Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[D. Mindock]

Hi Leo,

   Right on!  History as written in books is largely either incomplete or 
wrong, sometimes
intentionally so. I wonder how two historians, one leaning to the right and 
the other leaning to the
left, will record the history of the Bush/Cheney administration.

Peace, D. Mindock


- Original Message - 
From: leo bunyan
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax


I'm still here D
Funny how history repeats itself or stays the same
Really it's a bit pointless teaching history in schools
as nobody seems to learn from it
Leo

"D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks Bob. Good input!!! I put that hoax article out there to see what the 
reponse would be.
I hope Leo gets your comeback. I don't want him to suffer from 
spinmeisterism.
Peace, D. Mindock
- Original Message - 
From: Bob Molloy
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax


Hi All,
   Hoax indeed. This revisionist version of the Pilgrims Progress is 
pure unadulterated neo-con spin. Our masters continually rewrite history to 
make it fit their political ambitions. As always, the aim is to blind the 
Great Unwashed and line them up behind whatever their current scheme is to 
a) stay on top, b) hog all the goodies, and c) keep the peasants in line.
We don't need to know any facts at all about the first colonists except the 
obvious that starving people are desperate. They will even stoop to working 
in the fields if necessary just to stay alive, which would suggest that 
political orientation is much lower on the individual's hierachy of needs. 
Yes, some did die in the first years. How many of inherited diseases, poor 
housing, worse diet and plain homesickness is just a guess. What we can be 
sure of is that crop failure would be a likely outcome under alien 
conditions. We also know that the Founding Fathers learned quickly and soon 
adapted.
However, if an assessment of socialism as a working concept is needed let 
us - instead of making assumptions about the outcome of socialism in the 
first colony - take a look at how it actually works out in practice in 
modern states. See below for a re-run of the recent Scientific American 
article.
On the question of efficient production and use of resources, how about this 
fact (taken from "Freedom Next Time", John Pilger's latest book: "The US 
military budget for one year is the equivalent of $30,000 an hour for every 
hour since Christ was born."

Bob.

  From:
  Scientific American, Oct. 16, 2006
  [Printer-friendly version]

  The Social Welfare State, Beyond Ideology

  Are higher taxes and strong social "safety nets" antagonistic to a
  prosperous market economy? The evidence is now in.

  By Jeffrey D. Sachs

  One of the great challenges of sustainable development is to combine
  society's desires for economic prosperity and social security. For
  decades economists and politicians have debated how to reconcile the
  undoubted power of markets with the reassuring protections of social
  insurance. America's supply-siders claim that the best way to achieve
  well-being for America's poor is by spurring rapid economic growth
  and that the higher taxes needed to fund high levels of social
  insurance would cripple prosperity. Austrian-born free-market
  economist Friedrich August
  von Hayek suggested in the 1940s that high taxation would be a "road
  to serfdom," a threat to freedom itself.

  Most of the debate in the U.S. is clouded by vested interests and by
  ideology. Yet there is by now a rich empirical record to judge these
  issues scientifically. The evidence may be found by comparing a group
  of relatively free-market economies that have low to moderate rates
  of taxation and social outlays with a group of social-welfare states
  that have high rates of taxation and social outlays.

  Not coincidentally, the low-tax, high-income countries are mostly
  English-speaking ones that share a direct historical lineage with
  19th-century Britain and its theories of
  economic
  laissez-faire. These countries include Australia, Canada, Ireland,
  New Zealand, the U.K. and the U.S. The high-tax, high-income states
  are the Nordic social
  democracies, notably Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden, which have
  been governed by left-of-center social democratic parties for much or
  all of the post-World War II era. They combine a healthy respect for
  market forces with a strong commitment to antipoverty programs.
  Budgetary outlays for social purposes av

Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[Jason& Katie]

yeah, a wealth of full metal jacket .223's. 
Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  - Original Message - 
  From: Bob Molloy 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:05 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax


  Hi Fred,
  Did I read you right? That Americans share their wealth? 
Examples please,
  Regards,
  Bob.
- Original Message - 
From: Fred Oliff 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax


maybe we ought to re-define what is meant by rich? what is wealth after all 
if you do not share it? And the Americans do! what is wealth if you do not have 
your health, but a huge burden?




--

  From:  "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Reply-To:  biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  To:  biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  Subject:  Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
  Date:  Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:09:10 -0700
  >snicker snicker snicker, OK specificaly the USA ( richest country in the
  >world is a quote from a Canadian I met)
  >
  >
  > >From: Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  > >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  > >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  > >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
  > >Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:33:13 -0500
  > >
  > >What?  Luxembourg doesn't have universal healthcare?
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >JAMES PHELPS wrote:
  > >
  > > > I guess another question would be how this relates to freedom?  And
  > > > why is it the richest country in the world cannot come up with
  > > > universal health care.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > >
  > >
  > >___
  > >Biofuel mailing list
  > >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  > 
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
  > >
  > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
  > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
  > >
  > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
  > >messages):
  > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
  > >
  >
  >
  >
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Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[Bob Molloy]

Hi Fred,
Did I read you right? That Americans share their wealth? 
Examples please,
Regards,
Bob.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Fred Oliff 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 9:56 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax


  maybe we ought to re-define what is meant by rich? what is wealth after all 
if you do not share it? And the Americans do! what is wealth if you do not have 
your health, but a huge burden?






From:  "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To:  biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To:  biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject:  Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Date:  Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:09:10 -0700
>snicker snicker snicker, OK specificaly the USA ( richest country in the
>world is a quote from a Canadian I met)
>
>
> >From: Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
> >Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:33:13 -0500
> >
> >What?  Luxembourg doesn't have universal healthcare?
> >
> >
> >
> >JAMES PHELPS wrote:
> >
> > > I guess another question would be how this relates to freedom?  And
> > > why is it the richest country in the world cannot come up with
> > > universal health care.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >___
> >Biofuel mailing list
> >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> >messages):
> >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
>
>
>
>___
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>
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>
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messages):
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>



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Re: [Biofuel] Weird Weather

[Bob Molloy]

Thomas,
  Thought I'd chip in. Icebergs larger than ocean liners were 
sighted off the port of  Dunedin, New Zealand, last week, well north of the 
Roaring Forties, barely five weeks before mid-summer. The sight was so unusual 
that tour operators offered chopper flights to over the ice field. One local 
news channels landed a reporter on a berg to do a quick talkback from the 
surface and pick up ice chips for an office martini. Wasn't that a scene from 
"Titanic"? 
Regards,
Bob.


were - Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Kelly 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 1:51 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Weird Weather


  Robert,

   I read your post and then the following from an e-mail:

  "More and more polar bear cubs are dying off on Alaska's northern coast, 
according to a government study released earlier this month . 
  In fact, of polar bears studied between 1990 and last spring, only 25 
cubs per 100 females survived. That's less than half the survival rate of polar 
bear cubs studied from 1967 to 1989! 
   Scientists point to rising temperatures and shrinking ice packs as a 
main cause of the polar bear's dramatic decline." 

   Evidence of climate change is coming from many different directions.

   I spent the afternoon trout fishing in the Catskill Mts of New York 
(US). Temps in the low 60's (F). Unusual for late Nov. The other fisherman I 
saw was wearing a Tee shirt. By now I should be using the new block heater I 
put in the car. I've already gone to my winter blend (70% BD : 30% winterized 
petro). Unusual    maybe nothing more      but .   weird weather, 
huh?
Tom 
- Original Message - 
From: robert and benita rabello 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:07 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Weird Weather


Hello everyone!

I talked my sweetheart into renting "An Inconvenient Truth" over the 
weekend.  She finds it hard to sit through all of the science, but my boys were 
pretty interested throughout the film.  We've had a very strange year, 
weather-wise, in this area.  Back in January, we had the wettest month on 
record.  It came in the middle of a long, rainy but mild winter that blended 
into an early spring, bringing warm temperatures.  Our garden got a real 
kick-start from the mild temperatures in March and April.

This summer ended up being the driest on record.  We went for WEEKS 
without rain.  (When I first came to BC to visit my sweetheart back in 1989, it 
rained  at least once, every day during the summer.)  Local creeks were so 
shallow I saw dead adult salmon stranded on the shore.  Autumn came with a 
vengeance though, bringing high winds and heavy rain that saturated the ground. 
 A couple of weeks ago, the remnants of a typhoon slammed into the west coast, 
bringing 800 mm of rainfall within a 24 hour period, just over the ridgeline 
from where we live.  We've had serious flooding, property damage and drowning 
deaths in our area.

Over the past couple of days, however, a mass of outflowing arctic air 
has dropped the temperatures precipitously.  The wet ground crusted into ice.  
A frontal system from the Gulf of Alaska brought about 15 cm of very wet snow 
that fell on the ice and made driving so treacherous, the municipality actually 
closed the two roads that lead uphill to our neighborhood.  (These have since 
been re-opened.)  We've not seen the snowplow because the crews are so busy 
trying to keep the major routes clear.  In the meantime, people are struggling 
to get their machines uphill, and several have simply parked on the sides of 
the roads and walked home.  (What a unique concept!)

Our Toyota has traction control, which I've learned makes the car 
utterly useless once the wheels start spinning.  It's not bad on compact snow, 
but anything deeper than the bottom of its rims renders the vehicle immobile 
pretty quickly.  In order to get my sweetheart to work this morning, I had to 
chip ice away from the front wheels and pour warm water around them to melt the 
ice underneath.

What this kind of weather pattern illustrates is that the balance of 
temperatures and precipitation is changing.  We've set several records for 
rain, heat, drought and snowfall in a single year.  The overheated atmosphere 
is releasing its energy with increasing ferocity, and unless we take SERIOUS 
action soon, I think we're going to be in for a very wild ride in the near 
future.

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/





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[Biofuel] Trust and universal health care in america

[JAMES PHELPS]

In the United States that I live in good intentions pave the path to hell.

Good intentions created: 

Social Security - A system that was designed to allow a better retirement for 
each generation that followed.  Such a good idea and it got off to a good 
start, but now my generation is going to spend a lifetime paying into something 
they will not reap.  Where did the money go? Bi-partisan spending to pay for 
bi-partisan military engagements around an otherwise peaceable world? Can you 
think of perhaps other pockets? 

More recently we have witnessed our government consistently use military power 
with complete irresponsibility all around the globe while stressing 
relationships with allies. 

Environmentally our Bi-partisan government has shown contempt for science and 
global warming the record is clear.

Now it is clear, as mentioned before, Republicans and Democrats are just a 
single party owned by the people that pay the lobbyists.

That is why many people that have private health care don't want the government 
involved. They just don't trust the government to administer it. 

And we see the fruit of a two party system. We are the American sheep being 
fleeced and flocked all around where ever they wish us to go. No leaders among 
us just some rich rich guys that smoke cigars and tell the presidents and 
congressmen what to do - kind of a sport - like chess.

Jim  ___
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Re: [Biofuel] The Cultural Differences

[leo bunyan]

I know how you feel
all we can do is keep going down the right track and not join them

Jason& Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: i dont find my country amusing, and 
-with  exceptions- am not proud of its people. it is rather deplorable if you 
ask me.  horrors abroad, idiocy at home, and noone willing to stand up and say 
"HEY  DUMBASS! YOU GOT IT WRONG! GO FIX IT!" and make some real changes for the 
 better. believe me ive been saying it for a while, and all i get are funny  
looks.
 Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
   From:leobunyan 
   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
   Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 6:46PM
   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The CulturalDifferences
   

good to find americans that can laugh atthemselves

Jason& Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:   HA HA HA!!! oh man! 
this is really funny. and  the jabs at americans are totally true... (BTW i 
am american sad to  say)
 Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message - 
   From:leobunyan 
   To:biofuel@sustainablelists.org
   Sent:Friday, November 24, 2006 4:11 AM
   Subject:[Biofuel] The Cultural Differences
   


Aussies: Dislike being mistaken for Pommies (Brits) when abroad. 
Canadians: Are rather indignant about being mistaken for Americans when
abroad. 
Americans: Encourage being mistaken for Canadians when abroad. 
Brits: Can't possibly be mistaken for anyone else when abroad. 
Aussies: Believe you should look out for your mates. 
Brits: Believe that you should look out for those people who belong to 
your club. 
Americans: Believe that people should look out for & take care of
themselves. 
Canadians: Believe that that's the government's job. 

