditable and profitable. As I scanned down the long list of emails with biofuels in the subject line, all I seemed to see were pro and anti-war commentary and an occasional harangue. It does not matter to me what your political affiliation is or what your opinion is any particular topic. I have my own opinions. What matters to me in the opportunity to learn something and , perhaps, the opportunity to share something I know in return. I simply do not see the point of lambasting someone's antiwar position or lambasting George Bush for threatening war. It accomplishes nothing in this arena. However, discussing the effect of war or the possibility of war on the price of oil and, therefore, on the viability or development of biofuels is on-topic. We don't have many rules here, Mr Amato, but here's one of them: No topic-cops. One would have thought you might have gathered that by now. Consider this as a warning - stop trying to lay down the law on what may and may not be discussed here and how list members should behave. Nor do we need to be told what does and doesn't accomplish the goals of the list. The Biofuel mailing list is by far the biggest, most dynamic, and most successful mailing list in its subject area on the Internet. It has been most successful in promoting awareness of biofuels and biofuels issues worldwide, in helping to develop technology and methodology for small-scale use, in providing information for a very wide variety of people, from would-be to experienced biofuellers to the media, in providing a base and materials for specific campaigns and advocacy efforts, and much besides. You're just another newbie, but you've been making a lot of untoward noise. Newbies are usually welcomed and helped, it's not surprising you weren't. I strongly suggest you reconsider your approach. Keith Addison Moderator This group is one of a number of sources of information that I have begun to use. It is useful to me only if the value is worth the effort. There have been good discussions here so I will participate. However, I will block senders whom I feel are primarily political in an attempt to focus on something that I may be able to control. And I will be less likely to offend them. Dom Amato - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 3:00 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Behind the Great Divide Thank you for the compliment Hakan- I ignore a lot of political postings I disagree with here- my theory is that renewable energy appeals to people across all ends of the political spectrum- which is very unique. Though it sometimes it's really disturbing to see the disagreements, and in my case very disturbing to see the ignorance of some Americans. anyway the problem with dominick's post that 'set me off' was that I draw the line at someone from the US telling an international list composed of lots of 'Third World' people that they are destructive to the natural world whereas we are somehow 'less so'. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dom, A majority of postings are about energy related questions. You managed with something very rare. Girl_Mark that is one of the most knowledgeable and that to 99% always share useful information, reacted on one of your stupid (I very seldom use this kind of evaluations) and discriminating postings. I did not think I would see that. Hakan At 09:42 PM 2/26/2003 -0600, you wrote: I am new to this biofuels group but can't help wondering why so few people talk about biofuels? Dom Amato snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Just one man's observation! Was: Looking at theRESPONSE ... too all that's going onin the world.
Domenick V. Amato wrote: Robert I do not disagree with you. Some times, though, it is difficult to distinguish the purely political from the politics of biofuels. Truly, discussion is an American pastime and must be encouraged. The membership of this list is worldwide, with members from at least 100 countries. Americans are a minority here, and, though a highly valued one, a small number of them tend to forget that. I simply feel that we can achieve better results for both the discussion on politics and for the discussion on biofuels if we were to be more disciplined and focused about topics that are so important. Your view of what's important will have to co-exist with very many other views, many or most of which will not accord with yours. Biofuels and energy issues and their contexts mean vastly different things to different members living in other countries, other cultures - and indeed to many living in your country and your culture, as you've now seen. You have my opinion. I'm sure that people who agree and disagree will continue to do so - as they normally do in a discussion. The trouble with your opinion is that you tried to impose it. That is not acceptable here. Keith Addison Moderator Dom - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 11:02 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Just one man's observation! Was: Looking at theRESPONSE ... too all that's going onin the world. Domenick V. Amato wrote: Why don't you move your discussions to a group for which it is appropriate? You are certainly entitled to what ever political opinions you have and you are entitled to speak whatever you like. This, however, is NOT the place for it. It is SPAM relative to the topics for which this group is organized. To the extent that you continue with this political self-indulgence, you damage the purpose of this group. Dom Amato Political discussion is VITAL to the future of biofuels. This evening is the first time since I've been a member of this group that I've read a post from you, so perhaps you're new. Many of us have been contributing for a long time (years, even!), and the discussion often yields fruitful information for thought or future experimentation. A certain member, when lamenting the relative uselessness of lightweight modern American trucks for snow plowing, (clearly an off topic post!) mentioned that he runs up to 50% diesel in his small block Chevy powered truck. I've often thought that using a Babington atomizer would be an excellent way to get a spark ignition engine to burn vegetable oil--at least one running at a constant speed for power generation. In fact, I've spent a lot of time thinking about modifying the Babington apparatus as a fuel reforming device. (But I just bought a supercharger for my pathetic, four cylinder Ford Ranger and my longsuffering wife isn't happy with me right now. . . ) The post I mentioned above had nothing to do with biofuels, but the ideas that wove their threads through my mind after reading the message certainly did. I read through well over 100 messages a day, many of them cross posted from wastewatts, the EV list, micro cogeneration and others. Much of that discussion is utterly meaningless to me, but once in awhile I come across something valuable. (So, either read fast, as I do, or filter your messages to limit the content. There is no harm in self imposed censorship!) Trying to limit discussion puts you in the position of being final arbiter of what ideas are acceptable to exchange in this forum. I neither know, nor trust you (yet, anyway!), and from what I've read thus far, I don't think you fully understand the spirit of this particular forum. After all, why shouldn't I be able to talk about the linkage between poor political leadership, the absolute lack of a decent energy policy and the Fundamentalist, Dispensationalist antichristian ideology that supports military action to INCREASE the misery of people who have no ability to defend themselves against us? (I heard an excellent feature this morning on NPR about this very thing! See the link at: http://discover.npr.org/rundowns/rundown.jhtml?prgId=3prgDate=current The news story was entitled: Evangelicals for War--an oxymoron if there ever SHOULD be one! My interest in reducing energy use and using unconventional fuels necessarily limits the audience with whom I can discuss these issues. Personally, I would like to hear what like minded people are thinking--even if they disagree with me, as many in this forum do. Dissent is NOT unAmerican! