[biofuel] Filters and Keith's words on out disagreements
Keith, as you know, I'm on web-only delivery for the messages at this list, unless I email them to myself first. So because I dont have this stuff archived in my Eudora mail reader program, I just went through and cut-and-pasted into Word all the messages from the past week that you're asking me to respond to. I put it into Word so I could print it out. Trying this (printing) was a mistake: Not counting my separate posts, not counting James or Gustl's or mine or Terry's or Pan_ruti's or anyone else's posts, Kieth alone has posted to this list, 23,095 words (my word processor gives a word count on it) in the past few days on the topics of me, netiquette, whether im 'promoting' something, whether or not I answered old messages where we disagreed, responses to Terry and Mark McElvy, and and a number of other points (this word count including untrimmed threads that just Keith alone re-posted). This came out to 70 pages of unformatted email in Word, all from one person (I of course then didn't print it, I was expecting about 5 pages). Anyway I bring this up because the reason I posted 'Gentlemen, set your filters' is that peopel regularly complain on lists that high volumes of email are difficult for them to deal with, and because I knew I'd be sending out long stuff, replying in-line to Keith's long posts, etc. James Slayden asked if this could be 'taken offlist'. I mistakenly thought that more people besides James had also said this onlist (I think they did, but not at [biofuel]. My point about filters was meant for those people who didn't want to get flooded with long emails, and also for those who thought that this should be offlist, (of whom I mistakenly though there were more, requesting this publically). My opinion is that my filter message was taken to read as 'watch out Im going to post something nasty and you might not want to read it' or something like that. That was not what was meant at all. Mark Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: MEASURING WVO FOR MIXING
What I do is to calibrate the water heater first, from a smaller measuring container, and set a mark on the sight tube (or on the pump output/sight tube ifyou don't have a separate sight tube) when I've reached the quantity that I think the water heater will handle. I use the calibrated 5-gallon carboys to measure the volume in the reactor as well. It's not good to go from english to metric measurements, but if you don't have something calibrated in liters, the carboys are your next best bet. Fill them with oil to the exact 5 gallon mark and attach them to what is normally the methoxide inlet. shut off the tank isolation valve (ie the main valve between tank and the rest of the plumbing). Then the pump will eventually draw from the carboy (assuming the carboy is higher than the pump and is on it's side...) Keep track of how many carboys you put in, but after the first 10 gallons or so, you can just measure how much the mark on teh sight tube will go up for every 5 gallons. You'll need to leave room for methanol, and also make note that most water heaters are somewhat over-rated as far as their capacity- by maybe 8% or so? so a 50 gallon will only hold 46 or something like that. Convert over to liters before making your batch, so that you don't make a math mistake by accident on measuring the other ingredients. girl mark www.localB100.com --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, mark johnson II [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I PROBABLY BE ASKING ALOT OF QUESTIONS UNTIL I UNDERSTAND THE WHOLE PROCESS. I HAVE A 55 GALLON DRUM FOR MY WVO. AFTER I 'VE MADE MY METHOXIDE, ETC... HOW DO I KNOW HOW MUCH WVO TO PUMP INTO THE MY WATER HEATER? HOW DO I MEASURE THE WVO WHILE IT'S IN THE DRUM,AND BEFORE IT GOES IN WATER HEATER? THIS JUST DAWNED ON ME ON MY WAY BACK FROM GETTING SUPPLIES FOR MY FIRST TEST BATCH. I AM TRYING TO GET MY APPLE SEED PROSSER READY FOR WHEN I GET MY TEST BATCHES RIGHT. _ Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Love Those one inch Clear Water Pumps
If you read the original long www.veggieavenger.com/media thread on the Appleseed (keith please link this thread from the journeytoforever article it's derived from), you will find an even cooler discovery that someone else made: the Pathtofreedom.com folks use their carboys to prime the processor for the first time (stick a 3/4 hose barb on the carboy lid and plug that into the fill/drain tube). But having a separate preheat tank like you have, is even nicer, as it lets you deal with completely goopy thick oil, and expands your production capacity. mark www.localB100.com --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, bioveging [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all; Something happened, somewhat by accident (comes with being forgetful) that resolves the problem of the non-self priming Clear Water Pump that many of us are using. As has been mentioned numerous, times they kinda suck, or actually don't very well :), but that problem is now solved. How? God's own gravity. Instead of having the pump suck from a pail or bucket or whatever below it's position one needs to only gravity feed the WVO into the pump and no priming is necesssary. I do not know if this will work with cold WVO, but it does for sure work with pre-heated WVO, which I discoverd completely by accident having forgotten to prime it when I was ready to load the reactor after having heated my WVO to a little over 55C. As I opened the valve on my pre-heat tank (38 liter capapcity)and the intake valve to the pump I noticed that the sight tube registered oil in the lines, so I simply flipped on the switch to the pump and voila! pumped away like it is supposed to, so move those pails/tanks/drums ect... above the level of the pump and never have to prime again. Have a nice day. L. PS: I now have 40 liters in the wash tank and another 40 in the reactor settling for me this PM once I quality test the later. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] for member bioveging:
When are you going to post (somewhere) some photos of this cabinet system of yours? please? Mark Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Love Those one inch Clear Water Pumps -G-Mark
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, bioveging [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All this came about by following your recommendations and hints, G- Mark. The gravity feed Hey, thank you very much for the kind words, but it's not just me who designed that system by any stretch. Lots and lots of people's ideas have been creeping into the water heater processor design and helping it evolve, and that's why you should also add to it by posting your own photos in the veggieavenger.com open-source biodiesel equipment forum, to add to the general knowledge (or even post descriptions if you dont have a camera). Thanks for the positive feedback anyway, even though it should go out to everybody who contributed! I really hope the other people who have contributed realise how much their contributions have helped newcomers. mark Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Need help on setup of processor
Hello Al, My comments between yours below... --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, pcambulance2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I am a newbie to this site. I am located in Louisiana and looking for lots of guidance on setting up my own system. I have been on several sites. Initially I wanted to purchase the fuelmiester system but looking at several posts, I am convinced that I need to setup my own system. I am hoping that I have someone close that I can look at their system. Maybe someone is looking to build a bigger processor and wants to sell their smaller unit. http://www.utahbiodiesel.org/~jack/ http://www.veggieavenger.com/ http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel.html Right now I am leaning towards the hot water heater based system. Is that the best system for doing this? I started promoting these system designs because absolutely anyone in the US can find the parts readily, and they're cheap, and easy to assemble. Also, I think the safety margin on water heaters is a bit better than on some other types of flimsier tanks, and they're already partially wired and insulated, which is an easy starter reactor. If you can weld, or can pay someone locally to do some welding, you have a lot more options using other types of tanks that you might have available at your salvage yards. If you want a small system, I'd recommend trying to make something out of a beer keg or a 100 pound (25 gallon) discarded (or brand new) propane tank if you're a handy person or can pay a weld shop to do it, but otherwise, water heaters are extremely easy to work with even with no prior skills, and are readily available in the US. I recommend pretty much anything that's NOT copper, galvanized, or plastic, as a reactor tank, it all depends on the availability and your skill level or desire to learn the fabrication skills at this time. I am a little concerned about safety issues with the system. I really would like a self contained application so don't have to worry about spillage. the other way to make it safer is to hard-plumb (ie in black steel pipe) the output from the pump (what's normally just a tube that goes from the pump and returns back to the tank). You'd also want to add a sight tube (that can be shut off with valves while in use) so you can see the level you're filling the tank to. A photo of this type of setup (and a complete system, with two wash tanks or settling tanks) is at: http://www.veggieavenger.com/avengerboard/viewtopic.php?t=453 It might look a little more complicated in Steve;s case than it absolutely needs to. I also needs groups recommendation on the following pump. Is it worth the money or is their a better solution out there? Dispensing bio-diesel http://www.biodieselwarehouse.com/12vobifupu.html I can't tell what brand this one is. At my house we use a Northern cheapo (same price as his is selling for, probably something very similar to what he's selling) and it's fine for dispensing finished biodiesel. But you don't absolutely need to invest in such a pump just for dispensing. You can use a $20 cast iron cheapo handcranked barrel pump from Harbor Freight, or from local farm supply places if you have them nearby, to pump finished fuel through your filter (my filter is a $20 whole house water filter from Lowe's, the blue canister type that takes 5 micron sediment cartridges designed for filtering water). You can also rig your Appleseed processor so that the clear water pump (processor pump) filters the fuel on the way out of the wash barrel. Retrieving waste out from pickup locations http://www.biodieselwarehouse.com/12vodupu.html This one is a really nice pump, if it's the one Im thinking of. I've seen it used by customers of Neoteric Biofuels- from the biodieselwarehouse photo it looks like it's a FilRite, which is a good quality company that makes nice pumps. I'd like to have one myself, if it's the same model as Neoteric sells. Craig Reece of neoteric put his into a big ammo box for portability, and powers it off one of those cheap 'emergency jump starter' units from the auto parts store, which is a very small battery with two jumper cables, a handle, and a charger all built in. I power my own small 12V pump off a deep cycle battery and I curse every time I have to unload it. Not intended to advertise, just want feedback. Also I don't see a way to filter the fluids being picked up and dispensed. I have read that you need to prefilter the waste oil on pickup so it does not clog your filter. You prefilter waste oil only if using it for SVO-converted cars, in which case filtering is very important. For biodiesel making, I personally don't really filter it at all, but I usually get nice liquid oil without too much garbage in it. If you're making biodiesel out of it, most homebrewers 'at most' need only to strain it using coarse mesh (so french fry bits and broken
[biofuel] Re: Questions Speed-up washing biodiesel
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Shea [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: settled soap murky water (looked like melted marshmallows). that's what emulsion looks like. Do you have as much biodiesel as you started with? mark Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: IBC PROCESSOR
They make good wash tanks for really large processors. AT the Berkeley Biodiesel Coop we also used two of them to store several batches before washing- we'd make several batches and put them into the first IBC, let them settle for a couple of weeks while we filled the second IBC (settling helps us have easier washing as glycerol and soap settles more with a long wait time like this) and then wash. But they don't drain as well as you might like, plus they're not really designed for heat. I have several of these and was using one for oil storage last year- it was in the sun, and it's not all that hot here- and the plastic started to bulge out through the cage a little pretty quickly (ie I don't think that UV was the problem that quickly, it really looked like heat). I had the EMT conduit type cage with relatively large squares. There are other types with smaller wire squares as the cage, or sheet metal support sides instead of a cage made out of tubing like mine had. Dale Scroggins who invented the first water heater reactor we all heard about (the touchless on journeytoforever) is now making fuel in an IBC as he's fueling a bunch of family members. IBC's are the perfect size tank in the US for large batches as they'll let you do a 200 gallons of oil and one 55 gallon drum of methanol batches. But the usual problems of plastics apply- and although I can get many of these for free, I'm planning instead on using a 300 gallon steel diesel storage tank (the cylinder on it's side type of tank) and simply washing in an IBC. The other problem is that large batches like this are more difficult to mix well, so you might need to really work on the quality control. I'm still looking for an appropriate pump to mix mine- there are a few of them at biodieselgear.com and you might be able to find used ones of those on eBay- and I'm also planning on using a static baffle mixer to help get the initial mix to be very even (www.mcmaster.com has several for sale) Mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, BEN ROBERTS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the advice on the caustic soda Keith now my next question to everyone is Has anyone successfully made a processor from an IBC (1000litre) . Just an idea I've had since they are cheap and readily available with draining taps already fitted. All thoughts welcome. Best regards Ben [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: washing biodiesel in large processor
I can't believe Im resopnding to this when I've got a plane to catch today, but... --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, ardis streeter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi,all ' I was wondering if anyone could tell me which way might be best for washing large batches of biodiesel?? either mistwash or bubblewash works fine for big batches, but the same rules apply as for small batches- more water is needed for misting and less emulsification happens, much less water is needed for bubblewashing but more chance of emulsification can take place. I actually use both now- mist for a few gallons (for a small 42 gallon batch I mist for 4 gallons) and then I bubblewash with good use of water recycling during bubblewashing. In my 350 gallon wash tank, my small aquarium air pump gives fine results, but not all of the air pumps might be able to handle such large batches. it looks like a tiny amount of bubbles are rising but it works really well- less emulsification than the same air pump agitating up a smaller batch. Also was wondering if the [wash] tank needs an agitoror or if the wash tank should be set up with a pump to stir the fuel,water wash?? The only person I've seen advocate this is Todd Swearingen, and it doestn' always work under other people's circumstances (todd does acidbase biodiesel and there's special circumstances that that brings to washing- see below). I did VERY extensive testing with pump-mixed washing- what I was calling an 'emulsifying wash'- last summer, based on Todd's past posts about the 'frog in a blender wash method'. I used hot water, it was hot outside, and I had an easier time washing than with colder weather/water circumstances and it washed better (heated) than the (cold) wash test (ie the jar biodiesel/water shake test) seemed to indicate. I put the hot (100F or 110F) fuel and hot water through a Surplus Center 2-1225 pump. While I didn't see major emulsification because I was working with 1. new oil biodiesel, tested waterless, with 3.5 grams of lye and 20% methanol, which shouldn't make anywhere near as much soap as normal WVO biodiesel and 2. everything was really hot which always prevents emulsification, I still found that it didn't save me any water and that the water haze didnt' clear out of the fuel quickly (I think Todd heats to remove water after washing rather than just settling like homebrewers do). Again- it didn't save me anything on the water usage, which was the objective of this experiment- and the fuel wasn't usable as quickly. IF you wash an acidbase batch you'll see a few odd things happen. It doesn't look exactly like a normal singlestage biodiesel. There are two differences: 1. less soap is formed by the biodiesel process, which of course helps with washing 2. when you neutralise the sulfuric acid with the NaOH (ie when you add your methoxide, it both catalyses a reaction and some of it reacts with sulfuric acid), you form sodium sulfate salt. Salts inhibit washing, essentially. If you wash biodiesel and you add some pulverised salt to the water, you'll find that the water doesn't get as white. This is because it loses it's ability to take on soap as easily. This also means that you dont' form emulsions, but it's important to remember that it's also not removing soap as easily (so you need more water when doing a salted water wash, which you really probably shoudn't do) If you wash acidbase biodiesel there's probably some level of washing inhibition going on due to the sodium or potassium sulfate (a salt) acting as a wash inhibitor, and the results look very much like a salted water wash. yes, it won't emulsify as much, but it should be investigated just what of the three factors (soap, mono and diglycerides, and salt inhibition of emulsification) are at play here. IT's probably different for each batch. I think that pump-agitated washing of biodiesel is pretty overblown . mark Also would like to know if the wash water should be pre-heated because well water is around 55 degrees,would this cause a problem with proper washing.Thanks for any help|| __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *
[biofuel] Washington DC Area Homebrew Class, July 11
Biodiesel Homebrew Comprehensive Class, July 11, 10-6 pm, Pasadena, Maryland (about an hour from Washington DC) an east-coast/west-coast biodiesel teachers collaboration: taught by Rachel Burton and Leif Forer of Piedmont Biofuels (Pittsboro North Carolina) and the Central Carolina Community College Biofuels Program and Jennifer Radtke of Biofuel Oasis and the East Bay Biodiesel Internship (Berkeley California) Maria 'Mark' Alovert of East Bay Biodiesel Internship (Berkeley California) Come to a full-day hands-on seminar on making quality biodiesel, taught by four of the most experienced biodiesel homebrewing instructors in the US. This is a quick-moving, hands-on class, where you will make several small batches of biodiesel, learn safety and basic lab processes, test oil and biodiesel for quality, and work with ethanol and acid-base biodiesel processes. We will also make a fullsize batch of biodiesel in a homebrew reactor, demonstrate washing processes, demonstrate purification of glycerol and it's uses, discuss biodiesel reactors and other biodiesel and methanol recovery equipment, talk about our experiences with solar heating for the process, discuss heat exchangers, safe glycerol/waste oil burners for process heat, biodiesel co-ops and production groups, and more. The workshop is in Pasadena Maryland, about an hour away from Washington DC. To register please send an email with your name to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Class cost: $20-$50 sliding scale, no one turned away for lack of funds. There is an 85-page homebrew text book available at the event for $8. If you wish to, you can order it in advance ($10 includes book and shipping, $14 for orders outside North America): http://www.veggieavenger.com/store/propaganda.shtml Because this is a fast-paced class, we suggest that you also see the following websites for some background material: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel (online course and technical papers section) www.journeytoforever.org (especially the 'how to make biodiesel', 'ethanol biodiesel', and 'processors' pages) www.veggieavenger.com/media (photo archive of homebrew equipment) http:biodiesel.infopop.cc (discussion forum on homebrewing) + Class will be held at Gardner, O'Connor Inc,Ê4433 Mountain Road suite 1, Pasadena, MD (directions below). Class runs from 10 to 6 pm, with an hour lunch. Please bring a brown bag lunch so we can eat together. Please wear closed-toe shoes and long pants and bring a long-sleeve shirt. Bring safety glasses if you have them. For more info about the workshop please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you're lost on the day of the workshop or otherwise need to call the site, the phone number at the warehouse is 410/437-0800- but they can't really answer questions about the class content. Directions: Southbound: -695 (beltway) or 895 tunnel thruway to I97 Southbound -MD 100 East towards Gibson Island (go all the way to the end of 100) -MD 100 merges with Mountain Road eastbound. -Go about ¸ mile: we are on the right just past Wolford's Well Drilling, -4433 Mountain Road, if you see Phelps Liquors or the Exxon station, you have gone too far. Northbound: -I-97 North to MD 100 Eastbound -MD 100 East towards Gibson Island (go all the way to the end of 100) -MD 100 merges with Mountain Road eastbound. -Go about ¸ mile: we are on the right just past Wolford's Well Drilling, -4433 Mountain Road, if you see Phelps Liquors or the Exxon station, you have gone too far. From BWI Airport: -Aviation Blvd to Dorsey Road eastbound -As you turn left on to Dorsey Road, stay in the right lane. -Exit onto I-97 Southbound -Stay in the right lane and exit onto MD 100 East bound -MD 100 East towards Gibson Island (go all the way to the end of 100) -MD 100 merges with Mountain Road eastbound. -Go about ¸ mile: we are on the right just past Wolford's Well Drilling, -4433 Mountain Road, if you see Phelps Liquors or the Exxon station, you have gone too far. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Prefab Possessor
I thibnk that's a great idea. Get started making fuel first, though,
so you thorouoghly understand all the options for processors.
There;s a serious lack of good steel conical bottom tanks available,
and I encourage anyone like you to make them for others.
You're welcome to use the plumbing design from APpleseed or something
similar, and make a product to sell.
Mark
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi all, Another Newbe to all of this. I am a sheet metal journeyman
and
at the shop where I work does a lot of custom stainless steal duct
work
for hospitals and industry that needs it's ability to with stand
corrosive fumes. The many shapes and sizes that we come up with for
these
jobs could be implemented into a processor. If the stainless is not
a
good choice copper or aluminum can be substituted for it although I
would
think that the aluminum might not be a good choice due to the acids
but
since I am not familiar to the stuff used to make BD yet this might
be a
good one to use?? I would like to make one for myself and would
consider
making a few for you good folks out here if any are interested? I
see
that the pre made possessors do not have a good rep. so with your
help
maybe we can change this. I read that a vassal that is tall and
narrow is
better then one that is short and wide. These would be more or less
a
custom item built to a size( height circumference) that the
majority of
you think would be best. This can have a funnel type bottom if that
is
appropriate and have some kind of bulk head type of lid. Any and all
input would be greatly appreciated by me. I am looking for a 40 gal.
to
50 gal. per batch out put for myself but would consider other sizes
as
well. So now is a time for all of you who wish they can find the
correct
shape and size if you could have one made to order. We can weld on
the
hose connections and add stuff like the pre heaters so for those of
you
who have the wisdom for a reasonable state of the art (Back yard)
personal processor please give me your dimensions and locations and
see
if this can work for us. If I can get this down to a reasonable cost
to
make I will draw up the plans and hand them out and you can have a
local
shop make one for you Or maybe I can and have it sent out to you. Is
any
one up to this??? Thanks, {:-) Brian K.
