Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
Hi, On 05/28/2015 10:19 AM, Paweł Paprota wrote: But what exactly is the problem that you're trying to solve with this idea? I think that OSM is a database of local knowledge and culture, not of remote knowledge and culture added from afar. Therefore I find it out of place for OSM to see that objects like the London node receive a constant flow of edits from people whose only link to London is that they happen to speak a language in which London has a different name. I feel that there are two totally different planes of editing - one is what's on the ground in London, mapped by people in London, and the other is what name the Martian civilization has chosen to give to London, something in which Londoners have no say whatsoever. The name:xx tags are, if you will, the only tags for which the local mappers are not, and cannot be, the ultimate authority. And that's what makes name:xx stick out like a sore thumb for me; in my mind, OSM is first and foremost a project that lets the people control their map, instead of being told and labelled from afar. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
On 28/05/2015 10:30, Komяpa wrote: Hello, I'd like to share my story. We're making a new Global Map for World of Tanks game. Game is translated into many languages, of which Russian and English are most significant. Now we're in open beta, you can look at the map at https://ru.wargaming.net/globalmap/ To release the map, we need the whole map in Russian, and in English. For closed beta, we chose to enable a small subset of a map, 80 provinces, for which I manually added the translations: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/30451655 This changeset got reverted by SomeoneElse: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/30706979 Now we can't use OSM to render the map directly. Sure you can. You just need to combine OSM data with some other data (such as a list that you've previously created). The problem (described in some detail on my changeset above) is that the fact that somewhere like Abergavenny has two names (or three, if you count the old Latin name). Both Abergavenny and Y Fenni are verifiable on the ground, by looking at the Welcome to... sign on the roads in. Абергавенни does not appear on that sign. Ethnologue (http://www.ethnologue.com/world) says that there are 7000 languages in the world. Taginfo (http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=name) says that there are 45,000,000 names in OSM. It's a perfectly reasonable request for someone to ask can I have a map that shows place names displayed in my language / alphabet. It's not a reasonable request to ask OSM to store up to 7,000 variants against 45,000,000 names, when most of those objects simply do not have names in those languages. We don't duplicate absolutely everything that can possibly be gleaned (or calculated) about a place in OSM (e.g. from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abergavenny - there's no call for a king_charles_was_here=yes tag). Lots of people combine OSM data with other data (e.g. http://bombsight.org/ , which appeared on the news recently to highlight a news item) - that's why I asked up the thread for more details on how it might be done with wikidata. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
On Thursday 28 May 2015, Komяpa wrote: Let's take a case: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/286131994 - Slough, GB. Pronounced /ˈslaʊ/, which corresponds to russian Слау. Wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slough links to russian https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%83. That translation was added in 30451655 and deleted in 30706979. Automatically translated province in Russian is called Слоф, not Слау: https://ru.wargaming.net/globalmap/#province/slough - and we have no way to correct that, if we don't add name:ru for it to OSM. The question is if this is because the transliteration software is flawed (which is obviously a different problem) or the pronounciation is atypical and cannot be derived based on general rules by the software? Note in many cases different transliteration schemes exist for converting one language to another - esp. with British English vs. American English. In the opposite direction i know transliteration from Russian into Latin script varies a lot. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
On 2015-05-28 11:30, Komяpa wrote: How do we cover this use case in OpenStreetMap, with its eager-to-revert-names-in-languages-I-don't-speak users? I'm genuinely curious: How do people in Russia search for places that are not in Russia? If you search for London, do you search for London or do you search for Лондон? I know I am not searching for Москва, Новосибирск, or Владивосток when I need Moscow, Novosibirsk or Wladiwostok. I can't even type those characters. Wouldn't it be normal that placenames are transliterated? So I find it strange that properly transliterated names get removed from the database. To me that seems a very western[*]-centric view of things. [*] short for countries that use the latin alphabet And yes, looking at the OSM map of Russia or China I am lost. I can not read it. Okay, cyrillic I can read a little, Moscow I can find, but I can not find Beijing on the map, I have to use the search box. And when I do and look at the map, I can not read what places are around it. I think this is the biggest flaw of the OSM map that needs to be fixed. And for that you need transliterated names. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
El Jueves 28. mayo 2015 10.59.21 Steve Doerr escribió: There might be a case for adding pronunciations (of 'difficult' names at least) to the OSM database. Someone must have proposed a tagging scheme for this, surely? Yup. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Phonetics -- Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es i...@geonerd.org i...@mazemap.no ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
