Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] The rescue attempt is far from over in the Thai cave

[Peter Jones]

Having been a caver in the Guads for 49 years, I can say that there have not 
been a lot of issues of flooding of our caves to the point where they might 
cause some serious problems.  That does not mean that the caves won’t flood, 
just that the number that are likely to are pretty limited.  Vanishing River 
Cave, which drains many square miles of canyons upstream from its location, 
would certainly be considered a no-entry cave during flooding season.  I’ve 
been in Carlsbad (town) several times when there have been real frog strangling 
rain and the normally empty river beds have been boiling with torrents of 
rushing water.  Had to even drive up to McCollum’s Ranch in a torrential 
downpour to pick up a friend who decided to hike the Guadalupe Ridge Trail from 
the Lookout Tower to Carlsbad Caverns National Park and got lost somewhere 
around Putman Cabin and had to double back that same night, arriving at the 
Lookout Tower Cabin around 3 AM, totally drenched to the bone.  He hiked down 
the following day and I met up with him just before McCollum’s Ranch to drive 
him back into town.  The flooding was unbelievable!!  Other caves that lie in 
the bottom of major drainages could certainly be a major problem for cavers who 
don’t pay attention to the weather.  A lot of the gyp caves and those like 
Spider Cave could be a real problem.  I also remember the day that I first 
dropped into Andy’s Cave with Tom Meador into virgin cave and came back to the 
entrance a couple of hours later to a waterfall pouring down the entrance drop 
and beginning to fill the canyon side of the 65’ deep drop.  It ended after the 
rain stopped, but it was certainly a wet climb out of there after that 
torrential event.  

Just a reminder that we should all be careful about rain (and snow in the 
winter) when we go caving.

Peter





> On Jul 3, 2018, at 5:45 PM, Geary Schindel  
> wrote:
> 
> Penny,
>  
> Yes, we’re trying to get our message out as most caves don’t respond to 
> rainfall like this one does. However, we have had our share of rain induced 
> tragedies and close calls in the US.  
>  
> I’ve spent a lot of time looking at major rain events and collected some very 
> interesting hydrograph data on the response of groundwater levels (and caves) 
> to flooding. Many a day, I’ve walked away from caving in low lying caves when 
> there is a chance of rain. When I worked for the NPS in the Mammoth Cave 
> area, we worked a cave where the first 3,000 feet of passage would flood to 
> the ceiling. The entrance was in the bottom of a large sinkhole that drained 
> an area of about 300 acres. We watched the weather very carefully. The issue 
> wasn’t when we were going in but when we came out the next morning. 
> Hopefully, the weather forecast was accurate and wasn’t a problem. However, 
> before crawling into the entrance series with the three low sumps, we would 
> get our lamps charged and headed directly out.
>  
> Water and flooding is a serious issue in karst and I’ve always thought that 
> drowning in a cave would not reflect well on the career of a karst 
> hydrologist.
>  
> Geary Schindel
> gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org
>  
> From: Penelope Boston [mailto:penelope.bos...@nmt.edu] 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 4:33 PM
> To: Geary Schindel 
> Cc: Peter Jones ; Lee Skinner ; 
> swrcavers@googlegroups com ; Texas Cavers 
> ; Sandia Grotto 
> 
> Subject: Re: [SWR CAVERS] The rescue attempt is far from over in the Thai cave
>  
> Dear all,
>  
> I also hope that this ongoing potential tragedy that we hope becomes a joyous 
> rescue can be used as a teaching moment. The 25 year old coach is to be 
> commended for taking his kids on field trips but his obvious lack of 
> understanding of how caves work in monsoon season is responsible for the 
> situation. I hope that the international cave community can use this 
> opportunity to explain the dangers of this particular instance in that larger 
> context. Not to make caves “scary” but to explain when caves are and are not 
> likely to be hazardous. 
>  
> Here’s hoping for the best,
> P
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jul 3, 2018, at 15:08, Geary Schindel  <mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org>> wrote:
> 
> Lee,
>  
> I also wanted to say that your feeds are the latest and most up to date on 
> the situation. Thank you for sharing them.
>  
> The NSS has had a number of calls from the media regarding this issue. I’ve 
> directed calls first to Anmar Mirza who is the National Coordinator for the 
> National Cave Rescue Commission. I’ve handled any overflow that Anmar 
> couldn’t get to. Anmar has been pulled in numerous directions from the media 
> and has done an excellent job.
>  
> Couple of points.
>  
> The media coverage has actua

Re: [Texascavers] [Sandia Grotto]: Re: [SWR CAVERS] The rescue attempt is far from over in the Thai cave

[Peter Jones]

It’s probably all going downstream, meaning their rescuers had to swim right 
through it.  Talk about a shitty job….


> On Jul 3, 2018, at 12:30 PM, Lee H. Skinner  wrote:
> 
> Thanks, Peter.
> 
> 
> I'm wondering how they're handling sanitation and human waste. Haven't seen 
> anything about that.
> 
> 
> Lee
> 
> 
> On 7/3/2018 10:15 AM, Peter Jones wrote:
>> Just wanted to say “thank you”, Lee, for keeping us all up to date on this 
>> rescue effort.  You’ve made it considerably easier to find the latest, most 
>> important details about the rescue.  It certainly is far from being over 
>> with, but at least there is support for the teens and those who risked their 
>> own lives in trying to find them under extremely dangerous circumstances.  
>> I’ve had my own share of rescues and injuries already and they all pale in 
>> comparison to the difficulty of this one.
>> 
>> Peter
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] The rescue attempt is far from over in the Thai cave

[Peter Jones]

Just wanted to say “thank you”, Lee, for keeping us all up to date on this 
rescue effort.  You’ve made it considerably easier to find the latest, most 
important details about the rescue.  It certainly is far from being over with, 
but at least there is support for the teens and those who risked their own 
lives in trying to find them under extremely dangerous circumstances.  I’ve had 
my own share of rescues and injuries already and they all pale in comparison to 
the difficulty of this one.

Peter




> On Jul 3, 2018, at 11:48 AM, Lee H. Skinner  wrote:
> 
> A video depicting great graphics about the rescue:   --Lee Skinner
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbyFGQD_ctU=9s 
> 
> 
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Thai cave rescue: Missing soccer team found alive

[Peter Jones]

GREAT NEWS!!!  It could still be a long time before they can actually get all 
the victims out of the cave if the waters remain as high as they are.  
Nonetheless, they must be extremely relieved.

Peter




> On Jul 2, 2018, at 12:22 PM, Lee H. Skinner  wrote:
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/02/asia/thai-cave-rescue-intl/index.html
> 
> 
> Lee Skinner
> 
> -- 
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR] CREE lights

[Peter Jones via Texascavers]

Not with headlamps, only as regular house incandescent/CFL lamp replacements.  
We like them because they are cheap ($4 at Home Depot for the 60 W version) and 
are dimmable to a certain extent.  They seem well made and with luck will last 
longer as lamps than I will as a human being.  With power output that you 
mention on the headlamps, we call them formation burners.  You could topple 
Goliath with one sweep of that beam light!!!

Peter





On Jul 30, 2014, at 1:20 PM, Bill Bentley wrote:

 Greetings,
 Anyone have any experiences with CREE headlights? Good? Bad? other wise...
 It says 3000 Lumens, It cause pain when I try to look in the beam... And 
 leaves a streak like you have looked at a welding light ... temporary 
 though...
 It is bright and I have tested it on two  2800 mAh 3.7 v batteries for 48 
 hours and there is still usable light although not as bright as it was...
 Bill
 
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Re: [SWR] Ringing stones

[Peter Jones]

Karen:  I'm surprised no one else has offered an explanation as of yet.  My 
guess, in part because I am potter, is that it has to do with the crystalline 
structure of the stones.  The reason I mention pottery is because many of my 
pots, when they come out of the very high temperature firing in my propane 
fired kiln (roughly 2350 F or cone 10 as the pyrometric cone number is called), 
have a wonderful and sustained ring to them when I rap my fingers on the rim of 
some pieces.  Some can sustain that ring for half a minute or so.  During the 
firing when the clay body is vitrifying and melting the various ingredients 
together into one another, a crystalline structure develops.  Clay is basically 
composed of silica, alumina and various oxides such as potassium, sodium, 
lithium, calcium and a small handful of others that lower the melting 
temperature of the silica and alumina components.  When they interact at the 
high temperature I fire to, that crystalline structure bonds all the 
ingredients into a very tight, hard material, extremely resistant to chemical 
attack.  In general, the higher the firing temperature, the longer the ringing 
sound will last.  As such, stoneware and porcelain pottery tends to have the 
better and longer lasting ringing sound than lower fired clay bodies such as 
earthenware.

Obviously not all stones (and I am assuming you are including stalactites and 
various other calcite formations in this category) are formed by heat reaction. 
 Plenty of them, such as calcite formations, occur through crystalline growth 
without the application of heat.  While those produced at higher temperatures 
may be stronger on a molecular level, that doesn't mean that they won't produce 
a ringing sound as a result of that crystalline growth.  Plenty of stals have a 
long and sustained ring to them.

There is also another factor involved in a prolonged ringing sound.  In the 
case of my pots, the most pronounced ringing comes from bowl shapes.  A platter 
may ring as well, but the longest and purest ringing tones come from bowl 
shapes.  Mugs don't ring at all, nor do plates, but the molecular structure of 
the clay is essentially identical in all of them.  The same could be said for 
stalactites.  Short, stubby stals don't do much more than just clunk when they 
are rapped by a finger.   Longer stals have a much greater resonance and it is 
likely due to the longer length vs girth of the formation.  Soda straws don't 
ring, but a long stalactite certainly is much more likely to sustain a ring 
than virtually any other formation.

This is certainly a very simplified version of why things ring and I hope that 
other more knowledgable people will respond as well.  This is based mostly on 
empirical evidence from my own experience as a potter and a caver.  Perhaps 
someone from Luray Caverns should answer this question as they are the ones 
with the stalacpipe organ which uses a keyboard driven hammer device attached 
to various tuned stalactites throughout the cave.  It's pretty impressive

Peter Jones



On May 25, 2014, at 9:57 AM, Karen Perry wrote:

 Does anyone know why some stones ring or have a musical quality?
 Thanks,
 Karen
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Re: [SWR] Ringing stones

[Peter Jones]

Damn, Pete, you just gave away the great secret of the aliens.  How could 
you?!?!?!?

Peter


On May 26, 2014, at 1:10 PM, Pete Lindsley wrote:

 Ken, have you considered that these magical stones could have come down from 
 the Roswell site?
 
  - Pete  ;-)
 
 On May 26, 2014, at 8:10 AM, Ken Harrington wrote:
 
 Peter,
  
 Interesting!  There is a pile of stones up in the area of Brantley Lake that 
 have a distinctive metallic ring to them when struck by something.  They are 
 all rather small (less than 12) long and are not like anything else in the 
 area.  I have been curious for some time as to what gave them the metallic 
 tone quality.  Your reference to high heat makes me think they may have been 
 brought in from another area where there may have been some volcanic 
 activity.  And then again it may be that they are just rocks and this e-mail 
 will confirm for all that I have rocks in my head.
  
 Ken
 
 
 Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the 
 rain. 
  
 From: pjca...@gwi.net
 Date: Sun, 25 May 2014 20:36:34 -0400
 To: txcavem...@yahoo.com
 CC: s...@caver.net; texascavers@texascavers.com
 Subject: Re: [SWR] Ringing stones
 
 Karen:  I'm surprised no one else has offered an explanation as of yet.  My 
 guess, in part because I am potter, is that it has to do with the crystalline 
 structure of the stones.  The reason I mention pottery is because many of 
 my pots, when they come out of the very high temperature firing in my propane 
 fired kiln (roughly 2350 F or cone 10 as the pyrometric cone number is 
 called), have a wonderful and sustained ring to them when I rap my fingers on 
 the rim of some pieces.  Some can sustain that ring for half a minute or so.  
 During the firing when the clay body is vitrifying and melting the various 
 ingredients together into one another, a crystalline structure develops.  
 Clay is basically composed of silica, alumina and various oxides such as 
 potassium, sodium, lithium, calcium and a small handful of others that lower 
 the melting temperature of the silica and alumina components.  When they 
 interact at the high temperature I fire to, that crystalline structure bonds 
 all the ingredients into a very tight, hard material, extremely resistant to 
 chemical attack.  In general, the higher the firing temperature, the longer 
 the ringing sound will last.  As such, stoneware and porcelain pottery tends 
 to have the better and longer lasting ringing sound than lower fired clay 
 bodies such as earthenware.
 
 Obviously not all stones (and I am assuming you are including stalactites and 
 various other calcite formations in this category) are formed by heat 
 reaction.  Plenty of them, such as calcite formations, occur through 
 crystalline growth without the application of heat.  While those produced at 
 higher temperatures may be stronger on a molecular level, that doesn't mean 
 that they won't produce a ringing sound as a result of that crystalline 
 growth.  Plenty of stals have a long and sustained ring to them.
 
 There is also another factor involved in a prolonged ringing sound.  In the 
 case of my pots, the most pronounced ringing comes from bowl shapes.  A 
 platter may ring as well, but the longest and purest ringing tones come from 
 bowl shapes.  Mugs don't ring at all, nor do plates, but the molecular 
 structure of the clay is essentially identical in all of them.  The same 
 could be said for stalactites.  Short, stubby stals don't do much more than 
 just clunk when they are rapped by a finger.   Longer stals have a much 
 greater resonance and it is likely due to the longer length vs girth of the 
 formation.  Soda straws don't ring, but a long stalactite certainly is much 
 more likely to sustain a ring than virtually any other formation.
 
 This is certainly a very simplified version of why things ring and I hope 
 that other more knowledgable people will respond as well.  This is based 
 mostly on empirical evidence from my own experience as a potter and a caver.  
 Perhaps someone from Luray Caverns should answer this question as they are 
 the ones with the stalacpipe organ which uses a keyboard driven hammer 
 device attached to various tuned stalactites throughout the cave.  It's 
 pretty impressive
 
 Peter Jones
 
 SITDCP Card 2010.tif
 
 On May 25, 2014, at 9:57 AM, Karen Perry wrote:
 
 Does anyone know why some stones ring or have a musical quality?
 Thanks,
 Karen
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Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas

[Peter Jones]

 Humans have carried fungal spores across the entire planet and probably into 
 space, so we should also take some responsibility for this catastrophe.
 
