date:20030320


Keith:  I listened to an interview on Tom Valentine's radio show discuss the 
plant which was brought to Missouri.  It was years ago, and I cannot give the 
nane of the man.  It was at least an hour of discussion about the history, 
quality of fuel, cost, and other aspects.

Ed B
  - Original Message - 
  From: Keith Addison 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 10:07 PM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS 
INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!


  >At the time of the Second World War, German technology was producing 
  >gasoline from coal.  An entire factory was brought from Germany, and 
  >assembled in Missouri.  It made gasoline at a cost of 5 cents a 
  >gallon.  It was dismantled and the technology was hidden away.
  >
  >Ed B

  Not so. This is what happened - posted here previously by a list member:

  > "One of our oldest scientists, now 84 yrs. old, was responsible for 
  >going into Germany post WWII and uncovering the remains of Hitler's 
  >synthetic fuels machine which had been bombed out. I'm speaking of 
  >Fischer-Tropsch oily-based paraffins which are hydrocracked down 
  >into shorter chains for synthetic gasoline, jet fuel and diesel. He 
  >brought back some of the original German scientists who'd perfected 
  >this technology which utilized coarse, low-grade brown German coal 
  >as feedstock. Three times he tried to start-up an American version 
  >of synthetic hydrocarbon fuels in the GTL arena and was blocked. As 
  >the highest ranking American energy technologist post WWII, he 
  >couldn't figure this out. It was over 20 years later that he 
  >realized that the late John Rockefeller of Standard Oil [Exxon] had 
  >been the politic behind the scenes, making sure that his new, 
  >alternative fuel ideas did not materialize. This scientist then took 
  >his blueprints for the first major GTL project and gave them to 
  >Sasol who built his first coal gasification device back in 1953 and 
  >it is still operating today. Sasol from South Africa is the oldest 
  >synthetic fuels producer globally."

  Best wishes

  Keith


  > >Yes, hydrogen from coal is the only fossil alternative. It will take you
  > >20 to 30 years to get to this. Bush loves this, since he probably been
  > >briefed about the seriousness of today's situation. He does not explain
  > >it to the American people, like both Carter and Nixon tried to do. Things
  > >have not got better since then, on the contrary.


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
  ADVERTISEMENT
 
   
   

  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

  Biofuels list archives:
  http://archive.nnytech.net/

  Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
  To unsubscribe, send an email to:
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Biofuel] Crude Oil Price

I predict that the price has not really gone down-It just backed up to get a 
good run at a leap towards the top.

Ed B- Original Message - 
  From: MH 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 10:36 PM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Crude Oil Price

  I was looking at the one year chart on
  Light Sweet Crude Oil Apr 2003 (NYMEX:CLJ3)
  http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYMEX_CLJ3&v=d12
  with a report below chart.  

  Quite a steep drop the past few days.
  Basically gone from $38 barrel to $30   

  ___

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 

  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

  Biofuels list archives:
  http://archive.nnytech.net/

  Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
  To unsubscribe, send an email to:
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] A third option - USA versus Europe.[long]


On Thu, 20 Mar 2003 04:36 pm, kirk wrote:
> My gut feel is in the US it will hit the fan this summer. Saddam probably
> will be a quick victory but I think a backlash will come some months later.
>
> Hope I am wrong.

this came accross my desk from another list... quoted lock stock and barrel of 
oil...  first time I have read something that vaguely ties together... Not 
saying it is right, because all conspiracy theories look right from a certain 
angle... but hopefully it will raise more questions than it answers... or do  
ean that the other way around...

> IT'S NOT ABOUT OIL OR IRAQ.
> IT'S ABOUT THE US AND EUROPE
> GOING HEAD-TO-HEAD ON WORLD ECONOMIC DOMINANCE.
> By Geoffrey Heard
> Melbourne, Australia
>
> Summary: Why is George Bush so hell bent on war with Iraq? Why does
> his administration reject every positive Iraqi move? It all makes
> sense when you consider the economic implications for the USA of not
> going to war with Iraq. The war in Iraq is actually the US and Europe
> going head to head on economic leadership of the world.
>
> America's Bush administration has been caught in outright lies, gross
> exaggerations and incredible inaccuracies as it trotted out its
> litany of paper thin excuses for making war on Iraq. Along with its
> two supporters, Britain and Australia, it has shifted its ground and
> reversed its position with a barefaced contempt for its audience. It
> has manipulated information, deceived by commission and omission and
> frantically "bought" UN votes with billion dollar bribes.
>
> Faced with the failure of gaining UN Security Council support for
> invading Iraq, the USA has threatened to invade without
> authorisation. It would act in breach of the UN's very constitution
> to allegedly enforced UN resolutions.
>
> It is plain bizarre. Where does this desperation for war come from?
>
> There are many things driving President Bush and his administration
> to invade Iraq, unseat Saddam Hussein and take over the country. But
> the biggest one is hidden and very, very simple. It is about the
> currency used to trade oil and consequently, who will dominate the
> world economically, in the foreseeable future -- the USA or the
> European Union.
>
> Iraq is a European Union beachhead in that confrontation. America had
> a monopoly on the oil trade, with the US dollar being the fiat
> currency, but Iraq broke ranks in 1999, started to trade oil in the
> EU's euros, and profited. If America invades Iraq and takes over, it
> will hurl the EU and its euro back into the sea and make America's
> position as the dominant economic power in the world all but
> impregnable.
>
> It is the biggest grab for world power in modern times.
>
> America's allies in the invasion, Britain and Australia, are betting
> America will win and that they will get some trickle-down benefits
> for jumping on to the US bandwagon.
>
> France and Germany are the spearhead of the European force -- Russia
> would like to go European but possibly can still be bought off.
>
> Presumably, China would like to see the Europeans build a share of
> international trade currency ownership at this point while it
> continues to grow its international trading presence to the point
> where it, too, can share the leadership rewards.
>
> DEBATE BUILDING ON THE INTERNET
>
> Oddly, little or nothing is appearing in the general media about this
> issue, although key people are becoming aware of it -- note the
> recent slide in the value of the US dollar. Are traders afraid of
> war? They are more likely to be afraid there will not be war.
>
> But despite the silence in the general media, a major world
> discussion is developing around this issue, particularly on the
> internet. Among the many articles: Henry Liu, in the 'Asia Times'
> last June, it has been a hot topic on the Feasta forum, an
> Irish-based group exploring sustainable economics, and W. Clark's
> "The Real Reasons for the Upcoming War with Iraq: A Macroeconomic and
> Geostrategic Analysis of the Unspoken Truth" has been published by
> the 'Sierra Times', 'Indymedia.org', and 'ratical.org'.
>
> This debate is not about whether America would suffer from losing the
> US dollar monopoly on oil trading -- that is a given -- rather it is
> about exactly how hard the USA would be hit. The smart money seems to
> be saying the impact would be in the range from severe to
> catastrophic. The USA could collapse economically.
>
> OIL DOLLARS
>
> The key to it all is the fiat currency for trading oil.
>
> Under an OPEC agreement, all oil has been traded in US dollars since
> 1971 (after the dropping of the gold standard) which makes the US
> dollar the de facto major international trading currency. If other
> nations have to hoard dollars to buy oil, then they want to use that
> hoard for other trading too. This fact gives America a huge trading
> advantage and helps make it the dominant economy in the world.
>
> As an economic bloc, the European Union is the only challenge

Re: [Biofuel] Crude Oil Price


On Thu, 20 Mar 2003 04:22 pm, murdoch wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 22:36:29 -0600, you wrote:
> > I was looking at the one year chart on
> > Light Sweet Crude Oil Apr 2003 (NYMEX:CLJ3)
> > http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYMEX_CLJ3&v=d12
> > with a report below chart.
> >
> > Quite a steep drop the past few days.
> > Basically gone from $38 barrel to $30
>
> I think it's more or less analagous to what happened in the first Gulf
> War.  Once the uncertainty was removed, the price dropped.  I don't
> know what would make it go back up, because you have a lot of push
> behind that drop.  The "spiggots" have been open for some days or
> weeks now.  However, a destruction of the oil fields I suppose could
> make things interesting oil-price-wise.

so are we caught between a rock and a hard place here? if oil prices go up, 
biodiesel becomes viable. but the economy goes bad.  Prices go down, 
biodiesel remains the domain of a few religious zealots...

personally I'd like to see tripple ledger accounting enacted in teh energy 
industry... 

-- 
Dr Paul van den Bergen
Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures
caia.swin.edu.au
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
IM:bulwynkl2002
It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one.


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[biofuel] Great Plains Ethanol grand opening




  Community comes together to celebrate Great Plains Ethanol grand
opening
  By Kelli Bultena
  Nearly 2000 people came out to
  welcome Great Plains Ethanol and celebrate the ribbon cutting of the
40 million gallon ethanol plant.
  Saturday was a perfect day for the event, with temperatures nearly
60¡.
  The morning began with tours of the plant and lunch served by the
Chancellor Fire Department. The Department served 1,300 people.
  Along with the pork sandwiches and beans served by the fire
department, cookies were furnished by the Chancellor Community Club.
Beverages and cotton candy were also supplied by Great Plains Ethanol.





  At 12:30 p.m. the ethanol-powered Vanguard Squadron flew over the
ethanol plant. The program began at 1 p.m. with the national anthem sung by
Nick Poppens and Emily Olson.
  Speakers at the afternoon program included Jim Woster; Darrin Ihnen,
President of the Great Plains Ethanol Board; Erik Nelson of Senator Tim
Johnson's Office; Stephanie DeVitt of Tom Dashle's Office; Trevor Guthmiller
of American Coalition for Ethanol; Dennis Daugaard, Lieutenant Governor; Bob
Dinneen of the Renewable Fuels Association; Representative William Janklow;
Rick Serie, General Manager of Great Plains Ethanol and Jeff Broin of Broin
and Associates.
  Ihnen congratulated and thanked the Chancellor Fire Department and
those in attendance for sharing this special day.
  A message that was repeatedly heard was that of America's need for
energy independence. Several of the speakers spoke about the legislation in
progress that would benefit the ethanol industry.
  Dinneen stated that Great Plains Ethanol is the 70th plant in
operation in the United States. He went on to say that South Dakota is the
capital of the world in ethanol development.
  Dinneen said, "You are not just opening an ethanol plant, you are
providing a key to air quality and water quality improvement across the
country."
  He also spoke about the security benefits of this plant, "With ethanol
produced at this plant we don't need his [Saddam Hussein's] oil. We can
invest at home, in our farmers and create our own economic security."
  Janklow reiterated those remarks stating the urgency for energy
security at home. Janklow said, "In the last four months this nation
purchased 1.6 billion dollars worth of oil from Iraq. Saddam has taken that
money and is buying and manufacturing the bullets and the weapons he will
use to kill American men and women in the armed forces. It is a felony to
trade with the enemy during wartime. And we are all guilty of it."
  Janklow went on to say it is our responsibility to continue to support
ethanol. He said, "We can't build enough plants like this."
  Serie, Great Plains Manager, thanked everyone who came out for the
event. Serie introduced the employees at Great Plains Ethanol and said,
"This is the finest team in the ethanol industry. And we are all proud to
work at Great Plains Ethanol."
  He went on to say, "It was a huge project to build a plant of this
size and is a huge project to get it operating."
  Broin also congratulated those involved and said the plant was the
most efficient of its kind.
  The tours began at 11:00 a.m. and continued throughout the day until
4:00 p.m. Tour guides directed groups through the facility, beginning with
grains
  receiving. The local corn supply for the plant is brought in by truck,
the plant can receive about 30 trucks an hour. The unloading cycle is only a
six minute process.
  Employees also explained the different uses of the tanks and what they
hold. Visitors were allowed to see the control room; one engineer said there
were 3,200 control points throughout the plant.
  The next stop on the tour was the dryers. Employees elaborated on the
dual-dryer system.
  Following that visitors, were shown where the fermentation takes
place. It was explained that once all of the ingredients were added it would
take 60 hours to ferment and then would be pumped to the beer well.
  The plant is fully automated. For the cooling process, heat exchangers
take heat out to the cooling tower and cool and evaporate the water. It was
noted that what comes out of the stack is steam and not smoke.
  The amount of water used at the plant is astounding, 300 gallons a
minute. This water is recycled throughout most of the process. A filter
systems cleans well water, the water is used to produce steam. The cooling
tower is capable of pumping 23,000 gallons per minute.
  The evaporator was another stop on the tour. Frank Blain, of Broin and
Associates, explained the process of how they evaporate water from thin
stillage. He spoke about the coproduct of ethanol used for high quality
livestock feed.
  From there the visitors learned about distillation. The tour concluded
with brief information about the thermal oxidizer/boiler. The guide
explained it as the best available co

Re: [biofuel] are you ready for peace?


silly statistics that don't take total population numbers into
consideration. bad conclusions based on incomplete data.

Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
http://www.green-trust.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "paul van den bergen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] are you ready for peace?


> On Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:30 am, Kim & Garth Travis wrote:
> > Thanks for responding with encouraging words, Keith.
> >
> > I am an old hippie, and have always believed in peace, love and
> > brotherhood.  When we moved to the deep south, in Texas, some people
> > called us 'N' lovers, if you know what I mean.  I just smiled and told
> > them we are all God's children.
> >
> > It seems like the tolerance and welcome of differing peoples has really
> > faded in North America.  Maybe it is just that the hatred of something
> > different is louder than it used to be, but no more people are involved
> > than in the old days.  I hope.
> >
> > Bright Blessings,
> > Kim
>
> has anyone here seen "Bowling for Columbine"? (I know - really OT now...)
> IMHO, it is worth it.  Mike Moore can be a little preachy at times, but in
> this case it works kinda well.  Really opened my eyes.
>
> --
> Dr Paul van den Bergen
> Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures
> caia.swin.edu.au
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> IM:bulwynkl2002
> It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one.
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments


If you listened to what he had to say, maybe you'd realize it's not a whim,
and the lights are not going out. No, probably not.

You missed a good one.


Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
http://www.green-trust.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 9:58 PM
Subject: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments


> El presidente de USA is to make a public address in shortly after 10:00 PM
Eastern Standard Time this evening. That's only a few minutes from now.
>
> Not that I have any desire to hear a word that he has to say, but it would
be of value to know exactly when the lights get turned out and how many
souls are lost to his whim.
>
> Todd Swearingen
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Two lists - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1449


Hello Ted

First, please change the subject header when you auto-respond in 
"Digest" mode - nobody's going to be too moved by a header saying Re: 
[biofuel] Digest Number 1449, and it adds a measure of 
meaninglessness to archive searches. Thanks!

>I'm new to the group, so offer my opinion respectfully, recognizing that
>this discussion has been going on for a long time & it's not my party.

For which thankyou, that's much appreciated.

>I'm about to unsubscribe because I don't have time to sift through all the
>political discussions to find some nugget about how to get started with
>biodiesel.

Of course that's your choice. There are better ways of handling it 
though - please see:
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=21700&list=BIOFUEL

>After years of intention I've found a beautiful old Merc and a Merc mechanic
>who's also excited about bio-d. My sons are way excited about it. So now
>it's just a matter of picking from the many flavors of bio-d & going for it.
>
>I'm here because I want to promote biodiesel as a way to take the pressure
>off the Middle East--to do the right thing by Mother Earth--to do my small
>part to carry out Dr Diesel's dream. Actually, I just want to use biodiesel
>in my car because sometimes when I put gas in my car I think of it as the
>blood of the innocent people in the oil-rich countries who are pawns in this
>chessgame of greed and power and cheap gas. We can opine endlessly, but the
>game is played in venues we can't enter & for reasons we can't fathom. (If
>we could, we wouldn't be jawboning here.)

That's not so - you're saying individuals are helpless and useless. 
Individuals are very far from helpless and useless. Democracy might 
indeed be something of a sham, a token extended on sufference, but 
people are not powerless, nor incapable of fathoming what their 
"betters" might be up to. "If you think you are too small to make a 
difference, try sleeping with a mosquito." - the Dalai Lama

And check this out, if you haven't already:
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=22483&list=BIOFUEL

You don't need to go beyond immediate biofuels issues to know it's 
true - a large and rapidly growing band of backyard guerrillas are 
already making a difference, and to much more than just fossil-fuel 
use (by not using it): that you can be energy-independent is a real 
eye-opener, a most empowering thing to know. Which is one reason we 
don't limit discussions here - which is what you're complaining about.

>I can engage in endless political discussions about the war in hundreds of
>forums on the web & elsewhere. But this is one of a handful of foarums where
>I can learn about biodiesel from people who are ahead of me on the path.

Why either/or, Ted? There's nothing whatsoever to stop you doing 
both, as most of us here do - the one does not exclude the other, 
even if you don't see them as part and parcel of each other, as many 
do:

"Political discussion is VITAL to the future of biofuels."
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=21715&list=BIOFUEL

(No, that wasn't me...)

>Call me simple, but I believe that all the words ever spoken in this forum
>don't equal the power of one person switching from gas to biodiesel & then
>influencing another person to do so.

But that's just what all the words ever spoken in this forum 
accomplish - after three years, it's impossible to say how many 
people are making their own biofuels because of this forum and the 
resources associated with it, but it's certainly one hell of a lot, 
all over the world, and on many different scales. Why do you see the 
two things as in conflict? They're complementary. This was one 
comment:

"I just want to say how important what you all are doing here is. 
Closed-system fuel production, on a local or small regional scale, 
tied to local resources, using accessible technologies, and dependent 
on entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information 
exchange - it's AWESOME. Keep up the good work everyone, before the 
planet fries."

>If a demand is created for bio-d, it
>will be available.
>
>I live in Denver & had no idea Boulder was such a hotbed of bio-d innovation
>until I did a web search. It's one of those hair-prickling "coincidences"
>that  I found the car & the mechanic the weekend before the First
>International Biodiesel Day & the week before Dr D's birthday. I'd be in
>Boulder if it weren't for the 24" of snow in my long driveway.
>
>What if there were 2 lists--one to discuss how to use & procure biodiesel &
>another the political implications of biodiesel? I'd stay with the former.

There are two lists, one for general biofuels issues - this one - and 
one for businesses, lots of cross-membership and cross-posting, and 
that's enough. IMO it makes no sense to split up what's a large and 
wide-ranging issue into false divisions. After all, as I keep saying, 
there are people here from all over the world, from more than a 
hundred countries, many different cultures, who

[biofuel] Fwd: Power Crops for the Americas


>Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:48:08 -0500
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>From: "F.O. Licht" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Power Crops for the Americas
>
>POWER CROPS FOR THE AMERICAS
>
> April 28-29,  2003, Hotel Inter-Continental Miami, USA
>
>
>The Clean Fuels Development Coalition and F.O. Licht
>announce the second annual conference on:
>POWER CROPS FOR THE AMERICAS
>The role of sugar crops, grains, and ligno-cellulosics
>in the emerging biofuels economy of the Americas
>
>
>SPEAKERS INCLUDE:
>
>David Garman, U.S. Department of Energy
>
> Douglas Durante, Clean Fuels Development
>Coalition, USA
>
>Christoph Berg, F.O. Licht, Germany
>
>Jeffrey Tuite, ED&F Man Alcohols, USA
>
>Hosein Shapouri, U.S. Department of Agriculture
>
>Alvaro Martnez Salvo, Compaa Licorera de Nicaragua
>
>Carlos Gonzales, ANDESA, Peru
>
>Phil Madson, Katzen International, USA
>
>Todd Sneller, Nebraska Ethanol Board, USA
>
>Bibb Swain, Delta-Corporation, USA
>
>Robert A Harris, Public Power Institute, USA
>
>Rob Vierhout, Vierhout Consulting, Belgium
>
>HIGHLIGHTS:
>
>US energy policy and the impact on ethanol
>
>Brazil's strategy for the world fuel ethanol market
>
>New feedstocks for ethanol production
>
>The fuel ethanol market in the Americas
>
>Fuel ethanol production in the Caribbean
>
>Fuel ethanol programmes in Latin America
>
>Developments in ethanol production technology
>
>The US Biobased Products Initiative
>
>The latest in feedstock conversion technology
>
>The EU: An export market for American ethanol?
>
>
>
>Last year, your colleagues from The US Departments of Energy and 
>Agriculture, General Motors, UNICA, Katzen International, ED & F 
>Man, The California Department of Agriculture, The European Union, 
>Chief Ethanol Fuels, Genencor, Novozymes and many others made this 
>unique event a great success.
>
>Please plan to join us this year on April 28
>
>Organised by:  
>
>a-showEvent-id=20001009891.html>Register now or complete the enquiry 
>form
>to receive a pdf of the conference programme
>
>and:  
>
>Forward this 
>email to a friend or colleague
>
>
>
>JOIN US THIS YEAR AT POWER CROPS FOR THE AMERICAS!
>
>
>Lindsey Sumpter
>Product Group Manager
>F.O. Licht
>Tel: +44 (0) 1892 533 813
>Fax: +44 (0) 1892 544 895
>E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>www.agra-net.com
>
>-
>If you would prefer not to receive further messages from this sender:
>1. Click on the Reply button.
>2. Replace the Subject field with the word REMOVE.
>3. Click the Send button.
>You will receive one additional e-mail message confirming your removal.


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments

2003-03-20 Thread Appal Energy


No Steve, I didn't miss anything. Not the announcement nor the foundation of
sand that he has built his house on over the last six months, nor his utter
disregard for the country that he swore to serve.

He's a near sighted, impatient ass who can't see the benefit of letting the
full weight of global resources come to bear on a situation. He's boxed not
only himself into a corner with his impatience but an entire country.

He's wreckless and dangerous on numerous fronts, whether it be environment,
domestic construction or global destruction.

No. I didn't miss anything.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: "Steve Spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 7:21 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments


> If you listened to what he had to say, maybe you'd realize it's not a
whim,
> and the lights are not going out. No, probably not.
>
> You missed a good one.
>
>
> Steve Spence
> Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
> & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
> http://www.green-trust.org
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - Original Message -
> From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 9:58 PM
> Subject: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments
>
>
> > El presidente de USA is to make a public address in shortly after 10:00
PM
> Eastern Standard Time this evening. That's only a few minutes from now.
> >
> > Not that I have any desire to hear a word that he has to say, but it
would
> be of value to know exactly when the lights get turned out and how many
> souls are lost to his whim.
> >
> > Todd Swearingen
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Biofuels list archives:
> > http://archive.nnytech.net/
> >
> > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments


If that's what you think, you missed everything. I feel bad for you.

Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
http://www.green-trust.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments


> No Steve, I didn't miss anything. Not the announcement nor the foundation
of
> sand that he has built his house on over the last six months, nor his
utter
> disregard for the country that he swore to serve.
>
> He's a near sighted, impatient ass who can't see the benefit of letting
the
> full weight of global resources come to bear on a situation. He's boxed
not
> only himself into a corner with his impatience but an entire country.
>
> He's wreckless and dangerous on numerous fronts, whether it be
environment,
> domestic construction or global destruction.
>
> No. I didn't miss anything.
>
> Todd Swearingen
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Steve Spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 7:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments
>
>
> > If you listened to what he had to say, maybe you'd realize it's not a
> whim,
> > and the lights are not going out. No, probably not.
> >
> > You missed a good one.
> >
> >
> > Steve Spence
> > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
> > & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
> > http://www.green-trust.org
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 9:58 PM
> > Subject: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments
> >
> >
> > > El presidente de USA is to make a public address in shortly after
10:00
> PM
> > Eastern Standard Time this evening. That's only a few minutes from now.
> > >
> > > Not that I have any desire to hear a word that he has to say, but it
> would
> > be of value to know exactly when the lights get turned out and how many
> > souls are lost to his whim.
> > >
> > > Todd Swearingen
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > >
> > > Biofuels list archives:
> > > http://archive.nnytech.net/
> > >
> > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Biofuels list archives:
> > http://archive.nnytech.net/
> >
> > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[biofuel] "Arrogance of Power"

2003-03-20 Thread Jack Kenworthy


Senator Robert Byrd, for all of his faults, continues to voice a dissenting 
view on Bush Administration policy with a sense of outrage, clarity and 
compassion.


  Senate Remarks by Robert C. Byrd
 
 
 March 19, 2003
  
 
 "The Arrogance of Power"
  
 
 I believe in this beautiful country.  I have studied its roots and gloried 
in the wisdom of its magnificent Constitution.  I have marveled at the wisdom 
of its founders and framers.  Generation after generation of Americans has 
understood the lofty ideals that underlie our great Republic.  I have been 
inspired by the story of their sacrifice and their strength.  

  But, today I weep for my country.  I have watched the events of recent 
months with a heavy, heavy heart.  No more is the image of America one of 
strong, yet benevolent peacekeeper.  The image of America has changed.  Around 
the globe, our friends mistrust us, our word is disputed, our intentions are 
questioned.  

  Instead of reasoning with those with whom we disagree, we demand 
obedience or threaten recrimination.  Instead of isolating Saddam Hussein, we 
seem to have isolated ourselves.  We proclaim a new doctrine of preemption 
which is understood by few and feared by many.  We say that the United States 
has the right to turn its firepower on any corner of the globe which might be 
suspect in the war on terrorism.  We assert that right without the sanction of 
any international body.  As a result, the world has become a much more 
dangerous place. 