I'm genuinely curious: How do people in Russia search for places that are not in Russia? If you search for London, do you search for London or do you search for Лондон? I know I am not searching for Москва, Новосибирск, or Владивосток when I need Moscow, Novosibirsk or Wladiwostok. I can't even type those characters. Wouldn't it be normal that placenames are transliterated? People in Russia usually use russian names of objects. Culturally, until google maps was invented, every family in xUSSR seemed to have ~300-page world atlas, ( https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D1%82%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81_%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B0), that has all the names in the world in Russian. Not everybody can even read latin, at all. :) -- Darafei Komяpa Praliaskouski OSM BY Team - http://openstreetmap.by/ xmpp:m...@komzpa.net mailto:m...@komzpa.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
On Thursday 28 May 2015, Komяpa wrote: People in Russia usually use russian names of objects. Culturally, until google maps was invented, every family in xUSSR seemed to have ~300-page world atlas, ( https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D1%82%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81_%D0%BC%D 0%B8%D1%80%D0%B0), that has all the names in the world in Russian. Not everybody can even read latin, at all. :) I would consider places named in a 300 page world atlas to be fairly unproblematic for tagging with non-local name tags. These names are widely used, you will probably not have a problem finding a dozen uses of any of them in a larger library in Russia and verification is generally a non-issue (unless there are several competing writings of course for which we have alt_name:lang tags). But such an atlas will rarely contain more than 150k-200k names. As soon as you add significantly smaller and less important places verifiability gets difficult. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
Hello, I'd like to share my story. We're making a new Global Map for World of Tanks game. Game is translated into many languages, of which Russian and English are most significant. Now we're in open beta, you can look at the map at https://ru.wargaming.net/globalmap/ To release the map, we need the whole map in Russian, and in English. For closed beta, we chose to enable a small subset of a map, 80 provinces, for which I manually added the translations: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/30451655 This changeset got reverted by SomeoneElse: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/30706979 Now we can't use OSM to render the map directly. To go to Open Beta, as was suggested on IRC, we used automatic transcription modules, and did _not_ change anything in OSM. (if you think making automatical translation from not-known-for-sure language to russian is easy, go try it! :) Let's take a case: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/286131994 - Slough, GB. Pronounced /ˈslaʊ/, which corresponds to russian Слау. Wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slough links to russian https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%83. That translation was added in 30451655 and deleted in 30706979. Automatically translated province in Russian is called Слоф, not Слау: https://ru.wargaming.net/globalmap/#province/slough - and we have no way to correct that, if we don't add name:ru for it to OSM. This is just one case, I bet we have a lot more that I just didn't have time yet to investigate. So, this is the story. How do we cover this use case in OpenStreetMap, with its eager-to-revert-names-in-languages-I-don't-speak users? 2015-05-28 0:13 GMT+03:00 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Hi, we're seeing more and more name:xx tags on OSM objects. Not only are speakers of widely used languages adding their language tags all over the world; but rising interest in OSM also brings us to the attention of language lovers and speakers of minority languages. The less established a language is, the more committed its few proponents to have their language respected and recorded. The place node for London has 154 name tags as we speak, but there are several thousand languages in use on the planet, so there's still room for enhancement. Not only well-known tourist magnets carry foreign names; some dedicated language mappers have gone over and beyond the call of duty and added, for example, name:ru tags even to small villages: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name%3Aru#map (This is a matter currently under investigation by Data Working Group and it is relatively certain that not all 582,653 name:ru tags will remain.) It is difficult to judge when such foreign names have a right to be there, and when they're just inventions or name translations or transliterations. I guess we'll have to make rules on that somehow, but at the same time I dread doing it, and I wonder: If a place has a wikidata tag, could/should we then simply defer to Wikidata for names in other languages? We are a database of geodata and not one of international cultural heritage; even if London has a name in over 2000 languages, is OSM really the place to record these 2000 names? Would it not be better to record the wikidata link for London, and then (perhaps in co-operation with people at Wikidata) provide means for people doing map rendering to join OSM data with a separately-loaded translation table from Wikidata? We could then limit ourselves to using a name tag for the locally used name, or continue to allow a name:xx but only if these languages were actually used by the local population; throw in an int_name if you want (but some may say that's already an unfair privilege for users of English and the Latin alphabet). Anything else - i.e. names used for a place in other languages than the local ones - would be off-topic for OSM and should be recorded in Wikidata. Do you think Wikidata could play that role, and take the burden off of us? Or is Wikidata not mature enough for that yet, or even unsuitable? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Darafei Komяpa Praliaskouski OSM BY Team - http://openstreetmap.by/ xmpp:m...@komzpa.net mailto:m...@komzpa.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
