Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
Further to this: As far as the other part is concerned. There is no dilemma. You are there to record history. not be a part of it or change it. I've gotten in trouble for this a few times myself. snip But that's the pretence - journalist-as-pipe. How it so often works out is that such journalists may talk about their sources, but to those sources these journalists are resources, used for purposes and ends that can be very contrary to the role of the fourth estate. The classic current case is that of Judith Miller of the New York Times and Ahmad Chalabi, and the matter of WMD. ... she [Judith Miller] gave a response that was laughable at best: she just reports what she's told, so don't blame her or the press for things happening you don't like. The media is neutral - they simply report, and it is up to you to make decisions based on that reporting. If what the press is told happens to be wrong, it is not their fault. -- From: Chasing Judith Miller Off the Stage Derek Seidman February 20 / 22, 2004 http://www.counterpunch.org/seidman02202004.html Ahmad Chalabi, head of the Iraqi National Congress group of defectors and exiles, was accused in Jordan of bank fraud, embezzlement and currency manipulation involving millions and barely escaped before Jordanian authorities could arrest him; in 1992, he was convicted and sentenced in absentia to 22 years' hard labor. Jordan has demanded his extradition but the US refuses to turn him over. Chalabi has provided most of the front page exclusives on WMD to our paper. - New York Times reporter Judith Miller -- From: Now They Tell Us By Michael Massing The New York Review of Books: February 26, 2004 http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16922 ... Times reporters and editors bear a heavy responsibility, as far back as September 2002, for having raised the nuclear specter that could materialize in the form of a mushroom cloud. National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice and Vice President Dick Cheney took some of their talk-show lines on the nuclear danger from the Times article of Sept. 8, 2002 by Judith Miller and Michael Gordon, US Says Hussein Intensifies Quest for A-Bomb Parts. Moreover, over the years, the Times had frequently reported that the threat from Iraq's biological and chemical weapons programs was real and ominous. Defectors and exile groups, such as the Iraqi National Congress led by Ahmad Chalabi, were prime sources for the Times. ... Incredibly, nevertheless, Miller places the onus on U.S. intelligence for the gross discrepancies between what she reported on Iraqi WMD before the war, and the largely blank sheet of the Iraqi Survey Group submitted by David Kay: The fact that the United States so far hasn't found WMD in Iraq is deeply disturbing, she told Michael Massing in his article Now They Tell Us, in the New York Review of Books (Feb. 26). It raises real questions about how good our intelligence was. To beat up on the messenger is to miss the point. This from a messenger who, in 2002-2003, persisted in publishing shaky and deceptive information that abetted the designs of her high-level administration and INC sources. -- From: 'NY Times' Fails to Acknowledge Its Role in WMD Hype - The Paper of Record Blames Intelligence and Administration, but any Indictment of the National Press is Missing by William E. Jackson Jr. Editor and Publisher February 20, 2004 http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0220-04.htm On CNN's Late Edition, Condoleezza Rice said ... We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud - a phrase lifted directly from the Times. -- From: Now They Tell Us The INC's intelligence isn't reliable at all, according to Vincent Cannistraro, a former CIA chief of counterterrorism. Much of it is propaganda. Much of it is telling the Defense Department what they want to hear, using alleged informants and defectors who say what Chalabi wants them to say, [creating] cooked information that goes right into presidential and vice presidential speeches. -- From: The Lie Factory By Robert Dreyfuss and Jason Vest January/February 2004 Issue http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2004/01/12_405.html Nothing new there - the C.I.A. had mistrusted Chalabi for at least eight years. In 1996 the agency cut off the millions of dollars a year it was secretly funnelling to the I.N.C. essentially because it had doubts about Chalabi's integrity. An Iraqi leader accused of feeding faulty pre-war intelligence to Washington said yesterday his information about Saddam Hussein's weapons, even if discredited, had achieved the aim of persuading America to topple the dictator. ... Ahmad Chalabi, ... by far the most effective anti-Saddam lobbyist in Washington, shrugged off charges that he had deliberately misled US intelligence. We are heroes in error, he told the Telegraph in Baghdad. As far as we're concerned we've been entirely successful. That tyrant Saddam is gone and the Americans are in Baghdad. What
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 02:01:32 +0900, you wrote: Further to this: As far as the other part is concerned. There is no dilemma. You are there to record history. not be a part of it or change it. I've gotten in trouble for this a few times myself. snip But that's the pretence - journalist-as-pipe. How it so often works out is that such journalists may talk about their sources, but to those sources these journalists are resources, used for purposes and ends that can be very contrary to the role of the fourth estate. The classic current case is that of Judith Miller of the New York Times and Ahmad Chalabi, and the matter of WMD. What about in alternative fuels and vehicles? While to be sure we see many examples of the problem you mention (journalists just mouthing what some mediocrity in a PR department tells them, which they half-know to be a 3/4 lie), I also see a need or desire for companies or people to get their message out, not just in a PR announcement, but a desire to be covered. In that case, I don't think a journalist is out of line to allow or encourage himself to be used. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 02:01:32 +0900, you wrote: Further to this: One thing that I'm not sure if you mentioned, which I half-expected you to mention: The years (decades?) of Time and Newsweek having the same cover-stories. I do think this is an abdication of the editorial work and task of prioritizing stories for the readers. I don't know if this practice is in place any longer. Probably. It's been years since I picked up either publication outside of a waiting room. It's a cowardly practice for my money, though to be sure the stakes for them seemed very high. When US News and World Report came on the scene more strongly, their ads seemed to focus on some of the problems at the other Big 2. They were particularly critical of those magazines' focus on Fluff, though that's not the same issue. I always thought the same-cover-topic pratice was just a very noticeable thing. In a way, I can make the case for it: The 2 magazines agree that they're going to compete, tooth and nail, but that in some areas they're going to cooperate because they don't want to endanger their business position too much. It's sort of like a type of cowardice, if it's that, that I perceive at the auto companies, I guess. A century ago there was more or less a free for all battle for innovation and creation and supremacy and business, in the then-new auto business in the US and elsewhere. I haven't read any books on the matter, but in glancing at older cars (many very eye-catching!) there are so many names that have long since disappeared. Now, I think the Big Giants don't want that free-for-all brutal competition to reappear. They have a lot more to lose, and they agree (in my theory) to compete, but not to the point of overly-endangering the pecking order. So, there's not as much change or alteration from year to year and decade to decade in who are the dominant vehicle companies, it seems. Perhaps also there's not as much open-ness to viewing innovation, in cars or fuels, as a way to move up the ladder? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 02:01:32 +0900, you wrote: Further to this: As far as the other part is concerned. There is no dilemma. You are there to record history. not be a part of it or change it. I've gotten in trouble for this a few times myself. snip But that's the pretence - journalist-as-pipe. How it so often works out is that such journalists may talk about their sources, but to those sources these journalists are resources, used for purposes and ends that can be very contrary to the role of the fourth estate. The classic current case is that of Judith Miller of the New York Times and Ahmad Chalabi, and the matter of WMD. What about in alternative fuels and vehicles? That's why I've taken this discussion further, I related it to biofuels issues in an earlier message. While to be sure we see many examples of the problem you mention (journalists just mouthing what some mediocrity in a PR department tells them, which they half-know to be a 3/4 lie), Estimated at 50% of the news stories in the mainstream press, but it's usually a bit more subtle than that, very often the PR office and the journalist do not encounter each other, there are other ways. I also see a need or desire for companies or people to get their message out, not just in a PR announcement, but a desire to be covered. In that case, I don't think a journalist is out of line to allow or encourage himself to be used. Different issue. Journalists can get their news from anywhere they like, no problem with interviewing a businessman, not even if he makes the approach. They may indeed be unable to write the story without pushing the product/company, but here you've abandoned ethics in favour of rules/morals - some papers have/used to have rules against having brand-names in news stories, for instance, but that doesn't make sense either. The question to which there's no across-the-board answer (as with any ethical question), is Why am I writing this? The reasons have to fit with the role of the fourth estate, and of they do, that's just fine, and maybe pushing the product will fit with that too. That is not being used, not if it meets the criteria. And that is not what Judith Miller was doing. Spin and media manipulation are integral to the current energy mess and the fact that biofuels don't get a fair deal. At the Biodiesel list last week someone was declaiming with great confidence that ethanol consumes more energy than it produces, and citing, of course, the much-debunked David Pimentel. He's lying and he knows it, but he goes right on doing it, and it's effective. Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
Hi MM That's an old myth, Fred, and much as the entire media establishment strives to maintain it, it's a myth nonetheless. You must be objective, hm? How're you going to manage that? And Heisenberg doesn't apply to journalists, we're not part of what we observe, we stand aloof and play no role in it other than merely to record, a mere conduit, a pipe - what a joke! Some followup thoughts on this very interesting post of yours. I don't have a sense if the previous poster really warranted the whole thing being directed at what he was saying, but in this case no matter. Well, just briefly, what he said was this: As far as the other part is concerned. There is no dilemma. You are there to record history. not be a part of it or change it. I've gotten in trouble for this a few times myself. So it seems like he's a member of the profession, yet he's still promoting this specious cop-out view - gotten in trouble? You have to make your decisions and stand your ground, fight for it if you have to, and if they show you the door, you walk - not just avoid getting into trouble. That exactly is the trouble - the whole thing is polluted by blame-avoidance. My thoughts are to what you were saying: In addition to what you've said, there is another way to see this: turn it around and try projecting a story where one makes absolutely no decisions, has no input, basically does nothing. I don't think it's really possible. But that's the pretence - journalist-as-pipe. How it so often works out is that such journalists may talk about their sources, but to those sources these journalists are resources, used for purposes and ends that can be very contrary to the role of the fourth estate. Story choice (what is a story, what is newsworthy, what's crap) is perhaps the most important thing of all, and perhaps the first thing before anything else, and how do you do a story without choosing what the story is? But beyond this, I think there's a trend in philosophy and intellectualism and policy-criticism toward defining a hands-off view (in politics... laissez-faire in morality perhaps this would be let-others-alone) as a do-nothing view. But this is *wrong*. For want of better words, I think someone should be pro-active in journalism and politics. Of course. But, of course, this is super-dangerous. Yup. What if they are proactive in politics in a way that enslaves me, for