Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Andrew K. Lovetski]

Hello, The Bat Users!

AM>> I was experimenting with PMMail and Notetab Pro. I didn't like
AM>> what was happening. I had to shut down Notetab Pro manually each
AM>> time and then allow it to catch the next message for reading or
AM>> composing. Although Notetab Pro supports multiple document
AM>> editing per instance I couldn't get PMMail to use this feature. I
AM>> ditched the idea.

OZ> I like UltraEdit. It is multiwindow and is almost always resides in my
OZ> tray.  If  I will have to close external editor to let TB! know that I
OZ> have  finished  message  editing  -- I don't like the idea of using my
OZ> favorite editor within TB!

Oh, just another idea how TB could see if the editing was over: many
editors open the file exclusively and do not allow to open it for
editing in other programs (MS Word, for example) or delete it. So TB
could check if the file is still opened exclusively and send the
message just when the file gets closed.

Another way is to see when the file gets updated - and Windows can
tell you about this itself, you won't need any periodical checking.
And if there were no updates, the message should not be sent at all
(or get modified - if we talk about editing a draft).

Two approaches combined - and we seem to get a system working with
almost every editor... May be, though, I'm missing smth...

-- 
Best regards,
Andrewmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Using The Bat! 1.38e S/N E9230B5C
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Re: Exporting Query

[Andrew K. Lovetski]

Hello, The Bat Users!

CEG> I want to export some of my emails to MS Outlook. How do I got
CEG> about this as the only 2 export file type available are Unix and
CEG> RFC-822 message files.

Outlook supports RFC-822 message files, I suppose. If not, rename them
into *.EML - then it will understand them, because old MS Internet
mail worked with them pretty well.

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under Russian Windows 95 4.0 Build   B

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Re: New User Questions

[Andrew K. Lovetski]

Hello, The Bat Users!

 
LW>   One final question - again the answer is quite simple (I hope).
LW>   I need to see my messages collapsed, in subject order, and
LW>   within the subject all the replies in the time which they were
LW>   sent in chronological order.

LW>   At present the first two criteria are met, but  the messages are not
LW> sorted in the required order, although I   believe I have selected the
LW> correct options (Sort by Subject / descending order, also view threads
LW> by subject).  By the way, anybody else notice that the selection
LW> "Descending Order" needs selecting every time, and does not remain
LW> "sticky"?

Options|View threads by|Subject (or references - I prefer the latter).
This will arrange messages in threads. Then you have to select only
one sorting you need (in your message you stated you need both - by
subject and by time - this is impossible in the current version, but
such a wish was suggested a long time ago). I use Sorting by Creation
Time, Descending. BTW, descending _is_ sticky here. Try changing the
order by clicking on the column header. One click - you get ascending
order, another click - you get descending order.

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Andrewmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Using The Bat! 1.38e S/N E9230B5C
under Russian Windows 95 4.0 Build   B

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Re: mailto: in Signatures

[Nick Andriash]

On Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 9:30:37 PM, Keith Russell wrote:

> Unless someone points me to some email clients that recognize only the
> "mailto:" format, I plan to stop using it.

Two very popular E-Mail Programs come to mind Keith... MS Outlook and Eudora
Pro, neither of which will recognize a signature as a clickable link unless
you include the MailTo: with them.



Nick

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Re: mailto: in Signatures

[Keith Russell]

Hello, fellow Bat-lovers.

On Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 8:50:14 PM, Nick wrote:

[snip]

> Not necessarily Keith. There are some very popular Programs that do not
> recognize [EMAIL PROTECTED] as a 'clickable' E-Mail address. Angel pointed
> out AOL as one of them, and I know that Eudora and MS Outlook Programs do
> not, while Agent and OE do, so I don't know why some do, and some don't.

Ah...that's what I was looking for. You're sure that Eudora and
Outlook don't? If so, that puts a new light on things.

> You've brought up a good point though, and as Angel has suggested, I've
> since taken my MailTo:'s out of the templates I use for TBUDL at least. :o)

Good idea

-- 
 Keith Russell
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Re: mailto: in Signatures

[Keith Russell]

Hello, fellow Bat-lovers.

On Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 3:51:04 PM, Angel wrote:

> On Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 14:42:55 ,Keith scribbled:

KR>>   Is there really any good reason for including the "mailto," since,
KR>>   as far as I can tell, most email clients will recognize an email
KR>>   address without the prefix?
> I may not have the correct answer, but I don't use the mailto: in my TBUDL-list 
>templates
> simply because I know the readers will be using TB! (or they should be LOL)

But, Angel, you don't have either in this message, either!

> But when
> writing email using my "regular" template, I use mailto: as well as
> Angel
> simply because some people I write to users who use various email clients, such as 
>AOL..
> which isn't configured for a clickable link such as [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
> (At least thats what I heard) I implement the same theory when typing URLs.

Actually, I just sent a message to an AOL address and included both
email link formats; neither one was highlighted. So I think I'd choose
the simpler form in that case, too.

Unless someone points me to some email clients that recognize only the
"mailto:" format, I plan to stop using it.

Thanks for the reply.

-- 
 Keith Russell
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: mailto: in Signatures

[Keith Russell]

Hello, fellow Bat-lovers.

On Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 3:59:39 PM, Steve wrote:

> Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 2:42:55 PM, Keith wrote:
>>   address without the prefix? (In other words, won't
>>   "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" work as well as "mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]" and be
>>   less confusing to non-techies?)

> Yes.  :)

Thanks. It's great to have Steve Lamb agree with oneself! 8-)


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 Keith Russell
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Re: mailto: in Signatures

[Keith Russell]

Hello, fellow Bat-lovers.

On Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 3:52:53 PM, Nick wrote:

> In Reference to "mailto: in Signatures" From Keith Russell:

KR>> (In other words, won't "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" work as well as
KR>> "mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]" and be less confusing to non-techies?)

> Hey!! Don't go getting all logical and stuff on us.  If you want to
> use common sense you can just take that elsewhere, bub!

> ;-)

> Actually, the same thought dripped outta my head just the other day.

As they say about great minds

Actually, I found it interesting that neither form appears in your
signature ;-).


-- 
 Keith Russell
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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An old bug: tooltip displays wrong number of selected messages

[John Sullivan]

This one has been around for a while now, even though I'm sure it was
listed as fixed in one set of release notes. I thought I'd just point
out that it's still there ;-)

Dead easy to reproduce: in the message list hit the End key (focus
moves to bottom of list, and only last message is selected.), then Del
(selected message is moved to trash, and immediately previous message
is selected.

Now you should find that the tooltip reports "2 messages selected".
This persists until you change folder or hit Escape.

John
-- 
you gave me something that i could touch in a world where i'd had too much
something i could feel with my broken hands full of lost ideals but soon i'm
returning to you my friend and we'll go where the rivers end in the silver sea
and i'll carry you if you carry me

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Re: Moderator's Note (was Re: TBUDL@THEBAT.DUTAINT.COM is a private mailing list)

[John Sullivan]

On Wednesday 12 January 2000 Marck D. Pearlstone wrote:
> It  is  now  clear  that TB sends the "Reply-To" name in the SMTP FROM
> address  when  talking  to  SMTP relay servers.

ftp://src.doc.ic.ac.uk/rfc/rfc821.txt
ftp://src.doc.ic.ac.uk/rfc/rfc822.txt

>  I can see the sense in
> this.  Any rejection notices are routed to the SMTP FROM: address and,
> if  you  have specified a Reply-To:, then perhaps you really do wanted
> bounce  messages  to go there instead of to the address in the message
> x-header  From:  field.  But,  it  is the SMTP FROM (as opposed to the
> "From:"  field)  which  is  used by the list server to verify that the
> sender is a member.

I've responded privately to this. I'm not going to quote the above
RFCs here (unless anyone's mad enough to want to read the long and
technical ramblings I sent to Marck ;-), suffice it to say that
between them they give a pretty strong hint that this is Not The Right
Thing To Do.

> 2)  I  will  repeat  this  as  a bug report to both RITLabs (who could
> possibly  make it an option as to which of the From/Reply-To addresses
> to  use  in  the  SMTP  FROM  protocol  line) and to the makers of the
> ListServer regarding a greater latitude on which addresses are used to
> validate list membership.

The specific problem with the listserv is that this validation is a
security feature to protect legitimate members of the list. Envelope
addresses are to a small extent trusted - more so than message headers
which as far as the transport is concerned really could be anything. I
can see why it would check only the envelope and not the header
addresses (and half expect them to tell you so themselves). If The
Bat! was behaving itself, this wouldn't be an issue.

> ...unless  someone has something more definitive to contribute on this
> topic before I go making bold statements to authors... :-)

No, this is a bug in The Bat! and should be fixed. I did report it six
months ago. IMO it should not be an option - the RFCs are about as
clear as they ever get that it is not the Reply-To: address which is
used as the envelope sender address.

John
-- 
you gave me something that i could touch in a world where i'd had too much
something i could feel with my broken hands full of lost ideals but soon i'm
returning to you my friend and we'll go where the rivers end in the silver sea
and i'll carry you if you carry me

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Re[2]: BUG: view original text..

[Alexander A. Gomanyuk]

Hello Marck,

Thank U for answer.
The matter was in "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\RIT\The  Bat!\Editor\Original Height"
0 value...

> Hi Alexander,

> On  12 January 2000  at  17:33:40 GMT +0500 (which was 12:33 where I
> live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points:

>>> See the "View / Original Text" menu option ;-).

AAG>> And  when  menu  is on, then i can see on top of reply window the
AAG>> border  of original text window, just a border, that i can't move
AAG>> down, to see whole original text window...

AAG>> Any other interesting ideas ?

> None.  I've  tried  to make the Original Text window that small and it
> won't  let  me.  The  scroll buttons (up and down) insist on remaining
> visible  so  I  can  only  shrink the window down to one line high, no
> smaller. I can't imagine what's going on on your system. Anyone else?

> Cheers,
> Marck


Regards,
3AHO3A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]|2:5012/18.2>

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Re[4]: BUG: view original text..

[Alexander A. Gomanyuk]

Hello Alex,

 Thahks !
 
 It works, it works !
 Well, now i can turn off thiz useless feature :-)

 Master, may be U know why PGPkeys doesn't run, inspite of correct
 path etc ? :-)

> Hello Alexander,

> Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 2:33:40 PM, you wrote:

>>> See the "View / Original Text" menu option ;-).

AAG>> And when menu is on, then i can see on top of reply window the border
AAG>> of original text window, just a border, that i can't move down, to see
AAG>> whole original text window...

AAG>> Any other interesting ideas ?
> Yes, sir ;-))

> Look at "HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\RIT\The  Bat!\Editor\Original Height"
> This value seems to be 0 in your case.
> Put 50 there and you will be able to resize this window.

> P.S.: Do not forget to close The Bat! BEFORE changing this value ;-)
> P.P.S.: About Subject:
> This is not a bug, just a feature; -))



Regards,
3AHO3A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]|2:5012/18.2>

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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello tracer,

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 7:19:51 PM, you wrote:

Steve>> ACDeeCee.
> Agreed

 Have either of you tried IrfanView?  It is fast and simple, and the
 latest edition even does some limited editing.  I personally like
 this one the best, plus it is free. :)

 http://stud1.tuwien.ac.at/~e9227474/


-- 
Thanks for writing
 Januk
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[tracer]

Hello Steve Lamb,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:34:05 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 12:34:05 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Steve Lamb wrote:


>> You want me to spell check or read html-mails with other applications?

Steve> Yes.  No matter how good the RITLABS programmers are they will not be able
Steve> to build a spell checker as good as a team of programmers who have dedicated
Steve> themselves to building nothing but a spell checker.
100% correct

Steve> 


Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re[2]: img src......

[tracer]

Hello Alexander V. Kiselev,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:07:27 +0300 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 2:07:27 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:

Alexander> Hi there!

Alexander> On 12 Jan 00, at 12:16, Sashka wrote
Alexander> about "img src..":

>> just wondering, how long time will take for us, to make RitLabs add
>> support for "img src" from external website in html messages. 

Alexander> I really *hope*, that they will *never* implement this!

>> With Serial number in headers it took somewhere one week for them, to remove
>> it. Let ask all of us to add this feature also. I'm sure, if everyone from us
>> will ask them to do this, they will. and won't tell that they not going to
>> write own web browser ;-) 

Alexander> I HOPE, that contrary to what you suggest we'll all say "NO" distinctly and 
Alexander> clearly! I hope further that everyone here (or at least the majority) will 
express 
Alexander> their *dislike* for your idea.
Agreed Alex (with you (g))


Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[tracer]

Hello Steve Lamb,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:36:06 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 12:36:06 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Steve Lamb wrote:

(snip)
Steve> When did I say open?  Personally I use the CNTL, SHIFT and CNTL-SHIFT to
Steve> mark email that I want to *delete* leaving the mail I want to read alone.
which is the most efficient way to handle large amount of incoming
mail.
Anything which removes a large amount of data from further treatment
should be removed first...  otherwise you are reading unwanted stuff
all day...
I do the same, anything having passed my filters to the inbox gets
zapped if I think its rubbish.
Luckily I get very few things I donot really want but even there I
just flag the stuf I may have to read later or search for contents
just 'read' to get them out of the way...



Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: mailto: in Signatures

[Nick Andriash]

On Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 2:42:55 PM, Keith Russell wrote:

>Is there really any good reason for including the "mailto," since,  as  far
>as I can tell, most email clients will recognize an email  address  without
>the prefix? (In other words, won't  "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" work as  well as
>"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]" and be  less confusing to non-techies?)

Not necessarily Keith. There are some very popular Programs that do not
recognize [EMAIL PROTECTED] as a 'clickable' E-Mail address. Angel pointed
out AOL as one of them, and I know that Eudora and MS Outlook Programs do
not, while Agent and OE do, so I don't know why some do, and some don't.

You've brought up a good point though, and as Angel has suggested, I've
since taken my MailTo:'s out of the templates I use for TBUDL at least. :o)



Nick

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Re: Grid Index Out of Range

[tracer]

Hello Nancy,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:24:49 -0500 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 2:24:49 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Nancy wrote:

Nancy> Ever since upgrading to version 1.38 I periodically get the error
Nancy> message "Grid Index Out of Range" when viewing and deleting messages.
Nancy> After that happens I can no longer view any messages until I close
Nancy> out the program and restart it. I can't figure any particular
Nancy> circumstances under which it occurs.  It seems to be random

Nancy> Is anyone else experiencing this problem?  Is there a way to stop it?
However painfail it may sound, to me it sounds like a programming bug
so you better describe if it happens to all folders or just some and
whats different about where it happens.



Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[tracer]

Hello Alexander V. Kiselev,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:51:16 +0300 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 1:51:16 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:

Alexander> Hi there!

Alexander> On 12 Jan 00, at 9:03, Steve Lamb wrote
Alexander> about "Re: suggestion- / wish-list":

>> > Steve, any idea what editors you have seen under windows which might
>> > do the job as external editors for the Bat??
>> 
>> Well, an editor which just edits plain text would work.  As I've said, my
>> preference is for vim which is really a unix[1] editor.  My other preference is
>> joe, another unix editor.  I've not looked at GUI based editors ever since my
>> OS/2 days when I used to use Mr. Ed for my external editor for PMMail/2.

Alexander> Hey, Steve, seems we were working just in the same manner with you in *our* 
Alexander> OS/2 days;-) Under Windoze, I was always missing (at least), four things:
Alexander> 1) WatchCat (system spying and maintenance);
have you ever seen INFSPY??
or doesnt that look at the things you want to see??
Alexander> 2) Mr.Ed (editor)
Alexander> 3) PMView (image viewer and more)
ACDSEE??
Or has that wanted things missing...

Alexander> 4) WarpCenter (GUI enhancement: multiple desktops and such)

Alexander> For the 1) above I still have nothing under Windoze; for the second WinEdt 
Alexander> seems to be even a *better* replacement (although Mr.Ed was faster and 
Alexander> smaller, but that's a usual thing when you compare the Windows application 
to 
Alexander> its OS/2 counterpart;-(); for the third, nothing would qualify, but AFAIK 
Alexander> PMView will be soon available for Windoze, which is a really good thing 
(tm): 
Alexander> www.pmview.com for all interested; for the fourth there is PerfectScreens 
Alexander> (www.softwareutilities.com) which is not the same, but can stand for a 
Alexander> functional replacement given the overall quality of Windows GUI compared to 
Alexander> OS/2 PM;-)

>> Hell, calling a different editor with any name shouldn't be that hard.
>> The only problem, as people have rightfully pointed out, is that if the editor
>> doesn't exit after the task at hand is completed there is a problem
>> signaling to the email client to read in the temp file and continue with its
>> task.

Alexander> It's not a problem if one could use DDE. A simple script (not a program 
even) 
Alexander> would help.


Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re[2]: ERROR ... please help ...

[tracer]

Hello Clemens 'Gullevek' Schwaighofer,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:33:55 +0100 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 2:33:55 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Clemens 'Gullevek' Schwaighofer wrote:

Clemens> Hello tracer,

Clemens> Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 5:32:50 AM, tracer wrote:

Clemens>>>   Suddenly the bat gave me an error, that there would be a problem
Clemens>>>   with my inbox and there is one file left there called bad4141.TMP
Clemens>>>   ... how can I repeair it ... please it's my inbox!!! help me!!
>> if the mentioned repair utility doesnt work...
>> 1. try copy to a different name first
>> 2. try opening with quickview plus or anything suitable, hex editor??
>> to see if there is any data in it
>> if there is no data in that file, there is nothing to recover.
>> If there is, several tools exist to get your data out  but likely not
>> to another inbox.
>> More importantly, WHY did this happen.
>> Did you have a system crash? Enough ram???

Clemens> First, I today, reapaired it myself. I just renamed that file to the
Clemens> message file and voila I have my inbox back.
You are lucky and I would recommend creating some folders and split
that mail up..
I know I can loose a mailbox but I will likely never lose all unless I
delete them..
You may have run out of memory, or some other resource related problem
so the bat may have stopped and grabbed whatever it had and saved it
off as temp file.
It also means I guess you may have lost some mail if you are
unlucky
An inbox of 54 mb is a bit dangerous...

Clemens> previous errors ? none, I just started the bat and there the error
Clemens> came. It's very strange. btw, the .tmp file had the size of 54 MB ...




Clemens> Best regards, Clemens
Clemens> written with TheBat! 1.38e
Clemens> on Windows 98, 4 10
Clemens> Build   A 
Clemens> on Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 8:32:52 PM




Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[tracer]

Hello Steve Lamb,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:05:40 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 6:05:40 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Steve Lamb wrote:

Steve> Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 10:51:16 AM, Alexander wrote:
>> 1) WatchCat (system spying and maintenance);

Steve> top, kill, and... oh wait, Windows, right, right.  Reset key.  I've got my
Steve> Linux box doing all my important work.  Windows is just games.  I've given up
Steve> on trying to make it stable and just wack the reset key.

GAMES???
What games do you play on your PC...
I thought you only had PC's for WORK or serious things...(g)

(snip)

Steve> ACDeeCee.
Agreed

>> 4) WarpCenter (GUI enhancement: multiple desktops and such)

Steve> Powerbar.
I never tried it, guess I should have a look at it...

>> It's not a problem if one could use DDE. A simple script (not a program even)
>> would help.

Steve> Can one do DDE to a "normal" editor?


Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[tracer]

Hello Alexander V. Kiselev,
On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 02:48:40 +0300 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 6:48:40 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:

Alexander> Might be, but the functionality is lacking. Although I have Adobe PhotoShop 
Alexander> (and dislike it;-)), every now and then I need to do "slight" image 
editing, for 
Alexander> which I don't need a monster like PhotoShop. PMView handles this. Plus is 
Alexander> can be used for scanning. Plus filtering images. Plus configurable 
shortcuts 
Alexander> (!!!).
Paintshop 6 will do that as well...

Alexander> And on top of *all* that it's just plain faster and displays images 
*better* (better 
Alexander> resampling support, to be more precise) then ACDC. 

Alexander> And all this is NOT a monster, it's a reasonable download (the size of 
ACDC, 
Alexander> practically).


Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[tracer]

Hello Angel,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:12:12 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 7:12:12 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Angel wrote:

Angel> On Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 16:04:18 ,Claudius scribbled:

CR>> Steve Lamb, is it time to leave this mailing list??? Do you have any respect
CR>> for other people in you? Respect for my culture?
Angel> Forgive me Claudius, but your response does not help the situation. You 
should've done with
Angel> this what I did..*take it into private*.
Angel> I don't like arguing of any kind. But when done in a public fora, let alone one 
which is
Angel> supposed to be a help/informative one, I absolutely detest it. It does not 
belong here k?

Angel> My suggestion is to take this offlist. Please? It has overridden the genre of 
this
Angel> particular thread AFAICT and is unneccesary.

Not only that, arguing in public rarely leads to a solution anyway...

Angel> Thanks buches, and havea great day! :D

Angel> Regards,
Angel> ~~~Angel


Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[tracer]

Hello Steve Lamb,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:29:28 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 7:29:28 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Steve Lamb wrote:
Steve> Quite frankly, I don't care that someone's opinion is that the sky
Steve> is orange with leaf brown polka dots everywhere.  The fact is it is blue and
Steve> has been proven as such.
I wouldnt be too sure about that one
I agree its likely not orange with leaf brown polka dots though...



Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: Steve Lamb 101

[Angel]

Hi all, and Nick,

I am *not* a member of the *I hate Steve* fan club (Hate is such a strong word 
anyways).
I just think there is a lot of frustration in the air.
What I *am* is someone with over 20 yrs experience in Customer Service, Problem 
Resolution
and PR who doesn't like to see people arguing and squabbling over something in a public
fora which is of an informative, progressive and support genre. Much more could be
accomplished if the threads stay on topic, and the list-members take adamant, forceful,
personal oppositions to opinions stated in the fora, into private.
I've heard/seen worse. But it's frustrating to see stuff like this in a place
which it has no place. It doesn't concern me *personally*, however it *does* concern
me as a member of a public support/informative fora. It's going to 
happen...disagreements
and conflict, but it's up to US: Me, Steve, and *everyone* else, as to where we draw 
the
line.

Steve publicly apologized for being out of line and I respect that, and I respect him 
much
more for doing so. I have learned quite a bit from this fora, and from Steve (as I told
him in private). I think this fora has benefitted from him input, and I hope that
he will keep things on an "appropriate" public fora manner so that we could continue to
learn more from him.

Contrary to what others may believe, it's hard to ignore *any* email in this fora 
because
sometimes a very good point or fact is contained within..but sometimes within a
buncha flaming etc. Sometimes it's just too hard to miss...and to ignore. We're juct
names on here, but we *are* human after all

With that said, I hope that TBUDL can now get back to what it's supposed to do best for
me: inform, teach and heck... make me smile sometimes :D

And I apologize if this post was/is out of line for the fora but I had to respond to
Nick's  very human post. :)