2015-05-28 11:41 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: But let's not get sidetracked, that's a different discussion from the Wikidata question. I just hope that Wikidata doesn't list New Brige as the English name of Pont Neuf or else they have a problem ;) actually they do for Spanish and Catalan: www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q335277 I guess they do have a problem now? Another issue that can be seen here: nobody will want this Puente Nuevo (París) as a label for a bridge on a map (París) Funny ah? Every single entity in wikidata I have looked at had some issues in one or the other way, I believe we would get more problems than we would solve. and impose our entity structure on them, or it won't work in some cases (and if it doesn't work in some case, it doesn't work at all). I don't agree. If we could offload 99.99% of all name:xx tags to Wikidata and keep them only in edge cases like your Scalinata di Trinità dei Monti, why not? Why would a few cases in which name:xx tags remain ruin the whole scheme? This all depends in the end on the implementation, but exceptions are always bad (for the mapper, because he has to be aware of them, and it raises complexity, for the data consumers because of similar reasons). I don't want to discuss whether Berlin is a metropolis or not, what I want to point out is that there seem to be different criteria defined for different languages: You're listing some interesting shortcomings of Wikidata that I weren't aware of. However these would not, in my opinion, bar us from using Wikidata as a name repository for rendering; if you open up this can of worms for names, there will soon be the desire to extend the concept if a mapper is of the opinion that no matching Wikidata object exists for an OSM feature, then they shouldn't use a wikidata tag, that much is clear! I believe this is a bit naive, if wikidata becomes a first class citizen in OSM people will try very hard to find something that fits more or less, they will not accept that there is no such entity in wikidata. I agree that tag lists of hundreds of names in different languages aren't very handy to look through, They're also very hard to verify; and verifiability is important for OSM. I've seen small villages in England which had a name and a name:ru tag, and the only occurrence of the name:ru tag on a web search was on a dubious Russian weather and events in random city page. they are simple to verify when they are in your own language, it's a problem of presentation of the tags to the user (and filtering out from presentation those name tags in languages the user doesn't know and can't verify therefore). When there are many tags it is generally more difficult to spot errors or problems, because of the sheer quantity. When is a name a name? that's a general problem, that cannot be answered universally, and that created and creates continuous disputes and inconsistencies throughout the years of OSM's existence. Is Friseur (haircutter) a name if it's the only writing on the sign? Is the correct name for the administrative entity of Berlin Berlin or Land Berlin? And if it's Land Berlin, shouldn't we have 2 distinct objects then, one for the geographic place Berlin and one for the administrative entity Land Berlin? Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
On Thu, 28 May 2015 12:11:32 +0200 Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote: On 2015-05-28 11:30, Komяpa wrote: How do we cover this use case in OpenStreetMap, with its eager-to-revert-names-in-languages-I-don't-speak users? I'm genuinely curious: How do people in Russia search for places that are not in Russia? If you search for London, do you search for London or do you search for Лондон? I am from Poland and I am typically looking by Polish name. For example I was unable to find Nova Scotia on Nominatim because I was unaware what is the local name. I used Polish Nowa Szkocja. After my search failed I located this place using other means and added name:pl tag ( http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/390558 in http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/20558121 ). Further complicating such edits by moving it to Wikidata or somewhere else is in my opinion a bad idea. It is also a bad idea to add thousands of names without a really good source and verification. Especially automated adding name:xx based on transliteration alone is a terrible idea that should be reverted once spotted - sometimes there is a separate name in foreign language, with difference going beyond transliteration. What may be done is to improve editor interface to do not display 100+ name:xx tags for places like London. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
On 28/05/2015 10:30, Komяpa wrote: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/286131994 - Slough, GB. Pronounced /ˈslaʊ/, which corresponds to russian Слау. Wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slough links to russian https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%83. That translation was added in 30451655 and deleted in 30706979. Automatically translated province in Russian is called Слоф, not Слау: https://ru.wargaming.net/globalmap/#province/slough - and we have no way to correct that, if we don't add name:ru for it to OSM. There might be a case for adding pronunciations (of 'difficult' names at least) to the OSM database. Someone must have proposed a tagging scheme for this, surely? -- Steve --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