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Domenick V. Amato wrote: Thank you for your clarification and your comments. I will limit myself to discussion about biofuels - although it has been very tempting to jump in (on?) statements which appear to be very disagreeable. Dom Amato You're more than welcome to discuss anything you wish. To say it yet again - these are mature people here and probably more individualistic than most, they don't need a nanny telling them what they're allowed to discuss and what not. Robert's point that off-topic discussions often lead somewhere worthwhile is definitely true, it happens again and again. In nearly all cases members are quite capable of moderating themselves, they know when they're being truly off-topic and seldom stray too far. [Moderator mode off.] - Original Message - From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:43 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Domenick V. Amato wrote: That's probably one of the most lame answers I have heard in a very long time. I can assure you that the person who was in the SUV does not agree. Railroad trains can kill SUVs and Yugos can kill pedestrians. Should we ban railroad trains and Yugos or SUVs and pedestrians? We probably should ban cars below the size of an SUV because they are the most unsafe of vehicles when involved in a accident. An archives search might have stopped you making this post - not a lame answer, SUVs do kill, and small cars are not inherently more dangerous. Weren't you saying something about sweeping generalizations? If you now want to dub what I've just said as just such sweeping generalizations, don't forget that I've referred you to supporting material in the archives, but you've offered no support for any of the statements you've made other than your opinion. In fact you re-started an old thread here that had already been responded to (and dealt with a few times previous to that), but you missed the responses. Some time spent at the archives might have stopped you doing that too. Keith Addison In my experience, we effectively do ban railroad trains. We require them to have their own roads, and where they do intersect with automotive traffic, they require crossing gates or special warning signage, all erected at the expense of the rail operators. Pedestrians are often provided with their own paths (sidewalks, crosswalks etc) to keep them separated from automotive traffic to reduce injuries from contact. In some places, heavy trucks (over 5 tonnes) get their own roads, or at least their own lanes on highways. So far, we do not require SUVs and light trucks to have their own roads, but this may be primarily because their appearance in large quantities is a relatively new phenomenon. As for the tone of this list, I think if you review this thread, no one here has proposed a ban on SUVs. We had a couple of posters who chose to interpret some comments in that way. We do have some folks (including me) that would prefer to see drivers of heavy SUVs obtain additional licensing to operate these vehicles to ensure they know how they differ from smaller vehicles with lower centers of gravity. Rollovers are a greater concern with SUVs and other high clearance vehicles than those with lower CGs. Larger equipment is topical, as it often uses diesel engines. Still, I don't plan to use a large diesel truck for commuting over a smaller vehicle just because it can run biodiesel. Darryl McMahon Darryl McMahon 48 Tarquin Crescent, Econogics, Inc. Nepean, Ontario K2H 8J8 It's your planet. Voice: (613)784-0655 If you won't look Fax: (613)828-3199 after it, who will?http://www.econogics.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Deleting - Re: [biofuel] Politics and Biofuels
I also have a little PC game habit, and while the habit is little, the games are not ( strategic tactical sim. type games ). :-P And like I said before, I am sharing the computer with the wife, and she has her own agenda ( which does not include getting rid of outdated stuff ). Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 12:22 Subject: Re: Deleting - Re: [biofuel] Politics and Biofuels Hi Greg Sounds familiar... I know you're not a novice at this, and we're on many of the same lists, so I know you get around. And I don't want to suggest that you change the system you've developed. But (you knew that was coming, eh? - LOL!) there are a couple of things that still don't add up for me. I imagine your machine's as fast and capable as mine is, more or less - probably not much in it. Your HD is 20Gb, mine's 40Gb, but it doesn't make any difference, my disk is still three-quarters empty - it says 8.50 Gb on disk for 73,519 items, very many of which contain many more items, I've no idea how many altogether. Apart from mailing lists, other correspondence and the databases I mentioned, there's also a rather large website, with its own large set of info databases, and correspondence, and yet another such for Journey to Forever itself (the project rather than the website). And a whole bunch of other stuff, including a digital library with a couple of thousand books (and sort-of books) in it, plus a lot of journalism stuff. I get 600-800 emails a day, a lot of that being feedback for Journey to Forever, which needs response and proper management. But I never delete anything. Do you really need to save space? Do you have a good full-text search program? Best wishes Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Politics and Biofuels
Hakan, Thanks for the kind words. I suffered from the incorrect assumption that most of the folks here are Americans. I have now been educated. I am as susceptible to the temptation to discriminate as anyone, perhaps more so since I am American. I try not to discriminate, and I try hard to see others points of view. I have found that no matter how much I disagree with certain opinions voiced here and elsewhere, there is certainly some degree of truth in them for me to consider. My reference to calling someone stupid was in response to something I read here to the effect that our president, G.W. Bush is stupid due to the excessive amounts of diet soda he drinks and the associated physiological effects of the aspartame contained in it. Or at least I thought that's what I read. Looking back through the posts, I cannot find that particular statement - so maybe I misunderstood. (But there is the problem - I cannot easily search through these posts to find that reference.) The statement wasn't referring to anyone here as stupid, but I do not believe that GW Bush is stupid. There appear to be those here who do, primarily it seems because they disagree with his policies. My point was, that while I disagreed with almost every policy and decision made by former President Clinton, I don't believe he is stupid. Referring to someone as stupid because you disagree with their opinions and policies is discrimination in my mind. I think it is quite difficult to become the president of the USA without being intelligent. As for e-mail - the only reliable e-mail I have is at work and is mainframe computer based. It cannot handle the volume of messages generated by this discussion group. My only access is online - which is painfully slow. Greg --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Greg Birky, The only time I know of somebody called something stupid it was me and about Dom Amato's discriminating view of immigrants. I was upset and as I said, I do not normally use this word. I stand for my opinion and if you want hear that word again, just express a similar view that contains racism or other discrimination and I will repeat it. Judging your balanced posting, I think it will be hard for you to do. Education and ignorance have nothing to do with discrimination, on the contrary, it is often something that you hear from people that regard themselves as educated and superior. I think that you are right, you came in at an atypical time, a very unique situation in the normal discussions on the board. Hakan Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs Online-No late fees! Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/bbvVKB/oEZFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Arizona source for methanol
