Re: Suggestion: Arrays in Rev3 beta

[Mark Smith]

On 28 Aug 2008, at 12:27, David Bovill wrote:



NB - "repeat for each paragraph P in tPage" - is that pseudocode or  
a new

feature?



No! It's pseudocode for the fact that I have no idea how you're  
iterating through your input data!


Best,

Mark
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Re: Suggestion: Arrays in Rev3 beta

[David Bovill]

Ah - yes I can see how that makes it neater using the new arrays.

NB - "repeat for each paragraph P in tPage" - is that pseudocode or a new
feature?

2008/8/28 Mark Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> I think the way I'd approach this is to add numbers to the keys while
> building the array, something like:
>
> repeat for each parargraph P in tPage -- obviously, I don't know how you're
> parsing the wiki text!
>  add 1 to count
>  put extractParagraph(P) into tArray[count & comma & extractHeadng(P)]
> end repeat
>
> then:
>
> put keys(tArray) into tKeys
> sort lines of tKeys numeric by item 1 of each
> repeat for each line K in tKeys
>  put item 2 to -1 of K into tHeading
>  put tArray[K] into tText
>  .
> end repeat
>
> of course, with the new arrays,you could do something like:
>
> repeat for each parargraph P in tPage
>  add 1 to count
>  put extractHeading(P) into tArray[n]["heading"]
>  put extractParagraph(P) into tArray[n]["text"]
> end repeat
>
> then:
>
> repeat with n = 1 to the number of lines in keys(tArray)
>  get tArray[n]["heading"]
>  get tArray[n]["text"]
> end repeat
>
> Best,
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> On 28 Aug 2008, at 11:25, David Bovill wrote:
>
>  2008/8/28 Bernard Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>>
>>> Personally the returned keys being unordered has never been an issue for
>>> me.
>>>  Can you illustrate some situations where this is a problem?
>>>
>>
>>
>> In parsing data in order to layout in Rev I often use arrays. However the
>> order of the original data is often important. Take a recent example - I
>> am
>> working on updating some scripts that parse wiki formatted text. I want to
>> extract all the headers (like html headers they can be of different
>> levels)
>> and store the paragraph of html that goes with each section. Then I want
>> to
>> lay out the data in a Rev interface. I create an outline from the wiki
>> headers and when the user clicks on the header the corresponding text is
>> displayed.
>>
>> There are a number of ways of doing this - and if anyone has any
>> suggestions
>> about the best way please chip in - you can use list and Rev based
>> indexes,
>> you can use XML, or you can use arrays. XML is natural for these
>> hierarchical tree style data structures, but franksly a bit of a pain and
>> overkill. So I tend to use arrays, and looking very much forward to the
>> nested arrays in beta 3 for this.
>>
>> However in order to "reconstruct" the original order of the document I
>> cannot simply loop through the keys of the array as the headers will be
>> all
>> out of order. So I have to go to the effort of storing both the array and
>> an
>> ordered index of the array. Then if I need to store this data and have two
>> things and two places to store it.
>>
>> In general about 1/3 of the time I use arrays I also have to store an
>> ordered index.
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Re: Suggestion: Arrays in Rev3 beta

[Mark Smith]

I think the way I'd approach this is to add numbers to the keys while  
building the array, something like:


repeat for each parargraph P in tPage -- obviously, I don't know how  
you're parsing the wiki text!

  add 1 to count
  put extractParagraph(P) into tArray[count & comma & extractHeadng(P)]
end repeat

then:

put keys(tArray) into tKeys
sort lines of tKeys numeric by item 1 of each
repeat for each line K in tKeys
  put item 2 to -1 of K into tHeading
  put tArray[K] into tText
  .
end repeat

of course, with the new arrays,you could do something like:

repeat for each parargraph P in tPage
  add 1 to count
  put extractHeading(P) into tArray[n]["heading"]
  put extractParagraph(P) into tArray[n]["text"]
end repeat

then:

repeat with n = 1 to the number of lines in keys(tArray)
  get tArray[n]["heading"]
  get tArray[n]["text"]
end repeat

Best,

Mark


On 28 Aug 2008, at 11:25, David Bovill wrote:


2008/8/28 Bernard Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



Personally the returned keys being unordered has never been an  
issue for

me.
 Can you illustrate some situations where this is a problem?



