Re: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
- Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/16/2006 9:13:51 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Excellent points Dean And you are not trying to cut Him up into different exclusive pieces - Hallelujah to King Jesus!! cd: Hallelujah and may His name be lifted above all other men and all things in heaven and the earth!!:-)
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
I am a son of God by way of my adoption in Christ. I do feel a kinship to him, as he is my Kinsmen Redeemer -- on Mary's side of the family :) Bill - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:32 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE I took him to be asking if I think I will ever be divine; i.e., a God myselfDAVEH: No..That's not quite what I was asking, Bill. I realize you don't feel a divine kinship to God, but I assume you believe you are a son of God. I'm trying to find out what that means to you. (As you know, I have a much different perspective, and I'm trying to understand your contrasting view of what it means to be a son of God.)Taylor wrote: Well then you answer him, Miller :) I took him to be asking if I think I will ever be divine; i.e., a God myself. I do not. If you think otherwise, then enlighten me too. - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 7:03 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Dave Hansen makes an excellent point here. I hope you will be able to respond, Bill. I have many passages in the back of my mind that would support Dave Hansen on this point. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:49 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE He is God and we are not. DAVEH: In a previous post, you had answered No. when I asked you if you believe we have divine roots. I realize that we are not God, but yet I believe there is a relationship we can have with God that encourages us to become like him. I assume you do not recognize that relationshipis that correct? So, how do you perceive becoming one of the sons of God.do you believe you fit into that category, Bill? And if so, what does it mean to you? Taylor wrote: DHSo.what do you perceive to be the limitations that prevent us from becoming like God? He is God and we are not. Bill - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE DAVEH As you know, the LDS believe that mortals can become like God. I assume you agree with the following. We can become perfect (in a complete sense) like God. We can know the difference between good and evil. We can become one with him, as he (Jesus) is one with his Father. We will eventually be resurrected like him. So.what do you perceive to be the limitations that prevent us from becoming like God? Taylor wrote: If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ while walking this earth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I amIfrom above: ye are of this world;I amnot of this world. Adam Clark wrote: Joh 8:23 - Ye are from beneath - Ye are capable of murder, and of self-murder too, because ye have nothing of God in you. Ye are altogether earthly, sensual, and devilish. They verified this character in murdering the Lord Jesus; and many of them afterwards, to escape famine, etc., put an end to their own lives.
[TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:28:47 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I can change while living under the Old Law, Judy - No you can not JD; a leopard can not change it's spots; your old nasty nature will still be the same. a law, by the way which is complete with sin offerings -- both deliberate and sins of ignorance. I don't Christ for forgivenss and direction. I have the law. You know better JD, in fact you are ready to pitch the law to the curb, you are a rabid antinomian. Shame on you for building another straw man on TT So tellme -- what advantage is there in Christianity. I am starting to think you are correct. The above is nothing more than a bold faced lie... You couldn't be hit with the water hose JD. Jesus only appeared as a human, but really wans't. And He once was God but forfeited that existence and essence and position and power so that He could become something similar to a man. The above construct comes from an over active imagination... someone with ADHD And why is that? I mean, we have instruction and forgiveness with the Law. It came from God - who doesn't make mistakes -- so what purpose is there in the almost man , Jesus christ, who wasn't God on earth so that He could almost Man on earth? Where am I going wrong , here?jd You need to repent for trashing Lance's doctrine and go ask him how to get assumed JD. -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] He died so that you could change and be part of a New Creation in Him JD If you are so proud of your old nasty sinner self then it's all yours but it won't go to heaven On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 07:52:14 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy versus the Bible: Really? This is "another gospel" entirely - to claim that God just loves old nastyfallen and mean humanity so much that He can't do without each and every onein the same heaven he cast the devil they are in cahoots with out of? For God so loved the WORLD He died for us WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS. -- Original message -- From: "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy, there is no communicating with you, as you don't even realize that we are in agreement on much of what you present for rebuttals. Please just stay where you are. I'll leave, Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 12:52 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOTDIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:35:51 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It is humanity which Christ came to save, Judy. He did that by assuming human likeness. What scripture do you base the above on Bill?The same one from Hebrews? He was raised as well a human, Judy, and sits at his Father's side: a human being. So now you claim that a transformed body without blood that is able to walk through walls is in the likeness ofour human bodiesBill? We will be resurrected human, as well --no longer with flesh and blood tainted body's but with resurrected bodies; bodies all-the-more human, Judy --not un-human. Really? This is "another gospel" entirely - to claim that God just loves old nastyfallen and mean humanity so much that He can't do without each and every onein the same heaven he cast the devil they are in cahoots with out of? Do you cut out allthe scriptures that teach us the earthy is earthy so we must be born into a New Creation and have a completeoverhaul to be fit for heaven: Our minds must be renewed (Rom 12:2) Our souls need to be saved by the engrafted word (James 1:21) Our bodies must be transformed at the last trump (1 Cor 15:52) Chsh, That's what I say ... Judyt Bill From: Judy Taylor On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 10:04:41
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
- Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 4:04:18 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE So that I know for sure what you mean to convey, let me ask you: do you as a human have "divine thoughts"? Bill cd: Yes to a limited degree-but I cannot hold the perspective that Christ is limited in His divine thinking.I realize that the flesh would influence one thinking to my limited 'divine 'thoughts but with Christ who walked according to the Spirit I see no limitations. Nor do I admit there has to be such weakness in us as we also have the Spirit-We simply are not willing to pray and fast and abstain from things as one should to weaken this flesh and hence allow more diviness to control us. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:40 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE cd: Yes we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 1:53:48 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:34 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 6:49:49 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Dean:I'd ask of you what I asked of DM, namely, outline your own position regarding 'who Jesus is' rather than just picking around the edges of other's comments concerning 'who Jesus is'. JUST WHICH JESUS DO YOU SPEAK OF WHEN SPing? cd: I believe that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the son of God who came to earth to first teach us a more correct way (truth) and then to die on a tree for the sins of the whole world to pay God redemption price for mankind. He was divine in words, nature, and character. He was God who gave up dwelling as a spirit to take on a lower form in order to die as a spirit cannot die but the flesh can.After death He still exists in the form of a body but not one of flesh (corruption)as the price paid forever marked him also-to I believe towards his eternal glory as we will view those marks in his body. I don't believe it to be possible that God would cease to exist in his spirit nature so while he was in earthly form He had to also exist in heavenly form. This mediator (go between God and man)must exist in both forms in order to relate one to the other. In other words Christ knows what we are capable in doing and what we are capable of overcoming-therefore there will be no excuse.I hope this helps y ou understand my beliefs Lance. --- Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 17:42 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 10:07:54 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Divine = God cd: Lance Webster puts it this way-Note that Christ fits many of the below definitions. DIVINE, a. [L., a god.] 1. Pertaining to the true God; as the divine nature; divine perfections. 2. Pertaining to a heathen deity, or to false gods. 3. Partaking of the nature of God. Half human, half divine. 4. Proceeding from God; as divine judgments. 5. Godlike; heavenly; excellent in the highest degree; extraordinary; apparently above what is human. In this application the word admits of comparison; as a divine invention; a divine genius; the divinest mind. A divine sentence is in the lips of the king. Prov 16. 6. Presageful; foreboding; prescient. [Not used.] 7. Appropriated to God, or celebrating his praise; as divine service; divine songs; divine worship. DIVINE, n. 1. A minister of the gospel; a priest; a clergyman. The first divines of New England were surpassed by none in extensive erudition, personal sanctity, and diligence in the pastoral office. 2. A man skilled in divinity; a theologian; as a great divine. DIVINE, v.t. [L.] 1. To foreknow; to foretell; to presage. Darst thou divine his downfall? 2. To deify. [Not in use.] DIVINE, v.i. 1. To use or practice divination. 2. To utter presages or prognostications. The prophets thereof divine for money. Micah 3. 3. To have presages or forebodings. Suggest but truth to my divining thoughts-- 4. To guess or conjecture. Could you divine what
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
- Original Message - From: To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 6:46:02 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Dean's a Momma's boy--eh? cd:-)
[TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
I am speaking of two natures and the idea that "the humanity of Christ was not divine" James wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the double minded or double souled person is unstable in all of his ways... I don't accept the idea that Jesus had two natures. My belief is that although he layed aside the glory he had with the father, he was born with a divine (holy) nature. and experienced our human nature along with all of its falleness when he took it upon himself at the cross. The other side of the same coin though is that we become partakers of the divine nature when we receive Him as a covenant partner and agree to walk after the Spirit learning His will and His ways. On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:24:10 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Judy Taylor Dean, I think this is where "theology" gets itself tied in knots. This is what JD has been accusing me of for so long. Howironic that his mentor Bill would write something like this. I think Lance just repeated it to qualify something. So their Jesus must have a schism in his personality (or nature). What about his saying to Philip"If you have seen meyou have seen the Father" We know he wasn't speaking of his physical body here; so does God The Father also have a schismatic personality. cd: Judy can you define your usage of 'schismatic'. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:59:08 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, yes and no, DH. I am included in that circle oflove in the way that Christ's humanity is included in that relationship. Butas the humanity of Christ is not divine, neitheram I divine. cd: Lance at this point-How do you define "Divine"?
Re: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
IFF you are incorrect on this matter then, 'all truth' does NOT include this rather central and rather important matter concerning 'who Jesus is'. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 16, 2006 08:26 Subject: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE I am speaking of two natures and the idea that "the humanity of Christ was not divine" James wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the double minded or double souled person is unstable in all of his ways... I don't accept the idea that Jesus had two natures. My belief is that although he layed aside the glory he had with the father, he was born with a divine (holy) nature. and experienced our human nature along with all of its falleness when he took it upon himself at the cross. The other side of the same coin though is that we become partakers of the divine nature when we receive Him as a covenant partner and agree to walk after the Spirit learning His will and His ways. On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:24:10 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Judy Taylor Dean, I think this is where "theology" gets itself tied in knots. This is what JD has been accusing me of for so long. Howironic that his mentor Bill would write something like this. I think Lance just repeated it to qualify something. So their Jesus must have a schism in his personality (or nature). What about his saying to Philip"If you have seen meyou have seen the Father" We know he wasn't speaking of his physical body here; so does God The Father also have a schismatic personality. cd: Judy can you define your usage of 'schismatic'. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:59:08 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, yes and no, DH. I am included in that circle oflove in the way that Christ's humanity is included in that relationship. Butas the humanity of Christ is not divine, neitheram I divine. cd: Lance at this point-How do you define "Divine"?
Re: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Being human is being "made a little lower than the angels" I does not of necessity have to include a "fallen human nature" which is what is implied when one says that His humanity was not divine. How one can take such a stand on Jesus being God and ATST say his humanity was not divine is beyond me in light of what His Own Word says about being "double souled" - unless what is meant by "humanity" is the physical body without the soul. On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:32:07 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IFF you are incorrect on this matter then, 'all truth' does NOT include this rather central and rather important matter concerning 'who Jesus is'. From: Judy Taylor I am speaking of two natures and the idea that "the humanity of Christ was not divine" James wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the double minded or double souled person is unstable in all of his ways... I don't accept the idea that Jesus had two natures. My belief is that although he layed aside the glory he had with the father, he was born with a divine (holy) nature. and experienced our human nature along with all of its falleness when he took it upon himself at the cross. The other side of the same coin though is that we become partakers of the divine nature when we receive Him as a covenant partner and agree to walk after the Spirit learning His will and His ways. On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:24:10 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Judy Taylor Dean, I think this is where "theology" gets itself tied in knots. This is what JD has been accusing me of for so long. Howironic that his mentor Bill would write something like this. I think Lance just repeated it to qualify something. So their Jesus must have a schism in his personality (or nature). What about his saying to Philip"If you have seen meyou have seen the Father" We know he wasn't speaking of his physical body here; so does God The Father also have a schismatic personality. cd: Judy can you define your usage of 'schismatic'. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:59:08 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, yes and no, DH. I am included in that circle oflove in the way that Christ's humanity is included in that relationship. Butas the humanity of Christ is not divine, neitheram I divine. cd: Lance at this point-How do you define "Divine"?
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Dave Hansen makes an excellent point here. I hope you will be able to respond, Bill. I have many passages in the back of my mind that would support Dave Hansen on this point. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:49 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE He is God and we are not. DAVEH: In a previous post, you had answered No. when I asked you if you believe we have divine roots. I realize that we are not God, but yet I believe there is a relationship we can have with God that encourages us to become like him. I assume you do not recognize that relationshipis that correct? So, how do you perceive becoming one of the sons of God.do you believe you fit into that category, Bill? And if so, what does it mean to you? Taylor wrote: DHSo.what do you perceive to be the limitations that prevent us from becoming like God? He is God and we are not. Bill - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE DAVEH As you know, the LDS believe that mortals can become like God. I assume you agree with the following. We can become perfect (in a complete sense) like God. We can know the difference between good and evil. We can become one with him, as he (Jesus) is one with his Father. We will eventually be resurrected like him. So.what do you perceive to be the limitations that prevent us from becoming like God? Taylor wrote: If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ while walking this earth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
- Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/16/2006 8:27:21 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE I am speaking of two natures and the idea that "the humanity of Christ was not divine" James wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the double minded or double souled person is unstable in all of his ways... I don't accept the idea that Jesus had two natures. cd: I also don't believe that Christ had two natures in who He was. JamesI think is speaking of one nature of a sinning person and another nature of Godliness. The two do not belong together as we cannot serve two masters. What I do believe is that Christ was of divine nature but also had to contend with ( a drawing towards sin)-as we do-with the flesh nature(ie temptations).This is why I perceive Him as "seeking God with strong tears and crying and was heard in thatHe feared God".With Him the flesh nature didn't stand a chance in it opposition to the divine because of Godly fear which is being forgotten in out modern end time teaching which is seeped in Agustin/Calvinism. Nor can it with us because of Christ's experiences-if we put God first in all things we can remain without sin(ing). My belief is that although he layed aside the glory he had with the father, he was born with a divine (holy) nature. and experienced our human nature along with all of its falleness when he took it upon himself at the cross. The other side of the same coin though is that we become partakers of the divine nature when we receive Him as a covenant partner and agree to walk after the Spirit learning His will and His ways. cd: Good we agree Judy. On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:24:10 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Judy Taylor Dean, I think this is where "theology" gets itself tied in knots. This is what JD has been accusing me of for so long. Howironic that his mentor Bill would write something like this. I think Lance just repeated it to qualify something. So their Jesus must have a schism in his personality (or nature). What about his saying to Philip"If you have seen meyou have seen the Father" We know he wasn't speaking of his physical body here; so does God The Father also have a schismatic personality. cd: Judy can you define your usage of 'schismatic'. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:59:08 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, yes and no, DH. I am included in that circle oflove in the way that Christ's humanity is included in that relationship. Butas the humanity of Christ is not divine, neitheram I divine. cd: Lance at this point-How do you define "Divine"?
