Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
One or two more things to consider in this ongoing thread about "spiritual death" - Since some believe this term to be unscriptural and/or metaphoric in nature - should we first run it by some theologians to make sure we have it right? The answer is NO! It is totally unprofitable to take the word "dead" out of it's scriptural setting to look fora man inspired doctrinal interpretation because scripture has organic unity, it is one growth with spirit and lifewhich testifies to the one Spirit breathing through all the different authors. 1. Does dead (in trespass and sin) mean corpse or cadaver like death so that it is impossible for ppl in this condition to understand or to hear God? No. At the time of the fall Adam heard when God spoke to him and he understood why God made a covering of animal skin and told him to offer a lamb from the flock. (Genesis) God told unbelieving Israel "Come now and let us reason together (Isa 1:18); He would not waste time reasoning with a spiritually dead cadaver who could not respond to truth. Jesus put responsibility on the unregenerate to enter at the strait gate (Matt 7:14) - why arn't more saved? Why arn't all saved? The bible says because so few are willing to come as repentant sinners and enter at the narrow gate of faith in Christ alone. Are they unable to hear and understand? No. Jesus said "The time is coming "and NOW IS" when the dead shall hear" (John 5:25) and when he said this the resurrection was future (John 5:28,29). Jesus describes passing from death to life (see John 5:24) In Acts Paul reasoned in the synagogue and persuaded both (unbelieving) Jews Greeks to believe (Acts 18:4). Paul wrote to the church at Corinth "knowing the terror of the Lord we persuade (unbelieving) men (2 Cor 5:11) It is also good to note that the bible uses the word dead to describesaved people also: Romans 6:2,7,11 Being dead to sin (does not mean that it is now impossible for a believer to sin) Romans 6:8 - Dead with Christ Colossians 2:20 Dead to the basic principles of the world Galatians 2:19 I through the law died to the law; (dead to the law) Colossians 3:3 For you died and your life is hidden with Christ in God (believers are dead) On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:53:25 -0600 "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: "Charles Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill,It appears in scripture that there is a point at which one becomes"spiritually alive". Often, this is referred to as "quickening". Check outthese verses: Ephesians 2:1 - And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses andsins; BT: Yes, and Paul clarifies in Eph 2.5 and Col 2.13 that this happened "together with Christ." When was Christ made alive from the dead? At his resurrection. When were we made alive together with him? At his resurrection. _ Ephesians 2:5 - Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us togetherwith Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) BT: Again, it was while they were dead that something happened which made them alive (by grace they were saved). In other words, it had nothing to do with anything they did on their part.When did this quickening take place? "together with Christ." _ Colossians 2:13 - And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision ofyour flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you alltrespasses; BT: It was while they were yet dead that this took place, their forgiveness included. _ 1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for theunjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, butquickened by the Spirit: BT: This is speaking of what Christ endured on our behalf as well as what he accomplished via his deathand resurrection, he "being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit." _ So, we might think of "spiritual death" as being "dead in trespasses andsins". It is when we come to believe and trust in Jesus (and all that itimplies) that we are "quickened", or gain spiritual life. BT: I know that this is what you believe, Perry, along with many other Christians today, but I ask you to consider how it is possible that your "belief" and "trust" have anything to do with this. Paul's tells us that this happened while his readers "were yet dead"; that is to saythat they were in a state of death when Christ accomplished this quickening on their behalf. _ How about these verses: John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, andbelieveth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not comeinto condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. BT: I very much love this verse; it is one of my favorites. It speaks to the assurance of salvation for those who
Re: [TruthTalk] The LDS Jesus needed to be saved!
Kevin what in the world is this?? Looks like the Mormon Jesus is not eternal in any sense of the word. This is some patchwork gospel and it is even endorsed by their President. Shows the danger of going outside of God's own revelation for understanding When we sow impatience we reap confusion. On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bruce McConkie confesses that "Christ... is a saved being."McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 257. The official student manual, Doctrines of the Gospel, teaches that "the plan of salvation which he [Elohim] designed was to save his children, Christ included; neither Christ nor Lucifer could of themselves save anyone." Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual Salt Lake City, UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint, 1986, p. 15. The same manual also quotes the tenth president and prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith, on the subject: The Savior did not have a fullness [of deity] at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking in which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words, he had not received the fullness until he got a resurrected body. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual Salt Lake City, UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint, 1986 pp. 9-10 Pres,Benson, "Jesus was a God in the pre-mortal existence," He was still imperfect and lacking certain necessary things. Benson, Teachings, p. 6. McConkie taught: "These laws [of salvation], instituted by the father, constitute the gospel of God, which gospel is the plan by which all of his spirit children, Christ included, may gain eternal life." McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 2:215 "Jesus Christ is the Son of God He came to earth to work out his own salvation." McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:238 "by obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God." McConkie, Mormon Doctrine Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Judy Taylor wrote: One or two more things to consider in this ongoing thread about "spiritual death" - Since some believe this term to be unscriptural and/or metaphoric in nature - should we first run it by some theologians to make sure we have it right? The answer is NO! It is totally unprofitable to take the word "dead" out of it's scriptural setting to look fora man inspired doctrinal interpretation because scripture has organic unity, it is one growth with spirit and lifewhich testifies to the one Spirit breathing through all the different authors. 1. Does dead (in trespass and sin) mean corpse or cadaver like death so that it is impossible for ppl in this condition to understand or to hear God? No. At the time of the fall Adam heard when God spoke to him and he understood why God made a covering of animal skin and told him to offer a lamb from the flock. (Genesis) God told unbelieving Israel "Come now and let us reason together (Isa 1:18); He would not waste time reasoning with a spiritually dead cadaver who could not respond to truth. Jesus put responsibility on the unregenerate to enter at the strait gate (Matt 7:14) - why arn't more saved? Why arn't all saved? The bible says because so few are willing to come as repentant sinners and enter at the narrow gate of faith in Christ alone. Are they unable to hear and understand? No. Jesus said "The time is coming "and NOW IS" when the dead shall hear" (John 5:25) and when he said this the resurrection was future (John 5:28,29). Jesus describes passing from death to life (see John 5:24) In Acts Paul reasoned in the synagogue and persuaded both (unbelieving) Jews Greeks to believe (Acts 18:4). Paul wrote to the church at Corinth "knowing the terror of the Lord we persuade (unbelieving) men (2 Cor 5:11) It is also good to note that the bible uses the word dead to describesaved people also: Romans 6:2,7,11 Being dead to sin (does not mean that it is now impossible for a believer to sin) Romans 6:8 - Dead with Christ Colossians 2:20 Dead to the basic principles of the world Galatians 2:19 I through the law died to the law; (dead to the law) Colossians 3:3 For you died and your life is hidden with Christ in God (believers are dead) == Excellent points, Judy. This is a keeper. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
1. No one is talking about corpse or cadaver. 2. Bill's point is that "spiritual death" is a term not found in the Bible although such wording was available to the various authors. 3. II Co 5:10 (perhaps) makes it clear that what we call "spiritual death" includes man in total - and it is for this reason that even his deeds done IN THE BODY will be considered - if he has rejected the reconciliation offered to him (IMO). Disciples of Christ are not so judged. JD -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 06:31:07 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death One or two more things to consider in this ongoing thread about "spiritual death" - Since some believe this term to be unscriptural and/or metaphoric in nature - should we first run it by some theologians to make sure we have it right? The answer is NO! It is totally unprofitable to take the word "dead" out of it's scriptural setting to look fora man inspired doctrinal interpretation because scripture has organic unity, it is one growth with spirit and lifewhich testifies to the one Spirit breathing through all the different authors. 1. Does dead (in trespass and sin) mean corpse or cadaver like death so that it is impossible for ppl in this condition to understand or to hear God? No. At the time of the fall Adam heard when God spoke to him and he understood why God made a covering of animal skin and told him to offer a lamb from the flock. (Genesis) God told unbelieving Israel "Come now and let us reason together (Isa 1:18); He would not waste time reasoning with a spiritually dead cadaver who could not respond to truth. Jesus put responsibility on the unregenerate to enter at the strait gate (Matt 7:14) - why arn't more saved? Why arn't all saved? The bible says because so few are willing to come as repentant sinners and enter at the narrow gate of faith in Christ alone. Are they unable to hear and understand? No. Jesus said "The time is coming "and NOW IS" when the dead shall hear" (John 5:25) and when he said this the resurrection was future (John 5:28,29). Jesus describes passing from death to life (see John 5:24) In Acts Paul reasoned in the synagogue and persuaded both (unbelieving) Jews Greeks to believe (Acts 18:4). Paul wrote to the church at Corinth "knowing the terror of the Lord we persuade (unbelieving) men (2 Cor 5:11) It is also good to note that the bible uses the word dead to describesaved people also: Romans 6:2,7,11 Being dead to sin (does not mean that it is now impossible for a believer to sin) Romans 6:8 - Dead with Christ Colossians 2:20 Dead to the basic principles of the world Galatians 2:19 I through the law died to the law; (dead to the law) Colossians 3:3 For you died and your life is hidden with Christ in God (believers are dead) On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:53:25 -0600 "Bill Taylor" wmtaylor@plains.net writes: From: "Charles Perry Locke" cpl2602@hotmail.com Bill,It appears in scripture that there is a point at which one becomes"spiritually alive". Often, this is referred to as "quickening". Check outthese verses: Ephesians 2:1 - And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses andsins; BT: Yes, and Paul clarifies in Eph 2.5 and Col 2.13 that this happened "together with Christ." When was Christ made alive from the dead? At his resurrection. When were we made alive together with him? At his resurrection. _ Ephesians 2:5 - Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us togetherwith Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) BT: Again, it was while they were dead that something happened which made them alive (by grace they were saved). In other words, it had nothing to do with anything they did on their part.When did this quickening take place? "together with Christ." _ Colossians 2:13 - And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision ofyour flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you alltrespasses; BT: It was while they were yet dead that this took place, their forgiveness included. _ 1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for theunjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, butquickened by the Spirit: BT: This is speaking of what Christ endured on our behalf as well as what he accomplished via his deathand resurrection, he "being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit." _ So, we might think of "spiritual death" as being "dead in trespasses andsins". It is when we come to believe and trust in Jesus (and all that itimplies) that we are "quickened", or gain spiritual life. BT: I know that this is what you believe, Perry, along with many other Christians today, but I ask you to consider how it is possible that your "belief" and "trust" have anything to do with this. Paul's tells us that this happened while
Re: [TruthTalk] The LDS Jesus needed to be saved!
