RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Thank you Allan for the kudos on the newsletter. I’m going to take exception to Stefan’s comment regarding it being selfish for individual Grottos to publish their own newsletter since Bexar Grotto appears to be the only grotto publishing regularly. It takes a lot of work to get anyone to submit an article. I have several supporters in BG who regularly submit articles or photos, and encourage other members to write. The Texas Caver comes out quarterly, - I work at getting a monthly newsletter out when the news is fresh; and it is for the people who are most interested in it. I’ve also managed the layout for the TCMA newsletter for the last several years, even one edition from California. Hardly selfish. Maybe you are just trying to stir up some controversy Stephan. Ok I’ll bite, let’s have some fun. : ) Are you writing articles for the Texas Caver? Then perhaps you may have a point to call the Bexar Grotto selfish for keeping the Bexar Facts going. No actually you don’t. You sound a little like a spoiled, jealous kid who can’t have something someone else has……and so doesn’t want anyone else to have it and resort to name calling trying to instill guilt. Our newsletter helps keep our grotto members informed, connected, and interested. I have no intention of stopping. (Notice I didn’t call you a name. I said you sound like…) If you are not writing perhaps you should start?? Happy Caving Stephan and I hope to share a drink with you at CM in June! Jill From: Stefan Creaser [mailto:stefan.crea...@arm.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:49 PM To: freddie poer Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion I’m thinking that it’s very selfish of individual Grottos to produce their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver. Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a Grotto newsletter serve? My 2p. -Stefan From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:36 PM To: Bill Bentley Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion Now if all who responded to these e-mails would send in just one trip report, Mark might just have the materials he needs to work with. --- On Thu, 5/17/12, Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net wrote: From: Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 11:29 AM Don't give up.. Bill -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Thank you Allan for the kudos on the newsletter. I’m going to take exception to Stefan’s comment regarding it being selfish for individual Grottos to publish their own newsletter since Bexar Grotto appears to be the only grotto publishing regularly. It takes a lot of work to get anyone to submit an article. I have several supporters in BG who regularly submit articles or photos, and encourage other members to write. The Texas Caver comes out quarterly, - I work at getting a monthly newsletter out when the news is fresh; and it is for the people who are most interested in it. I’ve also managed the layout for the TCMA newsletter for the last several years, even one edition from California. Hardly selfish. Maybe you are just trying to stir up some controversy Stephan. Ok I’ll bite, let’s have some fun. : ) Are you writing articles for the Texas Caver? Then perhaps you may have a point to call the Bexar Grotto selfish for keeping the Bexar Facts going. No actually you don’t. You sound a little like a spoiled, jealous kid who can’t have something someone else has……and so doesn’t want anyone else to have it and resort to name calling trying to instill guilt. Our newsletter helps keep our grotto members informed, connected, and interested. I have no intention of stopping. (Notice I didn’t call you a name. I said you sound like…) If you are not writing perhaps you should start?? Happy Caving Stephan and I hope to share a drink with you at CM in June! Jill From: Stefan Creaser [mailto:stefan.crea...@arm.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:49 PM To: freddie poer Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion I’m thinking that it’s very selfish of individual Grottos to produce their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver. Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a Grotto newsletter serve? My 2p. -Stefan From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:36 PM To: Bill Bentley Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion Now if all who responded to these e-mails would send in just one trip report, Mark might just have the materials he needs to work with. --- On Thu, 5/17/12, Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net wrote: From: Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 11:29 AM Don't give up.. Bill -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Thank you Allan for the kudos on the newsletter. I’m going to take exception to Stefan’s comment regarding it being selfish for individual Grottos to publish their own newsletter since Bexar Grotto appears to be the only grotto publishing regularly. It takes a lot of work to get anyone to submit an article. I have several supporters in BG who regularly submit articles or photos, and encourage other members to write. The Texas Caver comes out quarterly, - I work at getting a monthly newsletter out when the news is fresh; and it is for the people who are most interested in it. I’ve also managed the layout for the TCMA newsletter for the last several years, even one edition from California. Hardly selfish. Maybe you are just trying to stir up some controversy Stephan. Ok I’ll bite, let’s have some fun. : ) Are you writing articles for the Texas Caver? Then perhaps you may have a point to call the Bexar Grotto selfish for keeping the Bexar Facts going. No actually you don’t. You sound a little like a spoiled, jealous kid who can’t have something someone else has……and so doesn’t want anyone else to have it and resort to name calling trying to instill guilt. Our newsletter helps keep our grotto members informed, connected, and interested. I have no intention of stopping. (Notice I didn’t call you a name. I said you sound like…) If you are not writing perhaps you should start?? Happy Caving Stephan and I hope to share a drink with you at CM in June! Jill From: Stefan Creaser [mailto:stefan.crea...@arm.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:49 PM To: freddie poer Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion I’m thinking that it’s very selfish of individual Grottos to produce their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver. Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a Grotto newsletter serve? My 2p. -Stefan From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:36 PM To: Bill Bentley Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion Now if all who responded to these e-mails would send in just one trip report, Mark might just have the materials he needs to work with. --- On Thu, 5/17/12, Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net wrote: From: Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 11:29 AM Don't give up.. Bill -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this. --- On Fri, 5/18/12, George Veni gv...@nckri.org wrote: From: George Veni gv...@nckri.org Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: 'freddie poer' freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Date: Friday, May 18, 2012, 1:06 PM Recreational caving is the backbone of all cave related activities. Cave science, cave management, making the public supportive and aware of the importance of caves, cannot be done without recreational caving. It provides the starting point where most cave scientists, managers, educators, etc., get the spark to pursue their careers. It is the basic training ground for those cavers who want to focus on mapping, photographing, diving, and doing so many other things in and related to caves. Caving organizations from the local to international levels understand this relationship and their charters include “cave exploration” (or related terms) as important a part of their structure as the other specialties. In my view, anyone who feels that one group of cavers is better than another is missing the big picture. The recreational caver who doesn’t survey, do restoration projects, or collect scientific data is still providing the integral service of visiting caves, reporting discoveries and changes, and caving with and thus training others who may decide to specialize their cave activities. Lastly, I prefer the term “recreational” caver to “sport” caver. The latter implies competitions and game-type activities that are, if not reckless in a cave, then certainly have the potential to harm caves. “Recreational” caver is better but not perfect. I love doing science, exploration, survey, photography, restoration, training, and visiting caves with no other purpose than to enjoy being there. And I find it all “recreational.” George *** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 575-887-5523 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 13:28 To: gv...@nckri.org Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion Does this mean that you are in favor of sport caving? --- On Thu, 5/17/12, George Veni gv...@nckri.org wrote: From: George Veni gv...@nckri.org Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: 'Texas Cavers' Texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 10:06 AM Reading this e-mail exchange and the perceived focus on too many science articles in the TC made me think that I didn’t recall any recent science articles. So I took a quick at the table of contents for the last nine issues through the start of 2010 and found a total of 60 articles listed. I found an abundance of reports on surveys, projects, and generally lots of “fun” (non-project/non-survey/non-sciency) caving Texas cavers are doing in Texas, with a small number of reports on caving in Mexico. I found reports on TCRs, TSA conventions, equipment reports, and news I expect most cavers would be interested in. I only found one article that could be classified as “science,” a nice 1-page report by Jerry Atkinson and Butch Fralia on bad air in Texas caves. Considering how many Texas caves have bad air, I’d also expect this would be of interest to most cavers who generally aren’t interested in science articles. So for at least for the past two years, the TC has had a nice mix of articles with no bias toward science. As I also skimmed through these articles, I was impressed with the great quality of caving, maps, reporting, and information provided by Texas cavers, and Mark’s skills at coaxing the articles and photos and providing them to us in a beautiful format. It has always been necessary for TC editors to arm-twist articles from cavers. And there are always cycles where minimal twisting is needed and times like now where tons of pressure produces little result. I deeply appreciate Mark’s efforts and those of past editors. It is not an easy job. In hopes that it helps Mark at least a little, here are two thoughts that might get some of you to send in material. 1) If you are organizing a trip or project, the cave owner or manager may want a trip report. Sometimes they don’t ask for one, but to maintain access to the cave many cavers will often send an occasional trip report or summary of trips. If you do this, and the owner
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this. --- On Fri, 5/18/12, George Veni gv...@nckri.org wrote: From: George Veni gv...@nckri.org Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: 'freddie poer' freddiepoe...@yahoo.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Friday, May 18, 2012, 1:06 PM Recreational caving is the backbone of all cave related activities. Cave science, cave management, making the public supportive and aware of the importance of caves, cannot be done without recreational caving. It provides the starting point where most cave scientists, managers, educators, etc., get the spark to pursue their careers. It is the basic training ground for those cavers who want to focus on mapping, photographing, diving, and doing so many other things in and related to caves. Caving organizations from the local to international levels understand this relationship and their charters include “cave exploration” (or related terms) as important a part of their structure as the other specialties. In my view, anyone who feels that one group of cavers is better than another is missing the big picture. The recreational caver who doesn’t survey, do restoration projects, or collect scientific data is still providing the integral service of visiting caves, reporting discoveries and changes, and caving with and thus training others who may decide to specialize their cave activities. Lastly, I prefer the term “recreational” caver to “sport” caver. The latter implies competitions and game-type activities that are, if not reckless in a cave, then certainly have the potential to harm caves. “Recreational” caver is better but not perfect. I love doing science, exploration, survey, photography, restoration, training, and visiting caves with no other purpose than to enjoy being there. And I find it all “recreational.” George *** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 575-887-5523 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 13:28 To: gv...@nckri.org Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion Does this mean that you are in favor of sport caving? --- On Thu, 5/17/12, George Veni gv...@nckri.org wrote: From: George Veni gv...@nckri.org Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: 'Texas Cavers' Texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 10:06 AM Reading this e-mail exchange and the perceived focus on too many science articles in the TC made me think that I didn’t recall any recent science articles. So I took a quick at the table of contents for the last nine issues through the start of 2010 and found a total of 60 articles listed. I found an abundance of reports on surveys, projects, and generally lots of “fun” (non-project/non-survey/non-sciency) caving Texas cavers are doing in Texas, with a small number of reports on caving in Mexico. I found reports on TCRs, TSA conventions, equipment reports, and news I expect most cavers would be interested in. I only found one article that could be classified as “science,” a nice 1-page report by Jerry Atkinson and Butch Fralia on bad air in Texas caves. Considering how many Texas caves have bad air, I’d also expect this would be of interest to most cavers who generally aren’t interested in science articles. So for at least for the past two years, the TC has had a nice mix of articles with no bias toward science. As I also skimmed through these articles, I was impressed with the great quality of caving, maps, reporting, and information provided by Texas cavers, and Mark’s skills at coaxing the articles and photos and providing them to us in a beautiful format. It has always been necessary for TC editors to arm-twist articles from cavers. And there are always cycles where minimal twisting is needed and times like now where tons of pressure produces little result. I deeply appreciate Mark’s efforts and those of past editors. It is not an easy job. In hopes that it helps Mark at least a little, here are two thoughts that might get some of you to send in material. 1) If you are organizing a trip or project, the cave owner or manager may want a trip report. Sometimes they don’t ask for one, but to maintain access to the cave many cavers will often send an