  We flaunt our superpower status with arrogance.  We treat UN Security 
Council members like ingrates who offend our princely dignity by lifting their 
heads from the carpet.  Valuable alliances are split.  After war has ended, the 
United States will have to rebuild much more than the country of Iraq.  We will 
have to rebuild America's image around the globe. 

  The case this Administration tries to make to justify its fixation with 
war is tainted by charges of falsified documents and circumstantial evidence.  
We cannot convince the world of the necessity of this war for one simple 
reason.  This is a war of choice.  

  There is no credible information to connect Saddam Hussein to 9/11.  The 
twin towers fell because a world-wide terrorist group, Al Qaeda, with cells in 
over 60 nations, struck at our wealth and our influence by turning our own 
planes into missiles, one of which would likely have slammed into the dome of 
this beautiful Capitol except for the brave sacrifice of the passengers on 
board. 

  The brutality seen on September 11th and in other terrorist attacks we 
have witnessed around the globe are the violent and desperate efforts by 
extremists to stop the daily encroachment of western values upon their 
cultures.  That is what we fight.  It is a force not confined to borders.  It 
is a shadowy entity with many faces, many names, and many addresses. 

  But, this Administration has directed all of the anger, fear, and grief 
which emerged from the ashes of the twin towers and the twisted metal of the 
Pentagon towards a tangible villain, one we can see and hate and attack.  And 
villain he is.  But, he is the wrong villain.  And this is the wrong war.  If 
we attack Saddam Hussein, we will probably drive him from power.  But, the zeal 
of our friends to assist our global war on terrorism may have already taken 
flight. 

  The general unease surrounding this war is not just due to "orange 
alert."  There is a pervasive sense of rush and risk and too many questions 
unanswered.   How long will we be in Iraq?  What will be the cost?  What is the 
ultimate mission?  How great is the danger at home?  A pall has fallen over the 
Senate Chamber.  We avoid our solemn duty to debate the one topic on the minds 
of all Americans, even while scores of thousands of our sons and daughters 
faithfully do their duty in Iraq.  

  What is happening to this country?  When did we become a nation which 
ignores and berates our friends?  When did we decide to risk undermining 
international order by adopting a radical and doctrinaire approach to using our 
awesome military might?  How can we abandon diplomatic efforts when the turmoil 
in the world cries out for diplomacy? 

  Why can this President not seem to see that America's true power lies not 
in its will to intimidate, but in its ability to inspire?  

  War appears inevitable.  But, I continue to hope that the cloud will 
lift.  Perhaps Saddam will yet turn tail and run.  Perhaps reason will somehow 
still prevail.  I along with millions of Americans will pray for the safety of 
our troops, for the innocent civilians in Iraq, and for the security of our 
homeland.  May God continue to bless the United States of America in the 
troubled days ahead, and may we somehow recapture the vision which for the 
present eludes us. 

  ###
 

Daniel O'Brien
History Department
The Island Scho

Re: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments

2003-03-20 Thread Appal Energy


Steve,

Quite respectfully? Please stuff your emotions for me in a sock.

The last thing that I need is for you to feel sorry for me when you can't
get a handle on the bigger picture, opting instead for short lived but not
doubt deeply felt "emotions."

"Emotions" are what dragged the man and this country to this precipice in
the first place - both his lack of better control of them for the greater
good and the ease in which they are manipulated.

Yet it's the rest of the world that gets to suffer the consequences of his
emotions.

Again, please pocket your pity for those who truly deserve it.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: "Steve Spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments


> If that's what you think, you missed everything. I feel bad for you.
>
> Steve Spence
> Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
> & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
> http://www.green-trust.org
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - Original Message -
> From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 9:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments
>
>
> > No Steve, I didn't miss anything. Not the announcement nor the
foundation
> of
> > sand that he has built his house on over the last six months, nor his
> utter
> > disregard for the country that he swore to serve.
> >
> > He's a near sighted, impatient ass who can't see the benefit of letting
> the
> > full weight of global resources come to bear on a situation. He's boxed
> not
> > only himself into a corner with his impatience but an entire country.
> >
> > He's wreckless and dangerous on numerous fronts, whether it be
> environment,
> > domestic construction or global destruction.
> >
> > No. I didn't miss anything.
> >
> > Todd Swearingen
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Steve Spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 7:21 AM
> > Subject: Re: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments
> >
> >
> > > If you listened to what he had to say, maybe you'd realize it's not a
> > whim,
> > > and the lights are not going out. No, probably not.
> > >
> > > You missed a good one.
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve Spence
> > > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
> > > & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
> > > http://www.green-trust.org
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 9:58 PM
> > > Subject: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments
> > >
> > >
> > > > El presidente de USA is to make a public address in shortly after
> 10:00
> > PM
> > > Eastern Standard Time this evening. That's only a few minutes from
now.
> > > >
> > > > Not that I have any desire to hear a word that he has to say, but it
> > would
> > > be of value to know exactly when the lights get turned out and how
many
> > > souls are lost to his whim.
> > > >
> > > > Todd Swearingen
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > > >
> > > > Biofuels list archives:
> > > > http://archive.nnytech.net/
> > > >
> > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > >
> > > Biofuels list archives:
> > > http://archive.nnytech.net/
> > >
> > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Biofuels list archives:
> > http://archive.nnytech.net/
> >
> > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
--

Re: [biofuel] "Arrogance of Power"



Dear Jack,

I admire Senator Robert Byrd also. I read his speeches and saw him on Larry 
King Live. It has been a long time now, since a saw anyone in the 
administration or congress, that have the clout of statesmanship that he is 
showing. He has a courage and wisdom that been lacking for a long time in 
US government.

Hakan

At 10:10 AM 3/20/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Senator Robert Byrd, for all of his faults, continues to voice a 
>dissenting view on Bush Administration policy with a sense of outrage, 
>clarity and compassion.
>
>
>   Senate Remarks by Robert C. Byrd
>
>
>  March 19, 2003
>
>
>  "The Arrogance of Power"
>
>
>  I believe in this beautiful country.  I have studied its roots and 
> gloried in the wisdom of its magnificent Constitution.  I have marveled 
> at the wisdom of its founders and framers.  Generation after generation 
> of Americans has understood the lofty ideals that underlie our great 
> Republic.  I have been inspired by the story of their sacrifice and their 
> strength.
>
>   But, today I weep for my country.  I have watched the events of 
> recent months with a heavy, heavy heart.  No more is the image of America 
> one of strong, yet benevolent peacekeeper.  The image of America has 
> changed.  Around the globe, our friends mistrust us, our word is 
> disputed, our intentions are questioned.
>
>   Instead of reasoning with those with whom we disagree, we demand 
> obedience or threaten recrimination.  Instead of isolating Saddam 
> Hussein, we seem to have isolated ourselves.  We proclaim a new doctrine 
> of preemption which is understood by few and feared by many.  We say that 
> the United States has the right to turn its firepower on any corner of 
> the globe which might be suspect in the war on terrorism.  We assert that 
> right without the sanction of any international body.  As a result, the 
> world has become a much more dangerous place.
>
>   We flaunt our superpower status with arrogance.  We treat UN 
> Security Council members like ingrates who offend our princely dignity by 
> lifting their heads from the carpet.  Valuable alliances are 
> split.  After war has ended, the United States will have to rebuild much 
> more than the country of Iraq.  We will have to rebuild America's image 
> around the globe.
>
>   The case this Administration tries to make to justify its fixation 
> with war is tainted by charges of falsified documents and circumstantial 
> evidence.  We cannot convince the world of the necessity of this war for 
> one simple reason.  This is a war of choice.
>
>   There is no credible information to connect Saddam Hussein to 
> 9/11.  The twin towers fell because a world-wide terrorist group, Al 
> Qaeda, with cells in over 60 nations, struck at our wealth and our 
> influence by turning our own planes into missiles, one of which would 
> likely have slammed into the dome of this beautiful Capitol except for 
> the brave sacrifice of the passengers on board.
>
>   The brutality seen on September 11th and in other terrorist attacks 
> we have witnessed around the globe are the violent and desperate efforts 
> by extremists to stop the daily encroachment of western values upon their 
> cultures.  That is what we fight.  It is a force not confined to 
> borders.  It is a shadowy entity with many faces, many names, and many 
> addresses.
>
>   But, this Administration has directed all of the anger, fear, and 
> grief which emerged from the ashes of the twin towers and the twisted 
> metal of the Pentagon towards a tangible villain, one we can see and hate 
> and attack.  And villain he is.  But, he is the wrong villain.  And this 
> is the wrong war.  If we attack Saddam Hussein, we will probably drive 
> him from power.  But, the zeal of our friends to assist our global war on 
> terrorism may have already taken flight.
>
>   The general unease surrounding this war is not just due to "orange 
> alert."  There is a pervasive sense of rush and risk and too many 
> questions unanswered.   How long will we be in Iraq?  What will be the 
> cost?  What is the ultimate mission?  How great is the danger at home?  A 
> pall has fallen over the Senate Chamber.  We avoid our solemn duty to 
> debate the one topic on the minds of all Americans, even while scores of 
> thousands of our sons and daughters faithfully do their duty in Iraq.
>
>   What is happening to this country?  When did we become a nation 
> which ignores and berates our friends?  When did we decide to risk 
> undermining international order by adopting a radical and doctrinaire 
> approach to using our awesome military might?  How can we abandon 
> diplomatic efforts when the turmoil in the world cries out for diplomacy?
>
>   Why can this President not seem to see that America's true power 
> lies not in its will to intimidate, but in its ability to inspire?
>
>   War appears inevitable.  But, I continue to hope that the cloud

Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!

John E Hayes III wrote:

>Some other facts to consider:
>
>US population as percentage of total of World Population: 4.6%
>US GNP as a as percentage of total of World GNP: 29%
>Percentage of UN dues paid by the US: 25%
>
>My point being that you can argue it either way based on population or
>economic wealth but it is unfair to only pick the statistic that
>supports your  agenda.
>
>John

On a per capita basis, the US uses 5.4 times more than its fair share 
of the world's energy, the EU 2.6 times its share, Germany 2.6 times 
its share, France 2.8 times its share, Japan 2.7 times its share, 
Australia 3.8 times its share.

India uses one-fifth of its fair share, Sudan less than one-fifth its 
share, Nepal less than one-fifth its share.

The average American uses twice as much energy as the average 
European or Japanese and 155 times as much as the average Nepalese.

In terms of production, Americans produce more per head than 
Europeans and about the same as Japanese, but they use twice as much 
energy as the Japanese to do it.

Also please note that the US accounts for more than 36% of global 
greenhouse gas emissions. (Your current administration's "response" 
to this is another issue that's caused worldwide unpopularity.)

Australia, one of the few US "allies" in its anti-Kyoto Protocol 
stance, is even more energy-inefficient than the US - higher per 
capita energy use/per capita production - and is a major exporter of 
coal.

Some other statistics list members have posted:

>"Table 1.  Top BTU Consumption by Country - 1995".
> "Per Capita BTUs (Millions)"
>  India 11
>  Brazil25
>  China27
>  Mexico  57
>  Japan   142
>  UK  148
>  Australia   219
>  Canada 303
>  USA 327
>http://www.ecoworld.com/Articles/May23_BTU_GNP.cfm

>World Per Capita Total Primary Energy Consumption, 1980-1999
>(Million Btu)
>
>Location1999
>÷÷÷
>Africa  15
>Far East and Oceania 29
>Central and
> South America 50
>Middle East 101
>Eastern Europe and
> Former U.S.S.R.125
>Western Europe  148
>North America289
>÷÷÷
>World Total Per Capita  64

> > MH wrote:
> >In the article below it mentioned, "Europeans routinely use 30
> >percent less energy per unit of gross national
> >product than Americans do."

More from this ref:

>Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain Institute has gained a worldwide
>reputation selling the idea that it is cheaper to save energy than to
>buy it. In response to his persuasive presentations about the returns
>on investment in improved efficiency often being 30 percent or more a
>year, many companies have invested heavily in reducing their energy
>use. But even with the efficiency gains since the oil price hikes of
>the 1970s, Lovins believes that U.S. businesses could still cut their
>electric utility bills in half while making money doing so.
>
>Europe's example provides ample proof of the latent energy savings
>potential in the United States. Europeans routinely use 30 percent
>less energy per unit of gross national product than Americans do. The
>United States could easily meet its requirements for carbon reduction
>under the Kyoto Protocol by 2010 simply by moving to European
>efficiency levels, and these are far below the efficiency levels that
>are possible using state-of-the-art technologies.

See:
http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5027

And so on.

Best

Keith

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] In Iraq Crisis, Networks Are Megaphones for Official Views


Paul wrote:

>ok, first off, me and my big mouth should just shut the hell up some times.
>sorry if I got people offended. should know better by now.
>
>On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 08:00 pm, Keith Addison wrote:
> > >I have been mostly deleting all the political discussion recently... In
> > >addition to it making me ill, I just don't have anything to say.
> >
> > Why not?
>
>A number of reasons.  I have been inundated with it, and none of it will
>change my mind and I doubt I'll change anyone elses.

People's minds, behaviour and actions are very often changed through 
discussion with other people. That has happened here quite a lot.

> > >(well,
> > >perhaps that it is a little OT for biofuels,
> >
> > Many here disagree - partly or largely or entirely, it's about oil
> > and power, not off-topic issues on a list dealing with alternative
> > energy options.
>
>yeah, I guess.  arguements about what is OT and if OT is correct or not rarely
>have good outcomes.
>
> >
> > >but I don't mind. that is what
> > >the Del key is for, right?)
> >
> > Some at least here disagree with that too, especially me - please see:
> > http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=21700&list=BIOFUEL
>
>OK, perhaps it would have been more accurate to say "select all the unread
>post when I am done with the ones I want and set them as read"...
>
> >
> > >Usually in these situations I can sit back and quote teh wonderful mantra
> > > we aussies have, "only in America"... Implying that America is big,
> > > bloated, self-important, blinker-visioned and largely stupid [1].
> >
> > Wow - I don't agree with that either, and I think I'm not at all
> > alone there too. We've had recent discussions on the difference (a
> > great difference!) between Americans and "America" - "America" being
> > the government, the administration, the powers-that-be. There was
> > some agreement in referring to the former as Americans, and to the
> > latter as "Washington".
>
>for the record, neither do I.  partly this is a problem with the Media.
>sensationalist stories and shows like COPS, Springer and Ricki Lake poison
>our minds... Also I think we want to be better than the rest of the world
>(recently we suck at it...) so part of it is revelling in the failure of the
>"most powerful nation in the world" (don't get me wrong, you guys
>(politically) suck just as much as anyone, there is just a whole lot more of
>the US than there is of anyone else.  I figure if Australia and the US were
>in the reverse situation, by some accident of us having a war with the UK
>before you lot did, we would suck at it even worse.)
>
>I have to admit part of my own prejudice shone through here... On a whole lot
>of levels.  I  can't stand biotry in religion, politics, I don't like
>mindless competition, and I quite like people to get along. Most of the time.
>It brings out the worst in me I'm afraid.  apologies to all.
>
> >
> > >But I can't now, because we (regardless of how much we say, "well I didn't
> > >vote for him") are doing this too.
> > >
> > >Damn it!
> >
> > You're interested in biofuels, this concerns you. You're a citizen of
> > Planet Earth, this concerns you.
>
>It concerns me, yes.
>can I do anything about it? other than protest my own countries involvement,
>not a lot.

Not true - it's a truism to say "every little bit helps", but the 
thing about truisms is they're true. Everyone has something to 
contribute.



>this war makes me wanna puke. war war war. media wanna show pretty impressive
>pictures of things that might be WOMD being blown up between large-breasted
>burbon adverts. policitions have agenda the don't wanna share. sick of it
>all, don't want to argue about it, don't want to read about it it is all too
>depressing.

Burying your head won't help you nor anyone else. I'm probably going 
to get this quote wrong, but I'll get the gist of it: All that is 
needed for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing.

Best wishes

Keith


>--
>Dr Paul van den Bergen


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments

2003-03-20 Thread krishnaswamy


Hello all,
I am reminded of 1971, when India was supporting the Mukti Bahini in what
was then East Pakistan.The Pakistani army hordes were rampaging all over the
place looting, raping, murdering  and generally terrorising the populace -
all because the puny Bengali had dared to ask for a fair share of the
national cake. The US administration of the time (I think it was the
notorious Mr. Nixon) had openly backed Pakistan in what was patently a
genocide. When Pakistan attacked India for its covert support for the
Bengalis and India responded in kind, the Seventh Fleet was sent to the
Indian Ocean in a brazen attempt to browbeat India into abandoning the
humanitarian cause. It was only Indira Gandhi's shrewd political gambit of
entering into a mutual protection pact with the other Superpower, USSR, that
put paid to little Richard's plans.

I wonder about the likely scenario, if Bangladesh were to happen today.
Perhaps we would have been one more spoke to the larger axis of evil,
reserved for special treatment once the pesky Saddam was interred as the
basis of the dollar's secure future.

Krishnaswamy
Energreen Power Ltd.,
Chennai, TN, India


- Original Message -
From: Steve Spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments


> If that's what you think, you missed everything. I feel bad for you.
>
> Steve Spence
> Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
> & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
> http://www.green-trust.org
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - Original Message -
> From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 9:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments
>
>
> > No Steve, I didn't miss anything. Not the announcement nor the
foundation
> of
> > sand that he has built his house on over the last six months, nor his
> utter
> > disregard for the country that he swore to serve.
> >
> > He's a near sighted, impatient ass who can't see the benefit of letting
> the
> > full weight of global resources come to bear on a situation. He's boxed
> not
> > only himself into a corner with his impatience but an entire country.
> >
> > He's wreckless and dangerous on numerous fronts, whether it be
> environment,
> > domestic construction or global destruction.
> >
> > No. I didn't miss anything.
> >
> > Todd Swearingen
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Steve Spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 7:21 AM
> > Subject: Re: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments
> >
> >
> > > If you listened to what he had to say, maybe you'd realize it's not a
> > whim,
> > > and the lights are not going out. No, probably not.
> > >
> > > You missed a good one.
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve Spence
> > > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
> > > & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
> > > http://www.green-trust.org
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 9:58 PM
> > > Subject: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments
> > >
> > >
> > > > El presidente de USA is to make a public address in shortly after
> 10:00
> > PM
> > > Eastern Standard Time this evening. That's only a few minutes from
now.
> > > >
> > > > Not that I have any desire to hear a word that he has to say, but it
> > would
> > > be of value to know exactly when the lights get turned out and how
many
> > > souls are lost to his whim.
> > > >
> > > > Todd Swearingen
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > > >
> > > > Biofuels list archives:
> > > > http://archive.nnytech.net/
> > > >
> > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > >
> > > Biofuels list archives:
> > > http://archive.nnytech.net/
> > >
> > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Biofuels list archives:
> > http://archive.nnytech.net/
> >
> > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeyt

Re: [biofuel] "Arrogance of Power"

2003-03-20 Thread exotyone


Can all this liberal blame America crap20 of us may die now, so that 
20,000 don't die later...get over it..i'm IN the military and you won't 
see me whining...get back to Bio-fuel matters...and CAN all this stupid and 
Moot political BS. Dissent once American troops are deployed = giving 
comfort, aid and incentive to our enemies, thus increasing the number of 
AMERICAN and Iraqi deaths likelyLets talk  BIO-FUELS!!..
  
 Jennifer, Capt. USAF


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] In Iraq Crisis, Networks Are Megaphones for Official Views

2003-03-20 Thread John E Hayes III


>
>
I have been mostly deleting all the political discussion recently... In
addition to it making me ill, I just don't have anything to say.


>>>Why not?
>>>  
>>>
>>A number of reasons.  I have been inundated with it, and none of it will
>>change my mind and I doubt I'll change anyone elses.
>>
>>
>People's minds, behaviour and actions are very often changed through 
>discussion with other people. That has happened here quite a lot.
>  
>
"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a 
really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would 
actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them 
again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, 
because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it 
happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that 
happened in politics or religion."   -- Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP keynote 
address

Cheers

John



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Biofuel] Crude Oil Price

2003-03-20 Thread milliontc


  Dr Paul van den Bergen
Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures
caia.swin.edu.au
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
IM:bulwynkl2002
It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one.

H Paul
 Are there any on-line reviews?
James


 

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!

- Original Message -
From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 14:41
Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS
INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!

> >
> >No what I'm describing is a system that breaks down, and leaves the
victim
> >out in the cold, all in the name of fairness ( for the criminal ).  After
a
> >while, the victims get tired of being victims, and take matters into
their
> >own hands, just out of a sense of survival.
>
> We do not have this in Europe.
>
>

Unfortanly some people here in the US make their living, by finding the
loopholes in which guilty people go free, to many times it the leter of the
law rather than the spirit of the law that is applied.

> > >Things must have changed in the US, since last time I was
> > > there. I am sorry if my impressions are not up to date.
> > >
> >
> >I don't know when the last time you was here, but, even in the last 2
years,
> >allot has changed.  America is allot more paranoid and fearful, and one
goes
> >with the other.  In the last 30 years certain members of congress in
order
> >to remain in power have made people more reliant on the government for
their
> >everyday needs ( you already know that part ), and you probably already
know
> >that job specialization, has also contributed to this.  What you may not
> >know and allot of Americans don't either and are just finding out is that
> >the US Supreme Court has ruled that police have no legal responsibility
to
> >protect citizens of the US.  So out of fear, people are starting to take
> >matters into their own hands, and this translates to an extent to foreign
> >policy.
>
> You have a serious problem in US, but I don't think that it is solved by
> killing Iraqis.
>

I didn't say it was the only reasion for the foreign policy, but, a factor.
I have a problem with people who sign a treaty ( the one signed at the end
of the gulf war ) and then go back on it, I have a problem with a country
that uses prision and tourture to get its athletes to win Olympic medals,
and one that kidnaps forgein nationals so that the son of the leader can
have rape them.

> >
> >16 vetoes out of how many resolutions ?  I lost track around the 65th.
> >When have the Palestinians tried peace?  I know that Israel tried a
number
> >of times only to have a Palestinian suicide bomber kills several
Israelis.
>
> For UN standards it is a lot of vetoes.

Not realy, look at the old USSR history of vetoes for any of it's friends.

>Suicide bomber is a very new
> phenomena

Not realy.  It goes back to at least WW2.

>and has nothing to do with the reasons for the vetoes. The
> appearances of suicide bombers could maybe be linked as a part of
> the effects of the vetoes.

I doubt it, they again they go back to at least WW2, before the time of the
UN.

>You must be quite desperate to commit
> suicide.

More likely brainwashed.

>It is human beings we are talking about. Why do you think
> they are so desperate?
>
>

Again more likely brainwashed rather than desperate.  Think about it, to the
bomber it is not committing suicide, but, from their standpoint fighting a
war, or combat, in which he/she knows/believes they are going to be rewarded
for killing their enemies.  The fact that they will loss their mortal body,
does not bother them, because they will be basking in the rewards of being
in the arms of Allah ( for causing the death in many cases of women,
children and/or others that did nothing to them ).   This is a lot different
than a solder trying to stay alive on a battlefield, who would just as soon
see the innocent live, and many times lives with guilt, when they do not.
Time and again, Palestinians, have pledged the destruction of Israel and
Israelis, are the Israelis suppose to sit down and let it happen, even when
they have tried to live in peace with them?

>
> I belive you, it is difficult with so much diplomatic immunity.
>
>

Would you want this in your country?  I doubt it.

> >
> >They are humans, that don't make human mistakes  :-P ?  Sorry I don't
know
> >of one place that has police that are not infallible. Even though it may
not
> >seem like it, when police exceed the law, they are still held
accountable.
>
> So the war with Iraq, without UN approval, is a human mistake?
>
>

In a way I think that you can say just that, or more likely a series of
mistakes, by a lot of people, starting with Saddam, thinking that he could
get away with going into Kuwait. Continuing ( as not a few people think )
with the coalalition forces, not continuing until in Baghdad. Go on with
Bush 1 ( and Clinton ) keeping the preasure on for Saddam to honor the peace
treaty.  Bush 1 for giving many Iraqies the idea to over throw Saddam, then
not doing anything ( even indirectly ) to assist them when Saddam finaly got
things organised, and went after the rebals.  The UN for not having the guts
to stand up to Saddam with the first round of disarmament teams, and Sadda

[biofuel] More from my pal

2003-03-20 Thread milliontc


Here's more from my pal...
 
Hi James,

I couldn't tell much about the traffic as I used the train and tube into the 
city. I'm told that the traffic is much better. It is a great source of 
revenue with many fines being imposed. Of course the rich love it, 
finally Ken has done something for them.

I've been in Chicago since Monday and am flying back to San 
Francisco now. I expect the war has commenced now that the 7pm 
deadline has passed. Somber mood here but the majority continue to 
support President. Those for action were encouraged by Blair's winning 
vote in Parliament yesterday. After what I saw when I was there last 
week it amounted to a staggering turnaround. I think there are now 
about 30 countries supporting the US. Spain, Italy, Denmark and 
Holland being all notable. Even France says it will join in if chemical 
weapons are used by Iraq or found. 