On 28/05/2015, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: It is my impression that a large proportion of name:xx tags in OSM are added by naming specialists who do little else than large scale name additions. Nothing wrong with that, a lot of OSM contributors specialize in some type of data. it would probably not be too much to ask for them to indulge Wikidata instead of OSM. Probably not. If we could offload 99.99% of all name:xx tags to Wikidata and keep them only in edge cases like your Scalinata di Trinità dei Monti, why not? Why would a few cases in which name:xx tags remain ruin the whole scheme? I really like the idea of offloading translation work to wikidata, but I see important issues : 1) Consuming the data at scale is not trivial. Querying wikidata API for each osm object with a wikidata link would kill performance. Consumers would need to mirror wikidata (with some luck just a dump of Id-names) and keep it as up to date as the osm data. 1.2) It'd be a great thing to do regardless of what OSM decides about its name:CC tags. But OSM shouldn't change its behavior until 1 or more major rendering, geocoding, and routing projects have implemented the workflow and come back to talk about it. 2) The cutoff for which name:CC belongs into OSM or not is arbitrary. Ireland's first official language is Irish, but in most you won't find anybody who speaks mainly Irish (yet we hope to reach 100% name:ga coverage in OSM). At the other end of the scale, London is one of the most cosmopolitain city in the world, so there's a fair chance that all 154 London names in OSM correspond to the native language of somebody currently living there. 3) Contributing to OSM is already very hard: most people in OSM's target audience of people whi have VGI to contribute are not tech-savvy. Raising the bar by making wikidata (with its different UI and community style) doesn't sound like a good idea. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
On 28/05/2015, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 28/05/2015, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: If we could offload 99.99% of all name:xx tags to Wikidata and keep them only in edge cases like your Scalinata di Trinità dei Monti, why not? Why would a few cases in which name:xx tags remain ruin the whole scheme? I really like the idea of offloading translation work to wikidata, BTW, the usual way that OSM offloads work from other projects is by importing said work into OSM... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
W dniu 28.05.2015 14:13, Martin Koppenhoefer napisał(a): there are a lot of problems (you can read about them in this thread) and yes, administrative entities, especially the basic ones like admin_level 2-4, are easiest, you will encounter more problems with different objects like geographic places and other pois. I just hoped for reading it like: What's the problem with using Wikidata as a helper/base for our data, like I showed it in this (counter)example?, but that was so naive in a heated discussion like this one... =} I'm aware of many specific problems (you can also read it in my posts, not only in this thread), but I just showed a way we can handle them (editor asking if this is the object you think of and if that's the proper name of it in your language). We don't have to use Wikidata directly - there are many technical solutions we could use with general linking OSM data (or OSMdata, as proposed) with Wikidata while keeping the differences and synchronizing when it's ready. So, again: why not to use as much easy, low hanging data as it's possible and suitable for us? -- The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags down [A. Cohen] ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
On 28/05/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Another issue that can be seen here: nobody will want this Puente Nuevo (París) as a label for a bridge on a map (París) Funny ah? Every single entity in wikidata I have looked at had some issues in one or the other way, I believe we would get more problems than we would solve. The issue here is that these strings are the name of the wikipedia article in various language, which is *not* the same as the name of the location in various languages. Wikipedia likes to add some disambiguation text, which we do not want in OSM. On 27/05/2015, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q84 You can see its names in various languages by clicking the Labels list tab (then note slidebar) Call me stupid, but I don't see any clickable label list tab ? The closest thing I see is the list of wikipedia articles, which has the problem mentioned above. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
čet, 28. svi 2015. 00:11 David Cuenca Tudela dacu...@gmail.com je napisao: It would be great to have a dedicated wikibase install just for geographic names, like GeoNames but part of openstreetmap. Such database can be linked to Wikidata and then you can also have items for every geographic object. I guess it is hard to make it happen, otherwise it would be done already. I don't think it's that hard. Wikibase is just an addon for mediawiki, it shouldn't be that complicated to install. We could use that database for objects that aren't notable enough for Wikidata. They would get a tag OSMData=Q25446 or something like that. Janko ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 8:33 PM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 28/05/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Another issue that can be seen here: nobody will want this Puente Nuevo (París) as a label for a bridge on a map (París) Funny ah? Every single entity in wikidata I have looked at had some issues in one or the other way, I believe we would get more problems than we would solve. The issue here is that these strings are the name of the wikipedia article in various language, which is *not* the same as the name of the location in various languages. Wikipedia likes to add some disambiguation text, which we do not want in OSM. Note: For many Wikidata items, there are 2 lists: a list of links to various language Wikipedia articles (this powers the interwiki links in Wikipedia), and a list of name translations. These two lists do not correspond exactly because the Wikipedia article title may often have a disambiguating string. For example: The city of Paris in Texas, USA: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q830149 (JSON version, so you can see the translations: https://www.wikidata.org/entity/Q830149.json ) The English label for this Wikidata item is Paris, while the English Wikipedia article title is Paris, Texas. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
