Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[Mike Weaver]

I grew up eating it - with raw egg and onion - I only eat grass-fed beef 
if any.

bob allen wrote:

>In Montreal this summer I tried steak tartar, as it was on the menu in 
>several resturants.  It was served as  a little volcano of ground beef, 
>with a raw egg in the  cone. 
>
>Mike Weaver wrote:
>  
>
>>Actually, I hate milk and am very allergic to it.  I like cheese but 
>>rarely eat it.  In Europe I prefer raw sheep's milk.
>>I read anecdotally that that both raw (grass-fed) milk and beef are much 
>>better than cooked.  I don't eat much meat at all.
>>I sometimes buy sushi grade tuna and eat it raw to get my mercury 
>>allowance ;-)
>>
>>D. Mindock wrote:
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>>Hi Mike,
>>>  I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When
>>>milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful
>>>to the body. So those drinking less of the bad milk in the
>>>Harvard study would actually be better off.
>>> Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic.
>>>Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas
>>>drink their milk cultured, not straight up.
>>>Peace, D. Mindock
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message - 
>>>From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: 
>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>>>WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>>From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>>Caveat:  No proof other than what I've read over the years.
>>>>
>>>>It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are
>>>>in large part due to environment/lifestyle.  In the third world,
>>>>disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and
>>>>adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the
>>>>diseaeses of affluence:  diabetis being the one that comes to mind,
>>>>along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood
>>>>pressure, strokes and so on.  Smoking is another factor.
>>>>
>>>>Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website:
>>>>
>>>>In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't
>>>>actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example,
>>>>in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female
>>>>nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were
>>>>at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who
>>>>drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3
>>>><http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references>)
>>>>Other studies have found similar results.
>>>>
>>>>It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop "a disease" if
>>>>they don't eat the milk of another species.  Dogs don't need cat milk.
>>>>
>>>>bob allen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Howdy Terry,
>>>>>
>>>>>Terry Dyck wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>>HI Bob,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, 
>>>>>>Diabetes,
>>>>>>Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>oh really, and your source for these "facts" is?  are the data age
>>>>>adjusted, etc. and just what "other" ailments are included.  This is the
>>>>>issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad
>>>>>statements as fact, without  little or no support.  So give me
>>>>>reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions.
>>>>>
>>>>>or how about just statistic at a time to discuss.   How about age
>>>>>adjusted cancer rates?  (a

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

In Montreal this summer I tried steak tartar, as it was on the menu in 
several resturants.  It was served as  a little volcano of ground beef, 
with a raw egg in the  cone. 

Mike Weaver wrote:
> Actually, I hate milk and am very allergic to it.  I like cheese but 
> rarely eat it.  In Europe I prefer raw sheep's milk.
> I read anecdotally that that both raw (grass-fed) milk and beef are much 
> better than cooked.  I don't eat much meat at all.
> I sometimes buy sushi grade tuna and eat it raw to get my mercury 
> allowance ;-)
>
> D. Mindock wrote:
>
>   
>> Hi Mike,
>>   I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When
>> milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful
>> to the body. So those drinking less of the bad milk in the
>> Harvard study would actually be better off.
>>  Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic.
>> Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas
>> drink their milk cultured, not straight up.
>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>> >From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept.
>> 
>>> Caveat:  No proof other than what I've read over the years.
>>>
>>> It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are
>>> in large part due to environment/lifestyle.  In the third world,
>>> disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and
>>> adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the
>>> diseaeses of affluence:  diabetis being the one that comes to mind,
>>> along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood
>>> pressure, strokes and so on.  Smoking is another factor.
>>>
>>> Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website:
>>>
>>> In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't
>>> actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example,
>>> in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female
>>> nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were
>>> at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who
>>> drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3
>>> <http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references>)
>>> Other studies have found similar results.
>>>
>>> It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop "a disease" if
>>> they don't eat the milk of another species.  Dogs don't need cat milk.
>>>
>>> bob allen wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>> Howdy Terry,
>>>>
>>>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>> HI Bob,
>>>>>
>>>>> The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, 
>>>>> Diabetes,
>>>>> Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>> oh really, and your source for these "facts" is?  are the data age
>>>> adjusted, etc. and just what "other" ailments are included.  This is the
>>>> issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad
>>>> statements as fact, without  little or no support.  So give me
>>>> reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions.
>>>>
>>>> or how about just statistic at a time to discuss.   How about age
>>>> adjusted cancer rates?  (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is
>>>> essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to
>>>> get cancer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  show me the data please.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>> On the other hand
>>>>> there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called 
>>>>> Hunzaland
>>>>> that is an almost disease free area.
>>>>>
>>&

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[Mike Weaver]

Actually, I hate milk and am very allergic to it.  I like cheese but 
rarely eat it.  In Europe I prefer raw sheep's milk.
I read anecdotally that that both raw (grass-fed) milk and beef are much 
better than cooked.  I don't eat much meat at all.
I sometimes buy sushi grade tuna and eat it raw to get my mercury 
allowance ;-)

D. Mindock wrote:

>Hi Mike,
>   I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When
>milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful
>to the body. So those drinking less of the bad milk in the
>Harvard study would actually be better off.
>  Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic.
>Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas
>drink their milk cultured, not straight up.
>Peace, D. Mindock
>
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>
>
>  
>
>>From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept.
>>
>>Caveat:  No proof other than what I've read over the years.
>>
>>It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are
>>in large part due to environment/lifestyle.  In the third world,
>>disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and
>>adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the
>>diseaeses of affluence:  diabetis being the one that comes to mind,
>>along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood
>>pressure, strokes and so on.  Smoking is another factor.
>>
>>Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website:
>>
>>In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't
>>actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example,
>>in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female
>>nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were
>>at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who
>>drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3
>><http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references>)
>>Other studies have found similar results.
>>
>>It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop "a disease" if
>>they don't eat the milk of another species.  Dogs don't need cat milk.
>>
>>bob allen wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Howdy Terry,
>>>
>>>Terry Dyck wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>>HI Bob,
>>>>
>>>>The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, 
>>>>Diabetes,
>>>>Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>oh really, and your source for these "facts" is?  are the data age
>>>adjusted, etc. and just what "other" ailments are included.  This is the
>>>issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad
>>>statements as fact, without  little or no support.  So give me
>>>reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions.
>>>
>>>or how about just statistic at a time to discuss.   How about age
>>>adjusted cancer rates?  (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is
>>>essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to
>>>get cancer.
>>>
>>>
>>>  show me the data please.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>> On the other hand
>>>>there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called 
>>>>Hunzaland
>>>>that is an almost disease free area.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I have heard this canard before.  I googled hunzaland and about the only
>>>thing I got were people hawking their particular "cure"
>>>
>>>  The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory
>>>   http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm
>>>
>>>or how about 160+ year olds
>>>http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm
>>>
>>>do really believe that?  really, you don't think someone could be less
>>>than forthright to make a point about a product the promote?
>>>
>>>or maybe it's the magnetized water
>>>http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm
>>&

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

D. Mindock wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When
> milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful
> to the body. So those drinking less of the bad milk in the
> Harvard study would actually be better off.
>   Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic.
>   
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2006/10/13/food/0_03_1110_12_06.txt

Raw organic milk that sickened California children now OK

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003280686_spinach29m.html

Two children have been sickened in another episode of E. coli infection, 
this time from drinking raw milk from a Whatcom County dairy.

A 5-year-old boy from Issaquah was still hospitalized with the illness 
Thursday, while an 8-year-old girl from Snohomish County was recovering 
at home, said state health officials and a spokeswoman for a store that 
sold the milk.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/index.php?feed=Science&article=UPI-1-20061013-01412200-bc-britain-tb.xml
 



  Small TB outbreak traced to raw milk






> Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas
> drink their milk cultured, not straight up.
> Peace, D. Mindock
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>
>
>   
>> From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept.
>>
>> Caveat:  No proof other than what I've read over the years.
>>
>> It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are
>> in large part due to environment/lifestyle.  In the third world,
>> disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and
>> adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the
>> diseaeses of affluence:  diabetis being the one that comes to mind,
>> along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood
>> pressure, strokes and so on.  Smoking is another factor.
>>
>> Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website:
>>
>> In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't
>> actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example,
>> in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female
>> nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were
>> at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who
>> drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3
>> <http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references>)
>> Other studies have found similar results.
>>
>> It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop "a disease" if
>> they don't eat the milk of another species.  Dogs don't need cat milk.
>>
>> bob allen wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> Howdy Terry,
>>>
>>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>> HI Bob,
>>>>
>>>> The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, 
>>>> Diabetes,
>>>> Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> oh really, and your source for these "facts" is?  are the data age
>>> adjusted, etc. and just what "other" ailments are included.  This is the
>>> issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad
>>> statements as fact, without  little or no support.  So give me
>>> reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions.
>>>
>>> or how about just statistic at a time to discuss.   How about age
>>> adjusted cancer rates?  (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is
>>> essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to
>>> get cancer.
>>>
>>>
>>>   show me the data please.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>>  On the other hand
>>>> there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called 
>>>> Hunzaland
>>>> that is an almost disease free area.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> I have heard this canard before.  I googled hunzaland and about the only
>>> thing I got were people hawking their particular "cure"
>>>
>>>   The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory
>>>http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm
>>>
>>> o

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

D. Mindock wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When
> milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful
> to the body.
  Can you explain how this happens?



>  So those drinking less of the bad milk in the
> Harvard study would actually be better off.
>   Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic.
> Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas
> drink their milk cultured, not straight up.
> Peace, D. Mindock
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>
>
>   
>> From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept.
>>
>> Caveat:  No proof other than what I've read over the years.
>>
>> It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are
>> in large part due to environment/lifestyle.  In the third world,
>> disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and
>> adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the
>> diseaeses of affluence:  diabetis being the one that comes to mind,
>> along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood
>> pressure, strokes and so on.  Smoking is another factor.
>>
>> Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website:
>>
>> In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't
>> actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example,
>> in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female
>> nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were
>> at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who
>> drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3
>> <http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references>)
>> Other studies have found similar results.
>>
>> It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop "a disease" if
>> they don't eat the milk of another species.  Dogs don't need cat milk.
>>
>> bob allen wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> Howdy Terry,
>>>
>>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>> HI Bob,
>>>>
>>>> The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, 
>>>> Diabetes,
>>>> Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> oh really, and your source for these "facts" is?  are the data age
>>> adjusted, etc. and just what "other" ailments are included.  This is the
>>> issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad
>>> statements as fact, without  little or no support.  So give me
>>> reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions.
>>>
>>> or how about just statistic at a time to discuss.   How about age
>>> adjusted cancer rates?  (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is
>>> essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to
>>> get cancer.
>>>
>>>
>>>   show me the data please.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>>  On the other hand
>>>> there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called 
>>>> Hunzaland
>>>> that is an almost disease free area.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> I have heard this canard before.  I googled hunzaland and about the only
>>> thing I got were people hawking their particular "cure"
>>>
>>>   The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory
>>>http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm
>>>
>>> or how about 160+ year olds
>>> http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm
>>>
>>> do really believe that?  really, you don't think someone could be less
>>> than forthright to make a point about a product the promote?
>>>
>>> or maybe it's the magnetized water
>>> http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>> A pure organic food diet and almost no
>>>> pollution could be the reason for people having good health.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>> or it could all be 

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[D. Mindock]

Hi Mike,
   I think Weston Price would say to drink raw milk. When
milk is pastuerized and homogenized, it becomes harmful
to the body. So those drinking less of the bad milk in the
Harvard study would actually be better off.
  Myself, I don't drink milk unless I can get it raw and organic.
Also, even better, is to add kefir culture to it. I think the Hunzas
drink their milk cultured, not straight up.
Peace, D. Mindock


- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
WasTestimonials as Evidence)


> From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept.
>
> Caveat:  No proof other than what I've read over the years.
>
> It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are
> in large part due to environment/lifestyle.  In the third world,
> disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and
> adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the
> diseaeses of affluence:  diabetis being the one that comes to mind,
> along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood
> pressure, strokes and so on.  Smoking is another factor.
>
> Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website:
>
> In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't
> actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example,
> in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female
> nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were
> at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who
> drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3
> <http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references>)
> Other studies have found similar results.
>
> It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop "a disease" if
> they don't eat the milk of another species.  Dogs don't need cat milk.
>
> bob allen wrote:
>
>>Howdy Terry,
>>
>>Terry Dyck wrote:
>>
>>
>>>HI Bob,
>>>
>>>The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, 
>>>Diabetes,
>>>Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>oh really, and your source for these "facts" is?  are the data age
>>adjusted, etc. and just what "other" ailments are included.  This is the
>>issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad
>>statements as fact, without  little or no support.  So give me
>>reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions.
>>
>>or how about just statistic at a time to discuss.   How about age
>>adjusted cancer rates?  (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is
>>essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to
>>get cancer.
>>
>>
>>   show me the data please.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>  On the other hand
>>>there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called 
>>>Hunzaland
>>>that is an almost disease free area.
>>>
>>>
>>I have heard this canard before.  I googled hunzaland and about the only
>>thing I got were people hawking their particular "cure"
>>
>>   The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory
>>http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm
>>
>>or how about 160+ year olds
>>http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm
>>
>>do really believe that?  really, you don't think someone could be less
>>than forthright to make a point about a product the promote?
>>
>>or maybe it's the magnetized water
>>http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>> A pure organic food diet and almost no
>>>pollution could be the reason for people having good health.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better
>>documentation?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>--
>>>>Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
>>>>=
>>>>The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in
>>>>moral philosophy; that is,
>>>>the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG
>>>>