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[biofuel] Re: Two Stage process -- design to add methoxide
read the equipment forum it came from- www.veggieavenger.com/media -there are a few people on there who have posted with photos of their version. I know of about 20 or 25 of these in operation. Mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, linden duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark, I looked at the appleseed reactor. I was impressed. The fact that it is fumeless is an attractive safety factor. Do you know of anyone besides the inventor that has one in operation? Linden girl_mark_fire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Look at the processor plans at: http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html . The APpleseed reactor and many others have the type of pump-mixed system you're describing. The way methoxide is added, is that a second tank (a 5-gallon jerrican in my case) is used, which the methoxide is mixed up in. Then it's plumbed inline with the intake of the pump. When y0u add methoxide, you just open a valve, and hopefully the pump will draw in the methoxide into the oil stream. The other devices for this sort of thing include venturis (which would make this work a little better than the current APpleseed arrangement does) and various agricultural sprayer equipment 'injectors' for adding pesticides to a stream of liquid. I don't have direct experience with these. Venturis and other inline chemcal injection devices are found at the Northern Tool, tractor Supply Company, various local agricultural/ranch/farm supply places, www. surpluscenter.com, and McMaster-Carr (McMaster.com I think). Let us know what you find and how it works for you. Mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Angus Scown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have just started construction of my processer. I have started pretty simply by building a cone bottomed 44 gallon (200 litre) drum. I was thinking of using a pump to do the mixing as it seems very simple to design/install and with clear pipes in sections to monitor the colour. My construction helper (he who welds) and I got talking about the addition of the Methanol , Acid, Methoxide. He got me thinking about some sort of inline 'adder' so I could drip my chosen substance in to the pump mixing lines. This would help me get a good mix. Has anyone else got experience with this type of design. Not knowing too much about pumps etc what sort of device could I look for/make for adding the substance 'mid flow'. Many thanks. Angus -- __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://maroochypermaculture.org.au Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT - Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: an animal fats thing
well, thanks for taking an educated guess anyway, certainly sounds plausible! It's a rumor I'd heard on a list somewhere, for why it is that restaurants bother with the hydrogenated stuff. It's probably out there on google somewhere. By the way, with the high price of soy (hydrogenated frytol type stuff is soy usually), one of my friends found it easy to convince a few restaurants to switch to liquid canola once he started taking their oil because the price isn't so different now. It's a biodieseler's dream- to be able to impact the restaurant's oil buying/handling choices. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, John Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: girl_mark_fire wrote: --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, John Hayes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it true that fast food fryers aso like to use hydrogenated fats because there's a different 'mouthfeel' to foods cooked in them- ie they're crispier or something like htat? Hrmm. I've never heard that before but I *guess* it could be possible. About the only mechanism I can envision would still indirectly be an function of increased stability due to incr snip Of course, the above is all speculation and I could be way off base. John Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: stanadyne pump compatability
to elaborate on that a little (since I own one of these vehicles) Elsbett has recommended not converting vehicles equipped with Stanodyne pumps to SVO. (this came from Aleksander Noack directly, not sure if it's on their website or not) we had a LOT of failures (ie 7 or 8 now?) with these pumps (on Fords and Chevy trucks) in the Bay Area on SVO, none on biodiesel. Of course lots of other people have also run them successfully on SVO, again, no pump failures reported anywhere on biodiesel. It looks like the failures in our area were mostly on vehicles which weren't getting sufficient heating on the WVO side. These folks mostly ran homemade or experimental conversions, and the failures (sized pump) occured quite early in the conversion's life. The several of these cases that I looked into, didn't do adequate temperature monitoring , so it is possible that the temps weren't up to par. In any case it seems a strong case to be extra careful with SVO in these vehicles. One of them seized his pump and then seized the newly rebuilt replacement almost immediately. When he called the rebuild company about it the second time, they asked if he was using biodiesel- they'd apparently gotten a few back from various people already. I imagine that the SVO'ers who were trying to get the company to accept their seized pumps as cores were probably doing what my friends did- and probably weren't quite straight with the co. as to what fuel they were using, and had probably told that company it was biodiesel (since that sounds less bad than hacking into your fuel system, from a fuel injection equipment manufacturers' perspective. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not recommended for SVO/WVO use, fine with biodiesel. Best Keith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Best I can tell the pump in my vehicle is a distributor type Stanadyne pump. If I am wrong on that point, someone please correct me! From what I remember, the fuel injector pump on the 5.7, 6.2 and 6.5 is a Roosa Master. I don't know why distributor type fuel injection pumps would have problems on biodiesel, though I imagine the close tolerances of such a device might cause problems with WVO after it had cooled down. But that would simply entail running biodiesel or standard diesel through the pump for a few moments to clean out the hot WVO before shutting down, would it not? Once, when I was seriously looking at a 6.5 turbo diesel, I contacted Ed Beggs about a SVO conversion for that engine. He told me at the time that he'd had no experience with this family of engines. Since this is Ed's business, I hedged on buying the truck and it sold to someone else. Thanks for any info or especially experiences if anyone is already burning these fuels using a motor and pump similar to mine, thanks again!!! I would also like to know! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?booki d=9782 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: The Economy of Wash Water Recycling
I'm not sure where he's getting the following numbers: If the amount of fuel being washed in the top right row was 1,000 gallons and the water were to be discarded after each wash, there would be 4,000 gallons of waste water Even the resolute non-recycling mistwashers don't report such high water use. Is this a typo? Traditional bubblewashing without water recycling usually requires at most 1 1/3 as much water as you start with . (I have great success with much, much less, some of it through water recycling. My partner's last bach took only about 10 gallons of fresh water for a 40 gallon batch of fuel, via water recycling) Mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Check out Todd Swearingen's great explanation of why it's a good idea to recycle the water when washing biodiesel and how it works. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_wash.html The Economy of Wash Water Recycling Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Epsom Salts and wash water
you can also do a 'soap test' titration to look for soap in the biodiesel, this titration being with hydrochloric acid regent using bromophenol blue as an indicator. I don't have the formula on hand on how to calculate the amount of soap from the titration- I do it for a different purpose and don't do the math- but it would give you a precise idea of how much soap is in your biodiesel sample. I imagine you could do it to the wash water as well. I'll post directions for this titration soon if an actual chemist who knows more about it than me doesn't get around to it first. It';s in an American Oil Chemists SOciety publication on testing of fats and oils. Mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To determine the amount of soap in the wash stream you really have to work your way backwards through the process. 1) Make your biodiesel. 2) Recover your FFAs to determine approximately what percentage of the original volume of oil dropped out as soap in the glycerin cocktail. http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html 3) Wash your fuel, with long settling times so no fuel is lost in the washes, then dry it. Mathematically add the volume of fuel to the volume of recovered FFAs and subtract the sum from the original volume of oil. This will tell you roughly what percentage of oil was converted to the soaps that were suspended in the biodiesel prior to the wash. For example: Presume that you are processing one gallon of soybean oil and that you have a missing volume of 1/2 of 1% after step #3. (That missing volume is approximately what would be in your wash water.) Knowing that the molecular weight of soybean oil is 278.15 grams/mole and that soybean oil weighs 7.68#s per gallon lets you calculate that there are 12.519 moles of soybean oil per gallon. Multiplying the 1/2 of 1% that is missing (in your wash water) by 12.519 moles per gallon gives you ~0.6295 moles of soap in the wash water for that one gallon batch. This means that under perfect conditions you would need ~0.6295 moles of MgSO4 (magnesium sulfate) to replace all the sodium or potassium molecules that had bonded with the FFAs/oil to make the soap that is suspended in the wash water. Multiply 0.6295 by 120.37 grams, the weight of one mole of magnesium sulfate (Epsom salt). This gives you approximately 7.535 grams of Epsom salt needed for every missing one-half percent, per gallon of oil processed. If 1/2 of 1% is missing in a 10 gallon batch, you would need ~75.35 grams of Epsom salts to treat the water. If 1/4 of 1% is missing in a 10 gallon batch, you would need half that amount, etc. You can extrapolate for different sized batches. .. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Can I please get some help ?
I sometimes also get that 'salt' looking thing that Pieter is talking about. Mine falls out at the end of the acid stage if I let it sit for a few days. mark - I can't imagine anything that would separate the NaOH unless you didn't mix it thoroughly in the first place. Acid would separate it from the glycerine by-product cocktail, but it would need more acid to do that than the amount of sulphuric acid specified, which should have been more than neutralised by the methoxide anyway. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Metal can Processor/carboys
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, lovemydiesel2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the info. I have already printed out the Methoxide the easy way from Journey to Forever but still need to study it a bit more but that is also what I had in mind for the methoxide. I will be doing it in the heated garage where I park the Benz. Others use it for car repairs ect.. and the owner isn't too finicky as we are long time tenants and cause no problems to him. Next I got to dig up or make a cabinet/cart to store the tools in when not in use. Apartment living has a few inconveniences, although high overhead isn't one of 'em, Ha! Ok, so I need to find a carboy, do these things go by any other name ? Jerrican, though that's also a name for other kinds of jugs (to confuse matters, carboys are also the name for the large glass beer brewing bottle, which is not what we're talking about here). The carboys look like the plastic cubes that vegetable oil comes to restaurants in, only the carboys also have a lid with some other threads in it that you can attach plumbing of your choice to. girl Mark Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Metal can Processor
I'm currently building a metal beer keg reactor, with the idea that it's a design for a small starter reactor that can later be turned into a methoxide mixer once the owner upgrades to a bigger processor. oh and 'lovemydiesel'- I use HDPE carboys' for methoxide mixing, and use the 'methoxide the easy way' method from journeytoforever as a way to mix the two. KOH is easier to mix than NaOH. anyway, carboys are available from places ike US PLastics (catalog place) and TAP plastics (retail stores) in the US, and you probably have a similar resource where you are. Laundry detergent comes in these carboys sometimes. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Doug Foskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All I can say is do not even contemplate using a Beer keg, which happens to be stainless about the correct size, as that would be stealing. regards Doug On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:28 am, lovemydiesel2003 wrote: Good day; Well, I tried to find one of those metal cans the petro companies use, but here they don't use metal cans anymore, only the heavy plastic variety, but not to worry, where ther is a will there is always a way, and when I woke up I called the brother in law who has a home work shop where he does mechanics for cars/trucks ect... and anyway, he is going to BUILD me a processor using the specs I give him using 1/8 sheet metal with a drain at the bottom, a variable speed motor to work the turbine from the top and it will be an airtight system. Now all I have to do in the materials dept is find a place to get a clear tolerant airtight jug to mix the lye and methanol in. Any ideas ? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: water heater biodiesel reactor
Ive thought about this a lot because sometimes I find solar hot water storage tanks that are 'electric assist', and those always only have an upper heating element only, which is too high up in the tank to stay covered in oil (and would therefore burn out if left exposed- heating elements have to stay submerged). I have thought about turning these tanks upside down because of this problem- but there's another problem or two that comes up if you do that, since you will then have lots of ports on the bottom of the tank and only one on the top. In my case, I just weld in a fitting and add my own heating element, but you bring up very interesting points. In the 'www.veggieavenger.com/media' thread called 'tankenstein', I wrote up a bit about the minimum number of ports needed. You basically need more ports on top than on the bottom because you want a methanol recovery condensor/vent (for use while filling or as a vacuum breaker while draining product) as well as the pump return (which you're proposing to eliminate, which isn't a bad idea but runs into the problem of what is the internal water heater's dip tube made out of: pipe/dip tube you're talking about is made of varying plastics in water heaters, some looks to me like PVC and some looks like some other types of brittle plastic, and might or might not withstand the reaction conditions, so I just automatically take them out since I've seen them look pretty eaten up and disintegrated just from normal use with city water.. To get a good mix you probably want to put the pump outlet into the opposite end of the tank as the inlet, and quality braided reinforced tubing only costs about 60 cents a foot at the US PLastics catalog. In effect, my design uses the tubing at the outlet of the pump, as a sort of mixer tube. It's a bit like a static baffle mixer without the baffles (in fact the next very large reactor tank I build will have a homemade static baffle). The rest of my comments between yours: --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Had been looking at the water heater a few folks have been converting to produce bio diesel. Got me to thinking about all of the plumbing that people are putting around the outside.. made me laugh. Sorry.. to laugh.. but it occurred to me that if one turned the unit upside down.. you would have atleast three ports(inlet, outlet, anode rod) some might even have the pressure relief on the top also, giving four outlets on the bottom to run plumbing out of. Mark: leave the pressure relief to do it's job, especially if as you propose, you don't have any plastic tubing to contend with and it can actually work as planned . One would not need to remove the fill pipe... as it would allow you to just plumb up the pump right there without the added expense of tubing. Not saving much money, just saving some money on valves, which can be significant if you pay normal prices for them, but I pay $4 a valve at Harbor Freight Tools which makes me use lots of them since they give me a lot of flexibility. Again, the water heater dip tube (which you're calling a fill tube) isn't always made of materials compatible with biodiesel. Plus you'd have to make sure the pump inlet and outlet line up exactly with the fittings in the tank you're trying to fit them to, and I would guess that you'd be exchanging cheap tubing for the expense of rigid metal plumbing/unions in trying to fit the pump inlet/outlet with the exact positioning of the holes your tank happens to have. Still leaves two vents for other purposes. One to drain glycerine and one to drain bio diesel. Mark: I do this on other kinds of tanks- it's called a standpipe. Works absolutely GREAT! I strongly recommend it over other kinds of separation systems (like conical bottom tanks). I do this in tanks that are made out of 55 gallon drums- see www.veggieavenger.com/media at the 'sean parks' standpipe wash tank' thread. It's THE ultimate cheap settling/washing tank solution. The one for the bio diesel.. just needs to have a nipple inserted a few inches inside Mark: how are you going to do that? It's have to be a 3/8 diameter (ie very tiny) diameter pipe in order to fit inside the tank's 3/4 fitting- remember, plumbing thread is tapered, which means that you can't make it turn around and thread backwards like you're proposing (I WISH you could!!!). If you can weld, then you're fine because you'd just make a fitting out of a 3/4 piece with the 3/8 piece inserted backwards and welded to it, but if you can weld, then you can more easily customise the tank and not the plumbing (ie just weld in a 3/4 standpipe, or weld in a side fitting at the position higher than the glycerol level). Part of the point of this kind of water heater based reactor is that it lets someone who can't weld, put a simple reactor together in one afternoon. However if you can weld, youve got more
[biofuel] Re: Biodiesel Equipment Building workshop, Santa Cruz, CA, April 10 and 11th
x-charset ISO-8859-1different Santa Cruz than he's speaking of- we have one in California as well! I actually thought about that confusion when I posted my message- that there's a place called Santa Cruz almost everywhere that the Spanish have been. I should have spelled out the CA as California to make it more clear to people outside the US. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I won't be surprised if she's not aware. She's in the US and you're in the Philippines. Don't forget that we're global here. regards, ct =-Original Message- =From: Romy Miranda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] =Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:44 AM =To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com =Subject: Re: [biofuel] Biodiesel Equipment Building workshop, Santa =Cruz, CA, April 10 and 11th = = Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
[biofuel] Re: homebrew education tour in Tucson?
x-charset ISO-8859-1I';m definitely going to go do a tucson class, just haven't decided exactly when. I'm thinking late April or early May. Last time I did a class in Tucson it was several years ago and we somehow got 30 people to attend, so there's definitely interest. Mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 16:26:10 EST, you wrote: Is there enough interest for a Tucson Biodiesel Class out there? Contact Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] My understanding is that it's [EMAIL PROTECTED] The word at is not supposed to be part of her (Mark is a girl in this case) email address. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
[biofuel] Re: Griffin Industries Biodiesel
x-charset ISO-8859-1when our Griffin fuel hit the 40's and crystallised, it kept causing problems for a good chunk of the following day- very resistant to coming back out of 'gel'. however, it was not due to the fuel quality, at least of the shipment we received in our area, which was normal quality. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Alan Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: skillshare wrote: Griffin's fuel is unusable as B100 in most climates in the winter, at least the samples of it that I've seen so far. It forms crystals at 45F, which are big enough to block onboard fuel filters. Even in the San Francisco Bay Area, a very mild climate, it's too gel-prone for our winters. It also resists anti-gel additives. If you had some sort of fuel heater you'd be fine, but it's tough stuff. Localy we've had peopel try and blend it with soy biodiesel at something like a 1/4 griffin to 3/4 soy ratio, which was still somewhat iffy as Bay Area winter fuel. It's been independently tested to be great ASTM quality fuel though- it's just not good wintertime B100. Hmm... That shouldn't really be a problem here in central Florida, but I suppose it is possible. We've had some nights go down into the 40's, but most of the time we've been warmer than that. [checks desktop widget] Right now it's 68F at 2:15 a.m.. AP Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
[biofuel] Re: Griffin Industries Biodiesel
x-charset ISO-8859-1Griffin's fuel is unusable as B100 in most climates in the winter, at least the samples of it that I've seen so far. It forms crystals at 45F, which are big enough to block onboard fuel filters. Even in the San Francisco Bay Area, a very mild climate, it's too gel-prone for our winters. It also resists anti-gel additives. If you had some sort of fuel heater you'd be fine, but it's tough stuff. Localy we've had peopel try and blend it with soy biodiesel at something like a 1/4 griffin to 3/4 soy ratio, which was still somewhat iffy as Bay Area winter fuel. It's been independently tested to be great ASTM quality fuel though- it's just not good wintertime B100. Mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Alan Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone have any experience with biodiesel made by Griffin Industries? One of my trucks is sick, possibly fuel related, and both of them blow big white clouds on startup, and have experienced hard starting since I got my last batch of B100. I've put in a call to Aaron at Ward Oil about it, but I haven't heard back from him yet. AP Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
[biofuel] correction Re: Griffin Industries Biodiesel
x-charset ISO-8859-1It was not Griffin that had the bad batch, it as another supplier (Imperian Western Products). Griffin fuel was fine as far as meeting specifications, it happens to also have a high gel point. Gel point is not on the ASTM specs as a pass-fail number. the gel point thing is just a characteristic of the biodiesel, and it does not indicate that that fuel is off-spec or a bad batch- it indicates that it was high in saturated fats such as animal fat. Mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, craig reece [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alan, I checked with some of our local bioD resellers, and there was at least one bad batch from Griffin. I'd contact Griffin about it - maybe they'll comp you some good fuel for your trouble. Here in N. California, Yokayo Biofuels went the extra mile when they sold some funky bioD, and actually went to the affected vehicles and drained the fuel, replaced with good stuff, and replaced fuel filters. Here's what my friend said: The Griffin fuel had a very high gel point - above 40 degrees Farenheit. Plus, when once it gels, it seems to not ungel until raised to an even higher temperature: 60-70 degrees. Alan Petrillo wrote: Does anyone have any experience with biodiesel made by Griffin Industries? One of my trucks is sick, possibly fuel related, and both of them blow big white clouds on startup, and have experienced hard starting since I got my last batch of B100. I've put in a call to Aaron at Ward Oil about it, but I haven't heard back from him yet. AP Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- -- Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] subject=Unsubscribe * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
[biofuel] Re: Tucson Biofuel
x-charset ISO-8859-1If that group was [EMAIL PROTECTED] (which still turns up at the internet searches once in a while), that was three years ago (it was me and a few people) and is not still in existence. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Brian C. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello. I'm brand new to the biodiesel world. I am currently buying B-20 from a manufacturer in Tucson, but I would like to make my own. Is there anyone, or does anyone know anyone, in Tucson, AZ who would be willing to help in my learning process? Any info and/or contacts would be greatly appreciated. I know there is a group in Tucson making biodiesel from WVO collectively, but the email address I found for them did not work. Thank you, Brian __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
[biofuel] Re: Methoxide mixing
x-charset ISO-8859-1--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Pieter Koole [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I thought that NaOH and methanol should not be mixed too long before use. This is a widespread myth... if you keep it closed tight it's fine keeping methoxide for long periods of time. Just re-stir it somehow if any solids have settled out. Can I mix it 24 hours before I need it ? Or maybe even longer ? If not, why not ? Go right ahead, just make sure it can't evaporate the methanol. mark Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands. (Maasbree, a beautifull little village, to be exact) The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:23 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Methoxide mixing Paul, For most, simple HDPE gallon jugs or HDPE 5 gallon carboys are sufficient, preferably translucent. Prepare the sodium methoxide 12-24 hours in advance and time will do most of the dissolving for you, with perhaps an occasional bit of agitation. KOH dissolves much more readily (a matter of minutes with mild agitation) than NaOH, but perhaps is not as available for some. Doesn't matter if the process you choose is acid/base or straight base. It serves your interests best if you make sure that adequate mixing takes place. Treat neither any differently from the other. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Paul B.Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biodiesel lisst serve biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 10:40 AM Subject: [biofuel] Methoxide mixing Just wondering what other people are using to mix up the lye and methanol with. Seems that I read alot about putting it in a sealed container to avoid fumes... but then how do you mix it up? Just shake it around or do you need to have some sort of sealed mixed in the carboy??! Does that do enough? The Foolproof method notes that ... It's nasty stuff and it's not easy to mix -- and it must be thoroughly mixed before you use it, with all the lye dissolved and goes on to note that you just give it a series of swirls and then let it sit. Is that enough to thoroughly mix it?! Sounds good to me if so as I was planning on having to mix up several small batches in my blender and then pouring them into a container together, sealing that and then having it gravity fed through a tube into the processor. So,... just pour, shake thoroughly, and drain..?!. Also, does the base vs acid process demand more or less thorough mixing? Any thoughts out there? - Paul Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To
Fuelmeister was Re: [biofuel] Filtering biodiesel
x-charset ISO-8859-1Thanks for pointing that washing misinformation out. There's so much bad info on that website. The problem with not washing till the water is clear, is that it's harder to get the biodiesel to go 'clear' as well (if there's still soap left in the biodiesel). Murky biodiesel contains water. Part- washed biodiesel that still contains some soap is also going to retain water. As in, 'free water'- they type you DO NOT want in your fuel system. Unless Im missing something (like a hidden drying stage, and Im not talking about oxidising your fuel with a bubbledry which I hope to god they aren't doing), they're promoting that folks put wet biodiesel into their injection systems. I have NO idea where the 'report' that 'washed biodiesel grows algae' more readily supposedly came from. I've never read such a thing, and I think I've followed a lot of the developments in biodiesel in the last two years. Rudi cornered me at the CBCC and tried to 'give' me some glycol test kits (ie the ones ALeks was talking about in journeytoforever, Rudi's finally found them, cheap. Not clear to me yet if they're in the correct range for the amount of glycerides we're looking for though, so don' t get too excited). He kept saying, you want some test kits? you want some? how aobut for free? (or something like that). I was suggesting that we should do a test with one right there in front of everybody at the conference on that crappy commercial fuel I had. Then when I said 'yes I'd like one' he said, 'then are you going to stop trashing theFUelMeister at biodieselnow.com? I said, no. He then said I didn't know what I was talking about (and then called me 'missy' or young lady or or something equally amusing). hee hee hee. ONe of his arguments for what I supposedly didn't know which had been changed in the last couple of months was that he no longer uses a glycerol-trapping bulkhead tank (one of my big criticisms of his processor in the past). I said, well, sir, you got feedback (ie that past criticism), and you acted on it. It's how their expensive RD worked- they got criticism on the 'net (and I didn't even charge a consultant fee!) and they changed their product to reflect the criticism. Now, if they'd only get the idea that trashing 'normal' processes and misinforming the public wasn't a good business practice, maybe peopel would like their company more as well. The other piece of Rudi's misinformation that really bugs me is the claim that their processor has a filter for 'methoxide' fumes(actualy only the methoxide tank, which actually doesn't fume as much as a warm processor does). There's no such thing as a filter for methanol and most homebrewers know that. So the folks I know who actually looked into buying one of those things were mislead into thinking it was safer than making your own. Fortunately the community set them straight and they've got a great little $150 processor from www.veggieavenger.com/media instead now. Mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Mark Thank for this info, but we're not missing the point. The first response in the thread referred to this archive link: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/28752/ Re: [biofuel] Now here's a nice little joke This focuses on the misinformation and how the process has been bent all out of shape to fit the processor. That's why I asked Chuck if he washed his biodiesel. Yes, always, he says. Next step would have been to ask him whether he follows the washing advice at the Fuelmeister website, quoted in the message linked above: Guess what comes next? (Ta-dah!) - from the FAQ: Why does the FuelMeister? use mist washing rather than the more popular bubble washing method? Mist washing is less likely to disturb the biodiesel which could cause a water/soap/biodiesel emulsion which is VERY difficult to separate. It also takes up much less processor capacity than bubble washing, allowing the full batch to be washed right after glycerine draining. Translation: If you do it our way you can't bubblewash it because it's fraught with monoglycerides and even that little agitation will turn it into mayonnaise. If you do it properly you have to have a separate tank for washing, making the processor do double duty as a washing tank doesn't work well. If you do it properly you have to let it settle after glycerine draining, not wash it straight away, but that would spoil the 24 hours sales pitch. And then: Do I always have to wash my biodiesel, and how much? It depends. Some biodiesel producers have been using unwashed biodiesel for years without apparent problems. Others believe that only ASTM quality biodiesel should be used in your applications. It has recently been reported that highly-washed biodiesel can attract microbial growths (algae) which can foul fuel systems. A pH which is slightly
[biofuel] Fwd: Transesterification Can Be Fun: Biodiesel in LA
x-charset ISO-8859-1--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], pathtofreedom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Transesterification Can Be Fun: Biodiesel in LA by Jennifer Murphy Sunday February 01, 2004 01:56 PM [EMAIL PROTECTED] (posted at: http://la.indymedia.org/news/2004/02/102199.php ) What fuel is clean-burning, renewable, grown in the US, and brewed in back yards across the country? What fuel makes the murder of Iraqi children, the destruction of the arctic wilderness, and global warming obsolete? It's called biodiesel and it's arrived in Los Angeles. Pasadena's urban homestead, Path to Freedom, held a biodiesel Fuel Mixin' Mixer last Friday. Biodiesel is a viable, sustainable alternative to petroleum that can be used to run any diesel engine Did you know that Rudolph Diesel, inventor of the diesel engine in 1895, built it to run on peanut oil? A few weeks ago, Jules Dervaes and his family, owners of Path to Freedom, and Nicole Cousino, George Steinheimer, and Kalib met at the mini-organic farm. Their purpose: to build a biodiesel processor out of an old water heater tank. Biodiesel fuel is made from vegetable oil, methanol and lye. The process is called transesterification . Many biodieselers get their oil for free from restaurants. Four million gallons of fryer grease are thrown out every year in this country. Fast food joints often have to pay to have it taken it away. It is sometimes used to make cattle feed but often ends up in landfills. The Path to Freedom group got their oil from a catering company that buys their organic edible flowers and herbs. When processed from free used grease, bio-diesel ends up costing about .60 per gallon... This weekend Pitzer College in Claremont hosted the California Biodiesel Consumers Conference. The conference, organized by Biofuel Oasis in Berkeley, was planned as a two day intensive in education and brainstorming on issues facing passenger-car biodiesel consumers. They want to lay the groundwork for sustainable and homegrown biodiesel businesses to serve those consumers The Fuel Mixin' Mixer was an opportunity for some of the travelers, here for the conference, to see what is happening in Los Angeles. As the late afternoon turned chilly, Jules' son Jeremy, wearing rubber gloves and safety glasses, mixed the lye and the methanol in a large plastic jug. Jules and his other son Justin, with help from Kalib and Marie Alovert (AKA Girlmark) got the pump working. It sucked the oil from a large plastic drum into the water tank, where it could begin to heat up. The heating allows for better mixing. On a shelf nearby were several small jars of test fuel, in various shades of brown and yellow, some with a thick layer of glycerine . This is a biodegradable by-product of bio-diesel, which can be used to make industrial soap. The water tank processor was designed by Girlmark, who works with the Berkeley Ecology Action Center. The Path to Freedom group modified and improved the design, making it more compact. One of the beauties of this do-it-yourself technology is how open it is to creativity. Once the methanol/lye mixture was made and the oil was warmed up, they were carefully combined. Let the transesterification begin! The processor stirred it slowly for about an hour. The reaction began right away and the biodiesel rose to the top. There are two more steps after this, letting the mixture settle over night, and washing the fuel. To heat 20 gallons of oil takes a couple of hours, so the guests, numbering around fifty, munched on homemade soup and cookies while they waited. Discussion topics included the benefits and disadvantages of straight vegetable oil (SVO), fuel taxes in Britain and the US, intentional communities, and the joy of knitting. Present were members of the Boulder Biodiesel Coop, and Grassolean, another green fuels coop, who drove all the way from Colorado. Others came from the Berkely Biodiesel Coop, in the Bay area, which is, as usual, way ahead of Los Angeles in green technologies. Also present were Tom, of the informative VeggieAvenger website, and Biodiesel Betty, who's dream is that the school buses of the future will run on biodiesel (and maybe even the vegetable oil that is left over in the school cafeterias). There were also many interested friends of Path to Freedom, some of whom knew little about biodiesel until now. By the end there were several more converts to the beauty of home- brewed biodiesel, as well as 20 gallons of lovely golden liquid, suitable for running an old Chevy van or a fancy new Volkswagon Jetta TDI. The same evening, a few exits south on the 110 Freeway, Northeast Neighbors for Peace and Justice screened a double feature on bio- diesel as part of their regular Friday night video/potluck at Flor y Canto. First up was the newly released French Fries to go by Charris Ford of Grassolean, followed by Fat of the Land, produced by Niki Cousino, Sarah Lewison, Julie
[biofuel] Re: A bit on business
x-charset ISO-8859-1--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Paul B.Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more for the night... :) I've heard things from time to time about legal this and not legal that. I tried searching the archives for some hard data but was overwhelmed with my search results. Anybody have any hard data on: ( I live in Vermont if that makes any difference) Which of these are national EPA issues and which are state issues? 1. Taxes... I heard I can sell biodiesel for any off road use (marine as well !!??) and not have to collect sales tax on it.. correct? Not quite correct. You can sell biodiesel for offroad use without registering as a fuel or fuel additives producer with the EPA (which is the process that is now dominated by the NBB). I believe you still need to follow state and federal tax laws. Sales tax is generally something different than 'excise tax' on things such as fuels. 2. For personal consumption I don't need any sort of license to produce it... correct? You need to follow local and federal environmental regulations, which may include: secondary containment (ie something to keep the stuff out of the ground if you have a spill), limitations on the quantities of ingredients and total chemicals (including vegoil and biodiesel) which you have stored on site, having MSDS avaiilable, etc. HOWEVER! most fire marshalls and other local authorities would probably be quite upset if you were making biodiesel, and real-world experience has shown that local authorities' interpretation of the hazards of what you are doing are VERY variable. AND- while these rules are a good idea to follow for your own and others' safety, most peopel just do not let any of their authorities know that they are making small quantities of biodiesel. The IRS does not collect federal excise tax on the first 1600 gallons per year of fuel that you make at home, which makes the majority of us exempt from this federal fuel tax. State authorities however might collect state excise tax on this fuel, or they might not, depending on the state. In California they are all set up to recieve your money (Board of Equalization is the state tax authority in CA) 3. To sell biodiesel, I dont need a license if it's for off road use (needs to be dyed red still though.. yes? - dye with what?).. correct? To sell anything you probably need some sort of license (like business license). However you do not need to register as a producer of fuels or fuel additives with the EPA if you are selling for offroad use. As far as I know, there is no standardization for red dyes and biodiesel yet, as some of the yellow-grease-based fuel is a cranberry red color in it's natural state. 4. The ASTM standards need to be met to be a commercial producer. OK. as in, it's part of registering with the EPA. Then there is no further enforcement of quality as per all the stuff Keith's message just quoted. and there's lots of evidence that there have been a few commercial producers creating offspec fuel and selling it. Can anybody certify then (doubtful) or does it have to be a government body of some sort? I believe it's a laboratory such as Magellan-Midstream/Williams Laboratories in Kansas City (the cheapest lab I've found, the tests run about $500 for the whole round and $89 for 'total and free glycerol' which is the specification most likely to be 'off'). There is no government body who oversees this part of the testing.