 Humans have been responsible for a number of serious threats to wildlife. 
 Sometimes inadvertent, and other times purposeful, but I think it’s too early 
 yet to accept responsibility for this one. Humans have taken action, whether 
 or not we’re responsible. I certainly hope we haven’t already spread WNS 
 across the entire universe. 
 
 Derek Bristol


Are there now bats in the space station??  Do they hang head up?  If they fly 
around every time the sun goes down, that means they go through 15.76 
sleep/awake cycles per day.  That must mean there are also a lot of moths on 
the space station.  Are there astronaut cavers as well?  I thought everything 
they wore in space was hyper-decontaminated before they set foot in the 
station.  Do the bats crap into special vacuum containers? 

All these questions must be researched and answered!!

Peter

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Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas

[Peter Jones]

.
 
 Regards,
 Debbie
  
 
 /|\ (^._.^) /|\
 
 Debbie C. Buecher, M.S.
 Wildlife Biologist/Project Manager
 Buecher Biological Consulting
 7050 E. Katchina Court
 Tucson, AZ 84715
 phone: (520) 722-1287
 cell: (520) 822-4726
 
 
 From: Peter Jones pjca...@gwi.net
 To: Jim Evatt nmca...@comcast.net
 Cc: List, NM s...@caver.net, DAVIS, DONALD dgda...@nyx.net
 Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2014 7:49:47 AM
 Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
 
 WNS itself does not kill the bats.  It is in fact a minor irritant, much like 
 a nasal cold, that wakes the bats up in mid-winter during their hibernation 
 and uses up their reserve fats.  They fly out of the cave looking for a 
 mid-winter snack and can't find an open diner anywhere to eat at.  As such, 
 they essentially die from starvation or freezing to death.  I don't know of 
 anyone who died from a cold, as we know it.  Sooner or later, we all get over 
 colds.  It's a question of whether or not they can survive the remainder of 
 the winter without more nourishment.
 
 Peter
 
 
 On May 8, 2014, at 10:41 AM, Jim Evatt wrote:
 
 Recent biostudies indicate that the bats in those areas most heavily 
 devastated are somehow enhancing their own imunosystems against WNS, and are 
 surviving despite the spore presence. Seems likely since WNS, or at least a 
 nearly twin sister of it, has been present in Europe for almost 100 years, 
 and while bats have died, not one case of a species going extinnct has been 
 reported.
  
 E ^v^
  
  
 Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas
  
 Hi, Donald:  Having just spent two weeks photographing throughout Ft Stanton 
 and talking at length with Mike Bilbo about WNS and decon, I doubt seriously 
 that BLM is going to reverse its decision about cave closures.  Despite the 
 false reading of the Oklahoma bat, WNS has been steadily marching its way 
 across the country and is now as close as Arkansas.  Bilbo pointed out to me 
 that there are a series of caves in northern Texas whose conditions are ideal 
 for WNS to spread through and Ft Stanton is included in that list of caves.  
 Although the spread of WNS through the human vector is all but debunked at 
 this point, it does continue to spread through the bats themselves and the 
 caving community can't do a thing to stop that spread.  Unfortunately, the 
 human vector of organizations like the Center for BioDiversity is a bigger 
 threat to the closure of caves than WNS ever considered itself to be….  In 
 some ways, we are lucky to be able to go into caves AT ALL these days due to 
 the scourge of WNS and the hysteria associated with it.  It is a very sad 
 situation for the bats and one that we are unable to control as humans.  As 
 much a pain in the ass as doing the full scale decon is, it's as much a sign 
 that we care as cavers to help slow down the spread of the disease, whether 
 it is effective or not. 
  
 Peter
  
  
  
  
  
 On May 7, 2014, at 11:25 AM, DONALD G. DAVIS wrote:
 
 William Tucker william.tuc...@att.net wrote:
 
 I haven't seen anyone discussing this; possibly because the news has 
 not gotten around, yet. I just received this press announcement.
 
 
   May 6, 2014
 
   A service of the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife 
 Conservation
 
   OKLAHOMA REMOVED FROM LIST OF SUSPECTED BAT FUNGUS 
 AREAS
 
 So, as many of us have suspected all along, the Oklahoma WNS 
 report that was used as the trigger to close Ft. Stanton and NM's other 
 BLM caves was a false positive.  Several years ago, when Marikay Ramsey 
 (major architect of that closure) was at the SW Technical Regional, I 
 asked her if it could be.  She replied that it was not false.  I suppose 
 that it's too much to hope that this belated confirmation of its falsity 
 will trigger reopening the caves.
 --Donald
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Re: [SWR] My late night thoughts during insomnia

[Peter Jones]

I call them heligmites when their initial growth starts on the floor.  When 
they start on the wall, they should be called wallawallamites, don't you 
think???  Besides, we all know that when a stalactite and stalagmite grow 
together, they're called Mighty Tights.  Come to think of it, should pure 
white stals (sticky uppies or hangy downies doesn't matter) just be called 
Titie Whities?

Peter




On Apr 13, 2014, at 11:34 AM, DONALD G. DAVIS wrote:

 Lee H. Skinner skin...@thuntek.net wrote:
 
 Why aren't there more helicmites?
 
   There are some references to heligmites in the literature; I 
 consider the term unnecessary, because helictites typically have little or 
 no response to gravity, and are the same structures and have the same 
 origin no matter what direction they are growing.
   --Donald
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Re: [SWR] True cavers

[Peter Jones]

Donald, I may have been with you on that trip in 1969.  That may also have been 
the trip when you made the major bypass discovery in Groaning (with me dragged 
along with you) in the ever so early days of its exploration.  It's always a 
pleasure to read about your caving travails when it is presented in your 
classic Donald response of a purely factual nature.  I wish I had had your 
naturally springy cartilage when I crawled out of Lech for two miles with a 
broken ankle….

Peter




 
   I must be a pretty true caver.  For much of my caving career, I've 
 never worn kneepads.  I have natural springy cartilage pads in my knees, 
 and routine crawling just doesn't hurt much.  But there have been 
 exceptions.  When we discovered a certain upper-level part of Fixin' to 
 Die Cave, Colorado, it was necessary to chimney up to it using pressure 
 opposition against crusts of sharp little calcite spar crystals.  That 
 hurt, and for my next visits, I put inner-tube rubber inside my coveralls.  
 Then there came the crystal-coated knobs of the Crawl from Hell in Snowy 
 River.  It still didn't hurt my knees internally, but I found that if I 
 didn't use external pads, my coverall cloth and then my skin would simply 
 wear through from the abrasion.  Otherwise, I still don't often use them.
 
   --Donald
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Re: [SWR] Bringing caving to the masses

[Peter Jones]

I can answer a lot about this as I know Luke Farrer personally and worked with 
him earlier this year.  Almost exactly a year ago, I got a phone call from him 
as he had been given my name as someone doing cave photography by a mutual 
acquaintance.  I was going to be at Emily Davis's house (Schoharie, NY) in 
early December for the weekend and we agreed to meet there and go over to Howe 
Caverns, a commercial cave, to view it in terms of his idea to do LiDAR mapping 
with a photo overlay.  I had had some experience with this a couple of years 
ago at Carlsbad Caverns NP.  We agreed to meet back up again for a two day 
shoot in Howe in early January which we accomplished.  The technical issues of 
overlaying the photo images onto the laser generated point cloud were 
difficult, but 
he has achieved that remarkably well.

He invested a considerable amount of personal funds into buying his own laser 
mapping device since our shoot.  At this time, his biggest project is mapping 
Claustral Canyon in Australia, for which he decided to raise funds through 
Kickstarter, an online website that you can make pledge donations to if the 
financial goals are reached (they were).  Some of you may have received a 
letter from me about that.  In any case, what he's doing is pretty incredible.  
Caver Quest may we be better and cheaper, but Luke's success at what he's doing 
is pretty spectacular as well.

If he pursues this project in caves, they are far more likely to be done in 
commercialized caves than in any wild caves.  When working with him, I 
thoroughly vetted his intentions and views on conservation, particularly on 
cave conservation.  His head is certainly in the right place for what he's 
doing, so will be no threat to cave conservation.  He's a very nice guy and 
will do the right thing.  I don't know if I will work with him in future cave 
endeavors, but if I do, I will certainly keep a hawk's eye on the intent and 
finished product to be sure there are no potentially bad outcomes.

Now as to calling himself The Mad Spelunker, I have no idea how or why he chose 
that.  He knows we're cavers, not spelunkers, so I think it may just be a 
tongue in cheek name for himself as he is not a caver at this time.  Along that 
line, Mike and Emily had their annual Mexican/Chocolate party while Luke and I 
were there and he met with a lot of the local cavers, some with national 
recognition such as Art and Peg Palmer, Bob Addis, Mike and Emily, etc.  

I must say, I am amazed that he reached the goal of funding his project within 
the time frame.  I know cavers are notoriously cheap, but a few of them 
actually kicked in a few bucks towards the project.  

Hope that answers some questions that people may have.

Peter Jones







On Nov 17, 2013, at 12:58 PM, Steve Peerman wrote:

 Caver Quest is still better (and cheaper)!
 
 On Nov 17, 2013, at 10:39 AM, Lee H. Skinner wrote:
 
 I saw this link in the Texas Cavers mailing list by David Locklear:
 
 http://tinyurl.com/o552nnz
 
 I wonder what hardware and software he uses...but searching online, I found 
 these 4 articles:
 
 http://tinyurl.com/pqcxf2k
 
 http://tinyurl.com/p366b4d
 
 http://tinyurl.com/oav9ges
 
 http://tinyurl.com/oj7j9z4
 
 Lee Skinner
 
 Steve Peerman
 Project Director, Fort Stanton Cave Study Project
 fscsp.direc...@gmail.com
 
 
 
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Re: [SWR] Dilation theory.

[Peter Jones]

Carl, I think you're on to something here.  I agree, it would be great to have 
The Donald's theory published again.  Donald???….

Peter





On Sep 7, 2013, at 3:21 PM, Carl Pagano wrote:

 Does anyone still have a copy of Donald Davis's cave dilation theory? If so, 
 it would be worth publishing again given the increased number of sinkholes. 
 The world is beginning to collapse on itself because there aren't enough 
 people who believe that it is hollow anymore. It used to be that people 
 thought the world was hollow. Cavers promoted this theory, but with the 
 closure of so many caves due to ignorance, the world doesn't know just how 
 many hollow places there are/were, and so they are de-dilating. 
  Carl….
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Re: [SWR] Fort Stanton

[Peter Jones]

Wow, how cool is that that Andy was on the first survey in Ft Stanton so many 
years ago.  Congrats to everyone for a well-deserved award.  Anyone going to 
venture back east for Convention next week?  Hope so as I'll be there on 
Vendors Row.  Stop by, say hello, have a beer, buy some pots.  Helps me get out 
to NM to go caving in the best caves in the world with the best cavers in the 
world!!

Peter









On Jul 29, 2013, at 4:44 PM, John Corcoran wrote:

 Thanks Andy,
  
 I remember that you were on the very first survey team for FSCSP when we 
 started at the entrance and began the Main Corridor survey (see attached 
 survey book cover)!  So you helped start things some 46 years ago…
  
 Regards,
  
 John
  
 From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of Andy 
 Komensky
 Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 7:43 AM
 To: s...@caver.net
 Subject: [SWR] Fort Stanton
  
 Congrats to all of you who received the award.
 Proud to say that at one time or another I had the opportunity to cave with 
 some of you and sorry that I never had the chance to meet the rest of you.,
 Cave h,
 Andy
 MainC 19670907 bk 1 of 1 
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Re: [SWR] Fort Stanton

[Peter Jones]

Wow, how cool is that that Andy was on the first survey in Ft Stanton so many 
years ago.  Congrats to everyone for a well-deserved award.  Anyone going to 
venture back east for Convention next week?  Hope so as I'll be there on 
Vendors Row.  Stop by, say hello, have a beer, buy some pots.  Helps me get out 
to NM to go caving in the best caves in the world with the best cavers in the 
world!!

Peter









On Jul 29, 2013, at 4:44 PM, John Corcoran wrote:

 Thanks Andy,
  
 I remember that you were on the very first survey team for FSCSP when we 
 started at the entrance and began the Main Corridor survey (see attached 
 survey book cover)!  So you helped start things some 46 years ago…
  
 Regards,
  
 John
  
 From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of Andy 
 Komensky
 Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 7:43 AM
 To: s...@caver.net
 Subject: [SWR] Fort Stanton
  
 Congrats to all of you who received the award.
 Proud to say that at one time or another I had the opportunity to cave with 
 some of you and sorry that I never had the chance to meet the rest of you.,
 Cave h,
 Andy
 MainC 19670907 bk 1 of 1 
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Re: [SWR] Fort Stanton

[Peter Jones]

Wow, how cool is that that Andy was on the first survey in Ft Stanton so many 
years ago.  Congrats to everyone for a well-deserved award.  Anyone going to 
venture back east for Convention next week?  Hope so as I'll be there on 
Vendors Row.  Stop by, say hello, have a beer, buy some pots.  Helps me get out 
to NM to go caving in the best caves in the world with the best cavers in the 
world!!

Peter









On Jul 29, 2013, at 4:44 PM, John Corcoran wrote:

 Thanks Andy,
  
 I remember that you were on the very first survey team for FSCSP when we 
 started at the entrance and began the Main Corridor survey (see attached 
 survey book cover)!  So you helped start things some 46 years ago…
  
 Regards,
  
 John
  
 From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of Andy 
 Komensky
 Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 7:43 AM
 To: s...@caver.net
 Subject: [SWR] Fort Stanton
  
 Congrats to all of you who received the award.
 Proud to say that at one time or another I had the opportunity to cave with 
 some of you and sorry that I never had the chance to meet the rest of you.,
 Cave h,
 Andy
 MainC 19670907 bk 1 of 1 
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Re: [SWR] Local News Story

[Peter Jones]

As I said to Peter Youngbaer, who commented that Hazel had been at the gates of 
hell in the past, perhaps she's the Gatekeeper……

Peter




On May 9, 2013, at 11:07 AM, DONALD G. DAVIS wrote:

 I asked the reporter about it and she responded that she may have been 
 confused with an aquifer that Hazel was also talking about off camera. I 
 gave the reporter the chance to say it was like 20,000 leagues under the 
 sea where it was referring to distance and not depth; but, she didn't take 
 it.
 