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Freddie wrote: “It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this.” I’m about to start a couple of weeks of travel and endless meetings, and I may be slow or unable to respond to messages for a while. But before I disappear I’m sending this message to clarify things about me and NCKRI. My message below was on my views and was not an official position by NCKRI. NCKRI hasn’t taken a position on the question of recreational caving. However, while I’m the Executive Director you can expect that my views will generally reflect the unofficial position of the Institute until either the positions are made formal, my Board of Directors says otherwise, or possibly when a new Executive Director takes my place (which I hope will be a long time off). As for NCKRI itself, it has a convoluted origin. It was initially an institute within the National Park Service, with matching funds from the State of New Mexico and a partnership with the City of Carlsbad to build its headquarters. For greater flexibility, in 2006 NCKRI was changed to a non-profit that is administered by the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology (aka New Mexico Tech). But we are a hybrid non-profit. We still answer to Congress and have federal funding so we are somewhat federal. We still get state funding and are state employees through New Mexico Tech, so we are somewhat state. Using its own money, plus state and federal money, the City of Carlsbad built our headquarters for us and that is our home. But we are still an independent non-profit. When I first got here in 2007 I was concerned about the proverbial “too many cooks that might spoil the soup.” Instead, it has been a beautiful partnership where NCKRI gains strength and opportunities through its partners in ways that regular non-profits couldn’t dream of, while being able to do things its partners can’t dream of because NCKRI is in fact a non-profit. When it comes to federal regulation of caves and karst, NCKRI has no authority. When we are invited to serve on committees and teams from the local to international level, governmental and private, unless one of those teams is given actually authority on an issue (which is rare), our role is just as an advisor. While I support recreational caving, I also support responsible caving. I know my Board, founding partners, and staff support me on this. There are times when certain activities in caves are not appropriate in certain situations. In those cases I’ll err on the side of protecting the cave. If the cave isn’t our priority, it won’t be available or available in a way where we can continue to enjoy it for recreation, science, or other purposes as we had before. I won’t discuss hypothetical situations or examples where NCKRI isn’t involved and doesn’t have all of the information firsthand. For NCKRI to do what it was created to do and in the most effective manner, NCKRI and its staff don’t need to get involved in personal or political conflicts and intrigues. If we are confronted with a situation where we must take a position, we will do it case-by-case, with as much firsthand information as possible, and after careful consideration of the many possible consequences. If anyone wants to know more about NCKRI, visit our website, www.nckri.org. For a more comprehensive overview and history, look in the “About NCKRI” tab and under the “Publications” menu you’ll find all of our annual reports available for viewing and download. If you want to discuss something directly with me, contact me off-list. I’ll be glad to visit with anyone, but it will have to be after June 7th. George *** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 575-887-5523 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 17:04 To: gv...@nckri.org Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this. --- On Fri, 5/18/12, George Veni gv...@nckri.org wrote: From: George Veni gv...@nckri.org Subject: RE:
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this. --- On Fri, 5/18/12, George Veni gv...@nckri.org wrote: From: George Veni gv...@nckri.org Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: 'freddie poer' freddiepoe...@yahoo.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Friday, May 18, 2012, 1:06 PM Recreational caving is the backbone of all cave related activities. Cave science, cave management, making the public supportive and aware of the importance of caves, cannot be done without recreational caving. It provides the starting point where most cave scientists, managers, educators, etc., get the spark to pursue their careers. It is the basic training ground for those cavers who want to focus on mapping, photographing, diving, and doing so many other things in and related to caves. Caving organizations from the local to international levels understand this relationship and their charters include “cave exploration” (or related terms) as important a part of their structure as the other specialties. In my view, anyone who feels that one group of cavers is better than another is missing the big picture. The recreational caver who doesn’t survey, do restoration projects, or collect scientific data is still providing the integral service of visiting caves, reporting discoveries and changes, and caving with and thus training others who may decide to specialize their cave activities. Lastly, I prefer the term “recreational” caver to “sport” caver. The latter implies competitions and game-type activities that are, if not reckless in a cave, then certainly have the potential to harm caves. “Recreational” caver is better but not perfect. I love doing science, exploration, survey, photography, restoration, training, and visiting caves with no other purpose than to enjoy being there. And I find it all “recreational.” George *** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 575-887-5523 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 13:28 To: gv...@nckri.org Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion Does this mean that you are in favor of sport caving? --- On Thu, 5/17/12, George Veni gv...@nckri.org wrote: From: George Veni gv...@nckri.org Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: 'Texas Cavers' Texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 10:06 AM Reading this e-mail exchange and the perceived focus on too many science articles in the TC made me think that I didn’t recall any recent science articles. So I took a quick at the table of contents for the last nine issues through the start of 2010 and found a total of 60 articles listed. I found an abundance of reports on surveys, projects, and generally lots of “fun” (non-project/non-survey/non-sciency) caving Texas cavers are doing in Texas, with a small number of reports on caving in Mexico. I found reports on TCRs, TSA conventions, equipment reports, and news I expect most cavers would be interested in. I only found one article that could be classified as “science,” a nice 1-page report by Jerry Atkinson and Butch Fralia on bad air in Texas caves. Considering how many Texas caves have bad air, I’d also expect this would be of interest to most cavers who generally aren’t interested in science articles. So for at least for the past two years, the TC has had a nice mix of articles with no bias toward science. As I also skimmed through these articles, I was impressed with the great quality of caving, maps, reporting, and information provided by Texas cavers, and Mark’s skills at coaxing the articles and photos and providing them to us in a beautiful format. It has always been necessary for TC editors to arm-twist articles from cavers. And there are always cycles where minimal twisting is needed and times like now where tons of pressure produces little result. I deeply appreciate Mark’s efforts and those of past editors. It is not an easy job. In hopes that it helps Mark at least a little, here are two thoughts that might get some of you to send in material. 1) If you are organizing a trip or project, the cave owner or manager may want a trip report. Sometimes they don’t ask for one, but to maintain access to the cave many cavers will often send an
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Freddie wrote: “It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this.” I’m about to start a couple of weeks of travel and endless meetings, and I may be slow or unable to respond to messages for a while. But before I disappear I’m sending this message to clarify things about me and NCKRI. My message below was on my views and was not an official position by NCKRI. NCKRI hasn’t taken a position on the question of recreational caving. However, while I’m the Executive Director you can expect that my views will generally reflect the unofficial position of the Institute until either the positions are made formal, my Board of Directors says otherwise, or possibly when a new Executive Director takes my place (which I hope will be a long time off). As for NCKRI itself, it has a convoluted origin. It was initially an institute within the National Park Service, with matching funds from the State of New Mexico and a partnership with the City of Carlsbad to build its headquarters. For greater flexibility, in 2006 NCKRI was changed to a non-profit that is administered by the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology (aka New Mexico Tech). But we are a hybrid non-profit. We still answer to Congress and have federal funding so we are somewhat federal. We still get state funding and are state employees through New Mexico Tech, so we are somewhat state. Using its own money, plus state and federal money, the City of Carlsbad built our headquarters for us and that is our home. But we are still an independent non-profit. When I first got here in 2007 I was concerned about the proverbial “too many cooks that might spoil the soup.” Instead, it has been a beautiful partnership where NCKRI gains strength and opportunities through its partners in ways that regular non-profits couldn’t dream of, while being able to do things its partners can’t dream of because NCKRI is in fact a non-profit. When it comes to federal regulation of caves and karst, NCKRI has no authority. When we are invited to serve on committees and teams from the local to international level, governmental and private, unless one of those teams is given actually authority on an issue (which is rare), our role is just as an advisor. While I support recreational caving, I also support responsible caving. I know my Board, founding partners, and staff support me on this. There are times when certain activities in caves are not appropriate in certain situations. In those cases I’ll err on the side of protecting the cave. If the cave isn’t our priority, it won’t be available or available in a way where we can continue to enjoy it for recreation, science, or other purposes as we had before. I won’t discuss hypothetical situations or examples where NCKRI isn’t involved and doesn’t have all of the information firsthand. For NCKRI to do what it was created to do and in the most effective manner, NCKRI and its staff don’t need to get involved in personal or political conflicts and intrigues. If we are confronted with a situation where we must take a position, we will do it case-by-case, with as much firsthand information as possible, and after careful consideration of the many possible consequences. If anyone wants to know more about NCKRI, visit our website, www.nckri.org. For a more comprehensive overview and history, look in the “About NCKRI” tab and under the “Publications” menu you’ll find all of our annual reports available for viewing and download. If you want to discuss something directly with me, contact me off-list. I’ll be glad to visit with anyone, but it will have to be after June 7th. George *** George Veni, Ph.D. Executive Director National Cave and Karst Research Institute 400-1 Cascades Avenue Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215 USA Office: 575-887-5517 Mobile: 210-863-5919 Fax: 575-887-5523 gv...@nckri.org www.nckri.org From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 17:04 To: gv...@nckri.org Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this. --- On Fri, 5/18/12, George Veni gv...@nckri.org wrote: From: George Veni gv...@nckri.org Subject: RE:
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Superb idea, Mark! Editors, do your part. Thanks, Mark -Original Message- From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 4:08 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion However in the present situation with few articles available, it might make sense to submit all trip reports to both the local newsletter and Texas Caver. Mark - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Just wanted to thank all of you for the great response, compliments, ideas, and suggestions to Mimi and my post here on CaveTex. It was encouraging to see all of your thoughts on how to get more material for publication in The TEXAS CAVER and I was pleasantly surprised to hear that not all of the Grotto newsletters out there are defunct. It was also very pleasing to see all of the back and forth conducted in a civil, respectful, and productive manner, for the most part! I have received plenty of promises for material for the next couple of issues (Yes, I will stay on as Editor ONLY if I start receiving more material!). Like the discussion that was triggered by Mimi and my “discussion”, all of this discussing is for naught if it doesn’t equate into submissions! Talk is cheap, but, keep discussing if y’all want to! So, c’mon all of you cavers and Grottos, active or armchair, let the Texas caving community know what you have been up to and, if you haven’t done so already, join the TSA! Mucho gracias! Mark
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Superb idea, Mark! Editors, do your part. Thanks, Mark -Original Message- From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 4:08 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion However in the present situation with few articles available, it might make sense to submit all trip reports to both the local newsletter and Texas Caver. Mark - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Just wanted to thank all of you for the great response, compliments, ideas, and suggestions to Mimi and my post here on CaveTex. It was encouraging to see all of your thoughts on how to get more material for publication in The TEXAS CAVER and I was pleasantly surprised to hear that not all of the Grotto newsletters out there are defunct. It was also very pleasing to see all of the back and forth conducted in a civil, respectful, and productive manner, for the most part! I have received plenty of promises for material for the next couple of issues (Yes, I will stay on as Editor ONLY if I start receiving more material!). Like the discussion that was triggered by Mimi and my “discussion”, all of this discussing is for naught if it doesn’t equate into submissions! Talk is cheap, but, keep discussing if y’all want to! So, c’mon all of you cavers and Grottos, active or armchair, let the Texas caving community know what you have been up to and, if you haven’t done so already, join the TSA! Mucho gracias! Mark