Aussies: Are extremely patriotic to their
 beer. 
Americans: Are flag-waving, anthem-singing, and obsessively patriotic 
to the point of blindness. 
Canadians: Can't agree on the words to their anthem, when they can be
bothered to sing them. 
Brits: Do not sing at all but prefer a large brass band to perform the
anthem. 

Americans: Spend most of their lives
 glued to the idiot box. 
Canadians: Don't, but only because they can't get more American 
channels. 
Brits: Pay a tax just so they can watch four channels. 
Aussies: Export all their crappy programs, which no-one there watches, 
to Britain, where everybody loves them. 

Americans: Will jabber on incessantly about football, baseball, and
basketball. 
Brits: Will jabber on incessantly about cricket, soccer, and rugby. 
Canadians: Will jabber on incessantly about hockey, hockey, hockey, 
hockey, and how they beat the Americans twice, playing baseball. 
Aussies: Will jabber on incessantly about how
 they beat the Poms in 
every sport they play them in. 

Americans: Spell words differently, but still call it "English". 
Brits: Pronounce their words differently, but still call it "English". 
Canadians: Spell like the Brits, pronounce like Americans. 
Aussies: Add "G'day", "mate" and a heavy accent to everything they say 
in
 an attempt to get laid. 

Brits: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on an 
island. 
Aussies: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on an
island. 
Americans: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas, & liquor 
in a backwards country. 
Canadians: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas, & liquor 
in a backwards country. 

Americans: Drink weak, pissy-tasting beer. 
Canadians: Drink strong, pissy-tasting beer. 
Brits: Drink warm, beery-tasting piss. 
Aussies: Drink anything with alcohol in it. 

Americans: Seem to
 think that poverty & failure are morally suspect. 
Canadians: Seem to believe that wealth and success are morally suspect. 
Brits: Seem to believe that wealth, poverty, success and failure are
inherited things. 
Aussies: Seem to think that none of this matters after several beers
   Send instant messages to your online friends
http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 
   
   
-

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 messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] The Cultural Differences

[Jason& Katie]

i dont find my country amusing, and -with exceptions- am not proud of its 
people. it is rather deplorable if you ask me. horrors abroad, idiocy at home, 
and noone willing to stand up and say "HEY DUMBASS! YOU GOT IT WRONG! GO FIX 
IT!" and make some real changes for the better. believe me ive been saying it 
for a while, and all i get are funny looks.
Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  - Original Message - 
  From: leo bunyan 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 6:46 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Cultural Differences


  good to find americans that can laugh at themselves

  Jason& Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
HA HA HA!!! oh man! this is really funny. and the jabs at americans are 
totally true... (BTW i am american sad to say)
Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  - Original Message - 
  From: leo bunyan 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:11 AM
  Subject: [Biofuel] The Cultural Differences


Aussies: Dislike being mistaken for Pommies (Brits) when abroad. Canadians: Are 
rather indignant about being mistaken for Americans whenabroad. Americans: 
Encourage being mistaken for Canadians when abroad. Brits: Can't possibly be 
mistaken for anyone else when abroad. Aussies: Believe you should look out for 
your mates. Brits: Believe that you should look out for those people who belong 
to your club. Americans: Believe that people should look out for & take care 
ofthemselves. Canadians: Believe that that's the government's job. Aussies: Are 
extremely patriotic to their
 beer. Americans: Are flag-waving, anthem-singing, and obsessively patriotic to 
the point of blindness. Canadians: Can't agree on the words to their anthem, 
when they can bebothered to sing them. Brits: Do not sing at all but prefer a 
large brass band to perform theanthem. Americans: Spend most of their lives 
glued to the idiot box. Canadians: Don't, but only because they can't get more 
American channels. Brits: Pay a tax just so they can watch four channels. 
Aussies: Export all their crappy programs, which no-one there watches, to 
Britain, where everybody loves them. Americans: Will jabber on incessantly 
about football, baseball, andbasketball. Brits: Will jabber on incessantly 
about cricket, soccer, and rugby. Canadians: Will jabber on incessantly about 
hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey, and how they beat the Americans twice, playing 
baseball. Aussies: Will jabber on incessantly about how
 they beat the Poms in every sport they play them in. Americans: Spell words 
differently, but still call it "English". Brits: Pronounce their words 
differently, but still call it "English". Canadians: Spell like the Brits, 
pronounce like Americans. Aussies: Add "G'day", "mate" and a heavy accent to 
everything they say in an attempt to get laid. Brits: Shop at home and have 
goods imported because they live on an island. Aussies: Shop at home and have 
goods imported because they live on anisland. Americans: Cross the southern 
border for cheap shopping, gas, & liquor in a backwards country. Canadians: 
Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas, & liquor in a backwards 
country. Americans: Drink weak, pissy-tasting beer. Canadians: Drink strong, 
pissy-tasting beer. Brits: Drink warm, beery-tasting piss. Aussies: Drink 
anything with alcohol in it. Americans: Seem to
 think that poverty & failure are morally suspect. Canadians: Seem to believe 
that wealth and success are morally suspect. Brits: Seem to believe that 
wealth, poverty, success and failure areinherited things. Aussies: Seem to 
think that none of this matters after several beersSend instant messages to 
your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 

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Re: [Biofuel] The Great Fence of America

[Fred Finch]

I would hope that Canada annexes Minnesota before building the fence!

On 11/27/06, Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


You'd think the Canadians would put up their own fence!

robert and benita rabello wrote:

>Fred Oliff wrote:
>
>
>
>>Who gets riich when they build this new fence?
>>
>>
>>
>
>Some company affiliated with congressmen and senators.
>
>
>
>>  And is there going to be one on the northern borders as well?
>>
>>
>>
>
>Yes.  This has been a topic of derision among people in BC for the
>last several weeks.  I have a newspaper cartoon that shows Mr. Bush
>extoling the virtues of America's border with Canada.  He's shouting
>through a megaphone from the top of a barbed wire topped fence, complete
>with security cameras and a mine field.  An astonished Canadian, walking
>a dog, approaches the US border to hear Mr. Bush say:
>
>"I cherish the unique and special relationship we have between our
>two countries.  Now, keep your hands where I can see them and step away
>from the wall!"
>
>
>
>
>>Fences are meant to keep people/animals in or keep people/animals
>>out?  Just asking...
>>
>>
>>
>
>They're supposed to protect America from all those terrorists
>invading from Canada that the US Customs agency can't seem to screen at
>the border, despite all the harassment they give to our allies and
friends.
>
>
>
>>I thought Al Gore's comment in "An Inconvenient Truth" about terrorism
>>vs the environment (and I cannot recall the exact words), was very
>>telling of the present plight we all face. Which, after all, is easier
>>to fix?  Admitting there is a problem (has been difficult), awareness
>>that there is a problem is easy (maybe not AS easy) but taking action
>>(on the environment) is just not very popular.  No video games were
>>made/sold in the resolution of global climate change (warming).
>>
>>
>>
>
>Dealing with the climate issue will have an indirect consequence of
>significantly reducing our need to project power into the Persian Gulf
>to defend oil supplies.  That would go a long way toward ameliorating
>the hostility towards us that has been brewing in that region for the
>past fifty years or so.  The other side of the equation, however, will
>involve solving the Palestinian issue.
>
>Of course, I've been talking this way for thirty years now and no
>one seems willing to listen.  My mother thinks we should bomb the rest
>of the planet, calls my wife an "ignorant foreigner" (for suggesting
>that the US spend less money on "defense" and more on infrastructure and
>a social safety net) and told me to "go to hell" for suggesting that
>people who claim to be Christians should actually reflect a Christ-like
>attitude.  Sadly, this kind of mentality is common enough among American
>citizens that no substantive policy changes will ever occur.
>
>robert luis rabello
>"The Edge of Justice"
>Adventure for Your Mind
>http://www.newadventure.ca
>
>Ranger Supercharger Project Page
>http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
>
>
>___
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>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] The Great Fence of America

[Mike Weaver]

You'd think the Canadians would put up their own fence!

robert and benita rabello wrote:

>Fred Oliff wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Who gets riich when they build this new fence?
>>
>>
>>
>
>Some company affiliated with congressmen and senators.
>
>  
>
>>  And is there going to be one on the northern borders as well?
>>
>>
>>
>
>Yes.  This has been a topic of derision among people in BC for the 
>last several weeks.  I have a newspaper cartoon that shows Mr. Bush 
>extoling the virtues of America's border with Canada.  He's shouting 
>through a megaphone from the top of a barbed wire topped fence, complete 
>with security cameras and a mine field.  An astonished Canadian, walking 
>a dog, approaches the US border to hear Mr. Bush say:
>
>"I cherish the unique and special relationship we have between our 
>two countries.  Now, keep your hands where I can see them and step away 
>from the wall!"
>
>
>  
>
>>Fences are meant to keep people/animals in or keep people/animals 
>>out?  Just asking...
>>
>>
>>
>
>They're supposed to protect America from all those terrorists 
>invading from Canada that the US Customs agency can't seem to screen at 
>the border, despite all the harassment they give to our allies and friends.
>
>  
>
>>I thought Al Gore's comment in "An Inconvenient Truth" about terrorism 
>>vs the environment (and I cannot recall the exact words), was very 
>>telling of the present plight we all face. Which, after all, is easier 
>>to fix?  Admitting there is a problem (has been difficult), awareness 
>>that there is a problem is easy (maybe not AS easy) but taking action 
>>(on the environment) is just not very popular.  No video games were 
>>made/sold in the resolution of global climate change (warming).
>>
>>
>>
>
>Dealing with the climate issue will have an indirect consequence of 
>significantly reducing our need to project power into the Persian Gulf 
>to defend oil supplies.  That would go a long way toward ameliorating 
>the hostility towards us that has been brewing in that region for the 
>past fifty years or so.  The other side of the equation, however, will 
>involve solving the Palestinian issue.
>
>Of course, I've been talking this way for thirty years now and no 
>one seems willing to listen.  My mother thinks we should bomb the rest 
>of the planet, calls my wife an "ignorant foreigner" (for suggesting 
>that the US spend less money on "defense" and more on infrastructure and 
>a social safety net) and told me to "go to hell" for suggesting that 
>people who claim to be Christians should actually reflect a Christ-like 
>attitude.  Sadly, this kind of mentality is common enough among American 
>citizens that no substantive policy changes will ever occur.
>
>robert luis rabello
>"The Edge of Justice"
>Adventure for Your Mind
>http://www.newadventure.ca
>
>Ranger Supercharger Project Page
>http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
>
>
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>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Weird Weather

[Thomas Kelly]

Robert,

 I read your post and then the following from an e-mail:

"More and more polar bear cubs are dying off on Alaska's northern coast, 
according to a government study released earlier this month . 
In fact, of polar bears studied between 1990 and last spring, only 25 cubs 
per 100 females survived. That's less than half the survival rate of polar bear 
cubs studied from 1967 to 1989! 
 Scientists point to rising temperatures and shrinking ice packs as a main 
cause of the polar bear's dramatic decline." 

 Evidence of climate change is coming from many different directions.