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
I was just wanting to betterunderstand whatyou were wanting me to agree with in your statement: we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. Having read your response I am comfortable that we can agree. The word "preoccupied" has a ring to it with which I am not completely satisfied, but I believe the man Jesus was preoccupied with doing the will of his heavenly Father; hence his thought-life was fully intuned to the divine. If you had responded by saying that the man Jesus did not have a human mind, or a human spirit, or a human soul, then I would have had to disagree; for then he would not have been like us in every way (cf. Heb 2.17). And, while I understood what you were saying, I also hesitate to speak of the person of Christ in terms of "parts": if he is fully human and fully divine, then he is not partly one and partly the other. Anyway, I knew what you meant and could thus look through it. Thanks, Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore - Original Message - From: Taylor So that I know for sure what you mean to convey, let me ask you: do you as a human have "divine thoughts"? Bill cd: Yes to a limited degree-but I cannot hold the perspective that Christ is limited in His divine thinking.I realize that the flesh would influence one thinking to my limited 'divine 'thoughts but with Christ who walked according to the Spirit I see no limitations. Nor do I admit there has to be such weakness in us as we also have the Spirit-We simply are not willing to pray and fast and abstain from things as one should to weaken this flesh and hence allow more diviness to control us. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore cd: Yes we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. - Original Message - From: Taylor If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:16:00 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was just wanting to betterunderstand whatyou were wanting me to agree with in your statement: we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. Having read your response I am comfortable that we can agree. The word "preoccupied" has a ring to it with which I am not completely satisfied, but I believe the man Jesus was preoccupied with doing the will of his heavenly Father; hence his thought-life was fully intuned to the divine. If you had responded by saying that the man Jesus did not have a human mind, or a human spirit, or a human soul, then I would have had to disagree; for then he would not have been like us in every way (cf. Heb 2.17). Like us is "similitude" Bill - it does not mean exactly the "same as" Every human being born by procreation into this fallen world is also fallen. There is none righteous and none that does good EXCEPT ONE. And, while I understood what you were saying, I also hesitate to speak of the person of Christ in terms of "parts": if he is fully human and fully divine, then he is not partly one and partly the other. Anyway, I knew what you meant and could thus look through it. Thanks, Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore - Original Message - From: Taylor So that I know for sure what you mean to convey, let me ask you: do you as a human have "divine thoughts"? Bill cd: Yes to a limited degree-but I cannot hold the perspective that Christ is limited in His divine thinking.I realize that the flesh would influence one thinking to my limited 'divine 'thoughts but with Christ who walked according to the Spirit I see no limitations. Nor do I admit there has to be such weakness in us as we also have the Spirit-We simply are not willing to pray and fast and abstain from things as one should to weaken this flesh and hence allow more diviness to control us. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore cd: Yes we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. - Original Message - From: Taylor If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Been there, done that, Judy. I'm not interested in doing it again. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 8:14 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:16:00 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was just wanting to betterunderstand whatyou were wanting me to agree with in your statement: we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. Having read your response I am comfortable that we can agree. The word "preoccupied" has a ring to it with which I am not completely satisfied, but I believe the man Jesus was preoccupied with doing the will of his heavenly Father; hence his thought-life was fully intuned to the divine. If you had responded by saying that the man Jesus did not have a human mind, or a human spirit, or a human soul, then I would have had to disagree; for then he would not have been like us in every way (cf. Heb 2.17). Like us is "similitude" Bill - it does not mean exactly the "same as" Every human being born by procreation into this fallen world is also fallen. There is none righteous and none that does good EXCEPT ONE. And, while I understood what you were saying, I also hesitate to speak of the person of Christ in terms of "parts": if he is fully human and fully divine, then he is not partly one and partly the other. Anyway, I knew what you meant and could thus look through it. Thanks, Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore - Original Message - From: Taylor So that I know for sure what you mean to convey, let me ask you: do you as a human have "divine thoughts"? Bill cd: Yes to a limited degree-but I cannot hold the perspective that Christ is limited in His divine thinking.I realize that the flesh would influence one thinking to my limited 'divine 'thoughts but with Christ who walked according to the Spirit I see no limitations. Nor do I admit there has to be such weakness in us as we also have the Spirit-We simply are not willing to pray and fast and abstain from things as one should to weaken this flesh and hence allow more diviness to control us. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore cd: Yes we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. - Original Message - From: Taylor If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Then apparently you never have gotten the issue resolved in your own mind and heart On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:05:12 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Been there, done that, Judy. I'm not interested in doing it again. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 8:14 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:16:00 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was just wanting to betterunderstand whatyou were wanting me to agree with in your statement: we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. Having read your response I am comfortable that we can agree. The word "preoccupied" has a ring to it with which I am not completely satisfied, but I believe the man Jesus was preoccupied with doing the will of his heavenly Father; hence his thought-life was fully intuned to the divine. If you had responded by saying that the man Jesus did not have a human mind, or a human spirit, or a human soul, then I would have had to disagree; for then he would not have been like us in every way (cf. Heb 2.17). Like us is "similitude" Bill - it does not mean exactly the "same as" Every human being born by procreation into this fallen world is also fallen. There is none righteous and none that does good EXCEPT ONE. And, while I understood what you were saying, I also hesitate to speak of the person of Christ in terms of "parts": if he is fully human and fully divine, then he is not partly one and partly the other. Anyway, I knew what you meant and could thus look through it. Thanks, Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore - Original Message - From: Taylor So that I know for sure what you mean to convey, let me ask you: do you as a human have "divine thoughts"? Bill cd: Yes to a limited degree-but I cannot hold the perspective that Christ is limited in His divine thinking.I realize that the flesh would influence one thinking to my limited 'divine 'thoughts but with Christ who walked according to the Spirit I see no limitations. Nor do I admit there has to be such weakness in us as we also have the Spirit-We simply are not willing to pray and fast and abstain from things as one should to weaken this flesh and hence allow more diviness to control us. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore cd: Yes we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. - Original Message - From: Taylor If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
If you had responded by saying that the man Jesus did not have a human mind, or a human spirit, or a human soul, then I would have had to disagree; for then he would not have been like us in every way (cf. Heb 2.17). Like us is "similitude" Bill - it does not mean exactly the "same as" Every human being born by procreation into this fallen world is also fallen. There is none righteous and none that does good EXCEPT ONE. Judy argues "like us" in total disregard of the additional phrase "IN EVERY WAY" -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:16:00 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was just wanting to betterunderstand whatyou were wanting me to agree with in your statement: we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. Having read your response I am comfortable that we can agree. The word "preoccupied" has a ring to it with which I am not completely satisfied, but I believe the man Jesus was preoccupied with doing the will of his heavenly Father; hence his thought-life was fully intuned to the divine. If you had responded by saying that the man Jesus did not have a human mind, or a human spirit, or a human soul, then I would have had to disagree; for then he would not have been like us in every way (cf. Heb 2.17). Like us is "similitude" Bill - it does not mean exactly the "same as" Every human being born by procreation into this fallen world is also fallen. There is none righteous and none that does good EXCEPT ONE. And, while I understood what you were saying, I also hesitate to speak of the person of Christ in terms of "parts": if he is fully human and fully divine, then he is not partly one and partly the other. Anyway, I knew what you meant and could thus look through it. Thanks, Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore - Original Message - From: Taylor So that I know for sure what you mean to convey, let me ask you: do you as a human have "divine thoughts"? Bill cd: Yes to a limited degree-but I cannot hold the perspective that Christ is limited in His divine thinking.I realize that the flesh would influence one thinking to my limited 'divine 'thoughts but with Christ who walked according to the Spirit I see no limitations. Nor do I admit there has to be such weakness in us as we also have the Spirit-We simply are not willing to pray and fast and abstain from things as one should to weaken this flesh and hence allow more diviness to control us. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore cd: Yes we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. - Original Message - From: Taylor If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Only a similitude or likeness even "in every way" is not the exact same thing JD. On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:12:30 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you had responded by saying that the man Jesus did not have a human mind, or a human spirit, or a human soul, then I would have had to disagree; for then he would not have been like us in every way (cf. Heb 2.17). Like us is "similitude" Bill - it does not mean exactly the "same as" Every human being born by procreation into this fallen world is also fallen. There is none righteous and none that does good EXCEPT ONE. Judy argues "like us" in total disregard of the additional phrase "IN EVERY WAY" -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:16:00 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was just wanting to betterunderstand whatyou were wanting me to agree with in your statement: we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. Having read your response I am comfortable that we can agree. The word "preoccupied" has a ring to it with which I am not completely satisfied, but I believe the man Jesus was preoccupied with doing the will of his heavenly Father; hence his thought-life was fully intuned to the divine. If you had responded by saying that the man Jesus did not have a human mind, or a human spirit, or a human soul, then I would have had to disagree; for then he would not have been like us in every way (cf. Heb 2.17). Like us is "similitude" Bill - it does not mean exactly the "same as" Every human being born by procreation into this fallen world is also fallen. There is none righteous and none that does good EXCEPT ONE. And, while I understood what you were saying, I also hesitate to speak of the person of Christ in terms of "parts": if he is fully human and fully divine, then he is not partly one and partly the other. Anyway, I knew what you meant and could thus look through it. Thanks, Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore - Original Message - From: Taylor So that I know for sure what you mean to convey, let me ask you: do you as a human have "divine thoughts"? Bill cd: Yes to a limited degree-but I cannot hold the perspective that Christ is limited in His divine thinking.I realize that the flesh would influence one thinking to my limited 'divine 'thoughts but with Christ who walked according to the Spirit I see no limitations. Nor do I admit there has to be such weakness in us as we also have the Spirit-We simply are not willing to pray and fast and abstain from things as one should to weaken this flesh and hence allow more diviness to control us. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore cd: Yes we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. - Original Message - From: Taylor If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Well then you answer him, Miller :) I took him to be asking if I think I will ever be divine; i.e., a God myself. I do not. If you think otherwise, then enlighten me too. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 7:03 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Dave Hansen makes an excellent point here. I hope you will be able to respond, Bill. I have many passages in the back of my mind that would support Dave Hansen on this point. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:49 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE He is God and we are not. DAVEH: In a previous post, you had answered No. when I asked you if you believe we have divine roots. I realize that we are not God, but yet I believe there is a relationship we can have with God that encourages us to become like him. I assume you do not recognize that relationshipis that correct? So, how do you perceive becoming one of the sons of God.do you believe you fit into that category, Bill? And if so, what does it mean to you? Taylor wrote: DHSo.what do you perceive to be the limitations that prevent us from becoming like God? He is God and we are not. Bill - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE DAVEH As you know, the LDS believe that mortals can become like God. I assume you agree with the following. We can become perfect (in a complete sense) like God. We can know the difference between good and evil. We can become one with him, as he (Jesus) is one with his Father. We will eventually be resurrected like him. So.what do you perceive to be the limitations that prevent us from becoming like God? Taylor wrote: If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ while walking this earth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:29:01 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their nature and character spiritually - which "likeness" Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into disobedience by eating the wrong fruit. Thereafter all men (including us) are borninto this world by procreation in the likeness of the first Adam rather than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3) The only possible way to regainthe image of God lost by the first Adam is to become conformed to the image of the second Adam which is the sole purpose for His coming and His willingness to lay down His human lifeas a perfect sacrifice in our place. Laying aside the fact that you are making much too much of Seth having been born in the image of Adam (see Gen 9.6 and answer for me what would be wrong, then, with killing someone who was no longer created in God's image, but in Adam's), At the beginnign they were created in God's image and now Noah who found grace is starting over even though it didn't take too many generations for the whole of humanity (all but 8 ppl) to be destroyed. I don't believe God is interested in fellowshipping with a bunch of devils. Judy, I fail to understand why that should even prevent Christ from being united in his person, his humanness with his divinity. I understand. It is mixture; joining the holy with the profane which is something God hates. The only thing which could have severed that union was the one thing which he did not do: sin. Hence in his person, he was able to undo that which had indeed produced schizophrenia in the relationship between humanity and God. Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, the one who was created? Jesus was not exactly procreated like us since he had no human father so that must mess up your thesis at least a little. And were he not like us in every way, he could not have produced this reconciliation; for what he would have done in a flesh unlike our own would have had no bearing upon human flesh, and we would therefore still be in sin. Bill Not so; all he had to do was meet God's conditions which apparently involved passing the test that AE failed and he did that in the wilderness... right after his baptism. From: Judy Taylor On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:57:12 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their nature and character spiritually - which "likeness" Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into disobedience by eating the wrong fruit. Thereafter all men (including us) are borninto this world by procreation in the likeness of the first Adam rather than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3) The only possible way to regainthe image of God lost by the first Adam is to become conformed to the image of the second Adam which is the sole purpose for His coming and His willingness to lay down His human lifeas a perfect sacrifice in our place. . From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 9:31 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOTDIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:29:22 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OK - I'm asking Bill, what husband, and what schism? Oh, I thought you were married. The bible says that you and your husband (if you had one) were to become "one" flesh, in other words the two of you in coming together would be united -- and not just physically, I might add; it is the marriage "union" after all. The same is true with God. The bible teaches that the Lord is "one" and it uses the same word when saying this; hence there is a oneness or unity within the nature of God, a coming together of a pluralityin union. God is a Spirit (Jn 4:24) so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Sure the Godhead are One and united in Spirit. And so, since you suggested that if Christ be
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
I understand. It is mixture; joining the holy with the profane which is something God hates. No, it is not a mixture, Judy; it is a union. There is no confusion.And that is your problem: you have a Jesus that is partly this and partly that, but can't be what he came to save. Yours is a mixture, Judy, a demigod, a hybrid, an alloy, Hermes morphing into Aphrodite --I don't know. But it is not Jesus Christ the Son of God, son of Mary. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:29:01 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their nature and character spiritually - which "likeness" Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into disobedience by eating the wrong fruit. Thereafter all men (including us) are borninto this world by procreation in the likeness of the first Adam rather than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3) The only possible way to regainthe image of God lost by the first Adam is to become conformed to the image of the second Adam which is the sole purpose for His coming and His willingness to lay down His human lifeas a perfect sacrifice in our place. Laying aside the fact that you are making much too much of Seth having been born in the image of Adam (see Gen 9.6 and answer for me what would be wrong, then, with killing someone who was no longer created in God's image, but in Adam's), At the beginnign they were created in God's image and now Noah who found grace is starting over even though it didn't take too many generations for the whole of humanity (all but 8 ppl) to be destroyed. I don't believe God is interested in fellowshipping with a bunch of devils. Judy, I fail to understand why that should even prevent Christ from being united in his person, his humanness with his divinity. I understand. It is mixture; joining the holy with the profane which is something God hates. The only thing which could have severed that union was the one thing which he did not do: sin. Hence in his person, he was able to undo that which had indeed produced schizophrenia in the relationship between humanity and God. Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, the one who was created? Jesus was not exactly procreated like us since he had no human father so that must mess up your thesis at least a little. And were he not like us in every way, he could not have produced this reconciliation; for what he would have done in a flesh unlike our own would have had no bearing upon human flesh, and we would therefore still be in sin. Bill Not so; all he had to do was meet God's conditions which apparently involved passing the test that AE failed and he did that in the wilderness... right after his baptism. From: Judy Taylor On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:57:12 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their nature and character spiritually - which "likeness" Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into disobedience by eating the wrong fruit. Thereafter all men (including us) are borninto this world by procreation in the likeness of the first Adam rather than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3) The only possible way to regainthe image of God lost by the first Adam is to become conformed to the image of the second Adam which is the sole purpose for His coming and His willingness to lay down His human lifeas a perfect sacrifice in our place. . From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 9:31 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOTDIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:29:22