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Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[D. Mindock]

Also the Hunzas practice yoga, at least they used to. I wonder how they're 
doing
these days as the ways of the western world spread everywhere. The way of
life of the Hunzas and other long lived peoples show us a healthier way to 
live.
I don't think we need to abandon technology, but we need to realize its 
limitations
to giving us happier lives. IMO, we have too much dependence on technology
with not enough wisdom used in its application. It seems nowadays technology 
as practised
creates as many problems as it solves, thus we're getting nowhere wrt human
fulfillment and evolution. Keith has the right idea, an ancient idea--stay 
close to the land and nature.
Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
WasTestimonials as Evidence)


> Hi Bob
>
> Nutrition and Health, by Sir Robert McCarrison -- McCarrison's Cantor
> Lectures, to the Royal Society of Arts in 1936, Faber and Faber,
> London, 1953. After joining the Indian Medical Service in 1901 Robert
> McCarrison spent his early years in the Northern Frontier region
> investigating the legendary Hunza tribe, mountain people who lived to
> a vigorous old age and never got sick. He discovered why, and proved
> it in a series of experiments at the Nutrition Research Laboratories
> at Coonoor in India. It was the food they ate -- and, just as
> important, not just what food, but how it was grown. Unless it was
> grown in fertile soil, it was not health-giving food. Most doctors
> study disease; McCarrison had the rare opportunity to study health
> instead, as well as the lack of health among other races in the
> southern part of India subsisting on a poor diet. His findings put
> the fledgling science of nutrition on a whole new footing.
> McCarrison's Cantor Lectures describe his experiments as Director of
> Nutrition Research in India, the results, and the implications for
> health and nutrition. With photographs. Full text online at the Small
> Farms Library.
> http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/McC/McCToC.html
>
> The Wheel of Health by G.T. Wrench, Daniel, 1938
> Dr. Wrench's classic exploration of the Hunza, a mountain people
> renowned for their longevity and vigor. By approaching the problem of
> disease from the angle of a study of a perfectly healthy people,
> Wrench shows that health depends on environmental wholeness, of which
> a whole diet is the vital factor, and that a whole diet means not
> only the right sorts of foods, but their right cultivation as well.
> An examination of the agricultural technique of the most successful
> cultivators of East and West shows what an essential part of the
> wheel of health -- from man to soil, from soil to plant, from plant
> to man -- is the farmer's renewal and protection of the soil. Full
> text online.
> http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Wrench_WoH/WoHToC.html
>
> Lots more in the Small Farms Library if you care to look.
> http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html
> Small Farms Library - Journey to Forever
>
> Try Price, or Cleave - you'll HATE it! LOL! Especially since it's real 
> science.
>
> Keith
>
>
>>Howdy Terry,
>>
>>Terry Dyck wrote:
>> > HI Bob,
>> >
>> > The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, 
>> > Diabetes,
>> > Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world.
>>
>>oh really, and your source for these "facts" is?  are the data age
>>adjusted, etc. and just what "other" ailments are included.  This is the
>>issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad
>>statements as fact, without  little or no support.  So give me
>>reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions.
>>
>>or how about just statistic at a time to discuss.   How about age
>>adjusted cancer rates?  (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is
>>essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to
>>get cancer.
>>
>>
>>   show me the data please.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >   On the other hand
>> > there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called 
>> > Hunzaland
>> > that is an almost disease free area.
>>I have heard this canard before.  I googled hunzaland and about the only
>>thing I got were people hawking their particular "cure"
>>
>>   The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory
>>http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm
>>
>>or how about 160+ year olds
>&g

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[JAMES PHELPS]

Mike, Keith,

Amen.

Ps. We all form opinions based on our experiences. These often lead to folly 
but just as often they can steer us in a good direction as well. One of the 
reasons we have so little hard evidence on many of these matters is there 
are only a few studies on health and nutrition vs. the reams done on 
sickness. (as Keith mentioned) I must agree that testimonials are worthless 
when sources are narrow, but when they come from voluntary non commercial 
separate sources from all over the world,- well - Where there is smoke is 
there not often Fire?

My best to all,

Jim


- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
WasTestimonials as Evidence)


> From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept.
>
> Caveat:  No proof other than what I've read over the years.
>
> It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are
> in large part due to environment/lifestyle.  In the third world,
> disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and
> adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the
> diseaeses of affluence:  diabetis being the one that comes to mind,
> along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood
> pressure, strokes and so on.  Smoking is another factor.
>
> Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website:
>
> In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't
> actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example,
> in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female
> nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were
> at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who
> drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3
> <http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium.html#references>)
> Other studies have found similar results.
>
> It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop "a disease" if
> they don't eat the milk of another species.  Dogs don't need cat milk.
>
> bob allen wrote:
>
> >Howdy Terry,
> >
> >Terry Dyck wrote:
> >
> >
> >>HI Bob,
> >>
> >>The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, 
> >>Diabetes,
> >>Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >oh really, and your source for these "facts" is?  are the data age
> >adjusted, etc. and just what "other" ailments are included.  This is the
> >issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad
> >statements as fact, without  little or no support.  So give me
> >reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions.
> >
> >or how about just statistic at a time to discuss.   How about age
> >adjusted cancer rates?  (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is
> >essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to
> >get cancer.
> >
> >
> >   show me the data please.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>  On the other hand
> >>there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called 
> >>Hunzaland
> >>that is an almost disease free area.
> >>
> >>
> >I have heard this canard before.  I googled hunzaland and about the only
> >thing I got were people hawking their particular "cure"
> >
> >   The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory
> >http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm
> >
> >or how about 160+ year olds
> >http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm
> >
> >do really believe that?  really, you don't think someone could be less
> >than forthright to make a point about a product the promote?
> >
> >or maybe it's the magnetized water
> >http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >> A pure organic food diet and almost no
> >>pollution could be the reason for people having good health.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better
> >documentation?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>>--
> >>>Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
> >>>=
> >>>The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in
> >>>moral philosophy; that is,
> >>>the search for a superior moral 

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[Mike Weaver]

 From the can't-help-but-stick-my-toe-in dept.

Caveat:  No proof other than what I've read over the years.

It has always seemed to me that the maladies that people suffer from are 
in large part due to environment/lifestyle.  In the third world,
disease is far more likely to be as a result of the lack of food and 
adequate nutrition, wheras in the developed world, we suffer from the 
diseaeses of affluence:  diabetis being the one that comes to mind, 
along with obesity-related ailments such as heart disease, high blood 
pressure, strokes and so on.  Smoking is another factor.

Another interesting item, from Harvard University's website:

In particular, these studies suggest that high calcium intake doesn't 
actually appear to lower a person's risk for osteoporosis. For example, 
in the large Harvard studies of male health professionals and female 
nurses, individuals who drank one glass of milk (or less) per week were 
at no greater risk of breaking a hip or forearm than were those who 
drank two or more glasses per week.(2, 3 
) 
Other studies have found similar results.

It is odd human beings are the only animal that develop "a disease" if 
they don't eat the milk of another species.  Dogs don't need cat milk.

bob allen wrote:

>Howdy Terry,
>
>Terry Dyck wrote:
>  
>
>>HI Bob,
>>
>>The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, 
>>Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world.
>>
>>
>
>oh really, and your source for these "facts" is?  are the data age 
>adjusted, etc. and just what "other" ailments are included.  This is the 
>issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad 
>statements as fact, without  little or no support.  So give me  
>reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. 
>
>or how about just statistic at a time to discuss.   How about age 
>adjusted cancer rates?  (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is 
>essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to 
>get cancer. 
>
>
>   show me the data please.
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>>  On the other hand 
>>there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland 
>>that is an almost disease free area.
>>
>>
>I have heard this canard before.  I googled hunzaland and about the only 
>thing I got were people hawking their particular "cure" 
>
>   The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory
>http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm
>
>or how about 160+ year olds
>http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm
>
>do really believe that?  really, you don't think someone could be less 
>than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? 
>
>or maybe it's the magnetized water
>http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm
>
>  
>
>> A pure organic food diet and almost no 
>>pollution could be the reason for people having good health.
>>  
>>
>>
>or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better 
>documentation? 
>
>
>  
>
>>>--
>>>Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
>>>=
>>>The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in 
>>>moral philosophy; that is,
>>>the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG
>>>
>>>___
>>>Biofuel mailing list
>>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>>
>>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>>
>>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>>>messages):
>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>_
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>
>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>  
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[Keith Addison]

Hi Bob

Nutrition and Health, by Sir Robert McCarrison -- McCarrison's Cantor 
Lectures, to the Royal Society of Arts in 1936, Faber and Faber, 
London, 1953. After joining the Indian Medical Service in 1901 Robert 
McCarrison spent his early years in the Northern Frontier region 
investigating the legendary Hunza tribe, mountain people who lived to 
a vigorous old age and never got sick. He discovered why, and proved 
it in a series of experiments at the Nutrition Research Laboratories 
at Coonoor in India. It was the food they ate -- and, just as 
important, not just what food, but how it was grown. Unless it was 
grown in fertile soil, it was not health-giving food. Most doctors 
study disease; McCarrison had the rare opportunity to study health 
instead, as well as the lack of health among other races in the 
southern part of India subsisting on a poor diet. His findings put 
the fledgling science of nutrition on a whole new footing. 
McCarrison's Cantor Lectures describe his experiments as Director of 
Nutrition Research in India, the results, and the implications for 
health and nutrition. With photographs. Full text online at the Small 
Farms Library.
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/McC/McCToC.html

The Wheel of Health by G.T. Wrench, Daniel, 1938
Dr. Wrench's classic exploration of the Hunza, a mountain people 
renowned for their longevity and vigor. By approaching the problem of 
disease from the angle of a study of a perfectly healthy people, 
Wrench shows that health depends on environmental wholeness, of which 
a whole diet is the vital factor, and that a whole diet means not 
only the right sorts of foods, but their right cultivation as well. 
An examination of the agricultural technique of the most successful 
cultivators of East and West shows what an essential part of the 
wheel of health -- from man to soil, from soil to plant, from plant 
to man -- is the farmer's renewal and protection of the soil. Full 
text online. 
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Wrench_WoH/WoHToC.html

Lots more in the Small Farms Library if you care to look.
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html
Small Farms Library - Journey to Forever

Try Price, or Cleave - you'll HATE it! LOL! Especially since it's real science.

Keith


>Howdy Terry,
>
>Terry Dyck wrote:
> > HI Bob,
> >
> > The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes,
> > Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world.
>
>oh really, and your source for these "facts" is?  are the data age
>adjusted, etc. and just what "other" ailments are included.  This is the
>issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad
>statements as fact, without  little or no support.  So give me
>reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions.
>
>or how about just statistic at a time to discuss.   How about age
>adjusted cancer rates?  (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is
>essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to
>get cancer.
>
>
>   show me the data please.
>
>
>
>
> >   On the other hand
> > there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland
> > that is an almost disease free area.
>I have heard this canard before.  I googled hunzaland and about the only
>thing I got were people hawking their particular "cure"
>
>   The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory
>http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm
>
>or how about 160+ year olds
>http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm
>
>do really believe that?  really, you don't think someone could be less
>than forthright to make a point about a product the promote?
>
>or maybe it's the magnetized water
>http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm
>
> >  A pure organic food diet and almost no
> > pollution could be the reason for people having good health.
> >
>or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better
>documentation?
>
>
> >> --
> >> Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
> >> =
> >> The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in
> >> moral philosophy; that is,
> >> the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG


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Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

Howdy Terry,

Terry Dyck wrote:
> HI Bob,
>
> The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, 
> Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world.

oh really, and your source for these "facts" is?  are the data age 
adjusted, etc. and just what "other" ailments are included.  This is the 
issue I have with you and others, you make what I feel are overly broad 
statements as fact, without  little or no support.  So give me  
reference or two so I can draw my own conclusions. 

or how about just statistic at a time to discuss.   How about age 
adjusted cancer rates?  (age adjusting is necessary as cancer is 
essentially inevitable, the longer you live the more likely you are to 
get cancer. 


   show me the data please.




>   On the other hand 
> there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland 
> that is an almost disease free area.
I have heard this canard before.  I googled hunzaland and about the only 
thing I got were people hawking their particular "cure" 

   The Apricot Kernel Anti-Cancer Theory
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/land_of_hunza.htm

or how about 160+ year olds
http://www.arthritis-nature-cure.com/people.htm

do really believe that?  really, you don't think someone could be less 
than forthright to make a point about a product the promote? 

or maybe it's the magnetized water
http://www.stopcancer.com/magnetpHFoundation2.htm

>  A pure organic food diet and almost no 
> pollution could be the reason for people having good health.
>   
or it could all be a bunch of hype. How do we know with out better 
documentation? 


>> --
>> Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob
>> =
>> The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in 
>> moral philosophy; that is,
>> the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness  JKG
>>
>> ___
>> Biofuel mailing list
>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>> messages):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>> 
>
> _
>
>   



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Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[Terry Dyck]

HI Bob,

The Western world has the highest rate of Cancer, Heart disease, Diabetes, 
Respiratory problems and other ailments in the world.  On the other hand 
there is a valley in the middle of the Himalayan mountains called Hunzaland 
that is an almost disease free area.  A pure organic food diet and almost no 
pollution could be the reason for people having good health.