example? This is the question in all the professions, no? It's the same issue we were discussing recently over ethics and the commercial production of biodiesel. What it boils down to is that most people can't or won't do ethics because it means taking responsibility in circumstances where you can't be certain of the outcome. Hence morals, a set of rules you can follow where if it comes out wrong at least you can say But I did the right thing, it's not my fault. In fact I think most people could do ethics, but it's not encouraged, or rather it's positively discouraged. So, what I mean is sort of that I don't define what I want from a Politician, or somebody else that I employ, that they should sit and do absolutely zero to avoid doing anything wrong, and only to do what they're told. So, we have this trend toward saying.. ok, they haven't been an adulterer, they haven't embezzled, therefor they're 'good'. Nope. I'd rather see them try to figure out what their job is, and to come up with some ideas, to discuss them, to be an adult and admit when some of them don't turn out good, and then to take the good ones and try to implement them. In journalism, this is sort of why I voiced that I don't think USA Today's recent coverage of some energy policy issues sucks because I think there is some ethic at that publication (perhaps I'm wrong) of trying to figure out what a story is before they're told of trying to ask some questions and seeing what comes of it. Nothing interesting? Ok, throw it away. Something interesting? Ok, bring it out. Hard to define interesting. Ok, so, that will take some work. This, I think, is how to get a story. Waiting to be told by the E-channel that some alleged celebrity has allegedly done some supposedly scandalous thing, and then rushing over to cover it with 1000 other people is not my idea of the whole story in journalism, though undboutedly being responsive to demand, if there is some demand for that story, is part of it. Again, demand is not some given that exists in a vacuum, it's created and manipulated. To go back to this: Story choice (what is a story, what is newsworthy, what's crap) is perhaps the most important thing of all, and perhaps the first thing before anything else, and how do you do a story without choosing what the story is? So who chooses? Journalists do choose, yes, or it's decided at the daily news conference and the journalists are told what to do. But who really sets the agenda of what's news and what's not? Blame-avoidance at every level is a
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
That's an old myth, Fred, and much as the entire media establishment strives to maintain it, it's a myth nonetheless. You must be objective, hm? How're you going to manage that? And Heisenberg doesn't apply to journalists, we're not part of what we observe, we stand aloof and play no role in it other than merely to record, a mere conduit, a pipe - what a joke! Some followup thoughts on this very interesting post of yours. I don't have a sense if the previous poster really warranted the whole thing being directed at what he was saying, but in this case no matter. My thoughts are to what you were saying: In addition to what you've said, there is another way to see this: turn it around and try projecting a story where one makes absolutely no decisions, has no input, basically does nothing. I don't think it's really possible. Story choice (what is a story, what is newsworthy, what's crap) is perhaps the most important thing of all, and perhaps the first thing before anything else, and how do you do a story without choosing what the story is? But beyond this, I think there's a trend in philosophy and intellectualism and policy-criticism toward defining a hands-off view (in politics... laissez-faire in morality perhaps this would be let-others-alone) as a do-nothing view. But this is *wrong*. For want of better words, I think someone should be pro-active in journalism and politics. But, of course, this is super-dangerous. What if they are proactive in politics in a way that enslaves me, for example? So, what I mean is sort of that I don't define what I want from a Politician, or somebody else that I employ, that they should sit and do absolutely zero to avoid doing anything wrong, and only to do what they're told. So, we have this trend toward saying.. ok, they haven't been an adulterer, they haven't embezzled, therefor they're 'good'. Nope. I'd rather see them try to figure out what their job is, and to come up with some ideas, to discuss them, to be an adult and admit when some of them don't turn out good, and then to take the good ones and try to implement them. In journalism, this is sort of why I voiced that I don't think USA Today's recent coverage of some energy policy issues sucks because I think there is some ethic at that publication (perhaps I'm wrong) of trying to figure out what a story is before they're told of trying to ask some questions and seeing what comes of it. Nothing interesting? Ok, throw it away. Something interesting? Ok, bring it out. Hard to define interesting. Ok, so, that will take some work. This, I think, is how to get a story. Waiting to be told by the E-channel that some alleged celebrity has allegedly done some supposedly scandalous thing, and then rushing over to cover it with 1000 other people is not my idea of the whole story in journalism, though undboutedly being responsive to demand, if there is some demand for that story, is part of it. Journalists make subjective decisions about what to write, what to write about, what not to write about, what's relevant and what's not, all the time, they do little else, whether they do it in conformance with media precepts and holy writ or not... and indeed it changes the outcome. Many journalists like the myth because it means no can for them to carry, the buck doesn't stop with them, they think. Many others, especially since we had all this out (again) in the 60s and 70s, are aware that the true role of the Fourth Estate is not served but rather obstructed by the required objectivity, the journalist-as-pipe approach, and have both developed better ways and practised them, despite usually less than cosy relations with the likes of news editors (the reason about two-thirds of my working career has been as a freelancer). The back cover of Harold Evans's Pictures on a page has the headline: Why is the girl in the centre smiling? Below that is a photograph of a bunch of people on a beach, worried onlookers surrounding lifesavers and a medic treating a man lying unconscious on the sand, and the girl, kneeling beside him, smiling up at the camera. The caption: Her fiance lies at death's door after being rescued from the sea. She smiles because she saw a press cameraman and knew her picture was going in the papers. The way photo-journalism changes - as well as reflects - the world we see is one of the themes of this fascinating book. In Bush's case the best shot has to be as he goes under for the last time. You'd wait for the best shot? Best Regards Fred On Wednesday, Feb 18, 2004, at 20:14 US/Eastern, Appal Energy wrote: Actually, there is a third answer to this... What is it, Todd? Here's one possible third answer - I'm a lousy swimmer. And a fourth - journalist or not, I wouldn't take pictures of someone drowning, no matter who it was. Yet... as always, it depends... I have a file of most ghoulish and brutal photographs here, from all over the world, used
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
x-charset ISO-8859-1Bryan, As you point out Todd, I was the first to frame this discussion in the us-them democrat-republican thing, but it was merely an anticipatory post Yup. Pretty sad that. Thankfully life in general isn't orchestrated the same way you would manipulate a conversation. If it were to model your method there would be but birth and death with no trip in between. As for your to wit? PNGV was Gore/Clinton's baby. They saw the writing on the wall and certainly were capable of understanding that while fuel cells hold futuristic benefits, they were and are not a technology that can fill the enormous gap in the interim. It will take 30-40 years at best to convert a liquid fuels infrastructure to a market wide hydrogen economy. And that's under a transportation Marshall Plan. Putting 10 year life cycles on automobiles, on average, these people knew full well that there would be 2 and 3 generations of automobile manufacture before a general onset of fuel cell powered transport could become a reality. That's hundreds of millions of vehicle sales that could have largely been alternatives to present market offerings. But when using your pre-emptive thought process Gore would have scragged PNGV as readily as Bush? Yeah. Right. And the pope is going to convert to Episcopalianism. You really need to get those political scales of yours recalibrated. You seem to think the end results of a dual party legislative/executive cycle are going to yield duplicit results as a single party cycle. There's a big difference between a set of scales at least partly in balance and those where a heavy thumb is always depressing one side.. As for I don't discount them in the least; I simply doubt that anything I can do (within the current electoral system) will make a difference on their actions. Then I suggest you sit on your thumb and spin to your heart's content while the rest of the world picks up your slack. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Bryan Brah [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 12:43 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... As you point out Todd, I was the first to frame this discussion in the us-them democrat-republican thing, but it was merely an anticipatory post. Any time Dubya does something stupid, shortsighted, or reckless, which happens often enough, invariably the lamentation goes up that had he not stole the election from Al Gore, everything would be different. To wit: I can tell you one thing for absolute certain. Had Shrub not been appointed we'd still have PNGV and probably a few 10,000 more hybrids on the road and a myriad of other similar far reaching policies that would benefit future generations rather than lining the pockets of contemporary corporations as is the present destructive trend. How can you be so sure? With Republicans controlling both houses Wooden Al would be hard pressed to pass anything. And while they don't have enough votes to override a presidential veto, they could easily have inserted their environmental rollbacks in appropriations, national security, or trade legislation. Oh wait a minute, that's what they did anyway under GW. Uhhhthere's just one other thing. If you think that you can effect substantial change much beyond what color of socks you're going to wear in the morning, you're going to have to give some long consideration to utilizing whatever yahoos might be in office on any given day - either utilize their stupidity against themselves or utilize their sway. Nice theory, but I don't have 180 million dollars, and as the last election proved, my vote isn't worth squat. As far as utilizing those yahoos in office, they're a lot more conniving and savvy than you give them credit, how do you suggest influencing them, by writing letters and signing petitions? How about protesting, what do you think that will get you besides an entry in the Terrorist (er I mean Total) Information Awareness Database? But you won't get as much done by discounting them. I don't discount them in the least; I simply doubt that anything I can do (within the current electoral system) will make a difference on their actions. -BRAH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM
RE: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