On 28/05/2015 16:38, Andrew Guertin wrote: A quick internet search shows plenty of results for Абергавенни, including Wikipedia, hotel booking sites, and Harry Potter websites, and by looking at Google's book results, you can see that it's been in use since at least the 1800s. And with just a few minutes' look, I found someone from the next city over using the name[1]. I understand this was just an example, but it seems to show the opposite of what you wanted. The town with the English name Abergavenny also has a Russian name Абергавенни, which is in use by locals, and has been established for hundreds of years. No, it does not. Abergavenny / Y Fenni has actual names that people from there use to describe the place (and appears on signs) in two languages; Абергавенни is merely a translation of one of them. It's not verifiable on the ground. There is a fundamental difference between an actual name for a place and a translation of one of those names - it's that distinction that we would lose by populating name:ru, name:xx or whatever alongside name:cy and name:en. The russian-language link talking about Abergavenny Food Festival does indeed use the word Абергавенни- and that's a translation of Abergavenny in that message (they even put Abergavenny in brackets afterwards to make it clear that that's what it is - it's clearly not guaranteed to be understood on its own). If Абергавенни is added as name:ru for Abergavenny, how would we tell the real names (the ones that people have historically used locally to refer to the place) from the tranlations? Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
2015-05-28 13:56 GMT+02:00 Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl: So what's the problem? there are a lot of problems (you can read about them in this thread) and yes, administrative entities, especially the basic ones like admin_level 2-4, are easiest, you will encounter more problems with different objects like geographic places and other pois. Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
Hello, name:pronunciation, as mentioned on that page, is in use in a few problems, and would surely solve the Slough problem: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/10021975/history (though John Betjeman's idea might have been better) Would you please recommend a tool to transform name:pronunciation into russian cyrillic name? (and, if possible, for other languages.) In fact, what really needed is a tool (csv, database field, tag, bulk API, whatever) that will quickly return a name of object in a given language, even if it's absent in OSM data, integrated at least with osm2pgsql. (generation of our russian-only map took a couple of days, and we had to limit number of labels to finish it at all - keep in mind our map is limited to z10). Until then, people will keep adding name:xx to objects regardless of what anybody thinks of it, as it's the only realistic way to render multilingual map now. -- Darafei Komяpa Praliaskouski OSM BY Team - http://openstreetmap.by/ xmpp:m...@komzpa.net mailto:m...@komzpa.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
On 05/28/2015 07:07 AM, SomeoneElse wrote: On 28/05/2015 10:30, Komяpa wrote: Hello, I'd like to share my story. We're making a new Global Map for World of Tanks game. Game is translated into many languages, of which Russian and English are most significant. Now we're in open beta, you can look at the map at https://ru.wargaming.net/globalmap/ To release the map, we need the whole map in Russian, and in English. For closed beta, we chose to enable a small subset of a map, 80 provinces, for which I manually added the translations: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/30451655 This changeset got reverted by SomeoneElse: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/30706979 Now we can't use OSM to render the map directly. Sure you can. You just need to combine OSM data with some other data (such as a list that you've previously created). The problem (described in some detail on my changeset above) is that the fact that somewhere like Abergavenny has two names (or three, if you count the old Latin name). Both Abergavenny and Y Fenni are verifiable on the ground, by looking at the Welcome to... sign on the roads in. Абергавенни does not appear on that sign. A quick internet search shows plenty of results for Абергавенни, including Wikipedia, hotel booking sites, and Harry Potter websites, and by looking at Google's book results, you can see that it's been in use since at least the 1800s. And with just a few minutes' look, I found someone from the next city over using the name[1]. I understand this was just an example, but it seems to show the opposite of what you wanted. The town with the English name Abergavenny also has a Russian name Абергавенни, which is in use by locals, and has been established for hundreds of years. Ethnologue (http://www.ethnologue.com/world) says that there are 7000 languages in the world. Taginfo (http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=name) says that there are 45,000,000 names in OSM. It's a perfectly reasonable request for someone to ask can I have a map that shows place names displayed in my language / alphabet. It's not a reasonable request to ask OSM to store up to 7,000 variants against 45,000,000 names, when most of those objects simply do not have names in those languages. While your exact words here aren't wrong, I think you're severely underestimating what objects have names in what languages. Russia and the UK are major world powers that have had a lot of interaction as both allies and enemies, economically, militarily, and culturally, and there are tens to hundreds of thousands of people who were born in Russia living in the UK[2]. It would be pretty absurd to for place names NOT to exist, and as shown above the evidence shows that they do exist and are in use. For that reason I think the revert was wrong, and the edit should be allowed to be re-performed. --Andrew [1] http://kuking.net/my/viewtopic.php?t=12946 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_the_United_Kingdom ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