Where the Bill In Arizona are you? :) I was getting methanol by the gallon (ie bring your own gas can) from Don's Hot Rod shop in Tucson a year ago for $2.40 a galllon or something like that. I think it was called Don's anyway. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, mkitchin6548 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello All, Say, does anyone know of a good source for methanol in Az at a good price for a good product ? Thanks, Bill in Az Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Bush Eyes Public Lands For Renewable Energy
On Fri, 28 Feb 2003 22:35:13 +0900, you wrote: http://ens-news.com/ens/feb2003/2003-02-24-10.asp ens Bush Eyes Public Lands For Renewable Energy By J.R. Pegg DENVER, Colorado, February 24, 2003 (ENS) - Even as the Bush administration proposes slashing funding for most renewable energy programs in next year's budget, administration officials are touting the untapped potential of renewable energy resources located on millions of acres of federal land. A new government report finds that public lands have abundant opportunities for renewable energy development, assistant secretary of the Interior for land and minerals management Rebecca Watson told reporters Friday. really? Rebecca Watson, assistant secretary of the Interior for Land and Minerals Management (Photo courtesy The Bush Administration) Increasing our domestic development of renewable energy sources will help to reduce our dependency on foreign sources of energy, Watson said. Yes. Ok. So little, so late, but ok. The report analyzes the potential of geothermal, solar, wind and biomass resources on the majority of the 230 million acres managed by the Department of Interior's Bureau of Land Management (BLM). The report found that 63 BLM planning units in 11 surveyed states have high potential for the development of one or more renewable energy sources. No, I simply can't believe it. Who would have thunk? But some said the report is not what the renewable energy industry needs to promote growth. It is a helpful contribution, but it will do little to further renewable energy development, said Alan Nogee, director of the Clean Energy Program at the Union of Concerned Scientists, a nonprofit research group. Expanded markets and federal incentives are needed to spur the renewable energy industry, Nogee explained. He argues that if the administration is serious about renewable energy, it should look both overseas and to U.S. state governments for successful strategies. Solar energy offers a virtually unlimited source of clean, renewable power. Here, the world's largest solar power facility, located near Kramer Junction, California, stretches into the distance. (Photo courtesy National Renewable Energy Laboratory) Today, for example, the United Kingdom announced some $1.6 billion in government funding to enable it to generate fully 20 percent of its electricity from wind, wave and solar power by 2020. The policy uses tax incentives to promote renewable energy generation and requires electricity suppliers to meet a proportion of their needs from renewable energy sources. Within the United States, 13 states have renewable energy standards that require their utilities to purchase varying percentages of their power from renewable sources, and some 12 more are discussing them. Yet the Bush administration has opposed forcing utilities to buy energy from renewable sources. The latest budget plan from the White House cuts funding for most renewable energy programs and virtually eliminates $23 million in grants and loans to farmers, ranchers and small businesses for the development of renewable energy projects and energy efficiency programs. This is a useful baby step when giant leaps are what is really needed to ensure our energy security and increase our renewable energy supply, Nogee said. Exactly. Credit should be given where it is due, and that is very very little credit. The Bush Administration is dragging its feet on a critical issue. Valuable opportunities are being lost, every day, by this foot-dragging. Shame on them. The report, jointly prepared by the BLM and the Energy Department's National Renewable Energy Laboratory, relied upon federal data and statistics for lands within 11 western U.S. states - including Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, New Mexico, Nevada, Oregon, Utah, Washington and Wyoming - taking into account weather, terrain and the existence of roads, potential workers and transmission lines. A total of 35 BLM units were listed as having high potential for the near term development of geothermal energy. Twenty BLM planning units in seven Western states have high potential from three or more renewable energy sources. Eighteen of these sites are in Arizona, California, New Mexico, Nevada and Utah. Wind energy is the fastest growing segment of the world's renewable energy sector. Some conservation groups say these giant turbines are better suited for private property than for public landscapes. (Photo courtesy National Renewable Energy Laboratory) It is these sites that the report detailed as a starting point for discussions regarding priorities for BLM land use planning activities. BLM can then determine the best order in which to prepare or amend land use plans to meet the Interior Secretary's commitment to using energy from renewable resources on public lands, according to the report. Watson said that public land managers would be looking to
Re: [biofuel] Bush Eyes Public Lands For Renewable Energy
Bush plans for biomass? Blair's White Paper? Am I the only one sensing an intent towards distraction or even to buy favor amongst a particular social sect in order to calm protestations of war? Where was this paper and where was Bush's environmental concern over the past two years? While perhaps admirable, it could easily be perceived as being only that - a smokescreen of momentary appeasement to sentiments with no factual basis beyond expression of intent - yet another greenwash. Dismantling the Clean Air Act? Kyoto? Closed Curtain Energy Policy? Homey's not buying it. Bush and Blair are more prone to eyeing but one thing - public opinion at a critical moment. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 8:35 AM Subject: [biofuel] Bush Eyes Public Lands For Renewable Energy http://ens-news.com/ens/feb2003/2003-02-24-10.asp ens Bush Eyes Public Lands For Renewable Energy By J.R. Pegg DENVER, Colorado, February 24, 2003 (ENS) - Even as the Bush administration proposes slashing funding for most renewable energy programs in next year's budget, administration officials are touting the untapped potential of renewable energy resources located on millions of acres of federal land. A new government report finds that public lands have abundant opportunities for renewable energy development, assistant secretary of the Interior for land and minerals management Rebecca Watson told reporters Friday. Rebecca Watson, assistant secretary of the Interior for Land and Minerals Management (Photo courtesy The Bush Administration) Increasing our domestic development of renewable energy sources will help to reduce our dependency on foreign sources of energy, Watson said. The report analyzes the potential of geothermal, solar, wind and biomass resources on the majority of the 230 million acres managed by the Department of Interior's Bureau of Land Management (BLM). The report found that 63 BLM planning units in 11 surveyed states have high potential for the development of one or more renewable energy sources. But