[TruthTalk] Mormonism
DAVEH wrote: > I explained that we have always considered ourselves > (members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day > Saints) to be Christian. Our Church is even named after > him. Is yours??? The term "Mormon" was given to us by > our detractors, and it kinda stuck. We don't feel ashamed > of it as the anti-Mormon folks from the early days had hoped. > We still are Christians, as Jesus Christ is the focal point > of our religion. We believe in his miraculous birth, death > and resurrection. ... Mormons are Christians despite what > you may believe or think. Excellent debate point, Dave. The church of the Mormons is named after Christ, while the Wesleyans are named after a man. Nevertheless, surely you must consider that while you claim to be after Christ, your organization is inexplicably tied to Joseph Smith, much more so than Wesleyans are tied to John Wesley. Consider that a modern Wesleyan may readily repudiate much of what John Wesley taught. For example, a modern Wesleyan may readily reject infant baptism, yet infant baptism was ardently taught and commanded by John Wesley. On the other hand, a Mormon may not reject Joseph Smith. If I considered Joseph Smith to have misrepresented the Book of Abraham and that he falsely claimed to be able to translate it, could I still become a member of your church? If I reject the Book of Mormon as not being Scripture, can I become a member of your church? If I consider several prophecies of Joseph Smith as recorded in the Doctrine & Covenants to be false, can I be a good Mormon? Surely you must recognize that the answer to all these questions is no. This is the dissimulation that strikes many of us as repulsive. You claim to follow Jesus Christ, but in practice your religion is based in Joseph Smith. Lutherans, Wesleyans, and Calvinists might emphasize various teachings of the men who gave them foundation, but ultimately they will lay aside the teachings of these men to emphasize that which Jesus taught. Please do not misunderstand. I consider it carnality to use these labels of men, and something clearly condemned in 1 Cor. 3. Nevertheless, I recognize that in actual practice, they do not follow a man as closely as the Mormons follow Joseph Smith. Do you disagree? Stated another way, it seems clear to many of us that despite the name of your church, Joseph Smith is the cornerstone of your faith. Would you agree? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism
David Miller wrote: > DAVEH wrote: > > I explained that we have always considered ourselves > > (members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day > > Saints) to be Christian. Our Church is even named after > > him. Is yours??? The term "Mormon" was given to us by > > our detractors, and it kinda stuck. We don't feel ashamed > > of it as the anti-Mormon folks from the early days had hoped. > > We still are Christians, as Jesus Christ is the focal point > > of our religion. We believe in his miraculous birth, death > > and resurrection. ... Mormons are Christians despite what > > you may believe or think. > > Excellent debate point, Dave. The church of the Mormons is named after > Christ, while the Wesleyans are named after a man. Nevertheless, surely > you must consider that while you claim to be after Christ, your > organization is inexplicably DAVEH: "Inexplicably"...I don't think so! > tied to Joseph Smith, much more so than > Wesleyans are tied to John Wesley. DAVEH: We believe JS was a prophet of God despite his warts, much in the same way Moses was a prophet. I've never heard anybody claim that Wesley was a prophet, but rather merely a reformer. > Consider that a modern Wesleyan may readily repudiate much of what John > Wesley taught. For example, a modern Wesleyan may readily reject infant > baptism, yet infant baptism was ardently taught and commanded by John > Wesley. On the other hand, a Mormon may not reject Joseph Smith. DAVEH: Correct. It wouldn't make any more sense if they did, than if a Christian or Jew were to believe Moses was a false prophet. > If I > considered Joseph Smith to have misrepresented the Book of Abraham and > that he falsely claimed to be able to translate it, could I still become > a member of your church? If I reject the Book of Mormon as not being > Scripture, can I become a member of your church? If I consider several > prophecies of Joseph Smith as recorded in the Doctrine & Covenants to be > false, can I be a good Mormon? Surely you must recognize that the > answer to all these questions is no. DAVEH: Similarly, if one thought Moses misrepresented what he wrote in the Bible, it would be difficult to be a Christian, would it not? > This is the dissimulation that strikes many of us as repulsive. You > claim to follow Jesus Christ, but in practice your religion is based in > Joseph Smith. DAVEH: No, it is based on Jesus Christ. JS was merely a prophet who was an instrument in the Lord's hands in the restoration of the Church. The Bible is full of prophets who some accepted as doing the Lord's work, and others didn't. > Lutherans, Wesleyans, and Calvinists might emphasize > various teachings of the men who gave them foundation, but ultimately > they will lay aside the teachings of these men to emphasize that which > Jesus taught. DAVEH: Whether one accepts JS or not, I don't think he claimed to be saying anything other than what he claimed the Lord wanted him to reveal. For instance, baptism for the dead...some TTers (you, if I remember correctly) have assumed he came up with that from reading the Bible. I believe the Bible was not the reason we practice it today, but rather because JS received revelation from God commanding it. > Please do not misunderstand. I consider it carnality to > use these labels of men, and something clearly condemned in 1 Cor. 3. > Nevertheless, I recognize that in actual practice, they do not follow a > man as closely as the Mormons follow Joseph Smith. Do you disagree? DAVEH: Yes. However, you are comparing JS who claimed (and is believed) to be a prophet to guys who had no inclination to make that claim. I think it would be better if you were to compare him to Biblical prophets, such as Moses. Then your comparison might be more significant. > Stated another way, it seems clear to many of us that despite the name > of your church, Joseph Smith is the cornerstone of your faith. Would > you agree? DAVEH: No, I would not agree. Jesus is the cornerstone of our religion. JS was merely a tool in his hands. > Peace be with you. > David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. > -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism
Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: David Miller wrote:> DAVEH wrote:> > I explained that we have always considered ourselves> > (members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day> > Saints) to be Christian. Our Church is even named after> > him. Is yours??? The term "Mormon" was given to us by> > our detractors, and it kinda stuck. We don't feel ashamed> > of it as the anti-Mormon folks from the early days had hoped.> > We still are Christians, as Jesus Christ is the focal point> > of our religion. We believe in his miraculous birth, death> > and resurrection. ... Mormons are Christians despite what> > you may believe or think.>> Excellent debate point, Dave. The church of the Mormons is named after> Christ, while the Wesleyans are named after a man. Nevertheless, surely> you must consider that while you claim to be after Christ, your> organization is inexplicablyDAVEH: "Inexplicably"...I don't think so!> tied to Joseph Smith, much more so than> Wesleyans are tied to John Wesley.DAVEH: We believe JS was a prophet of God despite his warts, much in the same way Moses was a prophet. I've never heard anybody claim that Wesley was a prophet, but rather merely a reformer.> Consider that a modern Wesleyan may readily repudiate much of what John> Wesley taught. For example, a modern Wesleyan may readily reject infant> baptism, yet infant baptism was ardently taught and commanded by John> Wesley. On the other hand, a Mormon may not reject Joseph Smith.DAVEH: Correct. It wouldn't make any more sense if they did, than if a Christian or Jew were to believe Moses was a false prophet. Michael D: Gentlemen, permit me to point out to Hansen, that although Moses is undisputably a true prophet, JS has been time and again proven to be a false prophet here on TT. Of course the LDSers cannot afford to countenance such an assertion, so they tend to offer many spurious arguments to explain away the obvious errors of JS's ways.> If I> considered Joseph Smith to have misrepresented the Book of Abraham and> that he falsely claimed to be able to translate it, could I still become> a member of your church? If I reject the Book of Mormon as not being> Scripture, can I become a member of your church? If I consider several> prophecies of Joseph Smith as recorded in the Doctrine & Covenants to be> false, can I be a good Mormon? Surely you must recognize that the> answer to all these questions is no.DAVEH: Similarly, if one thought Moses misrepresented what he wrote in the Bible, it would be difficult to be a Christian, would it not?> This is the dissimulation that strikes many of us as repulsive. You> claim to follow Jesus Christ, but in practice your religion is based in> Joseph Smith.DAVEH: No, it is based on Jesus Christ. JS was merely a prophet who was an instrument in the Lord's hands in the restoration of the Church. The Bible is full of prophets who some accepted as doing the Lord's work, and others didn't.> Lutherans, Wesleyans, and Calvinists might emphasize> various teachings of the men who gave them foundation, but ultimately> they will lay aside the teachings of these men to emphasize that which> Jesus taught.DAVEH: Whether one accepts JS or not, I don't think he claimed to be saying anything other than what he claimed the Lord wanted him to reveal. For instance, baptism for the dead...some TTers (you, if I remember correctly) have assumed he came upwith that from reading the Bible. I believe the Bible was not the reason we practice it today, but rather because JS received revelation from God commanding it.> Please do not misunderstand. I consider it carnality to> use these labels of men, and something clearly condemned in 1 Cor. 3.> Nevertheless, I recognize that in actual practice, they do not follow a> man as closely as the Mormons follow Joseph Smith. Do you disagree?DAVEH: Yes. However, you are comparing JS who claimed (and is believed) to be a prophet to guys who had no inclination to make that claim. I think it would be better if you were to compare him to Biblical prophets, such as Moses. Then your comparison might be more significant. Michael D: I do hope David takes up this challenge, because there is really no comparison whatsoever.> Stated another way, it seems clear to many of us that despite the name> of your church, Joseph Smith is the cornerstone of your faith. Would> you agree?DAVEH: No, I would not agree. Jesus is the cornerstone of our religion. JS was merely a tool in his hands. Michael D: To the discerning eye, Dave H., neither of those comes close to being the truth.--~~~Dave Hansen[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.langlitz.com~~~If you wish to receivethings I find interesting,I maintain Five email lists...JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man.." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email
RE: [TruthTalk] Mormonism
DAVEH wrote: > "Inexplicably"...I don't think so! LOL! inexTRicably is what I meant. :-) But maybe that was a subconscious typo because it also appears the Mormon tie to Joseph Smith also appears to be inexplicable. :-) David Miller wrote: >> If I considered Joseph Smith to have misrepresented the >> Book of Abraham and that he falsely claimed to be able >> to translate it, could I still become a member of your >> church? If I reject the Book of Mormon as not being >> Scripture, can I become a member of your church? If >> I consider several prophecies of Joseph Smith as recorded >> in the Doctrine & Covenants to be false, can I be a good >> Mormon? Surely you must recognize that the answer to all >> these questions is no. DAVEH wrote: > you are comparing JS who claimed (and is believed) to be > a prophet to guys who had no inclination to make that claim. > I think it would be better if you were to compare him to > Biblical prophets, such as Moses. Then your comparison > might be more significant. Ok, fair enough, but the point still remains that Mormons hold more tightly to their faith in Joseph Smith than Wesleyans hold to faith in John Wesley, despite the names by which you call yourselves. DAVEH wrote: > No, I would not agree. Jesus is the cornerstone > of our religion. JS was merely a tool in his hands. What did Jesus Christ bring to the world? He brought salvation through the sacrifice of himself, a teaching of repentance and love for our fellow man, and he left the legacy of a kingdom and spiritual temples made without hands, with the promise of returning to receive us unto himself. What did Joseph Smith bring to the world? He brought bloodshed and strife, a teaching that he was the true prophet and restorer while the rest of Christianity was apostate, he sought to establish religious communities and to add new Scripture, he brought a failed attempt to restore the American Indian Jews to the church, he brought rampant polygamy, and left us a promise that he and his church would be exalted while his wife would be rejected and destroyed because of her rejection of his secret polygamy. He also left us the legacy of an earthly priesthood, which he calls heavenly, but is really earthly, and he led his followers to look back to earthly temples rather than seeing the assembly of believers as the temple of God. I grant you that modern Mormonism has departed some from the Joseph Smith path in many ways. Modern Mormonism has rejected the path of bloodshed and strife that originally characterized Mormonism, and they have not been so prone to condemn the rest of Christianity as apostate. Modern Mormons have given up on the foolish notion that American Indians are Jews ready to be restored to their original heritage and covenant with God, and they have rejected polygamy and rejected the earlier racism that excluded blacks from ministry. About all they have retained are the restored priesthoods and building programs and empire building which all the other denominations engage in anyways. If Joseph Smith were alive today and held the same position in Christianity that he held when he was here before (a nobody), doubtless he would have condemned Mormonism along with the rest of Christianity as being apostate. So, why is it that you are Mormon? :-) Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism
On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 13:56:01 -0500 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes to DaveH:<<..the point still remains that Mormons hold more tightly to their faith in Joseph Smith than Wesleyans hold to faith in John Wesley..>> then both 'religions' are status quo ; neither has a clue about entering the kingdom of God yo Marlin--aren't these Daves trafficking in the sorta (false) 'Christianity' what you've been talkin' about? gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism
DAVEH: My latest post is in BLUE michael douglas wrote: DAVEH: We believe JS was a prophet of God despite his warts, much in the same way Moses was a prophet. I've never heard anybody claim that Wesley was a prophet, but rather merely a reformer. > Consider that a modern Wesleyan may readily repudiate much of what John > Wesley taught. For example, a modern Wesleyan may readily reject infant > baptism, yet infant baptism was ardently taught and commanded by John > Wesley. On the other hand, a Mormon may not reject Joseph Smith. DAVEH: Correct. It wouldn't make any more sense if they did, than if a Christian or Jew were to believe Moses was a false prophet. Michael D: Gentlemen, permit me to point out to Hansen, that although Moses is undisputably a true prophet, JS has been time and again proven to be a false prophet here on TT. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree, Michael. Of course the LDSers cannot afford to countenance such an assertion, so they tend to offer many spurious arguments to explain away the obvious errors of JS's ways. > Stated another way, it seems clear to many of us that despite the name > of your church, Joseph Smith is the cornerstone of your faith. Would > you agree? DAVEH: No, I would not agree. Jesus is the cornerstone of our religion. JS was merely a tool in his hands. Michael D: To the discerning eye, Dave H., neither of those comes close to being the truth. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree with your opinion, Michael. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism
David Miller wrote: > DAVEH wrote: > > "Inexplicably"...I don't think so! > > LOL! inexTRicably is what I meant. :-) DAVEH: ROTFLOL...Now I'm going to have to chase down a dictionary to find out what subtle barbs you've tossed my way! > But maybe that was a > subconscious typo because it also appears the Mormon tie to Joseph Smith > also appears to be inexplicable. :-) DAVEH: HmmNot only do I think I can explain it, but I thought I had previously done so! > David Miller wrote: > >> If I considered Joseph Smith to have misrepresented the > >> Book of Abraham and that he falsely claimed to be able > >> to translate it, could I still become a member of your > >> church? If I reject the Book of Mormon as not being > >> Scripture, can I become a member of your church? If > >> I consider several prophecies of Joseph Smith as recorded > >> in the Doctrine & Covenants to be false, can I be a good > >> Mormon? Surely you must recognize that the answer to all > >> these questions is no. > > DAVEH wrote: > > you are comparing JS who claimed (and is believed) to be > > a prophet to guys who had no inclination to make that claim. > > I think it would be better if you were to compare him to > > Biblical prophets, such as Moses. Then your comparison > > might be more significant. > > Ok, fair enough, but the point still remains that Mormons hold more > tightly to their faith in Joseph Smith than Wesleyans hold to faith in > John Wesley, DAVEH: DUHHH!!! No offense, DavidM..but most LDS folks revere JS as the Jews revered Moses. What's unusual about that?!?!?!?! > despite the names by which you call yourselves. > > DAVEH wrote: > > No, I would not agree. Jesus is the cornerstone > > of our religion. JS was merely a tool in his hands. > > What did Jesus Christ bring to the world? He brought salvation through > the sacrifice of himself, a teaching of repentance and love for our > fellow man, and he left the legacy of a kingdom and spiritual temples > made without hands, with the promise of returning to receive us unto > himself. > > What did Joseph Smith bring to the world? He brought bloodshed and > strife, DAVEH: As I've explained before, JS was not in the same league as our Savior. So, why do you feel the need to compare him to our Lord? Instead, why don't you compare him to some of the prophets of the Bible? Did any of them bloody their hands? > a teaching that he was the true prophet and restorer while the > rest of Christianity was apostate, he sought to establish religious > communities and to add new Scripture, DAVEH: Have not Bible prophets done similar? > he brought a failed attempt to > restore the American Indian Jews to the church, DAVEH: ??? > he brought rampant > polygamy, DAVEH: How many wives did the prophet Solomon have? (Answer: At least 700) Whose polygamous lifestyle was the more rampant??? Hm..now that I think about it, didn't Solomon "add new Scripture"? > and left us a promise that he and his church would be exalted > while his wife would be rejected and destroyed because of her rejection > of his secret polygamy. He also left us the legacy of an earthly > priesthood, which he calls heavenly, but is really earthly, DAVEH: I respectfully disagree, but that is meat for another thread. > and he led > his followers to look back to earthly temples rather than seeing the > assembly of believers as the temple of God. DAVEH: Do you not believe the Lord sanctions earthly temples? > I grant you that modern Mormonism has departed some from the Joseph > Smith path in many ways. Modern Mormonism has rejected the path of > bloodshed and strife that originally characterized DAVEH: I think "pursued" would have been more appropriate. > Mormonism, and they > have not been so prone to condemn the rest of Christianity as apostate. DAVEH: IF JS was a true prophet, that condemnation came from the Lord. From a historical standpoint, there is a lot of logical validity to that argument. And from a theological standpoint, it was predicted by the Bible. > Modern Mormons have given up on the foolish notion that American Indians > are Jews ready to be restored to their original heritage and covenant > with God, DAVEH: I don't recall having prior discussions regarding this, DavidM...So I'm not quite sure how to comment, as I'm not sure what you are getting at. > and they have rejected polygamy and rejected the earlier > racism that excluded blacks from ministry. DAVEH: Your usage of "rejected" gives it a context that is foreign to our way of thinking of it. When the Lord asks you to change your course in his behalf, do you consider it a "rejection" of your previous efforts? As a hypothetical example, if you as a street preacher receives a revelation to give up street preaching and to begin preaching to a congregation in a bricks and mortar building, would you consider that a rejection of your previous
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism
Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: DAVEH: My latest post is in BLUE michael douglas wrote: DAVEH: We believe JS was a prophet of God despite his warts, much in the same way Moses was a prophet. I've never heard anybody claim that Wesley was a prophet, but rather merely a reformer. > Consider that a modern Wesleyan may readily repudiate much of what John > Wesley taught. For example, a modern Wesleyan may readily reject infant > baptism, yet infant baptism was ardently taught and commanded by John > Wesley. On the other hand, a Mormon may not reject Joseph Smith. DAVEH: Correct. It wouldn't make any more sense if they did, than if a Christian or Jew were to believe Moses was a false prophet. Michael D: Gentlemen, permit me to point out to Hansen, that although Moses is undisputably a true prophet, JS has been time and again proven to be a false prophet here on TT. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree, Michael. Michael D: As I expected that you would (respectfully and all), but as I recall, JS was shown to be the one who prophesied that his wife would die, but he instead died after declaring such, while she lived on. Now, that speaks volumes for anyone to see, not so ??? Of course the LDSers cannot afford to countenance such an assertion, so they tend to offer many spurious arguments to explain away the obvious errors of JS's ways. > Stated another way, it seems clear to many of us that despite the name > of your church, Joseph Smith is the cornerstone of your faith. Would > you agree? DAVEH: No, I would not agree. Jesus is the cornerstone of our religion. JS was merely a tool in his hands. Michael D: To the discerning eye, Dave H., neither of those comes close to being the truth.DAVEH: I respectfully disagree with your opinion, Michael. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. Download Yahoo! Messenger now for a chance to WIN Robbie Williams "Live At Knebworth DVD"
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism
DAVEH: My latest post is in GREEN... michael douglas wrote: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: michael douglas wrote: DAVEH: We believe JS was a prophet of God despite his warts, much in the same way Moses was a prophet. I've never heard anybody claim that Wesley was a prophet, but rather merely a reformer. > Consider that a modern Wesleyan may readily repudiate much of what John > Wesley taught. For example, a modern Wesleyan may readily reject infant > baptism, yet infant baptism was ardently taught and commanded by John > Wesley. On the other hand, a Mormon may not reject Joseph Smith. DAVEH: Correct. It wouldn't make any more sense if they did, than if a Christian or Jew were to believe Moses was a false prophet. Michael D: Gentlemen, permit me to point out to Hansen, that although Moses is undisputably a true prophet, JS has been time and again proven to be a false prophet here on TT. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree, Michael. Michael D: As I expected that you would (respectfully and all), but as I recall, JS was shown to be the one who prophesied that his wife would die, but he instead died after declaring such, while she lived on. Now, that speaks volumes for anyone to see, DAVEH: I don't know about that, Michael. Let's see what he said and then compare it to what happenedPlease quote the prophesy. not so ??? Of course the LDSers cannot afford to countenance such an assertion, so they tend to offer many spurious arguments to explain away the obvious errors of JS's ways. > Stated another way, it seems clear to many of us that despite the name > of your church, Joseph Smith is the cornerstone of your faith. Would > you agree? DAVEH: No, I would not agree. Jesus is the cornerstone of our religion. JS was merely a tool in his hands. Michael D: To the discerning eye, Dave H., neither of those comes close to being the truth. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree with your opinion, Michael. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE. Download Yahoo! Messenger now for a chance to WIN Robbie Williams "Live At Knebworth DVD" -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
[TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
..are one and the same 'spirit'. The 'degrees' in Mormonism correspond to the 'degrees' in freemasonry. DANGEROUS STUFF!
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
In a message dated 12/26/2005 5:14:52 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..are one and the same 'spirit'. The 'degrees' in Mormonism correspond to the 'degrees' in freemasonry. DANGEROUS STUFF! There is no provable relationship. If there was, you would do more than make a blanket statement. Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Does the Mormon Church have an expressed opinion regarding freemasonary? jd -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 12/26/2005 5:14:52 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..are one and the same 'spirit'. The 'degrees' in Mormonism correspond to the 'degrees' in freemasonry. DANGEROUS STUFF! There is no provable relationship. If there was, you would do more than make a blanket statement. Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Blaine, I beg to differ. I have read two books, side by side, one of the Mormon temple endowment, and one of Freemasonry, and the similarities are unmistakable, from the the clothing and anointing to the secret grips, tokens, and penalties. Add to this the fact that JS was himself a mason of at least the 32nd degree, and it is quite obvious that JS adopted and adapted the Freemason ceremonies for his own use in the LDS temple endowments. Lets add to this some new information...the Freemasons, in their ceremonies, pay homage to several Egyptian gods. Now, you have told us that JS writes in the PoGP that one of hte names of god is Amun, or Ammon, an Egyptian god. See the siilarity. I am anxious to research if JS got that name fromt he pages fromt eh book of the dead he purchased and pretended to translate as the Book of Abraham, or if he learned it in his Masonic lodge. A little research shows that "[Albert] Pike [freemason and author] notes that the god Jupiter Ammon's picture was painted with the sign of the Ram or Lamb (Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma, p. 407). He mentions that Jupiter Ammon is "the same as Osiris, Adoni, Adonis, Atys, and the other Sun Gods . . ." (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/masonry.htm) Let's recall that JS carried a Jupiter talisman, found on him after his death, and that you said Ammon [ the same as Osiris, et al] is a name for the mormon god, according to the PoGP. Now we see a very STRONG tie between Ftremasonry and Mormonism...and a spiritual tie at that! Also, you resonded to the post below, regarding the similarities of the two, "There is no provable relationship." I find it interesting that you would choose this wording. This wording implies that you are not sure, and that if there is, you do not think it can be proven. That is a far cry from believing that there is no relationship! And I recall, also, that you are an amateur astrologer and have even cast the mormon jesus' horoscope (according to a previous post of yours). You're dabbling in occult sciences, Blaine, and thus are a true follower of JS. Like father, like son. Perry From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 23:01:19 EST In a message dated 12/26/2005 5:14:52 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..are one and the same 'spirit'. The 'degrees' in Mormonism correspond to the 'degrees' in freemasonry. DANGEROUS STUFF! There is no provable relationship. If there was, you would do more than make a blanket statement. Blainerb -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
In a message dated 12/26/2005 11:52:23 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Add to this the fact that JS was himself a mason of at least the 32nd degree, Blainerb: I assure you there are not anywhere near 32 degrees in Mormon temple ceremonies. There are NO degrees in the ceremonies. :>) There are three degrees of glory in the resurrection, in LDS theology, could this be what Lance was referring to? >In a message dated 12/26/2005 5:14:52 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:>>..are one and the same 'spirit'. The 'degrees' in Mormonism correspond to>the 'degrees' in freemasonry. DANGEROUS STUFF!There is no provable relationship. If there was, you would do more than>make a blanket statement.>Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
I am not aware of one, except to say, as JS did, that he joined the Freemasons to obtain whatever friendship and support they might offer in times of duress--as you are probably aware, he was arrested on false charges many times--0ver 40 times, as I recall--and abused both physically and verbally a lot of times by antis of his day. But I am sure if there is any official commentary from Church authorities, Kevin would know where it would be found. Especially if it could be used against the Church. :>) Blainerb In a message dated 12/26/2005 10:08:36 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does the Mormon Church have an expressed opinion regarding freemasonary? jd -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 12/26/2005 5:14:52 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..are one and the same 'spirit'. The 'degrees' in Mormonism correspond to the 'degrees' in freemasonry. DANGEROUS STUFF! There is no provable relationship. If there was, you would do more than make a blanket statement. Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
In a message dated 12/26/2005 11:52:23 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine, I beg to differ. I have read two books, side by side, one of the Mormon temple endowment, and one of Freemasonry, and the similarities are unmistakable, from the the clothing and anointing to the secret grips, tokens, and penalties. Add to this the fact that JS was himself a mason of at least the 32nd degree, and it is quite obvious that JS adopted and adapted the Freemason ceremonies for his own use in the LDS temple endowments. Blainerb: I don't think the LDS Church has ever denied what you are saying, so it seems unnecessary to even point it out. The similarities are just that, however, and there are other aspects of the LDS ceremonies that are highly dissimilar. Your conclusions that JS just went in and adapted/borrowed stuff seems a little rash, it seems to me. A charitable attitude towards JS and Mormons in general would suggest to me that his claims to have received the temple ceremonies by revelation should be given first priority. As in all dreams and other revelations, the Lord often makes use of symbols and etc familiar to the recipient-- I see nothing amiss in this happening with regards to JS's revelations, whether regarding temple ceremonies or otherwise. The Key word here is CHARITY.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
In a message dated 12/26/2005 11:52:23 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Lets add to this some new information...the Freemasons, in their ceremonies, pay homage to several Egyptian gods. Now, you have told us that JS writes in the PoGP that one of hte names of god is Amun, or Ammon, an Egyptian god. See the siilarity. I am anxious to research if JS got that name fromt he pages fromt eh book of the dead he purchased and pretended to translate as the Book of Abraham, or if he learned it in his Masonic lodge. Blainerb: I simply stated that some words from the language of Adam had been revealed to Joseph Smith, among them the word Ahman, for God the Father. In pointing out the similarities between that word and some Egyptian names for deity, I was suggesting that perhaps the Egyptians had through time corrupted the concept of God, but had retained the name to some extent. It is a well known fact that languages change, but still retain words or similar words to the original. An example is the Algonquin Indian word for father--Abba. The same word in Hebrew has the same meaning. I am not an expert on languages, but it seems pretty clear there had to be a linguistic/cultural sameness at some point in time. Again, CHARITY might help you reach different conclusions from the ones you draw.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
I have read the same Blaine and the Freemasonry rituals are based on the old Fertility Cult mystery religions which is the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations exiled from the Promised Land and destroyed. There is a sexual aspect to both. jt On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:06:14 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am not aware of one, except to say, as JS did, that he joined the Freemasons to obtain whatever friendship and support they might offer in times of duress--as you are probably aware, he was arrested on false charges many times--0ver 40 times, as I recall--and abused both physically and verbally a lot of times by antis of his day. But I am sure if there is any official commentary from Church authorities, Kevin would know where it would be found. Especially if it could be used against the Church. :>) Blainerb In a message dated 12/26/2005 10:08:36 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does the Mormon Church have an expressed opinion regarding freemasonary? jd From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 12/26/2005 5:14:52 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..are one and the same 'spirit'. The 'degrees' in Mormonism correspond to the 'degrees' in freemasonry. DANGEROUS STUFF! There is no provable relationship. If there was, you would do more than make a blanket statement. Blainerb judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Blainerb: Freemasonry is obviously descended from the time when the Jews returned from the Babylonian captivity to Jerusalem to rebuild their temple and the walls of the city. It is one thing to say such as you have stated below, but quite another to show beyond reasonable doubt that your assertions are correct. If you wouldn't mind, I would like to double-check your sources. In a message dated 12/27/2005 8:04:59 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have read the same Blaine and the Freemasonry rituals are based on the old Fertility Cult mystery religions which is the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations exiled from the Promised Land and destroyed. There is a sexual aspect to both. jt On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:06:14 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am not aware of one, except to say, as JS did, that he joined the Freemasons to obtain whatever friendship and support they might offer in times of duress--as you are probably aware, he was arrested on false charges many times--0ver 40 times, as I recall--and abused both physically and verbally a lot of times by antis of his day. But I am sure if there is any official commentary from Church authorities, Kevin would know where it would be found. Especially if it could be used against the Church. :>) Blainerb In a message dated 12/26/2005 10:08:36 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does the Mormon Church have an expressed opinion regarding freemasonary?
