[ubuntu-marketing] Marketing material needs a home

[Tord Jansson]

Hi there,

I'm new to this list since about 12 hours so let me just give a quick 
introduction and then cut straight to the chase.

My name is Tord Jansson, I'm 33 years old and live in a mid-sized 
Swedish town called Norrköping. CTO for a small software company by day, 
dedicated Ubuntu advocate by night (or mostly evenings, mornings and 
weekends to be precise).

Two months ago I started a personal crusade to market Ubuntu in my local 
town and build up a strong local user base. I acknowledge this will take 
time and persistence and I hope to see some tangible results 2-3 years 
down the line with a local and very active Ubuntu-club.

My first step was to create some adverts and posters to put on public 
noticeboards around town. So far I have made 5 different adverts/posters 
and of the first one I have now put up more than 200 copies in mostly 
building entrances. I expect to at least double that before the end of 
the summer. The rest of the posters are being saved for future activities.

The posters are currently in Swedish only, but I have put them all in a 
zip-archive reachable from this URL if you want to take a look:

http://www.savefile.com/files/1600643

They have all been made in Scribus and the "source code" for all except 
number five is reachable from this page:

http://www.savefile.com/projects/808633832

Sorry about the advertisement and crap you will have to step through...



Anyway, my reasons for posting this to your mailing-list are the following:

1. I believe these adverts can be useful to many more than myself once 
they have been translated to English. Decent marketing material for 
Ubuntu seems with a few exceptions to be hard to find.

2. I will need help to translate these to English. I can make a fully 
understandable translation myself but the text will need to be polished 
afterwards so it reaches the right professional marketing level. Any 
volunteers?

3. I need a good place to store these adverts and any future material I 
make. Preferably it should be a shared place where marketing material 
from various sources is gathered, scrutinized by a community, 
categorized and provided for easy download. I believe that is one of the 
goals with the Ubuntu-marketing team, so what are the plans and has work 
been started on a site like that? Is there any interim solution that is 
recommended?

4. I want feedback on my work (although this might be hard to give until 
I have translated the texts). Tell me whether you agree or disagree on 
the way I market Ubuntu. Is it too confrontational? too careful? too 
much text? too little information? focusing on the wrong things? I want 
my adverts to reflect the spirit of the Ubuntu community while at the 
same time being catchy and fun. Most of all they should just do the job 
of informing people of Ubuntu in a honest and interesting way. All 
feedback is welcome.

5. I'll be happy to discuss grass-root marketing tactics and pool 
resources with anyone doing the same in their local community. I 
understand a lot of that will happen here, right?


Anyway, keep up the good work everyone. Ubuntu is a great distribution 
and I'm personally convinced that it just needs some more public 
exposure and mindshare to really take off.

Regards,
Tord Jansson
Norrköping, Sweden



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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[Robert McWilliam]

On Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 08:22:20PM -0500, John Botscharow wrote:
> > Have you considered or tried speech generation?
> 
> I have used voice chat on other chat programs, but not in Linux. Not
> sure how to set it up and it would only work if everyone in the room
> used it :o) That's probably asking a bit much.

There exists software to turn the text that other people are sending
into speech. I'm not sure how well it'll keep up with IRC but might
help (and it is probably worth slowing meetings down so that it could
keep up if it can't).

http://live.gnome.org/Orca

 Robert 


Robert McWilliam [EMAIL PROTECTED]www.ormiret.com

Instructions should be read first, or not at all.
Anything else is admitting defeat...

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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Looking for geek/Linux themed comics

[Paul Bartell]

Yeah. I guess i was meaning to say somewhat linux-ish.

Eler seems to be in a state of non-updating.

You might talk to the people at http://www.hackettandbankwell.com/ . I
dont know how much extra time the artist has (met him at the LUG) but
it might be something worth looking at.

On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 6:52 PM, Brian Burger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 4:46 PM, Paul Bartell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Xkcd is somewhat geek-oriented, and might work.
>
> Also, Everyone Loves Eric Raymond (ELER), although it hasn't been
> updated in ages. Printing the back catalog of ELER in Full Circle
> could keep you busy for a while, though.
>
> As for the awesome xkcd - only "somewhat geek-oriented"? A great deal
> more than 'somewhat': http://xkcd.com/424/
>
> Brian
>
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Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Like an
unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its
vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his
objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the
ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the
false with the true." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Looking for geek/Linux themed comics

[Brian Burger]

On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 4:46 PM, Paul Bartell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Xkcd is somewhat geek-oriented, and might work.

Also, Everyone Loves Eric Raymond (ELER), although it hasn't been
updated in ages. Printing the back catalog of ELER in Full Circle
could keep you busy for a while, though.

As for the awesome xkcd - only "somewhat geek-oriented"? A great deal
more than 'somewhat': http://xkcd.com/424/

Brian

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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[John Botscharow]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:24:13 +0800
Onno Benschop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> I think that the flurry of emails generated on this topic of
> leadership is evidence that this is not a simple issue and that great
> philosophical gaps exist in methodology.

OR had we taken the bull by the horns, the activity would never have
happened.
> 
> I think that you misunderstand and under appreciate the respect the
> team has for your contributions, though personally, I think religion
> is not helping your argument and it puts me off.

Not at all and I do appreciate that, but to me, it is a contribution I
wish I did not need to make. :-) I would rather make my contributions
in other areas, which will have to wait until after we get this issue
resolved.
> 
> I think that you have a fundamental obstacle to overcome, one where
> you understand that "If you do unto others as you would like done to
> you." and you build contributions built on that, you will be listened
> to, evaluated, commented upon and respected. Your initial FCM
> submission was a great example of this. I strongly urge you to take
> into account the feedback you received and publish a new draft. I
> personally will commit to reading it and commenting upon it, but you
> should realise that there is no requirement for me, or any other team
> member to do so.

I am aware of all that, and in the same vein, there is no requirement
for me to even post it here. I did that because of my respect for the
people in this group. What I wrote was my opinion, and that has not
changed substantially. I will take your suggestion into consideration,
but I am not promising anything. I am a firm believer in the right of
free speech, yours, mine and everyone else's and in our right to agree
to disagree. So let's agree to disagree and leave it there for now.

As for making contributions to this team that are commensurate with my
abilities, well, I am a writer, and have written a lot - several
hundred - articles on marketing theory and how-tos which I am adding to
my personal wiki. I had hoped to put them in the team wiki as
resources, but given the feedback I got - most of it "negative" - I
decided to put it on my personal wiki. Anyone who wants to come read
them is most welcome and I will gladly answer any questions or comments
about them. Feel free to contact me personally - just use a pgp
signature or I might think your message is spam, if I do not recognize
your name. 

I am going back to not talking on here on this subject any more.
I've said my piece and feel no further need to repeat myself. 
> 
>
> I confess that I underestimated the level of passion the various
> proponents brought to the discussion.

Passion is an important element of marketing, as the early Mac
evangelists proved. It was their passion that drove the Mac marketing
campaign. And if we are to even begin to complete with Windows and
their hired guns, we will need a whole lot more passion than you've
seen on this list. A whole lot more. 


- -- 
Peace!

John
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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[John Botscharow]

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On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:03:33 +0800
Onno Benschop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 09/06/08 18:23, John Botscharow wrote:
> >
> > RE: IRC Chat issues

> >
> > John
> Have you considered or tried speech generation?

I have used voice chat on other chat programs, but not in Linux. Not
sure how to set it up and it would only work if everyone in the room
used it :o) That's probably asking a bit much.
> 
> As for large group dynamics, I disagree. #ubuntu is a huge room with
> 1200 people where people are being helped all the time. Not all
> questions are answered, but if you help before you ask and ask
> appropriate questions, you have a great chance of being assisted.
> 
> There are meeting methods where all speakers in IRC are muted and only
> the chair can allow people to talk, but it completely stifles the flow
> of discussion. The great thing about IRC is that each voice is as loud
> as every other voice, that means that you can all sit around a large
> round table and hear all the things being said, rather than only hear
> the few people near to you or loud enough.
> 
1200 people all typing at the same time!? That's scares the daylights
out of me. LOL I think I'll stick to lists for technical help LOL

- -- 
Peace!

John
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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[Onno Benschop]

On 09/06/08 20:50, Pierre Vorhagen wrote:
> [..] we discussed
> a lot on IRC, we are waiting for Onno to report it on the Wiki (no
> stress of course, didn't want to say that at all ;-) and let members
> that were not on IRC comment it, to see how we go along. Then we will
> move on.