Looks like the Mormon Jesus is not eternal in any sense of the word. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree, Judy. We believe one who is created can be eternal. Just as you, a created person, will become eternal once you obtain eternal life, so is Jesus eternal even though he was created by his Father in Heaven. Now.if on the other hand, you die and stay deadthen you would not be eternal. Jesus arose from the dead, never to die againhence, he is eternal. Does that make sense? Judy Taylor wrote: Kevin what in the world is this?? Looks like the Mormon Jesus is not eternal in any sense of the word. This is some patchwork gospel and it is even endorsed by their President. Shows the danger of going outside of God's own revelation for understanding When we sow impatience we reap confusion. On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bruce McConkie confesses that "Christ... is a saved being."McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 257. The official student manual, Doctrines of the Gospel, teaches that "the plan of salvation which he [Elohim] designed was to save his children, Christ included; neither Christ nor Lucifer could of themselves save anyone." Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual Salt Lake City, UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint, 1986, p. 15. The same manual also quotes the tenth president and prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith, on the subject: The Savior did not have a fullness [of deity] at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking in which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words, he had not received the fullness until he got a resurrected body. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual Salt Lake City, UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint, 1986 pp. 9-10 Pres,Benson, "Jesus was a God in the pre-mortal existence," He was still imperfect and lacking certain necessary things. Benson, Teachings, p. 6. McConkie taught: "These laws [of salvation], instituted by the father, constitute the gospel of God, which gospel is the plan by which all of his spirit children, Christ included, may gain eternal life." McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 2:215 "Jesus Christ is the Son of God He came to earth to work out his own salvation." McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:238 "by obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God." McConkie, Mormon Doctrine Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Im glad you agree Blaine. I await your born again experience with anticipation. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 6:59 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death In a message dated 7/26/2005 6:23:01 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh, at least now I think I understand where you are coming from, and your bias against the term, although I dont necessarily agree. I still think that you can be alive physically but not alive to the things of God. I was thinking about the terms born again vs born, and this caused me to think about the fact that an unborn fetus is alive, but it still needs to be born. That is us spirituallywe can be physically born, but not born into the realm of Gods Kingdom. We need to be quickened by the Holy Spirit. What do you think of that analogy? I agree--as would most Mormons, Izzy. That's because it is the truth as most Christians understand it. You see, we are not all that different from traditional Christians like yourself huh? Blainerb
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Neither was the word perichoresis or trinity or a thousand other terms. Does that mean Bill never uses them? iz 2. Bill's point is that spiritual death is a term not found in the Bible although such wording was available to the various authors. JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Bill, When I ask what difference does it make if I understand this or not? I am asking relative to salvation. Does my knowing what spiritual death is or is not affect the thou shalt be saved part? The answer is no. There are many who have and will live and die without ever hearing the term spiritual death or understanding it even conceptually, that still shalt be saved. My point being that while it is interesting to ponder and study these things, understanding them is not required. [This is the gist of my response. You can stop reading here. The rest is how I grapple with this personally.] I have always held to the premise that in order for salvation to be granted to anyone, it must be available to everyone, including those who may not have the capacity to study and understand theological things. If our salvation depends on our intellectual ability to understand anything more than we are saved by the blood of Christ, it is then available only to the intellectuals who can read and understand theological principles. If salvation is truly not of ourselves, then there is nothing we can do to change that other than believe (accept) or reject it. The esteemed theology professor at the great Christian university has no different a standing [relative to salvation] than the slowest of minds who believe. I do agree that it is good to know and understand the things of God and Christ, and that some are called to be teachers and pastors who should have answers to these types of questions. But, I also happen to know that there are many who love Christ, trusting and believing that they are saved by His blood, but either do not have the capacity, ability, or desire to know or understand much more than that. I do not think they are excluded from salvation for this. It is with those in mind that I ask what difference does it make if I understand this or not? Perry From: Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perry wrote By the way, what difference does it make if I understand this or not? It makes a difference in your ability to hold consistent and true beliefs pertaining to the things of God and to rightly explain those things to others. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
In a message dated 7/26/2005 8:47:54 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine, I had posed a few questions to you regarding the bom, and I fear you got sidetracked by Kevin's posts...lets try again, if you will...Most books, fiction and non-fiction, have internal consistency. But, they are typically written by a single author, so internal consistency is not remarkable in such books.The Bible was written by many authors over thousands of years, and shows internal consistency across author as well as time periods.1. How many authors wrote the bom over how many years?2. Is there consistency between the various authors of the bom?The Bible has hundreds if not thousands of external consitencies.3. What external consistencies does the bom show?Perry Perry, Sorry, yes, you are right, I got sidetracked by Kevin'santiquated anti-Mormon perspective stuff which for the most part, nobody in the Mormon Church believes or worries about. Oh, yeah, your questions--well, the BoM first of allis a very complex book. It is a translation of aset of plates writtenby two men--Mormon, and his son, Moroni. This set of plates, referred to as the Gold Plates, is a digest of other plates which these two men had access to, called the Large Plates of Nephi and the Small Plates of Nephi, plus other plates that showed up along the time period the BoM covers, which basically began when the Jaredites left the Tower of Babel, crossed the ocean in barges, and arrived in the Americas. Much later, around 600 BC, another group led by Lehi and his son Nephi left Jerusalem and disembarked off the coast of Arabia in a ship, and arrived somewhere off the coast of Middle America. About the same time, the Jaredites for the most part succeeded in wiping themselves off the face of the land. Uh, sorry perry, I have to go now, but will post this and get back to it later. Meantime, stay tuned. Thanks for you civil questions. Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
In a message dated 7/26/2005 8:51:11 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do I miss the point? The body, soul, mind and spirit are so integral to each other as to be without separation. If we are alive , we are alive in total. If we are dead, we are dead in total. Our bodies will be raised and reunited with soul mind and spirit (correct?) THEN transformed into a form we have yet to learn (I John 3:2) "Spiritual death" as a phrase tends to eliminate from our thinking the body, the mind and perhaps the spirit or the soul (if there is a difference). ?? JD Blainer: This seems a little confusing to me, w/o definitions in the first place as to what you mean by soul, spirit, mind, etc. I think I read you on what "body" means. :) That's a no-brainer. (Mormons believe a soul is the combo of spirit and body--just so you can see where I am coming from.)
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
In a message dated 7/26/2005 8:54:31 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Have you read any of the scholarly books and articles by LDS Authors? Blainer: Several, but I avoid books like Quinn's, for the simple reason that although he has no-doubt done extensive research, likeMANY OTHERS BEFORE HIM, he allowed himself to get lost in a sea of details, many of which he ascribed meanings to that were not fully justified. In short, I am afraid he interpreted what he read and saw in the light of his own human frailties and experience, which LED HIM TO SOME WRONG CONCLUSIONS. Itthen became a contest of wills, with Quinn refusing to back down even in the face of much evidence that he simply took the wrong slant on issues of import to the LDS Church. Too bad, the man was definitely smart--maybe too smart for his own good. His ego definitely got into it, and he lost the power struggle that ensued.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
In a message dated 7/26/2005 8:54:31 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Have you read any of the scholarly books and articles by LDS Authors? Blainer: Like Michael Quinn, for instance? The man is now a "has-been." He was excommunicated in 1993 (?)
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
In a message dated 7/26/2005 8:57:07 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: SEER STONES are OCCULT that is why Joe used them, along with all his other tools of the trade. At first the stones were used tofind Treasure and then he changed the story to the BoM Blainer: Occult simply means "hidden." Nothing inherently wrong with that. Seer stones depend on faith, I think, and just because Kevin would not be able to use one to good advantage, does not mean Joseph Smith was not able touse them--all according to your faith, my man. Joseph Smith also had the power to heal, to receive divine instruction, to see angels, to see God, etc. Are you just jealous of his great prophetic/seer powers? FOR EVERY HAND THAT REACHES FOR HEAVEN, TEN OTHERS REACH UP TO PULL IT DOWN. Ever hear of that little saying? It was also true of Jesus Christ, Abraham, Moses, even Peter, James and John--many others as well, who were seekers after the good and the true.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
In a message dated 7/26/2005 9:00:03 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why do you always focus on Minutia? Sort of like the Wizard of OZ. "PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!" Blainer: It is in the details that we are able to see the true and the good--the human body is a good example. Without looking at the details of its construction and functioning, we cannot appreciate what it took to create it.
Re: [TruthTalk] The LDS Jesus needed to be saved!
Fact is the LDS Jesus falls an INFINITE amount short of the Jesus of the Bible! The Jesus of the Bible is NOT, was NEVER LACKING anything! Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth ALL the FULLNESS of the Godhead bodily. The Jesus of the Bible has ALL Power to Save! Always has had that power did not earn that power. Jesus of the bible is not a Saved being but is the SAVIOR! Jesus of the Bible did not have to gain ETERNAL LIFE as ALL LIFE already resides in the Person of the CREATOR of LIFE Jesus Christ! The Character and person of the Jesus Christ of the BIBLE is drastically different from that ofthe BoM Jesus, they can not be the same person. Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Looks like the Mormon Jesus is not eternal in any sense of the word. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree, Judy. We believe one who is created can be eternal. Just as you, a created person, will become eternal once you obtain eternal life, so is Jesus eternal even though he was created by his Father in Heaven. Now.if on the other hand, you die and stay deadthen you would not be eternal. Jesus arose from the dead, never to die againhence, he is eternal. Does that make sense?Judy Taylor wrote: Kevin what in the world is this?? Looks like the Mormon Jesus is not eternal in any sense of the word. This is some patchwork gospel and it is even endorsed by their President. Shows the danger of going outside of God's own revelation for understanding When we sow impatience we reap confusion. On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bruce McConkie confesses that "Christ... is a saved being."McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 257. The official student manual, Doctrines of the Gospel, teaches that "the plan of salvation which he [Elohim] designed was to save his children, Christ included; neither Christ nor Lucifer could of themselves save anyone." Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual Salt Lake City, UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint, 1986, p. 15. The same manual also quotes the tenth president and prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith, on the subject: The Savior did not have a fullness [of deity] at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking in which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words, he had not received the fullness until he got a resurrected body. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual Salt Lake City, UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint, 1986 pp. 9-10 Pres,Benson, "Jesus was a God in the pre-mortal existence," He was still imperfect and lacking certain necessary things. Benson, Teachings, p. 6. McConkie taught: "These laws [of salvation], instituted by the father, constitute the gospel of God, which gospel is the plan by which all of his spirit children, Christ included, may gain eternal life." McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 2:215 "Jesus Christ is the Son of God He came to earth to work out his own salvation." McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:238 "by obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God." McConkie, Mormon Doctrine Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
What conclusions do you draw from Joe's involvement with MAGIC?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/26/2005 8:54:31 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Have you read any of the scholarly books and articles by LDS Authors? Blainer: Several, but I avoid books like Quinn's, for the simple reason that although he has no-doubt done extensive research, likeMANY OTHERS BEFORE HIM, he allowed himself to get lost in a sea of details, many of which he ascribed meanings to that were not fully justified. In short, I am afraid he interpreted what he read and saw in the light of his own human frailties and experience, which LED HIM TO SOME WRONG CONCLUSIONS. Itthen became a contest of wills, with Quinn refusing to back down even in the face of much evidence that he simply took the wrong slant on issues of import to the LDS Church. Too bad, the man was definitely smart--maybe too smart for his own good. His ego definitely got into it, and he lost the power struggle that ensued. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
So because he was EXed his scholarly work should be ignored? Is that what you think? Because he was EXed he can never be a reliable source as a HISTORIAN? Does being EXed effect other areas too?Would you avoid hiring any EX for jobs? Never mind that man behind the curtain, look over here![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/26/2005 8:54:31 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Have you read any of the scholarly books and articles by LDS Authors? Blainer: Like Michael Quinn, for instance? The man is now a "has-been." He was excommunicated in 1993 (?)__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Did Jesus carry SEER STONES? How about the Apostles? John the Baptist? The problem is not how skilled one is with these tools of the trade but that God condemned them! What did Joe use the Jupiter Talisman for? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/26/2005 8:57:07 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: SEER STONES are OCCULT that is why Joe used them, along with all his other tools of the trade. At first the stones were used tofind Treasure and then he changed the story to the BoM Blainer: Occult simply means "hidden." Nothing inherently wrong with that. Seer stones depend on faith, I think, and just because Kevin would not be able to use one to good advantage, does not mean Joseph Smith was not able touse them--all according to your faith, my man. Joseph Smith also had the power to heal, to receive divine instruction, to see angels, to see God, etc. Are you just jealous of his great prophetic/seer powers? FOR EVERY HAND THAT REACHES FOR HEAVEN, TEN OTHERS REACH UP TO PULL IT DOWN. Ever hear of that little saying? It was also true of Jesus Christ, Abraham, Moses, even Peter, James and John--many others as well, who were seekers after the good and the true. Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