Terry Dyck


>From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 16:20:36 -0500
>
>Keith Addison wrote:
> > The main edifice of "conventional" allopathic (cure-the-symptom)
> > so-called Western medicine, ie industrialised medicine, is all the
> > hospitals.
>
>interesting term allopath, none of which as far as I am aware use the term. 
>  It was coined by
>Hahnemann, the founder of the most ridiculous counter-intuitive form of 
>"medicine" , homeopathy.
>But that is another discussion.
>
>
> >
> > Occupying very many of those hospital beds are patients suffering
> > from iatrogenic illnesses, that is sickness caused by medical
> > treatment (225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes -
> > JAMA. 2000 Jul 26;284(4):483-5).
>
>nocosomial  infections are not surprising considering sick people are in 
>the hospital.  Could more
>be done to control secondary infections, sure. more space, more equipment, 
>more personnel, and more
>money. And I doubt don't that there are yeast infections due to over 
>prescribing of antibacterials.
>   But whose fault? At least here in the US many, many folks expect some 
>medicine even if it is
>called for or not.
>
>
>   Or hospital visits could be reduced by diet and lifestyle modifications, 
>but whose responsibility
>is that?  The patient of course.  Regardless, if my appendix ruptures then 
>I will take my chances
>with western medicine and a hospital.
>
>
>I don't disagree with your general position. But I don't see how replacing 
>western medicine with
>homeopathic nonsense or "high colonics" a la naturopathy  would be the way 
>to solve the problem.
>
>
>   Nonetheless a fairly august medical
> > practitioner once got angry with my questions and shouted: "Of COURSE
> > we're more healthy now, we've got so many more hospital beds!" LOL!
> >
> > At another time, at a meeting of the steering committee of a primary
> > health care group working on development projects in 3rd World
> > countries, I mentioned that there's more to health than just the
> > absence of disease. There was a polite pause, one of the doctors
> > said, "Of course there is," and the discussion continued as if I
> > hadn't said anything.
> >
> > The "Western" doctor who shouted at me didn't know what I was talking
> > about when I told him that.
> >
> > What's the difference? The glaring difference is that there's no
> > market in 3rd World people who earn less than $2 a day, it's just not
> > worth all the spin and corruption. There's no money in health anyway,
> > maintaining disease is much more profitable, whether you're Big
> > Pharma or a GP. Twenty-five years ago after I first started working
> > with organic growing, a young doctor who was working with me got the
> > idea that eating properly grown food might have something to do with
> > it. He was working in a fishing community, quite poor people, and got
> > very enthusiastic about the success he was having with this approach
> > (nothing new - see, eg, The Medical Testament
> > <http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#medtest>). But later
> > he complained that healthy patients didn't visit the doctor very
> > often. Eventually he moved back to the city and became a surgeon.
> >
> > Every health education council I've talked to has stressed that
> > health maintenance is primarily the patient's responsibility. But the
> > patients are seduced by the quick "cure" that makes the symptom go
> > away, and who needs more responsibility anyway? That's what doctors
> > are for.
> >
> > Especially in the industrialised countries, millions of people now
> > suffer from systemic candida albicans yeast infections, and not many
> > of them can get effective medical treatment for it. They're quite
> > likely to be referred to a psychiatrist instead because when they
> > report the large variety of symptoms candid

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

Terry Dyck wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> This is a tough call; do I believe your website, which I know nothing about 
> or do I consider the website to be similar to some rumors 

you needn't trust any web site.  Federal convictions are a matter of public 
record. as are fines and 
fda cease and desist orders. He is a con(vict) and a con man. plain and simple.
*Criminal history*

1990: Larceny & prison
Trudeau's legal problems are long-standing. In 1990, he posed as a doctor in 
order to deposit 
$80,000 in false checks, and in 1991 he pled guilty to larceny after he had 
provided false 
information to obtain credit cards which he used for his own purposes. He spent 
two years in prison 
because of this conviction.(Choi, 2005) Most people in opposition to Trudeau's 
claims point to this 
felony conviction as a good reason not to trust him.

1996: SEC
Trudeau rebounded, making a small fortune working for Nutrition For Life, a 
multi-level marketing 
program. However, in 1996, his recruitment practices ran afoul of the states of 
Illinois and 
Michigan, as well as the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. Michigan went 
so far as to forbid 
him from operating in the state.

1998: FTC fine
Then, in 1998, he was forced to pay $500,000 in consumer redress to the Federal 
Trade Commission 
(FTC), relating to six infomercials he had produced and which the FTC 
determined he had made false 
or misleading claims.

2004: FTC ban, fines
More recently, on September 7, 2004, the FTC announced that they were banning 
Trudeau from 
"appearing in, producing, or disseminating any future infomercials that 
advertise any type of 
product" because he repeatedly made "fraudulent" and "unsubstantiated" claims 
in them. [1] In 
addition, Trudeau paid $500,000 in cash and transferred ownership of a luxury 
vehicle and a piece of 
residential property in California to satisfy a $2 million fine against him. 
Lydia Parnes, Acting 
Director of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection stated that "This ban is 
meant to shut down an 
infomercial empire that has misled American consumers for years." The charges 
arose from work 
Trudeau did on an infomercial featuring Bob Barefoot and British actress Debbie 
Flett advertising 
coral calcium, a dietary supplement. However, Trudeau's infomercial advertising 
his book still airs 
on a daily basis because he is still allowed to promote publications. Airings 
of these infomercials 
in 2005 have included a guest appearance by Tammy Faye Bakker.







started by people
> who thought that the famous environmentalist, Dr. David Suzuki, was too 
> dangerous for the commercial world.  The rumors about Suzuki,  were not good 
> for the environment but they gave amunition to people who were non 
> environmental types.  Kevin Trudeau, I am sure, has made some enemies with 
> the Pharmaceutical Corporations and therefore could be a target.
> 
> Terry Dyck
> 
> 
>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:32:09 -0500
>>
>> no, Terry, you need to look "outside the book"  he went to prison for
>> larceny- he stole money from people. The only big company he has headed
>> was is own larcenous enterprises.
>>
>>   http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0826051trudeau1.html
>>
>>
>> " he was 28 when he copped an April 1991 plea to two counts of credit
>> card fraud. Trudeau's indictment, a copy of which you'll find below, was
>> filed in Massachusetts and charged him with using "unauthorized access
>> devices" to defraud American Express out of $122,735.68 (he also
>> swindled about five grand from several banks, including Chemical and
>> Citibank). Over five years, Trudeau, now 42, used false names and social
>> security numbers to secure charge cards which he then ferociously milked.
>>
>>   Trudeau was sentenced to two years in prison and ordered to make
>> restitution on his credit card schemes. After serving 21 months in Uncle
>> Sam's custody, Trudeau was released in August 1993 and placed on two
>> years probation.
>>
>>
>> did you happen to look at any of the reports from individuals at
>> ripoffreport.com   ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>> Kevin Trudeau went to prison because he was caught doing corrupt work 
>> for
>>> Pharmacitical corporations.  That info is in his book.
>>>
>>> Terry Dyck
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>&

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

t; drug was unlikely to become available as it wasn't worth 
> commercialising it because cabbages were too common. These days I 
> suppose we'd suddenly find that cabbages had become the exclusive 
> property of Pfizer or Bayer.
> 
> There's something rollickingly insane about what happens to people 
> who eat the "food" approved by the Food and Drugs Administration, and 
> then they get the approved "healthcare" too (eg the "Seven Deadly 
> Drugs" approved by the FDA). It's become a very Orwellian word, 
> healthcare has. Things are indeed much as D. describes them, sad to 
> say.
> 
> Best
> 
> Keith
> 
> 
> 
>> Bob,
>>   Your negativity is showing wrt alt medicine. You imply that once one is
>> convicted
>> of anything, then they're incapable of speaking the truth on anything. I am
>> more forgiving,
>> having realized my own numerous faults.
>>There are many studies on alt therapies and they have been shown to be
>> safe
>> and effective. If you visit the Life Extension Foundation website you can
>> see many studies
>> there. Why are you so down on alt medicine? Especially when your beloved Big
>> Pharma
>> takes what they think are the active elements of a plant, like willow, and
>> then derives a
>> drug from it. The point is that BP was led to this plant by its being used
>> as medicine for
>> hundreds of years. You could say that Big Pharma is validating an herb by
>> this approach.
>>  You seem to be firmly in the grasp of western medicine with its high tech
>> approach
>> to human ailments. It treats the body as a type of robot and, imo, that's a
>> fundamental error.
>> Not only that, but they insist that only their way is "science" and we that
>> disagree are
>> goofy. Worse, they (Big Pharma) conspire to take away most of the herbs,
>> vitamins, and supplements
>> on the shelves in today's health food store. That is the aim of Codex
>> Alimentarius. Of
>> course, it is to be done to "protect" the citizens of America, Australia,
>> England, Germany,
>> etc. It will be done with no public input and to "harmonize" our trade with
>> all of our
>> trade partners. So, instead of harmonizing upwards in access to potent
>> herbs, supplements,
>> vitamins, ets., we will all be dragged down to near RDA (recommmended daily
>> allowance)
>> levels with a lot of stuff simply disappearing.
>>   One example of alt medicine in action:
>> http://www.cancerinform.org/aburzinterview.html
>> Dr Burzynski uses antineoplastins to cure a lot of people who are in
>> advanced stages
>> of cancer. He has been thoroughly harassed in spite of his successes by a
>> bully FDA.
>> Dr Julian Whitaker stuck up for him, mounting petition campaigns. It worked,
>> it seems
>> that today the FDA is leaving him be. Cancer is a huge business and there
>> little incentive
>> to find real cures that are safe and effective. Burzynski represents a
>> threat but he held
>> his ground. My hat is off to him.
>>The German Commission E (similar to our FDA but studies herbs only) has
>> done studies on hundreds of herbs and found most to be useful. The
>> monographs are available in book form.
>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:44 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>>
>>
>>>
>>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>>> I saw Kevin on TV two months ago, so his ban must have expired.
>>> no,  the ban was for selling any kind of health care product, now he
>>> only  sells books about health care products.
>>>
>>>
>>> I got his
>>>> last two books.
>>>> They do seem to written in haste. But I don't doubt the things he says.
>>>
>>> keep in mind he admitted to credit card fraud.  He stole peoples money.
>>>  what makes you think he's telling the truth now?  did you read any of
>>> the comments at ripoffreport.com ?  he is a scam artist
>>>
>>>I
>>>> have seen too many people, friends
>>>> and family, die from drugs. Myself, I don't want to take a chance with
>>>> drugs, and as
>>>> long as alt therapies are available, I will continue to use them
>>>> exclusively.
>>>
>>> a commendable notion, but where do

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[Keith Addison]

Hello Mike

>Health care today is industrialized medicine, driven by profit & 
>focused on treating the symptom rather preventing the disease.  It 
>is up to the individual to apply skepticism to the claims of this 
>industry to protect both health & pocketbook.  We must take full 
>responsibility for our health if we wish to be truly healthy; we 
>cannot trust government or industry to do it for us.  The best way 
>to do this is to rely on both the most effective & cheapest 
>healthcare known to Man---prevention, along with the judicious use 
>of only those treatments & medicines whose efficacy & undesired 
>effects is backed by sufficient evidence.  Neither conventional nor 
>alternative medicine should be given a free ride, and while much of 
>conventional medicine cannot be trusted, neither can most of the 
>alternative.

I agree with you up to now, but a lot of people might argue that your 
"much" and "most" are the wrong way round. Actually none of it is to 
be trusted, in all cases you have to make your own judgment based on 
the best information you can gather. (And peer-reviewed journals 
isn't necessarily it, especially not these days.)

>The safety of any treatment is completely depended upon & 
>proportional to the evidence we have regarding it.  Until an 
>"alternative" treatment is backed by sufficient evidence, and by 
>more than testimonial evidence or hearsay, its use is dangerous to 
>some degree.

Again, you could have left out the "alternative", it's superfluous, 
it cuts both ways.

Much also depends on what you regard as evidence. From your previous 
posts I think you may have a little too much reverence for the 
Western scientific method for your own good. Would you agree with 
Bob's definition: "efficacy proven via reproducible double blind 
trials, and supported by statistically significant epidemiology"? 
That's something of a keyhole view, IMHO, with all due respect. I've 
done quite a lot of work with Chinese traditional medicine, both as 
an investigator and a few times as a patient, and also to a lesser 
extent with Indian and African traditional medicine, and applying 
such narrow, culturally-biased criteria of "evidence" to these 
disciplines (yes indeed) will definitely mean losing quite a few 
babies along with the bathwater. There are other ways of looking at 
it which are just as valid, and their application to the healing arts 
is established beyond serious doubt.

>Education & skepticism are both critical to good health in today's 
>information-glutted & profit-driven world.

Add: "spin and disinformation-ridden", since the spinmeisters are not 
much fazed by education and scepticism.

>We can only act to protect ourselves by the quality of the knowledge 
>we possess, and while we gain our knowledge through education,

As with health, so with knowledge: to rephrase what you said, we also 
have to take full responsibility for our education if we wish to be 
truly knowledgeable.

But here we are in the thick of the brave new Information Age and 
nary a school to be found that teaches even the basic skills of 
handling and interpreting information, what a surprise (not!). Most 
people don't even realise such skills exist, and many just naturally 
assume they already have all the skills required and are themselves 
immune to disinformation (they're among the opinion industry's 
greatest successes).

>we determine its quality through skepticism.  Mike

Or anyway we try to.

