Re: [Biofuel] Washing
my problem is emulsion.. i guess just just have to practice a few more times, and also allow longer reaction time (more than 24 hrs) before washing.. Thanks, On 1/9/07, Tonomár András <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What is your real problem? > Yre you getting emulsion? or draining problem? > Andrew > > > > > Hey Andrew, > > Thanks for the info and advice.. > > I will work harder.. > > > On 1/8/07, Tonomár András <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hello Joe, > > > > My experience is that I get about 96%-100% yield for the whole process. > > In your terms 100ml VWO - 96ml finished BD > > I wash 5 times stirring with a paint stirrer. > > If you are carefull then you dont use BD during the wash. (at least you > > should not) > > What you loose is contaminents like soaps, exess methanol, free glycerin > > etc. > > > > The best advise to say for you is to practice, and info will come. > > This you can read about for hours, but without doing it you will never > > learn. > > > > Everyone makes mistakes, that is how we learn. > > > > Email if you have questions. > > Andrew > > > > > > > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > > > If i use, say, 100ml of BD and add 50 ml of hot water for washing > > > (stir for 15 mins), will i get back 100ml of washed BD or less? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Joe N. > > > > > > ___ > > > Biofuel mailing list > > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > messages): > > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > ___ > > Biofuel mailing list > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Washing
What is your real problem? Yre you getting emulsion? or draining problem? Andrew Hey Andrew, Thanks for the info and advice.. I will work harder.. On 1/8/07, Tonomár András <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello Joe, > > My experience is that I get about 96%-100% yield for the whole process. > In your terms 100ml VWO - 96ml finished BD > I wash 5 times stirring with a paint stirrer. > If you are carefull then you dont use BD during the wash. (at least you > should not) > What you loose is contaminents like soaps, exess methanol, free glycerin > etc. > > The best advise to say for you is to practice, and info will come. > This you can read about for hours, but without doing it you will never > learn. > > Everyone makes mistakes, that is how we learn. > > Email if you have questions. > Andrew > > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > If i use, say, 100ml of BD and add 50 ml of hot water for washing > > (stir for 15 mins), will i get back 100ml of washed BD or less? > > > > Thanks, > > Joe N. > > > > ___ > > Biofuel mailing list > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Washing
Hey Andrew, Thanks for the info and advice.. I will work harder.. On 1/8/07, Tonomár András <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello Joe, > > My experience is that I get about 96%-100% yield for the whole process. > In your terms 100ml VWO - 96ml finished BD > I wash 5 times stirring with a paint stirrer. > If you are carefull then you dont use BD during the wash. (at least you > should not) > What you loose is contaminents like soaps, exess methanol, free glycerin > etc. > > The best advise to say for you is to practice, and info will come. > This you can read about for hours, but without doing it you will never > learn. > > Everyone makes mistakes, that is how we learn. > > Email if you have questions. > Andrew > > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > If i use, say, 100ml of BD and add 50 ml of hot water for washing > > (stir for 15 mins), will i get back 100ml of washed BD or less? > > > > Thanks, > > Joe N. > > > > ___ > > Biofuel mailing list > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Washing
Hello Joe, My experience is that I get about 96%-100% yield for the whole process. In your terms 100ml VWO - 96ml finished BD I wash 5 times stirring with a paint stirrer. If you are carefull then you dont use BD during the wash. (at least you should not) What you loose is contaminents like soaps, exess methanol, free glycerin etc. The best advise to say for you is to practice, and info will come. This you can read about for hours, but without doing it you will never learn. Everyone makes mistakes, that is how we learn. Email if you have questions. Andrew > Hi guys, > > If i use, say, 100ml of BD and add 50 ml of hot water for washing > (stir for 15 mins), will i get back 100ml of washed BD or less? > > Thanks, > Joe N. > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Washing
On Jan 5, 2007, at 11:31 PM, Joe Neo wrote: > > If i use, say, 100ml of BD and add 50 ml of hot water for washing > (stir for 15 mins), will i get back 100ml of washed BD or less? > There should be very little if any volume loss. The actual volumes of soap and methanol that will be washed out are small. OTOH, if you create any emulsion during the wash, you can lose a LOT. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Washing
Hi guys, If i use, say, 100ml of BD and add 50 ml of hot water for washing (stir for 15 mins), will i get back 100ml of washed BD or less? Thanks, Joe N. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Washing FFAs
On Sat, 2006-08-26 at 09:39 -0400, Thomas Kelly wrote: > > I don't know what you ask about using FFA in place of castor oil to > distill ethanol. Do you mean to dehydrate the ethanol? > Tom > > i > > also wonder if the ffa content can be used in place of castor oil to > > distill ethanol...another thing to look into. > > Tom, yes, i have been playing with ethanol purification, because i would like to start a biofuel refinery (oil, ethy, BD, and methane, think circular) in my hometown and ethy will dissolve in castor, or water but not both, making a water barrier which allows ethy to pass by, giving 99.5% or better ethy. it appears that- if handled properly- the proper kind of ffa's will perform in a similar fashion, giving yet another use for ffa's. jason > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Washing FFAs
Jason & Katie, Yes, glycerine does dissolve in water and FFAs don't. That's why I was at a loss to explain why a small amount of FFAs in glycerine should separate easily while the FFA split from the glycerine cocktail ... with a small amount of glycerine formed an emulsion. The FFAs seem to be very similar to BD in that they float on water, but the presence of glycerine -> emulsions that can be broken w. heat or acid. My hope is that the first wash will remove the glycerine and subsequent washes will be easier. FFAs may simply form emulsions in water. They have a region of charge that is replaced by a methyl group (uncharged) in BD. This region of charge may allow sufficient interaction w water > emulsions. I don't know what you ask about using FFA in place of castor oil to distill ethanol. Do you mean to dehydrate the ethanol? Tom - Original Message - From: "Jason & Katie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Washing FFAs > its because of that "difference in miscibility" i bet. ill have to look > to be sure, but i think with glycerine being an alcohol, and ffa being a > lipid that the glycerine will dissolve in the water, but ffa's do not. i > also wonder if the ffa content can be used in place of castor oil to > distill ethanol...another thing to look into. > > On Fri, 2006-08-25 at 14:47 -0400, Thomas Kelly wrote: >> Hello all, >> I have been hoping to burn the FFAs split from the glycerine >> cocktail to help heat my house. My oil fired furnace is currently >> running on B-100. My plan is to add about 5% FFA. >> Early attempts have produced coking of the electrodes. >> I suspect that some glycerine remains w the FFAs. >> I mix the glycerine component w water and add it to my compost >> piles. I noticed that any FFA in the mix floats to the top almost >> immediately. I have tried washing the FFA with water ... as in >> washing BD. I get an emulsion that is very slow to separate unless I >> heat it considerably. >> >> Question #1: Does anyone burn FFA in their oil fired burners? >> >> Question #2: Why does the FFA separate quickly in my glycerine/water >> mix, but slowly when mixed with just water? I would think it should be >> the other way around. >> >>Tom >> ___ >> Biofuel mailing list >> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >> messages): >> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Washing FFAs
Ken, It seems to have worked. A small amount of HCl and the emulsion is breaking. The glycerine destined for the compost pile had been split w. H3PO4. The pH was raised w. ammonia, but I'm sure it was still 6.0 or lower. Maybe that is why it separated easier. Thanks for the help Tom - Original Message - From: Ken Provost To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Washing FFAs On Aug 25, 2006, at 11:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: Question #2: Why does the FFA separate quickly in my glycerine/water mix, but slowly when mixed with just water? Not sure, but if you slightly acidify your hot wash water (hydrochloric, acetic even) it will help suppress emulsification. -K ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Washing FFAs
its because of that "difference in miscibility" i bet. ill have to look to be sure, but i think with glycerine being an alcohol, and ffa being a lipid that the glycerine will dissolve in the water, but ffa's do not. i also wonder if the ffa content can be used in place of castor oil to distill ethanol...another thing to look into. On Fri, 2006-08-25 at 14:47 -0400, Thomas Kelly wrote: > Hello all, > I have been hoping to burn the FFAs split from the glycerine > cocktail to help heat my house. My oil fired furnace is currently > running on B-100. My plan is to add about 5% FFA. > Early attempts have produced coking of the electrodes. > I suspect that some glycerine remains w the FFAs. > I mix the glycerine component w water and add it to my compost > piles. I noticed that any FFA in the mix floats to the top almost > immediately. I have tried washing the FFA with water ... as in > washing BD. I get an emulsion that is very slow to separate unless I > heat it considerably. > > Question #1: Does anyone burn FFA in their oil fired burners? > > Question #2: Why does the FFA separate quickly in my glycerine/water > mix, but slowly when mixed with just water? I would think it should be > the other way around. > >Tom > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Washing FFAs
Thanks Ken. I'll give it a try. Tom - Original Message - From: Ken Provost To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Washing FFAs On Aug 25, 2006, at 11:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: Question #2: Why does the FFA separate quickly in my glycerine/water mix, but slowly when mixed with just water? Not sure, but if you slightly acidify your hot wash water (hydrochloric, acetic even) it will help suppress emulsification. -K ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Washing FFAs
On Aug 25, 2006, at 11:47 AM, Thomas Kelly wrote: Question #2: Why does the FFA separate quickly in my glycerine/water mix,but slowly when mixed with just water? Not sure, but if you slightly acidify your hot wash water (hydrochloric, acetic even)it will help suppress emulsification.-K___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Washing FFAs
Hello all, I have been hoping to burn the FFAs split from the glycerine cocktail to help heat my house. My oil fired furnace is currently running on B-100. My plan is to add about 5% FFA. Early attempts have produced coking of the electrodes. I suspect that some glycerine remains w the FFAs. I mix the glycerine component w water and add it to my compost piles. I noticed that any FFA in the mix floats to the top almost immediately. I have tried washing the FFA with water ... as in washing BD. I get an emulsion that is very slow to separate unless I heat it considerably. Question #1: Does anyone burn FFA in their oil fired burners? Question #2: Why does the FFA separate quickly in my glycerine/water mix, but slowly when mixed with just water? I would think it should be the other way around. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Washing
Hi Tom >Charles, > I've been separating the glycerin mix prior to washing. After much >tweaking I am finally making BD that washes easily and passes quality tests. > I have plans for the glycerin mix. Now that the weather is warming up I >plan to use phosphoric acid to split the mix into Fatty Acids, Crude >Glycerin, and Potassium Phosphate. > I've been burning a BD30 blend to heat my house this past winter. Over >the past week I've bumped it up and yesterday got BD100 to keep burning in >my furnace. >(Still have my fingers crossed). I hope to blend the fatty acids recovered >into the heating fuel for next year. Heat my house on a BD100/fatty acid >blend. > Just completed the methanol recovery unit. Hope to get some methanol >back from the crude glycerin. > Am in the early stages of planning ethanol distillation >. have the application for a permit, looking at plans for the still, >etc. I'll look at adding glycerin to the mash in the fermenter > >ethanol. If this goes kaput, I have a large garden and use tons of compost. >Neutralizing the glycerin w. ammonia should give me glycerin w. potassium >and ammonium phosphate . a welcome addition to a hot compost pile. > My point is that I see value in the glycerin coproduct. >I may be wrong, but it would seem to lose its value if it was washed out >before separation. I agree. As Ken said it makes methanol recovery more difficult, it might also make FFA separation more difficult, and it wouldn't burn very well either. I don't see the need if you're making good fuel that washes easily anyway. For us washing is easy and our fuel tests within the standard specs so I can't see any advantage in using the glycerine wash, only disadvantages. But, to each his own. Our situation has quite a lot in common with yours and we view the by-product in much the same way. Also interested in using it as part feedstock for a methane digester. Best Keith >It reminds me of the notion of growing a crop to make BD >(or ethanol) and not utilizing the seedcake (or mash) produced by the >process for animal feed. >Tom >- Original Message - >From: "Charles List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: >Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 4:10 AM >Subject: [Biofuel] Washing > > > > Hi all > > > > I've been doing a bit of research as I begin to up-scale my > > processing and I see that the University of Idaho published a report > > on biodiesel production where they wash the combined glycerol/ methyl > > ester mixture before separation, saying that this improves the > > effectiveness of further washing. They are talking about the ethanol > > trans-esterification method, but I was wondering whether anyone had > > tried this with the methanol method and could tell me how effective > > it is. > > > > Best Regards > > > > Charles List ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Washing
On Mar 30, 2006, at 1:10 AM, Charles List wrote:I've been doing a bit of research as I begin to up-scale my processing and I see that the University of Idaho published areport on biodiesel production where they wash the combinedglycerol/ methyl ester mixture before separation, saying that thisimproves the effectiveness of further washing. They are talkingabout the ethanol transesterification method, but I was wonderingwhether anyone had tried this with the methanol method andcould tell me how effective it is.Very effective -- I use it almost every batch, methanol or ethanol.The so-called "glycerine wash" step, which must be done gently,allows a lot of the soaps and alkali to be taken into the aqueous(glycerine) phase prior to separating the biodiesel off the top.The reason to do this is that the presence of glycerine duringthe first wash greatly inhibits the formation of emulsions, allowingyour subsequent water-only washes to proceed much morequickly. I use hot water, approx. 1.5l for every 10l of oil -- i.e.,a 10l batch of oil which would normally give a 1l glycerine layernow gives 2.5l of mixed glycerine-water.The only disadvantage is for people who want to recover excessalcohol from the glycerine layer, since you need to use a fraction-ating column to separate out the water you added. I believe mosthomebrewers are still not recovering excess alcohol, so I reallydon't know why more people don't use this step. I preach its virtuesconstantly :-)-K___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Washing
Charles, I've been separating the glycerin mix prior to washing. After much tweaking I am finally making BD that washes easily and passes quality tests. I have plans for the glycerin mix. Now that the weather is warming up I plan to use phosphoric acid to split the mix into Fatty Acids, Crude Glycerin, and Potassium Phosphate. I've been burning a BD30 blend to heat my house this past winter. Over the past week I've bumped it up and yesterday got BD100 to keep burning in my furnace. (Still have my fingers crossed). I hope to blend the fatty acids recovered into the heating fuel for next year. Heat my house on a BD100/fatty acid blend. Just completed the methanol recovery unit. Hope to get some methanol back from the crude glycerin. Am in the early stages of planning ethanol distillation . have the application for a permit, looking at plans for the still, etc. I'll look at adding glycerin to the mash in the fermenter > ethanol. If this goes kaput, I have a large garden and use tons of compost. Neutralizing the glycerin w. ammonia should give me glycerin w. potassium and ammonium phosphate . a welcome addition to a hot compost pile. My point is that I see value in the glycerin coproduct. I may be wrong, but it would seem to lose its value if it was washed out before separation. It reminds me of the notion of growing a crop to make BD (or ethanol) and not utilizing the seedcake (or mash) produced by the process for animal feed. Tom - Original Message - From: "Charles List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 4:10 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Washing > Hi all > > I've been doing a bit of research as I begin to up-scale my > processing and I see that the University of Idaho published a report > on biodiesel production where they wash the combined glycerol/ methyl > ester mixture before separation, saying that this improves the > effectiveness of further washing. They are talking about the ethanol > trans-esterification method, but I was wondering whether anyone had > tried this with the methanol method and could tell me how effective > it is. > > Best Regards > > Charles List ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Washing
Hi Charles >Hi all > >I've been doing a bit of research as I begin to up-scale my >processing and I see that the University of Idaho published a report >on biodiesel production It's here: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethyl_esters.html Optimization of a Batch Type Ethyl Ester Process Charles Peterson, Gregory Möller, Randall Haws, Xiulin Zhang, Joseph Thompson and Daryl Reece From: "Ethyl Ester Process Scale-up and Biodegradability of Biodiesel" FINAL REPORT, No. 303, November 1996 For the United States Department of Agriculture, Cooperative State Research Service, Cooperative Agreement No. 93-COOP-1-8627 University of Idaho, College of Agriculture It's an old paper, 1996, first reffed here in 2000, on our site since 2001 after NREL dumped it. >where they wash the combined glycerol/ methyl >ester mixture before separation, saying that this improves the >effectiveness of further washing. They are talking about the ethanol >trans-esterification method, but I was wondering whether anyone had >tried this with the methanol method and could tell me how effective >it is. People have tried it, it's been discussed here before. Ken Provost uses it but he makes ethyl esters, not methyl esters. Others have said it doesn't work for them, and others yet say it does work for them. No two operations (or operators) are the same. I did some tests with it and didn't find any advantage, so it wasn't worth the bother. If you can make biodiesel without doing this that passes the wash test and the other quality checks then what's the point of doing it? On the other hand, if your biodiesel doesn't pass the quality tests then trying to make washing easier won't solve the problem and I don't think "pre-cleaning" it this way will either. Surely it's better to learn to make biodiesel that does pass the tests. That leaves the people who do make quality fuel with good completion that passes the tests and who do use a glycerol remix to advantage, if they're there maybe we'll hear from them. Best Keith >Best Regards > >Charles List > >-- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Washing