 William
 
   Maybe she was told that the top of the water table was 1,500 feet 
 deep in Lech., and remembered that as 15,000.
   --Donald
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Re: [SWR] Local News Story

[Peter Jones]

Yeah, I knew Hazel was a hardcore Lech caver, but 15 thousand feet deep is 
outstanding.  I'd say she's on the doorstep to Hell at that depth…..

Peter



On May 9, 2013, at 7:27 AM, Bill Bentley wrote:

 15,000' feet down in the cave? WOW!
  
 http://www.newswest9.com/category/163304/video-landing-page?clipId=topVideoCatNo=121765topVideoCatNoB=83259topVideoCatNoC=182033topVideoCatNoD=169582topVideoCatNoE=169586clipId=8859078autostart=true
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Re: [SWR] Local News Story

[Peter Jones]

As I said to Peter Youngbaer, who commented that Hazel had been at the gates of 
hell in the past, perhaps she's the Gatekeeper……

Peter




On May 9, 2013, at 11:07 AM, DONALD G. DAVIS wrote:

 I asked the reporter about it and she responded that she may have been 
 confused with an aquifer that Hazel was also talking about off camera. I 
 gave the reporter the chance to say it was like 20,000 leagues under the 
 sea where it was referring to distance and not depth; but, she didn't take 
 it.
 
 William
 
   Maybe she was told that the top of the water table was 1,500 feet 
 deep in Lech., and remembered that as 15,000.
   --Donald
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Re: [SWR] Local News Story

[Peter Jones]

Yeah, I knew Hazel was a hardcore Lech caver, but 15 thousand feet deep is 
outstanding.  I'd say she's on the doorstep to Hell at that depth…..

Peter



On May 9, 2013, at 7:27 AM, Bill Bentley wrote:

 15,000' feet down in the cave? WOW!
  
 http://www.newswest9.com/category/163304/video-landing-page?clipId=topVideoCatNo=121765topVideoCatNoB=83259topVideoCatNoC=182033topVideoCatNoD=169582topVideoCatNoE=169586clipId=8859078autostart=true
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Re: [SWR] Local News Story

[Peter Jones]

As I said to Peter Youngbaer, who commented that Hazel had been at the gates of 
hell in the past, perhaps she's the Gatekeeper……

Peter




On May 9, 2013, at 11:07 AM, DONALD G. DAVIS wrote:

 I asked the reporter about it and she responded that she may have been 
 confused with an aquifer that Hazel was also talking about off camera. I 
 gave the reporter the chance to say it was like 20,000 leagues under the 
 sea where it was referring to distance and not depth; but, she didn't take 
 it.
 
 William
 
   Maybe she was told that the top of the water table was 1,500 feet 
 deep in Lech., and remembered that as 15,000.
   --Donald
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Re: [SWR] No Place On Earth movie May 3 Austin, May 10 Dallas

[Peter Jones]

Yes, I suppose the Starbuckers could survive on Eight O'Clock or Chock Full o' 
Nuts for a short time, but I imagine it would be tough for them.  

I'm trying to get Chris to present the film at a theater in Rockland, Maine 
which supports many of those types of films and other venues.  I can just about 
guarantee that it would be a packed house.  The Warner Herzog movie on cave 
paintings was filled to capacity and I didn't think it was all that great a 
film, at least in terms of cinematography.  

Peter




On May 4, 2013, at 6:44 PM, Louise Power wrote:

 You might be surprised. Some of us old Starbucks slurpers are tougher than 
 you think. We do what has to be done to survive.
 
 From: casto...@gmail.com
 Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 15:34:08 -0600
 To: lstarr...@gmail.com
 CC: s...@caver.net; lmcn...@austin.rr.com
 Subject: Re: [SWR] No Place On Earth movie May 3 Austin, May 10 Dallas
 
 The Starbucks crowd and similar probably wouldn't make it. But, folks who 
 demonstrate personal responsibility and don't expect everything to be done 
 for them would be resourceful and resilient. There's survivors and victims, 
 and adversity separates them quickly. And, some who might think they couldn't 
 make it would find out otherwise when push came to shove. Recent example: 
 folks who never conceived of being in a situation like the Boston bombing did 
 some pretty amazing and instinctual actions when the demand was placed on 
 them; and some who were uninjured simply were useless.
 
 
 On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Linda Starr lstarr...@gmail.com wrote:
  We went to see No Place on Earth movie last night in Santa Fe.The 
 movie makes you think, Could I do this with my family if I had to.  My 
 answer is NO!  Families and people today would not be able to survive 1-1/2 
 years in a cave.
 
 
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Re: [SWR] No Place On Earth movie May 3 Austin, May 10 Dallas

[Peter Jones]

Yes, I suppose the Starbuckers could survive on Eight O'Clock or Chock Full o' 
Nuts for a short time, but I imagine it would be tough for them.  

I'm trying to get Chris to present the film at a theater in Rockland, Maine 
which supports many of those types of films and other venues.  I can just about 
guarantee that it would be a packed house.  The Warner Herzog movie on cave 
paintings was filled to capacity and I didn't think it was all that great a 
film, at least in terms of cinematography.  

Peter




On May 4, 2013, at 6:44 PM, Louise Power wrote:

 You might be surprised. Some of us old Starbucks slurpers are tougher than 
 you think. We do what has to be done to survive.
 
 From: casto...@gmail.com
 Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 15:34:08 -0600
 To: lstarr...@gmail.com
 CC: s...@caver.net; lmcn...@austin.rr.com
 Subject: Re: [SWR] No Place On Earth movie May 3 Austin, May 10 Dallas
 
 The Starbucks crowd and similar probably wouldn't make it. But, folks who 
 demonstrate personal responsibility and don't expect everything to be done 
 for them would be resourceful and resilient. There's survivors and victims, 
 and adversity separates them quickly. And, some who might think they couldn't 
 make it would find out otherwise when push came to shove. Recent example: 
 folks who never conceived of being in a situation like the Boston bombing did 
 some pretty amazing and instinctual actions when the demand was placed on 
 them; and some who were uninjured simply were useless.
 
 
 On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 1:47 PM, Linda Starr lstarr...@gmail.com wrote:
  We went to see No Place on Earth movie last night in Santa Fe.The 
 movie makes you think, Could I do this with my family if I had to.  My 
 answer is NO!  Families and people today would not be able to survive 1-1/2 
 years in a cave.
 
 
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Re: [SWR] Remembrance

[Peter Jones]

A few days late in response because we just got out of four days in Chaco 
Canyon where there is virtually no connection to the outside world.  I do 
indeed remember Tom very well and wish him a Happy B'day in absentia.  Hope to 
see his surviving family members in Eldorado later this month.

Peter






On Apr 3, 2013, at 5:06 PM, Jim Evatt wrote:

 Those of you who remember Tom Meador, he would have been 70 today.
 
 Those of you who did not know him, you missed a special friend.
 
 Jim Evatt
 
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Re: [SWR] Remembrance

[Peter Jones]

A few days late in response because we just got out of four days in Chaco 
Canyon where there is virtually no connection to the outside world.  I do 
indeed remember Tom very well and wish him a Happy B'day in absentia.  Hope to 
see his surviving family members in Eldorado later this month.

Peter






On Apr 3, 2013, at 5:06 PM, Jim Evatt wrote:

 Those of you who remember Tom Meador, he would have been 70 today.
 
 Those of you who did not know him, you missed a special friend.
 
 Jim Evatt
 
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Re: [SWR] Remembrance

[Peter Jones]

A few days late in response because we just got out of four days in Chaco 
Canyon where there is virtually no connection to the outside world.  I do 
indeed remember Tom very well and wish him a Happy B'day in absentia.  Hope to 
see his surviving family members in Eldorado later this month.

Peter






On Apr 3, 2013, at 5:06 PM, Jim Evatt wrote:

 Those of you who remember Tom Meador, he would have been 70 today.
 
 Those of you who did not know him, you missed a special friend.
 
 Jim Evatt
 
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Re: [SWR] [Texascavers] Re: Cave articles in Spiegel (German weekly)

[Peter Jones]

John:  Peter Jones here.  I am not sure what size of desiccant canister you are 
looking for, but there is one I use to keep my camera dry from moisture on long 
caving trips.  Works really well for me, as long as the desiccant is recharged 
and sealed in a ziplock plastic baggie with my camera when it is not in use.  
These are small rectangular aluminum canisters filled with a silica gel 
material that can be recharged by heating the whole unit to 300 degrees in an 
oven to dry it out.  When it has soaked up a lot of moisture, it turns pink, 
when recharged it turns dark blue.  To find it, go to 
http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/Reusable_desiccant_canister/EW-07193-91  for 
info.  They offer other desiccant materials as well, but I am only familiar 
with this one and very pleased with it.

Hope that helps.

Peter



On Aug 24, 2012, at 7:48 PM, John Corcoran wrote:

 Derek,
  
 Do you have suggestions for desiccant suppliers and water resistant 
 containers or plastic bags?
  
 Regards,
  
 John
  
 From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of 
 Bristol, Derek
 Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 4:12 PM
 To: Gary Moss; Mark Minton; Texascavers@texascavers.com; s...@caver.net
 Subject: Re: [SWR] [Texascavers] Re: Cave articles in Spiegel (German weekly)
  
 Don’t forget the cave camp sleeping bag desiccant market.
  
 From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of Gary 
 Moss
 Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 1:55 PM
 To: Mark Minton; Texascavers@texascavers.com; s...@caver.net
 Subject: Re: [SWR] [Texascavers] Re: Cave articles in Spiegel (German weekly)
  
 Hi Mark:
 
 I think Carbide is still used in the production of steel.  Some friends of 
 mine once to a steel plant thinking they could get the empty 100 lb cans.  
 They just through the carbide in the mix can and all.  It appears the steel 
 can did not hurt the steel  :)
 
 Gary Moss
 
 
 At 10:47 PM 8/23/2012, Mark Minton wrote:
 
 I agree.  Calcium carbide is mainly used for production of acetylene 
 for welding where it is not available in tanks.  In the West that is 
 increasingly rare.  My guess is that carbide will soon cease to be available 
 at reasonable cost.  (It is already hazardous cargo.)
 
 Mark
 
 At 10:07 PM 8/23/2012, DONALD G. DAVIS wrote:
 
 Mark,
 You'd be the best to answer this, wasn't calcium carbide a byproduct of
 something else, and used to produce commercial acetylene gas quantities? What
 is the current practice to get the gas?
 john Lyles
 
   No, calcium carbide was never a byproduct.  It was, from the late
 1800s, and still is, produced by reacting calcium carbonate and coke in
 electric furnaces.  Its major use is still for making acetylene, but where
 petroleum and natural gas are plentiful, most acetylene today is derived
 from those instead.  The Wikipedia article calcium carbide explains it.
 
 --Donald
 
 Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
 Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 
 
 -
 Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
 For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
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Re: [SWR] [Texascavers] Re: Cave articles in Spiegel (German weekly)

[Peter Jones]

John:  Peter Jones here.  I am not sure what size of desiccant canister you are 
looking for, but there is one I use to keep my camera dry from moisture on long 
caving trips.  Works really well for me, as long as the desiccant is recharged 
and sealed in a ziplock plastic baggie with my camera when it is not in use.  
These are small rectangular aluminum canisters filled with a silica gel 
material that can be recharged by heating the whole unit to 300 degrees in an 
oven to dry it out.  When it has soaked up a lot of moisture, it turns pink, 
when recharged it turns dark blue.  To find it, go to 
http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/Reusable_desiccant_canister/EW-07193-91  for 
info.  They offer other desiccant materials as well, but I am only familiar 
with this one and very pleased with it.

Hope that helps.

Peter



On Aug 24, 2012, at 7:48 PM, John Corcoran wrote:

 Derek,
  
 Do you have suggestions for desiccant suppliers and water resistant 
 containers or plastic bags?
  
 Regards,
  
 John
  
 From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of 
 Bristol, Derek
 Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 4:12 PM
 To: Gary Moss; Mark Minton; Texascavers@texascavers.com; s...@caver.net
 Subject: Re: [SWR] [Texascavers] Re: Cave articles in Spiegel (German weekly)
  
 Don’t forget the cave camp sleeping bag desiccant market.
  
 From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of Gary 
 Moss
 Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 1:55 PM
 To: Mark Minton; Texascavers@texascavers.com; s...@caver.net
 Subject: Re: [SWR] [Texascavers] Re: Cave articles in Spiegel (German weekly)
  
 Hi Mark:
 
 I think Carbide is still used in the production of steel.  Some friends of 
 mine once to a steel plant thinking they could get the empty 100 lb cans.  
 They just through the carbide in the mix can and all.  It appears the steel 
 can did not hurt the steel  :)
 
 Gary Moss
 
 
 At 10:47 PM 8/23/2012, Mark Minton wrote:
 
 I agree.  Calcium carbide is mainly used for production of acetylene 
 for welding where it is not available in tanks.  In the West that is 
 increasingly rare.  My guess is that carbide will soon cease to be available 
 at reasonable cost.  (It is already hazardous cargo.)
 
 Mark
 
 At 10:07 PM 8/23/2012, DONALD G. DAVIS wrote:
 
 Mark,
 You'd be the best to answer this, wasn't calcium carbide a byproduct of
 something else, and used to produce commercial acetylene gas quantities? What
 is the current practice to get the gas?
 john Lyles
 
   No, calcium carbide was never a byproduct.  It was, from the late
 1800s, and still is, produced by reacting calcium carbonate and coke in
 electric furnaces.  Its major use is still for making acetylene, but where
 petroleum and natural gas are plentiful, most acetylene today is derived
 from those instead.  The Wikipedia article calcium carbide explains it.
 
 --Donald
 
 Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
 Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 
 
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Re: [SWR] [Texascavers] Aftermath of the NSS Convention - one experience

[Peter Jones]

I just want to add to George's statement that John Woods from California won 
the Arts and Letters Award this year for his work in photography and vertical 
training.  Like many others, no one could hear the presentation.  John most 
certainly deserved his moment, just as all the other recipients did.  Sad for 
everyone who didn't get their acknowledgment.  By the time most of them did, 
half the NSS was outside trying to hold onto their belongings and rescue other 
peoples' possessions.  

Once again, a typical NSS Convention with all the usual suspects….