Todd, I'm speaking from historical and empirical evidence when I say that it doesn't matter which party is in power, nor does it make a whit who you vote for. The illusion of a two party system it is just that. While each party pushes its own pet programs, history has shown time and time again, that only when those plans benefit the corporate oligarchs do they come to fruition. So you can dream all you like about how wonderful the world would be if Al Gore had not had the election stolen from him, but that doesn't change the fact that it was and perhaps that was the reason so. Here's a little pointer to help you navigate the real world, your political naivety would almost be charming were you not so self righteous. -BRAH -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 7:58 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... Bryan, As you point out Todd, I was the first to frame this discussion in the us-them democrat-republican thing, but it was merely an anticipatory post Yup. Pretty sad that. Thankfully life in general isn't orchestrated the same way you would manipulate a conversation. If it were to model your method there would be but birth and death with no trip in between. As for your to wit? PNGV was Gore/Clinton's baby. They saw the writing on the wall and certainly were capable of understanding that while fuel cells hold futuristic benefits, they were and are not a technology that can fill the enormous gap in the interim. It will take 30-40 years at best to convert a liquid fuels infrastructure to a market wide hydrogen economy. And that's under a transportation Marshall Plan. Putting 10 year life cycles on automobiles, on average, these people knew full well that there would be 2 and 3 generations of automobile manufacture before a general onset of fuel cell powered transport could become a reality. That's hundreds of millions of vehicle sales that could have largely been alternatives to present market offerings. But when using your pre-emptive thought process Gore would have scragged PNGV as readily as Bush? Yeah. Right. And the pope is going to convert to Episcopalianism. You really need to get those political scales of yours recalibrated. You seem to think the end results of a dual party legislative/executive cycle are going to yield duplicit results as a single party cycle. There's a big difference between a set of scales at least partly in balance and those where a heavy thumb is always depressing one side.. As for I don't discount them in the least; I simply doubt that anything I can do (within the current electoral system) will make a difference on their actions. Then I suggest you sit on your thumb and spin to your heart's content while the rest of the world picks up your slack. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Bryan Brah [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 12:43 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... As you point out Todd, I was the first to frame this discussion in the us-them democrat-republican thing, but it was merely an anticipatory post. Any time Dubya does something stupid, shortsighted, or reckless, which happens often enough, invariably the lamentation goes up that had he not stole the election from Al Gore, everything would be different. To wit: I can tell you one thing for absolute certain. Had Shrub not been appointed we'd still have PNGV and probably a few 10,000 more hybrids on the road and a myriad of other similar far reaching policies that would benefit future generations rather than lining the pockets of contemporary corporations as is the present destructive trend. How can you be so sure? With Republicans controlling both houses Wooden Al would be hard pressed to pass anything. And while they don't have enough votes to override a presidential veto, they could easily have inserted their environmental rollbacks in appropriations, national security, or trade legislation. Oh wait a minute, that's what they did anyway under GW. Uhhhthere's just one other thing. If you think that you can effect substantial change much beyond what color of socks you're going to wear in the morning, you're going to have to give some long consideration to utilizing whatever yahoos might be in office on any given day - either utilize their stupidity against themselves or utilize their sway. Nice theory, but I don't have 180 million dollars, and as the last election proved, my vote isn't worth squat. As far as utilizing those yahoos in office, they're a lot more conniving and savvy than you give them credit, how do you suggest influencing them, by writing letters and signing petitions? How about protesting, what do you think that will get you besides an entry in the Terrorist (er I mean Total) Information Awareness Database? But you won't get
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
x-charset ISO-8859-1Last thing in the world I need Bryan, is pointers from people such as yourself who advocate doing less than what is possible. If you want to lay down like a doormat, great. Knock yourself out. Go ahead and waste what little political capital you have and don't vote. Seal the tomb with a little bit more of that concrete called inaction. Some people burn a candle from both ends, others from only one. You would apparently prefer to do neither and stumble around in darkness. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Bryan Brah [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 10:12 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... Todd, I'm speaking from historical and empirical evidence when I say that it doesn't matter which party is in power, nor does it make a whit who you vote for. The illusion of a two party system it is just that. While each party pushes its own pet programs, history has shown time and time again, that only when those plans benefit the corporate oligarchs do they come to fruition. So you can dream all you like about how wonderful the world would be if Al Gore had not had the election stolen from him, but that doesn't change the fact that it was and perhaps that was the reason so. Here's a little pointer to help you navigate the real world, your political naivety would almost be charming were you not so self righteous. -BRAH -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 7:58 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... Bryan, As you point out Todd, I was the first to frame this discussion in the us-them democrat-republican thing, but it was merely an anticipatory post Yup. Pretty sad that. Thankfully life in general isn't orchestrated the same way you would manipulate a conversation. If it were to model your method there would be but birth and death with no trip in between. As for your to wit? PNGV was Gore/Clinton's baby. They saw the writing on the wall and certainly were capable of understanding that while fuel cells hold futuristic benefits, they were and are not a technology that can fill the enormous gap in the interim. It will take 30-40 years at best to convert a liquid fuels infrastructure to a market wide hydrogen economy. And that's under a transportation Marshall Plan. Putting 10 year life cycles on automobiles, on average, these people knew full well that there would be 2 and 3 generations of automobile manufacture before a general onset of fuel cell powered transport could become a reality. That's hundreds of millions of vehicle sales that could have largely been alternatives to present market offerings. But when using your pre-emptive thought process Gore would have scragged PNGV as readily as Bush? Yeah. Right. And the pope is going to convert to Episcopalianism. You really need to get those political scales of yours recalibrated. You seem to think the end results of a dual party legislative/executive cycle are going to yield duplicit results as a single party cycle. There's a big difference between a set of scales at least partly in balance and those where a heavy thumb is always depressing one side.. As for I don't discount them in the least; I simply doubt that anything I can do (within the current electoral system) will make a difference on their actions. Then I suggest you sit on your thumb and spin to your heart's content while the rest of the world picks up your slack. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Bryan Brah [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 12:43 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... As you point out Todd, I was the first to frame this discussion in the us-them democrat-republican thing, but it was merely an anticipatory post. Any time Dubya does something stupid, shortsighted, or reckless, which happens often enough, invariably the lamentation goes up that had he not stole the election from Al Gore, everything would be different. To wit: I can tell you one thing for absolute certain. Had Shrub not been appointed we'd still have PNGV and probably a few 10,000 more hybrids on the road and a myriad of other similar far reaching policies that would benefit future generations rather than lining the pockets of contemporary corporations as is the present destructive trend. How can you be so sure? With Republicans controlling both houses Wooden Al would be hard pressed to pass anything. And while they don't have enough votes to override a presidential veto, they could easily have inserted their environmental rollbacks in appropriations, national security, or trade legislation. Oh wait a minute, that's what they did anyway under GW. Uhhhthere's just one other thing. If you think
RE: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
As you point out Todd, I was the first to frame this discussion in the us-them democrat-republican thing, but it was merely an anticipatory post. Any time Dubya does something stupid, shortsighted, or reckless, which happens often enough, invariably the lamentation goes up that had he not stole the election from Al Gore, everything would be different. To wit: I can tell you one thing for absolute certain. Had Shrub not been appointed we'd still have PNGV and probably a few 10,000 more hybrids on the road and a myriad of other similar far reaching policies that would benefit future generations rather than lining the pockets of contemporary corporations as is the present destructive trend. How can you be so sure? With Republicans controlling both houses Wooden Al would be hard pressed to pass anything. And while they don't have enough votes to override a presidential veto, they could easily have inserted their environmental rollbacks in appropriations, national security, or trade legislation. Oh wait a minute, that's what they did anyway under GW. Uhhhthere's just one other thing. If you think that you can effect substantial change much beyond what color of socks you're going to wear in the morning, you're going to have to give some long consideration to utilizing whatever yahoos might be in office on any given day - either utilize their stupidity against themselves or utilize their sway. Nice theory, but I don't have 180 million dollars, and as the last election proved, my vote isn't worth squat. As far as utilizing those yahoos in office, they're a lot more conniving and savvy than you give them credit, how do you suggest influencing them, by writing letters and signing petitions? How about protesting, what do you think that will get you besides an entry in the Terrorist (er I mean Total) Information Awareness Database? But you won't get as much done by discounting them. I don't discount them in the least; I simply doubt that anything I can do (within the current electoral system) will make a difference on their actions. -BRAH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
x-charset ISO-8859-1I wish there were more US citizens that held your views. If there were, we (ie the rest of the world) would not be able to take the pickle out of you guys!. regards Doug (Remember, you guys, you get who you all vote for : so please vote! (Voting is compulsory in Australia) On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 11:26 am, Greg and April wrote: Perhaps, but, you know what they say, Expect the unexpected . I once blew my personal reputation out the door, back when I was a teen, and now I work at keeping it in good shape, but, despite all the good I have done since then, people still hold it against me, almost 20 years later. Add in the fact that others would hold my religion against me, saying it would make me unfit for any political office, because I would be unable to maintain separation of church and state. I despise the mud slinging that the race for political office has become, and I despise even more the media that pushes it for all it's worth, it's no longer even a veiled attempt at honesty, is has become a best of the worst - popularity contest ( indeed I personally think that it has become as bad as it is because of the extent that the media drives it ). I personally wouldn't want the job, but, for one big qualification, unless I had no other choice in supporting the Constitution. Like any President, he walks a fine line, a tightrope if you will. Not only that, every third person is trying to push him off. The other two people fall into one of 3 categories: The first category are trying to hold him up, the second category, flat out don't care one way or the other so long as they get what they think belongs to them ( which to my way of thinking is the worst possible category ), and the third type is willing to try work with him to make things better, despite differences. I always hope that when push comes to shove I can respect and support the office of President of the United States of America, even though I may despise and/or disagree with the man in it ( not mentioning any particular Presidents past, present, or future ), because he has the hardest bloody job in the world, and only a fraction of the support. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 14:53 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... Sorry Greg, That was a rhetorical question. Not one that I either sought or expected an answer to. Rising above the devasting practices of another sometimes requires insuring that the other no longer has the opportunity to practice such devastation. Hence my response of the third option - to do nothing. I have no clue as to your personal reputation or desire to follow a honest and forthright path. But I can tell you that George Bush has chosen neither. He's a desecration to his faith and to the nation he swore to serve. If that makes him a better man than anyone, then everyone has a serious problem - a problem which has been recognized for four years. Sadly, a stop wasn't put to it before the last three began. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... By rising above what the other person did, although there must be some limits. In some cases, it must be with an olive branch of peace in one hand and a weapon of war in the other. I welcome people into my house, when invited, but, at the same time, I will defend my family and others ( even if it means my own death ), from anyone intent on harm. The hardest thing to do, is to determine if an action is going to do more harm than good, some cases are clear as crystal, but, many are not. It is even worse if your a leader trying to do the best for your country, more so if your trying to help the world as well. I would never want to be the President of the U.S. More is expected of them, than any other citizen of the U.S. especially with such deep divisions as we have. For all his faults, the President is a better man that I, not just because he deals with major issues, on a daily basis, but, because he *willingly* does it and in general, probably with more of a even hand than I would want use. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 09:46 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... How do you lend aid to those who wreak so much devastation? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages
RE: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
Dubya is a corrupt palm-greasing politician, who does exactly what his handlers tell him to do. However we could do a lot worse for a leader. Imagine in this little scenario, that you let Georgie boy sink like a stone, would Dick be a better president? Would there even be a pretense of a separation of Corp and State? For all that imagine that you are faced with the same dilemma but in October 2000, and instead it is Candidate Bush who is about to drown; do you think living under Wooden Al for the last four years would have been any different? Or would we still be in the same boat. Maybe not, but we could just as easily have been in a second cold war had Mr. Internet succeeded in selling our remaining weapons technology to the Chinese to benefit his buddies at Loran and Hughes. It never ceases to amaze me how brainwashed people are. That you let yourself fall into the polarizing us-them, democrat-republican trap. It doesn't matter which party is in power, we're getting screwed either way. 2004 is turning out to be another ivy league presidential race between two Skull and Bones Alumni. If Kerry gets elected, what do you think will actually change? GW will just retire to build his library and make million dollar speaking engagements. There's an old joke that goes something like Why do politicians look different? Answer: So you can tell them apart. I don't profess to know the solution to our problems, but I can say for sure that it's not going to come from either political party or their corporate-sponsored lackeys. -BRAH -Original Message- From: Greg and April [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 11:19 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... By rising above what the other person did, although there must be some limits. In some cases, it must be with an olive branch of peace in one hand and a weapon of war in the other. I welcome people into my house, when invited, but, at the same time, I will defend my family and others ( even if it means my own death ), from anyone intent on harm. The hardest thing to do, is to determine if an action is going to do more harm than good, some cases are clear as crystal, but, many are not. It is even worse if your a leader trying to do the best for your country, more so if your trying to help the world as well. I would never want to be the President of the U.S. More is expected of them, than any other citizen of the U.S. especially with such deep divisions as we have. For all his faults, the President is a better man that I, not just because he deals with major issues, on a daily basis, but, because he *willingly* does it and in general, probably with more of a even hand than I would want use. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 09:46 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... How do you lend aid to those who wreak so much devastation? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
Perhaps, but, you know what they say, Expect the unexpected . I once blew my personal reputation out the door, back when I was a teen, and now I work at keeping it in good shape, but, despite all the good I have done since then, people still hold it against me, almost 20 years later. Add in the fact that others would hold my religion against me, saying it would make me unfit for any political office, because I would be unable to maintain separation of church and state. I despise the mud slinging that the race for political office has become, and I despise even more the media that pushes it for all it's worth, it's no longer even a veiled attempt at honesty, is has become a best of the worst - popularity contest ( indeed I personally think that it has become as bad as it is because of the extent that the media drives it ). I personally wouldn't want the job, but, for one big qualification, unless I had no other choice in supporting the Constitution. Like any President, he walks a fine line, a tightrope if you will. Not only that, every third person is trying to push him off. The other two people fall into one of 3 categories: The first category are trying to hold him up, the second category, flat out don't care one way or the other so long as they get what they think belongs to them ( which to my way of thinking is the worst possible category ), and the third type is willing to try work with him to make things better, despite differences. I always hope that when push comes to shove I can respect and support the office of President of the United States of America, even though I may despise and/or disagree with the man in it ( not mentioning any particular Presidents past, present, or future ), because he has the hardest bloody job in the world, and only a fraction of the support. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 14:53 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... Sorry Greg, That was a rhetorical question. Not one that I either sought or expected an answer to. Rising above the devasting practices of another sometimes requires insuring that the other no longer has the opportunity to practice such devastation. Hence my response of the third option - to do nothing. I have no clue as to your personal reputation or desire to follow a honest and forthright path. But I can tell you that George Bush has chosen neither. He's a desecration to his faith and to the nation he swore to serve. If that makes him a better man than anyone, then everyone has a serious problem - a problem which has been recognized for four years. Sadly, a stop wasn't put to it before the last three began. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... By rising above what the other person did, although there must be some limits. In some cases, it must be with an olive branch of peace in one hand and a weapon of war in the other. I welcome people into my house, when invited, but, at the same time, I will defend my family and others ( even if it means my own death ), from anyone intent on harm. The hardest thing to do, is to determine if an action is going to do more harm than good, some cases are clear as crystal, but, many are not. It is even worse if your a leader trying to do the best for your country, more so if your trying to help the world as well. I would never want to be the President of the U.S. More is expected of them, than any other citizen of the U.S. especially with such deep divisions as we have. For all his faults, the President is a better man that I, not just because he deals with major issues, on a daily basis, but, because he *willingly* does it and in general, probably with more of a even hand than I would want use. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 09:46 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... How do you lend aid to those who wreak so much devastation? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
x-charset ISO-8859-1Greg, There's not much to say, other than the man is the biggest scumbag to ever hold the office. A tough job? Sure. The hardest job in the world? Homey don't buy it. And he doesn't get to draw a bye just because others may care to assess it as such. Were it so, he certainly wouldn't have been fit for the job since day one - which he wasn't. Money and stupidity on the part of millions of sheep is what got him there. And now the rest of the world gets to reap the dismal harvest. I'll be damned and go to hell long before I foster excuses or justifications for the way he's loused up almost everything he's touched since being selected to office. He's a liar and a con who has nowhere to hide anymore. It wreaks in every word he utters and tries to stutter through - an audible manifestation of a man who knows a lie when he speaks it and a sham when he supports it...just that he's too damned gutless or stupid to confront it. Somebody tell me exactly how someone who is supposed to be a god fearing individual could have such a despotic lack of concern for future generations? (Don't answer that. Again, it's rhetorical, with everyone already knowing the answer.) Let him sit on a dung heap scratching his sores with a potshard for all I care, although that is far less than he deserves. Although I certainly wouldn't wish such an injustice of ill company upon Job were he still in the neighborhood. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 7:26 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... Perhaps, but, you know what they say, Expect the unexpected . I once blew my personal reputation out the door, back when I was a teen, and now I work at keeping it in good shape, but, despite all the good I have done since then, people still hold it against me, almost 20 years later. Add in the fact that others would hold my religion against me, saying it would make me unfit for any political office, because I would be unable to maintain separation of church and state. I despise the mud slinging that the race for political office has become, and I despise even more the media that pushes it for all it's worth, it's no longer even a veiled attempt at honesty, is has become a best of the worst - popularity contest ( indeed I personally think that it has become as bad as it is because of the extent that the media drives it ). I personally wouldn't want the job, but, for one big qualification, unless I had no other choice in supporting the Constitution. Like any President, he walks a fine line, a tightrope if you will. Not only that, every third person is trying to push him off. The other two people fall into one of 3 categories: The first category are trying to hold him up, the second category, flat out don't care one way or the other so long as they get what they think belongs to them ( which to my way of thinking is the worst possible category ), and the third type is willing to try work with him to make things better, despite differences. I always hope that when push comes to shove I can respect and support the office of President of the United States of America, even though I may despise and/or disagree with the man in it ( not mentioning any particular Presidents past, present, or future ), because he has the hardest bloody job in the world, and only a fraction of the support. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 14:53 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... Sorry Greg, That was a rhetorical question. Not one that I either sought or expected an answer to. Rising above the devasting practices of another sometimes requires insuring that the other no longer has the opportunity to practice such devastation. Hence my response of the third option - to do nothing. I have no clue as to your personal reputation or desire to follow a honest and forthright path. But I can tell you that George Bush has chosen neither. He's a desecration to his faith and to the nation he swore to serve. If that makes him a better man than anyone, then everyone has a serious problem - a problem which has been recognized for four years. Sadly, a stop wasn't put to it before the last three began. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... By rising above what the other person did, although there must be some limits. In some cases, it must be with an olive branch of peace in one hand and a weapon of war in the other. I welcome people into my house, when invited, but, at the same time, I will defend my family and others ( even if it means my own death ), from anyone intent on harm
Re[4]: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