[biofuel] Re: A bit on business
x-charset ISO-8859-1Tom, you're definitely reading it wrong, and you've been corrected on this at infopop by Ken Provost. It's 'per quarter', which makes it 1600 gallons per year.. Mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Got to correct one error that has been repeated several times on this list. The IRS exemption is for a total of 400 gallons per year, not 400 per quarter. It makes quite a difference. Tom Leue In a message dated 1/28/04 1:33:27 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Paul B.Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more for the night... :) I've heard things from time to time about legal this and not legal that.I tried searching the archives for some hard data but was overwhelmed with my search results.Anybody have any hard data on:( I live in Vermont if that makes any difference)Which of these are national EPA issues and which are state issues? 1.Taxes...I heard I can sell biodiesel for any off road use (marine as well !!??) and not have to collect sales tax on it.. correct? Not quite correct. You can sell biodiesel for offroad use without registering as a fuel or fuel additives producer with the EPA (which is the process that is now dominated by the NBB). I believe you still need to follow state and federal tax laws. Sales tax is generally something different than 'excise tax' on things such as fuels. 2.For personal consumption I don't need any sort of license to produce it... correct? You need to follow local and federal environmental regulations, which may include: secondary containment (ie something to keep the stuff out of the ground if you have a spill), limitations on the quantities of ingredients and total chemicals (including vegoil and biodiesel) which you have stored on site, having MSDS avaiilable, etc. HOWEVER! most fire marshalls and other local authorities would probably be quite upset if you were making biodiesel, and real-world experience has shown that local authorities' interpretation of the hazards of what youare doing are VERY variable. AND- while these rules are a good idea to follow for your own and others' safety, most peopel just do not let any of their authorities know that they are making small quantities of biodiesel. The IRS does not collect federal excise tax on the first 1600 gallons per year of fuel that you make at home, which makes the majority of us exempt from this federal fuel tax. State authorities however might collect state excise tax on this fuel, or they might not, depending on the state. In California they are all set up to recieve your money (Board of Equalization is the state tax authority in CA) 3.To sell biodiesel, I dont need a license if it's for off road use (needs to be dyed red still though.. yes? - dye with what?).. correct? To sell anything you probably need some sort of license (like business license). However you do not need to register as a producer of fuels or fuel additives with the EPA if you are selling for offroad use. As far as I know, there is no standardization for red dyes and biodiesel yet, as some of the yellow-grease-based fuel is a cranberry red color in it's natural state. 4.The ASTM standards need to be met to be a commercial producer. OK. as in, it's part of registering with the EPA. Then there is no further enforcement of quality as per all the stuff Keith's message just quoted. and there's lots of evidence that there have been a few commercial producers creating offspec fuel and selling it. Can anybody certify then (doubtful) or does it have to be a government body of some sort? I believe it's a laboratory such as Magellan-Midstream/Williams Laboratories in Kansas City (the cheapest lab I've found, the tests run about $500 for the whole round and $89 for 'total and free glycerol' which is the specification most likely to be 'off'). There is no government body who oversees this part of the testing. From what I've read, it seems like big companies can set up their own labs and certify their fuels as they need to, so if I had cash to spend I could buy the testing equipment and do it myself technically ...Correct? Producers run in-house testing for their own 'in-house' feedback on their quality control, but for EPA registration I belive it's usually done through an outside lab. Someone shoud call the NBB for fun and see what their stance on the quality control within their industry is. Ask them how they enforce that the sample submitted for EPA resgistration is actually a representative sample of what the producer will be selling. Ask them how much they ensure that the fuel that their members will sell is actually ASTM D-6751 compliant.
[biofuel] Some lessons from the Bay Area's public B100 pumps
x-charset ISO-8859-1NAFT Gas in Fairfax, CA, just north of SF, just stopped selling biodiesel, which they had been conveniently offering for about 6 months. I thought there were some interesting lessons in the whole story behind this pump- the interaction between the enthusiasts of our growing B100 community, and the industry and existing petroleum outlets. We've had a lot of instability in the B100 availability in the Bay Area, and this- availability instability, and pricing instability, seems to me like the absolute worst thing for the B100 passenger car market. It also really points to the need for local distributors who are dedicated to the customer service angle for B100 consumers rather than trying to sell the stuff via petroleum distributors. This NAFT gas station, and everybody in this area, was directly impacted by the off-spec, non-ASTM -compliant biodiesel fuel sold for months by NBB member Imperial Western Products/Baker Commodities, and the nightmare of bad fuel that all the local distribution businesses suffered as a result, convinced many of us of the need for local production and local control over the production. A year ago Graham Noyes of World Energy was worrying that homebrewers were going to 'ruin the market' for biodiesel. Ironically enough, a legit, commercial, EPA-registered producer did it first. IN the not-so-short version, we (groups of B100 enthusiasts spearheaded by the Marinbiodiesel list, mechanic Coby Smolens, and the former Marin bulk buy coop) lobbied the NAFT gas station owner for a year while he was building his new gas station, petitioning him to carry B100, to carry WVO-based biodiesel, and to carry it from Yokayo specifically. We have quite a developed community here. Yokayo is a distributor/delivery service run by B100 enthusiasts. About a year into this prolonged campaign, there was a brief lull while the gas station renovation was stuck in red tape. Once somebody noticed that work was being done on the gas station again and mentioned it on our local listserve, a couple of other distributors started approaching the gas station owner as well. ONe was Pacific Biodiesel, who was a new biodiesel delivery company and is somewhat affiliated with Western States Oil in San Jose and Biodiesel INdustries in Las Vegas NV. They were on KPFA at one point talking aobut how they'd just 'convinced' the gas station owner to purchase it from them, and were on the local email list advertising the fact that the campaign had finally succeeded and they'd gotten the contract. They were just starting a Yokayo-style distribution service in Santa Cruz at the time (ie outside of the aread served by NAFT). There was a lot of trepidation and uncertainty among the local pundits over whether they'd just stepped in to someone else's territory and taken advantage of work (lobbying and educating the gas station owner) that the locals here did (and Yokayo did), and whether Yokayo would lose all their Marin customers once this gas station opened with someone else's fuel. At some point in this lobbying it was repeatedly mentioned by the Pacific guys that there was a big price reduction from Biodiesel Industries supposedly coming, and also that there was a Biodiesel Industries plant coming to San Jose and that the market was about to change dramatically in this area. They announced the plant at the March 18th biodiesel forum in Santa Rosa for instance. I've been hearing aobut this Biodiesel Industries price reduction for a while now, and it keeps on not materialising. The persistent rumor was that Biodiesel Industries is about to expand their plant and would finally be able to provide fuel to the Bay Area in meaningful quantities, however BI''s primary business seems to be government and military contracts, and the increased producion capacity isn't making it's way into the Bay Area. I later had the impression from some customers that BI's promised price reductions eventually did some damage to the Pacific Biodiesel guys little distribution business/credibility, even though it wasn't their fault that the BI promises didn't materialise. ANyway, it seems to me, and it could be a misperception based on what the gas station owner said in the Marin local media, that there was some sort of promise of 'lower price' made by all these competing distributors- because it seemed that the gas station owner got it into his head around that time, that he'd be able to offer B100 for $2.45 a gallon (diesel was at $2 at the time)- and this was simply not possible with the Imperial Western OR the Biodiesel Industries OR the World Energy B100 pricing at that time. Other bulk distributors in the area include Golden Gate Petroleum, and SF Petroleum . At that point (springtime of last year) the Berkeley Biodiesel Coop got slightly involved and called around and tried to find out pricing , and who the heck was operating
[biofuel] Re: Web space, photo files
x-charset ISO-8859-1The other place to easily upload photos of equipment (especially if you're like me, and rarely get it together to write it up as an actual 'article' to present on a 'real' website) is at www.veggieavenger.com/media . Veggieavenger forum was originally a discussion forum for Northern California biodiesel discussion (and suffered from that 'too many cooks in the kitchen' thing that keith talks about- we already had an existing listserve for northern california biodiesel (burnveggies list) and veggieavenger.com forum didn't quite take off, as a redundant forum). The site owner also devoted a lot of his site to a sort of photo- assisted online diary about all the local activities he participated in (classes on biodiesel, events/presentations we organized locally around biodiesel, work-days that their Sonoma County Biodiesel Coop did, 'tabling' with biodiesel information at festivals, and the alternative fuel vehicle parade during one of the anti-war protests a year ago). It was annoying to try and organize people to send their photos/writeups to him to upload as part of this, so a lot of nice shots or stories that we all had as part of these events never made it up on the website. I called him to talk to him about this after an event we had in November, and he added a photo upload/file upload module to the www.veggieavenger.com/media forum. It's a nice place for folks to discuss equipment (or presumably other things such as local events) with the use of photos to illustrate what they're talking about. It can be viewed without any registration needed. Mark - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 2:51 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Web space Hello, I am enquiring with these two groups to see if anyone would be interested in some free web space to post pictures and links. I have often seen e-mails where people wish to upload pics of their process or their vehicle conversion but it seems that the only place available is Yahoo, which I don't like. What I am considering is about 100mb of web space where I will upload pictures, and web links for the group. This would be free of charge and no pop ups. I would like to have web space to go along with my domain www.wilkinsweb.com but I have not found a worthy cause to buy the hosting. I do feel that offering a place for the group to upload information would be a worthy use of the server space. At the moment my domain points to my fathers website. Any thoughts are welcome. Aidan Journey to Forever serves that purpose Aidan, and where material is not suitable for Journey to Forever it can be uploaded to the list website if members contact me off-list. More than that would be too many cooks I believe. Best Keith Addison List owner Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
[biofuel] Re: A conversation with the NBB- small producers issues
Quote from the NBB's Joe Jobe: I understand you have concerns about the structure of NBB, our health effects access policy, our focus on blend markets, and that NBB does not represent all biodiesel stakeholders. I think that some of those sentiments may not be completely unjustified. (end quote) May I point out again this sentence, may not be completely unjustified. I thought at first that it was a typo. Then in a subsequent letter he repeated it, aknowledged our concerns, and explained his position on why the NBB has such a focus on blends, etc (among other things, his perception that there are limited promotional resources for biodiesel, and so they think that spreading the stuff around over a wider market has higher emissions improvements etc and is a better use of these limited market development resources), to which I'd say if your resources to promote this stuff are limited, then let small commercial producers into the game (ie by allowing access to the health effects data for a lower cost than the current fees structure), and let us promote the markets ourselves, using our own small-scale niche market resources. Just lower the [rather arbitrary] costs for the little guy and then everybody wins. I have been corresponding with a lot of people since this letter and I feel that, with the NBB convention timing (and perhaps our CBCC counter-convention) , we may have gotten hold of the NBB's ear in a significant way- and this is a situation which advocates of B100, should take advantage of while it lasts. Talk to them, they seem to be temporarily listening, this is a sensitive time before their convention. I get the impression that they really haven't thought of some of this stuff before- because their priorities in general are different than those of the small-scale people who want to drive passenger cars on B100. And I get the impression that some people in the industry are completely clueless as to where the bad PR for the industry (and the NBB) comes from. I have no idea whether talking to them right now would make a big difference, and, strategy-wise, perhaps there are some ways that they could take advantage of the input of information (ie greenwashing for member companies) but it's probably worth trying, especially as far as the small producer issue goes (since it's a winnable fight, as opposed to other things that some people dislike about the NBB). Since Joe Jobe was upset that I am hostile to the NBB without having gone to any of their events first, and he kept trying to make a big point about personal communication, I decided to personally communicate to him and whomever he cc's that if they would only lower the membership fees for smaller producers, base them on gallonage perhaps, it would probably generate some good publicity for the organization and would not constitute unfair competition for the big guys since we target different markets than they generally do... One of the other gripes that peopel have about the NBB is that they are out of touch on a national energy policy level. I doubt they have thought much about how blends like B20 or B02 (that's right, a whopping two percent biodiesel and ninety eight percent petroleum diesel) impact the future of diesel technology, given the strength of the anti-diesel lobby in the US, which in our case is a particularly strong presence in California (it was a factor in the SF mayoral election, and there is a group in SF called Dump Diesel which is focusing on public transit and fleets) In California the anti-diesel political sentiment has taken away our new VW TDI's for the next few years (import restrictions on all new passenger car diesels, thanks to the California Air Resources Board until 2007 when ultra low sulfur diesel (ULSD) becomes available here by mandate- even though ULSD IS already available through some gas stations and of course no-sulfur diesel (biodiesel) is available as well). This now impacts CARB States (several other states which model CARB regulations). For instance Maine doesn't have any new tdi's for the next few years either thanks to California and the antidieselists (actually Maine was having a hearing on this issue yesterday, anyone know what happened?) A number of us believe that the industry's focus on calling B20 biodiesel, essentially gives ammunition to the anti-dieselists (see last year's Sierra Club statements against diesel and biodiesel, in which they specifically dismissed biodiesel as a clean air solution by saying biodiesel is actually a blend of some biodiesel and mostly petroleum- implying that it is a false solution to pollution problems associated with petrodiesel or that it is a greenwashed petrodiesel). This impacts fleets and subsequently the biodiesel industry, the opposite of what the NBB should want. This happens in multiple ways, including the availability of moneys for switching fuels and fleet
[biofuel] Re: Plastic oil drum for Simple 5 gallon processor
I made fuel this way, in plastic buckets, for hundreds of gallons and thousands of miles. Just make sure there's a good lid between any sparks from the drill and the bucket full of methanol-containing biodiesel. I heated oil on the stove (kitchen stove or a propane camp stove) in a 5-gallon canning pot (in the US the black enamalled canning kettles are that size or sometimes a bit bigger). It took about 15 minutes to heat oil to 125F, and I agitated that batch for 15 minutes in the bucket while heating the next 5 gallons of oil on the indoor stove. It meant that in a little over one hour of work I could make 15-20 gallons of fuel, enough to wash all at once in a bigger container (at one point I had a 15gallon conical tank from a sandblaster actually) and enough to fill my VW's 15-gallon tank. Considering all the equipment was free, it was a good tradeoff (slightly labor-intensive but equipment-unintensive) that kept me from having to spend anything on a bigger processor for a good year and a half. Then I built a stirred-tank processor out of a drum, a washing machine motor, and some pulleys and bearings- $50. Now I use a $150 water heater -based processor and it's cousin Tankenstein, both of which are detailed at www.veggieavenger.com/media The fires which happened in plastic processors were in our area in Northern California, happened multiple times, and involved a 'ready-made' plastic conical processor design which used a heating element threaded into plastic PVC fitting in the bottom of the cone. If I were to use plastic for a processor I'd definitely at least heat in another container. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello J.D. Can I use a plastic 5 gallon oil drum for theSimple 5 gallon processor on the JTF website? I think Keith had in mind a metal drum, but metal oil drums in that size are few and far between around these parts. Thanks, J.D. Yes, they're metal. Mark also said metal drums are rare in the US, to my surprise, I've always had them everywhere else I've been. She seemed to have used metal buckets, but without the ridge in these drums, and I don't know what she did for a lid. Maybe she'll tell us. Another list member uses wooden lids, with a sheet of plastic underneath, uses silicon to stick split silicon hose round the rim of the processor and holds the lid down with toggle latches fastened with pop rivets. Anyway, it does say: There's no need to follow this prescription exactly -- use what's to hand, improvise. There have been fires reported with plastic processors with heating elements. But I know someone who's been using a home-built plastic processor for a couple of years and never had any trouble. His is more like a big carboy, 10 gallons, two lids. He uses a washing machine pump (laundry machine) and a washing machine heating element, epoxied in place, and fitted a bottom drain the same way. It's simple, it works fine. Go ahead and try. Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Ethanol Deliveries (was Test Batches... )
hell, let's just drive down to LA (on cheap biodiesel) for the conference at the end of the month and pick some up then. Save you a LOT of freight that way. Anyone else in the Bay Area interested in this? mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 1/2/04 9:34 PM, Dave Shaw at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken and James, I wish that we'd got more accomplished with regards to our ethanol deliveries. I'm finally getting a shop space cleared out for my projects, so I'd be willing to go in on a bulk buy... but what I'm really interesetd in is getting that tanker truck rolling north with 2,500 gallons of ethanol Hoo Yeah! . we've got people all over the state waiting to store 500 gallons on their farms for internal combustion use and ethyl esters production. I just hope that he's going to sell the fuel at a reasonable price (is $2.25 too much?) I'm putting together a small buy from Parallel Products as soon as the holidays are over -- four 15 gal. poly drums on a pallette. Price is right around your figure, but the freight is hefty, of course. If anyone wanted experimental quantities in the Bay Area, I could sell a little of it at cost (incl. freight). I emailed David Blume at alcoholcanbeagas cuz someone mentioned they were going to start a fuel ethanol depot in Santa Cruz, but he never responded. Another long shot might be to try to hook up with the oil refineries in North Bay -- they get railcars full of fuel grade EtOH from the Midwest, to blend with gasoline. Last year they didn't know what I was talking about, but now they might. -K Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] 5 gallon processor dip tube idea
Keith, great job on the 5 galon bucket processor. I made hundreds of gallons with something similar because I didn't have a house with a yard- and the buckets all stack in a closet after you're done, or fit in the trunk of a car if they need to be transported. IT's a good system. But I don't like the 'pouring off biodiesel' part. I have gotten serious methanol exposure quite a few times doing this same thing (expecially with warm biodiesel, which is much more fume-exuding than cold). I haven't used a ridged metal pail like is in your photo (I was using smooth sided buckets) - but in the buckets, separating two liquids cleanly is difficult, expecially when working with new oil or nice qualityWVO which give liquid, runny glycerol. I just find myself pouring glycerol into my wash tank sooner or later this way. In my fullsize flat-bottom processors I like to separate the two liquids using a standpipe drain (see www.veggieavenger.com/media' for diagram of a weldless settling tank with a standpipe), or, when I had a transfer pump, using a dip tube connected to the dip tube. I figured out the height to which the glycerol for any given batch generally settles to. It's generally predictably a similar height each time, especially if you work with nice oil. I then built various dip tubes into lids, which were a length that sits the bottom of the dip tube right above the level of the glycerol. My transfer pump (selfpriming pump) attached to the other end of the dip tube. Looking at your design, I think that IF the practice of using positive pressure from an aquarium pump to start a siphon is safe AND if you have a very solid lid seal on the reactor bucket- then the same type of dip tube would work for transferring biodiesel out of the bucket without any pouring or methanol exposure, and you would have less risk of getting any liquid glycerol into your wash tank where it can wreak havoc. I would start with something like a piece of pipe, with a pair of electrical conduit locknuts and a lot of silicone caulk or epoxy as a weldless way to attach the dip tube (pipe) to the lid. This also depends on whether the seal around the propeller shaft is fully sealed so you can pressurise the vessel without sending fumes every which way. mark Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Tankenstein, the ugly reactor
Hi all, I am running a 'thread' on the Veggieavenger biodiesel photo forum about Tankenstein, the monstrously ugly 120-gallon water heater processor I just built. It's not super exciting or very different than my $150 Fumeless designs, but I expect to keep documenting and posting a few experiments with equipment there over the next few months. I've also got some more updates coming to the $150 Fumeless thread. Both are at www.veggieavenger.com/media in the equipment section... www.Veggieavenger.com forum photo section is a pretty amazing new service, but check out the rest of William's site as well, he's got good info in there. The interesting thing about the veggieavenger forum is that you can sign up, then click on a 'watch this topic' button- which means that the next time there's a reply to the topic, you get one email telling you to check your watched topic. THen it shuts up and doesn't bother you with any more email notifications till you've visited the board, logged in, and looked at the topic you're watching again. SO it's a good way to keep up with infrequently-posted-to threads. The Tankenstein thread and the $150Fumeless thread should get updates from me over the next few weeks so I'mn pushing people to use this service. ANd if you've got photos of interesting biodiesel equipment or events, please post them there! mark Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: 5 gallon processor dip tube idea
