Re: [time-nuts] [volt-nuts] febo.com Mailing List Changes

[Jerry Hancock]

John, thanks for all you’ve done in the past.

Regards,

Jerry NK6P

> On Jun 6, 2018, at 11:17 AM, John Ackermann N8UR  wrote:
> 
> Some of you may know that febo.com lives on leased hardware at a data center. 
>  That hardware is now at its end of service life, which means it won't be 
> supported if it breaks.  After pondering the options for a replacement, I've 
> decided that it's time to move away from dedicated hardware toward 
> cloud-based services, and to offload some of the sysadmin responsibilities to 
> people who know what they are doing.
> 
> As part of that, the febo.com mailing lists will be moving to a new list 
> hosting provider.  I'm working to make the transition as seamless as 
> possible.  You will not need to resubscribe to the mailing lists, or change 
> any list settings.  The lists will continue to use the Mailman software and 
> web interface, and will work just as they have been.
> 
> However, the address for posting messages will change.  Instead of sending 
> to, for example, "time-nuts@febo.com" you'll now send to
> "time-n...@lists.febo.com" -- just adding "lists." to the domain.
> 
> The new addresses should be working now.  On June 15, the old addresses will 
> stop working; all postings after that date need to be to
> @lists.febo.com.
> 
> Around July 1, the lists will move to the new hosting company.  We will 
> probably turn the lists off for a day or two during that transition, and I'll 
> send a note when that is about to happen.  When the lists come back, you 
> should see no further changes.
> 
> A note about the list archives, which have been accessible by going to, for 
> example, "https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts;, and which Google does a 
> pretty good job of indexing.  Going forward, the archive URL will change as 
> well, using the lists.febo.com domain.  That may impact search results until 
> Google indexes the new site.  I'll maintain the existing archives as of the 
> cutover date at the old URL to mitigate the problem.  Between June 15 and 
> July 1, archive access may be a bit flaky.
> 
> This change will improve the reliability of the mailing lists, and remove 
> several single points of failure.  It should allow the lists to continue 
> indefinitely into the future.  I hope that the transition doesn't cause you 
> too much inconvenience.  If you have any questions or concerns, please 
> contact me directly at j...@febo.com.
> 
> John Ackermann
> Your SysAdmin
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Re: [time-nuts] Traveling to the US west coast

[Jerry Hancock]

Are you going to be in San Francisco area?  Maybe we could get a time-nuts 
breakfast together with a couple of us.

Regards,

Jerry



> On May 17, 2018, at 11:25 PM, Attila Kinali  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Some of you might already know, I will fly to the US west coast
> to attend IFCS. Afterwards, I will be in Seattle for a couple of
> days (from 25th to 31st). If you are in the area and want to meet up,
> please drop me an email (off-list).
> 
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5372A

[Jerry Hancock]

By the way, if you would like some data captured during the last run, let me 
know.  I have an excel sheet of the peak data from spectrum lab centered on 
1850hz as I use the 3586B receiver.

Regards,

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
je...@hanler.com
(415) 215-3779

> On May 11, 2018, at 10:52 AM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
> 
> If you were in Connie’s back yard or had a very stable ground wave, then yes, 
> you could automate the testing.
> 
> There are a number of challenges with this method as looking at the data with 
> a simple graph will tell.  You might have large fluctuations on the high 
> frequency side only, for instance, that any averaging or algorithm would 
> assume to be valid data.
> 
> The next issue is the length of the dataset as the key-down time is only a 
> few minutes so you end-up with not that many samples.  
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jerry
> 
>> On May 10, 2018, at 5:59 AM, Don Murray via time-nuts <time-nuts@febo.com> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Magnus...
>> 
>> 
>> Appreciate any help!
>> 
>> I participate in the ARRL Frequency Measuring Test,
>> and I would like to automate the measuring process.
>> 
>> I have two frequencies, A and B...
>> 
>> A is a GPS locked HP 3336B set to 455,000.000 Hz
>> 
>> I use the 3336B instead of the 455,000Hz BFO
>> signal from my GPS locked Racal receiver so
>> that I can measure AM stations without the
>> annoying beat note.  ;-)
>> 
>> B is an IF signal which should appear between
>> 455,000.000Hz and 455,001.000 Hz
>> 
>> I would like the 5372A to calculate the B minus A
>> delta, over a manually started and automatically
>> stopped measurement period of 110 seconds.
>> 
>> I would like a delta resolution of 0.001Hz to be
>> developed by the box.
>> 
>> Now, there will be doppler.  I want the box
>> to analyze and give me a best statistical guess
>> for the B minus A delta.
>> 
>> BTW the B minus A delta will be added to the
>> frequency of my Racal receiver to give me the
>> best "guess" as to the correct frequency of the
>> target signal.
>> 
>> The Racal reads out to the Hz, and I am able to
>> accurately determine if the Racal is tuned above
>> or below the "target" frequency.
>> 
>> I will be tuned below the "target" and within
>> 1 Hz of the "target."
>> 
>> I assume I will be in the one frequency mode.
>> 
>> Can the box give me the desired resolution?
>> 
>> What sampling period would be the best to use?
>> 
>> What statistical result would I use as my delta?
>> 
>> Appreciate your help.  My head is spinning whenever I
>> get into the operating manual!
>> 
>> TNX...
>> 
>> 
>> 73
>> Don
>> W4WJ
>> 
>> In a message dated 5/10/2018 2:19:49 AM Central Standard Time, 
>> mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes:
>> 
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> What issues do you have?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>> 
>> On 05/08/2018 02:32 AM, Don Murray via time-nuts wrote:
>>> Hello Time Nuts...
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Who is the resident expert on the HP5372A?
>>> 
>>> I have some operational questions.  ;-)
>>> 
>>> email off list please.  w4wj at aol.com
>>> 
>>> TNX all...
>>> 
>>> 73
>>> Don
>>> W4WJ
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
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> 
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5372A

[Jerry Hancock]

If you were in Connie’s back yard or had a very stable ground wave, then yes, 
you could automate the testing.

There are a number of challenges with this method as looking at the data with a 
simple graph will tell.  You might have large fluctuations on the high 
frequency side only, for instance, that any averaging or algorithm would assume 
to be valid data.

The next issue is the length of the dataset as the key-down time is only a few 
minutes so you end-up with not that many samples.  

Regards,

Jerry

> On May 10, 2018, at 5:59 AM, Don Murray via time-nuts  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Magnus...
>  
>  
> Appreciate any help!
>  
> I participate in the ARRL Frequency Measuring Test,
> and I would like to automate the measuring process.
>  
> I have two frequencies, A and B...
>  
> A is a GPS locked HP 3336B set to 455,000.000 Hz
>  
> I use the 3336B instead of the 455,000Hz BFO
> signal from my GPS locked Racal receiver so
> that I can measure AM stations without the
> annoying beat note.  ;-)
>  
> B is an IF signal which should appear between
> 455,000.000Hz and 455,001.000 Hz
>  
> I would like the 5372A to calculate the B minus A
> delta, over a manually started and automatically
> stopped measurement period of 110 seconds.
>  
> I would like a delta resolution of 0.001Hz to be
> developed by the box.
>  
> Now, there will be doppler.  I want the box
> to analyze and give me a best statistical guess
> for the B minus A delta.
>  
> BTW the B minus A delta will be added to the
> frequency of my Racal receiver to give me the
> best "guess" as to the correct frequency of the
> target signal.
>  
> The Racal reads out to the Hz, and I am able to
> accurately determine if the Racal is tuned above
> or below the "target" frequency.
>  
> I will be tuned below the "target" and within
> 1 Hz of the "target."
>  
> I assume I will be in the one frequency mode.
>  
> Can the box give me the desired resolution?
>  
> What sampling period would be the best to use?
>  
> What statistical result would I use as my delta?
>  
> Appreciate your help.  My head is spinning whenever I
> get into the operating manual!
>  
> TNX...
>  
>  
> 73
> Don
> W4WJ
>  
> In a message dated 5/10/2018 2:19:49 AM Central Standard Time, 
> mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org writes:
> 
>  
> Hi,
> 
> What issues do you have?
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 05/08/2018 02:32 AM, Don Murray via time-nuts wrote:
>> Hello Time Nuts...
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> Who is the resident expert on the HP5372A?
>>  
>> I have some operational questions.  ;-)
>>  
>> email off list please.  w4wj at aol.com
>>  
>> TNX all...
>>  
>> 73
>> Don
>> W4WJ
>>  
>>  
>> ___
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>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Racal 9475 Rubidium

[Jerry Hancock]

They also suffer from all the typical electronic component age related faults.  
I had 5 units that had four bad capacitors each, for instance, and after 
replacing the caps, they run well.
Regards,

Jerry


> On May 1, 2018, at 6:16 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> Ok, quick intro to Rb standards:
> 
> On an Rb you have a light bulb. It’s a really weird bulb but a bulb none the 
> less. 
> On most (but not all ) designs the bulb has a finite life. Various 
> improvements
> over the years have stretched out the life. Just when which outfits did which 
> improvements …. who knows ….
> 
> Rb’s need to run hot. They have a couple of heated zones inside the physics 
> package. Heat and electronics are not a good combo. Various designs have
> issues on the stuff inside the hot zones. 
> 
> In addition to all this, they have crystal oscillators that drift. Once the 
> oscillator
> drifts far enough, the device isn’t going to lock up. 
> 
> That’s a quick, very non-specific to your unit, list.
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On May 1, 2018, at 5:18 AM, Paul Bicknell  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all new member hear could any of you help with the following information
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> As I have just bought a Racal 9475 Rubidium and it has problems
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Is there any stock faults ?
>> 
>> What is the life of the rubidium standard?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Regards Paul 
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] suggestions on getting 24 Mhz ?

[Jerry Hancock]

For and RSP?  I used an HP 3325 locked to my Cs beam and took the signal from 
the back.  I think I paid no more than $100 for the 3325a and one I got for 
free.

Regards,

Jerry


> On Apr 11, 2018, at 4:49 AM, jster...@att.net wrote:
> 
> Leo Bodnar GPSDO - adjustable Low-jitter GPS-locked precision frequency 
> reference 400 Hz to 810 MHz .  He has a new one, single output for 99 british 
> pounds.
> 
> Jerry NY2KW
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts  On Behalf Of Pete Lancashire
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 6:00 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
> Subject: [time-nuts] suggestions on getting 24 Mhz ?
> 
> Needed for SDR project as external clock source.
> 
> -pete
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[time-nuts] timing an ITR master clock

[Jerry Hancock]

I have a new to me International Time Recorder (pre-IBM) master clock.  I has 
second, minute and hour closures and was thinking of using the second closure 
to check the beat and time.  If others have done this kind of thing, let me 
know.  I have a mix of timing equipment, of course, and have to be careful with 
DC always, so I was thinking of just using an oscillator looped through the 
second switch to get a rough idea of the timing.

Thoughts?  Beautiful clock, a friend of mine is the current expert having over 
300 such clocks and affiliated secondary clocks, etc.

Regards,

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
je...@hanler.com
(415) 215-3779

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Re: [time-nuts] Introduction, new list member, Ms Tisha Hayes, AA4HA

[Jerry Hancock]

Yep, 3586B put me in the top list two times I used it along with a calibrated 
SpectrumLab + PC combo.  I’d like to use my IC-7610 this time, have to figure 
all that out I guess as the April test rapidly approaches UTC time I remember 
now.


Regards,

Jerry


> On Mar 29, 2018, at 5:21 AM, John Ackermann N8UR  wrote:
> 
> The impedance mismatch with the A or B models is't a real issue unless you're 
> doing precise amplitude measurements.  Lots of folks use them for FMT work 
> without issues. There are adapters available or buildable to deal with the 
> odd Telco connectors.
> 
> John
> 
> On Mar 29, 2018, 3:04 AM, at 3:04 AM, Ruslan Nabioullin 
>  wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 9:49 PM, Tisha Hayes 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Perry and I would make our pilgrimages to the Huntsville Ham Fest and
>>> usually I ended up buying equipment from him. One of the items he
>> sent my
>>> way was an HP 3586B that I am finally beginning to put to use.
>>> 
>> 
>> Hmm that measuring receiver model (diffs can be found in:
>> http://www.militaryradio.com/manuals/HP/hp3586-a-b-c.pdf ) was
>> apparently
>> intended for testing and troubleshooting purposes for those ancient
>> FDM-based POTS trunk systems, not as a general-purpose HF measuring
>> receiver (the HP 3586C)---I'm not sure how well they would function as
>> HF
>> receivers for WWV and CHU following impedance adaptation (b/c it
>> doesn't
>> have a 50 ohm unbalanced interface).
>> 
>> In my case, I supply my time transfer volunteers with the following
>> setup:
>> 
>> vertical antenna -> TVSS -> preamplifier -> military rackmount
>> preselector
>> -> military/intelligence rackmount parametric demodulator or HP 3586C
>> ->
>> Xeon NTP server via soundcard
>> 
>> with GNU/Linux daemon software which commands the preselector and
>> demodulator via GPIB.
>> 
>> Still, WWV/CHU-derived public NTP nodes are virtually nonexistent, and
>> therefore there's a strong need for them, regardless of the
>> sophistication
>> of the receiver, due to the pitfalls of GNSS.
>> 
>> -Ruslan
>> 
>> -- 
>> Ruslan Nabioullin
>> Wittgenstein Laboratories
>> rnabioul...@gmail.com
>> (508) 523-8535
>> 50 Louise Dr.
>> Hollis, NH 03049
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Re: [time-nuts] Ultra low power RTC

[Jerry Hancock]

I would have thought better.  

I built a nixie clock from Tubeclocks.com .  Granted it 
is in a pretty constant temperature, but I doubt that clock varies less than 3 
seconds per year.  Peter, the designer, sent me some code that takes a 1PPS but 
I never got it running as I liked the fact that it was undisciplined (like my 
kids) and still incredibly accurate.  I just checked it as it had been running 
4 months since I moved it to my new office and I doubt is off 1/5th a second.

Regards,

Jerry

> On Mar 6, 2018, at 2:59 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> Sparkfun is selling an interesting RTC clock chip board.  It draws 22 nA.  It 
> has a rather novel clock generator... a tuning fork crystal disciplines an RC 
> oscillator every few minutes.  They claim 3 minutes per year drift.
> 
> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/14642
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Re: [time-nuts] Need a Watch Recommendation

[Jerry Hancock]

An by the way, I also have a Tissot P-touch as a retirement gift from IBM.  Got 
the watch, as they say.  I can say it is very accurate for a non-disciplined 
watch if you wear it every day.

Regards,

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
je...@hanler.com
(415) 215-3779

> On Mar 5, 2018, at 2:44 AM, Attila Kinali <att...@kinali.ch> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 01:38:06 -0500
> Don Murray via time-nuts <time-nuts@febo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> So it looks as if I am in need of a new wristwatch,
>> which will give me some kind of time accuracy.
> 
> I've owned several Swatch and Tissot over the past decades,
> Growing up in Switzerland does that to you. :-)
> 
> I currently have a Tissot P-Touch (first generation) and
> a Swatch Irony in active use. Both are accurate enough
> that I only set them twice a year (DST switch) and they
> are usually off by less than 10s. Which is good enough
> for my needs as a wristwatch.
> 
> So I guess, go for any modern Swiss quartz watch :-)
> 
>   Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
> -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [time-nuts] Need a Watch Recommendation

[Jerry Hancock]

If you are into rugged, I have a casio atomic solar that special forces use…

I was able to tail-end a gov’t contract and got it for cheap.

aren’t we silly.

Regards,

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
je...@hanler.com
(415) 215-3779

> On Mar 4, 2018, at 10:38 PM, Don Murray via time-nuts <time-nuts@febo.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hello Time Nuts...
> 
> 
>  
> After 6 years of no troubles, in sync with WWV any
> hour of the day, flawless transfer between
> standard and daylight time my Stauer Titanium
> Atomic wristwatch bite the dust a year ago.
>  
> Since then, Stauer has sent me three replacements,
> each with some type of problem.  
>  
> So it looks as if I am in need of a new wristwatch,
> which will give me some kind of time accuracy.
>  
> So, Time Nuts...  any suggestions or recommendations?
>  
> TNX
>  
> 73
> Don
> W4WJ
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Re: [time-nuts] unidentified HF time pips

[Jerry Hancock]

I saw the movie with Cusack.  Wondered the same.  Probably just ordering toilet 
paper…

Regards,

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
je...@hanler.com <mailto:je...@hanler.com>
(415) 215-3779

> On Feb 5, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Eric Scace <e...@scace.org 
> <mailto:e...@scace.org>> wrote:
> 
> This is a numbers station <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station>. — 
> Eric K3NA
> 
>> In a message dated 2/5/2018 12:34:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>> je...@hanler.com <mailto:je...@hanler.com> writes:
>> 
>>  
>> Ha, so I was jumping around looking for the same and found a guy on 
>> 15.016Mhz running through random characters phonetically and then signing, 
>> “this completes X characters, Horsefly out.” What the heck was that?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Jerry
> 

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Re: [time-nuts] unidentified HF time pips

[Jerry Hancock]

Ha, so I was jumping around looking for the same and found a guy on 15.016Mhz 
running through random characters phonetically and then signing, “this 
completes X characters, Horsefly out.”  What the heck was that?