x-charset ISO-8859-1Hallo Todd, Thursday, 19 February, 2004, 20:31:52, you wrote: AE Hey Gustl, AE Yah..., I too think Greg underestimates himself. AE As for the moral dilemma? I'd have some degree of difficulty wrestling with AE myself no matter what I did. AE Take pictures? Forget it. AE Lend a hand? I'd never be able to forgive myself. AE Do nothing? Well..., we all know about ghosts. Or at least some of us do. AE I'd rather live with the ghosts than the consequences of aiding and AE abetting. AE Todd I forwarded the Moral Dilemma to a friend who said he would hand Bush the camera and ask Bush to take a picture of him. Didn't care whether it would be black and white or color. Truth is we never know what we'll do until the moment and then sometimes we surprise ourselves. Ghosts can be hard to live with and sometimes they bring demons but with the right frame of mind one can handle it. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straà liegen, daà?sie gerade deshalb von der gewëænlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
So. COLOR OR BLACK WHITE? On Thursday, Feb 19, 2004, at 12:19 US/Eastern, Greg and April wrote: By rising above what the other person did, although there must be some limits. In some cases, it must be with an olive branch of peace in one hand and a weapon of war in the other. I welcome people into my house, when invited, but, at the same time, I will defend my family and others ( even if it means my own death ), from anyone intent on harm. The hardest thing to do, is to determine if an action is going to do more harm than good, some cases are clear as crystal, but, many are not. It is even worse if your a leader trying to do the best for your country, more so if your trying to help the world as well. I would never want to be the President of the U.S. More is expected of them, than any other citizen of the U.S. especially with such deep divisions as we have. For all his faults, the President is a better man that I, not just because he deals with major issues, on a daily basis, but, because he *willingly* does it and in general, probably with more of a even hand than I would want use. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 09:46 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... How do you lend aid to those who wreak so much devastation? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Formerly, when religion was strong and science weak, men mistook magic for medicine; now, when science is strong and religion weak, men mistake medicine for magic. Thomas Szasz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
Neither, I would try and save him, just like I would most anyone else. Greg H. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 19:11 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... So. COLOR OR BLACK WHITE? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
Greg, Good job or not, it must be something wrong. It is so many well researched investigations, that link air pollution and premature death. It is no doubt and you can almost directly quantify the premature death at different pollution levels. It is a difficult problem and a concern for any who understand it. For any President or nations leader to put his signature under weakening of pollution regulations, is a matter of dooming a certain number of his own people to a premature death. Your current president has done so and the effects and casualties will be larger than any modern US push button warfare. I do not call that to do the best, hard job or not, if the goal should be to serve his country and citizens. Beside that, it is good with high pollution standards, because most of them also lead to energy conservation and less dependence of foreign supplies. Hakan At 01:26 20/02/2004, you wrote: Perhaps, but, you know what they say, Expect the unexpected . I once blew my personal reputation out the door, back when I was a teen, and now I work at keeping it in good shape, but, despite all the good I have done since then, people still hold it against me, almost 20 years later. Add in the fact that others would hold my religion against me, saying it would make me unfit for any political office, because I would be unable to maintain separation of church and state. I despise the mud slinging that the race for political office has become, and I despise even more the media that pushes it for all it's worth, it's no longer even a veiled attempt at honesty, is has become a best of the worst - popularity contest ( indeed I personally think that it has become as bad as it is because of the extent that the media drives it ). I personally wouldn't want the job, but, for one big qualification, unless I had no other choice in supporting the Constitution. Like any President, he walks a fine line, a tightrope if you will. Not only that, every third person is trying to push him off. The other two people fall into one of 3 categories: The first category are trying to hold him up, the second category, flat out don't care one way or the other so long as they get what they think belongs to them ( which to my way of thinking is the worst possible category ), and the third type is willing to try work with him to make things better, despite differences. I always hope that when push comes to shove I can respect and support the office of President of the United States of America, even though I may despise and/or disagree with the man in it ( not mentioning any particular Presidents past, present, or future ), because he has the hardest bloody job in the world, and only a fraction of the support. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 14:53 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... Sorry Greg, That was a rhetorical question. Not one that I either sought or expected an answer to. Rising above the devasting practices of another sometimes requires insuring that the other no longer has the opportunity to practice such devastation. Hence my response of the third option - to do nothing. I have no clue as to your personal reputation or desire to follow a honest and forthright path. But I can tell you that George Bush has chosen neither. He's a desecration to his faith and to the nation he swore to serve. If that makes him a better man than anyone, then everyone has a serious problem - a problem which has been recognized for four years. Sadly, a stop wasn't put to it before the last three began. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... By rising above what the other person did, although there must be some limits. In some cases, it must be with an olive branch of peace in one hand and a weapon of war in the other. I welcome people into my house, when invited, but, at the same time, I will defend my family and others ( even if it means my own death ), from anyone intent on harm. The hardest thing to do, is to determine if an action is going to do more harm than good, some cases are clear as crystal, but, many are not. It is even worse if your a leader trying to do the best for your country, more so if your trying to help the world as well. I would never want to be the President of the U.S. More is expected of them, than any other citizen of the U.S. especially with such deep divisions as we have. For all his faults, the President is a better man that I, not just because he deals with major issues, on a daily basis, but, because he *willingly* does it and in general, probably with more of a even hand than
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
x-charset ISO-8859-1What's even more amazing Bryan? It never ceases to amaze me how brainwashed people are. That you let yourself fall into the polarizing us-them, democrat-republican trap. It doesn't matter which party is in power, we're getting screwed either way. Is that you're the first person on this thread to frame it as an us-them - democrat-republican thang. I can tell you one thing for absolute certain. Had Shrub not been appointed we'd still have PNGV and probably a few 10,000 more hybrids on the road and a myriad of other similar far reaching policies that would benefit future generations rather than lining the pockets of contemporary corporations as is the present destructive trend. Uhhhthere's just one other thing. If you think that you can effect substantial change much beyond what color of socks you're going to wear in the morning, you're going to have to give some long consideration to utilizing whatever yahoos might be in office on any given day - either utilize their stupidity against themselves or utilize their sway. But you won't get as much done by discounting them. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Bryan Brah [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 4:46 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... Dubya is a corrupt palm-greasing politician, who does exactly what his handlers tell him to do. However we could do a lot worse for a leader. Imagine in this little scenario, that you let Georgie boy sink like a stone, would Dick be a better president? Would there even be a pretense of a separation of Corp and State? For all that imagine that you are faced with the same dilemma but in October 2000, and instead it is Candidate Bush who is about to drown; do you think living under Wooden Al for the last four years would have been any different? Or would we still be in the same boat. Maybe not, but we could just as easily have been in a second cold war had Mr. Internet succeeded in selling our remaining weapons technology to the Chinese to benefit his buddies at Loran and Hughes. It never ceases to amaze me how brainwashed people are. That you let yourself fall into the polarizing us-them, democrat-republican trap. It doesn't matter which party is in power, we're getting screwed either way. 2004 is turning out to be another ivy league presidential race between two Skull and Bones Alumni. If Kerry gets elected, what do you think will actually change? GW will just retire to build his library and make million dollar speaking engagements. There's an old joke that goes something like Why do politicians look different? Answer: So you can tell them apart. I don't profess to know the solution to our problems, but I can say for sure that it's not going to come from either political party or their corporate-sponsored lackeys. -BRAH -Original Message- From: Greg and April [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 11:19 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... By rising above what the other person did, although there must be some limits. In some cases, it must be with an olive branch of peace in one hand and a weapon of war in the other. I welcome people into my house, when invited, but, at the same time, I will defend my family and others ( even if it means my own death ), from anyone intent on harm. The hardest thing to do, is to determine if an action is going to do more harm than good, some cases are clear as crystal, but, many are not. It is even worse if your a leader trying to do the best for your country, more so if your trying to help the world as well. I would never want to be the President of the U.S. More is expected of them, than any other citizen of the U.S. especially with such deep divisions as we have. For all his faults, the President is a better man that I, not just because he deals with major issues, on a daily basis, but, because he *willingly* does it and in general, probably with more of a even hand than I would want use. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 09:46 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... How do you lend aid to those who wreak so much devastation? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