Regards,
~~~Angel

-- 

   "No hay extraños en este mundo, simplemente amigos 
 por conocer"  
@@ 
*   -={+}=-Senza fiduccia niente-={+}=-  *
**
* Scribbled using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1 on: 1/12/2000 17:46:45*
*   under Windows 98 PLUS! 4 .10 Build   A   *
*Running a 200MhZ Pentium with a 8.0Gb & 1.2Gb hard disk(s) 128Mb RAM*
@@

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Re[2]: img src......

[Sashka]

Hello,
S>> just wondering, how long time will take for us, to make RitLabs add
S>> support for "img src" from external website in html messages. With
S>> Serial number in headers it took somewhere one week for them, to
S>> remove it. Let ask all of us to add this feature also. I'm sure, if
S>> everyone from us will ask them to do this, they will. and won't tell
S>> that they not going to write own web browser ;-)
TF> I, for one, don't want my email client to connect to some obscure web
TF> site out there, just because there is an img src in some HTML message.
how about button somewhere in message viewer, pressing on which will
download pictures for current html e-mail?



-- 
 Sashka
 e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Unix is user friendly. It's just very selective about who
it's friends are.



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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 5:35:25 PM, Alexander wrote:
> I believe it's normal, if you don't think so, it's your problem.
> Furthermore, if your favourite vim doesn't support DDE, it's another *your*
> problem (and problem of other vim users under Windoze)...

Let's compare.  Which has been around longer?  Calling an editor with a
command-line of what file you want to edit or calling an editor through DDE.

Case closed.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: FETCH - Could Not Create Output File - Update

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hi Keith,

On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:54:34 -0700GMT (12/01/2000, 23:54 +0800GMT),
Keith Russell wrote:

KR> That's very interesting. I've been thinking about going to 128, but
KR> with the high memory prices, have been holding off. Sounds like
KR> something I might want to reconsider.

It's worth it in any case. Will spped up your system. ;-)

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.  

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
on a Pentium II/350 MHz.



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Re: img src......

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hi Sashka,

On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 12:16:23 -0500GMT (13/01/2000, 01:16 +0800GMT),
Sashka wrote:

S> just wondering, how long time will take for us, to make RitLabs add
S> support for "img src" from external website in html messages. With
S> Serial number in headers it took somewhere one week for them, to
S> remove it. Let ask all of us to add this feature also. I'm sure, if
S> everyone from us will ask them to do this, they will. and won't tell
S> that they not going to write own web browser ;-)

I, for one, don't want my email client to connect to some obscure web
site out there, just because there is an img src in some HTML message.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.  

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
on a Pentium II/350 MHz.



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Re: Editor (was: Re: suggestion- / wish-list)

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hi Allie,

On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:01:59 -0500GMT (12/01/2000, 20:01 +0800GMT),
Allie Martin wrote:

>> Sounds good to me. What happens in PMMail when you are  finsihed
>> editing and want to send/save/discard the message?

AM> You close the external editor and the PMMail message editor window with
AM> only the header section appears. You may then send, put it in drafts, make
AM> changes to the headers etc.

No good, I don't want to have to close the external editor. Maybe
"save to" a certain temp file would do, and when you hit "put letter
in outbox" TB would convert whatever is currently in that temp file.

Problem here: what if composing several msgs at the same time. Have to
give it some more thought, I guess.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.  

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
on a Pentium II/350 MHz.



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Steve Lamb 101

[Nick Danger]

 As always happens with every new inrush of new TB! users the "I hate
Steve Lamb" fan club gets cranked up.  To this end, let me try and
hurry the learning process along by lending my personal experience.

When I first came on TBUDL my initial reaction to Steve was "what an
obnoxious, conceited, boisterous (if that's possible via email),
pompous ass" and I'll just toss his little ol' name into a kill filter
and be done with it.  Luckily, I held off.

Lamb in an acquired taste (pun intended), and once you get past the
brash outer shell there really is a lot one can learn from Steve. I
have gained great insight on a lot of topics from his "discussions" in
this forum, and while I don't agree with everything he says (what sane
person possibly could?) there is even tidbits of wisdom in the
wackiest of Steve's stances.

Sure, he can make you feel like veins are about to explode in your
forehead at times, but just chalk it up to his passion in defending
what he thinks is a good email program that he doesn't want to see
headed in the wrong (ie: opposite his ideals) way.  You actually have
to admire his passion.

Steve's a self proclaimed curmudgeon, but mixed into that is also a
witty and wry sense of humor.  So please, before you start typing up
that flame response to something Steve said, sit back, count to ten,
and do I do, say to yourself "There goes ol' Steve again!" as it truly
would be a loss to this forum if he took his opinions (staunchly
stated as they are) elsewhere.

-- 
- Nick

Using The Bat! 1.38e
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build
1998  



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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 12 Jan 00, at 16:12, Steve Lamb wrote
about "Re: suggestion- / wish-list":

> > WinEdt is "normal", then;-)
> 
> Your point?  The statement was that if you program for DDE that is *all*
> one needs to do.  This, to me, seems like a naive statement as I'm sure all
> editors do not support DDE.  I doubt that vim supports it.  So can DDE support
> "normal" editors?

DDE is a protocol *many* applications support and which allows *me* to use 
WinEdt as an "outer" editor for Pegasus and each and every other application 
that supports it. I believe it's normal, if you don't think so, it's your problem. 
Furthermore, if your favourite vim doesn't support DDE, it's another *your* 
problem (and problem of other vim users under Windoze)...

I haven't got these problems, morethenthat, WinEdt allows me to call it any 
way I like, and via the commandline parameters as well. 

DDE is the only *effective* protocol IMO existing under windoze that allows 
dirrect applications transactions. It really *works*...

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  Drive A: not responding...Formatting C: instead

--- 
PGP public keys on keyservers:
0xA2194BF9 (RSA);   0x214135A2 (DH/DSS)
fingerprints:
F222 4AEF EC9F 5FA6  7515 910A 2429 9CB1 (RSA)
A677 81C9 48CF 16D1 B589  9D33 E7D5 675F 2141 35A2 (DH/DSS) 
--- 

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Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 5:15:11 PM, Allie wrote:
>> Glad to see you're finally quoting correctly.  Amazingly, you're learning.

> Forte' Agent, Becky, Poco Mail, PMMail, MR2/ICE, Post Road Mailer,
> Transoft Mail, and other less worthwhile e-mail clients that I've tried
> all support customizable quote prefixes. What do you expect the general
> community to feel about using > as the only acceptable means.

> Don't bother with that Unix based tradition now. The personal
> computing world is not about Unix tradition only these days.

Allie, as I said in private I'm *NOT* in the mood.  I know this thread is
declared DH but this needs to be answered.  Claudius was quoting in the
traditional style of:

"And yea, I say unto you the only quote character shall be >.  If it is
not, beware the evils of all creation crumbling to dust," yelled the
curmudgeon from on high.

Instead of:

On some lame date and some lame time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>And yea, I say unto you the only quote character shall be >.  If it is not,
>beware the evils of all creation crumbling to dust.


What I expect the general community to feel about using > as the only
acceptable means is that it is the default and the most widely used.  How that
translates into Claudius' writing a novel out of our conversation is beyond
me.

Now do you see what I was refuting?  Was there anything in my arguments
that was false?  Granted, a lot can configure it but what do they default to
and why?

Again, I'm not in the mood for your pissy nitpicking.  I know you're more
intelligent than this and can clearly see the difference so, please, just drop
it now, ok?

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: DEAD HORSE (was Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!)

[Allie Martin]

On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:04:22 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

[..snip..]

> Upon rereading my last message I'd like to apologize to the list in
> general.  At least the last message was a bit too far.  While I still agree
> with and stand by everything I said my judgement was clouded in the posting of
> it because of my frustration of having to go through the whole argument again
> for the uncountable time in the past 10 years.

> Claudius pushed my buttons just right in his last message and I reacted.
> I'm sorry for that.

*Allie breaths a public sigh of relief*

Ahh. Better late than never, eh, fella list members?

I had faith in yah Steve. Apology accepted!!!

Now go forth and sin no more. :)

-- 
-=Allie=-  | Using The Bat! v1.39 Beta/1
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   | Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 6)
   
   [ Plan to be more spontaneous. ]


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Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Allie Martin]

On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:29:28 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

[..snip..][..snip..][..snip..][..snip..]

> Glad to see you're finally quoting correctly.  Amazingly, you're learning.

Forte' Agent, Becky, Poco Mail, PMMail, MR2/ICE, Post Road Mailer,
Transoft Mail, and other less worthwhile e-mail clients that I've tried
all support customizable quote prefixes. What do you expect the general
community to feel about using > as the only acceptable means.

Don't bother with that Unix based tradition now. The personal
computing world is not about Unix tradition only these days.

-- 
-=Allie=-  | Using The Bat! v1.39 Beta/1
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   | Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 6)
   
   [ 1st rule of intelligent tinkering - save all the parts ]


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Re: DEAD HORSE (was Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!)

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 4:38:36 PM, Marck wrote:
> On  13 January 2000  at  16:29:28 GMT -0800 (which was 00:29 where I
> live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points:

> It's  DEAD  HORSE  time  guys! Angel is quite right - take it off list
> please.

Upon rereading my last message I'd like to apologize to the list in
general.  At least the last message was a bit too far.  While I still agree
with and stand by everything I said my judgement was clouded in the posting of
it because of my frustration of having to go through the whole argument again
for the uncountable time in the past 10 years.

Claudius pushed my buttons just right in his last message and I reacted.
I'm sorry for that.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: Dumb newbie question?

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Urban,


Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 4:29:45 PM, you wrote:

> Hello listmembers,

> I've only used the Bat for four days, and I've just discovered the
> Mail Dispatcher. A great little utility, but is there a way to
> automate it, using filters or something like that?

 When you say automate, what exactly do you mean?

 If you mean, "How do I have it open automatically?" Then go to
 Account -> Properties -> Mail Management and select the appropriate
 options in the Mail Dispatcher Box. (Check it out, and you'll see
 it is pretty simple once you find it.  Finding where the option
 exists is 3/4 of the battle.) :)

 Hope this helped.

-- 
Thanks for writing
 Januk
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re[2]: [spam score 3.48/10.0 -pobox] Re[2]: FETCH - Could Not Create Output File - Update

[tracer]

Hello Keith Russell,

>> Maybe even a temp directory being corrupted/filled up.
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\fix_pnp.exe
C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\deltree /y c:\windows\temp\*.* >nul
C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\deltree /y c:\temp\*.* >nul
C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\deltree /y d:\temp\*.* >nul
C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\deltree /y e:\temp\*.* >nul
C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\deltree /y f:\temp\*.* >nul
C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\deltree /y g:\temp\*.* >nul
C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\deltree /y h:\temp\*.* >nul
C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\deltree /y i:\temp\*.* >nul

I use at present this, courtesy Steve I think.
I normally used a utility for cleaning as it allowed me to fine tune
what was removed and could do in one pass also multiple extensions
anywhere on my drives but then exculding certain directories...
Its a great way to keep your system clean if you know that stuff
dumped in certain places WILL get removed without to worry about
it
I even posted a complaint in the past about these tmp files. No idea
what creates them, and the explanation posted didnt make sense to me.
As however at boot I tended to go to DOS where I ran a thing called
DOSKICK (one of my own creations) from where many things were run
before I even went into windows, one of which was a cleaning of any
temp dirs AND removal of BAK and TMP files of my hard disks, it never
really bothered me
Since my last reinstall (a clean one) I just never got around to
sticking it back in the boot...
Stick the above in the autoexec.bat but realise that if you expand an
archive to the temp dirs on a reboot they are empty..
With my own way as used before it would do that only once per
day..first boot only and I could skip it if I wanted..
Keith> It appears that you might have hit the nail squarely on the head here,
Keith> tracer. c:\temp had Bat-related files, and c:\windows\temp had nearly
Keith> 14,000 (yes! You read right!) batxxx.tmp files. I cleared both
Keith> directories and, so far, everything seems to be working. Downloads are
Keith> also very fast. The acid test will come later when I have a large
Keith> volume of messages waiting for download. I do wish I knew what caused the
Keith> problem in the first place.
ask them and also run a scandisk to make sure there is not some hidden
disk problem you were hitting as a combination with those tmp files.

Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 

mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone: 271194



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DEAD HORSE (was Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!)

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

Hi Steve and Claudius,

On  13 January 2000  at  16:29:28 GMT -0800 (which was 00:29 where I
live) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote and made these points:

It's  DEAD  HORSE  time  guys! Angel is quite right - take it off list
please.

Cheers,
Marck
-- 
Marck D. Pearlstone, Consultant Software Engineer
Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA discussion lists
www: http://www.silverstones.com
PGP key: 
-
Using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1
under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  

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Dumb newbie question?

[Urban Ek]

Hello listmembers,

I've only used the Bat for four days, and I've just discovered the
Mail Dispatcher. A great little utility, but is there a way to
automate it, using filters or something like that?

Thanks in advance,
 Urban
-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Using The Bat! 1.38e
under Windows 95
4.0 Build 1212
 B 



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Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 4:04:18 PM, Claudius wrote:
> with the email you dare to post here you show your shortcomings.

Which are far less than yours.

> You are just getting really angry and aggressive

No, I am frustrated at yet another newbie trying to change the net world
and conventions to his mindset because he doesn't want to learn about its
established rules of conduct.

> the lack of arguments or your bad mood is not a reason to become personal
> insulting in a public mailing list.

They aren't insults, they are statements of fact.  You don't have any
arguments and you won't listen to reason.  Maybe a little shock therapy is
what you needed.

> With all your net-"culture" you are breaking netiquette and your "standards"
> let you forget the primary rules of social communication.

You are not one to talk about netiquette since you are singularly
unfamiliar with the most basic tenets of it.

> And this because I quoted in 1 out of 99 cases a different way than ">"
> and your dozen rules.

No, you didn't.  Nor did you somehow magically refute that the established
net culture uses "> " as the basic quote character.

> I was trying to show you that there are different opinions about what people
> consider to be the core of an email client, that some people see some common
> points in the usage of news and emails, that sometimes one can learn from
> people's opinions that usually do not work with the internet.

I am aware there are different opinions.  However, I am not discussing
"opinions."  I am discussing technical *FACT* and have supported that
position.  Quite frankly, I don't care that someone's opinion is that the sky
is orange with leaf brown polka dots everywhere.  The fact is it is blue and
has been proven as such.

I don't care that your opinion is that you should be able to quote
willy-nilly, the fact is the standard convention is with the > character.  I
don't care what your opinion is of what is "core" to an email client, the fact
is that without certain protocols and operations in place the rest is
meaningless.  I don't care that your opinion is that news and email are
similar, the fact is they are technically different as well as culturally
different.  Your opinions in these matters do nothing to change those facts.

> YOU sound like your position is the only possible, technically,
> ideologically correct position. And not just your opinion.

Because, like it or not, it is.  Your *opinion* that I might be wrong
doesn't change the fact that I have supported my position with the technical,
historical and ideological standards of the internet.  I am stating that it is
what it is because that is EXACTLY what it is.  If you don't like that, fine.
I'm not about to call red blue just to appease you.

> YOU are not the online community.

No, but I know it better than most.

> YOU are the only one that has problems with that one single mail.

No, I'm the only one who doesn't let crap like that pass.

SL>> Because the standard convention in the printed medium when quoting
SL>> someone is radically different than here.

> There is NO convention in printed media.

"I beg to differ," said Steve authoritatively.  "For some reason," he
continued, "people will always quote individuals by placing their words inside
quotes and normally attribute those quotes to individuals outside the quotes.
If you think this isn't the convention, pick up a couple dozen papers and read
them quoting individuals and you will see that it is quite common.  That makes
it a convention of that particular media just as > quoting is a convention of
this media.  You won't see > used in print any more than you will see print
quoting used here."

"Furthermore, issuing statements above without providing some supporting
evidence is quite annoying," Steve later lectured.  "You're the one trying to
break the conventions and say there aren't any where there are.  Support your
statements."

SL>> The convention of the culture that you have entered. I cannot believe I
SL>> still have to argue over this with every newbie that comes into a new
SL>> culture!

> I am the newbie that 'entered the culture'? Watch your mouth, Steve
> Lamb.

Yes, you are.  Prove that you aren't.  Nearly anyone who has been in the
net culture for more than a few months (outside of AOL) does things the proper
way for that culture.

> My utter lack of respect for the culture? Straighten up my act? Steve
> Lamb, is it time to leave this mailing list??? Do you have any respect
> for other people in you? Respect for my culture?

Yes, I do.  I have respect for people who have some intelligence, some
integrity, who know their stuff and prove it by their actions.  You, by your
actions, have proven that you don't know your stuff.  By the very fact that
you're insisting on this idiotic debate that you're clear to lose it draws
into question your integrity and intelligence.

I may be brash, I may be rude, but l

Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Angel]

On Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 16:04:18 ,Claudius scribbled:

CR> Steve Lamb, is it time to leave this mailing list??? Do you have any respect
CR> for other people in you? Respect for my culture?
Forgive me Claudius, but your response does not help the situation. You should've done 
with
this what I did..*take it into private*.
I don't like arguing of any kind. But when done in a public fora, let alone one which 
is
supposed to be a help/informative one, I absolutely detest it. It does not belong here 
k?

My suggestion is to take this offlist. Please? It has overridden the genre of this
particular thread AFAICT and is unneccesary.

Thanks buches, and havea great day! :D

Regards,
~~~Angel