But we do not focus on the minutia while at the same time ignoring all the other overwhelming evidence before our eyes. LDS are always saying yes, but look over here, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. He is an ANTI or worse yet he was EXed! One can not discount even the smallest piece of evidence. As a scientist all evidence must be given equal credence Untill all evidence aligns with a particular theory, you do not have a viable theory. Einstein added a fudge factor to his theory, in order to make it conform to his mechanical view of the universe. he said it was the worst mistake he ever made in his career. It all angles do not add up, go back to the start and RE-check everything. If you continue to ignore all the "BAD" data it will be to your own hurt. There is NOTHING as sad as an individual who decieves there OWN SELF! 1 Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself 1 Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/26/2005 9:00:03 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why do you always focus on Minutia? Sort of like the Wizard of OZ. "PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!" Blainer: It is in the details that we are able to see the true and the good--the human body is a good example. Without looking at the details of its construction and functioning, we cannot appreciate what it took to create it. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:52:00 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1. No one is talking about corpse or cadaver. jt: Your friend has spoken of both in the past JD, you must have overlooked it. 2. Bill's point is that "spiritual death" is a term not found in the Bible although such wording was available to the various authors. jt: What kind of a death does scripture refer to then - How did Adam die that day in the garden when he disobeyed God? It wasn't physical and it wasn't intellectual. 3. II Co 5:10 (perhaps) makes it clear that what we call "spiritual death" includes man in total - and it is for this reason that even his deeds done IN THE BODY will be considered - if he has rejected the reconciliation offered to him (IMO). Disciples of Christ are not so judged. JD jt: Only problem is that the total man did not die JD; he was still able to understand simple directions and he continued as a living - breathing human being. What he lost was his relationship with God who is a spirit. From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com One or two more things to consider in this ongoing thread about "spiritual death" - Since some believe this term to be unscriptural and/or metaphoric in nature - should we first run it by some theologians to make sure we have it right? The answer is NO! It is totally unprofitable to take the word "dead" out of it's scriptural setting to look fora man inspired doctrinal interpretation because scripture has organic unity, it is one growth with spirit and lifewhich testifies to the one Spirit breathing through all the different authors. 1. Does dead (in trespass and sin) mean corpse or cadaver like death so that it is impossible for ppl in this condition to understand or to hear God? No. At the time of the fall Adam heard when God spoke to him and he understood why God made a covering of animal skin and told him to offer a lamb from the flock. (Genesis) God told unbelieving Israel "Come now and let us reason together (Isa 1:18); He would not waste time reasoning with a spiritually dead cadaver who could not respond to truth. Jesus put responsibility on the unregenerate to enter at the strait gate (Matt 7:14) - why arn't more saved? Why arn't all saved? The bible says because so few are willing to come as repentant sinners and enter at the narrow gate of faith in Christ alone. Are they unable to hear and understand? No. Jesus said "The time is coming "and NOW IS" when the dead shall hear" (John 5:25) and when he said this the resurrection was future (John 5:28,29). Jesus describes passing from death to life (see John 5:24) In Acts Paul reasoned in the synagogue and persuaded both (unbelieving) Jews Greeks to believe (Acts 18:4). Paul wrote to the church at Corinth "knowing the terror of the Lord we persuade (unbelieving) men (2 Cor 5:11) It is also good to note that the bible uses the word dead to describesaved people also: Romans 6:2,7,11 Being dead to sin (does not mean that it is now impossible for a believer to sin) Romans 6:8 - Dead with Christ Colossians 2:20 Dead to the basic principles of the world Galatians 2:19 I through the law died to the law; (dead to the law) Colossians 3:3 For you died and your life is hidden with Christ in God (believers are dead) On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:53:25 -0600 "Bill Taylor" wmtaylor@plains.net writes: From: "Charles Perry Locke" cpl2602@hotmail.com Bill,It appears in scripture that there is a point at which one becomes"spiritually alive". Often, this is referred to as "quickening". Check outthese verses: Ephesians 2:1 - And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses andsins; BT: Yes, and Paul clarifies in Eph 2.5 and Col 2.13 that this happened "together with Christ." When was Christ made alive from the dead? At his resurrection. When were we made alive together with him? At his resurrection. _ Ephesians 2:5 - Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us togetherwith Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) BT: Again, it was while they were dead that something happened which made them alive (by grace they were saved). In other words, it had nothing to do with anything they did on their part.When did this quickening take place? "together with Christ." _ Colossians 2:13 - And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision ofyour flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you alltrespasses; BT: It was while they were yet dead that this took place, their forgiveness included. _ 1 Peter 3:18 - For Christ also hath once
Re: [TruthTalk] The LDS Jesus needed to be saved!
I should have qualified that and said "eternally alive" because I believe that all men are basically spirit beings and that they will live forever either in His presence or estranged from Him in a place that is probably a trillion times hotter than Virginia is today. I definitely couldn't accept the doctrine of your Bruce McConkie though. God is holy and so is His son from incarnation to resurrection, except for a 3hr period when he took our sin upon his holy person. judyt On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:06:29 -0700 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Looks like the Mormon Jesus is not eternal in any sense of the word. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree, Judy. We believe one who is created can be eternal. Just as you, a created person, will become eternal once you obtain eternal life, so is Jesus eternal even though he was created by his Father in Heaven. Now.if on the other hand, you die and stay deadthen you would not be eternal. Jesus arose from the dead, never to die againhence, he is eternal. Does that make sense?Judy Taylor wrote: Kevin what in the world is this?? Looks like the Mormon Jesus is not eternal in any sense of the word. This is some patchwork gospel and it is even endorsed by their President. Shows the danger of going outside of God's own revelation for understanding When we sow impatience we reap confusion. On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bruce McConkie confesses that "Christ... is a saved being."McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 257. The official student manual, Doctrines of the Gospel, teaches that "the plan of salvation which he [Elohim] designed was to save his children, Christ included; neither Christ nor Lucifer could of themselves save anyone." Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual Salt Lake City, UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint, 1986, p. 15. The same manual also quotes the tenth president and prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith, on the subject: The Savior did not have a fullness [of deity] at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking in which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words, he had not received the fullness until he got a resurrected body. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual Salt Lake City, UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint, 1986 pp. 9-10 Pres,Benson, "Jesus was a God in the pre-mortal existence," He was still imperfect and lacking certain necessary things. Benson, Teachings, p. 6. McConkie taught: "These laws [of salvation], instituted by the father, constitute the gospel of God, which gospel is the plan by which all of his spirit children, Christ included, may gain eternal life." McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 2:215 "Jesus Christ is the Son of God He came to earth to work out his own salvation." McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:238 "by obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God." McConkie, Mormon Doctrine Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Amen, Perry. Even little children are saved. iz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Perry Locke Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 8:29 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Bill, When I ask what difference does it make if I understand this or not? I am asking relative to salvation. Does my knowing what spiritual death is or is not affect the thou shalt be saved part? The answer is no. There are many who have and will live and die without ever hearing the term spiritual death or understanding it even conceptually, that still shalt be saved. My point being that while it is interesting to ponder and study these things, understanding them is not required. [This is the gist of my response. You can stop reading here. The rest is how I grapple with this personally.] I have always held to the premise that in order for salvation to be granted to anyone, it must be available to everyone, including those who may not have the capacity to study and understand theological things. If our salvation depends on our intellectual ability to understand anything more than we are saved by the blood of Christ, it is then available only to the intellectuals who can read and understand theological principles. If salvation is truly not of ourselves, then there is nothing we can do to change that other than believe (accept) or reject it. The esteemed theology professor at the great Christian university has no different a standing [relative to salvation] than the slowest of minds who believe. I do agree that it is good to know and understand the things of God and Christ, and that some are called to be teachers and pastors who should have answers to these types of questions. But, I also happen to know that there are many who love Christ, trusting and believing that they are saved by His blood, but either do not have the capacity, ability, or desire to know or understand much more than that. I do not think they are excluded from salvation for this. It is with those in mind that I ask what difference does it make if I understand this or not? Perry From: Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perry wrote By the way, what difference does it make if I understand this or not? It makes a difference in your ability to hold consistent and true beliefs pertaining to the things of God and to rightly explain those things to others. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Blainerb: What I hear Kevin saying is that hewants to eat, drink and be merry, but still be saved.He wants to have his cake and eat it too. His doctrinethat all who confess Christ go to heaven basically means there is no hell for Christians, just for others who did not confess Christ, such as the billions of Chinese, Africans, Indians, etc., etc., etc., children included. This traditional Christian faith is not just narrow, but extremely so.The samepsychology was what led to Black slaves beingdefined as soulless, to Jews beingscapegoated, to the American Indian being esteemed as nothing--killing one dealt with legally about the same as if you killed a dog. In a message dated 7/26/2005 10:34:22 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You see, we are not all that different from traditional Christians like yourself huh? Christians Believe in a Personal Relationship with Jesus LDS reject such. Bruce R. McConkie,stated that people who speak of a "special relationship with Christ" are guilty of "excessive zeal" and "pure sectarian nonsense." "Who Answers Prayers?" Sunstone Review (April 1982), 13 Christians Believe that the Blood of Jesus christ cleanses from ALL sin 1 JN 1:7 LDS The blood covers for some sins "Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one’s salvation. For instance, many believe or pretend to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal savior, we are thereby saved. They say that his blood, without any other act than mere belief, makes us clean." WHAT THE MORMONS THINK OF CHRIST, page 22 1976 edition Christians believe in Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus...Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:24, 28) LDS believe "What then is the law of justification?.. As with all other doctrines of salvation, justification is available because of the atoning sacrifice of Christ, but it becomes operative in the life of an individual only on conditions of personal righteousness." Mormon Doctrine, by Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, on page 408, under "Justification" MORMONS are NOT Chritians! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/26/2005 6:23:01 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh, at least now I think I understand where you are coming from, and your bias against the term, although I don’t necessarily agree. I still think that you can be alive physically but not alive to the things of God. I was thinking about the terms born again vs born, and this caused me to think about the fact that an unborn fetus is alive, but it still needs to be born. That is us spiritually—we can be physically born, but not born into the realm of God’s Kingdom. We need to be quickened by the Holy Spirit. What do you think of that analogy? I agree--as would most Mormons, Izzy. That's because it is the truth as most Christians understand it. You see, we are not all that different from traditional Christians like yourself huh? Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Since I've been accused of being one of the God manipulators - might I put my 2 cents in here please. Let me say that I am not requiring anything of anyone. So far as I'm concerned you Gary and everyone else can do whatever they want - but your blood will not be on my hands, nor on that of anyone else who has tried to speak truth to you. Those who reject truth judge themselves as unworthy and eventually God Himself gives them over to strong delusion so that they might believe the lie. jt On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' ||
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
Blainer: You can prove anything you want with statistics. During the year 2004, 3 new Mormon temples were dedicated, 2 re-dedicated, 0 were taken down, 119 in operation at end of year, with ten more in various stages of planning or building. Converts baptized were 241, 239. Total membership as of December 31, 2004, 12, 275,822, up about 3 million from 1998. New stake buildings, new ward buildings always being built, re-built etc, none taken down or destroyed that I am aware of. All church meeting houses are crowded, some with three wards using alternate time schedules, most with at least two wards doubling up. Sounds like progress to me. In a message dated 7/26/2005 10:48:48 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Keeping members a challenge for LDS churchMormon myth: The belief that the church is the fastest-growing faith in the world doesn't hold up http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2890645 When the Graduate Center of the City University of New York conducted an American Religious Identification Survey in 2001, it discovered that about the same number of people said they had joined the LDS Church as said they had left it. The CUNY survey reported the church's net growth was zero percent.