Peter




On Jul 1, 2012, at 11:08 PM, George Veni wrote:

 I've just flown back to El Paso from DC and am driving home to Carlsbad. I 
 was luckier than most, having camped in my rental car which survived 
 undamaged, dry, and with a full tank of gas that let me enjoy Saturday's 
 hydrology field trip and reach DC without any problem. There I stayed with my 
 old friend Larry Cohen whose neighborhood was an island of electrical power.
 
 While we're incredibly lucky no caver was hurt in the storm (to the best of 
 my knowledge), the timing was terrible for the many people who have given so 
 much to caving and missed their moment of recognition. Dwight accidentally 
 proves my point in mentioning Art Palmer's award. Art didn't get an award. He 
 was yelling into the dark banquet hall, describing the accomplishments of the 
 NSS' newest Honorary Member Dr. Pavel Bosak of the Czech Republic.
 
 Look in the NSS News in a couple of months to see all of the award 
 recipients' names, and make sure to give them the pat on the back they missed 
 but greatly deserve.
 
 George 
 
 
 
 
 George Veni, Ph.D.
 Executive Director
 National Cave  Karst Research Institute
 400-1 Cascades Avenue
 Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
 Office: 575-887-5517
 Mobile: 210-863-5919
 Fax: 575-887-5523
 gv...@nckri.org
 www.nckri.org 
 
 Sent by mobile phone.
 
 
 
  Original message 
 Subject: [Texascavers] Aftermath of the NSS Convention - one experience 
 From: dirt...@comcast.net 
 To: Cave NM s...@caver.net,Cave Texas Texascavers@texascavers.com,TAG Net 
 tag-...@hiddenworld.net 
 CC: 
 
 
  
 Sunday Evening
  
 We are still in the Great Eastern Power Outage.  For those NOT at the 
 convention in Lewisburg, The power from Ohio through West Virginia, Virginia, 
 DC, Rhode Island and parts of New Jersey and North Carolina, and, in 
 Lewisburg, went out just as the awards ceremonies at the NSS Banquet started. 
 The weather was hot but otherwise wonderful all week, but the NSS convention 
 weather fortune continued on Friday night!
  
 The power went out and killed the projectors and sound after most had 
 finished eating, and speakers bravely shoutedawards the names of the new 
 Fellows. Then, when Art Palmer rose to accept his well-deserved award, the 
 Great Gust arrived, clearing the campground (literally) and blowing some 
 tents over 1/4 mile - we later saw one flattened tent pinned against the 
 fence around the Fair Grounds on the East side of the one-way road to the 
 south (just south of the limbs of a huge fallen tree which blocked the 
 highway).  After the wind threatened the integrity of the doors to the 
 banquet hall, the ceremonies deteriorated further.
  
 All roads from the normal exit from our part of the Fair Grounds were 
 blocked by numerous fallen trees.  By some devious route-finding (and an 
 unexpectedly unlocked gate), we found our way across the Fair Grounds and out 
 to the one-way road on the other side, heading north.  A bit more devious 
 route finding across much lesser streets got us successfully to our hotel for 
 a powerless night.  Hotel operators wringing their hands were amazed by our 
 cheery room, illuminated by several 200-lumen headlamps (operating on low and 
 partial power).
  
 (Where did you get that??!!, they asked.)
  
 (We are cavers, the reply.)
  
 The next day was also beautiful (Saturday) but the extent of the outage in 
 West Virginia became apparent - it was NOT just Lewisburg.  Refrigeration was 
 out everywhere, as was all power for any services, including pumping gas.  It 
 had been our plan to re-visit haunts from 56 years ago around Cass, Senica 
 Rocks, Germany Valley, and Franklin.  We had a full tank so headed north.  
 All services were out.  We found one or two rural gas stations where the 
 owner had a generator, and the lines were 50 plus cars from each direction 
 and rapidly selling out of whatever gas they had in their tanks.  The 
 batteries in the cell towers ran out and so did that service. Without power, 
 of course there was no internet.  We found lunch in Elkins by going to the 
 hospital cafeteria. (Bright idea, Mary!)
  
 Our thought was that we would not have any problems once we got east into 
 Virginia.  Bad thought.  Most of Harrisonburg and Staunton were either 
 without power or running on half-power(120 V, not 240v).  What few hotels 
 that had power were swamped with 

Re: [SWR] [Texascavers] Aftermath of the NSS Convention - one experience

[Peter Jones]

I just want to add to George's statement that John Woods from California won 
the Arts and Letters Award this year for his work in photography and vertical 
training.  Like many others, no one could hear the presentation.  John most 
certainly deserved his moment, just as all the other recipients did.  Sad for 
everyone who didn't get their acknowledgment.  By the time most of them did, 
half the NSS was outside trying to hold onto their belongings and rescue other 
peoples' possessions.  

Once again, a typical NSS Convention with all the usual suspects….

Peter




On Jul 1, 2012, at 11:08 PM, George Veni wrote:

 I've just flown back to El Paso from DC and am driving home to Carlsbad. I 
 was luckier than most, having camped in my rental car which survived 
 undamaged, dry, and with a full tank of gas that let me enjoy Saturday's 
 hydrology field trip and reach DC without any problem. There I stayed with my 
 old friend Larry Cohen whose neighborhood was an island of electrical power.
 
 While we're incredibly lucky no caver was hurt in the storm (to the best of 
 my knowledge), the timing was terrible for the many people who have given so 
 much to caving and missed their moment of recognition. Dwight accidentally 
 proves my point in mentioning Art Palmer's award. Art didn't get an award. He 
 was yelling into the dark banquet hall, describing the accomplishments of the 
 NSS' newest Honorary Member Dr. Pavel Bosak of the Czech Republic.
 
 Look in the NSS News in a couple of months to see all of the award 
 recipients' names, and make sure to give them the pat on the back they missed 
 but greatly deserve.
 
 George 
 
 
 
 
 George Veni, Ph.D.
 Executive Director
 National Cave  Karst Research Institute
 400-1 Cascades Avenue
 Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
 Office: 575-887-5517
 Mobile: 210-863-5919
 Fax: 575-887-5523
 gv...@nckri.org
 www.nckri.org 
 
 Sent by mobile phone.
 
 
 
  Original message 
 Subject: [Texascavers] Aftermath of the NSS Convention - one experience 
 From: dirt...@comcast.net 
 To: Cave NM s...@caver.net,Cave Texas Texascavers@texascavers.com,TAG Net 
 tag-...@hiddenworld.net 
 CC: 
 
 
  
 Sunday Evening
  
 We are still in the Great Eastern Power Outage.  For those NOT at the 
 convention in Lewisburg, The power from Ohio through West Virginia, Virginia, 
 DC, Rhode Island and parts of New Jersey and North Carolina, and, in 
 Lewisburg, went out just as the awards ceremonies at the NSS Banquet started. 
 The weather was hot but otherwise wonderful all week, but the NSS convention 
 weather fortune continued on Friday night!
  
 The power went out and killed the projectors and sound after most had 
 finished eating, and speakers bravely shoutedawards the names of the new 
 Fellows. Then, when Art Palmer rose to accept his well-deserved award, the 
 Great Gust arrived, clearing the campground (literally) and blowing some 
 tents over 1/4 mile - we later saw one flattened tent pinned against the 
 fence around the Fair Grounds on the East side of the one-way road to the 
 south (just south of the limbs of a huge fallen tree which blocked the 
 highway).  After the wind threatened the integrity of the doors to the 
 banquet hall, the ceremonies deteriorated further.
  
 All roads from the normal exit from our part of the Fair Grounds were 
 blocked by numerous fallen trees.  By some devious route-finding (and an 
 unexpectedly unlocked gate), we found our way across the Fair Grounds and out 
 to the one-way road on the other side, heading north.  A bit more devious 
 route finding across much lesser streets got us successfully to our hotel for 
 a powerless night.  Hotel operators wringing their hands were amazed by our 
 cheery room, illuminated by several 200-lumen headlamps (operating on low and 
 partial power).
  
 (Where did you get that??!!, they asked.)
  
 (We are cavers, the reply.)
  
 The next day was also beautiful (Saturday) but the extent of the outage in 
 West Virginia became apparent - it was NOT just Lewisburg.  Refrigeration was 
 out everywhere, as was all power for any services, including pumping gas.  It 
 had been our plan to re-visit haunts from 56 years ago around Cass, Senica 
 Rocks, Germany Valley, and Franklin.  We had a full tank so headed north.  
 All services were out.  We found one or two rural gas stations where the 
 owner had a generator, and the lines were 50 plus cars from each direction 
 and rapidly selling out of whatever gas they had in their tanks.  The 
 batteries in the cell towers ran out and so did that service. Without power, 
 of course there was no internet.  We found lunch in Elkins by going to the 
 hospital cafeteria. (Bright idea, Mary!)
  
 Our thought was that we would not have any problems once we got east into 
 Virginia.  Bad thought.  Most of Harrisonburg and Staunton were either 
 without power or running on half-power(120 V, not 240v).  What few hotels 
 that had power were swamped with 

Re: [SWR] [Texascavers] Aftermath of the NSS Convention - one experience

[Peter Jones]

I just want to add to George's statement that John Woods from California won 
the Arts and Letters Award this year for his work in photography and vertical 
training.  Like many others, no one could hear the presentation.  John most 
certainly deserved his moment, just as all the other recipients did.  Sad for 
everyone who didn't get their acknowledgment.  By the time most of them did, 
half the NSS was outside trying to hold onto their belongings and rescue other 
peoples' possessions.  

Once again, a typical NSS Convention with all the usual suspects….

Peter




On Jul 1, 2012, at 11:08 PM, George Veni wrote:

 I've just flown back to El Paso from DC and am driving home to Carlsbad. I 
 was luckier than most, having camped in my rental car which survived 
 undamaged, dry, and with a full tank of gas that let me enjoy Saturday's 
 hydrology field trip and reach DC without any problem. There I stayed with my 
 old friend Larry Cohen whose neighborhood was an island of electrical power.
 
 While we're incredibly lucky no caver was hurt in the storm (to the best of 
 my knowledge), the timing was terrible for the many people who have given so 
 much to caving and missed their moment of recognition. Dwight accidentally 
 proves my point in mentioning Art Palmer's award. Art didn't get an award. He 
 was yelling into the dark banquet hall, describing the accomplishments of the 
 NSS' newest Honorary Member Dr. Pavel Bosak of the Czech Republic.
 
 Look in the NSS News in a couple of months to see all of the award 
 recipients' names, and make sure to give them the pat on the back they missed 
 but greatly deserve.
 
 George 
 
 
 
 
 George Veni, Ph.D.
 Executive Director
 National Cave  Karst Research Institute
 400-1 Cascades Avenue
 Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA
 Office: 575-887-5517
 Mobile: 210-863-5919
 Fax: 575-887-5523
 gv...@nckri.org
 www.nckri.org 
 
 Sent by mobile phone.
 
 
 
  Original message 
 Subject: [Texascavers] Aftermath of the NSS Convention - one experience 
 From: dirt...@comcast.net 
 To: Cave NM s...@caver.net,Cave Texas Texascavers@texascavers.com,TAG Net 
 tag-...@hiddenworld.net 
 CC: 
 
 
  
 Sunday Evening
  
 We are still in the Great Eastern Power Outage.  For those NOT at the 
 convention in Lewisburg, The power from Ohio through West Virginia, Virginia, 
 DC, Rhode Island and parts of New Jersey and North Carolina, and, in 
 Lewisburg, went out just as the awards ceremonies at the NSS Banquet started. 
 The weather was hot but otherwise wonderful all week, but the NSS convention 
 weather fortune continued on Friday night!
  
 The power went out and killed the projectors and sound after most had 
 finished eating, and speakers bravely shoutedawards the names of the new 
 Fellows. Then, when Art Palmer rose to accept his well-deserved award, the 
 Great Gust arrived, clearing the campground (literally) and blowing some 
 tents over 1/4 mile - we later saw one flattened tent pinned against the 
 fence around the Fair Grounds on the East side of the one-way road to the 
 south (just south of the limbs of a huge fallen tree which blocked the 
 highway).  After the wind threatened the integrity of the doors to the 
 banquet hall, the ceremonies deteriorated further.
  
 All roads from the normal exit from our part of the Fair Grounds were 
 blocked by numerous fallen trees.  By some devious route-finding (and an 
 unexpectedly unlocked gate), we found our way across the Fair Grounds and out 
 to the one-way road on the other side, heading north.  A bit more devious 
 route finding across much lesser streets got us successfully to our hotel for 
 a powerless night.  Hotel operators wringing their hands were amazed by our 
 cheery room, illuminated by several 200-lumen headlamps (operating on low and 
 partial power).
  
 (Where did you get that??!!, they asked.)
  
 (We are cavers, the reply.)
  
 The next day was also beautiful (Saturday) but the extent of the outage in 
 West Virginia became apparent - it was NOT just Lewisburg.  Refrigeration was 
 out everywhere, as was all power for any services, including pumping gas.  It 
 had been our plan to re-visit haunts from 56 years ago around Cass, Senica 
 Rocks, Germany Valley, and Franklin.  We had a full tank so headed north.  
 All services were out.  We found one or two rural gas stations where the 
 owner had a generator, and the lines were 50 plus cars from each direction 
 and rapidly selling out of whatever gas they had in their tanks.  The 
 batteries in the cell towers ran out and so did that service. Without power, 
 of course there was no internet.  We found lunch in Elkins by going to the 
 hospital cafeteria. (Bright idea, Mary!)
  