some said the report is not what the renewable energy industry needs to promote growth. It is a helpful contribution, but it will do little to further renewable energy development, said Alan Nogee, director of the Clean Energy Program at the Union of Concerned Scientists, a nonprofit research group. Expanded markets and federal incentives are needed to spur the renewable energy industry, Nogee explained. He argues that if the administration is serious about renewable energy, it should look both overseas and to U.S. state governments for successful strategies. Solar energy offers a virtually unlimited source of clean, renewable power. Here, the world's largest solar power facility, located near Kramer Junction, California, stretches into the distance. (Photo courtesy National Renewable Energy Laboratory) Today, for example, the United Kingdom announced some $1.6 billion in government funding to enable it to generate fully 20 percent of its electricity from wind, wave and solar power by 2020. The policy uses tax incentives to promote renewable energy generation and requires electricity suppliers to meet a proportion of their needs from renewable energy sources. Within the United States, 13 states have renewable energy standards that require their utilities to purchase varying percentages of their power from renewable sources, and some 12 more are discussing them. Yet the Bush administration has opposed forcing utilities to buy energy from renewable sources. The latest budget plan from the White House cuts funding for most renewable energy programs and virtually eliminates $23 million in grants and loans to farmers, ranchers and small businesses for the development of renewable energy projects and energy efficiency programs. This is a useful baby step when giant leaps are what is really needed to ensure our energy security and increase our renewable energy supply, Nogee said. The report, jointly prepared by the BLM and the Energy Department's National Renewable Energy Laboratory, relied upon federal data and statistics for lands within 11 western U.S. states - including Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, New Mexico, Nevada, Oregon, Utah, Washington and Wyoming - taking into account weather, terrain and the existence of roads, potential workers and transmission lines. A total of 35 BLM units were listed as having high potential for the near term development of geothermal energy. Twenty BLM planning units in seven Western states have high potential from three or more renewable energy sources. Eighteen of these sites are in Arizona, California, New Mexico, Nevada and Utah. Wind energy is the fastest growing segment of the world's renewable energy sector. Some conservation groups say these
[biofuel] Resource Limits
A Question for Dom, You wrote: There are no resource limits - only mental limits. I am curious what you mean by this. Thor __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Perhaps many .. but not all Was: SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Would everyone PLEASE stop making these sweeping generalizations!! PLEASE?? I talk about SUV's ... and everyone tells me to shut up about it. So I do. Now another silly ALL SUV OWNERS ARE AFTER THE POWER ... ALL SUV OWNERS ARE AFTER THE PRESTIGE ALL SUV OWNERS . ... Comes out of the woodworks. Sheesh!! REMEMBER (Ok??) that when you say ALL SUV owners ... you talk about ME. If only indirectly hm?? Most of the vehicles I've purchase since about 1985 or so have either been 4X4 trucks and you guessed it(!!) the much-talked-about SUV. Yet I don't choose these vehicles because of some ego factor ... I choose these vehicles because of the way their mechanically constructed ... it agrees quietly with the way I like a vehicle built. 4X4 trucks and SUV's are a few of the only vehicles constructed that way. THATS why I choose these vehicles NOT because it enhances some middle-finger-snotty-nose-f***-you-attitude. And no ... I don't swerve in-and-out with it ... I don't talk on a snotty cell phone while driving it .. I don't flip off other drivers ... I don't spin around turns with Kids in it I driver courteously I signal while making turns AND LASTLY ... I plan my trips .. to minimize my usage of fuel. So please ... STOP making these we KNOW why SUV drivers buy and drive these SUV's statements. It ticks me off hearing about it. Especially since all (SUV drivers) ... all includes me. Thank you. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] YOU NEED AN SUV! Sometime, for fun, (YOU NEED AN SUV!!) add up the number (YOU CAN GO ANYWHERE AND BE FREE!!) of SUV/Pickup commercials (YOU WILL BE HAPPIER!) and sporty fast 200 hp sedan (YOU WILL BE NOTICED!) commercials you view (THE OPPOSITE SEX SEX SEX WILL LIKE YOU BETTER!) in a week of TV watching (YOU WILL FEEL INVINCIBLE!!) and you will (YOU NEED A TRUCK!!) know why there was a (YOU NEED A TRUCK) shift to minivans (YOU WILL FEEL POWERFUL JUST BY BUYING MORE FUEL!!!) and then to trucks and SUV's!! Repeat after me...repetition (SEX) in advertising works. Repeat after me...repetition in (POWER) advertising works. Repeat after me...repetition in (LOVE) advertising works. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- New Yahoo! Mail Plus. More flexibility. More control. More power. Get POP access, more storage, more filters, and more. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Hcb0iA/P.iFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Tanks Alot!
I am curious to know becuase I would like to know what I might keep my eyes open for. Yup I want my killer tanks too! -Original Message- From: Mark Foltarz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 12:53 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Tanks Alot! Doug, Good question. I will definately try to find out exactly what was in them. Hope it wasn't something to icky! Mark --- Doug Allbright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what were these tanks used for ? -Original Message- From: Mark Foltarz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:10 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Tanks Alot! Todd, Holy smokes did I find some killer tanks today. These things are completely enclosed stainless steel rectangular tanks. They have to be at least 600 gallons. Totally suited for methanol reclamaition - there is a hatch on top and a few fittings. Easily modifiable to add heat - or heck just build a fire underneath! Slight slope to drain on the the side. $600 wait a month and they will be $300 Mark [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Perhaps many .. but not all Was: SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Me thinks something got under his skin :-) - Original Message - From: csakima [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 5:58 PM Subject: [biofuel] Perhaps many .. but not all Was: SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Would everyone PLEASE stop making these sweeping generalizations!! PLEASE?? I talk about SUV's ... and everyone tells me to shut up about it. So I do. Now another silly ALL SUV OWNERS ARE AFTER THE POWER ... ALL SUV OWNERS ARE AFTER THE PRESTIGE ALL SUV OWNERS . ... Comes out of the woodworks. Sheesh!! REMEMBER (Ok??) that when you say ALL SUV owners ... you talk about ME. If only indirectly hm?? Most of the vehicles I've purchase since about 1985 or so have either been 4X4 trucks and you guessed it(!!) the much-talked-about SUV. Yet I don't choose these vehicles because of some ego factor ... I choose these vehicles because of the way their mechanically constructed ... it agrees quietly with the way I like a vehicle built. 4X4 trucks and SUV's are a few of the only vehicles constructed that way. THATS why I choose these vehicles NOT because it enhances some middle-finger-snotty-nose-f***-you-attitude. And no ... I don't swerve in-and-out with it ... I don't talk on a snotty cell phone while driving it .. I don't flip off other drivers ... I don't spin around turns with Kids in it I driver courteously I signal while making turns AND LASTLY ... I plan my trips .. to minimize my usage of fuel. So please ... STOP making these we KNOW why SUV drivers buy and drive these SUV's statements. It ticks me off hearing about it. Especially since all (SUV drivers) ... all includes me. Thank you. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] YOU NEED AN SUV! Sometime, for fun, (YOU NEED AN SUV!!) add up the number (YOU CAN GO ANYWHERE AND BE FREE!!) of SUV/Pickup commercials (YOU WILL BE HAPPIER!) and sporty fast 200 hp sedan (YOU WILL BE NOTICED!) commercials you view (THE OPPOSITE SEX SEX SEX WILL LIKE YOU BETTER!) in a week of TV watching (YOU WILL FEEL INVINCIBLE!!) and you will (YOU NEED A TRUCK!!) know why there was a (YOU NEED A TRUCK) shift to minivans (YOU WILL FEEL POWERFUL JUST BY BUYING MORE FUEL!!!) and then to trucks and SUV's!! Repeat after me...repetition (SEX) in advertising works. Repeat after me...repetition in (POWER) advertising works. Repeat after me...repetition in (LOVE) advertising works. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- New Yahoo! Mail Plus. More flexibility. More control. More power. Get POP access, more storage, more filters, and more. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Hcb0iA/P.iFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Mark: He is an ex-Nam vet. He only has US weapons. The tanks are only a small part of his private collection. He also has helos, Armor personal carriers(APC). A little bit of everything. He has been in the local paper few times. He has permits to create a memorial to fallen vets. His place is 1 hour North of Chicago next to the West side of Interstate 94. Harley -Original Message- From: Mark Foltarz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 12:19 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Wow! Any German or Russian metal? Hey, fire them all up and it could be like Kirsk summer of '43! Mark --- harley3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hakan: Off subject. sorry, but 20 miles south of where I live. There is a gentlemen that collects and rents out US tanks, and APC. Old Sherman's to newer M-60s. All the guns are spiked and welded. I hear they are not cheap to rent but he has a open field that you can take one out and play. Harley -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 2:12 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Greg, Absolutely and I envy you. Being in the signal corps the limit for me was bandwagon truck (wheel in front) and other larger/smaller vehicles with wheels. I started as communication specialist with Morse, codification and that stuff, but after a transfer the slots for this in the new place was filled. Since I had professional licence for Taxi, Buses and Trucks (financed my studies that way), I did some time on transportation support, when waiting for assignment. Finally I ended up as group leader for quality testing of electronic equipment/material deliveries. I would have loved to try or learn to drive a tank -:). Hakan At 10:42 AM 2/27/2003 -0700, you wrote: - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 01:21 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I'm sure that being able to drive a 62 ton M-1 Abrems, qualifies me to drive a 1 1/2 ton SUV. :-P Greg H. 2. That it is ensured that people who drives them have the necessary special knowledge to do so, by demanding that they have a truck license or similar. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- DVD Rentals with No Late Fees - Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/abvVKB/pEZFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Perhaps many .. but not all Was: SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Yes, I have a huge difficulty with sweeping statements that say ALL (people of my nationality) .. or ALL (people of my religion) ... or ALL (people who were born where I was born). Especially when I *do NOT* act (or look like .. or have an attitude) like all those people are suppose to have. Just irks me. And pisses me when laws/rules/policies are made in response to those people being like that. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Me thinks something got under his skin :-) - Original Message - From: csakima [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Perhaps many .. but not all Was: SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
My post was about advertising and what it really appeals to, and how that affects our lifestyles and purchases. Not only is advertising capable of shaping purchase and lifestyle decisions, but there are limits to individual freedom in any society when it comes to safety and shared resources. Since roads, air, steel, oil, water and hospital beds are shared resources, those who are concerned about resource use and rational transportation choices have every right to question the validity of the SUV as it has been promoted, not as a box of steel on a frame that is actually needed by some people. We have always had trucks. We have not always had trucks in the numbers that they are being used today - a very large proportion of the automotive fleet. Was there some big demographic shift that caused this? No. More people live in cities, fewer have kids, there is more asphalt...so why more trucks? If you wanted to ride a higher horse and wear a bigger hat, nobody cared, but we're sort of past that era, you know? That goes contrary to what is supposed to be great about the US (and Canada). The frontier has gone missing and been replaced by suburbs, for millions of our generation, and we have not come to grips with that reality - we want to avoid it and pretend it did not happen while we weren't looking. But it did. So Curtis, defend your lifestyle, your trip planning and your actions. Fine. But you are off in the fringe area of a clearly defined demographic profile, which ALL profiles possess. I am sure that if we try really hard we can find some advertising that does not appeal to the elements noted, as well - but car and truck ads sure do. An auto executive said it best a few years ago, and was completely sincere and candid in his remarks: If you think the auto business is about selling transportation, you are not going to last long at it (to paraphrase a little) Edward Beggs On Friday, February 28, 2003, at 03:46 PM, csakima wrote: Yes, I have a huge difficulty with sweeping statements that say ALL (people of my nationality) .. or ALL (people of my religion) ... or ALL (people who were born where I was born). Especially when I *do NOT* act (or look like .. or have an attitude) like all those people are suppose to have. Just irks me. And pisses me when laws/rules/policies are made in response to those people being like that. Curtis Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- DVD Rentals with No Late Fees - Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/abvVKB/pEZFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] What's so amazing?? Was: Shock and Yawn
Well, still without going into my entire UN/global conquest theory again I think the eruption of violence IS what everybody wants. With all the resulting violence ... the UN will go up on a pedestal as ... ahem ... the only way to peace. Simply hook your President/Prime Minister under us (the UN) as a senator under our (the UN's) global senate. There ... see(??) ... global peace. With that in mind, I can't see what's so amazing about our President Bush oddly making moves that only seem to stir up the hornet's nest. Especially if that's what he .. indeed ... wants. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Burnett, Liz [EMAIL PROTECTED] In every war that has ever been of magnitude, there is always wide spread destruction and suffering, and mostly to the innocent, not those who should prehaps be taken to task. A full scale attack on Iraq will not rid the world of Saddam - you can be gauranteed that he will be in the safest possible place. It will be the average Iraqi citizen who will be maimed by war, thus perpetuating the general hatred and distrust of the west thoughout the middle east. As a british citizen, I am amazed that our respective governments have got even this far in their quest for blood shed. A hail of bombs is not going to solve the problems in the middle east - and there will always be another Saddam or Bin Laden. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Shock and Yawn