Bruno and I are working on it. It's a big job that comprises two and a
half hours of transcript that needs to be summarised in a fair and
balanced way. The logs are available now if you wish to read the raw
transcript:

* http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/06/07/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
* http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/06/08/%23ubuntu-meeting.html


Or if you prefer raw text:

* http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/06/07/%23ubuntu-meeting.txt
* http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/06/08/%23ubuntu-meeting.txt



-- 
Onno Benschop

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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[Onno Benschop]

On 10/06/08 01:58, John Botscharow wrote:
> Leadership rose, like cream, to the top at the meeting - the people
> that showed up - but then "do it later" set in.
I think you do yourself and the team a great disservice with the second
part of this comment.

I think that the flurry of emails generated on this topic of leadership
is evidence that this is not a simple issue and that great philosophical
gaps exist in methodology.

I think that you misunderstand and under appreciate the respect the team
has for your contributions, though personally, I think religion is not
helping your argument and it puts me off.

I think that you have a fundamental obstacle to overcome, one where you
understand that "If you do unto others as you would like done to you."
and you build contributions built on that, you will be listened to,
evaluated, commented upon and respected. Your initial FCM submission was
a great example of this. I strongly urge you to take into account the
feedback you received and publish a new draft. I personally will commit
to reading it and commenting upon it, but you should realise that there
is no requirement for me, or any other team member to do so.

It was with the foreknowledge that the discussion we are having today,
or rather, since the meeting, that I wrote during the meeting these words:

[TOPIC] Team Structure
Onto the Team Structure. This item is quite large and I've left it
until now because we needed to understand a little about who we are
and what we do.
In order to determine the structure, we have several proposals that
include a number of roles and titles.
While for some that provides a handy reference, others feel that
such things impose too much of a Chiefs and Indians division.
Comments?


I confess that I underestimated the level of passion the various
proponents brought to the discussion.


-- 
Onno Benschop

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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[Onno Benschop]

On 09/06/08 18:23, John Botscharow wrote:
>
> RE: IRC Chat issues
>
> For me, the problem is not one of configuration, but rather the speed of
> the conversation I used to be a speed reader, but now I have to read
> quite slowly because of my vision problems - macular degeneration to be
> specific. I literally have a hole in my vision and need to read
> everything slowly to be sure I do not miss anything. IRC works well for
> me for one-on-one conversations but anything more than that, I cannot
> read fast enough to keep up. And the fact that I am not a speed typist
> only compounds the issue
>
> The color scheme on XChat is usable, not perfect, but I think I can fix
> that with a little playing around in the preferences, but that will
> still not fix the real issue. At the meeting there were numerous
> instances where I would have liked to contributed my comments but the
> conversation went by so fast, that by the time I got something typed we
> had already gone on to the next topic. I don't think there is a software
> fix for my problem, but not being an expert in software, I could be
> wrong. If anyone has any suggestions I am open to them.
>
> Just for the record, I am using Xubuntu 8.04 on a small HP Pavilion
> Slimline with 512 Megs of RAM, a 1.75 MHz Pentium III O think. I use the
> Xfce4 dusk theme because that gives me, pretty much, the color scheme I
> need to see things well. I have tried using KDE apps, even a full-blown
> Kubuntu desktop, but have never gotten the color scheme even close to
> what I need.
>
> IMHO, IRC does not work for large group dynamics. We need some sort of
> meeting room software like my son;s former online school uses for their
> study halls and club meetings. I can't recall the name of the script off
> the top of my head, but people had to "raise their hands" in order to
> speak and the room was somewhat moderated in order to give everyone a
> fair chance to talk. It was web based and involved a small Java applet
> download. The pace was much slower, and more organized - less of a free
> for all.
> -
> Peace!
>
> John
Have you considered or tried speech generation?

As for large group dynamics, I disagree. #ubuntu is a huge room with
1200 people where people are being helped all the time. Not all
questions are answered, but if you help before you ask and ask
appropriate questions, you have a great chance of being assisted.

There are meeting methods where all speakers in IRC are muted and only
the chair can allow people to talk, but it completely stifles the flow
of discussion. The great thing about IRC is that each voice is as loud
as every other voice, that means that you can all sit around a large
round table and hear all the things being said, rather than only hear
the few people near to you or loud enough.

-- 
Onno Benschop

Connected via Optus B3 at S31°54'06" - E115°50'39" (Yokine, WA)
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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Ubuntu Gnome feature shortage making marketing Ubuntu to nontechnical people difficult

[Onno Benschop]

On 09/06/08 22:12, Albert Roy wrote:
> Hi All,
>
>
> I am a semi literate computer user who is working to promote FOSS
> alternatives to proprietary solutions. I use PcLinuxOs and Ubuntu as
> they are the most user friendly distributions and I am able to serve
> much of my computing needs with these FOSS solutions. I find my
> ability to convince those with less knowledge then me to follow
> hampered by seemingly unimportant stuff.
>
> One such difficulty is the absence of a tick box in Gnome preventing
> users from accidentally sliding panels around. Its absence makes it
> impossible to set up Ubuntu for non technical users. I frequently find
> myself dragging panels around by accident, to me they are just an
> irritant but to less interested computer users it means that the
> computer is broken. I am being called on to fix the computers of
> family members who are serving as Ubuntu usability guinea pigs,
> telling them to drag the panel back into place is to much of a
> technical challenge. They just do not care about computers and they
> are resisting any attempts I make to get them to understand a tiny bit
> more about the tools they are using. Gnome being "almost there" in the
> usability stakes does not cut it with this unsympathetic crowd.
>
> I am passing this observation on to you so that you can pass it up the
> command chain. It is a marketing problem that can easily be solved. (
> I am now in the process of installing Pessulus but a "lock panel
> position" tick box in the panel properties page, is what is really
> needed.)
>
>
> Yours
>
> Albert Roy
>
>   
Thank you for your contribution Albert.

I confess that when I read your email, I remembered a 'lock' option in
the preferences, but I don't see it there, so perhaps my mind is playing
tricks on me.

I would also point out that the panels are just as mobile in the other
operating system that uses it, Windows.

So, yes, I share your frustration that new users get themselves into all
manner of problems, but then that's why they are new users.

Said in another way. If you give someone a push-bike and they have never
learnt to ride it, they're going to fall off, scrape their knees and if
the desire is high enough, learn to ride.

Computing is pretty similar and most times you don't scrape your knees.

Finally, if you feel that strongly about it, you might consider that
Ubuntu takes its software mostly from Debian, who in turn take it mostly
from the developers who make the software. So, you can do a number of
things:

* You could add a bug to launchpad, but I don't know how successful
  you will be in getting it resolved.
* You could look for discussions with the gnome developers on the
  subject and see what they decided.
* You could also log a bug with gnome.


As the vast majority of FOSS contributors and developers are volunteers,
there needs to be a point at which there is interest in resolving issues
as they arise.

I wish you well in your quest to achieve what you are asking for, but
personally I think your observation is valid, your solution is not.

-- 
Onno Benschop

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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Looking for geek/Linux themed comics

[Paul Bartell]

Xkcd is somewhat geek-oriented, and might work.

On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 4:33 PM, Ronnie Tucker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was thinking about putting a page of comics in to Full Circle and was
> wondering if you folks know of any good geek/Linux themed comics?
>
> Thinking of putting three, maybe four, different comics on one page.
>
> Comics need to be Creative Commons licensed, and obviously I'll link
> from the PDF to the artists site.
>
> Unless someone out there has good ideas for a comic. I can draw but my
> comedy writing skills aren't that great.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> Ronnie Tucker
> Editor, Full Circle Magainze
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.FullCircleMagazine.org
>
> MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Registered Linux User # 456627
> Registered Ubuntu User # 18227
>
>
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Random quote of the week/month/whenever i get to updating it: "Like an
unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its
vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his
objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the
ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the
false with the true." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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[ubuntu-marketing] Looking for geek/Linux themed comics

[Ronnie Tucker]

I was thinking about putting a page of comics in to Full Circle and was 
wondering if you folks know of any good geek/Linux themed comics?

Thinking of putting three, maybe four, different comics on one page.

Comics need to be Creative Commons licensed, and obviously I'll link 
from the PDF to the artists site.

Unless someone out there has good ideas for a comic. I can draw but my 
comedy writing skills aren't that great.

Thanks!

-- 
Ronnie Tucker
Editor, Full Circle Magainze

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.FullCircleMagazine.org

MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Registered Linux User # 456627
Registered Ubuntu User # 18227


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[ubuntu-marketing] Ubuntu racing car!

[Przemysław Kulczycki]

Hi!
I just wanted you to know that in Poland we have an Ubuntu racing car!
See:
http://obi.jogger.pl/2008/06/08/3-jak-sie-wozi-ubuntu/
http://wzs.jogger.pl/2008/06/01/jak-promuje-sie-ubuntu/
I don't know whose car it is, but it looks great :)
--
## Przemysław Kulczycki <<>> Azrael Nightwalker ##
# jabber: azrael[na]jabster.pl | tlen: azrael29a #
### www: http://reksio.ftj.agh.edu.pl/~azrael/ ###



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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[John Botscharow]

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Alan,

Whether the leadership is done through natural selection or election is
not really the point. The point is that there is no leadership AT ALL.
None that is recognized as such by the team or the greater Ubuntu
community. 