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Superb idea, Mark! Editors, do your part. Thanks, Mark -Original Message- From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 4:08 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion However in the present situation with few articles available, it might make sense to submit all trip reports to both the local newsletter and Texas Caver. Mark - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Just wanted to thank all of you for the great response, compliments, ideas, and suggestions to Mimi and my post here on CaveTex. It was encouraging to see all of your thoughts on how to get more material for publication in The TEXAS CAVER and I was pleasantly surprised to hear that not all of the Grotto newsletters out there are defunct. It was also very pleasing to see all of the back and forth conducted in a civil, respectful, and productive manner, for the most part! I have received plenty of promises for material for the next couple of issues (Yes, I will stay on as Editor ONLY if I start receiving more material!). Like the discussion that was triggered by Mimi and my “discussion”, all of this discussing is for naught if it doesn’t equate into submissions! Talk is cheap, but, keep discussing if y’all want to! So, c’mon all of you cavers and Grottos, active or armchair, let the Texas caving community know what you have been up to and, if you haven’t done so already, join the TSA! Mucho gracias! Mark
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
This post is interesting and definitely thought-provoking--thank you. I'm sure there will be discussion in response to this post. Regarding the list of apparently defunct grotto newsletters I wanted to make a correction and a comment: Correction (and not to be critical, but to recognize all those who have worked their butts off for PBSS): We have had many editors over the years (some before my time as a caver so I might miss one or two). In addition to Bill Bentley, we oweTony Grieco, Jim Nance, Don Carlton, Ken Kamon, the Coffins, Jan Anderle, Walter Feaster (for years and years), Michael Anderson, the DiTullios, and Kel Thomas. Since PBSS's start in 1983, Spylunk, which became the Hole News, has disappeared for a year or more at a time. It always returns. Jacqui Thomas Secretary, PBSS On May 17, 2012, at 6:59 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few years and whose opinions I highly respect. In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into the past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER. My responses are in BOLD TYPE. Mark, I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers like myself, Jim, and so many others I know or have known are not scientists. We are sport cavers. We cave for the joy and fun and love of this unusual activity, and the beauty we get to see in the pursuit of our passion. We cave, we map, we take pictures. Agreed, as am I and my kids. We go for the fun and camaraderie of it and for the chance to explore a new, alien world. It may not be virgin cave, but, if we haven't been there, it's virgin to us! What we don't do is send in the simple and fun trip reports that our caving would produce, probably so as not to place ourselves as objects of criticism from those who have elevated this activity into such lofty scientific and expedition type reporting that our efforts would be ridiculed! Have you read the old TCs from the 70s etc? How fun were those trip reports and novice articles? Didn't you read on cavetex how that one Aggie caver's wild and rambling report got slammed? Agree again and, yes, I have read them. They are a lot of fun and I enjoy the irreverent attitude in a lot of the articles. I also see how, even back then, there was complaining about no inputs from anyone and the state of the TSA! I used to get slammed by a few folks about fonts, punctuation, and the usual BS, as the Aggie report was slammed. (I enjoyed the article and told them as much). I think you and others - like maybe our current officers - need to try an attitude adjustment in the minds of Texas cavers old and new. Let people know the TC is open to all who wish to send in something about caving here, or if somewhere else, caving done by Texas cavers wherever! Trip reports, poetry, songs, art etc. Scientific and expedition project work NOT necessary! Just cavers writing about caving. I agree and have made repeated appeals to newbie writers in the past in my various postings on CaveTex that you don't have to be a Nobel laureate in order to send something in. The only thing I get back is the sounds of crickets chirping. Although we all love the amazing and scientific/expedition type articles so beautifully and painstakingly produced, I feel that should not be the only content. Is notice by the NSS more important than the continuation of the TC for the long run? Without material, there is no TC, so perhaps that wonderful caving mag should strive to return to simpler and fun times?:) Maybe that would encourage more input. Wholeheartedly agree again, Mimi. If people don't care enough to send material in, I don't care enough to be the Editor after this next issue of the TC. Think about what I've said here. Our world is so electronic now. People have Internet, cable tv, Facebook, etc. It is so easy to produce quality articles with all the tools we have at our disposal now. But people are busy living in our fast paced world, and will not take time to contribute to something if made to feel inferior or unappreciated. They have better ways to use their time for their own personal enjoyment and fulfillment. Wow, we agree again. It’s the dumbing down, ADD world that the digital age has wrought. No one reads papers, reads books, or writes or reads anything of heft and substance. Idiocracy is becoming the new norm (look it up in Wikipedia) and people would rather post some nonsensical post about their need for coffee
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
I think that you will find a lot of us unscientific or sport cavers agree with this. I think there should be a sport caving society formed, that go caving just for the fun of it. Kind of like what the Texas Cavers were twenty years ago. Maybe the caving community has gone a little too far toward the scientific side. There are countless scientific journals out there to cover the needs of the scientific community, if anyone cares to read such dry boring drivel. The N.S.S. and the T.S.A. was started by cavers to serve the needs of cavers, not the academic or science communities. Cavers have drifted so far toward the attitude that caving should only be done for expedition or scientific research that the average sport caver is losing interest in the organizations that were originally formed to benefit cavers. Most of us started caving because it is fun, not because we were pursuing a science related career. Now, many cavers look with disdain upon others who go caving just for the fun of it. Maybe we should go back to being cavers, and not feel like we have to justify every trip for training, mapping, or scientific research. Or, we can watch the N.S.S. and Texas Caver die a slow death, and start the National Sport Caving Society (N.S.C.S.). This is just my opinion of course, and probably will not be considered valid because I do not put the letters P.H.D. behind my name. I am anxiously awaiting the backlash from the academic types. Freddie I. Poer Jr. ( The Jr. is part of my name, not a paper title) --- On Thu, 5/17/12, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: From: mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com Subject: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: texascavers@texascavers.com Cc: Mimi Jasek mjca...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 6:59 AM Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few years and whose opinions I highly respect. In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into the past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER. My responses are in BOLD TYPE. Mark, I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers like myself, Jim, and so many others I know or have known are not scientists. We are sport cavers. We cave for the joy and fun and love of this unusual activity, and the beauty we get to see in the pursuit of our passion. We cave, we map, we take pictures. Agreed, as am I and my kids. We go for the fun and camaraderie of it and for the chance to explore a new, alien world. It may not be virgin cave, but, if we haven't been there, it's virgin to us! What we don't do is send in the simple and fun trip reports that our caving would produce, probably so as not to place ourselves as objects of criticism from those who have elevated this activity into such lofty scientific and expedition type reporting that our efforts would be ridiculed! Have you read the old TCs from the 70s etc? How fun were those trip reports and novice articles? Didn't you read on cavetex how that one Aggie caver's wild and rambling report got slammed? Agree again and, yes, I have read them. They are a lot of fun and I enjoy the irreverent attitude in a lot of the articles. I also see how, even back then, there was complaining about no inputs from anyone and the state of the TSA! I used to get slammed by a few folks about fonts, punctuation, and the usual BS, as the Aggie report was slammed. (I enjoyed the article and told them as much). I think you and others - like maybe our current officers - need to try an attitude adjustment in the minds of Texas cavers old and new. Let people know the TC is open to all who wish to send in something about caving here, or if somewhere else, caving done by Texas cavers wherever! Trip reports, poetry, songs, art etc. Scientific and expedition project work NOT necessary! Just cavers writing about caving. I agree and have made repeated appeals to newbie writers in the past in my various postings on CaveTex that you don't have to be a Nobel laureate in order to send something in. The only thing I get back is the sounds of crickets chirping. Although we all love the amazing and scientific/expedition type articles so beautifully and painstakingly produced, I feel that should not be the only content. Is notice by the NSS more important than the continuation of the TC for the long run? Without material, there is no TC, so perhaps that wonderful caving mag should strive to return to simpler and fun times?:) Maybe that would encourage more input.
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 6:59 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Believe it or not, not ONE grotto is doing newsletters anymore! UTG hasn't done one in years, the DFW's (Oztotl Caver) crashed and burned and they have resorted to a blog on their website which no one posts to, the Maverick Grotto is kaput, the Lubbock Grotto doesn't do one, Bill Bentley did a great job with the PBSS's Hole News, but is it finis, and the Houston Grotto used to have a newsletter when Kevin and Emily McGowan were doing it, but, it also is no more. Ahem, correction. The Greater Houston Grotto (GHG) published it's latest newsletter Dec. 13, 2011. We are still alive! Our editor Ray Hertel is working on the next issue. Kudos to him and to all of our writers. Disclaimer: The following public service announcement is brought to you via a shameless plug by the grotto treasurer to beef up the grotto checking account. We only share the GHG newsletter with grotto members. So send me $10 for your GHG membership ($15 for family) if you want a copy ;) -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
What the hell are y'all talking about? Have you been drinking from Mixon's well or something. If cavers want to see more recreational trip reports etc, then SUBMIT them! Sent from my iPhone On May 17, 2012, at 8:34 AM, freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com wrote: I think that you will find a lot of us unscientific or sport cavers agree with this. I think there should be a sport caving society formed, that go caving just for the fun of it. Kind of like what the Texas Cavers were twenty years ago. Maybe the caving community has gone a little too far toward the scientific side. There are countless scientific journals out there to cover the needs of the scientific community, if anyone cares to read such dry boring drivel. The N.S.S. and the T.S.A. was started by cavers to serve the needs of cavers, not the academic or science communities. Cavers have drifted so far toward the attitude that caving should only be done for expedition or scientific research that the average sport caver is losing interest in the organizations that were originally formed to benefit cavers. Most of us started caving because it is fun, not because we were pursuing a science related career. Now, many cavers look with disdain upon others who go caving just for the fun of it. Maybe we should go back to being cavers, and not feel like we have to justify every trip for training, mapping, or scientific research. Or, we can watch the N.S.S. and Texas Caver die a slow death, and start the National Sport Caving Society (N.S.C.S.). This is just my opinion of course, and probably will not be considered valid because I do not put the letters P.H.D. behind my name. I am anxiously awaiting the backlash from the academic types. Freddie I. Poer Jr. ( The Jr. is part of my name, not a paper title) --- On Thu, 5/17/12, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: From: mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com Subject: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: texascavers@texascavers.com Cc: Mimi Jasek mjca...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 6:59 AM Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few years and whose opinions I highly respect. In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into the past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER. My responses are in BOLD TYPE. Mark, I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers like myself, Jim, and so many others I know or have known are not scientists. We are sport cavers. We cave for the joy and fun and love of this unusual activity, and the beauty we get to see in the pursuit of our passion. We cave, we map, we take pictures. Agreed, as am I and my kids. We go for the fun and camaraderie of it and for the chance to explore a new, alien world. It may not be virgin cave, but, if we haven't been there, it's virgin to us! What we don't do is send in the simple and fun trip reports that our caving would produce, probably so as not to place ourselves as objects of criticism from those who have elevated this activity into such lofty scientific and expedition type reporting that our efforts would be ridiculed! Have you read the old TCs from the 70s etc? How fun were those trip reports and novice articles? Didn't you read on cavetex how that one Aggie caver's wild and rambling report got slammed? Agree again and, yes, I have read them. They are a lot of fun and I enjoy the irreverent attitude in a lot of the articles. I also see how, even back then, there was complaining about no inputs from anyone and the state of the TSA! I used to get slammed by a few folks about fonts, punctuation, and the usual BS, as the Aggie report was slammed. (I enjoyed the article and told them as much). I think you and others - like maybe our current officers - need to try an attitude adjustment in the minds of Texas cavers old and new. Let people know the TC is open to all who wish to send in something about caving here, or if somewhere else, caving done by Texas cavers wherever! Trip reports, poetry, songs, art etc. Scientific and expedition project work NOT necessary! Just cavers writing about caving. I agree and have made repeated appeals to newbie writers in the past in my various postings on CaveTex that you don't have to be a Nobel laureate in order to send something in. The only thing I get back is the sounds of crickets chirping.