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, ... Because the first Adam before the fall did not need to be saved Judy. We do. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:29:01 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their nature and character spiritually - which "likeness" Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into disobedience by eating the wrong fruit. Thereafter all men (including us) are borninto this world by procreation in the likeness of the first Adam rather than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3) The only possible way to regainthe image of God lost by the first Adam is to become conformed to the image of the second Adam which is the sole purpose for His coming and His willingness to lay down His human lifeas a perfect sacrifice in our place. Laying aside the fact that you are making much too much of Seth having been born in the image of Adam (see Gen 9.6 and answer for me what would be wrong, then, with killing someone who was no longer created in God's image, but in Adam's), At the beginnign they were created in God's image and now Noah who found grace is starting over even though it didn't take too many generations for the whole of humanity (all but 8 ppl) to be destroyed. I don't believe God is interested in fellowshipping with a bunch of devils. Judy, I fail to understand why that should even prevent Christ from being united in his person, his humanness with his divinity. I understand. It is mixture; joining the holy with the profane which is something God hates. The only thing which could have severed that union was the one thing which he did not do: sin. Hence in his person, he was able to undo that which had indeed produced schizophrenia in the relationship between humanity and God. Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, the one who was created? Jesus was not exactly procreated like us since he had no human father so that must mess up your thesis at least a little. And were he not like us in every way, he could not have produced this reconciliation; for what he would have done in a flesh unlike our own would have had no bearing upon human flesh, and we would therefore still be in sin. Bill Not so; all he had to do was meet God's conditions which apparently involved passing the test that AE failed and he did that in the wilderness... right after his baptism. From: Judy Taylor On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:57:12 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their nature and character spiritually - which "likeness" Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into disobedience by eating the wrong fruit. Thereafter all men (including us) are borninto this world by procreation in the likeness of the first Adam rather than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3) The only possible way to regainthe image of God lost by the first Adam is to become conformed to the image of the second Adam which is the sole purpose for His coming and His willingness to lay down His human lifeas a perfect sacrifice in our place. . From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 9:31 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOTDIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:29:22 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OK - I'm asking Bill, what husband, and what schism? Oh, I thought you were married. The bible says
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Likeness might mean like but not exactly like, but it also might mean so much like it as to be indistinguishable. When we say that Jesus is the image of Father, or that he is like the Father, so much so that when you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father, it might be inappropriate to say that Jesus is like the Father, but not exactly like him. Do you see it differently, Judy? David Miller. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:17 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Only a similitude or likeness even in every way is not the exact same thing JD. On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:12:30 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you had responded by saying that the man Jesus did not have a human mind, or a human spirit, or a human soul, then I would have had to disagree; for then he would not have been like us in every way (cf. Heb 2.17). Like us is similitude Bill - it does not mean exactly the same as Every human being born by procreation into this fallen world is also fallen. There is none righteous and none that does good EXCEPT ONE. Judy argues like us in total disregard of the additional phrase IN EVERY WAY -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:16:00 -0700 Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was just wanting to better understand what you were wanting me to agree with in your statement: we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. Having read your response I am comfortable that we can agree. The word preoccupied has a ring to it with which I am not completely satisfied, but I believe the man Jesus was preoccupied with doing the will of his heavenly Father; hence his thought-life was fully intuned to the divine. If you had responded by saying that the man Jesus did not have a human mind, or a human spirit, or a human soul, then I would have had to disagree; for then he would not have been like us in every way (cf. Heb 2.17). Like us is similitude Bill - it does not mean exactly the same as Every human being born by procreation into this fallen world is also fallen. There is none righteous and none that does good EXCEPT ONE. And, while I understood what you were saying, I also hesitate to speak of the person of Christ in terms of parts: if he is fully human and fully divine, then he is not partly one and partly the other. Anyway, I knew what you meant and could thus look through it. Thanks, Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore - Original Message - From: Taylor So that I know for sure what you mean to convey, let me ask you: do you as a human have divine thoughts? Bill cd: Yes to a limited degree-but I cannot hold the perspective that Christ is limited in His divine thinking.I realize that the flesh would influence one thinking to my limited 'divine 'thoughts but with Christ who walked according to the Spirit I see no limitations. Nor do I admit there has to be such weakness in us as we also have the Spirit-We simply are not willing to pray and fast and abstain from things as one should to weaken this flesh and hence allow more diviness to control us. - Original Message - From: Dean Moore cd: Yes we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. - Original Message - From: Taylor If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ while walking this earth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 12:22:24 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I understand. It is mixture; joining the holy with the profane which is something God hates. No, it is not a mixture, Judy; it is a union. Hate to have to break it to you like this Bill but there are some things Jesus will not be unified with because the Father is holy and so is He; so someone is going to have to do some adjusting here. There is no confusion. I am not confused ... No. And that is your problem: you have a Jesus that is partly this and partly that, but can't be what he came to save. The only difference between my Jesus and yours Bill is that mine is pure and holy and yours is not because you are determined to makeHimconform to our (fallen human) image. Yours is a mixture, Judy, No Bill; mine is pure and holy - the exact imagine of God the Father. My Jesus, unlike yours, could say in truth "If you have seen me you have seen the Father" - So let God be true and every man a liar. a demigod, a hybrid, an alloy, Hermes morphing into Aphrodite --I don't know. Neither do I Bill. When you have mixture you don't know what you've got do you?? But it is not Jesus Christ the Son of God, son of Mary. Bill I know because Jesus Christ, Son of God, son of Mary was the pure and holy Son of God who took upon Himself the FORM of man so that He could bring to us salvation's plan which sadly many wrest to their own destruction.. From: Judy Taylor On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:29:01 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their nature and character spiritually - which "likeness" Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into disobedience by eating the wrong fruit. Thereafter all men (including us) are borninto this world by procreation in the likeness of the first Adam rather than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3) The only possible way to regainthe image of God lost by the first Adam is to become conformed to the image of the second Adam which is the sole purpose for His coming and His willingness to lay down His human lifeas a perfect sacrifice in our place. Laying aside the fact that you are making much too much of Seth having been born in the image of Adam (see Gen 9.6 and answer for me what would be wrong, then, with killing someone who was no longer created in God's image, but in Adam's), At the beginnign they were created in God's image and now Noah who found grace is starting over even though it didn't take too many generations for the whole of humanity (all but 8 ppl) to be destroyed. I don't believe God is interested in fellowshipping with a bunch of devils. Judy, I fail to understand why that should even prevent Christ from being united in his person, his humanness with his divinity. I understand. It is mixture; joining the holy with the profane which is something God hates. The only thing which could have severed that union was the one thing which he did not do: sin. Hence in his person, he was able to undo that which had indeed produced schizophrenia in the relationship between humanity and God. Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, the one who was created? Jesus was not exactly procreated like us since he had no human father so that must mess up your thesis at least a little. And were he not like us in every way, he could not have produced this reconciliation; for what he would have done in a flesh unlike our own would have had no bearing upon human flesh, and we would therefore still be in sin. Bill Not so; all he had to do was meet God's conditions which apparently involved passing the test that AE failed and he did that in the wilderness... right after his baptism. From: Judy Taylor On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:57:12 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Judy wrote: Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, the one who was created? If Jesus were only like the first Adam and not like the rest of us, then he could only redeem those born of his own loins. In order to redeem mankind, including Adam and Even and all of their descendants, he would have to become one of us. Judy wrote: Jesus was not exactly procreated like us since he had no human father so that must mess up your thesis at least a little. Such does not bother the thesis of the humanity of Jesus one bit. Only if you argue that Jesus did not inherit genetic material from Mary would it be a problem. The Bible gives every indication that Jesus was related to Mary, related to David, related to Abraham, and related to Adam. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Likeness might mean like but not exactly like, but it also might mean so much like it as to be indistinguishable. When we say that Jesus is the image of Father, or that he is like the Father, so much so that when you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father, it might be inappropriate to say that Jesus is like the Father, but not exactly like him. Do you see it differently, Judy? David Miller. I don't know When He walked the earth as a man He was not the Father because He prayed to the Father and when He said these words to Philip ie: "If you have seen me you have seen the Father" (John 14:9) I believe He is referring to the ministry rather than toHimself personallybecause everything He said and did (both works and words) he had first seen the Father saying and doing which heexplains further in John 14:10 and John 5:19. - Original Message - From: Judy TaylorTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:17 AMSubject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Only a similitude or likeness even "in every way" is not the exact same thing JD. On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:12:30 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:If you had responded by saying that the man Jesus did not have a human mind, or a human spirit, or a human soul, then I would have had to disagree; for then he would not have been like us in every way (cf. Heb 2.17). Like us is "similitude" Bill - it does not mean exactly the "same as" Every human being born by procreation into this fallen worldis also fallen. There is none righteous and none that does good EXCEPT ONE. Judy argues "like us" in total disregard of the additional phrase "IN EVERY WAY" -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:16:00 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:I was just wanting to better understand what you were wanting me to agree with in your statement: we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. Having read your response I am comfortable that we can agree. The word "preoccupied" has a ring to it with which I am not completely satisfied, but I believe the man Jesus was preoccupied with doing the will of his heavenly Father; hence his thought-life was fully intuned to the divine. If you had responded by saying that the man Jesus did not have a human mind, or a human spirit, or a human soul, then I would have had to disagree; for then he would not have been like us in every way (cf. Heb 2.17). Like us is "similitude" Bill - it does not mean exactly the "same as" Every human being born by procreation into this fallen worldis also fallen. There is none righteous and none that does good EXCEPT ONE. And, while I understood what you were saying, I also hesitate to speak of the person of Christ in terms of "parts": if he is fully human and fully divine, then he is not partly one and partly the other. Anyway, I knew what you meant and could thus look through it. Thanks, Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore- Original Message - From: Taylor So that I know for sure what you mean to convey, let me ask you: do you as a human have "divine thoughts"? Billcd: Yes to a limited degree-but I cannot hold the perspective that Christ is limited in His divine thinking.I realize that the flesh would influence one thinking to my limited 'divine 'thoughts but with Christ who walked according to the Spirit I see no limitations. Nor do I admit there has to be such weakness in us as we also have the Spirit-We simply are not willing to pray and fast and abstain from things as one should to weaken this flesh and hence allow more diviness to control us.- Original Message - From: Dean Moore cd: Yes we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts.- Original Message - From: Taylor If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ while walking this earth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
cd: Good point Bill. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/16/2006 2:15:05 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, ... Because the first Adam before the fall did not need to be saved Judy. We do. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:29:01 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their nature and character spiritually - which "likeness" Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into disobedience by eating the wrong fruit. Thereafter all men (including us) are borninto this world by procreation in the likeness of the first Adam rather than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3) The only possible way to regainthe image of God lost by the first Adam is to become conformed to the image of the second Adam which is the sole purpose for His coming and His willingness to lay down His human lifeas a perfect sacrifice in our place. Laying aside the fact that you are making much too much of Seth having been born in the image of Adam (see Gen 9.6 and answer for me what would be wrong, then, with killing someone who was no longer created in God's image, but in Adam's), At the beginnign they were created in God's image and now Noah who found grace is starting over even though it didn't take too many generations for the whole of humanity (all but 8 ppl) to be destroyed. I don't believe God is interested in fellowshipping with a bunch of devils. Judy, I fail to understand why that should even prevent Christ from being united in his person, his humanness with his divinity. I understand. It is mixture; joining the holy with the profane which is something God hates. The only thing which could have severed that union was the one thing which he did not do: sin. Hence in his person, he was able to undo that which had indeed produced schizophrenia in the relationship between humanity and God. Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, the one who was created? Jesus was not exactly procreated like us since he had no human father so that must mess up your thesis at least a little. And were he not like us in every way, he could not have produced this reconciliation; for what he would have done in a flesh unlike our own would have had no bearing upon human flesh, and we would therefore still be in sin. Bill Not so; all he had to do was meet God's conditions which apparently involved passing the test that AE failed and he did that in the wilderness... right after his baptism. From: Judy Taylor On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:57:12 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their nature and character spiritually - which "likeness" Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into disobedience by eating the wrong fruit. Thereafter all men (including us) are borninto this world by procreation in the likeness of the first Adam rather than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3) The only possible way to regainthe image of God lost by the first Adam is to become conformed to the image of the second Adam which is the sole purpose for His coming and His willingness to lay down His human lifeas a perfect sacrifice in our place. . From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 9:31 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOTDIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:29:22 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OK - I'm asking Bill, what husband, and what schism? Oh, I thought you were married. The bible says that you and your husband (if you had one) were to become "one" flesh, in other words the two of you in coming together would be united -- and not just physically, I might add; it is the marriage "union" after all. The same is true with God. The bible teaches that the Lord is "one" and it uses the same word when saying this; hence there is a oneness or unity within the nature of God, a coming together of a pluralityin union. God is a Spirit (Jn 4:24) so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Sure the Godhead are One and united in Spirit. And so, since you suggested that if Christ be fully God and fully human there must be a schism, I
[TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Judy wrote: Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like USin every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, the one who was created? If Jesus were only like the first Adam and not like the rest of us, then he could only redeem those born of his own loins. In order to redeem mankind, including Adam and Eve and all of their descendants, he would have to become one of us. Why? What do loins have to do with spsiritual redemption and what it takes to redeem mankind? Hissalvation unlike the covering of bulls and goats is eternalbecause his blood is the blood of the eternal Spirit. (Hebrews 9:14) Judy wrote: Jesus was not exactly procreated like us sincehe had no human father so that must mess upyour thesis at least a little. Such does not bother the thesis of the humanity of Jesus one bit. Only if you argue that Jesus did not inherit genetic material from Mary would it be a problem. The Bible gives every indication that Jesus was related to Mary, related to David, related to Abraham, and related to Adam. Yes I understand the genealogies are important and relevant or they wouldn't be there... but I see their value as more spiritual than biolgical ie: Ishmael was a biolgical son but Isaac the child of Promise. I understand blessings and curses to come down through families generationally in the spiritual sense even though there is a biolgical dimension also. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