Hi I'm asssuming Todd wrote the original question about color or bw. Great question. I laughed my ass off when I first read it. I've never seen so many replys. What's scary is how many people are missing the question and are responding to the red herring. what's even scarier is how many people don't understand Georges job discription which is: Move as much money as possible from the treasury of the united states and the pockets of the citizens, to the bank accounts and coffers of his fellow bonesmen. So you see, George is doing an excellent job. btw both Kerry and Dean are bonesmen so it is safe too predict the winner of the presidency for the next four years is Skull and Bones, On Thursday, Feb 19, 2004, at 22:39 US/Eastern, Hakan Falk wrote: Greg, Good job or not, it must be something wrong. It is so many well researched investigations, that link air pollution and premature death. It is no doubt and you can almost directly quantify the premature death at different pollution levels. It is a difficult problem and a concern for any who understand it. For any President or nations leader to put his signature under weakening of pollution regulations, is a matter of dooming a certain number of his own people to a premature death. Your current president has done so and the effects and casualties will be larger than any modern US push button warfare. I do not call that to do the best, hard job or not, if the goal should be to serve his country and citizens. Beside that, it is good with high pollution standards, because most of them also lead to energy conservation and less dependence of foreign supplies. Hakan At 01:26 20/02/2004, you wrote: Perhaps, but, you know what they say, Expect the unexpected . I once blew my personal reputation out the door, back when I was a teen, and now I work at keeping it in good shape, but, despite all the good I have done since then, people still hold it against me, almost 20 years later. Add in the fact that others would hold my religion against me, saying it would make me unfit for any political office, because I would be unable to maintain separation of church and state. I despise the mud slinging that the race for political office has become, and I despise even more the media that pushes it for all it's worth, it's no longer even a veiled attempt at honesty, is has become a best of the worst - popularity contest ( indeed I personally think that it has become as bad as it is because of the extent that the media drives it ). I personally wouldn't want the job, but, for one big qualification, unless I had no other choice in supporting the Constitution. Like any President, he walks a fine line, a tightrope if you will. Not only that, every third person is trying to push him off. The other two people fall into one of 3 categories: The first category are trying to hold him up, the second category, flat out don't care one way or the other so long as they get what they think belongs to them ( which to my way of thinking is the worst possible category ), and the third type is willing to try work with him to make things better, despite differences. I always hope that when push comes to shove I can respect and support the office of President of the United States of America, even though I may despise and/or disagree with the man in it ( not mentioning any particular Presidents past, present, or future ), because he has the hardest bloody job in the world, and only a fraction of the support. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 14:53 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... Sorry Greg, That was a rhetorical question. Not one that I either sought or expected an answer to. Rising above the devasting practices of another sometimes requires insuring that the other no longer has the opportunity to practice such devastation. Hence my response of the third option - to do nothing. I have no clue as to your personal reputation or desire to follow a honest and forthright path. But I can tell you that George Bush has chosen neither. He's a desecration to his faith and to the nation he swore to serve. If that makes him a better man than anyone, then everyone has a serious problem - a problem which has been recognized for four years. Sadly, a stop wasn't put to it before the last three began. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... By rising above what the other person did, although there must be some limits. In some cases, it must be with an olive branch of peace in one hand and a weapon of war in the other. I welcome people into my house
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
x-charset ISO-8859-1Greg, most anyone else. ??? That's telling. Care to elaborate on the qualifiers? :-) ... Chuckle, chuckle...smurfsnort I believe a good number have already placed Shrub a little lower on the food chain than perhaps you would. I'm just curious as to how low of a piece of goat scrod someone would have to be to qualify for lack of assistance. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... Neither, I would try and save him, just like I would most anyone else. Greg H. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 19:11 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... So. COLOR OR BLACK WHITE? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Moral Dilemma??? Was:: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
x-charset ISO-8859-1I don't believe this thread. If I found George W. Hitler-M16-the-Jews-and-kick-em-into-mass-graves Bush moaning under the rubble of the fallen WTC I'm sorry I would still attempt to rescue him. I look at it this way. Whatever he may or may-not have done guys ... that's between HIM and DEITY. And come Judgement Day (or what have you), it will be HIM to answer you know NOT ME.MY TEST ... IMHO .. will simply be that I saw an injured man. And what did I do about it. That is my test. I'm starting to get rather annoyed. About all this talk of (what should I call it??) Playing God. Determining whether a man should live or die. I mean .. who are we?? Well ... that's my $0.02 Curtis - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] I believe a good number have already placed Shrub a little lower on the food chain than perhaps you would. I'm just curious as to how low of a piece of goat scrod someone would have to be to qualify for lack of assistance. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
It's actually very simple. I am Christian enough to honestly believe that I would at least try to save everyone, BUT, I know that I am human enough to have my doubts, about saving a few people. Examples: My ex brother-in-law, that abused my sister. A few people that have stabbed me in the back / ripped me off, after I have helped them. There is my moral dilemma, I know that I should forgive and help them, but, I don't know if I actually would, and that bothers the heck out of me. You can laugh if you want ( actually it appears you did ), but, it's not easy or fun going through life, knowing that you could have made the difference, but, didn't. I know it from personal experience, that it is not the least bit funny. So all the crap about the choice about color or black and white film is nothing but fecal matter, that is not even fit for use as fertilizer. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 21:30 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... Greg, most anyone else. ??? That's telling. Care to elaborate on the qualifiers? :-) ... Chuckle, chuckle...smurfsnort I believe a good number have already placed Shrub a little lower on the food chain than perhaps you would. I'm just curious as to how low of a piece of goat scrod someone would have to be to qualify for lack of assistance. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... Neither, I would try and save him, just like I would most anyone else. Greg H. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 19:11 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... So. COLOR OR BLACK WHITE? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
x-charset ISO-8859-1Greg, The black and white or color film was the punchline of the joke. The real heart of the matter is the pondering of not only the morality of the potential rescuer but the practices of the person in peril and how those practices give cause for such a choice to exist in the first place. Sounds as if you need to bury that guilt instead of letting it rule you any longer. No point in crying over spilled lager any longer than a sincere lament. As for born again? Done there. Been that. Found out that I was born right the first time and that the applied morality of the church was in contradiction to the written word. Seems that most christians can't discern that there is no difference between putting a bullet in someone's brain and knowingly poisoning their drinking water with a multi-million dollar paper mill or PCBs or mercury or any other that in turn slowly kills others. They can't fathom how economic policies that pay for their Sunday go to meetin' clothes and high living can steal food out of the mouths and healthcare out of the communities of distant peoples. Hell..., forget distant. Just look across any American town or city. And if it's not a pulp mill or the like, it's an insurance company, pharmaceutical company or any other grossly obese and/or immorally opportunistic human activity. Slow death vs fast death. None of them could see that jobs, tax base and freedom as defined by corporatism and capitalism don't justify murder. So no. Much as Hakan pointed out, I see little difference between a dictator and a facilitator who circumvents or eradicates policies that erode and outright destroy human life, all the while hiding behind a religious veil. To hell with the we're all fallible human beings crap as a buffer and excuse. We're all human. But we're all to be responsible for what we know. Bush is a willing participant in the devastation that he facilitates and could care less - or at least believes that it's okay as he'll supposedly be forgiven for it. A lot of good his being forgiven is going to do those people who's lives are destroyed in the process of his folly. In any event, his brand of religion as exercised in his position makes him a danger to all those who exist at present and have yet to exist - Buddhist, Trappist, Amish, Baptist, Agnostic and Anarchist alike - which is in itself an indictment every time he wraps himself in the right to life flag. Simply put? He's a hippocrit, a fraud and a con who does not serve the best interests of any people other than those who are as care-less as he. That's not an opinion. That's the conviction of hundreds of millions, among which hundreds if not thousands are theologians. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 1:37 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... It's actually very simple. I am Christian enough to honestly believe that I would at least try to save everyone, BUT, I know that I am human enough to have my doubts, about saving a few people. Examples: My ex brother-in-law, that abused my sister. A few people that have stabbed me in the back / ripped me off, after I have helped them. There is my moral dilemma, I know that I should forgive and help them, but, I don't know if I actually would, and that bothers the heck out of me. You can laugh if you want ( actually it appears you did ), but, it's not easy or fun going through life, knowing that you could have made the difference, but, didn't. I know it from personal experience, that it is not the least bit funny. So all the crap about the choice about color or black and white film is nothing but fecal matter, that is not even fit for use as fertilizer. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 21:30 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... Greg, most anyone else. ??? That's telling. Care to elaborate on the qualifiers? :-) ... Chuckle, chuckle...smurfsnort I believe a good number have already placed Shrub a little lower on the food chain than perhaps you would. I'm just curious as to how low of a piece of goat scrod someone would have to be to qualify for lack of assistance. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... Neither, I would try and save him, just like I would most anyone else. Greg H. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 19:11 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... So. COLOR OR BLACK WHITE? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel
[biofuel] Moral Dilemma
Hi maniacal engineer, what about Madeleine invited Saddam to invade Kuwait,when asked about the US Policy concerning an Invasion she replied,The US have no policy on this Sadam was stupid enough to fall in this Trap and the US had the pretext for going in the middle east (where they had lost theire influence after the Iranrevolution! Fritz in case any of you have forgotten, Saddam actually did invade his neighbors, and yes the US did support him (to the extent that we provided 3% of his armaments during the iran/iraq war) aginst what we viewed as a more serious threat, namely radical islamism (no that isn't a typo). But when he moved against kuwait it didn't seem prudent to do nothing, since he had a proven track record of aggression. so we kicked him out of kuwait and then instituted sanctions if he violated the ceasefire- which he did. Ideally we would have gone back in a year or two later to enforce the cease fire terms, but by that time it was a new adminisration so it didnt happen. had we done so there would have been only a fraction of the deaths related to sanctions. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
x-charset ISO-8859-1Actually, there is a third answer to this... Moral Dilemma... This test only has one question, but it's a very important one. Please don't answer it without giving it some serious thought. By giving an honest answer you will be able to ascertain where you stand morally. The test features an unlikely, completely fictional situation, where you will have to make a decision one way or the other. Remember that your answer should to be honest, yet spontaneous. Please scroll down slowly and consider each line - this is important for the test to work accurately. You're in Florida. In Miami, to be exact. There is great chaos going on around you, caused by a hurricane and severe floods. There are huge masses of water all around you. You are an Associated Press photographer and you are in the middle of this great disaster. The situation is nearly hopeless. You're trying to shoot very impressive photos. There are houses afloat all around, people floating disappearing into the water. Nature is showing all its awesome power. Suddenly you see a man in the water - he is fighting for his life, trying not to be taken away by the masses of water and mud. You move closer. Somehow the man looks familiar. Suddenly you know who it is - it's George W. Bush! At the same time you notice that the raging waters are about to take him away, forever. You have two options. You can save him or you can take the best photo of your life. You can't do both. You can either save the life of George W. Bush, or you can shoot a Pulitzer Prize winning photo, a unique photo chronicling one of the world's most powerful men in a battle against the power of nature itself. Here's the question (please give an honest answer): Would you select color film, or instead go for the simplicity of classic black and white? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