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
The Bexar Grotto has a pretty regular newsletter, too. Kudos to Jill Orr for making that happen. Allan Sent with my fat thumbs on my iPhone On May 17, 2012, at 8:51 AM, Lyndon Tiu l...@alumni.sfu.ca wrote: On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 6:59 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Believe it or not, not ONE grotto is doing newsletters anymore! UTG hasn't done one in years, the DFW's (Oztotl Caver) crashed and burned and they have resorted to a blog on their website which no one posts to, the Maverick Grotto is kaput, the Lubbock Grotto doesn't do one, Bill Bentley did a great job with the PBSS's Hole News, but is it finis, and the Houston Grotto used to have a newsletter when Kevin and Emily McGowan were doing it, but, it also is no more. Ahem, correction. The Greater Houston Grotto (GHG) published it's latest newsletter Dec. 13, 2011. We are still alive! Our editor Ray Hertel is working on the next issue. Kudos to him and to all of our writers. Disclaimer: The following public service announcement is brought to you via a shameless plug by the grotto treasurer to beef up the grotto checking account. We only share the GHG newsletter with grotto members. So send me $10 for your GHG membership ($15 for family) if you want a copy ;) -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
That's great news, Lyndon! Thanks for sharing this info. Ray, Jacqui, and any other editors out there: Please be sure to email me a copy of y'all's newsletter. If I find something of interest, I would like to run it in the TC. This is a great way to introduce new cavers to the wider Texas caving community, as well as excellent publicity for your Grotto, newsletter, and activities to the TSA membership. As well as giving me something to fill up The TEXAS CAVER! Not to mention publicity in The NSS NEWS. (Yes, I do send Kim Gentry EVERY issue that is printed). Way to go, Ray! Thanks, Mark -Original Message- From: lyndon@gmail.com [mailto:lyndon@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Lyndon Tiu Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 8:51 AM To: Alman, Mark @ SSG - WSG - EOS; Mimi Jasek Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com; Ray Hertel; GHG Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 6:59 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Believe it or not, not ONE grotto is doing newsletters anymore! UTG hasn't done one in years, the DFW's (Oztotl Caver) crashed and burned and they have resorted to a blog on their website which no one posts to, the Maverick Grotto is kaput, the Lubbock Grotto doesn't do one, Bill Bentley did a great job with the PBSS's Hole News, but is it finis, and the Houston Grotto used to have a newsletter when Kevin and Emily McGowan were doing it, but, it also is no more. Ahem, correction. The Greater Houston Grotto (GHG) published it's latest newsletter Dec. 13, 2011. We are still alive! Our editor Ray Hertel is working on the next issue. Kudos to him and to all of our writers. Disclaimer: The following public service announcement is brought to you via a shameless plug by the grotto treasurer to beef up the grotto checking account. We only share the GHG newsletter with grotto members. So send me $10 for your GHG membership ($15 for family) if you want a copy ;) -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Reading this e-mail exchange and the perceived focus on too many science articles in the TC made me think that I didn’t recall any recent science articles. So I took a quick at the table of contents for the last nine issues through the start of 2010 and found a total of 60 articles listed. I found an abundance of reports on surveys, projects, and generally lots of “fun” (non-project/non-survey/non-sciency) caving Texas cavers are doing in Texas, with a small number of reports on caving in Mexico. I found reports on TCRs, TSA conventions, equipment reports, and news I expect most cavers would be interested in. I only found one article that could be classified as “science,” a nice 1-page report by Jerry Atkinson and Butch Fralia on bad air in Texas caves. Considering how many Texas caves have bad air, I’d also expect this would be of interest to most cavers who generally aren’t interested in science articles. So for at least for the past two years, the TC has had a nice mix of articles with no bias toward science. As I also skimmed through these articles, I was impressed with the great quality of caving, maps, reporting, and information provided by Texas cavers, and Mark’s skills at coaxing the articles and photos and providing them to us in a beautiful format. It has always been necessary for TC editors to arm-twist articles from cavers. And there are always cycles where minimal twisting is needed and times like now where tons of pressure produces little result. I deeply appreciate Mark’s efforts and those of past editors. It is not an easy job. In hopes that it helps Mark at least a little, here are two thoughts that might get some of you to send in material. 1) If you are organizing a trip or project, the cave owner or manager may want a trip report. Sometimes they don’t ask for one, but to maintain access to the cave many cavers will often send an occasional trip report or summary of trips. If you do this, and the owner doesn’t object, send a copy of the TC. 2) If you a new caver and think us old timers aren’t interested in what you’re doing, you’re wrong. When I started caving, I had a tough time getting on trips and the attention of some of the big-time cavers. I soon discovered that after I started sending reports to the TC, I was suddenly welcomed by many cavers and onto trips and projects. I’ve seen this happen over and over with many other cavers since then. Publishing articles in the TC shows people what you’re doing, that you in fact know what you’re doing as a skilled and responsible caver, and increases their confidence and desire to spend time with you and to invite you on trips. It doesn’t happen overnight, but it does start to happen after a few articles. Again, my thanks to Mark for his excellent work on the TC. George From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 05:59 To: texascavers@texascavers.com Cc: Mimi Jasek Subject: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few years and whose opinions I highly respect. In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into the past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER. My responses are in BOLD TYPE. Mark, I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers like myself, Jim, and so many others I know or have known are not scientists. We are sport cavers. We cave for the joy and fun and love of this unusual activity, and the beauty we get to see in the pursuit of our passion. We cave, we map, we take pictures. Agreed, as am I and my kids. We go for the fun and camaraderie of it and for the chance to explore a new, alien world. It may not be virgin cave, but, if we haven't been there, it's virgin to us! What we don't do is send in the simple and fun trip reports that our caving would produce, probably so as not to place ourselves as objects of criticism from those who have elevated this activity into such lofty scientific and expedition type reporting that our efforts would be ridiculed! Have you read the old TCs from the 70s etc? How fun were those trip reports and novice articles? Didn't you read on cavetex how that one Aggie caver's wild and rambling report got slammed? Agree again and, yes, I have read them. They are a lot of fun and I enjoy the irreverent attitude in a lot of the articles. I also see how, even back then, there was complaining about no inputs from anyone and the state of the TSA! I used to
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Thanks, George, for confirming my similar suspicions. I've never thought of the Texas Caver or even the NSS News as particularly science oriented. (The NSS has the Journal of Cave and Karst Studies for that.) Perhaps instead of science the perception is that publications are too heavily biased toward expedition and project caving. I certainly find those articles most interesting because that's the kind of caving I've been doing for over 40 years, but I generally read every article in the Texas Caver, even if it is about a newbie trip to Airman's. I also enjoy keeping up with activities like TSA Conventions and TCR, which I am too far away too attend. So, I join the chorus of those encouraging everyone to write about their trips, even if they are sport trips with no new exploration or science. I also agree with Ben Schwartz about almost all caving being fun, whether it's science, mapping, digging, whatever. We wouldn't do it otherwise. Expedition and project reports also generally mention the great camaraderie and fun times had around the campfire, hiking to the caves, etc. I've even been on cave rescues (all successful, fortunately) that were fun. So write about your trips, even if nothing new is discovered. Tell us how much fun you had, and let us share in it. Keep the faith, Mark, and keep up the great work as editor! Mark At 11:06 AM 5/17/2012, George Veni wrote: Reading this e-mail exchange and the perceived focus on too many science articles in the TC made me think that I didn't recall any recent science articles. So I took a quick at the table of contents for the last nine issues through the start of 2010 and found a total of 60 articles listed. I found an abundance of reports on surveys, projects, and generally lots of fun (non-project/non-survey/non-sciency) caving Texas cavers are doing in Texas, with a small number of reports on caving in Mexico. I found reports on TCRs, TSA conventions, equipment reports, and news I expect most cavers would be interested in. I only found one article that could be classified as science, a nice 1-page report by Jerry Atkinson and Butch Fralia on bad air in Texas caves. Considering how many Texas caves have bad air, I'd also expect this would be of interest to most cavers who generally aren't interested in science articles. Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Now if all who responded to these e-mails would send in just one trip report,
Mark might just have the materials he needs to work with.
--- On Thu, 5/17/12, Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net wrote:
From: Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com
Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 11:29 AM
Don't give up..
Bill
- Original Message -
From: freddie poer
To: mark.al...@l-3com.com
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
I think that you will find a lot of us unscientific or sport cavers agree
with this. I think there should be a sport caving society formed, that go
caving just for the fun of it. Kind of like what the Texas Cavers were twenty
years ago. Maybe the caving community has gone a little too far toward the
scientific side. There are countless scientific journals out there to cover the
needs of the scientific community, if anyone cares to read such dry boring
drivel. The N.S.S. and the T.S.A. was started by cavers to serve the needs of
cavers, not the academic or science communities. Cavers have drifted so far
toward the attitude that caving should only be done for expedition or
scientific research that the average sport caver is losing interest in the
organizations that were originally formed to benefit cavers. Most of us started
caving because it is fun, not because we were pursuing a science related
career. Now, many cavers look with disdain
upon others who go caving just for the fun of it. Maybe we should go back to
being cavers, and not feel like we have to justify every trip for training,
mapping, or scientific research. Or, we can watch the N.S.S. and Texas Caver
die a slow death, and start the National Sport Caving Society (N.S.C.S.). This
is just my opinion of course, and probably will not be considered valid because
I do not put the letters P.H.D. behind my name. I am anxiously awaiting the
backlash from the academic types.
Freddie I. Poer Jr. ( The Jr. is part of my name, not a paper title)
--- On Thu, 5/17/12, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
From: mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: Mimi Jasek mjca...@gmail.com
Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 6:59 AM
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Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and
distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few
years and whose opinions I highly respect.
In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by
crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi
Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into the
past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER.
My responses are in BOLD TYPE.
Mark,
I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically
oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers like
myself, Jim, and so many others I know or have known are not scientists.
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
I’m thinking that it’s very selfish of individual Grottos to produce their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver. Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a Grotto newsletter serve? My 2p. -Stefan From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:36 PM To: Bill Bentley Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion Now if all who responded to these e-mails would send in just one trip report, Mark might just have the materials he needs to work with. --- On Thu, 5/17/12, Bill Bentley ca...@caver.netmailto:ca...@caver.net wrote: From: Bill Bentley ca...@caver.netmailto:ca...@caver.net Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.commailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 11:29 AM Don't give up.. Bill -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Who says the two have to be mutually exclusive? I enjoy Speleospace (the Houston Grotto newsletter) and The Texas Caver. Our grotto newsletters feature meeting minutes, etc that would be an absolute bore to anyone not affiliated with the Houston Grotto. We have the same problems as Mark, tho...no one wants to contribute articles! So it's not like people are too busy writing articles for their grotto newsletter to contribute articles to TSA On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Stefan Creaser stefan.crea...@arm.comwrote: I’m thinking that it’s very selfish of individual Grottos to produce their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver. ** ** Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a Grotto newsletter serve? ** ** My 2p. ** ** -Stefan ** ** ** ** ** ** *From:* freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] *Sent:* Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:36 PM *To:* Bill Bentley *Cc:* texascavers@texascavers.com *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion ** ** Now if all who responded to these e-mails would send in just one trip report, Mark might just have the materials he needs to work with. --- On *Thu, 5/17/12, Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net* wrote: From: Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 11:29 AM Don't give up.. Bill ** ** -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Sorry The Maverick Grotto flopped, there were a lot of articles that started there and ended up in The Caver. Same thing with the DFW Oztotl years ago. I can't do the things I did back then so don't get out to write articles. Surely there's someone out there with an ego that likes to see their name in print. Butch -Original Message- From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 4:08 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion I agree with Mallory. In the past, grotto newsletters were usually very local in scope and not of general interest to cavers elsewhere. There might also be reports on things like vertical practice or a survey class. When there were enough (were there ever really enough?) articles on original exploration or project and expedition reports in Texas Caver, even sport trip reports could be safely relegated to grotto newsletters. However in the present situation with few articles available, it might make sense to submit all trip reports to both the local newsletter and Texas Caver. Mark At 03:55 PM 5/17/2012, Mallory Mayeux wrote: Who says the two have to be mutually exclusive? I enjoy Speleospace (the Houston Grotto newsletter) and The Texas Caver. Our grotto newsletters feature meeting minutes, etc that would be an absolute bore to anyone not affiliated with the Houston Grotto. We have the same problems as Mark, tho...no one wants to contribute articles! So it's not like people are too busy writing articles for their grotto newsletter to contribute articles to TSA On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Stefan Creaser stefan.crea...@arm.com wrote: I'm thinking that it's very selfish of individual Grottos to produce their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver. Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a Grotto newsletter serve? My 2p. -Stefan Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