[TruthTalk] [Fwd: WorldNetDaily Court swearing-in 'So help me Allah']
- http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45455 WorldNetDaily Court swearing-in 'So help me Allah'.url Description: Binary data
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainer: You can prove anything you want with statistics. During the year 2004, 3 new Mormon temples were dedicated, 2 re-dedicated, 0 were taken down, 119 in operation at end of year, with ten more in various stages of planning or building. Converts baptized were 241, 239. Total membership as of December 31, 2004, 12, 275,822, up about 3 million from 1998. New stake buildings, new ward buildings always being built, re-built etc, none taken down or destroyed that I am aware of. All church meeting houses are crowded, some with three wards using alternate time schedules, most with at least two wards doubling up. Sounds like progress to me. == For a crowd like that you need a wide road.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
In a message dated 7/27/2005 8:54:23 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I’m glad you agree Blaine. I await your born again experience with anticipation. izzy That happened, as I remember it, when some of my relatives gathered together one night and recounted spiritual experiences, miracles etc, they had seen or participated in. I have never been the same since. I knew Mormonism was true.:) Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Please tell me, though, if you can the answer to my question: How is one regenerated if one was not dead in the first place? Thanks for your patience. izzy I will do that, Izzy, as best I can, but I would like to first address something else you said, and then use that as a segue into a discussion of regeneration and what it means to be "born again." You wrote that you were not confused at all untilyou got into this conversation and that I seem to take the simple and make it confusing. I am sorry that you feel that way, and I assure you that I am not trying to complicate things that are intrinsically simple. I also know that I am not as good a communicator as I want to be and ought to be, and so I keep trying to better my skills in that area and admit in the meantime my deficiencies. There is a proverb which says that one story sounds true until it is challenged by another(Pro 18.17). I think that is what's happening here. You have heard and used this language of spiritual death and regeneration and born again for a very long time, and since so many Christians hold beliefs similar to the ones you hold, yours have pretty much stood unchallenged; hence they seemed simple and self evident to you. Thensome guycomes along and speaks to these terms from a different vantage point and suddenly it seems that he has complicated and confused the issues. Well, on the one hand, I have complicated matters: I am workingfrom one set of presuppositions and you another. My thoughts don't easily fit in your box. In order for you to understand me, you are required to think out of the box. And that is always difficult to say the least.But as long as you attempt to fit my thoughts into your paradigm, they will seem complex and confused. And so you may never make sense of them. You may not even want to. But on the other hand, they are not complicated or confusing to me. And this because they are my thoughts;they fit comfortably within my working paradigm. It seems to me that the thing that matters most to you,is this: which "story" best addresses biblical issues? That isa good place to be and it is certainlyan important consideration from my paradigm as well. I happen to think, however, with my background and interest in matters of theological and historical significance,thatI am probably a little better equipped to consider these issues from a broader context, than perhaps you are or some of the others may be. This is not a criticism of you or the things which matter to you, but neither is it an apology on my part. I am who I ambecause God has designed me this way. It is important to me to be able to give consistent, cogent answers where others have failed. And I think in many instances I am able to do this.God has graced me with an ability to take multiple positions into consideration and then workthem towarda synthesis, which addressees both thepositivesand thenegatives ofthe variouspositions. I think this is part of what it means to be gifteda "teacher." As it pertains to the question of "regeneration" and being "born again," the church, and especially the "rivalist" church in America since the early 19th c., has done much to shift the emphasis of these terms away from their biblical root and source in Jesus Christ, to the activities of individual believers. With this shift has developed a whole new andbiblically foreign way of speaking about matters pertaining to salvation. Much stress has been placed on the "new birth" as an immediatelife-changing religious experience. David touched upon this in his discussion with you in regards to "the sinners prayer" and the vacancy of that practice in the New Testament witness. The language of "regeneration" is a great case in point. Contemporary Christians use this term to speak of the "conversion experience" and what happens in that event, as if it were often used in the NT in this same capacity; when in actual fact the term is used only twice and neither time in reference to conversion or "born again" experiences. The truth is, theNT does not use the term, as modern evangelicals do, for that which goes on in the "heart" of new converts. It speaks only in terms of the great and vicariousregeneration which took place in Jesus Christ in his resurrection, as something which God alone in the Holy Spirit through Christ did for humanity,and it speaks to the last day when the twelve will sit in judgment over Israel, and when all things shall be made newand rewards granted to those who have forsaken all to follow Christ. Yet we are accustomed to using this term in an entirely different way -- in a way that I would suggest has minimal if any referential correspondenceto our conversion experience. Now let's talk about "born again" and what that means in the context in which it was used. The same word that is translated as "again" in John 3.3 and 3.7, is used alsoin John 3.31. But in 3.31 it is translated not as
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
In a message dated 7/27/2005 2:13:51 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What conclusions do you draw from Joe's involvement with MAGIC? Blainerb: I have drawn none, since I am not convinced he was into magic to the extent you would have us all believe. As usual, you have assigned meaning to events that are basically shrouded in mystery--perhaps your conclusions are all wrong in the first place. There is no proof they have the meanings you ascribe to them. By the way, Sampson was promised that as long as his hair was not cut, he would have power against his enemies. His hair was like a covenant between him and God, and when the covenant was broken, his powers were weakened. Is this magic? It could easily be said to be such, especially with guys like you around jumping to conclusions. :) Further, JS gavea similarblessing to Orrin Porter Rockwell as wasgiven to Sampson, and since Orrin never allowed his hair to be cut, he was never killed by his enemies, despite being in numerous gun fights with them. I think talismans may have been seen in much the same way by Joseph Smith--a covenant with God. Or maybe he just liked the talisman's artwork. Who knows? Not wanting to JUMP to conclusions, I have drawn none.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
In a message dated 7/27/2005 2:17:20 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So because he was EXed his scholarly work should be ignored? Is that what you think? Because he was EXed he can never be a reliable source as a HISTORIAN? Does being EXed effect other areas too?Would you avoid hiring any EX for jobs? Never mind that man behind the curtain, look over here! I have at least two very good friends who were exed, both are sincere people. But they were exed for morality reasons. I think Quinn was exed for pride--thinking he knew more than the anointed ones who have been called up and chosen to lead the LDS church. I have not read quinn's book, but I am pretty sure that although he may have gotten his facts right, his conclusions were either inspired of the devil, as yours often are, :) Kevin, or he just plain got into a power struggle and had too much pride to admit he might be wrong. He stood in his own light, rather than the light of revealed orthodoxy. So, he fell, as did Satan, for much the same reasons. Pride cometh before a fall, as the saying goes. Blainerb
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Miracles or occultism? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death In a message dated 7/27/2005 8:54:23 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Im glad you agree Blaine. I await your born again experience with anticipation. izzy That happened, as I remember it, when some of my relatives gathered together one night and recounted spiritual experiences, miracles etc, they had seen or participated in. I have never been the same since. I knew Mormonism was true.:) Blainerb
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Who on TT has ever compelled anyone to do anythingas far as I can tell everyone still does his own thing. Heeding truth has never been compelling to most on TT. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 3:41 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' ||
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
In a message dated 7/27/2005 2:19:16 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Did Jesus carry SEER STONES? How about the Apostles? John the Baptist? The problem is not how skilled one is with these tools of the trade but that God condemned them! What did Joe use the Jupiter Talisman for?** Blainer: Unknown--he never said. Blainerb: The OT has several references to the Urim and Thummim, the "talismans" used by the High Priest to communicate with God. The shewbread were also talismans of sorts. Also, the Rod of Aaron, placed inside the Ark of the Covenant, was in effect a talisman. In fact, the Ark itself was basically a talisman--whenever it was carried into war, it was thought to be a protection against being defeated. When the enemies of Israel got hold of it, they were afflicted with sore diseases. Etc, etc, etc. Was this all magic? It was the power of God operating though the principal of faith. Joseph Smith's hanker chef, by the way, healed several persons of disease, simply because they had faith in him and anything associated with him. The same sort of situation when the woman touched the savior's robe and was healed.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
In a message dated 7/27/2005 2:31:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, Blainerb: I am glad you are such an exacting scientist, Kevin, but what about the principle of faith? Scientists for the most part allow no room for faith as a credible way of approaching lack of knowledge. Yet faith is the crux of all revealed true religion. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But we do not focus on the minutia while at the same time ignoring all the other overwhelming evidence before our eyes. LDS are always saying yes, but look over here, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. He is an ANTI or worse yet he was EXed! One can not discount even the smallest piece of evidence. As a scientist all evidence must be given equal credence Untill all evidence aligns with a particular theory, you do not have a viable theory. Einstein added a fudge factor to his theory, in order to make it conform to his mechanical view of the universe. he said it was the worst mistake he ever made in his career. It all angles do not add up, go back to the start and RE-check everything. If you continue to ignore all the "BAD" data it will be to your own hurt.