 I spent the afternoon trout fishing in the Catskill Mts of New York (US). 
Temps in the low 60's (F). Unusual for late Nov. The other fisherman I saw was 
wearing a Tee shirt. By now I should be using the new block heater I put in the 
car. I've already gone to my winter blend (70% BD : 30% winterized petro). 
Unusual    maybe nothing more      but .   weird weather, huh?
  Tom 
  - Original Message - 
  From: robert and benita rabello 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:07 PM
  Subject: [Biofuel] Weird Weather


  Hello everyone!

  I talked my sweetheart into renting "An Inconvenient Truth" over the 
weekend.  She finds it hard to sit through all of the science, but my boys were 
pretty interested throughout the film.  We've had a very strange year, 
weather-wise, in this area.  Back in January, we had the wettest month on 
record.  It came in the middle of a long, rainy but mild winter that blended 
into an early spring, bringing warm temperatures.  Our garden got a real 
kick-start from the mild temperatures in March and April.

  This summer ended up being the driest on record.  We went for WEEKS 
without rain.  (When I first came to BC to visit my sweetheart back in 1989, it 
rained  at least once, every day during the summer.)  Local creeks were so 
shallow I saw dead adult salmon stranded on the shore.  Autumn came with a 
vengeance though, bringing high winds and heavy rain that saturated the ground. 
 A couple of weeks ago, the remnants of a typhoon slammed into the west coast, 
bringing 800 mm of rainfall within a 24 hour period, just over the ridgeline 
from where we live.  We've had serious flooding, property damage and drowning 
deaths in our area.

  Over the past couple of days, however, a mass of outflowing arctic air 
has dropped the temperatures precipitously.  The wet ground crusted into ice.  
A frontal system from the Gulf of Alaska brought about 15 cm of very wet snow 
that fell on the ice and made driving so treacherous, the municipality actually 
closed the two roads that lead uphill to our neighborhood.  (These have since 
been re-opened.)  We've not seen the snowplow because the crews are so busy 
trying to keep the major routes clear.  In the meantime, people are struggling 
to get their machines uphill, and several have simply parked on the sides of 
the roads and walked home.  (What a unique concept!)

  Our Toyota has traction control, which I've learned makes the car utterly 
useless once the wheels start spinning.  It's not bad on compact snow, but 
anything deeper than the bottom of its rims renders the vehicle immobile pretty 
quickly.  In order to get my sweetheart to work this morning, I had to chip ice 
away from the front wheels and pour warm water around them to melt the ice 
underneath.

  What this kind of weather pattern illustrates is that the balance of 
temperatures and precipitation is changing.  We've set several records for 
rain, heat, drought and snowfall in a single year.  The overheated atmosphere 
is releasing its energy with increasing ferocity, and unless we take SERIOUS 
action soon, I think we're going to be in for a very wild ride in the near 
future.

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/

--


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Re: [Biofuel] The Great Fence of America

[robert and benita rabello]

Fred Oliff wrote:

> Who gets riich when they build this new fence?
>

Some company affiliated with congressmen and senators.

>   And is there going to be one on the northern borders as well?
>

Yes.  This has been a topic of derision among people in BC for the 
last several weeks.  I have a newspaper cartoon that shows Mr. Bush 
extoling the virtues of America's border with Canada.  He's shouting 
through a megaphone from the top of a barbed wire topped fence, complete 
with security cameras and a mine field.  An astonished Canadian, walking 
a dog, approaches the US border to hear Mr. Bush say:

"I cherish the unique and special relationship we have between our 
two countries.  Now, keep your hands where I can see them and step away 
from the wall!"


> Fences are meant to keep people/animals in or keep people/animals 
> out?  Just asking...
>

They're supposed to protect America from all those terrorists 
invading from Canada that the US Customs agency can't seem to screen at 
the border, despite all the harassment they give to our allies and friends.

> I thought Al Gore's comment in "An Inconvenient Truth" about terrorism 
> vs the environment (and I cannot recall the exact words), was very 
> telling of the present plight we all face. Which, after all, is easier 
> to fix?  Admitting there is a problem (has been difficult), awareness 
> that there is a problem is easy (maybe not AS easy) but taking action 
> (on the environment) is just not very popular.  No video games were 
> made/sold in the resolution of global climate change (warming).
>

Dealing with the climate issue will have an indirect consequence of 
significantly reducing our need to project power into the Persian Gulf 
to defend oil supplies.  That would go a long way toward ameliorating 
the hostility towards us that has been brewing in that region for the 
past fifty years or so.  The other side of the equation, however, will 
involve solving the Palestinian issue.

Of course, I've been talking this way for thirty years now and no 
one seems willing to listen.  My mother thinks we should bomb the rest 
of the planet, calls my wife an "ignorant foreigner" (for suggesting 
that the US spend less money on "defense" and more on infrastructure and 
a social safety net) and told me to "go to hell" for suggesting that 
people who claim to be Christians should actually reflect a Christ-like 
attitude.  Sadly, this kind of mentality is common enough among American 
citizens that no substantive policy changes will ever occur.

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/


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Re: [Biofuel] The Cultural Differences

[leo bunyan]

good to find americans that can laugh at themselves

Jason& Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:   HA HA HA!!! oh man! this is 
really funny. and the  jabs at americans are totally true... (BTW i am american 
sad to  say)
 Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
   From:leobunyan 
   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
   Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:11AM
   Subject: [Biofuel] The CulturalDifferences
   


Aussies: Dislike being mistaken for Pommies (Brits) when abroad. 
Canadians: Are rather indignant about being mistaken for Americans when
abroad. 
Americans: Encourage being mistaken for Canadians when abroad. 
Brits: Can't possibly be mistaken for anyone else when abroad. 
Aussies: Believe you should look out for your mates. 
Brits: Believe that you should look out for those people who belong to 
your club. 
Americans: Believe that people should look out for & take care of
themselves. 
Canadians: Believe that that's the government's job. 

Aussies: Are extremely patriotic to their beer. 
Americans: Are flag-waving, anthem-singing, and obsessively patriotic 
to the point of blindness. 
Canadians: Can't agree on the words to their anthem, when they can be
bothered to sing them. 
Brits: Do not sing at all but prefer a large brass band to perform the
anthem. 

Americans: Spend most of their lives
 glued to the idiot box. 
Canadians: Don't, but only because they can't get more American 
channels. 
Brits: Pay a tax just so they can watch four channels. 
Aussies: Export all their crappy programs, which no-one there watches, 
to Britain, where everybody loves them. 

Americans: Will jabber on incessantly about football, baseball, and
basketball. 
Brits: Will jabber on incessantly about cricket, soccer, and rugby. 
Canadians: Will jabber on incessantly about hockey, hockey, hockey, 
hockey, and how they beat the Americans twice, playing baseball. 
Aussies: Will jabber on incessantly about how they beat the Poms in 
every sport they play them in. 

Americans: Spell words differently, but still call it "English". 
Brits: Pronounce their words differently, but still call it "English". 
Canadians: Spell like the Brits, pronounce like Americans. 
Aussies: Add "G'day", "mate" and a heavy accent to everything they say 
in
 an attempt to get laid. 

Brits: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on an 
island. 
Aussies: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on an
island. 
Americans: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas, & liquor 
in a backwards country. 
Canadians: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas, & liquor 
in a backwards country. 

Americans: Drink weak, pissy-tasting beer. 
Canadians: Drink strong, pissy-tasting beer. 
Brits: Drink warm, beery-tasting piss. 
Aussies: Drink anything with alcohol in it. 

Americans: Seem to think that poverty & failure are morally suspect. 
Canadians: Seem to believe that wealth and success are morally suspect. 
Brits: Seem to believe that wealth, poverty, success and failure are
inherited things. 
Aussies: Seem to think that none of this matters after several beers
   Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com   
 
   

-

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-

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Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[leo bunyan]

I'm still here D
Funny how history repeats itself or stays the same
Really it's a bit pointless teaching history in schools 
as nobody seems to learn from it
Leo

"D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:   Thanks Bob. Good input!!! I  put 
that hoax article out there to see what the reponse would be.
 I hope Leo gets your comeback. I don't  want him to suffer from spinmeisterism.
 Peace, D. Mindock
- Original Message - 
   From:Bob Molloy
   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
   Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 3:22PM
   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The GreatThanksgiving Hoax
   

   Hi All,
  Hoaxindeed. This revisionist version of the Pilgrims Progress 
is pureunadulterated neo-con spin. Our masters continually rewrite history 
tomake it fit their political ambitions. As always, the aim is to blind
the Great Unwashed and line them up behind whatever their current schemeis 
to a) stay on top, b) hog all the goodies, and c) keep the peasants inline. 
   We don't need to know any facts at all aboutthe first colonists except 
the obvious that starving people aredesperate. They will even stoop to 
working in the fields if necessary just tostay alive, which would suggest 
that political orientation is muchlower on the individual's hierachy of 
needs. Yes, some diddie in the first years. How many of inherited diseases, 
poorhousing, worse diet and plain homesickness is just a guess. What we can 
   be sure of is that crop failure would be a likelyoutcome under alien 
conditions. We also know that theFounding Fathers learned quickly and soon 
adapted.  
   However, if an assessment of socialism as aworking concept is needed let 
us - instead of making assumptions about theoutcome of socialism in the 
first colony - take a look at how it actuallyworks out in practice in 
modern states. See below for a re-run of therecent Scientific American 
article.
   On the question of efficient production and useof resources, how about 
this fact (taken from "Freedom Next Time", JohnPilger's latest book: "The 
US military budget for one year is theequivalent of $30,000 an hour for 
every hour since Christ wasborn."  

   Bob.

 From: 
  Scientific American, Oct. 16, 2006
 [Printer-friendly version]

 The Social Welfare State, BeyondIdeology

 Are higher taxes and strong social "safetynets" antagonistic to a 
  prosperous market economy? The evidence isnow in.

 By JeffreyD. Sachs

 One of the great challenges of sustainabledevelopment is to combine 
  society's desires for economic prosperityand social security. For 
  decades economists and politicians havedebated how to reconcile the 
  undoubted power of markets with thereassuring protections of social 
  insurance. America's supply-sidersclaim that the best way to achieve 
  well-being for America's poor isby spurring rapid economic growth 
  and that the higher taxes neededto fund high levels of social 
  insurance would cripple prosperity.Austrian-born free-market 
  economist FriedrichAugust 
  von Hayek suggested in the 1940s that high taxation would bea "road 
  to serfdom," a threat to freedom itself.

 Most of the debate in the U.S. is cloudedby vested interests and by 
  ideology. Yet there is by now a richempirical record to judge these 
  issues scientifically. The evidencemay be found by comparing a group 
  of relatively free-marketeconomies that have low to moderate rates 
  of taxation and socialoutlays with a group of social-welfare states 
  that have high ratesof taxation and social outlays.

 Not coincidentally, the low-tax,high-income countries are mostly 
  English-speaking ones that share adirect historical lineage with 
  19th-century Britain and itstheories of 
  economic
  laissez-faire. These countries include Australia, Canada, Ireland,
  New Zealand, the U.K. and the U.S. The high-tax, high-income states
  are the Nordicsocial 
  democracies, notably Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden,which have 
  been governed by left-of-center social democraticparties for much or 
  all of the post-World War II era. They combinea healthy respect for 
  market forces with a strong commitment toantipoverty programs. 
  Budgetary outlays for social purposes averagearound 27 percent of 
  gross domestic product (GDP) in the Nordiccountries and just 17 
  percent of GDP in the English-speak

Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)

[Ken Provost]

On Nov 27, 2006, at 5:16 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote:



 Can ethanol be denatured and still be used to make ethyl esters?





Yes. I've used standard paint store denatured ethanol (hardware stores
rarely have anhydrous) with methanol and methyl isobutyl ketone  as
denaturants with no problems. As you say, the methanol just helps out
the reaction, and the MIBK is at such low levels as to not interfere.  
Be aware

that the ethanol in such mixtures was probly produced from petroleum.


Which of the following will have the least/no effect on the process  
of making ethyl esters?