In parsing data in order to layout in Rev I often use arrays.  
However the
order of the original data is often important. Take a recent  
example - I am
working on updating some scripts that parse wiki formatted text. I  
want to
extract all the headers (like html headers they can be of different  
levels)
and store the paragraph of html that goes with each section. Then I  
want to

lay out the data in a Rev interface. I create an outline from the wiki
headers and when the user clicks on the header the corresponding  
text is

displayed.

There are a number of ways of doing this - and if anyone has any  
suggestions
about the best way please chip in - you can use list and Rev based  
indexes,

you can use XML, or you can use arrays. XML is natural for these
hierarchical tree style data structures, but franksly a bit of a  
pain and
overkill. So I tend to use arrays, and looking very much forward to  
the

nested arrays in beta 3 for this.

However in order to "reconstruct" the original order of the document I
cannot simply loop through the keys of the array as the headers  
will be all
out of order. So I have to go to the effort of storing both the  
array and an
ordered index of the array. Then if I need to store this data and  
have two

things and two places to store it.

In general about 1/3 of the time I use arrays I also have to store an
ordered index.
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Re: Suggestion: Arrays in Rev3 beta

[David Bovill]

2008/8/28 Bernard Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>
> Personally the returned keys being unordered has never been an issue for
> me.
>  Can you illustrate some situations where this is a problem?


In parsing data in order to layout in Rev I often use arrays. However the
order of the original data is often important. Take a recent example - I am
working on updating some scripts that parse wiki formatted text. I want to
extract all the headers (like html headers they can be of different levels)
and store the paragraph of html that goes with each section. Then I want to
lay out the data in a Rev interface. I create an outline from the wiki
headers and when the user clicks on the header the corresponding text is
displayed.

There are a number of ways of doing this - and if anyone has any suggestions
about the best way please chip in - you can use list and Rev based indexes,
you can use XML, or you can use arrays. XML is natural for these
hierarchical tree style data structures, but franksly a bit of a pain and
overkill. So I tend to use arrays, and looking very much forward to the
nested arrays in beta 3 for this.

However in order to "reconstruct" the original order of the document I
cannot simply loop through the keys of the array as the headers will be all
out of order. So I have to go to the effort of storing both the array and an
ordered index of the array. Then if I need to store this data and have two
things and two places to store it.

In general about 1/3 of the time I use arrays I also have to store an
ordered index.
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Re: Suggestion: Arrays in Rev3 beta

[Bernard Devlin]

Hi David,
I'm not sure if there will be any additional features added to the beta at
this stage (I don't know at what point they decide to cut off on features
for a beta release).  However, as far as Rev behaving in this way, I believe
that dictionaries from many languages return keys in an unpredictable order
(I seem to remember that in Java they say that this is the case with hash
tables for performance reasons).  So, even if the development team are
amenable to your suggestion, it may have a performance impact.

Personally the returned keys being unordered has never been an issue for me.
 Can you illustrate some situations where this is a problem?

Bernard
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Re: Suggestion

[Richard Gaskin]

Hershel Fisch wrote:

On 6/4/07 5:43 PM, "Hershel Fisch"  wrote:


On 6/4/07 5:21 PM, "Richard Gaskin"  wrote:

The "rev" prefix helps identify calls that are not natively supported by
the engine, requiring additional libraries and/or externals.


And by now, why isn't it built in direct into the engine?


The question of dividing lines is central to so many architectural 
questions in computing.  In this case, setting the dividing line between 
what's in the engine and what isn't, the general impression I get is 
that the more frequently it's needed, the more likely it is to go in the 
engine.


The benefit is that it keeps the core engine small (2MB is smaller than 
even the most trivial apps Apple puts out), while still allowing 
additional functionality for those apps that need it.


That said, I use player objects in only about half the apps I build, so 
maybe QT support is a good candidate for being outside the engine.


Ideally, we might one day see almost everything outside of the core 
interpreter made into a modular architecture, so that small utilities 
could be even smaller than they are today, while more complex apps could 
have their needed components added automatically at build time.


If/when such an architecture emerges, I would definitely support 
dropping the "rev" prefix, since at that point most things would be 
"outside the engine" because the engine itself would become a 
fundamentally different thing.


But in the meantime, libraries and externals require extra steps to set 
up and use, so having a means to clearly distinguish their APIs is helpful.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: Suggestion

[Peter T. Evensen]

Everything that requires a .dll external, like speech, XML, etc.