The terror alert in the US is one short of the highest but people are 
going about their business. There is a sense of amazement that so 
many are willingly putting their lives on the line to remove the brutal 
dictator. Despite the comfortable life of most Americans the country 
possesses a very strong will and has an awesome responsibility in the 
power it wields. A power that freaks out so many countries. 

While gung ho at the moment as lives begin to be lost there is still 
uncertainty to public opinion going forward.

While Bush has said that the UN can determine how Iraqi oil should be 
controlled there is a growing feeling of fuck it lets take it to pay for this 
war.

The aftermath, the occupation is a major concern and not believed to 
be well thought out. I think first things first in the Bush administration. 

I agree that victory won't solve the distrust of America around the 
world. It will make some countries fear America, though I haven't heard 
of any plans to invade France yet. I do think there is a concern about ill 
will but it just isn't the priority now. 

I think the writer below is right about after Iraq America will deal with 
Iran, Syria, N. Korea and any other regime it considers as a threat to 
national security. The prime task of any head of state is national 
security. This President in the wake of 9/11 has chosen to take the fight 
outside of the country. It doesn't matter who had involvement with that 
particular act of terrorism it only matters if that regime poses a future 
risk. If he blows it he won't be re-elected unlike all these unfortunate 
countries who don't get to choose their leaders.   

Where the UN goes now is in the air. I've no idea what the thinking is 
there.

I think the piece below is right that the world just changed, again. 
People always fear change and when violent change occurs it can only 
be worse. It is clear that the writer is scared. However written by an 
American has the person lost faith in the American people and the 
principle of democracy here? That's where I'll put my faith as it has 
been tried and tested over many years. Living here for so long as well 
as having exposure to many other countries I have faith that 
Americans are basically decent hard working people who get along with 
others. That is why the country is so rich. The constitution has been 
around for a long time and the system of democracy appears 
extremely robust. If Bush is fooling everyone he won't make it through 
the next election.

Most agree Bush has totally blown diplomacy but in simple terms that 
doesn't make Saddam a good guy. He has had his chance, now we are 
going to try to kill him. Scary thought for sure as he will be one slippery 
fucker. He has a brigade with American uniforms, he even paraded 
them openly in Baghdad, and will kill his own people in another sick 
twist to try to gain world support against the Great Satan.

I just hope more Iraqis continue to surrender and they help us get him 
fast before he commits his final solution. Setting fire to the Kuwaiti 
oilfields in '91 was probably just an opening act.

Peace.

 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 1:09 PM
 
Subject: A possible future?


Hi (my pal)
How was London traffic? Has Ken got it right.
Here's an overview by an american which reads well I think...

Of course we'll win on the battlefield, probably with ease. I'm not a
military expert, but I can do the numbers: the most recent U.S. military
budget was $400 billion, while Iraq spent only $1.4 billion.

What frightens me is the aftermath - and I'm not just talking about 
the problems of postwar occupation. I'm worried about what will 
happen beyond Iraq - in the world at large, and here at home.

The members of the Bush team don't seem bothered by the enormous 
ill will
they have generated in the rest of the world. They seem to believe that
other countries will change their minds once they see cheering Iraqis
welcome our troops, or that our bombs will shock and awe the whole 
world
(not just the Iraqis) o

Re: [biofuel] are you ready for peace?

Hello Keith

>Thanks for responding with encouraging words, Keith.
>
>I am an old hippie,

Quite the best kind! :-)

(Not to knock any of the other kinds...)

>and have always believed in peace, love and
>brotherhood.  When we moved to the deep south, in Texas, some people
>called us 'N' lovers, if you know what I mean.

Indeed I do. :-/

>I just smiled and told
>them we are all God's children.
>
>It seems like the tolerance and welcome of differing peoples has really
>faded in North America.  Maybe it is just that the hatred of something
>different is louder than it used to be, but no more people are involved
>than in the old days.  I hope.

I was reading somewhere - where? here? - about the return of 
McCarthyism, with someone pointing out that it never really went 
away, it's always there and simply rises and falls like the tides. 
(Though I'm reluctant to compare it with anything as "natural" as 
tides).

Maybe, at times which are more extreme, they're more extreme in both 
ways. For instance, soon after Bush was elected I started thinking 
his in-your-face anti-environment stance could be a Good Thing - it 
was just too blatant and outrageous, and it was making people angry - 
and *active* - who'd most likely have gone right on slumbering if the 
other lot had won, while much the same sort of thing happened, if 
more quietly.

The list member I was referring to - this one:

> > How sad if they weren't. One list member has adopted a little girl of
> > another race, another culture, from another country, and tells how
> > she's charmed everyone in the family, even the closet racists.

... also told me this:

> Speaking of Hmong farmers, at our local annual farmers market 
>meeting, I overheard one of the Caucasian farmers ask another white 
>farmer "I wonder how many Americans are here?"  I had to laugh 
>because with the exception of a small handful of the Hmong farmers, 
>almost all of them had earned their citizenship.  The rest were born 
>here.  I quickly pointed this out to Mr. White Farmer.  He promptly 
>told me to "Go to Hell." and to "sit next to them Yellow N__'s" 
>I told him that I would rather sit with them because they were 
>better company. An elder "mother" waved me over to sit next to her. 
>She told me in her best English "somedays it is better to sit with 
>friends than with family."

Great, eh? ... on the one hand, downright sad on the other.

IMO, re your header, anyone who's not ready for peace is not ready 
for life, nor probably for death either.

Peace reigns everywhere, throughout nature - the "law of the jungle", 
survival of the fittest, dog-eat-dog... yes, sure, but it's very hard 
to find true aggression in nature. Please note that a predator 
killing its prey is not being aggressive, it's just having dinner. 
For any comparisons with human behaviour to make sense, it has to be 
confined to intra-species aggression - two predators of the same 
species fighting to the death, for instance. Two anything of the same 
species fighting to the death. And it hardly ever happens, excepting 
in extraordinary circumstances where local conditions have become 
distorted. Wolves fight for top-dog status, and there's seldom even 
an injury, if ever - it's ritualised, theatre. It has to be, or 
there'd be no survivors, no matter who won - wolves are too deadly, 
nearly all predators are. Not just predators, it's a general rule: 
Siamese Fighting Fish are an exception; social insects are an 
exception (ants and humans wage wars). Generally, however, the role 
of aggression is to achieve optimum distribution of a species over 
the available resources, not to kill. It also works like that in most 
traditional human societies, until they're distorted by outside 
influences.That doesn't necessarily mean us, the colonizing West, 
it's always happened, one of the great dynamics of history: fierce 
hordes of mounted nomads sweep in from the plains, having overgrazed 
their ranges into a "drought": the peaceful folks in the valley 
settlements are easy pickings... But it's hard to tell who really 
"wins" - after a generation or two the peasants have civilized the 
savages, and indeed been reinvigorated by the infusion of new energy 
(if at a high cost).

What's hard to figure, though, is just why and how it comes to be 
that some of our so-called civilized nations can still be ruled by 
savage warlords. An ancient problem we really need to solve, rather 
urgently now.

Regards

Keith

>Bright Blessings,
>Kim
>
>Keith Addison wrote:
>
> > Hello Kim
> >
> >
> >> I have been reading the ongoing threads about the 'war' for months.
> >> What really troubles me, is that I rarely meet anyone who could actually
> >> live in peace with a neighbor that has a different religion and
> >> lifestyle.  Most countries have laws on the books that are in violation
> >> of someone's religion.  The vocal minority/majority seem to want to try
> >> to legislate morality, at some level.  How many people actually h

Re: Two lists - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1449


Hey Keith,

what about having things that are politic have a [Politics] Sub-Subject
heading, this would let people who are interested in skipping the politics
do so, without having to manually sort through everything else.

Greg H.

- Original Message -
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 05:49
Subject: Two lists - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1449


>
> >I'm about to unsubscribe because I don't have time to sift through all
the
> >political discussions to find some nugget about how to get started with
> >biodiesel.
>
> Of course that's your choice. There are better ways of handling it
> though - please see:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=21700&list=BIOFUEL
>



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] GM 3.5L V6 Diesel

2003-03-20 Thread rpg


Have been offered a GM V6 3.5litre diesel engine/gearbox combination to fit
my Hilux.
Can anyone give me some advice on the performance/reliability/spares
situation for this engine. Have been told that the Holden petrol V6 is based
on this engine, is this correct?

regards   Paul Gobert.


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] the concept of this war


>Aloe,Keith:  I was in "shock and awe" that you passed my Ullman post without
>comment, given the prevailing tone of the posts of the past several months.

I think you're a confused person, Donald Strong, in more ways than 
one - above, and see below...

>Now that you have commented, I'll reply.
>
>"""800 cruise missiles into Baghdad in two days? Little loss of life?
>Have neither you nor he read the projections? ""
>
>1) This may have been part of the psychological hype (psy-ops) in the run-up
>of the last few weeks, to convince Saddam to not fight, but flee.

If you really think this is a serious suggestion, then you didn't 
read the link I posted, which I'd also posted previously, but you 
didn't read it then either - just label and dismiss. Not only that, 
you cut it right out of your reply. Well, here it is again - far from 
the only such information to hand, but you didn't read any of that 
either it seems.

>"The plan includes simultaneous ground invasions from north and 
>south... It also includes a sudden decimation of Baghdad by raining 
>down on its people, in two days, over 800 cruise missiles -- more 
>than were used in the entire Gulf War. Ullman... characterized the 
>Baghdad assault thusly: `You have this simultaneous effect, rather 
>like the nuclear weapons of Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks but 
>minutes.' It would be a firestorm, a Dresden or Tokyo with 60 years 
>of new technology. It would be a war crime of quick and staggering 
>proportions.
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=14544

>2) This is not WW II with German v-2's indiscriminately raining down on
>civilian England.

Indeed not, it's a hell of a lot worse than that - as it says, like 
the nuclear weapons of Hiroshima, like Dresden or Tokyo with 60 years 
of new technology.

>Our military is fond of touting the precision of it's
>hardware.

Yes they are, and it's often been debunked. Steve just posted perhaps 
the latest in a long line of debunkings going back more than 10 years 
(to guess when):

>US gambles on a 'smart' war in Iraq
>The military hope precision weapons will both win the war and help prevent
>politically damning civilian casualties - but the technology is far from
>fail-safe
>http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns3518


>Maybe 800 on the Palaces and Ministry of Information, but not
>indiscriminately on the city.

Go and do your homework Donald.

>""How can Harlan Ullman, while claiming to have written the book
>on
>"Shock and Awe", say this?
>
> >And, while a rapid, stunning victory with relatively little loss of
> >life will surely create a favorable political condition, that may
> >not be enough."
>
>He can say it because of the following paragraph (which you did not
>include).

But I did include it - I included the entire thing below my response. 
YOU, On the other hand, have snipped anything in my response which 
you didn't feel like dealing with, which was most of it. You did that 
last time too - while calling your post "Evenhandedness".

>""It is the peace that will dictate who ultimately won the war. In
> >that regard, the Bush administration would be well-advised to
> >concentrate its future intellectual and practical efforts."""
>
>He's asking the Bush Administration to make the peace as successful as the
>war.

How exactly does this address the high civilian casualty rates to 
result from his own strategy and his denial of that?

>Keith, now that we've cracked the opposition ice, can I submit a George Will
>piece? :}

As I told you last time, you can proceed to subsequent issues once 
you've swept up behind you on this one, which you haven't done, nor 
with the last one.

>>Aloe,Keith:  My posts were an attempt to partially counter the overwhelming
>>Bush-Washington bashing of the political posts on your site. They were
>>offered in a friendly, non-combative way, not to "waste your time", but to
>>provide listers with an alternative opinion.
>
>If that was so, why did you not respond to my reply to your 
>Krauthammer post? Instead you post a not very relevant quote by 
>Conrad Black and another piece by George Will, and I suppose you'll 
>ignore my responses to those too?

And it's not "my site" - it's a discussion list.

So, please, as advised, try at least to adhere to the universal rules 
of discussion: I still haven't had a response to my reply to your 
Krauthammer post. It debunked both him and you. You don't respond, 
pretend it never happened, and will probably come back later and say 
it all over again. Less than even-handed. Now you're trying the same 
ploy with this Ullman piece, this token effort notwithstanding.

Keith Addison


>Don Strong


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
---

Re: [biofuel] san diego organic farming article


>http://www.sdcitybeat.com/article.php?id=631
>
>Keith:
>
>assuming you will like this article, let me note that the masthead is
>very clear as to prohibiting reproduction of any article, but I
>suggest you do it for your own records at the least, lest they take it
>down at some point.

Thankyou MM!! I do like it, yes. lots of chiopping away at the 
organics standards going on - "organic" chickens raised on 
non-organic food, same with other livestock. The standards themselves 
merely served to facilitate food-industry entrance - and exclude 
realm organic farmers. Which is what could happen to biofuellers if 
we started pushing for a small-brewers/home-brewers trade association 
of some kind and official standards and recognition.

regards

Keith


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] the concept of this war


Hi Martin

>Donald Strong wrote:
>
> >Aloe,Keith:  I was in "shock and awe" that you passed my Ullman post without
> >comment, given the prevailing tone of the posts of the past several months.
> >
> >Now that you have commented, I'll reply.
> >
> >"""800 cruise missiles into Baghdad in two days? Little loss of life?
> >Have neither you nor he read the projections? ""
> >
> >1) This may have been part of the psychological hype (psy-ops) in the run-up
> >of the last few weeks, to convince Saddam to not fight, but flee.
> >
> >2) This is not WW II with German v-2's indiscriminately raining down on
> >civilian England. Our military is fond of touting the precision of it's
> >hardware. Maybe 800 on the Palaces and Ministry of Information, but not
> >indiscriminately on the city.
> >
> >
>Such as .. say .. legal drug factories.
>Oh.. I mean chemical warfare manufaturing facilities.

... That's right, chemical warfare manufacturing facilities - 
including infant milk formula factories.

Keith


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

RE: [biofuel] I Want YOU To Invade Iraq - says Uncle oSAMa


>My gut feel is in the US it will hit the fan this summer. Saddam probably
>will be a quick victory but I think a backlash will come some months later.
>
>Hope I am wrong.

I hope so too - but this will cause world-wide fury against the US. 
Ever since Sept 11 (remember Sept 11? - that's right, that's when 
Saddam bombed New York, or so 42% of Americans now believe) - anyway, 
ever since Sept 11 a very wide variety of people have warned against 
the consequences of such sowings of dragon's teeth as this. And who 
created Saddam - uh, I mean Osama anyway? What a trail of woe and 
unlearnt lessons, from supporting the mujahedeen in Afghanistan 
against the Soviets (or was it Saddam the US supported then against 
Iran?) through Sept 11 to this sorry mess.

Keith


>Kirk
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 9:17 PM
>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [biofuel] I Want YOU To Invade Iraq - says Uncle oSAMa
>
>
>I Want YOU To Invade Iraq
>
>Go ahead. Saddam will quickly fall, but that won't make the world
>safer or more secure. Your bombs will send me a new generation of
>recruits and fuel their hatred and desire for revenge. So go ahead.
>Squander your wealth on war and occupation -- America will be weaker
>for it. Divide your people, divide the world, isolate yourselves!
>Perfect! I thrive on chaos. I need an enemy. You give me both.
>http://www.tompaine.com/op_ads/opad.cfm/ID/7434
>TOMPAINE.com - Op Ads
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!


Hi Ed

Well then, I guess both things happened, probably closely associated. 
And both fell victim to the benevolance and goodwill to all mankind 
of Big Oil.  It could have been one of the three plants the American 
energy technologist tried to get going

Anyway, the Sasol plant in South Africa is still going strong. They 
make quality fuel from low-grade brown coal which won't even burn. 
There are massive amounts of that stuff lying around. This and other 
things are seldom taken into account when people talk of Hubbert's 
Peak, the end of oil, "die-off", etc. See:
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=11083&list=biofuel&related=1

regards

Keith



>Keith:  I listened to an interview on Tom Valentine's radio show 
>discuss the plant which was brought to Missouri.  It was years ago, 
>and I cannot give the nane of the man.  It was at least an hour of 
>discussion about the history, quality of fuel, cost, and other 
>aspects.
>
>Ed B
>  - Original Message -
>  From: Keith Addison
>  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>  Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 10:07 PM
>  Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT 
>REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
>
>
>  >At the time of the Second World War, German technology was producing
>  >gasoline from coal.  An entire factory was brought from Germany, and
>  >assembled in Missouri.  It made gasoline at a cost of 5 cents a
>  >gallon.  It was dismantled and the technology was hidden away.
>  >
>  >Ed B
>
>  Not so. This is what happened - posted here previously by a list member:
>
>  > "One of our oldest scientists, now 84 yrs. old, was responsible for
>  >going into Germany post WWII and uncovering the remains of Hitler's
>  >synthetic fuels machine which had been bombed out. I'm speaking of
>  >Fischer-Tropsch oily-based paraffins which are hydrocracked down
>  >into shorter chains for synthetic gasoline, jet fuel and diesel. He
>  >brought back some of the original German scientists who'd perfected
>  >this technology which utilized coarse, low-grade brown German coal
>  >as feedstock. Three times he tried to start-up an American version
>  >of synthetic hydrocarbon fuels in the GTL arena and was blocked. As
>  >the highest ranking American energy technologist post WWII, he
>  >couldn't figure this out. It was over 20 years later that he
>  >realized that the late John Rockefeller of Standard Oil [Exxon] had
>  >been the politic behind the scenes, making sure that his new,
>  >alternative fuel ideas did not materialize. This scientist then took
>  >his blueprints for the first major GTL project and gave them to
>  >Sasol who built his first coal gasification device back in 1953 and
>  >it is still operating today. Sasol from South Africa is the oldest
>  >synthetic fuels producer globally."
>
>  Best wishes
>
>  Keith
>
>
>  > >Yes, hydrogen from coal is the only fossil alternative. It will take you
>  > >20 to 30 years to get to this. Bush loves this, since he probably been
>  > >briefed about the seriousness of today's situation. He does not explain
>  > >it to the American people, like both Carter and Nixon tried to do. Things
>  > >have not got better since then, on the contrary.
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Biofuel] Crude Oil Price

Hello Paul

>On Thu, 20 Mar 2003 04:22 pm, murdoch wrote:
> > On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 22:36:29 -0600, you wrote:
> > > I was looking at the one year chart on
> > > Light Sweet Crude Oil Apr 2003 (NYMEX:CLJ3)
> > > http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYMEX_CLJ3&v=d12
> > > with a report below chart.
> > >
> > > Quite a steep drop the past few days.
> > > Basically gone from $38 barrel to $30
> >
> > I think it's more or less analagous to what happened in the first Gulf
> > War.  Once the uncertainty was removed, the price dropped.  I don't
> > know what would make it go back up, because you have a lot of push
> > behind that drop.  The "spiggots" have been open for some days or
> > weeks now.  However, a destruction of the oil fields I suppose could
> > make things interesting oil-price-wise.
>
>so are we caught between a rock and a hard place here? if oil prices go up,
>biodiesel becomes viable. but the economy goes bad.  Prices go down,
>biodiesel remains the domain of a few religious zealots...

Biodiesel is not the domain of a few religious zealots. In 2001, the 
European Union produced and used 300 million gallons of biodiesel. 
The same year, the US produced and used 35 million gallons (I think 
that was something like a 40% increase on 2000, or more). By 2016, 
the US expects to produce more than 800 million gallons. The 
Department of Energy says it supports six billion gallons by the year 
2020. That would be 15.5% of the diesel consumed in North America at 
current rates of increase (heh!). Meanwhile a lot of other countries 
are getting into biodiesel production, at various scales of 
operation. It's here to stay. Fossil fuel overuse isn't here to stay.

>personally I'd like to see tripple ledger accounting enacted in teh energy
>industry...

Yes! I'd also like to see biodiesel production wrested free of the 
agriculture commodity concerns such as Big Soy, ADM, Monsanto, 
Dow-Cargill, and indeed the NBB (not exactly religious zealots), and 
their rapeseed equivalents in the EU.

Best

Keith

>--
>Dr Paul van den Bergen

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] A third option - USA versus Europe.[long]

2003-03-20 Thread Kim & Garth Travis


See coments below:

paul van den bergen wrote:

 
> this came accross my desk from another list... quoted lock stock and barrel 
> of 
> oil...  first time I have read something that vaguely ties together... Not 
> saying it is right, because all conspiracy theories look right from a certain 
> angle... but hopefully it will raise more questions than it answers... or do  
> ean that the other way around...
>


>> IT'S NOT ABOUT OIL OR IRAQ.
>> IT'S ABOUT THE US AND EUROPE
>> GOING HEAD-TO-HEAD ON WORLD ECONOMIC DOMINANCE.
>> By Geoffrey Heard
>> Melbourne, Australia
>> 

snip

 
>> Iraq is a European Union beachhead in that confrontation. America had
>> a monopoly on the oil trade, with the US dollar being the fiat
>> currency, but Iraq broke ranks in 1999, started to trade oil in the
>> EU's euros, and profited. If America invades Iraq and takes over, it
>> will hurl the EU and its euro back into the sea and make America's
>> position as the dominant economic power in the world all but
>> impregnable.

This makes sense to me, as I have heard many people stating that they 
feel the war to cause the US dollar to loose its importance in world 
trade.  Did Iraq really change to EU's euros in 1999?

Bright Blessings,
Kim


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!


This Sasol plant in South Africa sounds interesting.  Any connection to the 
German technology?

We have in Canada, a massive store of petroleum in the Athabasca Tar Sands.  
Estimates are that it is 400 times (or was it 4,000) times the known regular 
world oil reserves.  It is oil soaked shale, costly to extract.

It appears the death of investments in extraction was recently effected by the 
idiot government signing the Kyoto protocal.

Ed B
  - Original Message - 
  From: Keith Addison 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 1:18 PM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS 
INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!


  Hi Ed

  Well then, I guess both things happened, probably closely associated. 
  And both fell victim to the benevolance and goodwill to all mankind 
  of Big Oil.  It could have been one of the three plants the American 
  energy technologist tried to get going

  Anyway, the Sasol plant in South Africa is still going strong. They 
  make quality fuel from low-grade brown coal which won't even burn. 
  There are massive amounts of that stuff lying around. This and other 
  things are seldom taken into account when people talk of Hubbert's 
  Peak, the end of oil, "die-off", etc. See:
  http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=11083&list=biofuel&related=1

  regards

  Keith



  >Keith:  I listened to an interview on Tom Valentine's radio show 
  >discuss the plant which was brought to Missouri.  It was years ago, 
  >and I cannot give the nane of the man.  It was at least an hour of 
  >discussion about the history, quality of fuel, cost, and other 
  >aspects.
  >
  >Ed B
  >  - Original Message -
  >  From: Keith Addison
  >  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  >  Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 10:07 PM
  >  Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT 
  >REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
  >
  >
  >  >At the time of the Second World War, German technology was producing
  >  >gasoline from coal.  An entire factory was brought from Germany, and
  >  >assembled in Missouri.  It made gasoline at a cost of 5 cents a
  >  >gallon.  It was dismantled and the technology was hidden away.
  >  >
  >  >Ed B
  >
  >  Not so. This is what happened - posted here previously by a list member:
  >
  >  > "One of our oldest scientists, now 84 yrs. old, was responsible for
  >  >going into Germany post WWII and uncovering the remains of Hitler's
  >  >synthetic fuels machine which had been bombed out. I'm speaking of
  >  >Fischer-Tropsch oily-based paraffins which are hydrocracked down
  >  >into shorter chains for synthetic gasoline, jet fuel and diesel. He
  >  >brought back some of the original German scientists who'd perfected
  >  >this technology which utilized coarse, low-grade brown German coal
  >  >as feedstock. Three times he tried to start-up an American version
  >  >of synthetic hydrocarbon fuels in the GTL arena and was blocked. As
  >  >the highest ranking American energy technologist post WWII, he
  >  >couldn't figure this out. It was over 20 years later that he
  >  >realized that the late John Rockefeller of Standard Oil [Exxon] had
  >  >been the politic behind the scenes, making sure that his new,
  >  >alternative fuel ideas did not materialize. This scientist then took
  >  >his blueprints for the first major GTL project and gave them to
  >  >Sasol who built his first coal gasification device back in 1953 and
  >  >it is still operating today. Sasol from South Africa is the oldest
  >  >synthetic fuels producer globally."
  >
  >  Best wishes
  >
  >  Keith
  >
  >
  >  > >Yes, hydrogen from coal is the only fossil alternative. It will take you
  >  > >20 to 30 years to get to this. Bush loves this, since he probably been
  >  > >briefed about the seriousness of today's situation. He does not explain
  >  > >it to the American people, like both Carter and Nixon tried to do. 
Things
  >  > >have not got better since then, on the contrary.
  >


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
  ADVERTISEMENT
 
   
   

  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

  Biofuels list archives:
  http://archive.nnytech.net/

  Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
  To unsubscribe, send an email to:
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.