heheheh ... that's funny!! (LOL) I love your analogy! Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank you for this, Liz, and welcome. I daresay, though, there have been some relevant posts on biofuels topics, as well as politics, almost every day though...maybe only a few, but you never know when an absolute gem of a biofuels thought will appear, and we must all be diligent in watching and waiting. A bit like fly fishing while swatting mosquitoes some days...you wonder why you are there, and then Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
Yes, but as I understand it, you're just working your turbo harder. Don't know what the long term effects will be, but I decided against the Upsolute when I got some information on how it works its magic. You certainly won't break your car in the short term, it's long term that is uncertain. And note, I only said uncertain. Time will tell; I just decided to let others be the guinea pigs. Some are quite obviously enjoying it... Perry - Original Message - From: Ryan Morgan, Aerials Express [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 2:10 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I second that, Thor. I also have a VW Golf TDI. You've seen www.tdiclub.com right? Do yourself a favor and go and get an Upsolute chip. My mileage increased, and the car feels like a Porsche. :) Ryan Morgan Tempe, AZ -Original Message- From: Thor Skov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:24 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears --- Domenick V. Amato wrote: What is luxo junk to one is comfort and safety to another. The general public votes with its pocket book for SUVs and pickup trucks. Fifty million Americans can't be politically incorrect. Dom Amato Hello Don, By that logic, slavery wasn't bad. Neither was Hitler (I mean, 80 million? Germans can't be wrong). But, Don, you're absolutely correct that the general public does vote for SUVs with their pocketbook. The question is, why? Your implied answer to that question seems to be because they know what's best for them. That's possible. It is also possible that people are duped by advertising, have few fuel efficient automobile choices, and often do not make rational economic choices. I've read (and though I can't provide a reference, I'm sure someone else on this list can) that SUVs are the most profitable cars for automakers, which is why they push them so hard. It's a fact that SUVs are a loophole around CAFE standards. People have latched onto them, for sure, but don't try to tell me that the SUV phenomenon was not driven to a great degree by advertising. Automakers love to claim that they just build what people want, but they have a strong hand in creating those wants. Fact: automakers didn't want to have to invest in the research to design fuel efficient engines, make the commitment to retool factories. It was easier to take a truck frame and build a car on it. Europeans have fuel efficient cars. Why don't we? When I went to look for a fuel efficient car my choices were incredibly limited - Honda Insight, Honda Civic, Ford Focus, Toyota Prius, Toyota Corolla, and the VW TDI. I opted for the VW Golf because it was cheaper than the Insight and Prius (as well as more available, was the only hatchback, could burn biodiesel, was more comfortable than the Fords, seemed better engineered and had better styling, and was a hatchback. Also, I like the way a european car drives, compared to a japanese. Now, I love my Golf, but I was lucky to find a model that I indeed did like from among the paucity of choices. I honestly think that American values are messed up--people really do love big cars, and small cars with big engines. It's about power power power, and yet there is no place to use this power. People want cars that can go 140 mph, but will never drive them faster than half that. Doesn't seem rational to me. I remember longing for a Toyota SR5 4WD pickup when I was in high school (just like the one in Back to the Future), but hey, I GREW UP! Fact: SUVs are not the safest cars out there; minivans are, and they have more room, get better mileage, and cost less than SUVs. But minivans are not cool which tells me that people are thinking about styling and image (the advertising influence) and not about economics or practicality. Also, most people are bent on ownership versus receiving a flow of services from an automobile. Let me explain. I live in Seattle, where it seems that every other vehicle is an SUV or a truck. People insist they need a 4wd vehicle. But we have mild winters, with little snow to speak of, and the one time a year it does snow you stay at home since Seattle is full of hills and people here don't know how to drive in snow anyway. So 2 inches shuts everything down. Now a lot of people I know who own SUVs claim that they need them to go to the mountains, to go skiing, etc etc. However, most ski areas you can get to just fine with a front wheel drive car. And who's really going to take a $55,000 Escalade or Navigator or Mercedes off-road? But let's assume that they do indeed go somewhere where an *only* an SUV can go. How often is that? 2, 3 times a year at most? So they purchase an SUV ostensibly for those rare occasions, and the other 355
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1403
Hello All, Found 55 gallons of Metanol for only $125+tax and barrell deposit. = Bill Melley Kitchin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 602-999-7606 __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- DVD Rentals with No Late Fees - Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/abvVKB/pEZFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
generalizations RE: [biofuel] Perhaps many .. but not all
The same thing bothers me about ALL Americans _ I don't care if the subject someone is writing about is on topic, they shouldn't include generalizations either way. 1. SUVs do not project the beliefs of all Americans. 2. Just because some/most/all of spam comes from the US does not mean it projects the beliefs of all Americans. 3. Just because Bush wants to go to war and some people support him doesn't mean it projects the beliefs of all Americans. If a person wants to make a political statement: FINE. But do NOT make sweeping generalizations that serve no purpose. 96.5% of people agree with me on this. Do your research if you want to say something offensive. Thank you, that was me venting for the year. --- Martin Klingensmith nnytech.net infoarchive.net -Original Message- From: csakima [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 5:59 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Perhaps many .. but not all Was: SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Would everyone PLEASE stop making these sweeping generalizations!! PLEASE?? I talk about SUV's ... and everyone tells me to shut up about it. So I do. Now another silly ALL SUV OWNERS ARE AFTER THE POWER ... ALL SUV OWNERS ARE AFTER THE PRESTIGE ALL SUV OWNERS . ... Comes out of the woodworks. Sheesh!! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- DVD Rentals with No Late Fees - Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/abvVKB/pEZFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] biodiesel at the pump in San Jose CA