When it's 105F in the summertime it's plenty hot to get fumes (well not boiling white fumes or anything, but certainly methanol in the air) above the biodiesel in a bucket. I know this because i occasionally get sloppy and have 'dregs' of biodiesel/byproduct sitting around in buckets , and I've done my share of pouring off the biodiesel (and inhaling methanol, therefore ive stopped doing this pouring). It's not a safe practice, goes against the whole point of fumeless processors. Your face is right there as you pour. I try pretty hard to hold my breath and I still have gotten fumed this way. I've just stopped doing this . the issue with glycerol messing up washes Ive done myself plenty. I have a pretty good idea of what causes my washing problems since I do a full round of quality control, and I'm in a position to occasionally mess up and get glycerol into my wash tank. Do try it and tell us what happened. I think it's all the soap in the byproduct that does it, but could be wrong. I've wanted to add some USP glycerol to some unwashed bio and see what happens to prove this theory, but haven't bothered spending the cash on this expensive stuff. also, as far as transfer from buckets- you usually have a 10 or 15 gallon fuel tank on most cars. You don't just make 5 gallons a day to fuel yourself in this case, you make three batches in one relatively quick session and get it over with. Having a good transfer technique would be helpful and I've been stumped on what to recommend for this size for a long time. I my case I used drill pumps (and they'd break every couple of months and I'd buy another $5 one). Oh and in the US they really, really seem to like plastic for everything. SO oil buckets are usually plastic. There are metal pails used for some liquids but they don' t usually have a clamp lid like you're showing. But I think you can get containers such as you used, they're just not very common. mark -- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Jon Van Gerpen's response about EPA concerns
Been talking about this offlist with Jon Van Gerpen of Iowa State University. I sent him my Conversation with the EPA Tome. Here's some more info. I actually had brought up with Jim Caldwell the lowest possible biodiesel viscosity issue as compared with the lower temps of diesel's viscosity- but didn't get far with it. In fact the more I think about it, the more bothered I am about the problem of 'biodiesel doesn't meet diesel specs'. Of course it doesn't, but it works fine just the same, and the faster this comparison stops being made, the faster we stop having problems such as the California CDFA issue (please search the archives here), where oil company representatives successfully lobbied to have B100 'must meet petrodiesel specs' in California- effectively outlawing it since it can't- though how much that's enforced we haven't seen yet. Quote from Jon Van Gerpen: Mark: Jim Caldwell is the person at EPA that I contacted through email. It sounds like you got more from him than I could. This is the first time that I have heard that their concern was viscosity. In the past, I have heard that they were concerned about the distillation points. snip There is some slight justification for being concerned about viscosity. The fuel injection system on a diesel engine will inject more fuel if the fuel has a higher viscosity (due to less internal leakage in the pump). We have measured this effect when comparing diesel fuel and biodiesel. However, since biodiesel has a lower energy content, the effect is such that the engine still produces less power and operates at a lower overall fuel-to-air ratio with biodiesel than with diesel fuel. You might be familiar with this issue in the context of maximum engine power. Since biodiesel has about 8% less energy per unit of volume, we would expect about 8% less maximum power from the engine. However, reported results are usually in the 6-8% range. This slight discrepancy is due to viscosity. The viscosity of soybean-based biodiesel varies from 4-12 cSt over the temperature range from 40 deg C to 0 deg C. Since the biodiesel solidifies at about 0 deg C, the value of 12 is the lowest viscosity we would expect to see for this feedstock. Grease-based biodiesels can be higher but I don't have any low temperature viscosity data for them. They also will not go to as low of a temperature before gelling. Regular diesel fuel will have a viscosity of 12 cSt at about -13 deg C. Since this is within the normal operating range for the engine, I see no reason to expect deleterious effects from the higher viscosity of biodiesel. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] methanol source in arizona Re: New to Bio-Diesel, Need Methanol
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Boston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm looking for a place to buy methanol online? I found one place, I usually look in the phone book for wholesale gas distributors and for hot rod/performance places- sometimes racecar engine builders will order a drum or a pail for you, and sometimes you can just find an oil dealer who stocks it. I live in Phoenix, AZ and have only found 2 places that carry Bio and it's a bit expensive, like 3$/gallon Maybe someone on BioFuel Group knows a good place in AZ to buy Methanol? I used to buy methanol in Tucson at Don's Hot Rod Shop . It was $3 per gallon and they dispensed it into my own gas cans, so I didn't have to buy more than I used at one time. I'm sure you can find a local source. Maybe if you call Don's they';ll be able to tell you who their distributor is or tell you where to look in Phoenix? For really tiny test batches just buy the Heet or Pyroil brand of gas line antifreeze at the auto parts store (not Iso-Heet). It's 99% methanol and each bottle makes about 1 1/2 little liter batches, great for starting out. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] whoops, Correction!!! my bad Re: methanol recovery
Whoops, I screwed up my post to Todd about reverse reaction, and it's super confusing as a result. I said: Reverse reaction: I'm talking about Neutral from the infopop forum and others who have had glycerol completely disappear under the following conditions: Neutral was running methanol recovery experiment using a heated lab stirrer (stirred hot plate). He left it running for a few hours and came back to no methanol. and of course I instead meant: he came back to no glycerol ANd, furthermore, I didn't clarify that he was doing methanol recovery on both the glycerol and the biodiesel at once, not just on the biodiesel Sorry! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation
this is before I worked with the hot water heaters.I't's a drum-based tank (110 gallons, two drums welded together) , identical to previous partly-sealed processors of mine but more tightly sealed. I didn't say aeration either. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maria, You might care to consider whether or not it's calcium and other residue in the lining of the hot H20 tank that you've converted to a processor that is lending to your cloud problem. Doubtful that aereation from the pump, of and by itself, is lending to the cloudiness. Todd Swearingen Me: this was biodiesel made from new oil, Todd- dry, new oil, with the right amount of methanol and lye added. My problem isn't soap alone. It's glycerol suspension somehow in this processor of mine (which I think is a complex problem which can also be caused by conversion, by soap, and by overagitation or by the type of agitiation. This processor I've got also differs from all the others I've ever used by the type of pump I'm using. SO for me two factors changed in the beginning of the spring when the cloudiness problem happened- closed processor, and new type of pump). The cloudiness is also very stubborn- it wont go away within three days of glycerol settling or anything. Waiting more than three days before washing isn't something I should have to do for a good wash, in my experience. THough in general the longer you wait the easier the washing process of course. I should have been having an easier time washing biodiesel made from new oil than I was, and I shouldn't have had so much glycerol hanging out in the biodiesel to begin with, in my past experience. If you want to identify and put to rest any questions about this 'back cracking' thing, use a soap test using bromophenol blue indicator and hydrochloric acid in a titration- it can tell you very precicely how much soap is made under what conditions. It's one of the more precise and easy tests we have . mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maria, You might care to reconsider the use of heated water or adding water to heated fuel when washing. The heat lends to emulsion formation more readily than water at ambient temperatures. While this is not so problematic with relatively clean parent stock, it can prove to be very ugly with feedstocks that titrate higher and are processed only with straight base (greater presence of soap). Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation
this is before I worked with the hot water heaters.I't's a drum-based tank (110 gallons, two drums welded together) , identical to previous partly-sealed processors of mine but more tightly sealed. I didn't say aeration either. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maria, You might care to consider whether or not it's calcium and other residue in the lining of the hot H20 tank that you've converted to a processor that is lending to your cloud problem. Doubtful that aereation from the pump, of and by itself, is lending to the cloudiness. Todd Swearingen Me: this was biodiesel made from new oil, Todd- dry, new oil, with the right amount of methanol and lye added. My problem isn't soap alone. It's glycerol suspension somehow in this processor of mine (which I think is a complex problem which can also be caused by conversion, by soap, and by overagitation or by the type of agitiation. This processor I've got also differs from all the others I've ever used by the type of pump I'm using. SO for me two factors changed in the beginning of the spring when the cloudiness problem happened- closed processor, and new type of pump). The cloudiness is also very stubborn- it wont go away within three days of glycerol settling or anything. Waiting more than three days before washing isn't something I should have to do for a good wash, in my experience. THough in general the longer you wait the easier the washing process of course. I should have been having an easier time washing biodiesel made from new oil than I was, and I shouldn't have had so much glycerol hanging out in the biodiesel to begin with, in my past experience. If you want to identify and put to rest any questions about this 'back cracking' thing, use a soap test using bromophenol blue indicator and hydrochloric acid in a titration- it can tell you very precicely how much soap is made under what conditions. It's one of the more precise and easy tests we have . mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maria, You might care to reconsider the use of heated water or adding water to heated fuel when washing. The heat lends to emulsion formation more readily than water at ambient temperatures. While this is not so problematic with relatively clean parent stock, it can prove to be very ugly with feedstocks that titrate higher and are processed only with straight base (greater presence of soap). Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] I called the EPA today- Jim Caldwell's explanation
I called Jim Caldwell at the EPA today to talk about the classification of biodiesel within the EPA registration process (ie whether it's classified as non-baseline or atypical), and to ask about the possible small business producer exemptions for Tier I/Tier II testing for EPA registration if it is classified as nonbaseline. He was very helpful and said that he gets a number of these calls and also that he had discussed the small producer issue with Joe Jobe of the NBB the previous week. The issue is this: onroad fuels are classified as baseline, non-baseline, or atypical by the EPA, and the EPA requires commercial producers to carry out various testing to prove health effects and emissions safety prior to being registered as a manufacturer of a fuel or fuel additive. Depending on the classification, there might be small business exemptions to some of the testing requirements. The cost of this testing or the alternative- joining the National Biodiesel Board for access to their EPA testing data, effectively bars smaller producers from being able to go into business making biodiesel for on-road use. This testing is very expensive- Tier I (literature review, and emissions testing) can cost up to $300,000 and Tier II (animal tests) can cost several million dollars. The National Biodiesel Board is the only entity that has carried out both of these rounds of testing as per the EPA requirements. Today, legally producing biodiesel for onroad use requires either spending several million dollars and several years to conduct a round of these tests, or joining the NBB for access to their data, (paying a $5,000 per year fee to the NBB, plus a production tax to the NBB for every gallon sold (or giving the NBB $100,000 as a non-member and hoping that they'll give it back to you by 2015 which they might not. In this way the NBB hopes to get back the money it spent on the Tier I and Tier II testing and the EPA supports them in this). There is a small business exemption from both Tier I/Tier II testing for just one of the categories, non-baseline. There is a different exemption for Tier II for smaller producers of the atypical category as well, although the slightly cheaper Tier I is still required. There are different definitions of `small producer' for the non-baseline exemption and the atypical exemption. IN the case of biodiesel, there has been some question over whether this fuel fits into the non-baseline category, or the atypical category (baseline category is essentially petroleum-specific). If it fits into the non-baseline category, small producers could be exempt from the burdensome cost of Tier I/Tier II testing or from the costs of joining the National Biodiesel Board, the only current alternative to conducting their own testing. It appears that biodiesel was originally intended to fall under the non-baseline category (from prior language in EPA documents). (Non-baseline describes a diesel fuel made containing more than 1% oxygen, which can be made from non-petroleum sources, contains nothing other than carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, sulfur, nitrogen, and contains less than .05% sulfur by weight. Biodiesel fits all of these criteria.) Unfortunately for biodiesel, the non-baseline classification also requires the fuel to conform to the PETROLEUM diesel standard, D-975-93. The properties of biodiesel fall outside of the D-975 standard in a few areas: the 90% distillation temperature (basically a spec to describe different grades of petrodiesel, irrelevant to biodiesel's operability in an engine or the emissions resulting), and viscosity. Anything not meeting baseline or non-baseline specifications, including the not meeting the D-975 standard for petrodiesel which biodiesel can not do, falls under another category, atypical. Jim Caldwell told me today that the reason why the EPA is now sticking to atypical categorisation of biodiesel, is due to the viscosity issue. Basically (my interpretation) they want testing to `prove' that the viscosity or other non-D-975 properties of biodiesel will not cause performance which leads to harmful emissions- they know all about how petrodiesel combusts when it has the D-975 properties, but they don't have the data to `prove' that biodiesel will behave the same way with a lower viscosity (and the fact that the NBB proved it to them is considered a sort of intellectual property of the NBB, so we can's just point to the NBB data without paying the NBB for use of the data). He said that in the early days of the writing of the regulations they (he?) were unaware of the viscosity distinctions between D-975 petrodiesel and biodiesel, and were willing to locate biodiesel in the non-baseline category, but more recently, since they have become aware of the viscosity differences, they believe it belongs in the atypical category because they have to take the most conservative approach in
[biofuel] Jeezus Todd Re: methanol recovery before separation
You still weren't listening to what I said (in your hurry to disprove it because I mentioned the awful, terrible name of 'infopop biodiesel forum'. I don' t always agree with what Neutral reports (or anyone else on any forum for that matter, you, me, ken,keith, whomever, we all get confused by things and we all have agendas to prove or disprove a favorite technique) - but he's not the only place I mentioned this reverse reaction info comes from. (and you ignored the patents part. Over on infopop 'they're' not exactly yakking it up about this issue - yes, it s not common, nor are the agitated conditions for it to occur common, so it's not surprising that you and I haven't seen it ourselves. If you'd like more information from actual real people who've worked on this problem rather than me relating to you some internet anecdote that hasn't happened to me personally, please call Jon Van Gerpen at Iowa State University- he's been recently investigating this exact reverse reaction phenomenon in regards to methanol recovery prior to separation in continuous process plants (and no it;'s not a common problem, and yes, their school has a GC so theres little guesswork involved in the research). His phone number is all over the www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel webpage. Really! you can do it). now back to homebrewing: I explained quite clearly that my cloudiness (and wash problem) was due to glycerine suspended which hadn't previously been happening, which I assume has something to do with not evaporating any methanol off, like my not-quite-sealed unit may have been doing. Not rocket science. Im actually curious if anyone ever gets perfectly clear unwashed fuel with just a couple of days of settling in a sealed processor, or if that clarity is just a relic of open-top units. The processor in question has a biodiesel drain that uses a standpipe , and I drain out the little bit of glycerol that collects in the standpipe first, so there's not an issue of contamination by bottom-draining (I think Todd's been rightly worried about this potential problem before). ANyway the whole issue for me is that separation is sometimes a problem even for homebrewers (the industry literature is full of anxiety about good separation, which homebrewers don't worry about, because time does the trick for us since we don't have to worry about fast throughput). and of course methanol recovery would help that. I also think based on my experience with heated washing that you're just being stubborn and are knocking it from the safety of your own armchair. If you had tried it, you'd see that no, biodiesel and water, oil and water, whatever your'e washing, all separate much quicker with a heated wash, and you just about can't get emulsion with a heated bubblewash. Come on, you can try it- even before furiously writing anything- just go to the lab, pick up a sample of unwashed fuel, and do a wash test on it, heated (put the jar into a water bath with a lid on the jar so the methanol doesn't evaporate) against a cold control of the same exact fuel. It'll make a difference, I promise you. Now the issue is not whether it's worth the BTU''s- that's not what you said- you were just promising that it'd cause worse emulsion problems and I can basically promise anybody that it's going to be the opposite- based on experience in my case. By the way I had a weird accident this summer where I accidentaly left some bubblewashing fuel on a timer with the heat also on a timer for a week. It wasn't great fuel and it was on it's first wash- prime candidate for emulsification due to overagitation. The heat timer would go on every day and a couple of hours later the bubbler would kick on bubbling for a couple of hours. The temperature was probably 110F by the time the bubbling started. Now this was a terrible waste of heat and electricity!!! and was an accident- but it had an interesting result. The fuel not only didn't emulsify, but it was 'done washing' at the end of the week, with no wash water changes (that's a pretty good balance of biodiesel to water). What I was using as a criteria for 'done washing' was the fact that it cleared it's water haze at room temperature within a few hours of being turned off ( I check for water haze by cooling a sample in the freezer in the summer). Mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maria, Pumps tend to aereate when the return is not below the fluid line. Splashing, agitation, aereationalmost all the same kettle of phish. Still, it shouldn't matter one whit when it comes to clarity, as even the most micro of bubbles should come out of solution rather quickly. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maria, You might care to reconsider the use of heated water or adding water to heated fuel when washing. The heat lends to emulsion
[biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation
I asked you what you based this information on, not asking you to just repeat it as fact. How do you know this? It contradicts some others' findings I believe. mark -- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That portion of the reaction is in all practicality uni-directional. The energy required to attach a MeOH molecule to the fatty acid is considerably less than the energy required to re-attach the glycerol. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: skillshare [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 12:06 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation I'd like to know what you base this statement on. mark -- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once the glycerol is cleaved it is out of the picture. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation
My understanding, and I've been told it's in the patent literature somewhere, is that the reverse reaction is slow. But you can actually get it to happen on a liter scale if you work at it hard enough, and homebrewers have talked about this elsewhere. The fact that it is slow is used to producers' advantage according to the patent and current practices of some plant technologies (such as Oregon Biofuels) I believe. You allegedly can get the methanol out of the mixture before the reverse reaction causes much damage. I think the ISU folks have been studying this issue and how fast this occurs, this year sometime. Removing methanol prior to separation has a lot of benefits for commercial producers and for folks trying to get a fast through-put. In the case of homebrewers it;s kind of insignificant because we just let the glycerol settle well by using our favorite tricks, gravity and time. I was really concerned about this stuff this summer because the methanol can keep some glycerol suspended in the biodiesel fraction- and I was having unexpected problems with washing as a result of this. The commercial folks are sometimes concerned with 'separation' issues (separation of glycerol from the biodiesel) and I thought it was important enough to start writing up my bad experience with separation on a homebrew scale for the lists (and I did a class segment in our internship called 'separation anxiety' about this), it seemed to be root of a lot of trouble for me. Basically, when I went from a partially-closed system to a completely fumeless system, I stopped being able to make clear looking biodiesel (prior to washing). I also was not satisfied with some of the washing results I was getting (ie some emulsification) despite having good fuel (in various tests) after washing and despite using various feedstocks with many quality factors accounted for. I was trying to decide what the cause of the wash problem was. Now, I don' t think clarity of unwashed fuel matters all that much or indicates much- but I DID want to know what the cloudiness was and if my washing problems were connected to it. If I poured out a sample of this cloudy unwashed stuff into a wide-bottom pan, the next night I'd have very clear unwashed BD with a very thin layer of glycerol under it, which didn't happen to a closed jar of the same material (which stayed cloudy at the same temperatures). If I set some of it into an open top drum outdoors (I don' t recommend this for practice, it was just an experiment) and some into a correspnding closed-head drum, I had a definite difference in washing the two half-batches with the slightly evaporated one doing better than the cloudy closed-drum one. ANyway I never did figure out if my glycerol separation problem was due to me overagitating the batch (something you don' t hear about from homebrewers but which I've heard the commercial guys talk about as problematic in glycerol separation) or due to my change to a fumeless processor, but it's related to the methanol holding the glycerol suspended in the BD layer (and the glycerol holds soap, or something like that). I was trying to wash biodiesel relatively quickly after processing, in order to to be able to use the remaining heat from the processor to help washing, and I couldn't get around the obvious settling issues. But I think that commercial producers can wash within an hour or so of reaction. I was trying to figure out how they do it- which I think is partly methanol recovery allowing residual glycerol to drop out, partly the washing processes they do (hot water, and lots of it, and acidulating the wash), partly any use of settling aids such as centrifuges and hydrocyclones (?), and partly quality control. anyway the question of reverse reaction and how fast does it happen is probably pretty important to commercial production- removing methanol before separation helps give better separation- but it's not very important to homebrewers who have time and gravity on their side. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lagonisa, The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, The reaction is not exactly reversible. Reversability would require the three glycerides and the glycerol recombining. That doesn't happen. Once the glycerol is cleaved it is out of the picture. You're suggesting MeOH recovery at the point where the reaction is complete and the glycerol has yet to settle out. However, that's not altogether adisable due to the continual mixing of excess catalyst with the methyl ester. If you reduce the volume of alcohol via evaporation at this point there would be a propensity for some of the ester to fracture (back crack) into FFAs and then convert to soap. Mind you that back cracking can only occur up to the point that all the catalyst is consumed in soap making.
[biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation
I thought that the problem with excess methanol is that it's an atmospheric pollutant- that when we compost glycerol or somehow treat or release any wash water that contains volatile methanol, the methanol evaporates into the atmosphere and does some sort of damage there. I think someone mentioned very recently on this list that the EPA would prosecute homebrewers due to the methanol discharge into the atmosphere (but can't afford to). mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi again Todd As far as the wash-water's concerned, water hyacinths quite happily eat the first-wash water, methanol and all, clean it up nicely. Well, actually it's a mix of water hyacinths and two types of duckweed, about both of which there's much good information to be found at JtF: http://journeytoforever.org/edu_pond.html#duckweed http://journeytoforever.org/edu_pond.html#waterhyacinth The washwater is innocuous enough, apart from the methanol - no heavy metals or toxins, for instance, so the plants themselves remain usable. Both make excellent compost, and that's a satisfactory solution - not as satisfactory as reusing the excess methanol, but you are recycling it well. Aslo the plants break the stuff down, they're not full of methanol and lye, and still make good livestock feed. Best Keith Maud, I wouldn't consider the MeOH content in the biodiesel to be negligible. Not at all. Unfortunately, many others consider it so. Simplest method to determine the volume of MeOH that resides in the biodiesel and glycerol, as well as the volume that was consumed in reaction, is to measure the volumes of alcohol laden biodiesel and glycerol, evaporate the MeOH and then measure the remaining volumes of each. The easiest way, IMNSHO, to determine if the MeOH volume in the biodiesel fraction is negligible is to stick one's nose over a container and huff it. (Not advised, but the point being made should be easy enough to decipher.) Without removing the alcohol you've got a fluid that has a flashpoint essentially the same as methanol, rather than the rather safe flashpoint of biodiesel. To test that theory, take a piece of cotton wick, anchor it in a 6 ounce metal tomato paste can as if you're going to make a candle. Fill the can with MeOH laden biodiesel. Light the wick as if the can were an oil candle. Sit back and watch. Everything goes fine for a bit, that is until the fuel heats up to the boiling point of alcohol. Then you have a runaway alcohol torch. That's the same alochol that would normally get washed down someone's drain or flushed out into the back forty. The same stuff that a lot of people consider insignificant. We haven't yet taken any time to quantify the average volume of MeOH that remains in the biodiesel. But it is a safe bet that the ratio is consistent between the biodiesel and glycerol fractions no matter how much alcohol is originally used. The more alcohol used in the reaction, the more alcohol will remain in the biodiesel and end up in the wastewater stream if evaporation is not conducted prior. Most people have probably noticed that MeOH and biodiesel are completely miscible in each other in any volume. If a person is worried about the energy inputs required to recover the alcohol from the biodiesel, then they should be looking at insulation, heat recovery and renewable fuels for the energy inputs. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Maud Essen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] methanol recovery before separation Todd, is the amount of methanol remaining in the methyl ester considered negligible? Is it possible to determine what percentage remains in the methyl ester and what percentage in the glycerol? Maud Lagonisa, The problem is that I have also read that due to the reversibility of the reaction, The reaction is not exactly reversible. Reversability would require the three glycerides and the glycerol recombining. That doesn't happen. Once the glycerol is cleaved it is out of the picture. You're suggesting MeOH recovery at the point where the reaction is complete and the glycerol has yet to settle out. However, that's not altogether adisable due to the continual mixing of excess catalyst with the methyl ester. If you reduce the volume of alcohol via evaporation at this point there would be a propensity for some of the ester to fracture (back crack) into FFAs and then convert to soap. Mind you that back cracking can only occur up to the point that all the catalyst is consumed in soap making. If you can monitor the reaction and insure that the balance of catalyst is infintesimally small beyond what is required to guarantee 100% completion, erego yielding but a small and
[biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation
You are extemely wrong when you say that heat causes more problems with emulsion (in fact you've told me yourself offlist that you heated emulsions to break them, similar principle here) . It's very much the other way around. Try it for yourself with some test batches at different temperatures. You almost can't get emulsion with hot washes. I was describing some experiments where I was unhappy with the results of some of my washes, but they were still miles away from the results one gets with unheated wash water. The temperatures I'm talking aobut are in the 100F range, which all summer long was pretty easy to achieve in 95degree summer weather. Reverse reaction: I'm talking about Neutral from the infopop forum and others who have had glycerol completely disappear under the following conditions: Neutral was running methanol recovery experiment using a heated lab stirrer (stirred hot plate). He left it running for a few hours and came back to no methanol. I harrassed a commercial biodiesel equipment vendor (whose process uses methanol recovery before separation of the glycerol for the same reasons I mentioned) about this topic, and asked Jon Van Gerpen about it, and they both said that 'stirred' was part of the problem- stirred, hot, in the presence of catalyst, and with the methanol evaporating off- are conditions for reverse reaction. In real life the ;'stirred' part would be if youwere pumping this stuff around to achieve multiple passes through a flash evaporator or some other continuous process application involving pumps. A pot still wouldn't have agitation happening usually. But as you point out, it's less likely to happen than the same reaction in the forward direction. Reverse reaction is also an equilibrium reaction- for the reverse reaction the methanol is apparently the limiting factor, just as the glycerol is the limiting factor in how far conversion proceeds in the forward direction. quoting Todd: To reduce washing problems as a result of still suspended glycerin/soap/alcohol (high titration feedstocks), you might let the initial settling take place, even if it means letting the batch cool considerably, then conduct an evaporation step to remove the alcohol, allowing a second settling period prior to the wash. Me: this was biodiesel made from new oil, Todd- dry, new oil, with the right amount of methanol and lye added. My problem isn't soap alone. It's glycerol suspension somehow in this processor of mine (which I think is a complex problem which can also be caused by conversion, by soap, and by overagitation or by the type of agitiation. This processor I've got also differs from all the others I've ever used by the type of pump I'm using. SO for me two factors changed in the beginning of the spring when the cloudiness problem happened- closed processor, and new type of pump). The cloudiness is also very stubborn- it wont go away within three days of glycerol settling or anything. Waiting more than three days before washing isn't something I should have to do for a good wash, in my experience. THough in general the longer you wait the easier the washing process of course. I should have been having an easier time washing biodiesel made from new oil than I was, and I shouldn't have had so much glycerol hanging out in the biodiesel to begin with, in my past experience. If you want to identify and put to rest any questions about this 'back cracking' thing, use a soap test using bromophenol blue indicator and hydrochloric acid in a titration- it can tell you very precicely how much soap is made under what conditions. It's one of the more precise and easy tests we have . mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maria, You might care to reconsider the use of heated water or adding water to heated fuel when washing. The heat lends to emulsion formation more readily than water at ambient temperatures. While this is not so problematic with relatively clean parent stock, it can prove to be very ugly with feedstocks that titrate higher and are processed only with straight base (greater presence of soap). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] bad news about EPA registration Re: Commercial production
Hi Keith and others, I've got more info about the EPA registration issue and it's not good. I sent the info that Keith compiled ( http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/27488/ ) to Jon Van Gerpen of Iowa State University who then contacted the EPA about the discrepancy in their registration process (I'm not sure who exactly he spoke with). I didn't get full details yet from Dr Van Gerpen (especially the question of whom it was that he spoke with, but Ill try and find out next week) , but here's what he wrote to me: Quote: Regarding my email exchange with EPA. It was pretty much a bust. I explained to them my understanding of the registration process and then asked them for the rationale they use to categorize biodiesel as an atypical fuel. In the response I received, they confirmed that my understanding of the process was correct but ignored my request for the rationale. I can't fault them too much for not being responsive. We're all busy. However, I still think there is no sound technical basis for not including biodiesel as a non-baseline fuel. This would allow it to qualify for the small business exemptions. I think the most likely path to getting this would be to find a friendly senator who might be willing to push the EPA to loosen up. (end quote) We have been organising here this fall in Northern California to talk about forming a statewide B100 consumers' association, as a sort of partnership with the several small biodiesel distributors, 'small business users' (ie people like Thanksgiving Coffee who run a few vehicles on B100 but aren't considered a fleet in the traditional sense), and passenger car biodiesel consumers- underserved markets, and ones hard-hit by IWP's quality problems this fall. The first item on the agenda besides 'how to greet the industry when it comes here for it's winter convention' is 'how to do a legal challenge to the EPA registration rules so we can have legal local production'. I agree with Dr Van Gerpen's suggestion about finding a politician to take it up, but we're still in the beginning stages of debating strategy on this in our area, and more importantly trying to raise awareness about this issue locally. More info coming shortly. . I think a legal challenge would have to hinge partly on a re-definition of 'small producer'. Currently the small business exemption for non-baseline fuel is for operators making less than 50 million dollars a year. That would leave the NBB high and dry, as no one is making that much from biodiesel production in the US. My personal proposal for redefining 'small producer' is someone making a half million gallons a year or less. This is considered pilot plant scale for the industry- but it's a reasonable scale for local sourcing and production. I think it'd be less threatening to the industry than demanding the current non-baseline registration rules, which would exempt everyone in the industry big and small from the Tier 1/Tier 2 testing, if followed to the letter. Also another heads-up: someone whom I know in the NBB contacted me about their winter convention- they're having a 'small producer panel' discussion in the convention. They're trying to get Jim Caldwell to be one of the speakers,and didn't know yet who the others would be. My acquaintance in the NBB read the official statement about the panel to me- and it said something like 'while we recognise that small producers have a role to play in the development of the biodiesel market (which I read rather cynically!), but [I paraphrase here cause I can't remember the actual language] the issues of quality need to be addressed' or something like that. Now this was amusing to me to hear. We've had serious problems with bad quality substandard non-spec biodiesel coming out of NBB member Imperial Western Products' plant this summer and fall, with drivers having big repair bills as a result, but the NBB has no clue that this is happening and still believes that small producers would have quality control problems. I asked my acquaintance in the NBB if he had any idea about this issue and of course no one had told them. As usual the NBB is somewhat out of touch on B100 issues. Amusingly, the next thing scheduled on the NBB convention agenda right after the small producer discussion is suposed to be a tour of the IWP plant. I realy think they all have no idea that this sort of thing has been happening. Remember it also happened with World Energy this spring, causing some consumers to question 'yellow grease'-sourced B100 after THEIR repair bills occurred. ALso remember that those who cught the problem were basically watchdog grassroots people- if no one was watching, or everyone was getting their B100 from a regular gas station, it would have taken a lot longer to figure out that there was a problem. By the way my reading of the above NBB statement is that the NBB lumps
[biofuel] Re: methanol recovery before separation
I'd like to know what you base this statement on. mark -- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once the glycerol is cleaved it is out of the picture. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: EPA registration
hi edward, The vegoil issue has been addressed here in the recent past. I think if you search for 'detrick' you will get to the post about SVO and the EPA. the biodiesel registratin issue is completely different, though, as the EPA knows that they're very different fuels. Fuel tax- search here for death and taxes' for some info aobut federal excise tax (or an exemption to it) for small users of svo or homebrew biodiesel. the state of California still wants their 18 cents a gallon regardles of what you use and the department in charge of collecting it is called the Board of Equalization I think. take care, mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Edward Mendoza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark, do you know how the new EPA registration might affect running a car on 100% veggie oil? How does a person go about paying the fuel tax for these alt fuels? Best, Edward Mendoza [EMAIL PROTECTED] 707.537.7392 211 Hayman Court Santa Rosa, CA 95409 Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 08:13:56 - From: skillshare [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: bad news about EPA registration Re: Commercial production Hi Keith and others, I've got more info about the EPA registration issue and it's not good. I sent the info that Keith compiled http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/27488 to Jon Van Gerpen of Iowa State University who then contacted the EPA about the discrepancy in their registration process (I'm not sure who exactly he spoke with). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: price of world energy BD going up?
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Thor Skov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's my question though. I thought that US virgin oil biodiesel production was largely a bi-product of the soap industry. If true, I would expect this by-product to be somewhat insulated from price shocks. It;s a byproduct of the livestock feed industry actually- most soy in this country is grown for livestock feed, and the oil is pressed out of it first in the process of making the soy meal that goes into the feed. Since I have no idea what the market is like for biodiesel, I don't know what demand is doing. Growing, presumably, since a number of big plants are coming on line in California. But then, I would hope to see a fall in the price once that production hits the market. I think a lot of people expect this to happen but the opposite is the case. But the profit margin for commercial producers is tiny- they aren't getting rich off of this, just wasting a lot of money in the inefficient process by which biodiesel goes from being raw oil to actually fueling a vehicle. This is where local production realy shines- the economics of it are spectacular compared to centralised big production. But I think it takes a mental shift for many people to see this (ie such as potential investors)- since we're used to the paradigm in this economy that says that economy of scale leads to cheaper prices. I don't htink it applies as well to biodiesel, (at least WVO-sourced biodiesel, which is the primary California feedstock, etc...). ALso , ther's really no incentive for cost to come down- people are willing to pay it and as long as there's little competion there;'s little incentive to lower costs. The industry's strategy seems instead to be pushing for the sale of low-level blends (ie they still sell the same number of gallons but they can get them sold via a larger number of fleet vehicles without the cost being noticed) and keeping the price of B100 high. In their analysis B100 is a niche market and promoting sales of B100 takes more work and doesn't help the bottom line compared to promoting the sale of the same biodiesel as an additive or low-level blend (I've read these analyses by the way, they really do say that. It's based on 'potential market penetration' for different blends and different markets- so for instance a 5% market penetration into longdistance trucking at a B02 blend could add up to more total gallons sold by producers than a 10% market penetration as B100 for passenger cars). The lack of competition is due to 1. the EPA registration roadblock against (effectively) non-NBB member producers 2. The high costs of joining the NBB- the yearly fees exclude smalltimers, and the royalty or whatever it's called on each gallon produced adds up to a substantial cost for big producers and 3. it;s a new, unproven industry and it is not easy to find funding for ventures in it so there aren't that many plants yet. Big producers claim that a biodiesel plant costs $1 per gallon installed capacity- so that a plant making 3 million gallons a year costs 3 million dollars to build according to this rule of thumb- and that is certainly overkill for what could be accomplished by a smaller, local plant with less engineering. anyway this is a bit of a tangent from what Thor was originally asking! but I just wanted to point out a few industry factors that I think are poorly understood by consumers. mark Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: price of world energy BD going up?
It seems to have happened across the board. Imperial Western raised prices recently, as did Biodiesel INdustries. I think it's just 'cause they can'. The market now bears a higher price. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Thor Skov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The price of World Energy's biodiesel sold here in Seattle is going up on Monday the 15th by 15 cents to $3.10 a gallon. Any ideas as to the cause of this price hike? thor skov Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: NOx
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 12/5/2003 2:22:43 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: is there any other way to minimise NOx during combustion of bio diesel? If your biodiesel is produced from waste vegetable oil, animal fats, or other saturated fats, you will produce less NOx than if your biodiesel was made from new canola or soy. ANother advantage to saturated fats/waste vegetable oil biodiesel is that the cetane will be higher than biodiesel made form new oil. he disadvantage of course is that the gel point will be higher (ie gel at higher temperatures) Retarding your timing slightly also helps. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel has some info about this I believe. mark Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: test batch questions
You pretty much should do a titration, (journeytoforever.org of course or go to groups.yahoo.com/group/biodiesel and search for 'tailgate titration' which I think gives you simple instructions) Then if your oil requires more lye than 3 ml or so, I'd suggest trying a different sample of oil (in fact, I suggest that anyone making their first mini batches of biodiesel from used oil should collect samples from several restaurants and try the process and titration on several different oils...). It sometimes starts to make goo at about 5 on the titration (ie your 3.5 plus another 3.5). The goo-making is soap being made, and it's worse if ther'es free or dissolved water in the oil as well. the other thing I'm wondering aobut is that you're using a fish tank heater with a blender, and heating while stirring. I'd worry about you evaporating away much of your methanol with such a contraption (unless you have a really good lid that fits around the fish tank heater). If you evaporate the methanol while stirring the lye and vegoil around, you'll make soap rather than biodiesel. You don' t need to stir a blender for so long... 15 minutes is more than enough... take care! mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, whc281 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello. I'm a newbie, so go easy. We gathered our materials (WVO, Red Devil, methanol, old blender, fish tank heater, measuring gear, etc.) and have mixed several test batches, but it doesn't look right. One liter WVO, 200 ml CH3OH, and varied the amount of lye (3.0 g, 4.0 g, 4.5 g, 5.5 g). Mixed lye into CH3OH for 5 minutes, while WVO preheated to ~110F, then added and ran heater/mixer at ~120F for 1 hour. Poured into clear plastic jugs and allowed to settle overnight. The batches range from 10% to 5% to none, of clear golden oil on top of light brown jellied glob (90% to 99%)in the bottom. Some have white crusty island on top of the glob. Where do we go from here? I was thinking next test batch I'd try way more lye... say 8.0 g. Thanks, Bill Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Methanol Ethanol
I'm sorry, Dan, but in the real world, biodiesel doesn't lend itself well to theory. You should just get into making small liter batches, lots of people started this way and you;d get a lot further this way then just trying to apply scientific theory on the internet without making the stuff. I noticed you posting about how you're designing a continuous process as well- this also does not lend itself well to theory alone. Get yourself a Whisperlite International camp stove, or a PEtromax or something to be able to use the liter batches you make, or compost them if you don' have a use for them. Everything you are talking about could be tested out in a liter-sized scale without you needing a vehicle to use up big batches with. mark Now your turn -- what is Dan Maker's interest in biodiesel, and what are his future plans regarding its manufacture and use? Are you ever planning on actually MAKING some, or are you more the armchair theoretical type? Or maybe just trolling? -K Trolling, no. Armchair theoretical type, somewhat. At this point I'm doing research. Both in the production of BD and in uses of BD. When my current vehicle finaly wears out, I'll be replacing it with a diesel powered vehicle and produce my own BD. When the furnace in my home dies, same thing, replace with an oil burner and ditto the hot water heater. I don't see any point in replacing a functioning vehicle, and adding to the landfill problem any sooner than necessary, same goes for the furnace and water heater. I'll be making some small batches well before I get a diesel vehicle, but I dont' see much point in producing galons of BD when I don't yet have anything to use it in. A small amount would be handy as a lubricant/ solvent. I'm stiring things up wrt ethanol and ethylesters because from what I've read it seems that the application of good scientific research should be able to crack the problem. However the one theory I've put forward was shot down. Fine, I'll sit on it untill I'm ready to test it myself as I had originally intended. I only put the theory forward because there seemed to be interest in it. Good luck in your efforts, making BD with wet ethanol and WVO seems to be the current holy grail so to speak of the home brew BD world. Thanks, Dan -- Jack of all trades, master of none. Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] acid-base methods Re: Methanol Ethanol
Phosphoric acid allegedly works for acid esterification. It's a whole lot more expensive than sulfuric. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You also said that the acid base method _MUST_ be done with sulfuric acid, That's what it says, quite specifically, and other work I've seen on acid esterification also specifies that. I think it's been explained, but that was probably beyond me. I'll accept clear instructions on which different sources agree. IIRC there have been some reports of people trying hydrochloric and not getting anywhere. Perhaps a chemist could manage to make a different acid work, but even if it turned out to be possible you'd probably have to work the whole thing out from scratch, develop a new technique rather than just replace the sulphuric and proceed as before from Step 2. What for? If the existing acid-base method didn't work very well maybe, but it does work very well, it's the best method we have. If it's ethyl esters you're aiming at, you'd want to base it on a good, reliable method, not an untried newbie with potential for hidden variables, just for the sake of avoiding a much-exaggerated risk. Anyway, if you do decide to go ahead with it, do please have another look at the method and check for acids it specifically warns against. and that there were other problems with the theory my friend and I had been discussing. Unfortunantly, when I asked you to elaborate on why it had to be sulfuric acid, and what the other problems are, you did not answer. No, I didn't. I think your friend might have done better if you'd given him time to study the Foolproof Method first, rather than apparently commenting on the fly on first encounter during an IRC session. Maybe he's had time to think about it now? properly set up and running. I've never run a still before. Have you? Yes, a pot still, not adequate for ethanol production for BD, but a good starter experience. Good for you! I'm sure that's a good start. Best Keith Dan Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Bubble Wash Assembly
You can poke holes in a plastic tube with a pin to make a bubbler. with the ball inflator pin you're likely to get too much agitation and make emulsion. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, the_maniacal_engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have read about sewage plants that use thick rubber bladders with slits in them. when compressed air is put in the slitss open up and bubble, but when the air quits the slits close so there is no back flow - sort of a check valve. maybe you could use the bicycle valve of the sort that they use in Japan, which is a rubber tube over a balll needle type tube. It might also work to try using a rubber ball with a lot of holes or slits in it. I would recommend a ball with no filament winding. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Tan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dan, Thanks for the offer but I think I will try out my idea just to see if it will work. Chris =-Original Message- =From: Dan Maker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] =Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 9:50 PM =To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com =Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Bubble Wash Assembly = = =Tan said: = = Thanks for the numerous response but I have to ask again. = Could a basketball pin(used for inflating balls) be used to =deliver a jet of = air/bubbles to a wash tank if powered by a strong enough pump, let's say = portable tire air pumps? = =It could work, I'd think. But it would not work as well as the other =methods that have been discused. = = You see where I live its hard to find the parts you described. = =If you are in the US I'm sure McMaster-Carr will ship to you. I don't =know what their international shipping policy is, but I'd be glad to act =as an intermediary if that's a problem. Have it shipped to me, then I =could re-ship it to you. I've dealt with shipping small items =internationally and it's not that difficult. = =Dan =-- =Jack of all trades, master of none. =Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker =http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard = = =Biofuel at Journey to Forever: =http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html = =Biofuels list archives: =http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel = =Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. =To unsubscribe, send an email to: =[EMAIL PROTECTED] = =Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ = = Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Ethyl Biodiesel and Parallel Products
No, I'm talking about the ethyl esters article on journeytoforefver.org ewhich was written by Ken Provost. It was published about a year or year and a half ago, and I watched it make a very big difference in people's success rate with ethyl esters. Ken and SF Bay Area people- do you know that the ALcohol Can Be A Gas people (David Blume's folks) in Santa Cruz are working on setting up a fuel ethanol delivery service in our area, somewhat similar to what Yokayo Biofuels did with biodiesel- and that they'e going to be distibuting Parallel Products ethanol? (which is made from recycled materials rather than new crops or petroleum- it's the stuff Ken seems to use) They've got a depot and a truck and are going through some kind of haz-mat certification for the delivery driver I believe. Their depot is in a totally different area than santa cruz tho. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Dan Maker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: skillshare said: I think that the great thing that happened is thsat you posted your processes and tips for how to do it, to journeytoforever.org. This If you are refering to the transcript of the conversation with theory on making ethylesters, I posted that to my personal web site, and I've already removed it. Keith felt it was alarmist and had incorrect chemistry in it. I have offered it to anyone that requests it by private email. Dan -- Jack of all trades, master of none. Fiber Artist - Genealogist - Kilt Maker - Linux Geek - Piper - Woodworker http://www.xmission.com/~redbeard Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Ethyl Biodiesel a Chaotic system
I think that the great thing that happened is thsat you posted your processes and tips for how to do it, to journeytoforever.org. This made it a lot more accessible for more peopel and made it seem much less difficult. There was always a lot of interest in ethyl esters due to the sustainability/lower toxicity/local distillation angle, but the fact that there was little reliable info on how to do it with waste oil made it less realistic for most before you posted your info! mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't help noticeing the subject of ethanol biodiesel gets a lot more interest than it did, say, 1.5y ago. I have a theory -- the ethyl biodiesel system is Chaotic -- final outcome exquisitely sensitive to initial conditions. Chaos is no longer something to be feared, but embraced :-) -K Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Bubble Wash Assembly
brass, biodiesel, and air bubbles is a terrible combination. Brass contains copper and zinc, both catalysts for oxidation (I think) of biodiesel. Air bubbling is one way to speed up breakdown of biodiesel as well, very quickly. go stainless. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, James Slayden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ask Ken Provost about his better longer lasting bubbler. I use it now and it works great. For some reason I was also using standard bubblers that would degrade quite rapidly with BD contact, then I transitioned to Ken's design which is all brass. James Slayden On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Tan wrote: Keith, It seems my bubble stones clog up with soap and sometimes with bd. A basketball pin (I think that's what it's called) is the thin metal tube you insert into a basketball or any other ball to inflate it. I'm thinking that to make a jet of air in water, a strong pump is needed. But perhaps you are right. I might be an over kill and I may end up with biodiesel icing. =) Thanks, Chris =-Original Message- =From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] =Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 9:16 AM =To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com =Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bubble Wash Assembly = = =Hello Chris = =Hi all: = =Could you give your input on this? = =How about using a basketball pin and a portable air compressor (the kind =used to inflate tires) to deliver a jet of air into a bd wash tank? = =Sounds like severe overkill. But I don't know what a basketball pin is. = =I found =that using aquarium type bubble stones tend to clog up after a few wash. = =Clog up with what? = =Best = =Keith = = = =Do =you think this idea could work? = =Thanks, = =Chris = = = =Biofuel at Journey to Forever: =http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html = =Biofuels list archives: =http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel = =Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. =To unsubscribe, send an email to: =[EMAIL PROTECTED] = =Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ = = Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] zinc and copper etc. Re: Bubble Wash Assembly
don't do it in the presence of catalysts like coppe4r and zinc. Unless im confusing the two isues of what zinc/copper does and what bubbling air does. anyway, read K Shaine Tyson's 'biodiesel handling and use guidelines' (online at a government website, do a search), she talks about oxidation a little and about why to avoid those materials. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: so what would be a good gas to bubble through the biodiesel. Nitrogen does not strike me as a good one to use around glycerine, and Hydrogen would saturate any unsaturated biodiesel? Fred On Tuesday, Nov 25, 2003, at 14:07 US/Eastern, skillshare wrote: brass, biodiesel, and air bubbles is a terrible combination. Brass contains copper and zinc, both catalysts for oxidation (I think) of biodiesel. Air bubbling is one way to speed up breakdown of biodiesel as well, very quickly. go stainless. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, James Slayden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ask Ken Provost about his better longer lasting bubbler. I use it now and it works great. For some reason I was also using standard bubblers that would degrade quite rapidly with BD contact, then I transitioned to Ken's design which is all brass. James Slayden On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Tan wrote: Keith, It seems my bubble stones clog up with soap and sometimes with bd. A basketball pin (I think that's what it's called) is the thin metal tube you insert into a basketball or any other ball to inflate it. I'm thinking that to make a jet of air in water, a strong pump is needed. But perhaps you are right. I might be an over kill and I may end up with biodiesel icing. =) Thanks, Chris =-Original Message- =From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] =Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 9:16 AM =To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com =Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bubble Wash Assembly = = =Hello Chris = =Hi all: = =Could you give your input on this? = =How about using a basketball pin and a portable air compressor (the kind =used to inflate tires) to deliver a jet of air into a bd wash tank? = =Sounds like severe overkill. But I don't know what a basketball pin is. = =I found =that using aquarium type bubble stones tend to clog up after a few wash. = =Clog up with what? = =Best = =Keith = = = =Do =you think this idea could work? = =Thanks, = =Chris = = = =Biofuel at Journey to Forever: =http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html = =Biofuels list archives: =http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel = =Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. =To unsubscribe, send an email to: =[EMAIL PROTECTED] = =Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ = = Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM - ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Formerly, when religion was strong and science weak, men mistook magic for medicine; now, when science is strong and religion weak, men mistake medicine for magic. Thomas Szasz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups
[biofuel] Re: Bubble Wash Assembly
If it's five minutes. I've doen drying with air before and it took 24
hours, and I think most peole would do it this way. But tests that
they've done for oils (search for peroxidation and biodiesel, I
think one of these comes up) shows major changes within a few
hours of bubbling, which means that my drying I did last winter
probably also had this effect (polymerisatin?) (what happens to
oils and what happens to biodiesel is considered failrly similar I
believe)
mark
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It is extremely doubtful that a 5 minute circulation of
dehumidified,
ambient temperature air through biodiesel as a last finishing
step is going
to set off oxidation to any appreciable degree.