Best

Keith


>- Original Message 
>From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 7:58:29 AM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>
>
>The main edifice of "conventional" allopathic (cure-the-symptom)
>so-called Western medicine, ie industrialised medicine, is all the
>hospitals.
>
>Occupying very many of those hospital beds are patients suffering
>from iatrogenic illnesses, that is sickness caused by medical
>treatment (225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes -
>JAMA. 2000 Jul 26;284(4):483-5). Nonetheless a fairly august medical
>practitioner once got angry with my questions and shouted: "Of COURSE
>we're more healthy now, we've got so many more hospital beds!" LOL!
>
>At another time, at a meeting of the steering committee of a primary
>health care group working on development projects in 3rd World
>countries, I mentioned that there's more to health than just the
>absence of disease. There was a polite pause, one of the doctors
>said, "Of course there is," and the discussion continued as if I
>hadn't said any

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[Michael Friebel]

Health care today is industrialized medicine, driven by profit & focused on 
treating the symptom rather preventing the disease.  It is up to the individual 
to apply skepticism to the claims of this industry to protect both health & 
pocketbook.  We must take full responsibility for our health if we wish to be 
truly healthy; we cannot trust government or industry to do it for us.  The 
best way to do this is to rely on both the most effective & cheapest healthcare 
known to Man---prevention, along with the judicious use of only those 
treatments & medicines whose efficacy & undesired effects is backed by 
sufficient evidence.  Neither conventional nor alternative medicine should be 
given a free ride, and while much of conventional medicine cannot be trusted, 
neither can most of the alternative.  The safety of any treatment is completely 
depended upon & proportional to the evidence we have regarding it.  Until an 
"alternative" treatment is backed by sufficient evidence, and by more than 
testimonial evidence or hearsay, its use is dangerous to some degree.  
Education & skepticism are both critical to good health in today's 
information-glutted & profit-driven world.  We can only act to protect 
ourselves by the quality of the knowledge we possess, and while we gain our 
knowledge through education, we determine its quality through skepticism.  Mike


- Original Message 
From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 7:58:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
WasTestimonials as Evidence)


The main edifice of "conventional" allopathic (cure-the-symptom) 
so-called Western medicine, ie industrialised medicine, is all the 
hospitals.

Occupying very many of those hospital beds are patients suffering 
from iatrogenic illnesses, that is sickness caused by medical 
treatment (225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes - 
JAMA. 2000 Jul 26;284(4):483-5). Nonetheless a fairly august medical 
practitioner once got angry with my questions and shouted: "Of COURSE 
we're more healthy now, we've got so many more hospital beds!" LOL!

At another time, at a meeting of the steering committee of a primary 
health care group working on development projects in 3rd World 
countries, I mentioned that there's more to health than just the 
absence of disease. There was a polite pause, one of the doctors 
said, "Of course there is," and the discussion continued as if I 
hadn't said anything.

The "Western" doctor who shouted at me didn't know what I was talking 
about when I told him that.

What's the difference? The glaring difference is that there's no 
market in 3rd World people who earn less than $2 a day, it's just not 
worth all the spin and corruption. There's no money in health anyway, 
maintaining disease is much more profitable, whether you're Big 
Pharma or a GP. Twenty-five years ago after I first started working 
with organic growing, a young doctor who was working with me got the 
idea that eating properly grown food might have something to do with 
it. He was working in a fishing community, quite poor people, and got 
very enthusiastic about the success he was having with this approach 
(nothing new - see, eg, The Medical Testament 
<http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#medtest>). But later 
he complained that healthy patients didn't visit the doctor very 
often. Eventually he moved back to the city and became a surgeon.

Every health education council I've talked to has stressed that 
health maintenance is primarily the patient's responsibility. But the 
patients are seduced by the quick "cure" that makes the symptom go 
away, and who needs more responsibility anyway? That's what doctors 
are for.

Especially in the industrialised countries, millions of people now 
suffer from systemic candida albicans yeast infections, and not many 
of them can get effective medical treatment for it. They're quite 
likely to be referred to a psychiatrist instead because when they 
report the large variety of symptoms candida produces it's assumed to 
be psychosomatic. Most of the medical profession is in denial about 
candida because it's brought on by overuse of antibiotics and 
steroids. So a lot of people just die, with whatever symptom "did it" 
on the death certificate.

Again to name just one, a study published in the BMJ a while back 
reported that back pain was the fastest-growing and one of the 
biggest medical problems in Britain at the time, and that 
"conventional" medicine had a very poor track record in treating it. 
The authors reported that several alternative therapies achieved much 
better results. They called for the alternative treatments to be made 
available 

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[Terry Dyck]

Hi Bob,

This is a tough call; do I believe your website, which I know nothing about 
or do I consider the website to be similar to some rumors started by people 
who thought that the famous environmentalist, Dr. David Suzuki, was too 
dangerous for the commercial world.  The rumors about Suzuki,  were not good 
for the environment but they gave amunition to people who were non 
environmental types.  Kevin Trudeau, I am sure, has made some enemies with 
the Pharmaceutical Corporations and therefore could be a target.

Terry Dyck


>From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:32:09 -0500
>
>no, Terry, you need to look "outside the book"  he went to prison for
>larceny- he stole money from people. The only big company he has headed
>was is own larcenous enterprises.
>
>   http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0826051trudeau1.html
>
>
>" he was 28 when he copped an April 1991 plea to two counts of credit
>card fraud. Trudeau's indictment, a copy of which you'll find below, was
>filed in Massachusetts and charged him with using "unauthorized access
>devices" to defraud American Express out of $122,735.68 (he also
>swindled about five grand from several banks, including Chemical and
>Citibank). Over five years, Trudeau, now 42, used false names and social
>security numbers to secure charge cards which he then ferociously milked.
>
>   Trudeau was sentenced to two years in prison and ordered to make
>restitution on his credit card schemes. After serving 21 months in Uncle
>Sam's custody, Trudeau was released in August 1993 and placed on two
>years probation.
>
>
>did you happen to look at any of the reports from individuals at
>ripoffreport.com   ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Terry Dyck wrote:
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > Kevin Trudeau went to prison because he was caught doing corrupt work 
>for
> > Pharmacitical corporations.  That info is in his book.
> >
> > Terry Dyck
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
> >> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
> >> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:40:52 -0500
> >>
> >> Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due
> >> to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials,
> >> you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low.
> >> Well, Trudeau went below that.
> >>
> >>
> >>   Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have 
>ever
> >> seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of
> >> acceptability very, very low.  Well, Trudeau went below that.
> >>
> >> here is the ftc statement
> >>
> >> http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm
> >>
> >>
> >> and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a
> >> federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been
> >> treated by the man.
> >>
> >>
> >> 
>http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q5=kevin+trudeau&submit2=Search%21&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0
> >>
> >> you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Terry Dyck wrote:
> >>> Hi Bob,
> >>>
> >>> The book titled "Natural Cures they don't want you to know about", by
> >> Kevin
> >>> Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial
> >> world.
> >>> Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of
> >> corrupt
> >>> work to please the share holders of his company.
> >> then he is corrupt to do it.  and just what company was that?  I don't
> >> mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question
> >> whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma.
> >>
> >>
> >>He was expected to do this
> >>> corrupt work in order to keep his job.  He also explains that the FDA
> >> quite
> >>> often picks on small natural food companies and has there products
> >> banned
> >>> for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom 
>line
>

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[econogics]

this approach
> (nothing new - see, eg, The Medical Testament
> <http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#medtest>). But later
> he complained that healthy patients didn't visit the doctor very
> often. Eventually he moved back to the city and became a surgeon.
>
> Every health education council I've talked to has stressed that
> health maintenance is primarily the patient's responsibility. But the
> patients are seduced by the quick "cure" that makes the symptom go
> away, and who needs more responsibility anyway? That's what doctors
> are for.
>
> Especially in the industrialised countries, millions of people now
> suffer from systemic candida albicans yeast infections, and not many
> of them can get effective medical treatment for it. They're quite
> likely to be referred to a psychiatrist instead because when they
> report the large variety of symptoms candida produces it's assumed to
> be psychosomatic. Most of the medical profession is in denial about
> candida because it's brought on by overuse of antibiotics and
> steroids. So a lot of people just die, with whatever symptom "did it"
> on the death certificate.
>
> Again to name just one, a study published in the BMJ a while back
> reported that back pain was the fastest-growing and one of the
> biggest medical problems in Britain at the time, and that
> "conventional" medicine had a very poor track record in treating it.
> The authors reported that several alternative therapies achieved much
> better results. They called for the alternative treatments to be made
> available via Britain's National Health scheme. That proposal didn't
> get very far.
>
> Some time before that the US DoA reported finding a potent
> anti-cancer drug in ordinary cabbages. But the report stated that the
> drug was unlikely to become available as it wasn't worth
> commercialising it because cabbages were too common. These days I
> suppose we'd suddenly find that cabbages had become the exclusive
> property of Pfizer or Bayer.
>
> There's something rollickingly insane about what happens to people
> who eat the "food" approved by the Food and Drugs Administration, and
> then they get the approved "healthcare" too (eg the "Seven Deadly
> Drugs" approved by the FDA). It's become a very Orwellian word,
> healthcare has. Things are indeed much as D. describes them, sad to
> say.
>
> Best
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
>>Bob,
>>  Your negativity is showing wrt alt medicine. You imply that once one is
>>convicted
>>of anything, then they're incapable of speaking the truth on anything. I am
>>more forgiving,
>>having realized my own numerous faults.
>>   There are many studies on alt therapies and they have been shown to be
>>safe
>>and effective. If you visit the Life Extension Foundation website you can
>>see many studies
>>there. Why are you so down on alt medicine? Especially when your beloved
Big
>>Pharma
>>takes what they think are the active elements of a plant, like willow, and
>>then derives a
>>drug from it. The point is that BP was led to this plant by its being used
>>as medicine for
>>hundreds of years. You could say that Big Pharma is validating an herb by
>>this approach.
>> You seem to be firmly in the grasp of western medicine with its high tech
>>approach
>>to human ailments. It treats the body as a type of robot and, imo, that's a
>>fundamental error.
>>Not only that, but they insist that only their way is "science" and we that
>>disagree are
>>goofy. Worse, they (Big Pharma) conspire to take away most of the herbs,
>>vitamins, and supplements
>>on the shelves in today's health food store. That is the aim of Codex
>>Alimentarius. Of
>>course, it is to be done to "protect" the citizens of America, Australia,
>>England, Germany,
>>etc. It will be done with no public input and to "harmonize" our trade with
>>all of our
>>trade partners. So, instead of harmonizing upwards in access to potent
>>herbs, supplements,
>>vitamins, ets., we will all be dragged down to near RDA (recommmended daily
>>allowance)
>>levels with a lot of stuff simply disappearing.
>>  One example of alt medicine in action:
>>http://www.cancerinform.org/aburzinterview.html
>>Dr Burzynski uses antineoplastins to cure a lot of people who are in
>>advanced stages
>>of cancer. He has been thoroughly harassed in spite of his successes by a
>>bully FDA.
>>Dr Julian Whitaker stuck up for him, mounting petition campaigns. It
worked,

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[Keith Addison]

u seem to be firmly in the grasp of western medicine with its high tech
>approach
>to human ailments. It treats the body as a type of robot and, imo, that's a
>fundamental error.
>Not only that, but they insist that only their way is "science" and we that
>disagree are
>goofy. Worse, they (Big Pharma) conspire to take away most of the herbs,
>vitamins, and supplements
>on the shelves in today's health food store. That is the aim of Codex
>Alimentarius. Of
>course, it is to be done to "protect" the citizens of America, Australia,
>England, Germany,
>etc. It will be done with no public input and to "harmonize" our trade with
>all of our
>trade partners. So, instead of harmonizing upwards in access to potent
>herbs, supplements,
>vitamins, ets., we will all be dragged down to near RDA (recommmended daily
>allowance)
>levels with a lot of stuff simply disappearing.
>   One example of alt medicine in action:
>http://www.cancerinform.org/aburzinterview.html
>Dr Burzynski uses antineoplastins to cure a lot of people who are in
>advanced stages
>of cancer. He has been thoroughly harassed in spite of his successes by a
>bully FDA.
>Dr Julian Whitaker stuck up for him, mounting petition campaigns. It worked,
>it seems
>that today the FDA is leaving him be. Cancer is a huge business and there
>little incentive
>to find real cures that are safe and effective. Burzynski represents a
>threat but he held
>his ground. My hat is off to him.
>The German Commission E (similar to our FDA but studies herbs only) has
>done studies on hundreds of herbs and found most to be useful. The
>monographs are available in book form.
>Peace, D. Mindock
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:44 AM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
>WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>
>
> >
> >
> > D. Mindock wrote:
> >> I saw Kevin on TV two months ago, so his ban must have expired.
> >
> > no,  the ban was for selling any kind of health care product, now he
> > only  sells books about health care products.
> >
> >
> > I got his
> >> last two books.
> >> They do seem to written in haste. But I don't doubt the things he says.
> >
> >
> > keep in mind he admitted to credit card fraud.  He stole peoples money.
> >  what makes you think he's telling the truth now?  did you read any of
> > the comments at ripoffreport.com ?  he is a scam artist
> >
> >I
> >> have seen too many people, friends
> >> and family, die from drugs. Myself, I don't want to take a chance with
> >> drugs, and as
> >> long as alt therapies are available, I will continue to use them
> >> exclusively.
> >
> >
> > a commendable notion, but where do you get reliable information on
> > efficacy?  from a con artist?
> >
> >
> >> It is a fact that all alt practioners are under attack. The more
> >> successful
> >> they are, the more they're stymied
> >> in their work by the FDA.
> >
> > how do you measure success? The reason they are under attack as you call
> > it not because of success, but because they make unsubstantiated claims.
> >For example mercola
> >
> > --
> > Mercola gets second warning letter.
> >
> > The FDA has ordered Joseph Mercola, DO and his Optimal Wellness Center
> > to stop making illegal claims for four products. The order was based on
> > product labels collected during an inspection at his facility and on
> > claims made on the Optimum Wellness Center Web site. The objectionable
> > claims include:
> >
> > **Vibrant Health Research Chlorella XP, claimed to "help to virtually
> > eliminate your risk of developing cancer in the future."
> >
> > **Fresh Shores Extra Virgin Coconut Oil, claimed to reduce the risk of
> > heart disease, cancer, and degenerative diseases.
> >
> > **Momentum Health Products Vitamin K2, possibly useful in treating
> > certain kinds of cancer and Alzheimer's disease.
> >
> > **Momentum Health Products Cardio Essentials Nattokinase NSK-SD, claimed
> > to be "a much safer and effective option than aspirin and other
> > pharmaceutical agents to treating heart disease."
> >
> > -----------
> >
> > This is one of the primary functions of the
> >> AMA. It has no enforcement powers so it calls on th

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

D. Mindock wrote:
> Bob,
>Your negativity is showing wrt alt medicine. You imply that once one is 
> convicted
> of anything, then they're incapable of speaking the truth on anything.

the problem is that he appears to still be offering up less than the truth.

see for example

  http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Health/story?id=1527774


  I am
> more forgiving,
> having realized my own numerous faults.
> There are many studies on alt therapies and they have been shown to be 
> safe
> and effective.

and many which have shown to do nothing.