Hi all I've been doing a bit of research as I begin to up-scale my processing and I see that the University of Idaho published a report on biodiesel production where they wash the combined glycerol/ methyl ester mixture before separation, saying that this improves the effectiveness of further washing. They are talking about the ethanol trans-esterification method, but I was wondering whether anyone had tried this with the methanol method and could tell me how effective it is. Best Regards Charles List -- -- This email was sent using Telecom SchoolZone. www.schoolzone.net.nz This email has been scanned for viruses by Telecom SchoolZone, but is not guaranteed to be virus-free. -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Washing machine pumps
I have just trialed a washing machine pump. It went fine no problems until the following morning when I found it leaking from the main seal. As it didn't leak through until the following day could the BD damage the seals that fast Cheers Ian ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] washing method
>Keith >FYI >It's not a McDonald's mixing machine. It is the design of the soda >company. In the old days we use to put some Coke syrup in a glass >and then add soda water (hence ... the SODA FOUNTAIN). >I guess I'm dated now. LOL >Roy Hey, I remember that. You could make it at home too, people had soda bottles with little gas cylinders that carbonated the water. The empty CO2 canisters were the basis of the local kids' bomb-making efforts, quite impressive. Dated, eh? Maybe you're right, nostalgia's not what it used to be. :-) Best wishes Keith >Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Hello John > > >would it be possible to add water to the outlet pipe of biodiesel > >reactor while transferring it to the wash tank and then just letting > >it settle. something like the same way coke syrup and soda water is > >mixed in a restaurant or MC Donall's. > >Could be worth a try, though I don't know anything about McDonald's >methods of mixing their deadly liquids. > >I've no idea how well it might mix, and it'll only do your first >wash, it'll still need another two washes or more which you can't do >that way, so it might not be worth the effort. > >If you do try it, please let us know the results. > >Best wishes > >Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] washing method
You could make the outlet pipe some type of static mixer or a mix tube. We use these at work to blend liquids that are pumped through them when no other means of mixing is possible. Bobby >From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing method >Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:28:53 +0900 > >Hello John > > >would it be possible to add water to the outlet pipe of biodiesel > >reactor while transferring it to the wash tank and then just letting > >it settle. something like the same way coke syrup and soda water is > >mixed in a restaurant or MC Donall's. > >Could be worth a try, though I don't know anything about McDonald's >methods of mixing their deadly liquids. > >I've no idea how well it might mix, and it'll only do your first >wash, it'll still need another two washes or more which you can't do >that way, so it might not be worth the effort. > >If you do try it, please let us know the results. > >Best wishes > >Keith > > >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] washing method
Keith FYI It's not a McDonald's mixing machine. It is the design of the soda company. In the old days we use to put some Coke syrup in a glass and then add soda water (hence ... the SODA FOUNTAIN). I guess I'm dated now. LOLRoy Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello John>would it be possible to add water to the outlet pipe of biodiesel >reactor while transferring it to the wash tank and then just letting >it settle. something like the same way coke syrup and soda water is >mixed in a restaurant or MC Donall's.Could be worth a try, though I don't know anything about McDonald's methods of mixing their deadly liquids.I've no idea how well it might mix, and it'll only do your first wash, it'll still need another two washes or more which you can't do that way, so it might not be worth the effort.If you do try it, please let us know the results.Best wishesKeith___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] washing method
Keith Addison wrote: >Could be worth a try, though I don't know anything about McDonald's >methods of mixing their deadly liquids. > > Nice one! " The candy man can cause he mixes it with love and makes the world go round" ROFLMAO! Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] washing method
Hello John >would it be possible to add water to the outlet pipe of biodiesel >reactor while transferring it to the wash tank and then just letting >it settle. something like the same way coke syrup and soda water is >mixed in a restaurant or MC Donall's. Could be worth a try, though I don't know anything about McDonald's methods of mixing their deadly liquids. I've no idea how well it might mix, and it'll only do your first wash, it'll still need another two washes or more which you can't do that way, so it might not be worth the effort. If you do try it, please let us know the results. Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] washing method
would it be possible to add water to the outlet pipe of biodiesel reactor while transferring it to the wash tank and then just letting it settle. something like the same way coke syrup and soda water is mixed in a restaurant or MC Donall's. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] washing was: sealed wash tank was: emulsion wash test
Hi Todd Pieter, It did at the beginning of the thread. And is again (thankyou!), despite diversions. So after gently stir washing the biodiesel (with a low tech piece of wood trim) with about half part water as fuel I let it settle 24 hours and drained off the milky water. I was happy to discover no emulsion. Good! Just a tip: it'd probably help if the water was hot. I took Kieth's advice and tried Jan Warnqvist's quality test and found some small dots and granular size impurities sitting at the bottom of the jar. I think it would add up to 1 ml or less of impurities. This was after one wash remember. I can post a picture if anyone would find it useful. Can't post pictures, list computer says no. Please send it to me direct, there's a folder at the JtF site for the list, I can put it there and post the link. I also did another quality test by placing 150 ml of equal parts fuel and water and it separated cleanly in less than 30 minutes. So I decided it was safe to bulk wash it vigorously with a paint mixer and I'll let you know how it turns out after the wash last night. Hopefully after 4 total washes I can dry the fuel. Please let us know, and maybe I could upload more pictures of it if you like. Please remember that I am a beginner and this is my first large batch. I feel like I have learned a lot in past couple of days. Hopefully next time I can get the reaction complete. I think you're doing just fine, I hope you're not feeling discouraged, please don't be. Best wishes Keith Thanks for the help. I am staying very clear of the fumes that exit the wash drum. My wash tank will be sealed next time. Thanks, Todd On Aug 17, 2005, at 3:23 PM, Pieter Koole wrote: With permission : The whole discussion has nothing to do with emulsion wash test. Met vriendelijke groet, Pieter Koole ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] washing was: sealed wash tank was: emulsion wash test
Pieter,It did at the beginning of the thread. So after gently stir washing the biodiesel (with a low tech piece of wood trim) with about half part water as fuel I let it settle 24 hours and drained off the milky water. I was happy to discover no emulsion. I took Kieth's advice and tried Jan Warnqvist's quality test and found some small dots and granular size impurities sitting at the bottom of the jar. I think it would add up to 1 ml or less of impurities. This was after one wash remember. I can post a picture if anyone would find it useful.I also did another quality test by placing 150 ml of equal parts fuel and water and it separated cleanly in less than 30 minutes. So I decided it was safe to bulk wash it vigorously with a paint mixer and I'll let you know how it turns out after the wash last night. Hopefully after 4 total washes I can dry the fuel.Please remember that I am a beginner and this is my first large batch. I feel like I have learned a lot in past couple of days. Hopefully next time I can get the reaction complete.Thanks for the help. I am staying very clear of the fumes that exit the wash drum. My wash tank will be sealed next time.Thanks,ToddOn Aug 17, 2005, at 3:23 PM, Pieter Koole wrote:With permission :The whole discussion has nothing to do with emulsion wash test.Met vriendelijke groet,Pieter Koole___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
Hi Joe, Well, first of all you need an anerobic digestor. The folks in India are perhaps the world leaders in this type of technology at the farm level. The simpliest one I've seen is taking 28 meters of, I think it was, 3 mil plastic bagging material Not Indian. This type of digester was developed by Reg Preston and others in Latin America. It's one type of digester, whether it's the most suitable type or not for a particular application is another matter. http://www.fao.org/WAICENT/FAOINFO/AGRICULT/AGA/AGAP/FRG/Recycle/biodi g/manual.htm Biodigester installation manual Lylian Rodriguez and T R Preston University of Tropical Agriculture Foundation Finca Ecologica, University of Agriculture and Forestry, Thu Duc, Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam http://www.ias.unu.edu/proceedings/icibs/ibs/info/ecuador/install-polydig.htm HOW TO INSTALL A POLYETHYLENE BIOGAS PLANT By Francisco X. Aguilar Agronomic Engineer MSc Sustainable Agricultural Systems The Royal Agricultural College Cirencester This is an excellent resource, from the German Appropriate Technology and Ecoefficiency Programme (GATE): http://www5.gtz.de/gate/techinfo/biogas/toc.html AT Information - Biogas Digest: Index and pulling one end inside out so you have a double layer of plastic bagging 14 meters long. You dig a level ditch and put the bag into it. Tap the bag with a pipe that you can seal easily. You pipe it to the system you want to have the fuel. You fill it with a mixure of water and horse or cow manure. This stuff has plenty of anaerobic bacteria in it then you let it go to work for you. After everything is up and producing gas from animal dung, you drip feed 50 to 100 mls of the glycerine per day for about 8 weeks. The bacterial culture should adapt to it and then you can perhaps add a liter a day. Watch your gas production. You could produce more gas than you want or can store. Use truck inner tubes. An engineer can run calcualtions to let you know your exact maximum loading depending on your daily use. No need. Some of our Indian friends online here can point you in the exact direction with plans etc. and it's probably in the archives somewhere. Naturally! Biogas developments in Nepal might be more applicable. I suggest a search on anaerobic digestors. Since glycerine has three carbons per molecule you can get a maximum gas yield of three units of methane or CO2. You miss the crucial point that the by-product from home biodiesel production is not only glycerine, it qalso contains the lye catalyst and lots of soap, if not most of the excess methanol too. See yesterday's message: http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 5-August/002675.html [Biofuel] washing? By the way, there were SIX sets of footers on your message, and most of the previous messages were irrelevant. SNIP!!! if you please! Keith But don't forget those three OH groups and 4 hydrogens per molecule. I haven't worked with anaerobic systems for 7 years. I don't remember if they will form water, free hydrogen gas or if sulfur is present hydrogen sulfide. The water of course won't burn but both H2 and H2S will. The H2S will eat up most metal burners. Definitely get more information from someone other than me. This is just a start. Tom Irwin From: Joe Street [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:21:08 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing? Can you give us details on this. Is anyone doing this currently? Joe Tom Irwin wrote: Hi all, For those of you that needs it, the glycerol can also be converted via anaerobic digestor to methane for stoves and boilers. Not such a good idea for city folk but on the farm it should be fine. Tom Irwin ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
Hi Joe, Well, first of all you need an anerobic digestor. The folks in India are perhaps the world leaders in this type of technology at the farm level. The simpliest one I've seen is taking 28 meters of, I think it was, 3 mil plastic bagging material and pulling one end inside out so you have a double layer of plastic bagging 14 meters long. You dig a level ditch and put the bag into it. Tap the bag with a pipe that you can seal easily. You pipe it to the system you want to have the fuel. You fill it with a mixure of water and horse or cow manure. This stuff has plenty of anaerobic bacteria in it then you let it go to work for you. After everything is up and producing gas from animal dung, you drip feed 50 to 100 mls of the glycerine per day for about 8 weeks. The bacterial culture should adapt to it and then you can perhaps add a liter a day. Watch your gas production. You could produce more gas than you want or can store. An engineer can run calcualtions to let you know your exact maximum loading depending on your daily use. Some of our Indian friends online here can point you in the exact direction with plans etc. and it's probably in the archives somewhere. I suggest a search on anaerobic digestors. Since glycerine has three carbons per molecule you can get a maximum gas yield of three units of methane or CO2. But don't forget those three OH groups and 4 hydrogens per molecule. I haven't worked with anaerobic systems for 7 years. I don't remember if they will form water, free hydrogen gas or if sulfur is present hydrogen sulfide. The water of course won't burn but both H2 and H2S will. The H2S will eat up most metal burners. Definitely get more information from someone other than me. This is just a start. Tom Irwin From: Joe Street [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 10:21:08 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing?Can you give us details on this. Is anyone doing this currently?JoeTom Irwin wrote: Hi all, For those of you that needs it, the glycerol can also be converted via anaerobic digestor to methane for stoves and boilers. Not such a good idea for city folk but on the farm it should be fine. Tom Irwin From: bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:10:31 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing?Howdy Todd, just a tiny correction, lest anybody get confused: Epsom salt is hydrated magnesium _sulfate_ not sulfide. Regardless, your advice is sound as always.Appal Energy wrote:> > His main argument seemed to be against losing the energy in the methanol> >that was washed out> > Why "wash" it out? Why not evaporate it and recover it, even as small a > value as it is, rather than flush it with the wash water?> > I'll leave the energy and bio-accumlation numbers to the slide rule > folks, but in an efficient setup, the energy used to recover the > methanol from the biodiesel fraction can be used to raise the > temperature of the feedstock for the next batch to the reaction level.> > Presume you have a 160* evaporation temperature and the incoming > feedstock is 70*. In a perfect world half of that difference can be > transferred to the incoming oil, raising it to 115*.> > Go one step further when drying washed fuel, which may have a pre-dried > temp of 70*F. The diff between 115* and 70* would raise the fuel back up > to approximately 90*.> > The wash water is not waste, when all is said and done. It's irrigation. > Recover the soaps by using aluminum or magnesium sulfide (epsom salt), > which converts the water soluble soaps to non-soluble greases. These > have an energy content that can be recovered in a solid fuels boiler. > Or, you can grease the axles of your Sunday-go-to-meetin' buggy.> > The water can then be applied as gray water irrigation. The sulfur > content would have to be monitored. But there are crops that tend to > rather like sulfur to a small degree.> > At the same time the recovered catalyst (converted to fertilizer) can be > diluted and dispersed with the gray water.> > That leaves only the glycerol, either to sell or disperse with the > treated wash water, as the recovered FFAs are returned to the acid cycle > or used as boiler fuel.> > Todd Swearingen> > > > skapegoat wrote:> >> I did notice that a lot of the chemistry in the book was wrong.>> >> His main argument seemed to be against losing the energy in the >> methanol that was washed out. He does recommend not using BD with >> certain types of tubes, as the methanol will destroy it.>> >> I am certainly planning on washing my BD, I just wonder if he's had >> any problems in the ten or more years he's been making his without >> washing it.>> >> I know about
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
Can you give us details on this.¬Ý Is anyone doing this currently?
Joe
This message didn't make it into the archives for some reason so I'll
send it again:
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:56:38 +0900
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing?
Hi all,
For those of you that needs it, the glycerol can also be converted
via anaerobic digestor to methane for stoves and boilers. Not such
a good idea for city folk but on the farm it should be fine.
Tom Irwin
A visitor to our website told us this:
"I work at a wastewater treatment plant and I was doing a search on
glycerin and biofuels and came across your website. It has good
information, thanks.
"Here's another use of glycerin: Our treatment is accepting the
glycerin from a biofuel producer, we feed it to our digesters,
slowly very slowly. The addition of glycerin has dramatically
increased our gas production, so that we run all three engines that
produce electricity for our plant and occasionally need to flare off
the excess methane (we have four4 flares).
"This might be of interest to your readers who use digestion for electricity."
The biogas is used as fuel in diesel engines which power electricity
generators. But this glycerin wasn't raw by-product, it was
separated glycerin from a commercial producer:
"The glycerine is agricultural grade and looks similar to thin maple syrup.
"As for pH, since the chemistry in the anaerobic digester is
healthy, a high pH wasn't much of a concern. Our main concern was
foaming with the introduction of glycerin, and we did see an
increase hence the slow feed rate to the digester."
See "Separating glycerine/FFAs":
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html
Can the unseparated by-product, the whole glycerin-catalyst-soap
cocktail, also be used to increase biogas production?
Pannirselvam in Brazil responded:
"Very good news to make the gas and liquid biofuel in an integrated way.
"There are many published papers about the enhanced production of
biogas from oily wastes and glycerine is a good intermediate
metabolite, hence the results agree with theory.
"But here too we need a mixed microbial population to work well and
they will need a lot of adoption time for glycerine, otherwise one
may totally fail to produce gas.
"There are two routes to get energy from waste of the BioDiesel
making process, bioconversion and thermo-conversion. I believe the
combined Biogas generation is better than combustion. The correct
mixture of proteins and glycerine and salt needs to be carefully
solved by practical work."
One factor in that would be that bioconversion via biogas provides
useful by-products and fits very well with a hot composting system,
they're complementary. So you get two sources of heat, gas for
burning and 60 deg C heat in the compost pile for heat exchangers,
plus a lot of excellent fertilizer to grow your biofuels crops.
Integrated, low input, high output.
We'll soon be building biogas digesters here in Tamba (starting with this one:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/MethaneDigesters/MD6.html
Methane Digesters for Fuel Gas and Fertilizer, With Complete
Instructions For Two Working Models, by L. John Fry, Chapter 10:
Building an Inner Tube Digester). Investigating glycerin by-product
digestion will be a priority.
For towns, home-brewers have pointed out that a wastewater treatment
system should be able to handle the glycerin by-product without
problems. It mixes with water, it's biodegradable, and if you
reclaim the excess methanol first, it's non-toxic. As for the lye
and the soap, lye is a drain-cleaner after all, and wastewater
plants are no strangers to soap. Even the methanol might be an
advantage (the bacteria like it).
But don't pour by-product down the drain or the toilet without
checking with your local authority first.
Best wishes
Keith
HTH
Keith
Tom Irwin wrote:
BODY{font:10pt Tahoma, Verdana, sans-serif;}
Hi all,
¬Ý
For those of you that needs it, the glycerol can also¬Ýbe converted
via anaerobic digestor to methane for stoves and boilers. Not such
a good idea for city folk but on the farm it should be fine.
¬Ý
Tom Irwin
___
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Re: [Biofuel] washing?