You have your choice of just warming the fuel and letting water
settle
(which, may anyone remind you, the deeper the tank, the
longer the settling
time) or pulling those last increments of invisible water (even
though the
fuel appears clear) with warmed microbubbles the size of
beer fizz.
You might also care to note that not only is the fuel going to be
utilized
before any oxidation becomes remotely problematic, but air is
essentially
free in comparison to inert gasses. The dehumidification is
not entirely
so.
Todd Swearingen
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Bubble Wash Assembly
so what would be a good gas to bubble through the
biodiesel. Nitrogen
does not strike me as a good one to use around glycerine,
and Hydrogen
would saturate any unsaturated biodiesel?
Fred
On Tuesday, Nov 25, 2003, at 14:07 US/Eastern, skillshare
wrote:
brass, biodiesel, and air bubbles is a terrible combination.
Brass
contains copper and zinc, both catalysts for oxidation (I
think) of
biodiesel. Air bubbling is one way to speed up breakdown
of biodiesel
as well, very quickly. go stainless.
mark
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, James Slayden
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ask Ken Provost about his better longer lasting bubbler. I
use it
now and
it works great. For some reason I was also using
standard bubblers
that
would degrade quite rapidly with BD contact, then I
transitioned to
Ken's
design which is all brass.
James Slayden
On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Tan wrote:
Keith,
It seems my bubble stones clog up with soap and
sometimes with bd.
A basketball pin (I think that's what it's called) is the thin
metal tube
you insert into a basketball or any other ball to inflate it.
I'm thinking that to make a jet of air in water, a strong
pump is
needed.
But perhaps you are right. I might be an over kill and I
may end
up with
biodiesel icing. =)
Thanks,
Chris
=-Original Message-
=From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
=Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 9:16 AM
=To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
=Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bubble Wash Assembly
=
=
=Hello Chris
=
=Hi all:
=
=Could you give your input on this?
=
=How about using a basketball pin and a portable air
compressor
(the kind
=used to inflate tires) to deliver a jet of air into a bd
wash
tank?
=
=Sounds like severe overkill. But I don't know what a
basketball
pin is.
=
=I found
=that using aquarium type bubble stones tend to clog
up after a
few wash.
=
=Clog up with what?
=
=Best
=
=Keith
=
=
=
=Do
=you think this idea could work?
=
=Thanks,
=
=Chris
=
=
=
=Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
=http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
=
=Biofuels list archives:
=http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel
=
=Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the
list address.
=To unsubscribe, send an email to:
=[EMAIL PROTECTED]
=
=Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
=
=
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel
Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list
address.
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Biofuels list archives
[biofuel] Re: methanol, by-products, and EPA regulations
Quote: This makes some things kind of tricky, but manageable for sure. We certainly can't let the by-product sit out in the sun to evaporate off the methanol. I just want to say that nowadays FEW of us recommend evaporating the methanol off of the biodiesel or having open containers for any reason (even the non-washers sometimes don't recommend it anymore because of an issue with soap causing gelling if the methanol isn't there to counteract it, if yu don' t wash that is) . Tha'ts a bad practice and a dangerous one from the From the Fryer To the Fuel Tank book- where Tickell apparently decided (or whomever he got his bad practices from decided) that if you just let the unwashed biodiesel or raw glycerol byproduct sit open to the air for a few days the methanol would evaporate off and the stuff would become suddenly safe to handle. Worse, he also suggests that evaporating the methanol off the glycerol this way, is enough to allow you to use the glycerol as a cleaner, etc... which most of us took as fact for a long time. I did some experiments with this (soap uses of the glycerol) two summers ago and realized that when I smeared the glycerol around (to use as parts cleaner) I got a huge whiff of methanol even though I'd been 'evaporating' the methanol off for two weeks in 104degree summer heat. uh oh is right. It's a practice that needs to go away. There are a quite a few of those, mostly based on the bad info in the book that spread bad info early on. We're close to eliminating them, I think- but it'll take some concerted infosharing like the post below, and an effort to make this stuff 'common knowledge', because there was so much flawed info that the homebrew movement started out based on. Personaly I think that some of it has to be eliminated with better equipment, and sharing detailed info about that equipment, because most of this stuff is common sense and related to safety and quality, and if you present someone with a safe and commonsense solution and the logic behind why it should be so, they will generally adopt it if the equipment is within their reach.. You can't tell that all the methanol is gone unless you use a still. You can make a small still out of a modified pressure cooker, if your objective is to make usable glycerol (ie get rid of the methanol before turning it into soap or whatever). on a large scale lots of peopel have had success making a still out of a water heater, or an old propane tank properly built into a still, or an air compressor tank. Todd's evaporator, or a flash evaporator, are the next grade up of technologies maximizing the energy inputs needed for recoveyr. But they shouldn't be optional processes. I realized a while back that the methanol management was a big issue that homebrewers were ignoring en masse. It shouldn't be optional (I';m just getting into it right now myself, though, I'm including myself in this 'masse'!) This requires changing the practices of a few hundred or thousand people, and quick. IT's part of my anti-plastic-processor campaign, and part of the water heater processor thing- you can't do methanol recovery on a plastic processor. The methanol management (or mismanagement) issue also started with the Tickell practices (or is it Tom Reed, or U of Idaho, or whomever Tickell's book was sourced from...) . tickell, and therefore all the rest of us, made a huge deal out of how everything in the process is biodegradable(ie the practice of composting your raw glycerol byproduct, methanol fumes and all, like I do!). The truth is that on examining the practices in that book and all the ways they influenced conventional biodiesel practice, we've followed a few of his (or his ghost writers') unexamined assumptions. The attitude that 'everything is biodegradable and there;s nothing really all that bad about this process they way we do it' is flawed. It was interesting going to the ISU workshops this year and seeing how peopel who weren't from our homebrew community approached the whole issue of toxics and hazmat and releases into the environment. ANd how they approached quality. And how they approached safety. I kept thinking, this is how homebrewing could have looked like if it weren't for that damn book. Everything they were teaching (course was for commercial producers, www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel) could be implemented on a homebrew scale. Todd's diagram is pretty close. Anyway, Dr L. Davis Clements, who was one of the early Americal biodiesel researchers in the 90's at U of Nebraska-Lincoln, was one of the teachers, and I kept thinking, all the good info they're teaching was available at the time Tickell did his book (97?), he could have interviewed these guys at the time. Homebrewing could look so different right now, we could be following much safer better practices. It's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt following practices we accept
[biofuel] heat exchangers and copper etc was The real URL
Counterflow (water-cooled) heat exchanger like the one stuck to the side of Dale Scroggins processor at journeytoforever, or a copper coil attached using flare fittings (look up what that means theyr'e easy to make) or a car radiator with some valving to be able to adjust the rate at which the material flows out of the tank into the heat exchanger. remember, copper is bad for use in a tank for biodiesel production, but it's fine for distillation of methanol. I figured out how it's done by reading some moonshine books about stills. There is probably a good website on making fuel or drinking ethanol that'll cover the construction in detail, just think 'water heater' while you read a description of a still. The counterflow shell-in-tube heat exchanger gizmo can be built for $20-$50 depending on size. I'm trying out a smallish one (6 feet?). I had most of the parts for about a year and couldn't figure out what I was missing to make it work, thought it was more complicated than it was. Then Home Power magazine published a great how-to article on building these things- I had one wrong piece of plumbing that I didn't know enough about and the how-to article made me smack my head and go WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT. Their application was for a solar hot water application. Once again, don t use them this way for biodiesel production, just for methanol recovery. on a side note, I've been looking into non-copper heat exchangers and tonight I just got given a BEAUTIFUL SeCesPol stainless steel heat exchanger- and they're not all that expensive, like under $200 possibly if I had the numbers correct? It's something I'm using for our future and much-talked-about solar heating system. CeSespol is 888-738 1350 . The one I got is a B-line. It looks like a big silver thermos. They also make those compact little brazed stacked-plate heat exchangers that Elsbett puts into their vehicles. I believe THOSE aren't all that expensive either. anyway do a search on the internet that company surely must have their info on there. They're made in Poland and they're a shell-in-tube with the tubes riffled so as to increase turbulence and heat transfer. I think I'm getting obsessed with the solar hot water thing, been collecting all kinds of stuff with the target goal of putting it on the roof of the Team Canola coop before our January workshop for farmers. After some other fun projects I just worked on (unrelated to biodiesel but to electricity instead!!!) I realized tonight that I've become an engineering groupie. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Maud Essen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you, Mark! This is so very helpful...exactly what I needed! One question, though: what do you attach to condense the methanol and what is the procedure for doing that safely? This (methanol being a fossil fuel) is part of biodiesel production that has really concerned me. That and it's explosive nature, of course. Thanks again! Maud You have to put the address below into your browser window as a cut and paste, just clicking on it might not work and brings up another message instead. The Veggie Avenger board's been deadish for a while now, (we have another forum in northern california that's heavily used) but he just added a file upload and photo upload sectin that's very useful. http://www.veggieavenger.com/avengerboard/viewtopic.php?p= 8 33#833 mark Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: pumps, etc.
If you use another type of pump other than a centrifugal like the clear water pump, you definitely need to put in a sight tube because the level in the pump line is sometimes not accurate with other pumps. I had bad luck with cheap and small mag-drive stuff, haven't checked the link you posted though. I ve never seen one of the blue Clear Water pumps leak, though the black plastic housing over the wiring does fall apart if you get biodieel on it for a year and expose it to the elements and then drag it around all over the place for classes like I did. Get the SUrplus Center catalog as well if you're looking at suppliers of gear. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Maud Essen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Todd, is this magnetic drive pump big enough for Mark's water heater design? http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productdetail.jsp?xi=xiItemId =1611762438ccitem= Thanks. Maud Todd replied to Sue... The pump you referenced is a clear water pump and is known to leak quite easily. It would probably work. But put a drip pan underneath it. A magnetic drive pump would be a more leakproof option. snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Girl Mark's Processor Plans uploaded
I used the Veggieavenger forum to upload the design notes for the processors I've been building. I've put together a few of these now and they cost me about $120-$150, about one and a half hours fo work, and use off-the-shelf parts from hardware stores and two or so catalog places (plastics place for carboys and Harbor Freight or Northern Tool for pump. They take no welding or soldering (you shouldn't use copper for biodiesel anyway) and no skills other than threading things together using thread tape and tightening things with a pipe wrench and a pair of channellock pliers. ANd, they're safer than plastic conicals and do as good of a job as most of the conicals I've used Here it is, more (cheap wash tank) plans and photos coming eventually. http://www.veggieavenger.com/avengerboard/viewtopic.php?p=8 33#833 mark Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: biodiesel test gone mad?
Hi Handel, you've made soap in the reprocess. It's common and annoying but it happens. You can try the test with less lye- 1 gram per liter instead of 3.5- and with less methanol so yu can see what you're doing a little better (the methanol will dilute all that glycerine and make it look like you made more than you did). If it still soaps on the reprocess test, is your fuel washed AND DRIED? or is it unwashed fuel? in either case the reprocess will work but it might soap up more if the fuel is in an intermediate stage of washing when you took yousr sample to reprocess... mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Handel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey alll ! I did a test of my wvo turned biodiesel today to be sure of its quality. I read in journey to forever that one test for excess glycerine that might be in the fuel, is to reprocess the fuel as you would virgin veggie oil. Excess glycerine should fall out after mixing.I did that, and came out with a weird looking mixture. At the top appears to be biodiesel, cloudy and yellow. Lower down was something that looked like jelly, seemingly translucent, and semi- solid, and the bottom seems to be a very thin layer of a slightly darker version of whats at the top. (perhaps just more of whats at the top squeezed below the jelly area.) Nothing that appears to be glycerine when compared to glycerine I made with WVO and Virgin oil. Now I remember reading that if too much NaOH is in the initial reaction, the left over lye will contiue breaking bonds, incuding ester bonds. So is it possible that the jelly area I am seeing is fat molecules that have been split from the alcohol molecule due to more lye mixed with my perfectly good biodiesel? What thinks the wise Elders of the forum? Regards, Handel Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] The real URL for Re: Girl Mark's Processor
You have to put the address below into your browser window as a cut and paste, just clicking on it might not work and brings up another message instead. The Veggie Avenger board's been deadish for a while now, (we have another forum in northern california that's heavily used) but he just added a file upload and photo upload sectin that's very useful. http://www.veggieavenger.com/avengerboard/viewtopic.php?p=8 33#833 mark Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Biodiesel 'In Person'- upcoming events in SF Bay Area
Workshops! Biodiesel Events in the San Francisco Bay Area: For more information and updates, see www.groups.yahoo.com/group/norcal-biodiesel-events November 22 10 am ~ 4 pm BIODIESEL HOMEBREW HOW-To A Hands On WORKSHOP Instructor: Steve Bash At 8047 Dorian Way Fair Oaks, CA (Steve's Home) *Cost: $ 65 (Pre-registration only, limited to 12 people) *Includes organic vegetarian lunch 35 min. instructional video For more info and registration call : 916-967-9258 (Steve Bash or Sawako Ama) [EMAIL PROTECTED] November 29 10-3 Introduction to Homebrewing Biodiesel Workshop, Oakland. Instructor Jennifer Radtke. Cost: $5-$10 sliding scale. Bring potluck lunch to share. To register email jenniferradtke@ yahoo.com December 7 10am -4 pm Comprehensive Homebrew Biodiesel Workshop, Santa Cruz Instructor Maria 'Mark' Alovert. Cost: $15-$50 sliding scale, textbook $5, location to be announced. Bring potluck lunch to share. Contact wrench @ tinkersworkshop.org for info and to register. December 11 7 pm- A Forum on Biodiesel and Straight Vegetable Oil Fuels, Biofuel Oasis, Berkeley. Panel discussion. contact : jenniferradtke @ yahoo.com, www.biofueloasis.com December 13th Biodiesel Processor and Equipment Building Class. (location to be announced, probably San Gregorio). Instructor: Maria 'Mark' Alovert. Contact: wrench @ tinkersworkshop.org $15- 50 sliding scale, plus equipment costs if building a processor (optional, if building a processor, costs are about $120-$150 depending on design). 10-3 pm. Bring potluck lunch to share. January 5th. Berkeley Biodiesel Co-op introductory QA session for new members/ biodiesel Q A. - see www.berkeleybiodiesel.org for details January 17th 2004 Homebrew Biodiesel for Farmers- a workshop and discussion forum 10-4 pm (east Bay location) taught by Maria 'Mark' Alovert, Jennifer Radtke, and Pamela Beitz. $15-$50 sliding scale. Bring potluck dish to share. Contact: wrench @ Tinkersworkshop.org for details and to register January 18th Comprehensive Homebrew Biodiesel Workshop, 10-4 pm. instructor Maria 'Mark' Alovert, East Bay location. $15-$50 sliding scale, $5 textbook, bring potluck lunch to share. Contact wrench@ tinkersworkshop.org for more information. January 31-Feb 1 Claremont, CA: Biodiesel passenger car users' convention and strategy conference. More info available after December 6th. Feb 1-4, Palm Springs National Biodiesel Board industry meeting and public conference. See www.biodiesel.org for more information. Febuary (tentative) Homebrew Biodiesel Intensive, Santa Cruz. Two weekends, 24 hours of class time total, intensively hands-on. Contact wrench @ tinkersworkshop.org for details. $50-$200 sliding scale total, $5 for text. Bring potluck lunch to share. May 6-9, 2004 Women's Homebrew Biodiesel Intensive. Taught by Maria 'Mark' Alovert and Pamela Beitz. $50-$200 sliding scale total, textbook $5. We hope to have childcare, floorspace for students coming from out of town, and catered lunch available for this seminar. contact wrench @tinkersworkshop.org for regi Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it)
On a slightly different note, is there anyone turning off the heat entirely before adding the methoxide/ethanol equivalent? This would be ideal because it could eliminate the need to heat the mixing tank if the oil were pre-heated. (I'm particularly interested if this would work for any rendition of the Foolproof method my Aleks Kac.) Almost all of the time you would turn off the heat before adding methoxide, so it's pretty hard to blow anything up even with an open flame nearby unless you neglect a few things at once (like your pilot ight in a gas heater!) and you have a problematic system in the first place (such as an inadequately sealed processor). The exception to the rule of turning off the heat before introducing methoxide, might be heating during the reaction in deep winter in an unheated space- where adding cold methoxide to hot oil will drop it's temperature too low. What's too low, you may ask? Some oils will have problems with conversion unless the heat is pushed quite high. SOmetimes people claim that stirring for longer periods compensates completely for low temperatures, but I and others have found that this doesn't always work with certain oils- you really need the heat to deal with this stuff (there's a thread on Maui/infopop called 'suspended white stuff' or 'suspended stuff free at last' or something like that which describes a typical poor-conversion troubleshooting experience which was finally solved by heat. I had a very very similar experience last winter myself). Temperature, and it's impact on conversion with some oils, is half of the reason why sometimes beginners will have problems (emulsion formation in bubblewash) washing for months, but find that once summer comes along, the washing problems go away (the other half of that issue is that higher ambient temperatures affects ease of washing as well as affecting good conversion) However, unless you're working outdoors in deep winter, you USUALLY dont' need to heat during the reaction- use lots of insulation instead so it doesnt' go cold during the reaction (my other broken record mantra, besides 'build a fumeless system', is 'use lots of insulation'). lots of insulation is something like 5 inches of it taped on a processor. The more insulation the merrieer. I use recycled bubblewrap trashpicked from the local gift shop dumpsters down the street, and I tape it all over to a thickness of 5 inches. My processors sometimes look like the Michelin Tire man. Again, most of these potential dangers of fire or explosion are absolutely minimised if you use a sealed system and don't create any explosive/toxic atmospheres in the work area in the first place. This is EASY to achieve (fumeless equipment that is) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it)
There';s been a great series in Home Power magazine in the last few issues about domestic soolar hot water, including some heat exchange stuff. It's a good primer to what we're doing with heat exchangers. That said, most heat exchangers are made of copper, which we should stay away from for biodiesel processing as it decreases storage stability of the product (in a few hours of contact when heated I believe). Use stainless steel if possible )I got some stainless tubing designed as a liquid-to-liquid heat exchanger, from a specialty refrigeration application). On the other hand most homebrewers don't have biodiesel sitting around (other than Pieter who stores his for a year before using) for long periods of time so maybe that's not as big of an issue. We usualy just don't produce all that much of it at once so in our area at least (where there's a homebrewer community and high demand!) it tends to get used up fairly rapidly. When biodiesel breaks down over time some of the byproducts released include acids (acetic and formic I believe) which can do some serious damage to fuel injection equipment. ONe of themoderators of biodieselnow.com just had a very expensive injection pump failure which looked like rust formation. This was with improperly stored commercial World Energy (ie soy, I believe in his area) biodiesel. There's no way to know for sure but this is definitely a possibility if you're running stuff that starts to break down. The other storage stability issue is polymerisation which is more like running improperly designed SVO, so you want to avoid both of these problems. I can't remember offhand which problem copper catalyses (I think it's oxidation), so sorry I don' thave better information. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello to all, Would Todd or some other send a description of a closed loop heat exchanger? I would greatly appreciate it. Bill Clark - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] open flame heat sourses (was: aaron--don't do it) Hi Aaron Todd: Of course I would use a closed loop heat exchanger. Good call on the differences of wood flames a Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Wet Oil OK?