Regards,

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
je...@hanler.com
(415) 215-3779

> On Feb 5, 2018, at 9:18 AM, Scott Armstrong <aa...@vntx.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi Graham,
> 
> I am listening to one of those "time pips"  on 30m right now. (1714 utc
> 02/05/2018).
> Frequency is 10.105.
> 
> The best I can tell with my calibrated ears and eyes, it appears to be in
> sync with WWV. Signal strength is about a s6-7.
> 
> I also heard this on Saturday 02/03/2018  about the same frequency but
> later in the day.
> 
> -Scott AA5AM
> EM13sg - Blue Ridge TX
> 
> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 4:31 PM, Graham <planoph...@aei.ca> wrote:
> 
>> For some time there have been occasional reports of time pips on a number
>> HF frequencies other than the well known CHU, WWV, (etc...) signals.
>> 
>> For example 10140, 10145, 7040, 7065, 7105, 7120 kHz and likely others.
>> 
>> The pips are approximately 15 to 16ms in duration and appear to locked to
>> UTC but unlike WWV or CHU they are continuous minute by minute.
>> 
>> Assuming the pips are synchronized to UTC, simply time of arrival with all
>> of its issues on HF plus signal strength seems to indicated a source in
>> North America.
>> 
>> The frequencies and time of activity might indicate that it is some
>> amateur radio operator playing around  but it might not be, the amateur
>> 10MHz frequencies is shared with other users. The pips seem to be
>> transmitted at a fairly high power level.
>> 
>> I know there is ongoing testing of eLoran and other initiatives
>> researching GPS backup systems.
>> 
>> Anyone aware of any group doing any such testing which might be found on
>> HF like this?
>> 
>> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Si5340 synthesizer chip performance

[Jerry Hancock]

John, what device did you use for the test?


Regards,

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
je...@hanler.com
(415) 215-3779

> On Jan 28, 2018, at 4:23 PM, John Ackermann N8UR <j...@febo.com> wrote:
> 
> I received the Si5340A evaluation board from Digikey on Friday and fired it 
> up yesterday.  I used the SiLabs "ClockBuilder" software to configure four 
> outputs -- 10 MHz, 15 MHz, 29.999 999 9 MHz, and 144.2 MHz -- all using the 
> 45 MHz crystal that comes with the EVM.  Attached is a phase noise plot of 
> the 10 MHz and 29.999 999 9 MHz signals.  I would say this isn't too bad!  
> This performance is certainly sufficient for any of the RF work I have in 
> mind.
> 
> The ADEV was another matter -- about 1e-9 at 1 second, working its way uphill 
> from there.  But what do you expect from a bare crystal?
> 
> John
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] minimalist sine to square

[Jerry Hancock]

Tom might have started this as I was playing around with PICDIV and had asked 
him the best conditioning circuit.  Turned out I had all the parts to copy the 
TADD-2 including the mini circuits transformer so that’s what I did.  It works 
well, pretty sensitive, etc.  I’ve also used the bias trick with a TTL or CMOS 
buffer when I needed to convert SPIDF signals to baseband for driving an 
optical connection.

Now that I had the input conditioned, I need to drive a 50ohm load with the 
signal coming from the PICDIV.  Can someone point me at a circuit using 
transistors and 10V if possible?

I am trying to duplicate one channel of the TADD2 so I can bring 10Mhz down to 
10Khz.

Thanks

Jerry


> On Jan 20, 2018, at 11:21 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:
> 
> 
> In message , jimlux 
> writes:
> 
>>> I played with that, I used a small transformer to balance the signal
>>> and then into LVDS receiver through a voltage divider.  Worked well,
>>> but I didn't measure the jitter, it was just for a micro-controller.
>> 
>> You can also do it with capacitive dc block to one side, and some 
>> resistors - the ap notes describe it.  The receivers are a fairly high Z 
>> input, so you pick the voltage divider resistors to make the termination 
>> resistance right for the incoming signal.
> 
> Yes, but that doesn't give you galvanic isolation, which I think is almost
> mandatory unless it is a metrology situation.
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] Time interval measurement vs dual mixer method

[Jerry Hancock]

I am working to build a small DMTD system based on Bill Riley’s paper.   Bill 
was kind enough to send me a package with updates.  In the meantime, I tested 
an AD8302 phase detector coupled to an HP voltmeter (HP3456 and HP3457), both 
with the filter set.  I believe the HP3456A voltmeter filter limits voltage 
changes to below 60hz.  The results were interesting but I don’t have anything 
to compare them with though they did look correct from a relative standpoint.  
For instance, my Cs beam looked better than one Rb unit and my GPSDOs looked 
better at longer Tau.  My HP 10811 looked correct when compared to others.

The issue with the AD8302 though is that phase deltas below 3 degrees are 
inaccurate, actually the plots had flats at those phase deltas.  Also, since it 
reports in degrees, you need to change that back to time which I did in a 
spreadsheet.  

Regards,

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
je...@hanler.com
(415) 215-3779

> On Jan 16, 2018, at 8:58 AM, slawek dabrowski <slawd...@wp.pl> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hello to the group!
> 
> Have you ever measured frequency standard (or other precision oscillator) 
> simultanously by time interval method (difference between 1 pps ref and 1 pps 
> DUT) and dual mixer method (e.q. with phase/frequency comparator)? I'm very 
> interested in results.
> 
> Slawek
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Stable32 now available

[Jerry Hancock]

On the Rb unit I am sending you, I just use female standard jumpers on the 
pins.  You’ll need +24 at about 1A and +5 at 400ma or less.  Be careful if and 
when you open it as the caps I used were a little tall and they might get hung 
up on the case as you slide the board out.  There is a 9-pin header inside but 
I never saw any activity on it.  Overall the units are pretty stable.

Have fun!

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
je...@hanler.com
(415) 215-3779

> On Jan 12, 2018, at 11:47 AM, paul swed <paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello to the group. The Stable32 book arrived yesterday from Lulu and its
> as expected. Good quality at a reasonable cost.
> It also arrived far faster then the web site would have you believe.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 10:13 AM, Dr. David Kirkby <
> drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>> On 5 January 2018 at 14:21, Graham <planoph...@aei.ca> wrote:
>> 
>>> Lulu is currently having a promotion with free postage for those
>>> contemplating ordering a copy of the manual from Lulu.
>>> 
>>> Get free mail or 50% off ground shipping!
>>> Use promo code *SHIPIT2018*
>>> Expires Jan 8 at 11:59 pm ET
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> http://www.lulu.com/shop/william-riley/stable32-user-manual/
>>> paperback/product-3507840.html
>>> 
>>> Lulu frequently has specials, sometimes a percentage discount plus
>> reduced
>>> or no shipping.
>>> 
>>> https://www.lulu.com/
>>> 
>>> cheers, Graham
>> 
>> 
>> Thank you for that.
>> 
>> I entered the code, and it worked, but then I see a notice that promotion
>> codes CAN be combined with other promotion codes! That seems unusual, as
>> most places only let you use one promo code. Anyway, a quick Google
>> 
>> https://couponfollow.com/site/lulu.com?ref=3497047
>> 
>> and I found another code for Lulu. First I tried JAN15, but that was
>> rejected. Then I tried FWD15, and that was accepted. So with the
>> combination of FWD15 and SHIPIT2018, it cost me a total of just £10.39
>> (GBP) with free shipping.
>> 
>> I did not bother trying any more codes, but perhaps with patience, the cost
>> could be reduced even more, but I was more than happy to pay that.
>> 
>> Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] Reference input on HP counters

[Jerry Hancock]

As far as lazy, I will check my equipment.

When the others that replied using the term “lock” or “locked”, what do you 
mean by that?  That for instance, the external reference is multiplied up 
directly to the internal frequency (IF I suppose) or is it phase locked, for 
instance?  I’m sure there are other cases.

I’m trying to differentiate between two cases:

1) I apply an external reference at 10Mhz (assumed all the devices require 
10Mhz at a certain level) and using a switch of some type (electronic or 
manual) the reference is now multiplied and manipulated directly to feed stages 
of the device.  In this way, the phase noise of the device is very much 
dependent on the external reference.  So if a noisy external is used it impacts 
the device across all time values.

2) I apply an external reference and another oscillator, maybe the default or 
supplied internal 10Mhz (like a 10811, etc) is now EFC adjusted to phase lock 
to the external reference.  In this way, I would think the phase noise of the 
device would have been impacted less by the external reference (under the time 
constant of the PLL or EFC loop. 

Either way, an oscillator with phase issues used as the external reference is 
going to have some impact on the device, correct?  I’m thinking of in the case 
where you use a GPSDO that doesn’t have a very good master oscillator.

Thanks,

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
je...@hanler.com
(415) 215-3779

> On Jan 7, 2018, at 8:05 AM, jimlux <jim...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> On 1/7/18 7:21 AM, Jerry Hancock wrote:
>> I’m being a little lazy as I can check the schematics, but in the general 
>> case, do HP counters, frequency generators, etc, switch to the external 
>> reference when one is available or discipline the internal oscillator?  Are 
>> there brands of test equipment that generally discipline vs switch?
> 
> 
> By the each.
> 
> Particularly for newer equipment it can be somewhat of a hybrid - the 
> Keysight 33622, for instance, seems to have some sort of frequency locked 
> loop (according to the manual and emails from Keysight).  It stays on the 
> internal reference, but the frequency is adjusted to match the external 
> reference (whether they adjust the oscillator, or reprogram a DDS, I'm not 
> sure).
> 
> I've seen test data, though, that seems to imply there's something else going 
> on - the phase noise is reduced when fed from a quiet external source, and if 
> it was a simple frequency locked loop, I don't think that would happen.
> 
> 
>> Third question, again generally, when you discipline an oscillator, what 
>> impact does this have on the oscillator's phase noise?  I assume this third 
>> question depends on the discipline loop (if I’m using the correct term).
>> Thanks
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[time-nuts] Reference input on HP counters

[Jerry Hancock]

I’m being a little lazy as I can check the schematics, but in the general case, 
do HP counters, frequency generators, etc, switch to the external reference 
when one is available or discipline the internal oscillator?  Are there brands 
of test equipment that generally discipline vs switch?

Third question, again generally, when you discipline an oscillator, what impact 
does this have on the oscillator's phase noise?  I assume this third question 
depends on the discipline loop (if I’m using the correct term).

Thanks
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Re: [time-nuts] A Lady H mystery

[Jerry Hancock]

polarized tantalum in correctly?

Regards,

Jerry

> On Dec 19, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Dan Rae  wrote:
> 
> I've been trying to get LH (V5) to control and set position for the GPS board 
> in one of my GPSDOs.  It is a Trimble "Lassen Ace III" Rx according to 
> itself.  LH auto detects it quickly enough, reports it as a TSIP receiver but 
> then shows a screen saying "LOG: OFF", a blank graph grid and nothing much 
> else.  No data apparently, so how did it autodetect?
> 
> I've been beating my head against this for two days; it used to work fine but 
> since a tantalum went on the TTL to RS232 convertor (since replaced along 
> with the receiver itself just in case) it won't perform for me.   LH performs 
> fine for all the other units here as it always has and the Trimble Monitor 
> program works on this one.
> 
> I'd really appreciate someone telling me gently what stupid thing I'm doing 
> or not doing :^)
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dan - ac6ao
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Simple open source microcontroller solution to tune DDS needed

[Jerry Hancock]

I have those 9954/9854 boards and the problem is the drivers for newer 
operating systems past XP aren’t available.  The AD9854/9954 boards were clones 
of the AD eval kits and you downloaded the eval kit software from AD.  I got 
the board(s) working with Windows 7 but it took a lot of screwing around.   I 
never got it working with Windows 10.  The other issue with those boards are 
the filters were set really high.  All DDS units need a filter on the output 
though I’m sure the term “all” can be debated.

If you have a need to generate a quadrature signal and have access to Windows 
7, or better yet, XPSP3, then yes, it is a decent option and seemed to work 
well.  The filters can be handled off-board, especially if you just need 10Mhz 
as BG7TBL has decent 10Mhz filters for $10 per.  I bought a couple and hung 
them on my RFTG-U REF0 and REF1 outputs and they make a really nice 10Mhz sine 
wave.

Jerry 



> On Dec 14, 2017, at 3:49 AM, ew via time-nuts  wrote:
> 
> Rick
> Please contact me off list we did a board for Corby to be used with the HP Rb 
> using a PIC but I would have to better understand your needs to figure out 
> what board to use.
> Bert Kehren
>  
> In a message dated 12/13/2017 4:06:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> artgod...@gmail.com writes:
> 
>  
> It's a bit bizarre that it uses Basic. I just remember my local ARC using
> it as a project sometime ago. Possibly in the 20th century. :)
> 
> 
> On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
> rich...@karlquist.com> wrote:
> 
>> This looks like a very good starting point. It's a superset
>> that I can just simplify.
>> 
>> Rick
>> 
>> 
>> On 12/13/2017 12:10 PM, Adrian Godwin wrote:
>> 
>>> Maybe this one ?
>>> 
>>> http://www.qsl.net/pa3ckr/bascom%20and%20avr/ad9951/index.html
>>> 
>>> There are probably many others
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 8:03 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
>>> rich...@karlquist.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I need a very simple controller to tune a DDS with up/down
 switches (imagine setting the time on a clock). A DDS
 chip, such as an AD9836 would go on a PC board and a couple
 of pushbuttons would tell the controller to tune up or
 down.
 
 Before reinventing this wheel, I thought I would see if
 anyone knows of a similar solution that can be leveraged.
 What I would like is both hardware and software, where
 the software could be edited to accommodate the up/down
 buttons. A last resort would be to write software from
 scratch. My software skills are extremely limited.
 Cutting and pasting code might work for me.
 
 I need to be able to embed this onto an existing PC board.
 I can't use a preexisting "daughter" card, other than
 to copy the design of the card.
 
 Rick Karlquist
 N6RK
 
 
 
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 ___
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>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Simple open source microcontroller solution to tune DDS needed

[Jerry Hancock]

Well, if you haven’t selected a DDS and you need I/Q, I would go with the tried 
and true 9854 as it has I/Q outputs and I thought a 12bit DAC so the resulting 
spurs and sfdr are lower than other chips, or were, as I think they have 14bit 
DACs on other chips now.  It also depends on the highest frequency range needed 
and power requirements as they all seem to run hot.  There is a new DDS, a 9910 
I think, that uses a 14bit DAC but it is a single output and would need to sync 
clocks if you need I/Q.  I have used the 9854 with PIC, Arduino and STM32 and 
assuming the frequency range is ok, I found it to be the better of the chips.  
I don’t think they have a replacement for it (I/Q with 14bit DAC would be 
great) but I haven’t looked lately.

The language is C but I think it has C++ and C# compilers out there.  Also, 
once you have the code tested on the Arduino you can just run it on the 
equivalent AVR chip and build your own board.  I don’t think there is a license 
or runtime compiler issue and if there is, I remember seeing a GNU compiler for 
the AVRs and Arduino.  My only point is that for prototyping and testing, the 
Arduino seems to be the easiest with tons of support and many, many adapters 
and I/O,  The STM32 boards are faster but the learning curve is just 
unbelievable.  It took me months to master those boards compared to minutes for 
the Arduino.

Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] Simple open source microcontroller solution to tune DDS needed

[Jerry Hancock]

I was using PIC chips to talk to AD9854 and 9851 and switched to the low cost 
Arduino boards as they are so much easier to program and have so much 
accessible I/O and adapter boards.  I know there is a lot of code out there for 
AD chips as it could be a little tricky to clock the bits out to the various 
registers.  The nice thing about the Arduino boards is that they have built in 
serial so whatever you write can be easily converted to USB control for both 
error logging and setting of parameters.  There are ethernet shields, wireless, 
etc.  There are a lot of AD9854 codes out there that can probably be used as a 
foundation for the AD9836.


> On Dec 13, 2017, at 12:10 PM, Adrian Godwin  wrote:
> 
> Maybe this one ?
> 
> http://www.qsl.net/pa3ckr/bascom%20and%20avr/ad9951/index.html
> 
> There are probably many others
> 
> 
> On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 8:03 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
> rich...@karlquist.com> wrote:
> 
>> I need a very simple controller to tune a DDS with up/down
>> switches (imagine setting the time on a clock).  A DDS
>> chip, such as an AD9836 would go on a PC board and a couple
>> of pushbuttons would tell the controller to tune up or
>> down.
>> 
>> Before reinventing this wheel, I thought I would see if
>> anyone knows of a similar solution that can be leveraged.
>> What I would like is both hardware and software, where
>> the software could be edited to accommodate the up/down
>> buttons.  A last resort would be to write software from
>> scratch.  My software skills are extremely limited.
>> Cutting and pasting code might work for me.
>> 
>> I need to be able to embed this onto an existing PC board.
>> I can't use a preexisting "daughter" card, other than
>> to copy the design of the card.
>> 
>> Rick Karlquist
>> N6RK
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Symmetricom X72 interface boards

[Jerry Hancock]

What do I owe you?

> On Dec 6, 2017, at 9:06 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> The X72 rubidium oscillator interface board sets have (finally) been shipped 
> to everybody that paid for them.  I had hoped to get them out a couple of 
> weeks ago, but ran into a couple of annoying snags...
> 
> First, the assembly house built a couple of test articles that were great and 
> were approved for production.  Over a week later they came back and said 
> "They're ready... except we can't do the through hole parts.  Our 
> through-hole machine is broken and we aren't going to fix it" (turns out they 
> sold the company assets to another company and were letting them deal with 
> it).   I wound up hand soldering them... lotsa fun there.
> 
> Next, it turned out the the MAX232A RS-232 chips I got in were wonky / fake / 
> haunted.   Luckily they are socketed.  I bought out the local supply of good 
> / genuine ones.   Ahh, such fun.  If anybody needs 50 sketchy MAX232A's...  I 
> can hook you up.
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Re: [time-nuts] Rubidium freq standard - temperature

[Jerry Hancock]

Mark, I agree.  I tried scoping some pins.  I see a few different levels and 
one pin has what looks like a clock signal with a period of about 4.2ms.  Other 
than that, hard to tell without a manual.

I know people went so far as to contact Perkin Elmer without luck, I had heard 
they had acquired EG

I wouldn’t mind sending one to someone that could do a better test on it.  I’ll 
play around with them if and when I get the TPLL setup working. 


