Re: [talk-ph] Micro Mapping Party in Ortigas-Mandaluyong on May 22
This sounds good. And thanks for keeping my request in mind, Eugene! Unfortunately, I will be out of the country on the weekend of the 22nd. Please let me know if we can. Resched to another date - weekday, perhaps or on another weekend. I've yet to figure out how to upload the correct data to OSM. On May 15, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: Hi guys, I really don't think we could push through with the Corregidor Mapping Party. Planning was mostly nonexistent and I don't think many people are willing to spend a large amount of money for the ferry trip and the possible overnight stay in the hotel on Corregidor. Let's postpone that island for a while. In the meantime, I suggest we tackle parts of Metro Manila that are still incomplete: 1. Mandaluyong-Shaw area: http://sautter.com/map/?zoom=17lat=14.58246lon=121.04721layers=B0TF This area of Mandaluyong is still missing a lot of streets because they are covered by clouds in the Yahoo satellite imagery. 2. Ortigas CBD: http://sautter.com/map/?zoom=17lat=14.58448lon=121.05964layers=B0TF In contrast to the Makati CBD, Ortigas is still pretty blank in its building coverage. 3. Metrowalk-Ortigas Home Depot: http://sautter.com/map/?zoom=17lat=14.58647lon=121.06578layers=B0TF Yahoo's satellite imagery in this area predates the large retail construction here so it would be nice if we can map this new development. One nice thing about this is that these three areas are near each other and since this is Ortigas, meeting up would be easier. And after the on-the-field surveying, let's meet up after and have that newbies tutorial session that Carlos suggested. What do you guys think? :-) Eugene ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] Bacolod is still a big problem
Hi, this topic is discussed every now and then. Facts are free, but you can't use the help of copyright protected material. If you only copy one house/street/whatever maybe that doesn't matter. But what if all of us are doing this? You end up with a 100% copy of the map and than even you will agree, that this is a no go. So where to drew the line? It's impossible and that's why the community agrees not to use copyright protected maps even for a poi to copy. What you can to with this maps is comparing for areas which need attention, go there and do your mappings. Or use openstreetbugs to report them, so others can pick up. OSM license allows anyone to use our data for any purpose and without the need to give anything back, even sell it and make money out of your/our work. They only have to mention the license. That's the open part in OSM. But you can't expect to do everyone like this and we respect this. Take a look at the OSM history, e.g. http://www.geofabrik.de/en/gallery/history/index.html It's amazing what has been done only with free sources or donated date in this short periode of time. We should be proud of it and keep the OSM free from data of copyright protected sources. If there are white spaces, give it some time and somebody will do traces and close them. We need more mappers. Also note, that google and others can't give away what they don't have. The images on goolge maps/earth are bought from other companys which own the copyright - you can see the company's name on the map. Maybe this will change if they are using the images from their own satellite. AFAIK they wanted to wait with updating gmaps when they have images from the whole world. IMHO they should have them already - we'll see. There is even an difference in the yahoo images free to copy and the ones on the yahoo webpage which are not free to copy. See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Yahoo!_Aerial_Imagery On the other hand pls. be aware that not everybody want's to upload this gps tracks due to privacy concerns or some body could find out about one's nice and quiet camping place. Questions about anonymizing gps data arise on the user mailing list form time to time. But in this case ppl. should respond different to questions about the source. Greetings Ray Craig wrote: Maybe there is something fundamental that I don't get, but, let me ask a question, please. How is it possible that a location of a road or building or anything can be copyrighted? I understand not copying entire maps, etc., from a source and then claiming it as your own is contrary to copyright, but facts, and a road location is a fact, not something created from someone's imagination. Google itself allows businesses to use tools to correct the location of that business if it is in error on Google's maps. Nobody is copying and distributing Google satellite images, nor are they distributing other Google properties. I think this worry about copyright violations is a knee-jerk reaction and would not stand up in a court of law. Big companies with big law firms backing them up is very intimidating, but that doesn't change the fact that you should be able to refer to a Google map or image to confirm a road location or other geographical entity. I see this as fair use. Also, thousands of people around the world have contributed to mapping for Google through efforts around the Haiti and Chile earthquakes. I'd say copyright is a bit dicey in that situation because Google only facilitated the mapping. Also, thousands upon thousands of buildings have been placed in Google Earth, thanks only to users like us. Myself, I have contributed mapping and 3D buildings. Is OSM open to the world? If it is, then Google can use OSM data. If Google sued OSM for improving maps using Google's data only to integrate that into their own products, that would be major hypocrisy. I'm sick of corporations creating this atmosphere of we're going to sue your asses off at the drop of a hat. It's a sad thing, and well-minded people like those contributing to a better world via OSM and other similar projects should not have the spectre of litigation hanging over their heads. ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] Bacolod is still a big problem
Hi Craig, I saw this question several times here and there and can not agree completely. I think that Facts/Locations can not be copyrighted indeed, but maps can. It takes quite a lot of work to represent the locations of items accurately on maps. It's much easier to copy from an existing map. (Why would some OSM mappers be tempted if this was not the case?) So it seems reasonable to me to protect this work by a copyright. When you copy from a map, even small portions, you don't copy facts, but a more or less faithful representation someone else made. If you copy Google maps, you even copying someone's imagination ! Here Google has several non existing roads on the map : http://sautter.com/map/?zoom=17lat=10.3468lon=123.91864layers=B0TF Even comparing just the location should not be done, since the map seems offset... The above is also true for the satellite images (although maybe less obviously). Several years ago, I saw a duplicate parallel road on the border of stitched images (Each of them ending in a blurry house on opposite sides at some distance). I was unable to find it now, but I'm sure you'll be able to find some artifacts if you look for them. Cheers, Totor --- On Sun, 5/16/10, Craig wrote: From: Craig Subject: Re: [talk-ph] Bacolod is still a big problem To: Andre Marcelo-Tanner Cc: talk-ph@openstreetmap.org Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010, 4:09 AM Maybe there is something fundamental that I don't get, but, let me ask a question, please. How is it possible that a location of a road or building or anything can be copyrighted? I understand not copying entire maps, etc., from a source and then claiming it as your own is contrary to copyright, but facts, and a road location is a fact, not something created from someone's imagination. [...] ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] Bacolod is still a big problem
Hi, everyone. Thank you for your comments. I do appreciate them all, and I respect you all for giving them freely. I will, of course, follow OSM guidelines to the letter, and will in no way jeopardize all of the hard work that has been done before my very recent arrival. I am, like many, simply frustrated at how copyright is used at a weapon and how it does, in fact, stifle creativity and advancements in many areas. You are all aware of this, of course. Best to you all, Craig. On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 5:11 AM, Totor totor_...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Craig, I saw this question several times here and there and can not agree completely. I think that Facts/Locations can not be copyrighted indeed, but maps can. It takes quite a lot of work to represent the locations of items accurately on maps. It's much easier to copy from an existing map. (Why would some OSM mappers be tempted if this was not the case?) So it seems reasonable to me to protect this work by a copyright. When you copy from a map, even small portions, you don't copy facts, but a more or less faithful representation someone else made. If you copy Google maps, you even copying someone's imagination ! Here Google has several non existing roads on the map : http://sautter.com/map/?zoom=17lat=10.3468lon=123.91864layers=B0TF Even comparing just the location should not be done, since the map seems offset... The above is also true for the satellite images (although maybe less obviously). Several years ago, I saw a duplicate parallel road on the border of stitched images (Each of them ending in a blurry house on opposite sides at some distance). I was unable to find it now, but I'm sure you'll be able to find some artifacts if you look for them. Cheers, Totor --- On *Sun, 5/16/10, Craig * wrote: From: Craig Subject: Re: [talk-ph] Bacolod is still a big problem To: Andre Marcelo-Tanner Cc: talk-ph@openstreetmap.org Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010, 4:09 AM Maybe there is something fundamental that I don't get, but, let me ask a question, please. How is it possible that a location of a road or building or anything can be copyrighted? I understand not copying entire maps, etc., from a source and then claiming it as your own is contrary to copyright, but facts, and a road location is a fact, not something created from someone's imagination. [...] ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [talk-ph] Bacolod is still a big problem
Many people already argued that copying from aerial imagery is not governed by copyright law. Case law proved it: http://www.systemed.net/blog/?p=100 However, Google terms of use explicitly do not allow this: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/2009/03/17/google-mapmaker-and-openstreetmap/ That said, I echo Eugene's statement. Do not test this slippery and complicated legal argument in OSM. We maybe impatient with the progress of OSM in many areas in the country. But in due time, we can get it done the OSM way. -- cheers, maning -- Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
[talk-ph] CloudMade Services Are Now Free
In case anyone here is interested to create revenues out of OSM data and clodmade services: http://blog.cloudmade.com/2010/05/16/cloudmade-services-are-now-free-%e2%80%93-sign-up-today/ The original post is inaccessible at the moment. Copy pasted the content here: CloudMade Services Are Now Free – Sign Up Today If you are a mobile or web developer – we have good news! As of today, when you sign up for a CloudMade developer account all of our services will be free of charge and will let you make money with location based advertising (LBA). CloudMade’s services include: * Style Editor – customize your maps * Forward and Reverse Geocoding Local Search * iPhone SDK and Mobile SDKs * Static Maps * Routing – vehicle, pedestrian and cycle navigation * Web Maps Studio * Data Market Place (some sets are now free) * Navi Studio – add fully featured turn-by-turn navigation apps Right after you sign up for a CloudMade developer account, you’ll also get LBA with revenue share and instant access to our 10,500-strong developer community to help you get started. To find out more about our mobile services and to sign up, click here. More about our web services can be found here. Already have an ad partner or want an SLA? Get CloudMade Select If you already have an ad partner and don’t want CloudMade ads in your app or you need an SLA then CloudMade Select is for you. By signing up to this plan developers get a whole host of additional benefits including: guaranteed response times for support; guaranteed SLA; HTTP services access; HTTPs/SSL (coming soon); support for intranet apps and no user limits. New Support Site Now Available We’ve also just launched a new support site that contains FAQs, Forums and Issue Trackers – everything you need to build awesome apps. -- cheers, maning -- Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ -- ___ talk-ph mailing list talk-ph@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
Re: [OSM-talk-be] CORINE Land Cover 2000
I fail to see why there would be a problem, legally, to import CORINE if the license is compatible. IGN/NGI would not be a party in this, as the EEA licenses CORINE. If it would be actually useful is another matter altogether. I think it would look nice on lower zoom levels, and could be useful as a starting point for individual mappers to improve upon, but more detailed data may already be available which would make a blanket import action undesirable. Martijn Martijn van Exel +++ m...@rtijn.org Laziness – Impatience – Hubris http://schaaltreinen.nl twitter: mvexel skype: mvexel flickr: rhodes On May 16, 2010, at 9:47 PM, Lennard wrote: As some of you may know, last year the French have imported the CORINE Land Cover 2006 (CLC 2006) dataset. This dataset aims to classify every bit of surface of the participating countries. It is a project of the European Environment Agency (EEA) in conjunction with national mapping agencies. For Belgium, I believe this would be the NGI/IGN. While they did get approval to import their CLC 2006 dataset, getting approval from the NGI/IGN in Belgium would probably be problematic, and actually getting the data from them even worse. Although, if we don't ask, we'll never know for sure. (Anyone up for contacting them?) However, the CLC 2000 dataset is fully available on the EEA website, and has usage terms that seem to be very compatible with OSM. Unless otherwise indicated, re-use of content on the EEA website for commercial or non-commercial purposes is permitted free of charge, provided that the source is acknowledged. On IRC, someone wanted to contact the EEA explicitly to obtain permission (for Belgium, but why not ask this for the entire dataset?). I don't see a problem with that, although for me the terms on the EEA site are clear. I have made an overlay which shows the CLC 2000 data on the OSM map: http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/~ldp/clc2000/ This is so you can already enjoy what we may be able to import, and maybe use it as a backdrop in Potlatch/JOSM or other editors to use. I don't recommend actually tracing the polygons, as a direct import is much easier. The amount of changes between CLC 2000 and CLC 2006 is on the order of 0.5% over the entire covered region. The overwhelming amount of polygons would be unchanged. I think there's not much harm in working with CLC 2000, even if it is 10+ years old. I have received the scripts used for the French CLC 2006 import, and can adapt and use those for an import of CLC 2000 for any area. I'm going to test them and prepare an import file for Belgium, which can be imported later on, if no valid objections are lodged. -- Lennard ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] CORINE Land Cover 2000
I know a former director at the Belgian IGN/ING who retired very recently. I'll call him to know how to proceed to have the best and most effective results. Could you please help me by writing all elements (in the OSM wiki) that could help to support the fact that IGN should release its data under a compatible with OSM licence eg. by doing like the UK of France ? (a one page summary of facts would be most welcome). Thanks, Nicolas -- Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc. April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - www.april.org ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] CORINE Land Cover 2000
On 16-5-2010 22:34, Renaud MICHEL wrote: Well, there's no harm in asking, but as you say it seems compatible with the actual CC-By-SA (but I have no idea for ODBL). I just learned the question went out, but we have not received an answer. That's not so strange, with Ascension Day and a weekend in between. It seems like a great idea, how does the import work? We have already some data imported in Belgium from the french import, will those regions need manual editing to integrate the two imports? Should we keep the landuse where they already exists in OSM belgium, or is the CORINE data much more accurate and should be preferred? The CORINE data is not that bad, but is slightly generalised in the sense that features smaller than 25 ha are not present, and are rolled up as part of a larger area. The way the import in France was done is to compare the CLC polygons to OSM polygons. Only CLC polygons with no overlap or a very small overlap to OSM polygons were automatically imported. The non-imported part of the dataset was then added to a web service, where each can select and export a non-imported polygon and add it to OSM themselves: http://clc.openstreetmap.fr/ -- Lennard ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] CORINE Land Cover 2000
On 16-5-2010 22:35, Martijn van Exel wrote: I fail to see why there would be a problem, legally, to import CORINE if the license is compatible. IGN/NGI would not be a party in this, as the EEA licenses CORINE. The NGI/IGN reference is for the CLC 2006 dataset specifically. The 2006 dataset is not publicly available from the EEA and has to be obtained through the participating national agencies. We already received permission to use the CLC 2006 dataset in The Netherlands, but we then have to buy the actual dataset. The point is moot, since we already have the much more detailed 3dShapes data. We can still use CLC (2000) to enrich 3dShapes classifications. For Belgium, it's different, and any broad addition of land cover to OSM would mostly be welcomed, I assume. If it would be actually useful is another matter altogether. I think it would look nice on lower zoom levels, and could be useful as a starting point for individual mappers to improve upon, but more detailed data may already be available which would make a blanket import action undesirable. That's why we're not aiming for a blanket import, but a directed (but still national) import. See my previous reply about the import method and the comparison to existing OSM polygons. -- Lennard ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] CORINE Land Cover 2000
On 16-5-2010 21:47, Lennard wrote: The amount of changes between CLC 2000 and CLC 2006 is on the order of 0.5% over the entire covered region. The overwhelming amount of polygons would be unchanged. I think there's not much harm in working with CLC 2000, even if it is 10+ years old. To follow up this part, a list of project details, including a contact person and the changes between CLC 1990 and CLC 2000. If we extrapolate the amount of changes for the 2000-2006 update, we can see that overall the 2000 data would still be pretty valid. http://etc-lusi.eionet.europa.eu/CLC2000/countries/be/full -- Lennard ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] CORINE Land Cover 2000
On 5/16/10, Martijn van Exel mve...@gmail.com wrote: If it would be actually useful is another matter altogether. I think it would look nice on lower zoom levels, and could be useful as a starting point for individual mappers to improve upon, but more detailed data may already be available which would make a blanket import action undesirable. That depends on the location of course. In areas where we have Yahoo imagery the existing landuse is usually much more detailed than Corine. Other areas, like the forests drawn in the Ardennes, are less accurate. And in many of those places we’d never be able to reach the accuracy of Corine without satellite images or other datasets. I also wonder whether it would be a good idea to delete some of the less detailed landuse polygons beforehand if the import goes ahead. Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk] is there an open database of places?