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Izzy is red: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Please tell me, though, if you can the answer to my question: How is one regenerated if one was not dead in the first place? Thanks for your patience. izzy I will do that, Izzy, as best I can, but I would like to first address something else you said, and then use that as a segue into a discussion of regeneration and what it means to be born again. You wrote that you were not confused at all untilyou got into this conversation and that I seem to take the simple and make it confusing. I am sorry that you feel that way, and I assure you that I am not trying to complicate things that are intrinsically simple. I also know that I am not as good a communicator as I want to be and ought to be, and so I keep trying to better my skills in that area and admit in the meantime my deficiencies. There is a proverb which says that one story sounds true until it is challenged by another(Pro 18.17). I think that is what's happening here. You have heard and used this language of spiritual death and regeneration and born again for a very long time, and since so many Christians hold beliefs similar to the ones you hold, yours have pretty much stood unchallenged; hence they seemed simple and self evident to you. Thensome guycomes along and speaks to these terms from a different vantage point and suddenly it seems that he has complicated and confused the issues. Well, on the one hand, I have complicated matters: I am workingfrom one set of presuppositions and you another. My thoughts don't easily fit in your box. In order for you to understand me, you are required to think out of the box. And that is always difficult to say the least.But as long as you attempt to fit my thoughts into your paradigm, they will seem complex and confused. And so you may never make sense of them. You may not even want to. But on the other hand, they are not complicated or confusing to me. And this because they are my thoughts;they fit comfortably within my working paradigm. It seems to me that the thing that matters most to you,is this: which story best addresses biblical issues? That isa good place to be and it is certainlyan important consideration from my paradigm as well. I happen to think, however, with my background and interest in matters of theological and historical significance,thatI am probably a little better equipped to consider these issues from a broader context, than perhaps you are or some of the others may be. This is not a criticism of you or the things which matter to you, but neither is it an apology on my part. I am who I ambecause God has designed me this way. It is important to me to be able to give consistent, cogent answers where others have failed. And I think in many instances I am able to do this.God has graced me with an ability to take multiple positions into consideration and then workthem towarda synthesis, which addressees both thepositivesand thenegatives ofthe variouspositions. I think this is part of what it means to be gifteda teacher. As it pertains to the question of regeneration and being born again, the church, and especially the rivalist (Revivalist) church in America since the early 19th c., has done much to shift the emphasis of these terms away from their biblical root and source in Jesus Christ, to the activities of individual believers. With this shift has developed a whole new andbiblically foreign way of speaking about matters pertaining to salvation. Such as Perichoresis or Trinity? Much stress has been placed on the new birth as an immediatelife-changing religious experience. David touched upon this in his discussion with you in regards to the sinners prayer and the vacancy of that practice in the New Testament witness. Im hoping you read my post on that regarding the fact that I was referring to one praying a non-scripted type of prayer to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. The language of regeneration is a great case in point. Contemporary Christians use this term to speak of the conversion experience and what happens in that event, as if it were often used in the NT in this same capacity; when in actual fact the term is used only twice and neither time in reference to conversion or born again experiences. I believe Ive read you using that term, have I not? The truth is, theNT does not use the term, as modern evangelicals do, for that which goes on in the heart of new converts. It speaks only in terms of the great and vicariousregeneration Book chapter and verse please?which took place in Jesus Christ in his resurrection, as something which God alone in the Holy Spirit through Christ did for humanity,and it speaks to the last day when the twelve will sit in judgment over Israel, and when all things shall be made newand
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
What I hear Kevin saying is that hewants to eat, drink and be merry, but still be saved. I guess you better listen more closely. This traditional Christian faith is not just narrow, but extremely so.The samepsychology was what led to Black slaves beingdefined as soulless, to Jews beingscapegoated, to the American Indian being esteemed as nothing You left out Traditional Christianity was responsible for all the wars too. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: What I hear Kevin saying is that hewants to eat, drink and be merry, but still be saved.He wants to have his cake and eat it too. His doctrinethat all who confess Christ go to heaven basically means there is no hell for Christians, just for others who did not confess Christ, such as the billions of Chinese, Africans, Indians, etc., etc., etc., children included. This traditional Christian faith is not just narrow, but extremely so.The samepsychology was what led to Black slaves beingdefined as soulless, to Jews beingscapegoated, to the American Indian being esteemed as nothing--killing one dealt with legally about the same as if you killed a dog. In a message dated 7/26/2005 10:34:22 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You see, we are not all that different from traditional Christians like yourself huh? Christians Believe in a Personal Relationship with Jesus LDS reject such. Bruce R. McConkie,stated that people who speak of a "special relationship with Christ" are guilty of "excessive zeal" and "pure sectarian nonsense." "Who Answers Prayers?" Sunstone Review (April 1982), 13 Christians Believe that the Blood of Jesus christ cleanses from ALL sin 1 JN 1:7 LDS The blood covers for some sins "Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose oneâs salvation. For instance, many believe or pretend to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal savior, we are thereby saved. They say that his blood, without any other act than mere belief, makes us clean." WHAT THE MORMONS THINK OF CHRIST, page 22 1976 edition Christians believe in Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus...Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:24, 28) LDS believe "What then is the law of justification?.. As with all other doctrines of salvation, justification is available because of the atoning sacrifice of Christ, but it becomes operative in the life of an individual only on conditions of personal righteousness." Mormon Doctrine, by Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, on page 408, under "Justification" MORMONS are NOT Chritians! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/26/2005 6:23:01 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh, at least now I think I understand where you are coming from, and your bias against the term, although I donââ¬â¢t necessarily agree. I still think that you can be alive physically but not alive to the things of God. I was thinking about the terms born again vs born, and this caused me to think about the fact that an unborn fetus is alive, but it still needs to be born. That is us spirituallyââ¬âwe can be physically born, but not born into the realm of Godââ¬â¢s Kingdom. We need to be quickened by the Holy Spirit. What do you think of that analogy? I agree--as would most Mormons, Izzy. That's because it is the truth as most Christians understand it. You see, we are not all that different from traditional Christians like yourself huh? Blainerb __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
Blaine: none taken down or destroyed that I am aware of. Now you are aware, or do you prefer to remaining inOZ to reality? http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2886597Avenues wards continue to lose members All that remains is a "for sale" sign on a dirt field.No longer are Mormon families streaming to the wardhouse on Sunday mornings. ...they watched as crews demolished the white concrete structure that once served as the heart of their predominantly LDS community. Declining membership forced the LDS Church to redraw boundaries in 2003, consolidating three stakes, which oversee wards, into two. http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2886596Mormon portion of Utah population steadily shrinking The LDS Church said its count comprises "all members" - including children in LDS families under age 8, when most Mormons are baptized, and nonpracticing members. http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2890645Keeping members a challenge for LDS church http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2890646Unintended consequence of church's 'raising the bar'Diminishing returns: With fewer missionaries going out, converts have slowed as well[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainer: You can prove anything you want with statistics. During the year 2004, 3 new Mormon temples were dedicated, 2 re-dedicated, 0 were taken down, 119 in operation at end of year, with ten more in various stages of planning or building. Converts baptized were 241, 239. Total membership as of December 31, 2004, 12, 275,822, up about 3 million from 1998. New stake buildings, new ward buildings always being built, re-built etc, none taken down or destroyed that I am aware of. All church meeting houses are crowded, some with three wards using alternate time schedules, most with at least two wards doubling up. Sounds like progress to me. In a message dated 7/26/2005 10:48:48 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Keeping members a challenge for LDS churchMormon myth: The belief that the church is the fastest-growing faith in the world doesn't hold up http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2890645 When the Graduate Center of the City University of New York conducted an American Religious Identification Survey in 2001, it discovered that about the same number of people said they had joined the LDS Church as said they had left it. The CUNY survey reported the church's net growth was zero percent. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Not wanting to JUMP to conclusions, I have drawn none. You should have said: not wanting to face the facts I ignore them. Each of us has to face the matter-either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing. President Gordon B. Hinckley. "Loyalty," April Conference, 2003. Everything may be sacrificed in order to maintain the integrity of those essential facts. Thus, if Mormon Enigma reveals information that is detrimental to the reputation of Joseph Smith, then it is necessary to try to limit its influence and that of its authors." - Apostle Dallin Oaks, footnote 28, Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith: Psychobiography and the Book of Mormon, Introduction p. xliii pay no attention to that man behind the curtain! AND As the "Apostle" said Some things that are true are not very useful.OR As Apostle Nelson said "Some truths are best left unsaid." OR Apostle Dallin H. Oaks said ""Truth surely exists as an absolute, but our use of truth should be disciplined by other values. ... When truth is constrained by other virtues, the outcome is not falsehood but silence for a season. As the scriptures say, there is a time to keep silence, and a time to speak. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/27/2005 2:13:51 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What conclusions do you draw from Joe's involvement with MAGIC? Blainerb: I have drawn none, since I am not convinced he was into magic to the extent you would have us all believe. As usual, you have assigned meaning to events that are basically shrouded in mystery--perhaps your conclusions are all wrong in the first place. There is no proof they have the meanings you ascribe to them. By the way, Sampson was promised that as long as his hair was not cut, he would have power against his enemies. His hair was like a covenant between him and God, and when the covenant was broken, his powers were weakened. Is this magic? It could easily be said to be such, especially with guys like you around jumping to conclusions. :) Further, JS gavea similarblessing to Orrin Porter Rockwell as wasgiven to Sampson, and since Orrin never allowed his hair to be cut, he was never killed by his enemies, despite being in numerous gun fights with them. I think talismans may have been seen in much the same way by Joseph Smith--a covenant with God. Or maybe he just liked the talisman's artwork. Who knows? Not wanting to JUMP to conclusions, I have drawn none. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
I think Quinn was exed for pride--thinking he knew more than the anointed ones who have been called up and chosen to lead the LDS church. Right it is drummed into LDS minds: NEVER CRITICIZE our leaders even if it is true! "It is one thing to depreciate a person who exercises corporate power or even government power. It is quite another thing to criticize or depreciate a person for the performance of an office to which he or she has been called of God. It does not matter that the criticism is true." " As Elder George F. Richards, President of the Council of the Twelve, said in a conference address in April 1947, 'when we say anything bad about the leaders of the Church, whether true or false, we tend to impair their influence and their usefulness and are thus working against the Lord and his cause.' ... The Holy Ghost will not guide or confirm criticism of the Lord's anointed, or of Church leaders, local or general. This reality should be part of the spiritual evaluation that LDS readers and viewers apply to those things written about our history and those who made it." Dallin H. Oaks, "Reading Church History," CES Doctrine and Covenants Symposium, Brigham Young University, 16 Aug. 1985, page 25. also see Dallin H. Oaks, "Elder Decries Criticism of LDS Leaders," quoted in The Salt Lake Tribune, Sunday August 18, 1985, p. 2B That historian or scholar who delights in pointing out the weaknesses and frailties of present or past leaders destroys faith. A destroyer of faith particularly one within the Church, and more particularly one who is employed specifically to build faith places himself in great spiritual jeopardy. He is serving the wrong master, and unless he repents, he will not be among the faithful in the eternities. ... Do not spread disease germs!"- Boyd K. Packer, "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect", 1981, BYU Studies, Vol. 21, No. 3, pp. 259-271 WATCH HOW LDS PUT THE SCRIPTURE ON IT'S HEAD:"Any who are tempted to rake through the annals of history, to use truth unrighteously, or to dig up facts with the intent to defame or destroy, should hearken to this warning of scripture: The righteousness of God [is] revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. (Rom. 1:17-18.) "I repeat: 'The wrath of God is against all who hold the truth in unrighteousness.'" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/27/2005 2:17:20 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So because he was EXed his scholarly work should be ignored? Is that what you think? Because he was EXed he can never be a reliable source as a HISTORIAN? Does being EXed effect other areas too?Would you avoid hiring any EX for jobs? Never mind that man behind the curtain, look over here! I have at least two very good friends who were exed, both are sincere people. But they were exed for morality reasons. I think Quinn was exed for pride--thinking he knew more than the anointed ones who have been called up and chosen to lead the LDS church. I have not read quinn's book, but I am pretty sure that although he may have gotten his facts right, his conclusions were either inspired of the devil, as yours often are, :) Kevin, or he just plain got into a power struggle and had too much pride to admit he might be wrong. He stood in his own light, rather than the light of revealed orthodoxy. So, he fell, as did Satan, for much the same reasons. Pride cometh before a fall, as the saying goes. Blainerb__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