Hershel Fisch wrote:

On 6/4/07 5:43 PM, "Hershel Fisch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  

On 6/4/07 5:21 PM, "Richard Gaskin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


The "rev" prefix helps identify calls that are not natively supported by
the engine, requiring additional libraries and/or externals.
  

And by now, why isn't it built in direct into the engine?
Hershel
  

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Re: Suggestion

[Richard Gaskin]

Hershel Fisch wrote:

On 6/4/07 5:21 PM, "Richard Gaskin"  wrote:

The "rev" prefix helps identify calls that are not natively supported by
the engine, requiring additional libraries and/or externals.


I think the beautify of the code is more important then to be able to
identify for the novice, besides the point a flag could be entered for that
for the standalone and the pro would anyhow know.


I'm not so sure.  I've been using Rev professionally for more than a 
decade, and with more than 2000 tokens in the engine and another several 
hundred in libraries and externals, I dare admit I haven't memorized 
them all.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: Suggestion

[Hershel Fisch]

On 6/4/07 5:43 PM, "Hershel Fisch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 6/4/07 5:21 PM, "Richard Gaskin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> The "rev" prefix helps identify calls that are not natively supported by
>> the engine, requiring additional libraries and/or externals.
And by now, why isn't it built in direct into the engine?
Hershel
> 
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Re: Suggestion

[Hershel Fisch]

On 6/4/07 5:21 PM, "Richard Gaskin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The "rev" prefix helps identify calls that are not natively supported by
> the engine, requiring additional libraries and/or externals.
I think the beautify of the code is more important then to be able to
identify for the novice, besides the point a flag could be entered for that
for the standalone and the pro would anyhow know.
Hershel

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Re: Suggestion

[Hershel Fisch]

On 6/4/07 5:02 PM, "Joe Lewis Wilkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> AMEN!
> 
> Joe Wilkins
> 
> On Jun 4, 2007, at 1:57 PM, Andre Garzia wrote:
> 
>> That be nice but it would break compatibility with everyone... :-/
Keep the previously not to be documented for legacy until a certain time or
version.
Hershel

>>> Should be "set the databaseDriverPath to the defaultFolder".
?
> 
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Re: Suggestion

[Richard Gaskin]

Hershel Fisch wrote:

Hi all, id like to suggest to rev that since Rev is currently the owner of
its engine and is already nice and stable, I think that all functions that
start with rev...  The word " rev" e.g. revOpenDatabase(,), should be
openDabase( , ) or dataFromQuery( ,) instead.
And while at it I'd like to underline e.g. RevSetDatabaseDriverPath
defaultFolder is not the standard like all other functions of RR.
Should be "set the databaseDriverPath to the defaultFolder". Just my 2
cents.


The "rev" prefix helps identify calls that are not natively supported by 
the engine, requiring additional libraries and/or externals.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
 ___
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Re: Suggestion

[Ian Wood]

On 4 Jun 2007, at 21:57, Andre Garzia wrote:


That be nice but it would break compatibility with everyone... :-/


Wouldn't it be possible to make them synonyms, like bordercolor,  
fourthcolor and markerfillcolor?


Ian
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Re: Suggestion

[Joe Lewis Wilkins]

AMEN!

Joe Wilkins

On Jun 4, 2007, at 1:57 PM, Andre Garzia wrote:


That be nice but it would break compatibility with everyone... :-/

On 6/4/07, Hershel Fisch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi all, id like to suggest to rev that since Rev is currently the  
owner of
its engine and is already nice and stable, I think that all  
functions that

start with rev...  The word " rev" e.g. revOpenDatabase(,), should be
openDabase( , ) or dataFromQuery( ,) instead.
And while at it I'd like to underline e.g. RevSetDatabaseDriverPath
defaultFolder is not the standard like all other functions of RR.
Should be "set the databaseDriverPath to the defaultFolder". Just  
my 2

cents.
Hershel


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Re: Suggestion

[Andre Garzia]

That be nice but it would break compatibility with everyone... :-/

On 6/4/07, Hershel Fisch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi all, id like to suggest to rev that since Rev is currently the owner of
its engine and is already nice and stable, I think that all functions that
start with rev...  The word " rev" e.g. revOpenDatabase(,), should be
openDabase( , ) or dataFromQuery( ,) instead.
And while at it I'd like to underline e.g. RevSetDatabaseDriverPath
defaultFolder is not the standard like all other functions of RR.
Should be "set the databaseDriverPath to the defaultFolder". Just my 2
cents.
Hershel