Patrick Aljord patcito at gmail.com writes: Hey all, . Would it make sense to have a seperate DB that would store all places? Is there already a project that does that? http://www.geonames.org/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin Maps
It might be worth looking at Maperitive, its new, in beta but does some very nice things like export bit map and a SVG export command is planned. The really nice thing is though that since it can work with either a local file (save an OSM file from JOSM) or on the web linked to the OSM database you get a lot more control over what is rendered and how it is rendered since the processing is done locally. So here in Canada I have it displaying the street names in French in a bilingual region. If it can be linked to the Garmins then you get control over which area you want, and just the area you want, at what level of detail and which brand of coffee shops you're most interested in. Cheerio John On 15 May 2010 22:13, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Sami Dalouche sko...@free.fr wrote: What I see is hundreds of small projects or individual people creating ... So, I am currently thinking of starting a complementary project to OSM See the problem here? IMHO if you want to put some effort into this, the best thing you could do would be to try and unite/combine/link/organise all those hundreds of small projects - rather than just start another one. My experience has been that for part of the world, there is a different project somewhere producing the maps you need. For example, in australia, it's really easy: http://www.osmaustralia.org/downloads.php In the case of Garmin, complication seems to also arise from the fact that earlier Garmins required special software (like Mapsource) to load the maps onto the device. Newer ones (like my Oregon 550) are trivial: simply download a .img file, and copy it into the right directory. So, I think there need to be more services of this kind: websites that regularly (eg, every week or more often) generate .img files of a given area, in a number of styles (eg, hiking, cycling, driving...) There is already a central registry of these kinds of sites: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin/Download But it could be improved. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Hi, Am 15.05.2010 22:15, schrieb Robert Martinez: This isn't a first draft - maybe there is room for changes if decision makers like an OSM design team (or similar) decide to use my contribution. p.s.: I think it is naive to think that it is possible to create a logo that everyone likes. Thu May 13 17:32:36 BST 2010 paul youlten wrote: Is there an OSM identity design brief or a decision making process for designers to look at? I added a draft for a decision table here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Foundation/Logo If the table is the cause for more conflict than it solves, well, then the table doesn't help:) Feel free to edit. Greetings, Frieder ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin Maps
This kind of project is definitely exciting ! However, I still think it is meant to be used by advanced users, and I would first like to focus on achieving the simple use case of loading the GPS with some data, without detailed control of the exact area nor the rendering. (I think it is reasonable to assume that someone is going to download the complete data for a given state even if he's only interested in part of it... ) So, I see this tool as another part of the toolkit that supports people's generation of new maps, that can then be aggregated on the user-centric website I am talking about. Am I wrong to assume this ? Sami On Sun, 2010-05-16 at 08:12 -0400, john whelan wrote: It might be worth looking at Maperitive, its new, in beta but does some very nice things like export bit map and a SVG export command is planned. The really nice thing is though that since it can work with either a local file (save an OSM file from JOSM) or on the web linked to the OSM database you get a lot more control over what is rendered and how it is rendered since the processing is done locally. So here in Canada I have it displaying the street names in French in a bilingual region. If it can be linked to the Garmins then you get control over which area you want, and just the area you want, at what level of detail and which brand of coffee shops you're most interested in. Cheerio John On 15 May 2010 22:13, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Sami Dalouche sko...@free.fr wrote: What I see is hundreds of small projects or individual people creating ... So, I am currently thinking of starting a complementary project to OSM See the problem here? IMHO if you want to put some effort into this, the best thing you could do would be to try and unite/combine/link/organise all those hundreds of small projects - rather than just start another one. My experience has been that for part of the world, there is a different project somewhere producing the maps you need. For example, in australia, it's really easy: http://www.osmaustralia.org/downloads.php In the case of Garmin, complication seems to also arise from the fact that earlier Garmins required special software (like Mapsource) to load the maps onto the device. Newer ones (like my Oregon 550) are trivial: simply download a .img file, and copy it into the right directory. So, I think there need to be more services of this kind: websites that regularly (eg, every week or more often) generate .img files of a given area, in a number of styles (eg, hiking, cycling, driving...) There is already a central registry of these kinds of sites: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin/Download But it could be improved. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin Maps
Hi, OSMAustralia is awesome, and it's exactly the kind of simple user-centric website that I think is useful for end-users. However, I am not sure of what are you suggesting me. How do you see uniting/combining/linking/organizing all those hundreds of small projects without creating a new fresh repository ? In any case, we're on the same track here. I do not want to duplicate any effort, and do not feel like developing the NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrom. Sami On Sun, 2010-05-16 at 12:13 +1000, Steve Bennett wrote: On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Sami Dalouche sko...@free.fr wrote: What I see is hundreds of small projects or individual people creating ... So, I am currently thinking of starting a complementary project to OSM See the problem here? IMHO if you want to put some effort into this, the best thing you could do would be to try and unite/combine/link/organise all those hundreds of small projects - rather than just start another one. My experience has been that for part of the world, there is a different project somewhere producing the maps you need. For example, in australia, it's really easy: http://www.osmaustralia.org/downloads.php In the case of Garmin, complication seems to also arise from the fact that earlier Garmins required special software (like Mapsource) to load the maps onto the device. Newer ones (like my Oregon 550) are trivial: simply download a .img file, and copy it into the right directory. So, I think there need to be more services of this kind: websites that regularly (eg, every week or more often) generate .img files of a given area, in a number of styles (eg, hiking, cycling, driving...) There is already a central registry of these kinds of sites: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Map_On_Garmin/Download But it could be improved. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin Maps
On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 18:53 -0700, Sam Vekemans wrote: Hi, On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 5:48 PM, Sami Dalouche sko...@free.fr wrote: snip So, if you already have all the rendering machinery in place, I would be happy to create the scripts to regularly go fetch the maps you render and publish them onto some kind of user-centric website. That would be awesome ! sami Yup it would :) ... yes they are routable, and your talking about 2 different countries and 3 different states, and cycling / hiking / routing / contour (topographical) which cover a big area. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=43.41lon=-74.69zoom=7layers=B000FTFT (zoom in to where you like and click the Permalink button at the bottom right corner) http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.1481lon=-71.6721zoom=13layers=B000FTF is an example of an area that is of interest to me. However, as I prefer simplicity of use over complete control, I prefer loading a 4GB SD card with the whole area I am possibly interested in (let's say, new england + NY + quebec), and then forget about it. Are you saying that it is an unreasonable use case ? Contour + Hiking map/cycling - non-routable on MapSource is possable hiking + routable (no contours on MapSource) is possable. routable + contours on MapSource is not possable (because of licence proprietary software) When you say possible/impossible on MapSource, do you mean technically possible/impossible using Garmin's .img format ? What is the licensing problem that prevents creating routable + contour maps ? However, transparent contour IMG files (that i'm making) can be used as a background map (And a contour -only MapSource Installer and/or as available IMG tiles., for any map that you want. (is also in progress) I'm sorry I'm not yet familiar with the GPS I just got, but please let me rephrase that so I am sure to understand : it is impossible to create a contour + routable + hiking on garmin, but you are circomventing this limitation by generating an additional transparent background map that can be overlaid on top of any other map, including hiking+routable. Is that what you mean ? Also, I wonder : what is the difference between the contour map that you talk about and garmin's official topographic maps ? Do the topographic map contain more information than the contour ? Yup, Slowly but surely, this is the goal todo. In order to get to that point, there is a WHOLE LOT of technical process that needs to be done. No doubt about that ;) The beauty of software development ;-) To talk@ osm: In other words, I just need to get a .nsis script file created using ground truth, (just like makemap has). I can do that myself with an .iss file, but it will stall is not automatic, other than that were set on the back-end side. For the front-end. I have it set to edting a txt file. and following dos command prompts. But thats as technical as i know how. ( Because it is using outside programs, the details i'll post on a blog or something) Cheers, Sam Regards, Sami ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] is there an open database of places?
Please note that there is a project called Gisgraphy : http://www.gisgraphy.com/ It already provides importers for Geonames data, as well as a REST API to access it. I am currently creating a java client for this (http://github.com/samokk/gisgraphy-java-client ), but it is still not really useable. Slowly, but surely :) sami On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 22:44 +, Jukka Rahkonen wrote: Patrick Aljord patcito at gmail.com writes: Hey all, . Would it make sense to have a seperate DB that would store all places? Is there already a project that does that? http://www.geonames.org/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Help to import Rio de Janeiro city data to O SM - misaligned shapefiles
Arlindo Pereira openstreetmap at arlindopereira.com writes: ... Now, moving on to the second question: the largest shapefile (Quadras.shp, with the streets and the blocks) has 68 MB, and after conversion (and two hours later) it becomes a huge 416 MB .osm file, and I can't open it with JOSM (ok, after half an hour it loads up on the editor but I can't do anything because the program freezes). How can I split it in smaller files for an easier edition? One possibility is to edit the shapefile with some GIS program like OpenJUMP or QGis, select features from a smaller area and save that part to a new shapefile. That way you could also select only some kind of features to import, or cut off those you do not want at all. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] older GPS Tracks not displaying in Potlatch
Hi Older gps traces (10 months+) don't appear to be displaying when I click on The Icon (G) in Potlatch. They're still listed in GPS Traces are PUBLIC. Is there a time limit for their visibility? Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On 05/16/2010 02:40 PM, Frieder Ferlemann wrote: I added a draft for a decision table here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Foundation/Logo If the table is the cause for more conflict than it solves, well, then the table doesn't help:) Feel free to edit. Greetings, Frieder ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Hello Frieder, I have mixed feelings about this table and the wikipage: * it is a good instrument to guide non-designer people to make better decisions (instead of having endless discussions with a crappy logo as a result) * it is NOT an instrument that can claim to be a recipe for the best logo, every designer would weight different things and include/exclude certain things for valid reasons. I for example would have reservations about the equal importance of the Vision parts: idea of a map, world-wide, freedom, collaboration, versatility, growth, reliability, huge, participation, eye-catcher, not user group specific, not specific to shop owners + car navigation, internationalism * it unfolds its full potential if there are many good contributions that qualify for a good logo I'm profoundly sure that the involvement of non-designers in this issue should be to vote on something like a top 3 logo list (not be defined by: the best three there are but by: 3 good logos)! And the problem is: there are way too few submissions that would score high enough in your table. So in my eyes it boils down to one solution to this problem (as well as branding and design issues in general): There has to be a design department for OSM with authority and competence, and I think this table is a bad workaround for that at best. My conclusion is a plea to the project management: please try to find a capable design team as soon as you can! You won't get satisfying results in the long run if there are no such team. In the meantime I suggest (with grinding teeth) using the table to get a result. Robert Martinez ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Hi, Frieder Ferlemann wrote: I added a draft for a decision table here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Foundation/Logo If the table is the cause for more conflict than it solves, well, then the table doesn't help:) Feel free to edit. What logo are we talking about? I understand that Robert's submission was for an OSM logo, while the page you have now edited is about the OSMF logo. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Robert, Robert Martinez wrote: There has to be a design department for OSM with authority and competence [...] My conclusion is a plea to the project management: please try to find a capable design team as soon as you can! Do you know *anything* about OSM at all? Do you have *any* knowledge of, or respect for, how the project works? There are no departments with authority and no desire to create them; there is no project management. How can you even think about designing a logo for a project of which you understand so little? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On May 16, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Robert, Robert Martinez wrote: There has to be a design department for OSM with authority and competence [...] My conclusion is a plea to the project management: please try to find a capable design team as soon as you can! Do you know *anything* about OSM at all? Do you have *any* knowledge of, or respect for, how the project works? There are no departments with authority and no desire to create them; there is no project management. How can you even think about designing a logo for a project of which you understand so little? He's just pointing out what I did a few months back - the design, usability and aesthetic of OSM is a big mess. My vote is that we just put him in charge of fixing it, but I don't really want another fight with all of those who know little about, er, design, usability or aesthetic. If we spent 10% of the time that's gone in to making the map call C++ or making potlatch look like Windows 3.1 instead of looking like Windows 3.0... on just turning over some of these aspects to a design czar, it would have a much, much larger effect on bounce rate, data entered, project visibility, user happiness... And yes I know what I wrote on the wiki about JFDI back in 1987 or whatever. But we have these walls that we didn't have then. If you want to get a sweeping design done it will take a herculean effort because there's so much fight on this list on even whether good design is a good thing, or whether more users is a good thing, or you have to write everything the 'right' way... and you, Frederik jump on the guy because he doesn't know much about the project? That's actually a pretty good thing. He doesn't know he has to be friends with Tom to get something deployed, he doesn't know he'll have to fight Matt being defensive about his logo, he doesn't know all the political shit that is getting in the way of moving forward in a meaningful way. If he did know all this, I suspect he would go and do something useful with his life instead of wasting it here. It's not even that any of the above is bad - it's great that the map call is now constant memory or whatever (thanks to matt?), it's awesome that Tom is guardian to a set of stable servers and he holds that key so judiciously, but we have to realise too what barriers this throws up to innovation, and try and get out of the way when necessary. So, Robert Martinez, I salute you for pushing on. Things have gotten old and crusty here, and it needs some designers with their heads screwed on. Nobody means to me horrible to you, it's just the tone of the list sometimes and people don't like change. If you want some real fun go read the legal list archives and look how long it takes to make anything happen. And you can squabble all you want people, but in the mean time waze is kicking our ass. I wonder how many Frederik's they have at waze writing essays on why design is bad and we don't need new users. Oh, I guess I do want this fight again. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclopath wiki bicycle map