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
rituals are based on the old Fertility Cult mystery religions which is the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations exiled from the Promised Land and destroyed. DAVEH: Could not the same argument be made about Christmas and Easter, Judy? http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p235.html http://www.outsidethecamp.org/dyk14.htm http://www.benbest.com/history/xmas.html It seems to me that if you want to criticize Mormonism in such a manner, you should probably want to review modern Christianity in the same light. Judy Taylor wrote: I have read the same Blaine and the Freemasonry rituals are based on the old Fertility Cult mystery religions which is the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations exiled from the Promised Land and destroyed. There is a sexual aspect to both. jt -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
On covering one blanket with another, Blaine?? You were asked. I ask again. WHAT IS THE MORMON CHURCH'S POSITION ON FREEMASONRY? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: December 26, 2005 23:01 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry In a message dated 12/26/2005 5:14:52 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..are one and the same 'spirit'. The 'degrees' in Mormonism correspond to the 'degrees' in freemasonry. DANGEROUS STUFF! There is no provable relationship. If there was, you would do more than make a blanket statement. Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Probably; Constantine supposedly christianized pagan festivals for these two celebrations and now they have become westernized traditions. On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:02:09 -0800 Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: rituals are based on the old Fertility Cult mystery religions which is the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations exiled from the Promised Land and destroyed.DAVEH: Could not the same argument be made about Christmas and Easter, Judy?http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p235.htmlhttp://www.outsidethecamp.org/dyk14.htmhttp://www.benbest.com/history/xmas.htmlIt seems to me that if you want to criticize Mormonism in such a manner, you should probably want to review modern Christianity in the same light.Judy Taylor wrote: I have read the same Blaine and the Freemasonry rituals are based on the old Fertility Cult mystery religions which is the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations exiled from the Promised Land and destroyed. There is a sexual aspect to both. jt -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
No it is way before that; the ancient fertility cults were practised in Canaan before God destroyed the Amorites. On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:01:12 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blainerb: Freemasonry is obviously descended from the time when the Jews returned from the Babylonian captivity to Jerusalem to rebuild their temple and the walls of the city. It is one thing to say such as you have stated below, but quite another to show beyond reasonable doubt that your assertions are correct. If you wouldn't mind, I would like to double-check your sources. In a message dated 12/27/2005 8:04:59 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have read the same Blaine and the Freemasonry rituals are based on the old Fertility Cult mystery religions which is the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations exiled from the Promised Land and destroyed. There is a sexual aspect to both. jt On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:06:14 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am not aware of one, except to say, as JS did, that he joined the Freemasons to obtain whatever friendship and support they might offer in times of duress--as you are probably aware, he was arrested on false charges many times--0ver 40 times, as I recall--and abused both physically and verbally a lot of times by antis of his day. But I am sure if there is any official commentary from Church authorities, Kevin would know where it would be found. Especially if it could be used against the Church. :>) Blainerb In a message dated 12/26/2005 10:08:36 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does the Mormon Church have an expressed opinion regarding freemasonary? judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Actually, it is supposed to have started with the tower of Babel, and the master builders who were to construct it. Terry Judy Taylor wrote: No it is way before that; the ancient fertility cults were practised in Canaan before God destroyed the Amorites. On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:01:12 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blainerb: Freemasonry is obviously descended from the time when the Jews returned from the Babylonian captivity to Jerusalem to rebuild their temple and the walls of the city. It is one thing to say such as you have stated below, but quite another to show beyond reasonable doubt that your assertions are correct. If you wouldn't mind, I would like to double-check your sources. In a message dated 12/27/2005 8:04:59 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have read the same Blaine and the Freemasonry rituals are based on the old Fertility Cult mystery religions which is the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations exiled from the Promised Land and destroyed. There is a sexual aspect to both. jt On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:06:14 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am not aware of one, except to say, as JS did, that he joined the Freemasons to obtain whatever friendship and support they might offer in times of duress--as you are probably aware, he was arrested on false charges many times--0ver 40 times, as I recall--and abused both physically and verbally a lot of times by antis of his day. But I am sure if there is any official commentary from Church authorities, Kevin would know where it would be found. Especially if it could be used against the Church. :>) Blainerb In a message dated 12/26/2005 10:08:36 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does the Mormon Church have an expressed opinion regarding freemasonary? judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
DAVEH: Thank you for your honest response, Judy. Judy Taylor wrote: Probably; Constantine supposedly christianized pagan festivals for these two celebrations and now they have become westernized traditions. On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:02:09 -0800 Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: rituals are based on the old Fertility Cult mystery religions which is the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations exiled from the Promised Land and destroyed. DAVEH: Could not the same argument be made about Christmas and Easter, Judy? http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p235.html http://www.outsidethecamp.org/dyk14.htm http://www.benbest.com/history/xmas.html It seems to me that if you want to criticize Mormonism in such a manner, you should probably want to review modern Christianity in the same light. Judy Taylor wrote: I have read the same Blaine and the Freemasonry rituals are based on the old Fertility Cult mystery religions which is the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations exiled from the Promised Land and destroyed. There is a sexual aspect to both. jt
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Blainerb: "Supposed to have?" Judging from the "plethora" of records about the Tower of Babel, and what went on then, can you even say "supposed" with any degree of assurance? :>) I mean, let's face it, what we have on the Tower of Babel, is vry scant, indeed. The BoM gives a fairly detailed record of one group leaving the Tower . . . called the Book of Ether. But I have not read anything else that I would place much confidence in--perhaps you are aware of some very ancient documents In a message dated 12/31/2005 5:17:31 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually, it is supposed to have started with the tower of Babel, and the master builders who were to construct it.TerryJudy Taylor wrote: No it is way before that; the ancient fertility cults were practised in Canaan before God destroyed the Amorites. On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:01:12 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blainerb: Freemasonry is obviously descended from the time when the Jews returned from the Babylonian captivity to Jerusalem to rebuild their temple and the walls of the city. It is one thing to say such as you have stated below, but quite another to show beyond reasonable doubt that your assertions are correct. If you wouldn't mind, I would like to double-check your sources. In a message dated 12/27/2005 8:04:59 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have read the same Blaine and the Freemasonry rituals are based on the old Fertility Cult mystery religions which is the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations exiled from the Promised Land and destroyed. There is a sexual aspect to both. jt On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:06:14 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am not aware of one, except to say, as JS did, that he joined the Freemasons to obtain whatever friendship and support they might offer in times of duress--as you are probably aware, he was arrested on false charges many times--0ver 40 times, as I recall--and abused both physically and verbally a lot of times by antis of his day. But I am sure if there is any official commentary from Church authorities, Kevin would know where it would be found. Especially if it could be used against the Church. :>) Blainerb In a message dated 12/26/2005 10:08:36 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does the Mormon Church have an expressed opinion regarding freemasonary? judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
No doubt about it, those ancient groups were doing bad stuff, fertility cultism included. But what I am saying is documenting something from ancient times is always hard, and I seriously doubt tracing Freemasonry back to those times could be done with so much confidence in the findings as to be able to say confidently that such and such is true, or such and such is not true. In fact, that would be true of almost anything. Even Mormonism, which is barely two hundred years old, despite an abundance of records on the subject, still has much that cannot be said for certain about it. What it boils down to in too many cases is that basically, we express our opinions, pro and con, and that's about the best we can do. But I can say with a high degree of confidence, that although there are some similarities between free Masonry and the temple Endowment ceremony, there are far too many fundamental differences to conclude that one came from the other. I have, believe it or not, studied Free Masonry, and I am intimately familiar with the ceremony in the temple. There are just too many other possibilities. In a message dated 12/31/2005 4:00:12 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No it is way before that; the ancient fertility cults were practised in Canaan before God destroyed the Amorites. On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:01:12 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blainerb: Freemasonry is obviously descended from the time when the Jews returned from the Babylonian captivity to Jerusalem to rebuild their temple and the walls of the city. It is one thing to say such as you have stated below, but quite another to show beyond reasonable doubt that your assertions are correct. If you wouldn't mind, I would like to double-check your sources. In a message dated 12/27/2005 8:04:59 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have read the same Blaine and the Freemasonry rituals are based on the old Fertility Cult mystery religions which is the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations exiled from the Promised Land and destroyed. There is a sexual aspect to both. jt On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:06:14 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am not aware of one, except to say, as JS did, that he joined the Freemasons to obtain whatever friendship and support they might offer in times of duress--as you are probably aware, he was arrested on false charges many times--0ver 40 times, as I recall--and abused both physically and verbally a lot of times by antis of his day. But I am sure if there is any official commentary from Church authorities, Kevin would know where it would be found. Especially if it could be used against the Church. :>) Blainerb In a message dated 12/26/2005 10:08:36 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does the Mormon Church have an expressed opinion regarding freemasonary?
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Blaine, do you consider protestants to be pagans? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 23:06:52 EST No doubt about it, those ancient groups were doing bad stuff, fertility cultism included. But what I am saying is documenting something from ancient times is always hard, and I seriously doubt tracing Freemasonry back to those times could be done with so much confidence in the findings as to be able to say confidently that such and such is true, or such and such is not true. In fact, that would be true of almost anything. Even Mormonism, which is barely two hundred years old, despite an abundance of records on the subject, still has much that cannot be said for certain about it. What it boils down to in too many cases is that basically, we express our opinions, pro and con, and that's about the best we can do. But I can say with a high degree of confidence, that although there are some similarities between free Masonry and the temple Endowment ceremony, there are far too many fundamental differences to conclude that one came from the other. I have, believe it or not, studied Free Masonry, and I am intimately familiar with the ceremony in the temple. There are just too many other possibilities. In a message dated 12/31/2005 4:00:12 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No it is way before that; the ancient fertility cults were practised in Canaan before God destroyed the Amorites. On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:01:12 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: Blainerb: Freemasonry is obviously descended from the time when the Jews returned from the Babylonian captivity to Jerusalem to rebuild their temple and the walls of the city. It is one thing to say such as you have stated below, but quite another to show beyond reasonable doubt that your assertions are correct. If you wouldn't mind, I would like to double-check your sources. In a message dated 12/27/2005 8:04:59 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have read the same Blaine and the Freemasonry rituals are based on the old Fertility Cult mystery religions which is the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations exiled from the Promised Land and destroyed. There is a sexual aspect to both. jt On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:06:14 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes: I am not aware of one, except to say, as JS did, that he joined the Freemasons to obtain whatever friendship and support they might offer in times of duress--as you are probably aware, he was arrested on false charges many times--0ver 40 times, as I recall--and abused both physically and verbally a lot of times by antis of his day. But I am sure if there is any official commentary from Church authorities, Kevin would know where it would be found. Especially if it could be used against the Church. :>) Blainerb In a message dated 12/26/2005 10:08:36 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does the Mormon Church have an expressed opinion regarding freemasonary? -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
In a message dated 1/3/2006 9:51:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine, do you consider protestants to be pagans? Blainerb: No, I consider Protestants to be the Gentiles spoken of in the BoM who had the Bible, which was God's word, and upon whom the Spirit of God rested because they were righteous and sought to serve Jesus Christ as their Lord. They were given great power over the unrighteous seed of Jacob living in the Americas to the extent of scattering them, and decimating their populations. I consider the Protestant movement to have been of God, as it furnished a prelude to the restoration of the full gospel through the Prophet Joseph Smith and others. Unfortunately, most present-day Protestants have rejected the greater revelation, and are presently under condemnation. The time will come when those Gentiles who reject this latter-day message will be judged of God, however, and the power of the remnant of Jacob will be unleashed upon them. The BoM predicts that, "My people who are a remnant of Jacob (Lamanites, mostly) shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off. Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles, except they repent. . . . And I will execute judgement and fury upon them, even as upon the Heathen, such as they have not heard." 3 Nephi 21: 12-22 In a message dated 1/3/2006 9:51:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine, do you consider protestants to be pagans?>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry>Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 23:06:52 EST>>>No doubt about it, those ancient groups were doing bad stuff, fertility>cultism included. But what I am saying is documenting something from >ancient>times is always hard, and I seriously doubt tracing Freemasonry back to >those>times could be done with so much confidence in the findings as to be able >to>say confidently that such and such is true, or such and such is not true. >In>fact, that would be true of almost anything. Even Mormonism, which is >barely>two hundred years old, despite an abundance of records on the subject, >still>has much that cannot be said for certain about it. What it boils down to >in>too many cases is that basically, we express our opinions, pro and con, >and>that's about the best we can do.>But I can say with a high degree of confidence, that although there are >some>similarities between free Masonry and the temple Endowment ceremony, there>are far too many fundamental differences to conclude that one came from >the>other. I have, believe it or not, studied Free Masonry, and I am >intimately>familiar with the ceremony in the temple. There are just too many other>possibilities.>>In a message dated 12/31/2005 4:00:12 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:>>No it is way before that; the ancient fertility cults were practised in>Canaan before God destroyed the Amorites.>>On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 11:01:12 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED]>(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes:>>>Blainerb: Freemasonry is obviously descended from the time when the Jews>returned from the Babylonian captivity to Jerusalem to rebuild their >temple and>the walls of the city. It is one thing to say such as you have stated>below, but quite another to show beyond reasonable doubt that your >assertions are>correct. If you wouldn't mind, I would like to double-check your sources.>>>In a message dated 12/27/2005 8:04:59 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:>>I have read the same Blaine and the Freemasonry rituals are based on the >old>Fertility Cult mystery religions which is>the same kind of paganism that got the Canaanite Nations exiled from the>Promised Land and destroyed. There is a>sexual aspect to both. jt>>On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 09:06:14 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED]>(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) writes:>>>I am not aware of one, except to say, as JS did, that he joined the>Freemasons to obtain whatever friendship and support they might offer in >times of>duress--as you are probably aware, he was arrested on false charges many>times--0ver 40 times, as I recall--and abused both physically and verbally >a lot>of times by antis of his day.>But I am sure if there is any official commentary from Chur
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
..partic while becomg known for rejecting papal 'greater revelation' On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:15:39 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
..whose 'revelation' is 'greater'--Pope Julius or JSs? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:23:15 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..partic while becomg known for rejecting papal 'greater revelation' On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:15:39 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
..how about Leo or JP2's--can you see Protestants rejectg their authority inc the authority of their 'greater revelation' but acceptg someone else's relatively innocuous commentary? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:34:04 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..whose 'revelation' is 'greater'--Pope Julius or JSs? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:23:15 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..partic while becomg known for rejecting papal 'greater revelation' On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:15:39 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
..among corrupt authority/s rejected by Protestants one may include Hitler's, too--Nazis were not Protestants even though many Protestants became Nazi/s--a brute fact which relates directly to (true, both contemporary & historic,) Protestants consistently rejecting 'greater revelation' On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:45:49 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..how about Leo or JP2's--can you see Protestants rejectg their authority inc the authority of their 'greater revelation' but acceptg someone else's relatively innocuous commentary? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:34:04 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..whose 'revelation' is 'greater'--Pope Julius or JSs? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:23:15 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..partic while becomg known for rejecting papal 'greater revelation' On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:15:39 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, || -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