This post is interesting and definitely thought-provoking--thank you. I'm sure there will be discussion in response to this post. Regarding the list of apparently defunct grotto newsletters I wanted to make a correction and a comment: Correction (and not to be critical, but to recognize all those who have worked their butts off for PBSS): We have had many editors over the years (some before my time as a caver so I might miss one or two). In addition to Bill Bentley, we oweTony Grieco, Jim Nance, Don Carlton, Ken Kamon, the Coffins, Jan Anderle, Walter Feaster (for years and years), Michael Anderson, the DiTullios, and Kel Thomas. Since PBSS's start in 1983, Spylunk, which became the Hole News, has disappeared for a year or more at a time. It always returns. Jacqui Thomas Secretary, PBSS On May 17, 2012, at 6:59 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few years and whose opinions I highly respect. In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into the past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER. My responses are in BOLD TYPE. Mark, I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers like myself, Jim, and so many others I know or have known are not scientists. We are sport cavers. We cave for the joy and fun and love of this unusual activity, and the beauty we get to see in the pursuit of our passion. We cave, we map, we take pictures. Agreed, as am I and my kids. We go for the fun and camaraderie of it and for the chance to explore a new, alien world. It may not be virgin cave, but, if we haven't been there, it's virgin to us! What we don't do is send in the simple and fun trip reports that our caving would produce, probably so as not to place ourselves as objects of criticism from those who have elevated this activity into such lofty scientific and expedition type reporting that our efforts would be ridiculed! Have you read the old TCs from the 70s etc? How fun were those trip reports and novice articles? Didn't you read on cavetex how that one Aggie caver's wild and rambling report got slammed? Agree again and, yes, I have read them. They are a lot of fun and I enjoy the irreverent attitude in a lot of the articles. I also see how, even back then, there was complaining about no inputs from anyone and the state of the TSA! I used to get slammed by a few folks about fonts, punctuation, and the usual BS, as the Aggie report was slammed. (I enjoyed the article and told them as much). I think you and others - like maybe our current officers - need to try an attitude adjustment in the minds of Texas cavers old and new. Let people know the TC is open to all who wish to send in something about caving here, or if somewhere else, caving done by Texas cavers wherever! Trip reports, poetry, songs, art etc. Scientific and expedition project work NOT necessary! Just cavers writing about caving. I agree and have made repeated appeals to newbie writers in the past in my various postings on CaveTex that you don't have to be a Nobel laureate in order to send something in. The only thing I get back is the sounds of crickets chirping. Although we all love the amazing and scientific/expedition type articles so beautifully and painstakingly produced, I feel that should not be the only content. Is notice by the NSS more important than the continuation of the TC for the long run? Without material, there is no TC, so perhaps that wonderful caving mag should strive to return to simpler and fun times?:) Maybe that would encourage more input. Wholeheartedly agree again, Mimi. If people don't care enough to send material in, I don't care enough to be the Editor after this next issue of the TC. Think about what I've said here. Our world is so electronic now. People have Internet, cable tv, Facebook, etc. It is so easy to produce quality articles with all the tools we have at our disposal now. But people are busy living in our fast paced world, and will not take time to contribute to something if made to feel inferior or unappreciated. They have better ways to use their time for their own personal enjoyment and fulfillment. Wow, we agree again. It’s the dumbing down, ADD world that the digital age has wrought. No one reads papers, reads books, or writes or reads anything of heft and substance. Idiocracy is becoming the new norm (look it up in Wikipedia) and people would rather post some nonsensical post about their need for coffee
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
I think that you will find a lot of us unscientific or sport cavers agree with this. I think there should be a sport caving society formed, that go caving just for the fun of it. Kind of like what the Texas Cavers were twenty years ago. Maybe the caving community has gone a little too far toward the scientific side. There are countless scientific journals out there to cover the needs of the scientific community, if anyone cares to read such dry boring drivel. The N.S.S. and the T.S.A. was started by cavers to serve the needs of cavers, not the academic or science communities. Cavers have drifted so far toward the attitude that caving should only be done for expedition or scientific research that the average sport caver is losing interest in the organizations that were originally formed to benefit cavers. Most of us started caving because it is fun, not because we were pursuing a science related career. Now, many cavers look with disdain upon others who go caving just for the fun of it. Maybe we should go back to being cavers, and not feel like we have to justify every trip for training, mapping, or scientific research. Or, we can watch the N.S.S. and Texas Caver die a slow death, and start the National Sport Caving Society (N.S.C.S.). This is just my opinion of course, and probably will not be considered valid because I do not put the letters P.H.D. behind my name. I am anxiously awaiting the backlash from the academic types. Freddie I. Poer Jr. ( The Jr. is part of my name, not a paper title) --- On Thu, 5/17/12, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: From: mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com Subject: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: texascavers@texascavers.com Cc: Mimi Jasek mjca...@gmail.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 6:59 AM Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few years and whose opinions I highly respect. In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into the past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER. My responses are in BOLD TYPE. Mark, I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers like myself, Jim, and so many others I know or have known are not scientists. We are sport cavers. We cave for the joy and fun and love of this unusual activity, and the beauty we get to see in the pursuit of our passion. We cave, we map, we take pictures. Agreed, as am I and my kids. We go for the fun and camaraderie of it and for the chance to explore a new, alien world. It may not be virgin cave, but, if we haven't been there, it's virgin to us! What we don't do is send in the simple and fun trip reports that our caving would produce, probably so as not to place ourselves as objects of criticism from those who have elevated this activity into such lofty scientific and expedition type reporting that our efforts would be ridiculed! Have you read the old TCs from the 70s etc? How fun were those trip reports and novice articles? Didn't you read on cavetex how that one Aggie caver's wild and rambling report got slammed? Agree again and, yes, I have read them. They are a lot of fun and I enjoy the irreverent attitude in a lot of the articles. I also see how, even back then, there was complaining about no inputs from anyone and the state of the TSA! I used to get slammed by a few folks about fonts, punctuation, and the usual BS, as the Aggie report was slammed. (I enjoyed the article and told them as much). I think you and others - like maybe our current officers - need to try an attitude adjustment in the minds of Texas cavers old and new. Let people know the TC is open to all who wish to send in something about caving here, or if somewhere else, caving done by Texas cavers wherever! Trip reports, poetry, songs, art etc. Scientific and expedition project work NOT necessary! Just cavers writing about caving. I agree and have made repeated appeals to newbie writers in the past in my various postings on CaveTex that you don't have to be a Nobel laureate in order to send something in. The only thing I get back is the sounds of crickets chirping. Although we all love the amazing and scientific/expedition type articles so beautifully and painstakingly produced, I feel that should not be the only content. Is notice by the NSS more important than the continuation of the TC for the long run? Without material, there is no TC, so perhaps that wonderful caving mag should strive to return to simpler and fun times?:) Maybe
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 6:59 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Believe it or not, not ONE grotto is doing newsletters anymore! UTG hasn't done one in years, the DFW's (Oztotl Caver) crashed and burned and they have resorted to a blog on their website which no one posts to, the Maverick Grotto is kaput, the Lubbock Grotto doesn't do one, Bill Bentley did a great job with the PBSS's Hole News, but is it finis, and the Houston Grotto used to have a newsletter when Kevin and Emily McGowan were doing it, but, it also is no more. Ahem, correction. The Greater Houston Grotto (GHG) published it's latest newsletter Dec. 13, 2011. We are still alive! Our editor Ray Hertel is working on the next issue. Kudos to him and to all of our writers. Disclaimer: The following public service announcement is brought to you via a shameless plug by the grotto treasurer to beef up the grotto checking account. We only share the GHG newsletter with grotto members. So send me $10 for your GHG membership ($15 for family) if you want a copy ;) -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
What the hell are y'all talking about? Have you been drinking from Mixon's well or something. If cavers want to see more recreational trip reports etc, then SUBMIT them! Sent from my iPhone On May 17, 2012, at 8:34 AM, freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com wrote: I think that you will find a lot of us unscientific or sport cavers agree with this. I think there should be a sport caving society formed, that go caving just for the fun of it. Kind of like what the Texas Cavers were twenty years ago. Maybe the caving community has gone a little too far toward the scientific side. There are countless scientific journals out there to cover the needs of the scientific community, if anyone cares to read such dry boring drivel. The N.S.S. and the T.S.A. was started by cavers to serve the needs of cavers, not the academic or science communities. Cavers have drifted so far toward the attitude that caving should only be done for expedition or scientific research that the average sport caver is losing interest in the organizations that were originally formed to benefit cavers. Most of us started caving because it is fun, not because we were pursuing a science related career. Now, many cavers look with disdain upon others who go caving just for the fun of it. Maybe we should go back to being cavers, and not feel like we have to justify every trip for training, mapping, or scientific research. Or, we can watch the N.S.S. and Texas Caver die a slow death, and start the National Sport Caving Society (N.S.C.S.). This is just my opinion of course, and probably will not be considered valid because I do not put the letters P.H.D. behind my name. I am anxiously awaiting the backlash from the academic types. Freddie I. Poer Jr. ( The Jr. is part of my name, not a paper title) --- On Thu, 5/17/12, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: From: mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com Subject: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: texascavers@texascavers.com Cc: Mimi Jasek mjca...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 6:59 AM Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few years and whose opinions I highly respect. In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into the past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER. My responses are in BOLD TYPE. Mark, I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers like myself, Jim, and so many others I know or have known are not scientists. We are sport cavers. We cave for the joy and fun and love of this unusual activity, and the beauty we get to see in the pursuit of our passion. We cave, we map, we take pictures. Agreed, as am I and my kids. We go for the fun and camaraderie of it and for the chance to explore a new, alien world. It may not be virgin cave, but, if we haven't been there, it's virgin to us! What we don't do is send in the simple and fun trip reports that our caving would produce, probably so as not to place ourselves as objects of criticism from those who have elevated this activity into such lofty scientific and expedition type reporting that our efforts would be ridiculed! Have you read the old TCs from the 70s etc? How fun were those trip reports and novice articles? Didn't you read on cavetex how that one Aggie caver's wild and rambling report got slammed? Agree again and, yes, I have read them. They are a lot of fun and I enjoy the irreverent attitude in a lot of the articles. I also see how, even back then, there was complaining about no inputs from anyone and the state of the TSA! I used to get slammed by a few folks about fonts, punctuation, and the usual BS, as the Aggie report was slammed. (I enjoyed the article and told them as much). I think you and others - like maybe our current officers - need to try an attitude adjustment in the minds of Texas cavers old and new. Let people know the TC is open to all who wish to send in something about caving here, or if somewhere else, caving done by Texas cavers wherever! Trip reports, poetry, songs, art etc. Scientific and expedition project work NOT necessary! Just cavers writing about caving. I agree and have made repeated appeals to newbie writers in the past in my various postings on CaveTex that you don't have to be a Nobel laureate in order to send something in. The only thing I get back is the sounds of crickets chirping.
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
The Bexar Grotto has a pretty regular newsletter, too. Kudos to Jill Orr for making that happen. Allan Sent with my fat thumbs on my iPhone On May 17, 2012, at 8:51 AM, Lyndon Tiu l...@alumni.sfu.ca wrote: On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 6:59 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Believe it or not, not ONE grotto is doing newsletters anymore! UTG hasn't done one in years, the DFW's (Oztotl Caver) crashed and burned and they have resorted to a blog on their website which no one posts to, the Maverick Grotto is kaput, the Lubbock Grotto doesn't do one, Bill Bentley did a great job with the PBSS's Hole News, but is it finis, and the Houston Grotto used to have a newsletter when Kevin and Emily McGowan were doing it, but, it also is no more. Ahem, correction. The Greater Houston Grotto (GHG) published it's latest newsletter Dec. 13, 2011. We are still alive! Our editor Ray Hertel is working on the next issue. Kudos to him and to all of our writers. Disclaimer: The following public service announcement is brought to you via a shameless plug by the grotto treasurer to beef up the grotto checking account. We only share the GHG newsletter with grotto members. So send me $10 for your GHG membership ($15 for family) if you want a copy ;) -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