And as for your marketing efforts, they may have been
effective for you at the very narrow level that you choose to market
at. but would they be effective at a more global level Say with
getting on Becta's list 

Also, effective is a matter of perspective. I do not know exactly who
you marketed to or what you accomplished, so I reserve commenting on
the effectiveness of what you did. But, unless you were able to convert
a large number of Windows users to Ubuntu, from the global perspective
of Bug #1, your efforts were very limited in their effectiveness. The
purpose of marketing is to make the sale. and for Ubuntu marketing, our
effectiveness needs to be measured in the number of converts we make.
Making converts is our sale! We are not making enough sales

And don't say that is not something that the marketing team should be
involved in. because it is. We need to be involved in EVERY level of
Ubuntu marketing. This is directly related to my comments about a shift
to a more global perspective on this team.

I'm curious about something. Why did you not register any of your
marketing efforts as a team project? No one who is part of this team
should have to go it alone. But we cannot work as a team if no one
communicates what they are doing with the rest of the team or the rest
of the Ubuntu community. That is, IMHO, what being part of a team is
all about.


- -- 
Peace!

John
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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Fwd: Guide for release party

[Simon Schneebeli]

Hello Rubén,

Thanks for your comments. I saw the resources that are already available.

According to Saturday's discussion, I underline much more the outside 
marketing component of a release party which is not at all present at 
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/RunningReleaseParty

But maybe we can keep both of them, since for a small release party 
(community only) the above is rather sufficient.

Being pretty busy this week, I'm not sure whether I'll have time to 
continue working on the new draft for a release party. Help on 
completing the new draft would be welcome:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/RunningReleasePartyDraft

Regards

Simon
(glad to see that things are moving and not just discussing ;-)

---
Simon Schneebeli
078 619 31 18
---



Rubén Hubuntu a écrit :
> On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 8:33 PM, Simon Schneebeli 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
>
> Hello Rubén,
>
> Could you already set up a wiki site? I'd then progressively move
> over the text so that we can work together at it.
>
> As for the other references: I guess that organising a repository
> that contains all the marketing docs for the Locos will probably
> not be an easy task, but definitively a task that has a high priority.
>
> Thanks
>
> Simon
>
> PS: I very much like that note on http://flisol.info/ "Este sitio
> no ve bien con Internet Explorer" ;-)
>
>
> ---
> Simon Schneebeli
> 078 619 31 18
> ---
>
>
> Hi Simon,
>
> We can use the Ubuntu Wiki for that. There is a guide there already we 
> could improve:
> * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/RunningReleaseParty
>
> I put a raw dump of your work here:
> * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/RunningReleasePartyDraft
>
> I have to stress that it is better to collaborate in what is done 
> already, rather than doing it all over again!
>
> Related pages:
> * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Resources
> * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ConferenceTopTips
> * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseParty
> * https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-event-planners
> * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Campaigns/HardyRelease
>
> R.

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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[alan c]

John Botscharow wrote:
[...]
>To think that we can do effective marketing without
> leadership and structure is. to repeat myself, quite naive and will
> result in this team accomplishing nothing but lots of conversation.

I have been doing effective marketing without an elected leader in 
this team, so you see I do not have the same view.

I note there is a difference between acts of leadership and an elected 
leader. Do you have in mind that part of the future structure here 
would include an elected leader?

Without an elected leader here I have been in touch with canonical on 
occasions and used resources lent by them at my request. If I can do 
such things, then so can you John or anyone else, it does not 'need' 
an elected leader, and I will not stop doing what I want to do until 
we have one, and I find it hard to imagine what advantage I would see 
from an elected leader. There may even be disadvantages.

Suppose John that you were the elected leader? What advantage would 
there be? Why could you not state your views now without being 
elected, and If I am inspired by them I would follow. You do not need 
to be elected unless you want to use a level of coercion to be invoked.

> I apologize if this offends anyone, but like I said, this situation is
> very frustrating.

It does not offend me, I understand your frustration. I urge you to 
consider that you have a great deal of power at your disposal as an 
active member of this list, whether or not you see an elected leader 
emerge.

I put a question - how far would you follow a leader if there was a 
directive with which you disagreed? I would follow a little way, but 
not very far. I believe, I know, that aspects of leadership can 
emerge, without a situation of formal election.

I am in favour of the marketing team getting organised, starting with 
objectives, then moving to achieve the objectives. I do not find the 
idea of an elected leader in this type of group a compelling one.
-- 
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Linux user #360648

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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[alan c]

John Botscharow wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 19:03:25 +0100
> alan c <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Alan,
> 
> You, I guess, are what we in the "colonies" like to call a lone wolf.
> You are, and this is not a criticism but merely a statement of fact,
> not a team player, and that is fine.

It is an incorrect statement. I can be a teamplayer - see how long I 
have been here. I can be a leader I can be a follower. I can also do 
whatever is necessary - without an elected leader. My point is that 
such a thing is not essential.

[...]

>> The meeting was arranged, and took place without an elected leader. 
>> People attended because they wanted to, not because someone told them 
>> to. Someone had to arrange it, that is not necessarily a job of a 
>> leader. It is the job of whoever is good at doing the organising and 
>> communicating about it.
>  
> Yes, no one was elected, but without Onno's leadership at the meeting,
> we would not have gotten anything done. I do agree we do not
> necessarily need elected leaders. But if the leadership is
> self-selected, as cream rising to the top - which I feel it did at the
> meeting - that leadership has to publicly accept that responsibility,
> which is what should have happened at the meeting, but did not. Had
> that happened - had we all agreed to serve as the core marketing group
> - - "until we get killed or the team finds someone better" to paraphrase
> one of my favorite movie lines, we'd not be having this discussion.

Do we need a leader to suggest this line of discussion is not very 
fruitful?

> Instead we'd be discussing concrete actionable projects that need to be
> done to help people like you and the LoCos do a better job of marketing
> Ubuntu0 

Such projects can be named without further discussion, surely?

Lobby educators, media, Congress, etc, etc
-- 
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Linux user #360648

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[ubuntu-marketing] There is a lot to be done...

[Rubén Hubuntu]

>
> Instead we'd be discussing concrete actionable projects that need to be
> done to help people like you and the LoCos do a better job of marketing
> Ubuntu0
>

Ok. Let's start then!

Please read carefully every link I have added. The way I see it we need to
establish a starting point:

Make[0] SpreadUbuntu[1] a reality[2] for all[3] the[4] right[5] reasons[6].
The community is crying for this or something similar to happen and has for
a long[7] time[8]. If you ask me this is true for almost every single Team
and LoCo [9] I have ever had anything to do with[10].

Just today I was discussing with people here in Oslo about spreading (as in
marketing/selling) ubuntu and the lack of a material and guide resource
and/or of proper managed campaigns makes it difficult to get started and get
more people joining us in the marketing effort. In Ecuador, the same. Lack
of existence of such a central marketing place with localized (as in
translated) material gives people a hard time "selling" ubuntu to the mass
public.

You can, of course, go happy haunting and find a lot of material, but
managing those resources in an organized manner (as in using something
different than google and more like a easy access site) would make
everybody's life easier and marketing (and hence accelerating the adoption
of) Ubuntu and helping the global community a task easier to work with for
all of us.

So please, consider the REAL issues at stake here and before you answer DO
something, anything. Show what you want with ACTION! Actions speak louder
than words.

I rather see a 5-minutes mock up and effort than more talking in circles
about the same old thing: We do not agree on everything and we never will,
but we can still cooperate with each other.

Let's get started...

Next time I write to this list I will have something. Will you?

Best regards,

Rubén.
https://launchpad.net/~huayra


[0] And yes, get inspired by the best people in FLOSS at it:
http://www.spreadfirefox.com/ and creative voices between our community:
http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2008/public/schedule/detail/2674
[1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Projects/SpreadUbuntu
[2] http://www.spreadubuntu.com
[3] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/loco-contacts/2008-May/002211.html
[4] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/loco-contacts/2008-May/002228.html
[5] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/loco-contacts/2008-May/002245.html
[6] http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/category/17
[7] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WhatMarketingMeans
[8] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingPlan
[9] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-marketing/2008-June/003147.html
[10] https://edge.launchpad.net/~huayra/+participation
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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[John Botscharow]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 19:03:25 +0100
alan c <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Alan,

You, I guess, are what we in the "colonies" like to call a lone wolf.
You are, and this is not a criticism but merely a statement of fact,
not a team player, and that is fine. But no one person can do
everything that a marketing campaign on the scale that Ubuntu needs to
be marketed can do. That requires a team for reasons I have already
laid out so I won't repeat myself.

o change that.
> 
> The meeting was arranged, and took place without an elected leader. 
> People attended because they wanted to, not because someone told them 
> to. Someone had to arrange it, that is not necessarily a job of a 
> leader. It is the job of whoever is good at doing the organising and 
> communicating about it.
 