-- 

   "No hay extraños en este mundo, simplemente amigos 
 por conocer"  
@@ 
*   -={+}=-Senza fiduccia niente-={+}=-  *
**
* Scribbled using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1 on: 1/12/2000 16:04:18*
*   under Windows 98 PLUS! 4 .10 Build   A   *
*Running a 200MhZ Pentium with a 8.0Gb & 1.2Gb hard disk(s) 128Mb RAM*
@@

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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 4:03:28 PM, Alexander wrote:
> WinEdt is "normal", then;-)

Your point?  The statement was that if you program for DDE that is *all*
one needs to do.  This, to me, seems like a naive statement as I'm sure all
editors do not support DDE.  I doubt that vim supports it.  So can DDE support
"normal" editors?

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 3:48:40 PM, Alexander wrote:
>> Right, looked at it.  I dunno, but I like ACDeeSee's "browser" mode.  I

> There's almost the same in PMView: File-->Open and you're there;-) 

"Almost" is being kind, don't you think?  In ACDeeSee I turn off all but
the "thumbnail" and file list.  Now I enlarge the thumbnail section as large
as it goes to leave 1 row of the file list left.  Even without maximizing
(which I don't do) this is large enough to display the picture at full
resolution or at a large enough resolution where degradation from reduction is
minimal.

I like a picture, I press down arrow.  I dislike it, I press shift down
arrow.  If it is part of a series I don't like I move my eyes over, move to
the end of the series while holding shift and move them back.  Every once and
a while I hit delete to prevent the marked files from getting too large.  I
also do that when I see a picture I want so I can avoid a miskey losing
previous marks of pictures I want to delete.

PMView's file list is *nothing* like that at all.  It is an extremely fast
and effective way to go through a simply huge number of pictures.

> Might be, but the functionality is lacking.

It is a picture viewer.  It views pictures.  It does it extremely well.  I
think this is an argument for a specialized application doing one thing and
doing it well.

> PMView handles this. Plus is can be used for scanning. Plus filtering
> images. Plus configurable shortcuts (!!!).

Filtering as in apply graphical filters to an image (editing) or filtering
as in being able to decide in a quick manner whether to keep or discard an
image and where to move it to?  If the latter, ACDeeSee does it much, MUCH
better and doesn't need configurable shortcuts to do it.  Standard CUA keys
and sensible defaults are all that is needed.  When filtering my pictures I
literally use, up, down, left right, shift down, shift up, del, alt-a, alt-m.
That is it.

> And on top of *all* that it's just plain faster and displays images *better*
> (better resampling support, to be more precise) then ACDC.

ACDeeSee is fast as it is.  The only reason it is slow on my machine is
because I am often accessing the pictures over NFS and so the loading of the
image is limited to ~500Kps.  As for display, I've not been on a display that
has required dithering since 1990.

> And all this is NOT a monster, it's a reasonable download (the size of ACDC,
> practically).

Sounds like a monster to me.  Because it has branched out into things
other than image viewing it lacks as an image viewer compared to the dedicated
image viewer.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello Steve Lamb,

with the email you dare to post here you show your shortcomings. You
are just getting really angry and aggressive; the lack of arguments or
your bad mood is not a reason to become personal insulting in a public
mailing list. With all your net-"culture" you are
breaking netiquette and your "standards" let you forget the primary
rules of social communication. Unfortunately, -- or should I say
fortunately? -- this discussion is at its end. And this because I
quoted in 1 out of 99 cases a different way than ">" and your dozen
rules.
I was trying to show you that there are different opinions about what
people consider to be the core of an email client, that some people
see some common points in the usage of news and emails, that sometimes
one can learn from people's opinions that usually do not work with the
internet. If you read all my mails, you should know that I never said
"I need html-writing here and now, I need a newsreader here and now, I
need a spell checker here and now...". YOU sound like your position is
the only possible, technically, ideologically correct position. And
not just your opinion.

YOU are not the online community.
YOU are the only one that has problems with that one single mail.

SL>>> Because the standard convention in the printed medium when quoting someone is 
radically different
SL>>> than here.

There is NO convention in printed media.

SL> The convention of the culture that you have entered.  I cannot believe I
SL> still have to argue over this with every newbie that comes into a new culture!

I am the newbie that 'entered the culture'? Watch your mouth, Steve
Lamb.

SL> You don't know how sad that makes me considering your utter lack of
SL> respect for the culture, its conventions and standards.
SL> Good.  Hopefully you'll straighten up your act.

My utter lack of respect for the culture? Straighten up my act? Steve
Lamb, is it time to leave this mailing list??? Do you have any respect
for other people in you? Respect for my culture?

--
 Claudius Regn mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Using The Bat! 1.38e under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  

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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 12 Jan 00, at 15:57, Steve Lamb wrote
about "Re: suggestion- / wish-list":


> Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 3:50:36 PM, Alexander wrote:
> > To which one? You definitely *can* if your editor is WinEdt. Actually, I *do*
> > use it with Pegasus for composing lengthy messages with TeX stuff.
> 
> Normal as in an editor which accepts a filename to edit.

WinEdt is "normal", then;-)

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  Friends don't let friends use Windows.

--- 
PGP public keys on keyservers:
0xA2194BF9 (RSA);   0x214135A2 (DH/DSS)
fingerprints:
F222 4AEF EC9F 5FA6  7515 910A 2429 9CB1 (RSA)
A677 81C9 48CF 16D1 B589  9D33 E7D5 675F 2141 35A2 (DH/DSS) 
--- 


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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 3:50:36 PM, Alexander wrote:
> To which one? You definitely *can* if your editor is WinEdt. Actually, I *do*
> use it with Pegasus for composing lengthy messages with TeX stuff.

Normal as in an editor which accepts a filename to edit.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 12 Jan 00, at 15:29, Steve Lamb wrote
about "Re: suggestion- / wish-list":

> >>> 3) PMView (image viewer and more)
> 
> > There's PMView 2000 for Windows9x/NT/2000 and OS/2 now. I have my copy
> > running here. :))
> 
> Right, looked at it.  I dunno, but I like ACDeeSee's "browser" mode.  I

There's almost the same in PMView: File-->Open and you're there;-) 

> can get a nice large viewing window and a file list and blast through 3-4000
> pictures quite quickly.  PMView, from what I remember, was quite tedious in
> that respect.  In fact all viewers except ACDeeSee have been tedious.  I think
> it is a good study in nice UI design.

Might be, but the functionality is lacking. Although I have Adobe PhotoShop 
(and dislike it;-)), every now and then I need to do "slight" image editing, for 
which I don't need a monster like PhotoShop. PMView handles this. Plus is 
can be used for scanning. Plus filtering images. Plus configurable shortcuts 
(!!!).

And on top of *all* that it's just plain faster and displays images *better* (better 
resampling support, to be more precise) then ACDC. 

And all this is NOT a monster, it's a reasonable download (the size of ACDC, 
practically).

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  It is better to have a horrible ending than to have horrors
  without end.

--- 
PGP public keys on keyservers:
0xA2194BF9 (RSA);   0x214135A2 (DH/DSS)
fingerprints:
F222 4AEF EC9F 5FA6  7515 910A 2429 9CB1 (RSA)
A677 81C9 48CF 16D1 B589  9D33 E7D5 675F 2141 35A2 (DH/DSS) 
--- 

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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 12 Jan 00, at 15:05, Steve Lamb wrote
about "Re: suggestion- / wish-list":

> > It's not a problem if one could use DDE. A simple script (not a program even)
> > would help.
> 
> Can one do DDE to a "normal" editor?

To which one? You definitely *can* if your editor is WinEdt. Actually, I *do* 
use it with Pegasus for composing lengthy messages with TeX stuff.

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  Book (n): a utensil used to pass time while waiting
 for the TV repairman.

--- 
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0xA2194BF9 (RSA);   0x214135A2 (DH/DSS)
fingerprints:
F222 4AEF EC9F 5FA6  7515 910A 2429 9CB1 (RSA)
A677 81C9 48CF 16D1 B589  9D33 E7D5 675F 2141 35A2 (DH/DSS) 
--- 

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Re: img src......

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Sashka,


Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 3:20:48 PM, you wrote:

> Hello Januk,

> since this everyone saying no, let's talk about another feature: when
> clicking on URL in message, or clicking on html attachment to view it
> normally in browser, TheBat can not open new windows of browser. it
> just overwrite current windows. this is not always good. How about
> adding option/feature Open link in new browser window? Just don't tell
> me, that it's not possible.

I'll back you up on that one.  There was a recent thread which
discussed this in more detail.  In the case of calling IE, someone(1)
gave a detailed account on how programs can call MSIE.  I can't do
justice to that post, but the key is that it *is* possible.

(1) I apologize for my lack of memory. Time to upgrade the old
noggin's RAM :)


> Even ICQ has this feature. Is THE BAT
> worse than ICQ? ;-)

Worse? How can you compare them? Besides, even though I'm a loyal ICQ
user, I've noticed that it is suffering massively from the BloatWare
syndrome that is flogged to death on this group. It has gotten so bad
that I am no longer willing to upgrade to their latest versions even
though there are new security fixes.


-- 
Thanks for writing
 Januk
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 3:16:28 PM, Allie wrote:
> My NTWS install here is stable without my trying. :)

OK, now play the latest games on NT.  :P

> I use NoteTab Pro since my editing needs increased beyond the realms
> of NotePad.   NoteTab Pro is certainly no piece of cake. Take a look
> at www.notetab.com.

Looks like a very basic editor.  Too basic from what I see, to be
considered useful for a "basic" email editor, much less advanced.

>>> 3) PMView (image viewer and more)

>> ACDeeCee.

> There's PMView 2000 for Windows9x/NT/2000 and OS/2 now. I have my copy
> running here. :))

Right, looked at it.  I dunno, but I like ACDeeSee's "browser" mode.  I
can get a nice large viewing window and a file list and blast through 3-4000
pictures quite quickly.  PMView, from what I remember, was quite tedious in
that respect.  In fact all viewers except ACDeeSee have been tedious.  I think
it is a good study in nice UI design.

> I was using Desks at Will but have since tried PowerBar and am really
> liking it. BTW, warpcenter did not give multiple desktops. I think we are
> speaking of Object Desktop aren't we?

If so Stardock did port a lot of OD over to Windows.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re[2]: img src......