 Our thought was that we would not have any problems once we got east into 
 Virginia.  Bad thought.  Most of Harrisonburg and Staunton were either 
 without power or running on half-power(120 V, not 240v).  What few hotels 
 that had power were swamped with 

Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering

[Peter Jones]

I will add my two cents worth to this.  I had the good fortune to discover 
Andy's Cave back in 1970.  As a small cave in a difficult location to find, it 
did not receive much visitation to speak of.  Within a couple of years of its 
discovery, it started to show the signs of wear and tear, much to my dismay.  
One of the extremely delicate rimstone dams in the back end of it was damaged 
by someone walking on it.  I was not happy.  Many years later, I returned again 
with Ransom on a trip and discovered that another dam was damaged.  Several 
years after that, on my fourth or so trip in there, I found that about 10 of 
them were completely broken.  The time since I was in there with Ransom to the 
time I returned as Trip Leader for that cave, all the entries had been made on 
TL guided trips.  I am making the assumption that it was likely on one of those 
TL guided trips with competent cavers that the bulk of damage was done, most 
likely by one large footed inconsiderate SOB who either wasn't being led 
properly or did the damage while no one was looking.  The area is now pretty 
well ruined as a result.  I realize that it was done under the guidance of a 
trip leader for which there is seemingly no excuse for that happening, but I 
also shudder to think what would have happened if some unguided, unthinking, 
uncaring lug nut of a caver just decided to tromp through there.  It is sad 
occurrences like this that have been responsible for the closing or tightening 
of permitting on various caves.  In a sense, we have met the enemy and they are 
us…

I agree with Aaron that there are still plenty of cave permits available to be 
had.  It does take a bit more planning than usual to get those permits for 
specific time slots, but then again, there are a hell of lot more cavers out 
there now than there were way back when.  I remember several summers in the 
Guads in the late sixties/seventies when we spent weeks up there on top of the 
ridge and virtually NEVER saw anyone else up there.  Nearly everyone was off in 
Vietnam or elsewhere at the time.  Now there's a whole new group of people 
coming.  In fact, John's recent posting about the discovery in Lech was amazing 
to me in that I didn't recognize 80% of the names of people who were on that 
trip.  Most of them looked a lot younger than I am.

I also don't go caving out there as much as I'd like to, given that there's a 
couple thousand miles between me and the Guads, but I also don't ever seem to 
have much trouble to find some caving opportunities out there of my own choice. 
 Unfortunately, the scourge of WNS has brought that tragedy to the forefront of 
consciousness in the minds of Americans in general and thus they complain that 
cavers, who may be a vector for the spread of the disease in their minds,  
should be kept out to stop that spread.  We do what we can to stop that train 
of thought, but for the uninitiated, it is hard to make an argument in our 
favor.

And that's all I have to say about that…

Peter





On May 29, 2012, at 8:39 AM, Aaron Stockton wrote:

 All
 
 I plan on writing something about this for the caver so I won't drag on. But 
 I must say that there is plenty of recreational caving going on. I know this 
 because I issue permits or give directions on a weekly if not daily basis. 
 And most of these people are young. Just friday I met with two young guys 
 from Ft. Bliss in El Paso. I sent them to Parks Ranch and Mudgett's and more 
 excited they could not be. I doubt you will ever see them at a Regional or a 
 Grotto meeting. Just as everyone that owns a gun is not going to join the 
 NRA. Its just a fact. I caved for 5 years or so before I ever joined the NSS. 
 What bothers me more are the new people that DO join the grottos and the 
 Region but quickly drop out, yet continue to come to me for permits, 
 directions, etc. If I didn't actually like ya'll so damn much, I would have 
 probably dropped out already as opposed to constantly hear how things suck 
 now and how much better they used to be. But seriously attitudes can do a 
 great deal in retaining young people and new members. Remember, most of these 
 people have already dealt with permits, bureaucracy, etc before coming to 
 regional events and meetings. Hell, they grew up with bureaucracy in ever 
 aspect of their lives! Remember, we never experienced being able to carry 
 knives and cigarette lighters onto planes. My point being that a cave permit 
 isn't going to keep someone that is truly interested in caving away. And sour 
 attitudes won't either. But they will keep them out of our organizations. 
 
 Aaron
 Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net
 Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 12:12:10 
 To: hrduch...@gmail.com
 Cc: s...@caver.net
 Subject: Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering
 
 Harvey, Ken,
   The argument about lack of freedom to do what we want in caves without 
 

Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering

[Peter Jones]

I will add my two cents worth to this.  I had the good fortune to discover 
Andy's Cave back in 1970.  As a small cave in a difficult location to find, it 
did not receive much visitation to speak of.  Within a couple of years of its 
discovery, it started to show the signs of wear and tear, much to my dismay.  
One of the extremely delicate rimstone dams in the back end of it was damaged 
by someone walking on it.  I was not happy.  Many years later, I returned again 
with Ransom on a trip and discovered that another dam was damaged.  Several 
years after that, on my fourth or so trip in there, I found that about 10 of 
them were completely broken.  The time since I was in there with Ransom to the 
time I returned as Trip Leader for that cave, all the entries had been made on 
TL guided trips.  I am making the assumption that it was likely on one of those 
TL guided trips with competent cavers that the bulk of damage was done, most 
likely by one large footed inconsiderate SOB who either wasn't being led 
properly or did the damage while no one was looking.  The area is now pretty 
well ruined as a result.  I realize that it was done under the guidance of a 
trip leader for which there is seemingly no excuse for that happening, but I 
also shudder to think what would have happened if some unguided, unthinking, 
uncaring lug nut of a caver just decided to tromp through there.  It is sad 
occurrences like this that have been responsible for the closing or tightening 
of permitting on various caves.  In a sense, we have met the enemy and they are 
us…

I agree with Aaron that there are still plenty of cave permits available to be 
had.  It does take a bit more planning than usual to get those permits for 
specific time slots, but then again, there are a hell of lot more cavers out 
there now than there were way back when.  I remember several summers in the 
Guads in the late sixties/seventies when we spent weeks up there on top of the 
ridge and virtually NEVER saw anyone else up there.  Nearly everyone was off in 
Vietnam or elsewhere at the time.  Now there's a whole new group of people 
coming.  In fact, John's recent posting about the discovery in Lech was amazing 
to me in that I didn't recognize 80% of the names of people who were on that 
trip.  Most of them looked a lot younger than I am.

I also don't go caving out there as much as I'd like to, given that there's a 
couple thousand miles between me and the Guads, but I also don't ever seem to 
have much trouble to find some caving opportunities out there of my own choice. 
 Unfortunately, the scourge of WNS has brought that tragedy to the forefront of 
consciousness in the minds of Americans in general and thus they complain that 
cavers, who may be a vector for the spread of the disease in their minds,  
should be kept out to stop that spread.  We do what we can to stop that train 
of thought, but for the uninitiated, it is hard to make an argument in our 
favor.

And that's all I have to say about that…

Peter





On May 29, 2012, at 8:39 AM, Aaron Stockton wrote:

 All
 
 I plan on writing something about this for the caver so I won't drag on. But 
 I must say that there is plenty of recreational caving going on. I know this 
 because I issue permits or give directions on a weekly if not daily basis. 
 And most of these people are young. Just friday I met with two young guys 
 from Ft. Bliss in El Paso. I sent them to Parks Ranch and Mudgett's and more 
 excited they could not be. I doubt you will ever see them at a Regional or a 
 Grotto meeting. Just as everyone that owns a gun is not going to join the 
 NRA. Its just a fact. I caved for 5 years or so before I ever joined the NSS. 
 What bothers me more are the new people that DO join the grottos and the 
 Region but quickly drop out, yet continue to come to me for permits, 
 directions, etc. If I didn't actually like ya'll so damn much, I would have 
 probably dropped out already as opposed to constantly hear how things suck 
 now and how much better they used to be. But seriously attitudes can do a 
 great deal in retaining young people and new members. Remember, most of these 
 people have already dealt with permits, bureaucracy, etc before coming to 
 regional events and meetings. Hell, they grew up with bureaucracy in ever 
 aspect of their lives! Remember, we never experienced being able to carry 
 knives and cigarette lighters onto planes. My point being that a cave permit 
 isn't going to keep someone that is truly interested in caving away. And sour 
 attitudes won't either. But they will keep them out of our organizations. 
 
 Aaron
 Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net
 Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 12:12:10 
 To: hrduch...@gmail.com
 Cc: s...@caver.net
 Subject: Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering
 
 Harvey, Ken,
   The argument about lack of freedom to do what we want in caves without 
 

Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering

[Peter Jones]

I will add my two cents worth to this.  I had the good fortune to discover 
Andy's Cave back in 1970.  As a small cave in a difficult location to find, it 
did not receive much visitation to speak of.  Within a couple of years of its 
discovery, it started to show the signs of wear and tear, much to my dismay.  
One of the extremely delicate rimstone dams in the back end of it was damaged 
by someone walking on it.  I was not happy.  Many years later, I returned again 
with Ransom on a trip and discovered that another dam was damaged.  Several 
years after that, on my fourth or so trip in there, I found that about 10 of 
them were completely broken.  The time since I was in there with Ransom to the 
time I returned as Trip Leader for that cave, all the entries had been made on 
TL guided trips.  I am making the assumption that it was likely on one of those 
TL guided trips with competent cavers that the bulk of damage was done, most 
likely by one large footed inconsiderate SOB who either wasn't being led 
properly or did the damage while no one was looking.  The area is now pretty 
well ruined as a result.  I realize that it was done under the guidance of a 
trip leader for which there is seemingly no excuse for that happening, but I 
also shudder to think what would have happened if some unguided, unthinking, 
uncaring lug nut of a caver just decided to tromp through there.  It is sad 
occurrences like this that have been responsible for the closing or tightening 
of permitting on various caves.  In a sense, we have met the enemy and they are 
us…

I agree with Aaron that there are still plenty of cave permits available to be 
had.  It does take a bit more planning than usual to get those permits for 
specific time slots, but then again, there are a hell of lot more cavers out 
there now than there were way back when.  I remember several summers in the 
Guads in the late sixties/seventies when we spent weeks up there on top of the 
ridge and virtually NEVER saw anyone else up there.  Nearly everyone was off in 
Vietnam or elsewhere at the time.  Now there's a whole new group of people 
coming.  In fact, John's recent posting about the discovery in Lech was amazing 
to me in that I didn't recognize 80% of the names of people who were on that 
trip.  Most of them looked a lot younger than I am.

I also don't go caving out there as much as I'd like to, given that there's a 
couple thousand miles between me and the Guads, but I also don't ever seem to 
have much trouble to find some caving opportunities out there of my own choice. 
 Unfortunately, the scourge of WNS has brought that tragedy to the forefront of 
consciousness in the minds of Americans in general and thus they complain that 
cavers, who may be a vector for the spread of the disease in their minds,  
should be kept out to stop that spread.  We do what we can to stop that train 
of thought, but for the uninitiated, it is hard to make an argument in our 
favor.

And that's all I have to say about that…

Peter





On May 29, 2012, at 8:39 AM, Aaron Stockton wrote:

 All
 
 I plan on writing something about this for the caver so I won't drag on. But 
 I must say that there is plenty of recreational caving going on. I know this 
 because I issue permits or give directions on a weekly if not daily basis. 
 And most of these people are young. Just friday I met with two young guys 
 from Ft. Bliss in El Paso. I sent them to Parks Ranch and Mudgett's and more 
 excited they could not be. I doubt you will ever see them at a Regional or a 
 Grotto meeting. Just as everyone that owns a gun is not going to join the 
 NRA. Its just a fact. I caved for 5 years or so before I ever joined the NSS. 
 What bothers me more are the new people that DO join the grottos and the 
 Region but quickly drop out, yet continue to come to me for permits, 
 directions, etc. If I didn't actually like ya'll so damn much, I would have 
 probably dropped out already as opposed to constantly hear how things suck 
 now and how much better they used to be. But seriously attitudes can do a 
 great deal in retaining young people and new members. Remember, most of these 
 people have already dealt with permits, bureaucracy, etc before coming to 
 regional events and meetings. Hell, they grew up with bureaucracy in ever 
 aspect of their lives! Remember, we never experienced being able to carry 
 knives and cigarette lighters onto planes. My point being that a cave permit 
 isn't going to keep someone that is truly interested in caving away. And sour 
 attitudes won't either. But they will keep them out of our organizations. 
 
 Aaron
 Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net
 Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 12:12:10 
 To: hrduch...@gmail.com
 Cc: s...@caver.net
 Subject: Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering
 
 Harvey, Ken,
   The argument about lack of freedom to do what we want in caves without 
 

Re: [SWR] Panoramic Photo

[Peter Jones]

I want a copy of that photo, even if it's just a jpeg.  I can always Photoshop 
my way into the image.  Let me know how to get hold of it when done.  Just wish 
I could be there as well…

Peter





On May 23, 2012, at 8:25 AM, Steve Peerman wrote:

 Hi all!
   The last I heard, we had 112 people signed up for the 50th Anniversary 
 celebration!  It will be fantastic to see everyone.   One thing to let 
 everyone know, is that Pete Lindsley has agreed to take a panoramic photo of 
 the group on the Quad at Fort Stanton just prior to the dinner at 6 pm.   So 
 as everyone gathers near the cafeteria for the dinner, around 5:45 or so,  
 please plan on being part of this historic photo.  If we can gather everyone 
 together, it shouldn't take more than 5 or 10 minutes to get the photo done.
   See you there!
 
 Steve Peerman
 
   Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you 
 didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, Sail away from 
 the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. 
 Discover.
attributed to Mark Twain, but no record exists of his having written this.
 
 
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Re: [SWR] Panoramic Photo

[Peter Jones]

I want a copy of that photo, even if it's just a jpeg.  I can always Photoshop 
my way into the image.  Let me know how to get hold of it when done.  Just wish 
I could be there as well…

Peter





On May 23, 2012, at 8:25 AM, Steve Peerman wrote:

 Hi all!
   The last I heard, we had 112 people signed up for the 50th Anniversary 
 celebration!  It will be fantastic to see everyone.   One thing to let 
 everyone know, is that Pete Lindsley has agreed to take a panoramic photo of 
 the group on the Quad at Fort Stanton just prior to the dinner at 6 pm.   So 
 as everyone gathers near the cafeteria for the dinner, around 5:45 or so,  
 please plan on being part of this historic photo.  If we can gather everyone 
 together, it shouldn't take more than 5 or 10 minutes to get the photo done.
   See you there!
 
 Steve Peerman
 
   Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you 
 didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, Sail away from 
 the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. 
 Discover.
attributed to Mark Twain, but no record exists of his having written this.
 