Yes, no one was elected, but without Onno's leadership at the meeting,
we would not have gotten anything done. I do agree we do not
necessarily need elected leaders. But if the leadership is
self-selected, as cream rising to the top - which I feel it did at the
meeting - that leadership has to publicly accept that responsibility,
which is what should have happened at the meeting, but did not. Had
that happened - had we all agreed to serve as the core marketing group
- - "until we get killed or the team finds someone better" to paraphrase
one of my favorite movie lines, we'd not be having this discussion.
Instead we'd be discussing concrete actionable projects that need to be
done to help people like you and the LoCos do a better job of marketing
Ubuntu0 
- -- 
Peace!

John
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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Fwd: Guide for release party

[Simon Schneebeli]

Hello Rubén,

Could you already set up a wiki site? I'd then progressively move over 
the text so that we can work together at it.

As for the other references: I guess that organising a repository that 
contains all the marketing docs for the Locos will probably not be an 
easy task, but definitively a task that has a high priority.

Thanks

Simon

PS: I very much like that note on http://flisol.info/ "Este sitio no ve 
bien con Internet Explorer" ;-)

---
Simon Schneebeli
078 619 31 18
---



Rubén Hubuntu a écrit :
> Forgot the Reply-all thing...
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: *Rubén Hubuntu* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
> Date: Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 7:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Guide for release party
> To: Simon Schneebeli <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Simon Schneebeli 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> It was nice to talk to all at the IRC chat today. Being about to
> fall asleep makes me leave before the chat ends.
>
> According to what has been discussed and with notes I've taken
> earlier, I've started a very first draft (still very early alpha
> stage) of a guide for release party organisers.
>
> Probably it would be best to set up a wiki-page for that. Unlukily
> I have no idea on how to do this. I hope that there is anyone who
> can help with this and a lot of community members who can help
> completing this with your own ideas and experiences.
>
> Input is most welcome.
>
> Regards
>
> Simon
>
>
> It looks good. I can give you a hand with the wiki, but you need to 
> help me with a different layout of the document (point to point) to 
> make it more accesible and easier to understand (and, nonetheless, put 
> in the wiki ;)
>
> So.. Remind to self:
>
> While I am at it: I have compiled some marketing material in Spanish 
> which I need to organize
>
> Organizing an InstallFest: 
> http://installfest.info/FLISOL2008/InstallfestOrganizacion
>
> A guide to create a localserver to aid installation of FLOSS in 
> events: http://installfest.info/FLISOL2008/ServidorLocal
>
> An ubuntu centric guide for this: 
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EcuadorTeam/ConferenceAppearances/FLISOL/ServidorLocal
>
> A set of presentations in Spanish: 
> http://flisol.info/FLISOL2008/Presentaciones
>
> And more presentations here: 
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EcuadorTeam/MaterialPOP/Presentaciones
>
> Sorry for this, but in that way the resources are visible to more 
> people and easier to organize by others than just Simon and me ;)
>
> Cheers,
>
> R,
> https://launchpad.net/~huayra 
>  
>
>

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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[alan c]

John Botscharow wrote:

[...]

> That is EXACTLY how I see the leadership role of the team. 


>What concerns
> me is the leadership within the team. We cannot lead Ubuntu marketing
> until we have some leadership of our own to keep us on track and moving
> forward.

I believe we can.
I do not need someone to tell me how to move forward or where to, 
although other may want that for themselves.

It is useful if minds and motives and directions are alike. A leader 
is hardly going to change that.

The meeting was arranged, and took place without an elected leader. 
People attended because they wanted to, not because someone told them 
to. Someone had to arrange it, that is not necessarily a job of a 
leader. It is the job of whoever is good at doing the organising and 
communicating about it.

If this group has a number of active participants, then  they form a 
de facto 'steering' or if you like 'leadership' group. This has its 
own leadership, and it is the sort that is self powering.

Is an elected leader going to ask (you) to stop doing something you 
are keen to do? Are they going to urge you to do more of something you 
are already keen to do? Exactly how would an elected leader operate, 
and for what benefit?

I have doubts about the real value of an elected leader in such a 
group as this. However I have no doubts at all about the value of 
leadership itself, and leadership activities. When these appear, and I 
like them, I will react positively, election or not.

-- 
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Kubuntu user#10391
Linux user #360648

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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[John Botscharow]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 09:56:02 -0500
"John Vilsack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The different extremes being voiced seem to be, "Ubuntu Community
> Marketing will fail without leadership as it has before" and
> "Leadership in FLOSS will kill individual initiative".  Why can't we
> think in terms of grey versus black or white?

I disagree here, John. The difference here is "do it now" ot "let it happen on 
its own/"
> 
> Yes, leadership naturally separates itself from the pack to assume
> roles of responsibility and with that comes the personal feeling of
> success or accomplishment.  But how many open source projects fork at
> the first lack of consensus?  If open source directives are truly
> free, then you are always going to have opinions that disagree
> regardless of how loud they might be.

Leadership rose, like cream, to the top at the meeting - the people that showed 
up - but then "do it later" set in.
> 
> Ubuntu allows for anyone to contribute and that holds true for us as
> well as it does for every other aspect of the project.  Like the
> core-developers team, a proposed core-marketing team would help
> determine our priorities, oversee tools and repositories to ensure
> that new contributions are added regularly to our "distribution" and
> be there to report back to the group instead of expecting everyone to
> listen to a cacophony of minutiae concerning each task.

I agree and it should have happened at the meeting - the core marketing team 
was there. See above comment. 
> 
> I still firmly believe that each change in direction, each major
> undertaking should seek consensus from the group.  Each new person
> joining our team should always have the freedom to do as much (or as
> little) as they want in whatever areas that they want.  All leaders
> should be responsible for making the things that we need the most
> help with more visible to those new users, so they can come in and
> make an immediate impact because they have direction and know what
> needs to be done.

As I have said earlier, consensus is a nice idea. but sometimes, and the 
meeting was one, you have to take the bull by the horns. We didn't and I fear 
we will pay for that omission before all is said and done.
> 
> PS:  I think it would be remiss for us to begin listing off C.V.s and
> historic accomplishments as a means to justify our opinions.  Some of
> the smartest people I have met in my life, and some of the ones who
> have made grand contributions throughout history have done so by
> taking their first steps.  We should judge based on initiative and
> talent, not bullet points.

If it is done for self-aggrandizement, I agree. But in the context of what Onno 
and I were discussing - the fact that our different backgrounds make for 
different perceptional frameworks, I think it was not only appropriate, but 
necessary. 


- -- 
Peace!

John
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[ubuntu-marketing] Fwd: Guide for release party

[Rubén Hubuntu]

Forgot the Reply-all thing...

-- Forwarded message --
From: Rubén Hubuntu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Guide for release party
To: Simon Schneebeli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Simon Schneebeli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> It was nice to talk to all at the IRC chat today. Being about to fall
> asleep makes me leave before the chat ends.
>
> According to what has been discussed and with notes I've taken earlier,
> I've started a very first draft (still very early alpha stage) of a guide
> for release party organisers.
>
> Probably it would be best to set up a wiki-page for that. Unlukily I have
> no idea on how to do this. I hope that there is anyone who can help with
> this and a lot of community members who can help completing this with your
> own ideas and experiences.
>
> Input is most welcome.
>
> Regards
>
> Simon


It looks good. I can give you a hand with the wiki, but you need to help me
with a different layout of the document (point to point) to make it more
accesible and easier to understand (and, nonetheless, put in the wiki ;)

So.. Remind to self:

While I am at it: I have compiled some marketing material in Spanish which I
need to organize

Organizing an InstallFest:
http://installfest.info/FLISOL2008/InstallfestOrganizacion

A guide to create a localserver to aid installation of FLOSS in events:
http://installfest.info/FLISOL2008/ServidorLocal

An ubuntu centric guide for this:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EcuadorTeam/ConferenceAppearances/FLISOL/ServidorLocal

A set of presentations in Spanish:
http://flisol.info/FLISOL2008/Presentaciones

And more presentations here:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EcuadorTeam/MaterialPOP/Presentaciones

Sorry for this, but in that way the resources are visible to more people and
easier to organize by others than just Simon and me ;)

Cheers,

R,
https://launchpad.net/~huayra 
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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[Rubén Hubuntu]

Hi John, and everyone in the list...