There is only one person who is the Father. Clearly, Jesus is describing likeness. Whether you are Trinitarian or Oneness in doctrine concerning the Godhead, the view is that Jesus and the Father are of the same substance. If memory serves me correctly, the Greek word is actually the same as that translated likeness. In other words, in the same way that we speak of the likeness of Christ to Father God, so also we should speak of his likeness to humanity and human flesh. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:25 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Likeness might mean like but not exactly like, but it also might mean so much like it as to be indistinguishable. When we say that Jesus is the image of Father, or that he is like the Father, so much so that when you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father, it might be inappropriate to say that Jesus is like the Father, but not exactly like him. Do you see it differently, Judy? David Miller. I don't know When He walked the earth as a man He was not the Father because He prayed to the Father and when He said these words to Philip ie: "If you have seen me you have seen the Father" (John 14:9) I believe He is referring to the ministry rather than toHimself personallybecause everything He said and did (both works and words) he had first seen the Father saying and doing which heexplains further in John 14:10 and John 5:19. - Original Message - From: Judy TaylorTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:17 AMSubject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Only a similitude or likeness even "in every way" is not the exact same thing JD. On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:12:30 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:If you had responded by saying that the man Jesus did not have a human mind, or a human spirit, or a human soul, then I would have had to disagree; for then he would not have been like us in every way (cf. Heb 2.17). Like us is "similitude" Bill - it does not mean exactly the "same as" Every human being born by procreation into this fallen worldis also fallen. There is none righteous and none that does good EXCEPT ONE. Judy argues "like us" in total disregard of the additional phrase "IN EVERY WAY" -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:16:00 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:I was just wanting to better understand what you were wanting me to agree with in your statement: we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. Having read your response I am comfortable that we can agree. The word "preoccupied" has a ring to it with which I am not completely satisfied, but I believe the man Jesus was preoccupied with doing the will of his heavenly Father; hence his thought-life was fully intuned to the divine. If you had responded by saying that the man Jesus did not have a human mind, or a human spirit, or a human soul, then I would have had to disagree; for then he would not have been like us in every way (cf. Heb 2.17). Like us is "similitude" Bill - it does not mean exactly the "same as" Every human being born by procreation into this fallen worldis also fallen. There is none righteous and none that does good EXCEPT ONE. And, while I understood what you were saying, I also hesitate to speak of the person of Christ in terms of "parts": if he is fully human and fully divine, then he is not partly one and partly the other. Anyway, I knew what you meant and could thus look through it. Thanks, Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore- Original Message - From: Taylor So that I know for sure what you mean to convey, let me ask you: do you as a human have "divine thoughts"? Billcd: Yes to a limited degree-but I cannot hold the perspective that Christ is limited in His divine thinking.I realize that the flesh would influence one thinking to my limited 'divine 'thoughts but with Christ who walked according to the Spirit I see no limitations. Nor do I admit there has to be such weakness in us as we also have the Spirit-We simply are not willing to pray and fast and abstain from things as one should to weaken this flesh and hence allow more diviness to control us.- Original Message - From: Dean Moore cd: Yes we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts.- Original Message - From: Taylor If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ while walking this earth was fully God. I DO
[TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:40:28 -0500 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy, you are completely misunderstanding Bill. When he speaks of the resurrection, he means bodies which are transformed. You are reading right past him and seeing something that is not there, much like John does to nearly all my posts. I am reading what he is saying David - you may have some inside insight toward him that I don't have. I read him saying the Jesus the Christ was fully human (like us) which by nature is fallen in the first Adam and ATST Fully God - which is am impossible dichotomy. He then went onto say that Jesus became human so that he could save humanity and take them to heaven. The mystery of Godliness, God manifest in the flesh, is something taught in Scripture. Yes, by way of the fullness of the Holy Spirit in the body God provided for Him. Can you see it any other way? When you claim that the flesh of Jesus only looked like our flesh but really was something very different, you are deviating from the concept of "Christ was manifest in the flesh." You think you are not because you still think he was flesh, but your flesh is an alien flesh that you constantly say was UNLIKE our flesh when the Scriptures say he was LIKE us. The ONLYdeviation in what I say is my claim that Jesus was pure and holy from his birth which fact makes his flesh different from ours since ours is fallen and we are the ones with the dichotomy of the two natures as described by the apostle Paul in Romans 7:8. I sayJesus the Christ had no such dichotomy although he was severely tested/tempted You seem to think that Bill makes Jesus too much like us, but the Bible does not prohibit this viewpoint anywhere. In fact, it argues strongly that he was like us in every way. I don't see any strong arguments in scripture for His humanity to be exactly like ours - to the contrary, YET WITHOUT SIN says it all. You have a problem understanding how there can be unity between a God living in a defective body. I don't blame you, but my experience of the living Christ in me helps me understand how it works. Think about it David; Satan has been building strongholds and has had familiar spirits in us and our families for generations. As you know these do not leave overnight - salvation is a walk of grace. Do you think for one moment the demons would dare to inhabit Jesus? They wouldn't go anywhere near him, they were afraid he had come to torment them before the time. It is simply the Spirit filled life. When the spirit reigns and the flesh is kept dead, this is how Jesus lived. This is how we should live. I know He left us an example that we should follow in His steps and as a body the Church ought to be doing the same works However He lived and walked in the kind of faithwe have never ever seen duplicated. The miracles, walking on water, raising the dead. All we have seen so far are a few crumbs. I've already shared the relevant passages from Hebrews that helps us with those. I hope you have not forgotten them. I still think you ignore them and do not adequately address them. If you would like me to post them again, just ask. I would like to see them again but can't guarantee a change of heart. I would need to see them by God's Word - I'm sure you know what I mean. I get so frustrated that so much hinges on the Church Fathers. Why is that?? How can they state emphatically that Jesus is fully human and fully God and that his humanity is not divine? What kind of double talk is that?? David Miller. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:52 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOTDIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:35:51 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It is humanity which Christ came to save, Judy. He did that by assuming human likeness. What scripture do you base the above on Bill?The same one from Hebrews? He was raised as well a human, Judy, and sits at his Father's side: a human being. So now you claim that a transformed body without blood that is able to walk through walls is in the likeness ofour human bodiesBill? We will be resurrected human, as well --no longer with flesh and blood tainted body's but with resurrected bodies; bodies all-the-more human, Judy --not un-human. Really? This is "another gospel" entirely - to claim that God just loves old nastyfallen and mean humanity so much that He can't
Re: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Judy, Jesus did not come ONLY to redeem us spiritually, but physically as well. Jesus redeemed the whole man, spirit, soul, and body. The body is the last thing to experience that redemption, which will be realized in the resurrection. The idea that what happened to Christ will happen to us is realized forcefully by acknowledging that he is indeed one of us. He is not just our God. He is our brother, born of the same flesh. Consider Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. The same analogy can be made of many things concerning Christ when we realize that he was a man just like us. Consider the following passage: Hebrews 12:3-4 (3) For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. (4) Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. The idea that gives an instruction like this power and force is the concept that he was just like us. When he resisted sin, he did not have an edge over us that was any different than what we have. Therefore, even as he resisted sin to the shedding of his own blood, so too we can find strength to do the same. We know this when we realize that he was made in the likeness of the same sinful flesh as we have, yet he resisted the temptations of that flesh and did not succomb to it. Hebrews 2:11 (11) For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Hebrews 2:14 (14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same Hebrews 2:16-17 (16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. (17) Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren David Miller. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:44 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, the one who was created? If Jesus were only like the first Adam and not like the rest of us, then he could only redeem those born of his own loins. In order to redeem mankind, including Adam and Eve and all of their descendants, he would have to become one of us. Why? What do loins have to do with spsiritual redemption and what it takes to redeem mankind? His salvation unlike the covering of bulls and goats is eternal because his blood is the blood of the eternal Spirit. (Hebrews 9:14) Judy wrote: Jesus was not exactly procreated like us since he had no human father so that must mess up your thesis at least a little. Such does not bother the thesis of the humanity of Jesus one bit. Only if you argue that Jesus did not inherit genetic material from Mary would it be a problem. The Bible gives every indication that Jesus was related to Mary, related to David, related to Abraham, and related to Adam. Yes I understand the genealogies are important and relevant or they wouldn't be there... but I see their value as more spiritual than biolgical ie: Ishmael was a biolgical son but Isaac the child of Promise. I understand blessings and curses to come down through families generationally in the spiritual sense even though there is a biolgical dimension also. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
The first Adam after the fall did indeed need savingfrom the wrath of God Bill and so do we. Our "humanity" is under a curse along with the rest of creation Bill Which is spelled out in scripture. Jesus went to the cross in order to institute a "New Creation" and this is why he is called the Second Adam. The first Adam is earthy or of the earthy (as we are). The Second Adam is the Lord from heaven. Your gospel is inverted Bill. It is not Jesus who takes on our likeness although he passed in all the areas where the first Adam failed; and was without sin where we are for the most part loaded down with it. Read 1 Cor 15:42-52. Sounds to me like the second Adam is the Lord from heaven. I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. From: Taylor Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, ... Because the first Adam before the fall did not need to be saved Judy. We do. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:29:01 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their nature and character spiritually - which "likeness" Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into disobedience by eating the wrong fruit. Thereafter all men (including us) are borninto this world by procreation in the likeness of the first Adam rather than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3) The only possible way to regainthe image of God lost by the first Adam is to become conformed to the image of the second Adam which is the sole purpose for His coming and His willingness to lay down His human lifeas a perfect sacrifice in our place. Laying aside the fact that you are making much too much of Seth having been born in the image of Adam (see Gen 9.6 and answer for me what would be wrong, then, with killing someone who was no longer created in God's image, but in Adam's), At the beginnign they were created in God's image and now Noah who found grace is starting over even though it didn't take too many generations for the whole of humanity (all but 8 ppl) to be destroyed. I don't believe God is interested in fellowshipping with a bunch of devils. Judy, I fail to understand why that should even prevent Christ from being united in his person, his humanness with his divinity. I understand. It is mixture; joining the holy with the profane which is something God hates. The only thing which could have severed that union was the one thing which he did not do: sin. Hence in his person, he was able to undo that which had indeed produced schizophrenia in the relationship between humanity and God. Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, the one who was created? Jesus was not exactly procreated like us since he had no human father so that must mess up your thesis at least a little. And were he not like us in every way, he could not have produced this reconciliation; for what he would have done in a flesh unlike our own would have had no bearing upon human flesh, and we would therefore still be in sin. Bill Not so; all he had to do was meet God's conditions which apparently involved passing the test that AE failed and he did that in the wilderness... right after his baptism. From: Judy Taylor On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:57:12 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. Well, Judy, then you are still in your sins and you do not have a Savior. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:22 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE The first Adam after the fall did indeed need savingfrom the wrath of God Bill and so do we. Our "humanity" is under a curse along with the rest of creation Bill Which is spelled out in scripture. Jesus went to the cross in order to institute a "New Creation" and this is why he is called the Second Adam. The first Adam is earthy or of the earthy (as we are). The Second Adam is the Lord from heaven. Your gospel is inverted Bill. It is not Jesus who takes on our likeness although he passed in all the areas where the first Adam failed; and was without sin where we are for the most part loaded down with it. Read 1 Cor 15:42-52. Sounds to me like the second Adam is the Lord from heaven. I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. From: Taylor Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, ... Because the first Adam before the fall did not need to be saved Judy. We do. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:29:01 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their nature and character spiritually - which "likeness" Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into disobedience by eating the wrong fruit. Thereafter all men (including us) are borninto this world by procreation in the likeness of the first Adam rather than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3) The only possible way to regainthe image of God lost by the first Adam is to become conformed to the image of the second Adam which is the sole purpose for His coming and His willingness to lay down His human lifeas a perfect sacrifice in our place. Laying aside the fact that you are making much too much of Seth having been born in the image of Adam (see Gen 9.6 and answer for me what would be wrong, then, with killing someone who was no longer created in God's image, but in Adam's), At the beginnign they were created in God's image and now Noah who found grace is starting over even though it didn't take too many generations for the whole of humanity (all but 8 ppl) to be destroyed. I don't believe God is interested in fellowshipping with a bunch of devils. Judy, I fail to understand why that should even prevent Christ from being united in his person, his humanness with his divinity. I understand. It is mixture; joining the holy with the profane which is something God hates. The only thing which could have severed that union was the one thing which he did not do: sin. Hence in his person, he was able to undo that which had indeed produced schizophrenia in the relationship between humanity and God. Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, the one who was created? Jesus was not exactly procreated like us since he had no human father so that must mess up your thesis at least a little. And were he not like us in every way, he could not have produced this reconciliation; for what he would have done in a flesh unlike our own would have had no bearing upon human
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Oh yes, I have one but apparently He is not the same one that you haveBill Mine is the Lord, a son of man who descendedfrom heaven to inhabit a body prepared for him. On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:41:39 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. Well, Judy, then you are still in your sins and you do not have a Savior. Bill From: Judy Taylor The first Adam after the fall did indeed need savingfrom the wrath of God Bill and so do we. Our "humanity" is under a curse along with the rest of creation Bill Which is spelled out in scripture. Jesus went to the cross in order to institute a "New Creation" and this is why he is called the Second Adam. The first Adam is earthy or of the earthy (as we are). The Second Adam is the Lord from heaven. Your gospel is inverted Bill. It is not Jesus who takes on our likeness although he passed in all the areas where the first Adam failed; and was without sin where we are for the most part loaded down with it. Read 1 Cor 15:42-52. Sounds to me like the second Adam is the Lord from heaven. I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. From: Taylor Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, ... Because the first Adam before the fall did not need to be saved Judy. We do. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:29:01 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their nature and character spiritually - which "likeness" Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into disobedience by eating the wrong fruit. Thereafter all men (including us) are borninto this world by procreation in the likeness of the first Adam rather than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3) The only possible way to regainthe image of God lost by the first Adam is to become conformed to the image of the second Adam which is the sole purpose for His coming and His willingness to lay down His human lifeas a perfect sacrifice in our place. Laying aside the fact that you are making much too much of Seth having been born in the image of Adam (see Gen 9.6 and answer for me what would be wrong, then, with killing someone who was no longer created in God's image, but in Adam's), At the beginnign they were created in God's image and now Noah who found grace is starting over even though it didn't take too many generations for the whole of humanity (all but 8 ppl) to be destroyed. I don't believe God is interested in fellowshipping with a bunch of devils. Judy, I fail to understand why that should even prevent Christ from being united in his person, his humanness with his divinity. I understand. It is mixture; joining the holy with the profane which is something God hates. The only thing which could have severed that union was the one thing which he did not do: sin. Hence in his person, he was able to undo that which had indeed produced schizophrenia in the relationship between humanity and God. Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, the one who was created? Jesus was not exactly procreated like us since he had no human