> On Nov 30, 2017, at 9:39 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> I doubt that it would be a direct mapping to a 9-pin serial connector.  And 
> probably would not be outputting anything unless prompted.  It might be 
> useful to scope the pins and see if anything looks like serial data.  Even if 
> it has a serial port, without some kind of manual, it is probably useless.
> 
> If it not  RS-232 compatible voltage tolerant and you connect a +/- V RS-232 
> signal into it you could burn something out.
> 
> ---
> 
>> I opened it up, JT1 has 9 pins. What are the odds? I think I have to hook 
>> something up to it and see if there is anything on 2 or 3, no?
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Re: [time-nuts] Rubidium freq standard - temperature

[Jerry Hancock]

I opened it up, JT1 has 9 pins. What are the odds? I think I have to hook 
something up to it and see if there is anything on 2 or 3, no?

> On Nov 30, 2017, at 7:35 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
> 
> I see a jack labeled JT1.  It has about 8 pins I remember.  I wonder...
> 
> 
>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 7:11 PM, Mark Sims <hol...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> A lot Rb's from that era have TTL level serial interfaces that can drive 
>> most RS-232 ports directly.  The PRS-10, SRO100, and LPFRS are examples.
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Re: [time-nuts] Rubidium freq standard - temperature

[Jerry Hancock]

I see a jack labeled JT1.  It has about 8 pins I remember.  I wonder...


> On Nov 30, 2017, at 7:11 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> A lot Rb's from that era have TTL level serial interfaces that can drive most 
> RS-232 ports directly.  The PRS-10, SRO100, and LPFRS are examples.
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Re: [time-nuts] Rubidium freq standard - temperature

[Jerry Hancock]

Paul, send whatever you have to clist <mailto:cl...@hanler.com> at hanler 
(without the D) dot com

Also, the caps we replaced were only 4 electrolytics.  3 x 470uf 25v and a 
270uf at 16V.  I used a 330uf 25v for the later.

I’ve seen them for like $30 Canadian.  I think they are inexpensive due to the 
failure of the caps, no rs232,  no docs, etc.  I get great lamp voltage on 
mine, all over 10V if that says anything.  They seem stable but I don’t have 
the test setup needed or much to compare them to except my GPSDOs.  I hope to 
have a Cesium standard by end of year and I am building the TPLL test set.  But 
it seemed like there was some decent work done on the physics package.  Looks 
like it was all assembled by hand, then taped-up, sealed twice and clamped.

Thanks.  

Jerry

> On Nov 30, 2017, at 5:24 PM, paul swed <paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Jerry
> I have some dribs and drabs of details on the units I have. Happy to send
> whatever I have to you directly. Suspect its to large for FEBO. What I can
> tell is they must have been considered quite good and for military use. I
> haven't run mine alot because I was concerned about the temp like you. Nor
> have I really dug in. They just worked from day one.
> Granted maybe better if I look at the caps. The good thing about the unit
> is the connector is clearly labeled with the pin functions. So I was able
> to operate them right out of the hamfest. As I recall these were very very
> inexpensive.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
> 
>> Paul, The units Gilbert gave me were TS-RFS.  They are fairly large.  The
>> physics end is about 5”x2”x2" and overall length about 9”.  They lock
>> pretty quickly now that I’ve replace the caps.  They can drive 50ohms
>> pretty hard, outputting a square wave.  I’m thinking of bolting on some
>> fins to the physics end. Just two points: 1) it would be nice to dial them
>> in closer; and 2) I wish I had equipment to test them more accurately.  I’m
>> working on building one of the Tight PLL test sets to solve #2.  Gilbert
>> suggested we look to see if we could tap into the field current somehow to
>> set the frequency more accurately.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 30, 2017, at 3:44 PM, paul swed <paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Jerry
>>> You have some EG RBs. Thats great news. Now I am not alone. I have 2
>> also
>>> that work. I have found little details on them.
>>> That said I believe they are intended to be mounted on a heat sink. One
>> end
>>> surely looks like that whats would be done.
>>> I believe mine are LCR-10-T. Might have to double check that.
>>> Regards
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I was able to get all 5 of these EG Rubidium Frequency Standards
>> running
>>>> by replacing the caps as another member found.  They have a large
>> heatsink
>>>> on them, no fins, and are running at 43C.  Is that too hot?  Should I
>> bolt
>>>> them down to a larger heatsink?  They consume a little over 9w after
>> they
>>>> lock, about double that while warming up.
>>>> 
>>>> The only other issue I see is that the 8bit frequency setting doesn’t
>>>> allow me to set the frequency closer than 5E-11.  I don’t know if this
>> is
>>>> good for these units and RFS in general or not.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks.
>>>> 
>>>> Jerry
>>>> 
>>>> [/begin buttkissing]
>>>> 
>>>> PS:  I have learned quite a bit from this group in the past couple of
>>>> months.  John Miles, Gilbert, Mark Sims, Bob, etc, etc have been a lot
>> of
>>>> help and have added a lot of enjoyment to my hobby.
>>>> 
>>>> [/end buttkissing]
>>>> 
>>>> ___
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>>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Rubidium freq standard - temperature

[Jerry Hancock]

1) Model number is TS-RFS and they vary for series from A to H, assuming the 
series is linear as I only have 5 of them.
2) No manual.
3) There is an 8 bit dip switch with a maximum range of about 10mhz and a step 
of .39mhz. I might have these off by a factor of 10 but I was able to set two 
of mine to within 5E-11.  The dip is located near a micro of some kind but it 
is a resistive binary ladder that could be just positioned there.  If it is 
setting current then it would be easy to dial it closer I believe.
4) I don’t see a place for an RS232 output nor recognize any of the usual 
suspect drivers.


> On Nov 30, 2017, at 4:49 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> 43C seems reasonable for the baseplate temperature.
> 
> What is the model number for these?   Do you have a manual?   How are you 
> setting the frequency?I just got in a Spectratime SRO100 and am adding 
> support for it to Lady Heather.   I may also do the LPFRS which may be 
> related to yours.
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Re: [time-nuts] Rubidium freq standard - temperature

[Jerry Hancock]

Paul, The units Gilbert gave me were TS-RFS.  They are fairly large.  The 
physics end is about 5”x2”x2" and overall length about 9”.  They lock pretty 
quickly now that I’ve replace the caps.  They can drive 50ohms pretty hard, 
outputting a square wave.  I’m thinking of bolting on some fins to the physics 
end. Just two points: 1) it would be nice to dial them in closer; and 2) I wish 
I had equipment to test them more accurately.  I’m working on building one of 
the Tight PLL test sets to solve #2.  Gilbert suggested we look to see if we 
could tap into the field current somehow to set the frequency more accurately.


> On Nov 30, 2017, at 3:44 PM, paul swed <paulsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Jerry
> You have some EG RBs. Thats great news. Now I am not alone. I have 2 also
> that work. I have found little details on them.
> That said I believe they are intended to be mounted on a heat sink. One end
> surely looks like that whats would be done.
> I believe mine are LCR-10-T. Might have to double check that.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
> 
>> I was able to get all 5 of these EG Rubidium Frequency Standards running
>> by replacing the caps as another member found.  They have a large heatsink
>> on them, no fins, and are running at 43C.  Is that too hot?  Should I bolt
>> them down to a larger heatsink?  They consume a little over 9w after they
>> lock, about double that while warming up.
>> 
>> The only other issue I see is that the 8bit frequency setting doesn’t
>> allow me to set the frequency closer than 5E-11.  I don’t know if this is
>> good for these units and RFS in general or not.
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> Jerry
>> 
>> [/begin buttkissing]
>> 
>> PS:  I have learned quite a bit from this group in the past couple of
>> months.  John Miles, Gilbert, Mark Sims, Bob, etc, etc have been a lot of
>> help and have added a lot of enjoyment to my hobby.
>> 
>> [/end buttkissing]
>> 
>> ___
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>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
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[time-nuts] Rubidium freq standard - temperature

[Jerry Hancock]

I was able to get all 5 of these EG Rubidium Frequency Standards running by 
replacing the caps as another member found.  They have a large heatsink on 
them, no fins, and are running at 43C.  Is that too hot?  Should I bolt them 
down to a larger heatsink?  They consume a little over 9w after they lock, 
about double that while warming up.

The only other issue I see is that the 8bit frequency setting doesn’t allow me 
to set the frequency closer than 5E-11.  I don’t know if this is good for these 
units and RFS in general or not.

Thanks.

Jerry

[/begin buttkissing]

PS:  I have learned quite a bit from this group in the past couple of months.  
John Miles, Gilbert, Mark Sims, Bob, etc, etc have been a lot of help and have 
added a lot of enjoyment to my hobby.  

[/end buttkissing]

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Re: [time-nuts] Symmetricom X72 rubidium oscillator breakout board now avaiable

[Jerry Hancock]

Well, I ordered one this morning and I am reading the doc I found online.  
Please save a set of your boards and if you want to send me some heatsinks, 
I’ll mill them for everyone.


Regards,

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
je...@hanler.com
(415) 215-3779

> On Nov 20, 2017, at 12:29 AM, Mark Sims <hol...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Maybe:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Symmetricom-X72-Rubidium-Oscillator-10-32V-DC-10MHz-USED/132116702248?epid=1023910441=item1ec2c4e428:g:2p8AAOSwXYtYvKWc
> 
> I don't know if RDR Electronics still have any X72's.
> 
> There used to be a lot of X72's for sale that were pulled from something.  
> They came with an adapter board that only broke out 16 of the 26 pins.  I 
> bought a couple... they had less than 1000 hours of run time on them.
> 
> My signal board has support for the SA22.c rubidium, but I need to figure out 
> how to connect to that horrid connector that is in the middle of the 
> baseplate.   I am also laying out an interface board for the Spectratime 
> SRO-100 rubidium.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Next upgrade

[Jerry Hancock]

Based on all the input I think I am going to just save up my mad money for a 
Cesium and be done with it.  (Doubt I’ll ever be “done with it”).


> On Nov 22, 2017, at 6:12 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> The PRS-10 does have disciplining parameters that you can tweak.   But the 
> documentation is rather spotty on how to go about choosing good values.
> 
> Also, I doubt that putting a Rb in an OCXO Lucent box would work well.   Rb 
> loop parameters (like time constant) are rather different for the two classes 
> of oscillator.
> 
> ---
> 
>> the disciplining loop seems to be a bit aggressive so that the poor 
>> oscillator
> gets jerked around quite a bit by the GPS
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Re: [time-nuts] Next upgrade

[Jerry Hancock]

Adrian, when you stated it didn’t work, what were the results?  

I had mine running in HA mode, if you can call it that, because only one has a 
GPS.  Actually now that I think about it, the separate but modified REF0 and 
modified REF1, assuming separate power and antennas, is probably closer to HA 
than the original application.  I have both mine running now with Lady Heather 
tracking each and I’ve been playing around with comparisons.  Now in my case, 
if either goes down for any reason the other can take over.  I guess in order 
to make them truly HA, we would need a diode or relay switched transfer to the 
active unit.

Jerry

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 4:10 PM, Adrian Godwin <artgod...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Yes, I cross-connected  the pins, but I didn't cut any short.
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 11:36 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> I have run a number of the REF0 / REF1 combos. They all seem to work fine.
>> The standard cable has some odd short pins on it. If you are not hot
>> plugging
>> the cable I don’t think they matter at all. If anything, the system is
>> more reliable
>> with a normal length pin on the connector.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Nov 22, 2017, at 6:08 PM, Adrian Godwin <artgod...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I've got several of the Ref 0 boxes but none of the Ref 1. I've added an
>>> Oncore GPS receiver to one of them as per Peter Garde's notes and it
>> works
>>> well.
>>> 
>>> But I'd like it to run with an unmodified Ref 0 too in the ref0/ref1
>>> configuration. Not that I need an HA reference but just for interest.
>> I've
>>> only had a quick look so far and found that connecting the two together
>>> with a 15-pin cable didn't work.
>>> 
>>> Has anyone looked into this ?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 11:01 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Nov 22, 2017, at 5:16 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Three questions:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1) Now that I’ve split my Lucent RFTG-U into a REF0 and REF1 unit with
>>>> both supplying 10Mhz and 1PPS, is there a way to combine the outputs or
>>>> some other technique to improve the short and/or long term performance?
>>>> 
>>>> You can monitor one against the other. Ideally you would want three
>>>> GPSDO’s and a
>>>> monitoring setup. That way you can figure out which of the three has
>> gone
>>>> bad.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 2) I’ve become interested in Rubidium Disciplined Oscillators recently
>>>> and was now thinking of purchasing one of the PRS-10 that I see on
>> Ebay. If
>>>> I did that and replaced one of the DOCXOs from one of the Lucent boxes,
>>>> what impact would this have on the overall performance both with and
>>>> without (when in hold-over)?
>>>> 
>>>> If you go into holdover, you are the exception. Most setups rarely go
>> into
>>>> holdover. When they
>>>> do, it’s because a hurricane just went over the house. Generally that’s
>>>> not when the focus is going
>>>> to be on timing experiments.
>>>> 
>>>>> Basically, is it worth the money to upgrade one of the boxes to a
>>>> Rubidium disciplined oscillator assuming the GPS signal is rarely lost?
>>>> 
>>>> Not worth the money if you are only looking at holdover and have a
>> typical
>>>> setup.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 3) Figuring the PRS-10 will cost around $250 when all is said and done,
>>>> is there a better option to improve my GPSDO system?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Disciplining implies continuously correcting. Rb standards age much less
>>>> than a typical
>>>> OCXO. Oddly enough their temperature stability may not be as good as a
>>>> high end
>>>> DOCXO. It is fairly common to try to stabilize the environment your
>>>> standards operate in.
>>>> To the extent you are successful this reduces the need to deal with
>>>> temperature.
>>>> 
>>>> The net effect is that disciplining an Rb at a rate (filter / control
>> loop
>>>> / manual tweak) of less than
>>>> a few days actually makes the Rb worse. Coming up with software to “back
>>&

Re: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting

[Jerry Hancock]

Ralph, did I miss something or didn’t you use a pair of the Discovery boards?

> On Nov 22, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Ralph Devoe  wrote:
> 
> Hi Time-nuts and Attila,
> Thanks for the very interesting and informative criticisms. That
> is what I was looking for.  I don't agree with most of them, but I need
> some time to work out some detailed answers.
>  To focus on the forest instead of the trees:  The method uses a
> $300 student scope (Digilent Analog discovery- a very fine product), which
> any skilled amateur can modify in a weekend, and produce a device which is
> 10-100 times better than the expensive counters we are used to using.  The
> software contains only 125 lines of Python and  pretty much anyone can
> write their own. In practice this device is much easier to use than my
> 53132a.
> 
> Ralph
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Re: [time-nuts] Next upgrade

[Jerry Hancock]

The 15pin cable has to be cross-connected.  Maybe that is your problem?

The pin connections were posted not that long ago.  It is like 1-15; 2-14; 
3-13; 4-12; 5-11; 6-10; 7-9; 8-8; 9-7; 10-6;11-5; etc.


> On Nov 22, 2017, at 3:08 PM, Adrian Godwin <artgod...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I've got several of the Ref 0 boxes but none of the Ref 1. I've added an
> Oncore GPS receiver to one of them as per Peter Garde's notes and it works
> well.
> 
> But I'd like it to run with an unmodified Ref 0 too in the ref0/ref1
> configuration. Not that I need an HA reference but just for interest. I've
> only had a quick look so far and found that connecting the two together
> with a 15-pin cable didn't work.
> 
> Has anyone looked into this ?
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 11:01 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 22, 2017, at 5:16 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Three questions:
>>> 
>>> 1) Now that I’ve split my Lucent RFTG-U into a REF0 and REF1 unit with
>> both supplying 10Mhz and 1PPS, is there a way to combine the outputs or
>> some other technique to improve the short and/or long term performance?
>> 
>> You can monitor one against the other. Ideally you would want three
>> GPSDO’s and a
>> monitoring setup. That way you can figure out which of the three has gone
>> bad.
>> 
>>> 
>>> 2) I’ve become interested in Rubidium Disciplined Oscillators recently
>> and was now thinking of purchasing one of the PRS-10 that I see on Ebay. If
>> I did that and replaced one of the DOCXOs from one of the Lucent boxes,
>> what impact would this have on the overall performance both with and
>> without (when in hold-over)?
>> 
>> If you go into holdover, you are the exception. Most setups rarely go into
>> holdover. When they
>> do, it’s because a hurricane just went over the house. Generally that’s
>> not when the focus is going
>> to be on timing experiments.
>> 
>>> Basically, is it worth the money to upgrade one of the boxes to a
>> Rubidium disciplined oscillator assuming the GPS signal is rarely lost?
>> 
>> Not worth the money if you are only looking at holdover and have a typical
>> setup.
>> 
>>> 
>>> 3) Figuring the PRS-10 will cost around $250 when all is said and done,
>> is there a better option to improve my GPSDO system?
>> 
>> 
>> Disciplining implies continuously correcting. Rb standards age much less
>> than a typical
>> OCXO. Oddly enough their temperature stability may not be as good as a
>> high end
>> DOCXO. It is fairly common to try to stabilize the environment your
>> standards operate in.
>> To the extent you are successful this reduces the need to deal with
>> temperature.
>> 
>> The net effect is that disciplining an Rb at a rate (filter / control loop
>> / manual tweak) of less than
>> a few days actually makes the Rb worse. Coming up with software to “back
>> off” on the tuning is
>> not as simple as it might seem.
>> 
>> This comes back to the fact that the GPS signal (or any of the sat
>> signals) are quite noisy. You
>> need to average them over a *long* time to get good performance. Rb’s are
>> enough better than
>> a GPSDO OCXO that the time ranges really stretch out ….
>> 
>>> 
>>> I basically use the GPSDO as a reference for any equipment that takes an
>> input. I have no monetary need for a reference, just an interest.
>> 
>> For most normal test equipment, a GPSDO output is “plenty good enough”. As
>> a source for fancy
>> timing experiments … maybe not so much. As a phase noise reference or a
>> spur free source for
>> microwave games … also not the best way to go.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Thanks.
>>> 
>>> Jerry
>>> 
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[time-nuts] Next upgrade

[Jerry Hancock]

Three questions:

1) Now that I’ve split my Lucent RFTG-U into a REF0 and REF1 unit with both 
supplying 10Mhz and 1PPS, is there a way to combine the outputs or some other 
technique to improve the short and/or long term performance?