Steve Bennett wrote: On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 5:34 AM, Reid Priedhorsky r...@umn.edu wrote: Anyway, I mostly wanted to say hi and let you all know we are here. If you have any questions, ask and I will reply here on the list. Hi Reid. Just wondering if/when this project will expand outside Minnesota? Also, and I haven't really been following this thread, how does it integrate with OSM, and could it integrate better? Seems a pity to collect information twice... Hi Steve, Short answer, we have active plans to expand and should have some news within the next few weeks. The model we are following is the Craigslist island model, i.e. focusing on adding metro areas and regions one by one (as opposed to expanding in a big circle from Minneapolis). Currently, we do not integrate with OSM at all, and I agree with you. In terms of data sharing OSM to Cyclopath, we are leery of the OSM licensing mess and hesitate to get involved. The other way round would work fine (a previous poster gave our data license as CC, but actually we have broad freedom to share the data under general openness goals). I'd also be interested in how we might move towards sharing tool chains and things. I believe the key issues here might be data complexity (we have a lot more types of features and relationships than just ways) and all the fiddly little choices that are made differently between two independent projects. Reid ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On 05/16/2010 06:35 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Robert, Robert Martinez wrote: There has to be a design department for OSM with authority and competence [...] My conclusion is a plea to the project management: please try to find a capable design team as soon as you can! Do you know *anything* about OSM at all? Do you have *any* knowledge of, or respect for, how the project works? Did I really offend you by assuming that there are certain aspects of the project that get decided not by pure democracy? Aren't there any people good at special fields like handling tile rendering, or traffic balancing or editor development etc.? I must admit I'm not an active contributor in any of those kinds - but I must say I'm a bit offended myself that you assume I know nothing about the project and act respectless, just because I think it is a good Idea to have some people that are specialized in design. I'm offering a contribution after all! Please respect that, too. There are no departments with authority and no desire to create them; there is no project management. How can you even think about designing a logo for a project of which you understand so little? To be honest: my first impression of the current logo drove me to the guess that there is no design team, so that's not big news for me. (Btw: if you read my initial mail - why didn't you make that clear earlier?) You seem to be involved enough to help me out here: In case there really IS NO hierarchy whatsoever other than Steve Coast and the rest - there is no problem! If the community should decide: fine! I already agreed on using the logo-rating-table (if there really is no better solution). Or maybe I can even come to Girona, too, and share my thoughts there (but that's not the complete community that decides and it is not sure I can get there) But If there IS actually a decision hierarchy - who is deciding: when (or if) to announce a logo contest? who decides on the guidelines? who decides when there are enough submissions? who is the jury (mailing list - wiki - a web-poll - voting in Girona - ...)? Always glad to hear other voices on the issue, too. Bye Robert Martinez ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Hi Frederik, Am 16.05.2010 18:33, schrieb Frederik Ramm: I added a draft for a decision table here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Foundation/Logo If the table is the cause for more conflict than it solves, well, then the table doesn't help:) Feel free to edit. What logo are we talking about? I understand that Robert's submission was for an OSM logo, while the page you have now edited is about the OSMF logo. I meant to contribute to Robert's submission for an OSM logo. The link given in: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2010-May/050188.html on my first uneducated view seemed to show relevant context, so I added the table there. Also it seemed polite because I picked up the items from the user Kscahefer. I'll happily move it elsewhere. If need arises I also have a very capable /dev/null here. Seems to take data at a rate of more than 1 GB/sec and is not full yet. Kidding aside I like the idea of a wiki because (opposed to mail or forums) it tends to focus discussion because technically there is a single document being worked on. (there are of course numerous examples that using a wiki is no guarantee for consensus) Robert Martinez wrote: I for example would have reservations about the equal importance of the Vision parts: [..] I have too. Nor are the criteria likely complete (or orthogonal). I have no stakes in the decision other than that it should be fair and does not absorb much unneeded voluntary work. Greetings, Frieder ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin Maps
On 05/16/2010 01:57 AM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: Yes, such a project would be useful. I suggest you get in contact with some of the people already running something similar, e.g.: http://garmin.na1400.info/routable.php That project has selectable maps, a mapsource installer and more. Presumably it could use some programming help to perhaps make custom maps. I would like that to happen (users choosing their own product id, add contours, prefer cycling or car etc) but the server is already overloaded and there is just no chance that more functionality could be added. So, that's left to others (and there are plenty of others already). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
He's just pointing out what I did a few months back - the design, usability and aesthetic of OSM is a big mess. My vote is that we just put him in charge of fixing it, but I don't really want another fight with all of those who know little about, er, design, usability or aesthetic. If we spent 10% of the time that's gone in to making the map call C++ or making potlatch look like Windows 3.1 instead of looking like Windows 3.0... on just turning over some of these aspects to a design czar, it would have a much, much larger effect on bounce rate, data entered, project visibility, user happiness... Perhaps I am too much of a geek my self, but I some how can't see changing a logo or design will get us masses of new users. Not with all the other usability issues still present. At least I can't remember the last time I though: Oh, this is a really amazing project! The best thing ever. But given the logo isn't quite ideal, I am not going to contribute to the project That doesn't mean that changing the logo might not be a bad idea or that the current logo is perfect. I just don't think that the _logo_ is a particularly pressing matter and thus does have the time to go through a larger (and admittedly slow and painful) community process to see what the best solution is and if it is worth giving up the current logo and loosing the associated corporate branding And yes I know what I wrote on the wiki about JFDI back in 1987 or whatever. But we have these walls that we didn't have then. If you want to get a sweeping design done it will take a herculean effort because there's so much fight on this list on even whether good design is a good thing, or whether more users is a good thing, or you have to write everything the 'right' way... and you, Frederik jump on the guy because he doesn't know much about the project? That's actually a pretty good thing. He doesn't know he has to be friends with Tom to get something deployed, he doesn't know he'll have to fight Matt being defensive about his logo, he doesn't know all the political shit that is getting in the way of moving forward in a meaningful way. I would suggest to anyone who does care about usability (and I hope people do), to look at the wiki. Imho the front page still has a reasonable clean design and appropriate amount of information, but already the next link down it rapidly degrades in quality to not really being usable any more. For example I would guess one of the first links a new user would click on is the Beginners Guide, probably in the expectation to find out what the project is about, what they can do with it, why they personally would benefit from the project and how they can then contribute back. However, what they are presented on the English version is let's say less than ideal. Neither does it explain the project as a whole particularly well, nor does it link to all the wonderful wealth of resources available that make OSM a great ecosystem and give plentiful reasons to put in the effort to overcome the learning curve inherent in OSM. In fact it doesn't even really achieve the one thing it does try to do which is to give an easy introduction to editing in OSM in any way a newbie would feel comfortable with. On top its design is I think fair to say even worse than that of the logo or the front page. (without wanting to offend the people who have contributed to the beginners guide so far). Other pages linked from the main wiki not addressing power mappers aren't often any better. There, we really could use some great designers, marketing and PR folk, journalists or who ever else feels up to the task of presenting OSM to the newbie in an appealing and accurate way to make sure they understand how the project works and how they can contribute. And the best thing is, it is a wiki! So you don't need to be friends with TomH to get it deployed, or argue with Matt about the logo, or RichardF about what the best language is to write Potlatch in or... You can just do it and you are much more likely to get the gratitude of all if you do. (Well, perhaps you need to be friends with Grant if things get out of hand to make sure he locks down the wiki page at the right time ;-)) But I really doubt there will be a big edit war on the wiki given the current state of affairs with respect to our beginners documentation! So, Robert Martinez, I salute you for pushing on. Things have gotten old and crusty here, and it needs some designers with their heads screwed on. Nobody means to me horrible to you, it's just the tone of the list sometimes and people don't like change. If you want some real fun go read the legal list archives and look how long it takes to make anything happen. Well perhaps a large crowd sourced project isn't the best platform if you want revolutionary change. If there isn't an absolute necessity for a step change, you are best off with small incremental changes in the right direction. (Just like you don't go into a country
Re: [OSM-talk] older GPS Tracks not displaying in Potlatch
Dave F. wrote: Older gps traces (10 months+) don't appear to be displaying when I click on The Icon (G) in Potlatch. They're still listed in GPS Traces are PUBLIC. Is there a time limit for their visibility? Potlatch pulls them down 10k (IIRC) at once to avoid boggling the server too much. If you click the icon again (without having panned away) it'll load the next 10k, and so on and so forth. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/older-GPS-Tracks-not-displaying-in-Potlatch-tp5061899p5062630.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Steve, SteveC wrote: He's just pointing out what I did a few months back - the design, usability and aesthetic of OSM is a big mess. My vote is that we just put him in charge of fixing it You want someone to fix the OSM design and usability whose main area of competence seems to be making aesthetically pleasing logos? Who would not hesitate to use a logo for OSM that suggests to the world that the essence of OSM is collecting POIs, just because it works better as a logo (and perhaps because he couldn't be bothered to find out exactly what OSM is about)? He doesn't know he has to be friends with Tom to get something deployed, he doesn't know he'll have to fight Matt being defensive about his logo, he doesn't know all the political shit that is getting in the way of moving forward in a meaningful way. Oh right, and the proper way to deal with a situation like this is to install a czar so that in the future, anyone who wants to get something going does not only have to jump through all the hoops you mention but *additionally* has to be friends with the design czar? If he did know all this, I suspect he would go and do something useful with his life instead of wasting it here. Let's not blow this out of proportion. I know that redesigning the OSM start page, and possibly anything else after that, has been your pet peeve for the last I don't know how many years. But this thread, until now, was *not* about redesigning the OSM start page, or about usability, or a design review, or whatever. This is about someone parachuting in, designing a logo with *no* heart, *no* soul, *no* character, that does not in the least convey what OSM is about, that looks like it comes straight from a clip-art collection (section geo things), and having the chutzpah to tell us he had somehow reduced the logo to the essence. If the same methodology was to be applied to redesigning the project then why not change our main page to look like that of Twitter, after all Twitter is a big UI success and their page sure works as a webpage. Never mind that we're trying to do different things here. So, Robert Martinez, I salute you for pushing on. Things have gotten old and crusty here, and it needs some designers with their heads screwed on. Nobody means to me horrible to you, it's just the tone of the list sometimes and people don't like change. I'm sure there are people on this list who don't like change; personally, I would appreciate a better logo. This logo, however, is not better, and that's all I have said. About your things have gotten old an crusty - do you remember how many million times in the API 0.3 or 0.4 days we had some GIS acolyte parachuting in and treating us like idiots because we weren't using PostGIS but MySQL instead? Did we welcome them with open arms and say Hallelujah, finally someone who brings change? - No, we said Implement it and we'll consider. We finally did get rid of MySQL but, as far as I remember, it was not the work of one of these people who, upon finding out that it perhaps was not so easy as they first thought, went on to be the messiah to someone else. And you can squabble all you want people, but in the mean time waze is kicking our ass. I wonder how many Frederik's they have at waze writing essays on why design is bad and we don't need new users. Oh, I guess I do want this fight again. Then do me a favour and pick what you want to fight about. I see four interwoven messages here: 1. Robert's suggestion for a new logo. I do not like it. You didn't even say whether you like it or not. Is this the fight you want, then tell us why you think his logo is better than the one we have. 2. Your desire to renovate the OSM user interface, or perhaps more: The OSM user experience altogether. My personal take on this is that yes, we could do a lot to improve it, but we haven't (yet) got the right people to do it. They will eventually come and find a way to evolve things, rather than just dumping everything we have and having some guru make it better. - You have tried to pioneer this cause a number of times, but you more often than not did it in a clumsy fashion, stepping on the toes of as many people as possible in the process, and then wondering why you caught flak. I'm sure this will sooner or later be addressed by a team of level-headed people who do their work well and easily manage to convince others that it is good, rather than some ex-cathedra czar decision which is not to be questioned. 3. A good user interface, obviously, must be based on knowing what one wants to achieve. I can see a possible fight here as well; my position has always been that growth for growth's sake may harm the project and we are right to take it slow. A slick UI is fine but if we attract people who don't possess the intellectual capacity and patience to be a working member of this community, we could just as well buy data from somewhere. Is this
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On May 16, 2010, at 1:58 PM, Kai Krueger wrote: He's just pointing out what I did a few months back - the design, usability and aesthetic of OSM is a big mess. My vote is that we just put him in charge of fixing it, but I don't really want another fight with all of those who know little about, er, design, usability or aesthetic. If we spent 10% of the time that's gone in to making the map call C++ or making potlatch look like Windows 3.1 instead of looking like Windows 3.0... on just turning over some of these aspects to a design czar, it would have a much, much larger effect on bounce rate, data entered, project visibility, user happiness... Perhaps I am too much of a geek my self, but I some how can't see changing a logo or design will get us masses of new users. It helps to read what I wrote: the design, usability and aesthetic of OSM is a big mess. I didn't just say the design. That's just symptomatic. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions (was: new logo)
Hi, Kai Krueger wrote: There, we really could use some great designers, marketing and PR folk, journalists or who ever else feels up to the task of presenting OSM to the newbie in an appealing and accurate way to make sure they understand how the project works and how they can contribute. And the best thing is, it is a wiki! So you don't need to be friends with TomH to get it deployed, or argue with Matt about the logo, or RichardF about what the best language is to write Potlatch in or... You can just do it and you are much more likely to get the gratitude of all if you do. I think there's a problem - the gratitude. I think that people, at least if they have a reasonably sized ego, are more likely to embark on something like complete front page re-design (let's make it a project, let's have a project manager, let's do it big, let's give it a name, and later everone says that YOU were the visionary who pulled it off) than a meagre editing of Wiki pages. Not only are you not placed on a pedestal when you do lots of work on the Wiki; there may even be others who ruin all your good work by adding their own ;-) Maybe we could find a way to make contributing to the Wiki a bit more interesting to people with ego. Have lists of top contributors (perhaps per language) and number of edits in a given timeframe, just as we have for API changes. Give them stars and badges and stuff. I'm sure Wikipedia has something we can learn from in this respect? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions (was: new logo)
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 10:42 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: for API changes. Give them stars and badges and stuff. I'm sure Wikipedia has something we can learn from in this respect? Great Idea, here is my suggestion http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:H4ck3rm1k3/OSMBarnStarIdea I think you deserve one.! let me look up the cheesy text : [image: OSMBarnStarProposal001.png] For many contributions to OSM and tireless help and contributions, I present you with this Opensteetmap Barnstar. Considering how much work and code an data you contribute, you deserve it! James Michael DuPont 23:06, 16 May 2010 (UTC) heheheh, mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions (was: new logo)