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RE: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[MisterX]

Bob,

Usually supplying the bugzilla url in the mail 
makes it easier to jump there and vote for you ;)

Just a thought... suggestion ;)

cheers
Xavier 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> Bob Warren
> Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 22:55
> To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
> Subject: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor 
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> As a result of our final discussion on how to improve the 
> functioning of the script editor, I have submitted a bug 
> report (#2968) and an enhancement request (#2969) to 
> Bugzilla. Please vote for them (or not) as you wish. If you 
> think there is anything crucial to add (or subtract), please 
> let me know.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Regards,
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Glenn E. Fisher]

All,
I vaguely remember from my UNIX and C days that there was a command 
named "cb" that was named "Program Beautifier".  It took C source file 
as input and wrote a file that had the C source in indented and 
structured form.  There was also a command named "uucleanup" that did a 
similar thing with uu (Unix to Unix) transfer scripts.


So it's pretty or beautiful or clean...:-)

This is fun,
Glenn

On July 1, 2005 10:01:49 AM CDT Alex Tweedly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
scribbled:

Thomas McGrath III wrote:


Eric,

Is that what it is really called? Pretty printing? Or is that a 
translation thing?


It just sounds a little funny.


It's really called that.
I *think* the name was first used in Lisp back in the 60s  
certainly it was in common use by the time I got involved in computers 
(1970), though it was still a "feature" then; it has become so 
ubiquitous that the word itself is less frequently needed these days - 
everyone knows programs should be laid out sensibly (even if they 
don't agree on what is sensible :-)


--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net


--
Glenn E. Fisher University of Houston - Retired
22402 Diane Dr. Spring, Tx 77373
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.uh.edu/~fisher
http://home.houston.rr.com/thegefishers/
http://homepage.mac.com/gefisher
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points

[Klaus Major]

Hi Björnke,


On Jul 01 2005, at 01:29, Dennis Brown wrote:
I would be MORE than happy to segregate my posts into the two  
different categories.
There is a lot of traffic on this list, it would make sense to  
divide up the traffic into these two areas.



There is an Improve Rev list, but only rich people


what a sad, poor and cheap joke :-/

are allowed to participate there (aka Enterprise owners). That is  
RunRev's decision, not mine of course...


sorry
Bjoernke


Regards

Klaus Major
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.major-k.de

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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Ken Ray]

On 7/1/05 4:20 AM, "Bob Warren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Can we go back to where it all started?

You post was well said, Bob. I've been using xTalk for decades (ouch!) as
well as VB up through VB 6, and I know exactly what you mean (including the
.NET disenfranchisement).

> So here is the synthesis of my suggestion for correcting the IDE's script
> editor. It presumes that programming and design norms are to be taken into
> account, and that likely pitfalls of newcomers are to be avoided as much as
> possible.
> 
> 1. Existing bugs should be removed. The very fact that a newcomer cannot
> easily see the difference between a feature and a bug shows that there is
> something wrong somewhere. Bugs confuse everybody and everything.

Agreed.

> 2. Leave the existing auto-formatting facilities entirely alone.

Yup.

> BUT
> 3. When the auto-formatting is turned off, it means what it says. This means
> that changes to existing text can be made in the manner of a normal text
> editor. TAB creates a single indentation in a single line.

Right - I think it is a bug that turning off auto-formatting still gives you
some level of auto-formatting. :-)

> In addition, perhaps the switch for turning auto-formatting on and off could
> be put in a more convenient place.

Perhaps accessible somewhere through the script editor? Perhaps a button to
take you to the prefs dialog where you make those changes?

> Also, descriptions of auto-formatting and
> the (non-standard) use of the TAB key could be more prominently displayed in
> the Help.

Agreed. 

> Finally, I would like to apologise for the rather confused nature of my
> explanation. On top of my status as a refugee, I am extremely upset at the
> conflict my suggestion seems to have stimulated.

IMHO, sometimes people just have a bad day and want to vent, or are very
protective of certain features, or are resistant to change. My feelings are
that if someone disagrees with someone else, it is fine to make the
disagreement public, but in a respectful and non-aggressive way.

> Perhaps one reason for this
> is that to have new ideas, one must necessarily be provocative, and this is
> easily misinterpreted by those who are motivated to do so. I am seeking to
> deflate the situation by returning to the scene of the crime and re-tracing
> my steps. But only you are able to tell me whether I have succeeded or
> failed.