[Sashka]

Hello Januk,

>>  Well  I  would  certainly  add  my  dislike  for  that "feature"(sic)
>>  hopefully  everyone  else who can appreciate the security and general
>>  annoyance aspects will also vote NO
JA>  I agree that The Bat! should not add this feature, but what I would
since this everyone saying no, let's talk about another feature: when
clicking on URL in message, or clicking on html attachment to view it
normally in browser, TheBat can not open new windows of browser. it
just overwrite current windows. this is not always good. How about
adding option/feature Open link in new browser window? Just don't tell
me, that it's not possible. Even ICQ has this feature. Is THE BAT
worse than ICQ? ;-)

-- 
 Sashka
 e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Allie Martin]

On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:05:40 -0800, Steve Lamb wrote:

> top, kill, and... oh wait, Windows, right, right.  Reset key.  I've got my
> Linux box doing all my important work.  Windows is just games.  I've given up
> on trying to make it stable and just wack the reset key.

My NTWS install here is stable without my trying. :)

>> 2) Mr.Ed (editor)

> vim.  I used to be a joe head but I admit these days I try to :q out of
> joe and then get frustrated before I remember to hit CNTL-C.  I've not found
> any GUI application (not even GVIM) that I really like for windows.  I'm just
> not too fond of the CUA keys and nothing really jumps out at me with the old
> WordStar keys.  vim at least gives me a consistent editor across all the
> platforms I use and has, thus far, had all the features I've wanted from it
> and none of the features I've not wanted.

I use NoteTab Pro since my editing needs increased beyond the realms
of NotePad.   NoteTab Pro is certainly no piece of cake. Take a look
at www.notetab.com.

>> 3) PMView (image viewer and more)

> ACDeeCee.

There's PMView 2000 for Windows9x/NT/2000 and OS/2 now. I have my copy
running here. :))

>> 4) WarpCenter (GUI enhancement: multiple desktops and such)

> Powerbar.

I was using Desks at Will but have since tried PowerBar and am really
liking it. BTW, warpcenter did not give multiple desktops. I think we are
speaking of Object Desktop aren't we?

-- 
-=Allie=-  | Using The Bat! v1.39 Beta/1
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   | Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 6)
   
   [ A friend: someone who likes you even after they know you. ]


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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 10:51:16 AM, Alexander wrote:
> 1) WatchCat (system spying and maintenance);

top, kill, and... oh wait, Windows, right, right.  Reset key.  I've got my
Linux box doing all my important work.  Windows is just games.  I've given up
on trying to make it stable and just wack the reset key.

> 2) Mr.Ed (editor)

vim.  I used to be a joe head but I admit these days I try to :q out of
joe and then get frustrated before I remember to hit CNTL-C.  I've not found
any GUI application (not even GVIM) that I really like for windows.  I'm just
not too fond of the CUA keys and nothing really jumps out at me with the old
WordStar keys.  vim at least gives me a consistent editor across all the
platforms I use and has, thus far, had all the features I've wanted from it
and none of the features I've not wanted.

> 3) PMView (image viewer and more)

ACDeeCee.

> 4) WarpCenter (GUI enhancement: multiple desktops and such)

Powerbar.

> It's not a problem if one could use DDE. A simple script (not a program even)
> would help.

Can one do DDE to a "normal" editor?

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: mailto: in Signatures

[Angel]

On Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 14:42:55 ,Keith scribbled:

KR>   Is there really any good reason for including the "mailto," since,
KR>   as far as I can tell, most email clients will recognize an email
KR>   address without the prefix?
I may not have the correct answer, but I don't use the mailto: in my TBUDL-list 
templates
simply because I know the readers will be using TB! (or they should be LOL) But when
writing email using my "regular" template, I use mailto: as well as
Angel
simply because some people I write to users who use various email clients, such as 
AOL..
which isn't configured for a clickable link such as [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
(At least thats what I heard) I implement the same theory when typing URLs.

Regards,
~~~Angel

-- 

   "No hay extraños en este mundo, simplemente amigos 
 por conocer"  
@@ 
*   -={+}=-Senza fiduccia niente-={+}=-  *
**
* Scribbled using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1 on: 1/12/2000 14:42:55*
*   under Windows 98 PLUS! 4 .10 Build   A   *
*Running a 200MhZ Pentium with a 8.0Gb & 1.2Gb hard disk(s) 128Mb RAM*
@@

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Re: mailto: in Signatures

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 2:42:55 PM, Keith wrote:
>   address without the prefix? (In other words, won't
>   "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" work as well as "mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]" and be
>   less confusing to non-techies?)

Yes.  :)

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: img src......

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Mark,

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 12:41:19 PM, you wrote:

>  Well  I  would  certainly  add  my  dislike  for  that "feature"(sic)
>  hopefully  everyone  else who can appreciate the security and general
>  annoyance aspects will also vote NO

 I agree that The Bat! should not add this feature, but what I would
 like to know is, is there any way to override the HTML viewer that
 The Bat! has so that I use a dedicated HTML viewer?  I am thinking of
 something similar to how the image viewer works right now.  The one
 that comes with The Bat! is not very good, but there is an option to
 use an external viewer which works great.  Maybe there should be this
 option for HTML so that one could specify one's viewer of choice.

-- 
Thanks for writing
 Januk
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: mailto: in Signatures

[Nick Danger]

In Reference to "mailto: in Signatures" From Keith Russell:

KR> (In other words, won't "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" work as well as
KR> "mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]" and be less confusing to non-techies?)

Hey!! Don't go getting all logical and stuff on us.  If you want to
use common sense you can just take that elsewhere, bub!

;-)

Actually, the same thought dripped outta my head just the other day.

-- 
- Nick

Nick Danger's Complimentary Curse <(©¿©)>:
May an infinite number of anorexic winos seek refuge between your teeth.

Using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  



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Re: img src......

[Angel]

On Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 11:07:50 ,Steve scribbled:

SL> It is a security hole and should not be implemented.
I totally agree my vote? No

Regards,
~~~Angel

-- 

   "No hay extraños en este mundo, simplemente amigos 
 por conocer"  
@@ 
*   -={+}=-Senza fiduccia niente-={+}=-  *
**
* Scribbled using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1 on: 1/12/2000 11:07:50*
*   under Windows 98 PLUS! 4 .10 Build   A   *
*Running a 200MhZ Pentium with a 8.0Gb & 1.2Gb hard disk(s) 128Mb RAM*
@@

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Re: Moderator's Note (was Re: TBUDL@THEBAT.DUTAINT.COM is a private mailing list)

[Angel]

On Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 03:43:10 ,Marck scribbled:

MDP> Right! I now have the absolute and final answer on this.
MDP> This  morning  I've  had a very enlightening private conversation with
MDP> John   Sullivan  (thank  you  John)  on  this  topic  which  makes  it
MDP> *perfectly* clear that we are suffering from the effects of what could
MDP> be said to be a bug in TB!
So it *wasn't* my imagination (or my dizziness) that those were generated each
time I sent a letter to the list... 
I'm glad you spoke to him, and got a dinfinitive reasoning behind the "bug". :D
Thanks for posting this. It sure made me feel a little "better" about the whole mess, 
if
that makes any sense? :D Additionally, it will help the others this is happening with.
Thanks :D

MDP> (see  Angel,  there  was  a  logic to it ;-])
Logic.. hehehe I'm glad someone's brain-chip is working :D Mine "took a hike" a while
back. LOL

MDP> 1)  I  would  like  everyone  on the list to check that their Reply-To
MDP> address  is  the  same  as  their  From: address for posting to the TB
MDP> lists.
[[snip]]
While you're on this track (and I think I suggested this before...) could instructions 
to
this effect be posted somewhere so that "new" users AS WELL AS "new" listmembers
(those *after* this msg was posted) will be privy to what to do? I understand that if a
bug report is put in that it will be responded to, but in the meantime. ??

Thx again, to you and all who responded, for your help and patience with me whilst 
trying
to sort this problem out... :D