..what if, perhaps. elemental to BTs commentary, there genuinely appears to be a qualitatively greater revelation than your 'greater revelation'? On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
G, let me know when you get my check for the bat. That's right, Dean !! I'm buying a bat !! jd -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ..what if, perhaps. elemental to BTs commentary, there genuinely appears to be a qualitatively greater revelation than your 'greater revelation'? On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
- Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/6/2006 3:44:03 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry G, let me know when you get my check for the bat. That's right, Dean !! I'm buying a bat !! jd cd: What type of bat and what do you plan to do with this bat-should I be concerned of answering my door? I Should have kept the wolf/ dog. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ..what if, perhaps. elemental to BTs commentary, there genuinely appears to be a qualitatively greater revelation than your 'greater revelation'? On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
kidding, of course. Actually, I am going to use the bat at the local batting cages. The closest thing to physical excercise that I really want to get, in my old age. jd -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/6/2006 3:44:03 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry G, let me know when you get my check for the bat. That's right, Dean !! I'm buying a bat !! jd cd: What type of bat and what do you plan to do with this bat-should I be concerned of answering my door? I Should have kept the wolf/ dog. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ..what if, perhaps. elemental to BTs commentary, there genuinely appears to be a qualitatively greater revelation than your 'greater revelation'? On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Well, your clock is gonna stopAt Saint Peter's gate.Ya gonna ask him what time it is,He's gonna say, "It's too late."Hey, hey!_I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day._ You're gonna start to sweatAnd you ain't gonna stop.You're gonna have a nightmareAnd never wake up.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna cry for pillsAnd your head's gonna be in a knot,But the pills are gonna cost moreThan what you've got.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna have to walk naked,Can't ride in no car.You're gonna let ev'rybody seeJust what you are.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. Well, the good wine's a-flowin'For five cents a quart.You're gonna look in your moneybagsAnd find you're one cent short.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna yell and scream,"Don't anybody care?"You're gonna hear out a voice say,"Shoulda listened when you heard the word down there."Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day.Bob Dylan :: Copyright © 1964 On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Hmmm! Dylan ought to be much more concerned about being him on that day. On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:25:35 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, your clock is gonna stopAt Saint Peter's gate.Ya gonna ask him what time it is,He's gonna say, "It's too late."Hey, hey!_I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day._ You're gonna start to sweatAnd you ain't gonna stop.You're gonna have a nightmareAnd never wake up.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna cry for pillsAnd your head's gonna be in a knot,But the pills are gonna cost moreThan what you've got.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna have to walk naked,Can't ride in no car.You're gonna let ev'rybody seeJust what you are.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. Well, the good wine's a-flowin'For five cents a quart.You're gonna look in your moneybagsAnd find you're one cent short.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna yell and scream,"Don't anybody care?"You're gonna hear out a voice say,"Shoulda listened when you heard the word down there."Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day.Bob Dylan :: Copyright © 1964 On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Actually, the G man has given us one of Dylan's better quotes. -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hmmm! Dylan ought to be much more concerned about being him on that day. On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:25:35 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, your clock is gonna stopAt Saint Peter's gate.Ya gonna ask him what time it is,He's gonna say, "It's too late."Hey, hey!_I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day._ You're gonna start to sweatAnd you ain't gonna stop.You're gonna have a nightmareAnd never wake up.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna cry for pillsAnd your head's gonna be in a knot,But the pills are gonna cost moreThan what you've got.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna have to walk naked,Can't ride in no car.You're gonna let ev'rybody seeJust what you are.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. Well, the good wine's a-flowin'For five cents a quart.You're gonna look in your moneybagsAnd find you're one cent short.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna yell and scream,"Don't anybody care?"You're gonna hear out a voice say,"Shoulda listened when you heard the word down there."Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day.Bob Dylan :: Copyright © 1964 On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
- Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/6/2006 9:56:15 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry kidding, of course. Actually, I am going to use the bat at the local batting cages. The closest thing to physical excercise that I really want to get, in my old age. jd cd: How old are you John? I am 44 now and kinda like this age. Splitting firewood is enough exercise for me. -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/6/2006 3:44:03 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry G, let me know when you get my check for the bat. That's right, Dean !! I'm buying a bat !! jd cd: What type of bat and what do you plan to do with this bat-should I be concerned of answering my door? I Should have kept the wolf/ dog. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ..what if, perhaps. elemental to BTs commentary, there genuinely appears to be a qualitatively greater revelation than your 'greater revelation'? On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
60 years old. I think I am five or six years younger than Judy -- that would make her the matriarch of the forum. jd -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/6/2006 9:56:15 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry kidding, of course. Actually, I am going to use the bat at the local batting cages. The closest thing to physical excercise that I really want to get, in my old age. jd cd: How old are you John? I am 44 now and kinda like this age. Splitting firewood is enough exercise for me. -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/6/2006 3:44:03 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry G, let me know when you get my check for the bat. That's right, Dean !! I'm buying a bat !! jd cd: What type of bat and what do you plan to do with this bat-should I be concerned of answering my door? I Should have kept the wolf/ dog. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ..what if, perhaps. elemental to BTs commentary, there genuinely appears to be a qualitatively greater revelation than your 'greater revelation'? On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
AMEN to Dylan's insightful song--liked especially the part about sweatin' . . . maybe like in the Garden of G? :>) Blainerb In a message dated 1/7/2006 6:29:13 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually, the G man has given us one of Dylan's better quotes. -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hmmm! Dylan ought to be much more concerned about being him on that day. On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:25:35 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, your clock is gonna stopAt Saint Peter's gate.Ya gonna ask him what time it is,He's gonna say, "It's too late."Hey, hey!_I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day._ You're gonna start to sweatAnd you ain't gonna stop.You're gonna have a nightmareAnd never wake up.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna cry for pillsAnd your head's gonna be in a knot,But the pills are gonna cost moreThan what you've got.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna have to walk naked,Can't ride in no car.You're gonna let ev'rybody seeJust what you are.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. Well, the good wine's a-flowin'For five cents a quart.You're gonna look in your moneybagsAnd find you're one cent short.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna yell and scream,"Don't anybody care?"You're gonna hear out a voice say,"Shoulda listened when you heard the word down there."Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day.Bob Dylan :: Copyright © 1964
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Judge not that ye be not judged-- Blainerb In a message dated 1/7/2006 3:23:17 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hmmm! Dylan ought to be much more concerned about being him on that day. On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:25:35 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, your clock is gonna stopAt Saint Peter's gate.Ya gonna ask him what time it is,He's gonna say, "It's too late."Hey, hey!_I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day._ You're gonna start to sweatAnd you ain't gonna stop.You're gonna have a nightmareAnd never wake up.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna cry for pillsAnd your head's gonna be in a knot,But the pills are gonna cost moreThan what you've got.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna have to walk naked,Can't ride in no car.You're gonna let ev'rybody seeJust what you are.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. Well, the good wine's a-flowin'For five cents a quart.You're gonna look in your moneybagsAnd find you're one cent short.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna yell and scream,"Don't anybody care?"You're gonna hear out a voice say,"Shoulda listened when you heard the word down there."Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day.Bob Dylan :: Copyright © 1964 On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" Jesus the Christ (John 7:24) Blaine are you saying that Dylan's pointing the finger at others is righteous? On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 01:32:37 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judge not that ye be not judged-- Blainerb In a message dated 1/7/2006 3:23:17 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hmmm! Dylan ought to be much more concerned about being him on that day. On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:25:35 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, your clock is gonna stopAt Saint Peter's gate.Ya gonna ask him what time it is,He's gonna say, "It's too late."Hey, hey!_I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day._ You're gonna start to sweatAnd you ain't gonna stop.You're gonna have a nightmareAnd never wake up.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna cry for pillsAnd your head's gonna be in a knot,But the pills are gonna cost moreThan what you've got.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna have to walk naked,Can't ride in no car.You're gonna let ev'rybody seeJust what you are.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. Well, the good wine's a-flowin'For five cents a quart.You're gonna look in your moneybagsAnd find you're one cent short.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna yell and scream,"Don't anybody care?"You're gonna hear out a voice say,"Shoulda listened when you heard the word down there."Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day.Bob Dylan :: Copyright © 1964 On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
- Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/7/2006 8:17:39 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry 60 years old. I think I am five or six years younger than Judy -- that would make her the matriarch of the forum. jd cd: Age and wisdom goes together-if God enlightens. Word while it is still day for the night comes. -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/6/2006 9:56:15 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry kidding, of course. Actually, I am going to use the bat at the local batting cages. The closest thing to physical excercise that I really want to get, in my old age. jd cd: How old are you John? I am 44 now and kinda like this age. Splitting firewood is enough exercise for me. -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/6/2006 3:44:03 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry G, let me know when you get my check for the bat. That's right, Dean !! I'm buying a bat !! jd cd: What type of bat and what do you plan to do with this bat-should I be concerned of answering my door? I Should have kept the wolf/ dog. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ..what if, perhaps. elemental to BTs commentary, there genuinely appears to be a qualitatively greater revelation than your 'greater revelation'? On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Amen Dean, Amen! On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 10:02:44 -0500 "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: 60 years old. I think I am five or six years younger than Judy -- that would make her the matriarch of the forum. jd cd: Age and wisdom goes together-if God enlightens. Word while it is still day for the night comes. From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] kidding, of course. Actually, I am going to use the bat at the local batting cages. The closest thing to physical excercise that I really want to get, in my old age. jd cd: How old are you John? I am 44 now and kinda like this age. Splitting firewood is enough exercise for me. --From: "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] G, let me know when you get my check for the bat. That's right, Dean !! I'm buying a bat !! jd cd: What type of bat and what do you plan to do with this bat-should I be concerned of answering my door? I Should have kept the wolf/ dog. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ..what if, perhaps. elemental to BTs commentary, there genuinely appears to be a qualitatively greater revelation than your 'greater revelation'? On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Hey Judy, I've got a question for you: When Street Preachers point their fingers at Blaine and say 'Repent or you're going to hell!" is that righteous? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 3:09 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" Jesus the Christ (John 7:24) Blaine are you saying that Dylan's pointing the finger at others is righteous? On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 01:32:37 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judge not that ye be not judged-- Blainerb In a message dated 1/7/2006 3:23:17 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hmmm! Dylan ought to be much more concerned about being him on that day. On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:25:35 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, your clock is gonna stopAt Saint Peter's gate.Ya gonna ask him what time it is,He's gonna say, "It's too late."Hey, hey!_I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day._ You're gonna start to sweatAnd you ain't gonna stop.You're gonna have a nightmareAnd never wake up.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna cry for pillsAnd your head's gonna be in a knot,But the pills are gonna cost moreThan what you've got.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna have to walk naked,Can't ride in no car.You're gonna let ev'rybody seeJust what you are.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. Well, the good wine's a-flowin'For five cents a quart.You're gonna look in your moneybagsAnd find you're one cent short.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna yell and scream,"Don't anybody care?"You're gonna hear out a voice say,"Shoulda listened when you heard the word down there."Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day.Bob Dylan :: Copyright © 1964 On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, || -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
- Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/8/2006 10:30:14 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry Hey Judy, I've got a question for you: When Street Preachers point their fingers at Blaine and say 'Repent or you're going to hell!" is that righteous? cd: Bill-Speaking as a Street Preacher-We do more then just the calling of repentance and warn of the dangers of hell. We Teach, We preach righteousness can be obtained-We discuss the trinity with others- At Mardi Gras we answer thousand of questions a day till our brain shuts down from exhaustion-many of them the same as we answer here.Some of these question are of a wanting to learn nature some are combative. To call for someone to repent or you are going to hell only usually happens after all other avenues have been closed or that person does something really nasty in out presence. I also feel that the Holy Spirit has lead us to make those type of proclamations. We are told to do so in the Bible Bill. Tell me haven't I done more with DaveH and Blain on this site then rebuke-I will admit of having less patience with false prophets but that is biblical also.? It is the same there- We come here so that Iron can sharpen iron. I have decided a long time ago that due to the fact there aren't many willing t o go to the highway and byways and do the Lords work-as they don't want to see the fields are ready for harvest- that I was not going to stop/hinder anyone ( male ,female,black red, or yellow) from going to those fields (unless sin is present). Lest I find myself warring against God. Please consider my words. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 3:09 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" Jesus the Christ (John 7:24) Blaine are you saying that Dylan's pointing the finger at others is righteous? On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 01:32:37 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judge not that ye be not judged-- Blainerb In a message dated 1/7/2006 3:23:17 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hmmm! Dylan ought to be much more concerned about being him on that day. On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:25:35 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, your clock is gonna stopAt Saint Peter's gate.Ya gonna ask him what time it is,He's gonna say, "It's too late."Hey, hey!_I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day._ You're gonna start to sweatAnd you ain't gonna stop.You're gonna have a nightmareAnd never wake up.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna cry for pillsAnd your head's gonna be in a knot,But the pills are gonna cost moreThan what you've got.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna have to walk naked,Can't ride in no car.You're gonna let ev'rybody seeJust what you are.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. Well, the good wine's a-flowin'For five cents a quart.You're gonna look in your moneybagsAnd find you're one cent short.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna yell and scream,"Don't anybody care?"You're gonna hear out a voice say,"Shoulda listened when you heard the word down there."Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day.Bob Dylan :: Copyright © 1964 On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, || -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Hi Dean. My question was to Judy. If when she answers it, you still want to have a discussion, just say so and I'll come back to your points. Bill (By the way, that may be your practice, but it does not seem to be typical of Street Preachers. I have been to the 16th Street Mall in Denver on more than one occasion, minding my own business, only to have an SP hollar at me to repent or I'm going to hell. Well, how the hell would he know? He doesn't know me at all. He just figures, given the odds, that I am reprobate. That, in my opinion, is lazy evangelism; moreover, it's symptomatic of Wife-Beater Syndrome -- poor gal hangs out at the bar and just can't seem to find a man who won't beat her: Go to the mall and insult people, 'til one of them beats the snout out of you, so you can praise God for having been pursecuted. It doesn't make much sense to me.) - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/8/2006 10:30:14 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry Hey Judy, I've got a question for you: When Street Preachers point their fingers at Blaine and say 'Repent or you're going to hell!" is that righteous? cd: Bill-Speaking as a Street Preacher-We do more then just the calling of repentance and warn of the dangers of hell. We Teach, We preach righteousness can be obtained-We discuss the trinity with others- At Mardi Gras we answer thousand of questions a day till our brain shuts down from exhaustion-many of them the same as we answer here.Some of these question are of a wanting to learn nature some are combative. To call for someone to repent or you are going to hell only usually happens after all other avenues have been closed or that person does something really nasty in out presence. I also feel that the Holy Spirit has lead us to make those type of proclamations. We are told to do so in the Bible Bill. Tell me haven't I done more with DaveH and Blain on this site then rebuke-I will admit of having less patience with false prophets but that is biblical also.? It is the same there- We come here so that Iron can sharpen iron. I have decided a long time ago that due to the fact there aren't many willing t o go to the highway and byways and do the Lords work-as they don't want to see the fields are ready for harvest- that I was not going to stop/hinder anyone ( male ,female,black red, or yellow) from going to those fields (unless sin is present). Lest I find myself warring against God. Please consider my words. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 3:09 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" Jesus the Christ (John 7:24) Blaine are you saying that Dylan's pointing the finger at others is righteous? On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 01:32:37 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judge not that ye be not judged-- Blainerb In a message dated 1/7/2006 3:23:17 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hmmm! Dylan ought to be much more concerned about being him on that day. On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:25:35 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, your clock is gonna stopAt Saint Peter's gate.Ya gonna ask him what time it is,He's gonna say, "It's too late."Hey, hey!_I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day._ You're gonna start to sweatAnd you ain't gonna stop.You're gonna have a nightmareAnd never wake up.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna cry for pillsAnd your head's gonna be in a knot,But the pills are gonna cost moreThan what you've got.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna have to walk naked,Can't ride in no car.You're gonna let ev'rybody seeJust what you are.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. Well, the good wine's a-flowin'For five cents a quart.You're gonna look in your moneybagsAnd find you're one cent short.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