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Nobody is denying tht Jesus is the second Adam from heaven. Saying that he became flesh and was made in the likeness of men does not deny his divine origin. Judy wrote: Your gospel is inverted ... It is not Jesus who takes on our likeness Your statement here contradicts Scripture. Hebrews 2:17 (17) Wherefore in ALL THINGS it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren ... Romans 8:3 (3) ... God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Philippians 2:7-8 (7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN: (8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. David Miller - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 4:22 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE The first Adam after the fall did indeed need saving from the wrath of God Bill and so do we. Our humanity is under a curse along with the rest of creation Bill Which is spelled out in scripture. Jesus went to the cross in order to institute a New Creation and this is why he is called the Second Adam. The first Adam is earthy or of the earthy (as we are). The Second Adam is the Lord from heaven. Your gospel is inverted Bill. It is not Jesus who takes on our likeness although he passed in all the areas where the first Adam failed; and was without sin where we are for the most part loaded down with it. Read 1 Cor 15:42-52. Sounds to me like the second Adam is the Lord from heaven. I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. From: Taylor Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, ... Because the first Adam before the fall did not need to be saved Judy. We do. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:29:01 -0700 Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did they not create us in their likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their nature and character spiritually - which likeness Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into disobedience by eating the wrong fruit. Thereafter all men (including us) are born into this world by procreation in the likeness of the first Adam rather than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3) The only possible way to regain the image of God lost by the first Adam is to become conformed to the image of the second Adam which is the sole purpose for His coming and His willingness to lay down His human life as a perfect sacrifice in our place. Laying aside the fact that you are making much too much of Seth having been born in the image of Adam (see Gen 9.6 and answer for me what would be wrong, then, with killing someone who was no longer created in God's image, but in Adam's), At the beginnign they were created in God's image and now Noah who found grace is starting over even though it didn't take too many generations for the whole of humanity (all but 8 ppl) to be destroyed. I don't believe God is interested in fellowshipping with a bunch of devils. Judy, I fail to understand why that should even prevent Christ from being united in his person, his humanness with his divinity. I understand. It is mixture; joining the holy with the profane which is something God hates. The only thing which could have severed that union was the one thing which he did not do: sin. Hence in his person, he was able to undo that which had indeed produced schizophrenia in the relationship between humanity and God. Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, the one who was created? Jesus was not exactly procreated like us since he had no human father so that must mess up your thesis at least a little. And were he not like us in every way, he could not have produced this reconciliation; for what he would have done in a flesh unlike our own would have had no bearing upon human flesh, and we would therefore still be in sin. Bill Not so; all he had to do was meet God's conditions which apparently involved passing the test that AE failed and he did that in the wilderness... right after his baptism. From: Judy Taylor On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:57:12 -0700 Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did they not create us in their likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Judy wrote: I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. Bill wrote: ... then you are still in your sins and you do not have a Savior. I would have to disagree with you here, Bill. Such would make salvation dependent upon her intellectual understanding. It seems to me that Judy knows her Savior. She just does not understand the aspects of humanity about him that we are now discussing. Nevertheless, she has placed faith in him, despite this, and she knows him well enough through the Spirit to have experienced the forgiveness of sins and life everlasting. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 4:41 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. Well, Judy, then you are still in your sins and you do not have a Savior. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:22 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE The first Adam after the fall did indeed need saving from the wrath of God Bill and so do we. Our humanity is under a curse along with the rest of creation Bill Which is spelled out in scripture. Jesus went to the cross in order to institute a New Creation and this is why he is called the Second Adam. The first Adam is earthy or of the earthy (as we are). The Second Adam is the Lord from heaven. Your gospel is inverted Bill. It is not Jesus who takes on our likeness although he passed in all the areas where the first Adam failed; and was without sin where we are for the most part loaded down with it. Read 1 Cor 15:42-52. Sounds to me like the second Adam is the Lord from heaven. I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. From: Taylor Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, ... Because the first Adam before the fall did not need to be saved Judy. We do. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:29:01 -0700 Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did they not create us in their likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their nature and character spiritually - which likeness Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into disobedience by eating the wrong fruit. Thereafter all men (including us) are born into this world by procreation in the likeness of the first Adam rather than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3) The only possible way to regain the image of God lost by the first Adam is to become conformed to the image of the second Adam which is the sole purpose for His coming and His willingness to lay down His human life as a perfect sacrifice in our place. Laying aside the fact that you are making much too much of Seth having been born in the image of Adam (see Gen 9.6 and answer for me what would be wrong, then, with killing someone who was no longer created in God's image, but in Adam's), At the beginnign they were created in God's image and now Noah who found grace is starting over even though it didn't take too many generations for the whole of humanity (all but 8 ppl) to be destroyed. I don't believe God is interested in fellowshipping with a bunch of devils. Judy, I fail to understand why that should even prevent Christ from being united in his person, his humanness with his divinity. I understand. It is mixture; joining the holy with the profane which is something God hates. The only thing which could have severed that union was the one thing which he did not do: sin. Hence in his person, he was able to undo that which had indeed produced schizophrenia in the relationship between humanity and God. Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, the one who was created? Jesus was not exactly procreated like us since he had no human father so that must mess up your thesis at least a little. And were he not like us in every way, he could not have produced this reconciliation; for what he would have done in a flesh unlike our own would have had no bearing upon human flesh, and we would therefore still be in sin. Bill Not so; all he had to do was meet God's conditions which apparently involved passing the test that AE failed and he did that in the wilderness... right after his baptism. From: Judy Taylor On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:57:12 -0700 Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there
[TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Thanks David, Just a few notations... From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Judy, Jesus did not come ONLY to redeem us spiritually, but physically as well. Jesus redeemed the whole man, spirit, soul, and body. The body is the last thing to experience that redemption, which will be realized in the resurrection. He came to make ALL things new - not to leave us as he found us ie: 2 Cor 5:17 The idea that what happened to Christ will happen to us is realized forcefully by acknowledging that he is indeed one of us. He is not just our God. He is our brother, born of the same flesh. He called himself the Lord from Heaven and John the Baptist called him that also saying "He who comes from above is above all" (John 3:31) for God gives Him the Spirit without measure V.34 Consider Romans 6:5"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." The same analogy can be made of many things concerning Christ when we realize that he was a man just like us. David, I struggled with this early on - that is, the idea that Jesus was just like us. Today Rom 6:5 is saying to me that we must die to this old sinful flesh nature to be planted in the likeness of his death and be eligible to be part ofHis resurrection. Consider the following passage: Hebrews 12:3-4(3) For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.(4) Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. The idea that gives an instruction like this power and force is the concept that he was just like us. When he resisted sin, he did not have an edge over us that was any different than what we have. What was the sin he resisted to the shedding of blood? Laying his physical life down voluntarily to take on the sin of the whole world at the cross. I've never had to make a choice like that one so far. Have you? Therefore, even as he resisted sin to the shedding of his own blood, so too we can find strength to do the same. We know this when we realize that he was made in the likeness of the same sinful flesh as we have, yet he resisted the temptations of that flesh and did not succomb to it. I have never taken comfort in that David. The comfort I receive comes from the fact that when God raised him from the dead he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men. I have access to and faith in the same Word he used against the adversary in the wilderness and I know who was victorious at Calvary. The way I understand it the flesh profits-his or ours. He prevailed by the Spirit. Hebrews 2:11(11) For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Those who are "sanctified" post Calvary? Hebrews 2:14(14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same Hebrews 2:16-17(16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.(17) Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren David Miller. From: Judy TaylorTo: truthtalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:44 PMSubject: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Judy wrote: Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, the one who was created? If Jesus were only like the first Adam and not like the rest of us, then he could onlyredeem those born of his own loins. In order to redeem mankind, including Adam andEve and all of their descendants, he would have to become one of us. Why? What do loins have to do with spsiritual redemption and what it takes to redeemmankind? His salvation unlike the covering of bulls and goats is eternal because hisblood is the blood of the eternal Spirit. (Hebrews 9:14) Judy wrote: Jesus was not exactly procreated like us since he had no human father so that mustmess up your thesis at least a little. Such does not bother the thesis of the humanity of Jesus one bit. Only if you arguethat Jesus did not inherit genetic material from Mary would it be a problem. The Biblegives every indication that Jesus was related to Mary, related to David, related toAbraham, and related to Adam. Yes I understand the genealogies are important and relevant or they wouldn't be there...but I see their value as more spiritual than biolgical ie: Ishmael was a biolgical sonbut Isaac the child of Promise. I understand blessings and curses to come downthrough families generationally in the spiritual sense even though there is abiolgical dimension also. David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not
[TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
All of the scriptures below say "LIKENESS" David. I don't have any problem with that. What I have a problem with is going on to make "likeness equal to same as" Jesus could not have been exactly the same as us because we are all born into an Eph 2 reality andHe was not. John the Baptist, the greatest of the OT prophets didn't think he was just like him at all, in fact John didn't think himself worthy to fasten the latchet on his sandal and said: "He that cometh from above is above all; he that is of the earth is earthy and speaketh of the earth; he that cometh from heaven is above all. V.34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God, for God giveth not the spirit to Him by measure unto Him. The Father loves the Son and hath given all things into his hand." (John 3:31,34) We are to take on (be conformed to) His likeness and one must be born again to even be able to see or comprehend the Kingdom of Heaven which he came to introduce to mankind. From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nobody is denying tht Jesus is the second Adam from heaven. Saying that he became flesh and was made in the likeness of men does not deny his divine origin. Judy wrote: Your gospel is inverted ... It is not Jesus who takes on our likeness Your statement here contradicts Scripture. Hebrews 2:17(17) Wherefore in ALL THINGS it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren ... Romans 8:3(3) ... God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Philippians 2:7-8(7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN:(8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. David Miller - Original Message - From: Judy TaylorTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Monday, January 16, 2006 4:22 PMSubject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE The first Adam after the fall did indeed need saving from the wrath of God Billand so do we. Our "humanity" is under a curse along with the rest of creation BillWhich is spelled out in scripture. Jesus went to the cross in order to institute a"New Creation" and this is why he is called the Second Adam. The first Adamis earthy or of the earthy (as we are). The Second Adam is the Lord from heaven. Your gospel is inverted Bill. It is not Jesus who takes on our likeness although hepassed in all the areas where the first Adam failed; and was without sin where weare for the most part loaded down with it. Read 1 Cor 15:42-52. Sounds to melike the second Adam is the Lord from heaven. I don't see anything earthy abouthim. Temptation or no temptation. From: Taylor Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like thefirst Adam before the fall, ... Because the first Adam before the fall did not need to be saved Judy. We do. Bill- Original Message - From: Judy TaylorTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:50 AMSubject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:29:01 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their nature and character spiritually - which "likeness"Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into disobedience by eating the wrong fruit. Thereafter all men (including us) are born into this world by procreation in the likeness ofthe first Adam rather than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3) The only possible way to regain the image of God lost by the first Adam is to becomeconformed to the image of the second Adam which is the sole purpose for His comingand His willingness to lay down His human life as a perfect sacrifice in our place. Laying aside the fact that you are making much too much of Seth having been born in the imageof Adam (see Gen 9.6 and answer for me what would be wrong, then, with killing someone whowas no longer created in God's image, but in Adam's), At the beginnign they were created in God's image and now Noah who found grace is startingover even though it didn't take too many generations for the whole of humanity (all but 8 ppl)to be destroyed. I don't believe God is interested in fellowshipping with a bunch of devils. Judy, I fail to understand why that should even prevent Christ from being united in his person,his humanness with his divinity. I understand. It is mixture; joining the holy with the profane which is something God hates. The only thing which could have severed that union was the one thing which he did not do:sin. Hence in his person, he was able to undo that which had indeed produced schizophreniain
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
David, I am not saying that the Jesus I believe in -- that is, the Jesus of Scripture --cannot save her, or that she is not saved bythat same Jesus. I am saying that the Jesus she describes cannot save her, as he is impotent to save her or anyone else, and if it were true what she says about the hybrid she believes in, we are all doomed. And so my apologies for not being more specific. I can see where you misunderstood me. Bill - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:00 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Judy wrote: I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. Bill wrote: ... then you are still in your sins and you do not have a Savior. I would have to disagree with you here, Bill. Such would make salvation dependent upon her intellectual understanding. It seems to me that Judy knows her Savior. She just does not understand the aspects of humanity about him that we are now discussing. Nevertheless, she has placed faith in him, despite this, and she knows him well enough through the Spirit to have experienced the forgiveness of sins and life everlasting. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 4:41 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. Well, Judy, then you are still in your sins and you do not have a Savior. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:22 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE The first Adam after the fall did indeed need saving from the wrath of God Bill and so do we. Our "humanity" is under a curse along with the rest of creation Bill Which is spelled out in scripture. Jesus went to the cross in order to institute a "New Creation" and this is why he is called the Second Adam. The first Adam is earthy or of the earthy (as we are). The Second Adam is the Lord from heaven. Your gospel is inverted Bill. It is not Jesus who takes on our likeness although he passed in all the areas where the first Adam failed; and was without sin where we are for the most part loaded down with it. Read 1 Cor 15:42-52. Sounds to me like the second Adam is the Lord from heaven. I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation.From: Taylor Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, ... Because the first Adam before the fall did not need to be saved Judy. We do. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:29:01 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their nature and character spiritually - which "likeness" Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into disobedience by eating the wrong fruit. Thereafter all men (including us) are born into this world by procreation in the likeness of the first Adam rather than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3) The only possible way to regain the image of God lost by the first Adam is to become conformed to the image of the second Adam which is the sole purpose for His coming and His willingness to lay down His human life as a perfect sacrifice in our place. Laying aside the fact that you are making much too much of Seth having been born in the image of Adam (see Gen 9.6 and answer for me what would be wrong, then, with killing someone who was no longer created in God's image, but in Adam's), At the beginnign they were created in God's image and now Noah who found grace is starting over even though it didn't take too many generations for the whole of humanity (all but 8 ppl) to be destroyed. I don't believe God is interested in fellowshipping with a bunch of devils. Judy, I fail to understand why that should even prevent Christ from being united in his person, his humanness with his divinity. I understand. It is mixture; joining the holy with the profane which is something God hates. The only thing which could have severed that union was the one thing which he did not do: sin. Hence in his person, he was able to undo that which had indeed produced schizophrenia in the relationship between humanity and God. Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like
[TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Which part of the Jesus I believe in is not according to scripture Bill? What makes Him impotent in your opinion? On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:36:13 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: David, I am not saying that the Jesus I believe in -- that is, the Jesus of Scripture --cannot save her, or that she is not saved bythat same Jesus. I am saying that the Jesus she describes cannot save her, as he is impotent to save her or anyone else, and if it were true what she says about the hybrid she believes in, we are all doomed. And so my apologies for not being more specific. I can see where you misunderstood me. Bill - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:00 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Judy wrote: I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. Bill wrote: ... then you are still in your sins and you do not have a Savior. I would have to disagree with you here, Bill. Such would make salvation dependent upon her intellectual understanding. It seems to me that Judy knows her Savior. She just does not understand the aspects of humanity about him that we are now discussing. Nevertheless, she has placed faith in him, despite this, and she knows him well enough through the Spirit to have experienced the forgiveness of sins and life everlasting. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 4:41 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. Well, Judy, then you are still in your sins and you do not have a Savior. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:22 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE The first Adam after the fall did indeed need saving from the wrath of God Bill and so do we. Our "humanity" is under a curse along with the rest of creation Bill Which is spelled out in scripture. Jesus went to the cross in order to institute a "New Creation" and this is why he is called the Second Adam. The first Adam is earthy or of the earthy (as we are). The Second Adam is the Lord from heaven. Your gospel is inverted Bill. It is not Jesus who takes on our likeness although he passed in all the areas where the first Adam failed; and was without sin where we are for the most part loaded down with it. Read 1 Cor 15:42-52. Sounds to me like the second Adam is the Lord from heaven. I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. From: Taylor Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, ... Because the first Adam before the fall did not need to be saved Judy. We do. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:29:01 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their nature and character spiritually - which "likeness" Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into disobedience by eating the wrong fruit. Thereafter all men (including us) are born into this world by procreation in the likeness of the first Adam rather than the likeness of God (Gen 5:3) The only possible way to regain the image of God lost by the first Adam is to become conformed to the image of the second Adam which is the sole purpose for His coming and His willingness to lay down His human life as a perfect sacrifice in our place. Laying aside the fact that you are making much too much of Seth having been born in the image of Adam (see Gen 9.6 and answer for me what would be wrong, then, with killing someone who was no longer created in God's image, but in Adam's), At the beginnign they were created in God's image and now Noah who found grace is starting over even though it didn't take too many generations for the whole of humanity (all but 8 ppl) to be destroyed. I don't believe God is interested in fellowshipping with a bunch of devils. Judy, I fail to understand why that should even prevent Christ from being united in his person, his humanness with his
Re: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Which part of the Jesus I believe in is not according to scripture Bill? All of him. What makes Him impotent in your opinion? He is neither God nor man, but something less than the former* and greater than the latter**; hence he is unrelated to both and therefore irrelevant, just an idol you worship. * Lance wrote, "Jesus is God," to which Judy responded, "How can the Father be greater than God Himself?" (Monday, January 02, 2006) ** "How can [the Church fathers] state emphatically that Jesus is fully human ... and that his humanity is not divine?"(Monday, January 16, 2006) - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:37 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Which part of the Jesus I believe in is not according to scripture Bill? What makes Him impotent in your opinion? On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:36:13 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: David, I am not saying that the Jesus I believe in -- that is, the Jesus of Scripture --cannot save her, or that she is not saved bythat same Jesus. I am saying that the Jesus she describes cannot save her, as he is impotent to save her or anyone else, and if it were true what she says about the hybrid she believes in, we are all doomed. And so my apologies for not being more specific. I can see where you misunderstood me. Bill - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:00 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Judy wrote: I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. Bill wrote: ... then you are still in your sins and you do not have a Savior. I would have to disagree with you here, Bill. Such would make salvation dependent upon her intellectual understanding. It seems to me that Judy knows her Savior. She just does not understand the aspects of humanity about him that we are now discussing. Nevertheless, she has placed faith in him, despite this, and she knows him well enough through the Spirit to have experienced the forgiveness of sins and life everlasting. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 4:41 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. Well, Judy, then you are still in your sins and you do not have a Savior. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:22 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE The first Adam after the fall did indeed need saving from the wrath of God Bill and so do we. Our "humanity" is under a curse along with the rest of creation Bill Which is spelled out in scripture. Jesus went to the cross in order to institute a "New Creation" and this is why he is called the Second Adam. The first Adam is earthy or of the earthy (as we are). The Second Adam is the Lord from heaven. Your gospel is inverted Bill. It is not Jesus who takes on our likeness although he passed in all the areas where the first Adam failed; and was without sin where we are for the most part loaded down with it. Read 1 Cor 15:42-52. Sounds to me like the second Adam is the Lord from heaven. I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation.From: Taylor Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, ... Because the first Adam before the fall did not need to be saved Judy. We do. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:29:01 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so there is no way that this would be the same concept Bill. Why is that, Judy? Did "they" not create us in "their" likeness? (cf. Gen 1.26). Yes they did created the first Adam in their nature and character spiritually - which "likeness" Adam forfeited when he chose to go with Eve into disobedience by eating the wrong fruit. Thereafter all men (including us) are born into this world by procreation in the likeness
Re: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:21:07 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Which part of the Jesus I believe in is not according to scripture Bill? All of him. Well the aboveis a detailedand coherent response - is this the best you can do? What makes Him impotent in your opinion? He is neither God nor man, but something less than the former* and greater than the latter**; hence he is unrelated to both and therefore irrelevant, just an idol you worship. IOW You don't understand Him so he must either conform to the Church Fathers and "orthodoxy" or He is an idol? Whata good student you have been Bill. * Lance wrote, "Jesus is God," to which Judy responded, "How can the Father be greater than God Himself?" (Monday, January 02, 2006) My response relates to Jesus' own words which are "The Father is greater than Me" (John 14:28) So my question still stands. Unanswered I might add. I don't just make up this stuff you know. ** "How can [the Church fathers] state emphatically that Jesus is fully human ... and that his humanity is not divine?"(Monday, January 16, 2006) He has got to be one or the other Bill - or it is YOUR JESUS who is a hybrid and not mine regardless of what the Church Fathers came up with. They were not God - there is a higher authority you know. From: Judy Taylor Which part of the Jesus I believe in is not according to scripture Bill? What makes Him impotent in your opinion? On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:36:13 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: David, I am not saying that the Jesus I believe in -- that is, the Jesus of Scripture --cannot save her, or that she is not saved bythat same Jesus. I am saying that the Jesus she describes cannot save her, as he is impotent to save her or anyone else, and if it were true what she says about the hybrid she believes in, we are all doomed. And so my apologies for not being more specific. I can see where you misunderstood me. Bill - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:00 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Judy wrote: I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. Bill wrote: ... then you are still in your sins and you do not have a Savior. I would have to disagree with you here, Bill. Such would make salvation dependent upon her intellectual understanding. It seems to me that Judy knows her Savior. She just does not understand the aspects of humanity about him that we are now discussing. Nevertheless, she has placed faith in him, despite this, and she knows him well enough through the Spirit to have experienced the forgiveness of sins and life everlasting. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 4:41 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. Well, Judy, then you are still in your sins and you do not have a Savior. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:22 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE The first Adam after the fall did indeed need saving from the wrath of God Bill and so do we. Our "humanity" is under a curse along with the rest of creation Bill Which is spelled out in scripture. Jesus went to the cross in order to institute a "New Creation" and this is why he is called the Second Adam. The first Adam is earthy or of the earthy (as we are). The Second Adam is the Lord from heaven. Your gospel is inverted Bill. It is not Jesus who takes on our likeness although he passed in all the areas where the first Adam failed; and was without sin where we are for the most part loaded down with it. Read 1 Cor 15:42-52. Sounds to me like the second Adam is the Lord from heaven. I don't see anything earthy about him. Temptation or no temptation. From: Taylor Tell me why he (Jesus) HAD to be like US in every way? Why couldn't he have been like the first Adam before the fall, ... Because the first Adam before the fall did not need to be saved Judy. We do. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Re: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Excellent points Dean And you are not trying to cut Him up into different exclusive pieces - Hallelujah to King Jesus!! On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 20:11:54 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: cd: Can that likeness to human flesh also be a reflection of Christ's mental capacity? Did that capacity have the likeness to man or was there more? John the Baptist was said to be greatest among men-yet Christ was greater-How can both be true David if He was only a man? Could Christ be greater than the greatest man and only be a common man? The least in heaven is greater than John-yet there is none greater than Christ in heaven-if so they would have been able to open the book described in Rev.-none could. Yes, He was sent in the likeness of man and more-much more.What man can retain the memory of sharing glory with God from creation? In other words, in the same way that we speak of the likeness of Christ to Father God, so also we should speak of his likeness to humanity and human flesh. David Miller. cd: Can that likeness to human flesh also be a reflection of Christ's mental capacity?Did that capacity have the likeness to man or was there more?John the Baptist was said to be greatest among men-yet Christ was greater-How can both be true David if He was only a man? Could Christ be greater than the greatest man and only be a common man?The least in heaven is greater than John-yet there is none greater than Christ in heaven-if so they would have been able to open the book described in Rev.-none could. Yes, He was sent in the likeness of man and more-much more.What man can retain the memory of sharing glory with God from creation? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 3:25 PM Subject: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Likeness might mean like but not exactly like, but it also might mean so much like it as to be indistinguishable. When we say that Jesus is the image of Father, or that he is like the Father, so much so that when you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father, it might be inappropriate to say that Jesus is like the Father, but not exactly like him. Do you see it differently, Judy? David Miller. I don't know When He walked the earth as a man He was not the Father because He prayed to the Father and when He said these words to Philip ie: "If you have seen me you have seen the Father" (John 14:9) I believe He is referring to the ministry rather than toHimself personallybecause everything He said and did (both works and words) he had first seen the Father saying and doing which heexplains further in John 14:10 and John 5:19. - Original Message - From: Judy TaylorTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:17 AMSubject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Only a similitude or likeness even "in every way" is not the exact same thing JD. On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:12:30 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:If you had responded by saying that the man Jesus did not have a human mind, or a human spirit, or a human soul, then I would have had to disagree; for then he would not have been like us in every way (cf. Heb 2.17). Like us is "similitude" Bill - it does not mean exactly the "same as" Every human being born by procreation into this fallen worldis also fallen. There is none righteous and none that does good EXCEPT ONE. Judy argues "like us" in total disregard of the additional phrase "IN EVERY WAY" -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:16:00 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:I was just wanting to better understand what you were wanting me to agree with in your statement: we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. Having read your response I am comfortable that we can agree. The word "preoccupied" has a ring to it with which I am not completely satisfied, but I believe the man Jesus was preoccupied with doing the will of his heavenly Father; hence his thought-life was fully intuned to the divine. If you had responded by saying that the man Jesus did not have a human mind, or a human spirit, or a human soul, then I would have had to disagree; for then he would not have been like us in every
Re: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Jesus and the Father are of the same substance DAVEH: What do you mean by substance, DavidM? David Miller wrote: There is only one person who is the Father. Clearly, Jesus is describing likeness. Whether you are Trinitarian or Oneness in doctrine concerning the Godhead, the view is that Jesus and the Father are of the same substance. If memory serves me correctly, the Greek word is actually the same as that translated likeness. In other words, in the same way that we speak of the likeness of Christ to Father God, so also we should speak of his likeness to humanity and human flesh. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
I took him to be asking if I think I will ever be divine; i.e., a God myself DAVEH: No..That's not quite what I was asking, Bill. I realize you don't feel a divine kinship to God, but I assume you believe you are a son of God. I'm trying to find out what that means to you. (As you know, I have a much different perspective, and I'm trying to understand your contrasting view of what it means to be a son of God.) Taylor wrote: Well then you answer him, Miller :) I took him to be asking if I think I will ever be divine; i.e., a God myself. I do not. If you think otherwise, then enlighten me too. - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 7:03 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Dave Hansen makes an excellent point here. I hope you will be able to respond, Bill. I have many passages in the back of my mind that would support Dave Hansen on this point. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:49 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE He is God and we are not. DAVEH: In a previous post, you had answered No. when I asked you if you believe we have divine roots. I realize that we are not God, but yet I believe there is a relationship we can have with God that encourages us to become like him. I assume you do not recognize that relationshipis that correct? So, how do you perceive becoming one of the sons of God.do you believe you fit into that category, Bill? And if so, what does it mean to you? Taylor wrote: DHSo.what do you perceive to be the limitations that prevent us from becoming like God? He is God and we are not. Bill - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE DAVEH As you know, the LDS believe that mortals can become like God. I assume you agree with the following. We can become perfect (in a complete sense) like God. We can know the difference between good and evil. We can become one with him, as he (Jesus) is one with his Father. We will eventually be resurrected like him. So.what do you perceive to be the limitations that prevent us from becoming like God? Taylor wrote: If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ while walking this earth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Dean:I'd ask of you what I asked of DM, namely, outline your own position regarding 'who Jesus is' rather than just picking around the edges of other's comments concerning 'who Jesus is'. JUST WHICH JESUS DO YOU SPEAK OF WHEN SPing? --- Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 17:42 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 10:07:54 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Divine = God cd: Lance Webster puts it this way-Note that Christ fits many of the below definitions. DIVINE, a. [L., a god.] 1. Pertaining to the true God; as the divine nature; divine perfections. 2. Pertaining to a heathen deity, or to false gods. 3. Partaking of the nature of God. Half human, half divine. 4. Proceeding from God; as divine judgments. 5. Godlike; heavenly; excellent in the highest degree; extraordinary; apparently above what is human. In this application the word admits of comparison; as a divine invention; a divine genius; the divinest mind. A divine sentence is in the lips of the king. Prov 16. 6. Presageful; foreboding; prescient. [Not used.] 7. Appropriated to God, or celebrating his praise; as divine service; divine songs; divine worship. DIVINE, n. 1. A minister of the gospel; a priest; a clergyman. The first divines of New England were surpassed by none in extensive erudition, personal sanctity, and diligence in the pastoral office. 2. A man skilled in divinity; a theologian; as a great divine. DIVINE, v.t. [L.] 1. To foreknow; to foretell; to presage. Darst thou divine his downfall? 2. To deify. [Not in use.] DIVINE, v.i. 1. To use or practice divination. 2. To utter presages or prognostications. The prophets thereof divine for money. Micah 3. 3. To have presages or forebodings. Suggest but truth to my divining thoughts-- 4. To guess or conjecture. Could you divine what lovers bear.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
- Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 6:49:49 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Dean:I'd ask of you what I asked of DM, namely, outline your own position regarding 'who Jesus is' rather than just picking around the edges of other's comments concerning 'who Jesus is'. JUST WHICH JESUS DO YOU SPEAK OF WHEN SPing? cd: I believe that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the son of God who came to earth to first teach us a more correct way (truth) and then to die on a tree for the sins of the whole world to pay God redemption price for mankind. He was divine in words, nature, and character. He was God who gave up dwelling as a spirit to take on a lower form in order to die as a spirit cannot die but the flesh can.After death He still exists in the form of a body but not one of flesh (corruption)as the price paid forever marked him also-to I believe towards his eternal glory as we will view those marks in his body. I don't believe it to be possible that God would cease to exist in his spirit nature so while he was in earthly form He had to also exist in heavenly form. This mediator (go between God and man)must exist in both forms in order to relate one to the other. In other words Christ knows what we are capable in doing and what we are capable of overcoming-therefore there will be no excuse.I hope this helps y ou understand my beliefs Lance. --- Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 17:42 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 10:07:54 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Divine = God cd: Lance Webster puts it this way-Note that Christ fits many of the below definitions. DIVINE, a. [L., a god.] 1. Pertaining to the true God; as the divine nature; divine perfections. 2. Pertaining to a heathen deity, or to false gods. 3. Partaking of the nature of God. Half human, half divine. 4. Proceeding from God; as divine judgments. 5. Godlike; heavenly; excellent in the highest degree; extraordinary; apparently above what is human. In this application the word admits of comparison; as a divine invention; a divine genius; the divinest mind. A divine sentence is in the lips of the king. Prov 16. 6. Presageful; foreboding; prescient. [Not used.] 7. Appropriated to God, or celebrating his praise; as divine service; divine songs; divine worship. DIVINE, n. 1. A minister of the gospel; a priest; a clergyman. The first divines of New England were surpassed by none in extensive erudition, personal sanctity, and diligence in the pastoral office. 2. A man skilled in divinity; a theologian; as a great divine. DIVINE, v.t. [L.] 1. To foreknow; to foretell; to presage. Darst thou divine his downfall? 2. To deify. [Not in use.] DIVINE, v.i. 1. To use or practice divination. 2. To utter presages or prognostications. The prophets thereof divine for money. Micah 3. 3. To have presages or forebodings. Suggest but truth to my divining thoughts-- 4. To guess or conjecture. Could you divine what lovers bear.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