That's great news, Lyndon! Thanks for sharing this info. Ray, Jacqui, and any other editors out there: Please be sure to email me a copy of y'all's newsletter. If I find something of interest, I would like to run it in the TC. This is a great way to introduce new cavers to the wider Texas caving community, as well as excellent publicity for your Grotto, newsletter, and activities to the TSA membership. As well as giving me something to fill up The TEXAS CAVER! Not to mention publicity in The NSS NEWS. (Yes, I do send Kim Gentry EVERY issue that is printed). Way to go, Ray! Thanks, Mark -Original Message- From: lyndon@gmail.com [mailto:lyndon@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Lyndon Tiu Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 8:51 AM To: Alman, Mark @ SSG - WSG - EOS; Mimi Jasek Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com; Ray Hertel; GHG Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 6:59 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Believe it or not, not ONE grotto is doing newsletters anymore! UTG hasn't done one in years, the DFW's (Oztotl Caver) crashed and burned and they have resorted to a blog on their website which no one posts to, the Maverick Grotto is kaput, the Lubbock Grotto doesn't do one, Bill Bentley did a great job with the PBSS's Hole News, but is it finis, and the Houston Grotto used to have a newsletter when Kevin and Emily McGowan were doing it, but, it also is no more. Ahem, correction. The Greater Houston Grotto (GHG) published it's latest newsletter Dec. 13, 2011. We are still alive! Our editor Ray Hertel is working on the next issue. Kudos to him and to all of our writers. Disclaimer: The following public service announcement is brought to you via a shameless plug by the grotto treasurer to beef up the grotto checking account. We only share the GHG newsletter with grotto members. So send me $10 for your GHG membership ($15 for family) if you want a copy ;) -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Reading this e-mail exchange and the perceived focus on too many science articles in the TC made me think that I didn’t recall any recent science articles. So I took a quick at the table of contents for the last nine issues through the start of 2010 and found a total of 60 articles listed. I found an abundance of reports on surveys, projects, and generally lots of “fun” (non-project/non-survey/non-sciency) caving Texas cavers are doing in Texas, with a small number of reports on caving in Mexico. I found reports on TCRs, TSA conventions, equipment reports, and news I expect most cavers would be interested in. I only found one article that could be classified as “science,” a nice 1-page report by Jerry Atkinson and Butch Fralia on bad air in Texas caves. Considering how many Texas caves have bad air, I’d also expect this would be of interest to most cavers who generally aren’t interested in science articles. So for at least for the past two years, the TC has had a nice mix of articles with no bias toward science. As I also skimmed through these articles, I was impressed with the great quality of caving, maps, reporting, and information provided by Texas cavers, and Mark’s skills at coaxing the articles and photos and providing them to us in a beautiful format. It has always been necessary for TC editors to arm-twist articles from cavers. And there are always cycles where minimal twisting is needed and times like now where tons of pressure produces little result. I deeply appreciate Mark’s efforts and those of past editors. It is not an easy job. In hopes that it helps Mark at least a little, here are two thoughts that might get some of you to send in material. 1) If you are organizing a trip or project, the cave owner or manager may want a trip report. Sometimes they don’t ask for one, but to maintain access to the cave many cavers will often send an occasional trip report or summary of trips. If you do this, and the owner doesn’t object, send a copy of the TC. 2) If you a new caver and think us old timers aren’t interested in what you’re doing, you’re wrong. When I started caving, I had a tough time getting on trips and the attention of some of the big-time cavers. I soon discovered that after I started sending reports to the TC, I was suddenly welcomed by many cavers and onto trips and projects. I’ve seen this happen over and over with many other cavers since then. Publishing articles in the TC shows people what you’re doing, that you in fact know what you’re doing as a skilled and responsible caver, and increases their confidence and desire to spend time with you and to invite you on trips. It doesn’t happen overnight, but it does start to happen after a few articles. Again, my thanks to Mark for his excellent work on the TC. George From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 05:59 To: texascavers@texascavers.com Cc: Mimi Jasek Subject: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few years and whose opinions I highly respect. In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into the past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER. My responses are in BOLD TYPE. Mark, I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers like myself, Jim, and so many others I know or have known are not scientists. We are sport cavers. We cave for the joy and fun and love of this unusual activity, and the beauty we get to see in the pursuit of our passion. We cave, we map, we take pictures. Agreed, as am I and my kids. We go for the fun and camaraderie of it and for the chance to explore a new, alien world. It may not be virgin cave, but, if we haven't been there, it's virgin to us! What we don't do is send in the simple and fun trip reports that our caving would produce, probably so as not to place ourselves as objects of criticism from those who have elevated this activity into such lofty scientific and expedition type reporting that our efforts would be ridiculed! Have you read the old TCs from the 70s etc? How fun were those trip reports and novice articles? Didn't you read on cavetex how that one Aggie caver's wild and rambling report got slammed? Agree again and, yes, I have read them. They are a lot of fun and I enjoy the irreverent attitude in a lot of the articles. I also see how, even back then, there was complaining about no inputs from anyone and the state of the TSA! I used to
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Great to hear, Allan, and kudos to Jill. Glad to see that there are a few grotto newsletters still in existence. Now, if y'all would be so kind to copy me when a new one comes out... Thanks, Mark -Original Message- From: Allan B. Cobb [mailto:a...@oztotl.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 9:54 AM To: Lyndon Tiu Cc: Alman, Mark @ SSG - WSG - EOS; Mimi Jasek; texascavers@texascavers.com; Ray Hertel; GHG Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion The Bexar Grotto has a pretty regular newsletter, too. Kudos to Jill Orr for making that happen. Allan Sent with my fat thumbs on my iPhone On May 17, 2012, at 8:51 AM, Lyndon Tiu l...@alumni.sfu.ca wrote: On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 6:59 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Believe it or not, not ONE grotto is doing newsletters anymore! UTG hasn't done one in years, the DFW's (Oztotl Caver) crashed and burned and they have resorted to a blog on their website which no one posts to, the Maverick Grotto is kaput, the Lubbock Grotto doesn't do one, Bill Bentley did a great job with the PBSS's Hole News, but is it finis, and the Houston Grotto used to have a newsletter when Kevin and Emily McGowan were doing it, but, it also is no more. Ahem, correction. The Greater Houston Grotto (GHG) published it's latest newsletter Dec. 13, 2011. We are still alive! Our editor Ray Hertel is working on the next issue. Kudos to him and to all of our writers. Disclaimer: The following public service announcement is brought to you via a shameless plug by the grotto treasurer to beef up the grotto checking account. We only share the GHG newsletter with grotto members. So send me $10 for your GHG membership ($15 for family) if you want a copy ;) -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Thanks, George, for confirming my similar suspicions. I've never thought of the Texas Caver or even the NSS News as particularly science oriented. (The NSS has the Journal of Cave and Karst Studies for that.) Perhaps instead of science the perception is that publications are too heavily biased toward expedition and project caving. I certainly find those articles most interesting because that's the kind of caving I've been doing for over 40 years, but I generally read every article in the Texas Caver, even if it is about a newbie trip to Airman's. I also enjoy keeping up with activities like TSA Conventions and TCR, which I am too far away too attend. So, I join the chorus of those encouraging everyone to write about their trips, even if they are sport trips with no new exploration or science. I also agree with Ben Schwartz about almost all caving being fun, whether it's science, mapping, digging, whatever. We wouldn't do it otherwise. Expedition and project reports also generally mention the great camaraderie and fun times had around the campfire, hiking to the caves, etc. I've even been on cave rescues (all successful, fortunately) that were fun. So write about your trips, even if nothing new is discovered. Tell us how much fun you had, and let us share in it. Keep the faith, Mark, and keep up the great work as editor! Mark At 11:06 AM 5/17/2012, George Veni wrote: Reading this e-mail exchange and the perceived focus on too many science articles in the TC made me think that I didn't recall any recent science articles. So I took a quick at the table of contents for the last nine issues through the start of 2010 and found a total of 60 articles listed. I found an abundance of reports on surveys, projects, and generally lots of fun (non-project/non-survey/non-sciency) caving Texas cavers are doing in Texas, with a small number of reports on caving in Mexico. I found reports on TCRs, TSA conventions, equipment reports, and news I expect most cavers would be interested in. I only found one article that could be classified as science, a nice 1-page report by Jerry Atkinson and Butch Fralia on bad air in Texas caves. Considering how many Texas caves have bad air, I'd also expect this would be of interest to most cavers who generally aren't interested in science articles. Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Now if all who responded to these e-mails would send in just one trip report,
Mark might just have the materials he needs to work with.
--- On Thu, 5/17/12, Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net wrote:
From: Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 11:29 AM
Don't give up..
Bill
- Original Message -
From: freddie poer
To: mark.al...@l-3com.com
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
I think that you will find a lot of us unscientific or sport cavers agree
with this. I think there should be a sport caving society formed, that go
caving just for the fun of it. Kind of like what the Texas Cavers were twenty
years ago. Maybe the caving community has gone a little too far toward the
scientific side. There are countless scientific journals out there to cover the
needs of the scientific community, if anyone cares to read such dry boring
drivel. The N.S.S. and the T.S.A. was started by cavers to serve the needs of
cavers, not the academic or science communities. Cavers have drifted so far
toward the attitude that caving should only be done for expedition or
scientific research that the average sport caver is losing interest in the
organizations that were originally formed to benefit cavers. Most of us started
caving because it is fun, not because we were pursuing a science related
career. Now, many cavers look with disdain
upon others who go caving just for the fun of it. Maybe we should go back to
being cavers, and not feel like we have to justify every trip for training,
mapping, or scientific research. Or, we can watch the N.S.S. and Texas Caver
die a slow death, and start the National Sport Caving Society (N.S.C.S.). This
is just my opinion of course, and probably will not be considered valid because
I do not put the letters P.H.D. behind my name. I am anxiously awaiting the
backlash from the academic types.
Freddie I. Poer Jr. ( The Jr. is part of my name, not a paper title)
--- On Thu, 5/17/12, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
From: mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: Mimi Jasek mjca...@gmail.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 6:59 AM
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Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and
distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few
years and whose opinions I highly respect.
In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by
crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi
Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into the
past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER.
My responses are in BOLD TYPE.
Mark,
I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically
oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
I’m thinking that it’s very selfish of individual Grottos to produce their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver. Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a Grotto newsletter serve? My 2p. -Stefan From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:36 PM To: Bill Bentley Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion Now if all who responded to these e-mails would send in just one trip report, Mark might just have the materials he needs to work with. --- On Thu, 5/17/12, Bill Bentley ca...@caver.netmailto:ca...@caver.net wrote: From: Bill Bentley ca...@caver.netmailto:ca...@caver.net Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.commailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 11:29 AM Don't give up.. Bill -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Who says the two have to be mutually exclusive? I enjoy Speleospace (the Houston Grotto newsletter) and The Texas Caver. Our grotto newsletters feature meeting minutes, etc that would be an absolute bore to anyone not affiliated with the Houston Grotto. We have the same problems as Mark, tho...no one wants to contribute articles! So it's not like people are too busy writing articles for their grotto newsletter to contribute articles to TSA On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Stefan Creaser stefan.crea...@arm.comwrote: I’m thinking that it’s very selfish of individual Grottos to produce their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver. ** ** Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a Grotto newsletter serve? ** ** My 2p. ** ** -Stefan ** ** ** ** ** ** *From:* freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] *Sent:* Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:36 PM *To:* Bill Bentley *Cc:* texascavers@texascavers.com *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion ** ** Now if all who responded to these e-mails would send in just one trip report, Mark might just have the materials he needs to work with. --- On *Thu, 5/17/12, Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net* wrote: From: Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 11:29 AM Don't give up.. Bill ** ** -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