'amen' that, & that greater revelation provides a slooo of innocuous commentary On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 01:08:09 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: AMEN to Dylan's insightful song--liked especially the part about sweatin' . . . maybe like in the Garden of G? :>) Blainerb In a message dated 1/7/2006 6:29:13 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually, the G man has given us one of Dylan's better quotes. -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hmmm! Dylan ought to be much more concerned about being him on that day. On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:25:35 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, your clock is gonna stopAt Saint Peter's gate.Ya gonna ask him what time it is,He's gonna say, "It's too late."Hey, hey!_I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day._ You're gonna start to sweatAnd you ain't gonna stop.You're gonna have a nightmareAnd never wake up.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna cry for pillsAnd your head's gonna be in a knot,But the pills are gonna cost moreThan what you've got.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna have to walk naked,Can't ride in no car.You're gonna let ev'rybody seeJust what you are.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. Well, the good wine's a-flowin'For five cents a quart.You're gonna look in your moneybagsAnd find you're one cent short.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna yell and scream,"Don't anybody care?"You're gonna hear out a voice say,"Shoulda listened when you heard the word down there."Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day.Bob Dylan :: Copyright © 1964
Fw: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
My apologies to the Street Preachers everywhere for having drug them into this. I'll make my point another way: Blaine are you saying that Dylan's pointing the finger at others is righteous? . . . Hmmm! Dylan ought to be much more concerned about being him on that day. . . . "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" Jesus the Christ (John 7:24) - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 3:09 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" Jesus the Christ (John 7:24) On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 01:32:37 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judge not that ye be not judged-- Blainerb In a message dated 1/7/2006 3:23:17 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hmmm! Dylan ought to be much more concerned about being him on that day. On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:25:35 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, your clock is gonna stopAt Saint Peter's gate.Ya gonna ask him what time it is,He's gonna say, "It's too late."Hey, hey!_I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day._ You're gonna start to sweatAnd you ain't gonna stop.You're gonna have a nightmareAnd never wake up.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna cry for pillsAnd your head's gonna be in a knot,But the pills are gonna cost moreThan what you've got.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna have to walk naked,Can't ride in no car.You're gonna let ev'rybody seeJust what you are.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. Well, the good wine's a-flowin'For five cents a quart.You're gonna look in your moneybagsAnd find you're one cent short.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna yell and scream,"Don't anybody care?"You're gonna hear out a voice say,"Shoulda listened when you heard the word down there."Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day.Bob Dylan :: Copyright © 1964 On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, || -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
How does one point a finger over the internet? You'd need a pretty long finger wouldn't you? It's a different playing field and Blaine gives as good as he gets. On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 08:40:27 -0700 "Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Hey Judy, I've got a question for you: When Street Preachers point their fingers at Blaine and say 'Repent or you're going to hell!" is that righteous? From: Judy Taylor "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" Jesus the Christ (John 7:24) Blaine are you saying that Dylan's pointing the finger at others is righteous? On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 01:32:37 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judge not that ye be not judged-- Blainerb In a message dated 1/7/2006 3:23:17 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hmmm! Dylan ought to be much more concerned about being him on that day. On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:25:35 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, your clock is gonna stopAt Saint Peter's gate.Ya gonna ask him what time it is,He's gonna say, "It's too late."Hey, hey!_I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day._ You're gonna start to sweatAnd you ain't gonna stop.You're gonna have a nightmareAnd never wake up.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna cry for pillsAnd your head's gonna be in a knot,But the pills are gonna cost moreThan what you've got.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna have to walk naked,Can't ride in no car.You're gonna let ev'rybody seeJust what you are.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. Well, the good wine's a-flowin'For five cents a quart.You're gonna look in your moneybagsAnd find you're one cent short.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna yell and scream,"Don't anybody care?"You're gonna hear out a voice say,"Shoulda listened when you heard the word down there."Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day.Bob Dylan :: Copyright © 1964 On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, || -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
How does one point a finger lyrically, Judy? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry How does one point a finger over the internet? You'd need a pretty long finger wouldn't you? It's a different playing field and Blaine gives as good as he gets. On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 08:40:27 -0700 "Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Hey Judy, I've got a question for you: When Street Preachers point their fingers at Blaine and say 'Repent or you're going to hell!" is that righteous? From: Judy Taylor "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" Jesus the Christ (John 7:24) Blaine are you saying that Dylan's pointing the finger at others is righteous? On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 01:32:37 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judge not that ye be not judged-- Blainerb In a message dated 1/7/2006 3:23:17 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hmmm! Dylan ought to be much more concerned about being him on that day. On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:25:35 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, your clock is gonna stopAt Saint Peter's gate.Ya gonna ask him what time it is,He's gonna say, "It's too late."Hey, hey!_I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day._ You're gonna start to sweatAnd you ain't gonna stop.You're gonna have a nightmareAnd never wake up.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna cry for pillsAnd your head's gonna be in a knot,But the pills are gonna cost moreThan what you've got.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna have to walk naked,Can't ride in no car.You're gonna let ev'rybody seeJust what you are.Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. Well, the good wine's a-flowin'For five cents a quart.You're gonna look in your moneybagsAnd find you're one cent short.Hey, hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day. You're gonna yell and scream,"Don't anybody care?"You're gonna hear out a voice say,"Shoulda listened when you heard the word down there."Hey, hey!I'd sure hate to be youOn that dreadful day.Bob Dylan :: Copyright © 1964 On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, || -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Er, uh no, as a matter of fact, I was wondering why you were passing judgement on poor ol' Dylan? :>) Maybe you are wrong about the poor fella. He might have his faults, but don't we all? Blaine In a message dated 1/8/2006 3:11:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" Jesus the Christ (John 7:24) Blaine are you saying that Dylan's pointing the finger at others is righteous? On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 01:32:37 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judge not that ye be not judged-- Blainerb In a message dated 1/7/2006 3:23:17 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hmmm! Dylan ought to be much more concerned about being him on that day.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Someone walking in the fear of God would be aware that he needs to clean up his own backyard before lamenting the fate of others. Excluding ministry gifts of course - but I don't see travelling minstrels listed among them. On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 15:55:20 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Er, uh no, as a matter of fact, I was wondering why you were passing judgement on poor ol' Dylan? :>) Maybe you are wrong about the poor fella. He might have his faults, but don't we all? Blaine In a message dated 1/8/2006 3:11:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment" Jesus the Christ (John 7:24) Blaine are you saying that Dylan's pointing the finger at others is righteous? On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 01:32:37 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judge not that ye be not judged-- Blainerb In a message dated 1/7/2006 3:23:17 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hmmm! Dylan ought to be much more concerned about being him on that day.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
In a message dated 1/8/2006 8:30:42 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hey Judy, I've got a question for you: When Street Preachers point their fingers at Blaine and say 'Repent or you're going to hell!" is that righteous? Blainerb: Answer, but from Blaine, not Judy: NO!! :>) Street Preachers do more harm than good--that is the consensus of opinion, at least among the more righteous preachers of traditional Christianity. Even Rocky Anderson, Salt Lake City Mayor, a former ACLU Attorney, was turned off by the insolent behavior of the street preachers. He finally sided with the LDS Church on the Plaza issue, mainly because of the SPs.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Blaine, if money were not involved, don't you think the outcome would have been a bit different? Follow the money, Blaine. The love of money is the root of all evil. The Mormons supplied the money. The city leaders took it. Think about it. Peace be with you. David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 7:48 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry In a message dated 1/8/2006 8:30:42 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hey Judy, I've got a question for you: When Street Preachers point their fingers at Blaine and say 'Repent or you're going to hell!" is that righteous? Blainerb: Answer, but from Blaine, not Judy: NO!! :>) Street Preachers do more harm than good--that is the consensus of opinion, at least among the more righteous preachers of traditional Christianity. Even Rocky Anderson, Salt Lake City Mayor, a former ACLU Attorney, was turned off by the insolent behavior of the street preachers. He finally sided with the LDS Church on the Plaza issue, mainly because of the SPs. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
In a message dated 1/8/2006 2:06:16 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone walking in the fear of God would be aware that he needs to clean up his own backyard before lamenting the fate of others. Excluding ministry gifts of course - but I don't see travelling minstrels listed among them. Blainerb: "If any of ye lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally . . . "
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
myth ("God..giveth to all men liberally . . . " , but not necessarily wisdom, Bro; when you're actually interested in that, James says "ask") On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 20:18:40 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 1/8/2006 2:06:16 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone walking in the fear of God would be aware that he needs to clean up his own backyard before lamenting the fate of others. Excluding ministry gifts of course - but I don't see travelling minstrels listed among them. Blainerb: "If any of ye lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally . . . "
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Blainerb: You may have a point there, David--the value of the property being offered to the city by the LDS Church was no small amount (but it is conjectural only). Rocky gave his reasons, which appeared in print and on TV several times, and included were his personal experiences watching SPs on the Plaza--he also expressed fears that such would get worse, not better. His interest was mainly in bringing the divergent groups in the city together in a compromise situation, and the fact that the LDS Church sweetened that situation was only part of the deal. He maintained that the bottom line was the behavior of the SPs--he was clearly afraid of that sort of thing creating more divisiveness, which, more than anything,would pose a threat to his continuance as Mayor of the city--so, it had political overtones, I guess you might say, as well. Let's face it, SPs were not popular even among those opposed to the Plaza. In a message dated 1/8/2006 6:02:24 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine, if money were not involved, don't you think the outcome would have been a bit different? Follow the money, Blaine. The love of money is the root of all evil. The Mormons supplied the money. The city leaders took it. Think about it.Peace be with you.David Miller.- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 7:48 PMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & FreemasonryIn a message dated 1/8/2006 8:30:42 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Hey Judy, I've got a question for you: When Street Preachers point their fingers at Blaine and say 'Repent or you're going to hell!" is that righteous?Blainerb: Answer, but from Blaine, not Judy: NO!! :>) Street Preachers do more harm than good--that is the consensus of opinion, at least among the more righteous preachers of traditional Christianity. Even Rocky Anderson, Salt Lake City Mayor, a former ACLU Attorney, was turned off by the insolent behavior of the street preachers. He finally sided with the LDS Church on the Plaza issue, mainly because of the SPs.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
..actually, James also tells us Who to "ask", exclusively, Bro On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 18:27:43 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: myth ("God..giveth to all men liberally . . . " , but not necessarily wisdom, Bro; when you're actually interested in that, James says "ask") On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 20:18:40 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 1/8/2006 2:06:16 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Someone walking in the fear of God would be aware that he needs to clean up his own backyard before lamenting the fate of others. Excluding ministry gifts of course - but I don't see travelling minstrels listed among them. Blainerb: "If any of ye lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally . . . "
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Blaine wrote: > Let's face it, SPs were not popular even > among those opposed to the Plaza. Do you mean, "even among those opposed to the PRIVATIZATION of the Plaza"? I'm only asking you to consider the ultimate WHY concerning the objection to Street Preachers. There are many reasons that people state that sound legitimate, but the true reasons are often under the surface. From my perspective, the motivation of those who supported privatizing the Plaza was power / control and money. The motivation of the street preachers was none of these things. They paid out of their own pocket to be there. Nobody paid them a cent. I discern no desire on their part to control others. As far as I can tell, their only motivation was to have their message heard. That could have been resolved in a less expensive way by inviting the Street Preachers to come indoors in a more orderly forum and deliver their message. There were many others ways to resolve this matter, and the costly solution arrived at is still not an ultimate solution. Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry Blainerb: You may have a point there, David--the value of the property being offered to the city by the LDS Church was no small amount (but it is conjectural only). Rocky gave his reasons, which appeared in print and on TV several times, and included were his personal experiences watching SPs on the Plaza--he also expressed fears that such would get worse, not better. His interest was mainly in bringing the divergent groups in the city together in a compromise situation, and the fact that the LDS Church sweetened that situation was only part of the deal. He maintained that the bottom line was the behavior of the SPs--he was clearly afraid of that sort of thing creating more divisiveness, which, more than anything,would pose a threat to his continuance as Mayor of the city--so, it had political overtones, I guess you might say, as well. Let's face it, SPs were not popular even among those opposed to the Plaza. In a message dated 1/8/2006 6:02:24 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine, if money were not involved, don't you think the outcome would have been a bit different? Follow the money, Blaine. The love of money is the root of all evil. The Mormons supplied the money. The city leaders took it. Think about it.Peace be with you.David Miller.- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 7:48 PMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & FreemasonryIn a message dated 1/8/2006 8:30:42 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Hey Judy, I've got a question for you: When Street Preachers point their fingers at Blaine and say 'Repent or you're going to hell!" is that righteous?Blainerb: Answer, but from Blaine, not Judy: NO!! :>) Street Preachers do more harm than good--that is the consensus of opinion, at least among the more righteous preachers of traditional Christianity. Even Rocky Anderson, Salt Lake City Mayor, a former ACLU Attorney, was turned off by the insolent behavior of the street preachers. He finally sided with the LDS Church on the Plaza issue, mainly because of the SPs.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
- Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/8/2006 7:48:43 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry In a message dated 1/8/2006 8:30:42 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hey Judy, I've got a question for you: When Street Preachers point their fingers at Blaine and say 'Repent or you're going to hell!" is that righteous? Blainerb: Answer, but from Blaine, not Judy: NO!! :>) Street Preachers do more harm than good--that is the consensus of opinion, at least among the more righteous preachers of traditional Christianity. Even Rocky Anderson, Salt Lake City Mayor, a former ACLU Attorney, was turned off by the insolent behavior of the street preachers. He finally sided with the LDS Church on the Plaza issue, mainly because of the SPs. Cd: Blaine why would an atheist member of an atheists organizations- as is the ACLU- ever agree with the word of God. I preach Jesus and Him crucified to the world. How I not done so on this site? This alone offend the God haters such as the ACLU. What one should be concerned with is why would any member of this atheists organization side with your religion?What does God and mammon have in common?