2) I’ve become interested in Rubidium Disciplined Oscillators recently and was 
now thinking of purchasing one of the PRS-10 that I see on Ebay. If I did that 
and replaced one of the DOCXOs from one of the Lucent boxes, what impact would 
this have on the overall performance both with and without (when in hold-over)? 
 Basically, is it worth the money to upgrade one of the boxes to a Rubidium 
disciplined oscillator assuming the GPS signal is rarely lost?

3) Figuring the PRS-10 will cost around $250 when all is said and done, is 
there a better option to improve my GPSDO system? 

I basically use the GPSDO as a reference for any equipment that takes an input. 
I have no monetary need for a reference, just an interest.

Thanks.

Jerry

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Re: [time-nuts] X72 Heatsink

[Jerry Hancock]

Mark, I don’t know if I want to do 150 of these like the last time I signed-up 
for a project like this, but if someone wants their heatsink drilled and 
milled, send them to me with instructions for the cost of shipping back.

If you want to ship the entire case to me, I’ll drill and mill and tap them as 
needed and ship them to the users.  They look like they will fit in a small 
flat rate box.  I think the going rate is like $6 after PayPal fees.

Jerry

> On Nov 20, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> I stopped by a local electronics store today and came across a heatsink that 
> is the perfect size for the X72.  To mount the X72 to it you would need to 
> drill four holes in the corners and do a little Dremel work on the outer fins 
> to get to the screw heads.   The store owner says he has a case of them in 
> the warehouse and will dig them out.  I should know more this weekend.
> 
> If it works out, I can include one with the X72 breakout boards for probably 
> $7 in the US.  I need to see what it would add to the overseas shipping.  
> They weigh around 260 
> grams.___
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Re: [time-nuts] Why discipline Rubidium oscillator?

[Jerry Hancock]

Thanks, Bob, I’ll have to start looking now. 

I’ve been looking for other counters, I only have 5371a x 2 and 5335a x 2 and 
some other TeK modules.  I went back and was reading the time-nut counter 
thread from 2008 and will have to keep looking for something I want to afford.

Tonight I was plotting one of the rubidium modules Gilbert gave me against my 
Lucent GPSDO.  I was just measuring frequency and I had some glitches that I 
think are from triggering.  The stdev on some 2 hours runs were .0017 with a 
frequency of 9,999,999.956 average.  I have a new power supply coming tomorrow 
and I’ll be able to move it into a room where I can try to tweak it closer to 
10M.

The Adev plot of the Frequency was sort of weird looking, sort of like a 
flattened “U” with the dip around 10E-15.  I would have thought it should be 
more like a typical downward sloping line. I’ll have to read up and see what 
this indicates.

So much to learn, so little time.

Thanks for all the pointers. Someone should write a book, “Time-nuttery for 
dummies”.  

Jerry


> On Nov 20, 2017, at 9:54 PM, Bob Bownes <bow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Cost of a cesium clock can go from less than you pay for a pair of doxco‘s to 
> many tens of thousands. I think 5071’s are in 
> 
>> On Nov 20, 2017, at 23:50, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I read up on the GPS L1/L2 and I think there is an L5.
>> 
>> And when you say “on the market” the real question is “can be purchased for 
>> 1/20th the price of new” like all the other re-purposed toys we buy,
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Jerry
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 20, 2017, at 6:43 PM, Dana Whitlow <k8yumdoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Why discipline Rubidium oscillator?

[Jerry Hancock]

I read up on the GPS L1/L2 and I think there is an L5.

And when you say “on the market” the real question is “can be purchased for 
1/20th the price of new” like all the other re-purposed toys we buy,

Regards,

Jerry


> On Nov 20, 2017, at 6:43 PM, Dana Whitlow  wrote:
> 
> 

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Re: [time-nuts] Why discipline Rubidium oscillator?

[Jerry Hancock]

Not to junk up the mailboxes, but I have the multiple GPSDOs.  Don’t know what 
you mean by L1/L2 GPSDO, is that a quality statement?  

Also, what would the next step cost me for a Cesium Beam?  Roughly?  And what 
order of magnitude improvement would that be for the cost?  Have to do a 
cost/benefit analysis for the wife...


> On Nov 20, 2017, at 4:09 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> Ummm ….. e ….. multiple GPSDO’s …. L1/L2 GPSDO(s) …. Cs standard (s) … 
> Maser(s) …. Ensembles of all of the above ….
> 
> There’s *lots* of steps still to take ….
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Nov 20, 2017, at 6:31 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
>> 
>> One step at a time.
>> 
>> 2yrs ago when the time-bug hit, I had a crystal oscillator.  6 months later, 
>> DOCXO then GPSDO then Rubidium soon to be with GPSDO and there aren’t too 
>> many steps after that…
>> 
>> I also gave my brother the bug the other day…
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 20, 2017, at 3:05 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> It’s very much a “somewhere near that number” sort of thing with an Rb. The 
>>> “thing” you are looking at is quantum mechanical in nature. Unfortunately 
>>> that
>>> by its self does not make it perfect. A beam tube (as opposed to a gas 
>>> cell) 
>>> isolates things better. 
>>> 
>>> A 5061 is a beam tube device. A 5065 is gas cell based. It is very 
>>> important to note that
>>> accuracy and stability are two different things …. The beam tube is more 
>>> accurate. 
>>> The gas cell is more stable (over some range of tau). 
>>> 
>>> A normal Rb standard has a bit of this and that in the bulb. These other 
>>> gasses
>>> help in various ways. They each also add a bit of “pull” to the frequency 
>>> one way
>>> or the other. They get you away from your “magic number” but the benefits 
>>> they
>>> deliver are worth the trouble. The exact gas mix gets into the “secret 
>>> sauce” of
>>> the Rb manufacturer. They each optimize things a bit differently. The walls 
>>> of the bulb get into the act ….
>>> 
>>> Beam standards are actually a bit old these days. The more modern approach 
>>> would be a fountain (toss the ion straight up and let it fall back to you). 
>>> An even 
>>> more modern approach would be a trapped ion standard. The amount of money
>>> involved goes up dramatically with each of those steps. You get rid of this 
>>> and 
>>> that subtle effect with each improvement. Accuracy gets better and better. 
>>> 
>>> Lots of choices !!!
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>>> On Nov 20, 2017, at 3:28 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Bob, I was referring to the rubidium standard of 6834682610.904 Hz.  For 
>>>> some reason I thought it was closer to 9Ghz.
>>>> 
>>>> I assume then rubidium standards oscillate (if that is the correct term) 
>>>> somewhere around that number but not exact or is it in the detection where 
>>>> things fall down?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Nov 20, 2017, at 11:40 AM, Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi
>>>>> 
>>>>> There is no direct relation for an Rb to 10 MYz. Cs beam tubes are what 
>>>>> have a direct relation. 
>>>>> Even then, the qualifier is “under standard conditions”. They are 
>>>>> sensitive to magnetic field. Rb’s
>>>>> also are sensitive to magnetic field. Both can be tuned by varying the 
>>>>> field. In the case of an Rb
>>>>> that also takes care of a multitude of other issues.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In the case of Rb, there is a distribution of cells coming out of the 
>>>>> manufacturing process. Some
>>>>> are pretty close to the “right” frequency. Others are way off (as in 
>>>>> 100’s of KHz or more). All of them
>>>>> are capable of meeting the required specs. DDS techniques allow those 
>>>>> cells to be used in a 
>>>>> production part. That increases the yield and thus drops the production 
>>>>> cost. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Since you now magically have a DDS in the Rb, you can do all sorts of 
>>>>> interesting things. If you
>>>>> suddenly need a 9.99900 MHz stand

Re: [time-nuts] Why discipline Rubidium oscillator?

[Jerry Hancock]

One step at a time.

2yrs ago when the time-bug hit, I had a crystal oscillator.  6 months later, 
DOCXO then GPSDO then Rubidium soon to be with GPSDO and there aren’t too many 
steps after that…

I also gave my brother the bug the other day…



> On Nov 20, 2017, at 3:05 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> It’s very much a “somewhere near that number” sort of thing with an Rb. The 
> “thing” you are looking at is quantum mechanical in nature. Unfortunately that
> by its self does not make it perfect. A beam tube (as opposed to a gas cell) 
> isolates things better. 
> 
> A 5061 is a beam tube device. A 5065 is gas cell based. It is very important 
> to note that
> accuracy and stability are two different things …. The beam tube is more 
> accurate. 
> The gas cell is more stable (over some range of tau). 
> 
> A normal Rb standard has a bit of this and that in the bulb. These other 
> gasses
> help in various ways. They each also add a bit of “pull” to the frequency one 
> way
> or the other. They get you away from your “magic number” but the benefits they
> deliver are worth the trouble. The exact gas mix gets into the “secret sauce” 
> of
> the Rb manufacturer. They each optimize things a bit differently. The walls 
> of the bulb get into the act ….
> 
> Beam standards are actually a bit old these days. The more modern approach 
> would be a fountain (toss the ion straight up and let it fall back to you). 
> An even 
> more modern approach would be a trapped ion standard. The amount of money
> involved goes up dramatically with each of those steps. You get rid of this 
> and 
> that subtle effect with each improvement. Accuracy gets better and better. 
> 
> Lots of choices !!!
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Nov 20, 2017, at 3:28 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Bob, I was referring to the rubidium standard of 6834682610.904 Hz.  For 
>> some reason I thought it was closer to 9Ghz.
>> 
>> I assume then rubidium standards oscillate (if that is the correct term) 
>> somewhere around that number but not exact or is it in the detection where 
>> things fall down?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 20, 2017, at 11:40 AM, Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> There is no direct relation for an Rb to 10 MYz. Cs beam tubes are what 
>>> have a direct relation. 
>>> Even then, the qualifier is “under standard conditions”. They are sensitive 
>>> to magnetic field. Rb’s
>>> also are sensitive to magnetic field. Both can be tuned by varying the 
>>> field. In the case of an Rb
>>> that also takes care of a multitude of other issues.
>>> 
>>> In the case of Rb, there is a distribution of cells coming out of the 
>>> manufacturing process. Some
>>> are pretty close to the “right” frequency. Others are way off (as in 100’s 
>>> of KHz or more). All of them
>>> are capable of meeting the required specs. DDS techniques allow those cells 
>>> to be used in a 
>>> production part. That increases the yield and thus drops the production 
>>> cost. 
>>> 
>>> Since you now magically have a DDS in the Rb, you can do all sorts of 
>>> interesting things. If you
>>> suddenly need a 9.99900 MHz standard …. here it is … If you need to do 
>>> temperature compensation 
>>> via a lookup table … it just takes a bit of testing and some code to make 
>>> it happen. Indeed, the DDS
>>> does also give you some issues. Without some sort of cleanup oscillator, 
>>> you will have spurs and 
>>> phase noise on the output.
>>> 
>>> Lots of fun ….
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Nov 20, 2017, at 1:34 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I know this is going to sound dumb as I know many GPSDOs had rubidium 
>>>> oscillators in them.  I can see why, in that during holdover, they would 
>>>> tend to be more stable vs others, but given that there is a direct 
>>>> mathematical relationship between the rubidium frequency and potentially 
>>>> the 10Mhz desired output frequency, why do they have to be disciplined or 
>>>> better yet, what advantage does it bring?  Also, I can see how you 
>>>> discipline a DOCXO with the external voltage, how do you discipline a 
>>>> rubidium?  Pulse stretching?  
>>>> 
>>>> I guess I don’t understand how the technology works, but it seems like an 
>>>> RF signal is swept that would be used to detect a di

Re: [time-nuts] Why discipline Rubidium oscillator?

[Jerry Hancock]

Bob, I was referring to the rubidium standard of 6834682610.904 Hz.  For some 
reason I thought it was closer to 9Ghz.

I assume then rubidium standards oscillate (if that is the correct term) 
somewhere around that number but not exact or is it in the detection where 
things fall down?



> On Nov 20, 2017, at 11:40 AM, Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> There is no direct relation for an Rb to 10 MYz. Cs beam tubes are what have 
> a direct relation. 
> Even then, the qualifier is “under standard conditions”. They are sensitive 
> to magnetic field. Rb’s
> also are sensitive to magnetic field. Both can be tuned by varying the field. 
> In the case of an Rb
> that also takes care of a multitude of other issues.
> 
> In the case of Rb, there is a distribution of cells coming out of the 
> manufacturing process. Some
> are pretty close to the “right” frequency. Others are way off (as in 100’s of 
> KHz or more). All of them
> are capable of meeting the required specs. DDS techniques allow those cells 
> to be used in a 
> production part. That increases the yield and thus drops the production cost. 
> 
> Since you now magically have a DDS in the Rb, you can do all sorts of 
> interesting things. If you
> suddenly need a 9.99900 MHz standard …. here it is … If you need to do 
> temperature compensation 
> via a lookup table … it just takes a bit of testing and some code to make it 
> happen. Indeed, the DDS
> does also give you some issues. Without some sort of cleanup oscillator, you 
> will have spurs and 
> phase noise on the output.
> 
> Lots of fun ….
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
>> On Nov 20, 2017, at 1:34 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I know this is going to sound dumb as I know many GPSDOs had rubidium 
>> oscillators in them.  I can see why, in that during holdover, they would 
>> tend to be more stable vs others, but given that there is a direct 
>> mathematical relationship between the rubidium frequency and potentially the 
>> 10Mhz desired output frequency, why do they have to be disciplined or better 
>> yet, what advantage does it bring?  Also, I can see how you discipline a 
>> DOCXO with the external voltage, how do you discipline a rubidium?  Pulse 
>> stretching?  
>> 
>> I guess I don’t understand how the technology works, but it seems like an RF 
>> signal is swept that would be used to detect a dip at a pretty well defined 
>> frequency.  This dip can be used to discipline the oscillator to something 
>> like 9Ghz or a factor of what, 900+ times better than 10Mhz.  So wouldn’t 
>> that be able to get your desired 10Mhz to 10,000,000.001 or pretty much my 
>> level of measurement?  Or does is the dip not quite that precise?  If you 
>> can point me to a write-up on this I’ll go away.
>> 
>> Thanks to Gilbert for providing me with at least one rubidium oscillator 
>> that is working out of 5 though 2 others seems to stay locked for a few 
>> hours during my testing.
>> 
>> Jerry
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[time-nuts] Why discipline Rubidium oscillator?

[Jerry Hancock]

I know this is going to sound dumb as I know many GPSDOs had rubidium 
oscillators in them.  I can see why, in that during holdover, they would tend 
to be more stable vs others, but given that there is a direct mathematical 
relationship between the rubidium frequency and potentially the 10Mhz desired 
output frequency, why do they have to be disciplined or better yet, what 
advantage does it bring?  Also, I can see how you discipline a DOCXO with the 
external voltage, how do you discipline a rubidium?  Pulse stretching?  

I guess I don’t understand how the technology works, but it seems like an RF 
signal is swept that would be used to detect a dip at a pretty well defined 
frequency.  This dip can be used to discipline the oscillator to something like 
9Ghz or a factor of what, 900+ times better than 10Mhz.  So wouldn’t that be 
able to get your desired 10Mhz to 10,000,000.001 or pretty much my level of 
measurement?  Or does is the dip not quite that precise?  If you can point me 
to a write-up on this I’ll go away.

Thanks to Gilbert for providing me with at least one rubidium oscillator that 
is working out of 5 though 2 others seems to stay locked for a few hours during 
my testing.

Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] Symmetricom X72 rubidium oscillator breakout board now available

[Jerry Hancock]

Mark, do you have an inexpensive sour for the X72?
Regards,

Jerry


> On Nov 19, 2017, at 4:43 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> I have finished my breakout boards for the X72 oscillator.   It consists of 
> two boards connected by a ribbon cable (or you can remove a header and 
> replace with a female and directly connect them or solder the boards 
> together).   Power input is through a 2.1mm barrel connector.  Input caps are 
> rated at 25V, so a max 15V input is suggested.  You can  power it via either 
> board... the connections are in parallel. 
> 
> The first board is a small interface board board that plugs into the X72 and 
> breaks out all 26 connections to a 2x13 pin 0.1" pin header.  It also has 
> connections for the SERVICE, LOCK, and 1PPS signals  driven through 1K 
> resistors... can be used to drive LEDs, etc.  Note the 1PPS signal would need 
> to be stretched to drive an LED and the LOCK polarity is such that LOCK is 
> indicated by the LED being off.
> 
> The second board is a breakout board that has an RS-232 interface (with 
> selectable 1PPS polarity signal and optional raw/5V regulated power signal 
> available).  It also has BNC connectors for the 1PPS IN, 1PPS out,  EFC IN,  
> 10 MHz output, and selectable user programable ACMOS frequency output / FXO 
> 60 MHz oscillator output.  The breakout board also has 
> 
> The boards are assembled and include a 200 mm long ribbon cable (photo shows 
> a shorter cable.  The price is $25 per set shipped in the US.  Overseas 
> shipping is an additional $10 for any quantity.  Contact me off list if 
> interested.___
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[time-nuts] Read blocks from 5371a

[Jerry Hancock]

I’ve been playing around comparing my REF0/REF1 with my 5371a.  I wrote some 
code that sets the interval time of 1 second and I can read the first block of 
data of up to 1000 samples (1000 seconds).  All is great.  I can’t figure out 
though, how to read the next block assuming I told it to read for instance 10 
blocks.  I can loop the code but thought what the heck, have the 5371a do it, 
put the code to sleep until it is about time for it to finish.  

This is over GPIB.  I’ve stared at the docs, etc. You would think there should 
be a command like “read next block’.