I agree with Mallory. In the past, grotto newsletters were usually very local in scope and not of general interest to cavers elsewhere. There might also be reports on things like vertical practice or a survey class. When there were enough (were there ever really enough?) articles on original exploration or project and expedition reports in Texas Caver, even sport trip reports could be safely relegated to grotto newsletters. However in the present situation with few articles available, it might make sense to submit all trip reports to both the local newsletter and Texas Caver. Mark At 03:55 PM 5/17/2012, Mallory Mayeux wrote: Who says the two have to be mutually exclusive? I enjoy Speleospace (the Houston Grotto newsletter) and The Texas Caver. Our grotto newsletters feature meeting minutes, etc that would be an absolute bore to anyone not affiliated with the Houston Grotto. We have the same problems as Mark, tho...no one wants to contribute articles! So it's not like people are too busy writing articles for their grotto newsletter to contribute articles to TSA On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Stefan Creaser stefan.crea...@arm.com wrote: I'm thinking that it's very selfish of individual Grottos to produce their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver. Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a Grotto newsletter serve? My 2p. -Stefan Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Sorry The Maverick Grotto flopped, there were a lot of articles that started there and ended up in The Caver. Same thing with the DFW Oztotl years ago. I can't do the things I did back then so don't get out to write articles. Surely there's someone out there with an ego that likes to see their name in print. Butch -Original Message- From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 4:08 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion I agree with Mallory. In the past, grotto newsletters were usually very local in scope and not of general interest to cavers elsewhere. There might also be reports on things like vertical practice or a survey class. When there were enough (were there ever really enough?) articles on original exploration or project and expedition reports in Texas Caver, even sport trip reports could be safely relegated to grotto newsletters. However in the present situation with few articles available, it might make sense to submit all trip reports to both the local newsletter and Texas Caver. Mark At 03:55 PM 5/17/2012, Mallory Mayeux wrote: Who says the two have to be mutually exclusive? I enjoy Speleospace (the Houston Grotto newsletter) and The Texas Caver. Our grotto newsletters feature meeting minutes, etc that would be an absolute bore to anyone not affiliated with the Houston Grotto. We have the same problems as Mark, tho...no one wants to contribute articles! So it's not like people are too busy writing articles for their grotto newsletter to contribute articles to TSA On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Stefan Creaser stefan.crea...@arm.com wrote: I'm thinking that it's very selfish of individual Grottos to produce their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver. Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a Grotto newsletter serve? My 2p. -Stefan Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
This post is interesting and definitely thought-provoking--thank you. I'm sure there will be discussion in response to this post. Regarding the list of apparently defunct grotto newsletters I wanted to make a correction and a comment: Correction (and not to be critical, but to recognize all those who have worked their butts off for PBSS): We have had many editors over the years (some before my time as a caver so I might miss one or two). In addition to Bill Bentley, we oweTony Grieco, Jim Nance, Don Carlton, Ken Kamon, the Coffins, Jan Anderle, Walter Feaster (for years and years), Michael Anderson, the DiTullios, and Kel Thomas. Since PBSS's start in 1983, Spylunk, which became the Hole News, has disappeared for a year or more at a time. It always returns. Jacqui Thomas Secretary, PBSS On May 17, 2012, at 6:59 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few years and whose opinions I highly respect. In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into the past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER. My responses are in BOLD TYPE. Mark, I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers like myself, Jim, and so many others I know or have known are not scientists. We are sport cavers. We cave for the joy and fun and love of this unusual activity, and the beauty we get to see in the pursuit of our passion. We cave, we map, we take pictures. Agreed, as am I and my kids. We go for the fun and camaraderie of it and for the chance to explore a new, alien world. It may not be virgin cave, but, if we haven't been there, it's virgin to us! What we don't do is send in the simple and fun trip reports that our caving would produce, probably so as not to place ourselves as objects of criticism from those who have elevated this activity into such lofty scientific and expedition type reporting that our efforts would be ridiculed! Have you read the old TCs from the 70s etc? How fun were those trip reports and novice articles? Didn't you read on cavetex how that one Aggie caver's wild and rambling report got slammed? Agree again and, yes, I have read them. They are a lot of fun and I enjoy the irreverent attitude in a lot of the articles. I also see how, even back then, there was complaining about no inputs from anyone and the state of the TSA! I used to get slammed by a few folks about fonts, punctuation, and the usual BS, as the Aggie report was slammed. (I enjoyed the article and told them as much). I think you and others - like maybe our current officers - need to try an attitude adjustment in the minds of Texas cavers old and new. Let people know the TC is open to all who wish to send in something about caving here, or if somewhere else, caving done by Texas cavers wherever! Trip reports, poetry, songs, art etc. Scientific and expedition project work NOT necessary! Just cavers writing about caving. I agree and have made repeated appeals to newbie writers in the past in my various postings on CaveTex that you don't have to be a Nobel laureate in order to send something in. The only thing I get back is the sounds of crickets chirping. Although we all love the amazing and scientific/expedition type articles so beautifully and painstakingly produced, I feel that should not be the only content. Is notice by the NSS more important than the continuation of the TC for the long run? Without material, there is no TC, so perhaps that wonderful caving mag should strive to return to simpler and fun times?:) Maybe that would encourage more input. Wholeheartedly agree again, Mimi. If people don't care enough to send material in, I don't care enough to be the Editor after this next issue of the TC. Think about what I've said here. Our world is so electronic now. People have Internet, cable tv, Facebook, etc. It is so easy to produce quality articles with all the tools we have at our disposal now. But people are busy living in our fast paced world, and will not take time to contribute to something if made to feel inferior or unappreciated. They have better ways to use their time for their own personal enjoyment and fulfillment. Wow, we agree again. It’s the dumbing down, ADD world that the digital age has wrought. No one reads papers, reads books, or writes or reads anything of heft and substance. Idiocracy is becoming the new norm (look it up in Wikipedia) and people would rather post some nonsensical post about their need for coffee
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
I think that you will find a lot of us unscientific or sport cavers agree with this. I think there should be a sport caving society formed, that go caving just for the fun of it. Kind of like what the Texas Cavers were twenty years ago. Maybe the caving community has gone a little too far toward the scientific side. There are countless scientific journals out there to cover the needs of the scientific community, if anyone cares to read such dry boring drivel. The N.S.S. and the T.S.A. was started by cavers to serve the needs of cavers, not the academic or science communities. Cavers have drifted so far toward the attitude that caving should only be done for expedition or scientific research that the average sport caver is losing interest in the organizations that were originally formed to benefit cavers. Most of us started caving because it is fun, not because we were pursuing a science related career. Now, many cavers look with disdain upon others who go caving just for the fun of it. Maybe we should go back to being cavers, and not feel like we have to justify every trip for training, mapping, or scientific research. Or, we can watch the N.S.S. and Texas Caver die a slow death, and start the National Sport Caving Society (N.S.C.S.). This is just my opinion of course, and probably will not be considered valid because I do not put the letters P.H.D. behind my name. I am anxiously awaiting the backlash from the academic types. Freddie I. Poer Jr. ( The Jr. is part of my name, not a paper title) --- On Thu, 5/17/12, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: From: mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com Subject: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: texascavers@texascavers.com Cc: Mimi Jasek mjca...@gmail.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 6:59 AM Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few years and whose opinions I highly respect. In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into the past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER. My responses are in BOLD TYPE. Mark, I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers like myself, Jim, and so many others I know or have known are not scientists. We are sport cavers. We cave for the joy and fun and love of this unusual activity, and the beauty we get to see in the pursuit of our passion. We cave, we map, we take pictures. Agreed, as am I and my kids. We go for the fun and camaraderie of it and for the chance to explore a new, alien world. It may not be virgin cave, but, if we haven't been there, it's virgin to us! What we don't do is send in the simple and fun trip reports that our caving would produce, probably so as not to place ourselves as objects of criticism from those who have elevated this activity into such lofty scientific and expedition type reporting that our efforts would be ridiculed! Have you read the old TCs from the 70s etc? How fun were those trip reports and novice articles? Didn't you read on cavetex how that one Aggie caver's wild and rambling report got slammed? Agree again and, yes, I have read them. They are a lot of fun and I enjoy the irreverent attitude in a lot of the articles. I also see how, even back then, there was complaining about no inputs from anyone and the state of the TSA! I used to get slammed by a few folks about fonts, punctuation, and the usual BS, as the Aggie report was slammed. (I enjoyed the article and told them as much). I think you and others - like maybe our current officers - need to try an attitude adjustment in the minds of Texas cavers old and new. Let people know the TC is open to all who wish to send in something about caving here, or if somewhere else, caving done by Texas cavers wherever! Trip reports, poetry, songs, art etc. Scientific and expedition project work NOT necessary! Just cavers writing about caving. I agree and have made repeated appeals to newbie writers in the past in my various postings on CaveTex that you don't have to be a Nobel laureate in order to send something in. The only thing I get back is the sounds of crickets chirping. Although we all love the amazing and scientific/expedition type articles so beautifully and painstakingly produced, I feel that should not be the only content. Is notice by the NSS more important than the continuation of the TC for the long run? Without material, there is no TC, so perhaps that wonderful caving mag should strive to return to simpler and fun times?:) Maybe
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 6:59 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Believe it or not, not ONE grotto is doing newsletters anymore! UTG hasn't done one in years, the DFW's (Oztotl Caver) crashed and burned and they have resorted to a blog on their website which no one posts to, the Maverick Grotto is kaput, the Lubbock Grotto doesn't do one, Bill Bentley did a great job with the PBSS's Hole News, but is it finis, and the Houston Grotto used to have a newsletter when Kevin and Emily McGowan were doing it, but, it also is no more. Ahem, correction. The Greater Houston Grotto (GHG) published it's latest newsletter Dec. 13, 2011. We are still alive! Our editor Ray Hertel is working on the next issue. Kudos to him and to all of our writers. Disclaimer: The following public service announcement is brought to you via a shameless plug by the grotto treasurer to beef up the grotto checking account. We only share the GHG newsletter with grotto members. So send me $10 for your GHG membership ($15 for family) if you want a copy ;) -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
What the hell are y'all talking about? Have you been drinking from Mixon's well or something. If cavers want to see more recreational trip reports etc, then SUBMIT them! Sent from my iPhone On May 17, 2012, at 8:34 AM, freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com wrote: I think that you will find a lot of us unscientific or sport cavers agree with this. I think there should be a sport caving society formed, that go caving just for the fun of it. Kind of like what the Texas Cavers were twenty years ago. Maybe the caving community has gone a little too far toward the scientific side. There are countless scientific journals out there to cover the needs of the scientific community, if anyone cares to read such dry boring drivel. The N.S.S. and the T.S.A. was started by cavers to serve the needs of cavers, not the academic or science communities. Cavers have drifted so far toward the attitude that caving should only be done for expedition or scientific research that the average sport caver is losing interest in the organizations that were originally formed to benefit cavers. Most of us started caving because it is fun, not because we were pursuing a science related career. Now, many cavers look with disdain upon others who go caving just for the fun of it. Maybe we should go back to being cavers, and not feel like we have to justify every trip for training, mapping, or scientific research. Or, we can watch the N.S.S. and Texas Caver die a slow death, and start the National Sport Caving Society (N.S.C.S.). This is just my opinion of course, and probably will not be considered valid because I do not put the letters P.H.D. behind my name. I am anxiously awaiting the backlash from the academic types. Freddie I. Poer Jr. ( The Jr. is part of my name, not a paper title) --- On Thu, 5/17/12, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: From: mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com Subject: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: texascavers@texascavers.com Cc: Mimi Jasek mjca...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 6:59 AM Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few years and whose opinions I highly respect. In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into the past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER. My responses are in BOLD TYPE. Mark, I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers like myself, Jim, and so many others I know or have known are not scientists. We are sport cavers. We cave for the joy and fun and love of this unusual activity, and the beauty we get to see in the pursuit of our passion. We cave, we map, we take pictures. Agreed, as am I and my kids. We go for the fun and camaraderie of it and for the chance to explore a new, alien world. It may not be virgin cave, but, if we haven't been there, it's virgin to us! What we don't do is send in the simple and fun trip reports that our caving would produce, probably so as not to place ourselves as objects of criticism from those who have elevated this activity into such lofty scientific and expedition type reporting that our efforts would be ridiculed! Have you read the old TCs from the 70s etc? How fun were those trip reports and novice articles? Didn't you read on cavetex how that one Aggie caver's wild and rambling report got slammed? Agree again and, yes, I have read them. They are a lot of fun and I enjoy the irreverent attitude in a lot of the articles. I also see how, even back then, there was complaining about no inputs from anyone and the state of the TSA! I used to get slammed by a few folks about fonts, punctuation, and the usual BS, as the Aggie report was slammed. (I enjoyed the article and told them as much). I think you and others - like maybe our current officers - need to try an attitude adjustment in the minds of Texas cavers old and new. Let people know the TC is open to all who wish to send in something about caving here, or if somewhere else, caving done by Texas cavers wherever! Trip reports, poetry, songs, art etc. Scientific and expedition project work NOT necessary! Just cavers writing about caving. I agree and have made repeated appeals to newbie writers in the past in my various postings on CaveTex that you don't have to be a Nobel laureate in order to send something in. The only thing I get back is the sounds of crickets chirping.