Hi, we're seeing more and more name:xx tags on OSM objects. Not only are speakers of widely used languages adding their language tags all over the world; but rising interest in OSM also brings us to the attention of language lovers and speakers of minority languages. The less established a language is, the more committed its few proponents to have their language respected and recorded. The place node for London has 154 name tags as we speak, but there are several thousand languages in use on the planet, so there's still room for enhancement. Not only well-known tourist magnets carry foreign names; some dedicated language mappers have gone over and beyond the call of duty and added, for example, name:ru tags even to small villages: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name%3Aru#map (This is a matter currently under investigation by Data Working Group and it is relatively certain that not all 582,653 name:ru tags will remain.) It is difficult to judge when such foreign names have a right to be there, and when they're just inventions or name translations or transliterations. I guess we'll have to make rules on that somehow, but at the same time I dread doing it, and I wonder: If a place has a wikidata tag, could/should we then simply defer to Wikidata for names in other languages? We are a database of geodata and not one of international cultural heritage; even if London has a name in over 2000 languages, is OSM really the place to record these 2000 names? Would it not be better to record the wikidata link for London, and then (perhaps in co-operation with people at Wikidata) provide means for people doing map rendering to join OSM data with a separately-loaded translation table from Wikidata? We could then limit ourselves to using a name tag for the locally used name, or continue to allow a name:xx but only if these languages were actually used by the local population; throw in an int_name if you want (but some may say that's already an unfair privilege for users of English and the Latin alphabet). Anything else - i.e. names used for a place in other languages than the local ones - would be off-topic for OSM and should be recorded in Wikidata. Do you think Wikidata could play that role, and take the burden off of us? Or is Wikidata not mature enough for that yet, or even unsuitable? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
Hi Fred, Great question. I feel that we should link to wikidata and this is a good example of why. There are lots of things that are in wikidata that are not suitable for OpenStreetMap tags but could be used by creative folk in a data maps mashup. Looking at the entry for London [1] I see population over time, previous mayors, sister cities and even a list of notable people who were born there. It also has all the language names via it's links to wikipedia articles in each language. For the name:ru example do we know how these were added? Was it by just a few people? If so we could ask them if they'd be happy for their contribution to be added to wikidata under it's CC0 license. This could be a nice little way of promoting ties between wikidata and OSM and hopefully we'd both benefit from a few more contributors. Concerns include whether wikidata pages get removed if they are not deemed to be noteworthy enough. One solution would be work with wikidata to create a tool that queries OSM for use of a wikdata Q value before removing suspected non-noteworthy pages. My other concern is around licenses. We should not dictate that this data is not for OpenStreetMap, please use wikidata if the contributor prefers OSM's share alike and attribution license. Best regards, Rob [1] http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q84 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
On 27 May 2015 at 22:13, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: we're seeing more and more name:xx tags on OSM objects. The place node for London has 154 name tags as we speak FYI, the equivalent Wikidata item is: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q84 You can see its names in various languages by clicking the Labels list tab (then note slidebar) It is difficult to judge when such foreign names have a right to be there, and when they're just inventions or name translations or transliterations. Transliteratons are still useful to non-native speakers. If a place has a wikidata tag, could/should we then simply defer to Wikidata for names in other languages? Yes/ probably. We are a database of geodata and not one of international cultural heritage; even if London has a name in over 2000 languages, is OSM really the place to record these 2000 names? Would it not be better to record the wikidata link for London, and then (perhaps in co-operation with people at Wikidata) provide means for people doing map rendering to join OSM data with a separately-loaded translation table from Wikidata? A demonstrator, using Wikidata labels, is: http://googleknowledge.github.io/qlabel/demo/map/ (choose select language). Coders might enjoy viewing the source code. We could then limit ourselves to using a name tag for the locally used name, or continue to allow a name:xx but only if these languages were actually used by the local population; throw in an int_name if you want (but some may say that's already an unfair privilege for users of English and the Latin alphabet). Anything else - i.e. names used for a place in other languages than the local ones - would be off-topic for OSM and should be recorded in Wikidata. Exactly. Do you think Wikidata could play that role, and take the burden off of us? Or is Wikidata not mature enough for that yet, or even unsuitable? While it continues to develop, it is already mature enough, suitable and available for this purpose -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