Can you give us details on this. Is anyone doing this currently? Joe Tom Irwin wrote: Hi all, For those of you that needs it, the glycerol can also be converted via anaerobic digestor to methane for stoves and boilers. Not such a good idea for city folk but on the farm it should be fine. Tom Irwin From: bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:10:31 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing? Howdy Todd, just a tiny correction, lest anybody get confused: Epsom salt is hydrated magnesium _sulfate_ not sulfide. Regardless, your advice is sound as always. Appal Energy wrote: > > His main argument seemed to be against losing the energy in the methanol > >that was washed out > > Why "wash" it out? Why not evaporate it and recover it, even as small a > value as it is, rather than flush it with the wash water? > > I'll leave the energy and bio-accumlation numbers to the slide rule > folks, but in an efficient setup, the energy used to recover the > methanol from the biodiesel fraction can be used to raise the > temperature of the feedstock for the next batch to the reaction level. > > Presume you have a 160* evaporation temperature and the incoming > feedstock is 70*. In a perfect world half of that difference can be > transferred to the incoming oil, raising it to 115*. > > Go one step further when drying washed fuel, which may have a pre-dried > temp of 70*F. The diff between 115* and 70* would raise the fuel back up > to approximately 90*. > > The wash water is not waste, when all is said and done. It's irrigation. > Recover the soaps by using aluminum or magnesium sulfide (epsom salt), > which converts the water soluble soaps to non-soluble greases. These > have an energy content that can be recovered in a solid fuels boiler. > Or, you can grease the axles of your Sunday-go-to-meetin' buggy. > > The water can then be applied as gray water irrigation. The sulfur > content would have to be monitored. But there are crops that tend to > rather like sulfur to a small degree. > > At the same time the recovered catalyst (converted to fertilizer) can be > diluted and dispersed with the gray water. > > That leaves only the glycerol, either to sell or disperse with the > treated wash water, as the recovered FFAs are returned to the acid cycle > or used as boiler fuel. > > Todd Swearingen > > > > skapegoat wrote: > >> I did notice that a lot of the chemistry in the book was wrong. >> >> His main argument seemed to be against losing the energy in the >> methanol that was washed out. He does recommend not using BD with >> certain types of tubes, as the methanol will destroy it. >> >> I am certainly planning on washing my BD, I just wonder if he's had >> any problems in the ten or more years he's been making his without >> washing it. >> >> I know about the chemical equilibrium, and not to try to remove >> methanol until the layers are seperated. I'm just wondering if >> Tickell is so worried about wasting the methanol by washing it out if >> there is a better way of retrieving it without worrying about leaving >> all that other garbage in your BD. >> >> */Keith Addison /* wrote: >> >> Greetings the skapegoat >> >> >The JTF website strongly recommends washing and the Josh Tickell >> >book seems to suggest it isn't necessary and possibly even >> >detrimental. >> >> Bad book! See: >> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/31729/ >> >> You might also note that the JtF website says why it strongly >> recommends washing, with a couple of references provided (there could >> have been plenty more): >> >> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html#why >> Washing: Why bother? >> >> IIRC Joshua Tickell provides one obscure and outdated reference. Rudi >> Weidegger of FuelMeister fame (or infamy), who Joshua's since teamed >> up with, also recommends no washing and says it's bad for your motor, >> with no references, but then he doesn't provide a washtank in his >> exorbitant set-up. >> >> Ho-hum. >> >> Anyway, to believe that you'd have to believe that all the national >> standards are based on nothing. Some people do seem to believe that. >> That's their business, as long as they keep their crappy fuel to >> themselves. >> >> >I'm interested in some insight on this difference of opinion. I'm >> >sure most experienced biodieselers
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
Why read when I have Keith to send me relevant articles? I then send them on to my circle. I am always amazed when I get out of my little isulated circle of left-wing commie-pinko tree-hugger crackpot homebrew lunatics and talk to the real world. I had a date once with a college-educated, grad school, reasonably intelligent woman who voted for Bush but couldn't come up with a single reason why. Willful ignorance is rampant in the US. Keith Addison wrote: Hi all, Well said, Keith. Why thankyou Tom. You might mention that most people in the U.S. don´t read on a regular basis. They get most of thier info from television or daily newspapers (mostly the sports section for men, fashion for women). FauxTV, yes I might, but I didn't this time, no need for the complete catastrophe. Now there´s a great source for unbiased truth. ;-> It's information though, and the important truth about it is that as a medium for transferring that information it's formidable, junk content or not. Indeed a truth not to be ignored. Keith you definitely have a way with words when you have the time to string some together. Why thankyou again! But tell us the truth, you really like the short quick bark deep down? It´s a good stress reliever, no? No. Kid reporters tend to like that, some of them. When they get a bit older and better at it they realise there's much more reward (and skill) in writing a critique something worthwhile than in panning something bad, whether it's a movie review or life and all the fish, whatever. This is what Robert just told Earl: "We have discussed this issue to death previously. A search of the archives is in order." Robert is not an impatient man. It's not that we can't discuss things that have been discussed before, of course we can, and indeed should, and in fact do, but I suspect what Robert is perhaps a mite exasperated with is that that doesn't mean we have to go over and over the same old ground in a fruitless circle. We should build on what's been established in previous discussions and move ahead, but you can't do that if you haven't bothered to look at the previous discussions and jump in anyway. It's a distraction, a traffic hold-up. If you drive the wrong way down a one-way street you get yelled at. No excuse, there are plenty of street signs. This list has got real depth, and breadth, it's got scope, but not if it's ignored. I stopped a different discussion here a few days back for the same reason - a fruitless distraction, not going anywhere. So that's what you might get barked at for. I'm not sure why you might think I like being a traffic warden, I don't like it at all, I prefer being a list member and getting on with business. Big Smile, :-) You did ask. Keith Tom Irwin From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 06:56:38 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing? Greetings skapegoat > >I could be wrong, but I wonder when Joshua last made biodiesel. Have > >a look at this: > >http://www.mail->archive.com/tainablelists.org")>biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg35652.html > >Re: [biofuel] Best Processer > >Okay then, here's a question. Why don't you write a book? I mean >you're a journalist, and journalists write things. I write things every day, but I do a lot of other things every day too, 15-hour days seven days a week at Journey to Forever. Writing a book is a lot of work! I'm just too busy. >And right or wrong, most people give more credibility to books than >the internet. Indeed, the authority of print. It's always been a fraud, print has no more intrinsic authority than gossip does, or indeed the Internet, and no less either. Much the same issues apply, for all the obvious differences. It's just that most people are living in the past. How many people really know how to handle information effectively amid the sheer glut of the stuff in this "Age of Information" we're supposed to be living in? Information is just that, mere content, good, bad or indifferent. In other words, it's the Age of Spin too. IIRC there are 20,000 more PR professionals than journalists working in the US today, with an annual budget of $35 billion, which is just the tip of the iceberg. A lot of people just naturally assume they're proof against it, but PR pros or journos could tell them that's what they're meant to think. Funny, isn't it, that they just don't teach this stuff in schools. A lot of people (sometimes the same people) haven't discovered how to copy and paste yet. So much for print. Either way, you reach some people and you don't reach others, same as any medium you use. What sort of book would you have to write (and publish) to equ
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
Hi all, Well said, Keith. Why thankyou Tom. You might mention that most people in the U.S. don´t read on a regular basis. They get most of thier info from television or daily newspapers (mostly the sports section for men, fashion for women). FauxTV, yes I might, but I didn't this time, no need for the complete catastrophe. Now there´s a great source for unbiased truth. ;-> It's information though, and the important truth about it is that as a medium for transferring that information it's formidable, junk content or not. Indeed a truth not to be ignored. Keith you definitely have a way with words when you have the time to string some together. Why thankyou again! But tell us the truth, you really like the short quick bark deep down? It´s a good stress reliever, no? No. Kid reporters tend to like that, some of them. When they get a bit older and better at it they realise there's much more reward (and skill) in writing a critique something worthwhile than in panning something bad, whether it's a movie review or life and all the fish, whatever. This is what Robert just told Earl: "We have discussed this issue to death previously. A search of the archives is in order." Robert is not an impatient man. It's not that we can't discuss things that have been discussed before, of course we can, and indeed should, and in fact do, but I suspect what Robert is perhaps a mite exasperated with is that that doesn't mean we have to go over and over the same old ground in a fruitless circle. We should build on what's been established in previous discussions and move ahead, but you can't do that if you haven't bothered to look at the previous discussions and jump in anyway. It's a distraction, a traffic hold-up. If you drive the wrong way down a one-way street you get yelled at. No excuse, there are plenty of street signs. This list has got real depth, and breadth, it's got scope, but not if it's ignored. I stopped a different discussion here a few days back for the same reason - a fruitless distraction, not going anywhere. So that's what you might get barked at for. I'm not sure why you might think I like being a traffic warden, I don't like it at all, I prefer being a list member and getting on with business. Big Smile, :-) You did ask. Keith Tom Irwin From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 06:56:38 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing? Greetings skapegoat > >I could be wrong, but I wonder when Joshua last made biodiesel. Have > >a look at this: > >http://www.mail->archive.com/tainablelists.org")>biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg35652.html > >Re: [biofuel] Best Processer > >Okay then, here's a question. Why don't you write a book? I mean >you're a journalist, and journalists write things. I write things every day, but I do a lot of other things every day too, 15-hour days seven days a week at Journey to Forever. Writing a book is a lot of work! I'm just too busy. >And right or wrong, most people give more credibility to books than >the internet. Indeed, the authority of print. It's always been a fraud, print has no more intrinsic authority than gossip does, or indeed the Internet, and no less either. Much the same issues apply, for all the obvious differences. It's just that most people are living in the past. How many people really know how to handle information effectively amid the sheer glut of the stuff in this "Age of Information" we're supposed to be living in? Information is just that, mere content, good, bad or indifferent. In other words, it's the Age of Spin too. IIRC there are 20,000 more PR professionals than journalists working in the US today, with an annual budget of $35 billion, which is just the tip of the iceberg. A lot of people just naturally assume they're proof against it, but PR pros or journos could tell them that's what they're meant to think. Funny, isn't it, that they just don't teach this stuff in schools. A lot of people (sometimes the same people) haven't discovered how to copy and paste yet. So much for print. Either way, you reach some people and you don't reach others, same as any medium you use. What sort of book would you have to write (and publish) to equal the kind of traffic that the Journey to Forever website gets every month? I'm not sure offhand what proportion of total visits the Biofuels section gets, it's probably about half the total, let's say, which would give it 108,000 visits and 300,000 page views last month. Some book. But which market segment, if you want to call it that, is better, book readers or Internet readers? Better for what? Our website and this mailing list are very effective in helpin
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
Hey- Good job!! Politics, definition: poli=many, tics=blood-sucking parasites. D.- Original Message - From: Tom Irwin To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 7:01 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing? Hi all, Well said, Keith. You might mention that most people in the U.S. don´t read on a regular basis. They get most of thier info from television or daily newspapers (mostly the sports section for men, fashion for women). Now there´s a great source for unbiased truth. ;-> Keith you definitely have a way with words when you have the time to string some together. But tell us the truth, you really like the short quick bark deep down? It´s a good stress reliever, no? Big Smile, Tom Irwin From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 06:56:38 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing?Greetings skapegoat> >I could be wrong, but I wonder when Joshua last made biodiesel. Have> >a look at this:> >http://www.mail->archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg35652.html> >Re: [biofuel] Best Processer>>Okay then, here's a question. Why don't you write a book? I mean >you're a journalist, and journalists write things.I write things every day, but I do a lot of other things every day too, 15-hour days seven days a week at Journey to Forever. Writing a book is a lot of work! I'm just too busy.>And right or wrong, most people give more credibility to books than >the internet.Indeed, the authority of print. It's always been a fraud, print has no more intrinsic authority than gossip does, or indeed the Internet, and no less either. Much the same issues apply, for all the obvious differences. It's just that most people are living in the past. How many people really know how to handle information effectively amid the sheer glut of the stuff in this "Age of Information" we're supposed to be living in? Information is just that, mere content, good, bad or indifferent. In other words, it's the Age of Spin too. IIRC there are 20,000 more PR professionals than journalists working in the US today, with an annual budget of $35 billion, which is just the tip of the iceberg. A lot of people just naturally assume they're proof against it, but PR pros or journos could tell them that's what they're meant to think. Funny, isn't it, that they just don't teach this stuff in schools. A lot of people (sometimes the same people) haven't discovered how to copy and paste yet.So much for print. Either way, you reach some people and you don't reach others, same as any medium you use. What sort of book would you have to write (and publish) to equal the kind of traffic that the Journey to Forever website gets every month? I'm not sure offhand what proportion of total visits the Biofuels section gets, it's probably about half the total, let's say, which would give it 108,000 visits and 300,000 page views last month. Some book.But which market segment, if you want to call it that, is better, book readers or Internet readers? Better for what? Our website and this mailing list are very effective in helping thousands of people, more than thousands, worldwide, to make their own biofuels. They're quietly making and using millions of gallons every year, and it's growing fast. It's a revolution in the doing, not just in the making as proposed in another thread, and I think it's too late to stop it. When people get empowered that way it leads them to other things. So who is more likely to be at the forefront of a revolution for a sustainable future, people like these or people who're living in the past and fumble with computers and the Internet? Of course that's not a real question, there's no either/or, rather both/and, inclusive not exclusive. But it's a reason I don't get to write books these days.Though I was disparaging above about spin and everyman, I don't believe that's as important as the rapidly growing number of people all over the world who're using the Internet in such creative ways. That's also too late to stop. Have a look at this for instance:THE ENEMY IS EVERYWHEREhttp://www.prandmarketing.com/legalpr/news_virtualomnipresent.htmlThe Legal PR Bulletin has posted an article by Richard S. Levick ofLevick Strategic
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
Hi all, Well said, Keith. You might mention that most people in the U.S. don´t read on a regular basis. They get most of thier info from television or daily newspapers (mostly the sports section for men, fashion for women). Now there´s a great source for unbiased truth. ;-> Keith you definitely have a way with words when you have the time to string some together. But tell us the truth, you really like the short quick bark deep down? It´s a good stress reliever, no? Big Smile, Tom Irwin From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 06:56:38 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing?Greetings skapegoat> >I could be wrong, but I wonder when Joshua last made biodiesel. Have> >a look at this:> >http://www.mail->archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg35652.html> >Re: [biofuel] Best Processer>>Okay then, here's a question. Why don't you write a book? I mean >you're a journalist, and journalists write things.I write things every day, but I do a lot of other things every day too, 15-hour days seven days a week at Journey to Forever. Writing a book is a lot of work! I'm just too busy.>And right or wrong, most people give more credibility to books than >the internet.Indeed, the authority of print. It's always been a fraud, print has no more intrinsic authority than gossip does, or indeed the Internet, and no less either. Much the same issues apply, for all the obvious differences. It's just that most people are living in the past. How many people really know how to handle information effectively amid the sheer glut of the stuff in this "Age of Information" we're supposed to be living in? Information is just that, mere content, good, bad or indifferent. In other words, it's the Age of Spin too. IIRC there are 20,000 more PR professionals than journalists working in the US today, with an annual budget of $35 billion, which is just the tip of the iceberg. A lot of people just naturally assume they're proof against it, but PR pros or journos could tell them that's what they're meant to think. Funny, isn't it, that they just don't teach this stuff in schools. A lot of people (sometimes the same people) haven't discovered how to copy and paste yet.So much for print. Either way, you reach some people and you don't reach others, same as any medium you use. What sort of book would you have to write (and publish) to equal the kind of traffic that the Journey to Forever website gets every month? I'm not sure offhand what proportion of total visits the Biofuels section gets, it's probably about half the total, let's say, which would give it 108,000 visits and 300,000 page views last month. Some book.But which market segment, if you want to call it that, is better, book readers or Internet readers? Better for what? Our website and this mailing list are very effective in helping thousands of people, more than thousands, worldwide, to make their own biofuels. They're quietly making and using millions of gallons every year, and it's growing fast. It's a revolution in the doing, not just in the making as proposed in another thread, and I think it's too late to stop it. When people get empowered that way it leads them to other things. So who is more likely to be at the forefront of a revolution for a sustainable future, people like these or people who're living in the past and fumble with computers and the Internet? Of course that's not a real question, there's no either/or, rather both/and, inclusive not exclusive. But it's a reason I don't get to write books these days.Though I was disparaging above about spin and everyman, I don't believe that's as important as the rapidly growing number of people all over the world who're using the Internet in such creative ways. That's also too late to stop. Have a look at this for instance:THE ENEMY IS EVERYWHEREhttp://www.prandmarketing.com/legalpr/news_virtualomnipresent.htmlThe Legal PR Bulletin has posted an article by Richard S. Levick ofLevick Strategic Communications on how companies can defendthemselves against online critics, titled "A Virtual OmnipresentEnemy." Levick warns: "It is only a matter of time before blogsbecome commonplace weapons allowing well-organized adversaries toboth disseminate and preserve shrewder anti-corporate messages. Onerecent blog, for example, attacks a plan by FedEx to build a hub atthe Piedmont Triad Airport in Guilford County, North Carolina.Guilford County is a sprawling community that cannot easily convenetown meetings to debate development projects. The blog is a naturalsubstitute. ... The FedEx experience is illustrative for a largerreason as well. NGOs have often been marginalized as radicals. Butbecause blogs are pure stealth warfare, people who might never
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
Hi All, I definitely agree with this. Glycerine has lots of carbons for the anaerobes to eat. In wastewater terms its a high BOD (biochemical oxygen demand) source. In layman´s terms you can grow a few million bacteria with a drop or two. It would mean lots of methane and carbon dioxide production. BTW I read here that some folks remove the carbon dioxide before use. They use various absorbents to do this. Again this is another excellent idea. A well balance digester produces about a 50/50 mixture of methane and CO2. Removing the CO2 even inefficiently improves the overall fuel quality dramatically. Tom Irwin From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 06:56:38 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing?___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