I'd be interested to see what sort of soap production you get (you can do the soap test with bromophenol blue indicator and hydrochloric acid as described at the Leonardo site to get real numbers on this...). In nicer oil like yours it's not a huge problem most likely, but comparitively (ie compared to drying the oil first)??? I've been working all summer on reducing the amount of water used in my washing, mostly through water reuse (ie countercurrent water reuse). SOmetimes I've got it down to 1/3 new water to 1 biodiesel just through doing reuse- AND through making sure it's dry oil and it's low-ffa in the first place. IN my case I have to worry about it because it's SUCH a royal pain to dispose of the water at my site- it's a very far walk to the drain on the other side of the building complex with buckets and I'm not allowed to set up a pumping system to deal with it. When I deal with being this persnickety about water usage, I notice that the slightest thing wrong with the biodiesel quality (ie soap) makes a big difference in the washing and causes me to use more water. Ken, where are you getting ethanol from these days and how much is it for both the drier stuff and this wet version? mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess my recent expts. with wet alcohol have a corollary: the oil as well can be wetter than we may have been led to believe. I certainly won't worry any more about boil- ing til the sputtering stops completely (yes I know some of you never did:-)), given that the alcohol can have 5% water and still Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Fwd: Weekend fire destroys backyard biodiesel operation
Please forward this message widely, the list below of hazards in the other message is very good. It all points to closed, and I mean really, really closed, systems- preferably ones capable of containing some pressure. Working outdoors reduces some of these risks but there's really no excuse not to use a closed fumeless processor. . Here's one other dangerous variable that most people are unaware of: water in oil when making biodiesel What's that , you say? water as a fire hazard? Here's how it happens: If you pump-mix methoxide with wet oil, there is a slight danger of localised boiling of methanol (!) IF the ratios of methoxide to wet oil is high. This inproper ratio only happens if your methoxide inlet to the pump is large compared to the oil inlet, or if any valves in the two lines (oil and methoxide) are open to the wrong ratio (ie oil mostly closed down and methoxide wide open). For example, a 3/4 piece of tubing for methoxide delivery going into a pump along with a 3/4 inch oil inlet tube is what I consider a high ratio. (I now use 3/8 inch methoxide tubing and 3/4 oil, with a valve on the methoxide tube, which is only opened slightly) What happens is this: the lye in the methoxide can produce heat when it hits water (from the oil). Normally if your ratios are correct, we're not using enough lye (and there should'nt be enough water) to cause this to raise the temperature in a whole tank of (even very wet) oil. But in a pump-mix situation with incorrect tubing ratios, there is momentarily a situation in the pump plumbing where the oil/water quantity is low and the methanol/lye quantity is high- which could get hot enough to surpass the boiling point of methanol (148F/60C). If your tank isn't a closed system (and plastic conical tanks and their 'manhole' covers are not a closed system!) then the methanol vapors will boil out of your tank, and the tank will pressurise (yet another reason for avoiding plastic as a mixing tank) which means that any normally invisible leaks will spray methanol-containing hot oil/biodiesel out of the tank. You may also notice a bunch of soap being made- there'll be odd gelling if the oil/ biodiesel/methanol makes it's way out of the tank! I don't think people are very aware of this problem. Pump mixing is absolutely, hands-down superior to stirred tank mixing- and it's far easier to build a sealed system with a pump rather than a stirred tank- but you have to have the methoxide delivery be slow, both for the safety reasons above and to keep the production of soap down. I think peopel sometimes rush to mix in their methoxide (because after that step there's no more operator involvement needed) but there are a few good reasons to slow down methoxide delivery- 1. preventing the overpressure situaiton above 2. not making a bunch of soap (which happens in the above situaion because there's too much lye for the amount of oil in the pipe) and 3. making sure you get a very, very good initial mix of reactants, which is easier to control in the pump ratios rather than hoping that it'll all mix through circulation later on. not using wet oil is of course also important. I think Tom offered some strong clues as to the how of the fire. My bet is that the boiling methanol caused frothing of the oil and boiling over the edge of an open or perhaps even vented reactor. Anyway, here are some of the things that have been pointed out as potential fire problems in the past. Doesn't hurt to place them back in the public view once again in a composite manner. --- Open reactor and poor ventilation in the presence of an ignition source. Ignition sources can be: a) Using combustible fuels as a direct heat source (ie propane, natural gas, wvo, wood, etc.), rather than a heat exchange system where the flame is far removed from the processing area. b) Open electric motor housings, rather than TEFC motors (at minimum). c) Disconnecting an electrical appliance by pulling out the wall plug, rather than using enclosed switches. d) A match or lighter (open flame, Part Dieu). Other fire sources can be over taxed pumps and motors in close proximity to combustible materials (garage walls, plastic barrels, almost anything), oversized breakers and/or fuses, undersized wiring (such as 14/2 Romex) for higher amperage draws. And there always is the danger of spontaneous combustion in the presence of oily rags, most predominant when working with drying oils such as hemp and linseed. This threat decreases as the saturation of the oil/fat increases. There are probably a dozen other hazards that don't come readily to mind at the moment. But these are the basics. mark adds: It's easy enough for me to suggest working outdoors since I live in California and it's fairly warm all the time. If you are indoors and are using a ventilation system, please do some research about ventilation of
[biofuel] ..now Biodiesel Courses
I teach all kinds of classes in biodiesel- everything from a 2-hour presentation to a 3-month internship. I try to do workshops in Northern California every six weeks or so (if you're local to california, check for classes by signing on to the events listing= www.groups.yahoo.com/group/norcal-biodiesel-events) THe processor build I was describing is part of the three-month weekly course that I'm running with my friend Jennifer Radtke here in berkeley and that class is an attempt to start a new homebrewing co-op based on decentralised 'cells' and other relatively new ideas I think (I won't repeat that length of class for a while, I've done two of these three-month, free, weekly classes back-to-back now and it's absolutely insane the amount of work involved! last week, in addition to spending some time 'working' on the campaign against the labeling standards here, I clocked three full days in prep work for class, class teaching, additional sessions with students, and breaking everything down from the setup. this is the end of the three-month session so the classes are getting a bit more complex towards the end Needless to say I have absolutely no life at the moment) Part of what makes this class this long is that I try and cover everything I can think of that's relevant- including basic plumbing, basic industrial scavenging issues, some of the basics of electrical- and basic tool use to some extent, which lots of peopel here in the city have no experience with, but which I think are skills just as important to homebrewing as the chemistry. You can certainly become VERY acomplished with this stuff in less time than that and without a class, just find yourself a curriculum (for example subject categories on journeytoforever) and follow it and practice the different stuff weekly. I don't usually travel these days- so, sorry, no Jamaica for me. Sounds like a great opportunity for somebody though! Most people will tell you that you can learn lots about making biodiesel just following directinos on journeytoforever etc, tons of people have done it- courses are more out of the ordinary than they are the norm... good luck! mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Mike Barnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: girl_mark_fire and others, Was this a course on bio-diesel making? And are there instructors on this list that are willing to instruct and train persons in making biodiesel. Suppose I wanted to setup a training session here in Jamaica, anyone interested? Write me on or offlist if needs be. Mike JAMAICA - Original Message - From: girl_mark_fire [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 1:27 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Biodiesel Processor Pumps We built this system in a class I'm teaching and it was a good opportunity to teach all kinds of basic skills stuff- a Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Tq9otC/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] now back to cold weather was Webb Hot STK - was Re
Keith and anyone else- Does anyone have any info bout how Elsbett's ENGINES work with cold weather (ie not their conversion kits, but the SVO-compatibhle engines they built in the past). Did they still recommend part dinodiesel in winter, or did redesigning the engine itself help with some of the cold weather issues (obviously you can't do much about something as extreme as a gelled fuel line, but it seems that there's a bit more that could potentially improve the startup performance of SVO in above-gelling cold temps if you were designing an engine from the ground up) mark Whatever, when you filter all that eco-goodwill down to the proportion of drivers who'll actually be prepared to fiddle with a thingie here and a widget there when it comes to using biodiesel/SVO in cold weather, when they don't have to do that with petro-diesel, you're left with not very much more than a small minority of enthusiasts. If you want to get it into the mainstream it needs better answers - ideally, answers that mean they don't have to do anything more to use biodiesel/SVO than they'd have to do for petro-diesel. As Todd said, better solutions needed, a failproof domestic method, turn the key and go. This is the same argument I've used so often, and others too (including you), about two-tank SVO systems: ... in establishing what works and what doesn't work, some are likely to be left with the remains of what didn't work. They'll be heroes in the cause of real straight vegetable oil diesel motors, that anyone can use, not just enthusiasts -- manufacturer-made, supplied and warranted diesels that can run on petro-diesel, biodiesel or straight vegetable oil, in any blend, without any fuel-switching or fuss: fill 'er up, switch on and go, stop and switch off, like any other car. Currently only the Elsbett system does that. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html The TDI-SVO controversy On-list: I feel sorta badly about promoting the Elsbett when Ed and Charlie are making such good kits, but the Elsbett is of a higher order - truly something that allows Granny to drive your car (or her car) on SVO - just tell her she can fuel up with dinodiesel if she runs out of SVO on the road. - craig reece, 2003-01-21 I'm hoping that widespread SVO use worldwide will persuade the manufacturers to invest in true multi-fuel diesels, which is what the Elsbett system gives you, because until then Granny and a few billion others just aren't going to do it. That leaves the two-tank systems as a transitional technology, but still with a good future because all those older diesels are going to last for decades. - Keith Addison 2003-01-26 I'm with you - anything that furthers the spread of SVO/'WVO and biodiesel is, or should be, our primary purpose when it comes to this exciting technology. And making it more user-friendly is a big part of that. - craig reece, 2003-01-26 Same applies to cold-weather use - Granny and the soccer moms in Sheboygan just won't do it. Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/mk9osC/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: SVO systems
I would say, none of the above- and I'd go with Neoteric (biofuels.ca I believe)! that said, I've seen a lot of systems (I dont use SVO though) and here's my opinion: Elsbett- onetank system, not made for all vehicles (they won't touch anything with a Stanodyne pump which means ford and chevy trucks/vans are out. this is a good thing in my opinion). Less flexible in very cold weather than a twotank system is. Poor installation directions, and overly complicated electronics which have had problems in some installations (there have abeen a number of elsbett installs done here in northern california by Craig Reece and others, craig now supports a different way to do the same thing I believe). And it's hard to get ordered (peopel locally complain about it all the time who've tried to order one) and communication/technical support is also reputed to be terrible. Kit is expensive. Greasecar- way too expensive in my opinion for what the system is, among other things. It's a fairly old-school twotank system with a hose in hose heat exchanger (or was, last I checked) which I don't like for leakage possibilities (which I've also seen happen!). Pros: the backflush circuit con: the same backflush circuit is more parts to break down, and peopel have driven thousands of miles without such a device greasel: about a year ago, greasel replaced their old heat exchanger design with a diffeerent type of heat exchanger- the triple bypass hose- three teflon tubes in a plastic jacket. This is a good step up in my opinion (Ive seen a lot of vehicles with both this and greasecar kits installed). ALso if I recall correctly the greasel is considerably cheaper, and the technical support I've heard is excellent. Neoteric: Ed is on this list and will no doubt tell you some of their features. One option is a 12V heater which you can buy by itself and add to any other system to lend flexibility of course, and there are a lot of advantages (rapid SVO switchovers and flushes) to this type of heating rather than coolant-based, especialy when compared with homemade hose-in-hose types of heat eschangers in my opinion.neoteric has some fancier kits that sound really exciting (but I haven't seen them personally) I think Keith printed a post the other day which had links to other (european) SVO websites and which might give you a bit more info about things like singletank (elsbvett-type) system possibilities. I think there really a need for an independent (ie not aligned with a kit maker) website which details all the different features of possible SVO conversions so that these types of questions can be answered at a glance without wading through kit manufacturers advertising/claims to be the best system. I looked at the journeytoforever SVO pages a while ago and while it's a decent page, it didn't have the type of breakdown of the options which I was looking for (and again I really, really can't do graphics so I can't put this sort of thing together myself!). PLease, anybody, is there such a page out there? mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, pathtofreedom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Can anyone tell me the advantages/disadvantages of these SVO kit systems. Elsbett http://www.elsbett.com Greasel http://www.greasel.com Grease Car http://www.greasecar.com I'm having a hard time deciding which one is best - new at this and there is noone to help me in my area. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Continuous processing
Chris, Your volumes are too small for a full-scale continuous plant if my sources of information are correct. I've studied this subject a bit when looking at plant design for a friend ( the 'studied' was via personal communication with a few people in commercial biodiesel and process engineering, and taking a couple of the Iowa State University courses on commercial biodiesel production technology, which were co-taught by a continuous process plant builder, and covered in great detail what circumstances to utilise batch plants and what circumstances to utilise continuous, and hybrids of both) It's really expensive in material and engineering to build such a unit, and it takes a lot of 'tuning' for the process. Continuous process makes sense when you're very high-volume. We were looking at building a half million gallon per year plant at the time (which is considered extremely small, believe it or not), and the advice we universally got was that we were too small for true continuous to make sense. half a million gallons a year is 1400 gallons per day if you were theoreticaly operating with no down time and running 24/7 (not likely!) , which is about 5000 liters per day in that case- much more than your volumes, and still considered 'too small' for efficient operation. After our research we were not 100% convinced that it could not be done- but a lot of different factors point to batch processing or a hybrid approach even at the scale we were looking at. Part of the reasoning is that a continuous plant should be run 24 hours a day- there is a lot more metal to heat up than in a batch plant, and it causes problems, expense, and time, to heat it up and shut it down every shift like you would do if you could not get enough business or enough feedstock to run it 24 hours a day. There have been half million gallons per year pilot plants built here 'continuous'- but I imagine that they were operating inefficiently, more as a research facility prior to the company installing their fullscale plant. Most of my information is on facilities in the US, not in Europe or elsewhere, and I am not an expert by any means. I got the impression that continuous plants are more the norm over there, and batch is more the norm here in the US. Todd is right, do it in batch-style. But don't do 1000 gallon batches (anybody). It's very difficult to do a good mix in such a big tank. I've heard anecdotally that a few people who have attempted it had trouble getting a good mix during the reaction (and therefore got poor conversion, not meeting standards, which matters if you're commercial, might matter less to you personally if you're homebrew or farm-scale). The plant design engineer I asked about this suggested that 500 gallons is a good limit for a reasonable stirred-tank batch reactor. In my case, 250 or 500 gallon tanks are cheap to find.Get two of them and run them to get your 1000 batches. That being said, there are lots of places in the process where a hybrid batch-continuous approach makes sense. I think washing is one of them- countercurrent washing where biodiesel flows in one direction and water flows in the other. Dewatering is probably better done with flow rather than in pot stills. Mixing catalyst/methanol into oil is in my opinion far, far better done with pumps (and static baffle type mixers if you;re really concerned about big batches) than with a stirred tank (and might eliminate the 'big batch/poor mixing' problem.) Some stagewise approaches like the two-stage base-base processes seem well-geared to semi-continuous operation. Oil pretreatment (ie dewatering and filtration) can be automated as a continuous flow. But for small plants, it seems to me that it is difficult to startup and shutdown the system if it is a true continuous plant, and it also seems to me that it would defeat the purpose of continuous systems if you had to continually adjust it day to day for differing feedstock. Also on Todd's coment on question three: that 'glycerol' that forms in the acid side of the reacion is actually water and methanol with some free fatty acid (methanol is a solvent for ffa) and some of your sulfuric acid and some colorants from the oil (I think this is detailed more in Dr. Jon Van Gerpen's papers on the process, which can be found somewhere on www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel) . Remove this layer (and recover it's methanol), the water is a big problem, especially for the acid esterification process (water stops the esterification). If what is happening in the acid side is mostly esterification of free fatty acids rather than transesterification of triglycerides, then there should'n't be much glycerol forming. My opinion is also that a hybrid approach would give you more flexibility if something in the process doesn't behave as planned (ie acid side of the reacion not reducing ffa as much as desired and needing to be re-run, problems in
[biofuel] Mark Schofield's BD plant was Re: USING SEPAR
and? which acidbase process, for which feedstock, what variations, are yu using, where you found it (and where we can that is) and what have you found in the process that you vary depending on the feedstock? mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, mark schofield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Depends on the feed stock. Mark --- skillshare [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: which acid-base method are you using? mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, mark schofield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All Yes, the samples are being sent to a GC lab on Monday. The most basic test is to boil to 60'C cool and then freeze thaw. If the product does not cloud and is pH neutral, its good enought for GC testing. I certainly haven't seen any problems to date. I have bought a 205 1.8 Diesel to be fitted with a re-furb engine for long term emission tests. I have bought a vacuum recovery unit capable of removing 125 moles of Methanol a second, which is of order 6300 CFM at 50mtorr. It is a beast of a plant, I am very happy with it. I had a site visit yesterday (Thursday 2 Oct) and everything looks to be getting there in part. I can operate at single base, double base or acid-base depending upon the feed stock. The plant will be on-line in 3 months. I may open a web site detailing our progress. Regards Mark = Mark Schofield M.Sc B.Eng DHE AMIMechE t 07944 401662 e [EMAIL PROTECTED] Autogas Conversions and LPG Pumps __ __ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.c __ __ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yaho Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Mark Schofield's BD plant was Re: USING SEPAR
which acid-base method are you using? mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, mark schofield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All Yes, the samples are being sent to a GC lab on Monday. The most basic test is to boil to 60'C cool and then freeze thaw. If the product does not cloud and is pH neutral, its good enought for GC testing. I certainly haven't seen any problems to date. I have bought a 205 1.8 Diesel to be fitted with a re-furb engine for long term emission tests. I have bought a vacuum recovery unit capable of removing 125 moles of Methanol a second, which is of order 6300 CFM at 50mtorr. It is a beast of a plant, I am very happy with it. I had a site visit yesterday (Thursday 2 Oct) and everything looks to be getting there in part. I can operate at single base, double base or acid-base depending upon the feed stock. The plant will be on-line in 3 months. I may open a web site detailing our progress. Regards Mark = Mark Schofield M.Sc B.Eng DHE AMIMechE t 07944 401662 e [EMAIL PROTECTED] Autogas Conversions and LPG Pumps __ __ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.c Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] copper and storage stability was Re: Biodiesel Processor Pumps
The issue isn't as bad as I might have made it sound. The problem with copper is that it starts the breakdown process for biodiesel (I can't remember if it's polymerisation or oxidation at the moment, I thikn it's poilymerisation which would make these precautions apply to SVO as well for long-term storage). This is mostly a problem if you're a large producer who is making BD which will be stored for long periods of time, where you have no control of how long it is stored after you sell it. In the case of homebrewers we usually use up the product fairly quickly. so in my opinion, I'd stay away from, say, heat exchangers in the tank made out of copper (ie lots of area exposed to copper), I try and avoid galvanixed (ie zinc) plumbing if possible (cause there is a cheap alternative- black iron pipe which is also problematic but not as much as zinc I believe), but I certainly use brass valves because there's not another affordable option. It seems like there's a tradeoff between what's cheap and available and what's compatible. in the case of homebrew you just don't have a choice sometimes (and plastics come with their own set of problems). Personaly, I wouldn't worry about a few fittings here and there, but that's my own opinion and reading of the info I've gotten. I asked some researchers about fittings and valves and other such applications where copper or brass (and zinc) are in contact with biodiesel handling equipment. It was in the context of a conversation about storage for commercial fuel- several close friends of mine are in the business of selling commercial biodiesel or are starting commercial production, and members of our co-op had a big unwanted 'donation' this summer of ruined commercial biodiesle which had gone 'bad' in storage- oxidised- so we're concerned about avoiding this in our own commercial fuel handling. Brent Shanks of Iowa State University, who I believe has studied the issue of copper/zinc catalising biodiesel storage stability deterioration (he's a chemist whose specialty is catalysts) said that it's mostly a problem with high temperatures, so for things like finished fuel storage tanks with a brass valve his opinion was that it didn't matter as much as it did for processing equipment. This is partly why I say avoid the 'copper coil in the tank' style of cheap DIY heat exchanger in contact with biodiesel or oil, but since you can't avoid brass valves (and maybe your copper fittings) then just use them and don' t expect to store the fuel for years and years. The tests for storage degradagtion are acid value (ie the same titration we do on oil) going up over time, and viscosity changes, both measured against a baseline of what the fuel was like in the beginning of storage. Not a real problem in homebrew situations. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Mike Staggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Question Mark I am almost done with my own processor and I used copper fittings to connect the hose to the plastic barrels. Is that going to be a problem? Thanks Mike -Original Message- From: girl_mark_fire [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 4:28 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [b Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Mark Schofield's BD plant was Re: USING SEPAR
that';s what I'm asking you. What in house (or farmed-out) tests are you doing that tell you that youre processes are achieving what you want, and what is your finished fuel like in terms of testing? You keep talking aobut 'crisp and clear' biodiesl at various early stages of the process, which in my (and others, for instance Dr Jon Van Gerpen) experience, isn't always a good test (ie you can have nasty levels of soapiness in fuel which is very clear looking, etc). Analytical is one of my big interests in biodiesel so that's what prompted my question- what else are you looking at besides clarity. It sounds like an interesting process! thank you for sending it out in such detail! Reading over it, I'd say that I'd worry just a little bit about scalability for some of what you're looking at. some things that behave a certain way in a little lab batch don't always scale up as well in a continuous plant, from what I've heard and seen (havn't seen centrifuge processes personally though!). Are you building a pilot facility before committing to this process and expensive equipment? What is your acid-base process and experience with it like? I'm absolutely fascinated by that process and have fooled around with it quite a bit which is why I'm asking what you've found to work or not. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, mark schofield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark What tests do you mean? Mark __ __ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.me Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: sulfuric acid in two-stage method
its at Home Depot and Ace Hardware- a quart bottle encased in a plastic bag- nasty probably. ANyway one brand is Bull Dozer, they all have different brand names and are apparently of differing purity. You can call the company and find out exactly I believe. I don't remember which other brand I used I tried several and they all worked. I didn't document which they were and it's been a while. I eventually got some nice 96% stuff from a wholesale chemicals supply. Right after I got geared up to start using the 96% on a regular basis (got several gallons of it) I found myself drowning in very nice new-ish waste oil- the boyfriend has a contract with a restaurant that usually produces more oil than we use, so I haven't needed to do acid-base for the last few months. anyway if you're starting out, start with single-stage (the regular recipe that is_) and go to acidbase when you've got some experience, the standard disclaimer I suppose. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Maud Essen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark, which sulfuric acid drain cleaner are you referring to? Thanks. Maud Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Concrete Tanks and PVC.