Regards,
~~~Angel

-- 

   "No hay extraños en este mundo, simplemente amigos 
 por conocer"  
@@ 
*   -={+}=-Senza fiduccia niente-={+}=-  *
**
* Scribbled using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1 on: 1/12/2000 03:43:10*
*   under Windows 98 PLUS! 4 .10 Build   A   *
*Running a 200MhZ Pentium with a 8.0Gb & 1.2Gb hard disk(s) 128Mb RAM*
@@

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mailto: in Signatures

[Keith Russell]

Hello, fellow Bat-lovers.

  As I recall, the default templates that come with The Bat! include a
  "mailto:" in the signature, as you see below. I've noticed that many
  list subscribers use this format.

  Is there really any good reason for including the "mailto," since,
  as far as I can tell, most email clients will recognize an email
  address without the prefix? (In other words, won't
  "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" work as well as "mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]" and be
  less confusing to non-techies?)

  Thanks.

-- 
 Keith Russell
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: img src......

[Wolfgang Kynast]

Hi,

> just wondering, how long time will take for us, to make RitLabs add
> support for "img src" from external website in html messages.
...
> I'm sure, if
> everyone from us will ask them to do this, they will.

I hope they will not, and I ask them not to bloat TB
with such senseless stuff.

Regards,
Wolfgang

Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA discussion lists

Using The Bat! 1.38e under Windows 95 4.0 Build   B
in Darmstadt, Germany,
on a 166Mhz Cyrix, 128MB SDRAM, half SCSI system ;-)

http://people.frankfurt.netsurf.de/wky/



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TB1.38XE: no auto hangup on NT4

[Karim Khalfa]

Hello ML!

I am trying to have TB 1.38XE to check automatically for mail at
regular intervals, and want it to hang up the modem line after each
attempt.
In the accounts I want checked through the dial-up line, in
Properties/Network I have checked 'Use account-specific setting',
'Dialup Networking Connection', 'Automatic Disconnect', 'No Auto Dial'
and 'Use an existing dial-up connection'. I am launching the mail
check through a batch file with the following command:
"path_to_thebat" /NOLOGO /CHECK"account_name" /EXIT

It works fine at home on Win98SE: TB launch, ISP dialling, mail check,
hang-up.
At the office, on WinNT4 SP5 workstation I have a problem: the line is
automatically hang-up only if some new mail is found. In case there is
no new mail the line stays on forever. What am I doing wrong? Is there
a way to force a dialup line hangup on NT4 that I could launch through
a scheduler like Winat? (the 'hangup if line idle' setting in Control
Panel/Modems/Properties does not seem to function either).

Thanks,
Karim



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Re: img src......

[Mark Aston]

Hi Alexander,

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 7:07:27 PM, you wrote:

AVK> Hi there!

AVK> On 12 Jan 00, at 12:16, Sashka wrote
AVK> about "img src..":

>> just wondering, how long time will take for us, to make RitLabs add
>> support for "img src" from external website in html messages. 

AVK> I really *hope*, that they will *never* implement this!

AVK> I HOPE, that contrary to what you suggest we'll all say "NO" distinctly and 
AVK> clearly! I hope further that everyone here (or at least the majority) will 
express 
AVK> their *dislike* for your idea.

 Well  I  would  certainly  add  my  dislike  for  that "feature"(sic)
 hopefully  everyone  else who can appreciate the security and general
 annoyance aspects will also vote NO

-- 
Best regards,
 Mark  

Using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1
under Windows 98 4 10 Build 1998

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The Problem with the lost INBOX ...

[Clemens 'Gullevek' Schwaighofer]

Hello The Bat! ML,

  Well, I couldn't wait, so I tried myself and renaimed the .tmp file
  to the messages.msb file and voila it worked again ...

  very strange indeed to me ...

Best regards, Clemens
written with TheBat! 1.38e
on Windows 98, 4 10
Build   A 
on Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 8:50:40 PM



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Re: Grid Index Out of Range

[Mark Worsham]

Hi Nancy -

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 1:24:49 PM, you wrote:

N> Ever since upgrading to version 1.38 I periodically get the error
N> message "Grid Index Out of Range" when viewing and deleting messages.
N> After that happens I can no longer view any messages until I close
N> out the program and restart it. I can't figure any particular
N> circumstances under which it occurs.  It seems to be random

N> Is anyone else experiencing this problem?  Is there a way to stop it?

I have received this error a couple of times, and it was always when deleting
fairly large groups of messages, including threaded messages, via the delete
thread keystroke combo (SHIFT-CTRL-DEL).

-- 
Mark Worshammailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Plano, TX  USA



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Re: ERROR ... please help ...

[Clemens 'Gullevek' Schwaighofer]

Hello tracer,

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 5:32:50 AM, tracer wrote:

Clemens>>   Suddenly the bat gave me an error, that there would be a problem
Clemens>>   with my inbox and there is one file left there called bad4141.TMP
Clemens>>   ... how can I repeair it ... please it's my inbox!!! help me!!
> if the mentioned repair utility doesnt work...
> 1. try copy to a different name first
> 2. try opening with quickview plus or anything suitable, hex editor??
> to see if there is any data in it
> if there is no data in that file, there is nothing to recover.
> If there is, several tools exist to get your data out  but likely not
> to another inbox.
> More importantly, WHY did this happen.
> Did you have a system crash? Enough ram???

First, I today, reapaired it myself. I just renamed that file to the
message file and voila I have my inbox back.

previous errors ? none, I just started the bat and there the error
came. It's very strange. btw, the .tmp file had the size of 54 MB ...




Best regards, Clemens
written with TheBat! 1.38e
on Windows 98, 4 10
Build   A 
on Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 8:32:52 PM



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Grid Index Out of Range

[Nancy]

Ever since upgrading to version 1.38 I periodically get the error
message "Grid Index Out of Range" when viewing and deleting messages.
After that happens I can no longer view any messages until I close
out the program and restart it. I can't figure any particular
circumstances under which it occurs.  It seems to be random

Is anyone else experiencing this problem?  Is there a way to stop it?

-- 
 Nancy [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: Move old messages (was:Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!)

[Allie Martin]

On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:43:30 -0800, Januk Aggarwal wrote:

[..snip..]

> Ok, perhaps I didn't make myself clear, I meant that if they *add* the
> date criteria, so you would have to match some string (like you do
> currently) and the age to activate the filter.  Then if you wanted to
> purge an entire folder, you just put a general filter which matches all
> strings. :)

OK, if they add the filter by string capability, how would the
filter be triggered with the present functionality that TB! has?

> Well it depends on my needs, right?  If I want to filter all mail from
> one folder to one other folder, then I can just do one common string.
> For example I could search for the letter e, anywhere in the message.
> I'm 99.999% sure to get all messages from folder A into folder B.
> However if I want to separate the messages in folder A to folders
> B,C,D,E,F,G,... then of course I'll need to create a specific string
> appropriate to the task.  How else could that be done?

Soon after my reply to your previous message I felt silly because
I do use a non-specific filter string for spam filtering and that is the
letter 'e' as you mentioned. I agree then that a single filter rule using
a non-specific search string added to the message age criterion could be
use to move all messages within the specified age limits. :)

>>  You would then have have to apply it *manually*!!! That does
>> not make it easy.

> I'm not sure I understand. Why would you have to apply it manually?

Well, either the filtering will be dynamic in that, once set to
automatic, any message that fits the filter criteria would be immediately
filtered. The only other way would be to support filter sets and the
ability to apply a filter set to a folder upon closing/opening the folder
or when TB closes or starts.

> The whole point of a filter set is that it should be optional to run
> automatically or manually only.

Automatic filtering in TB is quite limited in scope at present. :(

> I'm getting a little confused, are we not arguing the same point here?

Quite likely we are. You were however arguing, or rather
*discussing* ahead of me (the only person I have argued with on this list
is Steve and that's because of his argumentative nature ), armed with
functionality that TB does not yet have. You proposed adding filter
criteria based on age to the sorting office filters applet as an easy
alternative to my suggestion, without mentioning anything about trigger
mechanisms to promote automation; trigger mechanisms which don't yet exist
in TB!.  You mentioned them towards the end though.

Anyway, the superior solution requires an overhauling of sorting
office filters. That seems to be a version 2 phenomenon. The other
solution only requires tweaking of the present functionality. I agree
wholeheartedly, that the overhaul route is the better of the two but
they'll soon be abandoning version 1.xx and I doubt they'll be making any
major changes to it.


-- 
-=Allie=-  | Using The Bat! v1.39 Beta/1
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   | Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 6)
   
   [ The only thing shorter than a weekend is a vacation. ]


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Re: Move old messages (was:Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!)

[Oliver Sturm]

Hi Allie Martin,

On Dienstag, 11. Januar 2000 at 22:54:32 you wrote:

> Take  for example my folder called family. I filter messages
> from  all  family members to this folder. I wish to archive messages
> from  this  folder  to another folder. Using the purge facility is a
> lot easier than making new filters for moving the messages when they
> have reached a certain date.

I'd  agree  to  have  both options (meaning using filters _and_ having
some special purging option), but I wouldn't like to give even more to
do  to that filtering system... There are about 40 filters on my inbox
and  I  can follow each byte flowing into the folders with the eyes ;)
It's not really that hard, of course, but that feature doesn't seem to
get  faster  if  you  add  many filters or many conditions. So maybe a
separate option might be handled faster.

Oliver Sturm

--
%make love
Make:  Don't know how to make love.  Stop.
--
Oliver Sturm / <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Key ID: 71D86996
Fingerprint: 8085 5C52 60B8 EFBD DAD0  78B8 CE7F 38D7 71D8 6996

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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 12 Jan 00, at 9:03, Steve Lamb wrote
about "Re: suggestion- / wish-list":

> > Steve, any idea what editors you have seen under windows which might
> > do the job as external editors for the Bat??
> 
> Well, an editor which just edits plain text would work.  As I've said, my
> preference is for vim which is really a unix[1] editor.  My other preference is
> joe, another unix editor.  I've not looked at GUI based editors ever since my
> OS/2 days when I used to use Mr. Ed for my external editor for PMMail/2.

Hey, Steve, seems we were working just in the same manner with you in *our* 
OS/2 days;-) Under Windoze, I was always missing (at least), four things:
1) WatchCat (system spying and maintenance);
2) Mr.Ed (editor)
3) PMView (image viewer and more)
4) WarpCenter (GUI enhancement: multiple desktops and such)

For the 1) above I still have nothing under Windoze; for the second WinEdt 
seems to be even a *better* replacement (although Mr.Ed was faster and 
smaller, but that's a usual thing when you compare the Windows application to 
its OS/2 counterpart;-(); for the third, nothing would qualify, but AFAIK 
PMView will be soon available for Windoze, which is a really good thing (tm): 
www.pmview.com for all interested; for the fourth there is PerfectScreens 
(www.softwareutilities.com) which is not the same, but can stand for a 
functional replacement given the overall quality of Windows GUI compared to 
OS/2 PM;-)

> Hell, calling a different editor with any name shouldn't be that hard.
> The only problem, as people have rightfully pointed out, is that if the editor
> doesn't exit after the task at hand is completed there is a problem
> signaling to the email client to read in the temp file and continue with its
> task.

It's not a problem if one could use DDE. A simple script (not a program even) 
would help.

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  Life is what happens to you while you are making other plans.

--- 
PGP public keys on keyservers:
0xA2194BF9 (RSA);   0x214135A2 (DH/DSS)
fingerprints:
F222 4AEF EC9F 5FA6  7515 910A 2429 9CB1 (RSA)
A677 81C9 48CF 16D1 B589  9D33 E7D5 675F 2141 35A2 (DH/DSS) 
--- 

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Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 12 Jan 00, at 9:11, Steve Lamb wrote
about "Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally":

> Tuesday, January 11, 2000, 11:50:36 PM, tracer wrote:
> > why a bad idea?
> 
> Because of the current internet climate and the whole design behind the
> mail system and how SMTP servers fit into it.

Indeed;-)

> There really isn't a need for an email client to implement a full SMTP
> server.  That is what the SMTP servers are for.  

Yup, anybody probably can get a free account at one of the numerous web-
based systems existing. Some of them offer a free SMTP/POP3 also (I use 
www.mail.ru, for example). Some of them even offer a free IMAP4 (sorry, 
don't remember the URL; anyhow, it's a system located in Russia, and the 
user should typically select a system physically close to his own location).

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  It's only a hobby ... only a hobby ... only a

--- 
PGP public keys on keyservers:
0xA2194BF9 (RSA);   0x214135A2 (DH/DSS)
fingerprints:
F222 4AEF EC9F 5FA6  7515 910A 2429 9CB1 (RSA)
A677 81C9 48CF 16D1 B589  9D33 E7D5 675F 2141 35A2 (DH/DSS) 
--- 

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Re: img src......

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 12 Jan 00, at 12:16, Sashka wrote
about "img src..":

> just wondering, how long time will take for us, to make RitLabs add
> support for "img src" from external website in html messages. 

I really *hope*, that they will *never* implement this!

> With Serial number in headers it took somewhere one week for them, to remove
> it. Let ask all of us to add this feature also. I'm sure, if everyone from us
> will ask them to do this, they will. and won't tell that they not going to
> write own web browser ;-) 

I HOPE, that contrary to what you suggest we'll all say "NO" distinctly and 
clearly! I hope further that everyone here (or at least the majority) will express 
their *dislike* for your idea.

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  The value of a program is inversely proportional to the weight
  of its output.

--- 
PGP public keys on keyservers:
0xA2194BF9 (RSA);   0x214135A2 (DH/DSS)
fingerprints:
F222 4AEF EC9F 5FA6  7515 910A 2429 9CB1 (RSA)
A677 81C9 48CF 16D1 B589  9D33 E7D5 675F 2141 35A2 (DH/DSS) 
--- 

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Re: img src......

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 11:02:36 AM, Mark wrote:
> I really _don't_ want TB! to go get images from a website.  If they add that
> functionality, I sure hope it's an option that you can enable or disable.

It is a security hole and should not be implemented.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: img src......

[Mark Worsham]

Hi Sashka -

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 11:16:23 AM, you wrote:

LG>>> and viewing href'd images?
>> This will be possible when we will write our own Web browser - I
>> guess, this is a topic for another interview, but you should wait for
>> it for several months :-)

S> just wondering, how long time will take for us, to make RitLabs add
S> support for "img src" from external website in html messages. With
S> Serial number in headers it took somewhere one week for them, to
S> remove it. Let ask all of us to add this feature also. I'm sure, if
S> everyone from us will ask them to do this, they will. and won't tell
S> that they not going to write own web browser ;-)

I don't mind if they write a browser, I can use it or not, my choice.

I really _don't_ want TB! to go get images from a website.  If they add that
functionality, I sure hope it's an option that you can enable or disable.

-- 
Mark Worshammailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Plano, TX  USA



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Re: Move old messages (was:Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!)

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Allie,

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 3:57:21 AM, you wrote:

> Not very easily as you put it. Especially if only the date/age
> criteria are added. I would love if they were but other additions to the
> filter mechanism would be needed to create a similar effect  _easily_.
> :)

Ok, perhaps I didn't make myself clear, I meant that if they *add* the
date criteria, so you would have to match some string (like you do
currently) and the age to activate the filter.  Then if you wanted to
purge an entire folder, you just put a general filter which matches
all strings. :)

> You would have to create a filter with strings for each person in
> that folder.

Well it depends on my needs, right?  If I want to filter all mail from
one folder to one other folder, then I can just do one common string.
For example I could search for the letter e, anywhere in the message.
I'm 99.999% sure to get all messages from folder A into folder B.
However if I want to separate the messages in folder A to folders
B,C,D,E,F,G,... then of course I'll need to create a specific string
appropriate to the task.  How else could that be done?

>  You would then have have to apply it *manually*!!! That does
> not make it easy.

I'm not sure I understand. Why would you have to apply it manually?
The whole point of a filter set is that it should be optional to run
automatically or manually only.

>> Sure it does.  If you use the Read or Replied mail filters, then your
>> messages are processed *after* the folder receives them.

> But that applies to the Inbox only. What if you wish to regularly
> filter out messages beyond a certain age from another folder?

I'm getting a little confused, are we not arguing the same point here?
My suggestion was an attempt to address your question (although I made
no distinction between the Inbox and the other folders).

Veering away for just a second, why should there be any fundamental
difference between the Inbox and any other folder (ignoring the
Outbox/Sent folders)?  The only thing I can think of is for the
initial filtering, but the "Inbox" filters could be applied before the
message is assigned to any folder.  Then any messages that have not
been directed somewhere could have a default filter which puts them in
the Inbox.  Am I missing anything here?

>  That would
> require another set of filters reapplied *manually* to a folder containing
> filtered messages. :) Where's the automation in that? Automation is what
> makes it easy!

That's the suggestion! :)  The idea is to get a date criteria, so I
do *not* have to do this manually.  Right now I *do* have to filter
my old messages manually (either by drag and drop or a manual only
filter).  I think we're competing for the same spot on the same team
here. :)

>> Of course the folders would
>> need to be changed so that instead of having "Delete old messages on
>> exit," they should have "Run Date Filter Set on Exit."

> And yes, you have hit the nail on the head. :) Two additional
> features would need to be implemented to produce an automated filtering
> system that would serve as a purge/archiving mechanism for folders. Filter
> sets would need to be implemented. One would not be enough as you proposed
> since you'd need to run the purge/archiving on multiple folders.

Plus when to filter is a question that would have needed answering
anyway. When programming something that looks at age of messages,
someone has to decide when the message database should be examined. In
fact, the more I think about it, mine might not be the best solution,
since it will only serve to slow down the shutdown process. Plus some
people might like watching filtering actions to ensure that it is done
correctly. My suggestion does not allow this easily. Perhaps a better
solution would be to apply the date filters when the *folder* is
closed. But I think this is a relatively minor point that does not
affect how the basic idea should work.

>  One would
> need to be able to have a filter set be applied when the folder opens,
> when it closes or when TB closes. This is clearly the superior solution
> but it sounds like a major step which hopefully will be implemented in
> version 2.

I don't know how major a step it is, the date search capability is
already in "Advanced Filtering" and all the other filter side stuff is
already implemented. The only other thing that needs implementing is a
trigger mechanism, but as discussed, that too exists with the purge on
exit option.   :)

> The code is already there to easily implement what I suggested,
> hence my suggestion. :)

If only it were that easy... :)

-- 
Thanks for writing
 Januk
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Using The Bat! 1.39 Beta/1
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 8:09:19 AM, Claudius wrote:
> There are different ways to communicate, to write emails, to quote. I
> quote the way I want to. I exchange emails with enough people from
> enough countries with enough experience that I decide how to quote in
> what situation.

Then sit, down, shut up and understand that in the online community the
way I described quoting is how it is done.

> If you can't cope with my quoting, don't read it.

If you can't quote properly you *WILL* have problems.

SL>> Because the standard convention in the printed medium when quoting someone is 
radically different
SL>> than here.

> Steve, what are you talking about? What convention? I can't believe