  If you visit the Life Extension Foundation website you can
> see many studies
> there. Why are you so down on alt medicine? Especially when your beloved Big 
> Pharma

my beloved big pharma?  those are your words not mine, so be careful about what 
you attribute to who.

> takes what they think are the active elements of a plant, like willow, and 
> then derives a
> drug from it. The point is that BP was led to this plant by its being used 
> as medicine for
> hundreds of years.

were going in circles here, I said just the same previously-  "pharmacognosy"



  You could say that Big Pharma is validating an herb by
> this approach.

I agree


>   You seem to be firmly in the grasp of western medicine with its high tech 
> approach

if by western medicine you mean "efficacy proven via reproducible double blind 
trials, and supported 
by statistically significant epidemiology" then yes I am held it its sway.

> to human ailments. It treats the body as a type of robot 

this seems to be somewhat meaningless.  so how does alt medicine differ in its 
treatment of the 
body?


and, imo, that's a
> fundamental error.
> Not only that, but they insist that only their way is "science" and we that 
> disagree are
> goofy.

your words not mine.  My gripe is with people who couch there arguments about 
efficacy in science 
like terminology without any real scientific support. For example at the life 
extension site, which 
is there to make money after all, are a lot of questionable and/ or way 
overpriced nostrums for sale.

  Worse, they (Big Pharma) conspire to take away most of the herbs,
> vitamins, and supplements
> on the shelves in today's health food store. 

I keep asking for examples of this.  Give me one good example for us to discuss.




That is the aim of Codex
> Alimentarius. Of
> course, it is to be done to "protect" the citizens of America, Australia, 
> England, Germany,
> etc. It will be done with no public input and to "harmonize" our trade with 
> all of our
> trade partners.

   so you think the World Health Organization and the UN are out the keep you 
from getting herbs?



  So, instead of harmonizing upwards in access to potent
> herbs, supplements,
> vitamins, ets., we will all be dragged down to near RDA (recommmended daily 
> allowance)
> levels with a lot of stuff simply disappearing.
>One example of alt medicine in action:
> http://www.cancerinform.org/aburzinterview.html
> Dr Burzynski uses antineoplastins to cure a lot of people who are in 
> advanced stages
> of cancer. He has been thoroughly harassed in spite of his successes 

actually I find little evidence of success, at least as published in peer 
reviewed journals.  Here 
is another example of a treatment that is wrapped in science so to speak, but 
has generated scant 
evidence, other than a few case histories. And these frequently involved other 
treatments so it is 
not clear just what is going on.



by a
> bully FDA.
> Dr Julian Whitaker stuck up for him, mounting petition campaigns. It worked, 
> it seems
> that today the FDA is leaving him be. Cancer is a huge business


And I bet Burzynski is doing quite well at treating it. whether he is curing it 
is another matter 
altogether.

  and there
> little incentive
> to find real cures that are safe and effective. Burzynski represents a 
> threat but he held
> his ground.

and his income

My hat is off to him.
> The German Commission E (similar to our FDA but studies herbs only) has 
> done studies on hundreds of herbs and found most to be useful. The 
> monographs are available in book form.
> Peace, D. Mindock
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
> 
> 
>>
>> D. Mindock wrote:
>>> I saw Kevin on TV two months ago, so his ban must have expired.
>> no,  the ban was for selling any kind of health care product, now he
>> only  sells books about health care products.
>>
>>
>> I got his
>>> last two books.
>&g

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[D. Mindock]

Bob,
   Your negativity is showing wrt alt medicine. You imply that once one is 
convicted
of anything, then they're incapable of speaking the truth on anything. I am 
more forgiving,
having realized my own numerous faults.
There are many studies on alt therapies and they have been shown to be 
safe
and effective. If you visit the Life Extension Foundation website you can 
see many studies
there. Why are you so down on alt medicine? Especially when your beloved Big 
Pharma
takes what they think are the active elements of a plant, like willow, and 
then derives a
drug from it. The point is that BP was led to this plant by its being used 
as medicine for
hundreds of years. You could say that Big Pharma is validating an herb by 
this approach.
  You seem to be firmly in the grasp of western medicine with its high tech 
approach
to human ailments. It treats the body as a type of robot and, imo, that's a 
fundamental error.
Not only that, but they insist that only their way is "science" and we that 
disagree are
goofy. Worse, they (Big Pharma) conspire to take away most of the herbs, 
vitamins, and supplements
on the shelves in today's health food store. That is the aim of Codex 
Alimentarius. Of
course, it is to be done to "protect" the citizens of America, Australia, 
England, Germany,
etc. It will be done with no public input and to "harmonize" our trade with 
all of our
trade partners. So, instead of harmonizing upwards in access to potent 
herbs, supplements,
vitamins, ets., we will all be dragged down to near RDA (recommmended daily 
allowance)
levels with a lot of stuff simply disappearing.
   One example of alt medicine in action:
http://www.cancerinform.org/aburzinterview.html
Dr Burzynski uses antineoplastins to cure a lot of people who are in 
advanced stages
of cancer. He has been thoroughly harassed in spite of his successes by a 
bully FDA.
Dr Julian Whitaker stuck up for him, mounting petition campaigns. It worked, 
it seems
that today the FDA is leaving him be. Cancer is a huge business and there 
little incentive
to find real cures that are safe and effective. Burzynski represents a 
threat but he held
his ground. My hat is off to him.
The German Commission E (similar to our FDA but studies herbs only) has 
done studies on hundreds of herbs and found most to be useful. The 
monographs are available in book form.
Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
WasTestimonials as Evidence)


>
>
> D. Mindock wrote:
>> I saw Kevin on TV two months ago, so his ban must have expired.
>
> no,  the ban was for selling any kind of health care product, now he
> only  sells books about health care products.
>
>
> I got his
>> last two books.
>> They do seem to written in haste. But I don't doubt the things he says.
>
>
> keep in mind he admitted to credit card fraud.  He stole peoples money.
>  what makes you think he's telling the truth now?  did you read any of
> the comments at ripoffreport.com ?  he is a scam artist
>
>I
>> have seen too many people, friends
>> and family, die from drugs. Myself, I don't want to take a chance with
>> drugs, and as
>> long as alt therapies are available, I will continue to use them
>> exclusively.
>
>
> a commendable notion, but where do you get reliable information on
> efficacy?  from a con artist?
>
>
>> It is a fact that all alt practioners are under attack. The more 
>> successful
>> they are, the more they're stymied
>> in their work by the FDA.
>
> how do you measure success? The reason they are under attack as you call
> it not because of success, but because they make unsubstantiated claims.
>For example mercola
>
> --
> Mercola gets second warning letter.
>
> The FDA has ordered Joseph Mercola, DO and his Optimal Wellness Center
> to stop making illegal claims for four products. The order was based on
> product labels collected during an inspection at his facility and on
> claims made on the Optimum Wellness Center Web site. The objectionable
> claims include:
>
> **Vibrant Health Research Chlorella XP, claimed to "help to virtually
> eliminate your risk of developing cancer in the future."
>
> **Fresh Shores Extra Virgin Coconut Oil, claimed to reduce the risk of
> heart disease, cancer, and degenerative diseases.
>
> **Momentum Health Products Vitamin K2, possibly useful in treating
> certain kinds of cancer and Alzheimer's disease.
>
> **Momentum Health Products Cardio Essentials Nattokinase NSK-SD, claimed
> to be "a much safer and effect

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

D. Mindock wrote:
> I saw Kevin on TV two months ago, so his ban must have expired. 

no,  the ban was for selling any kind of health care product, now he 
only  sells books about health care products.


I got his
> last two books.
> They do seem to written in haste. But I don't doubt the things he says.


keep in mind he admitted to credit card fraud.  He stole peoples money. 
  what makes you think he's telling the truth now?  did you read any of 
the comments at ripoffreport.com ?  he is a scam artist

I
> have seen too many people, friends
> and family, die from drugs. Myself, I don't want to take a chance with 
> drugs, and as
> long as alt therapies are available, I will continue to use them 
> exclusively.


a commendable notion, but where do you get reliable information on 
efficacy?  from a con artist?


> It is a fact that all alt practioners are under attack. The more successful 
> they are, the more they're stymied
> in their work by the FDA.

how do you measure success? The reason they are under attack as you call 
it not because of success, but because they make unsubstantiated claims. 
For example mercola

--
Mercola gets second warning letter.

The FDA has ordered Joseph Mercola, DO and his Optimal Wellness Center 
to stop making illegal claims for four products. The order was based on 
product labels collected during an inspection at his facility and on 
claims made on the Optimum Wellness Center Web site. The objectionable 
claims include:

**Vibrant Health Research Chlorella XP, claimed to "help to virtually 
eliminate your risk of developing cancer in the future."

**Fresh Shores Extra Virgin Coconut Oil, claimed to reduce the risk of 
heart disease, cancer, and degenerative diseases.

**Momentum Health Products Vitamin K2, possibly useful in treating 
certain kinds of cancer and Alzheimer's disease.

**Momentum Health Products Cardio Essentials Nattokinase NSK-SD, claimed 
to be "a much safer and effective option than aspirin and other 
pharmaceutical agents to treating heart disease."

---

This is one of the primary functions of the
> AMA. It has no enforcement powers so it calls on the FDA.  It is called 
> "protecting thy turf". Alt medicine
> is growing by leaps and bounds and is the wave of the future, if, a big if, 
> it can survive the onslaught from
>  the FDA, AMA, and Codex Alimentarius.

and another big if is can it be proven to really do anything.

> Big Pharma is the creator/backer of the Codex and I have no doubt that many 
> Repugs and a few
> key Dems are being primed to pass legislation to make it a done deal in the 
> U$ of A.
> Peace, D. Mindock
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 1:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
> 
> 
>> Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due
>> to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials,
>> you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low.
>> Well, Trudeau went below that.
>>
>>
>>  Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever
>> seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of
>> acceptability very, very low.  Well, Trudeau went below that.
>>
>> here is the ftc statement
>>
>> http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm
>>
>>
>> and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a
>> federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been
>> treated by the man.
>>
>>
>> http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q5=kevin+trudeau&submit2=Search%21&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0
>>
>> you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy.
>>
>>
>>
>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>> The book titled "Natural Cures they don't want you to know about", by 
>>> Kevin
>>> Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world.
>>> Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of 
>>> corrupt
>>> work to please the share holders of his company.
>> then he is corrupt to do it.  and just what company was that?  I don't
>> mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question
>> whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma.
>>
>>
>>   He was expected to do this
>>> corrupt work in order 

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[D. Mindock]

I saw Kevin on TV two months ago, so his ban must have expired. I got his 
last two books.
They do seem to written in haste. But I don't doubt the things he says. I 
have seen too many people, friends
and family, die from drugs. Myself, I don't want to take a chance with 
drugs, and as
long as alt therapies are available, I will continue to use them 
exclusively.
It is a fact that all alt practioners are under attack. The more successful 
they are, the more they're stymied
in their work by the FDA. This is one of the primary functions of the
AMA. It has no enforcement powers so it calls on the FDA.  It is called 
"protecting thy turf". Alt medicine
is growing by leaps and bounds and is the wave of the future, if, a big if, 
it can survive the onslaught from
 the FDA, AMA, and Codex Alimentarius.
Big Pharma is the creator/backer of the Codex and I have no doubt that many 
Repugs and a few
key Dems are being primed to pass legislation to make it a done deal in the 
U$ of A.
Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
WasTestimonials as Evidence)


> Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due
> to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials,
> you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low.
> Well, Trudeau went below that.
>
>
>  Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever
> seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of
> acceptability very, very low.  Well, Trudeau went below that.
>
> here is the ftc statement
>
> http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm
>
>
> and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a
> federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been
> treated by the man.
>
>
> http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q5=kevin+trudeau&submit2=Search%21&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0
>
> you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy.
>
>
>
> Terry Dyck wrote:
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> The book titled "Natural Cures they don't want you to know about", by 
>> Kevin
>> Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world.
>> Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of 
>> corrupt
>> work to please the share holders of his company.
>
> then he is corrupt to do it.  and just what company was that?  I don't
> mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question
> whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma.
>
>
>   He was expected to do this
>> corrupt work in order to keep his job.  He also explains that the FDA 
>> quite
>> often picks on small natural food companies and has there products banned
>> for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line 
>> of
>> Drug companies profits.
>
> got a verifiable example?
>
>
>> You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can
>> influence information.  Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid
>> scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, 
>> etc.
>
> now here we agree.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
>>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>>> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500
>>>
>>> That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily.  Here is what
>>> I should have sent:
>>>
>>> Howdy Terry,
>>>
>>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>>> Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe
>>> and D.
>>>> Mindock in stating that I to believe in science.  There is good science
>>> and
>>>> bad science.
>>> bad science has little meaning in my mind.   One can pursue information
>>> via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not.
>>> There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science.
>>>
>>>
>>>   When it comes to the western world and health money seems to
>>>> be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much
>>> published
>>>> science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations.
>>> or big profit for little guys like mercola, hul

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

no, Terry, you need to look "outside the book"  he went to prison for 
larceny- he stole money from people. The only big company he has headed 
was is own larcenous enterprises.

  http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0826051trudeau1.html


" he was 28 when he copped an April 1991 plea to two counts of credit 
card fraud. Trudeau's indictment, a copy of which you'll find below, was 
filed in Massachusetts and charged him with using "unauthorized access 
devices" to defraud American Express out of $122,735.68 (he also 
swindled about five grand from several banks, including Chemical and 
Citibank). Over five years, Trudeau, now 42, used false names and social 
security numbers to secure charge cards which he then ferociously milked.