I agree that OSM is not the proper place to record every possible translation of every place name. And I think that Wikidata should be that proper place and just leave the few name:xx tags in place for the major languages that are spoken in that place, and only if the name is not a straight-up transliteration. A possible problem is that currently, Wikidata notability policy[1] means that Wikidata will only contain items for notable objects/entities/concepts. (But note that Wikidata is much, much more inclusive than Wikipedia—Wikidata will contain vastly more items than Wikipedia has articles.) This means that not all buildings, streets, and other objects that we have in OSM will have corresponding Wikidata items. [1] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Notability On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 5:13 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, we're seeing more and more name:xx tags on OSM objects. Not only are speakers of widely used languages adding their language tags all over the world; but rising interest in OSM also brings us to the attention of language lovers and speakers of minority languages. The less established a language is, the more committed its few proponents to have their language respected and recorded. The place node for London has 154 name tags as we speak, but there are several thousand languages in use on the planet, so there's still room for enhancement. Not only well-known tourist magnets carry foreign names; some dedicated language mappers have gone over and beyond the call of duty and added, for example, name:ru tags even to small villages: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name%3Aru#map (This is a matter currently under investigation by Data Working Group and it is relatively certain that not all 582,653 name:ru tags will remain.) It is difficult to judge when such foreign names have a right to be there, and when they're just inventions or name translations or transliterations. I guess we'll have to make rules on that somehow, but at the same time I dread doing it, and I wonder: If a place has a wikidata tag, could/should we then simply defer to Wikidata for names in other languages? We are a database of geodata and not one of international cultural heritage; even if London has a name in over 2000 languages, is OSM really the place to record these 2000 names? Would it not be better to record the wikidata link for London, and then (perhaps in co-operation with people at Wikidata) provide means for people doing map rendering to join OSM data with a separately-loaded translation table from Wikidata? We could then limit ourselves to using a name tag for the locally used name, or continue to allow a name:xx but only if these languages were actually used by the local population; throw in an int_name if you want (but some may say that's already an unfair privilege for users of English and the Latin alphabet). Anything else - i.e. names used for a place in other languages than the local ones - would be off-topic for OSM and should be recorded in Wikidata. Do you think Wikidata could play that role, and take the burden off of us? Or is Wikidata not mature enough for that yet, or even unsuitable? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
OpenStreetMap is the spatial representation of the world - wouldn't it make sense then to also store the translations for locations in OpenStreetMap? If there are storage or editor UI issues, would it be worthwhile solving them to enable translation? On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: I agree that OSM is not the proper place to record every possible translation of every place name. And I think that Wikidata should be that proper place and just leave the few name:xx tags in place for the major languages that are spoken in that place, and only if the name is not a straight-up transliteration. A possible problem is that currently, Wikidata notability policy[1] means that Wikidata will only contain items for notable objects/entities/concepts. (But note that Wikidata is much, much more inclusive than Wikipedia—Wikidata will contain vastly more items than Wikipedia has articles.) This means that not all buildings, streets, and other objects that we have in OSM will have corresponding Wikidata items. [1] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Notability On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 5:13 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, we're seeing more and more name:xx tags on OSM objects. Not only are speakers of widely used languages adding their language tags all over the world; but rising interest in OSM also brings us to the attention of language lovers and speakers of minority languages. The less established a language is, the more committed its few proponents to have their language respected and recorded. The place node for London has 154 name tags as we speak, but there are several thousand languages in use on the planet, so there's still room for enhancement. Not only well-known tourist magnets carry foreign names; some dedicated language mappers have gone over and beyond the call of duty and added, for example, name:ru tags even to small villages: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name%3Aru#map (This is a matter currently under investigation by Data Working Group and it is relatively certain that not all 582,653 name:ru tags will remain.) It is difficult to judge when such foreign names have a right to be there, and when they're just inventions or name translations or transliterations. I guess we'll have to make rules on that somehow, but at the same time I dread doing it, and I wonder: If a place has a wikidata tag, could/should we then simply defer to Wikidata for names in other languages? We are a database of geodata and not one of international cultural heritage; even if London has a name in over 2000 languages, is OSM really the place to record these 2000 names? Would it not be better to record the wikidata link for London, and then (perhaps in co-operation with people at Wikidata) provide means for people doing map rendering to join OSM data with a separately-loaded translation table from Wikidata? We could then limit ourselves to using a name tag for the locally used name, or continue to allow a name:xx but only if these languages were actually used by the local population; throw in an int_name if you want (but some may say that's already an unfair privilege for users of English and the Latin alphabet). Anything else - i.e. names used for a place in other languages than the local ones - would be off-topic for OSM and should be recorded in Wikidata. Do you think Wikidata could play that role, and take the burden off of us? Or is Wikidata not mature enough for that yet, or even unsuitable? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