Hi all, For those of you that needs it, the glycerol can also be converted via anaerobic digestor to methane for stoves and boilers. Not such a good idea for city folk but on the farm it should be fine. Tom Irwin A visitor to our website told us this: "I work at a wastewater treatment plant and I was doing a search on glycerin and biofuels and came across your website. It has good information, thanks. "Here's another use of glycerin: Our treatment is accepting the glycerin from a biofuel producer, we feed it to our digesters, slowly very slowly. The addition of glycerin has dramatically increased our gas production, so that we run all three engines that produce electricity for our plant and occasionally need to flare off the excess methane (we have four4 flares). "This might be of interest to your readers who use digestion for electricity." The biogas is used as fuel in diesel engines which power electricity generators. But this glycerin wasn't raw by-product, it was separated glycerin from a commercial producer: "The glycerine is agricultural grade and looks similar to thin maple syrup. "As for pH, since the chemistry in the anaerobic digester is healthy, a high pH wasn't much of a concern. Our main concern was foaming with the introduction of glycerin, and we did see an increase hence the slow feed rate to the digester." See "Separating glycerine/FFAs": http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html Can the unseparated by-product, the whole glycerin-catalyst-soap cocktail, also be used to increase biogas production? Pannirselvam in Brazil responded: "Very good news to make the gas and liquid biofuel in an integrated way. "There are many published papers about the enhanced production of biogas from oily wastes and glycerine is a good intermediate metabolite, hence the results agree with theory. "But here too we need a mixed microbial population to work well and they will need a lot of adoption time for glycerine, otherwise one may totally fail to produce gas. "There are two routes to get energy from waste of the BioDiesel making process, bioconversion and thermo-conversion. I believe the combined Biogas generation is better than combustion. The correct mixture of proteins and glycerine and salt needs to be carefully solved by practical work." One factor in that would be that bioconversion via biogas provides useful by-products and fits very well with a hot composting system, they're complementary. So you get two sources of heat, gas for burning and 60 deg C heat in the compost pile for heat exchangers, plus a lot of excellent fertilizer to grow your biofuels crops. Integrated, low input, high output. We'll soon be building biogas digesters here in Tamba (starting with this one: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/MethaneDigesters/MD6.html Methane Digesters for Fuel Gas and Fertilizer, With Complete Instructions For Two Working Models, by L. John Fry, Chapter 10: Building an Inner Tube Digester). Investigating glycerin by-product digestion will be a priority. For towns, home-brewers have pointed out that a wastewater treatment system should be able to handle the glycerin by-product without problems. It mixes with water, it's biodegradable, and if you reclaim the excess methanol first, it's non-toxic. As for the lye and the soap, lye is a drain-cleaner after all, and wastewater plants are no strangers to soap. Even the methanol might be an advantage (the bacteria like it). But don't pour by-product down the drain or the toilet without checking with your local authority first. Best wishes Keith From: bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:10:31 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing? Howdy Todd, just a tiny correction, lest anybody get confused: Epsom salt is hydrated magnesium _sulfate_ not sulfide. Regardless, your advice is sound as always. Appal Energy wrote: > > His main argument seemed to be against losing the energy in the methanol > >that was washed out > > Why "wash" it out? Why not evaporate it and recover it, even as small a > value as it is, rather than flush it with the wash water? > > I'll leave the energy and bio-accumlation numbers to the slide rule > folks, but in an efficient setup, the energy used to recover the > methanol from the biodiesel fraction can be used to raise the > temperature of the feedstock for the next batch to the reaction level. > > Presume you have a 160* evaporation temperature and the incoming > feedstock is 70*. In a perfect world half of that difference can be > transferred to the incoming oil, raising it to 115*. > > Go one step further when drying washed fuel, which may have a pre-dried > temp of 70*F. The diff between 115* and 70* would raise the fuel back up > to approximat
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
Greetings skapegoat >I could be wrong, but I wonder when Joshua last made biodiesel. Have >a look at this: >http://www.mail->archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg35652.html >Re: [biofuel] Best Processer Okay then, here's a question. Why don't you write a book? I mean you're a journalist, and journalists write things. I write things every day, but I do a lot of other things every day too, 15-hour days seven days a week at Journey to Forever. Writing a book is a lot of work! I'm just too busy. And right or wrong, most people give more credibility to books than the internet. Indeed, the authority of print. It's always been a fraud, print has no more intrinsic authority than gossip does, or indeed the Internet, and no less either. Much the same issues apply, for all the obvious differences. It's just that most people are living in the past. How many people really know how to handle information effectively amid the sheer glut of the stuff in this "Age of Information" we're supposed to be living in? Information is just that, mere content, good, bad or indifferent. In other words, it's the Age of Spin too. IIRC there are 20,000 more PR professionals than journalists working in the US today, with an annual budget of $35 billion, which is just the tip of the iceberg. A lot of people just naturally assume they're proof against it, but PR pros or journos could tell them that's what they're meant to think. Funny, isn't it, that they just don't teach this stuff in schools. A lot of people (sometimes the same people) haven't discovered how to copy and paste yet. So much for print. Either way, you reach some people and you don't reach others, same as any medium you use. What sort of book would you have to write (and publish) to equal the kind of traffic that the Journey to Forever website gets every month? I'm not sure offhand what proportion of total visits the Biofuels section gets, it's probably about half the total, let's say, which would give it 108,000 visits and 300,000 page views last month. Some book. But which market segment, if you want to call it that, is better, book readers or Internet readers? Better for what? Our website and this mailing list are very effective in helping thousands of people, more than thousands, worldwide, to make their own biofuels. They're quietly making and using millions of gallons every year, and it's growing fast. It's a revolution in the doing, not just in the making as proposed in another thread, and I think it's too late to stop it. When people get empowered that way it leads them to other things. So who is more likely to be at the forefront of a revolution for a sustainable future, people like these or people who're living in the past and fumble with computers and the Internet? Of course that's not a real question, there's no either/or, rather both/and, inclusive not exclusive. But it's a reason I don't get to write books these days. Though I was disparaging above about spin and everyman, I don't believe that's as important as the rapidly growing number of people all over the world who're using the Internet in such creative ways. That's also too late to stop. Have a look at this for instance: THE ENEMY IS EVERYWHERE http://www.prandmarketing.com/legalpr/news_virtualomnipresent.html The Legal PR Bulletin has posted an article by Richard S. Levick of Levick Strategic Communications on how companies can defend themselves against online critics, titled "A Virtual Omnipresent Enemy." Levick warns: "It is only a matter of time before blogs become commonplace weapons allowing well-organized adversaries to both disseminate and preserve shrewder anti-corporate messages. One recent blog, for example, attacks a plan by FedEx to build a hub at the Piedmont Triad Airport in Guilford County, North Carolina. Guilford County is a sprawling community that cannot easily convene town meetings to debate development projects. The blog is a natural substitute. ... The FedEx experience is illustrative for a larger reason as well. NGOs have often been marginalized as radicals. But because blogs are pure stealth warfare, people who might never choose to ally themselves with activists are more susceptible to their messages." And "NGOs are but one possible adversary. Labor unions and plaintiffs' counsel are others. ... Tactically, blogs pose far greater threats than any other kind of online attack." Dream on, dinosaurs. Reminiscent of Bivings - it works, but it backfires on them. Infiltrating mailing lists is by now a well-used spin tactic, used by Monsanto, for instance: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4412987,00.html The fake persuaders Corporations are inventing people to rubbish their opponents on the internet "There are some campaigns where it would be undesirable or even disastrous to let the audience know that your organisation is directly involved... it simply is not an i
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
Hi all, For those of you that needs it, the glycerol can also be converted via anaerobic digestor to methane for stoves and boilers. Not such a good idea for city folk but on the farm it should be fine. Tom Irwin From: bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:10:31 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing?Howdy Todd, just a tiny correction, lest anybody get confused: Epsom salt is hydrated magnesium _sulfate_ not sulfide. Regardless, your advice is sound as always.Appal Energy wrote:> > His main argument seemed to be against losing the energy in the methanol> >that was washed out> > Why "wash" it out? Why not evaporate it and recover it, even as small a > value as it is, rather than flush it with the wash water?> > I'll leave the energy and bio-accumlation numbers to the slide rule > folks, but in an efficient setup, the energy used to recover the > methanol from the biodiesel fraction can be used to raise the > temperature of the feedstock for the next batch to the reaction level.> > Presume you have a 160* evaporation temperature and the incoming > feedstock is 70*. In a perfect world half of that difference can be > transferred to the incoming oil, raising it to 115*.> > Go one step further when drying washed fuel, which may have a pre-dried > temp of 70*F. The diff between 115* and 70* would raise the fuel back up > to approximately 90*.> > The wash water is not waste, when all is said and done. It's irrigation. > Recover the soaps by using aluminum or magnesium sulfide (epsom salt), > which converts the water soluble soaps to non-soluble greases. These > have an energy content that can be recovered in a solid fuels boiler. > Or, you can grease the axles of your Sunday-go-to-meetin' buggy.> > The water can then be applied as gray water irrigation. The sulfur > content would have to be monitored. But there are crops that tend to > rather like sulfur to a small degree.> > At the same time the recovered catalyst (converted to fertilizer) can be > diluted and dispersed with the gray water.> > That leaves only the glycerol, either to sell or disperse with the > treated wash water, as the recovered FFAs are returned to the acid cycle > or used as boiler fuel.> > Todd Swearingen> > > > skapegoat wrote:> >> I did notice that a lot of the chemistry in the book was wrong.>> >> His main argument seemed to be against losing the energy in the >> methanol that was washed out. He does recommend not using BD with >> certain types of tubes, as the methanol will destroy it.>> >> I am certainly planning on washing my BD, I just wonder if he's had >> any problems in the ten or more years he's been making his without >> washing it.>> >> I know about the chemical equilibrium, and not to try to remove >> methanol until the layers are seperated. I'm just wondering if >> Tickell is so worried about wasting the methanol by washing it out if >> there is a better way of retrieving it without worrying about leaving >> all that other garbage in your BD.>>>> */Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:>>>> Greetings the skapegoat>>>> >The JTF website strongly recommends washing and the Josh Tickell>> >book seems to suggest it isn't necessary and possibly even>> >detrimental.>>>> Bad book! See:>> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/31729/>>>> You might also note that the JtF website says why it strongly>> recommends washing, with a couple of references provided (there could>> have been plenty more):>>>> http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html#why>> Washing: Why bother?>>>> IIRC Joshua Tickell provides one obscure and outdated reference. Rudi>> Weidegger of FuelMeister fame (or infamy), who Joshua's since teamed>> up with, also recommends no washing and says it's bad for your motor,>> with no references, but then he doesn't provide a washtank in his>> exorbitant set-up.>>>> Ho-hum.>>>> Anyway, to believe that you'd have to believe that all the national>> standards are based on nothing. Some people do seem to believe that.>> That's their business, as long as they keep their crappy fuel to>> themselves.>>>> >I'm interested in some insight on this difference of opinion. I'm>> >sure most experienced biodieselers here wash their biodiesel.>> >>> >Would it be worthwhile to distill the methanol from the biodiesel>> >instead of just washing it away?>>>> The most convenient stage to reclaim the exce
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
Thank you Bob. I'm mentally frayed this week. Lucky the wine cask is empty or I'd be plopped down right next to it. Todd Swearingen bob allen wrote: Howdy Todd, just a tiny correction, lest anybody get confused: Epsom salt is hydrated magnesium _sulfate_ not sulfide. Regardless, your advice is sound as always. Appal Energy wrote: > His main argument seemed to be against losing the energy in the methanol >that was washed out Why "wash" it out? Why not evaporate it and recover it, even as small a value as it is, rather than flush it with the wash water? I'll leave the energy and bio-accumlation numbers to the slide rule folks, but in an efficient setup, the energy used to recover the methanol from the biodiesel fraction can be used to raise the temperature of the feedstock for the next batch to the reaction level. Presume you have a 160* evaporation temperature and the incoming feedstock is 70*. In a perfect world half of that difference can be transferred to the incoming oil, raising it to 115*. Go one step further when drying washed fuel, which may have a pre-dried temp of 70*F. The diff between 115* and 70* would raise the fuel back up to approximately 90*. The wash water is not waste, when all is said and done. It's irrigation. Recover the soaps by using aluminum or magnesium sulfide (epsom salt), which converts the water soluble soaps to non-soluble greases. These have an energy content that can be recovered in a solid fuels boiler. Or, you can grease the axles of your Sunday-go-to-meetin' buggy. The water can then be applied as gray water irrigation. The sulfur content would have to be monitored. But there are crops that tend to rather like sulfur to a small degree. At the same time the recovered catalyst (converted to fertilizer) can be diluted and dispersed with the gray water. That leaves only the glycerol, either to sell or disperse with the treated wash water, as the recovered FFAs are returned to the acid cycle or used as boiler fuel. Todd Swearingen skapegoat wrote: I did notice that a lot of the chemistry in the book was wrong. His main argument seemed to be against losing the energy in the methanol that was washed out. He does recommend not using BD with certain types of tubes, as the methanol will destroy it. I am certainly planning on washing my BD, I just wonder if he's had any problems in the ten or more years he's been making his without washing it. I know about the chemical equilibrium, and not to try to remove methanol until the layers are seperated. I'm just wondering if Tickell is so worried about wasting the methanol by washing it out if there is a better way of retrieving it without worrying about leaving all that other garbage in your BD. */Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Greetings the skapegoat >The JTF website strongly recommends washing and the Josh Tickell >book seems to suggest it isn't necessary and possibly even >detrimental. Bad book! See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/31729/ You might also note that the JtF website says why it strongly recommends washing, with a couple of references provided (there could have been plenty more): http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html#why Washing: Why bother? IIRC Joshua Tickell provides one obscure and outdated reference. Rudi Weidegger of FuelMeister fame (or infamy), who Joshua's since teamed up with, also recommends no washing and says it's bad for your motor, with no references, but then he doesn't provide a washtank in his exorbitant set-up. Ho-hum. Anyway, to believe that you'd have to believe that all the national standards are based on nothing. Some people do seem to believe that. That's their business, as long as they keep their crappy fuel to themselves. >I'm interested in some insight on this difference of opinion. I'm >sure most experienced biodieselers here wash their biodiesel. > >Would it be worthwhile to distill the methanol from the biodiesel >instead of just washing it away? The most convenient stage to reclaim the excess methanol would be immediately after the processing, when the mix is still hot. Unfortunately that means you reverse the very reaction you've just completed (hopefully completed). You have to settle and separate the glycerine by-product first. Most of the excess methanol is in the by-product; the small proportion in the biodiesel can be recovered, if you can find an economical way of doing it. >I know this still leaves excess hydroxides And soaps. >that still need to be washed out, but it might reduce the number of >washes necessary Doubtful. >and you might be able to save some of your methanol. Indeed. Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
Howdy Todd, just a tiny correction, lest anybody get confused: Epsom salt is hydrated magnesium _sulfate_ not sulfide. Regardless, your advice is sound as always. Appal Energy wrote: > His main argument seemed to be against losing the energy in the methanol >that was washed out Why "wash" it out? Why not evaporate it and recover it, even as small a value as it is, rather than flush it with the wash water? I'll leave the energy and bio-accumlation numbers to the slide rule folks, but in an efficient setup, the energy used to recover the methanol from the biodiesel fraction can be used to raise the temperature of the feedstock for the next batch to the reaction level. Presume you have a 160* evaporation temperature and the incoming feedstock is 70*. In a perfect world half of that difference can be transferred to the incoming oil, raising it to 115*. Go one step further when drying washed fuel, which may have a pre-dried temp of 70*F. The diff between 115* and 70* would raise the fuel back up to approximately 90*. The wash water is not waste, when all is said and done. It's irrigation. Recover the soaps by using aluminum or magnesium sulfide (epsom salt), which converts the water soluble soaps to non-soluble greases. These have an energy content that can be recovered in a solid fuels boiler. Or, you can grease the axles of your Sunday-go-to-meetin' buggy. The water can then be applied as gray water irrigation. The sulfur content would have to be monitored. But there are crops that tend to rather like sulfur to a small degree. At the same time the recovered catalyst (converted to fertilizer) can be diluted and dispersed with the gray water. That leaves only the glycerol, either to sell or disperse with the treated wash water, as the recovered FFAs are returned to the acid cycle or used as boiler fuel. Todd Swearingen skapegoat wrote: I did notice that a lot of the chemistry in the book was wrong. His main argument seemed to be against losing the energy in the methanol that was washed out. He does recommend not using BD with certain types of tubes, as the methanol will destroy it. I am certainly planning on washing my BD, I just wonder if he's had any problems in the ten or more years he's been making his without washing it. I know about the chemical equilibrium, and not to try to remove methanol until the layers are seperated. I'm just wondering if Tickell is so worried about wasting the methanol by washing it out if there is a better way of retrieving it without worrying about leaving all that other garbage in your BD. */Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Greetings the skapegoat >The JTF website strongly recommends washing and the Josh Tickell >book seems to suggest it isn't necessary and possibly even >detrimental. Bad book! See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/31729/ You might also note that the JtF website says why it strongly recommends washing, with a couple of references provided (there could have been plenty more): http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html#why Washing: Why bother? IIRC Joshua Tickell provides one obscure and outdated reference. Rudi Weidegger of FuelMeister fame (or infamy), who Joshua's since teamed up with, also recommends no washing and says it's bad for your motor, with no references, but then he doesn't provide a washtank in his exorbitant set-up. Ho-hum. Anyway, to believe that you'd have to believe that all the national standards are based on nothing. Some people do seem to believe that. That's their business, as long as they keep their crappy fuel to themselves. >I'm interested in some insight on this difference of opinion. I'm >sure most experienced biodieselers here wash their biodiesel. > >Would it be worthwhile to distill the methanol from the biodiesel >instead of just washing it away? The most convenient stage to reclaim the excess methanol would be immediately after the processing, when the mix is still hot. Unfortunately that means you reverse the very reaction you've just completed (hopefully completed). You have to settle and separate the glycerine by-product first. Most of the excess methanol is in the by-product; the small proportion in the biodiesel can be recovered, if you can find an economical way of doing it. >I know this still leaves excess hydroxides And soaps. >that still need to be washed out, but it might reduce the number of >washes necessary Doubtful. >and you might be able to save some of your methanol. Indeed. Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytofore
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
>I could be wrong, but I wonder when Joshua last made biodiesel. Have >a look at this:>http://www.mail->archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg35652.html>Re: [biofuel] Best Processer Okay then, here's a question. Why don't you write a book? I mean you're a journalist, and journalists write things. And right or wrong, most people give more credibility to books than the internet. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
>Why "wash" it out? Why not evaporate it and recover it, even as small >a value as it is, rather than flush it with the wash water? Actually, that's what I was asking about when I mentioned distilling the BD. Do you have the apparatus you are talking about? It sounds like a rather complicated series of heat exchangers. I certainly don't have the space for that at the moment, but I am making a condenser to recover BD from the glycerine level. Is there info anywhere on how much of this I should expect to retrieve? Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
Greetings the skapegoat I did notice that a lot of the chemistry in the book was wrong. His main argument seemed to be against losing the energy in the methanol that was washed out. He does recommend not using BD with certain types of tubes, as the methanol will destroy it. Because of the free methanol content unwashed biodiesel will attack a lot of things that washed biodiesel won't attack, or not nearly as much. Plastics aside, this is what the Fuel Injection Equipment (FIE) Manufacturers say, among other things: "Free methanol in biodiesel "Effect: Corrodes aluminium & zinc, Low flash point "Failure Mode: Corrosion of fuel injection equipment http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_FIEM.html FIEM report I am certainly planning on washing my BD, I just wonder if he's had any problems in the ten or more years he's been making his without washing it. I could be wrong, but I wonder when Joshua last made biodiesel. Have a look at this: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg35652.html Re: [biofuel] Best Processer I know about the chemical equilibrium, and not to try to remove methanol until the layers are seperated. I wonder if Joshua knows that. I'm just wondering if Tickell is so worried about wasting the methanol by washing it out if there is a better way of retrieving it without worrying about leaving all that other garbage in your BD. I think he's just sloppy. Sorry if I sound a bit sceptical of Joshua, it's because I am. Sorry about that too, really. After separating the layers, the excess methanol should be reclaimed from both the biodiesel before washing and from the by-product, if you can find an efficient and economical way of doing it. Best Keith Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Greetings the skapegoat >The JTF website strongly recommends washing and the Josh Tickell >book seems to suggest it isn't necessary and possibly even >detrimental. Bad book! See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/31729/ You might also note that the JtF website says why it strongly recommends washing, with a couple of references provided (there could have been plenty more): http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html#why Washing: Why bother? IIRC Joshua Tickell provides one obscure and outdated reference. Rudi Weidegger of FuelMeister fame (or infamy), who Joshua's since teamed up with, also recommends no washing and says it's bad for your motor, with no references, but then he doesn't provide a washtank in his exorbitant set-up. Ho-hum. Anyway, to believe that you'd h! ave to believe that all the national standards are based on nothing. Some people do seem to believe that. That's their business, as long as they keep their crappy fuel to themselves. >I'm interested in some insight on this difference of opinion. I'm >sure most experienced biodieselers here wash their biodiesel. > >Would it be worthwhile to distill the methanol from the biodiesel >instead of just washing it away? The most convenient stage to reclaim the excess methanol would be immediately after the processing, when the mix is still hot. Unfortunately that means you reverse the very reaction you've just completed (hopefully completed). You have to settle and separate the glycerine by-product first. Most of the excess methanol is in the by-product; the small proportion in the biodiesel can be recovered, if you can find an economical way of doing it. >I know this still leaves excess hydroxides And soaps. >that still need to be washed out, but it might reduce the number of >washes necessary Doubtful. >and you might be able to save some of your methanol. Indeed. Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