  Trudeau was sentenced to two years in prison and ordered to make 
restitution on his credit card schemes. After serving 21 months in Uncle 
Sam's custody, Trudeau was released in August 1993 and placed on two 
years probation.


did you happen to look at any of the reports from individuals at 
ripoffreport.com   ?






Terry Dyck wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> Kevin Trudeau went to prison because he was caught doing corrupt work for 
> Pharmacitical corporations.  That info is in his book.
> 
> Terry Dyck
> 
> 
> 
>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:40:52 -0500
>>
>> Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due
>> to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials,
>> you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low.
>> Well, Trudeau went below that.
>>
>>
>>   Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever
>> seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of
>> acceptability very, very low.  Well, Trudeau went below that.
>>
>> here is the ftc statement
>>
>> http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm
>>
>>
>> and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a
>> federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been
>> treated by the man.
>>
>>
>> http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q5=kevin+trudeau&submit2=Search%21&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0
>>
>> you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy.
>>
>>
>>
>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>> The book titled "Natural Cures they don't want you to know about", by 
>> Kevin
>>> Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial 
>> world.
>>> Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of 
>> corrupt
>>> work to please the share holders of his company.
>> then he is corrupt to do it.  and just what company was that?  I don't
>> mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question
>> whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma.
>>
>>
>>He was expected to do this
>>> corrupt work in order to keep his job.  He also explains that the FDA 
>> quite
>>> often picks on small natural food companies and has there products 
>> banned
>>> for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line 
>> of
>>> Drug companies profits.
>> got a verifiable example?
>>
>>
>>> You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can
>>> influence information.  Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid
>>> scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, 
>> etc.
>>
>> now here we agree.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
>>>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>>>> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500
>>>>
>>>> That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily.  Here is 
>> what
>>>> I should have sent:
>>>>
>>>> Howdy Terry,
>>>>
>>>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>>>> Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe
>>>> and D.
>>>>> Mindock in stating that I to believe in science.  There i

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[doug swanson]

a friend lent me the book, and after paging through it, I decided that 
the information, which can all be found via google, was cleverly 
embedded in a multi-level marketing scheme system...  Wiki seems to have 
the same sort of comments about the "Nutrition for Life"   
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Trudeau
I believe that nutrition is indeed the first step in healthy living, and 
a series of steps in avoiding any need for medical attention, (barring 
getting hit by a bus, or meteor...)  But this book made my stomach twist.

doug swanson


bob allen wrote:

>Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due 
>to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials, 
>you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. 
>Well, Trudeau went below that.
>
>
>  Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever 
>seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of 
>acceptability very, very low.  Well, Trudeau went below that.
>
>here is the ftc statement
>
>http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm
>
>
>and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a 
>federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been 
>treated by the man.
>
>
>http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q5=kevin+trudeau&submit2=Search%21&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0
>
>you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy.
>
>
>
>Terry Dyck wrote:
>  
>
>>Hi Bob,
>>
>>The book titled "Natural Cures they don't want you to know about", by Kevin 
>>Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world.  
>>Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of corrupt 
>>work to please the share holders of his company.
>>
>>
>
>then he is corrupt to do it.  and just what company was that?  I don't 
>mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question 
>whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma.
>
>
>   He was expected to do this
>  
>
>>corrupt work in order to keep his job.  He also explains that the FDA quite 
>>often picks on small natural food companies and has there products banned 
>>for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line of 
>>Drug companies profits.
>>
>>
>
>got a verifiable example?
>
>
>  
>
>>You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can 
>>influence information.  Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid 
>>scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, etc.
>>
>>
>
>now here we agree.
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>>
>>
>>>From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>>>WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>>>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500
>>>
>>>That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily.  Here is what
>>>I should have sent:
>>>
>>>Howdy Terry,
>>>
>>>Terry Dyck wrote:
>>>  
>>>
>>>>Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>and D.
>>>  
>>>
>>>>Mindock in stating that I to believe in science.  There is good science 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>and
>>>  
>>>
>>>>bad science.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>bad science has little meaning in my mind.   One can pursue information
>>>via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not.
>>>There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science.
>>>
>>>
>>>  When it comes to the western world and health money seems to
>>>  
>>>
>>>>be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much 
>>>>    
>>>>
>>>published
>>>  
>>>
>>>>science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless
>>>array of hucksters?
>>>
>>>
>>>   So
>>>  
>>>
>>>>we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>not on this list, h

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[Terry Dyck]

Hi Bob,

Kevin Trudeau went to prison because he was caught doing corrupt work for 
Pharmacitical corporations.  That info is in his book.

Terry Dyck



>From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:40:52 -0500
>
>Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due
>to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials,
>you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low.
>Well, Trudeau went below that.
>
>
>   Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever
>seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of
>acceptability very, very low.  Well, Trudeau went below that.
>
>here is the ftc statement
>
>http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm
>
>
>and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a
>federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been
>treated by the man.
>
>
>http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q5=kevin+trudeau&submit2=Search%21&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0
>
>you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy.
>
>
>
>Terry Dyck wrote:
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > The book titled "Natural Cures they don't want you to know about", by 
>Kevin
> > Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial 
>world.
> > Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of 
>corrupt
> > work to please the share holders of his company.
>
>then he is corrupt to do it.  and just what company was that?  I don't
>mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question
>whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma.
>
>
>He was expected to do this
> > corrupt work in order to keep his job.  He also explains that the FDA 
>quite
> > often picks on small natural food companies and has there products 
>banned
> > for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line 
>of
> > Drug companies profits.
>
>got a verifiable example?
>
>
> > You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can
> > influence information.  Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid
> > scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, 
>etc.
>
>now here we agree.
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
> >> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
> >> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500
> >>
> >> That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily.  Here is 
>what
> >> I should have sent:
> >>
> >> Howdy Terry,
> >>
> >> Terry Dyck wrote:
> >>> Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe
> >> and D.
> >>> Mindock in stating that I to believe in science.  There is good 
>science
> >> and
> >>> bad science.
> >> bad science has little meaning in my mind.   One can pursue information
> >> via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not.
> >> There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science.
> >>
> >>
> >>   When it comes to the western world and health money seems to
> >>> be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much
> >> published
> >>> science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical 
>corportations.
> >> or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless
> >> array of hucksters?
> >>
> >>
> >>So
> >>> we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say.
> >> not on this list, huh.  But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see
> >> much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>   This is not
> >>> good for human health.
> >>>
> >>> Terry Dyck
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >>>> To: 
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
&g

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due 
to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials, 
you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. 
Well, Trudeau went below that.


  Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever 
seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of 
acceptability very, very low.  Well, Trudeau went below that.

here is the ftc statement

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm


and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a 
federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been 
treated by the man.


http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q5=kevin+trudeau&submit2=Search%21&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0

you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy.



Terry Dyck wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> The book titled "Natural Cures they don't want you to know about", by Kevin 
> Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world.  
> Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of corrupt 
> work to please the share holders of his company.

then he is corrupt to do it.  and just what company was that?  I don't 
mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question 
whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma.


   He was expected to do this
> corrupt work in order to keep his job.  He also explains that the FDA quite 
> often picks on small natural food companies and has there products banned 
> for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line of 
> Drug companies profits.

got a verifiable example?


> You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can 
> influence information.  Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid 
> scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, etc.

now here we agree.




> 
> 
>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500
>>
>> That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily.  Here is what
>> I should have sent:
>>
>> Howdy Terry,
>>
>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>> Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe 
>> and D.
>>> Mindock in stating that I to believe in science.  There is good science 
>> and
>>> bad science.
>> bad science has little meaning in my mind.   One can pursue information
>> via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not.
>> There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science.
>>
>>
>>   When it comes to the western world and health money seems to
>>> be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much 
>> published
>>> science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations.
>> or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless
>> array of hucksters?
>>
>>
>>So
>>> we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say.
>> not on this list, huh.  But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see
>> much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma.
>>
>>
>>
>>   This is not
>>> good for human health.
>>>
>>> Terry Dyck
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>> To: 
>>>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
>>>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>>>> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500
>>>>
>>>> Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who 
>> can be
>>>> bought to produce desired
>>>> outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained 
>> to
>>>> run computer
>>>> models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate 
>> more
>>>> closely to
>>>> reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard.
>>>> Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour 
>> knowledge
>>>> into hung-over
>>>> college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is 
>> awe
>>>> inspiring at times.
>>>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[Terry Dyck]

Hi Bob,

The book titled "Natural Cures they don't want you to know about", by Kevin 
Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world.  
Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of corrupt 
work to please the share holders of his company.  He was expected to do this 
corrupt work in order to keep his job.  He also explains that the FDA quite 
often picks on small natural food companies and has there products banned 
for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line of 
Drug companies profits.
You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can 
influence information.  Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid 
scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, etc.


>From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500
>
>That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily.  Here is what
>I should have sent:
>
>Howdy Terry,
>
>Terry Dyck wrote:
> > Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe 
>and D.
> > Mindock in stating that I to believe in science.  There is good science 
>and
> > bad science.
>
>bad science has little meaning in my mind.   One can pursue information
>via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not.
>There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science.
>
>
>   When it comes to the western world and health money seems to
> > be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much 
>published
> > science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations.
>
>or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless
>array of hucksters?
>
>
>So
> > we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say.
>
>not on this list, huh.  But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see
>much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma.
>
>
>
>   This is not
> > good for human health.
> >
> > Terry Dyck
> >
> >
> >> From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >> To: 
> >> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
> >> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
> >> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500
> >>
> >> Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who 
>can be
> >> bought to produce desired
> >> outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained 
>to
> >> run computer
> >> models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate 
>more
> >> closely to
> >> reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard.
> >> Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour 
>knowledge
> >> into hung-over
> >> college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is 
>awe
> >> inspiring at times.
> >> Peace, D. Mindock
> >>
> >>
> >> - Original Message -
> >> From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: 
> >> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:34 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>Was
> >> Testimonials as Evidence)
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hi Kurt;
> >>>
> >>> Pardon my snipping style but.
> >>>
> >>> Kurt Nolte wrote:
> >>> snip
> >>>
> >>>> On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry
> >>>> Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my 
>head.
> >>>> These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming that
> >>>> herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly
> >>>> efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharmaceuticals produced 
>by
> >>>> synthetic processes just don't hack it.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Actually I don't believe I ever said that!  I am opposing Bob to some
> >>> degree but that doesn't mean I said what you are attributing to me, or 
>I
> >>> guess more correctly that you should be lumping me in with what you 
>are
> >>> saying about the others.  I am very scientifically inclined, I run a
> >>> univers

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily.  Here is what 
I should have sent:

Howdy Terry,

Terry Dyck wrote:
> Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe and D. 
> Mindock in stating that I to believe in science.  There is good science and 
> bad science. 

bad science has little meaning in my mind.   One can pursue information 
via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not. 
There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science.


  When it comes to the western world and health money seems to
> be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much published 
> science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations.

or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless
array of hucksters?


   So
> we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say. 

not on this list, huh.  But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see
much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma.



  This is not
> good for human health.
> 
> Terry Dyck
> 
> 
>> From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: 
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500
>>
>> Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who can be
>> bought to produce desired
>> outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained to
>> run computer
>> models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate more
>> closely to
>> reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard.
>> Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour knowledge
>> into hung-over
>> college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is awe
>> inspiring at times.
>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was
>> Testimonials as Evidence)
>>
>>
>>> Hi Kurt;
>>>
>>> Pardon my snipping style but.
>>>
>>> Kurt Nolte wrote:
>>> snip
>>>
>>>> On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry
>>>> Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my head.
>>>> These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming that
>>>> herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly
>>>> efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharmaceuticals produced by
>>>> synthetic processes just don't hack it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Actually I don't believe I ever said that!  I am opposing Bob to some
>>> degree but that doesn't mean I said what you are attributing to me, or I
>>> guess more correctly that you should be lumping me in with what you are
>>> saying about the others.  I am very scientifically inclined, I run a
>>> university lab for pete's sake as well but I am also a sceptic of the
>>> idea that science is the be all and end all or that it has all the
>>> answers.  I still have great respect for science and believe that one
>>> day it may encompass things that it currently can't explain.  All I am
>>> suggesting to Bob is that even though science cannot explain something
>>> at the present time, that does not mean it must necessarily be
>>> rejected.  I think this is the only point on which Bob and I are in
>>> dissagreement.  I also wouldn't say it is fair to be calling Bob closed
>>> minded.  Stubborn yes but narrow or closed minded, no.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ___
>> Biofuel mailing list
>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>> messages):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

howdy terry

Terry Dyck wrote:
> Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe and D. 
> Mindock in stating that I to believe in science.  There is good science and 
> bad science. 

bad science is an oxymoron.  One can pursue information via methods 
attempt to control confounding variables or not.  There is hype, 
marketing, downright lies etc.  but that is science.