More news: http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_2892446Identity crisis: MORMONS AS MINORITYchurch-going, active members probably comprise at most 42 percent of all Utahns Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blaine: none taken down or destroyed that I am aware of. Now you are aware, or do you prefer to remaining inOZ to reality? http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2886597Avenues wards continue to lose members All that remains is a "for sale" sign on a dirt field.No longer are Mormon families streaming to the wardhouse on Sunday mornings. ...they watched as crews demolished the white concrete structure that once served as the heart of their predominantly LDS community. Declining membership forced the LDS Church to redraw boundaries in 2003, consolidating three stakes, which oversee wards, into two. http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2886596Mormon portion of Utah population steadily shrinking The LDS Church said its count comprises "all members" - including children in LDS families under age 8, when most Mormons are baptized, and nonpracticing members. http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2890645Keeping members a challenge for LDS church http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2890646Unintended consequence of church's 'raising the bar'Diminishing returns: With fewer missionaries going out, converts have slowed as well[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainer: You can prove anything you want with statistics. During the year 2004, 3 new Mormon temples were dedicated, 2 re-dedicated, 0 were taken down, 119 in operation at end of year, with ten more in various stages of planning or building. Converts baptized were 241, 239. Total membership as of December 31, 2004, 12, 275,822, up about 3 million from 1998. New stake buildings, new ward buildings always being built, re-built etc, none taken down or destroyed that I am aware of. All church meeting houses are crowded, some with three wards using alternate time schedules, most with at least two wards doubling up. Sounds like progress to me. In a message dated 7/26/2005 10:48:48 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Keeping members a challenge for LDS churchMormon myth: The belief that the church is the fastest-growing faith in the world doesn't hold up http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2890645 When the Graduate Center of the City University of New York conducted an American Religious Identification Survey in 2001, it discovered that about the same number of people said they had joined the LDS Church as said they had left it. The CUNY survey reported the church's net growth was zero percent. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Urim and Thummim Was just a SEER STONE as J Fielding Smith said God does not take lightly the mixing of truth with Error or the Holy with PROFANE! EZ 22:26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/27/2005 2:19:16 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Did Jesus carry SEER STONES? How about the Apostles? John the Baptist? The problem is not how skilled one is with these tools of the trade but that God condemned them! What did Joe use the Jupiter Talisman for?** Blainer: Unknown--he never said. Blainerb: The OT has several references to the Urim and Thummim, the "talismans" used by the High Priest to communicate with God. The shewbread were also talismans of sorts. Also, the Rod of Aaron, placed inside the Ark of the Covenant, was in effect a talisman. In fact, the Ark itself was basically a talisman--whenever it was carried into war, it was thought to be a protection against being defeated. When the enemies of Israel got hold of it, they were afflicted with sore diseases. Etc, etc, etc. Was this all magic? It was the power of God operating though the principal of faith. Joseph Smith's hanker chef, by the way, healed several persons of disease, simply because they had faith in him and anything associated with him. The same sort of situation when the woman touched the savior's robe and was healed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
IT is not FAITH IN SPITE of the FACTS. A true faith reflects REALITY! It is not like some LDS believe "God took away the plates and made it look like they were not real so we could have more faith"[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/27/2005 2:31:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, Blainerb: I am glad you are such an exacting scientist, Kevin, but what about the principle of faith? Scientists for the most part allow no room for faith as a credible way of approaching lack of knowledge. Yet faith is the crux of all revealed true religion. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But we do not focus on the minutia while at the same time ignoring all the other overwhelming evidence before our eyes. LDS are always saying yes, but look over here, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. He is an ANTI or worse yet he was EXed! One can not discount even the smallest piece of evidence. As a scientist all evidence must be given equal credence Untill all evidence aligns with a particular theory, you do not have a viable theory. Einstein added a fudge factor to his theory, in order to make it conform to his mechanical view of the universe. he said it was the worst mistake he ever made in his career. It all angles do not add up, go back to the start and RE-check everything. If you continue to ignore all the "BAD" data it will be to your own hurt. Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Youmay have something here -- I don't know .But thanks for your input. Jd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:49:07 EDTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death In a message dated 7/26/2005 8:51:11 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do I miss the point? The body, soul, mind and spirit are so integral to each other as to be without separation. If we are alive , we are alive in total. If we are dead, we are dead in total. Our bodies will be raised and reunited with soul mind and spirit (correct?) THEN transformed into a form we have yet to learn (I John 3:2) "Spiritual death" as a phrase tends to eliminate from our thinking the body, the mind and perhaps the spirit or the soul (if there is a difference). ?? JD Blainer: This seems a little confusing to me, w/o definitions in the first place as to what you mean by soul, spirit, mind, etc. I think I read you on what "body" means. :) That's a no-brainer. (Mormons believe a soul is the combo of spirit and body--just so you can see where I am coming from.)
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
FYI - The MormonChurch is the 8t largest denom in the US with 2, 787,000 adherents. Churches of Christ in 9th with 2,503,000 members. Within the US, growth rates for bothgroups are nearly flat line.In foreign countries, however, Mormons have a very strong presence (somewhere around 11 to 13 million) will the Churches of Christ have only a few hundred thousands. I mention C of C because of the association this church has with the beginnings of the Mormon church (IMO). JD-Original Message-From: Terry Clifton wabbits1234@earthlink.netTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:32:06 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainer: You can prove anything you want with statistics. During the year 2004, 3 new Mormon temples were dedicated, 2 re-dedicated, 0 were taken down, 119 in operation at end of year, with ten more in various stages of planning or building. Converts baptized were 241, 239. Total membership as of December 31, 2004, 12, 275,822, up about 3 million from 1998. New stake buildings, new ward buildings always being built, re-built etc, none taken down or destroyed that I am aware of. All church meeting houses are crowded, some with three wards using alternate time schedules, most with at least two wards doubling up. Sounds like progress to me. ==For a crowd like that you need a wide road.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
A very thoughtful post, Perry. And much ofit very agreeable. JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:34:34 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Amen, Perry. Even little children are saved. iz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Charles Perry Locke Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 8:29 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Bill, When I ask "what difference does it make if I understand this or not?" I am asking relative to salvation. Does my knowing what "spiritual death" is or is not affect the "thou shalt be saved" part? The answer is no. There are many who have and will live and die without ever hearing the term "spiritual death" or understanding it even conceptually, that still "shalt be saved". My point being that while it is interesting to ponder and study these things, understanding them is not required. [This is the gist of my response. You can stop reading here. The rest is how I grapple with this personally.] I have always held to the premise that in order for salvation to be granted to anyone, it must be available to everyone, including those who may not have the capacity to study and understand theological things. If our salvation depends on our intellectual ability to understand anything more than "we are saved by the blood of Christ", it is then available only to the intellectuals who can read and understand theological principles. If salvation is truly not of ourselves, then there is nothing we can do to change that other than believe (accept) or reject it. The esteemed theology professor at the great Christian university has no different a standing [relative to salvation] than the slowest of minds who believe. I do agree that it is good to know and understand the things of God and Christ, and that some are called to be teachers and pastors who should have answers to these types of questions. But, I also happen to know that there are many who love Christ, trusting and believing that they are saved by His blood, but either do not have the capacity, ability, or desire to know or understand much more than that. I do not think they are excluded from salvation for this. It is with those in mind that I ask "what difference does it make if I understand this or not?" Perry From: "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perry wrote By the way, what difference does it make if I understand this or not? It makes a difference in your ability to hold consistent and true beliefs pertaining to the things of God and to rightly explain those things to others. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Legalists, when "holding office" in the Church of Right Teaching, do IN FACT require agreement on (their) pet issues or you are out. Such happens every week of every yearin the U.S. JD -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:18:42 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Since I've been accused of being one of the God manipulators - might I put my 2 cents in here please. Let me say that I am not requiring anything of anyone. So far as I'm concerned you Gary and everyone else can do whatever they want - but your blood will not be on my hands, nor on that of anyone else who has tried to speak truth to you. Those who reject truth judge themselves as unworthy and eventually God Himself gives them over to strong delusion so that they might believe the lie. jt On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
I do not believe that miracels prove one to be a disciple -- but I do beleive that every good and perfect gift comes from the Father of Lights. JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:17:08 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Miracles or occultism? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death In a message dated 7/27/2005 8:54:23 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I?m glad you agree Blaine. I await your born again experience with anticipation. izzy That happened, as I remember it, when some of my relatives gathered together one night and recounted spiritual experiences, miracles etc, they had seen or participated in. I have never been the same since. I knew Mormonism was true.:) Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Thats what happens after being in an Abusive "Church" you end up seeing "Legalists" hiding behinfd every tree[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Legalists, when "holding office" in the Church of Right Teaching, do IN FACT require agreement on (their) pet issues or you are out. Such happens every week of every yearin the U.S. JD -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:18:42 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Since I've been accused of being one of the God manipulators - might I put my 2 cents in here please. Let me say that I am not requiring anything of anyone. So far as I'm concerned you Gary and everyone else can do whatever they want - but your blood will not be on my hands, nor on that of anyone else who has tried to speak truth to you. Those who reject truth judge themselves as unworthy and eventually God Himself gives them over to strong delusion so that they might believe the lie. jt On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' || Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
This traditional Christian faith is not just narrow, but extremely so. Don't you just hate those Narrow Minded Christians? Who was it that said? Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: What I hear Kevin saying is that hewants to eat, drink and be merry, but still be saved.He wants to have his cake and eat it too. His doctrinethat all who confess Christ go to heaven basically means there is no hell for Christians, just for others who did not confess Christ, such as the billions of Chinese, Africans, Indians, etc., etc., etc., children included. This traditional Christian faith is not just narrow, but extremely so.The samepsychology was what led to Black slaves beingdefined as soulless, to Jews beingscapegoated, to the American Indian being esteemed as nothing--killing one dealt with legally about the same as if you killed a dog. In a message dated 7/26/2005 10:34:22 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You see, we are not all that different from traditional Christians like yourself huh? Christians Believe in a Personal Relationship with Jesus LDS reject such. Bruce R. McConkie,stated that people who speak of a "special relationship with Christ" are guilty of "excessive zeal" and "pure sectarian nonsense." "Who Answers Prayers?" Sunstone Review (April 1982), 13 Christians Believe that the Blood of Jesus christ cleanses from ALL sin 1 JN 1:7 LDS The blood covers for some sins "Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose oneâs salvation. For instance, many believe or pretend to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal savior, we are thereby saved. They say that his blood, without any other act than mere belief, makes us clean." WHAT THE MORMONS THINK OF CHRIST, page 22 1976 edition Christians believe in Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus...Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:24, 28) LDS believe "What then is the law of justification?.. As with all other doctrines of salvation, justification is available because of the atoning sacrifice of Christ, but it becomes operative in the life of an individual only on conditions of personal righteousness." Mormon Doctrine, by Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, on page 408, under "Justification" MORMONS are NOT Chritians! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/26/2005 6:23:01 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh, at least now I think I understand where you are coming from, and your bias against the term, although I donââ¬â¢t necessarily agree. I still think that you can be alive physically but not alive to the things of God. I was thinking about the terms born again vs born, and this caused me to think about the fact that an unborn fetus is alive, but it still needs to be born. That is us spirituallyââ¬âwe can be physically born, but not born into the realm of Godââ¬â¢s Kingdom. We need to be quickened by the Holy Spirit. What do you think of that analogy? I agree--as would most Mormons, Izzy. That's because it is the truth as most Christians understand it. You see, we are not all that different from traditional Christians like yourself huh? Blainerb __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
are you using this obseration asan argument against Bill's position? Me I am going to think about it, thinking there might bea reason for the ommission of "spiritual" death since the word was available to the authors of the NT. No such luck for "trinity" or "perichoresis." -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:16:31 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Neither was the word ?perichoresis? or ?trinity? or a thousand other terms. Does that mean Bill never uses them? iz 2. Bill's point is that "spiritual death" is a term not found in the Bible although such wording was available to the various authors. JD
Re: [TruthTalk] The LDS Jesus needed to be saved!