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
- Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/8/2006 8:35:05 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry Blainerb: You may have a point there, David--the value of the property being offered to the city by the LDS Church was no small amount (but it is conjectural only). Rocky gave his reasons, which appeared in print and on TV several times, and included were his personal experiences watching SPs on the Plaza--he also expressed fears that such would get worse, not better. His interest was mainly in bringing the divergent groups in the city together in a compromise situation, and the fact that the LDS Church sweetened that situation was only part of the deal. He maintained that the bottom line was the behavior of the SPs--he was clearly afraid of that sort of thing creating more divisiveness, which, more than anything,would pose a threat to his continuance as Mayor of the city--so, it had political overtones, I guess you might say, as well. Let's face it, SPs were not popular even among those opposed to the Plaza. cd: Nor do we seek popularity Blaine-We seek only to preach Christ to those on in SLC where we have seen many conversions. If this causes the Mayor grief then he should look unto his own life and why would this make him unpopular-not find fault in what we preach as we know the whole world will hate us but we are of good cheer because it hated our master before us and we are not greater than Him.If I went to Mecca would I be popular? Why not? How far do you think those Moslems would go to stop us:-) In a message dated 1/8/2006 6:02:24 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine, if money were not involved, don't you think the outcome would have been a bit different? Follow the money, Blaine. The love of money is the root of all evil. The Mormons supplied the money. The city leaders took it. Think about it.Peace be with you.David Miller.- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 7:48 PMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & FreemasonryIn a message dated 1/8/2006 8:30:42 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Hey Judy, I've got a question for you: When Street Preachers point their fingers at Blaine and say 'Repent or you're going to hell!" is that righteous?Blainerb: Answer, but from Blaine, not Judy: NO!! :>) Street Preachers do more harm than good--that is the consensus of opinion, at least among the more righteous preachers of traditional Christianity. Even Rocky Anderson, Salt Lake City Mayor, a former ACLU Attorney, was turned off by the insolent behavior of the street preachers. He finally sided with the LDS Church on the Plaza issue, mainly because of the SPs.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
- Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/8/2006 12:49:41 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry Hi Dean. My question was to Judy. If when she answers it, you still want to have a discussion, just say so and I'll come back to your points. Bill (By the way, that may be your practice, but it does not seem to be typical of Street Preachers. I have been to the 16th Street Mall in Denver on more than one occasion, minding my own business, only to have an SP hollar at me to repent or I'm going to hell. Well, how the hell would he know? He doesn't know me at all. He just figures, given the odds, that I am reprobate. That, in my opinion, is lazy evangelism; moreover, it's symptomatic of Wife-Beater Syndrome -- poor gal hangs out at the bar and just can't seem to find a man who won't beat her: Go to the mall and insult people, 'til one of them beats the snout out of you, so you can praise God for having been pursecuted. It doesn't make much sense to me.) cd: Hello Bill. I cannot answer for all Street Preachers as I believe each person will give account for what they preach but we often try to help other preachers convey the truth by correction with love to a deeper understanding of Christ. I would like to know if this preacher spoke of Christ and grace or was it just Repent or you will go to hell". How much time did you listen to him preach?
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
I have had several encounters with SPs over the years, Dean. And I have observed Kevin's approach to ministry here on TT, not to mention others who have drifted in and out over the last couple of years. And so, I will be the first to admit to a limited experience. Yes, I hung around and listened on more than one occasion, as I was curious to see the kinds of reactions their preaching provoked. And no, it didn't seem to me that they ever really got to the Gospel. "Christ," it seemed, was but a segue to the soul of their message: "Repent, or be damn!" Having said that, I am opened to having misjudged Street Preachers as a whole, by the few I have encountered. That is why I am open to meeting you in N.O. Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 11:10 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/8/2006 12:49:41 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry Hi Dean. My question was to Judy. If when she answers it, you still want to have a discussion, just say so and I'll come back to your points. Bill (By the way, that may be your practice, but it does not seem to be typical of Street Preachers. I have been to the 16th Street Mall in Denver on more than one occasion, minding my own business, only to have an SP hollar at me to repent or I'm going to hell. Well, how the hell would he know? He doesn't know me at all. He just figures, given the odds, that I am reprobate. That, in my opinion, is lazy evangelism; moreover, it's symptomatic of Wife-Beater Syndrome -- poor gal hangs out at the bar and just can't seem to find a man who won't beat her: Go to the mall and insult people, 'til one of them beats the snout out of you, so you can praise God for having been pursecuted. It doesn't make much sense to me.) cd: Hello Bill. I cannot answer for all Street Preachers as I believe each person will give account for what they preach but we often try to help other preachers convey the truth by correction with love to a deeper understanding of Christ. I would like to know if this preacher spoke of Christ and grace or was it just Repent or you will go to hell". How much time did you listen to him preach? -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
- Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/10/2006 1:02:01 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry I have had several encounters with SPs over the years, Dean. And I have observed Kevin's approach to ministry here on TT, not to mention others who have drifted in and out over the last couple of years. And so, I will be the first to admit to a limited experience. Yes, I hung around and listened on more than one occasion, as I was curious to see the kinds of reactions their preaching provoked. And no, it didn't seem to me that they ever really got to the Gospel. "Christ," it seemed, was but a segue to the soul of their message: "Repent, or be damn!" Having said that, I am opened to having misjudged Street Preachers as a whole, by the few I have encountered. That is why I am open to meeting you in N.O. Bill cd: Fair enough Bill-May God bless you. If one preaches the condemnation of the law of sin-then one must give the sinner a way out-which is Christ-to fail to do so is to leave a soul in torment not in a state of grace-This should be told to the next preachers you wittiness doing such. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 11:10 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/8/2006 12:49:41 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry Hi Dean. My question was to Judy. If when she answers it, you still want to have a discussion, just say so and I'll come back to your points. Bill (By the way, that may be your practice, but it does not seem to be typical of Street Preachers. I have been to the 16th Street Mall in Denver on more than one occasion, minding my own business, only to have an SP hollar at me to repent or I'm going to hell. Well, how the hell would he know? He doesn't know me at all. He just figures, given the odds, that I am reprobate. That, in my opinion, is lazy evangelism; moreover, it's symptomatic of Wife-Beater Syndrome -- poor gal hangs out at the bar and just can't seem to find a man who won't beat her: Go to the mall and insult people, 'til one of them beats the snout out of you, so you can praise God for having been pursecuted. It doesn't make much sense to me.) cd: Hello Bill. I cannot answer for all Street Preachers as I believe each person will give account for what they preach but we often try to help other preachers convey the truth by correction with love to a deeper understanding of Christ. I would like to know if this preacher spoke of Christ and grace or was it just Repent or you will go to hell". How much time did you listen to him preach? -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
- Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/10/2006 1:02:01 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry I have had several encounters with SPs over the years, Dean. And I have observed Kevin's approach to ministry here on TT, not to mention others who have drifted in and out over the last couple of years. And so, I will be the first to admit to a limited experience. Yes, I hung around and listened on more than one occasion, as I was curious to see the kinds of reactions their preaching provoked. And no, it didn't seem to me that they ever really got to the Gospel. "Christ," it seemed, was but a segue to the soul of their message: "Repent, or be damn!" Having said that, I am opened to having misjudged Street Preachers as a whole, by the few I have encountered. That is why I am open to meeting you in N.O. Bill cd: I would like to add in Kevin"s defense-that this forum is limited in it's expressive forms-One cannot truly learn another on this site- Kevin has a big heart for the lost and I have seen him stand and discuss truth for hours with one individual-Great patience and love shown by Kevin but not seen on this site.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
How Kevin treats someone who is willing to listen to him for an extended period of time has little to do with the way he treats those on this forum with whom he disagrees. jd -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/10/2006 1:02:01 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry I have had several encounters with SPs over the years, Dean. And I have observed Kevin's approach to ministry here on TT, not to mention others who have drifted in and out over the last couple of years. And so, I will be the first to admit to a limited experience. Yes, I hung around and listened on more than one occasion, as I was curious to see the kinds of reactions their preaching provoked. And no, it didn't seem to me that they ever really got to the Gospel. "Christ," it seemed, was but a segue to the soul of their message: "Repent, or be damn!" Having said that, I am opened to having misjudged Street Preachers as a whole, by the few I have encountered. That is why I am open to meeting you in N.O. Bill cd: I would like to add in Kevin"s defense-that this forum is limited in it's expressive forms-One cannot truly learn another on this site- Kevin has a big heart for the lost and I have seen him stand and discuss truth for hours with one individual-Great patience and love shown by Kevin but not seen on this site.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Kevin spent a lot of time researching and posting to this list and it was always informative I have to admire his persistence as well as his zeal and I miss his presence here every day. On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 00:59:30 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How Kevin treats someone who is willing to listen to him for an extended period of time has little to do with the way he treats those on this forum with whom he disagrees. jd From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: Taylor I have had several encounters with SPs over the years, Dean. And I have observed Kevin's approach to ministry here on TT, not to mention others who have drifted in and out over the last couple of years. And so, I will be the first to admit to a limited experience. Yes, I hung around and listened on more than one occasion, as I was curious to see the kinds of reactions their preaching provoked. And no, it didn't seem to me that they ever really got to the Gospel. "Christ," it seemed, was but a segue to the soul of their message: "Repent, or be damn!" Having said that, I am opened to having misjudged Street Preachers as a whole, by the few I have encountered. That is why I am open to meeting you in N.O. Bill cd: I would like to add in Kevin"s defense-that this forum is limited in it's expressive forms-One cannot truly learn another on this site- Kevin has a big heart for the lost and I have seen him stand and discuss truth for hours with one individual-Great patience and love shown by Kevin but not seen on this site.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Your opinion is duly noted. jd -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kevin spent a lot of time researching and posting to this list and it was always informative I have to admire his persistence as well as his zeal and I miss his presence here every day. On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 00:59:30 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How Kevin treats someone who is willing to listen to him for an extended period of time has little to do with the way he treats those on this forum with whom he disagrees. jd From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: Taylor I have had several encounters with SPs over the years, Dean. And I have observed Kevin's approach to ministry here on TT, not to mention others who have drifted in and out over the last couple of years. And so, I will be the first to admit to a limited experience. Yes, I hung around and listened on more than one occasion, as I was curious to see the kinds of reactions their preaching provoked. And no, it didn't seem to me that they ever really got to the Gospel. "Christ," it seemed, was but a segue to the soul of their message: "Repent, or be damn!" Having said that, I am opened to having misjudged Street Preachers as a whole, by the few I have encountered. That is why I am open to meeting you in N.O. Bill cd: I would like to add in Kevin"s defense-that this forum is limited in it's expressive forms-One cannot truly learn another on this site- Kevin has a big heart for the lost and I have seen him stand and discuss truth for hours with one individual-Great patience and love shown by Kevin but not seen on this site.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
- Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/11/2006 7:59:37 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry How Kevin treats someone who is willing to listen to him for an extended period of time has little to do with the way he treats those on this forum with whom he disagrees. jd cd: What I am trying to say is that there is more to Kevin than what you have seen. -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/10/2006 1:02:01 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry I have had several encounters with SPs over the years, Dean. And I have observed Kevin's approach to ministry here on TT, not to mention others who have drifted in and out over the last couple of years. And so, I will be the first to admit to a limited experience. Yes, I hung around and listened on more than one occasion, as I was curious to see the kinds of reactions their preaching provoked. And no, it didn't seem to me that they ever really got to the Gospel. "Christ," it seemed, was but a segue to the soul of their message: "Repent, or be damn!" Having said that, I am opened to having misjudged Street Preachers as a whole, by the few I have encountered. That is why I am open to meeting you in N.O. Bill cd: I would like to add in Kevin"s defense-that this forum is limited in it's expressive forms-One cannot truly learn another on this site- Kevin has a big heart for the lost and I have seen him stand and discuss truth for hours with one individual-Great patience and love shown by Kevin but not seen on this site.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
There is, Dean, more to everyone. For an excellent example of this see 'Crash'. Rent it, watch it with someone and, have a discussion. It exemplifies this point. IMO, a truly important film. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 12, 2006 07:08 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/11/2006 7:59:37 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry How Kevin treats someone who is willing to listen to him for an extended period of time has little to do with the way he treats those on this forum with whom he disagrees. jd cd: What I am trying to say is that there is more to Kevin than what you have seen. -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/10/2006 1:02:01 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry I have had several encounters with SPs over the years, Dean. And I have observed Kevin's approach to ministry here on TT, not to mention others who have drifted in and out over the last couple of years. And so, I will be the first to admit to a limited experience. Yes, I hung around and listened on more than one occasion, as I was curious to see the kinds of reactions their preaching provoked. And no, it didn't seem to me that they ever really got to the Gospel. "Christ," it seemed, was but a segue to the soul of their message: "Repent, or be damn!" Having said that, I am opened to having misjudged Street Preachers as a whole, by the few I have encountered. That is why I am open to meeting you in N.O. Bill cd: I would like to add in Kevin"s defense-that this forum is limited in it's expressive forms-One cannot truly learn another on this site- Kevin has a big heart for the lost and I have seen him stand and discuss truth for hours with one individual-Great patience and love shown by Kevin but not seen on this site.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Thank Lance-I will look at it -God willing. - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/12/2006 7:13:54 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry There is, Dean, more to everyone. For an excellent example of this see 'Crash'. Rent it, watch it with someone and, have a discussion. It exemplifies this point. IMO, a truly important film. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 12, 2006 07:08 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/11/2006 7:59:37 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry How Kevin treats someone who is willing to listen to him for an extended period of time has little to do with the way he treats those on this forum with whom he disagrees. jd cd: What I am trying to say is that there is more to Kevin than what you have seen. -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/10/2006 1:02:01 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry I have had several encounters with SPs over the years, Dean. And I have observed Kevin's approach to ministry here on TT, not to mention others who have drifted in and out over the last couple of years. And so, I will be the first to admit to a limited experience. Yes, I hung around and listened on more than one occasion, as I was curious to see the kinds of reactions their preaching provoked. And no, it didn't seem to me that they ever really got to the Gospel. "Christ," it seemed, was but a segue to the soul of their message: "Repent, or be damn!" Having said that, I am opened to having misjudged Street Preachers as a whole, by the few I have encountered. That is why I am open to meeting you in N.O. Bill cd: I would like to add in Kevin"s defense-that this forum is limited in it's expressive forms-One cannot truly learn another on this site- Kevin has a big heart for the lost and I have seen him stand and discuss truth for hours with one individual-Great patience and love shown by Kevin but not seen on this site.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
NOTE: There are 2 films with this title. Rent the one released in 2005 with Sandra Bullock.. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 12, 2006 07:48 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry Thank Lance-I will look at it -God willing. - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/12/2006 7:13:54 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry There is, Dean, more to everyone. For an excellent example of this see 'Crash'. Rent it, watch it with someone and, have a discussion. It exemplifies this point. IMO, a truly important film. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 12, 2006 07:08 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/11/2006 7:59:37 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry How Kevin treats someone who is willing to listen to him for an extended period of time has little to do with the way he treats those on this forum with whom he disagrees. jd cd: What I am trying to say is that there is more to Kevin than what you have seen. -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/10/2006 1:02:01 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry I have had several encounters with SPs over the years, Dean. And I have observed Kevin's approach to ministry here on TT, not to mention others who have drifted in and out over the last couple of years. And so, I will be the first to admit to a limited experience. Yes, I hung around and listened on more than one occasion, as I was curious to see the kinds of reactions their preaching provoked. And no, it didn't seem to me that they ever really got to the Gospel. "Christ," it seemed, was but a segue to the soul of their message: "Repent, or be damn!" Having said that, I am opened to having misjudged Street Preachers as a whole, by the few I have encountered. That is why I am open to meeting you in N.O. Bill cd: I would like to add in Kevin"s defense-that this forum is limited in it's expressive forms-One cannot truly learn another on this site- Kevin has a big heart for the lost and I have seen him stand and discuss truth for hours with one individual-Great patience and love shown by Kevin but not seen on this site.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
In a message dated 1/8/2006 11:29:43 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine are you saying that Dylan's pointing the finger at others is righteous? No. I was saying your doing that was, ahem, a little suspect, is all. Blainerb
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