I wonder what leaving the extra methanol does to the low temperature flow characteristics of BioDiesel?Could this be an asset during winter? Greg H. - Original Message - From: "Ken Provost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 18:59 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing? > on 8/11/05 4:56 PM, the skapegoat at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > His main argument seemed to be against losing the > > energy in the methanol that was washed out. > > > The "energy" does you no good if your particular > thermodynamic cycle can't take advantage of it. > What is the cetane rating of methanol? > > > > I'm just wondering if Tickell is so worried about > > wasting the methanol by washing it out if there is a > > better way of retrieving it. > > > Not much MeOH left in the biodiesel. Most goes into the > glycerol phase, particularly if you do a water addition > to the glycerol. Best to retrieve it from there. > > -K > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
> His main argument seemed to be against losing the energy in the methanol >that was washed out Why "wash" it out? Why not evaporate it and recover it, even as small a value as it is, rather than flush it with the wash water? I'll leave the energy and bio-accumlation numbers to the slide rule folks, but in an efficient setup, the energy used to recover the methanol from the biodiesel fraction can be used to raise the temperature of the feedstock for the next batch to the reaction level. Presume you have a 160* evaporation temperature and the incoming feedstock is 70*. In a perfect world half of that difference can be transferred to the incoming oil, raising it to 115*. Go one step further when drying washed fuel, which may have a pre-dried temp of 70*F. The diff between 115* and 70* would raise the fuel back up to approximately 90*. The wash water is not waste, when all is said and done. It's irrigation. Recover the soaps by using aluminum or magnesium sulfide (epsom salt), which converts the water soluble soaps to non-soluble greases. These have an energy content that can be recovered in a solid fuels boiler. Or, you can grease the axles of your Sunday-go-to-meetin' buggy. The water can then be applied as gray water irrigation. The sulfur content would have to be monitored. But there are crops that tend to rather like sulfur to a small degree. At the same time the recovered catalyst (converted to fertilizer) can be diluted and dispersed with the gray water. That leaves only the glycerol, either to sell or disperse with the treated wash water, as the recovered FFAs are returned to the acid cycle or used as boiler fuel. Todd Swearingen skapegoat wrote: I did notice that a lot of the chemistry in the book was wrong. His main argument seemed to be against losing the energy in the methanol that was washed out. He does recommend not using BD with certain types of tubes, as the methanol will destroy it. I am certainly planning on washing my BD, I just wonder if he's had any problems in the ten or more years he's been making his without washing it. I know about the chemical equilibrium, and not to try to remove methanol until the layers are seperated. I'm just wondering if Tickell is so worried about wasting the methanol by washing it out if there is a better way of retrieving it without worrying about leaving all that other garbage in your BD. */Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Greetings the skapegoat >The JTF website strongly recommends washing and the Josh Tickell >book seems to suggest it isn't necessary and possibly even >detrimental. Bad book! See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/31729/ You might also note that the JtF website says why it strongly recommends washing, with a couple of references provided (there could have been plenty more): http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html#why Washing: Why bother? IIRC Joshua Tickell provides one obscure and outdated reference. Rudi Weidegger of FuelMeister fame (or infamy), who Joshua's since teamed up with, also recommends no washing and says it's bad for your motor, with no references, but then he doesn't provide a washtank in his exorbitant set-up. Ho-hum. Anyway, to believe that you'd have to believe that all the national standards are based on nothing. Some people do seem to believe that. That's their business, as long as they keep their crappy fuel to themselves. >I'm interested in some insight on this difference of opinion. I'm >sure most experienced biodieselers here wash their biodiesel. > >Would it be worthwhile to distill the methanol from the biodiesel >instead of just washing it away? The most convenient stage to reclaim the excess methanol would be immediately after the processing, when the mix is still hot. Unfortunately that means you reverse the very reaction you've just completed (hopefully completed). You have to settle and separate the glycerine by-product first. Most of the excess methanol is in the by-product; the small proportion in the biodiesel can be recovered, if you can find an economical way of doing it. >I know this still leaves excess hydroxides And soaps. >that still need to be washed out, but it might reduce the number of >washes necessary Doubtful. >and you might be able to save some of your methanol. Indeed. Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Send instant messages to
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
on 8/11/05 4:56 PM, the skapegoat at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > His main argument seemed to be against losing the > energy in the methanol that was washed out. The "energy" does you no good if your particular thermodynamic cycle can't take advantage of it. What is the cetane rating of methanol? > I'm just wondering if Tickell is so worried about > wasting the methanol by washing it out if there is a > better way of retrieving it. Not much MeOH left in the biodiesel. Most goes into the glycerol phase, particularly if you do a water addition to the glycerol. Best to retrieve it from there. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
I did notice that a lot of the chemistry in the book was wrong. His main argument seemed to be against losing the energy in the methanol that was washed out. He does recommend not using BD with certain types of tubes, as the methanol will destroy it. I am certainly planning on washing my BD, I just wonder if he's had any problems in the ten or more years he's been making his without washing it. I know about the chemical equilibrium, and not to try to remove methanol until the layers are seperated. I'm just wondering if Tickell is so worried about wasting the methanol by washing it out if there is a better way of retrieving it without worrying about leaving all that other garbage in your BD. Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Greetings the skapegoat>The JTF website strongly recommends washing and the Josh Tickell >book seems to suggest it isn't necessary and possibly even >detrimental.Bad book! See:http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/31729/You might also note that the JtF website says why it strongly recommends washing, with a couple of references provided (there could have been plenty more):http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html#whyWashing: Why bother?IIRC Joshua Tickell provides one obscure and outdated reference. Rudi Weidegger of FuelMeister fame (or infamy), who Joshua's since teamed up with, also recommends no washing and says it's bad for your motor, with no references, but then he doesn't provide a washtank in his exorbitant set-up.Ho-hum.Anyway, to believe that you'd have to believe that all the national standards are based on nothing. Some people do seem to believe that. That's their business, as long as they keep their crappy fuel to themselves.>I'm interested in some insight on this difference of opinion. I'm >sure most experienced biodieselers here wash their biodiesel.>>Would it be worthwhile to distill the methanol from the biodiesel >instead of just washing it away?The most convenient stage to reclaim the excess methanol would be immediately after the processing, when the mix is still hot. Unfortunately that means you reverse the very reaction you've just completed (hopefully completed). You have to settle and separate the glycerine by-product first. Most of the excess methanol is in the by-product; the small proportion in the biodiesel can be recovered, if you can find an economical way of doing it.>I know this still leaves excess hydroxidesAnd soaps.>that still need to be washed out, but it might reduce the number of >washes necessaryDoubtful.>and you might be able to save some of your methanol.Indeed.Best wishesKeith___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
Greetings the skapegoat The JTF website strongly recommends washing and the Josh Tickell book seems to suggest it isn't necessary and possibly even detrimental. Bad book! See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/31729/ You might also note that the JtF website says why it strongly recommends washing, with a couple of references provided (there could have been plenty more): http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html#why Washing: Why bother? IIRC Joshua Tickell provides one obscure and outdated reference. Rudi Weidegger of FuelMeister fame (or infamy), who Joshua's since teamed up with, also recommends no washing and says it's bad for your motor, with no references, but then he doesn't provide a washtank in his exorbitant set-up. Ho-hum. Anyway, to believe that you'd have to believe that all the national standards are based on nothing. Some people do seem to believe that. That's their business, as long as they keep their crappy fuel to themselves. I'm interested in some insight on this difference of opinion. I'm sure most experienced biodieselers here wash their biodiesel. Would it be worthwhile to distill the methanol from the biodiesel instead of just washing it away? The most convenient stage to reclaim the excess methanol would be immediately after the processing, when the mix is still hot. Unfortunately that means you reverse the very reaction you've just completed (hopefully completed). You have to settle and separate the glycerine by-product first. Most of the excess methanol is in the by-product; the small proportion in the biodiesel can be recovered, if you can find an economical way of doing it. I know this still leaves excess hydroxides And soaps. that still need to be washed out, but it might reduce the number of washes necessary Doubtful. and you might be able to save some of your methanol. Indeed. Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] washing?
Welcome Kobus Hi all im a newcomber to making biodiesel and will be making my first batch soon but need some help in washing the diesel See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html Washing: Why bother? Which way is best? Mist-washing Bubble washing Stir washing Settling Recycling the wash-water Washing temperature Emulsions Using acid Wash-water disposal Drying the fuel the rest i got from a friend And everything else you need to know is here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html Make your own biodiesel Best wishes Keith thanx Kobus S.A. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] washing?
Hi all im a newcomber to making biodiesel and will be making my first batch soon but need some help in washing the diesel the rest i got from a friend thanx Kobus S.A. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mike Weaver Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 3:03 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing? I always wash *and* neutralize the leftover lye - but then I'm pretty paranoid. Some of the gurus I met at Piedmont don't, others swear you have to. the skapegoat wrote: > The JTF website strongly recommends washing and the Josh Tickell book > seems to suggest it isn't necessary and possibly even detrimental. > I'm interested in some insight on this difference of opinion. I'm > sure most experienced biodieselers here wash their biodiesel. > > Would it be worthwhile to distill the methanol from the biodiesel > instead of just washing it away? I know this still leaves excess > hydroxides that still need to be washed out, but it might reduce the > number of washes necessary and you might be able to save some of your > methanol. > > Send instant messages to your online friends > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] washing?
I always wash *and* neutralize the leftover lye - but then I'm pretty paranoid. Some of the gurus I met at Piedmont don't, others swear you have to. the skapegoat wrote: The JTF website strongly recommends washing and the Josh Tickell book seems to suggest it isn't necessary and possibly even detrimental. I'm interested in some insight on this difference of opinion. I'm sure most experienced biodieselers here wash their biodiesel. Would it be worthwhile to distill the methanol from the biodiesel instead of just washing it away? I know this still leaves excess hydroxides that still need to be washed out, but it might reduce the number of washes necessary and you might be able to save some of your methanol. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] washing?
The JTF website strongly recommends washing and the Josh Tickell book seems to suggest it isn't necessary and possibly even detrimental. I'm interested in some insight on this difference of opinion. I'm sure most experienced biodieselers here wash their biodiesel. Would it be worthwhile to distill the methanol from the biodiesel instead of just washing it away? I know this still leaves excess hydroxides that still need to be washed out, but it might reduce the number of washes necessary and you might be able to save some of your methanol.Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] WASHING
Not sure I will talk to you on the week end on the phone.. love me. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 5:23 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WASHING Hello Vince Bubble washing might not be the best method anyway. We still use it, but mostly we stir-wash - faster and better, and it doesn't oxidise your fuel. But you have to process it properly in the first place, with good completion. Well, you have to do that anyway, don't you? See: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg37251.html Re: [biofuel] Questions Speed-up washing biodiesel Best wishes Keith >hello all, > >justa few questions about washing, i have bought an aquarium pump >with two different settings on it Hi \ Lo and am wondering if hi is >to many bubbles. i haven't read anything about to many bubbles and >was wondering. i am washing 40 gallons of BioD i will use about 10 - >15 gallons of water. Also wondering about hard and soft water. we >have soft water here in Vancouver BC and had read something about it >making the soap foam up more. what can i do about this or has anyone >experienced anything to do with soft water? > > >thanks you all > >vince zadworny ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WASHING
Hello DB I might be able to help a bit. I have used a pump like yours. It was a fritz. Then I switched to a luft pump by coral sea. It worked much better for a while. Then the case cracked and it leaked air. I'm guessing the plastic case couldn't handle the gasses from bio-d production. I liked it cause it had a rheostat and gave out plenty of bubbles. My water is as soft as it gets. I live on catchment and only get rainwater. Currently I am using a Tetra tek deep water pump DW-96. No rheostat so I had to hook up an air valve to regulate the flow. What you have to do is adjust the air flow way down for the initial wash (first wash) you don't want any bubbles to stay floating on the surface. To vigorous of a wash at this point could be disasterous. I wash 50 gal at a time and I first sprinkle in 15 or 20 gal with a lawn sprinkler suspended over the oil. the bubble makers are two 36 in flexible bubble wands mounted on a heavy metal screen. I do this light bubble wash for 12 hrs or so then drain out the water and sprinkle in another 20 gal of fresh water. This time I crank the air pump up full blast and let er rip for another 12 hrs. I then drain out that water and Sprinkle in another 20 gal. This time I stir it good with my long stir wand mounted on a heavy duty 1/2 in drill motor. The good bio settles out within hours. Then I let it settle till clear(takes about a week) or I transfer it to my heating tank and heat it up to 170 f then it is ready next day. Hope this helps. Anybody have anything to add? I've been making Bio-diesel since Dec 02 but it's all been learn as you go, trial and error. Made thousands of gallons and only had one bad batch from oil that had been sitting in 55 gal drums and was badly contaminated by water.Drive down the road happyDB Well, you're oxidising it. I'm not convinced that mixing biodiesel made from high IV oils with bd made from lower IV oils solves the polymerisation problem, only mitigates it, and bubble-washing will exacerbate it. Once again, see: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg37251.html Re: [biofuel] Questions Speed-up washing biodiesel - P.s. I recommend using KOH not NaOH cause it's fertilizer for plants. Only up to a point. And so is sodium, also up to a point, and there's not a lot of difference. For more information on this see: http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 5-June/000171.html [Biofuel] BAD LYE?? We also prefer KOH, primarily because it's much easier to use, and it does a better job, IMHO. Best wishes Keith Original Message - From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Vincent zadworny To: <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 1:16 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WASHING hello all, justa few questions about washing, i have bought an aquarium pump with two different settings on it Hi \ Lo and am wondering if hi is to many bubbles. i haven't read anything about to many bubbles and was wondering. i am washing 40 gallons of BioD i will use about 10 - 15 gallons of water. Also wondering about hard and soft water. we have soft water here in Vancouver BC and had read something about it making the soap foam up more. what can i do about this or has anyone experienced anything to do with soft water? thanks you all vince zadworny ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WASHING
I might be able to help a bit. I have used a pump like yours. It was a fritz. Then I switched to a luft pump by coral sea. It worked much better for a while. Then the case cracked and it leaked air. I'm guessing the plastic case couldn't handle the gasses from bio-d production. I liked it cause it had a rheostat and gave out plenty of bubbles. My water is as soft as it gets. I live on catchment and only get rainwater. Currently I am using a Tetra tek deep water pump DW-96. No rheostat so I had to hook up an air valve to regulate the flow. What you have to do is adjust the air flow way down for the initial wash (first wash) you don't want any bubbles to stay floating on the surface. To vigorous of a wash at this point could be disasterous. I wash 50 gal at a time and I first sprinkle in 15 or 20 gal with a lawn sprinkler suspended over the oil. the bubble makers are two 36 in flexible bubble wands mounted on a heavy metal screen. I do this light bubble wash for 12 hrs or so then drain out the water and sprinkle in another 20 gal of fresh water. This time I crank the air pump up full blast and let er rip for another 12 hrs. I then drain out that water and Sprinkle in another 20 gal. This time I stir it good with my long stir wand mounted on a heavy duty 1/2 in drill motor. The good bio settles out within hours. Then I let it settle till clear(takes about a week) or I transfer it to my heating tank and heat it up to 170 f then it is ready next day. Hope this helps. Anybody have anything to add? I've been making Bio-diesel since Dec 02 but it's all been learn as you go, trial and error. Made thousands of gallons and only had one bad batch from oil that had been sitting in 55 gal drums and was badly contaminated by water.Drive down the road happyDB - P.s. I recommend using KOH not NaOH cause it's fertilizer for plants.Original Message - From: Vincent zadworny To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 1:16 PM Subject: [Biofuel] WASHING hello all, justa few questions about washing, i have bought an aquarium pump with two different settings on it Hi \ Lo and am wondering if hi is to many bubbles. i haven't read anything about to many bubbles and was wondering. i am washing 40 gallons of BioD i will use about 10 - 15 gallons of water. Also wondering about hard and soft water. we have soft water here in Vancouver BC and had read something about it making the soap foam up more. what can i do about this or has anyone experienced anything to do with soft water? thanks you all vince zadworny __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WASHING
you can "harden" soft water by adding Mg or Ca ions. I use Epsom salt: MgSO4.7H2O Vincent zadworny wrote: hello all, justa few questions about washing, i have bought an aquarium pump with two different settings on it Hi \ Lo and am wondering if hi is to many bubbles. i haven't read anything about to many bubbles and was wondering. i am washing 40 gallons of BioD i will use about 10 - 15 gallons of water. Also wondering about hard and soft water. we have soft water here in Vancouver BC and had read something about it making the soap foam up more. what can i do about this or has anyone experienced anything to do with soft water? thanks you all vince zadworny __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.1 - Release Date: 6/13/2005 -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob "Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WASHING
Hello Vince Bubble washing might not be the best method anyway. We still use it, but mostly we stir-wash - faster and better, and it doesn't oxidise your fuel. But you have to process it properly in the first place, with good completion. Well, you have to do that anyway, don't you? See: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg37251.html Re: [biofuel] Questions Speed-up washing biodiesel Best wishes Keith hello all, justa few questions about washing, i have bought an aquarium pump with two different settings on it Hi \ Lo and am wondering if hi is to many bubbles. i haven't read anything about to many bubbles and was wondering. i am washing 40 gallons of BioD i will use about 10 - 15 gallons of water. Also wondering about hard and soft water. we have soft water here in Vancouver BC and had read something about it making the soap foam up more. what can i do about this or has anyone experienced anything to do with soft water? thanks you all vince zadworny ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] WASHING
hello all, justa few questions about washing, i have bought an aquarium pump with two different settings on it Hi \ Lo and am wondering if hi is to many bubbles. i haven't read anything about to many bubbles and was wondering. i am washing 40 gallons of BioD i will use about 10 - 15 gallons of water. Also wondering about hard and soft water. we have soft water here in Vancouver BC and had read something about it making the soap foam up more. what can i do about this or has anyone experienced anything to do with soft water? thanks you all vince zadworny__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Washing Biodiesel