Re: [biofuel] "Arrogance of Power"

2003-03-20 Thread Paul Schwartz


10-4
Paul

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] "Arrogance of Power"


> Can all this liberal blame America crap20 of us may die now, so that
> 20,000 don't die later...get over it..i'm IN the military and you
won't
> see me whining...get back to Bio-fuel matters...and CAN all this stupid
and
> Moot political BS. Dissent once American troops are deployed = giving
> comfort, aid and incentive to our enemies, thus increasing the number of
> AMERICAN and Iraqi deaths likelyLets talk  BIO-FUELS!!..
>
>  Jennifer, Capt. USAF
>




 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] In Iraq Crisis, Networks Are Megaphones for Official Views


Hi John

>I have been mostly deleting all the political discussion recently... In
>addition to it making me ill, I just don't have anything to say.
>
>
Why not?


>>>A number of reasons.  I have been inundated with it, and none of it will
>>>change my mind and I doubt I'll change anyone elses.
>>>
>>>
>>People's minds, behaviour and actions are very often changed 
>>through discussion with other people. That has happened here quite 
>>a lot.
>>
>"In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a 
>really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would 
>actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from 
>them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it 
>should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes 
>painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time 
>someting like that happened in politics or religion."   -- Carl 
>Sagan, 1987 CSICOP keynote address
>
>Cheers
>
>John

It happens all the time in society though, even when people are 
talking about politics, and yes, even religion. About science, 
there's also this, according to Max Planck: "A new scientific truth 
does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the 
light, but rather because its opponents eventually die." I do love 
hearing them say: "Of course we know now..." with such assurance, 
blithely unaware that someone else'll probably be saying that about 
them before very long.

How about this for true science?

>Professor Stott told BBC News Online: "The problem with a chaotic 
>coupled non-linear system as complex as climate is that you can no 
>more predict successfully the outcome of doing something as of not 
>doing something. Kyoto will not halt climate change. Full stop." - 
>BBC News, 25 February, 2002 - Sceptics denounce climate science 'lie'

LOL! He just couldn't see it.

Anyway, on doing nothing:

> One of the most powerful aspects of delusion, or ignorance, is the 
>belief that what we do does not really matter -- Sharon Salzberg

> Never underestimate the power of a small group of individuals to 
>change the world. In fact, it is the only thing that ever has. -- 
>Margaret Mead

Best wishes

Keith

It becomes no longer a matter of choice, but the moral obligation and 
bounden duty of every responsible writer to bear witness to the times 
he lives in and to put his life and his work at the service of 
humanity. - Cecil Rajendra


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] "Arrogance of Power"

Jennifer:  Just wondering, did you take an oath to defend the US Constitution?  
Did you notice any mention of building a foreign empire in it?  

EdB
  - Original Message - 
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 10:48 AM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] "Arrogance of Power"

  Can all this liberal blame America crap20 of us may die now, so that 
  20,000 don't die later...get over it..i'm IN the military and you won't 
  see me whining...get back to Bio-fuel matters...and CAN all this stupid and 
  Moot political BS. Dissent once American troops are deployed = giving 
  comfort, aid and incentive to our enemies, thus increasing the number of 
  AMERICAN and Iraqi deaths likelyLets talk  BIO-FUELS!!..

   Jennifer, Capt. USAF

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
  ADVERTISEMENT

  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

  Biofuels list archives:
  http://archive.nnytech.net/

  Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
  To unsubscribe, send an email to:
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!

Greg H.,

Today is a very sad day, when one of the pillars of world peace
is violated. I am tired and you have to excuse me, if I do not want
to continue with this "discusion de Besugos", as the Spanish would
call it.

One day when you feel for it, please try to imagine the situation of
a Palestinian, who under duress of war fled from his home in Israel.
When the war was over and Israel occupied the territory where your
refugee camp was located, you were denied the right to return back
home by force. Continue then to think of all other human right you
and your family have been denied for more than 35 years and that
you have seen your children and grand children growing up in a
ghetto, without availability to education or a future. You have seen
your children and grand children develop hate and disparity, as more
natural feelings than love and compassion. You have been suppressed
and denied normal human rights for 35 years and your children and
grand children does not know what freedom is. You have seen your
family and friends die as "collateral damage", when throwing stones at
the soldiers who occupies your refugee camp.

Until you try to go through this thought process, I will close this
discussion as meaningless. I do not have to ask you to put yourself
in the situation of an Israeli, who lives at a constant fear that what he
was party of creating, will come back and hunt him.

It is a very serious and difficult situation and have to be approached
accordingly, with respect and understanding for both parties.

Now we can go back and look at the artificial TV entertainment
that US call operation "??? ", because it is a very expensive show that
cost human lives for each minute we look at it. Or maybe more
important for the producers, a lot of US $. It is a big investment, but
I am sure that it will make oil profits at the box office.

Hakan

At 10:13 AM 3/20/2003 -0700, you wrote:

> > >
> > >No what I'm describing is a system that breaks down, and leaves the
>victim
> > >out in the cold, all in the name of fairness ( for the criminal ).  After
>a
> > >while, the victims get tired of being victims, and take matters into
>their
> > >own hands, just out of a sense of survival.
> >
> > We do not have this in Europe.
> >
> >
>
>Unfortanly some people here in the US make their living, by finding the
>loopholes in which guilty people go free, to many times it the leter of the
>law rather than the spirit of the law that is applied.
>
>
> > > >Things must have changed in the US, since last time I was
> > > > there. I am sorry if my impressions are not up to date.
> > > >
> > >
> > >I don't know when the last time you was here, but, even in the last 2
>years,
> > >allot has changed.  America is allot more paranoid and fearful, and one
>goes
> > >with the other.  In the last 30 years certain members of congress in
>order
> > >to remain in power have made people more reliant on the government for
>their
> > >everyday needs ( you already know that part ), and you probably already
>know
> > >that job specialization, has also contributed to this.  What you may not
> > >know and allot of Americans don't either and are just finding out is that
> > >the US Supreme Court has ruled that police have no legal responsibility
>to
> > >protect citizens of the US.  So out of fear, people are starting to take
> > >matters into their own hands, and this translates to an extent to foreign
> > >policy.
> >
> > You have a serious problem in US, but I don't think that it is solved by
> > killing Iraqis.
> >
>
>I didn't say it was the only reasion for the foreign policy, but, a factor.
>I have a problem with people who sign a treaty ( the one signed at the end
>of the gulf war ) and then go back on it, I have a problem with a country
>that uses prision and tourture to get its athletes to win Olympic medals,
>and one that kidnaps forgein nationals so that the son of the leader can
>have rape them.
>
>
> > >
> > >16 vetoes out of how many resolutions ?  I lost track around the 65th.
> > >When have the Palestinians tried peace?  I know that Israel tried a
>number
> > >of times only to have a Palestinian suicide bomber kills several
>Israelis.
> >
> > For UN standards it is a lot of vetoes.
>
>Not realy, look at the old USSR history of vetoes for any of it's friends.
>
> >Suicide bomber is a very new
> > phenomena
>
>Not realy.  It goes back to at least WW2.
>
> >and has nothing to do with the reasons for the vetoes. The
> > appearances of suicide bombers could maybe be linked as a part of
> > the effects of the vetoes.
>
>I doubt it, they again they go back to at least WW2, before the time of the
>UN.
>
> >You must be quite desperate to commit
> > suicide.
>
>More likely brainwashed.
>
> >It is human beings we are talking about. Why do you think
> > they are so desperate?
> >
> >
>
>Again more likely brainwashed rather than desperate.  Think about it, to the
>bomber it is not committing suicide, but, from their standpoint fighting a
>war

Re: [biofuel] "Arrogance of Power"

2003-03-20 Thread Appal Energy


Well Captain Jennifer,

It would seem that you would like to function as the "Thought Police" as
well as an MP? Command and control tactics at their finest, eh? Or is it
their worst?

I suppose it all depends from which end of the barrel one is looking.

As for the fact that you're "IN" the military, that was indeed your choice
was it not? No one is spitting on the military. Everyone is perfectly aware
as to how this peculiar democracy works (the US) inclusive of the fact that
it's not generally the the tail that wags the dog.

Yet you who have chosen "to serve and protect" democracy (wellactually
only one nation's "democracy") would attempt to squelch one of the most
basic and esssential democratic freedoms, albeit on an international
internet list.

And then to go on and postulate that to speak out against the processes that
have occurred - and even more importantly those processes that were never
permitted to occur - is giving aid and comfort to the enemy? Why don't you
just walk up with the butt of your gun, smash the case that the US
constitution is encased in and then declare everyone who disagrees with you
to be a "traitor," ("If you're not for us, you're against us.") and just
line them up or shoot them on sight - women, children and veterans all.

Doubtful that you're a Captain of anything save your own ship. And if you
were, you'd be called front and center with the demand made that you do a
"gut check" this very minute.

Todd Swearingen

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] "Arrogance of Power"


> Can all this liberal blame America crap20 of us may die now, so that
> 20,000 don't die later...get over it..i'm IN the military and you
won't
> see me whining...get back to Bio-fuel matters...and CAN all this stupid
and
> Moot political BS. Dissent once American troops are deployed = giving
> comfort, aid and incentive to our enemies, thus increasing the number of
> AMERICAN and Iraqi deaths likelyLets talk  BIO-FUELS!!..
>
>  Jennifer, Capt. USAF
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: Two lists - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1449


Hi Greg\

>Hey Keith,
>
>what about having things that are politic have a [Politics] Sub-Subject
>heading, this would let people who are interested in skipping the politics
>do so, without having to manually sort through everything else.
>
>Greg H.

One reason (of quite a few) would be that trying to make decisions on 
what's "political" and what's not with which all would agree would be 
as impractical and impossible as making a list of biofuels topics 
that everyone would have to stick to.

>"Political discussion is VITAL to the future of biofuels."
>http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=21715&list=BIOFUEL
>
>(No, that wasn't me...)

... though lots of listers have said something similar, and about 
wildly different things.

Another reason is that I have a very strong impression that these 
complaints almost all come from a small group of people who are not 
at all representative. I'm reluctant to take any steps to change 
anything on their behalf because that more or less has to be an 
imposition on the majority, without any real merit to it, no real 
improvement to the list from the majority's point of view - no 
improvement to the way the list addresses biofuels issues, and 
probably a diminishment.

Look at this one just came in:

>FROM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>DATE: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:48:09 EST
>SUBJECT: Re: [biofuel] "Arrogance of Power"
>
>Can all this liberal blame America crap20 of us may die
>now, so that 20,000 don't die later...get over it..i'm
>IN the military and you won't see me whining...get back to
>Bio-fuel matters...and CAN all this stupid and Moot
>political BS. Dissent once American troops are deployed =
>giving comfort, aid and incentive to our enemies, thus
>increasing the number of AMERICAN and Iraqi deaths
>likelyLets talk BIO-FUELS!!..
>
>Jennifer, Capt. USAF

LOL! Yes, SIR!! I mean, sir, you wouldn't go and yell orders at a few 
thousand people who're very likely to take a rather dim view of you 
right now before checking out the background would you? You did 
notice that this has been discussed here a couple of times before? So 
does everybody in the USAF have a similar attention span and 
comprehension? Terrifying.

So Greg, you want me to shove everything out of gear to cater to this person?

regards

Keith


>- Original Message -
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 05:49
>Subject: Two lists - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1449
>
>
> >
> > >I'm about to unsubscribe because I don't have time to sift through all
>the
> > >political discussions to find some nugget about how to get started with
> > >biodiesel.
> >
> > Of course that's your choice. There are better ways of handling it
> > though - please see:
> > http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=21700&list=BIOFUEL
> >
>
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] "Arrogance of Power"

2003-03-20 Thread martin

Pull your hat down lower. Feels better to say you're right because your 
government says so, doesn't it. Dissent does NOT equal treason. I repeat 
because people with their crap logic don't understand it: DISSENT DOES 
NOT EQUAL TREASON.
People who say they don't want the military over there are commiting 
treason, right?
I have the right to disagree with the government. The people HAVE A 
RIGHT TO DISAGREE. If you insist on making a woven crap connection 
between dissent and treason, PROVE IT.

For example, I can prove my argument:
Statement: "I disagree with military action in the middle east"
Argument #1: giving comfort
Reply: No matter how many Iraqis I tell, none of them are going to feel 
better knowing I disagree with my government.
Argument #2: aid
Reply: How is protesting giving aid? I didn't give anyone any sort of aid.
Argument #3: incentive
Reply: Is someone going to be more likely to fight knowing I don't like 
what's going on? No. If 2 people are in a fist fight, are they going to 
care what the other person's mother thinks?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>Can all this liberal blame America crap20 of us may die now, so that 
>20,000 don't die later...get over it..i'm IN the military and you won't 
>see me whining...get back to Bio-fuel matters...and CAN all this stupid and 
>Moot political BS. Dissent once American troops are deployed = giving 
>comfort, aid and incentive to our enemies, thus increasing the number of 
>AMERICAN and Iraqi deaths likelyLets talk  BIO-FUELS!!..
>  
> Jennifer, Capt. USAF
>
>
>  
>

-- 
---
Martin Klingensmith
http://nnytech.net/
http://infoarchive.net/

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[biofuel] Re: PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS IN IRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!

2003-03-20 Thread motie_d

--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Andrew
> 
> >
> John's almost certainly right.
> 
> "Rednecks" (is that an abusive term or not? - I dunno) seem to be 
> generally intolerant of other views than their own and inclined to 
be 
> noisy and chauvinistic about it. A bit like this:
> 
> Which Side Of The Media Is Inclusive? - Conservative Media Don't 
Want
> To Hear From The 'Other Guy'
> http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7355
> 
> So their opinions here might be disproportionate to their numbers.
> 
> Best
> 
> Keith
> 

Hi Keith,
I am severely pressed for time, and can't address as many issues as 
I'd like.
I will address the term 'Redneck' from my personal perspective. Other 
views may vary.

Many(most?) times the term is used, it is meant to be disparaging, by 
the ignorant.
A 'Redneck' is the ultimate representative of 'Bottom-up' policies. 
He is independant and separate from influences of 'authorities'. He 
finds his own solutions to his own problems, using his own resources.
(sometimes in conflict with those who would forcibly impose their 
solutions on him, at his expense)
A Redneck does not usually try to impose his views on others, and is 
fairly intolerant of those who would attempt to impose their views on 
him. Attempted reasonable persuasion is usually acceptable, but 
blatant use of force will be resisted.(It is the use of force that is 
resisted, not necessarily the idea that is attempted to be forced)

If you don't care for the color of the window trim on my house, you 
may be successful in arguing your point with me, that it would 
beautify the neighborhood for everyone to have matching colors.
(Especially if you were to offer to pay for the paint!)
Threatening to throw me in jail, repainting my house against my will 
and Billing me for the costs, (garnishing my paycheck) will not make 
you be my 'Friend for life'!(And may prompt a bit of 're-painting' 
when I get out of jail)
It's not your idea that a Redneck may oppose, it is the threatened 
use of force to implement your idea, regardless of his thoughts 
and/or feelings that gets ignorant people in trouble when dealing 
with 'Rednecks'. Most of them are quite reasonable people, when you 
quit trying to force them into unquestioningly complying with 
arbitrary rules without supporting reasonings.

Proud Redneck,
Motie

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!

- Original Message -
From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 13:49
Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS
INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!

> One day when you feel for it, please try to imagine the situation of
> a Palestinian, who under duress of war fled from his home in Israel.
> When the war was over and Israel occupied the territory where your
> refugee camp was located, you were denied the right to return back
> home by force. Continue then to think of all other human right you
> and your family have been denied for more than 35 years and that
> you have seen your children and grand children growing up in a
> ghetto, without availability to education or a future. You have seen
> your children and grand children develop hate and disparity, as more
> natural feelings than love and compassion. You have been suppressed
> and denied normal human rights for 35 years and your children and
> grand children does not know what freedom is. You have seen your
> family and friends die as "collateral damage", when throwing stones at
> the soldiers who occupies your refugee camp.
>
> Until you try to go through this thought process, I will close this
> discussion as meaningless. I do not have to ask you to put yourself
> in the situation of an Israeli, who lives at a constant fear that what he
> was party of creating, will come back and hunt him.
>

I have tried, to think it through.  I keep coming back to the fact if the
other side offers peace, and someone on my side screws it up in the name of
doing it for me, and causes more problems for me, who should I blame, the
other side or my side?  Should I bide my time, not make things worse and try
to make things better slowly, or should I try go out and kill someone that
had nothing to do with why I am in the position I am.

> It is a very serious and difficult situation and have to be approached
> accordingly, with respect and understanding for both parties.
>

Your right,  I see parallels in the UK and the IRA, but, it looks like they
are well on the way to peace, because, both sides got their act together,
not just one, but, in Israel, from every thing I have seen, it seems that
one side has tried more than the other side, in fact one of them does not
want the other to survive at all let alone in peace.  I have a very, very
hard time getting past that, and if you can help all the better.  It's one
thing to live in peace, but, another to live in a situation were you have to
repress a people in just order to survive.  What is better, repress someone
or your own death as a people?  Both are bad.

I doubt that I have to tell you how happy I was when I heard that the
Palestinians were finally talking to the Israelis, and peace was announced,
and how disappointed I was to hear that a suicide bomber blew that peace
agrement to hell ( pun intended ).

Greg H.

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] "Arrogance of Power"

2003-03-20 Thread mohamed hassan


Dear All
I am not a selfish man and with all due respect I have
signed up to this group and others to offer and get
help with my research on Bio fuel (Bio diesel) (an
area which although not as significant as the war is
as important), and not to a political discussion on
the validly of the war on Iraq or to answer and read
numerous opinions on the different propagandas that
those pro and ant spread.

After all in 200 year or so there will be no reason
for the war as all the fossil fuel will be gone so let
us follow the advice of 
Jennifer, Capt. USAFCan all this liberal
blame America crap20 of us may die now, so that
>20,000 don't die later...get over it..i'm IN the
military and you won't >see me whining...get back to
Bio-fuel matters...and CAN all this stupid and >Moot
political BS. Dissent once American troops are
deployed = giving >comfort, aid and incentive to our
enemies, thus increasing the number of >AMERICAN and
Iraqi deaths likelyLets talk 
BIO-FUELS!!.. 

and march on forward with our research after all
between the Iraqis burning the oil and the American
army using   Millions of barrels a day  of the stuff
to march in and destroy the axis of evil by force and
no diplomacy the need for bio fuel might be sooner
than later.

Yours truly,
An ignorant man to the human value of 2 as I can
only see the 20 of today 

--- martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Pull your hat down lower. Feels better to say you're
> right because your 
> government says so, doesn't it. Dissent does NOT
> equal treason. I repeat 
> because people with their crap logic don't
> understand it: DISSENT DOES 
> NOT EQUAL TREASON.
> People who say they don't want the military over
> there are commiting 
> treason, right?
> I have the right to disagree with the government.
> The people HAVE A 
> RIGHT TO DISAGREE. If you insist on making a woven
> crap connection 
> between dissent and treason, PROVE IT.
> 
> For example, I can prove my argument:
> Statement: "I disagree with military action in the
> middle east"
> Argument #1: giving comfort
> Reply: No matter how many Iraqis I tell, none of
> them are going to feel 
> better knowing I disagree with my government.
> Argument #2: aid
> Reply: How is protesting giving aid? I didn't give
> anyone any sort of aid.
> Argument #3: incentive
> Reply: Is someone going to be more likely to fight
> knowing I don't like 
> what's going on? No. If 2 people are in a fist
> fight, are they going to 
> care what the other person's mother thinks?
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> >Can all this liberal blame America crap20 of us
> may die now, so that 
> >20,000 don't die later...get over it..i'm IN
> the military and you won't 
> >see me whining...get back to Bio-fuel matters...and
> CAN all this stupid and 
> >Moot political BS. Dissent once American troops are
> deployed = giving 
> >comfort, aid and incentive to our enemies, thus
> increasing the number of 
> >AMERICAN and Iraqi deaths likelyLets talk 
> BIO-FUELS!!..
> >   
>   
> > Jennifer, Capt. USAF
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> ---
> Martin Klingensmith
> http://nnytech.net/
> http://infoarchive.net/
> 
> 
> 


__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[biofuel] Re: Crude Oil Price

2003-03-20 Thread murdoch


>so are we caught between a rock and a hard place here? if oil prices go up, 
>biodiesel becomes viable. but the economy goes bad.  Prices go down, 
>biodiesel remains the domain of a few religious zealots...
>
>personally I'd like to see tripple ledger accounting enacted in teh energy 
>industry... 

It's a terrible spot to be in, but I know what I think I'd like to see
(aside from good accounting if it isn't already there): higher
sustained oil prices, for awhile longer, and then a breather.  My
reasoning is that I see it as a "pay me now or pay me later"
situation.  It's already "later" in my view, but before it gets much
much later, I'd like to see enough sustained high prices to get a real
*move* toward less oil usage.  In my view, this recent drop came
before it was "enough".

I don't want to see $20 per gallon at the pump for the next ten years
(i.e., such high sustained prices as to completely wreck everything
everywhere forever), just sustained enough for this "round" to bring
things home and get some movement.  

Arguably, we saw an example of this with California's last energy
crisis.  Not to get overly into it, but there was some real shock and
anguish there, but at least a sincere desire to change things in a
permanent way is something that half-came out of it.

I see the danger here that, with a repetition of the price action of
the previous war, it will allow the powers-that-be to get away with a
smug complacent assumption (I am working on the theory that this is
what they're thinking though I haven't seen it yet) that, once we can
settle most of the dust, we can return to a prolonged period of
more-than-reasonable low-priced plentiful oil imports.  We got
Venezuela to "go along" (sending Jimmy Carter down there, even) when
they were a *very* big part of the reason for the recent price rises,
and I don't know what's happened in Nigeria.  Once the powers that be
see that most of the ducks are back in the row, I fear that there will
be a return to do-nothing, say-nothing think-nothing care-nothing on
the issue of assessing and ameliorating America's oil import
dependency problem, and its terrible terrible consequences to the
economy and to civilized international human behaviour.

There has been a lot of annecdotal evidence here in many groups that
'everyday' people were starting to ask important questions about where
they could get better mileage vehicles and non-oil-users.  This just
in from an EV group, just as an example:

>I've been getting more people asking where they can buy one now that gas 
>prices have gone up.
>
>There's also the "no war for oil" contingency, who honk and wave ;-)
>
>I love never buying gas - it was quite a shock last time I had to fill up 
>my wife's car!

So, these sentiments and questions and trends were good.  A little
longer,  to the point where harder questions had been asked of
everyone involved and some *actions* had started, might have been
enough for this "round".

MM

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel]

2003-03-20 Thread


 Like Bush you do not like to hear any voice or reason. You obvously do not 
value Democracy and freedom of speech. Speaking out is not a crime and it is 
enshrined in the constitution which you as a soldier are obliged to defend. PS 
Do you relaize that because of the illegal nature of the war individual actions 
of soldiers can result in legal proceedings against them for war crimes?--- On 
Thu 03/20, < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
From: [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:48:09 
ESTSubject: Re: [biofuel] "Arrogance of Power"Can all this liberal blame 
America crap20 of us may die now, so that 20,000 don't die later...get 
over it..i'm IN the military and you won't see me whining...get back to 
Bio-fuel matters...and CAN all this stupid and Moot political BS. Dissent once 
American troops are deployed = giving comfort, aid and incentive to our 
enemies, thus increasing the number of AMERICAN and Iraqi deaths likelyLets 
talk  BIO-FUELS!!.. 
  Jennifer, Capt. USAF



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor





ADVERTISEMENT

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlBiofuels 
list archives:http://archive.nnytech.net/Please do NOT send Unsubscribe 
messages to the list address.To unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 


___
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!



Greg H.,

If you see any parallels with Northern Ireland, you have managed
with something that I never heard someone do before. Please
read and learn more about both situations and then try to think
again. Or do you really think that they have refugee camps in
Northern Ireland and that any side have expropriated the other
ones property and refuse to hand it back and instead force you
to spend your life in a refugee camp.

Do not try to bring this up again with me, without better knowledge
of what we are talking about. Maybe you should visit Israel, Palestine,
Ireland and Northern Ireland also, it helps to have met the people
that you have so strong opinions about and see for yourself how
they live. You will discover that they are people with dreams and
other ambitions in life, similar to ours.