BW, always -- as Ansel Adams proved, even sunsets are great in BW. Then, when I save His Majesty, I give him some zinger, like, you owe the rest of your life to the simple schmucks like ME!..Bwahahahaha -K Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
Hi Always shoot color. Photoshop can get excellent BW from color slides and negatives. As far as the other part is concerned. There is no dilemma. You are there to record history. not be a part of it or change it. I've gotten in trouble for this a few times myself. Supposedly there are a few exceptions - After you have exhausted every photo opportunity it might be OK to rescue the baby from the Pit Bull. In Bush's case the best shot has to be as he goes under for the last time. Best Regards Fred On Wednesday, Feb 18, 2004, at 20:14 US/Eastern, Appal Energy wrote: Actually, there is a third answer to this... Moral Dilemma... This test only has one question, but it's a very important one. Please don't answer it without giving it some serious thought. By giving an honest answer you will be able to ascertain where you stand morally. The test features an unlikely, completely fictional situation, where you will have to make a decision one way or the other. Remember that your answer should to be honest, yet spontaneous. Please scroll down slowly and consider each line - this is important for the test to work accurately. You're in Florida. In Miami, to be exact. There is great chaos going on around you, caused by a hurricane and severe floods. There are huge masses of water all around you. You are an Associated Press photographer and you are in the middle of this great disaster. The situation is nearly hopeless. You're trying to shoot very impressive photos. There are houses afloat all around, people floating disappearing into the water. Nature is showing all its awesome power. Suddenly you see a man in the water - he is fighting for his life, trying not to be taken away by the masses of water and mud. You move closer. Somehow the man looks familiar. Suddenly you know who it is - it's George W. Bush! At the same time you notice that the raging waters are about to take him away, forever. You have two options. You can save him or you can take the best photo of your life. You can't do both. You can either save the life of George W. Bush, or you can shoot a Pulitzer Prize winning photo, a unique photo chronicling one of the world's most powerful men in a battle against the power of nature itself. Here's the question (please give an honest answer): Would you select color film, or instead go for the simplicity of classic black and white? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM - ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Formerly, when religion was strong and science weak, men mistook magic for medicine; now, when science is strong and religion weak, men mistake medicine for magic. Thomas Szasz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
Cute, very cute! I'd save him if I could then make him work as an indentured servant for the widows of his war on terror, both sides' widows. --- Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, there is a third answer to this... Moral Dilemma... This test only has one question, but it's a very important one. Please don't answer it without giving it some serious thought. By giving an honest answer you will be able to ascertain where you stand morally. The test features an unlikely, completely fictional situation, where you will have to make a decision one way or the other. Remember that your answer should to be honest, yet spontaneous. Please scroll down slowly and consider each line - this is important for the test to work accurately. You're in Florida. In Miami, to be exact. There is great chaos going on around you, caused by a hurricane and severe floods. There are huge masses of water all around you. You are an Associated Press photographer and you are in the middle of this great disaster. The situation is nearly hopeless. You're trying to shoot very impressive photos. There are houses afloat all around, people floating disappearing into the water. Nature is showing all its awesome power. Suddenly you see a man in the water - he is fighting for his life, trying not to be taken away by the masses of water and mud. You move closer. Somehow the man looks familiar. Suddenly you know who it is - it's George W. Bush! At the same time you notice that the raging waters are about to take him away, forever. You have two options. You can save him or you can take the best photo of your life. You can't do both. You can either save the life of George W. Bush, or you can shoot a Pulitzer Prize winning photo, a unique photo chronicling one of the world's most powerful men in a battle against the power of nature itself. Here's the question (please give an honest answer): Would you select color film, or instead go for the simplicity of classic black and white? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
Moral Dilemma... This test only has one question, but it's a very important one. One question ? Please don't answer it without giving it some serious thought. By giving an honest answer you will be able to ascertain where you stand morally. Serious thought, hmm... The test features an unlikely, completely fictional situation, where you will have to make a decision one way or the other. Remember that your answer should to be honest, yet spontaneous. Spontaneity ? Please scroll down slowly and consider each line - this is important for the test to work accurately. OK You're in Florida. In Miami, to be exact. There is great chaos going on around you, caused by a hurricane and severe floods. There are huge masses of water all around you. You are an Associated Press photographer and you are in the middle of this great disaster. The situation is nearly hopeless. You're trying to shoot very impressive photos. There are houses afloat all around, people floating disappearing into the water. Nature is showing all its awesome power. Suddenly you see a man in the water - he is fighting for his life, trying not to be taken away by the masses of water and mud. You move closer. Somehow the man looks familiar. Suddenly you know who it is - it's George W. Bush! At the same time you notice that the raging waters are about to take him away, forever. You have two options. You can save him or you can take the best photo of your life. You can't do both. My old testament suggests a tooth for a tooth and if it offend they... but the new testament says do unto others... and we fall short of the glory... You can either save the life of George W. Bush, or you can shoot a Pulitzer Prize winning photo, a unique photo chronicling one of the world's most powerful men in a battle against the power of nature itself. Here's the question (please give an honest answer): Would you select color film, or instead go for the simplicity of classic black and white? I'm note sure but I think I held out a hand -or- either opportunity was lost due to indecision of this 'moral dilemma'. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...about Bush
Guys and Gals, Please do not be so nasty to the poor guy, he cannot do better/worse than he is already doing. He tries his best and only because he does not have capacity to do better, you do not need to harass him. The best would be if you helped him out of this difficult situation in next election. It is not his fault, it is the fault of those who voted for him in the last election and of course the judicial system of US, who put him where he is and wouldn't be without the judges. Democracy is a wonderful thing, when the highest court in the country can help you, if you loose the populous vote. It should be implemented as a model in the rest of the world. I do agree about shooting in color and afterwards you can always make the dramatic pictures when he goes under in BW, very good advice. Hakan At 03:49 19/02/2004, you wrote: Hi Always shoot color. Photoshop can get excellent BW from color slides and negatives. As far as the other part is concerned. There is no dilemma. You are there to record history. not be a part of it or change it. I've gotten in trouble for this a few times myself. Supposedly there are a few exceptions - After you have exhausted every photo opportunity it might be OK to rescue the baby from the Pit Bull. In Bush's case the best shot has to be as he goes under for the last time. Best Regards Fred On Wednesday, Feb 18, 2004, at 20:14 US/Eastern, Appal Energy wrote: Actually, there is a third answer to this... Moral Dilemma... This test only has one question, but it's a very important one. Please don't answer it without giving it some serious thought. By giving an honest answer you will be able to ascertain where you stand morally. The test features an unlikely, completely fictional situation, where you will have to make a decision one way or the other. Remember that your answer should to be honest, yet spontaneous. Please scroll down slowly and consider each line - this is important for the test to work accurately. You're in Florida. In Miami, to be exact. There is great chaos going on around you, caused by a hurricane and severe floods. There are huge masses of water all around you. You are an Associated Press photographer and you are in the middle of this great disaster. The situation is nearly hopeless. You're trying to shoot very impressive photos. There are houses afloat all around, people floating disappearing into the water. Nature is showing all its awesome power. Suddenly you see a man in the water - he is fighting for his life, trying not to be taken away by the masses of water and mud. You move closer. Somehow the man looks familiar. Suddenly you know who it is - it's George W. Bush! At the same time you notice that the raging waters are about to take him away, forever. You have two options. You can save him or you can take the best photo of your life. You can't do both. You can either save the life of George W. Bush, or you can shoot a Pulitzer Prize winning photo, a unique photo chronicling one of the world's most powerful men in a battle against the power of nature itself. Here's the question (please give an honest answer): Would you select color film, or instead go for the simplicity of classic black and white? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM - ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Formerly, when religion was strong and science weak, men mistook magic for medicine; now, when science is strong and religion weak, men mistake medicine for magic. Thomas Szasz Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
By choosing to take the picture, you put yourself on a level lower than him, choosing fame and glory, above human life. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 18:14 Subject: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... Actually, there is a third answer to this... Moral Dilemma... This test only has one question, but it's a very important one. Please don't answer it without giving it some serious thought. By giving an honest answer you will be able to ascertain where you stand morally. The test features an unlikely, completely fictional situation, where you will have to make a decision one way or the other. Remember that your answer should to be honest, yet spontaneous. SNIP [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
Hi Guys, what about having the the Prez before rescuing him promess to get out for ever of Politics and recluse himself in a remote Mountainmonastery ? Fritz - Original Message - From: Greg and April To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... By choosing to take the picture, you put yourself on a level lower than him, choosing fame and glory, above human life. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 18:14 Subject: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... Actually, there is a third answer to this... Moral Dilemma... This test only has one question, but it's a very important one. Please don't answer it without giving it some serious thought. By giving an honest answer you will be able to ascertain where you stand morally. The test features an unlikely, completely fictional situation, where you will have to make a decision one way or the other. Remember that your answer should to be honest, yet spontaneous. SNIP [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