Outdated and not used for a while... http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Awards On 16 May 2010 22:02, jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote: On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 10:42 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.orgwrote: for API changes. Give them stars and badges and stuff. I'm sure Wikipedia has something we can learn from in this respect? Great Idea, here is my suggestion http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:H4ck3rm1k3/OSMBarnStarIdea I think you deserve one.! let me look up the cheesy text : [image: OSMBarnStarProposal001.png] For many contributions to OSM and tireless help and contributions, I present you with this Opensteetmap Barnstar. Considering how much work and code an data you contribute, you deserve it! James Michael DuPont 23:06, 16 May 2010 (UTC) heheheh, mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On May 16, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: About your things have gotten old an crusty - do you remember how many million times in the API 0.3 or 0.4 days we had some GIS acolyte parachuting in and treating us like idiots because we weren't using PostGIS but MySQL instead? Did we welcome them with open arms and say Hallelujah, finally someone who brings change? - No, we said Implement it and we'll consider. We finally did get rid of MySQL but, as far as I remember, it was not the work of one of these people who, upon finding out that it perhaps was not so easy as they first thought, went on to be the messiah to someone else. There are major differences, you can't conflate the two. * This guy actually did something, not just waffle about PostGIS * Our 'consideration' of his work is 'you arent part of the project' which is not actually a logical argument. Some of your personal opinions on whether it looks like clipart are actually more useful. * People waffled about PostGIS and ontologies because it's what they were taught to do in GIS, not because they had valid reasons that the tradeoffs were better or something once you took in to account speed or community uptake. I'll go back to what I said ages ago about law. There are just some domains that you can't expect that your CompSci knowledge will make you ready for. You might read a Copyright law and be clueless about case law in the same way that you're welcome to read a Tufte book, and still not have a clue how to make a site usable. It takes a long, long time to figure this stuff out. I don't think you can point to a single FLOSS project which did 'design by committee' well? That's why I say we need a czar. That's why I think Shuttleworth is right to ignore people and push on with a design vision, why Ive works at Apple. You can't get a wholistic experience by just copying the shiny buttons and drop shadows off the mac UI. It needs a one-minded driving push to make something like that work. I think we should probably vote that person in. But sitting around saying it looks like clipart gets us utterly nowhere. All that does is piss the guy off, and he clearly knows a lot more design than you or I do, or are likely to know. We should welcome him, say cool - here are the tools, you show us the way, but we have some concerns a,b,c,d...x. And you have to accept that not all of your concerns are going to be fixed, just like with the license process. Because design by committee just doesn't work. But instead, he gets told it's just crappy clip art and he hasn't paid his respects by learning `git` yet to be considered part of the community. Come on. That's totally bonkers. Why in their right mind would anyone good at design want to help us? And you can squabble all you want people, but in the mean time waze is kicking our ass. I wonder how many Frederik's they have at waze writing essays on why design is bad and we don't need new users. Oh, I guess I do want this fight again. Then do me a favour and pick what you want to fight about. I see four interwoven messages here: 1. Robert's suggestion for a new logo. I do not like it. You didn't even say whether you like it or not. Is this the fight you want, then tell us why you think his logo is better than the one we have. First, I don't want best to be the enemy of the good or better. The current logo is ok, it can be improved as has been pointed out. Is anyone screaming to get a change pushed through with the current logo? No. Nobody is doing that. Instead you do have this guy. Therefore, a better logo now is more useful than a perfect logo in 2014. As for why this is better, anyone who has printed t-shirts, conference material or worked in branding will tell you, as I already have that the current logo: * has too many colours * doesn't scale * is too busy * isn't brandable to a colour scheme This isn't opinion, it's just basic design facts. Now, this guy comes along and wants to make things better - cool! Let him have at it I say, because it's not like we need to stick with his logo if we choose forever, is it? It's not like we can't ask him to come back with a bunch of alternative designs, is it? I would love to avoid starting a sub-committee to look at design and have a bunch of morons attack it with pot shots like what the LWG has had to wade through for 2 years before anything happens. Crowd sourced open projects are fantastic at some things, but UI and design just isn't one of them. I say we just recognise that, and give someone a chance to work on it. 2. Your desire to renovate the OSM user interface, or perhaps more: The OSM user experience altogether. My personal take on this is that yes, we could do a lot to improve it, but we haven't (yet) got the right people to do it. They will eventually come and find a way to evolve things, rather than just dumping everything we have and having some guru make it better. -
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions (was: new logo)
On May 16, 2010, at 2:42 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, Kai Krueger wrote: There, we really could use some great designers, marketing and PR folk, journalists or who ever else feels up to the task of presenting OSM to the newbie in an appealing and accurate way to make sure they understand how the project works and how they can contribute. And the best thing is, it is a wiki! So you don't need to be friends with TomH to get it deployed, or argue with Matt about the logo, or RichardF about what the best language is to write Potlatch in or... You can just do it and you are much more likely to get the gratitude of all if you do. I think there's a problem - the gratitude. I think that people, at least if they have a reasonably sized ego, are more likely to embark on something like complete front page re-design (let's make it a project, let's have a project manager, let's do it big, let's give it a name, and later everone says that YOU were the visionary who pulled it off) than a meagre editing of Wiki pages. Not really - it's that small changes are not going to get very far. You're not going to make the buttons shiny and increase usability, or move a paragraph to the left not right or something. OSM's design is stuck at or near a local optimum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_optimum Only a large scale change is going to fix that, bar a few things that you've already shot down like having a feedback tab. Something so obvious and easy to do that I've been asked multiple times why on Earth we haven't done it. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions
Hi, SteveC wrote: Only a large scale change is going to fix that, bar a few things that you've already shot down like having a feedback tab. Something so obvious and easy to do that I've been asked multiple times why on Earth we haven't done it. As you surely have been told already, a feedback tab needs people to process the feedback otherwise it will just annoy everyone. Has a solution to this been proposed? The last time you suggested a feedback tab was by hooking up OSM to some third-party service where people would have been able to add comments using a completely different user interface. I didn't think that was a good idea, and if my voice was instrumental in shooting down that idea then I am awed by my own power. I don't think that an a patch for the rails port which lets people add feedback would be difficult to do (now that TomH has spam under control). I would be the last person to oppose it, provided that it is halfway clear what happens with the stuff people write on it. After all we don't want to set up a corporate customer service department full of drones that send preformatted text messages back to everyone, or do we? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions
See this is what I'm talking about. Why not instead of listing your reasons why it would be impossible, why don't you say I don't know steve, it might work, let's try it for a week and see what happens? If you say that you will be my hero, I'll send you a I love you bean and give you a big kiss on stage at SOTM. How about it? Yours c. Steve On May 16, 2010, at 4:59 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, SteveC wrote: Only a large scale change is going to fix that, bar a few things that you've already shot down like having a feedback tab. Something so obvious and easy to do that I've been asked multiple times why on Earth we haven't done it. As you surely have been told already, a feedback tab needs people to process the feedback otherwise it will just annoy everyone. Has a solution to this been proposed? The last time you suggested a feedback tab was by hooking up OSM to some third-party service where people would have been able to add comments using a completely different user interface. I didn't think that was a good idea, and if my voice was instrumental in shooting down that idea then I am awed by my own power. I don't think that an a patch for the rails port which lets people add feedback would be difficult to do (now that TomH has spam under control). I would be the last person to oppose it, provided that it is halfway clear what happens with the stuff people write on it. After all we don't want to set up a corporate customer service department full of drones that send preformatted text messages back to everyone, or do we? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On May 16, 2010, at 4:51 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Time for a data model czar and throw away all this backward looking shit of tagging freedom? Well if you think about it Frederik, I was the data model czar. You mean that to keep pace with Waze and Google Map Maker, we should simply drop the libertarian bullshit and become just another company with top-down decision making and a marketing department that does whatever seems best? Just because others manage abuse their community by taking their work and giving them nothing in return, save perhaps for a few stars in a ranking list, we should try to pull off the same? For fscks sake Frederik, I didn't say anything about dropping any of our good stuff like community or data model or open sourceness. It's really simple - they have a nicer website, they have nicer tools, they have more users than we do (3 times as many) in a fraction of the time and they're far, far better at creating and managing a community of users that we're only starting to get to grips with. All you do is scare them away. And I sense you're pushing against it all because of your idea of what a community should look like, and it's just going to be a cul-de-sac if we insist on all this stuff because the people who want to contribute these days are a whole different crowd that people like waze are much better at helping. And it should be _us_ at the forefront not them! To me, someone contributing to TomTom MapShare or Waze or Google Map Maker or any other we-own-all-your-work project is just a cow being milked. Old-fashioned world view maybe, but this is the one point were personally I am totally, absolutely unwilling to move. It is absolutely clear to me that there's a giant gap between what we are doing and what they are doing. We treat our community with respect because we're in this together; they do it for their, or their shareholders', monetary gain. For them, it is a fucking *job*. I am not even willing to compare. Did I say anywhere 'treat them like a cow' or anything like that? For the 4th time, I like waze's design and a bunch of stuff they've done. That doesn't mean I like closed data, or something, or that they're perfect. Here's the important bit: You have to get it in to your head Frederik that my mum (to pick an example) wants to contribute to OSM, and she doesn't want to jump through all the hoops you did to do so. She wants to facebook friend us. She wants to be appreciated on twitter. She wants a simple feedback button. Learning JOSM isn't an option. Learning potlatch isn't. Maybe, maybe, learning mapzen POI editor is. Probably not even something like mapmaker. And all you can say is fuck off we don't want you is *incredibly* backward, and holding back the project. (surely this thread is that introduction) before he can have an opinion about the logo. And frankly, like balancing a lawyers opinion vs. your legal opinion and a designers opinion vs your clipart comments, I'm going to pick the lawyer and the designer. For someone so bright why you can't see your own limitations is baffling to me. As I tried to explain above, his work did not meet what I would expect from a professional designer. I am speaking as one - tiny - part of this designer's client, OSM. With a - big - mouth. Speaking of being baffled, I am slightly surprised that you seem to be so happy with this mediocre logo. I'm not - but it is better than what we have now. And like I said, I'm more interested in fixing this fucked up process where whenever someone tries something a small band don't like, they get shat all over. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On 05/17/2010 12:51 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Steve, SteveC wrote: I think we should probably vote that person in. But sitting around saying it looks like clipart gets us utterly nowhere. All that does is piss the guy off, and he clearly knows a lot more design than you or I do, or are likely to know. We should welcome him, say cool - here are the tools, you show us the way, but we have some concerns a,b,c,d...x. And you have to accept that not all of your concerns are going to be fixed, just like with the license process. Because design by committee just doesn't work. But instead, he gets told it's just crappy clip art and he hasn't paid his respects by learning `git` yet to be considered part of the community. Come on. That's totally bonkers. Now I don't know the background of this. Maybe someone has talked to him and told him we desperately needed a new logo or so. Maybe that someone has worked with Robert in the past and knows he's a good designer. I have only judged what he has submitted to the list, and from this I cannot say that he cleary knows a lot more design than you or I. I think the logo is executed well enough, i.e. he clearly knows his Inkscape or whatever, but to me a good design process would also mean to - and these are Robert's words - capture the essence and convey it. And this is precisely what the logo does not do. Feedback in this direction came from me and others, and the replies that Robert had to offer were (1) the current logo isn't any better, and (2) it cannot be done because the space is limited in such a small logo. But this is *exactly* why I (and probably most other people) suck at creating logos or icons - it is very difficult to capture the essence of something in so small a space. And this is exactly what I would expect from a good designer - make an OSM logo which immediately communicates that here's people making a map. Now that would be good. Now, this guy comes along and wants to make things better - cool! Let him have at it I say, because it's not like we need to stick with his logo if we choose forever, is it? It's not like we can't ask him to come back with a bunch of alternative designs, is it? Sure. It was only after his insistence, and his call for better management, that I concluded that he seems to know little of OSM. Before that, I said quite simply and clearly that I do not like his design because it makes us look like a POI collecting project. I'm happy for him to take this feedback, which wasn't mine alone, and work on a bunch of alternative designs. I catch flak because I'm frank, No, you have tried to use this justification many times before and it has been explained to you that it is possible to be frank without alienating people. You may be frank, but you display very little sensibility to people's feelings. For example, the first time you came up with new designs for the front page was when you had CloudMade designers make mockups. Did you really think that people in a free and open project would like to have their front page designed that way? The designs could have been the best designs in the world, they would not have been accepted. Sometimes messages need to be wrapped properly, and being unwilling to use respect and politeness means that many messages will be discarded even if they carry some truth. When Steve Jobs went back to apple one of the first things he did was throw away all the stuff that was in the campus museum. Old macs, Apple ]['s and all that. I have difficulties in seeing how Steve Jobs and Apple fit in here. I think Apple sucks but I don't think it is relevant. I don't believe in gurus either. Because you can't invent the future by looking at the past. Of all the amazing achievements OSM has made, none is as important as the ones to come. If you don't believe that, then there's not a lot of point being here because that would mean we're a declining project, and therefore there are better things to do elsewhere. Indeed you sound like you've listened too much to charismatic gurus. You sound like you're trying to create meaningful quotes for posterity. You are not arguing with me, you are talking to the camera. Think about what you're saying! Just because physics has interesting things in store for the future doesn't mean that anyone learning the theory of relativity is looking backwards and has no place in physics. And I'm telling you, you're looking backward, and you want a process, and a working group so that in about 2 years someone might improve the site design. No, I'm happy for someone to create a design on their own. Of course it would make sense to talk about the goals first so that there's no disappointment later. I think you are right in saying that design cannot be done by a committee, but the designers sure should talk to their clients before they start, no?