Hakan


At 03:00 PM 3/20/2003 -0700, you wrote:

>- Original Message -
>From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 13:49
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS
>INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
>
>
>
> > One day when you feel for it, please try to imagine the situation of
> > a Palestinian, who under duress of war fled from his home in Israel.
> > When the war was over and Israel occupied the territory where your
> > refugee camp was located, you were denied the right to return back
> > home by force. Continue then to think of all other human right you
> > and your family have been denied for more than 35 years and that
> > you have seen your children and grand children growing up in a
> > ghetto, without availability to education or a future. You have seen
> > your children and grand children develop hate and disparity, as more
> > natural feelings than love and compassion. You have been suppressed
> > and denied normal human rights for 35 years and your children and
> > grand children does not know what freedom is. You have seen your
> > family and friends die as "collateral damage", when throwing stones at
> > the soldiers who occupies your refugee camp.
> >
> > Until you try to go through this thought process, I will close this
> > discussion as meaningless. I do not have to ask you to put yourself
> > in the situation of an Israeli, who lives at a constant fear that what he
> > was party of creating, will come back and hunt him.
> >
>
>I have tried, to think it through.  I keep coming back to the fact if the
>other side offers peace, and someone on my side screws it up in the name of
>doing it for me, and causes more problems for me, who should I blame, the
>other side or my side?  Should I bide my time, not make things worse and try
>to make things better slowly, or should I try go out and kill someone that
>had nothing to do with why I am in the position I am.
>
>
> > It is a very serious and difficult situation and have to be approached
> > accordingly, with respect and understanding for both parties.
> >
>
>Your right,  I see parallels in the UK and the IRA, but, it looks like they
>are well on the way to peace, because, both sides got their act together,
>not just one, but, in Israel, from every thing I have seen, it seems that
>one side has tried more than the other side, in fact one of them does not
>want the other to survive at all let alone in peace.  I have a very, very
>hard time getting past that, and if you can help all the better.  It's one
>thing to live in peace, but, another to live in a situation were you have to
>repress a people in just order to survive.  What is better, repress someone
>or your own death as a people?  Both are bad.
>
>I doubt that I have to tell you how happy I was when I heard that the
>Palestinians were finally talking to the Israelis, and peace was announced,
>and how disappointed I was to hear that a suicide bomber blew that peace
>agrement to hell ( pun intended ).
>
>
>Greg H.
>
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[biofuel] More from my pal

2003-03-20 Thread milliontc


Hello James

Have to ask you to cut the obscenities in future please.
Yes, I remembered just seconds after hitting the 'send' key.
Sorry all
J
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] san diego organic farming article

2003-03-20 Thread murdoch


On Fri, 21 Mar 2003 04:00:17 +0900, you wrote:

>>http://www.sdcitybeat.com/article.php?id=631

If the author didn't make use of this conference, then I think it's a
fair bet she's lurked on one like it.  But, aside from the excellence
of this article, I have found in revisiting it that Citybeat seems to
be a good solid local free paper.  Some thoughts:

Citybeat took over and incorporated into it Slamm magazine which used
to be the local music weekly.  The only thing I used to read there was
an offbeat iconoclastic Ed Becker article, but in looking at CityBeat
yesterday I saw at least three articles that interested me, including
one that I had thought to write myself but I see they've already sort
of done it (Ray Bradbury, the sci fi author, gives speeches through
the local learning annex, and they did something on it).  Today I saw
this week's issue and the cover story was a well-done discussion of
police vice stings on prostitutes and Johns (such as during the super
bowl), which included some solid coverage of the opposite point of
view.  This is something you'd not see enough coverage of in the local
paper.  I mention it because it's yet another "vice" (The Drug War
being the other) that is in need of changes in the law in my view.

The other major free weekly is The Reader, something that also used to
be in Chicago.  I don't know how much other nationality there is to
The Reader or Citybeat.  

The Reader tends to have one big important cover story per week.  I
haven't read either of these that much, nor some of the others, such
as Espresso a not-bad-just-my-opinion Coffee House paper.  But I've
always thought the Reader, with its base of Classified Income, was
stupid, because they make it impossible to access their
occassionally-good articles.  I've read things I so very much wanted
to pass on to folks outside of San Diego, in the Reader, and was
unable to do so, because of their damnable reprint policies.

Whoever is running Citybeat is *not* doing that (Halleluja).  Their
archives appeared to be solid when I was there.  I also saw a superb
cartoon on the Oil crisis, but this required a subscription to Salon
magazine for access.  Well, alright, at least someone who was willing
to pay could see it.  Not really so with the Reader.

Anyway, since you are interested in media issues, I thought I'd pass
on that I think someone not-completely-stupid is trying at Citybeat.

MM

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: Two lists - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1449


Keith,

I see what your talking about, sort of a "Catch - 22". I guess that what I'm
looking at is the extreme between " What the best way to make BioDiesel is "
or " Methanol or Ethanol, which is more fuel efficient " and " Just say no
to war " or " Bush is the best ", I bet anyone can tell the difference
between BioFuel and Politics from the examples I gave. Granted " Big Oil is
paying for the War " It would be a little more into the gray areas, and a
subject like " Jump strait to BioFuels or slowly integrate them ? "  would
be grayer still.

When subjects cover laws, national history, foreign policies, energy
policies, and things of that nature, it is more in the realm of politics,
and can be labeled as such.  I have taken part in issues of political
nature, but, now thinking about it, how does debating Israeli / Palestinian
issues help BioFuels?  Yes I'm guilty of this, I'm not thrilled about the
side tracking, but, something like that is strictly political in nature and
can be labeled [Politics].

When subjects cover things like how-to's, diesel conversions, efficiencies
of different types of transportation, these things could be listed as
[Basics], unless the topic worked it's way to what was listed above, then
change it to [Politics] or [Grey Area] as needed.

Things that are in the realm between the two could be labeled [Grey Area]

I agree that political discussions are vital to the future of biofuels,
especially when laws are about them, but, issues about foreign policies and
what caused a particular war or other such stuff can start to obscure the
nitty gritty ( can't see the forest because of the trees ).

I'm not talking about denying people things or " shove everything out of
gear " as you put it, I'm talking about giving people the ability to get a
higher "signal to noise ratio", by letting them set up to 3 rules into their
computer, and let the computer do the sorting.  If they just want to deal
with the [Basics], then they won't have to manually weed through all the
[Grey Areas] or [Politics] to get to the basic stuff.

I'll be honest, there are times that I would just as soon let allot the
political stiff go to rot, and sometimes I do, because it can get annoying
to me.  I was just thinking that there could be a way for the people to want
to avoid what they perceive as a high noise to signal, while still gaining
benefits from the list and still add to the list.  The merit would be in
that it would let everyone chose ( to an extent ) what is good and what is
bad for them. You might even find that you gain a slightly more diverse
group, because the people who want less politics and more hardcore chemistry
( for lack of a better term ) stay around.  If I was new to the list in the
past month, I wouldn't have stayed around, more that a week or so.   As it
is I've been around long enough to know that sooner or later things will
swing the other way.

Greg H.

- Original Message -
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 14:15
Subject: Re: Two lists - was Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 1449


> Hi Greg\
>
>
> One reason (of quite a few) would be that trying to make decisions on
> what's "political" and what's not with which all would agree would be
> as impractical and impossible as making a list of biofuels topics
> that everyone would have to stick to.
>
> >"Political discussion is VITAL to the future of biofuels."
> >http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=21715&list=BIOFUEL
> >
> >(No, that wasn't me...)
>
> ... though lots of listers have said something similar, and about
> wildly different things.
>
> Another reason is that I have a very strong impression that these
> complaints almost all come from a small group of people who are not
> at all representative. I'm reluctant to take any steps to change
> anything on their behalf because that more or less has to be an
> imposition on the majority, without any real merit to it, no real
> improvement to the list from the majority's point of view - no
> improvement to the way the list addresses biofuels issues, and
> probably a diminishment.
>



>
> So Greg, you want me to shove everything out of gear to cater to this
person?
>
> regards
>
> Keith
>
>



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] "Arrogance of Power"

2003-03-20 Thread Jack Kenworthy


jennifer,
hmmm, how to start...your response intrigues me.  Partially because (though I 
concede emotion is a difficult thing to read accurately in an e-mail) you sound 
quite angry.  A rapid angry response - and poorly justified (sound familiar?).  
It seems that more than your desire to have the list return to discussion of 
biofuels, it is your intention to denounce those posts (or posters) that you 
consider "liberal" and which seem to "blame America" regardless of their 
content.  What exactly is so liberal about Senator Byrd's Senate floor speech?  
Since when did "glorying in the wisdom of the country's founders" and 
revellling in the wisdom and magnificance of the country's legal foundations" 
become moot?  
We forget ourselves today.  In fact we are made to forget.  I work every 
day with a Navy SEAL who has started the school and research institute that I 
am now a part of.  Our mission is to seek out and develop new ways of living 
well in the places where we find ourselves and to find menaningful ways to 
teach those skills and ideas to young people, both US (mostly) and Bahamian, 
who have the lost any sense that they belong to a place and that it matters to 
them or they to it.  We realize that "sustainability", however you define it, 
is not about wind generators, solar panels or biodiesel - it is about people 
and places - about laughter and friendship.  These are the things we would like 
to "sustain".  These are also things that we forget today, which is convenient, 
because all of them happen also to be at great risk in Iraq right now.  I live 
in a place at the furthest remote end of a tired island where people are poor 
and unemployment is staggering and the guiding presence of strong leadership is 
nearly absent.  I wake up every day and need to ask myself how I will work 
harder today to see that my efforts are not misplaced, in vain or, worse, moot. 
 Yesterday I returned from taking 15 students of various backgrounds on a 4 dya 
kayak trip tp help them discover this place.  It is likely that these trips do 
more for me by way of rejuvination and distance from the buzz of computers and  
motors, than it does for the students.  Upon my return yesterday evening I 
learned we were bombing Iraq.  I sat at a bar with some Bahamian friends and 
watched as Bush spoke with that air of being "bathed in the light of his own 
certainty" about the path for a war which has no good reason.  His ambiguity 
was stark and his lack of sincerity and justification was utterly frightening.  
When I think about what it is that matters (what we should be putting billions 
of dollars in money, and resources toward - not to mention people) in the world 
right now it is not the vengeful actions of administration cronies who are 
enacting a long pent up vision of widespread US hegemony and preemptive 
military strikes, in order to serve the those thatalready have more than they 
could ever need.  In Robert Byrd's statement (and hundreds of other posts and 
articles) I found something so much more Patriotic and sincere and SANE than 
the picture I see before me in the "news".  Moot?  This war has been called 
"illegal" by France, Germany and Russia; the independant press has labeled it 
the worst moral transgression in a generation.  There are efforts mounting 
across the United States to have Bush impeached and, moreover tried as a war 
criminal.  I am sorry but this is not moot, stupid, or whining.  Your status, 
rank, or whatever you have in the military concerns me very little and neither 
lends weight nor detracts from your position.  I know many people in the 
military, either past or present, who speak with equal eloquance either for or 
dramatically against war in Iraq.  What concerns me is what we do now.  It will 
require far greater work to undo the web of mistakes that has led the US into 
this intractable position than would have been necessary a week ago.  No one 
has woken up in a safer world today than they did yesterday.  I can only hope 
that the sheer absurdity of Bush's "plan" will spark enough latent minds to 
fufill their responsibility as citizens (of any nation) that there may be some 
good that comes of this tragedy.
If you have made it this far in my ramble ( i am tired), here is a little 
biofuel bit.  I made 110 gallons of beautiful, clear biodiesel today and 
finished washing another 150 that I will be able to give to local residents to 
help them run mixers for a local playground construction project.  Soon they 
will know how to make it themselves.  
one foot after the next..
jk
Jack Kenworthy
Sustainable Systems Director
The Cape Eleuthera Island School
242-359-7625 ph. 954-252-2224 fax
www.islandschool.org
  - Original Message - 
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 11:48 AM
  Subject: Re: [biofuel] "Arrogance of Power"


  Can all this liberal blame America crap20 of us may die now, so that 
  20,000 don't

Re: [biofuel] In Iraq Crisis, Networks Are Megaphones for Official Views

On Fri, 21 Mar 2003 03:57 am, John E Hayes III wrote:
> I have been mostly deleting all the political discussion recently... In
> addition to it making me ill, I just don't have anything to say.
> >>>
> >>>Why not?
> >>
> >>A number of reasons.  I have been inundated with it, and none of it will
> >>change my mind and I doubt I'll change anyone elses.
> >
> >People's minds, behaviour and actions are very often changed through
> >discussion with other people. That has happened here quite a lot.
>
> "In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a
> really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would
> actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them
> again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should,
> because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it
> happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that
> happened in politics or religion."   -- Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP keynote
> address
>
> Cheers
>
> John

Yes, it has happened to me too. Several times. One time I remember 
particularly was arguing with my wife until 3 am in the morning that science 
and religion were not related. She finally convinced me that they were 
related. then I could go to sleep (to be clear, she was happy to leave it. I 
kept arguing. I think she was vaguely bemused. Tired, but bemused. Frustrated 
but bemused. I know she likes me because I woke up free of bruises :-) )

I guess my own lack of clarity has made it very hard for me to articulate 
exactly why it is wrong to go to war here. I mean, I can think of dozens of 
reasons, but without a clear idea as to why the US (if living in the US 
substitute "washington", if in Washington substitute "the folks on the hill" 
or whatever...) wants to go to war so badly.

-- 
Dr Paul van den Bergen
Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures
caia.swin.edu.au
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
IM:bulwynkl2002
It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one.

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!

On Fri, 21 Mar 2003 04:13 am, Greg and April wrote:
> >Suicide bomber is a very new
> > phenomena
>
> Not realy.  It goes back to at least WW2.

I believe this idea is older than that... atleast back to the 6th century??? 
Assasins...

-- 
Dr Paul van den Bergen
Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures
caia.swin.edu.au
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
IM:bulwynkl2002
It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one.

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[biofuel] Re: PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!

2003-03-20 Thread CornFed (Randy)

--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Greg H.,
> 
> If you see any parallels with Northern Ireland, you have managed
> with something that I never heard someone do before. Please
> read and learn more about both situations and then try to think
> again. Or do you really think that they have refugee camps in
> Northern Ireland and that any side have expropriated the other
> ones property and refuse to hand it back and instead force you
> to spend your life in a refugee camp.

Yes Hakan essentially that is essentially what did happened at the 
beginning of the UK/Ireland conflict more than 200 hundred years 
ago.  British troops invaded Scotland and confiscated property in the 
name of the king.  The disposesed scottish property owners were 
appointed as Land Managers and Barons in Ireland. Most of the Irish 
farmers were forced to rent small plots from these barons.  Then many 
years later during the potato blight catastrophy, the Irish people 
and some Scottish people also were given the choice of starvation or 
immigration. Some people still argue to this day (true or not) 
whether agricultural foodstuffs were taken from Ireland to the main 
island of Britain at the starvation expense of the Irish people.  
The "Refuge Camps" in this argument is then identified as Canada and 
the United States and the 'Refugees' were called immigrants and 
pioneers.  They left because they were starving and they had no 
future under the conditions that were present at that time in 
Ireland.  

that is my opinion.  and I see the connection parallel between 
Ireland and Palestine.  

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] Cheap chow

2003-03-20 Thread David Hodge


I'm sorry. Did I miss something? 
What does this have to do with Biodiesel?


dave


--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
http://www.economist.com/books/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1621733
> Economist.com
> 
> Food safety
> 
> Cheap chow
> 
> Mar 6th 2003
>  From The Economist print edition
> 
> Safe Food: Bacteria, Biotechnology, and Bioterrorism
> By Marion Nestle
> 
> University of California Press; 366 pages; $27.50
> and £19.95
> 
> How the Cows Turned Mad
> By Maxime Schwartz. Translated by Edward Schneider
> 
> University of California Press; 238 pages; $24.95
> and £17.95
> 
> LOBBYING groups often try to disguise a financial
> self-interest by 
> clumsily dressing up their arguments in the guise of
> concern for the 
> public. You see this tendency in the pharmaceutical
> industry and in 
> energy and lumber companies who like to tout their
> stewardship of the 
> environment. But nowhere, two new books argue, are
> these tactics more 
> of a cause for concern than in agribusiness.
> 
> Marion Nestle's "Food Safety: Bacteria,
> Biotechnology, and 
> Bioterrorism" looks at the way the American meat and
> biotechnology 
> industries have campaigned successfully on Capitol
> Hill against 
> stricter federal regulation, which the author argues
> has undermined 
> the safety of the food supply. Meanwhile, Maxime
> Schwartz's "How the 
> Cows Turned Mad" traces the origins of mad-cow
> disease over more than 
> two centuries, and reveals the fallout from the
> British government's 
> blind assurances that the disease could not be
> transmitted to humans.
> 
> Ms Nestle, who chairs the department of nutrition
> and food studies at 
> New York University and whose earlier book, "Food
> Politics", came out 
> last year, has an ear for a revealing anecdote. In
> 1999, she writes, 
> Rosemary Mucklow, the executive director of the
> National Meat 
> Association, lobbied against President Clinton's
> attempt to establish 
> a more thorough testing regime for E. coli 0157:H7,
> a potentially 
> deadly pathogen, by declaring the move to be just
> "another step in 
> this administration's obfuscation of the impeachment
> activities".
> 
> Ms Mucklow's organisation-which represents
> meatpackers and processors 
> who would have had to discard or reprocess meat
> found to be infected 
> under the new testing regime-argued on Capitol Hill
> that increased 
> microbial testing in meat could actually lead to a
> greater public 
> health risk since confident consumers might relax
> their own 
> safe-handling procedures at home. Ms Nestle finds
> similarly fuzzy 
> logic in the biotechnology industry. She tells how
> "Golden 
> Rice"-genetically engineered to contain
> beta-carotene-has been 
> promoted with claims that it might help prevent
> anaemia and blindness 
> in the developing world. Some independent
> researchers have suggested 
> that an adult would have to eat nine kilos of the
> rice every day to 
> meet Vitamin A requirements.
> 
> There is an implied moral critique here of
> Janus-faced profiteers who 
> ought really to admit that their arguments are
> specious. But Ms 
> Nestle's larger beef is that this behaviour has
> implications for 
> public health. The giant companies that now produce
> our food have 
> also become potential vectors for mass infection. A
> single lot of 
> hamburger meat at one processing plant was
> determined recently to 
> contain parts from 443 different cows.
> Slaughterhouses that process 
> 300 or more animals an hour and pass them through
> the same grinders 
> allow a single infected carcass potentially to taint
> tens of 
> thousands of kilos of meat.
> 
> Click to buy from Amazon.com: "Food Politics", by
> Marion Nestle (Amazon.co.uk).
> 
> New York University posts a biography of Marion
> Nestle.
> 
> Such opportunity for cross-contamination is
> especially worrisome in 
> the light of Mr Schwartz's book, which reveals that
> the alarmingly 
> durable infectious protein, or prion, responsible
> for mad-cow disease 
> and its human counterpart, variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob
> disease (vCJD), 
> can survive a formaldehyde bath and heat of 100°C
> for 30 minutes. Mr 
> Schwartz is a former director of the Institut
> Pasteur in France, and 
> his book maps out with great clarity the scientific
> investigation 
> into how scrapie-a disease that has long been known
> to afflict 
> sheep-came to cross the species barrier to cows, and
> then from cows 
> to humans.
> 
> Until recently, British and American cattlemen fed
> their livestock 
> meat-and-bone stuffs to produce heftier and more
> profitable animals, 
> even though cows are herbivores. The outbreak that
> resulted from 
> these practices led to the destruction of 4m British
> cows at an 
> estimated cost of $7 billion. Although
> epidemiologists at Imperial 
> College, London, recently lowered their forecast of
> how many people 
> are likely to get vCJD in the coming years from an
> earlier high of 
> 500,000 t

Re: [Biofuel] Crude Oil Price

On Fri, 21 Mar 2003 04:00 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>   Dr Paul van den Bergen
> Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures
> caia.swin.edu.au
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> IM:bulwynkl2002
> It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one.
>
> H Paul
>  Are there any on-line reviews?
> James

huh?

'scuse my non-comprehension here.

I can see a couple of things you could mean.

1) oil prices

A.  no idea.

2) Mistaken my quote "It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should 
have one." by Blank Reg (of Max Headroom fame) as a advert for an actual book 
I am somehow associated with.

A. I don't know. I encountered Max Headroom as a youngster. I came across this 
quote while trying to google for the email address of a friend of a friend 
who I knew worked for Zik, who ran(runs) zikzak, a name also derivitive from 
Max Headroom. Go google! your friend on the internet.

or 3) You realise 2) and are trying to confuse/joke with me... How could I 
tell? Inscrutable.   :-)

-- 
Dr Paul van den Bergen
Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures
caia.swin.edu.au
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
IM:bulwynkl2002
It's a book. Non-volatile storage media. Everyone should have one.

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] Re: PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!

2003-03-20 Thread Paul Schwartz


> that is my opinion.  and I see the connection parallel between
> Ireland and Palestine.

OK, Let me chime in on this.  There is a huge difference between the events
you describe and the current situation in Israel.

When the Irish and Scottish came here to the USA they became citizens and
were eventually integrated into our society--I am descended from these
people.  We, us Yanks, didn't herd them into refugee camps and leave them
there to rot. Irish ethnicity is the second largest discernable ethnic group
in this country, after Germans.  There has been an Irish-American president.

In the Middle East, the refugees are left in camps to rot and become
radicalized.  This is as much the fault of the refugee's host nation as
Israel.  The Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians and Egyptians are treating the
Palestinians like garbage and why doesn't anyone complain about that?

This is all about those who hate the USA and George Bush. Fine, but don't
wrap your prejudice and ignorant bigotry in any form of phony moralism. I'm
not in favor of a lot that my country does, but I know the difference
between civilized discourse and the infantile rantings of the emotionally
retarded and prejudiced.

Now, when this is all over George Bush will have to show that it was the
right thing to do.  If he can I expect an apology from those who threw
temper-tantrums; if not, we will vote him out next  year, or impeach him.
Contrary to popular opinion, we're not a bunch of idiots over here.

Paul




 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] Re: PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!

Wow Randy,

You have to read the history about the potato and the potato
blight first. The potato comes from the Andes in South America
and was brought to Europe by the Spanish. In the Andes there
are hundreds of varieties, growing on different highs and in
different soils. It spread throughout Europe and became a staple
food in Northern and Middle Europe.

The potato, is probably one of the few food products that stand
alone can satisfy the human needs. In Sweden the military have
investigated this as a part of what we needed for a readiness, in
case of a cut off from imported food. Several families lived for one
year only on potato and did not show any nutrient deficiencies.

When it was introduces in Ireland, the population grew three times
in 3-4 generations, due to the lower child death and a significant
higher average life span. Ireland standardized on only one variant
of potato, when the rest of Europe had minimum 3 to 4 variants.
When Europe was hit by the potato sickness, it hit the variant
that was grown on Ireland and all of it's potato was sick and the
people was starving. The other countries had difficulties, but
since it had several variants, it never became a starvation problem.
England that obviously had potato, but in smaller amounts, was
of course a suspect of foul play by the Irish, but the truth is that
the rest of Northern and Middle Europe also had surviving variants.

200 years ago, it was no refugee camps and very few land owners.
The Kings ruled and it was nearly no small scale farmers that at
the same time was land owner. A typical estate would be owned
by the Royals or other in the court, this estates was divided into
several smaller and autonomous production units (Farms) and
each one normally assigned to a family with some additional
workers. Around 150 - 200 years ago this farms started to be rented
by the employees, since they discovered that this kind of system
raised the output. In Sweden such an arrangement was called
"arrende". The King often had his soldiers on such a farms, to be
called up in case of war. The Swedish name for those was
"Soldattorp", if the soldier performed especially well he could
get the owner rights to his farm as a gratification. Today you
only get a medal.

Very interesting history, which I could follow in the contracts when
my grandfathers estate was sold after his death and we had to go
through, divide and move everything. One quite interesting thing
about employment contracts in Northern Sweden, was the clause
about how many days a week the employees could be served Salmon.
I had only heard about it and did not really believed it until I saw the
contracts myself. On our estate they only had to eat Salmon 5 days
a week and meat the other two days. All of this kind of things, was
given to the local museum, including a dedicated book by
H. C. Andersen.

We can take this about emigration an other time. But one interesting
thing is the word FUCK that is used so much in US, but not in UK.
The origin is probably the shortening in English for why prostitutes
was serving time. I have been told that it was "For Unlawful Carnal
Knowledge". So it was not only starving Irish people who was given
the choice to go to the colonies. By the way, the politicians that was
not welcome in UK any longer, was exported also.

The hard core criminals had to go to Australia. But I cannot really
see the parallels with the Palestinians in this, other than that they
also are losers and Americans do not like losers. Maybe that have
some historical background in the attitudes that the immigrants
had to the original population of America. I heard that they had
the expression "the best Indian is a dead Indian" and maybe we
have some sort of brotherly understanding here between Sharon
and Bush.

Hakan

At 12:39 AM 3/21/2003 +, you wrote:
>--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Greg H.,
> >
> > If you see any parallels with Northern Ireland, you have managed
> > with something that I never heard someone do before. Please
> > read and learn more about both situations and then try to think
> > again. Or do you really think that they have refugee camps in
> > Northern Ireland and that any side have expropriated the other
> > ones property and refuse to hand it back and instead force you
> > to spend your life in a refugee camp.
>
>
>Yes Hakan essentially that is essentially what did happened at the
>beginning of the UK/Ireland conflict more than 200 hundred years
>ago.  British troops invaded Scotland and confiscated property in the
>name of the king.  The disposesed scottish property owners were
>appointed as Land Managers and Barons in Ireland. Most of the Irish
>farmers were forced to rent small plots from these barons.  Then many
>years later during the potato blight catastrophy, the Irish people
>and some Scottish people also were given the choice of starvation or
>immigration. Some people still argue to this day (true or not)
>wheth

Re: [biofuel] Re: PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!