Hello, The Bay Area just got a 'second' B100 pump- in San Jose (the first one in the area is at Olympian fueling station in SF for about 70cents a gallon more than the new pump). They will be selling fuel made by Biodiesel Industries (a producer from Nevada, and I think the fuel is recycled-content) The info: Western States Oil at 1790 S. 10th St. in San Jose B100 for sale at $2.71 a gallon cash price, with a five cent per gallon charge to credit cards. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- New Yahoo! Mail Plus. More flexibility. More control. More power. Get POP access, more storage, more filters, and more. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Hcb0iA/P.iFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: generalizations RE: [biofuel] Perhaps many .. but not all
Whew!!! Well, I guess we should just all be thankful we weren't born with red hair, black skin, Jewish, Hispanic, Polish, Armenian, blonde, Native American, Italian, Iranian, Scandanavian or anything else.you know they're all alike. - Original Message - From: Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 9:52 PM Subject: generalizations RE: [biofuel] Perhaps many .. but not all The same thing bothers me about ALL Americans _ I don't care if the subject someone is writing about is on topic, they shouldn't include generalizations either way. 1. SUVs do not project the beliefs of all Americans. 2. Just because some/most/all of spam comes from the US does not mean it projects the beliefs of all Americans. 3. Just because Bush wants to go to war and some people support him doesn't mean it projects the beliefs of all Americans. If a person wants to make a political statement: FINE. But do NOT make sweeping generalizations that serve no purpose. 96.5% of people agree with me on this. Do your research if you want to say something offensive. Thank you, that was me venting for the year. --- Martin Klingensmith nnytech.net infoarchive.net -Original Message- From: csakima [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 5:59 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Perhaps many .. but not all Was: SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Would everyone PLEASE stop making these sweeping generalizations!! PLEASE?? I talk about SUV's ... and everyone tells me to shut up about it. So I do. Now another silly ALL SUV OWNERS ARE AFTER THE POWER ... ALL SUV OWNERS ARE AFTER THE PRESTIGE ALL SUV OWNERS . ... Comes out of the woodworks. Sheesh!! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- New Yahoo! Mail Plus. More flexibility. More control. More power. Get POP access, more storage, more filters, and more. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Hcb0iA/P.iFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Looking for tests to indicate quality of Methanol
Group, I am looking for methods of analysis to indicate the water content of Methanol. I would like to do this in the field as it were. I have found several methods of detecting the occurence of Methyl Alcohol in Ethyl. So these tests are aimed at the foddstuffs industry rather than the quality of Methanol as being technical grade - the all desireable 98.5%. The only contaminants I will be looking for is Ethanol and Water. I don't believe there will be any other organic contaminants Specific gravity Methyl is 0.7924 Water is 1. Ethanol is 0.816 Fractional distallation Boiling Point of Methanol is 115 C Water is of course 100 C Ethanol is 78 C Any other ideas? Mark __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs Online-No late fees! Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/bbvVKB/oEZFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: generalizations RE: [biofuel] Perhaps many .. but not all
At 11:06 PM 2/28/2003 -0500, you wrote: Well, I guess we should just all be thankful we weren't born with red hair, black skin, Jewish, Hispanic, Polish, Armenian, blonde, Native American, Italian, Iranian, Scandanavian or anything else.you know they're all alike. Yeah, we are all alike! :-) - Original Message - From: Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 9:52 PM Subject: generalizations RE: [biofuel] Perhaps many .. but not all The same thing bothers me about ALL Americans _ I don't care if the subject someone is writing about is on topic, they shouldn't include generalizations either way. 1. SUVs do not project the beliefs of all Americans. 2. Just because some/most/all of spam comes from the US does not mean it projects the beliefs of all Americans. 3. Just because Bush wants to go to war and some people support him doesn't mean it projects the beliefs of all Americans. If a person wants to make a political statement: FINE. But do NOT make sweeping generalizations that serve no purpose. 96.5% of people agree with me on this. Do your research if you want to say something offensive. Thank you, that was me venting for the year. --- Martin Klingensmith nnytech.net infoarchive.net -Original Message- From: csakima [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 5:59 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Perhaps many .. but not all Was: SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Would everyone PLEASE stop making these sweeping generalizations!! PLEASE?? I talk about SUV's ... and everyone tells me to shut up about it. So I do. Now another silly ALL SUV OWNERS ARE AFTER THE POWER ... ALL SUV OWNERS ARE AFTER THE PRESTIGE ALL SUV OWNERS . ... Comes out of the woodworks. Sheesh!! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- New Yahoo! Mail Plus. More flexibility. More control. More power. Get POP access, more storage, more filters, and more. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Hcb0iA/P.iFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Or maybe just one Was: Perhaps many .. but not all
No. That's not what I was saying. Ed On Friday, February 28, 2003, at 06:31 PM, csakima wrote: H I do not like what you're telling me. You seem to be saying that America consists of 2.5 Billion Americans all sticking middle-fingers ... all acting like assholes in their SUV's ... all concerned about their high and mighty EGO'S .. irresponsibly tossing beer cans . . and then there's me. Or the few like me ... of which you can count on one hand. You know, the courteous ... and the one(s) that care. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] My post was about advertising and what it really appeals to, and how that affects our lifestyles and purchases. -snip--- So Curtis, defend your lifestyle, your trip planning and your actions. Fine. But you are off in the fringe area of a clearly defined demographic profile, which ALL profiles possess. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- New Yahoo! Mail Plus. More flexibility. More control. More power. Get POP access, more storage, more filters, and more. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Hcb0iA/P.iFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM - ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- DVD Rentals with No Late Fees - Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/abvVKB/pEZFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Or maybe just one Was: Perhaps many .. but not all