BT said this? On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 19:53:10 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 1/8/2006 11:29:43 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine are you saying that Dylan's pointing the finger at others is righteous? ||
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry
Not hardly. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 5:55 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry BT said this? On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 19:53:10 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 1/8/2006 11:29:43 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine are you saying that Dylan's pointing the finger at others is righteous? ||-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism: some important differences
BLOOD is the key word, I think--which he shed in large quantities in Gethsemane--apparently more than he actually shed on Calvary Sweat AS IF drops of blood. Isn't this the wording of the biblical text? I don't know that there was any blood in Gethsemane except by the hand of Peter. But, if there was , it was "drops." After the garden, He was beaten nearly to death and on the cross, we have the wounds in his hands and feet, the blood from the thorny crown and the wound to His side. Blaine, really, you couldn't be more mistaken on this one. But more than this, the First Scriptures do not attach atonement significance to Gethsemane. So, for me, I have learned from the Mormon representatives several issues that separate us : 1. They have a "right church" view of the Christian assembly and membership in the "right church" is critical to what happens in the next life. 2. The grace that saves is neither separated from works of law, nor is it unmerited in that sense. Mormonism is a works salvationist religion. 3 The Mormon view of Jewish history is vastly different from the Jewish view of Jewish history - especially as it applies to the "lost tribes," but, also as it applies to the Jewish teachings of blood sacrifice for sin, the failings of a law-based relationship with God and the importance of the death of Christ from a Jewish point of view ... crtical differences, all. 4. Mormon scripture cannot be verified by anyone other than the Mormon faithful. 5. The biblical doctrine (the "Frist Scriptures") teaches a very different Jesus than that of the Mormon religion. 6. The "atonement" doctrine between Christianity and Mormonism is markedly different. This difference can be most easily seen as one Faith gives emphasis to the cross and the shedding of blood while the other does not. If the two representatives of Mormonism are typical, those in the Christian Faith may assume that the notion of the shedding of blood is not understood as it relates to the Law, to the cross or to the continuing forgiveness of the saint. 7. They cannot answer questions as to the differences between the First Scriptures (written and given to a church the Mormons believe to be in good standing - before the "apostasy") and the those scriptures given some 1800 years later. The differences are remarkable in terms quanity and substance. The Mormon notion that the First Chruch was the Right Church demands that the teaching of that first church is both completely revealed and correct. There should be no difference between the First Scriptures and the Mormon seconds. 8. Mormon organization and church terminology is markedly different from the biblical church or the pre-apostate church of history. If we beleive that God "did it right" the first time, in regards to the church, there should be no reason for any differences between the Mormon church and scripture and that of the First Church and the First Scriptures. Note: it is not my intention to outline all of the difference, only those that are of significance to me, those that make the Mormon Faith an impossible religion to defend as "Christian" from my point of view. I would love the opportunity to share in a public discussion of these issues. How does this affect their place in the sight of God? My personal view is this: Joe Smith knew full well that he was an imposture. Few others would have this knowledge. I do believe that God will take this into consideration as the judge of such things. Only because of the truth of the incarnation and the unmerited nature of grace do any of us have a chance at all. God is bigger than any of our failings and the name of Jesus need not be uttered to have redeeming value. jd -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] BLOOD is the key word, I think--which he shed in large quantities in Gethsemane--apparently more than he actually shed on Calvary. When he returns he will be wearing red--right? This is a symbol of his blood drenching his entire body, which it did not do on the cross. In fact, other than the wounds in his hands, feet, and sides, little blood was shed on the Calvary cross. Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism: some important differences
You raise far too many issues for me to take time with--one of the rules of TT as I have understood them is to keep it simple--so, choose whatever, and I will try to deal with it. But the shotgun approach is too time consuming, OK? Thanks for you reply and your interest Blainerb In a message dated 12/17/2005 6:30:41 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: BLOOD is the key word, I think--which he shed in large quantities in Gethsemane--apparently more than he actually shed on Calvary Sweat AS IF drops of blood. Isn't this the wording of the biblical text? I don't know that there was any blood in Gethsemane except by the hand of Peter. But, if there was , it was "drops." After the garden, He was beaten nearly to death and on the cross, we have the wounds in his hands and feet, the blood from the thorny crown and the wound to His side. Blaine, really, you couldn't be more mistaken on this one. But more than this, the First Scriptures do not attach atonement significance to Gethsemane. So, for me, I have learned from the Mormon representatives several issues that separate us : 1. They have a "right church" view of the Christian assembly and membership in the "right church" is critical to what happens in the next life. 2. The grace that saves is neither separated from works of law, nor is it unmerited in that sense. Mormonism is a works salvationist religion. 3 The Mormon view of Jewish history is vastly different from the Jewish view of Jewish history - especially as it applies to the "lost tribes," but, also as it applies to the Jewish teachings of blood sacrifice for sin, the failings of a law-based relationship with God and the importance of the death of Christ from a Jewish point of view ... crtical differences, all. 4. Mormon scripture cannot be verified by anyone other than the Mormon faithful. 5. The biblical doctrine (the "Frist Scriptures") teaches a very different Jesus than that of the Mormon religion. 6. The "atonement" doctrine between Christianity and Mormonism is markedly different. This difference can be most easily seen as one Faith gives emphasis to the cross and the shedding of blood while the other does not. If the two representatives of Mormonism are typical, those in the Christian Faith may assume that the notion of the shedding of blood is not understood as it relates to the Law, to the cross or to the continuing forgiveness of the saint. 7. They cannot answer questions as to the differences between the First Scriptures (written and given to a church the Mormons believe to be in good standing - before the "apostasy") and the those scriptures given some 1800 years later. The differences are remarkable in terms quanity and substance. The Mormon notion that the First Chruch was the Right Church demands that the teaching of that first church is both completely revealed and correct. There should be no difference between the First Scriptures and the Mormon seconds. 8. Mormon organization and church terminology is markedly different from the biblical church or the pre-apostate church of history. If we beleive that God "did it right" the first time, in regards to the church, there should be no reason for any differences between the Mormon church and scripture and that of the First Church and the First Scriptures. Note: it is not my intention to outline all of the difference, only those that are of significance to me, those that make the Mormon Faith an impossible religion to defend as "Christian" from my point of view. I would love the opportunity to share in a public discussion of these issues. How does this affect their place in the sight of God? My personal view is this: Joe Smith knew full well that he was an imposture. Few others would have this knowledge. I do believe that God will take this into consideration as the judge of such things. Only because of the truth of the incarnation and the unmerited nature of grace do any of us have a chance at all. God is bigger than any of our failings and the name of Jesus need not be uttered to have redeeming value. jd -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] BLOOD is the key word, I think--which he shed in large quantities in Gethsemane--apparently more than he actually shed on Calvary. When he returns he will be wearing red--right? This is a symbol of his blood drenching his entire body, which it did not do on the cross. In fact, other than the wounds in his hands, feet, and sides, little blood was shed on the Calvary cross. Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism: some important differences
Blaine, the shotgun effect was not the intent. This was not an argument against the Mormon religion . Rather, it was (and is) a collection of differences between the two world religions -- yours and mine. I suppose any of the 8 points are critical, but the matter of the redemptive action of God is the most critical to me. The debate over the cross tells me that the larger teaching concerning the sacrifical Christ is vastly different.. This teaching is at the very heart of the Christian Faith. And since the biblcial teaching is a part of the First and PreApostate Scriptures, I have no reason to accept whatever the differences are between Mormonism and Christianity on this matter. Perhaps you could explain the Mormon teaching on redemption, its relationship to the Old Law, its affirmation of the (immanent) triune God, its continuing and forgiving effect in the lives of man, especially the disciples of Christ, the place of the cross in Mormonism versus Christianity, the contrast of the blood shed on the cross to the blood of bulls and goats. I could go on. Suffice it to say that the teaching on the Sacrifice of Christ is not a one liner in the biblcial account. Anyway -- if you wanted to start there, great. A public discussion with one of your buds would even be better. jd -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] You raise far too many issues for me to take time with--one of the rules of TT as I have understood them is to keep it simple--so, choose whatever, and I will try to deal with it. But the shotgun approach is too time consuming, OK? Thanks for you reply and your interest Blainerb In a message dated 12/17/2005 6:30:41 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: BLOOD is the key word, I think--which he shed in large quantities in Gethsemane--apparently more than he actually shed on Calvary Sweat AS IF drops of blood. Isn't this the wording of the biblical text? I don't know that there was any blood in Gethsemane except by the hand of Peter. But, if there was , it was "drops." After the garden, He was beaten nearly to death and on the cross, we have the wounds in his hands and feet, the blood from the thorny crown and the wound to His side. Blaine, really, you couldn't be more mistaken on this one. But more than this, the First Scriptures do not attach atonement significance to Gethsemane. So, for me, I have learned from the Mormon representatives several issues that separate us : 1. They have a "right church" view of the Christian assembly and membership in the "right church" is critical to what happens in the next life. 2. The grace that saves is neither separated from works of law, nor is it unmerited in that sense. Mormonism is a works salvationist religion. 3 The Mormon view of Jewish history is vastly different from the Jewish view of Jewish history - especially as it applies to the "lost tribes," but, also as it applies to the Jewish teachings of blood sacrifice for sin, the failings of a law-based relationship with God and the importance of the death of Christ from a Jewish point of view ... crtical differences, all. 4. Mormon scripture cannot be verified by anyone other than the Mormon faithful. 5. The biblical doctrine (the "Frist Scriptures") teaches a very different Jesus than that of the Mormon religion. 6. The "atonement" doctrine between Christianity and Mormonism is markedly different. This difference can be most easily seen as one Faith gives emphasis to the cross and the shedding of blood while the other does not. If the two representatives of Mormonism are typical, those in the Christian Faith may assume that the notion of the shedding of blood is not understood as it relates to the Law, to the cross or to the continuing forgiveness of the saint. 7. They cannot answer questions as to the differences between the First Scriptures (written and given to a church the Mormons believe to be in good standing - before the "apostasy") and the those scriptures given some 1800 years later. The differences are remarkable in terms quanity and substance. The Mormon notion that the First Chruch was the Right Church demands that the teaching of that first church is both completely revealed and correct. There should be no difference between the First Scriptures and the Mormon seconds. 8. Mormon organization and church terminology is markedly different from the biblical church or the pre-apostate church of history. If we beleive that God "did it right" the first time, in regards to the church, there should be no reason for any differences between the Mormon church and scripture and that of the First Church and the First Scriptures. Note: it is not my intention to outline all of the difference, only those that are of significance to me, those that make the Mormon Faith an impossible religion to defend a
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry(update on remnant of Jacob)
Blainerb: What John and brother Moore have written below is the crux of what God meant when he told Joseph Smith that the Protestant ministers of the day taught doctrines of men, which had a form of Godliness, but denied the Power thereof. In other words, they denied the "greater revelation," or the possibility of "greater revelation" than that contained in the Bible. This will turn to their ultimate condemnation, in the great hereafter, because God has all power--and is the same today, yesterday, and forever--including having the right and ability to give forth "greater revelation." If the ministers of Protestant religion do not repent of this prideful stubbornness, then I am thinking one of the most immediate consequences will be for God to empower the Remnant of Jacob to go through, and destroy the wonderful civilization that has been built up over the past two hundred years called the US of A. Those Mexicans, most of whom are descendants of the Aztecs, who by the way worshipped Quetzalquatl, who was described as being a White God who wore a white robe and a beard, just keep coming over the border, don't they? Despite efforts to stay them, and the prophecy contained in 3 Nephi of the BoM creeps closer and closer to being fulfilled every day. I hope when it happens, the "Remnant" will by then have recognized the LDS Church as something other than a "White Guy's" church. There is already evidence this is true. The Navajo language has two words for White men: Biligana, which is a derisive term, meaning something like, "White Enemy," and another term which simply means "White brother." The latter is usually applied to members of the LDS Church. I spent three years teaching Dine' (Navajos) in Southern Utah, and I know that among them are many who have adopted the Black man's symbol for Black Power--a raised, gloved hand--except the fingers of the glove have been cut off, allowing the red man's fingers to show through at the end of the glove, apparently symbolizing the Red Power Movement that has grown from the Black Power Movement. You Protestant cowboys might do well to strap on your six-shooters, 'cause I believe the day will soon come when the game we played as little kids--Cowboys and Indians--may become a nightmarish reality . . . In a message dated 1/7/2006 12:55:32 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/6/2006 9:56:15 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry kidding, of course. Actually, I am going to use the bat at the local batting cages. The closest thing to physical excercise that I really want to get, in my old age. jd cd: How old are you John? I am 44 now and kinda like this age. Splitting firewood is enough exercise for me. -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/6/2006 3:44:03 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry G, let me know when you get my check for the bat. That's right, Dean !! I'm buying a bat !! jd cd: What type of bat and what do you plan to do with this bat-should I be concerned of answering my door? I Should have kept the wolf/ dog. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ..what if, perhaps. elemental to BTs commentary, there genuinely appears to be a qualitatively greater revelation than your 'greater revelation'? On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protesta
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry(update on remnant of Jacob)
cd: One American soldier with one tank could yell in Mexico "Come join Me and be an American Nation by over throwing the Government"! And that nation would fall:-) Now back to the topic at hand-Blain what do you think an Idol is? Is Mary one and why? - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/7/2006 6:10:42 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry(update on remnant of Jacob) Blainerb: What John and brother Moore have written below is the crux of what God meant when he told Joseph Smith that the Protestant ministers of the day taught doctrines of men, which had a form of Godliness, but denied the Power thereof. In other words, they denied the "greater revelation," or the possibility of "greater revelation" than that contained in the Bible. This will turn to their ultimate condemnation, in the great hereafter, because God has all power--and is the same today, yesterday, and forever--including having the right and ability to give forth "greater revelation." If the ministers of Protestant religion do not repent of this prideful stubbornness, then I am thinking one of the most immediate consequences will be for God to empower the Remnant of Jacob to go through, and destroy the wonderful civilization that has been built up over the past two hundred years called the US of A. Those Mexicans, most of whom are descendants of the Aztecs, who by the way worshipped Quetzalquatl, who was described as being a White God who wore a white robe and a beard, just keep coming over the border, don't they? Despite efforts to stay them, and the prophecy contained in 3 Nephi of the BoM creeps closer and closer to being fulfilled every day. I hope when it happens, the "Remnant" will by then have recognized the LDS Church as something other than a "White Guy's" church. There is already evidence this is true. The Navajo language has two words for White men: Biligana, which is a derisive term, meaning something like, "White Enemy," and another term which simply means "White brother." The latter is usually applied to members of the LDS Church. I spent three years teaching Dine' (Navajos) in Southern Utah, and I know that among them are many who have adopted the Black man's symbol for Black Power--a raised, gloved hand--except the fingers of the glove have been cut off, allowing the red man's fingers to show through at the end of the glove, apparently symbolizing the Red Power Movement that has grown from the Black Power Movement. You Protestant cowboys might do well to strap on your six-shooters, 'cause I believe the day will soon come when the game we played as little kids--Cowboys and Indians--may become a nightmarish reality . . . In a message dated 1/7/2006 12:55:32 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/6/2006 9:56:15 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry kidding, of course. Actually, I am going to use the bat at the local batting cages. The closest thing to physical excercise that I really want to get, in my old age. jd cd: How old are you John? I am 44 now and kinda like this age. Splitting firewood is enough exercise for me. -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/6/2006 3:44:03 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry G, let me know when you get my check for the bat. That's right, Dean !! I'm buying a bat !! jd cd: What type of bat and what do you plan to do with this bat-should I be concerned of answering my door? I Should have kept the wolf/ dog. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ..what if, perhaps. elemental to BTs commentary, there genuinely appears to be a qualitatively greater revelation than your 'greater revelation'? On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also, germane to Protestant thought, i suspect) disclosed discreetly from certain revelation per se and all that you (two & cult-apostles like DavidM) would have to say about it is that he (too) rejects 'greater revelation'? On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:02:45 -0800 Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DAVEH: Certainly, none on TT.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what Protestants would say they need it? On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:07:00 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || ..Protestants ..have rejected the greater revelation, ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry(update on remnant of Jacob)
- Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/7/2006 6:10:42 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry(update on remnant of Jacob) Blainerb: What John and brother Moore have written below is the crux of what God meant when he told Joseph Smith that the Protestant ministers of the day taught doctrines of men, which had a form of Godliness, but denied the Power thereof. In other words, they denied the "greater revelation," or the possibility of "greater revelation" than that contained in the Bible. This will turn to their ultimate condemnation, in the great hereafter, because God has all power--and is the same today, yesterday, and forever--including having the right and ability to give forth "greater revelation." cd: Certainly not greater than what Christ has given- from the mouth of another?