2003-03-20 Thread Andrew Lowe

On 21 Mar 2003 at 3:32, Hakan Falk wrote:

> 
> Wow Randy,
> 
> You have to read the history about the potato and the potato
> blight first. The potato comes from the Andes in South America
[SNIP]
...
...
...
[SNIP]
> Knowledge". So it was not only starving Irish people who was given the
> choice to go to the colonies. By the way, the politicians that was not
> welcome in UK any longer, was exported also.
> 
> The hard core criminals had to go to Australia.

Oi, hang on a moment here Hakan. You may be full bottle on salmon 
consumption in Sweden during the 17th-19th centuries but you are 
WAY off the mark when it comes to Australian history.   

Transportation to Australia was a "fate" that could befall 
anyone convicted of the most slight crime, stealing a loaf of bread, 
farting upwind of a nobleman, a bit of poaching etc etc. If you where 
a "hard core criminal" you most likely would find yourself dancing a 
jig at the end of a rope. Transportation to Australia was looked upon 
as a way of easing the overcrowding in the English gaols whilst 
populating the latest addition to the British empire, hence whilst the 
law might have looked upon the transportee's as criminals these 
people where also looked upon as being suitable to contibute to the 
empire after serving their seven years.

Now, back on topic for we "hard core ciriminals" down under 
;) I was driving from Sydney to Melbourne the other week down the 
Hume when I pulled into a truckstop just outside Holbrook, the 
submarine town. As I fuelled up the car I noticed an ad for "Biofuels 
Australia" hanging on the fence. According to the bloke behind the 
counter, it started out cheaper than dino but is at the same price, 
about AUD1/litre, but he said he can't get it at the momoent and 
people are asking for it. Price and scarcity is probably due to the 
drought as he said it was from 100% canola.

Regards,
Andrew Lowe

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[biofuel] [Conspiracy Theory / Politics] My theory Was: Two lists

2003-03-20 Thread csakima


Hey ... just thought of some odd political thoughts.

In this "whole" Iraqi mess . notice what is said "either you are
with us ... or against us".  As though one had only two choices in life.
Freeze that thought.

Remember I once said ... how the UN is kinda "using" the "bad boy Bush" ...
as a "reason" ... why we should all line up "under" the UN.  Such that all
the Presidents and Emperors and Prime Ministers get reduced down to mere
"senators" in a "global-level House of Representatives" ... er ... the UN
Security Council.  Locking them together as one "One World Global
Government".   Such that all of Earth's citizen's become subservient to a
"one world government.

IE: Government Slave.   Freeze THAT thought.

Now think of what Bush stands for.   Oil.   Corporate forces wanting to
Rip-off Saddam for his valuable resources.   So that they can charge the
highest "rent" for its use.  AHA!!  So that everyone become a "slave" to Big
Corporate.  Hm  "Corporate Slave".

Sound Familiar anyone?? As in Democrat  versus Republican??   Or
more correctly (GLOBAL) Democrat (all power leads up the the UN)  versus
(GLOBAL) Republican (all power leads up to all-power CEO's).

Sound Familiar anyone??  As to "only two choices in life"??   Government
Slave  or Corporate Slave??   "Two Choices"  or a Bush would say,
"either you are with us ... or against us".   Same sales pitch ... just at a
global level??

And what if I want neither??   What if I want something different??  Like to
be "Free"  for instance??

H..

Curtis

Get your free newsletter at
http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL


- Original Message -
From: Greg and April <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

 Yes I'm guilty of this, I'm not thrilled about the side tracking, but,
something like that is strictly political in nature and can be labeled
[Politics].

When subjects cover things like how-to's, diesel conversions, efficiencies
of different types of transportation, these things could be listed as
[Basics], unless the topic worked it's way to what was listed above, then
change it to [Politics] or [Grey Area] as needed.

Things that are in the realm between the two could be labeled [Grey Area]



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[biofuel] Fwd: War/Opposition/Rachel Corrie


>Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:49:42 -0800
>Subject: War/Opposition/Rachel Corrie
>To: "The Nation Magazine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>From: "The Nation Magazine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>As an aerial assault pummels Baghdad, US and British ground forces are
>beginning their drive toward the strategic city of Basra in the first
>stage of a full-scale invasionm of Iraq.
>
>In response, there are growing worldwide protests. Some of the biggest
>outbursts of opposition to the war are coming in Europe.
>
>In the US, the antiwar movement is calling for emergency actions
>nationwide. There are a wide range of actions being pursued, from mass
>email campaigns to urgent lobbying to militant civil disobedience to all
>sorts of direct action.
>
>For info on antiwar action in the US:
>http://www.thenation.com/directory/view.mhtml?t=040307
>
>At least 100,000 people marched through the Greek capital, Athens, today,
>many of them high school students. Tens of thousands of students in Italy
>staged spontaneous rallies in towns and cities all over the country. Eggs
>were thrown at the British consulate in Venice and police used tear gas to
>disperse demonstrators in Milan. More students staged a sit-in outside
>NATO headquarters in Naples. Germany, France and Britain also saw big
>demonstrations, many involving schoolchildren.
>
>The Nation is publishing a series of special reports on the global
>reaction to the war. Currently, you can read dispatches from China,
>Nigeria and Israel. Tomorrow, look for reports from England, France,
>Russia, Cuba and Mexico.
>
>All at: http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030407&s=dispatches
>
>Also see:
>
>Rachel Corrie's Echo by John Nichols
>http://www.thenation.com/thebeat/index.mhtml?bid=1&pid=505
>
>A Dream of War Comes True by David Corn
>http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=497
>
>Supporting the Troops by Matt Bivens
>http://www.thenation.com/outrage/index.mhtml?bid=6
>
>Iraq and Beyond by Nation Editors   (April 7, 2003)
>http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030407&s=editors
>
>And watch this space and www.thenation.com for continued war reporting,
>global commentary and antiwar activism.
>
>Best Regards,
>Peter Rothberg, The Nation
>


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[biofuel] Local TV Stations

2003-03-20 Thread Ken Provost


Our list has gotten so OT the last few days I'm
taking the liberty here of going even further
-- my apologies to those who aren't US residents
at the moment. I just saw on TV that downtown
San Francisco (50 miles north) is PARALYZED
with demonstrations at this moment. I went to
see what was happening in my own town
San Jose, and quickly discovered that there is
NO LOCAL TV STATION in San Jose any more
(not a small city, mind you -- over a million).
Well, there's a local station, sure, but they're
not showing local news.  They are a part of some
conglomerate or network something and they're
showing what's happening in San Francisco..

Say I wanna join some local demonstration in
my home town, and I wanna do it NOW. Not having
a local TV station to tell me what's happening
is sort of "disempowering."   :-)

So then I get thinking about "divide and conquer."

Anyway -- you other Americans -- you still
got local stations?  -K

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

RE: [biofuel] Local TV Stations

2003-03-20 Thread harley3

Ken:

Why do you need a local TV Station to tell you what to do?  

Harley
  -Original Message-
  From: Ken Provost [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 9:40 PM
  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [biofuel] Local TV Stations

  Our list has gotten so OT the last few days I'm
  taking the liberty here of going even further
  -- my apologies to those who aren't US residents
  at the moment. I just saw on TV that downtown
  San Francisco (50 miles north) is PARALYZED
  with demonstrations at this moment. I went to
  see what was happening in my own town
  San Jose, and quickly discovered that there is
  NO LOCAL TV STATION in San Jose any more
  (not a small city, mind you -- over a million).
  Well, there's a local station, sure, but they're
  not showing local news.  They are a part of some
  conglomerate or network something and they're
  showing what's happening in San Francisco..

  Say I wanna join some local demonstration in
  my home town, and I wanna do it NOW. Not having
  a local TV station to tell me what's happening
  is sort of "disempowering."   :-)

  So then I get thinking about "divide and conquer."

  Anyway -- you other Americans -- you still
  got local stations?  -K

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
  ADVERTISEMENT

  Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

  Biofuels list archives:
  http://archive.nnytech.net/

  Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
  To unsubscribe, send an email to:
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] GM 3.5L V6 Diesel

2003-03-20 Thread robert luis rabello

rpg wrote:

> Have been offered a GM V6 3.5litre diesel engine/gearbox combination to fit
> my Hilux.
> Can anyone give me some advice on the performance/reliability/spares
> situation for this engine. Have been told that the Holden petrol V6 is based
> on this engine, is this correct?
>
> regards   Paul Gobert.

Hello Paul!

It's basically the same engine as the ill-fated 5.7 liter diesel.  If you
take care of it, the thing will likely run for a very long time.  If it needs
rebuilding, you might consider head studs and longer bolts on the bottom end.
Good luck!

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for 
Trying!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] Fwd: War/Opposition/Rachel Corrie

2003-03-20 Thread robert luis rabello

Keith Addison wrote:

>
> >As an aerial assault pummels Baghdad, US and British ground forces are
> >beginning their drive toward the strategic city of Basra in the first
> >stage of a full-scale invasionm of Iraq.
> >
> >In response, there are growing worldwide protests. Some of the biggest
> >outbursts of opposition to the war are coming in Europe.

I've been listening to National Public Radio off and on during the day, and
I've been pleasantly surprised by the coverage.  One correspondent in Baghdad
said that she was put on a bus with other journalists in order to witness
"severe collateral damage" and "civilian casualties".  She said the bus drove
around for an hour and a half, but they didn't see anything to substantiate the
Iraqi claim.  After describing this, she was careful not to dismiss the claim,
but mentioned two possible explanations:

1.  The Information Ministry in Iraq is in such disarray, they couldn't
properly organize the trip for journalists.

2.  The claim about "severe collateral damage" couldn't be verified.

In either case, it says something about the effect of the Anglo American
attack.  She left the listeners to draw their own conclusions.

Also, the peace protests around the world and in the United States have
received a fair amount of coverage.  On balance, I have to say that the
coverage is not disproportionately favorable to American "official policy",
though it is certainly less critical than some of the news I'm hearing up here
in Canada.

Having said this, NPR was supposed to air a follow up to a recent feature
on electric vehicles and the lessening of the CARB standards in my home state.
According to activists on the EV list, the follow up story has been taped, but
I checked the NPR web site and it hasn't been aired.  I suppose war time
considerations have pre empted the story.

When I came back home from Baltimore in September of 2001, I told my wife
that the nation was in a very ugly mood.  What we're seeing now is the fruit of
that ugliness, but not all of us have been blinded by rage.  We could do a LOT
more to combat terrorism by increasing efficiency, reducing energy usage and
moving toward a sensible energy policy than will be accomplished by the best
case scenario playing out on the other side of the world right now.

Take away the funding for terrorists, and they won't be able to afford to
cross the ocean to get to us.

Adopt a more even handed policy in the Middle East, one that isn't blinded
by oil dependency and the Dispensationalist view concerning Israel, and we
might actually be able to make friends with Arabs.  I understand they are, by
and large, a hospitable people.  It's sad that we think we need to kill them in
order to solve our problems.

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments


>If that's what you think, you missed everything. I feel bad for you.

May George W. Bush and all his evil ilk roast in hell forever for 
this. Fire the ovens up on fossil-fuels and let them think about that 
for eternity.

Keith


>Steve Spence
>Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
>& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
>http://www.green-trust.org
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>- Original Message -
>From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 9:59 AM
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments
>
>
> > No Steve, I didn't miss anything. Not the announcement nor the foundation
>of
> > sand that he has built his house on over the last six months, nor his
>utter
> > disregard for the country that he swore to serve.
> >
> > He's a near sighted, impatient ass who can't see the benefit of letting
>the
> > full weight of global resources come to bear on a situation. He's boxed
>not
> > only himself into a corner with his impatience but an entire country.
> >
> > He's wreckless and dangerous on numerous fronts, whether it be
>environment,
> > domestic construction or global destruction.
> >
> > No. I didn't miss anything.
> >
> > Todd Swearingen
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Steve Spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 7:21 AM
> > Subject: Re: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments
> >
> >
> > > If you listened to what he had to say, maybe you'd realize it's not a
> > whim,
> > > and the lights are not going out. No, probably not.
> > >
> > > You missed a good one.
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve Spence
> > > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
> > > & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
> > > http://www.green-trust.org
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 9:58 PM
> > > Subject: [biofuel] National address in just a few moments
> > >
> > >
> > > > El presidente de USA is to make a public address in shortly after
>10:00
> > PM
> > > Eastern Standard Time this evening. That's only a few minutes from now.
> > > >
> > > > Not that I have any desire to hear a word that he has to say, but it
> > would
> > > be of value to know exactly when the lights get turned out and how many
> > > souls are lost to his whim.
> > > >
> > > > Todd Swearingen
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > > >
> > > > Biofuels list archives:
> > > > http://archive.nnytech.net/
> > > >
> > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> > >
> > > Biofuels list archives:
> > > http://archive.nnytech.net/
> > >
> > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Biofuels list archives:
> > http://archive.nnytech.net/
> >
> > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] "Arrogance of Power"


Hello Jennifer, Capt. USAF

>Can all this liberal blame America crap20 of us may die now, so that
>20,000 don't die later...get over it..i'm IN the military and you won't
>see me whining...get back to Bio-fuel matters...and CAN all this stupid and
>Moot political BS. Dissent once American troops are deployed = giving
>comfort, aid and incentive to our enemies, thus increasing the number of
>AMERICAN and Iraqi deaths likelyLets talk  BIO-FUELS!!..
>
> Jennifer, Capt. USAF

Please see this message: 
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=22825&list=biofuel

There's a little note to you at the end.

Best wishes

Keith Addison
List moderator


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!


Lord Balfour: "Zionism, be it right or wrong ... is of far profounder 
import than the desire and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now 
inhabit that ancient land."

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00pp0

The Balfour Declaration
November 2, 1917

During the First World War, British policy became gradually committed 
to the idea of establishing a Jewish home in Palestine (Eretz 
Yisrael). After discussions in the British Cabinet, and consultation 
with Zionist leaders, the decision was made known in the form of a 
letter by Arthur James Lord Balfour to Lord Rothschild. The letter 
represents the first political recognition of Zionist aims by a Great 
Power.

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's 
Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist 
aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in 
Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use 
their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, 
it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may 
prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish 
communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed 
by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the 
knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour




>Greg H.,
>
>If you see any parallels with Northern Ireland, you have managed
>with something that I never heard someone do before. Please
>read and learn more about both situations and then try to think
>again. Or do you really think that they have refugee camps in
>Northern Ireland and that any side have expropriated the other
>ones property and refuse to hand it back and instead force you
>to spend your life in a refugee camp.
>
>Do not try to bring this up again with me, without better knowledge
>of what we are talking about. Maybe you should visit Israel, Palestine,
>Ireland and Northern Ireland also, it helps to have met the people
>that you have so strong opinions about and see for yourself how
>they live. You will discover that they are people with dreams and
>other ambitions in life, similar to ours.
>
>Hakan
>
>
>At 03:00 PM 3/20/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >- Original Message -
> >From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: 
> >Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 13:49
> >Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS
> >INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
> >
> >
> >
> > > One day when you feel for it, please try to imagine the situation of
> > > a Palestinian, who under duress of war fled from his home in Israel.
> > > When the war was over and Israel occupied the territory where your
> > > refugee camp was located, you were denied the right to return back
> > > home by force. Continue then to think of all other human right you
> > > and your family have been denied for more than 35 years and that
> > > you have seen your children and grand children growing up in a
> > > ghetto, without availability to education or a future. You have seen
> > > your children and grand children develop hate and disparity, as more
> > > natural feelings than love and compassion. You have been suppressed
> > > and denied normal human rights for 35 years and your children and
> > > grand children does not know what freedom is. You have seen your
> > > family and friends die as "collateral damage", when throwing stones at
> > > the soldiers who occupies your refugee camp.
> > >
> > > Until you try to go through this thought process, I will close this
> > > discussion as meaningless. I do not have to ask you to put yourself
> > > in the situation of an Israeli, who lives at a constant fear that what he
> > > was party of creating, will come back and hunt him.
> > >
> >
> >I have tried, to think it through.  I keep coming back to the fact if the
> >other side offers peace, and someone on my side screws it up in the name of
> >doing it for me, and causes more problems for me, who should I blame, the
> >other side or my side?  Should I bide my time, not make things worse and try
> >to make things better slowly, or should I try go out and kill someone that
> >had nothing to do with why I am in the position I am.
> >
> >
> > > It is a very serious and difficult situation and have to be approached
> > > accordingly, with respect and understanding for both parties.
> > >
> >
> >Your right,  I see parallels in the UK and the IRA, but, it looks like they
> >are well on the way to peace, because, both sides got their act together,
> >not just one, but, in Israel, from every thing I have seen, it seems that
> >one side has tried more than the other side, in fact one of them does not
> >want the other to survive at all let alone in peace.  I have a very, very
> >hard time getting past that, and if you can

[biofuel] Fwd: [Burnveggies] excise tax, biodiesel, and war

2003-03-20 Thread girl mark


Hi all,
here's an interesting bit of info about what people wrongly call 'road 
tax'. It's from our regional (Bay Area and northern california) 
biodiesel/svo list, "burnveggies". For info on the list go see 
www.goblin.punk.net/mailman/listinfo/burnveggies



>from <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>
>EXCISE TAXES are taxes on things other than property and services. They 
>are taxes levied specifically for the purpose of doing business and not 
>supposed to be paid by the population generally; only by the person doing 
>the business, as when you buy fuel. They also are originally supposed to 
>be paid by corporations but they don't have a problem with passing them on 
>to us such as the 3% excise tax you pay each month with your phone bill. 
>Other excise taxes are on things like booze, cigs, boats, hot rods, etcetera.
>
>FUEL TAX and whether it really FIXES THE ROADS as was just suggested
>
>Last I checked the excise taxes on fuel in CA were both state and 
>federal--we've got the most expensive fuel in the country. The fed's put 
>on 18 cents a gallon. The state puts on another 18 cents. I think all 
>biodieselistas have thought of the tax issue in terms of "road 
>maintenance;" something we would all advocate. Anybody know that CA has 
>the highest percentage of qualified "very bad and in immediate need of 
>repair" roads of all fifty states. To counteract the state's budget crisis 
>Gov. Davis (who?) has suggested heavily raising the state fuel excise tax. 
>BTW it's higher on diesel fuel. From the safety of my Rabbit I say do it, 
>and do it again. Taking into account: the country's worst roads and the 
>country's worst budget crises of all time, the state excise tax probably 
>won't do much to maintain roads right now. The state has NEVER been 
>broker. As for the feds? Each time I fill up they are "losing" a dollar 
>eighty. Their PAPERWORK costs mo! re than that and they would lose money 
>even just TRYING to collect from me. So like was said, the feds don't seem 
>like they're really going to care but CA taxers might make some noise.
>
>WAR
>
>I know a little bit about this because I am a war tax resister. I don't 
>mind refusing to pay the federal government's 18 cent per gallon (more for 
>diesel) because no matter what they tell you,  ALL excise taxes go first 
>into the Federal Funds, that is the General Fund from which the gov't 
>allocates its budget and from which, this year, close to SEVENTY PERCENT 
>will go directly towards landmines, daisy cutters and moabs, tactical 
>nukes, and waging war. Thousands of people in this country pay their phone 
>bill after they have subtracted the federal excise tax, to remove one form 
>of financial complicity from war and militarism. Because it's so cost 
>ineffective for the IRS to go after such small amounts, most people never 
>hear from them after years of refusing to pay.  Are there any parallels 
>with biodiesel production? a few...
>
>--there are concrete reasons not to pay the federal fuel excise tax no 
>matter what
>
>--the IRS is much more likely to go after those who owe alot (biodiesel 
>manu's) than a little
>
>--they would lose money trying to get us small guys to switch
>
>
>--like telephone tax resistance, the collectors might RATHER that we stay 
>under the radar and do our thing.  They don't want phone tax resistance to 
>get out because it's so easy. They don't want biodiesel to get too popular 
>(which it might if they created a Wales-style stir by trying to 
>ban/tax/regulate it), because biodiesel is more or less SO easy to make 
>yourself!!
>Uh, my point is, not all of us are dodgers, as the BBC reported. By using 
>locally made fuel I am resisting the federal fuel excise tax because I 
>can't contribute to the killing of innocents in my name. A few things that 
>apply to standard war tax resistance that we could do with our 36 cents + 
>per gallon--don't lie about it, and don't just spend the refused 
>money--redirect it towards life-affirming purposes and organizations that 
>work for peace social justice and providing human needs. ok, over.
>peacenikc
>
>
>
>
>
> >Actually, we can thank our lucky stars for this particular bit of
> >
> >bureaucratic silliness. I believe it's biodiesel's status as an
> >
> >additive rather than a fuel that allows us Californians to make
> >
> >400 gallons a year without having to pay excise tax. -K
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Message: 2
> >Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:05:04 -0800
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >From: girl mark
> >Subject: Re: [Burnveggies] Fw: What is the ARB's position related to
> > "bio-diesel"?
> >
> >Ken,
> >Could you or someone clarify this post: I thought we were all tax evaders
> >at the moment. what is excise tax exactly? what other taxes are we subject
> >to? I've heard that the Feds really don't care but that our lovely state's
> >tax man may well start to care soon.
> > mark
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>--
>Protect your PC - Click here for 
>McAfee.com VirusS

Re: [biofuel] Cheap chow

>I'm sorry. Did I miss something?
>What does this have to do with Biodiesel?
>
>
>dave

Oh, several things...

By the way, this isn't a "biodiesel" list, it's a biofuels list.

Anyway, try reading these, for instance:
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=12007&list=BIOFUEL

http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=12561&list=BIOFUEL

Search around a bit, you'll find much more.

You haven't figured what Mad Cow Disease has to do with biodiesel? 
With the availability of feedstock? With what happens to a lot of WVO 
that was previously recycled as livestock feed, but not now?

Have you heard of the "food miles" issue? Briefly, food (?) you buy 
on a supermarket shelf in the US has travelled at least 1,500 miles 
to get there, by fossil-fuel powered transport of course. That has a 
lot to do with "cheap" chow. Do you think it might be better for the 
transport to use biofuels? Or is it a waste whatever fuel it uses? 
The push is towards locally-grown, locally-marketed food - 
community-based. The push for the future of biofuels is towards local 
production, decentralization - community-based. Or would you say it 
makes sense to truck biofuels long distances to local markets, 
whether the transport used is biofuels- or fossil-fuel powered? 
Again, a criticism of biofuels is that it would deprive starving 
nations of food - cheap chow, in other words. True or false? Do you 
know the answers? The archives does. But it wouldn't if we'd listened 
to people who whine: "What does this have to do with Biodiesel?" 
You'll find information in the archives on how large quantities of 
biofuels could be produced without the use of any land at all, on how 
biofuels can be and are produced as by-products of food production, 
without any dedicated land-use or fossil-fuel inpouts.

Topic-cops - huh!

Keith Addison
List moderator

>
>--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
>http://www.economist.com/books/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1621733
> > Economist.com
> >
> > Food safety
> >
> > Cheap chow
> >
> > Mar 6th 2003
> >  From The Economist print edition
> >
> > Safe Food: Bacteria, Biotechnology, and Bioterrorism
> > By Marion Nestle
> >
> > University of California Press; 366 pages; $27.50
> > and £19.95
> >
> > How the Cows Turned Mad
> > By Maxime Schwartz. Translated by Edward Schneider
> >
> > University of California Press; 238 pages; $24.95
> > and £17.95
> >
> > LOBBYING groups often try to disguise a financial
> > self-interest by
> > clumsily dressing up their arguments in the guise of
> > concern for the
> > public. You see this tendency in the pharmaceutical
> > industry and in
> > energy and lumber companies who like to tout their
> > stewardship of the
> > environment. But nowhere, two new books argue, are
> > these tactics more
> > of a cause for concern than in agribusiness.
> >
> > Marion Nestle's "Food Safety: Bacteria,
> > Biotechnology, and
> > Bioterrorism" looks at the way the American meat and
> > biotechnology
> > industries have campaigned successfully on Capitol
> > Hill against
> > stricter federal regulation, which the author argues
> > has undermined
> > the safety of the food supply. Meanwhile, Maxime
> > Schwartz's "How the
> > Cows Turned Mad" traces the origins of mad-cow
> > disease over more than
> > two centuries, and reveals the fallout from the
> > British government's
> > blind assurances that the disease could not be
> > transmitted to humans.
> >
> > Ms Nestle, who chairs the department of nutrition
> > and food studies at
> > New York University and whose earlier book, "Food
> > Politics", came out
> > last year, has an ear for a revealing anecdote. In
> > 1999, she writes,
> > Rosemary Mucklow, the executive director of the
> > National Meat
> > Association, lobbied against President Clinton's
> > attempt to establish
> > a more thorough testing regime for E. coli 0157:H7,
> > a potentially
> > deadly pathogen, by declaring the move to be just
> > "another step in
> > this administration's obfuscation of the impeachment
> > activities".
> >
> > Ms Mucklow's organisation-which represents
> > meatpackers and processors
> > who would have had to discard or reprocess meat
> > found to be infected
> > under the new testing regime-argued on Capitol Hill
> > that increased
> > microbial testing in meat could actually lead to a
> > greater public
> > health risk since confident consumers might relax
> > their own
> > safe-handling procedures at home. Ms Nestle finds
> > similarly fuzzy
> > logic in the biotechnology industry. She tells how
> > "Golden
> > Rice"-genetically engineered to contain
> > beta-carotene-has been
> > promoted with claims that it might help prevent
> > anaemia and blindness
> > in the developing world. Some independent
> > researchers have suggested
> > that an adult would have to eat nine kilos of the
> > rice every day to
> > meet Vitamin A requirements.
> >
> > There is an implied moral critique here of
> > Janus-faced profiteers who
> > ought really t

[biofuel] Re: PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT

2003-03-20 Thread Andrew Lowe

On 21 Mar 2003 at 3:32, Hakan Falk wrote:

> 
> Wow Randy,
> 
> You have to read the history about the potato and the potato
> blight first. The potato comes from the Andes in South America
[SNIP]
...
...
...
[SNIP]
> Knowledge". So it was not only starving Irish people who was given
> the choice to go to the colonies. By the way, the politicians that
> was not welcome in UK any longer, was exported also.
> 
> The hard core criminals had to go to Australia.