I hope the notability hotheads aren't around in Wikidata... had enough hard time with them in English Wikipedia. I like the concept and if easy solutions are available for tilemakers to join then I'm all for it... as long as Deletionists don't run amok. Upphafleg skilaboð Frá: Rob Nickerson rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com Dagsetning: 27/05/2015 21:51 (GMT+00:00) Til: talk@openstreetmap.org Efni: Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation? Hi Fred, Great question. I feel that we should link to wikidata and this is a good example of why. There are lots of things that are in wikidata that are not suitable for OpenStreetMap tags but could be used by creative folk in a data maps mashup. Looking at the entry for London [1] I see population over time, previous mayors, sister cities and even a list of notable people who were born there. It also has all the language names via it's links to wikipedia articles in each language. For the name:ru example do we know how these were added? Was it by just a few people? If so we could ask them if they'd be happy for their contribution to be added to wikidata under it's CC0 license. This could be a nice little way of promoting ties between wikidata and OSM and hopefully we'd both benefit from a few more contributors. Concerns include whether wikidata pages get removed if they are not deemed to be noteworthy enough. One solution would be work with wikidata to create a tool that queries OSM for use of a wikdata Q value before removing suspected non-noteworthy pages. My other concern is around licenses. We should not dictate that this data is not for OpenStreetMap, please use wikidata if the contributor prefers OSM's share alike and attribution license. Best regards, Rob [1] http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q84 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?
It would be great to have a dedicated wikibase install just for geographic names, like GeoNames but part of openstreetmap. Such database can be linked to Wikidata and then you can also have items for every geographic object. I guess it is hard to make it happen, otherwise it would be done already. Cheers, Micru On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 11:57 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: I agree that OSM is not the proper place to record every possible translation of every place name. And I think that Wikidata should be that proper place and just leave the few name:xx tags in place for the major languages that are spoken in that place, and only if the name is not a straight-up transliteration. A possible problem is that currently, Wikidata notability policy[1] means that Wikidata will only contain items for notable objects/entities/concepts. (But note that Wikidata is much, much more inclusive than Wikipedia—Wikidata will contain vastly more items than Wikipedia has articles.) This means that not all buildings, streets, and other objects that we have in OSM will have corresponding Wikidata items. [1] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Notability On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 5:13 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, we're seeing more and more name:xx tags on OSM objects. Not only are speakers of widely used languages adding their language tags all over the world; but rising interest in OSM also brings us to the attention of language lovers and speakers of minority languages. The less established a language is, the more committed its few proponents to have their language respected and recorded. The place node for London has 154 name tags as we speak, but there are several thousand languages in use on the planet, so there's still room for enhancement. Not only well-known tourist magnets carry foreign names; some dedicated language mappers have gone over and beyond the call of duty and added, for example, name:ru tags even to small villages: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name%3Aru#map (This is a matter currently under investigation by Data Working Group and it is relatively certain that not all 582,653 name:ru tags will remain.) It is difficult to judge when such foreign names have a right to be there, and when they're just inventions or name translations or transliterations. I guess we'll have to make rules on that somehow, but at the same time I dread doing it, and I wonder: If a place has a wikidata tag, could/should we then simply defer to Wikidata for names in other languages? We are a database of geodata and not one of international cultural heritage; even if London has a name in over 2000 languages, is OSM really the place to record these 2000 names? Would it not be better to record the wikidata link for London, and then (perhaps in co-operation with people at Wikidata) provide means for people doing map rendering to join OSM data with a separately-loaded translation table from Wikidata? We could then limit ourselves to using a name tag for the locally used name, or continue to allow a name:xx but only if these languages were actually used by the local population; throw in an int_name if you want (but some may say that's already an unfair privilege for users of English and the Latin alphabet). Anything else - i.e. names used for a place in other languages than the local ones - would be off-topic for OSM and should be recorded in Wikidata. Do you think Wikidata could play that role, and take the burden off of us? Or is Wikidata not mature enough for that yet, or even unsuitable? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Etiamsi omnes, ego non ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