(c) Authorized material. Until issuance of the initial list of  
materials authorized for
  rendering spirits unfit for beverage use, proprietors are  
authorized to add to each 100
  gallons of spirits any of the following materials in the  
quantities specified.

(1) 2 gallons or more of--
   (i) Gasoline or automotive gasoline


That one is my personal favorite -- few denaturants are acceptable at  
only 2%.
Gasoline is so nasty flavor-wise that it can be used at that  
concentration.

In addition, most ethanol denatured that way happens to be produced from
corn (not great, I know) rather than from ethylene, so you're more  
sure of

carbon-neutrality.

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Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[robert and benita rabello]

bob allen wrote:

>
>Clinton had an initiative to move towards universal health care at the 
>beginning of his first term, but the proposal went no where.  Costs 
>continue to rise  while more and more are left without insurance.  Maybe 
>with our ever so slight lurch to the left, we may see some movement 
>towards providing health care for all. 
>  
>

I liken the social safety net to a measure that prevents people from 
falling into a well.  Having lived under American style health care and 
socialized health care in Canada, I like to say that in the US, the 
social safety net only exists after you hit the bottom . . .

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/


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Re: [Biofuel] Weird Weather

[Fred Oliff]

unfortunately no one is making the policy makers waitch this movie.  it is largely preaching to the converted.  realist or pessimist,the both still bleed.


From: robert and benita rabello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: [Biofuel] Weird WeatherDate: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:07:44 -0800
Hello everyone!    I talked my sweetheart into renting "An Inconvenient Truth" over the weekend.  She finds it hard to sit through all of the science, but my boys were pretty interested throughout the film.  We've had a very strange year, weather-wise, in this area.  Back in January, we had the wettest month on record.  It came in the middle of a long, rainy but mild winter that blended into an early spring, bringing warm temperatures.  Our garden got a real kick-start from the mild temperatures in March and April.    This summer ended up being the driest on record.  We went for WEEKS without rain.  (When I first came to BC to visit my sweetheart back in 1989, it rained  at least once, every day during the summer.)  Local creeks 
were so shallow I saw dead adult salmon stranded on the shore.  Autumn came with a vengeance though, bringing high winds and heavy rain that saturated the ground.  A couple of weeks ago, the remnants of a typhoon slammed into the west coast, bringing 800 mm of rainfall within a 24 hour period, just over the ridgeline from where we live.  We've had serious flooding, property damage and drowning deaths in our area.    Over the past couple of days, however, a mass of outflowing arctic air has dropped the temperatures precipitously.  The wet ground crusted into ice.  A frontal system from the Gulf of Alaska brought about 15 cm of very wet snow that fell on the ice and made driving so treacherous, the municipality actually closed the two roads that lead uphill to our neighborhood.  (These have since been re-opened.)  We've not seen the 
snowplow because the crews are so busy trying to keep the major routes clear.  In the meantime, people are struggling to get their machines uphill, and several have simply parked on the sides of the roads and walked home.  (What a unique concept!)    Our Toyota has traction control, which I've learned makes the car utterly useless once the wheels start spinning.  It's not bad on compact snow, but anything deeper than the bottom of its rims renders the vehicle immobile pretty quickly.  In order to get my sweetheart to work this morning, I had to chip ice away from the front wheels and pour warm water around them to melt the ice underneath.    What this kind of weather pattern illustrates is that the balance of temperatures and precipitation is changing.  We've set several records for rain, heat, drought and snowfall in 
a single year.  The overheated atmosphere is releasing its energy with increasing ferocity, and unless we take SERIOUS action soon, I think we're going to be in for a very wild ride in the near future.robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
>___>Biofuel mailing list>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>



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Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[Fred Oliff]

maybe we ought to re-define what is meant by rich? what is wealth after all if you do not share it? And the Americans do! what is wealth if you do not have your health, but a huge burden?




From:  "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To:  biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo:  biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject:  Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving HoaxDate:  Mon, 27 Nov 2006 13:09:10 -0700>snicker snicker snicker, OK specificaly the USA ( richest country in the>world is a quote from a Canadian I met)>>> >From: Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax> >Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:33:13 -0500> >> >What?  Luxembourg doesn't have universal healthcare?> >> >> >> >JAMES PHELPS 
wrote:> >> > > I guess another question would be how this relates to freedom?  And> > > why is it the richest country in the world cannot come up with> > > universal health care.> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >___> >Biofuel mailing list> >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org> >> >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:> >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html> >> >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000> >messages):> >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/> 
>___>Biofuel mailing list>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>


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[Biofuel] The Great Fence of America

[Fred Oliff]

Who gets riich when they build this new fence?  And is there going to be one on the northern borders as well?  
Fences are meant to keep people/animals in or keep people/animals out?  Just asking...
I thought Al Gore's comment in "An Inconvenient Truth" about terrorism vs the environment (and I cannot recall the exact words), was very telling of the present plight we all face. Which, after all, is easier to fix?  Admitting there is a problem (has been difficult), awareness that there is a problem is easy (maybe not AS easy) but taking action (on the environment) is just not very popular.  No video games were made/sold in the resolution of global climate change (warming).
two cents




From:  "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To:  biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo:  biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject:  Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving HoaxDate:  Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:19:42 -0700>I guess another question would be how this relates to freedom?  And >why is it the richest country in the world cannot come up with >universal health care.>>On another beat, what was that saying on the statue of liberty?  I >wonder if that will have to be revisited concerning our new fence in >the south.?>>JimFrom: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>Subject: Re: 
[Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax>>Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 07:23:50 -0600universal health care, unlike in the USA where it's every man/women >>for>>his/her self.JAMES PHELPS wrote:>> > Wow that’s almost 4 to one worse. Also how do Canada, Sweden and>> > Iceland do so well coming from the free world?>> >>> > - Original Message ->> > *From:* bob allen >> > *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org>> > >> > *Sent:* Sunday, November 26, 2006 7:32 PM>> > *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] The 
Great Thanksgiving Hoax>> >>> >>> >>> > Kirk McLoren wrote:>> > > We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of >>very>> > poor. The>> > > corporations sell us on "frredom" yet the infant mortality >>in>> > Belize is>> > > better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is >>like>> > to live>> > > elsewhere.>> > > Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at >>statistics. Read>> > em and>> 
> > weep.>> >>> > I did and your off the mark. We do rank poorly among >>European and>> > some Asian countries but ahead of>> > most poorer countries.>> >>> > (36th on a list at>> > >>http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm)>> >>> >>> >>> > see http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html>> >>> > for example>> >>> > Belize 24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)>> > United States 6.69 
deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)>> >>> >>> > Canada 4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)>> > Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)>> > Sweden 3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)>> > Iceland 3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)>> > India 61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)>> > China 27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> > > Kirk>> 
> >>> > > */Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/>> > * wrote:>> > >>> > > On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> > >> > > > wrote:>> > >>> > > Leo,>> > > Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. >>It>> > > just appeared in>> > > my email inbox. The story does have a moral, 
whether it's>> > > correct or not,>> > > I not qualified to say.>> > > Peace, D. Mindock>> > >>> > > 11/23/2006>> > > *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax*>> > > /by Richard J. Marbury/>> > > snip>> > > Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the >>official>> > > story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only >>source of>> > > abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a >>country>> 
> > where we can have them.>> > > snip>> > >>> > >>> > > It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by >>the free>> > > market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard >>that God>> > > himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and >>only source>> > > of abundance is God?>> > >>> > > Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of >>genocide,>> > > slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not 
think about...>> > >>> > > Z>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > ___>> > > Biofuel mailing list>> > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org  > >>> > >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>> > >>> > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:>> > > 
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>> > >>> > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives >>(50,000>> 

Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars

[Jason& Katie]

most gasoline powered cars run at 8+ any more, so a true flex fuel vehicle 
(similar to the aforementioned 2 1/2 ton hauler) could be made from existing 
parts, its just the fuel feed adjustments that would give you problems. a 
computer would have to be built and programmed with multiple feedback 
functions to accomodate any mixture of the usable fuels.
Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
From: "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars


> Just to add some food for thought here on this subject.
>
> If you build the engine for the fuel type you will get top performance. 
> this
> performance may even exceed the performance of a  similar engine designed 
> to
> run on unleaded.  Where all the problems come from is trying to run 
> anengine
> designed for one fuel on another.  In exalmple if I wanted to get top
> performance out of propane fuel I would start with a 9-10 : 1 compression
> ratio would create an engine withas good or better performance to one
> designed at 7-8:1 designed for unleaded regular gasoline.
>
> Jim
>
>
>>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>To: 
>>Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars
>>Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:51:09 -0500
>>
>>Hi Zeke,
>>
>>  You wrote:  "I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol
>>denatured with either biodiesel or methanol."
>>
>>  Two questions:
>>1. I have heard/read from what I consider to be reliable sources that gas
>>cars can be converted to run fine on 80 - 85% ethanol (15 - 20% water).
>> True or False???
>>
>>  If this is the case, the fly in the ointment for a homebrewer (US) 
>> is
>>that the mix has to be denatured  .  unleaded gasoline is not a good
>>choice because of the water concentration. To denature with gasoline water
>>conc must be only 1 or  2% .   that's the tough part.
>>
>>2. If methanol is a suitable denaturant, at what level (%) does methanol
>>become a problem for engine parts?
>>
>>   I appreciate your thoughts on this.
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>>   - Original Message -
>>   From: Zeke Yewdall
>>   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>   Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 10:56 AM
>>   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   On 11/26/06, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Jim,
>>
>>  Add BD to denature   .   great idea.   Still perfectly
>>suitable for making ethyl esters.
>>  It wasn't on the list of possibilities, but there is an option 
>> to
>>apply for different denaturants.
>>
>>  The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for
>>drinking.
>> Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking?
>>
>>   I thought that biodiesel was non-toxic -- enough so that you could 
>> drink
>>  a 2% solution?   It you're going to drink 98% ethanol, are you going to
>>be concerned about a little biodiesel in there?
>>
>>
>>   I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol denatured with either
>>biodiesel or methanol.
>>
>>   Z
>>
>>  If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol?  ..  cut 
>> back
>>98+% on methanol use.
>>
>>  Uh-oh  Now YOU have me thinking   .   dangerous   am
>>using a table saw again today.
>>  Would 80 - 85% ethanol, denatured with methanol (2%?) be 
>> suitable
>>for "gas" cars?
>>
>>  Tom
>>   - Original Message -
>>   From: JAMES PHELPS
>>   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>   Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:16 PM
>>   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
>>
>>
>>   Joe and Tom,
>>   Yes they won't sell anhydrous Ethanol e-100 without adding gasoline
>>or . perhaps Biodiesel if the customer asks for it that
>>way, Hmm now if I can just get my friend at the Ethanol plant to use
>>Biodiesel to denture it instead of gas. H
>>
>>   Jim
>> - Original Message -
>> From: Thomas Kelly
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:42 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
>>
>>
>> Hi Joe,
>>  I didn't follow you when you wrote:
>> "I am really curious about the castor oil trick.  I wonder how to
>>do it?  I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and
>>I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom.  If there was a high
>>percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something
>>like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol 
>>off
>>the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below. 
>>I
>>haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl
>>eventually

Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)

[PAUL MILLER]

Just don't use off road ( red) #1 or #2.  less than 1% will result in a dark 
pink color for the entire batch.  If  #2 ULSD were used, you would gain a few 
btu's.  

- Original Message - 
  From: JAMES PHELPS 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:17 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)


  Kerosene works. It is neutral in the reaction and can be separated later by 
  freezing the bio. (If you would want to??)