  When it comes to the western world and health money seems to
> be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much published 
> science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations. 

or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless 
array of hucksters.


So
> we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say.

not on this list, huh.  But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see 
much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma.



   This is not
> good for human health.

it depends



> 
> Terry Dyck
> 
> 
>> From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: 
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500
>>
>> Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who can be
>> bought to produce desired
>> outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained to
>> run computer
>> models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate more
>> closely to
>> reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard.
>> Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour knowledge
>> into hung-over
>> college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is awe
>> inspiring at times.
>> Peace, D. Mindock
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:34 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was
>> Testimonials as Evidence)
>>
>>
>>> Hi Kurt;
>>>
>>> Pardon my snipping style but.
>>>
>>> Kurt Nolte wrote:
>>> snip
>>>
>>>> On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry
>>>> Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my head.
>>>> These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming that
>>>> herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly
>>>> efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharmaceuticals produced by
>>>> synthetic processes just don't hack it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Actually I don't believe I ever said that!  I am opposing Bob to some
>>> degree but that doesn't mean I said what you are attributing to me, or I
>>> guess more correctly that you should be lumping me in with what you are
>>> saying about the others.  I am very scientifically inclined, I run a
>>> university lab for pete's sake as well but I am also a sceptic of the
>>> idea that science is the be all and end all or that it has all the
>>> answers.  I still have great respect for science and believe that one
>>> day it may encompass things that it currently can't explain.  All I am
>>> suggesting to Bob is that even though science cannot explain something
>>> at the present time, that does not mean it must necessarily be
>>> rejected.  I think this is the only point on which Bob and I are in
>>> dissagreement.  I also wouldn't say it is fair to be calling Bob closed
>>> minded.  Stubborn yes but narrow or closed minded, no.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ___
>> Biofuel mailing list
>> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>> messages):
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Bob Allen
http://www.ozarker.org/bob
-
Science is what we have learned about how to
keep from fooling ourselves.   Richard Feynman

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Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[Terry Dyck]

Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe and D. 
Mindock in stating that I to believe in science.  There is good science and 
bad science.  When it comes to the western world and health money seems to 
be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much published 
science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations.  So 
we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say.  This is not 
good for human health.

Terry Dyck


>From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: 
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500
>
>Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who can be
>bought to produce desired
>outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained to
>run computer
>models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate more
>closely to
>reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard.
>Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour knowledge
>into hung-over
>college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is awe
>inspiring at times.
>Peace, D. Mindock
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:34 AM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was
>Testimonials as Evidence)
>
>
> > Hi Kurt;
> >
> > Pardon my snipping style but.
> >
> > Kurt Nolte wrote:
> > snip
> >
> >>
> >>On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry
> >>Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my head.
> >>These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming that
> >>herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly
> >>efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharmaceuticals produced by
> >>synthetic processes just don't hack it.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Actually I don't believe I ever said that!  I am opposing Bob to some
> > degree but that doesn't mean I said what you are attributing to me, or I
> > guess more correctly that you should be lumping me in with what you are
> > saying about the others.  I am very scientifically inclined, I run a
> > university lab for pete's sake as well but I am also a sceptic of the
> > idea that science is the be all and end all or that it has all the
> > answers.  I still have great respect for science and believe that one
> > day it may encompass things that it currently can't explain.  All I am
> > suggesting to Bob is that even though science cannot explain something
> > at the present time, that does not mean it must necessarily be
> > rejected.  I think this is the only point on which Bob and I are in
> > dissagreement.  I also wouldn't say it is fair to be calling Bob closed
> > minded.  Stubborn yes but narrow or closed minded, no.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
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>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>



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Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[Thomas Kelly]

Good Day to All,
 Gustl wrote:
  "And  again,  mystical  experience  can  be  verified if one has enough
interest to take the time (and it is a long process) to investigate."

 In August of 1973 I was standing atop a Mountain at an elevation of 
about 14,000ft.  I saw the plains stretching out as far as the eye could 
see.
My bride of  4 days was about three feet away from me. We were expressing 
awe at what stretched out before us. When she said  "Mountains, mountains, 
as far as the eye can see" I was jolted. I turned to see that she was behind 
me looking in the opposite direction at an apparently endless sea of 
mountains.. This was not so much a mystical experience, but it brought a big 
smile to my face. Viewpoint took on a whole new meaning.
About a month later I was back at work. A social studies teacher had 
invited guests from a Zen Monastary (?) to visit his class and speak to the 
students. Out of curiosity,  I stopped by the classroom on my way to lunch. 
Another teacher was also there. He was being rude and, I thought, insulting 
  joking about "mysticism mumbo-jumbo".
The guests seemed to smile a lot. One finally asked him "Who is coming 
down the hall?" The rude teacher replied that he did not know. The visitor 
said "Of course not. Sometimes one must take steps to see what others see."
The rude teacher said "Yeah, I'm taking steps. I'm going to lunch."
The classroom teacher apologized for the rudeness. The visitors smiled and 
shrugged it off. It brought a big smile to my face. I think I understood 
what they meant.
 I know that one can change one's point of view simply by turning one's 
head. Sometimes it requires reading a book, visiting another culture, or 
actually listening to what another person is saying. Sometimes it takes a 
few months reading posts on a global mailing list. For some, it can be a 
life-long journey. Simply put, ones' point of view depends on the steps 
taken to produce it.

 "..  mystical  experience  can  be  verified if one has enough
interest to take the time (and it is a long process) to investigate."

 I believe the visitors to my friend's classroom had taken the steps 
that opened up a world that the rest of us occassional catch glimpses of, if 
at all.

 Thanks Gustl.
 I don't know if this applies to what you wrote. After reading your post 
these old, dust-covered memories rose to the surface along with the same 
smile each event produced.
  I hope your day is full of smiles.
   Tom


- Original Message - 
From: "Gustl Steiner-Zehender" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Michael Friebel" 
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
WasTestimonials as Evidence)


Hallo Michael,

I  may  be  running  on  assumptions  here  and you appear to me to be
running  on  some  assumptions,  but I do realize that assumptions are
only  that  and  nothing  more and may be false.  Perhaps it is just a
matter  of  definitions  or  perception.   I  will give both of us the
benefit of the doubt. :o)

I  was  born  into,  raised as and am presently a member of a mystical
religion,  that  being Friends (Quakers).  We had a schism back in the
early  1800's  here  in  the  states  and  my  family  ended up on the
"Hicksite"  side  of  the  thing.  Outwardly conservative and inwardly
liberal.  Hicks once stated the following:

"Now I want these things to sink deep into the heart of every age, sex
and  condition.   Be willing to investigate for yourselves; don't mind
what I say, or what any one else may say, but bring things home to the
truth in your own bosoms; turn them over and over, and see if there is
not  something  in  them  worthy of preservation--and if there is not,
leave  them.   I say, I want you to investigate for yourselves; for we
have  that liberty, in this land of liberty.  We have a right to think
for  ourselves,  about  what we know to be the truth in ourselves, and
nothing  but  the truth...Oh! then, that we may become willing to turn
inward  to  what  the  light  makes  manifest...Whatsoever is wrong is
reproved  by  this light, and all things that are reproveable we know,
for  they  are  made  manifest  by  the light;  clearly so.  And it is
reasonable  to  conclude  that  without  light,  nothing  can  be made
manifest.   But  when  we  come into the light of the Lord, all things
will  be  made  manifest,  when  the mind is willing, and the heart is
disposed  to  receive God in the way of his coming.  I feel earnest in
my  desires for us, that we may this evening lay these things properly
to  heart. I hope you will take these things home, my friends, and not
be hasty in deciding, but turn them over in your minds, and if you can
find any thi

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[D. Mindock]

Hi Gustl,
   It really does not take much effort to experience the mystical. The less
effort you put into it, the more readily it'll occur. I'm thinking of
meditation, of course. I remember my first meditative experience.
I was given a mantra to use, one specially for me.
It was wonderfully relaxing and when I got up to leave, I could
hardly walk, I was so relaxed. I had a huge amount of job stress
in those days and that first experience got rid of a lot of it. Now,
many years later, I know about those mystical experiences. There're
not something abstract, but very real.
  Anyway, meditation is the most direct way to higher states of 
consciousness
that I know. The effort required is minimal and the payoff is phenomenal.
Only thing required is a desire to get to know your real Self.
Peace & light, D. Mindock
  .
- Original Message - 
From: "Gustl Steiner-Zehender" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Michael Friebel" 
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
WasTestimonials as Evidence)


Hallo Michael,

I  may  be  running  on  assumptions  here  and you appear to me to be
running  on  some  assumptions,  but I do realize that assumptions are
only  that  and  nothing  more and may be false.  Perhaps it is just a
matter  of  definitions  or  perception.   I  will give both of us the
benefit of the doubt. :o)

I  was  born  into,  raised as and am presently a member of a mystical
religion,  that  being Friends (Quakers).  We had a schism back in the
early  1800's  here  in  the  states  and  my  family  ended up on the
"Hicksite"  side  of  the  thing.  Outwardly conservative and inwardly
liberal.  Hicks once stated the following:

"Now I want these things to sink deep into the heart of every age, sex
and  condition.   Be willing to investigate for yourselves; don't mind
what I say, or what any one else may say, but bring things home to the
truth in your own bosoms; turn them over and over, and see if there is
not  something  in  them  worthy of preservation--and if there is not,
leave  them.   I say, I want you to investigate for yourselves; for we
have  that liberty, in this land of liberty.  We have a right to think
for  ourselves,  about  what we know to be the truth in ourselves, and
nothing  but  the truth...Oh! then, that we may become willing to turn
inward  to  what  the  light  makes  manifest...Whatsoever is wrong is
reproved  by  this light, and all things that are reproveable we know,
for  they  are  made  manifest  by  the light;  clearly so.  And it is
reasonable  to  conclude  that  without  light,  nothing  can  be made
manifest.   But  when  we  come into the light of the Lord, all things
will  be  made  manifest,  when  the mind is willing, and the heart is
disposed  to  receive God in the way of his coming.  I feel earnest in
my  desires for us, that we may this evening lay these things properly
to  heart. I hope you will take these things home, my friends, and not
be hasty in deciding, but turn them over in your minds, and if you can
find any thing in them, well, and if not leave them." (Gould 1830)

If  this isn't the mystical equivalent of the scientific method then I
will eat my hat (either straw or felt).

It  uses  operational  terms,  allows for experimental duplication and
repeatability,  calls  for  emperical  observation and induction, uses
analytic-synthetic  thinking,  allows for prediction and falsification
and  the  conclusions  come  from  a  "scientific" public consensus of
truth.

While  all  of this is not readily observable from the small paragraph
above,  it  is  if  one  takes the time to get acquainted with Friends
beliefs  (or  those of other branches of mystics).  You should be able
to get the sense of it from the paragraph above though.

But  brother,  we  haven't  defined  out  terms.  You  claim  mystical
experience  is  unverifiable  but  it is verifiable to anyone with the
right  tools and interest. If I were to tell you that the existence of
atoms  is  unverifiable  you  would tell me that I just don't have the
right  tools  and  expect  me  to  accept  that.  Same  same  mystical
experience  brother.  Goose,  gander. Because a person does not pursue
one  particular  path  does not obviate the existence of that path nor
does it make that path irrelevant. And you can "analyze, criticize, or
accept anything pertaining to it, including its existence" IF you care
to  take  the trouble to examine it thoroughly.  But one size does not
fit  all  and if a person doesn't have the interest then there will be
no  investigation.   I  would  urge  caution  however  to those making
pronouncements  about  something they have not investigated thoroughly
and  I  would  also  not  dismiss  something  solely  because  it  was
subjective.  Headaches are subjective brother. :o)

And  again,

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[M&K DuPree]

Gustl...I'm not the 
"Michael" to whom you have addressed your words, but that doesn't matter.  
Your words ring true...true...with me nonetheless.  Thank you.  

 To 
"Michael" and "Bob" and whomever has decided to be strictly "scientific" in 
the sense that the "scientific" might exclude the "mystical" or, more 
specifically, what can only be verified subjectively:  Will you 
doubt that everything is connected?  If you will, enjoy your 
masturbation.  If you will not, then what might be the implications?  
What might be not only the probabilities but also the possibilities?  Our 
world is constantly subjected...subjected...to the objective for purely, I am 
convinced, selfish purposes.  But, if you have accepted that all is 
connected, then the objective must be an illusion.  So now what?  I 
don't know...but I want to know.  The objective path has led our world to 
ruin.  Consequently, I am personally disinclined to allow my personal 
history to be a repeat of this unexamined history.  Whether or not 
anyone else does, somehow I don't believe it really matters...because we are all 
connected, not just with each other, but with every star and the void that 
engulfs them, not just now, but forever now.  
 