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Robert Martinez m...@mray.de wrote: Hello OpenStreetMappers, I would love to offer a special contribution to the project: a new logo! Here is my blogpost: http://freegital.de/osm-logo-proposal Here is the presentation: http://mray.de/sites/default/files/logoproposal_big.html Dear Robert, I really like the logo. I'm just one voice of course. I don't agree with Paul's characterization of clip art. Clip art leaves a negative connotation for me. Paul's suggestion of a golf course interests me, as I have a couple of golf-map related domain names. So with a couple of minor[1] tweaks, I think you have a super logo for my osm-related interest. For an OSM or OSMF logo, I've been following this thread with interest. I think Matt's logo, the current OSM logo, is miles better than anything else proposed at the time. Like your offering, Matt contributed a lot of thought, time and expertise in creating and donating a logo. It has served us well and as mentioned earlier in this thread, Has anybody left the project because of the logo? Of course I still can't leave well enough alone, so how about: Rather than a flag, marking a point on a grid, how about a pen, or hand wielding a pen, drawing a road? On the left, a field of 1s and 0s for the data, and on the right the aforementioned road as part of a junction?[2] Clearly inspired and informed by Matt's magnifying glass revealing the underlying data, but showing instead the progression from data to information, and the hand of the contributor (or their pen).[3] [1] that is to say, I have no clue, I'm not a graphic artist, but I feel like I have to put my fingerprints on this. [2] /Ibid./ [3] /Ibid./ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
2010/5/16 SteveC st...@asklater.com: As for why this is better, anyone who has printed t-shirts, conference material or worked in branding will tell you, as I already have that the current logo: * has too many colours * doesn't scale * is too busy * isn't brandable to a colour scheme This isn't opinion, it's just basic design facts. while this is all true, it doesn't imply that to design a new logo we must completely throw the current design away. I think that the old logo is quite good at pointing out what OSM is about (for a part, sparing out the collaborative aspect, but still the data and not map or poi-aspect is important). I would expect from a new logo to be 1 individual and unique 2 meet all the technical and graphical requirements for a logo 3 tell a story / symbolize the idea of OSM 4 possibly maintain some continuity with the current logo (ideally the new logo would be some progress of the old one) the proposed design is working only for point 2 but has nothing to do with OSM. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 1:47 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I would expect from a new logo to be 1 individual and unique 2 meet all the technical and graphical requirements for a logo 3 tell a story / symbolize the idea of OSM 4 possibly maintain some continuity with the current logo the proposed design is working only for point 2 but has nothing to do with OSM. Good points. Though personally, I believe 2 (technical/graphical) is by far the most important, where that includes the requirement that it look good. 4 (continuity) is unnecessary, IMHO, and 1 (uniqueness) is usually not a big issue. 3 (story-telling) can be very difficult - but please remember that this shouldn't be interpreted literally - i.e. symbolizing the idea of OSM does NOT mean that there HAS to be 1's and 0's, AND a map, AND the idea of a community, AND the idea of freedom, etc etc. Look at the Nike logo. Or the ubuntu logo... both very simple, and effective because they each try to capture only one single *feeling* that somehow represents each company. I really like Robert's contribution. But I guess I understand, now, that some people think it falls short on story-telling. Perhaps that is useful feedback, that designers can take away from this. I think it's only a matter of time before someone proposes a design that nails (at least) those four criteria simultaneously. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Nieuwe gebruikers moeten zich registreren voor ODbL (naast CC-BY-SA)
Op het forum loopt een soort van poll over deze kwestie, misschien halverwege volgende week de stand opmaken? Wie wil kan nog even zijn voorkeur bekend maken... http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=6959 On 05/13/2010 06:31 PM, Roeland Douma wrote: Zijn er plannen hoe dat te doen? Is het misschien iets om de top 20 editors in NL te nemen en er vanuit te gaan dat ze niet akkoord gaan en dan uit te rekenen wat er nog van NL overblijft? (om het even lokaal te houden) Soort worst case scenario. Of neem een ander scenario, zeg dat 5% nee zegt. wat blijft er dan nog over? Lijkt me toch redelijk relevant om dat soort getallen een beetje te hebben. Groet, --Roeland On Thursday 13 May 2010 01:12:24 Henk Hoff wrote: Daar komt het in grote lijnen wel op neer. Gr, Henk Op 13 mei 2010 00:17 schreef Roeland Doumau...@rullzer.com het volgende: Om toch weer even dwars te liggen. Wat gebeurt er als ik weiger mijn data onder de ODbL vrij te geven? Worden dan al mijn edits (en edits door mensen van de data na mij) niet meegenomen? Groet, --Roeland On Wednesday 12 May 2010 17:13:59 Henk Hoff wrote: Ter info. Er is in de afgelopen tijd uitgebreid gesproken over een wijziging van de licentie voor OpenStreetMap. Vandaag is de eerste stap gezet in de daadwerkelijke overgang. Vanaf vandaag moeten *gebruikers die een account aanmaken* op www.openstreetmap.org akkoord gaan met publicatie op basis van de Open Database Licentie (ODbL), naast dat deze data ook nog onder CC-BY-SA vrijgegeven kan worden. Dit is een eerste stap in de overgang van de OSM-dataset van CC-BY-SA naar ODbL. De bestaande gebruikers krijgen vanaf een nog te bepalen tijdstip de vraag of zij akkoord gaan met de Contributor Terms ( http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Contributor_Terms) en dat zij hun bestaande bijdragen daar ook onder willen vrijgeven. Wil je dit moment absoluut niet missen, zorg er voor dat je bij de OSM-account een werkend e-mailadres hebt geregistreerd. De datum waarop de dataset daadwerkelijk onder de ODbL wordt vrijgegeven is nog niet vastgesteld. Dit zal deels afhankelijk van de datum waarop de bestaande gebruikers benaderd gaat worden. Mvg, Henk Hoff OSM Foundation ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl ___ Talk-nl mailing list Talk-nl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nl
Re: [talk-au] New gateway motorway bridge duplication
A couple of things about the bridge. First, even though it was officially opened today, it doesn't have traffic on it until Monday week (24th). Then they do changes to the approaches, and a bit later shut the old bridge down for six months for refurbishment. We'll have to keep changing things here until December. Second, on Thursday they had a pre-opening ceremony, with assorted politicians and reporters being pretty much the only people there, to welcome google to the bridge. A google streetview car was the first to cross the bridge (not counting workers, I guess). So once the footage is processed, and streetview gets it's next update, it's going to look a bit weird if the maps aren't corrected as well. See http://www.girlclumsy.com/2010/05/on-bridge.html#more On 16 May 2010 11:55, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: It's been months now since a new section of the gateway motorway opened and it still hasn't appeared on their maps, and today, or tomorrow at the latest, the gateway motorway bridge opens to traffic. So I'm wondering if we should start a pool on how long before the bridge and other road works ends up on google maps. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] New gateway motorway bridge duplication
On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 3:56 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: There is a lot of weird street view locations where the roads have been realigned but the map data hasn't caught up... Yeah, here's an interesting one I came across a while ago: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8hq=ll=-37.632077,144.069471spn=0.011691,0.072098z=15layer=ccbll=-37.630716,144.062648panoid=UbAjxEt3Nz25stG7maF4Lwcbp=11,273.15,,0,-4 Drag the little man around and you'll notice that since Yendon-Egerton Rd is actually dead straight, the street view only shows up where reality intersects the non-existent wiggle in the map data... Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Broadcast tower locations
CC-by dataset just turned up: http://data.australia.gov.au/622 It seems pretty straight forward to convert this to .osm format, suitable for JOSM. However I'm after suggestions on how to deal with the .osm file(s). I'm leaning towards producing metro and non-metro data sets and bulk importing the non-metro data sets and then offering the metro data sets on a request basis, or is there a better way to handle this and other similar data sets? These locations might be of interest for another reason, many transmission sites are close to look outs. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tagging stormwater drain areas?
I'd like to thank everyone who replied. While there were some suggestions, it seems nobody else is worrying about these, so I guess with no established convention I'll go with waterway=drain;area=yes. waterway=drain because I've seen many of these sites with signs marked drainage area. area=yes is required because the wiki page for drain: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Ddrain only lists way elements for it. John mentioned surface=grass. I've never seen one of these with grass. More like surface=ground/dirt/sand/gravel/compacted. -- Andrew Gregory mailto:and...@scss.com.au http://www.scss.com.au/family/andrew/ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Broadcast tower locations
On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 1:13 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: I'm leaning towards producing metro and non-metro data sets and bulk importing the non-metro data sets and then offering the metro data sets on a request basis, or is there a better way to handle this and other similar data sets? Splitting up the data seems reasonable. As for access, I'd suggest supplying it via a central location on the wiki. In general, IMHO the easier it is for people to access it and import it, the better. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Fwd: [Aust-NZ] The National Plan for Environmental Information [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
-- Forwarded message -- From: Bruce Bannerman b.banner...@bom.gov.au Date: 17 May 2010 14:30 Subject: [Aust-NZ] The National Plan for Environmental Information [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] To: aust...@lists.osgeo.org aust...@lists.osgeo.org fyi: http://www.environment.gov.au/npei/ Bruce ___ Aust-NZ mailing list aust...@lists.osgeo.org http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/aust-nz ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Broadcast tower locations
On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 1:13 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: I'm leaning towards producing metro and non-metro data sets and bulk importing the non-metro data sets and then offering the metro data sets on a request basis, or is there a better way to handle this and other similar data sets? Is that because you're worried there will be a lot of duplicates with existing data in metro areas? Could you perhaps import it all, but mark the metro data as locked (or whatever it is that stops it rendering)? Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tagging stormwater drain areas?
On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Andrew Gregory and...@scss.com.au wrote: I'd like to thank everyone who replied. While there were some suggestions, it seems nobody else is worrying about these, so I guess with no established convention I'll go with waterway=drain;area=yes. waterway=drain because I've seen many of these sites with signs marked drainage area. area=yes is required because the wiki page for drain: Fwiw, I'd start using a new tag, maybe waterway=drainage_area, and make a note in the wiki. Marking it drain, area=yes implies that this is an actual running drain that happens to be quite wide at that point. Incidentally, to make sure I'm understanding what we're talking about, you're talking about an area where water runs *into*, in order to seep into the soil? Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tagging stormwater drain areas?
Andrew, Is this what you are talking about? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/basin%3Dinfiltration http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-February/034383.html Stephen On 17 May 2010 14:15, Andrew Gregory and...@scss.com.au wrote: I'd like to thank everyone who replied. While there were some suggestions, it seems nobody else is worrying about these, so I guess with no established convention I'll go with waterway=drain;area=yes. waterway=drain because I've seen many of these sites with signs marked drainage area. area=yes is required because the wiki page for drain: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Ddrain only lists way elements for it. John mentioned surface=grass. I've never seen one of these with grass. More like surface=ground/dirt/sand/gravel/compacted. -- Andrew Gregory mailto:and...@scss.com.au http://www.scss.com.au/family/andrew/ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Tagging stormwater drain areas?