 
 ___
 SWR mailing list
 s...@caver.net
 http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net

___
SWR mailing list
s...@caver.net
http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net

Re: [SWR] Panoramic Photo

[Peter Jones]

I want a copy of that photo, even if it's just a jpeg.  I can always Photoshop 
my way into the image.  Let me know how to get hold of it when done.  Just wish 
I could be there as well…

Peter





On May 23, 2012, at 8:25 AM, Steve Peerman wrote:

 Hi all!
   The last I heard, we had 112 people signed up for the 50th Anniversary 
 celebration!  It will be fantastic to see everyone.   One thing to let 
 everyone know, is that Pete Lindsley has agreed to take a panoramic photo of 
 the group on the Quad at Fort Stanton just prior to the dinner at 6 pm.   So 
 as everyone gathers near the cafeteria for the dinner, around 5:45 or so,  
 please plan on being part of this historic photo.  If we can gather everyone 
 together, it shouldn't take more than 5 or 10 minutes to get the photo done.
   See you there!
 
 Steve Peerman
 
   Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you 
 didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, Sail away from 
 the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. 
 Discover.
attributed to Mark Twain, but no record exists of his having written this.
 
 
 ___
 SWR mailing list
 s...@caver.net
 http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net

___
SWR mailing list
s...@caver.net
http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net

Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed

[Peter Jones]

Mike et al:  I have a comment to make on what you just suggested and I agree 
with you 100%.  Years ago when the battle was on in Congress over the removal 
of lands from mineral exploration (drilling for oil) north of the CACA NP 
boundary because of Lech, I actually went to visit four congress people in 
Washington, DC.  I was already in the area because of doing some craft shows 
just north of DC, so took an extra day and made appointments to visit some 
Senators and Representatives.  The only real Senator I got to see was Domenici 
back when he was still in office.  I also visited Bingaman's office (I think 
that's whose it was) and those of two of my senators from Maine.  It was 
enlightening in many ways.  For one thing, I was probably one of the only 
actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other cutthroat 
scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the issue 
directly to congress people.  Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other 
than a lawyer/lobbyist came in, but there I was, a caver, loaded with my own 
photos to illustrate the beauty that is Lech as an example of what would be 
lost  if the unthinkable occurred.  I think the associate I met with in 
Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time by *being a 
mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her.  I can still see her flared 
nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!!  
Anyway, my two senators from Maine seemed very interested as I was likely the 
only 
person from Maine to even bring it up.

I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything we 
wished for.  Yates still drilled, hit a dry hole and plugged it up with no 
damage to known caves.  Considering all that, we lucked out.  Now we face a 
different threat that comes in the form of legal people trying, for better or 
worse, to save bats.  They do so by laying the blame of the spread of the 
disease directly at our feet.  At least we agree with them that the spread of 
the disease is bad, but where we disagree is that it is spread by a human 
vector.  If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need 
to respond to them in kind.  Very few of us are lawyers, but that doesn't mean 
that we can't approach our own senators and representatives with our own 
responses to their attack.  We need to agree that the spread of WNS is terrible 
and that we are doing all we can to prevent it through our own self-imposed 
decon- strategies, but be forceful in saying that the human vector has not been 
proven anywhere by anybody.  Clearly the closing of caves is more detrimental 
to them (the article on Fern, for example, is a good illustration) than 
allowing for controlled visits.  If we don't make that point to them, we will 
lose out to CBD without a fight.  If all caves are closed to everyone, that's 
like having a fire and locking out all the firemen to put it out!!

There is no reason why we can't use our constitutional rights to address our 
senators and representatives about what the CBD is doing.  As you said, Mike, 
it's the numbers and we have far more of them than CBD does at the moment.

Peter




On Apr 14, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Mike Bilbo wrote:

 From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt 
 to sign - just in case.  Personal letters are better but the main thing that 
 happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by 
 subject and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea 
 or nay c, which could merit discussion.  These days, it's people with 
 political connections and officers of organizations who might be able able to 
 get through.  A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your Congressional 
 Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the congressperson or 
 senator will actually be it.  But the staffers will talk to you and that's 
 the best chance - you might end up on the phone in person.
 
 But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and 
 creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on 
 these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental 
 Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act.  Uh oh - 
 it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative administration, 
 CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council and that law sure 
 can.  It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it through, but it can be 
 brought to bear in some very serious ways.  Next - CBD and their supportive 
 allies are doing way more than just a petition:  lobbying and personal 
 meetings with congressional delegations.  Strategies.
 
 So, what shall the Cavers' and other reasonable citizens' strategy(ies) be?  
 Nope, you can't just sign a petition and that's it.  We got way more work to 
 do.
  
 Mike
 
 From: Kathy Peerman 

Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed

[Peter Jones]

Mike et al:  I have a comment to make on what you just suggested and I agree 
with you 100%.  Years ago when the battle was on in Congress over the removal 
of lands from mineral exploration (drilling for oil) north of the CACA NP 
boundary because of Lech, I actually went to visit four congress people in 
Washington, DC.  I was already in the area because of doing some craft shows 
just north of DC, so took an extra day and made appointments to visit some 
Senators and Representatives.  The only real Senator I got to see was Domenici 
back when he was still in office.  I also visited Bingaman's office (I think 
that's whose it was) and those of two of my senators from Maine.  It was 
enlightening in many ways.  For one thing, I was probably one of the only 
actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other cutthroat 
scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the issue 
directly to congress people.  Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other 
than a lawyer/lobbyist came in, but there I was, a caver, loaded with my own 
photos to illustrate the beauty that is Lech as an example of what would be 
lost  if the unthinkable occurred.  I think the associate I met with in 
Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time by *being a 
mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her.  I can still see her flared 
nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!!  
Anyway, my two senators from Maine seemed very interested as I was likely the 
only 
person from Maine to even bring it up.

I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything we 
wished for.  Yates still drilled, hit a dry hole and plugged it up with no 
damage to known caves.  Considering all that, we lucked out.  Now we face a 
different threat that comes in the form of legal people trying, for better or 
worse, to save bats.  They do so by laying the blame of the spread of the 
disease directly at our feet.  At least we agree with them that the spread of 
the disease is bad, but where we disagree is that it is spread by a human 
vector.  If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need 
to respond to them in kind.  Very few of us are lawyers, but that doesn't mean 
that we can't approach our own senators and representatives with our own 
responses to their attack.  We need to agree that the spread of WNS is terrible 
and that we are doing all we can to prevent it through our own self-imposed 
decon- strategies, but be forceful in saying that the human vector has not been 
proven anywhere by anybody.  Clearly the closing of caves is more detrimental 
to them (the article on Fern, for example, is a good illustration) than 
allowing for controlled visits.  If we don't make that point to them, we will 
lose out to CBD without a fight.  If all caves are closed to everyone, that's 
like having a fire and locking out all the firemen to put it out!!

There is no reason why we can't use our constitutional rights to address our 
senators and representatives about what the CBD is doing.  As you said, Mike, 
it's the numbers and we have far more of them than CBD does at the moment.

Peter




On Apr 14, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Mike Bilbo wrote:

 From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt 
 to sign - just in case.  Personal letters are better but the main thing that 
 happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by 
 subject and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea 
 or nay c, which could merit discussion.  These days, it's people with 
 political connections and officers of organizations who might be able able to 
 get through.  A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your Congressional 
 Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the congressperson or 
 senator will actually be it.  But the staffers will talk to you and that's 
 the best chance - you might end up on the phone in person.
 
 But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and 
 creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on 
 these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental 
 Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act.  Uh oh - 
 it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative administration, 
 CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council and that law sure 
 can.  It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it through, but it can be 
 brought to bear in some very serious ways.  Next - CBD and their supportive 
 allies are doing way more than just a petition:  lobbying and personal 
 meetings with congressional delegations.  Strategies.
 
 So, what shall the Cavers' and other reasonable citizens' strategy(ies) be?  
 Nope, you can't just sign a petition and that's it.  We got way more work to 
 do.
  
 Mike
 
 From: Kathy Peerman 

Re: [SWR] Keeping public lands caves open to the public - strategies needed

[Peter Jones]

Mike et al:  I have a comment to make on what you just suggested and I agree 
with you 100%.  Years ago when the battle was on in Congress over the removal 
of lands from mineral exploration (drilling for oil) north of the CACA NP 
boundary because of Lech, I actually went to visit four congress people in 
Washington, DC.  I was already in the area because of doing some craft shows 
just north of DC, so took an extra day and made appointments to visit some 
Senators and Representatives.  The only real Senator I got to see was Domenici 
back when he was still in office.  I also visited Bingaman's office (I think 
that's whose it was) and those of two of my senators from Maine.  It was 
enlightening in many ways.  For one thing, I was probably one of the only 
actual citizens (as opposed to corporate lobbyists, lawyers and other cutthroat 
scum that passes for citizens) who came in to speak my mind on the issue 
directly to congress people.  Domenici seemed mildly amused that someone other 
than a lawyer/lobbyist came in, but there I was, a caver, loaded with my own 
photos to illustrate the beauty that is Lech as an example of what would be 
lost  if the unthinkable occurred.  I think the associate I met with in 
Bingaman's office was livid that I was wasting her important time by *being a 
mere citizen* and addressing my grievances to her.  I can still see her flared 
nostrils over the insolence of trying to express my views about saving Lech!!  
Anyway, my two senators from Maine seemed very interested as I was likely the 
only 
person from Maine to even bring it up.

I realize that in regards to that issue that we didn't quite get everything we 
wished for.  Yates still drilled, hit a dry hole and plugged it up with no 
damage to known caves.  Considering all that, we lucked out.  Now we face a 
different threat that comes in the form of legal people trying, for better or 
worse, to save bats.  They do so by laying the blame of the spread of the 
disease directly at our feet.  At least we agree with them that the spread of 
the disease is bad, but where we disagree is that it is spread by a human 
vector.  If they're going to mount a legal attack on us, I agree that we need 
to respond to them in kind.  Very few of us are lawyers, but that doesn't mean 
that we can't approach our own senators and representatives with our own 
responses to their attack.  We need to agree that the spread of WNS is terrible 
and that we are doing all we can to prevent it through our own self-imposed 
decon- strategies, but be forceful in saying that the human vector has not been 
proven anywhere by anybody.  Clearly the closing of caves is more detrimental 
to them (the article on Fern, for example, is a good illustration) than 
allowing for controlled visits.  If we don't make that point to them, we will 
lose out to CBD without a fight.  If all caves are closed to everyone, that's 
like having a fire and locking out all the firemen to put it out!!

There is no reason why we can't use our constitutional rights to address our 
senators and representatives about what the CBD is doing.  As you said, Mike, 
it's the numbers and we have far more of them than CBD does at the moment.

Peter




On Apr 14, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Mike Bilbo wrote:

 From what I know, Washington pretty much ignores petitions, but doesn't hurt 
 to sign - just in case.  Personal letters are better but the main thing that 
 happens there by staffers is they just get quantified in statistics by 
 subject and keywords and presented to Congress as percentages on issues, yea 
 or nay c, which could merit discussion.  These days, it's people with 
 political connections and officers of organizations who might be able able to 
 get through.  A basic strategy is you got to go meet with your Congressional 
 Delegation - go to the offices in person, and maybe the congressperson or 
 senator will actually be it.  But the staffers will talk to you and that's 
 the best chance - you might end up on the phone in person.
 
 But the Center for Biological Travesty strategy here is interesting and 
 creative (in war, strategies count) - since they already lost a lawsuit on 
 these lines big-time, they are taking it to the Council on Environmental 
 Quality, which was created by the National Environmental Policy Act.  Uh oh - 
 it doesn't matter whether you got a liberal or conservative administration, 
 CEQ and NEPA can really impact the situation - that council and that law sure 
 can.  It's a good law and sure am glad Nixon got it through, but it can be 
 brought to bear in some very serious ways.  Next - CBD and their supportive 
 allies are doing way more than just a petition:  lobbying and personal 
 meetings with congressional delegations.  Strategies.
 
 So, what shall the Cavers' and other reasonable citizens' strategy(ies) be?  
 Nope, you can't just sign a petition and that's it.  We got way more work to 
 do.
  
 Mike
 
 From: Kathy Peerman 

Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public

[Peter Jones]

Jeez, Steve, and here I was going to sign that petition just to feel like I was 
doing *something* to stop the CBD from controlling the situation.  Dunham, 
whoever he is, says that CBD is petitioning the White House themselves to close 
all caves.  If so, they are pissing in the wind as well, according to your 
view.  However, if they get the upper hand by THEIR petition and we as cavers 
do nothing to stop their petition or at least counteract it with one of our 
own, then we're the ones who got pissed on downwind, not them.  As a friend of 
a friend once said, don't get any on ya'….  This is sure a political hot button 
for everyone, no matter which side of the WNS and cave closure issue you come 
down on.  Signing it, despite all its defects and whether it is effective or 
not, can't hurt and at least gives some of us the opportunity to voice an 
equally strong opinion about *not* closing down caves en masse.  With all the 
money that some of the private commercial cave owners have (Luray, Howe, etc), 
it is highly unlikely that CBD will be able to close down all caves, no matter 
who owns them.  You can stop the supposed human vector, as yet unproved, and 
leave it to the bats to do the spreading all by themselves as they seem to be 
doing a fine job of already.  Alas, WNS was confirmed in Maine earlier this 
year and there are no commercial caves in our state and virtually no cavers to 
spread it.  In fact, it showed up in mines, not caves and most cavers don't do 
mines anyway.

Having said all that, I was very frustrated in trying to find a way to sign the 
damned thing as it was.  I signed in but could never get back to the petition 
to sign it and couldn't find it anywhere once I was signed in.  It's a 
conspiracy!!!  It's those damned liberals…..  Wait, I'm one of them.  Yikes!!!

Peter


On Apr 13, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote:

 Total waste of time.
 
 CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact 
 that they can reap millions in litigation.
 
 This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more.
 
 Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by 
 repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has 
 never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it 
 being endlessly repeated as fact.
 
 Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is 
 going to change. 
 
 Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to 
 emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no 
 interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a 
 blip on the money screen.
 
 Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on 
 any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of 
 your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in 
 the wind.
 