If the LDS Jesus needed to be "SAVED", from what did he need to be saved from? Does this mean he was subject to Death because of sin? The "gods" of Mormonism are limited restricted in space: As a Spirit personage the Holy Ghost has size and dimensions. He does not fill the immensity of space, and cannot be everywhere present in person at the same time. J Fielding Smith Doctrines of Salvation 1:38 "The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than the Father or the Son, but by his intelligence, his knowledge, his power and influence, over and through the laws of nature, he is and can be omnipresent throughout all the works of God" Joe F Smith Gospel Doctrine p 61 NOT SO the LIMITLESS God of the Bible! The God of Mormonism comes FROM the Universe. The Universe did not come forth from this "God" as it is also eternal. He just organized his own planet. "In contrast to the self-sufficient and solitary absolute who creates ex nihilo (out of nothing), the Mormon God did not bring into being the ultimate constituents of the cosmos neither its fundamental matter nor the space/time matrix which defines it. Hence, unlike the Necessary Being of classical theology who alone could not not exist and on which all else is contingent for existence, the personal God of Mormonism confronts uncreated realities which exist of metaphysical necessity. Such realities include inherently self-directing selves (intelligences), primordial elements (mass/energy), the natural laws which structure reality, and moral principles grounded in the intrinsic value of selves and the requirements for growth and happiness." Blake Ostler, "The Mormon Concept of God," God is OMNIPRESENT Jer 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD. Psalms 139:7-10Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. God is OMNIPOTENT Isaiah 40:25-26 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One. Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth. God is OMNISCIENT Jer 32:19 Great in counsel, and mighty in work: for thine eyes are open upon all the ways of the sons of men: to give every one according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings: PS 147 "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit"Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bruce McConkie confesses that "Christ... is a saved being."McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 257. The official student manual, Doctrines of the Gospel, teaches that "the plan of salvation which he [Elohim] designed was to save his children, Christ included; neither Christ nor Lucifer could of themselves save anyone." Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual Salt Lake City, UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint, 1986, p. 15. The same manual also quotes the tenth president and prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith, on the subject: The Savior did not have a fullness [of deity] at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking in which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words, he had not received the fullness until he got a resurrected body. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual Salt Lake City, UT: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint, 1986 pp. 9-10 Pres,Benson, "Jesus was a God in the pre-mortal existence," He was still imperfect and lacking certain necessary things. Benson, Teachings, p. 6. McConkie taught: "These laws [of salvation], instituted by the father, constitute the gospel of God, which gospel is the plan by which all of his spirit children, Christ included, may gain eternal life." McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 2:215 "Jesus Christ is the Son of God He came to earth to work out his own salvation." McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:238 "by obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God." McConkie, Mormon Doctrine Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:52:00 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1. No one is talking about corpse or cadaver. jt: Your friend has spoken of both in the past JD, you must have overlooked it. Ask him. Let's put some money on it Judy. No one is talking about cadaver's. but monologue if you prefer. 2. Bill's point is that "spiritual death" is a term not found in the Bible although such wording was available to the various authors. jt: What kind of a death does scripture refer to then - How did Adam die that day in the garden when he disobeyed God? It wasn't physical and it wasn't intellectual. As I see it, they didn't."Death" in Genesis only refers to physical death. I cannot think of anything that book that conflicts with that statement. 3. II Co 5:10 (perhaps) makes it clear that what we call "spiritual death" includes man in total - and it is for this reason that even his deeds done IN THE BODY will be considered - if he has rejected the reconciliation offered to him (IMO). Disciples of Christ are not so judged. JD jt: Only problem is that the total man did not die JD; he was still able to understand simple directions and he continued as a living - breathing human being. What he lost was his relationship with God who is a spirit. The total man is dead already unless he uses what is already a part of his being to live the kind of life that validates what is pure and set apart in terms of lifestyle (God at work within to both will and accomplish ) Our choice RIGHT NOW, RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE, is between life and death. Every rich man, every whore, every legalist, every drugie has the same choice life and death. I know some who have made the connection (via repentance) and are alive because they are on the right path, as it were -- moving away from that wh ich so easily besets them while (in Christ) being viewed as beyond judgment. EVERYTHING about them - their mind, soul, spirit and body --- improves because of their joint participation with the Spirit. JD From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com One or two more things to consider in this ongoing thread about "spiritual death" - Since some believe this term to be unscriptural and/or metaphoric in nature - should we first run it by some theologians to make sure we have it right? The answer is NO! It is totally unprofitable to take the word "dead" out of it's scriptural setting to look fora man inspired doctrinal interpretation because scripture has organic unity, it is one growth with spirit and lifewhich testifies to the one Spirit breathing through all the different authors. 1. Does dead (in trespass and sin) mean corpse or cadaver like death so that it is impossible for ppl in this condition to understand or to hear God? No. At the time of the fall Adam heard when God spoke to him and he understood why God made a covering of animal skin and told him to offer a lamb from the flock. (Genesis) God told unbelieving Israel "Come now and let us reason together (Isa 1:18); He would not waste time reasoning with a spiritually dead cadaver who could not respond to truth. Jesus put responsibility on the unregenerate to enter at the strait gate (Matt 7:14) - why arn't more saved? Why arn't all saved? The bible says because so few are willing to come as repentant sinners and enter at the narrow gate of faith in Christ alone. Are they unable to hear and understand? No. Jesus said "The time is coming "and NOW IS" when the dead shall hear" (John 5:25) and when he said this the resurrection was future (John 5:28,29). Jesus describes passing from death to life (see John 5:24) In Acts Paul reasoned in the synagogue and persuaded both (unbelieving) Jews Greeks to believe (Acts 18:4). Paul wrote to the church at Corinth "knowing the terror of the Lord we persuade (unbelieving) men (2 Cor 5:11) It is also good to note that the bible uses the word dead to describesaved people also: Romans 6:2,7,11 Being dead to sin (does not mean that it is now impossible for a believer to sin) Romans 6:8 - Dead with Christ Colossians 2:20 Dead to the basic principles of the world Galatians 2:19 I through the law died to the law; (dead to the law) Colossians 3:3 For you died and your life is hidden with Christ in God (believers are dead) On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:53:25 -0600 "Bill Taylor" wmtaylor@plains.net writes: From: "Charles Perry Locke" cpl2602@hotmail.com Bill,It appears in scripture that there is a point at which one becomes"spiritually alive". Often, this is referred to as "quickening". Check outthese verses: Ephesians 2:1 - And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses andsins; BT: Yes, and Paul clarifies in Eph 2.5 and Col 2.13 that this happened "together with Christ." When was Christ made alive from the dead? At his resurrection. When were we made alive together with him? At his resurrection. _ Ephesians 2:5 - Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us togetherwith Christ, (by
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Where in scripture do we pray Jesus into our lives??? JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 18:47:26 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy is red: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Please tell me, though, if you can the answer to my question: How is one regenerated if one was not dead in the first place? Thanks for your patience. izzy I will do that, Izzy, as best I can, but I would like to first address something else you said, and then use that as a segue into a discussion of regeneration and what it means to be "born again." You wrote that you were not confused at all untilyou got into this conversation and that I seem to take the simple and make it confusing. I am sorry that you feel that way, and I assure you that I am not trying to complicate things that are intrinsically simple. I also know that I am not as good a communicator as I want to be and ought to be, and so I keep trying to better my skills in that area and admit in the meantime my deficiencies. There is a proverb which says that one story sounds true until it is challenged by another(Pro 18.17). I think that is what's happening here. You have heard and used this language of spiritual death and regeneration and born again for a very long time, and since so many Christians hold beliefs similar to the ones you hold, yours have pretty much stood unchallenged; hence they seemed simple and self evident to you. Thensome guycomes along and speaks to these terms from a different vantage point and suddenly it seems that he has complicated and confused the issues. Well, on the one hand, I have complicated matters: I am workingfrom one set of presuppositions and you another. My thoughts don't easily fit in your box. In order for you to understand me, you are required to think out of the box. And that is always difficult to say the least.But as long as you attempt to fit my tho ughts into your paradigm, they will seem complex and confused. And so you may never make sense of them. You may not even want to. But on the other hand, they are not complicated or confusing to me. And this because they are my thoughts;they fit comfortably within my working paradigm. It seems to me that the thing that matters most to you,is this: which "story" best addresses biblical issues? That isa good place to be and it is certainlyan important consideration from my paradigm as well. I happen to think, however, with my background and interest in matters of theological and historical significance,thatI am probably a little better equipped to consider these issues from a broader context, than perhaps you are or some of the others may be. This is not a criticism of you or the things which matter to you, but neither is it an apology on my part. I am who I ambecause God has designed me this way. It is important to me to be able to give consistent, cogent answers where others have failed. And I think in many instances I am able to do this.God has graced me with an ability to take multiple positions into consideration and then workthem tow arda synthesis, which addressees both thepositivesand thenegatives ofthe variouspositions. I think this is part of what it means to be gifteda "teacher." As it pertains to the question of "regeneration" and being "born again," the church, and especially the "rivalist" (Revivalist) church in America since the early 19th c., has done much to shift the emphasis of these terms away from their biblical root and source in Jesus Christ, to the activities of individual believers. With this shift has developed a whole new andbiblically foreign way of speaking about matters pertaining to salvation. Such as Perichoresis or Trinity? Much stress has been placed on the "new birth" as an immediatelife-changing religious experience. David touched upon this in his discussion with you in regards to "the sinners prayer" and the vacancy of that practice in the New Testament witness. I?m hoping you read my post on that regarding the fact that I was referring to one praying a non-scripted type of prayer to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. The language of "regeneration" is a great case in point. Contemporary Christians use this term to speak of the "conversion experience" and what happens in that event, as if it were often used in the NT in this same capacity; when in actual fact the term is used only twice and neither time in reference to conversion or "born again" experiences. I believe I?ve read you using that term, have I not? The truth is, theNT does not use the term, as modern evangelicals do, for that which goes on in the "heart" of new converts. It speaks only in terms of the great and vicariousregeneration Book chapter and verse please?which took place in Jesus Christ in his
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
No needto put anyone "out" JD. The Word of God is divisive and people who are not willing to do things His way get offended and eventually separate themselves. That is, unless there is a compromising preacher who wants to please ppl more than he wants to please God. jt On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:11:14 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Legalists, when "holding office" in the Church of Right Teaching, do IN FACT require agreement on (their) pet issues or you are out. Such happens every week of every yearin the U.S. JD From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com Since I've been accused of being one of the God manipulators - might I put my 2 cents in here please. Let me say that I am not requiring anything of anyone. So far as I'm concerned you Gary and everyone else can do whatever they want - but your blood will not be on my hands, nor on that of anyone else who has tried to speak truth to you. Those who reject truth judge themselves as unworthy and eventually God Himself gives them over to strong delusion so that they might believe the lie. jt On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' ||
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