> this. 'Change is bad!'

The convention of the culture that you have entered.  I cannot believe I
still have to argue over this with every newbie that comes into a new culture!

>>> Right! He answered to 'the ideology' with technical aspects, because
>>> there are no visual (or 'ideology') differences!
SL>> Uh, yes, there are.  Scoring, for one.

> Where?

Look it up.  I'm tired of explaining how things are to you only to have
you act like a child and decide you don't want to place nice.

> Standard? CUA? Tradition? Is this the reason why you don't want new
> features in TheBat!?

Partially, yes.  Why should we try to wrestle with problems that were
solved 10 years ago.  Do you constantly question which end of a hammer to use
with a nail?

> You are everywhere talking about conventions, standards. It sounds to me
> that your 'decade and a half' in this 'culture' have made you inflexible.

I'm actually more flexible that most.

> I help dozens of people from each age to start working with their computer,
> the internet, email, ftp and so on.

You don't know how sad that makes me considering your utter lack of
respect for the culture, its conventions and standards.

> that make internet easier, but standards and conventions is not all there is
> in live. That black/white glasses is not good!

No, it isn't.  However, when dealing with computers conforming to the
standards and conventions means you can communicate effectively.  Throwing
them to the wind means you cannot.

You're acting like a stuck-up American in China yelling at a Chinaman
thinking that volume will somehow impart the capability of understanding
English on the poor fellow even though *YOU* are the foreigner.

> Your 'standard'-mail really made me look astonished.

Good.  Hopefully you'll straighten up your act.

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 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 7:45:46 AM, Claudius wrote:
> So what? You'd change this, RITLABS doesn't, maybe it is easy to
> change, but is it really important?

Yes.  Conforming to the standards of the interface is important so people
can effectively use the product without thinking about it.

> There are 10E+10 things that are more important than opening 10 mails
> simultaneously!! Standards are important, but if specification XY is not
> sooo needed, I'd skip it, too, until I find the time.

When did I say open?  Personally I use the CNTL, SHIFT and CNTL-SHIFT to
mark email that I want to *delete* leaving the mail I want to read alone.

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Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 7:33:16 AM, Claudius wrote:
> They serve well for people receiving/sending less than 10 emails/day
> and that is why they are email clients that cover the basics.

That's fine, there are plenty of clients out there that cover it.  We
don't need to dumb down another one in the interest of the masses.

> Right! This is all optional. I wanted to make clear, that spell
> checking to me - personally - is more important than IMAP. You said
> IMAP was core. You both say that you want the core of the mailer
> should be worked on first; my point is that I consider different
> things to be basics of an email client and on that should be worked,
> too.

IMAP is core because it is a base protocol for sending and retrieving
mail.  Without that protocol implemented it is hard for you to have mail to
spell check.  Does that make it clear what is a "core" feature as opposed to
an optional one?

> You want me to spell check or read html-mails with other applications?

Yes.  No matter how good the RITLABS programmers are they will not be able
to build a spell checker as good as a team of programmers who have dedicated
themselves to building nothing but a spell checker.



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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 2:27:53 AM, Oleg wrote:
> It  can do any task at hand depending on user skills even with no need
> to change configuration. Just visit Kizhi for an example.

Then why hold it up as an argument against a single tool?  :P

> I didn't say it's all impossible. I just meant that at every task I do
> implement I will need only 1/Nth part of the SuperEditor (vim?). I don't
> think that it is better to spawn another process which first will decide
> which task it spawned for to configure itself in proper way and to load only
> what I need now then just to have a standartized interface within built-in
> editor. Which is almost already done -- most of editor specific shortcuts
> are calling editor specific functions for most editors, while most of common
> functions has common shortcuts.

This is not true.  The "common" shortcuts often are implemented
differently in each program.  How they behave is different.  Furthermore, when
you get used to one editor and switch to another at some point you find
yourself wishing for some feature in the first editor even though at the onset
you didn't expect to need that feature.  Case in point, how many "wouldn't it
be nice if x editor did this like y editor" suggestions do you see for the
different editors floating around?  Another...  I have used paragraph reformat
in my perl coding.  ;)

> Why are you so inconsistant? It's underlying data also ASCII text and it has
> the very same basic functions. Where is your difference between 'just' and
> 'not just'?

No, word processing isn't just ASCII text.  Word processing also involves
a lot of formatting data which may or may not be represented in ASCII.  With
word processing 1/2 is formatting, 1/2 is text.  In "straight" ASCII text we
might have minimal formatting (indents, quotes with >, etc) but they are
minimal compared to the overall scheme and are always represented in ASCII.

SL>> Funny, vim uses no CNTL-ALT-SHIFT combonations.  I also don't consider it
SL>> bloated compared to reimplementing the same basic editor 20 times.
> Don't vim use standard windows edittext object? I'm sure TB! does.

No, it doesn't.  TB! does.  OTOH that is because it is trying to conform
to the standard CUA model as well as add its extensions to it.  Why do you
think I advocate a common editor based on *USER CHOICE*.

> I mean QuickTemplates  e.g. containing %OATTACHEMENTS macro. How?

What is that?

> I don't know 20 different keystrokes just to del line. I use Shift-Dn,
> Del. Works on all comprehensive editors I know (I don't use UNIX).

That is the CUA standard.  It also is not deleting a line, it is marking
text and deleting text.  There is no "delete line" in CUA.

delete line
dd - vim
d, down arrow - vim
c$ - vim
c, down arrow - vim
^Y - wordstar (& joe)

mark & delete
v, down, d - vim
^Kb, down, ^Kk,^Ky - joe

Don't know emacs, pico, jed, fte, and a dozen or so others.

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Re: [spam score 3.48/10.0 -pobox] Re[2]: FETCH - Could Not Create Output File - Update

[Keith Russell]

Hello, fellow Bat-lovers.

On Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 1:13:00 AM, tracer wrote:

[snip]

Keith>> It actually seems to be a file maintenance error caused, or at least 
facilitated, by The Bat!
> No, its 99% sure a file the bat is trying to write to/create and cannot.
> You could run a find over your system, search for files modified the
> last day and see whats there impacting the bat.
> Check the drive on space available (!!!), files being write protected
> (unlikely).
> Maybe even a temp directory being corrupted/filled up.

It appears that you might have hit the nail squarely on the head here,
tracer. c:\temp had Bat-related files, and c:\windows\temp had nearly
14,000 (yes! You read right!) batxxx.tmp files. I cleared both
directories and, so far, everything seems to be working. Downloads are
also very fast. The acid test will come later when I have a large
volume of messages waiting for download. I do wish I knew what caused the
problem in the first place.

Thanks to the several people who posted lengthy and helpful responses
both on the list and privately. Maybe next time, I'll need to be
appearing to bash The Bat! from the beginning--it seems to bring out
its defenders 8-).

Seriously, there are a lot of things I like about The Bat!, and if
this problem really is resolved, I will be a very happy camper.

Thanks again.

[snip]

-- 
 Keith Russell
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re[2]: FETCH - Could Not Create Output File - Update

[tracer]

Hello Keith Russell,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 01:48:15 -0700 GMT your local time,
which was Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 3:48:15 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Keith Russell wrote:

Keith> Well, I tried to install The Bat! in a different directory (twice) and it hung 
my system both times. The program was not listed 
Keith> in Add/Remove Programs, so I made a copy of my TB directory, ran Quarterdeck 
Cleansweep to uninstall, then manually 
Keith> deleted all the RIT subtrees in the registry. Then I reinstalled in a different 
directory, totally clean with no data.

Keith> I started a downloaded, and it immediately hung with the FETCH error

Keith> Keith
But the Bat on my system IS mentioned as installed software which can
be uninstalled

Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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img src......

[Sashka]

Hello ,

LG>> and viewing href'd images?
> This will be possible when we will write our own Web browser - I
> guess, this is a topic for another interview, but you should wait for
> it for several months :-)

just wondering, how long time will take for us, to make RitLabs add
support for "img src" from external website in html messages. With
Serial number in headers it took somewhere one week for them, to
remove it. Let ask all of us to add this feature also. I'm sure, if
everyone from us will ask them to do this, they will. and won't tell
that they not going to write own web browser ;-)

-- 
 Sashka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: FETCH - Could Not Create Output File - Update

[Keith Russell]

Hello, fellow Bat-lovers.

On Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 12:35:31 AM, Thomas wrote:

[snip]

>>>Tell us again about your system
>>>configuration. I think someone on this list had problems which
>>>suddenly disappeared when he upgraded from 64MB RAM.

KR>> Pentium II 333 with 64MB RAM

> Yup, IIRC someone upgraded the RAM from 64MB to 128 MB, and the
> problem (whichever it was at that time) disappeared. As for the
> reason, I assumed at that time TB has a problem swapping, but that was
> not confirmed.

That's very interesting. I've been thinking about going to 128, but
with the high memory prices, have been holding off. Sounds like
something I might want to reconsider.

> However, I think what tracer said also makes a lot of sense; so I
> would reinstall TB first somewhere else.

Didn't help, but another suggestion of his probably did. See my other
post to the list.

Thanks for the reply.

-- 
 Keith Russell
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Scoring (was:Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!)

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 1:37:36 AM, Stefan wrote:
> OK, you'll see it :-)

There's much more I'd rather see.  However, I've made that abundantly
clear over the past few months.

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Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 11, 2000, 11:50:36 PM, tracer wrote:
> why a bad idea?

Because of the current internet climate and the whole design behind the
mail system and how SMTP servers fit into it.

Technically, a lot of ISPs now will not accept port 25 connections from
dynamic IP space.  Some other ISPs are going so far as redirecting outbound
port 25 traffic to their mail server to force the issue.

Then there is also the issue of the purpose of an SMTP server.  It is
there to deliver mail.  Delivering mail is hard to do for people on a dial-up
when their connection is down.

Finally, opening up port 25 unless you know what you're doing is a bad
idea.  Even I with my setup at home and my experience in the ISP field have
troubles sometime.

There really isn't a need for an email client to implement a full SMTP
server.  That is what the SMTP servers are for.  When people get a connection
they also, more often than not, get access to an SMTP server they can use.
Personally I have two servers my home and work machines can use to deliver
mail.  If I ask some people I can up that to four.  I don't need that on the
local machine.

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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 11, 2000, 9:14:06 PM, tracer wrote:
> Steve, any idea what editors you have seen under windows which might
> do the job as external editors for the Bat??

Well, an editor which just edits plain text would work.  As I've said, my
preference is for vim which is really a unix[1] editor.  My other preference is
joe, another unix editor.  I've not looked at GUI based editors ever since my
OS/2 days when I used to use Mr. Ed for my external editor for PMMail/2.

> Presumably calling a different editor with a fake notepad.exe shouldnt
> be that complicated to arange

Hell, calling a different editor with any name shouldn't be that hard.
The only problem, as people have rightfully pointed out, is that if the editor
doesn't exit after the task at hand is completed there is a problem
signaling to the email client to read in the temp file and continue with its
task.

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Re[4]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello tracer,

t> Spell checkers can be plugins I thought, several other products do
t> that.
t> I see nothing wrong with the current HTML viewing, if I want to see it
t> properly I can open it with my browser or go on the web.
t> Again, one could make it a switch, open with The bat or open with
t> external browser  and specify which one...

No problem with that...

--
With best regards,
 Claudius Regn mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Using The Bat! 1.38e under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  



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Re: Editor (was: Re: suggestion- / wish-list)

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 11, 2000, 8:10:26 PM, Thomas wrote:
> external editor, but that's a matter of taste. Only the message body
> is to be composed in the external editor.

That, too, is my preference.

> Sounds good to me. What happens in PMMail when you are finsihed editing and
> want to send/save/discard the message?

It returns to the header dialog and lets you chose from there.  You can
reedit, etc.  It doesn't display the message, something I wish it did do just
for final confirmation.

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello Steve,

SL> No.  The standard convention is to have quotes preceded with the > symbol.

There are different ways to communicate, to write emails, to quote. I
quote the way I want to. I exchange emails with enough people from
enough countries with enough experience that I decide how to quote in
what situation. If you can't cope with my quoting, don't read it. I am
open to new ideas from other people, you obviously need your standard.
If there would be a rule for jumping off a brindge, you probably
would use it.

SL> It has been that way for almost as long as I can remember.

'it has always been that way - and this is the way it should be! Our
grand-grand-grand father did it that way. Change is bad.'

SL> So let's just say for well over a decade and a half that is how things are done in 
this
SL> medium.

This is how you do it. 'Change is bad. I'm not that flexible'.

SL> Because the standard convention in the printed medium when quoting someone is 
radically different
SL> than here.

Steve, what are you talking about? What convention? I can't believe
this. 'Change is bad!'

>> The idea of exchanging news, opinions or help is similar. I read mails from
>> other people, I read my paper mail, postcards, I answer email, paper mail,
>> postcards and even news from news.xxx.yyy .
SL> And, your point?  None of that refutes my statement that the way that they
SL> are traditionally dealt with are radically different.

'Traditionally'?? 'Change is bad!'

>> Right! He answered to 'the ideology' with technical aspects, because
>> there are no visual (or 'ideology') differences!
SL> Uh, yes, there are.  Scoring, for one.

Where?

SL> You didn't make that clear.  I read it that you was saying that TB! was A+
SL> software engineering.  I do not consider it so given that it doesn't even
SL> conform to the standard CUA keys for marking items in a list context.

Standard? CUA? Tradition? Is this the reason why you don't want new
features in TheBat! ? You are everywhere talking about conventions,
standards. It sounds to me that your 'decade and a half' in this
'culture' have made you inflexible. I help dozens of people from each
age to start working with their computer, the internet, email, ftp and
so on. It sometimes is hard to convince them to use and respect some
conventions that make internet easier, but standards and conventions
is not all there is in live. That black/white glasses is not good!

Your 'standard'-mail really made me look astonished.

--
With best regards,
 Claudius Regn mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Using The Bat! 1.38e under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  



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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 11, 2000, 7:28:19 PM, John wrote:
> I often alter these headers in the middle of message composition. This
> is convenient to do with a built-in (or tightly coupled) editor, less
> so with a completely external editor.

Conceded.  OTOH, I, more often than not, want to pipe text to an external
filter, reformat text in a certain way, etc.  IE, I'm willing to give up that
insignificant convenience for the larger convenience of having a more powerful
editor so the bulk of my editing time is reduced.

> So it goes out the door as soon as I close the editor. Great. At the moment
> the last thing I do is decide where the message will go (which often means
> to the trash!), in one step, and this is how I would like it to stay. Again,
> it needs very tight editor integration to do this with an external editor.

Then don't configure it to send immediately.

>> Then get the editor author to add those email specific items.

> Ah, I'll just get them added to Notepad. Won't be a minute!

Notepad, no.  But try getting features added to open source editors in
active development.

Wait, I'm going about this argument the wrong way.  Let me just put it
this way.  Which are you more likely to get done...  Getting an author of an
editor to put in modifications to make his editor more powerful or getting the
author of an email client to put in options into his editor to get it closer
to other editors in power?

The former is worried about only one thing, the editor.  Putting in
capabilities that make it easy to use with email means his editor can have
wider use.  The latter is worried about the email client first and foremost
and knows that a "good enough" editor is, well, "good enough."

Your argument for a scripting editor is moot.  I've found that the editors
that I use don't need scripting.  If I need scripting I just write a perl
script and pipe the text through that script.  Why would I want an editor to
have utter and complete scripting when I could have a specialized scripting
language for that.

Wow, that fits my theme.  Specialized tools for specialize purposes.
Editor for editing, spell checker for spell checking, email client for email,
scripting language for scripting.  Each of those components is more powerful,
in my eyes, by creating the interfaces than reimplementing everything.  That
is because I only need to learn one editor, one scripting language, one spell
checker, one email client.  I can put them together to make something better
than if each of them tried to make everything else.

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello Steve,

SL> No, they do not.  Do you really want me to get into my rant about how
SL> email clients are a shadow of what they could be based on my experience with
SL> past software on older hardware?

They serve well for people receiving/sending less than 10 emails/day
and that is why they are email clients that cover the basics.

>> I'd rather have spell checking than IMAP. I'd rather have html-viewing
>> than IMAP.
SL> Neither have anything to do with the core of an email client and can be
SL> provided with other applications.

Right! This is all optional. I wanted to make clear, that spell
checking to me - personally - is more important than IMAP. You said
IMAP was core. You both say that you want the core of the mailer
should be worked on first; my point is that I consider different
things to be basics of an email client and on that should be worked,
too.

Again:
SL> and can be provided with other applications.

You want me to spell check or read html-mails with other applications?
That's why I use TheBat!
I want to have IMAP implemented best as it can be - as a lot of other
features Stefan described. And not just IMAP.

--
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 Claudius Regn mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Using The Bat! 1.38e under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  



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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello Steve,

SL> Sure it does.  Let's take, for example, non-conformity to the CUA
SL> standard.  Open up TB, pick a folder with > 10 messages in it.  Now, on the list
SL> view do this.  Select message #1.  Hold shift and select message #3.  Now,
SL> press control and select message #6.  Now, still holding control, hold also
SL> shift and select message #10.  The end result should be messages #1-#3, #6-#10
SL> selected.  TB!, however, deselects #1-#3 when you do the second shift and you
SL> only get #6-#10.  It does not recognize the CNTL-SHIFT behavior.

So what? You'd change this, RITLABS doesn't, maybe it is easy to
change, but is it really important? There are 10E+10 things that are
more important than opening 10 mails simultaneously!! Standards are
important, but if specification XY is not sooo needed, I'd skip it,
too, until I find the time.

--
With best regards,
 Claudius Regn mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Using The Bat! 1.38e under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  



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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello Alexander,

>> I'd rather have spell checking than IMAP. I'd rather have html-viewing
>> than IMAP.

AVK> That's only you, please speak for *yourself* only;-)

Alex, do you read what you quote?? ;) "I'd"
 ~~~
--
With best regards,
 Claudius Regn mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Using The Bat! 1.38e under Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  