 
 On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote:
 
 Begin forwarded message:
 Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
 
 As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all
 public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open.
 This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when
 responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the
 bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can
 be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever
 existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to
 conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science,
 and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this
 cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open.
 
 https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F
 
 Sincerely,
 John Dunham
 
 ___
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http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net

Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public

[Peter Jones]

Jeez, Steve, and here I was going to sign that petition just to feel like I was 
doing *something* to stop the CBD from controlling the situation.  Dunham, 
whoever he is, says that CBD is petitioning the White House themselves to close 
all caves.  If so, they are pissing in the wind as well, according to your 
view.  However, if they get the upper hand by THEIR petition and we as cavers 
do nothing to stop their petition or at least counteract it with one of our 
own, then we're the ones who got pissed on downwind, not them.  As a friend of 
a friend once said, don't get any on ya'….  This is sure a political hot button 
for everyone, no matter which side of the WNS and cave closure issue you come 
down on.  Signing it, despite all its defects and whether it is effective or 
not, can't hurt and at least gives some of us the opportunity to voice an 
equally strong opinion about *not* closing down caves en masse.  With all the 
money that some of the private commercial cave owners have (Luray, Howe, etc), 
it is highly unlikely that CBD will be able to close down all caves, no matter 
who owns them.  You can stop the supposed human vector, as yet unproved, and 
leave it to the bats to do the spreading all by themselves as they seem to be 
doing a fine job of already.  Alas, WNS was confirmed in Maine earlier this 
year and there are no commercial caves in our state and virtually no cavers to 
spread it.  In fact, it showed up in mines, not caves and most cavers don't do 
mines anyway.

Having said all that, I was very frustrated in trying to find a way to sign the 
damned thing as it was.  I signed in but could never get back to the petition 
to sign it and couldn't find it anywhere once I was signed in.  It's a 
conspiracy!!!  It's those damned liberals…..  Wait, I'm one of them.  Yikes!!!

Peter


On Apr 13, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote:

 Total waste of time.
 
 CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact 
 that they can reap millions in litigation.
 
 This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more.
 
 Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by 
 repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has 
 never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it 
 being endlessly repeated as fact.
 
 Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is 
 going to change. 
 
 Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to 
 emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no 
 interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a 
 blip on the money screen.
 
 Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on 
 any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of 
 your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in 
 the wind.
 
 
 On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote:
 
 Begin forwarded message:
 Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
 
 As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all
 public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open.
 This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when
 responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the
 bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can
 be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever
 existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to
 conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science,
 and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this
 cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open.
 
 https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F
 
 Sincerely,
 John Dunham
 
 ___
 SWR mailing list
 s...@caver.net
 http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net

___
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s...@caver.net
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Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public

[Peter Jones]

Jeez, Steve, and here I was going to sign that petition just to feel like I was 
doing *something* to stop the CBD from controlling the situation.  Dunham, 
whoever he is, says that CBD is petitioning the White House themselves to close 
all caves.  If so, they are pissing in the wind as well, according to your 
view.  However, if they get the upper hand by THEIR petition and we as cavers 
do nothing to stop their petition or at least counteract it with one of our 
own, then we're the ones who got pissed on downwind, not them.  As a friend of 
a friend once said, don't get any on ya'….  This is sure a political hot button 
for everyone, no matter which side of the WNS and cave closure issue you come 
down on.  Signing it, despite all its defects and whether it is effective or 
not, can't hurt and at least gives some of us the opportunity to voice an 
equally strong opinion about *not* closing down caves en masse.  With all the 
money that some of the private commercial cave owners have (Luray, Howe, etc), 
it is highly unlikely that CBD will be able to close down all caves, no matter 
who owns them.  You can stop the supposed human vector, as yet unproved, and 
leave it to the bats to do the spreading all by themselves as they seem to be 
doing a fine job of already.  Alas, WNS was confirmed in Maine earlier this 
year and there are no commercial caves in our state and virtually no cavers to 
spread it.  In fact, it showed up in mines, not caves and most cavers don't do 
mines anyway.

Having said all that, I was very frustrated in trying to find a way to sign the 
damned thing as it was.  I signed in but could never get back to the petition 
to sign it and couldn't find it anywhere once I was signed in.  It's a 
conspiracy!!!  It's those damned liberals…..  Wait, I'm one of them.  Yikes!!!

Peter


On Apr 13, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote:

 Total waste of time.
 
 CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact 
 that they can reap millions in litigation.
 
 This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more.
 
 Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by 
 repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has 
 never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it 
 being endlessly repeated as fact.
 
 Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is 
 going to change. 
 
 Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to 
 emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no 
 interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a 
 blip on the money screen.
 
 Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on 
 any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of 
 your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in 
 the wind.
 
 
 On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote:
 
 Begin forwarded message:
 Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
 
 As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all
 public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open.
 This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when
 responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the
 bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can
 be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever
 existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to
 conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science,
 and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this
 cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open.
 
 https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F
 
 Sincerely,
 John Dunham
 
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Re: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo

[Peter Jones]

No, that is definitely not my photo.  I went into Lincoln Caverns in 2006, if I 
recall, but those aren't the people I took with me.  I would recognize that 
photo if it were mine.

The reason I said that the photo is fairly recent is based more on the clothing 
and style of hardhat the people are wearing.  People started switching over to 
tights for caving in the 90's, but I think the hardhat design on the Petzl 
helmut is a more recent version as in the 2000's.  Just hypothesizing here…

Peter

pjca...@gwi.net





On Apr 2, 2012, at 10:29 PM, John Corcoran wrote:

 Mike,
  
 I think the photo is from Peter Jones and could be as far back as 2004.  I 
 don’t have Peter’s email address, but asked someone else to check.
  
 Regards,
  
 John
  
 From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of 
 Bilbo, Michael J
 Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 11:17 AM
 To: 'lstarr...@gmail.com'; 's...@caver.net'
 Subject: Re: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo
  
 I-ve seen that photo before and think it was mineralogy or DNA HIB trip from 
 2008-2010 but can't I'd anyone via the Blackberry screen. On Wednesday or 
 Thursday I'll be able to look at permits to find the last Lincoln trips.
 
 John Corcoran - can you do a search through FSCSP reports to see when the 
 last Lincoln trips were? Diana Northup -could you do same? My recollection of 
 late period pre-moratorium was a DNA HIB trip.
  
 From: Linda Starr [mailto:lstarr...@gmail.com] 
 Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:09 AM
 To: Southwestern Region s...@caver.net 
 Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo 
  
 Hi All,
  This photo is being used in the Lincoln Caverns Discovery story written 
 by Lee Skinner for the 50th Anniversary Memoir booklet. Does anyone out there 
 recognize this photo and know who the people are and what year this was taken?
  Let me know if you know anything about it.
 
 Linda Starr
 
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Re: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo

[Peter Jones]

Come to think of it, I'd be happy to take credit for that nice photo if anyone 
wants to give it to me…..  LOL


Peter



On Apr 3, 2012, at 10:57 AM, Peter Jones wrote:

 No, that is definitely not my photo.  I went into Lincoln Caverns in 2006, if 
 I recall, but those aren't the people I took with me.  I would recognize that 
 photo if it were mine.
 
 The reason I said that the photo is fairly recent is based more on the 
 clothing and style of hardhat the people are wearing.  People started 
 switching over to tights for caving in the 90's, but I think the hardhat 
 design on the Petzl helmut is a more recent version as in the 2000's.  Just 
 hypothesizing here…
 
 Peter
 
 pjca...@gwi.net
 
 
 
 SITDCP Card 2010.tif
 
 On Apr 2, 2012, at 10:29 PM, John Corcoran wrote:
 
 Mike,
  
 I think the photo is from Peter Jones and could be as far back as 2004.  I 
 don’t have Peter’s email address, but asked someone else to check.
  
 Regards,
  
 John
  
 From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of 
 Bilbo, Michael J
 Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 11:17 AM
 To: 'lstarr...@gmail.com'; 's...@caver.net'
 Subject: Re: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo
  
 I-ve seen that photo before and think it was mineralogy or DNA HIB trip from 
 2008-2010 but can't I'd anyone via the Blackberry screen. On Wednesday or 
 Thursday I'll be able to look at permits to find the last Lincoln trips.
 
 John Corcoran - can you do a search through FSCSP reports to see when the 
 last Lincoln trips were? Diana Northup -could you do same? My recollection 
 of late period pre-moratorium was a DNA HIB trip.
  
 From: Linda Starr [mailto:lstarr...@gmail.com] 
 Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:09 AM
 To: Southwestern Region s...@caver.net 
 Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo 
  
 Hi All,
  This photo is being used in the Lincoln Caverns Discovery story written 
 by Lee Skinner for the 50th Anniversary Memoir booklet. Does anyone out 
 there recognize this photo and know who the people are and what year this 
 was taken?
  Let me know if you know anything about it.
 
 Linda Starr
 
 ___
 SWR mailing list
 s...@caver.net
 http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
 
 ___
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 s...@caver.net
 http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net

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Re: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo

[Peter Jones]

No, that is definitely not my photo.  I went into Lincoln Caverns in 2006, if I 
recall, but those aren't the people I took with me.  I would recognize that 
photo if it were mine.

The reason I said that the photo is fairly recent is based more on the clothing 
and style of hardhat the people are wearing.  People started switching over to 
tights for caving in the 90's, but I think the hardhat design on the Petzl 
helmut is a more recent version as in the 2000's.  Just hypothesizing here…

Peter

pjca...@gwi.net





On Apr 2, 2012, at 10:29 PM, John Corcoran wrote:

 Mike,
  
 I think the photo is from Peter Jones and could be as far back as 2004.  I 
 don’t have Peter’s email address, but asked someone else to check.
  
 Regards,
  
 John
  
 From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of 
 Bilbo, Michael J
 Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 11:17 AM
 To: 'lstarr...@gmail.com'; 's...@caver.net'
 Subject: Re: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo
  
 I-ve seen that photo before and think it was mineralogy or DNA HIB trip from 
 2008-2010 but can't I'd anyone via the Blackberry screen. On Wednesday or 
 Thursday I'll be able to look at permits to find the last Lincoln trips.
 
 John Corcoran - can you do a search through FSCSP reports to see when the 
 last Lincoln trips were? Diana Northup -could you do same? My recollection of 
 late period pre-moratorium was a DNA HIB trip.
  
 From: Linda Starr [mailto:lstarr...@gmail.com] 
 Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:09 AM
 To: Southwestern Region s...@caver.net 
 Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo 
  
 Hi All,
  This photo is being used in the Lincoln Caverns Discovery story written 
 by Lee Skinner for the 50th Anniversary Memoir booklet. Does anyone out there 
 recognize this photo and know who the people are and what year this was taken?
  Let me know if you know anything about it.
 
 Linda Starr
 
 ___
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 s...@caver.net
 http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net

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s...@caver.net
http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net

Re: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo

[Peter Jones]

Come to think of it, I'd be happy to take credit for that nice photo if anyone 
wants to give it to me…..  LOL


Peter



On Apr 3, 2012, at 10:57 AM, Peter Jones wrote:

 No, that is definitely not my photo.  I went into Lincoln Caverns in 2006, if 
 I recall, but those aren't the people I took with me.  I would recognize that 
 photo if it were mine.
 
 The reason I said that the photo is fairly recent is based more on the 
 clothing and style of hardhat the people are wearing.  People started 
 switching over to tights for caving in the 90's, but I think the hardhat 
 design on the Petzl helmut is a more recent version as in the 2000's.  Just 
 hypothesizing here…
 
 Peter
 
 pjca...@gwi.net
 
 
 
 SITDCP Card 2010.tif
 
 On Apr 2, 2012, at 10:29 PM, John Corcoran wrote:
 
 Mike,
  
 I think the photo is from Peter Jones and could be as far back as 2004.  I 
 don’t have Peter’s email address, but asked someone else to check.
  
 Regards,
  
 John
  
 From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of 
 Bilbo, Michael J
 Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 11:17 AM
 To: 'lstarr...@gmail.com'; 's...@caver.net'
 Subject: Re: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo
  
 I-ve seen that photo before and think it was mineralogy or DNA HIB trip from 
 2008-2010 but can't I'd anyone via the Blackberry screen. On Wednesday or 
 Thursday I'll be able to look at permits to find the last Lincoln trips.
 
 John Corcoran - can you do a search through FSCSP reports to see when the 
 last Lincoln trips were? Diana Northup -could you do same? My recollection 
 of late period pre-moratorium was a DNA HIB trip.
  
 From: Linda Starr [mailto:lstarr...@gmail.com] 
 Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:09 AM
 To: Southwestern Region s...@caver.net 
 Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo 
  
 Hi All,
  This photo is being used in the Lincoln Caverns Discovery story written 
 by Lee Skinner for the 50th Anniversary Memoir booklet. Does anyone out 
 there recognize this photo and know who the people are and what year this 
 was taken?
  Let me know if you know anything about it.
 
 Linda Starr
 
 ___
 SWR mailing list
 s...@caver.net
 http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
 
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 s...@caver.net
 http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net

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Re: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo

[Peter Jones]

No, that is definitely not my photo.  I went into Lincoln Caverns in 2006, if I 
recall, but those aren't the people I took with me.  I would recognize that 
photo if it were mine.

The reason I said that the photo is fairly recent is based more on the clothing 
and style of hardhat the people are wearing.  People started switching over to 
tights for caving in the 90's, but I think the hardhat design on the Petzl 
helmut is a more recent version as in the 2000's.  Just hypothesizing here…

Peter

pjca...@gwi.net





On Apr 2, 2012, at 10:29 PM, John Corcoran wrote:

 Mike,
  
 I think the photo is from Peter Jones and could be as far back as 2004.  I 
 don’t have Peter’s email address, but asked someone else to check.
  
 Regards,
  
 John
  
 From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of 
 Bilbo, Michael J
 Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 11:17 AM
 To: 'lstarr...@gmail.com'; 's...@caver.net'
 Subject: Re: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo
  
 I-ve seen that photo before and think it was mineralogy or DNA HIB trip from 
 2008-2010 but can't I'd anyone via the Blackberry screen. On Wednesday or 
 Thursday I'll be able to look at permits to find the last Lincoln trips.
 
 John Corcoran - can you do a search through FSCSP reports to see when the 
 last Lincoln trips were? Diana Northup -could you do same? My recollection of 
 late period pre-moratorium was a DNA HIB trip.
  
 From: Linda Starr [mailto:lstarr...@gmail.com] 
 Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:09 AM
 To: Southwestern Region s...@caver.net 
 Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo 
  
 Hi All,
  This photo is being used in the Lincoln Caverns Discovery story written 
 by Lee Skinner for the 50th Anniversary Memoir booklet. Does anyone out there 
 recognize this photo and know who the people are and what year this was taken?
  Let me know if you know anything about it.
 