Oi, hang on a moment here Hakan. You may be full bottle on 
salmon consumption in Sweden during the 17th-19th centuries but 
you are WAY off the mark when it comes to Australian history.   

Transportation to Australia was a "fate" that could befall 
anyone
convicted of the most slight crime, stealing a loaf of bread, farting
upwind of a nobleman, a bit of poaching etc etc. If you where a "hard
core criminal" you most likely would find yourself dancing a jig at
the end of a rope. Transportation to Australia was looked upon as a
way of easing the overcrowding in the English gaols whilst populating
the latest addition to the British empire, hence whilst the law might
have looked upon the transportee's as criminals these people where
also looked upon as being suitable to contibute to the empire after
serving their seven years.

Now, back on topic for we "hard core ciriminals" down under 
;) I was driving from Sydney to Melbourne the other week down the 
Hume when I pulled into a truckstop just outside Holbrook, the 
submarine town. As I fuelled up the car I noticed an ad for "Biofuels 
Australia" hanging on the fence. According to the bloke behind the 
counter, it started out cheaper than dino but is now at the same 
price, about AUD1/litre, but he said he can't get it at the moment but 
people are asking for it. Price and scarcity is probably due to the 
drought as he said it was from 100% canola.

 Regards,
  Andrew Lowe

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[biofuel] off topic ontopic was Re: Local TV Stations

2003-03-20 Thread girl_mark_fire

Let's try this "what';s offtopic and what's ontopic' thing for just 
one message.

ONTOPIC Ah, that's why we saw so much of you on the local biodiesel 
list today , Ken. no TV!

OFFTOPIC anyway folks, if you're in the situation Ken's in, get on 
the internet and see if there's an Indymedia listing for your 
area/country.
 www.indymedia.org uploads stories from just about anyone and is a 
good source of underreported info on dissent in the US. It's where 
you'd go to find what Ken was asking about.

OFFTOPIC 
I got up today at 6 am to go rage at the state of things via the SF 
traffic today (only way to get the issue of dissent any press 
unfortunately) but 
ONTOPIC!
had a horrid biodiesel mess to deal with instead. My outdoor 
biodiesel site has a huge lake in the corner of the parking lot- 
where I had to put my processors- and I had some minor leak in a drum 
a couple nights ago. The little leak spread all over the big old 
lake. 
 OFFTOPIC
Mr Biosmell came over at 7 to encourage me to go protest in SF and I 
declined. ONTOPIC! I felt like a super chump as I moped around my 
site all day connecting hoses and doing plumbing and pumping out 50 
gallons of rainwater over to the compost pile and collecting greasy 
rags and consolidating glycerine. OFFTOPIC waaah! One motto of the SF 
shutdown was 'no business as usual' and it felt odd to be going about 
the most mundane business as usual- ONTOPIC sweeping up a greasy 
muddy biodiesel mess with the radio on and OFFTOPIC phone interviews 
with people in Baghdad playing on Democracy Now on the radio. People 
in our ONTOPIC! biodiesel co-op tried pretty hard to organize a 
concerted biodieselers' presence on the streets but with OFFTOPIC! 
three protests to choose from (SF, Oakland, and Berkeley) and 
everybody already set on one or the other it was a bit much to 
coordinate on a days' notice. We decided to go over to the upcoming 
Saturday one as a group after our ONTOPIC beginners' liter batch 
training instead. It's been interesting watching the biodiesel co-op 
transform into a quite vocal OFFTOPIC antiwar group, people trying to 
make the ONTOPIC biofuels- HEY!OFFTOPIC oilwar connection more 
visible to the average local. 
well while my fellow ONTOPIC biodiesel comrades were out in the 
OFFTOPIC streets having a picnic in the intersections, I drove OOPS 
THAT'S ONTOPIC! over the bridge right by the Chevron refinery 
(ONTOPIC) and went to go look at some ONTOPIC!! industrial 
stills. YAY! I bought about three of them for my biodiesel 'cell' 
and a couple of other people. Kind of like the one posted here 
recently as having been on (oops- on-off?-on? off??? ) ebay recently. 
So methanol (still! ontopic)recovery here I come, along with a few of 
my friends. WHoop dee doo. They're big units for removing whatever 
boils from whatever solids is in it. Yay. 

mark

 --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Our list has gotten so OT the last few days I'm
> taking the liberty here of going even further
> -- my apologies to those who aren't US residents
> at the moment. I just saw on TV that downtown
> San Francisco (50 miles north) is PARALYZED
> with demonstrations at this moment. I went to
> see what was happening in my own town
> San Jose, and quickly discovered that there is
> NO LOCAL TV STATION in San Jose any more
> (not a small city, mind you -- over a million).
> Well, there's a local station, sure, but they're
> not showing local news.  They are a part of some
> conglomerate or network something and they're
> showing what's happening in San Francisco..
> 
> Say I wanna join some local demonstration in
> my home town, and I wanna do it NOW. Not having
> a local TV station to tell me what's happening
> is sort of "disempowering."   :-)
> 
> So then I get thinking about "divide and conquer."
> 
> Anyway -- you other Americans -- you still
> got local stations?  -K

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [biofuel] Local TV Stations

2003-03-20 Thread MH

 Damn it Mark, I wet my trousers LOL!!! 
 You and your off-n-on again topics. 

 Ken wrote:
> 
> Say I wanna join some local demonstration in
> my home town, and I wanna do it NOW. Not having
> a local TV station to tell me what's happening
> is sort of "disempowering."   :-)
> 
> So then I get thinking about "divide and conquer."
> 
> Anyway -- you other Americans -- you still
> got local stations?  -K

 Hello Ken,
 Interesting.  Your probably aware of your local
 Peace and Justice organization webpage @
 http://www.sanjosepeace.org 

 And many others around the USA & world @ http://unitedforpeace.org 

 I've been listening to http://www.democracynow.org 
 about some of the latest news reports as Mark suggested.  

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: Sasol - was [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT REPORTERS


>This Sasol plant in South Africa sounds interesting.  Any connection 
>to the German technology?

Well, yes, of course - didn't you read my first message? It's at the 
bottom, but I'll put it here at the top:

>  >  Not so. This is what happened - posted here previously by a list member:
>  >
>  >  > "One of our oldest scientists, now 84 yrs. old, was responsible for
>  >  >going into Germany post WWII and uncovering the remains of Hitler's
>  >  >synthetic fuels machine which had been bombed out. I'm speaking of
>  >  >Fischer-Tropsch oily-based paraffins which are hydrocracked down
>  >  >into shorter chains for synthetic gasoline, jet fuel and diesel. He
>  >  >brought back some of the original German scientists who'd perfected
>  >  >this technology which utilized coarse, low-grade brown German coal
>  >  >as feedstock. Three times he tried to start-up an American version
>  >  >of synthetic hydrocarbon fuels in the GTL arena and was blocked. As
>  >  >the highest ranking American energy technologist post WWII, he
>  >  >couldn't figure this out. It was over 20 years later that he
>  >  >realized that the late John Rockefeller of Standard Oil [Exxon] had
>  >  >been the politic behind the scenes, making sure that his new,
>  >  >alternative fuel ideas did not materialize. This scientist then took
>  >  >his blueprints for the first major GTL project and gave them to
>  >  >Sasol who built his first coal gasification device back in 1953 and
>  >  >it is still operating today. Sasol from South Africa is the oldest
>  >  >synthetic fuels producer globally."

---

>We have in Canada, a massive store of petroleum in the Athabasca Tar 
>Sands.  Estimates are that it is 400 times (or was it 4,000) times 
>the known regular world oil reserves.  It is oil soaked shale, 
>costly to extract.
>
>It appears the death of investments in extraction was recently 
>effected by the idiot government signing the Kyoto protocal.

It may be an "idiot government" (which one isn't?) but not for 
signing the Kyoto Protocol. There's quite a lot about the Kyoto 
Potocol in the archives, it's shortcomings included, and what you'll 
also find there is how studies in so many countries, including 
Canada, have found that it's to be viewed as a great business 
opportunity, and also that any country that doesn't get into it 
yesterday already is going to be left behind, economically and 
competitiuvely.

Re oil shale and other "too-expensive" resources, did you read this 
link in my previous message?

>See:
>  http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=11083&list=biofuel&related=1

Try an archive search for "oil shale" (include quotes).
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel

Best wishes

Keith


>Ed B
>  - Original Message -
>  From: Keith Addison
>  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>  Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 1:18 PM
>  Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT 
>REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
>
>
>  Hi Ed
>
>  Well then, I guess both things happened, probably closely associated.
>  And both fell victim to the benevolance and goodwill to all mankind
>  of Big Oil.  It could have been one of the three plants the American
>  energy technologist tried to get going
>
>  Anyway, the Sasol plant in South Africa is still going strong. They
>  make quality fuel from low-grade brown coal which won't even burn.
>  There are massive amounts of that stuff lying around. This and other
>  things are seldom taken into account when people talk of Hubbert's
>  Peak, the end of oil, "die-off", etc. See:
>  http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=11083&list=biofuel&related=1
>
>  regards
>
>  Keith
>
>
>
>  >Keith:  I listened to an interview on Tom Valentine's radio show
>  >discuss the plant which was brought to Missouri.  It was years ago,
>  >and I cannot give the nane of the man.  It was at least an hour of
>  >discussion about the history, quality of fuel, cost, and other
>  >aspects.
>  >
>  >Ed B
>  >  - Original Message -
>  >  From: Keith Addison
>  >  To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>  >  Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 10:07 PM
>  >  Subject: Re: [biofuel] PENTAGON THREATENS TO KILL INDEPENDANT
>  >REPORTERS INIRAQ-innocent lives will be lost!
>  >
>  >
>  >  >At the time of the Second World War, German technology was producing
>  >  >gasoline from coal.  An entire factory was brought from Germany, and
>  >  >assembled in Missouri.  It made gasoline at a cost of 5 cents a
>  >  >gallon.  It was dismantled and the technology was hidden away.
>  >  >
>  >  >Ed B
>  >
>  >  Not so. This is what happened - posted here previously by a list member:
>  >
>  >  > "One of our oldest scientists, now 84 yrs. old, was responsible for
>  >  >going into Germany post WWII and uncovering the remains of Hitler's
>  >  >synthetic fuels machine which had been bombed out. I'm speaking of
>  >  >Fischer-Tropsch oily-based paraffins which are hydrocracked down
>  >  >into shorter chains for synthetic

[biofuel] Darth W. Vader Kicks Over a Hornets' Nest


"The president's 48-hour ultimatum to Saddam Hussein and his sons to get out of 
Iraq or die comes against a background of dwindling U.S. support for Bush."

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0312/ridgewar2.php
James Ridgeway's War Watch

Darth W. Vader Kicks Over a Hornets' Nest
Conservative Movement's Future Rides on Outcome of Bush's War
March 17th, 2003 9:00 PM

Bush's "Moment of Truth," 3/17/03
(whitehouse.gov)
Follow James Ridgeway's take on major events, posted throughout the week.

NEW YORK-The president's 48-hour ultimatum to Saddam Hussein and his 
sons to get out of Iraq or die comes against a background of 
dwindling U.S. support for Bush. People are tired of sitting around 
waiting for war, but there's also growing rumble of discontent with 
the president's other policies. More than ever the invasion of Iraq 
is Bush's war. His future, and the future of the conservative 
movement that dominates the nation's politics, ride on its success.

The president can't afford to lose. Tonight Bush played directly to 
his conservative base: insisting that the administration's "peaceful 
efforts" had failed because of the Iraqi "thugs" in power, and 
warning that "hundreds of thousands" of people here and around the 
world face imminent threat of attack by Saddam. This claim goes far 
beyond any that has previously been made. People who oppose the war 
already have been attacked as unpatriotic. Bush tonight made clear 
that the FBI and other law enforcement agencies will unroll a new 
broader dragnet against suspected terrorists, who now, under the 
Justice Department's interpretations of the USA Patriot Act and other 
laws, can include any passenger on an airplane or anyone who 
contributes to a charity the government deems to be subversive.

With oil and natural gas prices at all-time highs, the world economy 
faces the possibility of a worldwide economic downturn, if not 
depression. Germany has been battered like at no time since the 
1930s. Oil-dependent Japan hangs on the brink of an economic crash 
that will affect all of Asia. High oil prices will also plunge 
developing nations into depression-all at a time when the AIDS crisis 
is ravaging Africa.

In the domestic economy, war means at least $20 billion a year in the 
"reconstruction" of Iraq, much of it going to big construction firms 
that helped Bush get elected, along with more giveaways to the rich 
backers amid rising unemployment.

Unilateralism is an abrupt change in foreign policy and conceivably 
leading to the breakup and demise of the UN-long a conservative goal. 
The Congress is dead in the water, unwilling or unable to debate, 
question, or investigate the causes of war or plans for the aftermath.

Every major Democratic presidential candidate is tied to Bush's war. 
Whatever the outcome, these geniuses stand to lose.


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[biofuel] Halliburton Makes a Killing on Iraq War


MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX
Halliburton Makes a Killing on Iraq War
http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=6008

As the first bombs rain down on Baghdad, CorpWatch has learned that 
thousands of employees of Halliburton, Vice President Dick Cheney's 
former company, are working alongside United States troops in Kuwait 
and Turkey under a package deal worth close to a billion dollars. 
According to US Army sources, they are building tent cities and 
providing logistical support for the war in Iraq in addition to other 
hot spots in the "war on terrorism."

While recent news coverage has speculated on the post-war 
reconstruction gravy train that corporations like Halliburton stand 
to gain from, this latest information indicates that Halliburton is 
already profiting from war time contracts worth hundreds of millions 
of dollars.

In this special series, investigative reporter Pratap Chatterjee 
looks at Halliburton and its subsidiaries' war profiteering. Related 
articles include:

*Cheney's Close Ties to Brown and Root
http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=6028

*Vinnell Corporation: 'We Train People to Pull Triggers'
http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=6029

*Vinnell, Brown and Root at Turkey's Incirlik Airbase
http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=6030


See also:
"To put out the oil field well-head fires in southern Iraq, the government may 
well end up calling on Vice President Dick Cheney's old employer, the 
Halliburton company which owns Kellogg, Brown & Root, a legendary Texas firm 
skilled in providing services to the petroleum industry."
Cheney's War
The Vice President's Old Employer Could Put Out the Fires in Iraq
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0313/ridgewar3.php

Daddy Warbucks
by James Ridgeway
Bush Pals Get Rich Off Iraq
March 18th, 2003 12:00 PM
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0312/mondo1.php


>> Featured Articles

Updated: 02/26/2003

Jordan's Sweatshops
 From Issue: Sweatshops

The New Oil Order
 From Issue: Oil, Gas & Coal

Precision Farming
 From Issue: Biotechnology

Afghan Pipe Dreams
 From Issue: Oil, Gas & Coal

The War on Terrorism's Gravy Train
By Pratap Chatterjee


>> More Articles

Updated: 03/19/2003

USA: Lockheed's $250 Billion Pentagon Connection

USA: On Eve of War ,Washington's Image Plummets

USA: Firms Set for Postwar Contracts

USA: General/Defense Contractor to Reubild Iraq

USA: 12 Reasons to Oppose a War with Iraq


>> More News

Updated: 03/13/2003

Boycott the War

Occidental Petroleum and Plan Colombia

Help Needed for Jan 18 Anti-War March

Nationwide Anti-War Demos Oct. 26

War Times Update


>> More Bulletins


Background Articles
Related Links

 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[biofuel] New York Will March in the Face of War


http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0312/ferguson.php
New York Will March in the Face of War
In Shock and Awe
by Sarah Ferguson
March 19 - 25, 2003

These people finally get to march through New York, Saturday at noon.
(photo: Cary Conover)
It's not quite glasnost, but the big chill felt by New York City 
peace activists appears to be lifting.

On Friday, police officials agreed to allow tens of thousands of 
people to march down Broadway this Saturday, March 22, to oppose war 
in Iraq.

That's a dramatic turnaround from the city's stance last month, when 
it denied demonstrators permission to parade past the United 
Nations-or anywhere in the city. Worse, the NYPD blocked access to 
the permitted stationary rally, confining crowds with metal 
barricades and making more than 250 arrests.

This time, police have agreed to let people assemble freely, without 
pens. "We've reclaimed our democratic right to march," says Leslie 
Cagan, co-chair of United for Peace and Justice, which organized the 
February 15 event.

Their win didn't come easy. Organizers say they spent a week haggling 
with police officials, who at one point wanted to limit the route 
from 38th Street to Union Square. They were also upset when the NYPD 
presented plans to cordon off side streets and tightly control the 
formation of the march. The scheme approved Friday calls for 
assembling at noon on Broadway, between 35th and 42nd streets, and 
marching to Washington Square Park. Side streets will be open for 
contingents to funnel into the start of the march, and organizers 
have pledged at least 100 volunteer marshals to keep things moving 
smoothly.

City officials downplayed the dispute. "Our concern was not with the 
route but with the need to fill in the staging area in a safe and 
orderly way," said Gail Donoghue of the city's law department.

Billed as a local event, this march is not expected to draw the 
300,000 people who swamped midtown last month. "This is the people of 
ground zero coming out to say no to an unnecessary military 
confrontation that will have devastating consequences to the Iraqi 
people and quite possibly us," says labor organizer Michael Letwin.

There will be large blocs of students, labor supporters, theater 
artists, and a mock funeral procession-but no rally. "We don't need 
any more speeches," says Letwin. "We're preaching to the choir at 
this point." Folks are encouraged to bring radios to tune in to WBAI, 
99.5 FM, which will give updates on the event.

Though activists expect 20,000 to 50,000 participants, the turnout 
could balloon if the Bush administration launches an attack. 
Europeans have called for convergences at major cities on the 
Saturday after war breaks out, and that could mean this weekend. With 
President Bush issuing ultimatums, many activists are turning to 
civil disobedience.

On Monday, Nobel peace laureate Mairead Maguire and 44 others were 
arrested for blocking access to the U.S. mission to the United 
Nations. The protest was part of a nonviolent campaign called by 
United for Peace and Justice and the Iraq Pledge of Resistance 
(peacepledge.org), which included 54 arrests outside the Capitol and 
another 40 outside the British consulate in San Francisco. On Friday, 
the former president of the Pacific Stock Exchange was arrested with 
79 others after a sit-down in San Francisco that snarled rush hour 
traffic for hours; the next day 157 were caught during a breakaway 
march downtown.

War could bring yet bigger disruptions. In San Francisco, the 
anarchist-oriented Direct Action to Stop the War 
(actagainstthewar.org) has posted a "menu" of strategies to "shut 
down" that city if the U.S. launches an invasion-everything from 
traffic slowdowns and bike brigades to lockdowns at the offices of 
defense contractors and oil companies.

While that kind of militancy has been slow to jell in New York, 
frustration is building. "In the last 24 hours, I've had 50 people 
contact me who say they are willing to be arrested-and most of them 
are people who say they've never been arrested before," says Brad 
Simpson, who is helping organize civil disobedience trainings with 
the War Resisters League.

For weeks there's been a call for protesters to assemble in Times 
Square at 5 p.m. if war begins. Over the weekend, organizers from 25 
peace groups made plans for feeder marches to converge there. There 
was also talk of traffic blockades and sit-ins at congressional 
offices.

Organizers insist Saturday's march will remain peaceful. "We have 
done everything we can to stop this war," says Cagan, taking a deep 
breath. "And if war begins, we will do everything we can to stop it."

For further details on the March 22 protest, see unitedforpeace.org.

As U.S. troops gear up for possible warfare in Iraq, the Voice keeps 
track of what the president really wants in the Middle East, and why.

  Letter to the Editor   |E-Mail Story   |Voice Newsletter

Recent stories by Sarah Ferguson

[biofuel] Senator, D.C. Activists Blast the War


"It is still too early to tell whether last night's "decapitation" 
strike was another botched bit of intelligence engineered by the much 
criticized CIA director George Tenet."

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0313/ridgewar2.php
James Ridgeway's War Watch
Senator, D.C. Activists Blast the War
Iraqi Military Reportedly Set Oil Fields on Fire
March 20th, 2003 10:00 AM

WASHINGTON, D.C.-So far this morning, police are concentrating on 
demonstrators, not terrorists. During a heavy rain, demonstrators 
briefly closed down the 14th Street bridge from Virginia to 
Washington at the height of the rush hour. This is the main commuter 
thoroughfare into the District, and even this short blockage led to 
traffic jams elsewhere in the city.

It is still too early to tell whether last night's "decapitation" 
strike was another botched bit of intelligence engineered by the much 
criticized CIA director George Tenet. Reports of Scud attacks in 
Kuwait put Israeli forces on heightened alert. The Special Forces 
chopper crash comes at a time when press reports out of the Middle 
East say the two Iraqi divisions defending Basra are negotiating 
surrender with U.S. commanders.

In the wake of all this, talk of an Iraq turkey shoot has stopped, at 
least in Britain. Today British Defense Secretary Geoff Hoon warned 
that the war may take longer than first thought. "We all certainly 
hope that offensive operations will be over quickly," Hoon told the 
MPs in a speech at the House of Commons. "But we should not 
underestimate the risks and difficulties we may face against a regime 
that is an embodiment of absolute ruthlessness, with utter disregard 
for human life."

Meanwhile, the situation grows more complicated with first reports 
that the Iraqi military around Basra have set oil fields on fire. 
Reports say the area is coming under considerable bombardment.

Meanwhile, in D.C., rush hour subways are crammed as usual, with few 
police in evidence. Last night perhaps 50 demonstrators, accompanied 
by police marched up Connecticut Avenue and into Dupont Circle, but 
soon dispersed. This morning, police cars are parked across all the 
pathways into the Circle. A helicopter crisscrosses the cold and 
rainy capital. Police expect other demonstrations throughout the day.

Whether Robert Byrd's almost Shakespearian attack on Bush from the 
Senate floor yesterday will set off a tardy Congressional debate is 
hard to predict. In any event, it is too late. Dennis Kucinich, the 
liberal Democratic congressman from Cleveland and an outsider 
presidential candidate, attacked the war. "President Bush has 
launched an unprovoked attack against another country," he said. 
"Iraq does not pose an imminent threat to the United States or any of 
its neighboring nations. Iraq was not responsible for the terrorist 
attacks of September 11."


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[biofuel] The Spoils of War


http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0241/ridgeway.php
The Village Voice: Nation: Mondo Washington: The Spoils of War by 
James Ridgeway

"The doctrine of the preemptive strike is the perfect strategy for ushering in 
a new century of neocolonialism, unfettered by any need to respect sovereignty 
or self-determination."

Mondo Washington
by James Ridgeway
The Spoils of War
Be the First on Your Block to Make a Buck off Iraq
October 9 - 15, 2002

War means money, son: Dick Cheney with colonel 'D.. Dawg' in Qatar this year.
(photo: David Bohrer, www.whitehouse.gov)
  
As they prepare to make war on Iraq, cowboy-in-chief George Bush and 
his cohorts have pulled out all the stops. They're trying to convince 
us that this act of pure aggression is a "preemptive" move that will 
allow Americans to sleep more peacefully in their beds, while the 
Iraqi masses cheer the conquerors who have starved them for a decade 
and then bombed them to smithereens.

And that's just for starters. In the imaginations of Bush and his 
advisers, this Wild West approach to the Middle East stands to knock 
out Syria's despot, rein in the Saudi royal family, inspire the 
neighboring Iranians to their own pro-American putsch, banish the 
Palestinians to Jordan, and clear the way for Israeli settlers.