Thanks

Jerry


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Re: [time-nuts] Absolute phase

[Jerry Hancock]

When I first powered them on together, they seemed to drift all over the place 
with regards to relative phase.  For the past hour now, they are keeping around 
7 degrees and sometimes dropping to around 4.  I think that is pretty amazing 
given all the stuff between the source and final display.  I have the cursors 
on them now and they are sitting at 2ns difference.  I am going to figure out 
how to plot this possibly using Timelab and my HP 5371a.


> On Nov 17, 2017, at 2:29 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> As the “filter” (or control loop) in some GPSDO’s scales, it impacts the 
> degree 
> of “agreement” between the GPSDO’s. Not all GPSDO’s scale filters so not all 
> exhibit the behavior. The HP / Symmetricom  Z38xx units are one family that 
> do this kind of scaling. 
> 
> As the scale moves longer (time) or narrower (frequency) the ADEV improves.
> This also depends a bit on the quality of the OCXO you have and the 
> environment
> the GPSDO is in. Somewhat counter intuitively, the level of agreement gets 
> worse
> as the ADEV improves. As the time agreement gets worse and ADEV gets better, 
> the frequency accuracy (in the frequency nut sense) gets better. 
> 
> Again - not all GPSDO’s do this sort of thing. 
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Nov 17, 2017, at 5:15 PM, Arthur Dent  wrote:
>> 
>> I have 2 antennas mounted on opposite ends of a roof and both of them feed
>> commercial GPS DA/splitters and I can have as many as 10 receivers running
>> at one time for testing. I have also used one of the high frequency type F
>> TV passive splitters with one D.C. feed through and added 200-300 ohm
>> resistors from the other outputs to ground. All this has seemed to work
>> just fine but one of the older receivers apparently radiated its L.O. out
>> the antenna coax and would interfere with a couple of other receivers I
>> connected to the same DA.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Connecting one 10 Mhz references to the external trigger on my scope and
>> feeding 2 other GPS receivers to the input channels (all from the same
>> antenna DA), I can watch the slow drift at 2 ns/div with respect to the
>> trigger and sometimes one receiver drift one way as the other receiver
>> drifts in the opposite direction and sometimes they drift the same way.  The
>> drift is generally less than 2 ns but it is there and I assume it depends
>> on what the internal ‘housekeeping’ of the receiver is doing and what birds
>> they are using. So bottom line, they aren’t ‘locked’ to each other but are
>> generally close.
>> 
>> 
>> -Arthur
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Re: [time-nuts] Absolute phase

[Jerry Hancock]

I agree.  I disconnected it after wondering about the active antenna bias.


> On Nov 17, 2017, at 12:35 PM, Magnus Danielson <mag...@rubidium.se> wrote:
> 
> Can work, can go wrong.
> 
> One should be careful and think it though.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 11/17/2017 09:25 PM, Jerry Hancock wrote:
>> I figured, what the heck, and just used a BNC T and it’s working.
>>> On Nov 17, 2017, at 12:20 PM, Magnus Danielson <mag...@rubidium.se> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> The reason I mention sharing antenna is that it takes out the difference 
>>> that is natural from having different antennas and the difference in 
>>> multipath.
>>> 
>>> Sharing antenna has its own set of problems, so a suitable antenna splitter 
>>> was assumed. Effectively you need to bypass DC to power the antenna, you 
>>> need to amplify the signal to compensate for the loss due to the splitter, 
>>> and it needs to look like an antenna to the GPS receiver, so the antenna 
>>> alarm does not goes off.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Magnus
>>> 
>>> On 11/17/2017 09:01 PM, Jerry Hancock wrote:
>>>> Thanks, understand completely.
>>>> You mention “sharing an antenna”.  Is there a problem with connecting the 
>>>> same antenna to two units?  I am referring to my REF0/REF1 pair.
>>>> Thanks
>>>>> On Nov 17, 2017, at 11:39 AM, Magnus Danielson 
>>>>> <mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> 
>>>>> First of all, the receiver varies around some average phase.
>>>>> The average of two receivers may not be the same, even if sharing antenna.
>>>>> Their average can be offset from "absolute phase" because of offsets in 
>>>>> the receiver, antenna cables and antenna.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you are not to careful, a GPSDO will do nicely for many applications. 
>>>>> The more you care, the more hassle.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Oh, and two GPSDOs next to each other can have significant common mode 
>>>>> disturbance, so you can't really evaluate a GPSDO by measuring up to 
>>>>> another GPSDO.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Magnus
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 11/17/2017 08:05 PM, Jerry Hancock wrote:
>>>>>> Granted I expect someone on this list to reply with something that makes 
>>>>>> me feel stupid, if you have two GPSDO units running side by side, should 
>>>>>> the phase delta on the 10Mhz output be zero (ideally)?  Is there an 
>>>>>> absolute phase standard kept between GPSDO units as all it would take is 
>>>>>> one extra inverter in the chain to flip the phase, no?
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Jerry
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>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] Absolute phase

[Jerry Hancock]

I figured, what the heck, and just used a BNC T and it’s working.


> On Nov 17, 2017, at 12:20 PM, Magnus Danielson <mag...@rubidium.se> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The reason I mention sharing antenna is that it takes out the difference that 
> is natural from having different antennas and the difference in multipath.
> 
> Sharing antenna has its own set of problems, so a suitable antenna splitter 
> was assumed. Effectively you need to bypass DC to power the antenna, you need 
> to amplify the signal to compensate for the loss due to the splitter, and it 
> needs to look like an antenna to the GPS receiver, so the antenna alarm does 
> not goes off.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 11/17/2017 09:01 PM, Jerry Hancock wrote:
>> Thanks, understand completely.
>> You mention “sharing an antenna”.  Is there a problem with connecting the 
>> same antenna to two units?  I am referring to my REF0/REF1 pair.
>> Thanks
>>> On Nov 17, 2017, at 11:39 AM, Magnus Danielson <mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> First of all, the receiver varies around some average phase.
>>> The average of two receivers may not be the same, even if sharing antenna.
>>> Their average can be offset from "absolute phase" because of offsets in the 
>>> receiver, antenna cables and antenna.
>>> 
>>> If you are not to careful, a GPSDO will do nicely for many applications. 
>>> The more you care, the more hassle.
>>> 
>>> Oh, and two GPSDOs next to each other can have significant common mode 
>>> disturbance, so you can't really evaluate a GPSDO by measuring up to 
>>> another GPSDO.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Magnus
>>> 
>>> On 11/17/2017 08:05 PM, Jerry Hancock wrote:
>>>> Granted I expect someone on this list to reply with something that makes 
>>>> me feel stupid, if you have two GPSDO units running side by side, should 
>>>> the phase delta on the 10Mhz output be zero (ideally)?  Is there an 
>>>> absolute phase standard kept between GPSDO units as all it would take is 
>>>> one extra inverter in the chain to flip the phase, no?
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] Absolute phase

[Jerry Hancock]

Thanks, understand completely.  

You mention “sharing an antenna”.  Is there a problem with connecting the same 
antenna to two units?  I am referring to my REF0/REF1 pair.

Thanks

> On Nov 17, 2017, at 11:39 AM, Magnus Danielson <mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> First of all, the receiver varies around some average phase.
> The average of two receivers may not be the same, even if sharing antenna.
> Their average can be offset from "absolute phase" because of offsets in the 
> receiver, antenna cables and antenna.
> 
> If you are not to careful, a GPSDO will do nicely for many applications. The 
> more you care, the more hassle.
> 
> Oh, and two GPSDOs next to each other can have significant common mode 
> disturbance, so you can't really evaluate a GPSDO by measuring up to another 
> GPSDO.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 11/17/2017 08:05 PM, Jerry Hancock wrote:
>> Granted I expect someone on this list to reply with something that makes me 
>> feel stupid, if you have two GPSDO units running side by side, should the 
>> phase delta on the 10Mhz output be zero (ideally)?  Is there an absolute 
>> phase standard kept between GPSDO units as all it would take is one extra 
>> inverter in the chain to flip the phase, no?
>> Thanks
>> Jerry
>> ___
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[time-nuts] Absolute phase

[Jerry Hancock]

Granted I expect someone on this list to reply with something that makes me 
feel stupid, if you have two GPSDO units running side by side, should the phase 
delta on the 10Mhz output be zero (ideally)?  Is there an absolute phase 
standard kept between GPSDO units as all it would take is one extra inverter in 
the chain to flip the phase, no?

Thanks

Jerry


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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent RFTG-u REF0-REF1 cable

[Jerry Hancock]

Just to close this one out, I was able to get the Ref-0 and Ref-1 working 
standalone with 10Mhz on both using my spare Motorola UT+ GPS.  Lots of help 
from lots of people and especially Peter Garde who stuck with me to the end.

It would be nice if all this was in one place or maybe one combined document.

Anyway, now I have two, so I’ll be guessing which one is right half the time.

Thanks,

Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] REF1 standalone issue now

[Jerry Hancock]

OK, go figure, after resetting the loopback jumpers it came alive with a green 
light, GPS time is ok, still not presenting a satellite on the LH display but 
it must be seeing something to have the time correct.

Interesting project all along.


> On Nov 15, 2017, at 12:03 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
> 
> I found the write-up on getting 10Mhz out.  I added the resistors and cap and 
> brought it out the 15Mhz connector after separating it from the 15Mhz drive.
> 
> I booted it up and I have a Yellow No GPS light and a Red Fault.  The unit 
> sees the GPS antenna as when I disconnect it the GPS light blinks.  I have 
> the interface plug jumper with 2-8 and 3-13 shorted.  I’ve seen others that 
> say to take 2 and 3 to 8 and I will try that next.  I was very careful in the 
> entire process as it is tough to get the motherboard out of the frame.  I am 
> getting 10Mhz on the 15Mhz TP as expected.  This is using the original REF1 
> GPS board.
> Any ideas?  Not seeing any sats on lady heather at all.  The antenna is known 
> to be good.
> 
> Thanks, close but I hope I didn’t do more harm than good.
> 
> Jerry
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[time-nuts] REF1 standalone issue now

[Jerry Hancock]

I found the write-up on getting 10Mhz out.  I added the resistors and cap and 
brought it out the 15Mhz connector after separating it from the 15Mhz drive.

I booted it up and I have a Yellow No GPS light and a Red Fault.  The unit sees 
the GPS antenna as when I disconnect it the GPS light blinks.  I have the 
interface plug jumper with 2-8 and 3-13 shorted.  I’ve seen others that say to 
take 2 and 3 to 8 and I will try that next.  I was very careful in the entire 
process as it is tough to get the motherboard out of the frame.  I am getting 
10Mhz on the 15Mhz TP as expected.  This is using the original REF1 GPS board.
Any ideas?  Not seeing any sats on lady heather at all.  The antenna is known 
to be good.

Thanks, close but I hope I didn’t do more harm than good.

Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent RFTG-u REF0-REF1 cable

[Jerry Hancock]

Is there an easy way to get 10Mhz out of the REF1?

Next time I am using my electric screwdriver to take this apart.  I can’t 
believe how many bolts it has.  I used a screwdriver that turns double in 
reverse, pretty cool tool, but even then it took forever.


> On Nov 15, 2017, at 7:00 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> At some very basic level, the GPSDO needs to decide when to go into or come
> out of holdover. That decision often involves initial setup of the GPS module 
> and
> subsequent monitoring of the module. The risk in swapping modules is always
> tripping over an obscure IF statement somewhere that does not work right with
> the “new” module. On the Lucent boxes, there is a survey process “up front’ 
> that
> likely gets tangled when you change modules …..
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Nov 15, 2017, at 1:27 AM, Mark Sims  wrote:
>> 
>> It might be eye candy, but is very useful eye candy when coupled with the 
>> satellite SNR values.  A GPSDO does not NEED any communications to the GPS 
>> or the outside world,  but EVERY commercial one does support it.  
>> 
>> The GPSDO firmware asks for the sat info from the GPS (so it can show it in 
>> the SYST:STAT status page) and, if it doesn't get it, it assumes the GPS is 
>> defective, crawls into a corner, and sobs.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Isn’t info about what satellites are where, just eye candy and irrelevant 
>>> to a real GPSDO?
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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent RFTG-u REF0-REF1 cable

[Jerry Hancock]

I can’t find the instructions on how to make the REF1 work without the REF0.  
Other than adding the 10Mhz, do I have to do anything to it to enable it to run 
without the REF0?

> On Nov 14, 2017, at 7:52 PM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:
> 
> Isn’t info about what satellites are where, just eye candy and irrelevant to 
> a real GPSDO?
> 
> Tweaks to the elevation mask ought to be measurable in the PPS quality (if 
> they aren’t then they’re irrelevant).
> 
> Tim
> 
>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 10:39 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
>> 
>> The M12 uses different commands for sending a lot of the data since it is 
>> tracking more sats and the old commands were limited to 6 or 8 sats.   I 
>> doubt it would work the the RFTG.  There might also be a 3V vs 5V problem.
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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent RFTG-u REF0-REF1 cable

[Jerry Hancock]

It turns out I don't have an M12+ in the TAPR GPS.  I always knew I had an 
older model.  I 
checked the numbers and pictures and it it just what I need, an Oncore UT+.  So 
the first 
thing I need to do is get my REF1 standalone and then add this GPS to the REF0 
and 
problem solved.  I also have to get the 10Mhz out of the REF1 but that looks 
easy.

Thanks for all the pointers.

Jerry


On 14 Nov 2017 at 17:33, Jerry Hancock wrote:

> Mark, I went back and looked at the PDF from Peter and the Oncore GPS looks 
> quite a bit 
> like the M12+ I have.  Peter mentions something about firmware in the Oncore. 
>  Anyone 
> know if there would be an issue between using the Oncore and the 12+?
> 
> If this works then I can just drop in my 12+, remove a few jumpers and Bob's 
> my uncle.
> 
> I sent Peter a note.  Is he active on this forum?
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Jerry
> 
> On 15 Nov 2017 at 0:38, Mark Sims wrote:
> 
> > There is also a nice pdf out there by Peter Garde that tells how to add a 
> > GPS receiver to the non-GPD RFTG.  It involves moving around 6 0-ohm (?) 
> > resistors and plugging in an old Motorola (UT+) receiver.   I found the pdf 
> > on EEVBLOG.
> > 
> > https://www.google.com/url?sa=t=j==s=web=1=0ahUKEwiq3pafqr_XAhVFOyYKHT-MAr0QFggmMAA=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eevblog.com%2Fforum%2Ftestgear%2Feconomical-option-for-precision-frequency-reference%2F%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Battach%3D172662=AOvVaw35zt-sQAGprChGTOHL9aFV
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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent RFTG-u REF0-REF1 cable

[Jerry Hancock]

Mark, I went back and looked at the PDF from Peter and the Oncore GPS looks 
quite a bit 
like the M12+ I have.  Peter mentions something about firmware in the Oncore.  
Anyone 
know if there would be an issue between using the Oncore and the 12+?

If this works then I can just drop in my 12+, remove a few jumpers and Bob's my 
uncle.

I sent Peter a note.  Is he active on this forum?

Thoughts?

Jerry

On 15 Nov 2017 at 0:38, Mark Sims wrote:

> There is also a nice pdf out there by Peter Garde that tells how to add a GPS 
> receiver to the non-GPD RFTG.  It involves moving around 6 0-ohm (?) 
> resistors and plugging in an old Motorola (UT+) receiver.   I found the pdf 
> on EEVBLOG.
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t=j==s=web=1=0ahUKEwiq3pafqr_XAhVFOyYKHT-MAr0QFggmMAA=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eevblog.com%2Fforum%2Ftestgear%2Feconomical-option-for-precision-frequency-reference%2F%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Battach%3D172662=AOvVaw35zt-sQAGprChGTOHL9aFV
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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent RFTG-u REF0-REF1 cable

[Jerry Hancock]

I remember seeing that pdf and thinking that the Motorola UT+ mounts look a lot 
like the 
Motorola 12+ and was wondering if would just fit.  I'll go back and look.  
Thanks.

On 15 Nov 2017 at 0:38, Mark Sims wrote:

> There is also a nice pdf out there by Peter Garde that tells how to add a GPS 
> receiver to the non-GPD RFTG.  It involves moving around 6 0-ohm (?) 
> resistors and plugging in an old Motorola (UT+) receiver.   I found the pdf 
> on EEVBLOG.
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t=j==s=web=1=0ahUKEwiq3pafqr_XAhVFOyYKHT-MAr0QFggmMAA=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eevblog.com%2Fforum%2Ftestgear%2Feconomical-option-for-precision-frequency-reference%2F%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Battach%3D172662=AOvVaw35zt-sQAGprChGTOHL9aFV
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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent RFTG-u REF0-REF1 cable

[Jerry Hancock]

Thomas, Yes, thank you, I read the work Dan posted.  

I have this TAPR GPS with the M12+ board in it that I received for free after 
machining the end plates and the unused standby REF0 or REF1, can’t remember 
which has the GPS in it.  I would like to have another 10Mhz standard in my 
office.  I also have an OCXO out of my Tektronix 11301 I was given but that 
uses a trimmer that I can’t really mod to discipline so that option of GPS + 
OCXO is out.  So I wouldn’t mind figuring out a way to take the TAPR GPS and 
feed it into the spare REF unit not unlike what the other REF unit is doing.  I 
would then have to fake some data per Dan’s site.  Having written this,  I just 
might do this project now that I think about it. I could then also use an 
STM32F7 board with display to post a clock as well.  I guess I would also have 
to tap off the (debatably dirty) 10Mhz signal internally in the one that is 
missing.

I’m going to go back and reread Dan’s paper.  There were questions about the 
sawtooth IIRC and I remember seeing it when I compared the output of the TAPR 
1PPS vs the Lucent 1PPS as they would jump phase by successive increments and 
then bounce back.  I don’t think we ever determined which one was moving but I 
remember someone telling me it was most likely related to a sawtooth in the 
discipline.  I don’t know enough about these things to say for sure, but 
watching the 1PPS vs the other made me start to wonder about the absolute phase 
accuracy of those signals.   You would have thought they would have been 
perfectly in phase, no?  I go to bed at night with the confidence that the free 
TAPR GPS is the culprit vs my Lucent that which cost me $200 when all done.