It does. See David? No book this!! - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 15, 2006 08:34 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 6:49:49 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Dean:I'd ask of you what I asked of DM, namely, outline your own position regarding 'who Jesus is' rather than just picking around the edges of other's comments concerning 'who Jesus is'. JUST WHICH JESUS DO YOU SPEAK OF WHEN SPing? cd: I believe that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the son of God who came to earth to first teach us a more correct way (truth) and then to die on a tree for the sins of the whole world to pay God redemption price for mankind. He was divine in words, nature, and character. He was God who gave up dwelling as a spirit to take on a lower form in order to die as a spirit cannot die but the flesh can.After death He still exists in the form of a body but not one of flesh (corruption)as the price paid forever marked him also-to I believe towards his eternal glory as we will view those marks in his body. I don't believe it to be possible that God would cease to exist in his spirit nature so while he was in earthly form He had to also exist in heavenly form. This mediator (go between God and man)must exist in both forms in order to relate one to the other. In other words Christ knows what we are capable in doing and what we are capable of overcoming-therefore there will be no excuse.I hope this helps y ou understand my beliefs Lance. --- Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 17:42 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 10:07:54 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Divine = God cd: Lance Webster puts it this way-Note that Christ fits many of the below definitions. DIVINE, a. [L., a god.] 1. Pertaining to the true God; as the divine nature; divine perfections. 2. Pertaining to a heathen deity, or to false gods. 3. Partaking of the nature of God. Half human, half divine. 4. Proceeding from God; as divine judgments. 5. Godlike; heavenly; excellent in the highest degree; extraordinary; apparently above what is human. In this application the word admits of comparison; as a divine invention; a divine genius; the divinest mind. A divine sentence is in the lips of the king. Prov 16. 6. Presageful; foreboding; prescient. [Not used.] 7. Appropriated to God, or celebrating his praise; as divine service; divine songs; divine worship. DIVINE, n. 1. A minister of the gospel; a priest; a clergyman. The first divines of New England were surpassed by none in extensive erudition, personal sanctity, and diligence in the pastoral office. 2. A man skilled in divinity; a theologian; as a great divine. DIVINE, v.t. [L.] 1. To foreknow; to foretell; to presage. Darst thou divine his downfall? 2. To deify. [Not in use.] DIVINE, v.i. 1. To use or practice divination. 2. To utter presages or prognostications. The prophets thereof divine for money. Micah 3. 3. To have presages or forebodings. Suggest but truth to my divining thoughts-- 4. To guess or conjecture. Could you divine what lovers bear.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Howironic that his mentor Bill would write something like this. I think Lance just repeated it to qualify something. Lance has been a far greater mentor to me than I to him; I assure you. There is no irony in my statement. I have consistently stated that I believe that the person of Christ was both fully human and fully God, which is to say that his human nature was not divine and his divine nature was not human; there was no confusion between his natures. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 11:05 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Dean, I think this is where "theology" gets itself tied in knots. This is what JD has been accusing me of for so long. Howironic that his mentor Bill would write something like this. I think Lance just repeated it to qualify something. So their Jesus must have a schism in his personality (or nature). What about his saying to Philip"If you have seen meyou have seen the Father" We know he wasn't speaking of his physical body here; so does God The Father also have a schismatic personality. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:59:08 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, yes and no, DH. I am included in that circle oflove in the way that Christ's humanity is included in that relationship. Butas the humanity of Christ is not divine, neitheram I divine. cd: Lance at this point-How do you define "Divine"? -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:34 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 6:49:49 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Dean:I'd ask of you what I asked of DM, namely, outline your own position regarding 'who Jesus is' rather than just picking around the edges of other's comments concerning 'who Jesus is'. JUST WHICH JESUS DO YOU SPEAK OF WHEN SPing? cd: I believe that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the son of God who came to earth to first teach us a more correct way (truth) and then to die on a tree for the sins of the whole world to pay God redemption price for mankind. He was divine in words, nature, and character. He was God who gave up dwelling as a spirit to take on a lower form in order to die as a spirit cannot die but the flesh can.After death He still exists in the form of a body but not one of flesh (corruption)as the price paid forever marked him also-to I believe towards his eternal glory as we will view those marks in his body. I don't believe it to be possible that God would cease to exist in his spirit nature so while he was in earthly form He had to also exist in heavenly form. This mediator (go between God and man)must exist in both forms in order to relate one to the other. In other words Christ knows what we are capable in doing and what we are capable of overcoming-therefore there will be no excuse.I hope this helps y ou understand my beliefs Lance. --- Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 17:42 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 10:07:54 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Divine = God cd: Lance Webster puts it this way-Note that Christ fits many of the below definitions. DIVINE, a. [L., a god.] 1. Pertaining to the true God; as the divine nature; divine perfections. 2. Pertaining to a heathen deity, or to false gods. 3. Partaking of the nature of God. Half human, half divine. 4. Proceeding from God; as divine judgments. 5. Godlike; heavenly; excellent in the highest degree; extraordinary; apparently above what is human. In this application the word admits of comparison; as a divine invention; a divine genius; the divinest mind. A divine sentence is in the lips of the king. Prov 16. 6. Presageful; foreboding; prescient. [Not used.] 7. Appropriated to God, or celebrating his praise; as divine service; divine songs; divine worship. DIVINE, n. 1. A minister of the gospel; a priest; a clergyman. The first divines of New England were surpassed by none in extensive erudition, personal sanctity, and diligence in the pastoral office. 2. A man skilled in divinity; a theologian; as a great divine. DIVINE, v.t. [L.] 1. To foreknow; to foretell; to presage. Darst thou divine his downfall? 2. To deify. [Not in use.] DIVINE, v.i. 1. To use or practice divination. 2. To utter presages or prognostications. The prophets thereof divine for money. Micah 3. 3. To have presages or forebodings. Suggest but truth to my divining thoughts-- 4. To guess or conjecture. Could you divine what lovers bear.-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
DAVEH As you know, the LDS believe that mortals can become like God. I assume you agree with the following. We can become perfect (in a complete sense) like God. We can know the difference between good and evil. We can become one with him, as he (Jesus) is one with his Father. We will eventually be resurrected like him. So.what do you perceive to be the limitations that prevent us from becoming like God? Taylor wrote: If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
DH So.what do you perceive to be the limitations that prevent us from becoming like God? He is God and we are not. Bill - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE DAVEH As you know, the LDS believe that mortals can become like God. I assume you agree with the following. We can become perfect (in a complete sense) like God. We can know the difference between good and evil. We can become one with him, as he (Jesus) is one with his Father. We will eventually be resurrected like him. So.what do you perceive to be the limitations that prevent us from becoming like God?Taylor wrote: If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
cd: Yes we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 1:53:48 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:34 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 6:49:49 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Dean:I'd ask of you what I asked of DM, namely, outline your own position regarding 'who Jesus is' rather than just picking around the edges of other's comments concerning 'who Jesus is'. JUST WHICH JESUS DO YOU SPEAK OF WHEN SPing? cd: I believe that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the son of God who came to earth to first teach us a more correct way (truth) and then to die on a tree for the sins of the whole world to pay God redemption price for mankind. He was divine in words, nature, and character. He was God who gave up dwelling as a spirit to take on a lower form in order to die as a spirit cannot die but the flesh can.After death He still exists in the form of a body but not one of flesh (corruption)as the price paid forever marked him also-to I believe towards his eternal glory as we will view those marks in his body. I don't believe it to be possible that God would cease to exist in his spirit nature so while he was in earthly form He had to also exist in heavenly form. This mediator (go between God and man)must exist in both forms in order to relate one to the other. In other words Christ knows what we are capable in doing and what we are capable of overcoming-therefore there will be no excuse.I hope this helps y ou understand my beliefs Lance. --- Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 17:42 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 10:07:54 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Divine = God cd: Lance Webster puts it this way-Note that Christ fits many of the below definitions. DIVINE, a. [L., a god.] 1. Pertaining to the true God; as the divine nature; divine perfections. 2. Pertaining to a heathen deity, or to false gods. 3. Partaking of the nature of God. Half human, half divine. 4. Proceeding from God; as divine judgments. 5. Godlike; heavenly; excellent in the highest degree; extraordinary; apparently above what is human. In this application the word admits of comparison; as a divine invention; a divine genius; the divinest mind. A divine sentence is in the lips of the king. Prov 16. 6. Presageful; foreboding; prescient. [Not used.] 7. Appropriated to God, or celebrating his praise; as divine service; divine songs; divine worship. DIVINE, n. 1. A minister of the gospel; a priest; a clergyman. The first divines of New England were surpassed by none in extensive erudition, personal sanctity, and diligence in the pastoral office. 2. A man skilled in divinity; a theologian; as a great divine. DIVINE, v.t. [L.] 1. To foreknow; to foretell; to presage. Darst thou divine his downfall? 2. To deify. [Not in use.] DIVINE, v.i. 1. To use or practice divination. 2. To utter presages or prognostications. The prophets thereof divine for money. Micah 3. 3. To have presages or forebodings. Suggest but truth to my divining thoughts-- 4. To guess or conjecture. Could you divine what lovers bear.-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
cd: Bill one of the Mormons prophets Alfonso Snow wrote: As God was so are we as God is we will be. I think this is close on name and quote if not forgive my mistake-Mormons consider themselves god's inthe embryonic stage and that Jesus is the God of this world-as they will grow and be gods of their own worlds. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 3:16:56 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE DH So.what do you perceive to be the limitations that prevent us from becoming like God? He is God and we are not. Bill - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE DAVEH As you know, the LDS believe that mortals can become like God. I assume you agree with the following. We can become perfect (in a complete sense) like God. We can know the difference between good and evil. We can become one with him, as he (Jesus) is one with his Father. We will eventually be resurrected like him. So.what do you perceive to be the limitations that prevent us from becoming like God?Taylor wrote: If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
So that I know for sure what you mean to convey, let me ask you: do you as a human have "divine thoughts"? Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:40 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE cd: Yes we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 1:53:48 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:34 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 6:49:49 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Dean:I'd ask of you what I asked of DM, namely, outline your own position regarding 'who Jesus is' rather than just picking around the edges of other's comments concerning 'who Jesus is'. JUST WHICH JESUS DO YOU SPEAK OF WHEN SPing? cd: I believe that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the son of God who came to earth to first teach us a more correct way (truth) and then to die on a tree for the sins of the whole world to pay God redemption price for mankind. He was divine in words, nature, and character. He was God who gave up dwelling as a spirit to take on a lower form in order to die as a spirit cannot die but the flesh can.After death He still exists in the form of a body but not one of flesh (corruption)as the price paid forever marked him also-to I believe towards his eternal glory as we will view those marks in his body. I don't believe it to be possible that God would cease to exist in his spirit nature so while he was in earthly form He had to also exist in heavenly form. This mediator (go between God and man)must exist in both forms in order to relate one to the other. In other words Christ knows what we are capable in doing and what we are capable of overcoming-therefore there will be no excuse.I hope this helps y ou understand my beliefs Lance. --- Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 17:42 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 10:07:54 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Divine = God cd: Lance Webster puts it this way-Note that Christ fits many of the below definitions. DIVINE, a. [L., a god.] 1. Pertaining to the true God; as the divine nature; divine perfections. 2. Pertaining to a heathen deity, or to false gods. 3. Partaking of the nature of God. Half human, half divine. 4. Proceeding from God; as divine judgments. 5. Godlike; heavenly; excellent in the highest degree; extraordinary; apparently above what is human. In this application the word admits of comparison; as a divine invention; a divine genius; the divinest mind. A divine sentence is in the lips of the king. Prov 16. 6. Presageful; foreboding; prescient. [Not used.] 7. Appropriated to God, or celebrating his praise; as divine service; divine songs; divine worship. DIVINE, n. 1. A minister of the gospel; a
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Yeah, I have heard that before. And I could haveknit-picked his list of propositions, but didn't think it necessary, considering the fact that I do not believewe will ever be God. Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:53 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE cd: Bill one of the Mormons prophets Alfonso Snow wrote: As God was so are we as God is we will be. I think this is close on name and quote if not forgive my mistake-Mormons consider themselves god's inthe embryonic stage and that Jesus is the God of this world-as they will grow and be gods of their own worlds. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 3:16:56 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE DH So.what do you perceive to be the limitations that prevent us from becoming like God? He is God and we are not. Bill - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE DAVEH As you know, the LDS believe that mortals can become like God. I assume you agree with the following. We can become perfect (in a complete sense) like God. We can know the difference between good and evil. We can become one with him, as he (Jesus) is one with his Father. We will eventually be resurrected like him. So.what do you perceive to be the limitations that prevent us from becoming like God?Taylor wrote: If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
My mother always said "To err is human, to forgive divine" so I am sure Dean has divine thoughts I've seen his public forgiveness right on TT On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:13:41 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So that I know for sure what you mean to convey, let me ask you: do you as a human have "divine thoughts"? Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:40 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE cd: Yes we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 1:53:48 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:34 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 6:49:49 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Dean:I'd ask of you what I asked of DM, namely, outline your own position regarding 'who Jesus is' rather than just picking around the edges of other's comments concerning 'who Jesus is'. JUST WHICH JESUS DO YOU SPEAK OF WHEN SPing? cd: I believe that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the son of God who came to earth to first teach us a more correct way (truth) and then to die on a tree for the sins of the whole world to pay God redemption price for mankind. He was divine in words, nature, and character. He was God who gave up dwelling as a spirit to take on a lower form in order to die as a spirit cannot die but the flesh can.After death He still exists in the form of a body but not one of flesh (corruption)as the price paid forever marked him also-to I believe towards his eternal glory as we will view those marks in his body. I don't believe it to be possible that God would cease to exist in his spirit nature so while he was in earthly form He had to also exist in heavenly form. This mediator (go between God and man)must exist in both forms in order to relate one to the other. In other words Christ knows what we are capable in doing and what we are capable of overcoming-therefore there will be no excuse.I hope this helps y ou understand my beliefs Lance. --- Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 17:42 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 10:07:54 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Divine = God cd: Lance Webster puts it this way-Note that Christ fits many of the below definitions. DIVINE, a. [L., a god.] 1. Pertaining to the true God; as the divine nature; divine perfections. 2. Pertaining to a heathen deity, or to false gods. 3. Partaking of the nature of God. Half human, half divine. 4. Proceeding from God; as divine judgments. 5. Godlike; heavenly; excellent in the highest degree; extraordinary; apparently above what is human.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