Hi Ray, We are thankful for the quality and plentifulness of our water supply. The people I was referring to are visitors or newcomers. Established citizens are well aware of the benefits of soft water on skin. Thanks, Bill Clark - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Washing Biodiesel > Bill: > > The folks in your town should be thankful. After their shower they > still have a thin layer of natural (and yet clean) oils on their skin. > Others, like me, need to soften our water to accomplish that or live > with dry cracking skin, especially in the winter. > > > Ray > > On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:11:25 -0400, Bill Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > Hi Terry, > > > > Here is one from the archives: Message #45295. There is a post from > > Keith that > > refers to problems with soft water, nothing detailed, but I can't seem > > to find > > it right now. > > > > Soft water problems make sense to me. People who don't live here often > > complain > > that they can't get the soap off in the shower. Your pretty slick when > > you step > > out of the shower here. When washing clothes we only use half the > > recommended > > rate of detergent. > > > > I should have been more detailed about my conversation with the water > > works > > people. They gave me a target of 60-80 ppm of hardness. This will > > provide enough > > hardness without affecting the ability of the water to dissolve soaps. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Bill Clark > > > > - Original Message - > > > > From: Terry DeSimone > > > > To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 2:27 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Washing Biodiesel > > > > > > Hello Bill, > > > > Thought I'd read about everything there was on biodiesel,but don't recall > > anything on water hardness. Could you direct me to a link or post so I > > can learn > > more about this? By "hardness" I'm assuming you mean calcium? > > > > Terry > > > > Bill Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Sorry for the unrelated text at the bottom of my last e-mail regarding > > Acusorb beads. Meant to cut that. > > > > I have been experiencing wash problems (bubble wash using Simon's super > > bubbler), specifically failures in the wash test. At first I suspected > > titration problems as well as process problems. Then I saw the message in > > the archives regarding soft water. The municipal water supply in the > > City of > > Eufaula is very soft (near 0 grains of hardness). It also has a pH of > > 8.5. > > Treating the wash water with vinegar resulted in some reduction of > > emulsion > > formation but not complete elimination of the problem. > > > > After consulting the City's water works, I began using a water hardness > > increaser made for use in swimming pools. The results were dramatic; > > complete elimination of emulsions. I now use .5 oz. of hardness > > increaser in > > 50 gallons of wash wa! ter (200 gal. biodiesel) along with 1 cup of > > vinegar. > > This increases hardness by 60 ppm. The manufacturer of the hardness > > increaser informed me that I may see some scale formation with the > > addition > > of vinegar but I will cross that bridge when I reach it. > > > > As I stated in my previous post, I use Acusorb beads as the final step > > in my > > washing process. It does a fine job of drying and buffering the > > biodiesel. I > > now use 1 wash before filtering the biodiesel through the beads. A shake > > test of the final product using distilled water results in very fast > > separation with clear biodiesel on top and pH nuetral water on the > > bottom. > > > > I am neither recommending nor condemning the use of Acusorb beads. I have > > found a way to make them useful to me. My use of the beads is more a > > matter > > of speed of process. If time were not a factor, the cost of the beads > > might > > prohibit my use of them. > > > > If there are factors I have neglected please let me know. Even though! I > > have > > good results in my final shake test, my obsessive-compulsive nature > > keeps me > > from feeling cofident about anything. > > > > Good biodieseling to everyone. > > > > Bill Clark > > > > > > _
Re: [Biofuel] Washing Biodiesel
Bill: The folks in your town should be thankful. After their shower they still have a thin layer of natural (and yet clean) oils on their skin. Others, like me, need to soften our water to accomplish that or live with dry cracking skin, especially in the winter. Ray On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:11:25 -0400, Bill Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Terry, Here is one from the archives: Message #45295. There is a post from Keith that refers to problems with soft water, nothing detailed, but I can't seem to find it right now. Soft water problems make sense to me. People who don't live here often complain that they can't get the soap off in the shower. Your pretty slick when you step out of the shower here. When washing clothes we only use half the recommended rate of detergent. I should have been more detailed about my conversation with the water works people. They gave me a target of 60-80 ppm of hardness. This will provide enough hardness without affecting the ability of the water to dissolve soaps. Best wishes, Bill Clark - Original Message - From: Terry DeSimone To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 2:27 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Washing Biodiesel Hello Bill, Thought I'd read about everything there was on biodiesel,but don't recall anything on water hardness. Could you direct me to a link or post so I can learn more about this? By "hardness" I'm assuming you mean calcium? Terry Bill Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Sorry for the unrelated text at the bottom of my last e-mail regarding Acusorb beads. Meant to cut that. I have been experiencing wash problems (bubble wash using Simon's super bubbler), specifically failures in the wash test. At first I suspected titration problems as well as process problems. Then I saw the message in the archives regarding soft water. The municipal water supply in the City of Eufaula is very soft (near 0 grains of hardness). It also has a pH of 8.5. Treating the wash water with vinegar resulted in some reduction of emulsion formation but not complete elimination of the problem. After consulting the City's water works, I began using a water hardness increaser made for use in swimming pools. The results were dramatic; complete elimination of emulsions. I now use .5 oz. of hardness increaser in 50 gallons of wash wa! ter (200 gal. biodiesel) along with 1 cup of vinegar. This increases hardness by 60 ppm. The manufacturer of the hardness increaser informed me that I may see some scale formation with the addition of vinegar but I will cross that bridge when I reach it. As I stated in my previous post, I use Acusorb beads as the final step in my washing process. It does a fine job of drying and buffering the biodiesel. I now use 1 wash before filtering the biodiesel through the beads. A shake test of the final product using distilled water results in very fast separation with clear biodiesel on top and pH nuetral water on the bottom. I am neither recommending nor condemning the use of Acusorb beads. I have found a way to make them useful to me. My use of the beads is more a matter of speed of process. If time were not a factor, the cost of the beads might prohibit my use of them. If there are factors I have neglected please let me know. Even though! I have good results in my final shake test, my obsessive-compulsive nature keeps me from feeling cofident about anything. Good biodieseling to everyone. Bill Clark ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the full Biofuel list archives (46,000 messages): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Search the Biofuels-biz list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuels-biz/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the full Biofuel list archives (46,000 messages): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Search the Biofuels-biz list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuels-biz/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the full Biofuel list archives (46,000 messages): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Search the Biofuels-biz list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuels-biz/ -- Ray or Shiraz Ings [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1-613-253-1311 Using M2
Re: [Biofuel] Washing Biodiesel
Hi Terry, Looks like the reaction 2RCOONa + Ca (Acetate)2 --> (RCOO)2Ca + 2Na(Acetate) to me. (soluble soap) + (hard water) --> (insol. scum) + (soluble salt) Bill has achieved a way of removing fatty acids dissolved in biodiesel. Congrats to Bill. Sabash! Terry DeSimone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello Bill, Thought I'd read about everything there was on biodiesel,but don't recall anything on water hardness. Could you direct me to a link or post so I can learn more about this? By "hardness" I'm assuming you mean calcium? TerryBill Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Sorry for the unrelated text at the bottom of my last e-mail regardingAcusorb beads. Meant to cut that.I have been experiencing wash problems (bubble wash using Simon's superbubbler), specifically failures in the wash test. At first I suspectedtitration problems as well as process problems. Then I saw the message inthe archives regarding soft water. The municipal water supply in the City ofEufaula is very soft (near 0 grains of hardness). It also has a pH of 8.5.Treating the wash water with vinegar resulted in some reduction of emulsionformation but not complete elimination of the problem.After consulting the City's water works, I began using a water hardnessincreaser made for use in swimming pools. The results were dramatic;complete elimination of emulsions. I now use .5 oz. of hardness increaser in50 gallons of wash water (200 gal. biodiesel) along with 1 cup of vinegar.This increases hardness by 60 ppm. The manufacturer of the hardnessincreaser informed me that I may see some scale formation with the additionof vinegar but I will cross that bridge when I reach it.As I stated in my previous post, I use Acusorb beads as the final step in mywashing process. It does a fine job of drying and buffering the biodiesel. Inow use 1 wash before filtering the biodiesel through the beads. A shaketest of the final product using distilled water results in very fastseparation with clear biodiesel on top and pH nuetral water on the bottom.I am neither recommending nor condemning the use of Acusorb beads. I havefound a way to make them useful to me. My use of the beads is more a matterof speed of process. If time were not a factor, the cost of the beads mightprohibit my use of them.If there are factors I have neglected please let me know. Even though I havegood results in my final shake test, my obsessive-compulsive nature keeps mefrom feeling cofident about anything.Good biodieseling to everyone.Bill Clark___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the full Biofuel list archives (46,000 messages):http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/Search the Biofuels-biz list archives:http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuels-biz/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the full Biofuel list archives (46,000 messages):http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/Search the Biofuels-biz list archives:http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuels-biz/ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the full Biofuel list archives (46,000 messages): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Search the Biofuels-biz list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuels-biz/
Re: [Biofuel] washing water
i have already posted a message in relation to this matter Three times before this one, all of them similar. and the answers i have gotten do not suffice. All your questions were answered, the last time along with those of another member asking similar questions around the same time. That you still keep asking seems to indicate that it might be your attention level that does not suffice. The responses are here: http://wwia.org/pipermail/biofuel/Week-of-Mon-20041108/thread.html#2634 http://wwia.org/pipermail/biofuel/Week-of-Mon-20041108/thread.html#2838 i aim to bulid a biodiesel plant which would produce 1 cubice metre of biodiesel every 2 hours, which would result in the same amount of wash water being produced. What i want to know is wheather this wash water if released into a nearby stream would cause problems if it pH is neutralised, or what is the the consistency of this water. Well, Todd's answered you again now (hopefully you'll see it this time), but he's said it before - it's worth saying again, but didn't you check the archives for the information you want? After all, a million-litre per year biodiesel plant such as you're proposing is obviously a commercial operation, normally you should be expecting to pay megabucks in consultancy fees for the information you're getting here for nothing, and it's probably better info anyway, but you can't even be bothered to look properly? Keith Addison List owner Do your homework. It's often said that one's favorite deity helps those who helps themselves. The truth in that statement depends on the faith of the reader, but what is true is that regulars on most groups are much more interested in helping people who have first exhausted their own resources. For one, those're usually the questions that're more interesting, the puzzles that're more challenging to solve. If it looks like it could be a hard problem, it also shows that there can be active cooperation with the person with the problem-a vital requirement to solving anything difficult. If it's an easy problem but the person asking it tried hard and is still stumped, nearly everybody will have sympathy. Everybody knows what it's like to have given something your all, only to fail until somebody else gave a helping hand. If, on the other hand, it's an easy problem that could have been answered with a minimum amount of effortÉwell, it's just a waste of everybody's time. The person who asked the question could have gotten the answer in a fraction of the time it'll take to get a reply from the group. The note adds to the omnipresent clutter and noise in the electronic world, wasting a minute of time from hundreds of people. And it often gets people's hackles up, which sometimes results in heated arguments, further wasting people's time and energy. But the biggest reason for doing your homework before you post is that you'll almost always find the answer yourself. People-you included-learn much better when they come to the answer through their own means; having somebody dictate the solution won't really make it stick. There's an excellent chance that you'll also discover something else useful along the way. Even if not, you'll get better skilled at research. -- From: Netiquette http://www.trumpetpower.com/Rants/Netiquette ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] washing water
viability of a process. I don't have the answer but know that the water would probably be considered a hazardous waste because of its alcohol content. Don't know what to do about it but somebody must have had wash water tested for contaminents. I'm not really surprised that folks don't want to talk about it. Don't want to talk about it? Tell you who talks about it: the Biofuel list archives does. Lots! Including the answer(s) you don't have. Check it out. http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Information Archive at NNYTech Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] washing water
This is a much avoided question but central to the longterm viability of a process. I don't have the answer but know that the water would probably be considered a hazardous waste because of its alcohol content. Don't know what to do about it but somebody must have had wash water tested for contaminents. I'm not really surprised that folks don't want to talk about it. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] washing water
Direct release into a stream is ill advised, no matter what it is that you're processing. Better for you to apply it as gray water irrigation upsight from any drainage and let the soils filter it further, all the while getting some utility out of both the large volume of water and any contaminants it holds. You'll want to do several things prior to release. 1) Use potassium hydroxide as your catalyst to reduce problems in later co-product treatment/disposal. 2) Use a process that produces the highest conversion rates so as to reduce the amount of soap that might end up in a wash. Acid/base is recommended. 3) Allow as long a period as possible to let the glycerol cocktail settle out after the transesterification stage. Twenty-four hours in a well insulated tank to maintain an elevated temp is not unreasonable. 4) Pass the biodiesel fraction through an evaporator/distillation process prior to washing to remove the majority of the residual methanol. Pot distillation is not sufficient. These steps will reduce the amount of contaminants that are introduced into the wash water. From there you'll need to pursue treatment steps that remove the soap. The easiest is to introduce magnesium or aluminum sulfate, which will convert the soluble soaps to insoluble greases and permit their removal. The next stage would be to precipitate the potassium or sodium sulfate if the level is too high for soils to absorb in a sustainable fashion (bio-accumulation / bio-loading). Realize that some soils can benfit from the potassium and/or sulfate. You'll need to become familiar with the soils around your facility and what their needs are. You may also need to orchestrate the planting of specific plants/crops that can achieve a maximum uptake of whatever "nutrients" you place on the soils. This will further reduce the possiblity of bio-loading and run-off into any drainage/hydrology. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: "tommy newman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 5:23 PM Subject: [Biofuel] washing water i have already posted a message in relation to this matter and the answers i have gotten do not suffice. i aim to bulid a biodiesel plant which would produce 1 cubice metre of biodiesel every 2 hours, which would result in the same amount of wash water being produced. What i want to know is wheather this wash water if released into a nearby stream would cause problems if it pH is neutralised, or what is the the consistency of this water. ___ Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] washing water
i have already posted a message in relation to this matter and the answers i have gotten do not suffice. i aim to bulid a biodiesel plant which would produce 1 cubice metre of biodiesel every 2 hours, which would result in the same amount of wash water being produced. What i want to know is wheather this wash water if released into a nearby stream would cause problems if it pH is neutralised, or what is the the consistency of this water. ___ Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] washing
--- DHAJOGLO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > can someone tell me what the problem > >is? > > Are you letting it settle for a good chunck of time? > It is probably water suspended in the fuel. Is the > fuel cold (say around or below 10 deg c?). > > -dave > I allowed it to settle for a few days. Cloudy suspension occured when i washed with water. So, it is likely to be a soap suspension. I added 15 drops of phosphoric acid to change soap to FA's. But it did not make any difference. However, the biodiesel burns alright. I also a biodiesel using a fresh rapseed oil. It is much clearer and yellow in colour where SWO is brown in colour. fox > > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] washing
to settle out any soap. and you can heat it up slightly to help release the remaining water..DB - Original Message - From: "fox mulder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 5:51 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing Hi all, I have made biodiesel from wvo. The product appears clearer without washing. When I washed it the biodiesel became murky. After several washes it remained murky. can someone tell me what the problem is? fox ___ Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality. Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] washing
can someone tell me what the problem >is? Are you letting it settle for a good chunck of time? It is probably water suspended in the fuel. Is the fuel cold (say around or below 10 deg c?). -dave ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] washing
Hi all, I have made biodiesel from wvo. The product appears clearer without washing. When I washed it the biodiesel became murky. After several washes it remained murky. can someone tell me what the problem is? fox ___ Moving house? Beach bar in Thailand? New Wardrobe? Win £10k with Yahoo! Mail to make your dream a reality. Get Yahoo! Mail www.yahoo.co.uk/10k ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Washing Gone Wayward
Excellent insight Aleks, thank you very much. I'll give it a shot and post my findings. My goodness, the learning curve is time intensive! Now, however, I'm curious as to why mono or di glycerides would concentrate in the wash water. Enough catalyst but not enough methanol? Incomplete reaction? h. Thanks again, Joey Mono and di-glycs, for one, have a bigger molecular weight than methylates, meaning, as a rule of thumb, a bigger specific weight. Thus, on the other hand, meaning a concentration in the bottom portion of your brew. And some mono and di-glycs are also emulsifiers, which perforce positions them between the water (the polar phase) and the esters (non-polar phase). So, they don't concentrate in the wash water but in the whole phase divide. What should you do? Can't really say, I don't know your process. A few tricks: you could mix a little longer, add more meth, add more lye, combine the three, play with the temperature. None of these solutions might give a satisfactory result, as the TE reaction never really completes. It somewhat depends on the quality of the oil. Find biodiesel troubleshooting also on JtF and in the archives. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
RE: [Biofuel] Washing Gone Wayward
Excellent insight Aleks, thank you very much. I'll give it a shot and post my findings. My goodness, the learning curve is time intensive! Now, however, I'm curious as to why mono or di glycerides would concentrate in the wash water. Enough catalyst but not enough methanol? Incomplete reaction? h. Thanks again, Joey -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 10:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Washing Gone Wayward Chickensoup! (at least a mild case). When heating does not disperse an emulsion you have to resort to heavier mallets. Usually lowering/raising the pH does the trick. Since you do not want any more emulsion, you should lower the pH, using citric acid, vinegar or phosphoric acid in na 10% or less solution. Turn on your bubler on and add the acid (5%) of your washing water. Wash as usual, followed by at least 2x water only and reheat. This should do the trick. Next time dont mix the bottom layer of washed bio with water and bio. It seems to be an emulsifier. I collected these bottom inch layers in a separate vessel and after some settling you can still save a lot of bio when the vessel is full. Cheers, Aleks ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Washing Gone Wayward
Chickensoup! (at least a mild case). When heating does not disperse an emulsion you have to resort to heavier mallets. Usually lowering/raising the pH does the trick. Since you do not want any more emulsion, you should lower the pH, using citric acid, vinegar or phosphoric acid in na 10% or less solution. Turn on your bubler on and add the acid (5%) of your washing water. Wash as usual, followed by at least 2x water only and reheat. This should do the trick. Next time dont mix the bottom layer of washed bio with water and bio. It seems to be an emulsifier. I collected these bottom inch layers in a separate vessel and after some settling you can still save a lot of bio when the vessel is full. Cheers, Aleks ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Washing Gone Wayward