  >From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  >Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  >To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>>
  >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
  >Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:16:39 -0500
  >
  >Hello Ken,
  >  Appreciate your input.
  >
  >  (Just a quick summary  in case anyone else is listening.)
  >
  >  While denatured ethanol may be used on the premises where it was 
  >produced, it must be denatured for transport or use in vehicles off 
  >"premises".
  >
  >  It seems that BD would not render the spirits "unfit for beverage 
  >use", so the question remains:
  >  Can ethanol be denatured and still be used to make ethyl esters?
  >(I don't see methanol on the list below, but it is my understanding that 
  >methanol is the denaturant in "denatured ethanol" available in hardware 
  >stores.)
  >  Which of the following will have the least/no effect on the process 
  >of making ethyl esters?
  >
  >  A list of the approved denaturants from the section, "Authorized 
  >Materials", .  for making ethanol unfit for beverage use   from the 
  >(US) Code of Federal Regulations.)
  >Sec. 19.1005  Authorized materials.(a) General. The Director shall 
  >determine and authorize for use materials for rendering spirits unfit for 
  >beverage use which will not impair the quality of the spirits for fuel use. 
  >Spirits treated under this section will be considered rendered unfit for 
  >beverage use and eligible for withdrawal as fuel alcohol.(b) List. The 
  >Director will compile and issue periodically a list of materials authorized 
  >for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use. The list will specify for 
  >each material (1) name and (2) quantity required to render spirits unfit 
  >for beverage use. The list may be obtained at no cost upon request from the 
  >ATF Distribution Center, 7943 Angus Court, Springfield, Virginia 22153.
  >(c) Authorized material. Until issuance of the initial list of materials 
  >authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use, proprietors are 
  >authorized to add to each 100 gallons of spirits any of the following 
  >materials in the quantities specified. (1) 2 gallons or more 
  >of--(i) Gasoline or automotive gasoline (for use in engines which 
  >require unleaded gasoline Environmental Protection Agency and manufacturers 
  >specifications may require that unleaded gasoline be used to render the 
  >spirits unfit for beverage use).(ii) Kerosene,(iii) Deodorized 
  >kerosene,(iv) Rubber hydrocarbon solvent,(v) Methyl isobutyl 
  >ketone,(vi) Mixed isomers of nitropropane,(vii) Heptane, or,
  >(viii) Any combination of (i) through (vii); or(2) \1/8\ ounce of 
  >denatonium benzoate N.F. and 2 gallons of isopropyl alcohol.(Sec. 232, Pub. 
  >L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 (26 U.S.C. 5181))[T.D. ATF-198, 50 FR 8464, Mar. 1, 
  >1985, as amended by T.D. ATF-249, 52 FR 5961, Feb. 27, 1987; T.D. ATF-442, 
  >66 FR 12854, Mar. 1, 2001] Thanks,  Tom
  >
  >   - Original Message -
  >   From: Ken Provost
  >   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  >   Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 12:45 PM
  >   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >   On Nov 26, 2006, at 7:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote:
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for 
  >drinking.
  > Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking?
  >
  > If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol?
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >   There are several levels of denaturing -- "fully denatured" needs to be
  >   foul-tasting, not just poisonous. Biodiesel wouldn't qualify as either 
  >:-)
  >
  >
  >   Ethanol denatured only with methanol is considered only partially
  >   denatured, and is still subject to restrictions and reporting.
  >
  >
  >   -K
  >
  >
  
>--
  >
  >
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  >
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  >   
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Re: [Biofuel] So, how in the heck does this work out

[Zeke Yewdall]

Not sure...  In California it's pretty easy, because the simple payback time
is only 5 to 8 years -- just do a 15 or 20 year financing of that, and it
works at realistic interest rates.   However, in Colorado, even with the
rebates and incentives, we're still around a 15 or 20 year payback, which
means that you'd have to finance it at zero interest rate for 20 years in
order to make it work.   It's also odd that the only advertising they've
done in our market is on Craigslist

Z

On 11/27/06, Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


economically?

http://renu.citizenre.com/

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Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[bob allen]

Howdy Bob, I certainly didn't mean to imply that our health care system 
is better than others.  I offered up the statistics only to correct a 
statement made by another. Personally  I am embarrassed by the poor 
overall state of health care in the USA and as I mentioned in another 
post, it is due principally to the lack of universal health care. 
Another factor is our downright foolish reluctance to teach about sex in 
public schools and on and on. 

Clinton had an initiative to move towards universal health care at the 
beginning of his first term, but the proposal went no where.  Costs 
continue to rise  while more and more are left without insurance.  Maybe 
with our ever so slight lurch to the left, we may see some movement 
towards providing health care for all. 

http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2006/11/27/news/latest_news/b1e8f84368598b8886257233007700f6.txt




Bob Molloy wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>   Why not compare apples with apples? If we really want to
> inform ourselves shouldn't we be comparing what it is in various western
> democracies that produces such important health statistics? Patting
> ourselves on the back for having better infant mortality rates than third
> world countries is of little help. Better to look to the front runners such
> as  Sweden and Norway (second and seventh respectively in the world ranking
> for infant mortality rates while the US is 36th). All three are democracies,
> the difference is that the first two are socialist in the sense that their
> governments own and run all the big ticket items such as water, power,
> education and health, with education and health provided free.
> Regards,
> Bob.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 3:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
>
>
>   
>> Kirk McLoren wrote:
>> 
>>> We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The
>>> corporations sell us on "frredom" yet the infant mortality in Belize is
>>> better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live
>>> elsewhere.
>>> Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and
>>> weep.
>>>   
>> I did and your off the mark.  We do rank poorly among European and some
>> 
> Asian countries but ahead of
>   
>> most poorer countries.
>>
>> (36th on a list at
>> 
> http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm)
>   
>>
>> see  http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html
>>
>> for example
>>
>> Belize  24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>> United States   6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>> Canada   4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>> Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>> Sweden3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>> Iceland   3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>> India  61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>> China  27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>> 
>
>   
>>> Kirk
>>>
>>> */Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
>>>
>>> On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> Leo,
>>>   Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It
>>> just appeared in
>>> my email inbox.  The story does have a moral, whether it's
>>> correct or not,
>>> I not qualified to say.
>>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>>
>>> 11/23/2006
>>> *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax*
>>> /by Richard J. Marbury/
>>> snip
>>> Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official
>>> story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of
>>> abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country
>>> where we can have them.
>>> snip
>>>
>>>
>>> It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free
>>> market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God
>>> himself.  Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source
>>> of abundance is God?
>>>
>>> Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide,
>>> slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about...
>>>
>>> Z
>>>   
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
>   


-- 


Bob Allen, ozarker.org/bob
--
Actually we are all atheists.  When you understand why you have 
rejected every other God but one, then you will understand why I have 
rejected yours.   -Aut

Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[JAMES PHELPS]

You must not have read his reply to me, he did just that, and he was not 
compairing any thing as far as I could tell just pointing out a mis 
information in another post.

Jim


>From: "Bob Molloy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: 
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
>Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:27:11 +1300
>
>Hi Bob,
>   Why not compare apples with apples? If we really want to
>inform ourselves shouldn't we be comparing what it is in various western
>democracies that produces such important health statistics? Patting
>ourselves on the back for having better infant mortality rates than third
>world countries is of little help. Better to look to the front runners such
>as  Sweden and Norway (second and seventh respectively in the world ranking
>for infant mortality rates while the US is 36th). All three are 
>democracies,
>the difference is that the first two are socialist in the sense that their
>governments own and run all the big ticket items such as water, power,
>education and health, with education and health provided free.
>Regards,
>Bob.
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 3:32 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
>
>
> >
> >
> > Kirk McLoren wrote:
> > > We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The
> > > corporations sell us on "frredom" yet the infant mortality in Belize 
>is
> > > better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live
> > > elsewhere.
> > > Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em 
>and
> > > weep.
> >
> > I did and your off the mark.  We do rank poorly among European and some
>Asian countries but ahead of
> > most poorer countries.
> >
> > (36th on a list at
>http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm)
> >
> >
> >
> > see  http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html
> >
> > for example
> >
> > Belize  24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> > United States   6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> > Canada   4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> > Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> > Sweden3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> > Iceland   3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> > India  61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> > China  27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>
> > > Kirk
> > >
> > > */Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> > >
> > > On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > Leo,
> > >   Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It
> > > just appeared in
> > > my email inbox.  The story does have a moral, whether it's
> > > correct or not,
> > > I not qualified to say.
> > > Peace, D. Mindock
> > >
> > > 11/23/2006
> > > *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax*
> > > /by Richard J. Marbury/
> > > snip
> > > Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the 
>official
> > > story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of
> > > abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a 
>country
> > > where we can have them.
> > > snip
> > >
> > >
> > > It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the 
>free
> > > market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that 
>God
> > > himself.  Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only 
>source
> > > of abundance is God?
> > >
> > > Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide,
> > > slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about...
> > >
> > > Z
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[Bob Molloy]

Hi Bob,
  Why not compare apples with apples? If we really want to
inform ourselves shouldn't we be comparing what it is in various western
democracies that produces such important health statistics? Patting
ourselves on the back for having better infant mortality rates than third
world countries is of little help. Better to look to the front runners such
as  Sweden and Norway (second and seventh respectively in the world ranking
for infant mortality rates while the US is 36th). All three are democracies,
the difference is that the first two are socialist in the sense that their
governments own and run all the big ticket items such as water, power,
education and health, with education and health provided free.
Regards,
Bob.


- Original Message -
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax


>
>
> Kirk McLoren wrote:
> > We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very poor. The
> > corporations sell us on "frredom" yet the infant mortality in Belize is
> > better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like to live
> > elsewhere.
> > Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read em and
> > weep.
>
> I did and your off the mark.  We do rank poorly among European and some
Asian countries but ahead of
> most poorer countries.
>
> (36th on a list at
http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm)
>
>
>
> see  http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html
>
> for example
>
> Belize  24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> United States   6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> Canada   4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> Sweden3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> Iceland   3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> India  61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> China  27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)

> > Kirk
> >
> > */Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
> >
> > On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > wrote:
> >
> > Leo,
> >   Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It
> > just appeared in
> > my email inbox.  The story does have a moral, whether it's
> > correct or not,
> > I not qualified to say.
> > Peace, D. Mindock
> >
> > 11/23/2006
> > *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax*
> > /by Richard J. Marbury/
> > snip
> > Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official
> > story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of
> > abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country
> > where we can have them.
> > snip
> >
> >
> > It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free
> > market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God
> > himself.  Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source
> > of abundance is God?
> >
> > Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide,
> > slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about...
> >
> > Z




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Re: [Biofuel] Weird Weather

[JAMES PHELPS]

By the way the Movie Inconvienent Truth is a good flick and well done.

But from what I have seen and heard in the news NPR - Grist etc - So much 
new information is available, however this new info just confirms the movie  
- only at a bit faster pace than what was thought before. (ice Caps and 
fresh water into the ocean)

Also there is now evidence that the Oceans have been absorbing CO2 and 
causing calcium shells to thin in some sea animals. This also mixed with the 
worlds NOX pollutants can cause Huge exaggerated algae blooms.

The one bright side to the blooms is the algae dies and the carbon is then 
sequesterd at the bottom of the sea - perhaps to little to late.

We cooking up quite a bit of changes to our system, wonder what it will look 
like when we are done.