x-charset ISO-8859-1 By choosing to take the picture, you put yourself on a level lower than him, choosing fame and glory, above human life. That's one of the reasons I discerned there to be a third answer - do nothing. Sadly, a great number of people would find themselves instantaneously torn between a decision to do nothing or to throw a line or extend a hand. Certainly that dilemma is brought about through no fault of their own. How do you lend aid to those who wreak so much devastation? Seems to be the eternal question in this country - one that not many administrations pause to ponder - as evidenced by our foreign policies. I for one would care to see an entire warehouse of such policies canceled and the US get back to the process of living - opposed to obtaining. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... By choosing to take the picture, you put yourself on a level lower than him, choosing fame and glory, above human life. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 18:14 Subject: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... Actually, there is a third answer to this... Moral Dilemma... This test only has one question, but it's a very important one. Please don't answer it without giving it some serious thought. By giving an honest answer you will be able to ascertain where you stand morally. The test features an unlikely, completely fictional situation, where you will have to make a decision one way or the other. Remember that your answer should to be honest, yet spontaneous. SNIP [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
By rising above what the other person did, although there must be some limits. In some cases, it must be with an olive branch of peace in one hand and a weapon of war in the other. I welcome people into my house, when invited, but, at the same time, I will defend my family and others ( even if it means my own death ), from anyone intent on harm. The hardest thing to do, is to determine if an action is going to do more harm than good, some cases are clear as crystal, but, many are not. It is even worse if your a leader trying to do the best for your country, more so if your trying to help the world as well. I would never want to be the President of the U.S. More is expected of them, than any other citizen of the U.S. especially with such deep divisions as we have. For all his faults, the President is a better man that I, not just because he deals with major issues, on a daily basis, but, because he *willingly* does it and in general, probably with more of a even hand than I would want use. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 09:46 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... How do you lend aid to those who wreak so much devastation? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
Hi Always shoot color. Photoshop can get excellent BW from color slides and negatives. As far as the other part is concerned. There is no dilemma. You are there to record history. not be a part of it or change it. I've gotten in trouble for this a few times myself. Supposedly there are a few exceptions - After you have exhausted every photo opportunity it might be OK to rescue the baby from the Pit Bull. That's an old myth, Fred, and much as the entire media establishment strives to maintain it, it's a myth nonetheless. You must be objective, hm? How're you going to manage that? And Heisenberg doesn't apply to journalists, we're not part of what we observe, we stand aloof and play no role in it other than merely to record, a mere conduit, a pipe - what a joke! Journalists make subjective decisions about what to write, what to write about, what not to write about, what's relevant and what's not, all the time, they do little else, whether they do it in conformance with media precepts and holy writ or not... and indeed it changes the outcome. Many journalists like the myth because it means no can for them to carry, the buck doesn't stop with them, they think. Many others, especially since we had all this out (again) in the 60s and 70s, are aware that the true role of the Fourth Estate is not served but rather obstructed by the required objectivity, the journalist-as-pipe approach, and have both developed better ways and practised them, despite usually less than cosy relations with the likes of news editors (the reason about two-thirds of my working career has been as a freelancer). The back cover of Harold Evans's Pictures on a page has the headline: Why is the girl in the centre smiling? Below that is a photograph of a bunch of people on a beach, worried onlookers surrounding lifesavers and a medic treating a man lying unconscious on the sand, and the girl, kneeling beside him, smiling up at the camera. The caption: Her fiance lies at death's door after being rescued from the sea. She smiles because she saw a press cameraman and knew her picture was going in the papers. The way photo-journalism changes - as well as reflects - the world we see is one of the themes of this fascinating book. In Bush's case the best shot has to be as he goes under for the last time. You'd wait for the best shot? Best Regards Fred On Wednesday, Feb 18, 2004, at 20:14 US/Eastern, Appal Energy wrote: Actually, there is a third answer to this... What is it, Todd? Here's one possible third answer - I'm a lousy swimmer. And a fourth - journalist or not, I wouldn't take pictures of someone drowning, no matter who it was. Yet... as always, it depends... I have a file of most ghoulish and brutal photographs here, from all over the world, used in a 1991 campaign by Amnesty, very effective. Only one power in the world is strong enough to say to the world's governments 'I will no longer allow this to happen.'... That power is public opinion. Hence perhaps the need to keep it shackled. The 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy. -- Alex Carey, Australian social scientist Regards Keith Moral Dilemma... This test only has one question, but it's a very important one. Please don't answer it without giving it some serious thought. By giving an honest answer you will be able to ascertain where you stand morally. The test features an unlikely, completely fictional situation, where you will have to make a decision one way or the other. Remember that your answer should to be honest, yet spontaneous. Please scroll down slowly and consider each line - this is important for the test to work accurately. You're in Florida. In Miami, to be exact. There is great chaos going on around you, caused by a hurricane and severe floods. There are huge masses of water all around you. You are an Associated Press photographer and you are in the middle of this great disaster. The situation is nearly hopeless. You're trying to shoot very impressive photos. There are houses afloat all around, people floating disappearing into the water. Nature is showing all its awesome power. Suddenly you see a man in the water - he is fighting for his life, trying not to be taken away by the masses of water and mud. You move closer. Somehow the man looks familiar. Suddenly you know who it is - it's George W. Bush! At the same time you notice that the raging waters are about to take him away, forever. You have two options. You can save him or you can take the best photo of your life. You can't do both. You can either save the life of George W. Bush, or you can shoot
Re[2]: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
x-charset ISO-8859-1Hallo Todd, Thursday, 19 February, 2004, 11:46:14, you wrote: By choosing to take the picture, you put yourself on a level lower than AE him, choosing fame and glory, above human life. AE That's one of the reasons I discerned there to be a third answer - do AE nothing. ...snip... Well brother, there are ALWAYS more than 2 options. It is just a matter of understanding what else one can do. You could realize you couldn't help him yourself and go for help, eh? As for lower level? Depends on whether one wishes to play the number game or not. Bush is directly responsible for ALL the deaths on ALL sides in Iraq and you would only be responsible for one. I don't see how that makes you lower than him. I have heard a lot of people pissing and moaning about how so many people had the chance to kill Hitler and berate them for not doing that. For my money one life is not worth more than another whether it is a Bush or Hitler or my own for that matter. We don't all hold to the same morals or ethics. They vary not only from society to society and culture to culture but from individuals within those various societies and cultures. And, even within our own groups we do not all agree as to what is or isn't moral, allowable, etc. In the end, for me at least, it is between me and God. For others it may be between themselves and their conscience or whatever, but in the end it is a personal decision. If you choose to take the picture or do nothing rather than risk your own neck you have reasons for that decision and no one else is privy to those reasons. They may be perfectly valid despite appearancesand may be perfectly understandable and acceptable as well. Besides, you are in a situation not of your own choosing. I find it very hard to be judgemental in such a situation unlike one of ones own creation such as those of folks in the political and financial world whose decisions force people into situations not of their choosing. Greg's opinion is one of many ways of looking at the situation. Until one has the ability to look into anothers heart however it is just an uninformed opinion based on assumptions and appearances. And a bit from another message: GH For all his faults, the President is a better man that I, not GH just because he deals with major issues, on a daily basis, but, GH because he *willingly* does it and in general, probably with more GH of a even hand than I would want use. This is another unsubstantiated assumption. The president a better manthanGreg? The photographer is in a situation he did not make. The president is in a position which he sought out. While we still cannot see into his heart we can see the impact of his decisions on a daily basis. We can see who is empowered, who is enriched, who is disenfranchised. If we care enough and are thorough enough we can find out how A is connected to B is connected to C and so on right back to A in some measure. Of course he does it willingly. It not only gives him enormous control it removes many if not most of the strictures imposed on the average person. Don't forget, the terms national interest, That is classified. and You don't have the need to know. cover a lot of sins. Bush and his running mates in the political and financial sectors pretty much have a free and unseen ride unless someone does something so aggregious it cannot escape public scrutiny and when that happens someone lower on the totem pole is expected to fall on their sword. As for evenhanded...the only thing he is evenhanded about is bending over anyone not willing to play his game and putting a number nine up their (read our)stern tubes. I think Greg does not give himself enough credit and way too much credit to the politico-economic elite. When we talk about public service it would do us well to remember that the bull services the cow. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straà liegen, daà?sie gerade deshalb von der gewëænlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe
Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma...
x-charset ISO-8859-1Sorry Greg, That was a rhetorical question. Not one that I either sought or expected an answer to. Rising above the devasting practices of another sometimes requires insuring that the other no longer has the opportunity to practice such devastation. Hence my response of the third option - to do nothing. I have no clue as to your personal reputation or desire to follow a honest and forthright path. But I can tell you that George Bush has chosen neither. He's a desecration to his faith and to the nation he swore to serve. If that makes him a better man than anyone, then everyone has a serious problem - a problem which has been recognized for four years. Sadly, a stop wasn't put to it before the last three began. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 12:19 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... By rising above what the other person did, although there must be some limits. In some cases, it must be with an olive branch of peace in one hand and a weapon of war in the other. I welcome people into my house, when invited, but, at the same time, I will defend my family and others ( even if it means my own death ), from anyone intent on harm. The hardest thing to do, is to determine if an action is going to do more harm than good, some cases are clear as crystal, but, many are not. It is even worse if your a leader trying to do the best for your country, more so if your trying to help the world as well. I would never want to be the President of the U.S. More is expected of them, than any other citizen of the U.S. especially with such deep divisions as we have. For all his faults, the President is a better man that I, not just because he deals with major issues, on a daily basis, but, because he *willingly* does it and in general, probably with more of a even hand than I would want use. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 09:46 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Moral Dilemma... How do you lend aid to those who wreak so much devastation? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ /x-charset