On 17 May 2010 15:27, Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/basin%3Dinfiltration +1, waterway=drain according to current wiki doco only applied to ways ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Broadcast tower locations
On 17 May 2010 15:07, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Is that because you're worried there will be a lot of duplicates with existing data in metro areas? Could you perhaps import it all, but Some people were upset at previous imports in metro areas. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[Talk-br] Confirmação de Presença no FISL
Pessoal, Eu e o Arlindo compramos passagem ontem para participar do FISL. Só precisamos agora achar lugar (baratinho) pra pousar nos dias que estivermos por lá. Alguem do RS pode dar dicas em relação a lugar pra ficar? []s ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land braucht den cyclefootway
Am 16. Mai 2010 16:35 schrieb André Riedel riedel.an...@gmail.com: Wenn du einen Trampelpfad beschreiben möchtest, nutze bitte highway=trail. Wie kommst Du darauf? Den Tag kannte ich noch gar nicht, er scheint aber nicht für Trampelpfade gemacht zu sein: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrail For cross-country trails, hiking trails, paths going up to a mountain Die Definition ist komplett frei von Abgrenzungen zu footway und path (die können doch auch einen Berg hochgehen, oder?) und es steht sogar dabei, dass es designierte Fußwege sind (foot=designated). Das Bild suggeriert auch eher einen größeren Weg als einen Trampelpfad. Ich nutze selbst highway=footway, informal=yes für Trampelpfade. Steht allerdings wohl nirgends dokumentiert und ist ggf. ein Platzhalter, d.h. ich würde die auch wieder zu was anderem umtaggen, wenn es denn klar ist, dass das neue (alte) Tag wirklich und ausschließlich Trampelpfade meint. Das trail scheint mir die Anforderungen an eine brauchbare Definition nicht zu erfüllen, zumindest sind das m.E. keine Trampelpfade. Sieh Dir mal hier die Bilder an: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail Gruß Martin ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Aktualisierungsintervall von Nominatim und Geonames
Liegt es am Aktualiserungsintervall von Nominatim und Geonames, oder warum wird der Thälmannsee (mit Name versehen vor einem Monat) nicht gefunden? http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/23231371/history -jha- ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] - optisch aufgearbeitete OSM History
UMAX974 schrieb: vor einiger Zeit hab ich mal eine Seite gesehen, auf der die OSM History einer Ortes optisch dargestellt war. Ich könnt mir vorstellen, dass es so etwas evtl sogar in Form eines kleinen Filmes gäbe. Ich fände das z..B für OSM Präsentationen eine Tolle Sache, wenn man für einen beliebigen Ort diese OSM Wachstum darstellen könnte. Gibt es so etwas? Dies¹ Trifft nicht ganz das Thema, könnte möglicherweise trotzdem hilfreich sein (Ansichten zu verschiedenen Zeiten generieren lassen, gif erstellen, done.) ¹ http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.region.de/59980/ Gruß malenki ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] highway=trail
Am 16. Mai 2010 16:48 schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: Am 16. Mai 2010 16:35 schrieb André Riedel riedel.an...@gmail.com: Wenn du einen Trampelpfad beschreiben möchtest, nutze bitte highway=trail. Wie kommst Du darauf? Den Tag kannte ich noch gar nicht, er scheint aber nicht für Trampelpfade gemacht zu sein: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrail For cross-country trails, hiking trails, paths going up to a mountain Die Definition ist komplett frei von Abgrenzungen zu footway und path (die können doch auch einen Berg hochgehen, oder?) und es steht sogar dabei, dass es designierte Fußwege sind (foot=designated). Das Bild suggeriert auch eher einen größeren Weg als einen Trampelpfad. Die Wikiseite ist in der Tat sehr schlecht. Ich nutze selbst highway=footway, informal=yes für Trampelpfade. Steht allerdings wohl nirgends dokumentiert und ist ggf. ein Platzhalter, d.h. ich würde die auch wieder zu was anderem umtaggen, wenn es denn klar ist, dass das neue (alte) Tag wirklich und ausschließlich Trampelpfade meint. Das trail scheint mir die Anforderungen an eine brauchbare Definition nicht zu erfüllen, zumindest sind das m.E. keine Trampelpfade. Sieh Dir mal hier die Bilder an: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail Das ist wieder so eine Sache mit den Übersetzungen. path != Pfad track - trail oder Eisenbahnbett http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track Hier geht es um Definitionen. Im Speziellen kann man die Entstehungsgeschichte (irgendwo) im Mail-Archiv nachlesen. Es ging dabei auf jeden Fall um eine Kategorie unterhalb der von path/footway. Aber man sollte es auf jeden Fall noch ein mal verfolgen, wie die genaue Verwendung ist. Ciao André ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Aktualisierungsintervall von Nominatim und Geonames
Johann H. Addicks addicks at gmx.net writes: Liegt es am Aktualiserungsintervall von Nominatim und Geonames, oder warum wird der Thälmannsee (mit Name versehen vor einem Monat) nicht gefunden? http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/23231371/history -jha- Da ist was kaputt: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nominatim :( ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Aktualisierungsintervall von Nominatim und Geonames
Volker schrieb: Da ist was kaputt: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nominatim Hmm, 13. April hiess es also ETA 14 days schade. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Nominatimdiff=457648oldid=442739 -jha- ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] - optisch aufgearbeitete OSM History
Hallo, UMAX974 wrote: vor einiger Zeit hab ich mal eine Seite gesehen, auf der die OSM History einer Ortes optisch dargestellt war. Ich könnt mir vorstellen, dass es so etwas evtl sogar in Form eines kleinen Filmes gäbe. Ich fände das z..B für OSM Präsentationen eine Tolle Sache, wenn man für einen beliebigen Ort diese OSM Wachstum darstellen könnte. Gibt es so etwas? Ich habe einen recht primitiven Dienst, mit dem man sich eine Grafik, die nur Nodes anzeigt, fuer einen beliebigen Ort erzeugen lassen kann: http://labs.geofabrik.de/history/ Ausserdem habe ich vorfabrizierte Bilder fuer einige Regionen mit richtigem Mapnik-Rendering: http://www.geofabrik.de/gallery/history/ Die sind aber zuletzt im Dezember aktualisiert worden. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Falsche(?) hamlets
Guenther Meyer d@sordidmusic.com [Sun, May 16, 2010 at 12:30:15PM CEST]: Am Sonntag 16 Mai 2010, 12:17:30 schrieb Johannes Huesing: Guenther Meyer d@sordidmusic.com [Sun, May 16, 2010 at 11:16:23AM CEST]: Am Samstag 15 Mai 2010, 23:51:58 schrieb Johannes Huesing: Weiler gehoeren immer irgendwo dazu. Hamlet gehoert fuer mich an eigenstaendige im Sinne von separat stehend ansiedlungen/gehoefte, aber ganz bestimmt nicht an einen Stadtteil. Was ist denn bei Dir ein Stadtteil? ein stadtteil ist fuer mich ein gebiet innerhalb der ortsgrenzen (die gelben schilder) einer groesseren stadt, das aus irgendeinem grund (fruehere eigene gemeinde, eigene verwaltung, ...) einen eigenen namen hat. ein weiler ist dagegen eine kleine, alleinstehende ansammlung von grundstuecken, die keine geschlossene ortschaft bilden. Hat ein Weiler also keinen Namen? Oder hat er einen Namen, der Grund dafür ist nur unbekannt? kannst du lesen?!? Mit ein bisschen Mühe verstehe ich auch die absolute Kleinschreibung. hab ich das geschrieben??? Nein, aber tertium non datur. Ich habe folgendes aus Deinem Text gelesen, tut mir Leid, wenn ich Dich falsch verstanden habe: Ein Stadtteil ist ein Gebiet innerhalb der Ortsgrenzen (die gelben schilder) einer groesseren Stadt, das aus irgendeinem Grund (fruehere eigene Gemeinde, eigene Verwaltung, ...) einen eigenen Namen hat. Das bedeutet, kennzeichnend ist, dass sich ein Stadtteil nicht nur auf dem Stadtgebiet befindet, sondern auch eine geschlossene Ortschaft. Das ist zu Deiner Information nicht gleichbedeutend, die gelben Schilder markieren die Grenzen der geschlossenen Bebauung, nicht die Ortsgrenzen. Wichtig ist, dass er nicht nur einen Namen hat, sondern dass es auch einen Grund für den Namen gibt. Beispiele dafür sind eine frühere Eigenständigkeit oder eine eigene Verwaltung. Das letzte wäre eher ein Stadtbezirk als ein Stadtteil. Es müssen nicht unbedingt Menschen in diesem Stadtteil wohnen, ein Gewerbegebiet kann auch ein Stadtteil sein. Hauptsache, es gibt einen Grund dafür, dass es einen Namen hat. Ein Weiler ist dagegen eine kleine, alleinstehende Ansammlung von Grundstuecken, die keine geschlossene Ortschaft bilden. Dies sind keine Gegenbegriffe zu einem Stadtteil, außer den gelben Schildern und dass eine Aussage über den Namen fehlt. Eine kleine, alleinstehende Ansammlung von Häusern kann es auch innerhalb von Städten geben, das ist kein Alleinstehungskriterium für Gemeindeteile oder selbstständige Weiler. Die Hemmschwelle, gelbe Schilder zu errichten, ist in der Stadt niedriger als in Landgemeinden. wahrscheinlich hat er einen namen, sonst koennte man ja nix hinschreiben. Könnte man schon, nur das name-Tag würde leer bleiben. der name ist absolut irrelevant. Warum hast Du ihn in Deiner Definition für Stadtteil dann aufgeführt? -- Johannes Hüsing There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture mailto:johan...@huesing.name from such a trifling investment of fact. http://derwisch.wikidot.com (Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi) ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land brauc ht den cyclefootway
Am Sun, 16 May 2010 14:01:28 +0200 hat Florian Gross usenet-spam-genausoguel...@grossing.de geschrieben: Hier in der Gegend scheinen die Blauschilder (auch von der Polizei) eher als Fahrrad frei angesehen zu werden und werden auch so verwendet. genau, wobei ich die als Radfahrer angenehmer finde als Fußweg+Radfahrer frei, dann ist man rechtlich gesehen nicht nur ein Gast ;-) Andererseits verbietet man mit den Fuß-/Radweg-Schildern (im Gegensatz zu gar keinen Schildern) die Nutzung für Mopeds etc., die da sicher auch gerne langfahren würden (bzw. deren Fahrer). Gruß, Nils ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Stolpersteine - Vollständigkeitsauswe rtung
Moin ! seit einigen Wochen werden vermehrt Stolpersteine erfaßt. Ich habe jetzt hierzu ein Tool [1] erstellt mit welchem die Vollständigkeit überwacht werden soll. Einzelheiten zum Thema findet Ihr unter [2]. Es würde mich freuen, wenn die Erfassung in HH so weiter vorangeht wie bisher - es gibt nämlich schon ein großes Interesse an der daraus entstehenden Karte. Vorerst habe ich nur HH und Lübeck eingepflegt. Nach einer gewissen Testphase können gerne auch andere Städte eingebunden werden. Gruß Jan :-) [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stolpersteine#Soll-Ist-Abgleich-Tool [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stolpersteine ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Geodaten für Zürich
Liebe Schweizer, ich war auf einer Tagung bei Google in Zürich und habe dort Menschen aus dem GIS-Umfeld der Stadt Zürich kennengelernt. Die finden OSM gut und wären bereit, Daten zur Verfügung zu stellen. Einen entsprechenden Kontakt kann ich gern vermittel. Leider kenne ich die Schweizer/Zürcher-OSM-Szene nicht: wer wäre ein geeigneter Gesprächspartner? Gruss, Markus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] 3D-Panorama-Karte
Google hat in Zürich eine 3D-Panorama-Karte vorgestellt. Ein Dutzend grossformatige Flachbildschirme hochkant im Kreis. Darauf nahtlos die Welt als Panorama. Der Betrachter mitten drin. In der Mitte eine 3D-Maus: drehen: das Panorama dreht sich um den Betrachter bewegen nach vorn/hinten/rechts/links: Flugbewegung/Zoom hochziehen: Bewegung zur Weltraumperspektive runterdrücken: Bewegung zur Froschperspektive Hier ein Ausschnitt mit dem Musterhafen Warnemünde von OpenSeaMap: http://www.openseamap.org/index.php?id=52L=0 Man kann sogar rund um den Leuchtturm fliegen... Gruss, Markus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Geodaten für Uster (CH)
Liebe Schweizer, ich habe einen Menschen aus dem GIS-Umfeld der Stat Uster kennengelernt. Er wäre bereit, Daten zur Verfügung zu stellen. Einen entsprechenden Kontakt kann ich gern vermittel. Wer mag? Gruss, Markus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Stationszeichen
Hallo, ich habe gemerkt, dass es noch keine Vorgabe gibt, wie Stationszeichen gemappt werden können. Stationszeichen sind die kleinen Schilderchen an den Straßen, ide die Kilometrierung angeben, sozusagen die Nachfolger der Kilometersteine (für mehr Informationen siehe http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stationszeichen). Zwar gibt es ein Proposal zu Kilometersteinen (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Milestones), aber das reicht für diesen Zweck bei weitem nicht aus. Daher habe ich unter http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Milestones#Some_more_ideas_how_to_tag_milestones_in_Germany_.28and_other_countries.3F.29 einen Vorschlag gemacht, wie man Stationszeichen (unter Berücksichtigung des Proposals) mappen könnte. (Erschwert wird es dadurch, das jedes Land sein eigenes System hat, zum Beispiel http://www.stmi.bayern.de/bauen/strassenbau/veroeffentlichungen/16478/ (Bayern), http://www.strassenbau.niedersachsen.de/master/C39481429_N39481081_L20_D0_I5213350.html (Niedersachsen) oder http://la.boa-bw.de/archive/frei/899/0/www.im.baden-wuerttemberg.de/de/Ordnungssystem_der_Strassen/1800155968.html?referer=17_min=_im (Baden-Württemberg).) Ich habe es bereits an einem kurzen Stück Straße ausprobiert: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/4687539 Leider gab es bisher weder im Wiki noch im Blog Rückmeldungen dazu, weswegen ich mich jetzt an diese ML wende, um zu fragen, was ihr davon haltet, und ob es z. B. noch Anregungen oder Verbesserungsvorschäge gibt. Mir ist durchaus bewusst, dass es sich hierbei vermutlich um ein eher langweiliges Thema handelt, aber ich denke, Stationszeichen sind es durchaus wert, gemappt zu werden, weil sie jeden Punkt im Straßennetz (jedenfalls, was die nummerierten Straßen angeht) genau definieren (je nach Land durch Straßennummer, Abschnitt und Station oder vorherigem Netzknoten, nächsten Netzknoten und Station). Das könnte zum Beispiel bei Unfällen recht hilfreich sein. Gruß, T. M. PS: Dies ist mein erster Beitrag zu dieser ML (genaugenommen einer der ersten überhaupt zu irgendeiner ML), daher hoffe ich, dass ich alles richtig gemacht habe, und bitte euch, mir möglichst nicht den Kopf abzureißen, wenn ich doch was falsch gemacht habe. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land brauch t den cyclefootway