Jim

Jim


>From: Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Weird Weather
>Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 16:44:38 -0500
>
>" Buckle up Dorothy cuz Kansas is goin bye bye"...-cipher
>
>
>
>robert and benita rabello wrote:
>
>>Hello everyone!
>>
>> I talked my sweetheart into renting "An Inconvenient Truth" over the 
>>weekend.  She finds it hard to sit through all of the science, but my boys 
>>were pretty interested throughout the film.  We've had a very strange 
>>year, weather-wise, in this area.  Back in January, we had the wettest 
>>month on record.  It came in the middle of a long, rainy but mild winter 
>>that blended into an early spring, bringing warm temperatures.  Our garden 
>>got a real kick-start from the mild temperatures in March and April.
>>
>> This summer ended up being the driest on record.  We went for WEEKS 
>>without rain.  (When I first came to BC to visit my sweetheart back in 
>>1989, it rained  at least once, every day during the summer.)  Local 
>>creeks were so shallow I saw dead adult salmon stranded on the shore.  
>>Autumn came with a vengeance though, bringing high winds and heavy rain 
>>that saturated the ground.  A couple of weeks ago, the remnants of a 
>>typhoon slammed into the west coast, bringing 800 mm of rainfall within a 
>>24 hour period, just over the ridgeline from where we live.  We've had 
>>serious flooding, property damage and drowning deaths in our area.
>>
>> Over the past couple of days, however, a mass of outflowing arctic 
>>air has dropped the temperatures precipitously.  The wet ground crusted 
>>into ice.  A frontal system from the Gulf of Alaska brought about 15 cm of 
>>very wet snow that fell on the ice and made driving so treacherous, the 
>>municipality actually closed the two roads that lead uphill to our 
>>neighborhood.  (These have since been re-opened.)  We've not seen the 
>>snowplow because the crews are so busy trying to keep the major routes 
>>clear.  In the meantime, people are struggling to get their machines 
>>uphill, and several have simply parked on the sides of the roads and 
>>walked home.  (What a unique concept!)
>>
>> Our Toyota has traction control, which I've learned makes the car 
>>utterly useless once the wheels start spinning.  It's not bad on compact 
>>snow, but anything deeper than the bottom of its rims renders the vehicle 
>>immobile pretty quickly.  In order to get my sweetheart to work this 
>>morning, I had to chip ice away from the front wheels and pour warm water 
>>around them to melt the ice underneath.
>>
>> What this kind of weather pattern illustrates is that the balance of 
>>temperatures and precipitation is changing.  We've set several records for 
>>rain, heat, drought and snowfall in a single year.  The overheated 
>>atmosphere is releasing its energy with increasing ferocity, and unless we 
>>take SERIOUS action soon, I think we're going to be in for a very wild 
>>ride in the near future.
>>
>>robert luis rabello
>>"The Edge of Justice"
>>Adventure for Your Mind
>>http://www.newadventure.ca
>>
>>Ranger Supercharger Project Page
>>http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
>>
>>
>>
>>___
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>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
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>>
>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>>messages):
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>>
>>


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Re: [Biofuel] Weird Weather

[Joe Street]

" Buckle up Dorothy cuz Kansas is goin bye bye"...-cipher



robert and benita rabello wrote:


Hello everyone!

I talked my sweetheart into renting "An Inconvenient Truth" over 
the weekend.  She finds it hard to sit through all of the science, but 
my boys were pretty interested throughout the film.  We've had a very 
strange year, weather-wise, in this area.  Back in January, we had the 
wettest month on record.  It came in the middle of a long, rainy but 
mild winter that blended into an early spring, bringing warm 
temperatures.  Our garden got a real kick-start from the mild 
temperatures in March and April.


This summer ended up being the driest on record.  We went for 
WEEKS without rain.  (When I first came to BC to visit my sweetheart 
back in 1989, it rained  at least once, every day during the summer.)  
Local creeks were so shallow I saw dead adult salmon stranded on the 
shore.  Autumn came with a vengeance though, bringing high winds and 
heavy rain that saturated the ground.  A couple of weeks ago, the 
remnants of a typhoon slammed into the west coast, bringing 800 mm of 
rainfall within a 24 hour period, just over the ridgeline from where 
we live.  We've had serious flooding, property damage and drowning 
deaths in our area.


Over the past couple of days, however, a mass of outflowing arctic 
air has dropped the temperatures precipitously.  The wet ground 
crusted into ice.  A frontal system from the Gulf of Alaska brought 
about 15 cm of very wet snow that fell on the ice and made driving so 
treacherous, the municipality actually closed the two roads that lead 
uphill to our neighborhood.  (These have since been re-opened.)  We've 
not seen the snowplow because the crews are so busy trying to keep the 
major routes clear.  In the meantime, people are struggling to get 
their machines uphill, and several have simply parked on the sides of 
the roads and walked home.  (What a unique concept!)


Our Toyota has traction control, which I've learned makes the car 
utterly useless once the wheels start spinning.  It's not bad on 
compact snow, but anything deeper than the bottom of its rims renders 
the vehicle immobile pretty quickly.  In order to get my sweetheart to 
work this morning, I had to chip ice away from the front wheels and 
pour warm water around them to melt the ice underneath.


What this kind of weather pattern illustrates is that the balance 
of temperatures and precipitation is changing.  We've set several 
records for rain, heat, drought and snowfall in a single year.  The 
overheated atmosphere is releasing its energy with increasing 
ferocity, and unless we take SERIOUS action soon, I think we're going 
to be in for a very wild ride in the near future.


robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] create your oen shower spa

[Kirk McLoren]

inexpensive and large spray pattern

JAMES PHELPS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Hmm, seems to be going backwards as 
far as water usage, comfort and 
appearance. Well to each his own lol

Jim


>From: Kirk McLoren 
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: biofuel 
>Subject: [Biofuel] create your oen shower spa
>Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:40:29 -0800 (PST)
>
>http://www.instructables.com/id/EBRBR1P2QYEPD7R0NP/?ALLSTEPS
>
>-
>Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.


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-
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Re: [Biofuel] create your oen shower spa

[JAMES PHELPS]

Hmm, seems to be going backwards as far as water usage, comfort and 
appearance. Well to each his own lol

Jim


>From: Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: biofuel 
>Subject: [Biofuel] create your oen shower spa
>Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:40:29 -0800 (PST)
>
>http://www.instructables.com/id/EBRBR1P2QYEPD7R0NP/?ALLSTEPS
>
>-
>Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.


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[Biofuel] Weird Weather

[robert and benita rabello]

Hello everyone!

   I talked my sweetheart into renting "An Inconvenient Truth" over the 
weekend.  She finds it hard to sit through all of the science, but my 
boys were pretty interested throughout the film.  We've had a very 
strange year, weather-wise, in this area.  Back in January, we had the 
wettest month on record.  It came in the middle of a long, rainy but 
mild winter that blended into an early spring, bringing warm 
temperatures.  Our garden got a real kick-start from the mild 
temperatures in March and April.


   This summer ended up being the driest on record.  We went for WEEKS 
without rain.  (When I first came to BC to visit my sweetheart back in 
1989, it rained  at least once, every day during the summer.)  Local 
creeks were so shallow I saw dead adult salmon stranded on the shore.  
Autumn came with a vengeance though, bringing high winds and heavy rain 
that saturated the ground.  A couple of weeks ago, the remnants of a 
typhoon slammed into the west coast, bringing 800 mm of rainfall within 
a 24 hour period, just over the ridgeline from where we live.  We've had 
serious flooding, property damage and drowning deaths in our area.


   Over the past couple of days, however, a mass of outflowing arctic 
air has dropped the temperatures precipitously.  The wet ground crusted 
into ice.  A frontal system from the Gulf of Alaska brought about 15 cm 
of very wet snow that fell on the ice and made driving so treacherous, 
the municipality actually closed the two roads that lead uphill to our 
neighborhood.  (These have since been re-opened.)  We've not seen the 
snowplow because the crews are so busy trying to keep the major routes 
clear.  In the meantime, people are struggling to get their machines 
uphill, and several have simply parked on the sides of the roads and 
walked home.  (What a unique concept!)


   Our Toyota has traction control, which I've learned makes the car 
utterly useless once the wheels start spinning.  It's not bad on compact 
snow, but anything deeper than the bottom of its rims renders the 
vehicle immobile pretty quickly.  In order to get my sweetheart to work 
this morning, I had to chip ice away from the front wheels and pour warm 
water around them to melt the ice underneath.


   What this kind of weather pattern illustrates is that the balance of 
temperatures and precipitation is changing.  We've set several records 
for rain, heat, drought and snowfall in a single year.  The overheated 
atmosphere is releasing its energy with increasing ferocity, and unless 
we take SERIOUS action soon, I think we're going to be in for a very 
wild ride in the near future.


robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/

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Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[JAMES PHELPS]

snicker snicker snicker, OK specificaly the USA ( richest country in the 
world is a quote from a Canadian I met)


>From: Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
>Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:33:13 -0500
>
>What?  Luxembourg doesn't have universal healthcare?
>
>
>
>JAMES PHELPS wrote:
>
> > I guess another question would be how this relates to freedom?  And
> > why is it the richest country in the world cannot come up with
> > universal health care.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars

[JAMES PHELPS]

Just to add some food for thought here on this subject.

If you build the engine for the fuel type you will get top performance. this 
performance may even exceed the performance of a  similar engine designed to 
run on unleaded.  Where all the problems come from is trying to run anengine 
designed for one fuel on another.  In exalmple if I wanted to get top 
performance out of propane fuel I would start with a 9-10 : 1 compression 
ratio would create an engine withas good or better performance to one 
designed at 7-8:1 designed for unleaded regular gasoline.

Jim


>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: 
>Subject: [Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars
>Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:51:09 -0500
>
>Hi Zeke,
>
>  You wrote:  "I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol 
>denatured with either biodiesel or methanol."
>
>  Two questions:
>1. I have heard/read from what I consider to be reliable sources that gas 
>cars can be converted to run fine on 80 - 85% ethanol (15 - 20% water).
> True or False???
>
>  If this is the case, the fly in the ointment for a homebrewer (US) is 
>that the mix has to be denatured  .  unleaded gasoline is not a good 
>choice because of the water concentration. To denature with gasoline water 
>conc must be only 1 or  2% .   that's the tough part.
>
>2. If methanol is a suitable denaturant, at what level (%) does methanol 
>become a problem for engine parts?
>
>   I appreciate your thoughts on this.
> Tom
>
>
>
>   - Original Message -
>   From: Zeke Yewdall
>   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>   Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 10:56 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
>
>
>
>
>
>   On 11/26/06, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jim,
>
>  Add BD to denature   .   great idea.   Still perfectly 
>suitable for making ethyl esters.
>  It wasn't on the list of possibilities, but there is an option to 
>apply for different denaturants.
>
>  The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for 
>drinking.
> Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking?
>
>   I thought that biodiesel was non-toxic -- enough so that you could drink 
>  a 2% solution?   It you're going to drink 98% ethanol, are you going to 
>be concerned about a little biodiesel in there?
>
>
>   I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol denatured with either 
>biodiesel or methanol.
>
>   Z
>
>  If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol?  ..  cut back 
>98+% on methanol use.
>
>  Uh-oh  Now YOU have me thinking   .   dangerous   am 
>using a table saw again today.
>  Would 80 - 85% ethanol, denatured with methanol (2%?) be suitable 
>for "gas" cars?
>
>  Tom
>   - Original Message -
>   From: JAMES PHELPS
>   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>   Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:16 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
>
>
>   Joe and Tom,
>   Yes they won't sell anhydrous Ethanol e-100 without adding gasoline 
>or . perhaps Biodiesel if the customer asks for it that 
>way, Hmm now if I can just get my friend at the Ethanol plant to use 
>Biodiesel to denture it instead of gas. H
>
>   Jim
> - Original Message -
> From: Thomas Kelly
> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
>
>
> Hi Joe,
>  I didn't follow you when you wrote:
> "I am really curious about the castor oil trick.  I wonder how to 
>do it?  I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and 
>I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom.  If there was a high 
>percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do something 
>like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off 
>the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below.  I 
>haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl 
>eventually as well."
>
>  I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in 
>castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed 
>to distill the alcohol from the castor oil.
>
> This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil 
>(or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to 
>distill the alcohol out.
>
>  What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a 
>selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil 
>floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to 
>select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the 
>top lay

Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[Joe Street]

What?  Luxembourg doesn't have universal healthcare?