Alrighty Folks, In a bit of a pickle here. I bubble-washed my 100L batch of BioD in a thermally insulated reactor, heated to about 115F. I washed it 3 times. Afterwards, it was beautiful and crystal clear. I have a 2 valve system on my reactor, one at the very bottom, and one 1/3 the way up from the bottom. I opened the bottom valve to get the wash water out of the vessel and hopefully drain the clean BioD out as well, however, things began to go awry. When most of the water had drained out of the vessel, a bit of BioD was pouring out with it. I noticed the BioD building up on the top of my wastewater collection, and I began to fear that rather than the wastewater stopping altogether, it would just slowly decrease, thereby contaminating my precious BioD. So, I closed the bottom valve and began to decant pure BioD out of the top valve (and harvested about 36L out of the 100L). This worked wonderfully well, and I obviously kicked myself for not having decanted before opening the bottom valve (live and learn baby!). It worked so well, that I figured I'd float the rest of the BioD back up to the higher valve to decant it as well. This is where things begin to suck. I decided to use the wastewater as the floatation device, not wanting to use any more fresh water, and figuring that I could reclaim some of the BioD that slipped out with it. Well, (along with the BioD that had mixed REALLY well with the wastewater) I must have added the wastewater back a little to vigorously because what was once crystal clear BioD became opaque maple syrup. Instead of panicking, I consulted the Keith and Todd chapter in my brain and remembered something about just heating it up to 120F for a day or 2 and everything being ok. And that boiling was just a waste of energy. So, I heated it up for about 2 days and let it do it's thing. Then, I turned off the heat and let it sit for 4 days at an average temp of just above freezing (Edmonton, AB). As it stands (or sits) right now, the BioD is still cloudy and I can see little water droplets floating around in it when I take samples. Please oh Please tell me I can remedy this prob. Do I need to bring the BioD up to a boil to get the water out? I've got plenty of pallets and veg glycerin lying around so that shouldn't be a problem. Thanks for reading. Any suggestions y'all? From the frozen grease dumpsters of Edmonton, Joey PS - I made my virgin voyage on BioD this weekend into the Canadian Rockies for some winter camping. Truly marvelous, and I thank you all wholeheartedly. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] washing water
dissolved soaps exchanges with the magnesium ion from the salt (magnesium sulfate). The soaps come out of solution as a grease, which can be skimmed off prior to release. The chemical product that is released becomes potassium or sodium sulfate. The potassium is far more usable by the soil than is sodium, thus the benefit of using potassium hydroxided as catalyst rather than sodium hydroxide. I've asked a chemist to review the rates of release and come up with a level that would approach an issue with bio-loading. A little sulfur can be a good thing. Too much and you end up lowering pH and locking out nutrients to the plants. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing water B) Recover your soap fraction from the gray water. Accomplished by treating the waste water with magnesium or aluminum sulfate. can you explain more about this?? please give some details thanks ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] washing water
treating the waste water with magnesium or aluminum sulfate. can you explain more about this?? please give some details thanks To save Todd the trouble, and in yet another attempt to encourage the use - the PRIOR use (look before ask) - of the Extremely Useful But Vastly Under-used Archives): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/37477/ Information Archive at NNYTech Date: 2004-08-11 From: Appal Energy Subject: Re: [biofuel] Questions Speed-up washing biodiesel http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/34022/ Information Archive at NNYTech Date: 2004-04-30 From: Appal Energy Subject: [biofuel] Re: Epsom Salts and wash water Seek and ye shall most probably find. http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Information Archive at NNYTech Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] washing water
>B) Recover your soap fraction from the gray water. Accomplished by treating >the waste water with magnesium or aluminum sulfate. can you explain more about this?? please give some details thanks ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] washing water
the Big Isle. It used to be cheap to fly but not anymore. It depends how long you will be staying.I wouldn't plan on sailing with anybody that I didn't know and most people feel the same way. I used to have a sailboat and have lived on them and did a fair amount of sailing. Now you would have a hard time getting me on one, but I surf or swim in the ocean everyday if I can...January is a nice time to be here..Aloha...DB - Original Message - From: "John Guttridge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 5:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing water I am going to be in HI in january, what is the best way to go between the islands on the cheap, I am something of a sailor, is it likely that I might be able to hitch a ride on a sailboat if I can tow my weight or will I only be able to fly? John DB wrote: I recommend using KOH. I make 120 gal BD per month and the glycerin is heated up to remove some methanol. Then I delute it 1/4 glycerin to 3/4 water add 1/4 cup blood or feather meal 1 cup bone meal and water my fruit trees with it. I live in Hawaii and my banana trees are very happyPunasurfer - Original Message - From: "tommy newman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 2:31 PM Subject: [Biofuel] washing water I am very much interested of the effects if any the water used for washing the biodiesl has on plants and if it is put into rivers the effects, or what it contains. I have been told it contains salts i.e. Calcium and sodium /potassium but that has not been confirmed. ___ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] washing water
diluted with water. Switch to KOHDB - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 6:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing water has anyone had the wash water tested?? and will to provide those results to the rest of us?? I know that wash water will kill grass and weeds very well, when using sodium instead of potassium. i want to know what i can do to make it less toxic to the grass. any help?? thanks challeng71 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] washing water
A) Recover your alcohol from the biodiesel prior to wash. Accomplished through evaporation/distillation. B) Recover your soap fraction from the gray water. Accomplished by treating the waste water with magnesium or aluminum sulfate. C) Reduce the concentration of gray wter per square foot. (Dilution is the solution to polution?) D) Reduce the frequency of gray water application to any particular surface area. E) Check the pH of your soils. Gray water can lower soil pH and inhibit the ability of foliage to uptake nutrients, creating susceptibility to disease and harsh weather conditions. Hydrated lime would be a quick pH adjuster, both for soil and gray water. Since you're adding sodium or potassium, it would be wiser to use gypsum than hydrated lime. An excess of either sodium or potassium will have the effect of turning clay particles into the equivalent of a well-laid layer of bricks - a clay pan. Gypsum will keep them behaving more like marbles - permeable. Seeking to adjust the pH of soil is a bit like putting a child with a fever into an icy bath to bring the temperature down. The high temperature is not the problem, just an indicator. Similarly with soil pH. In soils, there's a lot pH won't tell you. What makes up the pH is much more important than the mere level. In a healthy soil with ideal conditions for plant growth, the cation proportions are: calcium 60 to 70 percent, magnesium 10 to 15 percent, potassium two to five percent, sodium 0.5 to three percent, hydrogen 10 to 15 percent, and other nutrients two to four percent. So you can add sodium or potassium up to those levels with no harm. Too much sodium and/or potassium will unbalance the soil both physically (sticky clay) and biologically (less biological activity overall, higher proportion of anaerobes and pathogens). (Not a lot of farmers know about this, just adding their lime to raise the pH, nor why it gets acid in the first place.) Composting widens the margins for error considerably (clay-humus colloid vs clay colloid). Looking at it another way, rather than trying to fiddle with the minerals and their ratios one to another, adding compost to increase the soil microbiological activity to a maximum (which also happens to be the optimum for plant growth and health) will result in the correct cation proportions. This means high organic-matter (humus) levels and higher overall volumes of all the cation elements, and thus of a soil's capacity to absorb sodium or potassium without harm. So, it's an excellent idea to compost any soil that you're adding greywater to, especially biodiesel washwater. It will buffer the soil and considerably increase the amount of greywater that can be absorbed without damage. By compost I mean aerobic, thermophilic (hot) composting, properly prepared with the correct initial C:N ratio, moisture content and aeration. See: http://journeytoforever.org/compost.html Composting Best wishes Keith - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 11:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing water has anyone had the wash water tested?? and will to provide those results to the rest of us?? I know that wash water will kill grass and weeds very well, when using sodium instead of potassium. i want to know what i can do to make it less toxic to the grass. any help?? thanks challeng71 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] washing water
help?? A) Recover your alcohol from the biodiesel prior to wash. Accomplished through evaporation/distillation. B) Recover your soap fraction from the gray water. Accomplished by treating the waste water with magnesium or aluminum sulfate. C) Reduce the concentration of gray wter per square foot. (Dilution is the solution to polution?) D) Reduce the frequency of gray water application to any particular surface area. E) Check the pH of your soils. Gray water can lower soil pH and inhibit the ability of foliage to uptake nutrients, creating susceptibility to disease and harsh weather conditions. Hydrated lime would be a quick pH adjuster, both for soil and gray water. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 11:27 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] washing water has anyone had the wash water tested?? and will to provide those results to the rest of us?? I know that wash water will kill grass and weeds very well, when using sodium instead of potassium. i want to know what i can do to make it less toxic to the grass. any help?? thanks challeng71 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] washing water
has anyone had the wash water tested?? and will to provide those results to the rest of us?? I know that wash water will kill grass and weeds very well, when using sodium instead of potassium. i want to know what i can do to make it less toxic to the grass. any help?? thanks challeng71 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] washing water
wash waters on it :) The methanol and lye gie it a rude surprise that it doesn't recover from :) Luc - Original Message - From: "tommy newman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 7:31 PM Subject: [Biofuel] washing water I am very much interested of the effects if any the water used for washing the biodiesl has on plants and if it is put into rivers the effects, or what it contains. I have been told it contains salts i.e. Calcium and sodium /potassium but that has not been confirmed. ___ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] washing water
the islands on the cheap, I am something of a sailor, is it likely that I might be able to hitch a ride on a sailboat if I can tow my weight or will I only be able to fly? John DB wrote: I recommend using KOH. I make 120 gal BD per month and the glycerin is heated up to remove some methanol. Then I delute it 1/4 glycerin to 3/4 water add 1/4 cup blood or feather meal 1 cup bone meal and water my fruit trees with it. I live in Hawaii and my banana trees are very happyPunasurfer - Original Message - From: "tommy newman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 2:31 PM Subject: [Biofuel] washing water I am very much interested of the effects if any the water used for washing the biodiesl has on plants and if it is put into rivers the effects, or what it contains. I have been told it contains salts i.e. Calcium and sodium /potassium but that has not been confirmed. ___ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] washing water
heated up to remove some methanol. Then I delute it 1/4 glycerin to 3/4 water add 1/4 cup blood or feather meal 1 cup bone meal and water my fruit trees with it. I live in Hawaii and my banana trees are very happyPunasurfer - Original Message - From: "tommy newman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 2:31 PM Subject: [Biofuel] washing water I am very much interested of the effects if any the water used for washing the biodiesl has on plants and if it is put into rivers the effects, or what it contains. I have been told it contains salts i.e. Calcium and sodium /potassium but that has not been confirmed. ___ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] washing water
I am very much interested of the effects if any the water used for washing the biodiesl has on plants and if it is put into rivers the effects, or what it contains. I have been told it contains salts i.e. Calcium and sodium /potassium but that has not been confirmed. ___ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[biofuel] Washing with a drill-pump
Ah, those drill-pumps ! Wouldn't it be just great if the &*)%&# things didn't break so *&%#$* easily ? I did however sucessfully wash a tank full 80 liter batch with one today. Input came from the standpipe (http://www.veggieavenger.com/avengerboard/viewtopic.php?t=333) and return via the water drain. What happensd is that the input sucks in unwashed BD and then returns it through the water and that causes a rotation that seemed to work satisfactorily although I am still wondering if there isn't a better method. like using a pony pump or something, although I had one (pony pump)and the thing overheated right away, so I got leary of them, but maybe for this application it would work. Any comments ? If all else fails (like my bubbler did) I still have a paint stirrer and a drill:) It is not going to get the best of me, and I WILL come out victorious, Ha! What would life be without the occasional challenge? L. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] washing biodiesel in large processor
Hi Todd,
This mixing method you describe looks much easier than bubble washing or
mist washing.
What I intend to do is to use the pump from my reactor vessel to mix the
biodiesel and water. Presumably this is ok?
You emphasise that it is important that the reaction be fully complete.
From what I have been reading on Journeytoforever it seems that the best way
to ensure that is to use the correct amount of lye, i.e. 3.5 or 4 grams plus
titration plus plenty of excess methanol.
I intend doing my first large batch soon (50 litres). It titrates at 2.4 so
I am going to use say 6.4 grams/litre of lye plus 25% methanol to ensure a
complete reaction.
I have read the journeytoforever advice on the different amounts of methanol
to use for different oils but as I am going to recover the methanol I don't
think it matters if I use too much. I presume most of the excess methanol
will end up in the glycerine and not the biodiesel.
I would appreciate your advice on this. Is there anything radically wrong
with what I have proposed above?
Regards,
Dermot
-Original Message-
From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 09 July 2004 00:36
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] washing biodiesel in large processor
Ardis,
You will find, after enough experimentation and out of pocket costs, that
mechanical agitation in a wash tank is the least expensive, consumes the
least energy, requires the least amount of time and leaves you with a
finished product as good as or better than mist- or bubble-washing.
Plain, pure and simple, mist- and bubble-washing have become
"institutionalized" amongst home-brewers primarily due to the frequency of
incomplete reactions that lend to washing problems. In short, they are both
methods of treating incomplete reactions with little kid's gloves in the
hopes that any resulting emulsion won't be "too bad" or "too noticeable."
The fact of the matter is that no wash method should be used on any batch
unless it is known for certain that the reaction has completed.
Unfortunately, many people fail to guarantee this for themselves, opting to
just "go ahead and wash it gently."
The method of guarantee is extremely simple. Put one ounce of what is
believed to be finished fuel in a baby food jar (or similar) with an equal
amount of water. Seal the jar and shake violently for 15 seconds. Completed
fuel should begin to separate instantly and there should be two distinct
layers in less than ~30 seconds. If it takes longer than this or if an
emulsion layer forms any thicker than the normal "paper thin" interface
layer between oil and water, you've got a batch that has not completed.
The degree of incompletion can vary. If the fuel/water separate slowly but
are by-and-large complete in a matter of 1-2 minutes and there is no
emulsion layer other than the interface, there's no great need to retreat
the reaction if the fuel is intended for personal use. If you have an
emulsion beyond the thin interface layer the batch needs to be retreated. No
amount of light mist- or bubble-washing can change this - unless, of course,
you don't care what grade of fuel you run through your engine.
The wash test and mechanical washing (motor, prop and shaft) work well no
matter what method you use - acid/base or straight base, single or double
stage.
Some concern has been expressed in the past over the use of air to dry fuel,
the concern being fuel oxidation. It's beyond me why those who express such
concern (and rightfully so) don't say word one about bubble washing doing
the exact same thing.
Others express concern with pump- or prop-washed fuel not clearing as
quickly as mist- or bubble-washed. There's sound reason for this, all things
being equal. Pumps and propellers have the ability of better mixing the fuel
and water ("atomizing it"), bringing both in more frequent contact with each
other. This means greater surface to surface contact between water molecules
and all suspended/dissolved impurities. Fifteen minutes with a 1/2 hp motor
and 4" - 6" prop in a 200 gallon wash tank or bigger will achieve the same
thing or more as an all-day-affair with a mist- or bubble-washer. This
allows for hours of washing time to be converted to settling time, in turn
hastening the entire wash process.
Anyway, when all is said and done and no matter what wash method you choose,
you'll best serve your own interests if you make sure that your reaction is
complete before attempting any type of wash. All bubble- and mist-washing
tend to do is offer brewers the opportunity to wash an incompletely reacted
batch with one eye closed and sometimes the other eye squinted.
Todd Swearingen
- Original Message -
From: "ardis streeter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 7:29 PM
Subject: [biofuel] washing biodiesel i
Re: [biofuel] washing biodiesel in large processor
of frogs! Hey Todd, why don't you horrify everyone by giving us that "Frog in a Blender" url? LOL! Urk... That's all from Mark's "Bubblewashing 101" article, by the way: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash2.html Best wishes Keith >Anyway, when all is said and done and no matter what wash method you choose, >you'll best serve your own interests if you make sure that your reaction is >complete before attempting any type of wash. All bubble- and mist-washing >tend to do is offer brewers the opportunity to wash an incompletely reacted >batch with one eye closed and sometimes the other eye squinted. > >Todd Swearingen > >- Original Message - >From: "ardis streeter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: >Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 7:29 PM >Subject: [biofuel] washing biodiesel in large processor > > > > Hi,all ' I was wondering if anyone could tell me > > which way might be best for washing large batches of > > biodiesel??My processor is capable of processing up to > > 200 gallons at a time.I am still building the > > processor so I was looking for some imfo.from > > experenced biodiesel producers.So far I have the > > stainless pick up tank done,the methanol,lye mix tank > > done,the processing tank with heat exchangers and > > mixer done.Currently I am building the wash tank and > > was wondering if bubble washing or top mist washing > > would be better for a tank that is 46 inches in dia. > > and aprox. 90 inches high.The tank will hold aprox. > > 480 gallons.Also was wondering if the tank needs an > > agitoror or if the wash tank should be set up with a > > pump to stir the fuel,water wash?? Also would like to > > know if the wash water should be pre-heated because > > well water is around 55 degrees,would this cause a > > problem with proper washing.Thanks for any help|| Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] washing biodiesel in large processor
Ardis,
You will find, after enough experimentation and out of pocket costs, that
mechanical agitation in a wash tank is the least expensive, consumes the
least energy, requires the least amount of time and leaves you with a
finished product as good as or better than mist- or bubble-washing.
Plain, pure and simple, mist- and bubble-washing have become
"institutionalized" amongst home-brewers primarily due to the frequency of
incomplete reactions that lend to washing problems. In short, they are both
methods of treating incomplete reactions with little kid's gloves in the
hopes that any resulting emulsion won't be "too bad" or "too noticeable."
The fact of the matter is that no wash method should be used on any batch
unless it is known for certain that the reaction has completed.
Unfortunately, many people fail to guarantee this for themselves, opting to
just "go ahead and wash it gently."
The method of guarantee is extremely simple. Put one ounce of what is
believed to be finished fuel in a baby food jar (or similar) with an equal
amount of water. Seal the jar and shake violently for 15 seconds. Completed
fuel should begin to separate instantly and there should be two distinct
layers in less than ~30 seconds. If it takes longer than this or if an
emulsion layer forms any thicker than the normal "paper thin" interface
layer between oil and water, you've got a batch that has not completed.
The degree of incompletion can vary. If the fuel/water separate slowly but
are by-and-large complete in a matter of 1-2 minutes and there is no
emulsion layer other than the interface, there's no great need to retreat
the reaction if the fuel is intended for personal use. If you have an
emulsion beyond the thin interface layer the batch needs to be retreated. No
amount of light mist- or bubble-washing can change this - unless, of course,
you don't care what grade of fuel you run through your engine.
The wash test and mechanical washing (motor, prop and shaft) work well no
matter what method you use - acid/base or straight base, single or double
stage.
Some concern has been expressed in the past over the use of air to dry fuel,
the concern being fuel oxidation. It's beyond me why those who express such
concern (and rightfully so) don't say word one about bubble washing doing
the exact same thing.
Others express concern with pump- or prop-washed fuel not clearing as
quickly as mist- or bubble-washed. There's sound reason for this, all things
being equal. Pumps and propellers have the ability of better mixing the fuel
and water ("atomizing it"), bringing both in more frequent contact with each
other. This means greater surface to surface contact between water molecules
and all suspended/dissolved impurities. Fifteen minutes with a 1/2 hp motor
and 4" - 6" prop in a 200 gallon wash tank or bigger will achieve the same
thing or more as an all-day-affair with a mist- or bubble-washer. This
allows for hours of washing time to be converted to settling time, in turn
hastening the entire wash process.
Anyway, when all is said and done and no matter what wash method you choose,
you'll best serve your own interests if you make sure that your reaction is
complete before attempting any type of wash. All bubble- and mist-washing
tend to do is offer brewers the opportunity to wash an incompletely reacted
batch with one eye closed and sometimes the other eye squinted.