 Linda Starr
 
 ___
 SWR mailing list
 s...@caver.net
 http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net

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s...@caver.net
http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net

Re: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo

[Peter Jones]

Come to think of it, I'd be happy to take credit for that nice photo if anyone 
wants to give it to me…..  LOL


Peter



On Apr 3, 2012, at 10:57 AM, Peter Jones wrote:

 No, that is definitely not my photo.  I went into Lincoln Caverns in 2006, if 
 I recall, but those aren't the people I took with me.  I would recognize that 
 photo if it were mine.
 
 The reason I said that the photo is fairly recent is based more on the 
 clothing and style of hardhat the people are wearing.  People started 
 switching over to tights for caving in the 90's, but I think the hardhat 
 design on the Petzl helmut is a more recent version as in the 2000's.  Just 
 hypothesizing here…
 
 Peter
 
 pjca...@gwi.net
 
 
 
 SITDCP Card 2010.tif
 
 On Apr 2, 2012, at 10:29 PM, John Corcoran wrote:
 
 Mike,
  
 I think the photo is from Peter Jones and could be as far back as 2004.  I 
 don’t have Peter’s email address, but asked someone else to check.
  
 Regards,
  
 John
  
 From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of 
 Bilbo, Michael J
 Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 11:17 AM
 To: 'lstarr...@gmail.com'; 's...@caver.net'
 Subject: Re: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo
  
 I-ve seen that photo before and think it was mineralogy or DNA HIB trip from 
 2008-2010 but can't I'd anyone via the Blackberry screen. On Wednesday or 
 Thursday I'll be able to look at permits to find the last Lincoln trips.
 
 John Corcoran - can you do a search through FSCSP reports to see when the 
 last Lincoln trips were? Diana Northup -could you do same? My recollection 
 of late period pre-moratorium was a DNA HIB trip.
  
 From: Linda Starr [mailto:lstarr...@gmail.com] 
 Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:09 AM
 To: Southwestern Region s...@caver.net 
 Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo 
  
 Hi All,
  This photo is being used in the Lincoln Caverns Discovery story written 
 by Lee Skinner for the 50th Anniversary Memoir booklet. Does anyone out 
 there recognize this photo and know who the people are and what year this 
 was taken?
  Let me know if you know anything about it.
 
 Linda Starr
 
 ___
 SWR mailing list
 s...@caver.net
 http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
 
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 s...@caver.net
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Re: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo

[Peter Jones]

Don't know who took the photo, but judging by the clothing and gear the cavers 
are wearing, it was likely a very recent photo, certainly not a discovery day 
photo by any means.

Peter




On Apr 2, 2012, at 1:09 AM, Linda Starr wrote:

 Hi All,
  This photo is being used in the Lincoln Caverns Discovery story written 
 by Lee Skinner for the 50th Anniversary Memoir booklet. Does anyone out there 
 recognize this photo and know who the people are and what year this was taken?
  Let me know if you know anything about it.
 
 Linda Starr
 
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Re: [SWR] Fwd: Lincoln Cavern photo

[Peter Jones]

Don't know who took the photo, but judging by the clothing and gear the cavers 
are wearing, it was likely a very recent photo, certainly not a discovery day 
photo by any means.

Peter




On Apr 2, 2012, at 1:09 AM, Linda Starr wrote:

 Hi All,
  This photo is being used in the Lincoln Caverns Discovery story written 
 by Lee Skinner for the 50th Anniversary Memoir booklet. Does anyone out there 
 recognize this photo and know who the people are and what year this was taken?
  Let me know if you know anything about it.
 
 Linda Starr
 
 DSCN0066.JPG___
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 http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net



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Re: [SWR] tshirts for SWR 50th anniversary

[Peter Jones]

Tan, Sand and Sports Gray are my three choices.  The tangerine is about as 
close as it would get to a burnt umber, but I know it would be WAY more orange 
than a good burnt umber would be.  I'll take at least two tees, probably three, 
all medium.

Peter





On Feb 26, 2012, at 8:02 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote:

 Folks, it would extremely helpful to our planning to be able to order tshirts 
 based on something more than a guess as to colors, sizes and quantity.
 
 To that end, please look at this page
 http://www.caves.org/region/swr/logo/index.html
 where you will find a variety of colors and this important caveat We propose 
 making the 50th T-Shirt design in several colors, although not as many colors 
 as shown below.
 
 If you are wanting tshirts marking this event, please send me the following 
 info not later than April 1.
 
 Your preferred color(s).
 Sizes.
 How many you anticipate purchasing.
 
 Your reply is not a commitment, but merely a straw poll to determine how best 
 to proceed. From a practical standpoint we likely will be looking at a 
 maximum of 3 color choices.
 
 Thank you.
 
 Stephen Fleming
 casto...@gmail.com
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Re: [SWR] FW: PLEASE HELP! Only 10 days left to get 22, 000 signatures!

[Peter Jones]

Already signed it a couple of weeks ago.  

Peter





On Nov 15, 2011, at 3:29 PM, jen . wrote:

 
 The NSS WNS Liaison is also endorsing this effort, please sign! 
 
 
 
 From: i...@batcon.org
 Subject: PLEASE HELP! Only 10 days left to get 22,000 signatures!
 To: bigredfo...@hotmail.com
 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:41:17 -0500
 
 
 We need 22,000 Signatures Before November 25!
 Please Help!
 We must convince President Obama to include funding for the fight against 
 White-nose Syndrome in his Fiscal Year 2013 budget. But with current economic 
 constraints, the President needs to hear from the public about the 
 devastating cost of WNS. We are using the White House’s new “We the People” 
 petition tool to make our request.
 White House staff will review our request only if we obtain 25,000 signatures 
 by November 25!
 SIGN UP HERE
 If you already have a whitehouse.gov account:
 Sign In to your account at the bottom of the petition page.
 After signing in, use the above link to return to the petition page and sign 
 the petition.
 If you are new to the whitehouse.gov webpage:
 Click Create an Account at the bottom of the petition page.
 Enter your information.
 Check your email account for log-on information from “We the People.”
 Verify your new “We the People” account by clicking the link provided in the 
 automated email.
 Return to the whitehouse.gov webpage by clicking the above “Sign Here” link, 
 which will take you directly to the WNS petition.
 Click the Sign this Petition button.
 We know it’s not easy to register on this site, but we really need you to 
 sign the petition. Please don’t give up.
 After signing, ask your friends, family and colleagues to sign, too!
 Thank you for your help!
  
 Bat Conservation International P.O. Box 162603 Austin, TX 78716 
 Phone: (512) 327-9721  |  Fax: (512) 327-9724  |  Email: i...@batcon.org
 Privacy Policy  |  Email Preferences  Opt-out© Bat Conservation 
 International, Inc.
 
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Re: [SWR] FW: PLEASE HELP! Only 10 days left to get 22, 000 signatures!

[Peter Jones]

Already signed it a couple of weeks ago.  

Peter





On Nov 15, 2011, at 3:29 PM, jen . wrote:

 
 The NSS WNS Liaison is also endorsing this effort, please sign! 
 
 
 
 From: i...@batcon.org
 Subject: PLEASE HELP! Only 10 days left to get 22,000 signatures!
 To: bigredfo...@hotmail.com
 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:41:17 -0500
 
 
 We need 22,000 Signatures Before November 25!
 Please Help!
 We must convince President Obama to include funding for the fight against 
 White-nose Syndrome in his Fiscal Year 2013 budget. But with current economic 
 constraints, the President needs to hear from the public about the 
 devastating cost of WNS. We are using the White House’s new “We the People” 
 petition tool to make our request.
 White House staff will review our request only if we obtain 25,000 signatures 
 by November 25!
 SIGN UP HERE
 If you already have a whitehouse.gov account:
 Sign In to your account at the bottom of the petition page.
 After signing in, use the above link to return to the petition page and sign 
 the petition.
 If you are new to the whitehouse.gov webpage:
 Click Create an Account at the bottom of the petition page.
 Enter your information.
 Check your email account for log-on information from “We the People.”
 Verify your new “We the People” account by clicking the link provided in the 
 automated email.
 Return to the whitehouse.gov webpage by clicking the above “Sign Here” link, 
 which will take you directly to the WNS petition.
 Click the Sign this Petition button.
 We know it’s not easy to register on this site, but we really need you to 
 sign the petition. Please don’t give up.
 After signing, ask your friends, family and colleagues to sign, too!
 Thank you for your help!
  
 Bat Conservation International P.O. Box 162603 Austin, TX 78716 
 Phone: (512) 327-9721  |  Fax: (512) 327-9724  |  Email: i...@batcon.org
 Privacy Policy  |  Email Preferences  Opt-out© Bat Conservation 
 International, Inc.
 
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Re: [SWR] FW: PLEASE HELP! Only 10 days left to get 22, 000 signatures!

[Peter Jones]

Already signed it a couple of weeks ago.  

Peter





On Nov 15, 2011, at 3:29 PM, jen . wrote:

 
 The NSS WNS Liaison is also endorsing this effort, please sign! 
 
 
 
 From: i...@batcon.org
 Subject: PLEASE HELP! Only 10 days left to get 22,000 signatures!
 To: bigredfo...@hotmail.com
 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:41:17 -0500
 
 
 We need 22,000 Signatures Before November 25!
 Please Help!
 We must convince President Obama to include funding for the fight against 
 White-nose Syndrome in his Fiscal Year 2013 budget. But with current economic 
 constraints, the President needs to hear from the public about the 
 devastating cost of WNS. We are using the White House’s new “We the People” 
 petition tool to make our request.
 White House staff will review our request only if we obtain 25,000 signatures 
 by November 25!
 SIGN UP HERE
 If you already have a whitehouse.gov account:
 Sign In to your account at the bottom of the petition page.
 After signing in, use the above link to return to the petition page and sign 
 the petition.
 If you are new to the whitehouse.gov webpage:
 Click Create an Account at the bottom of the petition page.
 Enter your information.
 Check your email account for log-on information from “We the People.”
 Verify your new “We the People” account by clicking the link provided in the 
 automated email.
 Return to the whitehouse.gov webpage by clicking the above “Sign Here” link, 
 which will take you directly to the WNS petition.
 Click the Sign this Petition button.
 We know it’s not easy to register on this site, but we really need you to 
 sign the petition. Please don’t give up.
 After signing, ask your friends, family and colleagues to sign, too!
 Thank you for your help!
  
 Bat Conservation International P.O. Box 162603 Austin, TX 78716 
 Phone: (512) 327-9721  |  Fax: (512) 327-9724  |  Email: i...@batcon.org
 Privacy Policy  |  Email Preferences  Opt-out© Bat Conservation 
 International, Inc.
 
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Re: [SWR] Martian sinkhole

[Peter Jones]

That is cool!!  Sign me up for the survey trip

Peter



On Aug 18, 2011, at 1:23 PM, Lee H. Skinner wrote:

 Could this entrance have been triggered by a meteor falling over a lava tube?
 
 http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_023531_1840
 
 and click on this one in your browser for maximum detail:
 
 http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/images/2011/details/cut/ESP_023531_1840.jpg
 
 Lee Skinner
 
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Re: [SWR] Martian sinkhole

[Peter Jones]

That is cool!!  Sign me up for the survey trip

Peter



On Aug 18, 2011, at 1:23 PM, Lee H. Skinner wrote:

 Could this entrance have been triggered by a meteor falling over a lava tube?
 
 http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_023531_1840
 
 and click on this one in your browser for maximum detail:
 
 http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/images/2011/details/cut/ESP_023531_1840.jpg
 
 Lee Skinner
 
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Re: [SWR] New Guadalupe District Ranger

[Peter Jones]

Ken:  Thanks for the information about the new LNF District Ranger.  You got it 
right that we need to educate him to the value of the caves in the Guads,  
Perhaps we should take him to Manhole to expedite the removal of stubborn rock 
face considering his past technical expertise in the USAF

See you all in Glenwood in a couple of months.

Peter





On May 17, 2011, at 2:52 PM, Ken Harrington wrote:

 Hi all,
  
 The new District Ranger for the Guadalupe District of the Lincoln National 
 Forest is a gentleman named Jim Gumm.  He is due to start his new job on the 
 20th of June.  Mr. Gumm has a MA in Organizational Communications and a BA in 
 Industrial Technology.   His last assignment was a the Public Affairs Officer 
 at Modoc National Forest.  He has been with the FS since 2008.  Prior to that 
 he was Deputy Director of Operations, Louisiana, FEMA.  He also spent 14 
 years in the USAF as an Explosive Ordinance Disposal Technician/Manager.  
 
 He and his wife have family in Albuquerque and have been frequest visitors to 
 the state.
  
 Personal note:  It is my understanding that Mr. Gumm has had very little (if 
 any) exposure to caves or cavers.  It will our job to insure he understands 
 the importance of the caves and the preservation of the caves in the LNF.
  
 I will attempt to get an appointment to visit with him soon after his arrival 
 to voice our concerns over the caves and the management of those caves.
  
 Ken   
 Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the 
 rain. 
 
 
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Re: [SWR] New Guadalupe District Ranger

[Peter Jones]

Ken:  Thanks for the information about the new LNF District Ranger.  You got it 
right that we need to educate him to the value of the caves in the Guads,  
Perhaps we should take him to Manhole to expedite the removal of stubborn rock 
face considering his past technical expertise in the USAF

See you all in Glenwood in a couple of months.

Peter





On May 17, 2011, at 2:52 PM, Ken Harrington wrote:

 Hi all,
  
 The new District Ranger for the Guadalupe District of the Lincoln National 
 Forest is a gentleman named Jim Gumm.  He is due to start his new job on the 
 20th of June.  Mr. Gumm has a MA in Organizational Communications and a BA in 
 Industrial Technology.   His last assignment was a the Public Affairs Officer 
 at Modoc National Forest.  He has been with the FS since 2008.  Prior to that 
 he was Deputy Director of Operations, Louisiana, FEMA.  He also spent 14 
 years in the USAF as an Explosive Ordinance Disposal Technician/Manager.  
 
 He and his wife have family in Albuquerque and have been frequest visitors to 
 the state.
  
 Personal note:  It is my understanding that Mr. Gumm has had very little (if 
 any) exposure to caves or cavers.  It will our job to insure he understands 
 the importance of the caves and the preservation of the caves in the LNF.
  
 I will attempt to get an appointment to visit with him soon after his arrival 
 to voice our concerns over the caves and the management of those caves.
  
 Ken   
 Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the 
 rain. 
 
 
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 s...@caver.net
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