JAMES PHELPS wrote:

> I guess another question would be how this relates to freedom?  And 
> why is it the richest country in the world cannot come up with 
> universal health care.
>
>  
>


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[Biofuel] So, how in the heck does this work out

[Chip Mefford]

economically?

http://renu.citizenre.com/

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Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[JAMES PHELPS]

I guess another question would be how this relates to freedom?  And why is 
it the richest country in the world cannot come up with universal health 
care.


On another beat, what was that saying on the statue of liberty?  I wonder if 
that will have to be revisited concerning our new fence in the south.?


Jim



From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 07:23:50 -0600

universal health care, unlike in the USA where it's every man/women for
his/her self.

JAMES PHELPS wrote:
> Wow that’s almost 4 to one worse. Also how do Canada, Sweden and
> Iceland do so well coming from the free world?
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* bob allen 
> *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> 
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 26, 2006 7:32 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
>
>
>
> Kirk McLoren wrote:
> > We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very
> poor. The
> > corporations sell us on "frredom" yet the infant mortality in
> Belize is
> > better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like
> to live
> > elsewhere.
> > Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read
> em and
> > weep.
>
> I did and your off the mark. We do rank poorly among European and
> some Asian countries but ahead of
> most poorer countries.
>
> (36th on a list at
> 
http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm)

>
>
>
> see http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html
>
> for example
>
> Belize 24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> United States 6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>
>
> Canada 4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> Sweden 3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> Iceland 3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> India 61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> China 27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Kirk
> >
> > */Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/
> * wrote:
> >
> > On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> > > wrote:
> >
> > Leo,
> > Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It
> > just appeared in
> > my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's
> > correct or not,
> > I not qualified to say.
> > Peace, D. Mindock
> >
> > 11/23/2006
> > *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax*
> > /by Richard J. Marbury/
> > snip
> > Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official
> > story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of
> > abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country
> > where we can have them.
> > snip
> >
> >
> > It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the 
free
> > market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that 
God
> > himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only 
source

> > of abundance is God?
> >
> > Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide,
> > slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about...
> >
> > Z
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
> >
> 
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> > messages):
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> 


> > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
> >
> 


>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 


> >
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
> >
> 
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> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
> (50,000 messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)

[Thomas Kelly]

Jim,
   I could live with 2% kerosene in the ethanol.

Tom
- Original Message - 
From: "JAMES PHELPS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)


> Kerosene works. It is neutral in the reaction and can be separated later 
> by
> freezing the bio. (If you would want to??)
>
>
>>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>To: 
>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
>>Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:16:39 -0500
>>
>>Hello Ken,
>>  Appreciate your input.
>>
>>  (Just a quick summary  in case anyone else is listening.)
>>
>>  While denatured ethanol may be used on the premises where it was
>>produced, it must be denatured for transport or use in vehicles off
>>"premises".
>>
>>  It seems that BD would not render the spirits "unfit for beverage
>>use", so the question remains:
>>  Can ethanol be denatured and still be used to make ethyl esters?
>>(I don't see methanol on the list below, but it is my understanding that
>>methanol is the denaturant in "denatured ethanol" available in hardware
>>stores.)
>>  Which of the following will have the least/no effect on the process
>>of making ethyl esters?
>>
>>  A list of the approved denaturants from the section, "Authorized
>>Materials", .  for making ethanol unfit for beverage use   from 
>>the
>>(US) Code of Federal Regulations.)
>>Sec. 19.1005  Authorized materials.(a) General. The Director shall
>>determine and authorize for use materials for rendering spirits unfit for
>>beverage use which will not impair the quality of the spirits for fuel 
>>use.
>>Spirits treated under this section will be considered rendered unfit for
>>beverage use and eligible for withdrawal as fuel alcohol.(b) List. The
>>Director will compile and issue periodically a list of materials 
>>authorized
>>for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use. The list will specify for
>>each material (1) name and (2) quantity required to render spirits unfit
>>for beverage use. The list may be obtained at no cost upon request from 
>>the
>>ATF Distribution Center, 7943 Angus Court, Springfield, Virginia 22153.
>>(c) Authorized material. Until issuance of the initial list of materials
>>authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use, proprietors are
>>authorized to add to each 100 gallons of spirits any of the following
>>materials in the quantities specified. (1) 2 gallons or more
>>of--(i) Gasoline or automotive gasoline (for use in engines which
>>require unleaded gasoline Environmental Protection Agency and 
>>manufacturers
>>specifications may require that unleaded gasoline be used to render the
>>spirits unfit for beverage use).(ii) Kerosene,(iii) Deodorized
>>kerosene,(iv) Rubber hydrocarbon solvent,(v) Methyl isobutyl
>>ketone,(vi) Mixed isomers of nitropropane,(vii) Heptane, or,
>>(viii) Any combination of (i) through (vii); or(2) \1/8\ ounce of
>>denatonium benzoate N.F. and 2 gallons of isopropyl alcohol.(Sec. 232, 
>>Pub.
>>L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 (26 U.S.C. 5181))[T.D. ATF-198, 50 FR 8464, Mar. 
>>1,
>>1985, as amended by T.D. ATF-249, 52 FR 5961, Feb. 27, 1987; T.D. ATF-442,
>>66 FR 12854, Mar. 1, 2001] Thanks,  Tom
>>
>>   - Original Message -
>>   From: Ken Provost
>>   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>   Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 12:45 PM
>>   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   On Nov 26, 2006, at 7:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for
>>drinking.
>> Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking?
>>
>> If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   There are several levels of denaturing -- "fully denatured" needs to be
>>   foul-tasting, not just poisonous. Biodiesel wouldn't qualify as either
>>:-)
>>
>>
>>   Ethanol denatured only with methanol is considered only partially
>>   denatured, and is still subject to restrictions and reporting.
>>
>>
>>   -K
>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>
>>   ___
>>   Biofuel mailing list
>>   Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>
>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>>   Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>   http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>>   Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>>messages):
>>   http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>
>
>>___
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>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>http:/

Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)

[JAMES PHELPS]

Go gettem Joe! we all wait a shivers for your results!


>From: Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
>Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:09:05 -0500
>
>Hi Tom;
>
>Yes you got the idea I am thinking about.  I worked a bit on the setup last 
>night.  I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( which is a 
>difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a  on the dryness 
>scale.  I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and pour in some 
>castor oil  which will float on the surface.  Since the flask narrows at 
>the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier layer.  I'll 
>heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens.  Perhaps the 
>alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said.  The only way 
>to know is to find out.  In the very least I'll have some high potency 
>ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry ethanol!!  
>Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find out.
>
>Tirah
>Joe
>
>Thomas Kelly wrote:
>
>>Hi Joe,
>>  I didn't follow you when you wrote:
>>"I am really curious about the castor oil trick.  I wonder how to do it?  
>>I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think 
>>the castor oil would sink to the bottom.  If there was a high percentage 
>>of water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal 
>>distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of 
>>the oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below.  I haven't 
>>done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl 
>>eventually as well."
>>   I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor 
>>oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to 
>>distill the alcohol from the castor oil.
>>  This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a 
>>lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill 
>>the alcohol out.
>>   What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a 
>>selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil 
>>floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to 
>>select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the 
>>top layer (vapor).
>>Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the castor 
>>oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure would 
>>remain low --->  a continuous stream from the liquid through the 
>>castor oil to the vapor layer and out.  Would the repulsive force 
>>(hydrophobic interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to 
>>prevent water vapor from "pushing" through the oil layer into the vapor 
>>layer?
>>  Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water to 
>>travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this 
>>occur in living cells).
>>   Maybe I have it all wrong.
>>  You do have me thinking. The last time that happened ..  "harmonic 
>>mixing"  ...  I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some 
>>grunt work   .  nothing dangerous.
>>Best to you     don't hesitate to correct me if I have it all 
>>wrong.
>>Tom
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> *From:* Joe Street 
>> *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> 
>> *Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
>>
>> Well Tom;
>> Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we
>> discussed.  You could make a trap by welding or modifying a
>> suitable pressure vessel.  I was thinking of using a scrapped fire
>> extinguisher. Put  a fitting on the other end end and screens in
>> the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside.  Wrap the whole thing
>> with heater tape and fiberglass insulation.  That would be sweet
>> but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the
>> seives..a risk I guess.
>> I am really curious about the castor oil trick.  I wonder how to
>> do it?  I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90%
>> pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom.  If
>> there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top
>> and you could do something like normal distillation through the
>> oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer
>> and gradually removing it from the water below.  I haven't done
>> any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl
>> eventually as well.
>>
>> soon
>> Joe
>>
>> Thomas Kelly wrote:
>>
>>> Joe,
>>>  I got a bi

Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)

[JAMES PHELPS]

Kerosene works. It is neutral in the reaction and can be separated later by 
freezing the bio. (If you would want to??)


>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: 
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
>Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:16:39 -0500
>
>Hello Ken,
>  Appreciate your input.
>
>  (Just a quick summary  in case anyone else is listening.)
>
>  While denatured ethanol may be used on the premises where it was 
>produced, it must be denatured for transport or use in vehicles off 
>"premises".
>
>  It seems that BD would not render the spirits "unfit for beverage 
>use", so the question remains:
>  Can ethanol be denatured and still be used to make ethyl esters?
>(I don't see methanol on the list below, but it is my understanding that 
>methanol is the denaturant in "denatured ethanol" available in hardware 
>stores.)
>  Which of the following will have the least/no effect on the process 
>of making ethyl esters?
>
>  A list of the approved denaturants from the section, "Authorized 
>Materials", .  for making ethanol unfit for beverage use   from the 
>(US) Code of Federal Regulations.)
>Sec. 19.1005  Authorized materials.(a) General. The Director shall 
>determine and authorize for use materials for rendering spirits unfit for 
>beverage use which will not impair the quality of the spirits for fuel use. 
>Spirits treated under this section will be considered rendered unfit for 
>beverage use and eligible for withdrawal as fuel alcohol.(b) List. The 
>Director will compile and issue periodically a list of materials authorized 
>for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use. The list will specify for 
>each material (1) name and (2) quantity required to render spirits unfit 
>for beverage use. The list may be obtained at no cost upon request from the 
>ATF Distribution Center, 7943 Angus Court, Springfield, Virginia 22153.
>(c) Authorized material. Until issuance of the initial list of materials 
>authorized for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use, proprietors are 
>authorized to add to each 100 gallons of spirits any of the following 
>materials in the quantities specified. (1) 2 gallons or more 
>of--(i) Gasoline or automotive gasoline (for use in engines which 
>require unleaded gasoline Environmental Protection Agency and manufacturers 
>specifications may require that unleaded gasoline be used to render the 
>spirits unfit for beverage use).(ii) Kerosene,(iii) Deodorized 
>kerosene,(iv) Rubber hydrocarbon solvent,(v) Methyl isobutyl 
>ketone,(vi) Mixed isomers of nitropropane,(vii) Heptane, or,
>(viii) Any combination of (i) through (vii); or(2) \1/8\ ounce of 
>denatonium benzoate N.F. and 2 gallons of isopropyl alcohol.(Sec. 232, Pub. 
>L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 (26 U.S.C. 5181))[T.D. ATF-198, 50 FR 8464, Mar. 1, 
>1985, as amended by T.D. ATF-249, 52 FR 5961, Feb. 27, 1987; T.D. ATF-442, 
>66 FR 12854, Mar. 1, 2001] Thanks,  Tom
>
>   - Original Message -
>   From: Ken Provost
>   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>   Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 12:45 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
>
>
>
>
>   On Nov 26, 2006, at 7:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote:
>
>
>
>
> The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for 
>drinking.
> Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking?
>
> If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   There are several levels of denaturing -- "fully denatured" needs to be
>   foul-tasting, not just poisonous. Biodiesel wouldn't qualify as either 
>:-)
>
>
>   Ethanol denatured only with methanol is considered only partially
>   denatured, and is still subject to restrictions and reporting.
>
>
>   -K
>
>
>--
>
>
>   ___
>   Biofuel mailing list
>   Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>   
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
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>   http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>   Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>messages):
>   http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>


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>messages):
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Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)

[Joe Street]

Hi Tom;

Yes you got the idea I am thinking about.  I worked a bit on the setup 
last night.  I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years back ( 
which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a  
on the dryness scale.  I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask 
and pour in some castor oil  which will float on the surface.  Since the 
flask narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the 
barrier layer.  I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what 
happens.  Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them 
as you said.  The only way to know is to find out.  In the very least 
I'll have some high potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm 
lucky I'll have dry ethanol!!  Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart 
crossed, hoping to find out.