PVC is considered a noncompatible material, however lots of people use it without imediate problems. The main problem I've had with it is that the PVC valves have plastic handles made of an even more incompatible material- and those valve handles break (crack) with exposure to biodiesel, rather quickly in my experience. I wouldn't use PVC pipes if at all possible (I do use PVC clear/braided tubing, but the way it is degraded by biodiesl is less critical than the way the valves are). Also, another drawback of PVC pipe is that if you decide to change your design, you can't just unscrew it and reconnect as you wish- you have to buy new sections of pipe or fittings and start all over with the glueup connections. So while black iron or galvanised is more expensive than PVC, in the long run, it's reusable endlessly while the PVC is a one-time-use piece of equipment if you are at all likely to need to change the design. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Ken Gotberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All Has anyone tried concrete tanks for biodiesel? Does anyone know of potential problems with going this way? Also, would PVC pipes present a problem? These are very cheap in Indonesia. Best regards, Ken __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopp Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: biodiesel titrations
well, for starters, you COULD have actually found some oil that is just that awful (that it needs at least 15 ml to turn the titration pink). THave you tried this with a samplpe of a different oil? the filtering won't do anything for FFA (free fatty acid- the chemical you're looking for in the titration is called free fatty acid). FFA is soluble in oil and can't be filtered out by ordinary means. Try this with a different oil if you haven't yet, and then report back. you'll probably be asked to give more details about how you're doing the titration so that we can troubleshoot what you're doing if it doestn' work still. the answer to 'how do you know if the WVO is good enough to work with? is that the titration tells you the answer (it tells you about free fatty acids), and then also testing for water by heating up a sample and seeing if you see any boiling or bubbling at 212F is the other.. No matter how bad the oil is you should be able to at least do a titration on it so that's the basics to figure out. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, DougL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have been working on the biodiesel for a few weeks now going step by step from Mike Pelly's recipe on the net that I found. Hoping that you can clarify a few things for me. When we are doing the titration, after we add approx 15 ml of the lye/water solution(as opposed to the 1.5-3 ml as mentioned in the directions)- the mixture is very milky and just turning pink. It is not clear and purple like in the pictures. We are wondering if our WVO is not filtered enough. We boiled it for about a half hour to boil water off and then tried filtering it a little but it is still choclatey brown. How do we know if the WVO is a good batch to work with or not? What is the most effective way to filter it? Any other tips to get us along our way? Doug Loewen (780) 777-7526 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this messag Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Permits required to collect used vegetable oil?
In California there is a permit and it's a department of motor vehicles thing (cal is kind of known for legislating about virtually everything). here you need a WVO hauler's permit which is $75 per vehicle I think. I don't think most other states have bothered to promulgate rules about this stuff- oil hauling is just not all that common of an activity, after all. the permit raises a lot of chuckles from the SVO users- as in, is it 'hauling' if the container you put it into happens to be your fuel tank? anyway it's roundly ignored by homebrewers here, I'm sure someone will get busted someday but that's up there with tax collections- we're just kind of under the radar... . I'm not sure how much police are informed about it either. not sure who else would catch you sine it's a DMV issue here. I heard it used as an excuse by someone who was trying to get into the business of selling filtered SVO- the guy got asked why it ws going to be so expensive (he was going to sell it for $1.50 a gallon which as far as I know hasn't materialised. I kind of doubt the market's there for this!). Maybe he was related to your 'helpful person'- part of his defense was that it's illegal to haul your own WVO, so you should buy it from him instead of gettign it for free etc... and so many people (not all though) are into svo because of the' free' factor that I doubt this argument will work on many of them. anyway we've been thinking of making placards for some of our host restaurants, which either show a group photo of all the biofuelers who use the restaurant's oil for fuel, or at least list their names (as in 'this restaurant supports clean fuels... biodiesel is a blah blah blah basic factoids blah blah... your waste fryer oil biofuels the cars of Ingrid Danny Jeffery Mary and Jennifer or something along those lines. It did of course occur to me not to include last names or contact info in case the WVO hauling permit gets around to actual enforcement at any point. for pennsylvania, call the health inspector for restaurants in your area- that department might be another avenue for such legislation. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, maimino1984 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of the taverns I collect used oil from told me that they were recently told that anyone collecting their used oil had to have a permit. This helpful person then offered to take their oil, for a fee. Since I take it for free, the owner told the guy to take a hike. However, this got me wondering. Does any know if their state requires such a permit. Anyone from Pennsylvania that knows if PA requires such a permit? I just spent a significant amout of quality time at Pennsylvania's DEP website and could find nothing about used fryer oil, but that doesn't Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: phosphoric acid in Foolproof method
Hmm,, I'm not sure how to respond. I assume you're talking about neutralising, as it's rather rare to make biodiesel that doesn't contain some alkaline substances. If you're reading pH 7 in recently-made, unwashed biodiesel you're probably not getting an accurate reading. If you neutralise the soap and catalyst in your fuel using acid, I believe you are then forming some kind of metallic salt. This should probably be washed out with water for various reasons. what way are you reading this pH? I bubblewash, and I now bubblewash with very hot water which gives great results. I also reuse the 2nd/3rd or 4th wash water for other batches- countercurrent wash water reuse. My goal is to reduce the water I need to use. On my last 45-gallon batch of fuel, I used only 10 gallons of new water (last wash) and 20 gallons of water recycled from previous batches. Here are a lot more details about the bubblewashing that I do: http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash2.html I've changed a few details since I wrote that article. I now recommend hot water washes very strongly, I now use 1/4 water to 3/4 biodiesel, and I usually now do only a 1 or 2-hour bubbling on the first wash. I make my own wash stones out of small grindstones or little pieces of sharpening stones because the aquarium ones I've used all disintegrate in biodiesel eventually. Because it's very hot right now here, and I work outside, all the fuel I make is turning out to be good quality and therefore the washes produce no emulsion due to quality and the higher wash temperatures. I;m curious to see how much this changes once it's winter- the colder weather makes a difference in both washing and in processing if temperatures of the processor drop too much (my experience last winter, slightly improved by adding much more insulation!)). good luck! mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Pieter Koole [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi girl-mark-fire, Is there any sense in washing the BD when the pH is around 7 ? I use the single stage base method. If you recommend washing, what is the best way to do so ? Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. - Original Message - From: girl_mark_fire [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 8:08 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re: phosphoric acid in Foolproof method I think that part of the acid advice comes from Terry UK's old, old message that's up at your site- 'add a gloop' I think it says. It was the best info there was at the time (a lot better than the bound-for-emulsion suggestions in Tickell's book which tell you to basically spray water at the stuff, I've been there done that and boy did it confuse me when it went to emulsion). Terry's article is where I first saw bubblewashing instructions and though Aleks gives a different way of doing it, the 'just add a gloop' of acid bit sticks in one's mind I think. I thought that 'just keep adding acid' advice from Terry also really threw me off when I was first starting out with washing, as it didn't really explain emulsion other than to suggest fixing it with acid (with little accounting for different strengths of acid, etc...) Which is primarily why I wrote that article you've got up there. Perhaps Terry's article could use a link to your notes on acid in case people don' t find it by themselves? by the way when you use acids to break emulsion, how much acid do people use, compared to the amount needed to get the water pH to go neutral? It seems to me that it takes a while to see visible results by the 'just add some till emulsion clears' method, so people probably overdo the acid waiting to see results. Just a hunch. Maybe a more scientific approach to that particular problem is in order as well? (I am a very big fan of hot water washing now and dont ' get emulsion at all no matter how vigerous the wash is, in fact I've been experimenting with all the 'emulsifying' wash methods- what Todd calls Frog in a Blender'. I'ts still quite hot outside right now so it doesn't cost me much in energy to heat. In winter it'll be a different story) . So I still don't recommend acidulating as a matter of course, unless you know what you're doing. It can be done right if you do a titration for soap/catalyst first to
[biofuel] Re: phosphoric acid in Foolproof method
I have to say I'm starting to change my mind about acid in the wash, but I think it has to be used a bit more scientifically than just 'adding some' which is how homebrewers seem to use it. Ive messed up a batch while experimenting that way not too long ago, overdid it on the HCL and a serious mess happened (it looked like emulsion and it had a high acid number on a titration (1.5) which wouldn't wash out. I eventually washed the hell out of it, and diluted it with a very high percentage of good fuel before using). So I still don't recommend acidulating as a matter of course, unless you know what you're doing. It can be done right if you do a titration for soap/catalyst first to find out how much acid to use (that HCL/ bromophenol blue indicator titration that Juan described a week or so ago). Industry does it, but they also don't make particularly soapy biodiesel in the first place (because of using new oil or using acid-base ffa pretreatment), so the amount of ffa that is released when they acidulate isn't as large as it could be in a really problematic batch made by one of us... I want to make a comment on acid-base biodiesel, though- the one thing about it is that is different than singlestage biodiesel, is that you absolutely, positively must wash it. Think what you want about washing in general but for this method it's not an option not to wash. Fuel made with acid pretreatment contains water-soluble sodium sulfate formed by the neutralising of the sulfuric acid by some of the catalyst, and until you wash that stuff out, it's sulfur in your tailpipe emissions. For those wondering about how much of a danger it is that some sulfur might be left (I hear this question all the time)- well, the commercial guys who make fuel this way, pass the ASTM test for sulfur, and for various reasons they don't wash their fuel quite as thoroughly as homebrewers, so I assume it must wash out quite well. Note also that you don't have to wash biodiesel made by the Foolproof method any special way. That's how Aleks does it, and that's fine, but once it's settled and the by-product (glycerine) layer at the bottom removed, biodiesel is biodiesel and washing it is washing it, no matter what process you used. So you can decide for yourself what's best fo Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] methoxide mixing was Re: anyone make kits to make biodiesl ?
Chris, Sounds like a very nice system! I'm pretty fond of pump agitation- I think it gets a really good initial mix of methoxide dispersed throughout the oil- but stirred tank reactors can be built cheaper. One thing that confuses people about 'how to build a processor'? is that there are just so many different options depending on the resources available- in your case, the photo mix tank, in my case, a glut of free barrels. I think the most basic 'off the shelf' system has got to be domestic water heaters- right now, a 50gallon electric one is $200 new in the hardware store, and the rest of the parts would run an additional $100- but having access to scrap or free parts can make some interesting combinations possible. My boyfriend has a homebuilt stirred tank reactor which additionally has a small mag-drive pump to mix in the methoxide, to help with better methoxide dispersal. He's got it set up so that the stream of methoxide shoots against the direction that the stirred tank oil rotates (hope this sentence makes sense). He already had these parts from having inherited a 'kit-makers' plastic processor which burned, and I wouldn't recommend doing it this way if designing a system from scratch, but the one you describe sounds really good and simple. KOH in my experience needs almost no agitation to dissolve in methanol. We just did it in front of an admiring crowd of Interns last night- watching the stuff dissolve in about 5 minutes just sitting there (it's low-free fatty acid oil with little KOH needed). After fighting with the 'is this lye dissolved yet?' question for a while, it was nice seeing it juyst magically disappear. (we use the 'Methoxide the Easy Way' system form journeytoforever, which with NaOh can be confusing to beginners sometimes since people seem to have some trouble seeing remaining clumps of lye for some reason) Have you tried your pump-agitated methoxide system using NaOH catalyst? I've always assumed it'd clog some pumps since it can form rather large clumps sometimes, and since with my equipment I either don't mix it mechanically or I use a drum mixer I found, I haven't had a chance to try this theory out. ANyone else using a pump to mix NaOH and methanol? What shape are the photographic chem mix tanks, and what is their usual application in photography? Take care, Mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, CH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mark, sorry for taking so long to repost. The contact cement doesn't have any exposure to the biodiesel or methoxide fumes. The lid, with the laminate on the bottom, extends beyond the silicon gasket. I've got a few fittings drilled into the top of the plywood lid for pumping in methanol, dropping in KOH, etc. I threaded these holes with a 3/4 inch pipe tap and epoxied the fittings in, making sure the epoxy went a bit over the edge of the laminate. So far, so good! I have to thank you for reporting on the failed respirator problem back (I believe) last year. That certainly alerted us to fact that we needed sealed and vented processing equipment. We did try our first large (at that time for us) batch right around that time (30 gallon) without covers, and very quickly found out that this open top thing wasn't going to work, or in fact would kill us off real quick. So, thanks again for reporting that. We too are using pump mixing. I scored two 140 liter stainless steel chemical photographic mixing tanks, that have magnetic driven pumps. We use one for mixing our methanol and KOH, and then pump the mix into our heated processor tank, but in a loop between the tank and mixer tank, mixing for two hours at around 125 deg F. The mixer tank has a jet in the bottom side at about 6 o'clock, facing clockwise, which creates a vortex of sorts. There is a baffle at around 4 o'clock, which breaks up the vortex. The pump takes the fluid from a drain in the bottom. Our larger heated processor tank has a rounded bottom, where we take the fluid from the bottom, then into the inlet of the chemical mixer, leaving about 50 liters in that tank to mix, and pumping the rest back into the big tank, all in a loop. Anyway, it works for us. Seems to make good biodiesel. Chris girl_mark_fire wrote: Hey, that's how I was planning on making a weldless lidded processor when the 'respirators don't work against methanol' info came to light and I had two open barrel processors! I figured, thick plywood lids would be a quick retrofit for the type of stirred-barrel processor a lot of us used. Pop rivets are a great invention. (i instead decommissioned one stirred tank, rebuilt another using a friends' welding skills, and started building the rest of my equipment out of closedhead drums and using pump agitation instead of stirred) How does the contact cement for the plastic laminate hold up to biodiesel contact? Mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, CH [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[biofuel] Re: biodiesel acc. to Tickell question
Hi, there's a vast amount of bad information in Tickell's book at least. It's OK for learning some basics (ie how to make a two-layer split between biodiesel and glycerol byproduct) but please keep in mind that a lot of other info in there is just straight outright wrong. I don't understand why he won't change it- he's reprinted the book three times with the same bad information, it's been a number of years, and he's solicited feedback for the 'new version' for years now on another forum, where people have made lots of great suggestions on things to change. I don't know if he actually makes homebrew biodiesel anymore, but good, scientifically correct information about it doesn't seem to be top priority in the 'work' he does. It's too bad as his info is so widely read. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, desrevermi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi. i went to veggievan.org + read the information that Joshua Tickell has on the website. he claims that his process takes only 2 hours from start to fuel -- any input on that? most other sites i've visited seem to require days to mix and settle and so forth. any opinions on his method? everyone with a dream has to start somewhere, i figure =) ~des desr Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] bromophenol blue mixing question
Thanks for the hydrochloric acid information again. I've got another basic question for the same test (AOCS test for soaps in oil/biodiesel): I had a lab friend pick up some bromophenol blue from their stockroom, and instead of solution, she got a bottle of Bromophenol Blue Sodium Salt the chemical formula is C19H9Br4O5SNa She hadn't seen this product herself before and didn't know how to mix it for use. Does anyone know offhand whether I just mix it up with distilled water like some other dry indicators are mixed? M Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] the ASTM standards was Fwd: Re: Got BioDiesel?
Good, articulate summary from Ben about local production, etc. But I agree with Keith about standards and the fact that they're no barrier to production. I took a class on biodiesel analysis last month. I heard a lot of stories about why certain specifications are in the standards- some of it seems really stupid (like the distillation temperature, which does not apply to biodiesel at all but is a holdover from petrolwum industry and was insisted on by a member of the ASTM committee on the biodiesel standard which operates by concensus. It's a test that's hard to do in-house if I remember correctly, and it's meaningless to biodiesel). It's not something you'll ever 'fail' however. Main thing is that assuming you wash your fuel and all that, it's absolutely easy to meet any of the standards, besides glycerol content. ANd the commercial guys have every bit as much trouble with that one specification as we do. In class we did glycerol analysis of four samples (using enzymatic method for all four, and AOCS (american oil Chemists Society) periodic acid method, and GC for one commercial sample). One of the samples was some really poorly-produced homebrew that my friend made, which she just sort of 'threw together' carelessly without titration or good measurement while in a hurry one day. We'd driven to Iowa on this stuff and had some residue of it in our fuel cans. The result was that, as expected, we didn't pass ASTM spec on total glycerol (we were best on 'free glycerol' due to the extent to which homebrewers wash their fuel rather than the extent to which industry does). But neither did two of the three commercial samples (to the surprise of their owner, in my impression). The only sample which did pass was some isopropyl esters experimental biodiesel which ISU made, which was something they were quite extra-careful in producing (my impression). The other commercial samples: one was a lot higher in total glycerol content than our sloppy homebrew, and another was a very little bit better than ours but quite similar. I don't believe the idea that standards were designed to keep small producers out. I've talked ato a LOT of big and small producers about this at this point, and I think the standard for total glycerol is equally difficult or easy for anyone to achieve. We all complain about it. By the way there's a lab which charges about $500 for the full round of ASTM tests, I'll have to dig out the info on who it is. Free and total glycerol analysis, which is the one you'd be likely to have to repeat a few times if you have trouble with your process, is $89 at Williams lab I believe. The periodic acid method- AOCS wet-chemistry method for total glycerol- seems relatively cheap and easy to do in-house for a small producer's process feedback, though the materials are quite nasty to store, use, and dispose of, so don't do this if you're a homebrewer. mark -Ben Note, however, that the bit about the big guys shutting out the little guys is no longer true, if it ever was. But the myth persists. Mark (Girl Mark) asked me recently to summarize the situation with small-scale producers in the US. It's here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/message/27426 There are no barriers for small producers now other than meeting ASTM spec, which isn't a problem. A lot of would-be small producers are going right ahead. Also I don't think World Energy actually produces anything itself. They're broke Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: De-saturation of Animal Fats for better cold starting
er, attempt to make isopropyl or ethanol biodiesel out of it? (which can give better cold weather properties). You'd retain the excellent cetane and lowered NOx of saturated fats but gain the advantageous cold flow of ethanol or isopropyl esters. This isn't a homebrewer topic (isopropyl) in my understanding, but it's something someone will figure out eventually for industry. Maybe. Like Iowa State. If I recall correctly, some grad student was making isopropyl esters out of black soldier fly larvae oil (animal fats profile if I understand correcctly) . Talk about a weird biodiesel feedstock! soldierfly larvae are one of those maneure-eaters (ie they're useful to livestock industry) whose larvae self-harvest by climbing up the wall of the maneure container when they're ready to pupate. You just stick a chute in the wall, for them to crawl through, into a harvesting container. Permaculture types would just put a chicken coop at the end of the chute and use the entire larva to make chicken, but biodiesel researchers have somehow figured out that if you dry the larvae out and press them like soybeans, they're 40% oil. Yech. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, mark schofield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robin, Todd, Keith and All Has any one thought of de-saturating animal fats to keep them liquid at room temp? The energy content will be less with the evolution of double bonds but cold starting properties would be much better. Regards Mark __ __ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.m Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] silicone continued Re: anyone make kits to make biodiesl ?
No, I use it all the time for gasketing. Just make sure it's not silicone blended with something (acrylic or latex and silicone blends are common). Usualy the RTV silicone says 100% in big letters on most of the product packaging. girl mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Neoteric Biofuels Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will biodiesel attack silicone, Mark? On Monday, September 1, 2003, at 01:17 PM, Keith Addison wrote: Sweet! Just make sure you have a really good lid on it with a GASKET for fumes. Gaskets can be made up out of silicone. mark What do you use as a silicone release agent? I'd've thought si Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: anyone make kits to make biodiesl ?
I actually got all wingnutty late one night and did a photo shoot (the results are also still stuck on my own computer with no removable media or ability to email it otherwise Id send it to you) of me gasketing the co-op's processor this way. I stuck the silicone to the lid, and the plastic was draped around the drum rim. Messy! mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mark Plastic wrap, draped around whatever it is you're trying not to stick to. Tried that, doesn't work very well on a curved rim. Maybe I'll try it again though. Maybe petroleum jelly would work too. Hm, maybe... I'll try it, thanks. Keith mark Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: anyone make kits to make biodiesl ?
Plastic wrap, draped around whatever it is you're trying not to stick to. Maybe petroleum jelly would work too. mark --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sweet! Just make sure you have a really good lid on it with a GASKET for fumes. Gaskets can be made up out of silicone. mark What do you use as a silicone release agent? I'd've thought silicone release agent, but I can't find such a thing here, nor anyone who's heard of it. :-( Thanks! Keith --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Neoteric Biofuels Inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mark, just a mention once again that old-fashioned wringer washers make a good instant processor. We've used our' one for test batches for 3 years, no modifications, no leaks. Just insulated it with some aluminum bubble pack, used a stock tank heater to heat the oil. Legs, bottom drain, agitatorit cost $1 at auction and the 120V stock tank heater was about $5 at a yard sale. Ours had no wringer on it, which was fine, and it is electric, but there are those old gasoline engine powered types for the off-gridders... replace the gas engine with a little Yanmar. ;-) Edward Beg Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