Answering between the lines.

On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 3:52 PM, John Botscharow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>  I'd be talking to LoCos like the UK LoCo about what needs to be
> done to get Ubuntu onto Becta's list of recommended software for schools
> in the UK. I'd be writing articles for various educational trade
> joutnals in the US touting the benefits of Edubuntu. I'd be on the phone
> to several very large online home schooling communities here in the US
> that provide curricula to home schoolers about Edubuntu. And talking to
> the LoCos that are located near those communities about putting together
> a demo for those homeschool sites.
>

There is nothing stopping anyone from starting or doing whatever they
believe is important. Around here things work that way: Get down to the
wiki, e-mail other people doing the same. Organize the available resources
in a per-mini-project basis. Get your work done!


>
> But I do not have that authority, No one person on this team does. And
> no one person on this team can do that kind of marketing campaign alone.
> It takes a team. A team with leadership. A team wjere everyone has a
> role and understands that role. Any team, whether it is a team of
> volunteers or a team of athletes, cannot function effectively without
> leadership. To think that we can do effective marketing without
> leadership and structure is. to repeat myself, quite naive and will
> result in this team accomplishing nothing but lots of conversation.
>

True, to a certain extend. I believe people with a "leading role" in this
community understand the need of action and dialogue combined. This, as I
mentioned earlier, is best described in the: Leadership Code of Conduct:

http://www.ubuntu.com/community/leadership-conduct


>
> I apologize if this offends anyone, but like I said, this situation is
> very frustrating. The potential of what we could do as a team - an
> organized team - is staggering. And, personally, I am itching to get it
> going. We can literally rock the world with this! :=)
>

John, I truly believe you are a wonderful resource to this community and
your insight, experience and depth in marketing generally combined with
other peoples experiences as well is undoubtly part of what we need as a
team, but not everything.

Bare with us, please. We are all used to a methodology and workflow and try
equally to adapt to everyone else's. But in the end we all scratch the itch
that matters most to ourselves, the idea of this team is to see which of
those itches are common and can be syncronized. That's all, we just need
management... But management must be understood within the boundaries of the
community and its members.

I feel inspiration rather than frustration in this ubuntu-marketing
evolution cycle. I believe we should stay focused and rather be positive in
every single way we can, and point out constructively tyhings that are not
progressing.

But again... I have read this list for a long time and never saw the need to
act, as I never saw real traction in the project (no offence anyone). I
believe that this cycle in the projects history is going to change that.

Let's make that become a reality and work out the technicalities one by one.


> - --
> Peace!
>
> John
>


Cheers!

Rubén - Hubuntu
https://launchpad.net/~huayra
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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[John Vilsack]

The different extremes being voiced seem to be, "Ubuntu Community Marketing
will fail without leadership as it has before" and "Leadership in FLOSS will
kill individual initiative".  Why can't we think in terms of grey versus
black or white?

Yes, leadership naturally separates itself from the pack to assume roles of
responsibility and with that comes the personal feeling of success or
accomplishment.  But how many open source projects fork at the first lack of
consensus?  If open source directives are truly free, then you are always
going to have opinions that disagree regardless of how loud they might be.

Ubuntu allows for anyone to contribute and that holds true for us as well as
it does for every other aspect of the project.  Like the core-developers
team, a proposed core-marketing team would help determine our priorities,
oversee tools and repositories to ensure that new contributions are added
regularly to our "distribution" and be there to report back to the group
instead of expecting everyone to listen to a cacophony of minutiae
concerning each task.

I still firmly believe that each change in direction, each major undertaking
should seek consensus from the group.  Each new person joining our team
should always have the freedom to do as much (or as little) as they want in
whatever areas that they want.  All leaders should be responsible for making
the things that we need the most help with more visible to those new users,
so they can come in and make an immediate impact because they have direction
and know what needs to be done.

Thanks,
John Vilsack

PS:  I think it would be remiss for us to begin listing off C.V.s and
historic accomplishments as a means to justify our opinions.  Some of the
smartest people I have met in my life, and some of the ones who have made
grand contributions throughout history have done so by taking their first
steps.  We should judge based on initiative and talent, not bullet points.
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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[John Botscharow]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

VidA wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 12:01 PM, John Botscharow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I have a theory, but you may not like it:-) A lack of a formal
>> leadership structure. Specific "offices" that are filled as they become
>> vacant.
> 
> Frankly speaking, its not entirely true that we lack leaders in
> Ubuntu. In the past too we have had good projects (SU?) but as we all
> know a project does not go forward with just chiefs/heads...it needs
> folks willing to pick up the spade and dig. Maybe that is where things
> fizzed out. In my experience with the libre software community one
> leads by example instead of waiting for stuff to get done (read, paid
> employees in the outside world).
> 
> I agree with the others, lets not hurry to elect a group of leaders
> until such time as the relationship, tasks, role, etc... with
> Canonical marketing team is mutually established. It would be nicer to
> have a synergy with them, if nothing else.
> 
> 
>> And for those on this team who are not Christians, every
>> major religion has similar history.
> 
> erm... without meaning to digress, mine[1] does not.
> 
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanatana_Dharma
> 
"Frankly speaking, its not entirely true that we lack leaders in
Ubuntu. In the past too we have had good projects (SU?) but as we all
know a project does not go forward with just chiefs/heads...it needs
folks willing to pick up the spade and dig. Maybe that is where things
fizzed out. In my experience with the libre software community one
leads by example instead of waiting for stuff to get done (read, paid
employees in the outside world).?"

We were not discussing the entire Ubuntu community, but rather the
marketing team specifically, and, from what I've been able to glean from
the discussion here as well as what research I've been able to do, the
marketing team has done very little in recent months. I may not know
much about technical issues, but I believe I understand marketing quite
well, since I have been doing it since I was 12 and have been writing
about it and researching it for nearly 20 years.

Marketing is not a one person job for something like Ubuntu, and
certainly not if you want to take on Microsoft, which is what Bug #1 is
all about. Marketing Ubuntu requires a great deal of coordination of
effort - everything from designing graphics to writing press releases to
giving presentations. An effective marketing campaign requires the
efforts of a number of people with different skills. But those efforts
have to be coordinated so that everything required for a campaign is
ready at the same time.

I am sure that the developers team has leadership that coordinates the
efforts of all the developers working on the latest release of Ubuntu as
well as coordinating with other relevant teams like Documentation to
make sure everything is ready when it is supposed to be ready. This team
has none of that.

And, since we are speaking frankly, the attitude that  it will get done
without leadership is quite naive.

"I agree with the others, lets not hurry to elect a group of leaders
until such time as the relationship, tasks, role, etc... with
Cano:nical marketing team is mutually established. It would be nicer to
have a synergy with them, if nothing else."

And who is going to do that? Who has the authority to speak for this
team in any discussions with Canonical This is putting the cart
before the horse. No one here can discuss things with Canonical until
they have some sort of authority to speak for the team. We cannot each
go off doing our own thing. If I believed that, I would not be spending
my time writing messages on this list, I'd be talking to Canonical
myself. I'd be talking to LoCos like the UK LoCo about what needs to be
done to get Ubuntu onto Becta's list of recommended software for schools
in the UK. I'd be writing articles for various educational trade
joutnals in the US touting the benefits of Edubuntu. I'd be on the phone
to several very large online home schooling communities here in the US
that provide curricula to home schoolers about Edubuntu. And talking to
the LoCos that are located near those communities about putting together
a demo for those homeschool sites.

But I do not have that authority, No one person on this team does. And
no one person on this team can do that kind of marketing campaign alone.
It takes a team. A team with leadership. A team wjere everyone has a
role and understands that role. Any team, whether it is a team of
volunteers or a team of athletes, cannot function effectively without
leadership. To think that we can do effective marketing without
leadership and structure is. to repeat myself, quite naive and will
result in this team accomplishing nothing but lots of conversation.

I apologize if this offends anyone, but like I said, this situation is
very frustrating. The potential of what we could do as a team - an
organized team - is staggering. And, perso

[ubuntu-marketing] Ubuntu Gnome feature shortage making marketing Ubuntu to nontechnical people difficult

[Albert Roy]

Hi All,


I am a semi literate computer user who is working to promote FOSS
alternatives to proprietary solutions. I use PcLinuxOs and Ubuntu as
they are the most user friendly distributions and I am able to serve
much of my computing needs with these FOSS solutions. I find my
ability to convince those with less knowledge then me to follow
hampered by seemingly unimportant stuff.