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 04:35:07PM +0200, André Riedel wrote: Kartendarstellung redest, vermische bitte nicht deine Übersetzung von path zu Pfad mit der der Definition von highway=path. Ein highway=path ist dem cycleway und dem footway gleichwertig! Wenn du einen Trampelpfad beschreiben möchtest, nutze bitte highway=trail. Steht mal im widerspruch zu dem Bild hier: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpath und auch der in dieser Seite verfassten Definition in Schriftform. In der Deutschen variante: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dpath Einfacher Weg im Wald, der keine weitere Beschilderung hat. Laut den Access-Restrictions also erlaubt für Fußgänger, Radfahrer und Reiter. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de Es ist ein grobes Missverständnis und eine Fehlwahrnehmung, dem Staat im Internet Zensur- und Überwachungsabsichten zu unterstellen. - - Bundesminister Dr. Wolfgang Schäuble -- 10. Juli in Berlin signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Wikipedia SkillShare-Konferenz in Lünebu rg
vom 4.-5. Juni findet in Lüneburg eine Wikipedia/Wikimedia-Konferenz statt: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Skillshare Bis jetzt werden 130 Teilnehmer erwartet. Vielleicht ist ja für den einen oder anderen etwas dabei. Gruss, Markus Themen: * Fotorallye der 500 Fotos von Lüneburg * Bots für Dummies – Vortrag * Bots für Nerds * Wir machen die Monobooks! – Workshop * Toolserver * Qualitätsmanagement * Konflikte in der Wikipedia – Konstruktive Internetkommunikation * Beautyretusche * Ethik in Zusammenhang mit Artikeln über lebende Personen * Wikisource – Workshop * Urheberrecht * Dateiüberprüfung * Wikiversity * „Nenne Name und Lizenz“: Nachnutzung der Wikipedia in der Pressearbeit * RC meets MP * Wikipedia, Wikimedia-Projekte und Schulen - Das Schulprojekt * Funktionsweise der Wikipedia aus spieltheoretischer Sicht * OpenStreetMap, die freie Weltkarte * Fotografieren für Wikipedia * Wikimania 2010 in Danzig – wir stellen uns vor * Welche Quellen darf man benutzen? Was sind überhaupt Quellen? * Supportteam demystified * Medienkompetenzschulung mit ARD-aktuell-Chef Kai Gniffke * Creative Commons als Lizenzen der Zukunft * Onlinesucht - Kritischer Umgang mit dem Internet * Digitalisieren im Stadtarchiv * Wikiquote-Workshop * Wikipedia-Usability ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Stolpersteine - Vollständigkeitsauswertu ng
hi jan, ich dachte, es wäre inzwischen ALLEN klar, dass Relationen NICHT zum Gruppieren (zusammenstellen von Objekten) dienen soll. Da gab es vor einigen Wochen mal wieder Diskussionen drüber. walter - Der Fehler tritt nicht sporadisch sondern nur ab und zu auf. - aus Hotline-Eintrag -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Stolpersteine-Vollstandigkeitsauswertung-tp5062198p5062593.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Geodaten für Zürich
Hallo Markus, ich war auf einer Tagung bei Google in Zürich und habe dort Menschen aus dem GIS-Umfeld der Stadt Zürich kennengelernt. Die finden OSM gut und wären bereit, Daten zur Verfügung zu stellen. Ich war per Zufall vorgestern Freitag beim GeoZ und habe dort nach der Verwendung der Luftbilder der Stadt gefragt. Wenn alles klappt sollte ich bald ein schriftliches OK dazu haben. Um welche Daten ging es denn bei Dir? Einen entsprechenden Kontakt kann ich gern vermittel. Leider kenne ich die Schweizer/Zürcher-OSM-Szene nicht: wer wäre ein geeigneter Gesprächspartner? Hier lesen nur wenige Schweizer mit; die CH-Liste findest Du hier: http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch Gruss, Thomas ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Geodaten für Zürich
Hallo Thomas, Ich war per Zufall vorgestern Freitag beim GeoZ und habe dort nach der Verwendung der Luftbilder der Stadt gefragt. Wenn alles klappt sollte ich bald ein schriftliches OK dazu haben. Gratuliere! Um welche Daten ging es denn bei Dir? Die Stadt Zürich erfasst grad den gesamten Langsamverkehr. Man könnte sich vorstellen die Ergebnisse mit OSM zu teilen. Hier lesen nur wenige Schweizer mit Schade. Vielleicht kannst Du das Angebot ja weiterleiten und jemand meldet sich bei mir? Gruss, Markus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Flüsse und Kanäle
Liebe OSMer, Viele Flüsse und Kanäle sind bisher nur als Linie dargestellt: Peene Oder-Havel-Kanal Elbe-Lübeck-Kanal Mittellandkanal Hanover-Minden Oder-Spree-Kanal Elde-Müritz-Wasserstr. Obere Havel Havel-Kanal Vielleicht gibt es ja kommunale Luftbilder, mit denen man die Breite erkennen und darstellen kann? Oder Ortskundige können helfen? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:waterway=riverbank Gruss, Markus ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Bayernviewer-Daten
M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: Hast Du mal nachgesehen, ob es evtl. einen Bebauungsplan gibt? Da stehen die Hausnummern z.B. auch drin. Für München gibt es leider erst sehr wenige Bebauungspläne online: http://www.muenchen.de/Rathaus/plan/bebplanung/rechtsverbindliche_bebauungsplaene/176754/index.html Hier is alles rot, was (online) verfügbar ist http://www.muenchen.de/cms/prod2/mde/_de/rubriken/Rathaus/75_plan/05_bebplanung/rechtsverbindliche_bebauungsplaene/uebersichtsliste.pdf Ich hab jetzt auch ein paar Hausnummern eingetragen und muß sagen, dass es schon arg mühsam ist, will man alles ablaufen/abfahren. Aber für München finde ich keine Hausnummern-Pläne. Viele Grüße von Dani ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Stolpersteine - Vollständigkeitsauswertu ng
Am 16.05.2010 21:55, schrieb Walter Nordmann: hi jan, ich dachte, es wäre inzwischen ALLEN klar, dass Relationen NICHT zum Gruppieren (zusammenstellen von Objekten) dienen soll. Da gab es vor einigen Wochen mal wieder Diskussionen drüber. walter - Der Fehler tritt nicht sporadisch sondern nur ab und zu auf. - aus Hotline-Eintrag Hi ! das Thema wurde einmal so angefangen und deshalb habe ich mich vorerst daran orientiert. Solange es noch kein anderes (spezielles) Tag für diese Menge von Objekten ( 23.000) finde ich das gar nicht so verkehrt. Gruß Jan :-) ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Gemeindegrenzen und Straßennamen
Am 15.05.2010 22:12, schrieb Chris66: Und woher sollen Anwendungen wissen, dass sich die addr: Information nicht auf das Objekt selbst bezieht? Hab die Tags gelöscht. Hier gibts noch mehr davon: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/44816271 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/44815979 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/334631 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/334377 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/333876 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/334376 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/334375 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/334627 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/333875 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/556028 Ob Mapnik/Osma die Hausnummer des NSG in die Mitte des Polygons malt weiss ich nicht. ;-) Chris ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Unterscheidung von Fahrrad/Fahrradfahren verboten
Es braeuchte wirklich ein Tag fuer den speziellen italienischen Sonderfall in einigen Gebirgsgegenden, wo man sein MTB nur tragen, aber nicht schieben darf. Berührt das Bike den Boden und ein Ranger siehts, kostet es 3 stellige Geldstrafe. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land brauch t den cyclefootway
Im Wiki wird beim cycleway betont, dass dieser straßenbegleitend sei. Das ist in Städten häufig so. Hier auf dem Land, wo Eigenheime abgesehen von Stadtkernen fast die Regel sind, werden Neubausiedlungen häufig als Ansammlung von Stichstraßen mit Wendehämmern angelegt und 30er Zonen immer mehr die Regel. Bürgersteige sind rare Ausnahmen. Man läuft und radelt (und spielt) auf der Straße. Um den Fußgängern und Radfahrern die dadurch bedingten Umwege zu ersparen, gibt es schmale befestigte Querverbindungen, welche durchgängig als kombinierter Rad und Fußweg beschildert sind. Von straßenbegleitend kann somit keine Rede sein. Auch als designated im Sinne von OSM würde ich die Wege nicht bezeichnen, wenngleich diese Wege - wenn verkürzend und insbesondere für Kinder sicherer - natürlich gern genutzt werden. Eine weitere Intention ist es dabei auch, ein Rad- und Schulwegenetz abseits von Hauptstraßen zu schaffen. In den Siedlungen verkehrt nunmehr nicht nur Zielverkehr, sondern sie werden für die Radfahrer zu einer Art Nahverkehrsnetz. So dringt diese Form - wo möglich - auch immer mehr in Altsiedlungen vor. Diese Beschilderung der Abkürzungen kann rechtlich wegen des abweichenden Verlaufes niemand davon abhalten, den Umweg über die Straße zu nehmen. Sind da hunderte von Wegen falsch beschildert, da nicht straßenbegleitend? Sind die Gesetze da von der Wirklichkeit überholt worden, in der auch solitäre und nicht nur straßenbegleitende Wege regelmässig so gekennzeichnet sind? Für diese Fälle stört bei OSM die Annahme der Straßenbegleitung und des designated schon sehr, weil sie auf dem Land in der Praxis nicht stimmt. OSM ist in den Städten sehr gut aufgestellt. Es fehlt an einer besseren Abdeckung des ländlichen Raumes. Um dem beizukommen, mangelt es hier am griffigen Tag cyclefootway ohne Designierung, das nicht so heißen muss. In den Fällen, wenn diese Wege in aller Regel baulich getrennt sich übergangslos einer Hauptstraße nähern, kann man dann das designated hinzufügen. Das entspricht der praktischen Handhabung, wie sie von der Polizei durchgesetzt und den Kindern im Verkehrsunterricht gelehrt wird. Für solch ein griffiges Tag spricht auch, dass momentan der footway bzw cycleway als tatsächlich designated und eigentlich ausschleßlich Rafahrern vorbehalten für solche Fälle missbraucht werden, wie es derzeit verbreitet auf OSM der Fall ist. Ich weiß, dass man für solche Fälle ein path verwenden kann. Das aber widerstrebt vielen Usern, die einen gewissen Ausbauzustand für Radfahrer und Fußgänger ähnlich der primary-Straßenklasse für Autostraßen damit verbinden möchten. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Falsche(?) hamlets
Am Sonntag 16 Mai 2010, 04:40:50 schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer: Am 15. Mai 2010 23:51 schrieb Johannes Huesing johan...@huesing.name: Was ist denn bei Dir ein Stadtteil? Es ging hier um München. Zeig mir mal einen Stadtteil von München, der nur Weiler ist. wie?! dein beispiel solln ist ein stadtteil und damit definitiv kein hamlet. nichts anderes habe ich geschrieben. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Falsche(?) hamlets
Am Samstag 15 Mai 2010, 23:51:58 schrieb Johannes Huesing: Weiler gehoeren immer irgendwo dazu. Hamlet gehoert fuer mich an eigenstaendige im Sinne von separat stehend ansiedlungen/gehoefte, aber ganz bestimmt nicht an einen Stadtteil. Was ist denn bei Dir ein Stadtteil? ein stadtteil ist fuer mich ein gebiet innerhalb der ortsgrenzen (die gelben schilder) einer groesseren stadt, das aus irgendeinem grund (fruehere eigene gemeinde, eigene verwaltung, ...) einen eigenen namen hat. ein weiler ist dagegen eine kleine, alleinstehende ansammlung von grundstuecken, die keine geschlossene ortschaft bilden. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land braucht den cyclefootway
Hallo, wie wäre es mit dem allgemeinen highway=path in Kombination mit bicycle=yes|designated|no, foot=yes|designated|no und segregated=yes|no ? path sagt im Prinzip das gleiche aus, wie cycleway und footway, es lässt aber die vorherschende Nutzung offen. -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/OSM-stadtisch-ausgelegt-Land-braucht-den-cyclefootway-tp5061112p5061197.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land braucht den cyclefootway
Noch eine Ergänzung: Den Ausbauzustand eines Weges kann man mit surface=*, smoothness=* und width=* angegeben werden. Weder path, noch cycleway noch footway machen irgendeine Aussage zum Ausbauzustand, außer dass er nicht für Autos gedacht ist. -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/OSM-stadtisch-ausgelegt-Land-braucht-den-cyclefootway-tp5061112p5061206.html Sent from the Germany mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Falsche(?) hamlets
Guenther Meyer d@sordidmusic.com [Sun, May 16, 2010 at 11:16:23AM CEST]: Am Samstag 15 Mai 2010, 23:51:58 schrieb Johannes Huesing: Weiler gehoeren immer irgendwo dazu. Hamlet gehoert fuer mich an eigenstaendige im Sinne von separat stehend ansiedlungen/gehoefte, aber ganz bestimmt nicht an einen Stadtteil. Was ist denn bei Dir ein Stadtteil? ein stadtteil ist fuer mich ein gebiet innerhalb der ortsgrenzen (die gelben schilder) einer groesseren stadt, das aus irgendeinem grund (fruehere eigene gemeinde, eigene verwaltung, ...) einen eigenen namen hat. ein weiler ist dagegen eine kleine, alleinstehende ansammlung von grundstuecken, die keine geschlossene ortschaft bilden. Hat ein Weiler also keinen Namen? Oder hat er einen Namen, der Grund dafür ist nur unbekannt? -- Johannes Hüsing There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture mailto:johan...@huesing.name from such a trifling investment of fact. http://derwisch.wikidot.com (Mark Twain, Life on the Mississippi) ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Falsche(?) hamlets
Am Sonntag 16 Mai 2010, 12:17:30 schrieb Johannes Huesing: Guenther Meyer d@sordidmusic.com [Sun, May 16, 2010 at 11:16:23AM CEST]: Am Samstag 15 Mai 2010, 23:51:58 schrieb Johannes Huesing: Weiler gehoeren immer irgendwo dazu. Hamlet gehoert fuer mich an eigenstaendige im Sinne von separat stehend ansiedlungen/gehoefte, aber ganz bestimmt nicht an einen Stadtteil. Was ist denn bei Dir ein Stadtteil? ein stadtteil ist fuer mich ein gebiet innerhalb der ortsgrenzen (die gelben schilder) einer groesseren stadt, das aus irgendeinem grund (fruehere eigene gemeinde, eigene verwaltung, ...) einen eigenen namen hat. ein weiler ist dagegen eine kleine, alleinstehende ansammlung von grundstuecken, die keine geschlossene ortschaft bilden. Hat ein Weiler also keinen Namen? Oder hat er einen Namen, der Grund dafür ist nur unbekannt? kannst du lesen?!? hab ich das geschrieben??? wahrscheinlich hat er einen namen, sonst koennte man ja nix hinschreiben. der name ist absolut irrelevant. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land brauch t den cyclefootway
Tirkon schrieb: Im Wiki wird beim cycleway betont, dass dieser straßenbegleitend sei. Meinst Du auf http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Key:cycleway Mit cycleway=* werden Fahrradwege beschrieben. Das sind Wege die neben der eigentlichen Straßen verlaufen und speziell gekennzeichnet sind. In diesem Fall benutzt man highway=* ganz normal für die eigentliche Straße und ergänzt cycleway=* um den Fahrradweg zu beschreiben. ...? Dann steht die Lösung doch im nächsten Absatz: Wenn man eigenständige Fahrradwege kennzeichnen möchte nimmt man stattdessen highway=cycleway. mit foot=yes|designated, wenn Du path nicht magst: Ich weiß, dass man für solche Fälle ein path verwenden kann. Das aber widerstrebt vielen Usern, die einen gewissen Ausbauzustand für Radfahrer und Fußgänger ähnlich der primary-Straßenklasse für Autostraßen damit verbinden möchten. plus surface=asphalt|compacted|paving_stones|... und smoothness=good|... Gruß Mueck ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Unterscheidung von Fahrrad/Fahrradfahren verboten