Tirah
Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:


Hi Joe,
 I didn't follow you when you wrote:
"I am really curious about the castor oil trick.  I wonder how to do 
it?  I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure 
and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom.  If there was a 
high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do 
something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating 
pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it 
from the water below.  I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course 
the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well."
 
 I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in 
castor oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then 
proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil.
 
This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or 
a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to 
distill the alcohol out.
 
 What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a 
selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil 
floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act 
to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) 
to the top layer (vapor).
Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the 
castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial 
pressure would remain low --->  a continuous stream from the 
liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. 
 Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water 
and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from "pushing" 
through the oil layer into the vapor layer?
 Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water 
to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like 
this occur in living cells).
 
 Maybe I have it all wrong.
 You do have me thinking. The last time that happened ..  
"harmonic mixing"  ...  I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. 
Today I do some grunt work   .  nothing dangerous.
 
  Best to you     don't hesitate to correct me if I have it 
all wrong.
 
  Tom


- Original Message -
*From:* Joe Street 
*To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org

*Sent:* Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)

Well Tom;
Seives will definitely do but there are the nagging problems we
discussed.  You could make a trap by welding or modifying a
suitable pressure vessel.  I was thinking of using a scrapped fire
extinguisher. Put  a fitting on the other end end and screens in
the bottom to keep the seive pellets inside.  Wrap the whole thing
with heater tape and fiberglass insulation.  That would be sweet
but if you ever had a boilover it would mean oil contaminating the
seives..a risk I guess.
I am really curious about the castor oil trick.  I wonder how to
do it?  I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90%
pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom.  If
there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top
and you could do something like normal distillation through the
oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer
and gradually removing it from the water below.  I haven't done
any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl
eventually as well.

soon
Joe

Thomas Kelly wrote:


Joe,
 I got a bit discouraged re: the distillation of ethanol.
 I have plans for making a reflux still out of a beer keg. I
think it will distill to 92 - 95% purity. A friend gave me a beer
keg  .   problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to get a tap and
empty it.
 
 I think your idea of a trap, containing zeolite, between the

still and the condenser is a good one. Vacuum would allow for
regeneration of the zeolite at temps low eno

[Biofuel] Ethanol for gas cars

[Thomas Kelly]

Hi Zeke,

 You wrote:  "I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol denatured 
with either biodiesel or methanol."

 Two questions:
1. I have heard/read from what I consider to be reliable sources that gas cars 
can be converted to run fine on 80 - 85% ethanol (15 - 20% water). 
True or False???

 If this is the case, the fly in the ointment for a homebrewer (US) is that 
the mix has to be denatured  .  unleaded gasoline is not a good choice 
because of the water concentration. To denature with gasoline water conc must 
be only 1 or  2% .   that's the tough part.

2. If methanol is a suitable denaturant, at what level (%) does methanol become 
a problem for engine parts?

  I appreciate your thoughts on this.
Tom



  - Original Message - 
  From: Zeke Yewdall 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 10:56 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)





  On 11/26/06, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jim,

 Add BD to denature   .   great idea.   Still perfectly suitable 
for making ethyl esters.
 It wasn't on the list of possibilities, but there is an option to 
apply for different denaturants.

 The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for 
drinking. 
Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking?

  I thought that biodiesel was non-toxic -- enough so that you could drink  a 
2% solution?   It you're going to drink 98% ethanol, are you going to be 
concerned about a little biodiesel in there? 


  I think that a gas car would run fine on ethanol denatured with either 
biodiesel or methanol.

  Z

 If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol?  ..  cut back 98+% 
on methanol use.

 Uh-oh  Now YOU have me thinking   .   dangerous   am using a 
table saw again today.
 Would 80 - 85% ethanol, denatured with methanol (2%?) be suitable for 
"gas" cars?  

 Tom
  - Original Message - 
  From: JAMES PHELPS 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 11:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)


  Joe and Tom,
  Yes they won't sell anhydrous Ethanol e-100 without adding gasoline or 
. perhaps Biodiesel if the customer asks for it that way, Hmm 
now if I can just get my friend at the Ethanol plant to use Biodiesel to 
denture it instead of gas. H

  Jim
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Kelly 
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 5:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)


Hi Joe,
 I didn't follow you when you wrote:
"I am really curious about the castor oil trick.  I wonder how to do 
it?  I think the methanol I have recovered is already over 90% pure and I think 
the castor oil would sink to the bottom.  If there was a high percentage of 
water the oil would float on top and you could do something like normal 
distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the 
oil layer and gradually removing it from the water below.  I haven't done any 
experiments yet. Of course the goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well."

 I thought the idea was to dissolve the distilled alcohol in castor 
oil, then remove the water that does not dissolve and then proceed to distill 
the alcohol from the castor oil.

This would require alcohol to be highly soluble in castor oil (or a 
lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the more energy to distill the 
alcohol out.

 What you are saying, if I have it right, reminds me of a 
selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of castor oil floating on 
a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a sense, act to select which 
molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) to the top layer (vapor).
Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would vaporize from the 
castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still its partial pressure 
would remain low --->  a continuous stream from the liquid through the 
castor oil to the vapor layer and out. 
 Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic interaction) between water 
and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water vapor from "pushing" through the 
oil layer into the vapor layer?
 Would the interactions between the alcohol and water allow water 
to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport systems like this 
occur in living cells).

 Maybe I have it all wrong. 
 You do have me thinking. The last time that happened ..  "harmonic 
mixing"  ...  I almost buzzed a finger on the table saw. Today I do some grunt 
work   .  nothing

Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[bob allen]

universal health care, unlike in the USA where it's every man/women for 
his/her self.

JAMES PHELPS wrote:
> Wow that’s almost 4 to one worse. Also how do Canada, Sweden and 
> Iceland do so well coming from the free world?
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* bob allen 
> *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> 
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 26, 2006 7:32 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
>
>
>
> Kirk McLoren wrote:
> > We have some very wealthy people but a huge quantity of very
> poor. The
> > corporations sell us on "frredom" yet the infant mortality in
> Belize is
> > better than here. Most Americans havent a clue what it is like
> to live
> > elsewhere.
> > Spend an afternoon with the almanac and look at statistics. Read
> em and
> > weep.
>
> I did and your off the mark. We do rank poorly among European and
> some Asian countries but ahead of
> most poorer countries.
>
> (36th on a list at
> http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Infant_Mortality_Rate_aall.htm)
>
>
>
> see http://www.brainyatlas.com/fields/2091.html
>
> for example
>
> Belize 24.31 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> United States 6.69 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>
>
> Canada 4.95 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> Afghanistan 144.76 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> Sweden 3.44 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> Iceland 3.53 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> India 61.47 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
> China 27.25 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Kirk
> >
> > */Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/
> * wrote:
> >
> > On 11/24/06, *D. Mindock* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> > > wrote:
> >
> > Leo,
> > Here's something about the Thanksgiving here in the USA. It
> > just appeared in
> > my email inbox. The story does have a moral, whether it's
> > correct or not,
> > I not qualified to say.
> > Peace, D. Mindock
> >
> > 11/23/2006
> > *The Great Thanksgiving Hoax*
> > /by Richard J. Marbury/
> > snip
> > Thus the real reason for Thanksgiving, deleted from the official
> > story, is: Socialism does not work; the one and only source of
> > abundance is free markets, and we thank God we live in a country
> > where we can have them.
> > snip
> >
> >
> > It always amuses me to find people who are so entralled by the free
> > market that they actually seem to hold it in higher regard that God
> > himself. Wouldn't a true Christian say that the one and only source
> > of abundance is God?
> >
> > Also left out the Thanksgiving story is a fair bit of genocide,
> > slavery, and other stuff we'd rather not think about...
> >
> > Z
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
> >
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> > messages):
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
> >
> 
> 
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> >
> > ___
> > Biofuel mailing list
> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
> >
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
> (50,000 messages):
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.16/551 - Release Date:
> 11/25/2006
> >
>
>
> -- 
> Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
> =
> The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest
> exercises in moral philosophy; 

Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)

[Thomas Kelly]

Hello Ken,
 Appreciate your input. 

 (Just a quick summary  in case anyone else is listening.)
 
 While denatured ethanol may be used on the premises where it was produced, 
it must be denatured for transport or use in vehicles off "premises".

 It seems that BD would not render the spirits "unfit for beverage use", so 
the question remains:
 Can ethanol be denatured and still be used to make ethyl esters?
(I don't see methanol on the list below, but it is my understanding that 
methanol is the denaturant in "denatured ethanol" available in hardware 
stores.) 
 Which of the following will have the least/no effect on the process of 
making ethyl esters?

 A list of the approved denaturants from the section, "Authorized 
Materials", .  for making ethanol unfit for beverage use   from the 
(US) Code of Federal Regulations.) 
Sec. 19.1005  Authorized materials.(a) General. The Director shall 
determine and authorize for use materials for rendering spirits unfit for 
beverage use which will not impair the quality of the spirits for fuel use. 
Spirits treated under this section will be considered rendered unfit for 
beverage use and eligible for withdrawal as fuel alcohol.(b) List. The 
Director will compile and issue periodically a list of materials authorized for 
rendering spirits unfit for beverage use. The list will specify for each 
material (1) name and (2) quantity required to render spirits unfit for 
beverage use. The list may be obtained at no cost upon request from the ATF 
Distribution Center, 7943 Angus Court, Springfield, Virginia 22153.(c) 
Authorized material. Until issuance of the initial list of materials authorized 
for rendering spirits unfit for beverage use, proprietors are authorized to add 
to each 100 gallons of spirits any of the following materials in the quantities 
specified. (1) 2 gallons or more of--(i) Gasoline or automotive 
gasoline (for use in engines which require unleaded gasoline Environmental 
Protection Agency and manufacturers specifications may require that unleaded 
gasoline be used to render the spirits unfit for beverage use).(ii) 
Kerosene,(iii) Deodorized kerosene,(iv) Rubber hydrocarbon solvent,
(v) Methyl isobutyl ketone,(vi) Mixed isomers of nitropropane,(vii) 
Heptane, or,(viii) Any combination of (i) through (vii); or(2) \1/8\ 
ounce of denatonium benzoate N.F. and 2 gallons of isopropyl alcohol.(Sec. 232, 
Pub. L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 (26 U.S.C. 5181))[T.D. ATF-198, 50 FR 8464, Mar. 
1, 1985, as amended by T.D. ATF-249, 52 FR 5961, Feb. 27, 1987; T.D. ATF-442, 
66 FR 12854, Mar. 1, 2001] Thanks,  Tom
 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Ken Provost 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 12:45 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)




  On Nov 26, 2006, at 7:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote:




The idea on denaturing the ethanol is to make it unsuitable for drinking. 
Would ~ 2% BD make it unsuitable for drinking?

If not, couldn't it be denatured with methanol?






  There are several levels of denaturing -- "fully denatured" needs to be
  foul-tasting, not just poisonous. Biodiesel wouldn't qualify as either :-)


  Ethanol denatured only with methanol is considered only partially
  denatured, and is still subject to restrictions and reporting.


  -K


--


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