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Re[2]: envelope priority colours

[tracer]

Hello Alex Sanyukovitch,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:50:50  +0200 GMT your local time,
which was Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 9:50:50 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Alex Sanyukovitch wrote:

Alex> Hello tracer,

Alex> Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 7:58:18 AM, you wrote:

t>>   The current icon for not read to read mail changes but its virtually
t>>   impossible to see the colour of prioritised emails after being read.
t>>   Could the red part om the sideflaps be made darker?

Alex> So why don't you edit glyphs file?
Because if I cannot see it properly others cannot either.
So it makes more sense at a suitable time to modify the colours.
Even if the other glyph file may have better contrast (I havent tried
it yet) it still means that there are glyphs in there which arent
doing their job...

t>> Best regards,

t>> tracer

t>> Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
t>> NO MICROSOFT VIRUS INFECTIONS

t>> mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Alex> Please, move "-- \n" before your "Best regards,"! ;-))



Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re[3]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Douglas Hinds]

Hello tracer & all fellow TBUDL members,

Tuesday, January 11, 2000, 10:14:47 PM, tracer wrote in response to
Alex's saying:

Alexander>> Therefore I wish to solidarize with those who are
Alexander>> *against* adding HTML editing, news-reading,
Alexander>> virus-checking and web-browsing capabilities. I think

t> HTML editing, 100% against it...

I too hate receiving html / enriched text. I WOULD very much like to
be able to edit incoming messages however, as well as flag them
according to their importance on at at least a 1-5 scale. The message
color coding Alex mentioned earlier is another simple option that
makes sense to me.

As for editing messages for my own reference, that ability to
UNDERLINE or otherwise highlight importance passages would help
greatly. I don't think this need be a complicated option and is
certainly not a luxury, but rather basic to using email and following
up on whatever needs it.

If the correct keyboard combination for making words upper case is
ever discovered (and posted) for all standard (i.e. Latin American
Spanish) keyboards, that might do it if it's functionality was
extended to all selected text, and not just just word for word as is.

t> I would like to see a newsreader though, but not merged as anything
t> multi threading / multiserver would speed my gathering of files/news
t> up. Essentially system throughput from the news server is better.
t> But I wouldnt want it in the mail program.

Right. Netmanage's Z-Mail + Forum and PMMail + PMINews are good
examples of that, although the first dropped it's Windows line of
these. (Their browser - websurfer, is at *least* as fast as Opera
though). Netscape of course is a different story.

This would also be more profitable for Ritlabs. But they should first
finish what they started and get TB v.2 out there with a much better
integration and accessibility of TB's features. Filters need to be
activate-able on a one by one and folder by folder or global basis,
and an offline / online button would save a long of accounts /
properties / options changing every damn one goees on or off line with
TB open. The option to start off line is needed too.

Douglas

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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 11 Jan 00, at 14:05, Steve Lamb wrote
about "Re: suggestion- / wish-list":

> >> Which is possible.  I've seen books written in just VI.  OTOH, you'll note
> >> I didn't put word processing into my list because I do know that is a
> >> different task than just editing ASCII text.
> 
> > Unless you use TeX;-) In this latter case, it *is* editing ASCII;-) Time to
> > learn a bit?
> 
>  Nope.  As I said, I've seen books written in just VI.  I didn't say what
> other tools were used.  In that particular case, TeX.  IIRC it was one of the
> O'Reilly books but which one eludes me at the moment.

Donald E. Knuth "The TeX book" pub. by Addison-Wesley, AFAIR. This is the 
starting point;-) The book about TeX written by the author of TeX in TeX;-)

P.S. I *hope* you happen to know _who_ Donald Knuth is? I hope you've 
already read some of his books... Yeah, I really hope;-)

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  Don't let school interfere with your education.

--- 
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fingerprints:
F222 4AEF EC9F 5FA6  7515 910A 2429 9CB1 (RSA)
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Re: Move old messages (was:Re: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!)

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 12 Jan 00, at 0:24, Januk Aggarwal wrote
about "Re: Move old messages (was:Re: Inte":

> > This would mean to add another functionality to filters (date check -
> > costs processing time). It would be much easier to just add "move to"
> > as an option what to do with old messages (in additon to delete), as
> > suggested by Allie.
> 
> > I would prefer that, as I see it as "archiving", not "filtering". The
> > message is old, you want to delete it or archive it.
> 
> Why would you REQUEST something that limiting?  If they offered
> filtering by date as well, you can achieve everything you and Allie
> have suggested _very_ easily.  I can see having the date feature in
> the filters as being very useful.

Januk, let me put my name under this message of yours;-) Pleeaase! Just 
wanted to write my own with something similar;-)

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  One man's Windows are another man's walls.

--- 
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fingerprints:
F222 4AEF EC9F 5FA6  7515 910A 2429 9CB1 (RSA)
A677 81C9 48CF 16D1 B589  9D33 E7D5 675F 2141 35A2 (DH/DSS) 
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Re: Signatures: (Was Re: envelope priority colours)

[Alex Sanyukovitch]

Hello cid,

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 5:09:19 PM, you wrote:

cin> What's the benefit?  Do you filter on those,or does the bat treat
cin> them special?
cin> I like to put my Best Regards before the --, but what I consider a
cin> "sig" after the --.
cin> The reason is, I consider my Signature, or closing, to be part of the
cin> letter. When I write a business letter, I may have a footer with our
cin> address or whatever else, but that's not where I put my closing. I
cin> treat email the same way, a sig (by email definations) is more of a
cin> "footer" and shouldn't include the closing.

cin> Comments?
Yeah.  The  Bat!  treats  text  after  "--  \n"  as signature and will
automatically  cut  it  off  when you reply to such a message.

Unfortunately,  "NTMail  Web  Mail  Client"  does  not  recognize this
symbols.

-- 
Best regards,
Alex Sanyukovitch
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
17:22 12.01.2000

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Re: International HTML preview coding system

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 12 Jan 00, at 11:09, tracer wrote
about "Re[2]: International  HTML preview ":

> Alexander> Care to write a formal bug report now?;-)
> 
> Alex, maybe they fix it if there are more paying customers from
> Russia(g)

Tracer, don't forget they speak Russian themselves, and therefore very 
probably face the same problem themselves on a regular basis;-)


-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  When someone you greatly admire and respect appears to be
  thinking deep thoughts, they are probably thinking about
  lunch.

--- 
PGP public keys on keyservers:
0xA2194BF9 (RSA);   0x214135A2 (DH/DSS)
fingerprints:
F222 4AEF EC9F 5FA6  7515 910A 2429 9CB1 (RSA)
A677 81C9 48CF 16D1 B589  9D33 E7D5 675F 2141 35A2 (DH/DSS) 
--- 


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