So in summary, I have to plug the GPS REF unit, tap-off the 10Mhz someplace on 
one or the other, feed the second REF unit with my TPAR GPS then also send it 
some text (which is known by Dan) and I should get a second disciplined 10Mhz 
unit.  This will take me a few weeks during which I will get bored and forget 
why I was doing it in the first place.  So please remind me when I post back.

Jerry


> On Nov 14, 2017, at 8:50 AM, Thomas Petig <tho...@petig.eu> wrote:
> 
> Hi Jerry,
> the 15 MHz is disabled by default, just bridging some pins enables the
> output:
> http://syncchannel.blogspot.se/2015/11/denuo-gps-hits-rev-b-dongles.html
> 
> If you want to insert some 1PPS signal to discipline it, you need some
> fake some GPS messages. Dan has done some nice work here, a small ATTiny
> is sufficient.
> 
> /Thomas, SA6CID
> 
> 
> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 08:30:54AM -0800, Jerry Hancock wrote:
>> Bob, I thought you had to send it code, etc?  I have the two units
>> with cable, etc running upstairs.  I want another one for in my office
>> but the same guy only sells the REF0 and REF1 units separately now
>> without the cable.  I thought about splitting the two and using this
>> other GPS unit I have (it was one of the TAPR GPS Kits) to send the
>> other one the 1pps.  You’re saying all you need is a plug?  I would
>> need two functioning units.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Jerry
>> 
>> 
>> Jerry Hancock
>> je...@hanler.com
>> (415) 215-3779
>> 
>>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 8:13 AM, Bob Camp <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> If you are going to get out the soldering iron, why simply make up a plug
>>> to run the GPS unit stand alone?  Keep the second unit powered down 
>>> as a set of spare parts….. Yes, it does depend a bit on what you are doing 
>>> with them ….
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>>> On Nov 13, 2017, at 11:50 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Anyone have a spare cable for the Lucent setup?  I guess I can make one 
>>>> with some DB15 connectors but trying to skip the effort.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks
>>>> 
>>>> Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent RFTG-u REF0-REF1 cable

[Jerry Hancock]

Bob, I thought you had to send it code, etc?  I have the two units with cable, 
etc running upstairs.  I want another one for in my office but the same guy 
only sells the REF0 and REF1 units separately now without the cable.  I thought 
about splitting the two and using this other GPS unit I have (it was one of the 
TAPR GPS Kits) to send the other one the 1pps.  You’re saying all you need is a 
plug?  I would need two functioning units.

Regards,

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
je...@hanler.com
(415) 215-3779

> On Nov 14, 2017, at 8:13 AM, Bob Camp <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> If you are going to get out the soldering iron, why simply make up a plug
> to run the GPS unit stand alone?  Keep the second unit powered down 
> as a set of spare parts….. Yes, it does depend a bit on what you are doing 
> with them ….
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Nov 13, 2017, at 11:50 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Anyone have a spare cable for the Lucent setup?  I guess I can make one with 
>> some DB15 connectors but trying to skip the effort.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent RFTG-u REF0-REF1 cable

[Jerry Hancock]

Yes, the cable is pretty easy, basically DB15 pin 1 to 15; 2-14; 3-13; 4-12; 
5-11; 6-10; 7-9 and 8 to 8 followed by 9-7; 10-6; 11-5; 12-4; 13-3; 14-2; 15-1. 
 If you do a search for "Lucent RFTG-U" and look around on time-nuts you will 
find it laid-out in a little more detail.  I was just looking again and it 
always takes some screwing around to find it.  If all else fails, send me a 
note and I’ll dig it up when I go to make mine.

This will be my second set of the units.  They just seem to hum along since 
I’ve had them 18 months.  I use a passive outboard distribution unit and can 
easily drive 16 devices.

Regards,

Jerry

> On Nov 13, 2017, at 8:50 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
> 
> Anyone have a spare cable for the Lucent setup?  I guess I can make one with 
> some DB15 connectors but trying to skip the effort.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Jerry
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[time-nuts] Lucent RFTG-u REF0-REF1 cable

[Jerry Hancock]

Anyone have a spare cable for the Lucent setup?  I guess I can make one with 
some DB15 connectors but trying to skip the effort.

Thanks

Jerry
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[time-nuts] Tek 11301 DOCXO

[Jerry Hancock]

I was given a Tek 11301 that after tons of work, I can’t fix and seems to be 
getting worse.

It has the high stability option that looks like an ovenized oscillator in it.  
Are these worth pulling out and mounting as a separate source?  I have a GPSDO 
and also a second GPS with 1PPS output.  I was thinking of using the TAPR GPS 
with 1PPS output to discipline it.  Thoughts?

Jerry


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Re: [time-nuts] Problems with TAPR Oncore M12+ kit

[Jerry Hancock]

Chris, are you sure the RX light is blinking and not the TX?  When you turn it 
on, you should see the TX light blinking and the PPS with Power on as well.

> On Jul 3, 2017, at 9:52 PM, Chris Waldrup <kd4...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Has anyone else received a unit they can't get to work?
> I got my unit finally boxed up a few weeks back. The PPS LED flashes and 
> power LED and RXD LED's light but the TxD doesn't. 
> I've ordered replacement MAX chips and 74ACT04 chips from Digi-Key but this 
> didn't solve the problem. 
> As a next step I've found a Oncore M12 board on eBay coming from China and 
> this should come in a few weeks. 
> No serial communications unfortunately. 
> I've also tried swapping pins 2 and 3 on the DB9 just in case RX and TX were 
> swapped (although I had originally built the cable as per the schematic with 
> the kit) but still no luck. 
> Thanks for any comments. 
> 
> Chris
> KD4PBJ
> 
>> On Apr 29, 2017, at 11:10 AM, Chris Albertson <albertson.ch...@gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> On this product people are going to want holes drilled and I think a "D"
>> shape hole for the DB type connector.   The holes would allow easy clamping
>> but in a two step operation.If I were making these I'd first clamp the
>> stock over a pair of 123 blocks, mill the holes, then after I hade a batch
>> of these made,  hole the holes to hold the part a fixture and then mill the
>> edges.
>> 
>> But that said, I could make a pair of these by hand with hack saw, file and
>> drill press in about 15 minutes.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 1:41 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Generally, the way I mill plates such as these is I surface a piece of
>>> scrap and then glue (using superglue) the stock down onto the scrap.  I can
>>> then machine around the edges without worrying about clamping.  With
>>> pockets though, the torque even when ramping down might break the part
>>> loose.
>>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> Chris Albertson
>> Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] HP 4815 Vector Impedance Analyzer repair

[Jerry Hancock]

Rick,

I have two, one I repaired yesterday using parts from the second.  Since 
acquiring both of them about 4yrs ago, I’ve had to repair the “working” unit 
five times including the first time when I picked it up.  Unlike other HP 
equipment I own, this thing hasn’t been as reliable.  Luckily having the parts 
mule (other than a voltage problem once) I was able to fix it by looking in the 
repair manual and swapping the impacted card.

As what Tom suggested, I would check the voltages first as the balance of both 
amplitude and phase is impacted by the +/- voltages being out of balance.  I 
think it was +/- 24V but I could be wrong as I haven’t had a voltage related 
problem in a couple of years.

So far, mine has had 4 defective cards, two bad power supply caps and two bad 
regulators. Luckily (again) it’s never been that same card.  The cards that 
have failed have had transistor/FET issues opposed to passive components.  When 
I get around to repairing the defective cards I am going to swap out the FETs 
(on the defective cards) first and suggest you do the same once verifying the 
voltages are correct and no caps have failed.  I’ve had leaky FET issues on 
3455A volt meters.  I have a card here on my desk for the past year and I’ve 
gone over the passives two or three times and can’t find a problem so I can 
only assume at this point that there is a leaky FET on that one.

My 4815A is one of my favorite pieces of equipment. It is very versatile.  
After fixing it yesterday, I tried measuring the impedance of several caps and 
the unit was accurate to the limit of the meters.

I might be able to help you if you get stuck but I’ll admit, my problem 
diagnosis has been limited to swapping cards after getting close in the manual.

Jerry

> On Jun 20, 2017, at 1:38 PM, Tom Curlee  wrote:
> 
> The first thing I would do is replace all the power supply electrolytic 
> capacitors on the internal boards.  If I remember correctly, the boards are 
> plugged in and the replacing the capacitors is quite easy.  In my unit, at 
> least one capacitor was shorted and was pulling down a power supply.  
> 
> Tom  WB6UZZ
> 
> 
>  From: Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement  
> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 12:02 PM
> Subject: [time-nuts] HP 4815 Vector Impedance Analyzer repair
> 
> I have a non-functional HP 4815, don't know if it
> is the probe or the box.  A long time ago, there
> was a fellow named George Standford (something like
> that) who repaired these.  My old contact information
> for him is no good.  Does anyone know if he is still
> in business, or if there is any other place that
> repairs these things?
> 
> Rick N6RK
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Re: [time-nuts] The clocks at Windsor Castle, UK

[Jerry Hancock]

I’m missing something here.   Advancing the clocks 11 hours is the same as 
setting it back one hour.  There was an article about a person that had 300 
clocks with the same problem and I don’t understand the issue and I might be 
overlooking something or not remembering it correctly.  If you have to set them 
forward, no big deal, you just wind them forward as this doesn’t violate the 
law (of winding them backwards) which is verboten;  If you have to set them 
backwards (+11 hours), you just stop the clock(s) for an hour or wind them 
forwards.  Setting them back an hour is the same as going forwards 11 hours or 
stopping the clock for an hour.  You might lose a second or two running around 
the estate but it doesn’t violate the “forward only” rule.

I have an International Time Recorder (ITR) clock in my basement and I agree, 
though you can move it backwards (most have a slip-clutch with two plates and a 
spring pressing them together) you don’t want to do that as it is hard on the 
mechanism.  I also think that setting it backward would, or could, upset the 
chime mechanism timing.  When you slip the clock forward, it is usually just 
the final dial drive that is connected to the clutch so if it has a chime 
mechanism, that has to be adjusted separately.  I usually just stop the clock 
for an hour and if I miss the restart, I just catch up as moving it forward as 
stated, causing no harm to the mechanism.  So though running around the estate 
setting a couple hundred clocks would be a pain, it doesn’t require much 
thinking so I don’t get the issue.

I sent this note to my best friend, Dave Dietrich, who resides in Connecticut 
and is the current authority on master clocks having hundreds (if not a 
thousand) master clocks as well as time recorders, mostly from International 
Time Recorder, the founding company of IBM, for whom we both worked for over 
25yrs. Dave has been setting up displays of his clocks, one of which is the 
most stunning being in Stamford, Ct, at the Stamford building.  These clocks 
are mechanical works of art that he restores.  I recently suggested he join 
time-nuts as if he isn’t a time-nut, then I question the definition.

Jerry



> On Jun 16, 2017, at 6:09 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> I would claim that anybody with 450 clocks to tend is indeed a Time Nut ….:)
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Jun 15, 2017, at 10:37 PM, Bill Hawkins  wrote:
>> 
>> Happened to watch a PBS/BBC program called "Queen's Castle" episode 102
>> - Four Seasons, that was filmed in 2005 at Windsor, not Buckingham.
>> 
>> One of the segments was about the castle timekeeper, Steve Davison. He's
>> responsible for 450 clocks, some 300 years old. His biggest challenge is
>> the end of British Summer Time, when each clock must be advanced 11
>> hours, stopping until striking finishes. Old clocks were not designed
>> for Fall Back. Takes him 16 hours.
>> 
>> There was a brief shot of his workshop, with a clock repair in progress.
>> No sign of a time standard. No discussion of leap seconds, either.
>> 
>> Tried to find him, but only found a 2013 ad for a time keeper to
>> maintain 1000 clocks in various castles.
>> 
>> Hope that wasn't too far off topic.
>> 
>> Bill Hawkins
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] TAPR GPS Experimenters Kit

[Jerry Hancock]

I noticed when I powered it up that the TX light blinked whether there was a PC 
connected or not, so I guess the PC doesn’t need to poll it for a response.  I 
assume you have the voltage set correctly?  There are two options, one 
regulated and the other not.  I also assume you have tried POR a few times.  
Lastly, pretty basic, but it might not transmit without an antenna.   But 
something doesn’t make sense and that is the RX led flashing.  I don’t want to 
imply you have the RX and TX mixed up, but I just checked mine and after POR, 
from the left, I have PPS, RX, TX and Power with the PPS and TX blinking.  This 
is without any PC code running.  I would start up Lady Heather and see what 
happens.  Then you should see RX followed by TX after PPS with Green power on 
solid.  The PPS pulse is 198us wide on mine.  Also, I might have an older 
version, I think it is a 2002 series.





> On Jun 13, 2017, at 8:12 PM, Chris Waldrup  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I have my board packaged up and am trying to get it working. 
> Last night I built the cable to split out serial, 1 PPS and power. 
> My unit powers up, and the 1 PPS and RxD LEDs are flashing and the green 
> power LED is solid on. 
> However I can't get serial to work and the TxD LED isn't flashing. 
> I verified the pinout of the cable I made with a DMM. Pins 2 and 3 are 
> swapped between connectors so the RX is going to TX for each of the two lines 
> and pin 5 ground is the same on both D sub 9 connectors. 
> I have tried Lady Heather, Tboltmon, and even just pulling up hyperterminal 
> and I'm getting nothing. 
> My settings are COM1 9600 8-N-1 and I'm using a Dell laptop that has an 
> actual serial port and am running XP.
> When I'm Thunderbolt Monitor program, the green TX LED icon on the screen 
> flashes and when it does the RxD lights on the M12+.
> Just no TxD coming out of the M12+.
> Has anyone else had a problem with this? If so is it fixable?
> Thank you. 
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
>> On Jun 3, 2017, at 11:22 AM, Gregory Beat  wrote:
>> 
>> Jerry -
>> 
>> I rarely use "raw" Oncore M12 commands these days, using one of the 3 common 
>> PC programs: Lady Heather, TAC32/SynTAC, M12Oncore(old Moto pgm).
>> 
>> How are you routing that 1 PPS signal?  Does your front LED pulse?
>> I wire 1 PPS to the DCD pin (DE-9M, standard RS-232), TAC32 can be 
>> configured for "which pin" (DE-9M) to sense that PPS signal.  
>> This is why I prefer to use Mark Sims' Lady Heather or Rick Hambly's TAC32.  
>> TAC32 program has a quick setting for config. receiver as Timing or 
>> Navigation.
>> 
>> IF you continue to have issues, perform the Hardware Reset (Lady Heather).
>> That will return your receiver to default factory with cleared settings.
>> 
>> greg
>> ---
>> Greg, Funny.  
>> Some of the Lucent boxes have been in strange places as well.  
>> Can you please check your PPS to see if you get a signal when in that other 
>> mode (where it needs at least one sat locked)?
>> 
>> Sent from iPad Air
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Re: [time-nuts] PPS sync

[Jerry Hancock]

That makes complete sense, it’s not disciplining anything, just pumping out the 
PPS and reporting the variance.  I don’t know why I didn’t think of it.

It’s interesting how it jumps around from PPS to PPS. 

Thank you,

Jerry


> On Jun 7, 2017, at 2:57 AM, Hal Murray  wrote:
> 
> 
> je...@hanler.com said:
>> Chris, I think you are onto something.  Running Lady Heather on this unit I
>> see a line under “receiver” with the term “SawT” and a parameter of 24ns.
>> So if we combine this information with what you teach below, it’s starting
>> to look like maybe the M12 unit is doing something different than the
>> Lucent.
> 
> The M12 is a timing receiver.  The Lucent is a GPSDO.
> 
> The Lucent will adjust the osc so it runs at 10 MHz and the phase is such 
> that the PPS lines up with UTC.
> 
> The M12 tells you the offset rather then adjusting the osc so the offset is 0.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] PPS sync

[Jerry Hancock]

Chris, I think you are onto something.  Running Lady Heather on this unit I see 
a line under “receiver” with the term “SawT” and a parameter of 24ns.  So if we 
combine this information with what you teach below, it’s starting to look like 
maybe the M12 unit is doing something different than the Lucent.  I am watching 
it today and I see 5 PPS that vary from the lucent pulse (used as a trigger) 
each about +20ns until it resets. 

Mark Sims, can you comment on the SawT parameter, I assumed being reported by 
the M12 GPS, displayed on Lady Heather?

Thanks 


> On Jun 5, 2017, at 10:15 AM, Chris Albertson <albertson.ch...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I did not finish the sawtooth explanation.  One of the units is designed
> such that the PPS is always on the raising edge of an internal 10MHz clock.
>   If the 10MHz clock were perfect this means the maximum error is 1/2
> cycle.   The software in the GPS choose site best edge to minimize error.
> the jump you see it when it selects a different cycle and jumpsThe
> software tracks the error and outputs an estimate of the root on the serial
> channel.
> 
> You can verify this by plotting the sawtooth correction vs.time and see
> that it lines up with your observation of the jump back to zero error.
> 
> There might still be errors cause by other things, like improper self
> survey but the results you reported are exactly like what one would expect
> from a unit that uses an oscillator edge to trigger PPS.  It other words
> what you see is a design feature not an error.
> 
> On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 6:40 AM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
> 
>> It was off 7.5KM, that’s a little beyond groggy, no?  More like a trip to
>> Vegas.
>> 
>> I’ll let it rerun the survey and see if it gets closer.
>> 
>>> On Jun 4, 2017, at 9:50 PM, Mark Sims <hol...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Be careful when using one unit's location to set a different model's
>> location...  particularly the altitude.   Some devices report altitude in
>> MSL, others in AGL... and different units may use different models for the
>> ellipsoid.   You are always better off using coordinates generated by the
>> particular device (either the built-in self survey or something like Lady
>> Heather's precision survey).
>>> 
>>> I did some tests while developing Lady Heather's precision survey code.
>> I got pretty consistent lat/lon/alt results on the same units but
>> consistent offsets between different models of receivers.
>>> 
>>> I would suggest letting the Motorola re-surevy itself...  it may have
>> been a bit groggy after first being powered up after a few years of
>> sleep... I know I am...
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> 
>>>> I then set the M12 reference location to the Lucent location as I know
>> it to be correct.
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] PPS sync

[Jerry Hancock]

It was off 7.5KM, that’s a little beyond groggy, no?  More like a trip to Vegas.