One such difficulty is the absence of a tick box in Gnome preventing
users from accidentally sliding panels around. Its absence makes it
impossible to set up Ubuntu for non technical users. I frequently find
myself dragging panels around by accident, to me they are just an
irritant but to less interested computer users it means that the
computer is broken. I am being called on to fix the computers of
family members who are serving as Ubuntu usability guinea pigs,
telling them to drag the panel back into place is to much of a
technical challenge. They just do not care about computers and they
are resisting any attempts I make to get them to understand a tiny bit
more about the tools they are using. Gnome being "almost there" in the
usability stakes does not cut it with this unsympathetic crowd.

I am passing this observation on to you so that you can pass it up the
command chain. It is a marketing problem that can easily be solved. (
I am now in the process of installing Pessulus but a "lock panel
position" tick box in the panel properties page, is what is really
needed.)


Yours

Albert Roy

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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] Making Canonical's/Ubuntu's contributions more visible

[Przemysław Kulczycki]

Matthew Nuzum pisze:

On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 4:36 AM, Przemysław Kulczycki
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Now let's get to the point.
One of the often accusations against Ubuntu is that it only takes from
other
projects (Debian, Red Hat, Novell/Suse...) and doesn't give back
anything.
Ubuntu should make it more visible for others to see what does it
contribute
to upstream/floss community.

Good. I hope something will be done about it ASAP.
Reading all those comments about Ubuntu not contributing anything is really
irritating.



Let's start a wiki page at:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/Content/UbuntuContributions

As the content on this page matures I'll sync it over to the main
ubuntu website.


I've added another point to the wiki - the recently developed Netbook 
UI. Feel free to expand it (the whole page) and add anything that needs 
mentioning.


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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[Rubén Hubuntu]

True, keep religion out of the analogy equation.

FLOSS and specially the ubuntu community is far from being a
totalitarian, Top-down movement.

In this community we have outlined a specific code of conduct for
person with responsabilities within the group. Summarized:
* lead by example
* do the dirty job
* include everyone
* be considerate
* the CoC applies to you møre

 Our progress is as much and only as much as the activity level we
generate ourselves. The more activity the more new (and old) people
participates.

Let's get working!

R

On 6/9/08, Pierre Vorhagen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I would like to add some important details to my previously explained point.
>
> "We now have the heart but we need our brain"? Since when do community
> projects need to determine a specific brain? The brain is all the
> brains, that come to consensus on the mailing list.
>
> When I talk about the necessity of a core group, I have the feeling that
> we do not exactly talk of the same thing... If I get this right, you
> want to elect and name specific people? Open Source projects do not work
> that way, it sets itself naturally...
> This makes me think about a Google TechTalk I watched some time ago...
>
> In healthy projects, certain members will naturally fall into the role
> of watching that we keep on walking in the same direction, and that
> things move on... Furthermore, I am rather surprised when I read your
> lack of trust in this way of functioning... In open source communities,
> direction is set by all the people, following their degree of
> involvement, the time they already participate and the respect the
> community has for the person. It is not a chosen elite, even if it is
> usually the same people that end up writing the general will down on
> paper...
>
> With all due respect, I find the questioning of the fundamental way that
> thousands of FOSS projects function not necessary. Yes, there _needs_ to
> be a strong central group, but surely not an elected one... we discussed
> a lot on IRC, we are waiting for Onno to report it on the Wiki (no
> stress of course, didn't want to say that at all ;-) and let members
> that were not on IRC comment it, to see how we go along. Then we will
> move on.
> That is also why we are using email. IRC is good, all direct talk
> systems are good and sometimes necessary, but only the mailing list lets
> us set up a real communitary project in my opinion. And as far as I'm
> concerned, I don't think that the Church functions like FOSS projects at
> all...
>
>
> Greetings,
> Pierre Vorhagen,
> pep.
>
>
>
>
> John Botscharow a écrit :
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Onno Benschop wrote:
>>
>>
>>> So it would be wrong to suggest that I have little or no experience with
>>> Windows - far from it.
>>>
>>
>> Well, I was basing my comments on what you said. Obviously that
>> interpretation was wrong and I apologize.
>>
>>> Don't get me wrong, I'm not insulted in any way by your comment, just
>>> that when I make a point about something, it's with a long background in
>>> this industry with the experience of being a both a radio broadcaster
>>> and producer, an IT help-desk operator and team leader, a software
>>> developer, an IT trainer and a web-developer. I started playing with
>>> databases in the dBase II era and wrote sales management systems back in
>>> the days of the Summer Edition of Clipper (for those with a sense of
>>> nostalgia :)
>>>
>>
>> My own experience goes back to 1983 when I went to work for a large
>> civic organization in Chicago as the administrative assistant for a
>> program that coordinated corporate volunteers and material donations to
>> small grass roots organizations. I have used computers ever since. The
>> point that I was trying to make is that my experience and yours are very
>> different and that gives us a very different perspective on things. And
>> I think my experience is closer to that of the people we need to target
>> than yours or many others in the Ubuntu community. A very small
>> percentage of Windows users have the level of technical expertise that
>> you do. And that is something that, IMHO, is something that the
>> discussions on this list seem to not take into account in any
>> substantive manner.
>>
>>> (That was a tad longer than I intended, but being concise has never been
>>> a strong point - I'm working on it.)
>>>
>>
>> I got you beat by a mile on that LOL
>>
>>> The other point I'd like to make is that I have to disagree with your
>>> perception of progress.
>>>
>>> I've seen many meetings that descend into rabble without any decisions
>>> being made, no common ground being reached and little or no progress
>>> having been made - our 2 and a half hour marathon session achieved lots
>>> more than I dared hope for.
>>>
>>
>> It did achieve a lot, no argument there, but, IMHO, it did not achieve
>> enough. I am beginning to think that our basic difference is that I feel
>> a sense 

Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[John Botscharow]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

VidA wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 12:01 PM, John Botscharow
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> erm... without meaning to digress, mine[1] does not.
>
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanatana_Dharma
>
Actually, if I remember correctly, and it has been awhile since I read
Weber on Hinduism, he did apply that particular theoretical construct to
explain certain phenomena and beliefs particular to Hinduism
Charisma/bureaucracy is an explanaory tool and it does help explain
certain religious social phenomena quite well  I have found it quite
useful in talking about the history of heresy in Christianity as well as
my discussions of politics. I have not had cause to use it on Hinduism
yet, but I can think of several areas related to Hindu social dynamics
where it would work quite well, but that is not appropriate for this
list, so, I won't go into details here.

- --
Peace!

John

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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[Pierre Vorhagen]

Hi,

I would like to add some important details to my previously explained point.

"We now have the heart but we need our brain"? Since when do community 
projects need to determine a specific brain? The brain is all the 
brains, that come to consensus on the mailing list.

When I talk about the necessity of a core group, I have the feeling that 
we do not exactly talk of the same thing... If I get this right, you 
want to elect and name specific people? Open Source projects do not work 
that way, it sets itself naturally...
This makes me think about a Google TechTalk I watched some time ago...

In healthy projects, certain members will naturally fall into the role 
of watching that we keep on walking in the same direction, and that 
things move on... Furthermore, I am rather surprised when I read your 
lack of trust in this way of functioning... In open source communities, 
direction is set by all the people, following their degree of 
involvement, the time they already participate and the respect the 
community has for the person. It is not a chosen elite, even if it is 
usually the same people that end up writing the general will down on 
paper...

With all due respect, I find the questioning of the fundamental way that 
thousands of FOSS projects function not necessary. Yes, there _needs_ to 
be a strong central group, but surely not an elected one... we discussed 
a lot on IRC, we are waiting for Onno to report it on the Wiki (no 
stress of course, didn't want to say that at all ;-) and let members 
that were not on IRC comment it, to see how we go along. Then we will 
move on.
That is also why we are using email. IRC is good, all direct talk 
systems are good and sometimes necessary, but only the mailing list lets 
us set up a real communitary project in my opinion. And as far as I'm 
concerned, I don't think that the Church functions like FOSS projects at 
all...


Greetings,
Pierre Vorhagen,
pep.