Am 16.05.2010 00:11, schrieb Heiko Jacobs: Anders kann es nur im nicht-öffentlichen Bereich aussehen, wo Fußgängern womöglich wirksam das Mitführen von Fahrzeugen untersagt werden könnte. Also eingezäunte Gelände oder Gebäude könnten sowas in der Hausordnung haben. Wer sowas taggen will, muss vermutlich ein tag erst noch erfinden dafür ;-) In der Tat handelt es sich um eine Einkaufspassage, also im nicht-StVO Bereich. Dort ist in der Hausordnung explizit das Fahren und das Schieben verboten. Räder dürfen somit überhaupt nicht in das Gebäude. Beste Grüße, Simon ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land braucht den cyclefootway
Tirkon glaubte zu wissen: Auch wenn es nicht wirklich hier rein gehört: Diese Beschilderung der Abkürzungen kann rechtlich wegen des abweichenden Verlaufes niemand davon abhalten, den Umweg über die Straße zu nehmen. Sind da hunderte von Wegen falsch beschildert, da nicht straßenbegleitend? Sind die Gesetze da von der Wirklichkeit überholt worden, in der auch solitäre und nicht nur straßenbegleitende Wege regelmässig so gekennzeichnet sind? Genau das. Kurzer Hintergrund: Die Benutzungspflicht darf nur angeordnet werden, um eine besondere Gefahrenstelle zu beseitigen. Für diese Gefahrenbeseitigung gibt es hohe Zuschüsse beim *Bau* des Weges. Da die Benutzungspflicht von einer Behörde angeordnet wird, ist man bisher davon ausgegangen, daß diese die Vorschriften[1] beachtet und die Benutzungspflicht nur den Vorgaben entsprechend angeordnet wird und es wurde nie nachgeschaut, wo die Benutzungspflicht eigentlich angeordnet wurde. Folge: Die Städte und Gemeinden sind schnell dahintergekommen, daß man sich so den Großteil der Baukosten abnehmen lassen kann, wenn man nur ein Blauschild an den Weg hängt. Was gerne übersehen wird: Die Wege müssen notfalls regelmäßig gesäubert und geräumt sowie Instand gehalten werden. Dafür gibt es keine Zuschüsse. Warum sich die Behörden meist hartnäckig weigern, eine einmal verhängte Benutzungspflicht wieder zurückzunehmen: Die erhaltenen Fördergelder müßten dann zurückgezahlt werden, was manche Kassen merklich leeren würde. [1] Dazu gehört einiges wie Mindestbreite, Fahrbahnbegleitend und einiges mehr. Das muß alles erfüllt sein, um eine benutzungspflicht verhängen zu dürfen. Für diese Fälle stört bei OSM die Annahme der Straßenbegleitung und des designated schon sehr, weil sie auf dem Land in der Praxis nicht stimmt. Hier in der Gegend scheinen die Blauschilder (auch von der Polizei) eher als Fahrrad frei angesehen zu werden und werden auch so verwendet. flo -- Die Schreibselfehler hab Ich jetzt mal oben entfernt. [WoKo in dag°] ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Stats OSMI Routing View 2010/05
Hi, André Riedel schrieb: André Riedel schrieb: Ich finde es immer noch Schade, dass Wege, welche mit einem Knoten mit noexit=yes enden, und Weg, welche mit highway=platform oder public_transport=platform verbunden sind, als Fehler angesehen werden! ab morgen sollten Knoten die mit highway=platform oder mit public_transport=platform verbunden sind, nicht mehr als Fehler angezeigt werden. Und hat sich deine Meinung zu ersteren Fall geändert? vielleicht ein wenig ;o) Bisher habe ich es so verstanden, das in fast allen Posts, die ich von anderen gelesen habe, sie das Tag noexit an den Way und nicht an die Node hängen. Wie du richtig schreibst, sieht es laut tagwatch etwas anders aus. Ich persönlich finde es eigentlich auch besser wenn es am Way und nicht an der Node vorhanden ist. Werde es am WE integrieren .. Danke. ist drin! Die Anzahl der Fehler hat sich aber nur um ca. 150 verringert. Haette gedacht das es mehr ausmachen wurde ... viele gruesse pascal ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Stats OSMI Routing View 2010/05
Am 16. Mai 2010 14:16 schrieb Pascal Neis pascal.n...@gmail.com: Hi, André Riedel schrieb: André Riedel schrieb: Ich finde es immer noch Schade, dass Wege, welche mit einem Knoten mit noexit=yes enden, und Weg, welche mit highway=platform oder public_transport=platform verbunden sind, als Fehler angesehen werden! ab morgen sollten Knoten die mit highway=platform oder mit public_transport=platform verbunden sind, nicht mehr als Fehler angezeigt werden. Und hat sich deine Meinung zu ersteren Fall geändert? vielleicht ein wenig ;o) Bisher habe ich es so verstanden, das in fast allen Posts, die ich von anderen gelesen habe, sie das Tag noexit an den Way und nicht an die Node hängen. Wie du richtig schreibst, sieht es laut tagwatch etwas anders aus. Ich persönlich finde es eigentlich auch besser wenn es am Way und nicht an der Node vorhanden ist. Werde es am WE integrieren .. Danke. ist drin! Die Anzahl der Fehler hat sich aber nur um ca. 150 verringert. Haette gedacht das es mehr ausmachen wurde ... :-/ Besser als nichts ;-) ABER bei den bisherigen False-Positives musste das Attribut immer am Weg stehen und hat vielleicht einige vor der Nutzung auf einen Knoten zurückgeschreckt. Mir ist noch ein Speziallfall aufgefallen, welcher das Routing zwar nicht beeinflusst, aber doch recht häufig auftritt. Ein Weg geht an ein Gebäude (oder einzelne Hausnummer) und endet dort (mit gemeinsamen Knoten). Diese Fälle könnten am besten noch herausgefiltert werden. Ciao André ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land brauch t den cyclefootway
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 02:32:08AM -0700, aighes wrote: Hallo, wie wäre es mit dem allgemeinen highway=path in Kombination mit bicycle=yes|designated|no, foot=yes|designated|no und segregated=yes|no ? path sagt im Prinzip das gleiche aus, wie cycleway und footway, es lässt aber die vorherschende Nutzung offen. Ich wohne auch auf dem Land - bei mir ist das alles cycleway - Ein cycleway=track ist straßenbegleitend und wird auf dem way der straße angelegt. Ein highway=cycleway ist ja immer ein eigenstaendiges objekt von daher ist der terminus des Straßenbegleitend da sicherlich uebertrieben und/oder falsch. Ein path ist wirklich ein Pfad - d.h. nichts befestigtes in meinen augen. D.h. wenn jden tag 30 Schulkinder auf dem selben weg durch den Wald stapfen dann ist das nach 3 Monate ein Path. Zum foot oder cycleway wirds erst dann wenn jemand das ggfs ausschildert oder befestigt. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de Es ist ein grobes Missverständnis und eine Fehlwahrnehmung, dem Staat im Internet Zensur- und Überwachungsabsichten zu unterstellen. - - Bundesminister Dr. Wolfgang Schäuble -- 10. Juli in Berlin signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land brauch t den cyclefootway
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 10:44:55AM +0200, Tirkon wrote: Für diese Fälle stört bei OSM die Annahme der Straßenbegleitung und des designated schon sehr, weil sie auf dem Land in der Praxis nicht stimmt. Dann nimm doch das Wiki nicht woertlich OSM ist in den Städten sehr gut aufgestellt. Es fehlt an einer besseren Abdeckung des ländlichen Raumes. Um dem beizukommen, mangelt es hier am griffigen Tag cyclefootway ohne Designierung, das nicht so heißen muss. In den Fällen, wenn diese Wege in aller Regel baulich getrennt sich übergangslos einer Hauptstraße nähern, kann man dann das designated hinzufügen. Das entspricht der praktischen Handhabung, wie sie von der Polizei durchgesetzt und den Kindern im Verkehrsunterricht gelehrt wird. Ich nutze dann wahlweise foot bzw cycleway + jeweils dem anderen foot/bicycle=yes Es kommt ja drauf an was man erreichen will. Ich moechte das eine routingsoftware das benutzen kann und das es in der Karte halbwegs vernuenftig auftaucht. D.h. wenn das eher fuer Radfahrer ist bzw eher von radfahrern benutzt wird ist das ein cycleway + foot=yes und sind das eher die Fußgaenger dann ists nen footway + bicycle. Beides erfuellt den tatbestand der routebarkeit und taucht beides in der Karte auf. Wenn mir jemand darlegt was denn der neu zu erschaffende Blumenstrauß an minderheitentags zusaetzlich bringt kann ich mein vorgehen ja nochmal ueberdenken. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de Es ist ein grobes Missverständnis und eine Fehlwahrnehmung, dem Staat im Internet Zensur- und Überwachungsabsichten zu unterstellen. - - Bundesminister Dr. Wolfgang Schäuble -- 10. Juli in Berlin signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Gemeindegrenzen und Straßennamen
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 12:27:42AM +0200, Heiko Jacobs wrote: Habe mal im Daten- und Kartendienst der LUBW gespickelt, die haben im Layer Natur und Landschaft bei Alle Schutzgebiete (vielleicht auch noch woanders, aber da schaue ich halt am meisten rein, weil mich öfters der Naturschutzstatus von Flächen interessiert) in höheren Zoomstufen Luftbilder mit Grundstücksgrenzen als Hintergrund statt topographischer Karten. Und demnach läuft die Grenze tatsächlich paar Meter neben der Straße und somit gibt's wirklich 5 m, wo die Straße namenlos oder unter falschen Namen in die Nachbargemeinde segelt (auch wenn die Grenze vermutlich wirklich zu weit westlich liegt oder die Straße zu weit östlich ... oder beides ... oder so ... es fehlen trotzdem die paar Meter) Da sich Straßennamenschilderaufstellungsbehörden vermutlich um diese paar Meter auch nicht groß kümmern, hilft die Vorortrecherche mit Schilderbegutachtung da vermutlich auch nicht ... Es gibt einfach Dinge auf dieser Welt, die sich einer perfekten Datenmodellierung entziehen ... Also - DIe Straßenlisten kommen oft von den Meldebehoerden die ja die Wahlbenachrichtigungen verschicken. D.h. wenn es da keine Personen gibt die in dem Ort gemeldet sind weil die _Haeuser_ nicht zum Gemeindegebiet gehoeren haben wir die nicht in der Liste aber in der Auswertung. Die Listen beziehen sich auf gemeldete Personen/Adressen, die auswertung kann aber nur Straßen auswerten. Und da gibt es eine kleine unschaerfe. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de Es ist ein grobes Missverständnis und eine Fehlwahrnehmung, dem Staat im Internet Zensur- und Überwachungsabsichten zu unterstellen. - - Bundesminister Dr. Wolfgang Schäuble -- 10. Juli in Berlin signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Gemeindegrenzen und Straßennamen
Walter Nordmann walter.nordm...@web.de wrote: addr:city bei der straße? Ich könnte mir Folgendes vorstellen: Ich versuche momentan, Ortsgrenzen vor Ort zu ermitteln und zu taggen. Wo die sich ungefähr befinden könnten, weiß ich selbst oder habe es in Karten irgendwann gelernt. Bestes Anzeichen sind natürlich Schilder, die aussagen, dass ein Ort endet und der andere beginnt. Eine andere Möglichkeit ist der Wechsel des Straßennamens auf durchgehender Strecke. Als schwächeren Anhaltspunkt nehme ich den Wechsel des Straßenbelages, eine deutliche Stoßstelle darin oder ein geografisches Merkmal, wie beispielsweise ein größerer kreuzender Bach. Bei uns in Ostfriesland sind beispielsweise größere Entwässerungsgräben (über die man nicht mehr stabspringen kann) beliebte Vorlagen für Ortsgrenzverläufe. Wenn sich das mit der ungefähren lokalen Einordnung der Grenze deckt, ist die Wahrscheinlichkeit hoch, dass sie dort verläuft. Ein Vergleich mit einer anderen Quelle gibt noch einmal Gewissheit. Um eine Grenze zusammenzutragen, muss ich an vielen Straßen messen. Die Punkte könnte man sich nach und nach in OSM notieren, bis der Verlauf einigermaßen verifiziert ist. Möglicherweise sind adress:city Tags an grenznahen Straßen solche Notizen, mit denen man nach und nach versucht, den Verlauf einzukreisen. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Gemeindegrenzen und Straßennamen
Tirkon tirko...@yahoo.de wrote: Walter Nordmann walter.nordm...@web.de wrote: addr:city bei der straße? Ich könnte mir Folgendes vorstellen: Ich versuche momentan, Ortsgrenzen vor Ort zu ermitteln und zu taggen. Wo die sich ungefähr befinden könnten, weiß ich selbst oder habe es in Karten irgendwann gelernt. Bestes Anzeichen sind natürlich Schilder, die aussagen, dass ein Ort endet und der andere beginnt. Eine andere Möglichkeit ist der Wechsel des Straßennamens auf durchgehender Strecke. Als schwächeren Anhaltspunkt nehme ich den Wechsel des Straßenbelages, eine deutliche Stoßstelle darin oder ein geografisches Merkmal, wie beispielsweise ein größerer kreuzender Bach. Bei uns in Ostfriesland sind beispielsweise größere Entwässerungsgräben (über die man nicht mehr stabspringen kann) beliebte Vorlagen für Ortsgrenzverläufe. Wenn sich das mit der ungefähren lokalen Einordnung der Grenze deckt, ist die Wahrscheinlichkeit hoch, dass sie dort verläuft. Ein Vergleich mit einer anderen Quelle gibt noch einmal Gewissheit. Um eine Grenze zusammenzutragen, muss ich an vielen Straßen messen. Die Punkte könnte man sich nach und nach in OSM notieren, bis der Verlauf einigermaßen verifiziert ist. Möglicherweise sind adress:city Tags an grenznahen Straßen solche Notizen, mit denen man nach und nach versucht, den Verlauf einzukreisen. Posting falsch interpretiert. Obiges vergessen! ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OSM städtisch ausgelegt. Land braucht den cyclefootway
Am 16. Mai 2010 14:48 schrieb Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de: On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 02:32:08AM -0700, aighes wrote: Hallo, wie wäre es mit dem allgemeinen highway=path in Kombination mit bicycle=yes|designated|no, foot=yes|designated|no und segregated=yes|no ? path sagt im Prinzip das gleiche aus, wie cycleway und footway, es lässt aber die vorherschende Nutzung offen. Ich wohne auch auf dem Land - bei mir ist das alles cycleway - Ein cycleway=track ist straßenbegleitend und wird auf dem way der straße angelegt. Ein highway=cycleway ist ja immer ein eigenstaendiges objekt von daher ist der terminus des Straßenbegleitend da sicherlich uebertrieben und/oder falsch. Ein path ist wirklich ein Pfad - d.h. nichts befestigtes in meinen augen. D.h. wenn jden tag 30 Schulkinder auf dem selben weg durch den Wald stapfen dann ist das nach 3 Monate ein Path. Zum foot oder cycleway wirds erst dann wenn jemand das ggfs ausschildert oder befestigt. Da im gleichen Atemzug von routingfähigkeit und guter Kartendarstellung redest, vermische bitte nicht deine Übersetzung von path zu Pfad mit der der Definition von highway=path. Ein highway=path ist dem cycleway und dem footway gleichwertig! Wenn du einen Trampelpfad beschreiben möchtest, nutze bitte highway=trail. Ciao André ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de