I’ll let it rerun the survey and see if it gets closer.

> On Jun 4, 2017, at 9:50 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> Be careful when using one unit's location to set a different model's 
> location...  particularly the altitude.   Some devices report altitude in 
> MSL, others in AGL... and different units may use different models for the 
> ellipsoid.   You are always better off using coordinates generated by the 
> particular device (either the built-in self survey or something like Lady 
> Heather's precision survey).
> 
> I did some tests while developing Lady Heather's precision survey code.   I 
> got pretty consistent lat/lon/alt results on the same units but consistent 
> offsets between different models of receivers.
> 
> I would suggest letting the Motorola re-surevy itself...  it may have been a 
> bit groggy after first being powered up after a few years of sleep... I know 
> I am...
> 
> ---
> 
>> I then set the M12 reference location to the Lucent location as I know it to 
>> be correct.
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[time-nuts] PPS sync

[Jerry Hancock]

1) I have my TAPR M12 Kit working now next to my lucent RFTG-U REF0/1 pair.  I 
was comparing the PPS outputs triggering on the Lucent as channel 1 and the M12 
as channel 2.  I can’t tell which is moving around but the symptoms are that at 
T0 (not the top of the minute or hour) they are in sync within a nanosecond.  
From T1 to T20 they move progressively out of sync until hitting around 100ns 
and then snapping back to being in sync. I would think that if both were moving 
that it wouldn’t be that consistent, no?

Since I can’t tell which is moving, most likely both,  I plan to take the 
disciplined 10Mhz out of the Lucent and divide it down with my TAPR TADD-2 to 
1PPS.  I would think that would be more stable on a PPS by PPS basis and 
compare again. 

Any other ideas?

2)  When I first fired up the M12 and let it do a survey, it was off for some 
reason by 7KM.  I then set the M12 reference location to the Lucent location as 
I know it to be correct.  I was thinking though, would the PPS phase comparison 
in 1, above, be impacted by the reference locations being off?  Both GPS cables 
are the same length.  The only thing I don’t know is the internal processing 
delay of the units.  The SynTac software allows you to take this into 
consideration for PPS timing when using the M12.  Interesting unit by the way.  
Lots of configuration options exposed with the Syntac software.  Not that I 
would replace Lady Heather or anything, I’m just using it while I get some of 
these issues figured out.

Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] Rack needed in SF Bay Area

[Jerry Hancock]

Thanks, just what I need and the right price range.

> On Jun 3, 2017, at 9:02 PM, Lincoln <linc...@ampmonkeys.com> wrote:
> 
> There is also Halted off of central expressway
> 
> 
>> On Jun 3, 2017, at 8:32 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Anyone in the SF bay area have a rack that is surplus to your needs?  
>> 
>> Please reply to cl...@hanler.com
>> 
>> thanks 
>> 
>> Jerry
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[time-nuts] Rack needed in SF Bay Area

[Jerry Hancock]

Anyone in the SF bay area have a rack that is surplus to your needs?  

Please reply to cl...@hanler.com

thanks 

Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] TAPR GPS Experimenters Kit

[Jerry Hancock]

Greg, Funny.  Some of the lucent boxes have been in strange places as well.  
Can you please check your PPS to see if you get a signal when in that other 
mode (where it needs at least one sat locked)?

> On Jun 2, 2017, at 5:13 PM, Gregory Beat  wrote:
> 
> Received a note from John Koster, W9DDD that TAPR had one complete GPS kit 
> left.
> https://www.tapr.org/gps_exp-kit.html
> 
> Received #CAB083 (2.1mm DC Barrel Jack to Bare Wire/"Pigtail") this morning 
> via AirMail.  
> https://www.moddiy.com/products/2.1mm-DC-Barrel-Jack-to-Bare-Wire-%28Open-End%29.html
> Took about 10 minutes to finish building 2 adapter cables for the two kits.
> I will have to post photos.
> 
> I used an old Linksys router power adapter (12VDC, 1A) for power and an old 
> Motorola ANT62301 "HockeyPuck" antenna (Marine screw-base) on the patio (some 
> obstructions).
> http://www.dvq.com/stan/041127/TN-491B-motorola-gps-antenna.pdf
> 
> I could not get TAPR/CNS Systems TAC32 software to work under latest update 
> of Windows 10 (I'll have to ask Rick, W2GPS about that).
> 
> Lady Heather, version 5 came to the rescue (Thank you Mark Sims).
> Lady Heather recognized the Motorola M12 receiver quickly.
> 
> I performed a Hardware Reset and then started the Standard Survey.  
> After about 10 minutes it was tracking, and continuing survey.
> 
> I did read the old coordinates and date from one M12 receiver  
> it last operated in 2014 and its coordinates placed it in middle of Indian 
> River, west of Melbourne, FL (Space Coast).
> Many laughs about why the last report was in river:
> 1.) dropped off a barge or boat
> 2.) partially recovered from a Falcon 9 booster
> 3.) throwing contest from shore
> --
> greg, w9gb
> 
> Sent from iPad Air
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Re: [time-nuts] The future of Telecom Frequency Standard surplus

[Jerry Hancock]

Tom, Another question is will the surplus equipment have the same value to the 
hobbyist?  I have a lot of old gear like spectrum analyzers, scopes, signal 
generators, etc that was outdated and sold for cheap.  I keep wondering if the 
same economics will apply to the equipment that is for instance, currently 
selling for 40k, 50k or even higher, meaning will it drop to pennies on the 
dollar like I paid for my 8566B?  For some reason I don’t think it will.  If it 
does, it will be because some board that is impossible to repair went to smoke.




> On May 31, 2017, at 8:47 AM, Tom Knox  wrote:
> 
> I think many of us Time-Nuts have played with the wide range of frequency 
> standards surplussed from the Telecom market.
> 
> My questions is, will the quality of future surplus offerings go up or down 
> as 4G and in the more distant future 5G surplus Frequency Standards hit the 
> market? It seems with higher data rates stability and phase noise demands 
> will increase, but will other advances find ways around the expense of a high 
> end Frequency Standard. I know some early telecom systems even want as far as 
> Cesium Standards, but more robust network tolerances seems to have reduced 
> the need for that level of performance. So which way are we headed?
> 
> Any thought? I imagine some members are actually involved in design and 
> implementation of the next generation telecom technologies and will have 
> direct knowledge.
> 
> Thanks;
> 
> 
> Thomas Knox
> 1-303-554-0307
> act...@hotmail.com
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS Kit Plates

[Jerry Hancock]

Greg, to which adapter cable are you referring?  From the PC to the DB9?

What I did in the meantime was use breadboarding jumpers.  The square female 
ends typically will press onto the DB9 male pins.

Glad they fit your need.

Steve, sounds like there won’t be another round?

Jerry


> On May 27, 2017, at 2:04 PM, Gregory Beat  wrote:
> 
> Steve and Jerry -
> 
> Thank you for coordinating the acquisition and machining of these End Panels 
> for the TAPR GPS Experimenters Kit.  I understand these kits (SynPaQ/E 
> version XTS) are EXHAUSTED at TAPR.  Check the TAPR web site for details.
> https://www.tapr.org/gps_exp-kit.html 
> 
> The End Panels arrived from Jerry this afternoon (Saturday, USPS Priority).
> They were well packed and I found no oil on my end panels.
> 
> The VCC lens cap and 
> http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/VCC/CMS322CTP/?qs=YfTKvZjIiZx%2FK6G184oH6A%3D%3D
>  
> 
> Retaining ring (Mouser) for Front Panel LEDs fit perfectly.
> http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/VCC/RNG_268/?qs=%2fha2pyFaduhfGvQXQvy97Y4tfuHua2s5JninzMNF16XefMczA6YdRg%3d%3d
>  
> 
> 
> The TAPR kit does not include the "jack screws" for the DE-9 connector.
> I had these in my parts drawer, Jameco part number: 16548 (75 cents/set).
> http://www.jameco.com/z/14-522-R-Jack-Screw-Nut-Washers-Set-4-40-Hex-0-187-W-x-0-187-H-x-0-315-L-Thread_16548.html
>  
> 
> 
> The kit Looks Great (like new).  Now to build the Adapter Cable this weekend.
> https://www.tapr.org/images/com-cbl.jpg 
> 
> 
> greg, w9gb
> 
> > Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Kit Plates
> >
> > Hello again, fellow curmudgeons,
> >
> > I sent out more shipping notices this morning and plan to hit the PO in 
> > about 5 hours.
> >
> > When you receive your plates and prior to mounting, please clean them with 
> > soap and > water or even windex or simple green.  I cleaned the machine oil 
> > off to the limit of my > patience but there might be a little left.  I’ve 
> > not seen any interaction between the  
> > machine oil, windex, etc with the coating.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from iPad Air

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[time-nuts] GPS Kit Plates

[Jerry Hancock]

Hello again, fellow curmudgeons,

I sent out more shipping notices this morning and plan to hit the PO in about 5 
hours.

When you receive your plates and prior to mounting, please clean them with soap 
and water or even windex or simple green.  I cleaned the machine oil off to the 
limit of my patience but there might be a little left.  I’ve not seen any 
interaction between the machine oil, windex, etc with the coating.

Regards,

Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS plates shipped today

[Jerry Hancock]

Phillip, Interesting, I have an account on USPS but though I receive shipping 
notifications from UPS, I’ve never received one from USPS.  I’ll have to check 
my spam filter.

Also, I had to send them package rates and that includes tracking information 
which I didn’t know, vs First Class postage which is about half but doesn’t 
have tracking and must be flexible like a paper letter.  I’ve shipped flat rate 
boxes loaded with steel, must have weighed 17lbs for $5.15 across country in 2 
days.  Now they upped the small flat rate box to $7.15 and I think they have a 
weight limit.

One other point as people have asked: I haven’t sent shipping emails to 
everyone yet, so far just the smaller orders.  The rest will come out in the 
next 24 hours.

Jerry


> On May 25, 2017, at 1:49 PM, Philip Gladstone 
> <pjsg-timen...@nospam.gladstonefamily.net> wrote:
> 
> I want to thank the both of you for putting this together.
> 
> Philip
> 
> p.s. I signed up with the USPS some time ago to get email whenever someone 
> ships a package to me (https://my.usps.com/) and I just got the notification 
> (with the tracking number).
> 
> On 25/05/2017 16:03, Jerry Hancock wrote:
>> Hello fellow curmudgeons,
>> 
>> Today I shipped the plates to the people that have paid both Steve and me.  
>> For those that elected the flat rate shipping, they will arrive in a few 
>> days, maybe even Saturday, if not, Monday.  Those that elected the lower 
>> cost alternative should arrive no later than the end of next week, possibly 
>> a lot sooner.  I have tracking numbers for each parcel but don’t have the 
>> energy to type them into separate emails.  if on the outside chance your 
>> package doesn’t arrive by next Friday, please shoot me an email and I will 
>> track your package.
>> 
>> It’s been an interesting project and I learned a few things along the way 
>> that made it all worthwhile.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Jerry
> 
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[time-nuts] GPS plates shipped today

[Jerry Hancock]

Hello fellow curmudgeons, 

Today I shipped the plates to the people that have paid both Steve and me.  For 
those that elected the flat rate shipping, they will arrive in a few days, 
maybe even Saturday, if not, Monday.  Those that elected the lower cost 
alternative should arrive no later than the end of next week, possibly a lot 
sooner.  I have tracking numbers for each parcel but don’t have the energy to 
type them into separate emails.  if on the outside chance your package doesn’t 
arrive by next Friday, please shoot me an email and I will track your package.

It’s been an interesting project and I learned a few things along the way that 
made it all worthwhile.

Thanks,

Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] TAPR GPS kit end plates update

[Jerry Hancock]

Hear! Hear!  

This project was a lot more work than either Steve or I imagined and though it 
seems like only a small sum to each individual, when aggregated it becomes a 
burden that Steve shouldn’t have to shoulder.

Thank you!

> On May 25, 2017, at 9:54 AM, Steve - Home  wrote:
> 
> There are still a number of people who have not paid for their end plates. 
> They will be held by the machinist and won't ship until both he and I have 
> received payment.
> 
> At this point I'm not into publicly listing the non-payers but it represents 
> a fair chunk of money out of my pocket and a lot of time out of the 
> machinist's valuable offer to the group.
> 
> Please pay what you owe through PayPal to me by Friday midnight CDT. After 
> that the names will be listed so others don't get burned. I did this as a 
> favor to the group but I did not offer to lose money on the favor!
> 
> Steve
> WB0DBS
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] TAPR GPS kit end plates update

[Jerry Hancock]

You shouldn’t have to enlarge the holes.  I trial-fit the lenses from the unit 
I received in the holes that I drilled to specifications in the document at 
approximately .28”.  The lenses add a professional look to the front plate.

Jerry


> On May 21, 2017, at 3:42 PM, Steve - Home  wrote:
> 
> Jerry is making rapid progress with the machine work on the end plates and 
> should be contacting those who have paid to provide you with the follow on 
> postage cost. 
> 
> After going through the weekend mail and a PayPal update today, there are 
> still 10 people who haven't paid. That represents 40 plates we're holding. 
> Please pay by Friday May 26 or we'll have to offer them to others. I've also 
> had a couple of requests after the initial order had closed. If I have 
> cancellations or no-pays I will first fill additional orders from those 
> before looking at a second order. I don't think we'll get as good a discount 
> on the second order, if there is one, as the quantity will be much smaller. 
> 
> Here is some additional information from a list member who made the kits 
> possible. There are clear lenses available for the LED holes that will dress 
> up the front panel but are not necessary for proper operation in a lab or 
> shop environment. The lenses are available from Mouser Electronics, part 
> number 593-3220C, manufacturer's part number CMS322CTP. The retainer for the 
> lens is Mouser part number 593-RNG268, manufacturer's part number RNG268. 
> Lenses are $1.44 each in small quantities, retainers are $.26 in small 
> quantities. You'll want 4 of each. You'll have to slightly enlarge each hole 
> to accommodate the lenses. Again, these are not necessary for proper 
> operation.
> 
> Steve
> WB0DBS
> 
> 
> 
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[time-nuts] time.gov reply from NIST

[Jerry Hancock]

Sounds like there was a change made to the time.gov code recently that could 
have caused the error we noticed.  I replied to Andrew that I didn’t remember 
the time.gov site loading any slower or faster than usual.


Jerry, 

Thanks for writing.  I have had a few reports of incorrect time, but they were 
from people comparing to cell phones and WWVB clocks.  I have not been able to 
replicate any errors, but I had our network folks verify that the servers 
serving the web content are synchronizing with NTPd to NIST servers.  I trust 
time-nuts implicitly - if you guys say there's a problem, I believe it.

It would be difficult to believe that the server clocks could be on that far, 
and then corrected, and then off again.  If a refresh fixes it, then I'm 
confident that it is a network problem. The app corrects for half the 
round-trip delay, assuming that to be a good estimate for the one way delay 
from the web server.  However, if there is a network bottleneck or vary slow 
packet transfer in one direction, then the correction will not be accurate.  
Have you happened to notice if it looked like it took several seconds to 
connect after making the web request?

I might have to take out the correction and just report the delay, how it used 
to be.  This is also how the widget operates: 
http://time.gov/widget/widget.html <http://time.gov/widget/widget.html>  So a 
check of the widget at the time the HTML5 application is showing an error I 
would expect it to be correct.  

Thanks for the information!  Please keep in touch.

Andrew Novick
NIST
(xxx) xxx -  phone removed by Jerry

On 5/12/2017 11:15 AM, Jerry Hancock wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I am a member of a group of individuals called time-nuts.  Most of us have 
> atomic clocks or at a minimum, GPS disciplined oscillators that record and 
> display time with a variance below 10 nanoseconds.  Yesterday around 14:00 
> Pacific Time I noticed while setting a new watch that time.gov 
> <http://time.gov/> was as much as 5 seconds slow.  After reporting this on 
> the time-nuts site, other members found the same discrepancy.  This was 
> corrected later in the day.  At least one member of our group reported that 
> refreshing the site corrected the error.  I found that by running the flash 
> application that also corrected the error.  Since around 18:00 Pacific 
> yesterday the error has been corrected.
> 
> Can you account for the discrepancy?  
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Jerry Hancock
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Re: [time-nuts] time.gov

[Jerry Hancock]

I sent a note to the site contact this morning asking if they can explain the 
discrepancy.

More to come.