John Botscharow a écrit :
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Onno Benschop wrote:
>
>   
>> So it would be wrong to suggest that I have little or no experience with
>> Windows - far from it.
>> 
>
> Well, I was basing my comments on what you said. Obviously that
> interpretation was wrong and I apologize.
>   
>> Don't get me wrong, I'm not insulted in any way by your comment, just
>> that when I make a point about something, it's with a long background in
>> this industry with the experience of being a both a radio broadcaster
>> and producer, an IT help-desk operator and team leader, a software
>> developer, an IT trainer and a web-developer. I started playing with
>> databases in the dBase II era and wrote sales management systems back in
>> the days of the Summer Edition of Clipper (for those with a sense of
>> nostalgia :)
>> 
>
> My own experience goes back to 1983 when I went to work for a large
> civic organization in Chicago as the administrative assistant for a
> program that coordinated corporate volunteers and material donations to
> small grass roots organizations. I have used computers ever since. The
> point that I was trying to make is that my experience and yours are very
> different and that gives us a very different perspective on things. And
> I think my experience is closer to that of the people we need to target
> than yours or many others in the Ubuntu community. A very small
> percentage of Windows users have the level of technical expertise that
> you do. And that is something that, IMHO, is something that the
> discussions on this list seem to not take into account in any
> substantive manner.
>   
>> (That was a tad longer than I intended, but being concise has never been
>> a strong point - I'm working on it.)
>> 
>
> I got you beat by a mile on that LOL
>   
>> The other point I'd like to make is that I have to disagree with your
>> perception of progress.
>>
>> I've seen many meetings that descend into rabble without any decisions
>> being made, no common ground being reached and little or no progress
>> having been made - our 2 and a half hour marathon session achieved lots
>> more than I dared hope for.
>> 
>
> It did achieve a lot, no argument there, but, IMHO, it did not achieve
> enough. I am beginning to think that our basic difference is that I feel
> a sense of urgency about this team that you do not. I want us to "go
> forth and market" - as you so neatly put it - but we cannot until this
> team has both direction and structure. - heart and brain. We now have
> the heart, but we need our brain.
>
>
>   
>> The single thing I would like to achieve is that the marketing team does
>> not stagnate as it appears to have done in the past.
>> 
>
> Yes, and that is why we need both a heart and brain. We will stagnate
> until we have both. And, my sense of urgency says that postponing things
> is going to hurt us big time.
>   
>> >From my perception (that word again :) the team has gone through several
>> resurrections and I woul

Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[VidA]

On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 12:01 PM, John Botscharow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I have a theory, but you may not like it:-) A lack of a formal
> leadership structure. Specific "offices" that are filled as they become
> vacant.

Frankly speaking, its not entirely true that we lack leaders in
Ubuntu. In the past too we have had good projects (SU?) but as we all
know a project does not go forward with just chiefs/heads...it needs
folks willing to pick up the spade and dig. Maybe that is where things
fizzed out. In my experience with the libre software community one
leads by example instead of waiting for stuff to get done (read, paid
employees in the outside world).

I agree with the others, lets not hurry to elect a group of leaders
until such time as the relationship, tasks, role, etc... with
Canonical marketing team is mutually established. It would be nicer to
have a synergy with them, if nothing else.


> And for those on this team who are not Christians, every
> major religion has similar history.

erm... without meaning to digress, mine[1] does not.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanatana_Dharma

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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[John Botscharow]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Onno Benschop wrote:

> So it would be wrong to suggest that I have little or no experience with
> Windows - far from it.

Well, I was basing my comments on what you said. Obviously that
interpretation was wrong and I apologize.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not insulted in any way by your comment, just
> that when I make a point about something, it's with a long background in
> this industry with the experience of being a both a radio broadcaster
> and producer, an IT help-desk operator and team leader, a software
> developer, an IT trainer and a web-developer. I started playing with
> databases in the dBase II era and wrote sales management systems back in
> the days of the Summer Edition of Clipper (for those with a sense of
> nostalgia :)

My own experience goes back to 1983 when I went to work for a large
civic organization in Chicago as the administrative assistant for a
program that coordinated corporate volunteers and material donations to
small grass roots organizations. I have used computers ever since. The
point that I was trying to make is that my experience and yours are very
different and that gives us a very different perspective on things. And
I think my experience is closer to that of the people we need to target
than yours or many others in the Ubuntu community. A very small
percentage of Windows users have the level of technical expertise that
you do. And that is something that, IMHO, is something that the
discussions on this list seem to not take into account in any
substantive manner.
>
> (That was a tad longer than I intended, but being concise has never been
> a strong point - I'm working on it.)

I got you beat by a mile on that LOL
>
>
> The other point I'd like to make is that I have to disagree with your
> perception of progress.
>
> I've seen many meetings that descend into rabble without any decisions
> being made, no common ground being reached and little or no progress
> having been made - our 2 and a half hour marathon session achieved lots
> more than I dared hope for.

It did achieve a lot, no argument there, but, IMHO, it did not achieve
enough. I am beginning to think that our basic difference is that I feel
a sense of urgency about this team that you do not. I want us to "go
forth and market" - as you so neatly put it - but we cannot until this
team has both direction and structure. - heart and brain. We now have
the heart, but we need our brain.


> The single thing I would like to achieve is that the marketing team does
> not stagnate as it appears to have done in the past.

Yes, and that is why we need both a heart and brain. We will stagnate
until we have both. And, my sense of urgency says that postponing things
is going to hurt us big time.
>
>>From my perception (that word again :) the team has gone through several
> resurrections and I would love to understand what caused each of those
> to happen - so we have a chance of avoiding those pitfalls.

I have a theory, but you may not like it:-) A lack of a formal
leadership structure. Specific "offices" that are filled as they become
vacant. Consensus requires what Max Weber, the great German sociologist,
called charismatic authority - like, to use my favorite example. Jesus
during his lifetime. But once that charismatic leader is gone, the
community stagnates. until a new charismatic leader comes along, St.
Paul for instance. It was not until the appointment of the original
group of presbyters (bishops) that the early Church had anything
resembling a sense of permanence.
>

> Finally, you could think of leadership in another way, that is, the
> Ubuntu-Marketing is providing marketing leadership by using best
> practice and central resources which it makes available to the Ubuntu
> Community.

That is EXACTLY how I see the leadership role of the team. What concerns
me is the leadership within the team. We cannot lead Ubuntu marketing
until we have some leadership of our own to keep us on track and moving
forward. To use the analogy of the early Church again, Christianity did
not become a force, and ultimately the guiding force, in the Roman
Empire until it established its own leadership structure that existed
outside of the people who held those roles. Then look what it
accomplished. And for those on this team who are not Christians, every
major religion has similar history.



- --
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John

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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,

[John Botscharow]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


RE: IRC Chat issues

For me, the problem is not one of configuration, but rather the speed of
the conversation I used to be a speed reader, but now I have to read
quite slowly because of my vision problems - macular degeneration to be
specific. I literally have a hole in my vision and need to read
everything slowly to be sure I do not miss anything. IRC works well for
me for one-on-one conversations but anything more than that, I cannot
read fast enough to keep up. And the fact that I am not a speed typist
only compounds the issue

The color scheme on XChat is usable, not perfect, but I think I can fix
that with a little playing around in the preferences, but that will
still not fix the real issue. At the meeting there were numerous
instances where I would have liked to contributed my comments but the
conversation went by so fast, that by the time I got something typed we
had already gone on to the next topic. I don't think there is a software
fix for my problem, but not being an expert in software, I could be
wrong. If anyone has any suggestions I am open to them.

Just for the record, I am using Xubuntu 8.04 on a small HP Pavilion
Slimline with 512 Megs of RAM, a 1.75 MHz Pentium III O think. I use the
Xfce4 dusk theme because that gives me, pretty much, the color scheme I
need to see things well. I have tried using KDE apps, even a full-blown
Kubuntu desktop, but have never gotten the color scheme even close to
what I need.

IMHO, IRC does not work for large group dynamics. We need some sort of
meeting room software like my son;s former online school uses for their
study halls and club meetings. I can't recall the name of the script off
the top of my head, but people had to "raise their hands" in order to
speak and the room was somewhat moderated in order to give everyone a
fair chance to talk. It was web based and involved a small Java applet
download. The pace was much slower, and more organized - less of a free
for all.
- -
Peace!

John
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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction, please]]

[Pierre Vorhagen]

(sorry for double mail alan, forgot to send the list)

I know this is not the exact topic, but since we started, it might help 
others from the list and thus better internal communication...

alan c wrote :
> I would have liked to use konversation but I could not get it 
> configured, and I tried a day or so previously too. I also tried 
> pidgin, again I did not know enough to configure it to work. However, 
> I found that xchat configured almost automatically (relief) and was 
> easy to use. However, but was horrible to read, very unpleasant 
> visually, so I will be continuing to try to find out how to configure 
> konversation, or alt least something else
You might want to modify XChat appearance, the font, color and style can 
be modified in the preferences, and here is a list of themes you can 
try: http://www.xchat.org/themes.html (there are probably others on the 
web).

If you want to give another try to configuring Konversation: "/query 
pep" on freenode and I'll be glad to help.

Pierre


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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction, please]]

[alan c]

Onno Benschop wrote:

[...]
> wonderful working environments I've stumbled upon are those where there
> is a group consensus about what needs to be done. Individuals are
> honoured for their hard work and contributions, but progress is made
> through discussion and agreement. That way everyone is pulling in the
> same direction. Leadership is all good and well, but as soon as the
> leader falls by the wayside, everything has a good chance of stopping,
> however with a group approach, discussions might well take a little
> longer, but everyone owns the progress and belongs to the implementation.