Todd Swearingen
- Original Message -
From: "ardis streeter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 7:29 PM
Subject: [biofuel] washing biodiesel in large processor
> Hi,all ' I was wondering if anyone could tell me
> which way might be best for washing large batches of
> biodiesel??My processor is capable of processing up to
> 200 gallons at a time.I am still building the
> processor so I was looking for some imfo.from
> experenced biodiesel producers.So far I have the
> stainless pick up tank done,the methanol,lye mix tank
> done,the processing tank with heat exchangers and
> mixer done.Currently I am building the wash tank and
> was wondering if bubble washing or top mist washing
> would be better for a tank that is 46 inches in dia.
> and aprox. 90 inches high.The tank will hold aprox.
> 480 gallons.Also was wondering if the tank needs an
> agitoror or if the wash tank should be set up with a
> pump to stir the fuel,water wash?? Also would like to
> know if the wash water should be pre-heated because
> well water is around 55 degrees,would this cause a
> problem with proper washing.Thanks for any help||
>
>
>
>
> __
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
>
>
> Biofuel
[biofuel] washing biodiesel in large processor
Hi,all ' I was wondering if anyone could tell me which way might be best for washing large batches of biodiesel??My processor is capable of processing up to 200 gallons at a time.I am still building the processor so I was looking for some imfo.from experenced biodiesel producers.So far I have the stainless pick up tank done,the methanol,lye mix tank done,the processing tank with heat exchangers and mixer done.Currently I am building the wash tank and was wondering if bubble washing or top mist washing would be better for a tank that is 46 inches in dia. and aprox. 90 inches high.The tank will hold aprox. 480 gallons.Also was wondering if the tank needs an agitoror or if the wash tank should be set up with a pump to stir the fuel,water wash?? Also would like to know if the wash water should be pre-heated because well water is around 55 degrees,would this cause a problem with proper washing.Thanks for any help|| __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Washing with circulating pump
Just doing my long range planning and wanted to understand washing a bit better. If the conversion process is complete (acid/base etc.) would it be possible to safely perform the washing more rapidly than mist or bubble methods by using a circulating pump with more agitation? Thanks! Steve __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches
This email response seems to have gotton lost in the wash ;-) so I figured I send it again. Steve Todd, Thanks for the thoughts. I had totally ignored the left over moisture from the washing on the next reaction batch. A follow up thought: If the reaction is complete (say with an acid/base process) would not pump mixing be just or more effective than mist or bubble washing? Even though the motor would take more power, wouldn't the wash occur more rapidly leaving the energy balance a wash? Steve --- Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Steve, > > There are a number of good reasons to not use a reactor as a wash > vessel. > > 1) Water contamination during reaction stages. > 2) Expended time evacuating a reactor of all water prior to reaction > stages. > 3) Undersized vessel for water washes. (110 gallon reactor yields ~91 > gallons fuel, leaving only enough room for 19 gallons of water, erego > the > introduction of flush washing, aka "mist washing") > 4) Mist washing in such a set-up generally doesn't include > separation/settling of micro-droplets of fuel from the wash water, > leaving > some fuel to be discarded with the wash. > > Could probably come up with another half-dozen associated/downstream > problems. But those are the predominant ones. > > Todd Swearingen > > - Original Message - > From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:33 PM > Subject: Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches > > > > From steven mesibov: > > > > > > > >FROM: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >DATE: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 06:19:32 -0700 (PDT) > > >SUBJECT: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches > > > > > >Keith, Todd, et. al., > > > > > >I have read so much on the need for washing and the different methods > and > > >on the fact that violent washing is okay if you process correctly > that it > > >just occurred to me: > > > > > >Why not use the reaction vessel for washing as well as the initial > mixing? > > > Would pump washing (especially if you used something like Lyle's at > > >Piedmont Static In-Line Mixer by KoFlo) be acceptable? It would > certainly > > >save on having another large container for small operations. > > > > > >Steve > > > > > >--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Hello Brian > > > > > > > > >Hello. I am just starting in the production of my own > > > > >biodiesel. I have made several 1 liter test batches, > > > > > > > > Good for you! > > > > > > > > >but I'm not sure how to wash them. I can't find > > > > >anything online particular to small batches, but I > > > > >have found sources that say bubblewashing will be too > > > > >violent and cause emulsification. > > > > > > > > People who say bubblewashing's too violent and set off on a quest > for > > > > ever-gentler washing methods (eg "mist" washing) have taken a > wrong > > > > turn before they start. Gentle washing techniques only mask the > real > > > > problem, which is that the stuff isn't processed properly in the > > > > first place, they need to improve their processing. > > > > > > > > Emulsification doesn't normally happen with well-processed fuel. > It's > > > > caused by either (or probably both) too much soap and poor > > > > conversion, leaving diglycerides and monoglycerides, which are > > > > emulsifiers. If your fuel's properly made you won't be able to > > > > emulsify it no matter how violently you agitate it. That is what > you > > > > should be aiming for. > > > > > > > > See "Emulsification" and "Emulsion Explained" here: > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash2.html#emuls > > > > > > > > So, some suggestions. First, take about 150ml of your finished, > > > > unwashed fuel and do this with it: > > > > Quality testing > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality > > > > > > > > Let us know what happens. > > > > > > > > Second, you can bubblewash it, in a 2-litre PET bottle. From Todd: > > > > > > > > >You can use the pop-up cap found on water bottles at your grocer > as > the > > > > >"
Re: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches
Todd, Thanks for the thoughts. I had totally ignored the left over moisture from the washing on the next reaction batch. A follow up thought: If the reaction is complete (say with an acid/base process) would not pump mixing be just or more effective than mist or bubble washing? Even though the motor would take more power, wouldn't the wash occur more rapidly leaving the energy balance a wash? Steve --- Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Steve, > > There are a number of good reasons to not use a reactor as a wash > vessel. > > 1) Water contamination during reaction stages. > 2) Expended time evacuating a reactor of all water prior to reaction > stages. > 3) Undersized vessel for water washes. (110 gallon reactor yields ~91 > gallons fuel, leaving only enough room for 19 gallons of water, erego > the > introduction of flush washing, aka "mist washing") > 4) Mist washing in such a set-up generally doesn't include > separation/settling of micro-droplets of fuel from the wash water, > leaving > some fuel to be discarded with the wash. > > Could probably come up with another half-dozen associated/downstream > problems. But those are the predominant ones. > > Todd Swearingen > > - Original Message - > From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:33 PM > Subject: Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches > > > > From steven mesibov: > > > > > > > >FROM: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >DATE: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 06:19:32 -0700 (PDT) > > >SUBJECT: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches > > > > > >Keith, Todd, et. al., > > > > > >I have read so much on the need for washing and the different methods > and > > >on the fact that violent washing is okay if you process correctly > that it > > >just occurred to me: > > > > > >Why not use the reaction vessel for washing as well as the initial > mixing? > > > Would pump washing (especially if you used something like Lyle's at > > >Piedmont Static In-Line Mixer by KoFlo) be acceptable? It would > certainly > > >save on having another large container for small operations. > > > > > >Steve > > > > > >--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Hello Brian > > > > > > > > >Hello. I am just starting in the production of my own > > > > >biodiesel. I have made several 1 liter test batches, > > > > > > > > Good for you! > > > > > > > > >but I'm not sure how to wash them. I can't find > > > > >anything online particular to small batches, but I > > > > >have found sources that say bubblewashing will be too > > > > >violent and cause emulsification. > > > > > > > > People who say bubblewashing's too violent and set off on a quest > for > > > > ever-gentler washing methods (eg "mist" washing) have taken a > wrong > > > > turn before they start. Gentle washing techniques only mask the > real > > > > problem, which is that the stuff isn't processed properly in the > > > > first place, they need to improve their processing. > > > > > > > > Emulsification doesn't normally happen with well-processed fuel. > It's > > > > caused by either (or probably both) too much soap and poor > > > > conversion, leaving diglycerides and monoglycerides, which are > > > > emulsifiers. If your fuel's properly made you won't be able to > > > > emulsify it no matter how violently you agitate it. That is what > you > > > > should be aiming for. > > > > > > > > See "Emulsification" and "Emulsion Explained" here: > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash2.html#emuls > > > > > > > > So, some suggestions. First, take about 150ml of your finished, > > > > unwashed fuel and do this with it: > > > > Quality testing > > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality > > > > > > > > Let us know what happens. > > > > > > > > Second, you can bubblewash it, in a 2-litre PET bottle. From Todd: > > > > > > > > >You can use the pop-up cap found on water bottles at your grocer > as > the > > > > >"valve" for drainage. > > > > > > > > > >This turns any PET bottle i
Re: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches
Steve, There are a number of good reasons to not use a reactor as a wash vessel. 1) Water contamination during reaction stages. 2) Expended time evacuating a reactor of all water prior to reaction stages. 3) Undersized vessel for water washes. (110 gallon reactor yields ~91 gallons fuel, leaving only enough room for 19 gallons of water, erego the introduction of flush washing, aka "mist washing") 4) Mist washing in such a set-up generally doesn't include separation/settling of micro-droplets of fuel from the wash water, leaving some fuel to be discarded with the wash. Could probably come up with another half-dozen associated/downstream problems. But those are the predominant ones. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:33 PM Subject: Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches > From steven mesibov: > > > > >FROM: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >DATE: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 06:19:32 -0700 (PDT) > >SUBJECT: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches > > > >Keith, Todd, et. al., > > > >I have read so much on the need for washing and the different methods and > >on the fact that violent washing is okay if you process correctly that it > >just occurred to me: > > > >Why not use the reaction vessel for washing as well as the initial mixing? > > Would pump washing (especially if you used something like Lyle's at > >Piedmont Static In-Line Mixer by KoFlo) be acceptable? It would certainly > >save on having another large container for small operations. > > > >Steve > > > >--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hello Brian > > > > > > >Hello. I am just starting in the production of my own > > > >biodiesel. I have made several 1 liter test batches, > > > > > > Good for you! > > > > > > >but I'm not sure how to wash them. I can't find > > > >anything online particular to small batches, but I > > > >have found sources that say bubblewashing will be too > > > >violent and cause emulsification. > > > > > > People who say bubblewashing's too violent and set off on a quest for > > > ever-gentler washing methods (eg "mist" washing) have taken a wrong > > > turn before they start. Gentle washing techniques only mask the real > > > problem, which is that the stuff isn't processed properly in the > > > first place, they need to improve their processing. > > > > > > Emulsification doesn't normally happen with well-processed fuel. It's > > > caused by either (or probably both) too much soap and poor > > > conversion, leaving diglycerides and monoglycerides, which are > > > emulsifiers. If your fuel's properly made you won't be able to > > > emulsify it no matter how violently you agitate it. That is what you > > > should be aiming for. > > > > > > See "Emulsification" and "Emulsion Explained" here: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash2.html#emuls > > > > > > So, some suggestions. First, take about 150ml of your finished, > > > unwashed fuel and do this with it: > > > Quality testing > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality > > > > > > Let us know what happens. > > > > > > Second, you can bubblewash it, in a 2-litre PET bottle. From Todd: > > > > > > >You can use the pop-up cap found on water bottles at your grocer as the > > > >"valve" for drainage. > > > > > > > >This turns any PET bottle into a separative funnel. > > > > > > > >It takes a little practice to get the "valve" to trickle properly, but > > > it > > > >does work superbly. > > > > > > More details on how that works here: > > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/13265/ > > > > > > You know those pop-up caps? Maybe made for cyclists or something. > > > We've used something a little different (I think), a screw-on pop-up > > > cap with a straw through the middle that goes right down to the > > > bottom of the bottle, with an air-inlet gap around the straw, and the > > > cap closing both the straw and the air-inlet. Do your bubblewash, > > > remove the air-stone and air-pipe from the pump, screw on the pop-up > > > cap, turn the bottle upside down and allow to settle. To drain off > > > the settled water, hold the bottle (s
Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches
From steven mesibov: > >FROM: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >DATE: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 06:19:32 -0700 (PDT) >SUBJECT: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches > >Keith, Todd, et. al., > >I have read so much on the need for washing and the different methods and >on the fact that violent washing is okay if you process correctly that it >just occurred to me: > >Why not use the reaction vessel for washing as well as the initial mixing? > Would pump washing (especially if you used something like Lyle's at >Piedmont Static In-Line Mixer by KoFlo) be acceptable? It would certainly >save on having another large container for small operations. > >Steve > >--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hello Brian > > > > >Hello. I am just starting in the production of my own > > >biodiesel. I have made several 1 liter test batches, > > > > Good for you! > > > > >but I'm not sure how to wash them. I can't find > > >anything online particular to small batches, but I > > >have found sources that say bubblewashing will be too > > >violent and cause emulsification. > > > > People who say bubblewashing's too violent and set off on a quest for > > ever-gentler washing methods (eg "mist" washing) have taken a wrong > > turn before they start. Gentle washing techniques only mask the real > > problem, which is that the stuff isn't processed properly in the > > first place, they need to improve their processing. > > > > Emulsification doesn't normally happen with well-processed fuel. It's > > caused by either (or probably both) too much soap and poor > > conversion, leaving diglycerides and monoglycerides, which are > > emulsifiers. If your fuel's properly made you won't be able to > > emulsify it no matter how violently you agitate it. That is what you > > should be aiming for. > > > > See "Emulsification" and "Emulsion Explained" here: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash2.html#emuls > > > > So, some suggestions. First, take about 150ml of your finished, > > unwashed fuel and do this with it: > > Quality testing > > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality > > > > Let us know what happens. > > > > Second, you can bubblewash it, in a 2-litre PET bottle. From Todd: > > > > >You can use the pop-up cap found on water bottles at your grocer as the > > >"valve" for drainage. > > > > > >This turns any PET bottle into a separative funnel. > > > > > >It takes a little practice to get the "valve" to trickle properly, but > > it > > >does work superbly. > > > > More details on how that works here: > > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/13265/ > > > > You know those pop-up caps? Maybe made for cyclists or something. > > We've used something a little different (I think), a screw-on pop-up > > cap with a straw through the middle that goes right down to the > > bottom of the bottle, with an air-inlet gap around the straw, and the > > cap closing both the straw and the air-inlet. Do your bubblewash, > > remove the air-stone and air-pipe from the pump, screw on the pop-up > > cap, turn the bottle upside down and allow to settle. To drain off > > the settled water, hold the bottle (still upside down) over the sink > > or something, lift the cap; the water comes out the air-inlet gap, > > air goes up the straw to the top (bottom) of the bottle, and draining > > is smooth without any glug-glugging that'll splash and prevent a > > clean separation. If you can't find something like this you could > > easily rig it with some thin air-pipe and epoxy putty. If you can't > > find an air-stone small enough to fit the neck of the PET bottle, cut > > the neck off; when the wash is finished decant it all into another > > PET bottle and use the pop-up cap as above. > > > > HTH > > > > Best wishes > > > > Keith > > > > > > > > >Will someone share > > >a success story? > > > > > >Thank you, > > > > > >Brian Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches
Hello Brian >Hello. I am just starting in the production of my own >biodiesel. I have made several 1 liter test batches, Good for you! >but I'm not sure how to wash them. I can't find >anything online particular to small batches, but I >have found sources that say bubblewashing will be too >violent and cause emulsification. People who say bubblewashing's too violent and set off on a quest for ever-gentler washing methods (eg "mist" washing) have taken a wrong turn before they start. Gentle washing techniques only mask the real problem, which is that the stuff isn't processed properly in the first place, they need to improve their processing. Emulsification doesn't normally happen with well-processed fuel. It's caused by either (or probably both) too much soap and poor conversion, leaving diglycerides and monoglycerides, which are emulsifiers. If your fuel's properly made you won't be able to emulsify it no matter how violently you agitate it. That is what you should be aiming for. See "Emulsification" and "Emulsion Explained" here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash2.html#emuls So, some suggestions. First, take about 150ml of your finished, unwashed fuel and do this with it: Quality testing http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality Let us know what happens. Second, you can bubblewash it, in a 2-litre PET bottle. From Todd: >You can use the pop-up cap found on water bottles at your grocer as the >"valve" for drainage. > >This turns any PET bottle into a separative funnel. > >It takes a little practice to get the "valve" to trickle properly, but it >does work superbly. More details on how that works here: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/13265/ You know those pop-up caps? Maybe made for cyclists or something. We've used something a little different (I think), a screw-on pop-up cap with a straw through the middle that goes right down to the bottom of the bottle, with an air-inlet gap around the straw, and the cap closing both the straw and the air-inlet. Do your bubblewash, remove the air-stone and air-pipe from the pump, screw on the pop-up cap, turn the bottle upside down and allow to settle. To drain off the settled water, hold the bottle (still upside down) over the sink or something, lift the cap; the water comes out the air-inlet gap, air goes up the straw to the top (bottom) of the bottle, and draining is smooth without any glug-glugging that'll splash and prevent a clean separation. If you can't find something like this you could easily rig it with some thin air-pipe and epoxy putty. If you can't find an air-stone small enough to fit the neck of the PET bottle, cut the neck off; when the wash is finished decant it all into another PET bottle and use the pop-up cap as above. HTH Best wishes Keith >Will someone share >a success story? > >Thank you, > >Brian Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches
I made a 1 liter batch last week and I did it this way: i mix 200ml.of methanol with a 3 o 4 grams of lye..in my case was a granular lye..is so litlle that i measured with a teaspoon...about 3/4 of the teaspoon.i put it in the blender..and old kitchen blender and shake it.then after is disolved add 1 liter of oil(new in my case) turn the blender on and wow...like milkshake5 minutes and put it in a container ,let it there overnite and next morning get the biodiesel (the top) and i just put it in a jar and add water to it and let it there for 8 hours then get the biodiesel out it should be like lemon juice at this point at the top and a soupy water in the botton,repeat it again and less foamy and cleaner biodiesel.then a got a kitchen pot..and old one and put it in a stove outside..let it boil and a cleaner biodiesel i goti used it allready...i poured it in my 96 gasoline izuzu Rodeo as additive and tomorrow I'll be making more. - Original Message - From: Brian C. To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 10:15 PM Subject: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches Hello. I am just starting in the production of my own biodiesel. I have made several 1 liter test batches, but I'm not sure how to wash them. I can't find anything online particular to small batches, but I have found sources that say bubblewashing will be too violent and cause emulsification. Will someone share a success story? Thank you, Brian __ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches
Hello. I am just starting in the production of my own biodiesel. I have made several 1 liter test batches, but I'm not sure how to wash them. I can't find anything online particular to small batches, but I have found sources that say bubblewashing will be too violent and cause emulsification. Will someone share a success story? Thank you, Brian __ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