Jerry


> On May 12, 2017, at 3:33 AM, Tim Shoppa <tsho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I was observing a consistent 5-second discrepancy between real time (GPS,
> WWV, and NTP sources were checked) and time.gov web page last night.
> 
> Round-trip web request/response time between me and time.gov is less than
> 100ms.
> 
> This morning it is working fine.
> 
> Note that whenever I drive by the Naval Observatory I try to at least
> glance at my watch and compare it to the big clock too :-). Occasionally
> their LED clock on Mass Ave is off.
> 
> Tim N3QE
> 
> On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 6:09 PM, Donald E. Pauly <trojancow...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/date.html
>> 
>> About 10 years ago, I checked my WWVB time code receiver that I built
>> against time.gov and it was within 0.1 seconds.  That was as close as
>> the eyeball can tell.  You report a huge error and if confirmed, you
>> should complain.  I would double check against WWV since WWVB is now
>> worthless for time comparison.  That webpage is supposed to be
>> compensated for network delay within 0.1 second.
>> 
>> Just now at 15:00:00 MST I checked my phone with time.gov on wireless
>> versus a full size computer also on wireless.  I momentarily saw the
>> phone 65 seconds ahead of the computer.  After hitting refresh and
>> going off wireless and directly to my carrier, the phone matched the
>> computer.  I had a witness but cannot get the problem to reappear.  I
>> don't know exactly why the problem went away.  Some servers may cache
>> web pages so refresh may be necessary.
>> 
>> πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
>> WB0KVV
>> 
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com>
>> Date: Thu, May 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM
>> Subject: [time-nuts] time.gov
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
>> time-nuts@febo.com>
>> 
>> 
>> I went to time.gov today as I was sitting away from my lab when a new
>> watch arrived.  Finally got the 25yr watch from the company that laid
>> me off a week later…
>> 
>> Anyway, I set the seconds rollover to 00 when time.gov reset and then
>> walked down to my lab and noticed the watch is now 6 seconds slow.  So
>> I checked again with another computer, same problem, www.time.gov is 6
>> seconds slow.  Never say this happen, usually it is right on the money
>> give or take about .2 seconds.
>> 
>> Jerry
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>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] time.gov

[Jerry Hancock]

Since the application takes into account the network speed, maybe there is a 
cacheing issue initially that is then corrected when you refresh the page?  
It’s no longer doing it now but was for several hours earlier today.  

Strange.
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Re: [time-nuts] time.gov

[Jerry Hancock]

I checked it on two different computers and again just now, all were counting 
5+ seconds slow.  I then downloaded their flash app which as an option I never 
had to do and that was correct.  Both of the apps claim to be adjusted for 
network delay. 

This was around 14:00Pacific.  I just checked again and both apps are now 
correct.  I’ll have to dig into the issue.


> On May 11, 2017, at 3:09 PM, Donald E. Pauly <trojancow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2017-May/date.html
> 
> About 10 years ago, I checked my WWVB time code receiver that I built
> against time.gov and it was within 0.1 seconds.  That was as close as
> the eyeball can tell.  You report a huge error and if confirmed, you
> should complain.  I would double check against WWV since WWVB is now
> worthless for time comparison.  That webpage is supposed to be
> compensated for network delay within 0.1 second.
> 
> Just now at 15:00:00 MST I checked my phone with time.gov on wireless
> versus a full size computer also on wireless.  I momentarily saw the
> phone 65 seconds ahead of the computer.  After hitting refresh and
> going off wireless and directly to my carrier, the phone matched the
> computer.  I had a witness but cannot get the problem to reappear.  I
> don't know exactly why the problem went away.  Some servers may cache
> web pages so refresh may be necessary.
> 
> πθ°μΩω±√·Γλ
> WB0KVV
> 
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com>
> Date: Thu, May 11, 2017 at 2:36 PM
> Subject: [time-nuts] time.gov
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts@febo.com>
> 
> 
> I went to time.gov today as I was sitting away from my lab when a new
> watch arrived.  Finally got the 25yr watch from the company that laid
> me off a week later…
> 
> Anyway, I set the seconds rollover to 00 when time.gov reset and then
> walked down to my lab and noticed the watch is now 6 seconds slow.  So
> I checked again with another computer, same problem, www.time.gov is 6
> seconds slow.  Never say this happen, usually it is right on the money
> give or take about .2 seconds.
> 
> Jerry
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[time-nuts] time.gov

[Jerry Hancock]

I went to time.gov today as I was sitting away from my lab when a new watch 
arrived.  Finally got the 25yr watch from the company that laid me off a week 
later…

Anyway, I set the seconds rollover to 00 when time.gov reset and then walked 
down to my lab and noticed the watch is now 6 seconds slow.  So I checked again 
with another computer, same problem, www.time.gov is 6 seconds slow.  Never say 
this happen, usually it is right on the money give or take about .2 seconds.

Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] Using 5335 frequency counter for timing

[Jerry Hancock]

Tim, I understand all about TDRs, was doing communications cable tests going 
back to '76 at IBM.  This was a simple experiment to show my son (who is 
thinking of becoming an engineer) how precise certain equipment is.


> On May 8, 2017, at 6:03 AM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:
> 
> Jerry, it's very different than the equipment you currently have, but there
> are specialized microwave TDR's that are used to quantify and localize
> impedance bumps down to the fractional inch level (which would be tens of
> picoseconds). You can "see" every connector and PCB/cable transition using
> these TDR's.
> 
> Tim N3QE
> 

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Re: [time-nuts] Using 5335 frequency counter for timing

[Jerry Hancock]

I tried reading the 5335 over GPIB.  In the case where I am measuring frequency 
I get the expected number of digits.  In the case where I am measuring A->B, I 
only get nanoseconds (e.g 3E-9; or 4E-9).  On my scopes, I was able to measure 
the delta at 3.28 nanoseconds with both scopes close within .01 nanoseconds.  I 
was measuring the delta between 1M and 11.5” of RG316 cable.  With a published 
velocity factor of .695 and 3.28E-9 seconds difference, the delta came out to 
27” vs the measured 27.87”.  Of course the RG316 VF wasn’t accurate to the 
number of digits needed to get any closer.  I was demonstrating the precision 
of the equipment I was using to my son who is becoming somewhat of a mad 
scientist like his father.


> On May 7, 2017, at 8:15 PM, Hal Murray  wrote:
> 
> 
> je...@hanler.com said:
>> I thought I had seen somewhere where people were getting higher resolution
>> using software along with the 5335, no?
> 
> I don't know about the 5335, but if you talk to a 5334 via GPIB, you can get 
> more digits than fit on the display.
> 
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
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[time-nuts] Using 5335 frequency counter for timing

[Jerry Hancock]

I was showing my son how we could measure the difference in cable lengths by 
using the velocity of light and cable velocity factor.  I used a scope to 
measure the offset and was then thinking the 5335 could do it more accurately, 
but I was wrong, as it only reports to the nanosecond.  I thought I had seen 
somewhere where people were getting higher resolution using software along with 
the 5335, no?

Thanks
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Re: [time-nuts] TAPR Oncore M12+ kit

[Jerry Hancock]

One other point, if you have the plates and just need them milled, that is 
pretty easy work.   I could make the model from the drawings and then just run 
them off.  The only challenge is that something always goes wrong no matter how 
careful I am so ideally, it would be best to be able to purchase the end plates 
separately. 



> On Apr 28, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> The dimensions, including the holes that need to be CNC’d into the plates are
> attached an earlier message in this thread. The main link is:
> 
> http://www.synergy-gps.com/index.php?option=com_content=view=54=73
>  
> <http://www.synergy-gps.com/index.php?option=com_content=view=54=73>
> 
> The dimensions are at the bottom of:
> 
> http://www.synergy-gps.com/images/stories/pdf/tapr%20gps%20kit.pdf 
> <http://www.synergy-gps.com/images/stories/pdf/tapr%20gps%20kit.pdf>
> 
> The one that is the bigger issue is the “front” that has the D hole and a 
> connector 
> for a normal 9 pin serial connector. 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 28, 2017, at 3:19 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com 
>> <mailto:je...@hanler.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Is there a way I can help with this project?  If I had the specs to look at, 
>> maybe I would be able to run off a bunch of plates.  If we could batch them 
>> up I would do them for the cost of shipping.
>> 
>> Does anyone have a dimensioned print, picture, cad drawing of the plates?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 28, 2017, at 11:33 AM, jimlux <jim...@earthlink.net 
>>> <mailto:jim...@earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 4/28/17 10:09 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>>>> Hi
>>>> 
>>>> If you go with the PCB approach, the nice thing is getting stuff like
>>>> the slot for the D connector done at the PCB fab. That way you
>>>> have something that drops right in and works. The downside is that
>>>> not every pcb house is happy doing that sort of “CNC work”.  I
>>>> have absolutely no idea why. They all have to run some sort of gear
>>>> to cut the boards apart. Cutting slots or weird holes with it is pretty
>>>> trivial.
>>>> 
>>>> Bob
>>> 
>>> what about Front Panel Express?  They're in the whole business of small run 
>>> panels.  Not the cheapest place around, and you use their design tool, but 
>>> I've been happy with the quality of their work.
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] TAPR Oncore M12+ kit

[Jerry Hancock]

I would mill them for the price of shipping just to help out.  It would take 
about 10 minutes of setup and machining for the front panel and maybe a little 
longer for the back.  I could do two dozen pretty quickly on a weekend 
afternoon.

I mill keyed BNC and DBx connectors all the time. 



> On Apr 28, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> Well … keep in mind that my plan was to print the parts I need :)
> 
> It sounds like there are enough people interested to get an order going for a 
> couple 
> dozen sets. I’d guess more interest in a fully hogged out set than in the 
> “drill it yourself”
> approach. That assumes the cost does not go through the roof. The previously 
> quoted cost puts the plates at roughly half the cost of the kit they mate up 
> with. 
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Apr 28, 2017, at 4:41 PM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com 
>> <mailto:je...@hanler.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> do they need to be inset as in the drawing or will a flat piece of aluminum 
>> work?
>> 
>> I have some .25 thick aluminum.  I could mill a pocket which would add to 
>> the design and then mill the holes for the components.  That would take more 
>> machine time is all.
>> 
>> Generally, the way I mill plates such as these is I surface a piece of scrap 
>> and then glue (using superglue) the stock down onto the scrap.  I can then 
>> machine around the edges without worrying about clamping.  With pockets 
>> though, the torque even when ramping down might break the part loose.
>> 
>> How many plates are needed?
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 28, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org 
>>> <mailto:kb...@n1k.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> The dimensions, including the holes that need to be CNC’d into the plates 
>>> are
>>> attached an earlier message in this thread. The main link is:
>>> 
>>> http://www.synergy-gps.com/index.php?option=com_content=view=54=73
>>>  
>>> <http://www.synergy-gps.com/index.php?option=com_content=view=54=73>
>>> 
>>> The dimensions are at the bottom of:
>>> 
>>> http://www.synergy-gps.com/images/stories/pdf/tapr%20gps%20kit.pdf 
>>> <http://www.synergy-gps.com/images/stories/pdf/tapr%20gps%20kit.pdf>
>>> 
>>> The one that is the bigger issue is the “front” that has the D hole and a 
>>> connector 
>>> for a normal 9 pin serial connector. 
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>> 
> 

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Re: [time-nuts] TAPR Oncore M12+ kit

[Jerry Hancock]

do they need to be inset as in the drawing or will a flat piece of aluminum 
work?

I have some .25 thick aluminum.  I could mill a pocket which would add to the 
design and then mill the holes for the components.  That would take more 
machine time is all.

Generally, the way I mill plates such as these is I surface a piece of scrap 
and then glue (using superglue) the stock down onto the scrap.  I can then 
machine around the edges without worrying about clamping.  With pockets though, 
the torque even when ramping down might break the part loose.

How many plates are needed?


> On Apr 28, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> The dimensions, including the holes that need to be CNC’d into the plates are
> attached an earlier message in this thread. The main link is:
> 
> http://www.synergy-gps.com/index.php?option=com_content=view=54=73
>  
> 
> 
> The dimensions are at the bottom of:
> 
> http://www.synergy-gps.com/images/stories/pdf/tapr%20gps%20kit.pdf 
> 
> 
> The one that is the bigger issue is the “front” that has the D hole and a 
> connector 
> for a normal 9 pin serial connector. 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] TAPR Oncore M12+ kit

[Jerry Hancock]

Is there a way I can help with this project?  If I had the specs to look at, 
maybe I would be able to run off a bunch of plates.  If we could batch them up 
I would do them for the cost of shipping.

Does anyone have a dimensioned print, picture, cad drawing of the plates?



> On Apr 28, 2017, at 11:33 AM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 4/28/17 10:09 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> If you go with the PCB approach, the nice thing is getting stuff like
>> the slot for the D connector done at the PCB fab. That way you
>> have something that drops right in and works. The downside is that
>> not every pcb house is happy doing that sort of “CNC work”.  I
>> have absolutely no idea why. They all have to run some sort of gear
>> to cut the boards apart. Cutting slots or weird holes with it is pretty
>> trivial.
>> 
>> Bob
> 
> what about Front Panel Express?  They're in the whole business of small run 
> panels.  Not the cheapest place around, and you use their design tool, but 
> I've been happy with the quality of their work.
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter questions

[Jerry Hancock]

I don’t know what I was thinking when I asked this question as we don’t control 
the gate timing in a referenced counter.


> On Apr 26, 2017, at 3:59 AM, Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
>> On Apr 26, 2017, at 12:29 AM, Jerry Hancock <je...@hanler.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Do typical  frequency counters start their gate in phase with the incoming 
>> signal?  I guess the 
>> answer would be, "It depends."  I was just thinking about how I would 
>> program the STM32F7 
>> counter I am designing.
> 
> Since they don’t start (or stop) the gate in any specific relation to the 
> input signal, the trick is to
> make sure you don’t get an extra count when the gate opens or closes. This is 
> right back to the
> edge triggered vs level triggered issue. It also gets indirectly into the 
> rechecking process in the
> MCU. Some of the “edge trigger” stuff is done in odd ways ….(= got two of the 
> same after rechecking
> into a shift register …).
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
>> 
>> btw, Gilbert, a local time-nut, sold me a 5335 today so I will be able to 
>> buiild one great one 
>> out of the two I will have.
>> 
>> Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter questions

[Jerry Hancock]

Do typical  frequency counters start their gate in phase with the incoming 
signal?  I guess the 
answer would be, "It depends."  I was just thinking about how I would program 
the STM32F7 
counter I am designing.

btw, Gilbert, a local time-nut, sold me a 5335 today so I will be able to 
buiild one great one 
out of the two I will have.

Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter questions

[Jerry Hancock]

So the STM App note An-4776 teaches how to use an external clock and it looks 
pretty accurate in implementation.  I’ve read thru the code and it looks easy 
to implement.  Now I just need to bring another signal in and count it.  I’ll 
be working on some code this afternoon to implement the method. 

I also found a 5335 for cheap and ordered it.  It was listed on eBay as being 
in “excellent” condition though both pictures had all the lights lit so I can 
only assume it is stuck in power on reset or test.  I’ll see when it gets here.

As far as measurement techniques, if I use my scope and sync to a known signal 
using the trigger on my 3336, it looks like I can measure to .001hz pretty 
reliably.  So using the STM application, the 5335 and the scope + 3336, I 
should be off and running.

I’ll report back in a few days.

Jerry
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter questions

[Jerry Hancock]

Bob, I have an STM32F769 disco as well as the Nucleo version.  The big 
difference between the two is the LCD display on the Disco from what I remember.

I’ll play around with the code this week and report back.
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter questions

[Jerry Hancock]

Orin,  Thanks, this goes beyond interesting and I don’t know how you found it.  
I’ll be staring at this doc for the rest of the week.  I have a dozen or so of 
the Nucleo boards around include the high end F7 types so I’ll see if I can 
duplicate their code on the System Workbench they reference (and I have 
installed).

This afternoon I hooked up the output of my 3586 F0 (with the GPSDO reference) 
set to 15,000,000.0Mhz and then used my 3336 set to the same (again with the 
GPSDO) to see if I had any creep on my TDS3054B scope after syncing the two 
signals.  Just setting the 3336 to .001 higher causing the sine waves to go out 
of sync noticeably in a minute.  It’s been running about 2 hours and they still 
overlap perfectly when set to the same frequency.  

I think we all know what the issue is here in that the 3586 counter is probably 
adding a count here or there.  It’s just curious that it never seems to drop a 
count.  I would have thought I would see +.1 and -.1 with an equal distribution 
over a reasonable period of time of a few minutes but I don’t; I always see the 
+.1 or .0, never a 999.9 count (-.01).

If someone has a 5335 counter in the SF bay area they would like to unload, 
please send me a note at meters at hanler dot com.

By the way, your Geller ref is still running perfectly.  I’ll have to send it 
back to you for calibration soon as I think I have had it a year.

Jerry

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter questions

[Jerry Hancock]

This is an exercise more than anything.  It started when I noticed the counter 
in a 3586B I purchased was +1 count unless I dropped the input frequency .25hz. 
 I was using my GPSDO reference for it and the 3336 it was counting.  I then 
took my GPSDO and tried reading that directly and I see the same thing.  This 
is annoying more than anything and I assume there is a slight gate phase 
related issue.  I don’t have anything to read the jitter on my GPSDO which is a 
Lucent RFTG-U with the REF1 and REF0 but since I am using it as the reference 
and the signal under test, it shouldn’t matter at .1hz.  If I run the count 
over 3 minutes, the count is .923hz high consistently. To put a finer point on 
it, reading 10,000,000.00hz from my GPSDO, It will read consistently 
10,000,000.1 or 10,000,000.0 with the distribution of each to average 
10,000,000.923 over 5 minutes.  If I drop the input frequency by .25hz, it will 
read 10,000,000.0 without a 10,000,000.1 until the cows come home.  I’ve 
 let it run about a day to check. 

So I was thinking, o.k., let’s put a frequency counter on the back to read the 
F0 output signal rom the 3586B and see what it reads but I then realized I 
don’t have anything that accurate.  I do have a lot of micro processors around, 
everything from the lowly PIC thru the DSPIC to the STM32F7’s, F4’s and if I 
have to, I will get a FPGA and go from there.  I could purchase an HP 12 digit 
counter if I could find one locally as I am tired of paying shipping but 
haven’t found one to date. 

So no really pressing reason for the counter other than just curious as to what 
is causing the issue with the 3586B.  By the way, when I read any of the WWV 
signals they count +.1hz as well under constant signal.  I am pretty sure the 
3586B is recognizing my reference input as the OCXO is dialed to 10,000,000.0 
and the standard oscillator is a little high at +.4 (if I disconnect the OCXO 
strap) and I haven’t looked into it yet.

Thanks for the interest and help

Jerry
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