Yes indeed. If leading ideas and actions emerge, great, I will follow 
them. The same with inspiration too. I do not need an 'elected' leader 
for this, it might even reduce something.

[...]

> Finally, you could think of leadership in another way, that is, the
> Ubuntu-Marketing is providing marketing leadership 

exactly

> Go forth and market :)

I like it!
-- 
alan cocks
Kubuntu user#10391
Linux user #360648

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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction, please]]

[alan c]

Pierre Vorhagen wrote:

[...]
> Before I finish, I would like to point out that my views on group 
> dynamics and email (as Onno said) are not the same either, I find the 
> current way of functioning very effective for the moment.

I too, think it is very useful

> If I can give 
> you some advice... I also had it very hard with XChat (don't know which 
> client you are using) and I instantly *loved* IRC when I discovered 
> Konversation, it is the only KDE program I run... I felt it much more 
> gentle with my eyes. But this is a very personal opinion, and not an 
> invitation to debate, just saying how I solved my "IRC-hurts-my-eyes" 
> problem.

I would have liked to use konversation but I could not get it 
configured, and I tried a day or so previously too. I also tried 
pidgin, again I did not know enough to configure it to work. However, 
I found that xchat configured almost automatically (relief) and was 
easy to use. However, but was horrible to read, very unpleasant 
visually, so I will be continuing to try to find out how to configure 
konversation, or alt least something else
-- 
alan cocks
Kubuntu user#10391

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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction, please]]

[Onno Benschop]

On 09/06/08 11:15, John Botscharow wrote:
> People like yourself who have little or no experience
> with Windows have very different perceptions of how virtually reality
> works. You've probably never had to spend hundreds of dollars having
> your hard drive cleaned of trojans and viruses or had to completely
> replace the hard drive or even your computer because of them.
Well, I've been in this industry since the early 1980's and it would be
wrong to think that I've not had Windows experience - to be fair, I
suspect I've seen more of the beast than you might have - I came into
computers when there was no such thing as an IBM, my first computer was
a Commodore Vic 20 and by the time I purchased it I had already spent a
year programming Apple ][ computers in 6502 assembly. I've owned
Macintoshes, Windows NT4 PCs and a Sun Sparc Station, and used,
supported and fixed many others. I continue to provide support to my end
users who have gone through all of your pain as well.

So it would be wrong to suggest that I have little or no experience with
Windows - far from it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not insulted in any way by your comment, just
that when I make a point about something, it's with a long background in
this industry with the experience of being a both a radio broadcaster
and producer, an IT help-desk operator and team leader, a software
developer, an IT trainer and a web-developer. I started playing with
databases in the dBase II era and wrote sales management systems back in
the days of the Summer Edition of Clipper (for those with a sense of
nostalgia :)

(That was a tad longer than I intended, but being concise has never been
a strong point - I'm working on it.)


The other point I'd like to make is that I have to disagree with your
perception of progress.

I've seen many meetings that descend into rabble without any decisions
being made, no common ground being reached and little or no progress
having been made - our 2 and a half hour marathon session achieved lots
more than I dared hope for.

It was a concious decision on my part to leave the Team Structure to the
end (following in the order that the Agenda dictated, I might add) and
my proposal during the meeting would have been not to elect anyone if an
election were called because I do not think there is enough information
available to determine what backgrounds people are coming from.

The single thing I would like to achieve is that the marketing team does
not stagnate as it appears to have done in the past.

>From my perception (that word again :) the team has gone through several
resurrections and I would love to understand what caused each of those
to happen - so we have a chance of avoiding those pitfalls. I have about
six years experience in the FOSS world and I must say that the most
wonderful working environments I've stumbled upon are those where there
is a group consensus about what needs to be done. Individuals are
honoured for their hard work and contributions, but progress is made
through discussion and agreement. That way everyone is pulling in the
same direction. Leadership is all good and well, but as soon as the
leader falls by the wayside, everything has a good chance of stopping,
however with a group approach, discussions might well take a little
longer, but everyone owns the progress and belongs to the implementation.

So, again, I applaud your ongoing contributions, its through those that
we will eventually come to a common understanding. Remember, Ubuntu has
one Benevolent Dictator For Life - BDFL - and really only as I see it to
make arbitration decisions - mind you, I've no evidence to backup that
statement, but it's one of perception.

Finally, you could think of leadership in another way, that is, the
Ubuntu-Marketing is providing marketing leadership by using best
practice and central resources which it makes available to the Ubuntu
Community.


Go forth and market :)


-- 
Onno Benschop

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Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction, please]]

[Pierre Vorhagen]

Hi,

I share your view Bruno. The meeting was definitely a success in those 
points, and it was getting very long indeed, I was starting to get fed 
up to the end, as a couple of others I believe.

But I must admit that, having thought about it a lot, John is perfectly 
right also, concerning the need of a core marketing group, the "kernel" 
as he nicely put it during the meeting ;-). Was it a mistake, a big 
loss, not to have defined it two days ago? I think not. It is not good 
to precipitate these things, maybe John was ready and had his ideas 
clear about this need, but visibly it was not the case for all of us. 
Now, I can say that I am not only half agreeing, but fully behind the 
suggestion of a "framing" (I feel this expression better than 
"leading"...) core group for the team. Yes, the people that discussed on 
IRC that day are absolutely necessary if we want things to move on. (I 
would like to make it clear that I am not talking of _one_ leader, but a 
group, indeed similar to the people that were on IRC.)

Furthermore, I also believe that we _can_ touch the world with our 
marketing.
Also, you are right in saying that we do not only have to set up this 
infrastructure, but also have a strong *creating* role, we have to, as 
you said; "develop the marketing tools for the LoCos to use. Everything 
from release party guides to how to talk to a Windows user to how to 
market in general.". But there we have a question of priorities we are 
setting ourselves! In my opinion, as I made it clear with Hubuntu during 
the meeting, it is most important and necessary to set up the said 
infrastructure, in order to centralize all existing resources (more than 
you'd think!).
But I cannot deny the other mission we have, and that some of us will 
feel much more committed to it, and will be more effective in this role.
To solve our dilemma, if we don't agree on our primary objective, I feel 
that (until SU is set up and running!) we are to create two distinct 
work groups in the team, which will raise our efficiency at its highest.

This is what I study, at HEC Management school in Liège (similar to the 
one in Paris), and this is one thing I can assure you: It is more 
effective and productive to have two motivated work groups rather than 
pulling the whole team into a direction, that not all feel to be the 
priority. This does not, at all, interfere with the organisation and 
structure of the core marketing group, that should imperatively keep the 
one-team structure as its reality. If we have to nominate two work group 
"contacts", fine, I think that this might be necessary for the same 
reasons we need a core team.

Before I finish, I would like to point out that my views on group 
dynamics and email (as Onno said) are not the same either, I find the 
current way of functioning very effective for the moment. If I can give 
you some advice... I also had it very hard with XChat (don't know which 
client you are using) and I instantly *loved* IRC when I discovered 
Konversation, it is the only KDE program I run... I felt it much more 
gentle with my eyes. But this is a very personal opinion, and not an 
invitation to debate, just saying how I solved my "IRC-hurts-my-eyes" 
problem.

Wishing you all a nice day,
Pierre Vorhagen,
pep.



Bruno Barrera Yever a écrit :
> I have to disagree. Even though the meeting did not decide a leader,
> or any kind of leadership role, the marketing team can still survive
> and progress. The use of SU was decided, and to post the future
> content of SU in the wiki was also decided. Improvements for the wiki
> were also decided. The marketing team itself was "defined" to some
> extent, which imho is a great improvement. Also, the meeting was
> getting way too long, and the team structure is something that has to
> be extensively discussed.
>
> I would, rather then get frustrated, be satisfied, that the meeting
> actually served a purpose and was not just 3 hours of talking for
> nothing.
>
> On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 10:15 PM, John Botscharow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>>
>>
>> It seems I sent the email I just apologized for from the wrong address,
>> Not my day, I guess. Here us my reply to Onno as I originally intended
>> it to look.bers.
>> 
>> Onno Benschop wrote:
>>
>> My responses are interspersed below with relevant quotes from Onno's message
>> 
>>> This message is being sent to the list because I believe in open
>>> communication - even though some of the content is specifically for you.
>>>   
>> That is the reason I posted the article to the list, and I was really
>> hoping you would reply.
>> 
>>> Your article is a very interesting take on your participation with
>>> Ubuntu and the Ubuntu-Marketing team and for it's thorough and thought
>>> out content I thank you.
>>>   
>> To complete the social amenities, you are most welcome and I appreciate
>> the effort you put into your reply
>>