DAVEH: Your numbers seem a little low, John. How old are they? Here's one from 3 years ago that is a bit higher.. http://www.religioscope.com/info/notes/2002_020_US_church_stat.htm And here is another that is from just a few months ago http://news.ucc.org/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=72Itemid=54 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI - The MormonChurch is the 8t largest denom in the US with 2, 787,000 adherents. Churches of Christ in 9th with 2,503,000 members. Within the US, growth rates for bothgroups are nearly flat line.In foreign countries, however, Mormons have a very strong presence (somewhere around 11 to 13 million) will the Churches of Christ have only a few hundred thousands. I mention C of C because of the association this church has with the beginnings of the Mormon church (IMO). JD -Original Message- From: Terry Clifton wabbits1234@earthlink.net To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 17:32:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainer: You can prove anything you want with statistics. During the year 2004, 3 new Mormon temples were dedicated, 2 re-dedicated, 0 were taken down, 119 in operation at end of year, with ten more in various stages of planning or building. Converts baptized were 241, 239. Total membership as of December 31, 2004, 12, 275,822, up about 3 million from 1998. New stake buildings, new ward buildings always being built, re-built etc, none taken down or destroyed that I am aware of. All church meeting houses are crowded, some with three wards using alternate time schedules, most with at least two wards doubling up. Sounds like progress to me. == For a crowd like that you need a wide road. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Yeah, John, I used the term "cadaver" in a metaphorical senseto point out the absurdity of thinking that spiritually dead humans coulddecide to respond to matters of spiritual importance. If their spirit is literally dead, they would not have the capability of making such choices.I said something like, How can one who is spiritually dead make a free-will determination to believe and hence be born again, so as to be made alive? Cadaverscan notmakechoices, let alone act upon them.That set off fire storm of false accusations from the one among us who lacks the ability to determine whenlanguage is meant to be takenliterally and when it is metaphorical in its thrust; hence the charge that I thought Jesus and Paul to be referring tocorpsesand physically dead bodies. Not hardly! So rock on, John. You're on the right track. Bill - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:52:00 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1. No one is talking about corpse or cadaver. jt: Your friend has spoken of both in the past JD, you must have overlooked it. Ask him. Let's put some money on it Judy. No one is talking about cadaver's. but monologue if you prefer. 2. Bill's point is that "spiritual death" is a term not found in the Bible although such wording was available to the various authors. jt: What kind of a death does scripture refer to then - How did Adam die that day in the garden when he disobeyed God? It wasn't physical and it wasn't intellectual. As I see it, they didn't."Death" in Genesis only refers to physical death. I cannot think of anything that book that conflicts with that statement. 3. II Co 5:10 (perhaps) makes it clear that what we call "spiritual death" includes man in total - and it is for this reason that even his deeds done IN THE BODY will be considered - if he has rejected the reconciliation offered to him (IMO). Disciples of Christ are not so judged. JD jt: Only problem is that the total man did not die JD; he was still able to understand simple directions and he continued as a living - breathing human being. What he lost was his relationship with God who is a spirit. The total man is dead already unless he uses what is already a part of his being to live the kind of life that validates what is pure and set apart in terms of lifestyle (God at work within to both will and accomplish ) Our choice RIGHT NOW, RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE, is between life and death. Every rich man, every whore, every legalist, every drugie has the same choice life and death. I know some who have made the connection (via repentance) and are alive because they are on the right path, as it were -- moving away from that wh ich so easily besets them while (in Christ) being viewed as beyond judgment. EVERYTHING about them - their mind, soul, spirit and body --- improves because of their joint participation with the Spirit. JD From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com One or two more things to consider in this ongoing thread about "spiritual death" - Since some believe this term to be unscriptural and/or metaphoric in nature - should we first run it by some theologians to make sure we have it right? The answer is NO! It is totally unprofitable to take the word "dead" out of it's scriptural setting to look fora man inspired doctrinal interpretation because scripture has organic unity, it is one growth with spirit and lifewhich testifies to the one Spirit breathing through all the different authors. 1. Does dead (in trespass and sin) mean corpse or cadaver like death so that it is impossible for ppl in this condition to understand or to hear God? No. At the time of the fall Adam heard when God spoke to him and he understood why God made a covering of animal skin and told him to offer a lamb from the flock. (Genesis) God told unbelieving Israel "Come now and let us reason together (Isa 1:18); He would not waste time reasoning with a spiritually dead cadaver who could not respond to truth. Jesus put responsibility on the unregenerate to enter at the strait gate (Matt 7:14) - why arn't more saved? Why arn't all saved? The bible says because so few are willing to come as repentant sinners and enter at the narrow gate of faith in Christ alone. Are they unable to hear and understand? No. Jesus said "The time is coming "and NOW IS" when the
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
JD you might remind your friend that corpses and cadavers can not sin either and neither term is Biblical since this has become the plumbline - or do we havedifferent rules for certain ones? On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:02:59 -0600 "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yeah, John, I used the term "cadaver" in a metaphorical senseto point out the absurdity of thinking that spiritually dead humans coulddecide to respond to matters of spiritual importance. If their spirit is literally dead, they would not have the capability of making such choices.I said something like, How can one who is spiritually dead make a free-will determination to believe and hence be born again, so as to be made alive? Cadaverscan notmakechoices, let alone act upon them.That set off fire storm of false accusations from the one among us who lacks the ability to determine whenlanguage is meant to be takenliterally and when it is metaphorical in its thrust; hence the charge that I thought Jesus and Paul to be referring tocorpsesand physically dead bodies. Not hardly! So rock on, John. You're on the right track. Bill - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:52:00 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1. No one is talking about corpse or cadaver. jt: Your friend has spoken of both in the past JD, you must have overlooked it. Ask him. Let's put some money on it Judy. No one is talking about cadaver's. but monologue if you prefer. 2. Bill's point is that "spiritual death" is a term not found in the Bible although such wording was available to the various authors. jt: What kind of a death does scripture refer to then - How did Adam die that day in the garden when he disobeyed God? It wasn't physical and it wasn't intellectual. As I see it, they didn't."Death" in Genesis only refers to physical death. I cannot think of anything that book that conflicts with that statement. 3. II Co 5:10 (perhaps) makes it clear that what we call "spiritual death" includes man in total - and it is for this reason that even his deeds done IN THE BODY will be considered - if he has rejected the reconciliation offered to him (IMO). Disciples of Christ are not so judged. JD jt: Only problem is that the total man did not die JD; he was still able to understand simple directions and he continued as a living - breathing human being. What he lost was his relationship with God who is a spirit. The total man is dead already unless he uses what is already a part of his being to live the kind of life that validates what is pure and set apart in terms of lifestyle (God at work within to both will and accomplish ) Our choice RIGHT NOW, RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE, is between life and death. Every rich man, every whore, every legalist, every drugie has the same choice life and death. I know some who have made the connection (via repentance) and are alive because they are on the right path, as it were -- moving away from that wh ich so easily besets them while (in Christ) being viewed as beyond judgment. EVERYTHING about them - their mind, soul, spirit and body --- improves because of their joint participation with the Spirit. JD From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com One or two more things to consider in this ongoing thread about "spiritual death" - Since some believe this term to be unscriptural and/or metaphoric in nature - should we first run it by some theologians to make sure we have it right? The answer is NO! It is totally unprofitable to take the word "dead" out of it's scriptural setting to look fora man inspired doctrinal interpretation because scripture has organic unity, it is one growth with spirit and lifewhich testifies to the one Spirit breathing through all the different authors. 1. Does dead (in trespass and sin) mean corpse or cadaver like death so that it is impossible for ppl in this condition to understand or to hear God? No. At the time of the fall Adam heard when God spoke to him and he understood why God made a covering of animal skin and told him to offer a lamb from the flock. (Genesis) God told unbelieving Israel "Come now and let us reason
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:52:00 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:1. No one is talking about corpse or cadaver. jt: Your friend has spoken of both in the past JD, you must have overlooked it. Ask him. Let's put some money on it Judy. No one is talking about cadaver's. but monologue if you prefer. 2. Bill's point is that "spiritual death" is a term not found in the Bible although such wording was available to the various authors. jt: What kind of a death does scripture refer to then - How did Adam die that day in the garden when he disobeyed God? It wasn't physical and it wasn't intellectual. As I see it, they didn't. "Death" in Genesis only refers to physical death. I cannot think of anything that book that conflicts with that statement. jt: Well here we go propagating the same error all over again. Are you saying that God didn't mean what He said? He told Adam THE DAY you eat you shall surely die, not 960 yrs down the road. Also a day is defined in Genesis lest we get to the 1,000 yr day speculations. Is God like a human parent who threatens but does not doanything? 3. II Co 5:10 (perhaps) makes it clear that what we call "spiritual death" includes man in total - and it is for this reason that even his deeds done IN THE BODY will be considered - if he has rejected the reconciliation offered to him (IMO). Disciples of Christ are not so judged. JD jt: Only problem is that the total man did not die JD; he was still able to understand simple directions and hecontinued as a living - breathing human being. What he lost was his relationship with God who is a spirit. The total man is dead already unless he uses what is already a part of his being to live the kind of life that validates what is pure and set apart in terms of lifestyle (God at work within to both will and accomplish ) Our choice RIGHT NOW, RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE, is between life and death. Every rich man, every whore, every legalist, every drugie has the same choice life and death. I know some who have made the connection (via repentance) and are alive because they are on the right path, as it were -- moving away from that wh ich so easily besets them while (in Christ) being viewed as beyond judgment. EVERYTHING about them - their mind, soul, spirit and body --- improves because of their joint participation with the Spirit. JD jt: I have no problem with the above JD; there is a lot to be said for moving along on the right pat so long as it's the narrow road that leads to life. From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] One or two more things to consider in this ongoing thread about "spiritual death" - Since some believe this term to be unscriptural and/or metaphoric in nature - should we first run it by some theologians to make sure we have it right? The answer is NO! It is totally unprofitable to take the word "dead" out of it's scriptural setting to look for a man inspired doctrinal interpretation because scripture has organic unity, it is one growth with spirit and life which testifies to the one Spirit breathing through all the different authors. 1. Does dead (in trespass and sin) mean corpse or cadaver like death so that it is impossible for ppl in this condition to understand or to hear God? No. At the time of the fall Adam heard when God spoke to him and he understood why God made a covering of animal skin and told him to offer a lamb from the flock. (Genesis) God told unbelieving Israel "Come now and let us reason together (Isa 1:18); He would not waste time reasoning with a spiritually dead cadaver who could not respond to truth. Jesus put responsibility on the unregenerate to enter at the strait gate (Matt 7:14) - why arn't more saved? Why arn't all saved? The bible says because so few are willing to come as repentant sinners and enter at the narrow gate of faith in Christ alone. Are they unable to hear and understand? No. Jesus said "The time is coming "and NOW IS" when the dead shall hear" (John 5:25) and when he said this the resurrection was future (John 5:28,29). Jesus describes passing from death to life (see John 5:24) In Acts Paul reasoned in the synagogue and persuaded both (unbelieving) Jews Greeks to believe (Acts 18:4).Paul wrote to the church at Corinth "knowing the terror of the Lord we persuade (unbelieving) men (2 Cor 5:11) It is also good to note that the bible uses the word dead to describe saved people also:Romans 6:2,7,11 Being dead to sin (does not mean that it is now impossible for a believer to sin)Romans 6:8 - Dead with ChristColossians 2:20 Dead to the basic principles of the worldGalatians 2:19 I through the law died to the law; (dead to the law)Colossians 3:3 For you died and your life is hidden with Christ in God (believers are dead) On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:53:25 -0600 "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:From: "Charles Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Bill,It appears in scripture that there is a