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
The Bexar Grotto has a pretty regular newsletter, too. Kudos to Jill Orr for making that happen. Allan Sent with my fat thumbs on my iPhone On May 17, 2012, at 8:51 AM, Lyndon Tiu l...@alumni.sfu.ca wrote: On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 6:59 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Believe it or not, not ONE grotto is doing newsletters anymore! UTG hasn't done one in years, the DFW's (Oztotl Caver) crashed and burned and they have resorted to a blog on their website which no one posts to, the Maverick Grotto is kaput, the Lubbock Grotto doesn't do one, Bill Bentley did a great job with the PBSS's Hole News, but is it finis, and the Houston Grotto used to have a newsletter when Kevin and Emily McGowan were doing it, but, it also is no more. Ahem, correction. The Greater Houston Grotto (GHG) published it's latest newsletter Dec. 13, 2011. We are still alive! Our editor Ray Hertel is working on the next issue. Kudos to him and to all of our writers. Disclaimer: The following public service announcement is brought to you via a shameless plug by the grotto treasurer to beef up the grotto checking account. We only share the GHG newsletter with grotto members. So send me $10 for your GHG membership ($15 for family) if you want a copy ;) -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
That's great news, Lyndon! Thanks for sharing this info. Ray, Jacqui, and any other editors out there: Please be sure to email me a copy of y'all's newsletter. If I find something of interest, I would like to run it in the TC. This is a great way to introduce new cavers to the wider Texas caving community, as well as excellent publicity for your Grotto, newsletter, and activities to the TSA membership. As well as giving me something to fill up The TEXAS CAVER! Not to mention publicity in The NSS NEWS. (Yes, I do send Kim Gentry EVERY issue that is printed). Way to go, Ray! Thanks, Mark -Original Message- From: lyndon@gmail.com [mailto:lyndon@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Lyndon Tiu Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 8:51 AM To: Alman, Mark @ SSG - WSG - EOS; Mimi Jasek Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com; Ray Hertel; GHG Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 6:59 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Believe it or not, not ONE grotto is doing newsletters anymore! UTG hasn't done one in years, the DFW's (Oztotl Caver) crashed and burned and they have resorted to a blog on their website which no one posts to, the Maverick Grotto is kaput, the Lubbock Grotto doesn't do one, Bill Bentley did a great job with the PBSS's Hole News, but is it finis, and the Houston Grotto used to have a newsletter when Kevin and Emily McGowan were doing it, but, it also is no more. Ahem, correction. The Greater Houston Grotto (GHG) published it's latest newsletter Dec. 13, 2011. We are still alive! Our editor Ray Hertel is working on the next issue. Kudos to him and to all of our writers. Disclaimer: The following public service announcement is brought to you via a shameless plug by the grotto treasurer to beef up the grotto checking account. We only share the GHG newsletter with grotto members. So send me $10 for your GHG membership ($15 for family) if you want a copy ;) -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Reading this e-mail exchange and the perceived focus on too many science articles in the TC made me think that I didn’t recall any recent science articles. So I took a quick at the table of contents for the last nine issues through the start of 2010 and found a total of 60 articles listed. I found an abundance of reports on surveys, projects, and generally lots of “fun” (non-project/non-survey/non-sciency) caving Texas cavers are doing in Texas, with a small number of reports on caving in Mexico. I found reports on TCRs, TSA conventions, equipment reports, and news I expect most cavers would be interested in. I only found one article that could be classified as “science,” a nice 1-page report by Jerry Atkinson and Butch Fralia on bad air in Texas caves. Considering how many Texas caves have bad air, I’d also expect this would be of interest to most cavers who generally aren’t interested in science articles. So for at least for the past two years, the TC has had a nice mix of articles with no bias toward science. As I also skimmed through these articles, I was impressed with the great quality of caving, maps, reporting, and information provided by Texas cavers, and Mark’s skills at coaxing the articles and photos and providing them to us in a beautiful format. It has always been necessary for TC editors to arm-twist articles from cavers. And there are always cycles where minimal twisting is needed and times like now where tons of pressure produces little result. I deeply appreciate Mark’s efforts and those of past editors. It is not an easy job. In hopes that it helps Mark at least a little, here are two thoughts that might get some of you to send in material. 1) If you are organizing a trip or project, the cave owner or manager may want a trip report. Sometimes they don’t ask for one, but to maintain access to the cave many cavers will often send an occasional trip report or summary of trips. If you do this, and the owner doesn’t object, send a copy of the TC. 2) If you a new caver and think us old timers aren’t interested in what you’re doing, you’re wrong. When I started caving, I had a tough time getting on trips and the attention of some of the big-time cavers. I soon discovered that after I started sending reports to the TC, I was suddenly welcomed by many cavers and onto trips and projects. I’ve seen this happen over and over with many other cavers since then. Publishing articles in the TC shows people what you’re doing, that you in fact know what you’re doing as a skilled and responsible caver, and increases their confidence and desire to spend time with you and to invite you on trips. It doesn’t happen overnight, but it does start to happen after a few articles. Again, my thanks to Mark for his excellent work on the TC. George From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 05:59 To: texascavers@texascavers.com Cc: Mimi Jasek Subject: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few years and whose opinions I highly respect. In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into the past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER. My responses are in BOLD TYPE. Mark, I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers like myself, Jim, and so many others I know or have known are not scientists. We are sport cavers. We cave for the joy and fun and love of this unusual activity, and the beauty we get to see in the pursuit of our passion. We cave, we map, we take pictures. Agreed, as am I and my kids. We go for the fun and camaraderie of it and for the chance to explore a new, alien world. It may not be virgin cave, but, if we haven't been there, it's virgin to us! What we don't do is send in the simple and fun trip reports that our caving would produce, probably so as not to place ourselves as objects of criticism from those who have elevated this activity into such lofty scientific and expedition type reporting that our efforts would be ridiculed! Have you read the old TCs from the 70s etc? How fun were those trip reports and novice articles? Didn't you read on cavetex how that one Aggie caver's wild and rambling report got slammed? Agree again and, yes, I have read them. They are a lot of fun and I enjoy the irreverent attitude in a lot of the articles. I also see how, even back then, there was complaining about no inputs from anyone and the state of the TSA! I used to
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Great to hear, Allan, and kudos to Jill. Glad to see that there are a few grotto newsletters still in existence. Now, if y'all would be so kind to copy me when a new one comes out... Thanks, Mark -Original Message- From: Allan B. Cobb [mailto:a...@oztotl.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 9:54 AM To: Lyndon Tiu Cc: Alman, Mark @ SSG - WSG - EOS; Mimi Jasek; texascavers@texascavers.com; Ray Hertel; GHG Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion The Bexar Grotto has a pretty regular newsletter, too. Kudos to Jill Orr for making that happen. Allan Sent with my fat thumbs on my iPhone On May 17, 2012, at 8:51 AM, Lyndon Tiu l...@alumni.sfu.ca wrote: On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 6:59 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Believe it or not, not ONE grotto is doing newsletters anymore! UTG hasn't done one in years, the DFW's (Oztotl Caver) crashed and burned and they have resorted to a blog on their website which no one posts to, the Maverick Grotto is kaput, the Lubbock Grotto doesn't do one, Bill Bentley did a great job with the PBSS's Hole News, but is it finis, and the Houston Grotto used to have a newsletter when Kevin and Emily McGowan were doing it, but, it also is no more. Ahem, correction. The Greater Houston Grotto (GHG) published it's latest newsletter Dec. 13, 2011. We are still alive! Our editor Ray Hertel is working on the next issue. Kudos to him and to all of our writers. Disclaimer: The following public service announcement is brought to you via a shameless plug by the grotto treasurer to beef up the grotto checking account. We only share the GHG newsletter with grotto members. So send me $10 for your GHG membership ($15 for family) if you want a copy ;) -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Thanks, George, for confirming my similar suspicions. I've never thought of the Texas Caver or even the NSS News as particularly science oriented. (The NSS has the Journal of Cave and Karst Studies for that.) Perhaps instead of science the perception is that publications are too heavily biased toward expedition and project caving. I certainly find those articles most interesting because that's the kind of caving I've been doing for over 40 years, but I generally read every article in the Texas Caver, even if it is about a newbie trip to Airman's. I also enjoy keeping up with activities like TSA Conventions and TCR, which I am too far away too attend. So, I join the chorus of those encouraging everyone to write about their trips, even if they are sport trips with no new exploration or science. I also agree with Ben Schwartz about almost all caving being fun, whether it's science, mapping, digging, whatever. We wouldn't do it otherwise. Expedition and project reports also generally mention the great camaraderie and fun times had around the campfire, hiking to the caves, etc. I've even been on cave rescues (all successful, fortunately) that were fun. So write about your trips, even if nothing new is discovered. Tell us how much fun you had, and let us share in it. Keep the faith, Mark, and keep up the great work as editor! Mark At 11:06 AM 5/17/2012, George Veni wrote: Reading this e-mail exchange and the perceived focus on too many science articles in the TC made me think that I didn't recall any recent science articles. So I took a quick at the table of contents for the last nine issues through the start of 2010 and found a total of 60 articles listed. I found an abundance of reports on surveys, projects, and generally lots of fun (non-project/non-survey/non-sciency) caving Texas cavers are doing in Texas, with a small number of reports on caving in Mexico. I found reports on TCRs, TSA conventions, equipment reports, and news I expect most cavers would be interested in. I only found one article that could be classified as science, a nice 1-page report by Jerry Atkinson and Butch Fralia on bad air in Texas caves. Considering how many Texas caves have bad air, I'd also expect this would be of interest to most cavers who generally aren't interested in science articles. Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Now if all who responded to these e-mails would send in just one trip report,
Mark might just have the materials he needs to work with.
--- On Thu, 5/17/12, Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net wrote:
From: Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 11:29 AM
Don't give up..
Bill
- Original Message -
From: freddie poer
To: mark.al...@l-3com.com
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
I think that you will find a lot of us unscientific or sport cavers agree
with this. I think there should be a sport caving society formed, that go
caving just for the fun of it. Kind of like what the Texas Cavers were twenty
years ago. Maybe the caving community has gone a little too far toward the
scientific side. There are countless scientific journals out there to cover the
needs of the scientific community, if anyone cares to read such dry boring
drivel. The N.S.S. and the T.S.A. was started by cavers to serve the needs of
cavers, not the academic or science communities. Cavers have drifted so far
toward the attitude that caving should only be done for expedition or
scientific research that the average sport caver is losing interest in the
organizations that were originally formed to benefit cavers. Most of us started
caving because it is fun, not because we were pursuing a science related
career. Now, many cavers look with disdain
upon others who go caving just for the fun of it. Maybe we should go back to
being cavers, and not feel like we have to justify every trip for training,
mapping, or scientific research. Or, we can watch the N.S.S. and Texas Caver
die a slow death, and start the National Sport Caving Society (N.S.C.S.). This
is just my opinion of course, and probably will not be considered valid because
I do not put the letters P.H.D. behind my name. I am anxiously awaiting the
backlash from the academic types.
Freddie I. Poer Jr. ( The Jr. is part of my name, not a paper title)
--- On Thu, 5/17/12, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
From: mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: Mimi Jasek mjca...@gmail.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 6:59 AM
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Most of y’all know Mimi and James Jasek, a couple of long time and
distinguished cavers in the state, who I have grown to know over the last few
years and whose opinions I highly respect.
In answer to my pleading for submissions to the TC and only being greeted by
crickets chirping from the masses, an interesting conversation between Mimi
Jasek and I began and I would like to share her thoughts and insights into the
past, present, and future (demise?) of The TEXAS CAVER.
My responses are in BOLD TYPE.
Mark,
I have noticed that caving publications these days are so scientifically
oriented that normal sport cavers are probably scared off. Other cavers
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
I’m thinking that it’s very selfish of individual Grottos to produce their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver. Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a Grotto newsletter serve? My 2p. -Stefan From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:36 PM To: Bill Bentley Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion Now if all who responded to these e-mails would send in just one trip report, Mark might just have the materials he needs to work with. --- On Thu, 5/17/12, Bill Bentley ca...@caver.netmailto:ca...@caver.net wrote: From: Bill Bentley ca...@caver.netmailto:ca...@caver.net Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.commailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 11:29 AM Don't give up.. Bill -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Who says the two have to be mutually exclusive? I enjoy Speleospace (the Houston Grotto newsletter) and The Texas Caver. Our grotto newsletters feature meeting minutes, etc that would be an absolute bore to anyone not affiliated with the Houston Grotto. We have the same problems as Mark, tho...no one wants to contribute articles! So it's not like people are too busy writing articles for their grotto newsletter to contribute articles to TSA On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Stefan Creaser stefan.crea...@arm.comwrote: I’m thinking that it’s very selfish of individual Grottos to produce their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver. ** ** Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a Grotto newsletter serve? ** ** My 2p. ** ** -Stefan ** ** ** ** ** ** *From:* freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] *Sent:* Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:36 PM *To:* Bill Bentley *Cc:* texascavers@texascavers.com *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion ** ** Now if all who responded to these e-mails would send in just one trip report, Mark might just have the materials he needs to work with. --- On *Thu, 5/17/12, Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net* wrote: From: Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 11:29 AM Don't give up.. Bill ** ** -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
I agree with Mallory. In the past, grotto newsletters were usually very local in scope and not of general interest to cavers elsewhere. There might also be reports on things like vertical practice or a survey class. When there were enough (were there ever really enough?) articles on original exploration or project and expedition reports in Texas Caver, even sport trip reports could be safely relegated to grotto newsletters. However in the present situation with few articles available, it might make sense to submit all trip reports to both the local newsletter and Texas Caver. Mark At 03:55 PM 5/17/2012, Mallory Mayeux wrote: Who says the two have to be mutually exclusive? I enjoy Speleospace (the Houston Grotto newsletter) and The Texas Caver. Our grotto newsletters feature meeting minutes, etc that would be an absolute bore to anyone not affiliated with the Houston Grotto. We have the same problems as Mark, tho...no one wants to contribute articles! So it's not like people are too busy writing articles for their grotto newsletter to contribute articles to TSA On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Stefan Creaser stefan.crea...@arm.com wrote: I'm thinking that it's very selfish of individual Grottos to produce their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver. Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a Grotto newsletter serve? My 2p. -Stefan Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
Sorry The Maverick Grotto flopped, there were a lot of articles that started there and ended up in The Caver. Same thing with the DFW Oztotl years ago. I can't do the things I did back then so don't get out to write articles. Surely there's someone out there with an ego that likes to see their name in print. Butch -Original Message- From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 4:08 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion I agree with Mallory. In the past, grotto newsletters were usually very local in scope and not of general interest to cavers elsewhere. There might also be reports on things like vertical practice or a survey class. When there were enough (were there ever really enough?) articles on original exploration or project and expedition reports in Texas Caver, even sport trip reports could be safely relegated to grotto newsletters. However in the present situation with few articles available, it might make sense to submit all trip reports to both the local newsletter and Texas Caver. Mark At 03:55 PM 5/17/2012, Mallory Mayeux wrote: Who says the two have to be mutually exclusive? I enjoy Speleospace (the Houston Grotto newsletter) and The Texas Caver. Our grotto newsletters feature meeting minutes, etc that would be an absolute bore to anyone not affiliated with the Houston Grotto. We have the same problems as Mark, tho...no one wants to contribute articles! So it's not like people are too busy writing articles for their grotto newsletter to contribute articles to TSA On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Stefan Creaser stefan.crea...@arm.com wrote: I'm thinking that it's very selfish of individual Grottos to produce their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver. Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a Grotto newsletter serve? My 2p. -Stefan Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