No arguments with that, Judy. Now let's see what Dean thinks about his thoughts. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE My mother always said "To err is human, to forgive divine" so I am sure Dean has divine thoughts I've seen his public forgiveness right on TT On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:13:41 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So that I know for sure what you mean to convey, let me ask you: do you as a human have "divine thoughts"? Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:40 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE cd: Yes we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 1:53:48 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:34 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 6:49:49 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Dean:I'd ask of you what I asked of DM, namely, outline your own position regarding 'who Jesus is' rather than just picking around the edges of other's comments concerning 'who Jesus is'. JUST WHICH JESUS DO YOU SPEAK OF WHEN SPing? cd: I believe that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the son of God who came to earth to first teach us a more correct way (truth) and then to die on a tree for the sins of the whole world to pay God redemption price for mankind. He was divine in words, nature, and character. He was God who gave up dwelling as a spirit to take on a lower form in order to die as a spirit cannot die but the flesh can.After death He still exists in the form of a body but not one of flesh (corruption)as the price paid forever marked him also-to I believe towards his eternal glory as we will view those marks in his body. I don't believe it to be possible that God would cease to exist in his spirit nature so while he was in earthly form He had to also exist in heavenly form. This mediator (go between God and man)must exist in both forms in order to relate one to the other. In other words Christ knows what we are capable in doing and what we are capable of overcoming-therefore there will be no excuse.I hope this helps y ou understand my beliefs Lance. --- Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 17:42 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 10:07:54 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Divine = God cd: Lance Webster puts it this way-Note that Christ fits many of the below definitions.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Dean's a Momma's boy--eh? On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 15:46:18 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No arguments with that, Judy. Now let's see what Dean thinks about his thoughts. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE My mother always said "To err is human, to forgive divine" so I am sure Dean has divine thoughts I've seen his public forgiveness right on TT On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:13:41 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So that I know for sure what you mean to convey, let me ask you: do you as a human have "divine thoughts"? Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:40 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE cd: Yes we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 1:53:48 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:34 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 6:49:49 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Dean:I'd ask of you what I asked of DM, namely, outline your own position regarding 'who Jesus is' rather than just picking around the edges of other's comments concerning 'who Jesus is'. JUST WHICH JESUS DO YOU SPEAK OF WHEN SPing? cd: I believe that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the son of God who came to earth to first teach us a more correct way (truth) and then to die on a tree for the sins of the whole world to pay God redemption price for mankind. He was divine in words, nature, and character. He was God who gave up dwelling as a spirit to take on a lower form in order to die as a spirit cannot die but the flesh can.After death He still exists in the form of a body but not one of flesh (corruption)as the price paid forever marked him also-to I believe towards his eternal glory as we will view those marks in his body. I don't believe it to be possible that God would cease to exist in his spirit nature so while he was in earthly form He had to also exist in heavenly form. This mediator (go between God and man)must exist in both forms in order to relate one to the other. In other words Christ knows what we are capable in doing and what we are capable of overcoming-therefore there will be no excuse.I hope this helps y ou understand my beliefs Lance. --- Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 17:42 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 10:07:54
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
"..God, by his providence, curbs the perverseness of nature, preventing it from breaking forth into action, yet without rendering it inwardly pure" --J. Calvin, c.1531 On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:43:02 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dean's a Momma's boy--eh? On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 15:46:18 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No arguments with that, Judy. Now let's see what Dean thinks about his thoughts. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE My mother always said "To err is human, to forgive divine" so I am sure Dean has divine thoughts I've seen his public forgiveness right on TT On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:13:41 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So that I know for sure what you mean to convey, let me ask you: do you as a human have "divine thoughts"? Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:40 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE cd: Yes we agree if you view the Human part to also have divine thoughts. - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 1:53:48 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:34 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/15/2006 6:49:49 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Dean:I'd ask of you what I asked of DM, namely, outline your own position regarding 'who Jesus is' rather than just picking around the edges of other's comments concerning 'who Jesus is'. JUST WHICH JESUS DO YOU SPEAK OF WHEN SPing? cd: I believe that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the son of God who came to earth to first teach us a more correct way (truth) and then to die on a tree for the sins of the whole world to pay God redemption price for mankind. He was divine in words, nature, and character. He was God who gave up dwelling as a spirit to take on a lower form in order to die as a spirit cannot die but the flesh can.After death He still exists in the form of a body but not one of flesh (corruption)as the price paid forever marked him also-to I believe towards his eternal glory as we will view those marks in his body. I don't believe it to be possible that God would cease to exist in his spirit nature so while he was in earthly form He had to also exist in heavenly form. This mediator (go between God and man)must exist in both forms in order to relate one to the other. In other words Christ knows what we are capable in doing and what we are capable of overcoming-therefore there will be no excuse.I hope this helps y ou understand my beliefs Lance. --- Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
He is God and we are not. DAVEH: In a previous post, you had answered No. when I asked you if you believe we have divine roots. I realize that we are not God, but yet I believe there is a relationship we can have with God that encourages us to become like him. I assume you do not recognize that relationshipis that correct? So, how do you perceive becoming one of the sons of God.do you believe you fit into that category, Bill? And if so, what does it mean to you? Taylor wrote: DH So.what do you perceive to be the limitations that prevent us from becoming like God? He is God and we are not. Bill - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:11 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE DAVEH As you know, the LDS believe that mortals can become like God. I assume you agree with the following. We can become perfect (in a complete sense) like God. We can know the difference between good and evil. We can become one with him, as he (Jesus) is one with his Father. We will eventually be resurrected like him. So.what do you perceive to be the limitations that prevent us from becoming like God? Taylor wrote: If I understand you correctly, Dean, you believe that Christ whilewalking thisearth was fully God. I DO TOO. And if I understand you correctly, you also believe that Christ while on this earth was fully human. I DO TOO. Bill -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Judy, rightly IMO, has oft spoken of the disconnect that may take place between theologizing and godliness. Conversely, as illustrated in this post by Bill, a more thoroughgoing teaching, along with the apprehension, of the Trinitarian Nature of God ought to issue in that which Jt speaks of. (i.e. godliness) - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 07:18 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] love and trinity BillT wrote: The oneness of God is therefore not a number nearly so much as it is a unity: theunifying love of God in koinonia -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. DAVEH responds: Any room for individuals in that equation?..The oneness of God is thereforeFather, Son, Holy Spirit Bill. Well, yes and no, DH. I am included in that circle oflove in the way that Christ's humanity is included in that relationship. Butas the humanity of Christ is not divine, neitheram I divine. What I am is included in the humanity of the divine Christ and thus included in the eternal fellowship and community of the Son with the Father in the Holy Spirit. Andbecause of the inseparable unionof theperson of Christ, his humanity with his divinity, I will forever be included in the loving union of the Trinity, the oneness of God. Good question, though, Bill - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 10:41 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] love and trinity .Does that work in your theological paradigm?Taylor wrote: Moreover, John, if God is love and God isalso asingularity, like many people think of "one" in the statement "God is one," then the greatest human _expression_ of that love would be narcissism: extreme self love; for that would be to exemplify the love of God. Instead, God is "one" -- and has been from eternity-- precisely because of the other-centeredlove which exists between the Father for the Son and the Son for the Fatherin the Holy Spirit. The oneness of God is therefore not a number nearly so much as it is a unity: theunifying love of God in koinonia -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Good insight, Dude, I mean Bish;you're on a roll. Bill-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
I don't know about all that Lance. What exact part of him are you calling "his humanity" Is it the body or the soul? Also what exactly is a "trinitarian nature?" These are brand new terms someone has come up with. Could this be called "adding to the Word of Truth?" On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:39:32 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy, rightly IMO, has oft spoken of the disconnect that may take place between theologizing and godliness. Conversely, as illustrated in this post by Bill, a more thoroughgoing teaching, along with the apprehension, of the Trinitarian Nature of God ought to issue in that which Jt speaks of. (i.e. godliness) - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 07:18 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] love and trinity BillT wrote: The oneness of God is therefore not a number nearly so much as it is a unity: theunifying love of God in koinonia -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. DAVEH responds: Any room for individuals in that equation?..The oneness of God is thereforeFather, Son, Holy Spirit Bill. Well, yes and no, DH. I am included in that circle oflove in the way that Christ's humanity is included in that relationship. Butas the humanity of Christ is not divine, neitheram I divine. What I am is included in the humanity of the divine Christ and thus included in the eternal fellowship and community of the Son with the Father in the Holy Spirit. Andbecause of the inseparable unionof theperson of Christ, his humanity with his divinity, I will forever be included in the loving union of the Trinity, the oneness of God. Good question, though, Bill - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 10:41 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] love and trinity .Does that work in your theological paradigm?Taylor wrote: Moreover, John, if God is love and God isalso asingularity, like many people think of "one" in the statement "God is one," then the greatest human _expression_ of that love would be narcissism: extreme self love; for that would be to exemplify the love of God. Instead, God is "one" -- and has been from eternity-- precisely because of the other-centeredlove which exists between the Father for the Son and the Son for the Fatherin the Holy Spirit. The oneness of God is therefore not a number nearly so much as it is a unity: theunifying love of God in koinonia -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Good insight, Dude, I mean Bish;you're on a roll. Bill-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
On employing 'non-biblical' terminology when speaking of WHO Jesus is: Insofar as the language one chooses accurately reflects the subject under discussion it may be viewed as legitimate, helpful and, even necessary. May I ask that anyone responding to the above take the time to outline their own position on this. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 08:53 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE I don't know about all that Lance. What exact part of him are you calling "his humanity" Is it the body or the soul? Also what exactly is a "trinitarian nature?" These are brand new terms someone has come up with. Could this be called "adding to the Word of Truth?" On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:39:32 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy, rightly IMO, has oft spoken of the disconnect that may take place between theologizing and godliness. Conversely, as illustrated in this post by Bill, a more thoroughgoing teaching, along with the apprehension, of the Trinitarian Nature of God ought to issue in that which Jt speaks of. (i.e. godliness) - Original Message - From: Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 07:18 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] love and trinity BillT wrote: The oneness of God is therefore not a number nearly so much as it is a unity: theunifying love of God in koinonia -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. DAVEH responds: Any room for individuals in that equation?..The oneness of God is thereforeFather, Son, Holy Spirit Bill. Well, yes and no, DH. I am included in that circle oflove in the way that Christ's humanity is included in that relationship. Butas the humanity of Christ is not divine, neitheram I divine. What I am is included in the humanity of the divine Christ and thus included in the eternal fellowship and community of the Son with the Father in the Holy Spirit. Andbecause of the inseparable unionof theperson of Christ, his humanity with his divinity, I will forever be included in the loving union of the Trinity, the oneness of God. Good question, though, Bill - Original Message - From: Dave Hansen To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 10:41 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] love and trinity .Does that work in your theological paradigm?Taylor wrote: Moreover, John, if God is love and God isalso asingularity, like many people think of "one" in the statement "God is one," then the greatest human _expression_ of that love would be narcissism: extreme self love; for that would be to exemplify the love of God. Instead, God is "one" -- and has been from eternity-- precisely because of the other-centeredlove which exists between the Father for the Son and the Son for the Fatherin the Holy Spirit. The oneness of God is therefore not a number nearly so much as it is a unity: theunifying love of God in koinonia -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Good insight, Dude, I mean Bish;you're on a roll. Bill-- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
there's something toLance's 'equation', below, carefully put;but, 'equation' is a loadedconcept as DaveH knows || On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:39:32 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy, rightly IMO, has oft spoken of the disconnect that may take place between theologizing and godliness. Conversely, as illustrated in this post by Bill, a more thoroughgoing teaching, along with the apprehension, of the Trinitarian Nature of God ought to issue in that which Jt speaks of. (i.e. godliness) BillT wrote: The oneness of God is therefore not a number nearly so much as it is a unity: theunifying love of God in koinonia -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. DAVEH responds: Any room for individuals in that equation?.. ..Hell, it sounds like you need plenty ofroom forindividuals in that equation On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:37:31 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..sorry, without more greater revelation it really seems kinda hard to tell, Bro On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:33:51 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..or was that onea his other mothers? On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:19:45 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..his real Momma was a 'goddess', eh? On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:12:03 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..how 'boutJCs real Momma--how'd she handle herself? On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:08:50 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..his Momma wasn'tone Hell of a porn star was she? On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:03:01 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..JC wasn'tborn again, was he? On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:56:56 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JC was born in heaven, but not on earth, eh? On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:48:22 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: g:is the ff. greater revelationbasic tomarriageadultery polygamy or pornography? which is which? "God [age: unknowable ] is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children "The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus" "God had sexual relations with Mary [age: ~14
RE: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Well, yes and no, DH. I am included in that circle oflove in the way that Christ's humanity is included in that relationship. Butas the humanity of Christ is not divine, neitheram I divine. cd: Lance at this point-How do you define "Divine"?
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Divine = God - Original Message - From: Dean Moore To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 09:59 Subject: RE: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Well, yes and no, DH. I am included in that circle oflove in the way that Christ's humanity is included in that relationship. Butas the humanity of Christ is not divine, neitheram I divine. cd: Lance at this point-How do you define "Divine"?
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
good question in context, Bro On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:59:08 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, yes and no, DH. I am included in that circle oflove in the way that Christ's humanity is included in that relationship. Butas the humanity of Christ is not divine, neitheram I divine. cd: Lance at this point-How do you define "Divine"?
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Dean, I think this is where "theology" gets itself tied in knots. This is what JD has been accusing me of for so long. Howironic that his mentor Bill would write something like this. I think Lance just repeated it to qualify something. So their Jesus must have a schism in his personality (or nature). What about his saying to Philip"If you have seen meyou have seen the Father" We know he wasn't speaking of his physical body here; so does God The Father also have a schismatic personality. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:59:08 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, yes and no, DH. I am included in that circle oflove in the way that Christ's humanity is included in that relationship. Butas the humanity of Christ is not divine, neitheram I divine. cd: Lance at this point-How do you define "Divine"?
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
Dean, I think this is where "theology" gets itself tied in knots. This is what JD has been accusing me of for so long. Howironic that his mentor Bill would write something like this. I think Lance just repeated it to qualify something. So their Jesus must have a schism in his personality (or nature). What about his saying to Philip"If you have seen meyou have seen the Father" We know he wasn't speaking of his physical body here; so does God The Father also have a split personality? On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 09:59:08 -0500 "Dean Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, yes and no, DH. I am included in that circle oflove in the way that Christ's humanity is included in that relationship. Butas the humanity of Christ is not divine, neitheram I divine. cd: Lance at this point-How do you define "Divine"?
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE
- Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 10:07:54 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] love and trinity THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST IS NOT DIVINE Divine = God cd: Lance Webster puts it this way-Note that Christ fits many of the below definitions. DIVINE, a. [L., a god.] 1. Pertaining to the true God; as the divine nature; divine perfections. 2. Pertaining to a heathen deity, or to false gods. 3. Partaking of the nature of God. Half human, half divine. 4. Proceeding from God; as divine judgments. 5. Godlike; heavenly; excellent in the highest degree; extraordinary; apparently above what is human. In this application the word admits of comparison; as a divine invention; a divine genius; the divinest mind. A divine sentence is in the lips of the king. Prov 16. 6. Presageful; foreboding; prescient. [Not used.] 7. Appropriated to God, or celebrating his praise; as divine service; divine songs; divine worship. DIVINE, n. 1. A minister of the gospel; a priest; a clergyman. The first divines of New England were surpassed by none in extensive erudition, personal sanctity, and diligence in the pastoral office. 2. A man skilled in divinity; a theologian; as a great divine. DIVINE, v.t. [L.] 1. To foreknow; to foretell; to presage. Darst thou divine his downfall? 2. To deify. [Not in use.] DIVINE, v.i. 1. To use or practice divination. 2. To utter presages or prognostications. The prophets thereof divine for money. Micah 3. 3. To have presages or forebodings. Suggest but truth to my divining thoughts-- 4. To guess or conjecture. Could you divine what lovers bear.