Perhaps one day our schools will devote a portion of the curriculum to that 
whereby we are all connected.  Classrooms of extreme quietude, whereby each 
individual is awakened in meditation.  Perhaps these classrooms exist 
already, as I'm sure they must.  When they become public, however, then we 
will know that what is true has broken through the void in some fundamental 
way perhaps never known throughout the universe.  Maybe that will happen 
here on planet earth...maybe it is happening already elsewhere, although 
somehow I doubt it because when it does, the universe will have somehow 
fundamentally changed and become something it has never been before, another 
step in the real evolution, the evolution of consciousness and 
curiosity.  Mike DuPree
 
- Original Message - 

From: "Gustl Steiner-Zehender" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Michael Friebel" <biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 7:23 
AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness 
(Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)
> Hallo Michael,> > I  
may  be  running  on  assumptions  here  and you 
appear to me to be> running  on  some  assumptions,  
but I do realize that assumptions are> only  that  and  
nothing  more and may be false.  Perhaps it is just a> 
matter  of  definitions  or  perception.   I  
will give both of us the> benefit of the doubt. :o)> > 
I  was  born  into,  raised as and am presently a member of 
a mystical> religion,  that  being Friends (Quakers).  We 
had a schism back in the> early  1800's  here  in  
the  states  and  my  family  ended up on the> 
"Hicksite"  side  of  the  thing.  Outwardly 
conservative and inwardly> liberal.  Hicks once stated the 
following:> > "Now I want these things to sink deep into the heart 
of every age, sex> and  condition.   Be willing to 
investigate for yourselves; don't mind> what I say, or what any one else 
may say, but bring things home to the> truth in your own bosoms; turn 
them over and over, and see if there is> not  something  
in  them  worthy of preservation--and if there is not,> 
leave  them.   I say, I want you to investigate for yourselves; 
for we> have  that liberty, in this land of liberty.  We have a 
right to think> for  ourselves,  about  what we know to be 
the truth in ourselves, and> nothing  but  the truth...Oh! 
then, that we may become willing to turn> inward  to  
what  the  light  makes  manifest...Whatsoever is wrong 
is> reproved  by  this light, and all things that are 
reproveable we know,> for  they  are  made  
manifest  by  the light;  clearly so.  And it is> 
reasonable  to  conclude  that  without  light,  
nothing  can  be made> manifest.   But  
when  we  come into the light of the Lord, all things> 
will  be  made  manifest,  when  the mind is willing, 
and the heart is> disposed  to  receive God in the way of his 
coming.  I feel earnest in> my  desires for us, that we may 
this evening lay these things properly> to  heart. I hope you will 
take these things home, my friends, and not> be hasty in deciding, but 
turn them over in your minds, and if you can> find any thing in them, 
well, and if not leave them." (Gould 1830)> > If  this isn't 
the mystical equivalent of the scientific method then I> will eat my hat 
(either straw or felt).> > It  uses  operational  
terms,  allows for experimental duplication and> 
repeatability,  calls  for  emperical  observation and 
induction, uses> analytic-synthetic  thinki

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[Michael Friebel]

Hi Mary;

"I've found curiosity in many things and have always
enjoyed the "wondering" process my mind can take."

Curiosity, wonderment, & imagination are some of the
most wonderful things that we experience, being not
only productive but probably essential, and really add
something of great beauty to life.  I am not
advocating the closure of doors; the possibilites are
always there (in an ironic sense, our inability to
know certainty keeps the wonder alive).  What I am
saying is that it is most beneficial to only ascribe a
degree of truth to an idea that is warranted by the
only objective measure we have: the evidence.  Every
idea must merit its status & any idea must be allowed
to fall accordingly.  It's the only way we will be
able to best understand our lives, which we must
before we can best manage them.  

Your example of the pet behavior is a completely valid
question that we should strive to understand & to
which we could easily apply science.  And, you are
right that outright dismissing such a phenomenon would
be to discard some of that wonderment & curiosity that
is so important in our lives.  The same goes for your
description of the coastal animals who seemed to
presage the Indian Ocean tsunami, which I had read &
wondered about.

"Reliable conclusions have existed through out our
existence.  That is the reason we survived.  Those
that reached unreliable conclusions can be counted
among the extinct."

That's exactly true & well said.

"Science has it's place but equally the wonder of the
mystics also need to be acknowledged."

I don't think science can or does degrade wonder.  It
revels & thrives in it, and it does slowly chip away
at what exactly we can so easily wonder about, often
to only reveal more mysteries than we began with, but
it does not close doors to what it cannot or has not
explained, or even to what it has explained.  It is
merely a method that allows us to choose the best
explanations given our current knowledge.  There will
always be reason to wonder.

Mike 

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Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[Thomas Kelly]

Marylynn,
 A friend recently told me of a book dealing with the very thing you are 
speaking about; he referred to "morphic fields".
 The reason the book came up is because we were talking about my dog. I 
have a dog that gets very agitated several minutes before a particular 
person even comes into sight on her walk past my house. My dog's response to 
other people range from total indifference to barking with tail wagging. 
This happens when they are in the driveway, or at least in sight.
  Recently a young man stopped by to see my biodiesel setup. He is a 
veterinarian. As he played with my dog I told him about "the walker" as we 
call her. She thinks the dog is ferocious. He just laughed at the idea. He 
said the dog is friendly/playful, not ferocious.
  A few minutes later my dog began to pace and become agitated. We were 
outside. My visitor asked what's going on? I had seen this numerous times 
before. I said that the woman is coming. He looked up the road. There was 
nobody in sight. There was little/no breeze, and what little there was was 
blowing in the direction the woman was coming from.
 The vet. found it "very interesting". My dog was getting agitated. When 
this happens I play with her to distract her; to calm her down.
 It was a full 5 minutes later that we saw the woman approaching, still 
more than a quarter of a mile away.
 By the time the woman passed in front of the house my dog was barking, 
and the fur on her back was up. The veterinarian, raised and trained in 
Europe, wanted to talk to the woman   find out if she's on any 
medications/diagnosed with any psychological/emotional disorders, etc. I 
told him "Not a good idea." "We don't get along." He simply commented that 
"the dog is saying a something about her."

 A woman in our town has a "seizure dog". It lets her know before she 
has an epileptic siezure. She takes it into the market, post office, etc. 
the way a blind person may have a "seeing eye dog." Dogs are able to detect 
certain cancers earlier than standard medical diagnosis. These may involve 
their sense of smell.
 I haven't gotten a good scientific explanation of my dog's behavior 
towards the "walker". It happens whether the dog is inside or out. She (the 
dog) seems to be getting a bit less responsive as she gets older (turned 2 
in June).
 To re-iterate a line from Mike D.   "I don't know."
 Tom

- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marylynn Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
WasTestimonials as Evidence)


> I've found curiosity in many things and have always enjoyed the 
> "wondering"
> process my mind can take.
>
> Anyone who has ever lived with a pet perhaps has wondered why the animal 
> is
> always waiting at the door when they have returned home.  There have been
> many varying answers down to and including sight, scent, feelings of
> physical vibrations relating to how the animal knows.
>
> There was a filmed test done that was televised.  This test was repeated
> many times with many different people and their animals.
>
> Basically, the human was taken away by a "controller" .. This controller
> made all the decisions as to where they went, how long they stayed out, 
> the
> route and method of returning home.
>
> This was filmed by a 3rd person with a camcorder.
>
> At the house, a second camcorder had been set up that gave a fairly wide
> view of the room and the approach to the front door.
>
> What the film showed was the animal sleeping, eating, drinking from it's
> water bowl .. doing what our animals do when we are not at home.
>
> At the exact moment (side by side timers on the 2 separate camcorders) 
> when
> the "controller" announced that "now we are going home", the animal would
> get up and go and sit by the front door.
>
> Now I can imagine that someone could very well be jumping up and down
> screaming that "that isn't science" .. and if that were to happen, I could
> only speculate that they would be missing a vital portion of what life has
> to offer.
>
> Shortly after the massive tsunami left thousands dead and lying on the
> beaches one of the things that was noted and announced but with very 
> little
> (if any) follow up was the fact that there were no bodies of the wild
> animals .. and very few stray animals were found .. nor was there any harm
> done to those peoples who lived and followed their tribal ways .. these
> people had started moving inland and to higher ground as much as a week in
>

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[Marylynn Schmidt]

I've found curiosity in many things and have always enjoyed the "wondering" 
process my mind can take.


Anyone who has ever lived with a pet perhaps has wondered why the animal is 
always waiting at the door when they have returned home.  There have been 
many varying answers down to and including sight, scent, feelings of 
physical vibrations relating to how the animal knows.


There was a filmed test done that was televised.  This test was repeated 
many times with many different people and their animals.


Basically, the human was taken away by a "controller" .. This controller 
made all the decisions as to where they went, how long they stayed out, the 
route and method of returning home.


This was filmed by a 3rd person with a camcorder.

At the house, a second camcorder had been set up that gave a fairly wide 
view of the room and the approach to the front door.


What the film showed was the animal sleeping, eating, drinking from it's 
water bowl .. doing what our animals do when we are not at home.


At the exact moment (side by side timers on the 2 separate camcorders) when 
the "controller" announced that "now we are going home", the animal would 
get up and go and sit by the front door.


Now I can imagine that someone could very well be jumping up and down 
screaming that "that isn't science" .. and if that were to happen, I could 
only speculate that they would be missing a vital portion of what life has 
to offer.


Shortly after the massive tsunami left thousands dead and lying on the 
beaches one of the things that was noted and announced but with very little 
(if any) follow up was the fact that there were no bodies of the wild 
animals .. and very few stray animals were found .. nor was there any harm 
done to those peoples who lived and followed their tribal ways .. these 
people had started moving inland and to higher ground as much as a week in 
advanced.


Reliable conclusions have existed through out our existence.  That is the 
reason we survived.  Those that reached unreliable conclusions can be 
counted among the extinct.


I have had the honor of knowing an individual who was given the technical 
writing job(s) of projects far beyond any technical writing abilities he 
had.


He was given the jobs with unreasonable time frames and this was done, in my 
opinion, to discredit him and have him lose his "devoted" following with the 
clients.


I understood what he was doing when he would have a 2 week time frame to 
complete a project for final review.  If he had 2 weeks he would walk the 
halls for 1.5 of those weeks and sit down and write fairly straight for 3 
days .. one time, no corrections, no revisions .. and it was done and it was 
done far beyond the clients hopes and/or expectations.


Science has it's place but equally the wonder of the mystics also need to be 
acknowledged.


Mary Lynn
Rev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained Minister
ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART
TTouch . Reiki . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Animal Behavior Modification . 
Shamanic Spiritual Travel . Behavior Problems . Psionic Energy Practitioner 
. Radionics . Herbs . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . Polarity .

The Animal Connection Healing Modalities
http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/
http://allcreatureconnections.org






From: Michael Friebel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
WasTestimonials as Evidence)

Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:15:28 -0700 (PDT)

"…but I am also a sceptic of the idea that science is
the be all and end all or that it has all the
answers.”

So then, what other epistemic method do we have from
which to form reliable conclusions?  It may be that it
is the definition/scope of science that is in question
here.  I claim that there is no epistemic method that
does not rely upon verifiable experience.  I also
claim that the reliability of any conclusion is solely
dependent upon & proportional to the amount of
empirical support garnered.  What method is there that
isn’t empirical?  How can the reliability of a
proposition vary without regard to empirical support?

It is an understatement that science does not have all
the answers, but we have achieved grandly by it and
there is no competition to be found.  In that sense,
it is the end-all, be-all.

“All I am suggesting to Bob is that even though
science cannot explain something at the present time,
that does not mean it must necessarily be rejected."

While it must be rejected as proven true, it does not
need to be rejected outright and be considered false.
Instead, it needs to be viewed as a possibly false &
unreliable proposition that could be dangerous if
relied upon, depending on the evidence available & the
context.  That brings up a critical point: context.  I
would not cross a street without looking rega

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[M&K DuPree]

Love your sense of humor D, ie Bob's love of data etc at times being "awe 
inspiring."  But Bob might consider your comments awful.  It's 4am as I 
write this, and I'm awfully tired.  Mike DuPree

- Original Message - 
From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 2:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
WasTestimonials as Evidence)


> Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who can 
> be
> bought to produce desired
> outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained to
> run computer
> models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate more
> closely to
> reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard.
> Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour knowledge
> into hung-over
> college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is 
> awe
> inspiring at times.
> Peace, D. Mindock
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia Was
> Testimonials as Evidence)
>
>
>> Hi Kurt;
>>
>> Pardon my snipping style but.
>>
>> Kurt Nolte wrote:
>> snip
>>
>>>
>>>On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry
>>>Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my head.
>>>These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming that
>>>herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly
>>>efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharmaceuticals produced by
>>>synthetic processes just don't hack it.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Actually I don't believe I ever said that!  I am opposing Bob to some
>> degree but that doesn't mean I said what you are attributing to me, or I
>> guess more correctly that you should be lumping me in with what you are
>> saying about the others.  I am very scientifically inclined, I run a
>> university lab for pete's sake as well but I am also a sceptic of the
>> idea that science is the be all and end all or that it has all the
>> answers.  I still have great respect for science and believe that one
>> day it may encompass things that it currently can't explain.  All I am
>> suggesting to Bob is that even though science cannot explain something
>> at the present time, that does not mean it must necessarily be
>> rejected.  I think this is the only point on which Bob and I are in
>> dissagreement.  I also wouldn't say it is fair to be calling Bob closed
>> minded.  Stubborn yes but narrow or closed minded, no.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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>
> 



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