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry(update on remnant of Jacob)
Blaine: I have an audio tape, surreptitiously obtained, of the then prophet (1978) describing the 'revelation' (political decision) to permit non-whites into the priesthood. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 07, 2006 18:10 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry(update on remnant of Jacob) Blainerb: What John and brother Moore have written below is the crux of what God meant when he told Joseph Smith that the Protestant ministers of the day taught doctrines of men, which had a form of Godliness, but denied the Power thereof. In other words, they denied the "greater revelation," or the possibility of "greater revelation" than that contained in the Bible. This will turn to their ultimate condemnation, in the great hereafter, because God has all power--and is the same today, yesterday, and forever--including having the right and ability to give forth "greater revelation." If the ministers of Protestant religion do not repent of this prideful stubbornness, then I am thinking one of the most immediate consequences will be for God to empower the Remnant of Jacob to go through, and destroy the wonderful civilization that has been built up over the past two hundred years called the US of A. Those Mexicans, most of whom are descendants of the Aztecs, who by the way worshipped Quetzalquatl, who was described as being a White God who wore a white robe and a beard, just keep coming over the border, don't they? Despite efforts to stay them, and the prophecy contained in 3 Nephi of the BoM creeps closer and closer to being fulfilled every day. I hope when it happens, the "Remnant" will by then have recognized the LDS Church as something other than a "White Guy's" church. There is already evidence this is true. The Navajo language has two words for White men: Biligana, which is a derisive term, meaning something like, "White Enemy," and another term which simply means "White brother." The latter is usually applied to members of the LDS Church. I spent three years teaching Dine' (Navajos) in Southern Utah, and I know that among them are many who have adopted the Black man's symbol for Black Power--a raised, gloved hand--except the fingers of the glove have been cut off, allowing the red man's fingers to show through at the end of the glove, apparently symbolizing the Red Power Movement that has grown from the Black Power Movement. You Protestant cowboys might do well to strap on your six-shooters, 'cause I believe the day will soon come when the game we played as little kids--Cowboys and Indians--may become a nightmarish reality . . . In a message dated 1/7/2006 12:55:32 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/6/2006 9:56:15 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry kidding, of course. Actually, I am going to use the bat at the local batting cages. The closest thing to physical excercise that I really want to get, in my old age. jd cd: How old are you John? I am 44 now and kinda like this age. Splitting firewood is enough exercise for me. -- Original message -- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org;TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/6/2006 3:44:03 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry G, let me know when you get my check for the bat. That's right, Dean !! I'm buying a bat !! jd cd: What type of bat and what do you plan to do with this bat-should I be concerned of answering my door? I Should have kept the wolf/ dog. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ..what if, perhaps. elemental to BTs commentary, there genuinely appears to be a qualitatively greater revelation than your 'greater revelation'? On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:18:48 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: e.g., let's say BT (of TT) confidently comments creatively on necessities (also
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry(update on remnant of Jacob)
Blainerb: The Lord's words never cease--he is the same yesterday, today and forever. Look in your Bible. The words of the Lord never ceased, except to fulfill the prophecy of Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord." This happened during the dark ages, when even the written word was in a dead language--Latin--and the only prophecies heard were those made by astrologers and the like--from uninspired lips. But as the scriptures were translated into native languages and were printed for the masses, the famine began to come to an end. But when more of the word of the Lord than what had been theretofore printed came to light, the preachers of the day rejected it--"A Bible, A Bible, we have a Bible and we need no more Bible," they said, and they continue to say it today. They say it for gain. The Lord's work, which like his word never ceases, does not pay well if the clergy are laymen, which they are in the Lord's church, and which they were in the original church. They went out without purse or script--no money, no big salaries. You are a deceived people. You are deceived by your ministers, who preach for gain. In a message dated 1/8/2006 8:07:44 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd: Certainly not greater than what Christ has given- from the mouth of another? - Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/7/2006 6:10:42 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry(update on remnant of Jacob) Blainerb: What John and brother Moore have written below is the crux of what God meant when he told Joseph Smith that the Protestant ministers of the day taught doctrines of men, which had a form of Godliness, but denied the Power thereof. In other words, they denied the "greater revelation," or the possibility of "greater revelation" than that contained in the Bible. This will turn to their ultimate condemnation, in the great hereafter, because God has all power--and is the same today, yesterday, and forever--including having the right and ability to give forth "greater revelation."
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry(update on remnant of Jacob)
Blainerb: The decision to allow Blacks the PH was made after weeks and even months of agonizing prayer and discussion, which prayer and discussion followed the great success Mormon missionaries were having in Africa. The decision was made solely on the basis of desire to include worthy Black males from that continent in the on-going work of the Lord--mostly missionary work, but other aspects as well. The Mormon Priesthood has always been a lay priesthood, and it was necessary to get those Blacks busy taking care of their own, rather than having White men exercising dominion over them. In a message dated 1/8/2006 12:51:44 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine: I have an audio tape, surreptitiously obtained, of the then prophet (1978) describing the 'revelation' (political decision) to permit non-whites into the priesthood. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 07, 2006 18:10 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry(update on remnant of Jacob) Blainerb: What John and brother Moore have written below is the crux of what God meant when he told Joseph Smith that the Protestant ministers of the day taught doctrines of men, which had a form of Godliness, but denied the Power thereof. In other words, they denied the "greater revelation," or the possibility of "greater revelation" than that contained in the Bible. This will turn to their ultimate condemnation, in the great hereafter, because God has all power--and is the same today, yesterday, and forever--including having the right and ability to give forth "greater revelation." If the ministers of Protestant religion do not repent of this prideful stubbornness, then I am thinking one of the most immediate consequences will be for God to empower the Remnant of Jacob to go through, and destroy the wonderful civilization that has been built up over the past two hundred years called the US of A. Those Mexicans, most of whom are descendants of the Aztecs, who by the way worshipped Quetzalquatl, who was described as being a White God who wore a white robe and a beard, just keep coming over the border, don't they? Despite efforts to stay them, and the prophecy contained in 3 Nephi of the BoM creeps closer and closer to being fulfilled every day. I hope when it happens, the "Remnant" will by then have recognized the LDS Church as something other than a "White Guy's" church. There is already evidence this is true. The Navajo language has two words for White men: Biligana, which is a derisive term, meaning something like, "White Enemy," and another term which simply means "White brother." The latter is usually applied to members of the LDS Church. I spent three years teaching Dine' (Navajos) in Southern Utah, and I know that among them are many who have adopted the Black man's symbol for Black Power--a raised, gloved hand--except the fingers of the glove have been cut off, allowing the red man's fingers to show through at the end of the glove, apparently symbolizing the Red Power Movement that has grown from the Black Power Movement. You Protestant cowboys might do well to strap on your six-shooters, 'cause I believe the day will soon come when the game we played as little kids--Cowboys and Indians--may become a nightmarish reality . . .
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry(update on remnant of Jacob)
In a message dated 1/8/2006 12:51:44 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine: I have an audio tape, surreptitiously obtained, of the then prophet (1978) describing the 'revelation' (political decision) to permit non-whites into the priesthood. I was present in a hospital waiting room when the announcement was made, and I remember it well. But thanks anyway. Blainer
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry(update on remnant of Jacob)
It was a purely pragmatic decision. It was NOT a revelation. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 08, 2006 20:04 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry(update on remnant of Jacob) Blainerb: The decision to allow Blacks the PH was made after weeks and even months of agonizing prayer and discussion, which prayer and discussion followed the great success Mormon missionaries were having in Africa. The decision was made solely on the basis of desire to include worthy Black males from that continent in the on-going work of the Lord--mostly missionary work, but other aspects as well. The Mormon Priesthood has always been a lay priesthood, and it was necessary to get those Blacks busy taking care of their own, rather than having White men exercising dominion over them. In a message dated 1/8/2006 12:51:44 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Blaine: I have an audio tape, surreptitiously obtained, of the then prophet (1978) describing the 'revelation' (political decision) to permit non-whites into the priesthood. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 07, 2006 18:10 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry(update on remnant of Jacob) Blainerb: What John and brother Moore have written below is the crux of what God meant when he told Joseph Smith that the Protestant ministers of the day taught doctrines of men, which had a form of Godliness, but denied the Power thereof. In other words, they denied the "greater revelation," or the possibility of "greater revelation" than that contained in the Bible. This will turn to their ultimate condemnation, in the great hereafter, because God has all power--and is the same today, yesterday, and forever--including having the right and ability to give forth "greater revelation." If the ministers of Protestant religion do not repent of this prideful stubbornness, then I am thinking one of the most immediate consequences will be for God to empower the Remnant of Jacob to go through, and destroy the wonderful civilization that has been built up over the past two hundred years called the US of A. Those Mexicans, most of whom are descendants of the Aztecs, who by the way worshipped Quetzalquatl, who was described as being a White God who wore a white robe and a beard, just keep coming over the border, don't they? Despite efforts to stay them, and the prophecy contained in 3 Nephi of the BoM creeps closer and closer to being fulfilled every day. I hope when it happens, the "Remnant" will by then have recognized the LDS Church as something other than a "White Guy's" church. There is already evidence this is true. The Navajo language has two words for White men: Biligana, which is a derisive term, meaning something like, "White Enemy," and another term which simply means "White brother." The latter is usually applied to members of the LDS Church. I spent three years teaching Dine' (Navajos) in Southern Utah, and I know that among them are many who have adopted the Black man's symbol for Black Power--a raised, gloved hand--except the fingers of the glove have been cut off, allowing the red man's fingers to show through at the end of the glove, apparently symbolizing the Red Power Movement that has grown from the Black Power Movement. You Protestant cowboys might do well to strap on your six-shooters, 'cause I believe the day will soon come when the game we played as little kids--Cowboys and Indians--may become a nightmarish reality . . .
Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry(update on remnant of Jacob)
- Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/8/2006 7:41:21 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormonism & Freemasonry(update on remnant of Jacob) Blainerb: The Lord's words never cease--he is the same yesterday, today and forever. Look in your Bible. The words of the Lord never ceased, except to fulfill the prophecy of Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord." This happened during the dark ages, when even the written word was in a dead language--Latin--and the only prophecies heard were those made by astrologers and the like--from uninspired lips. But as the scriptures were translated into native languages and were printed for the masses, the famine began to come to an end. cd: No Blaine respectfully, you are wrong- This happen from Malachi to Matthew as there was over 400 years of silence from heaven as foretold in Isaiah 53:2 ... as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground...Then John came forth to proclaim the coming of Christ to prepare the way for him. Who prepared the way for J. Smith? What was his name ? What did he say?Tell me so I too can learn? But when more of the word of the Lord than what had been theretofore printed came to light, the preachers of the day rejected it--"A Bible, A Bible, we have a Bible and we need no more Bible," they said, and they continue to say it today. They say it for gain. The Lord's work, which like his word never ceases, does not pay well if the clergy are laymen, which they are in the Lord's church, and which they were in the original church. They went out without purse or script--no money, no big salaries. You are a deceived people. You are deceived by your ministers, who preach for gain. cd: I am a minister of God's word and nobody has ever paid me -but through the years people have given me money while on on the street and a couple of times after I preached in Churches-to which I told them I do not charge for preaching and took the money-upon their insistence- after they clearly understood it would be used to feed the brethren on some preaching event-and to allow those who give to receive a blessing-and to the best of my memory it was used for that. I know many more who do likewise Blaine-David M I suspect would do likewise.Jesus gave us freely we are told to do the same. In SLC in a freezing rain I once was given an umbrella by a Mormon who clearly hated my guts-to which I took it and said thank you as He angry walked off in the rain. I then turned and gave it to a women who was wet and cold and she was delighted and i told her to give God the thanks. Who did the greater good Blaine? The one with the hard giving heart or me as I still delight in the women's smile ? By the way, the word of God is enough for me and I need no more bible but the world needs more of what is in Christ's/my bible for that Grace alone is sufficient as Christ told Paul in 2Cor. 12:9-why do I need more. I offer that grace to you Blaine just take a step in that direction and the rest will take care of itself-Just a little faith in Christ alone is enough.