H I do not like what you're telling me. You seem to be saying that America consists of 2.5 Billion Americans all sticking middle-fingers ... all acting like assholes in their SUV's ... all concerned about their high and mighty EGO'S .. irresponsibly tossing beer cans . . and then there's me. Or the few like me ... of which you can count on one hand. You know, the courteous ... and the one(s) that care. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL Hey, Curtis, simmer down! LOL! We've been through all this, eh? Someone once said the way to make a success of marriage is Don't say 'never' or 'always'. Ed isn't saying all, and re SUVs, you know it's true of most. What you say above of Americans, I don't think any of us here, Americans or not, believes that - not all, I'd say not even most, not by a long way. But don't underestimate the power of advertising ($100 billion a year in the US) and PR ($35 billion a year in the US) (and that's just the tip of the iceberg) to muddle people into doing what's not good for them, nor for each other, nor for their communities, for their country, for their environment, for the world. It can be countered though, there are good counter initiatives hard at work, and in very many cases it's quite easy, because nearly everybody has a good heart, loads of goodwill, and doesn't really want to be an AH. . and then there's me. Or the few like me ... of which you can count on one hand. You know, the courteous ... and the one(s) that care. That's right, there's you, but you're not alone at all, many other people really care, and most others do too, if they only realized it. So cheer up, put a grin on your ugly mug, FCOL. :-) Regards Keith - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] My post was about advertising and what it really appeals to, and how that affects our lifestyles and purchases. -snip--- So Curtis, defend your lifestyle, your trip planning and your actions. Fine. But you are off in the fringe area of a clearly defined demographic profile, which ALL profiles possess. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- DVD Rentals with No Late Fees - Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/abvVKB/pEZFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Prefilter for fuel filter
Hello, I will be putting my first tank of homemade BD to the test when it warms up here a little. My car has 435k km on it, so it will be a little dirty. I was wondering if anybody knows of a prefilter you can get so that you don't have to keep replacing fuel filters for the first month. I have a 93 VW jetta, but I would think a piece like this would work in any car. ANy ideas? Also, thanks to everybody who has helped me with ideas on where to find supplies:) Dan __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- New Yahoo! Mail Plus. More flexibility. More control. More power. Get POP access, more storage, more filters, and more. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Hcb0iA/P.iFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] HOW TO MODIFY YOUR CAR TO RUN ON ALCOHOL FUEL, by Roger Lippman
Book online http://terrasol.home.igc.org/alky/alky.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- DVD Rentals with No Late Fees - Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/abvVKB/pEZFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: generalizations RE: [biofuel] Perhaps many .. but not all
Whew!!! Well, I guess we should just all be thankful we weren't born with red hair, black skin, Jewish, Hispanic, Polish, Armenian, blonde, Native American, Italian, Iranian, Scandanavian or anything else.you know they're all alike. I don't think so cuz somes got hair an some don't. Somes young and others ain't. Somes walk others bike or use public transportation. Frankly, I think its the economy stu*** or that there Stu***UV business tax break. In fact, somes got more money to burn then cents or maybe they just needs one cuz they gots their reasons. __ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- DVD Rentals with No Late Fees - Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/abvVKB/pEZFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: generalizations RE: [biofuel] Perhaps many .. but not all
The same thing bothers me about ALL Americans _ I don't care if the subject someone is writing about is on topic, they shouldn't include generalizations either way. But has anybody done that? I don't think anybody said that. I think people - the list, members, us, whatever - were accused of saying it, but I don't think it happened. Ed's message was satirical, and it did not include the word all, as Curtis claims. Take your own advice Martin, check it out. What I've noticed from the non-Americans here posting on these issues, including myself, is a lot of concern NOT to say ALL Americans, and to explain why not. Worldwide, it's very noticeable that in practice people distinguish between America (the government and its foreign and domestic policies - Washington) and Americans - even when people have suffered as a result of US action they generally like and welcome individual Americans. Like this, from a US diplomat stationed in Athens: Even here in Greece, purported hotbed of European anti-Americanism, we have more and closer friends than the American newspaper reader can possibly imagine. Even when they complain about American arrogance, Greeks know that the world is a difficult and dangerous place, and they want a strong international system, with the U.S. and EU in close partnership. From: U.S. Diplomat's Letter of Resignation http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/27/international/27WEB-TNAT.html?ex=104 7447483ei=1en=c49116966b23e15e So no sweeping generalizations. But it's nonetheless true to say that Americans are only 4% of the world's population but they use 25% of the world's energy and generate more than 33% of the world's greenhouse gas emissions. BUT, when I say things like that (many others do too, including Americans) I usually include the other OECD countries - Australia comes pretty close, the rest (France, Germany, Japan) use about half the amount of energy per capita that Americans do, for the same per capita productivity, but that's still WAY too much, wildly more than their equitable share. These are not sweeping statements. 1. SUVs do not project the beliefs of all Americans. 2. Just because some/most/all of spam comes from the US does not mean it projects the beliefs of all Americans. 3. Just because Bush wants to go to war and some people support him doesn't mean it projects the beliefs of all Americans. Quite right - but I don't think anyone has claimed or would claim otherwise. If a person wants to make a political statement: FINE. But do NOT make sweeping generalizations that serve no purpose. 96.5% of people agree with me on this. Do your research if you want to say something offensive. Thank you, that was me venting for the year. Damn, Martin, don't be so rough on yourself - it's only March! Best Keith --- Martin Klingensmith nnytech.net infoarchive.net -Original Message- From: csakima [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 5:59 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Perhaps many .. but not all Was: SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears Would everyone PLEASE stop making these sweeping generalizations!! PLEASE?? I talk about SUV's ... and everyone tells me to shut up about it. So I do. Now another silly ALL SUV OWNERS ARE AFTER THE POWER ... ALL SUV OWNERS ARE AFTER THE PRESTIGE ALL SUV OWNERS . ... Comes out of the woodworks. Sheesh!! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- New Yahoo! Mail Plus. More flexibility. More control. More power. Get POP access, more storage, more filters, and more. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Hcb0iA/P.iFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears
and they make almost no sound, compaired to the m60. greg m -Original Message- From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 28, 2003 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears A tank, very much like the kind being sent to the gulf. The main difference is the ones being sent to the gulf are the advanced model and have a 120 mm main gun, a over pressure NBC system, and a few more bells and whistles. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Perry Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 17:52 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears OK, I'll bite: What the heck is a 62 ton M-1 Abrems? Perry - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 01:21 Subject: Re: [biofuel] SUV question - Silk Purses out of Sows Ears I'm sure that being able to drive a 62 ton M-1 Abrems, qualifies me to drive a 1 1/2 ton SUV. :-P Greg H. 2. That it is ensured that people who drives them have the necessary special knowledge to do so, by demanding that they have a truck license or similar. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