The doctrine of the preemptive strike is the perfect strategy for 
ushering in a new century of neocolonialism, unfettered by any need 
to respect sovereignty or self-determination. Better still, it's 
going to mean big bucks for whoever gets in on the ground floor. 
Before the war can begin, the movers and shakers in Washington and 
around the world have their eyes on divvying up the spoils.

MILITARY VENDORS

First in line to benefit from the war is Dick Cheney's old company 
Halliburton and its subsidiary Kellogg Brown & Root-or, more 
colloquially, just Brown & Root-which has cornered the market in 
supplying American armies of "liberation" around the globe. Launched 
in the 1930s amid a maze of political deals and lucrative government 
contracts, the Texas oil construction outfit built airstrips, roads, 
harbors, and military bases in Vietnam, and later provided similar 
services in Zaire, Haiti, Somalia, Kosovo, and Afghanistan.

As Bush Senior's secretary of defense, Cheney oversaw the 
privatization of the military's logistics operations. Journalist 
Robert Bryce, who has chronicled the construction company in minute 
detail, reports Brown & Root won contracts of nearly $9 million to 
help the government implement those policies, giving it a natural leg 
up. During the 1990s, records show, it earned more than $2.5 billion 
for military support-much of it during Cheney's time as a top 
Halliburton executive.

With Cheney back in the White House, Brown & Root's fortunes have 
only improved. Last spring the Army Operations Support Command 
awarded it an open-ended deal to work with army engineers and 
"provide for the construction of base camps and their 
infrastructures, including billeting and dining facilities; food 
preparation, potable water and sanitary systems; showers; laundries; 
transportation; utilities; warehouses and other logistics support." 
How much has Brown & Root already made under this contract-and how 
much does it stand to make in Iraq? We may never know. The numbers 
are classified.

AGRICULTURAL INTERESTS

Before the first Persian Gulf war, Iraq had become a sizable market 
for American rice, wheat, and chickens. In the last half of the '80s, 
the United States sold $4 billion in food to Iraq. Twenty percent of 
the American rice crop went there at one point in the 1980s.

In 1988-89 the United States exported 521,000 tons of rice to Iraq, 
making it our number one consumer. More recently, the figure has been 
zero. A spokesperson for the U.S. Rice Federation, which takes a dim 
view of the sanctions, wouldn't comment on the current situation. But 
it's safe to say there would be nothing like a war, regime change, 
and the subsequent lifting of sanctions to open up this lucrative 
market once again.

BIG OIL

Oil, clearly, is the commercial jackpot in this war. Even under the 
sanctions, Iraq provides us with 9 percent of our oil supply. Until 
this spring, we were buying half of all Iraq's oil exports. But oil 
is also the carrot the U.S. is holding out to potential allies. As 
Bush with his left hand assures the American people that he will 
fight to secure their energy supply, with his right he's giving away 
future Iraqi oil to buy support from the French and the Russians.

At the recent Group of Eight summit in Canada, Russian president 
Vladimir Putin reportedly told Bush he couldn't care less whether 
Saddam got the heave-ho, as long as Russia got compensated for about 
$12 billion in outstanding loans to Iraq, and $4 billion owed them 
for transporting Iraqi oil. Meanwhile, the Russian oil companies are 
scrambling to save their recent deals. LUKoil, for one, signed an 
exploration contract in 19

[Biofuel] OT - USA Compassionate Conservatism

2003-03-20 Thread MH

For example --

Posted Wednesday, March 19, 2003

Republicans Seek To Slash VA Budget!

News With our military poised to attack Iraq,the Republican Party is poised
to devastate the budget of American veterans.
By Kate McLaughlin

http://www.vaiw.org/vet/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=59&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

Today the House of Representatives will vote on a resolution that if passed
will devastate the Veterans Administration's budget and severely reduce its
medical, disability, and benefit programs. On the verge of war in Iraq, the
Republican Paty has placed in its cross-hairs American veterans from earlier
wars.

The Republican majority of the House Budget Committee is reducing President
Bush's proposed budget by about $844 million in health care and an
additional $463 million in benefit programs including disability
compensation, vocational rehabilitation, education survivor's benefits, and
pension programs from next year's budget. In addition to these cuts, the GOP
is planning to cut $15 billion from the veteran programs over the next 10
years. The soldiers and sailors that are currently in harms way in the the
Middle East, are about to have their future veterans' benefits and health
care slashed. If, that is, the Republicans get their way.

According to the Veterans Administration, 28 million veterans are currently
using VA benefits and another 70 million Americans are potentially eligible
for such programs, a quarter of the county's population. With the economy in
a downward spiral and unemployment rising quickly, an increased number of
veterans will be turning to the Veterans Administration for assistance. Yet,
the VA budget is about to shrink.

"As the nation expresses support for our soldiers and sailors on the verge
of war in the Middle East, even from us who are deeply opposed to this
unnecessary war," says Stewart Nusbaumer of Veterans Against Iraq War"
(www.vaiw.org), the Republicans are expressing contempt by cutting the
veterans budget."

Nearly a third of the Gulf War veterans have submitted claims to the
Veterans Administration for disability, this is about 209,000 veterans. Gulf
War II may have as many or more requesting VA assistance, but with a
Veterans Administration that will be smaller and with less resources.

"This could mean the loss of 19,000 nurses, equating to the loss of 6.6
million outpatient visits or more than three-quarters of a million hospital
bed days," says Edward Heath, National Commander of the Disabled American
Veterans. "But that is not all of the devastation that will
be caused by the proposed cuts. Congress will be reaching into the pockets
of our nation's service-connected veterans, including combat disabled
veterans, and robbing them and their survivors of a portion of their
compensation. Ninety percent of VA's mandatory spending is from cash
payments to service-connected disabled veterans, low-income wartime
veterans, and their survivors."

"Is there no shame?" Commander Heath asked.

According to Congressman Lane Evens (D-IL), the ranking Democratic Member of
the House Veteran's Affairs Committee, these cuts are picking up the slack
for the controversial tax cuts, he stated. "These cuts must be made, so that
our government can afford to provide a tax cut which will benefit only the
wealthiest Americans, many of who never served in the military."

"This is utterly humiliating to every veteran and every active duty service
person. On the verge of war, the Republicans are stabbing veterans of
earlier wars in the back."

Note: Kate McLaughlin served in the US Air Force and the Force Reserve. She is
currently a full time student and is studing nursing.

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[biofuel] Daddy Warbucks


http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0312/mondo1.php
Mondo Washington
by James Ridgeway

Daddy Warbucks
Bush Pals Get Rich Off Iraq
March 18th, 2003 12:00 PM
Unwilling to wait for bombs over Baghdad, Washington lobbyists kicked 
off the real Iraq war weeks ago. They've been quietly squaring off 
for the contracts to implement George Bush's one-year remake of Iraq, 
the squalid dictatorship, into Iraq, the gleaming democracy.

With the reconstruction roughly figured to run at least $20 billion a 
year for many years to come, this is a bonanza for the construction 
and allied industries.

Last week USAID asked five construction concerns to submit bids on an 
initial $900 million contract. Among them were three heavyweight 
players that collectively gave $2.8 million to presidential 
candidates over the last two election cycles. Two-thirds of that 
money went to Republicans, according to a report by the Center for 
Responsive Politics.

The three are:

Bechtel: The huge engineering firm employed top Reagan officials 
before they took office, including Defense Secretary Caspar 
Weinberger, Secretary of State George Schultz, and CIA director 
William Casey. Bechtel gave $1.3 million in PAC and soft-money 
contributions. A German report claims Bechtel sold weapons to Iraq 
during the 1980s.

Kellogg, Brown & Root: A Halliburton subsidiary, KBR has an 
open-ended contract to provide logistical support to the U.S. 
military around the world, and reportedly is in line to put out 
flaming oil wells should Saddam set them afire. Halliburton was the 
second largest contributor, chipping in $709,000.

Fluor: This corporation gave $483,000 to pols. Kenneth Oscar, the 
firm's VP for strategy and government services, recently was acting 
assistant secretary of the army, which has a $35 billion procurement 
budget.

Additional reporting: Phoebe St John, Mosi Secret, and Joanna Khenkine


The Bidders: Campaign Contributions Since 1999
http://www.capitaleye.org/iraqchart.3.12.03.asp
Bechtel Group Inc.
Halliburton Co.
Fluor Corp.
Parsons Corp.
Louis Berger Group Inc.


Postwar Profiteers  
by Sheryl Fred

How a handful of construction firms got an early invitation to rebuild Iraq.

http://www.TomPaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7408

Postwar Profiteers  

Sheryl Fred is an investigative reporter for the Center for 
Responsive Politics and its online newsletter, CapitalEye.org.

This article was originally published by the Center for Responsive 
Politics, and is reprinted with permission.

A select group of U.S. construction firms now bidding on a lucrative 
government contract to rebuild a postwar Iraq contributed a combined 
$2.8 million -- 68 percent to Republicans -- over the past two 
election cycles.

The U.S. Agency for International Development asked Bechtel Group 
Inc., Fluor Corp., Halliburton Co. subsidiary Kellogg, Brown & Root, 
Louis Berger Group Inc. and Parsons Corp. to submit bids last week 
for the $900-million contract. This initial estimate for repairing 
and building water systems, roads, bridges, schools and hospitals in 
the country is just the first step in what The Wall Street Journal 
called "the largest government reconstruction effort since Americans 
helped to rebuild Germany and Japan after World War II." The firms 
that land the contract are also likely to make the short list for 
future projects in Iraq, which include plans to develop the country's 
oil industry.

Bechtel, the engineering giant that employed the likes of former 
Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger, former Secretary of State George 
Schultz and former CIA Director William Casey before they took their 
government posts, gave $1.3 million in individual, PAC and soft money 
contributions between 1999 and 2002. As it prepares its bid for the 
postwar project, Bechtel is facing allegations that it contributed to 
Iraq's military buildup nearly two decades ago. The San Francisco 
Chronicle has reported that a German journalist uncovered a document 
prepared for the United Nations by Iraq that says Bechtel was among 
24 U.S. companies that supplied the country with weapons during the 
'80s.

Kellogg, Brown & Root and parent company Halliburton -- which was 
headed by Vice President Dick Cheney until 2000 -- was the 
second-largest donor of the group, with more than $709,000 in 
contributions. Halliburton also gave more to Bush's presidential 
campaign ($17,677) than any of the other bidders combined.

Fluor, which gave more than $483,000 in individual, PAC and soft 
money contributions in the previous two election cycles, also has 
ties to the Defense Department. Kenneth Oscar, the company's vice 
president of strategy and government services, recently served as the 
acting assistant secretary of the Army, where he directed its $35 
billion-a-year procurement budget.

Representatives from Bechtel and Halliburton told reporters this week 
that they were asked to submit a bid because they've done similar 
work with USAID in the past. Both companie

[biofuel] Opposing War Is Not 'Appeasement'


http://www.TomPaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7431

Opposing War Is Not 'Appeasement' 
An Interview With Stephen Walt, Harvard University

Natasha Hunter is associate editor at TomPaine.com.

TomPaine.com's Natasha Hunter spoke with Stephen Walt, professor of 
international affairs at Harvard University, about historical 
correlations that Bush and the media have made with the U.S. approach 
to Iraq and its implications for global diplomacy.

TomPaine.com: From the president on down to callers on C-SPAN, more 
and more people are consciously using the term "appeasement" in 
reference to softer positions on Iraq. Some even refer directly to 
Neville Chamberlain and his policy of appeasement of Hitler in the 
late 1930s. Is this a valid comparison?

Professor Stephen Walt: No. It's a completely invalid comparison. 
Appeasement means giving an adversary something it wants, rolling 
over and letting an aggressor alter the status quo. The two options 
that have been on the table for the past six months have been 
containment or preventive war. Both of those are hard-nosed, 
keep-Saddam-in-his-box-or-get-rid-of-him options.

People who favor containment are not rolling over to Saddam. They 
want to keep Iraq weak through sanctions, they want him to know that 
if he uses force of any kind to threaten his neighbors, he'll face 
massive opposition from much stronger countries, like us. These are 
not pacifist strategies. Nobody has argued accommodating or appeasing 
Saddam. The only serious argument has been between those who want to 
contain Iraq through military deterrence, and those who want to 
overthrow Saddam through preventive war. Neither of these options is 
appeasement.

TP.c: Is there a parallel between the threat that Saddam poses and 
Hitler's threat in Europe?

Walt: No. The German military power grew steadily from 1933 onward. 
Adolf Hitler attacked nearly a dozen countries by the time he had 
been in power for eight years. Iraq has gone to war only twice since 
Saddam took power 30 years ago, and Iraq's armed forces are weaker 
today than at any time in the past 20 years. Saddam Hussein and Adolf 
Hitler are both evil despots, but Iraq is not Nazi Germany, Saddam is 
not Adolf, and the Iraqi army is not the Wehrmacht.

People use scary historical analogies when they don't have good 
arguments based on the facts today. They try to scare us by talking 
about bad people and disasters in the past. It's usually a sign that 
you don't have the facts on your side when you have to go 60 years 
into the past to find a way to inflate the threat.

TP.c: If these comparisons are not apt, what other era in history 
would you draw parallels with?

Walt: Here's one. Another parallel would be Wilhelmine Germany, 
between 1890 and 1914. In 1890 Germany had good relations with all 
major powers in the world except France, which Bismarck had managed 
to isolate through careful diplomacy. By 1914, however, Germany faced 
combined opposition from Russia, France and Britain, and had only 
Austria-Hungary as its allies. Germany did this by throwing its 
weight around over that 20-year period, eventually causing its own 
encirclement.

Now look at the United States. When Cold War ended, the United States 
was on good terms with nearly everyone in the world, and this 
continued under the first Bush administration and the Clinton 
Administration.

Since 2000, though, we've seen a steady erosion in America's 
diplomatic position, and unprecedented levels of anti-Americanism 
worldwide. Today, we can't get even get five votes -- let alone a 
majority of nine -- in the [United Nations] Security Council, even 
when the issue on the table is how to deal with a tyrant like Saddam 
Hussein. The Bush Administration's commitment to preventive war has 
turned this dispute from a debate about Saddam into a debate about 
American power, and that's not good news for the United States. What 
we are witnessing is the progressive self-isolation of the United 
States.

The key thing I'd emphasize is that the issue is not where we are a 
month from now. It's not how the war goes in the short term -- it'll 
probably go pretty well. The issue is more where we are a year form 
now. What condition Iraq is in, how our willingness to use force is 
viewed in other countries and how this affects the much more 
important campaign against terrorism. That we won't we know for a 
while. I don't think this is going to have, on balance, positive 
effects for our international position.

Published: Mar 18 2003


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an

[biofuel] The Long View: America's Illegal War - An Interview With Daniel Ellsberg


http://www.TomPaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7461

The Long View: America's Illegal War
An Interview With Daniel Ellsberg

Steven Rosenfeld is a commentary editor and audio producer for TomPaine.com.

AUDIO: Click here to listen
To download RealPlayer for free, Click Here.

Daniel Ellsberg is best-known as the former marine who gave the 
"Pentagon Papers" -- or secret Vietnam War plans and assessment of 
that conflict -- to The New York Times in the 1960s, precipitating 
popular opposition to that war. He has since been an outspoken 
anti-war opponent and was interviewed by TomPaine.com's Steven 
Rosenfeld about the current invasion of Iraq.

TomPaine.com: People who have opposed this preemptive war for 
diplomatic, political and moral reasons now find themselves watching 
as the invasion begins. And many people, moderates in the Democratic 
Party and others who are running for president, are saying it's time 
to stand with the president and stand with the troops. What do you 
say to that?

"They have engaged and they are in a conspiracy to wage aggressive 
war for which people were convicted at [the Nazi war crime tribunals 
at] Nuremburg."

Daniel Ellsberg: Well, I'm encouraged by the fact that there is 
enormous opposition, both abroad and in this country. In fact, I'm 
proud of the Americans who have been opposing this war as actively as 
they have in the last couple of months, which includes a small 
minority of the people in Congress.

So, I would say, that the task before us -- and there clearly are a 
lot of Americans who are ready to do this -- the task is for us to 
change this imperial policy with its dangers and its wrongness.

TP.c: Where can legitimate criticisms begin, where political traction 
can be made?

Ellsberg: I don't think legitimate criticism ever ends. Of course, in 
a way, that's almost a truism. If it's legitimate, it should be 
expressed. They're not concealing the fact that we are going to war 
this time, but the reasons for going to war are totally deceitful 
now. And I don't think there should be any moratorium on raising 
those questions and challenging the government opinion on that.

For example, there's every reason to believe that an effect of this 
war, even if it were as successful as the administration hopes, will 
be an increase in the strength of Al Qaeda and their freedom from 
effective police and intelligence collaboration against them 
worldwide. In other words, there will be a price in innocent American 
lives as well as in innocent Iraqi lives. Those will be very closely 
related. It will be terror for terror. And that point is simply being 
ignored, virtually, by the administration and the media has not 
focused on it nearly to the extent they should have.

TP.c: What kind of anti-war criticism or focus do you think would be 
most effective right now?

Ellsberg: Well I think that point, to begin with: This is a war that 
increases our danger at home. But there are, by the way, still 
horrors that could prevented by sufficient public awareness and 
protest, even if the war itself can't be stopped.

Very specifically, I think the question should be raised now -- right 
now and very forcefully -- that we should not use nuclear weapons 
under any circumstances whatever. And very specifically, if weapons 
of mass destruction in the form of biological or chemical weapons are 
used against our troops -- which would be a war crime by Iraq -- that 
war crime should not be answered by a massive crime against humanity 
in the form of nuclear retaliation.

The administration has specifically threatened their willingness to 
initiate the use of nuclear weapons in a number of circumstances, 
including the use of gas or chemical weapons. I hope that Bush is 
wrong in saying they have effective gas or biological weapons. But if 
he isn't, I think there should be a U.N. resolution and congressional 
resolution that we would not use nuclear weapons.

So, I think there is a point where public protest should not wait 
until, as Bush keeps putting it, until the evidence of our intent is 
a mushroom cloud.

TP.c: Suppose the invasion is relatively short and George Bush 
emerges as a victorious American war president. Do you have concerns 
or fears that this will license or sanction this new doctrine of 
preemption?

Ellsberg: Whether it's "successful" or not, the longer-term thing 
that we can focus on today is the fact that we Americans, including 
our military, are now in the position of witnessing our government -- 
this country that I love -- carrying out a massive crime against the 
peace. That we are in the process of a clearly blatantly illegal war, 
and that's true for the first time in my lifetime and one could even 
say in this century, I think.

[Former Presidents Abraham] Lincoln and U.S. Grant denounced the 
Mexican War as an aggressive war, an illegal war, which it 
undoubtedly was. But you have to go back for that. In this century, 
we haven't seen any democracy, let al

[biofuel] Zero One, Zulu Time - Embedded And Missing The Story


http://www.TomPaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7438

Zero One, Zulu Time
Embedded And Missing The Story

Michael Ryan is a former correspondent and editor for Time, Inc. 
publications. He has covered conflicts in Northern Ireland, Grenada, 
Panama and Southeast Asia, as well as the first Gulf War.

AUDIO: Click here to listen
To download RealPlayer for free, Click Here.

Sharon Basco produced this piece.

The problem with seduction is that you don't realize it's happening 
until it's too late.

It has now become obvious that the process of embedding journalists 
with American troops has led them away from the real news -- 
including the psychological intensity of the young people about to 
put their lives on the line.

ABC, by far the most dependable of the commercial broadcast networks, 
unfortunately proved the point in the three-hour war-o-rama it 
broadcast to follow President Bush's speech to the nation.

Here's what we saw: Ted Koppel embedded with one unit; Don Dahler 
embedded with another; Ron Claiborne embedded with a third, and the 
list went on and on. The screen crackled with upscale network guys 
wearing khaki tee-shirts and perfecting their swagger. A small 
sampling of other networks, both broadcast and cable, produced 
similar results. The networks -- whether out of fear of seeming 
unpatriotic or because boys simply like to play soldier -- are losing 
their objectivity and turning into cheerleaders.

"It's getting hard to tell the news from an episode of JAG."

What do we learn from ABC? That Bradley armored vehicles can speed 
through desert sands. That launchers can shoot multiple rockets. That 
poison gas suits are really, really stifling, but they can protect 
you!

Why did it all seem like product plugs for the multi-million dollar 
armaments about to be used? It trivialized war into the world's 
longest GI Joe commercial.

In the excitement of embedment, many correspondents have so far 
missed the opportunities to drive off, away from their minders, and 
find the chinks in the armor, and the fear in the eyes of citizen 
soldiers, and ordinary people whose homes may be destroyed.

Much of what we've seen is not news. In the last Gulf War, which I 
covered for Life magazine, even those of us who weren't favored by 
the first Bush regime got to see Bradley fighting vehicles racing 
across the desert, multiple rocket launchers, Marines and all kinds 
of neat stuff. I still have my poison gas suit and gas mask on a 
shelf in my office. Never know when they will come in handy.

But back then, the media were cranky and dyspeptic -- the military 
tried to keep us from doing our jobs. Now, we have morphed into some 
strange sort of courtesans. "It is four in the morning in Kuwait: 
Zero One, Zulu Time," one CNN report began. It's getting hard to tell 
the news from an episode of JAG. The story went on to praise the 
vigor, the aplomb and the determination of the troops. All those 
things are true, I'm sure. I've seen American troops in action. But 
I've also seen fear, uncertainty and doubt. Our military are mainly 
working class young men and women being sent to fight a war which 
they might not even believe in if they knew the geopolitics involved.

We don't get that part of the story. Instead, we get an ABC 
correspondent interviewing a CBS correspondent and an editor from the 
Atlantic [Monthly]. We hear journalists telling each other how 
thrilling it all is, what smashing equipment we have. Body bags, 
civilian casualties and disabled veterans haven't made it to the news 
front -- yet.

Doesn't anybody understand that ending the reign of Hussein is going 
to cause us pain?

This is Michael Ryan for TomPaine.com.

Published: Mar 19 2003


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[biofuel] An Air Of Empire


http://www.TomPaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7452

An Air Of Empire  
The Heavy Price Of Dominance

Leon Fuerth was national security adviser to former vice president Al 
Gore. He is now a research professor at George Washington University.

Editor's Note: The following opinion piece was published in The 
Washington Post on March 20, 2003, and is reprinted with permission 
of the author.

The word "empire" has been used fairly often as a metaphor to convey 
the global scope of American interests and of American military, 
economic and political influence. After the conquest of Iraq, 
however, it can be fairly argued that we shall have created not a 
figure of speech but a concrete reality.

First of all, we will have made clear that the United States answers 
to no authority other than itself when it comes to the use of 
military force. Moreover, the authority of the United States will be 
mostly indistinguishable from the personal will of its president. The 
Bush doctrine of preemption becomes a replacement for international 
law: Any president at any time in the future can decide to attack any 
country, provided only that he is satisfied that said country might 
at some point represent a direct threat to the United States.

Second, the United States will have established itself as the 
dominant force at the geographic core of a region that, in turn, 
exercises tremendous leverage over the rest of the globe through the 
oil market. As occupying power, the United States will unilaterally 
assume responsibility for decisions that will determine the future 
course of Iraq's oil and gas industries. We become in effect a 
virtual member of OPEC, and one of the most powerful at that. So 
immense military power will be united with an equally impressive form 
of economic power. No, this war is certainly not about oil. But the 
peace that follows it will be another matter.

The fact that we will have acted out of fear of terrorism in an 
impulse of self-protection does not change the essential nature of 
this event for much of the rest of the world. What matters is the 
answer to a single question: Does the United States consider itself 
bound by any international obligation if that obligation is seen as 
an impediment to its will? The Bush administration will have 
difficulty saying otherwise, in view of its pattern of unilateral 
action, established well before the present crisis.

If war comes, we may be quickly victorious. And perhaps the 
president's sweeping vision of positive change throughout the Middle 
East will also come to pass. The more brilliant our success, however, 
the more deeply we will be feared. And the reason for that is not 
just the stunning demonstration of power in bringing it about but the 
fact that the government of the United States went out of its way to 
drive home one point: We are dominant, and dominant is as dominance 
does. That has its price.

Americans -- whether they support or oppose war with Iraq -- need to 
realize the consequences of the status we may shortly assume. The 
beginning of empire is the end of commonwealth. We have already seen 
how that works in the failed bidding war the United States engaged in 
for the sake of support in the Security Council and from Turkey.

The irony is that all along the United States has had every right to 
resume military operations against Iraq under existing Security 
Council resolutions, because Saddam Hussein was patently in breach of 
his commitments. Instead, the administration chose to base its 
actions on an unlimited assertion of an American right to make war at 
will.

Whether or not we intend to be an empire, we now present the aspect 
of one -- an appearance that has already contributed to the 
fracturing of our alliances by playing into the ambitions of those, 
such as the French and their followers, who believe their mission is 
to contain us. The administration knows that it is responsible for 
the reconstruction of Iraq after this war is over. But it does not 
appear to realize that it also must find a way to reconstruct another 
collateral casualty: the notion that America is part of a community 
of nations.

Published: Mar 20 2003


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[biofuels-biz] Fwd: Power Crops for the Americas