IMHO you have succeeded in spades.

Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software
Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 10:02 AM -0400 7/1/2005, Thomas McGrath III wrote:
Is that what it is really called? Pretty printing? Or is that a 
translation thing?


It just sounds a little funny.


It's an old programming term. (There was - well, still is - a Unix 
shell program named "pp" for pretty-print, which takes a C source 
file and formats it nicely in accordance with the rules for that 
language.)

--
jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jaedworks.com
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Dennis Brown]

Before Apple made WYSIWYG (what you see (on the screen) is what you  
get (on the printer)) the norm, and even before that when displays  
were monospaced character (not graphics) oriented, and printers were  
also monospaced with just one character set, straight printing was an  
ugly unformatted dump of characters.  It was not a pretty sight.  It  
took a lot of work and formatting characters or commands to make a  
printout look pretty (formatted for readability).  So the term pretty  
printing meant the process of printing with the formatting.  However,  
I haven't actually heard the term used in the last 20+ years until  
today.


Dennis

On Jul 1, 2005, at 11:01 AM, Alex Tweedly wrote:


Thomas McGrath III wrote:



Eric,

Is that what it is really called? Pretty printing? Or is that a  
translation thing?


It just sounds a little funny.



It's really called that.
I *think* the name was first used in Lisp back in the 60s   
certainly it was in common use by the time I got involved in  
computers (1970), though it was still a "feature" then; it has  
become so ubiquitous that the word itself is less frequently needed  
these days - everyone knows programs should be laid out sensibly  
(even if they don't agree on what is sensible :-)


--
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Alex Tweedly]

Thomas McGrath III wrote:


Eric,

Is that what it is really called? Pretty printing? Or is that a 
translation thing?


It just sounds a little funny.


It's really called that.
I *think* the name was first used in Lisp back in the 60s  certainly 
it was in common use by the time I got involved in computers (1970), 
though it was still a "feature" then; it has become so ubiquitous that 
the word itself is less frequently needed these days - everyone knows 
programs should be laid out sensibly (even if they don't agree on what 
is sensible :-)


--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net



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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor [words of wisdom]

[Dennis Brown]

On Jul 1, 2005, at 5:20 AM, Bob Warren wrote:


Can we go back to where it all started?


Ok, I deleted everything before this post in my mail.

Now, if we can discuss this on the List and arrive at some kind of  
consensus
about it, then perhaps we would earn sufficient respect on the part  
of the

management to get something implemented.

Bob


A wise proposition.

Just a few ideas about these posts from my long experience.

STRANGE or BAD IDEAS:

1.  Every good idea I ever had, started out as a bad idea.  Some of  
the worst and most improbable ones turned into the best.  The key was  
to take the bad idea as a way to break free of the previous limited  
thinking and use it as a stepping stone to a great idea.


2.  Half the bad ideas I ever had were really bad and stayed that way  
and never led to anything worthwhile.


3.  I learned to treat ideas (my own or somebody else's) with  
equanimity.  I embrace the good ones whatever their source, and  
wrestle with the bad ones until I understand their true nature.


4.  It is often hard for me to tell that I have a good or bad idea  
until I can bounce it off other intelligent persons with different  
experiences.


5.  Ideas are not people, they are just inanimate objects.  They feel  
no insults or injuries.  They are fair game.  If you wish to release  
an idea into the hunting grounds to see if it survives, please do not  
identify yourself with it's fate.  Be a dispassionate participant,  
arguing for, or even against it's merits as the chase progresses.


PEOPLE are NOT IDEAS:

1.  The people who release ideas are not to be confused with the  
idea.  They have feelings, and are not fair game.  Everyone should  
receive respect, even when they don't give it.  That is a very hard  
thing to learn (especially if you feel slighted).  I have noticed  
that the most helpful people on this list behave this way.  I have  
also noticed that when a person is given respect (in spite of their  
perceived disrespect), they tend to change their tune in a positive way.


2.  Let the list mom handle the disposition of obnoxious people who  
really don't belong on this list.


WHO BENEFITS from a GOOD IDEA:

1.  I present ideas for improvements on this list without any  
expectation that I will benefit from them even if they are ever  
implemented.  It is unlikely that any will make it into a version in  
the time frame of my current projects.  I do not know if my future  
projects will materialize, or if I will have the same needs.  I view  
my contributions as planting an apple tree that others will be able  
to pick the fruit from.  Therefore, I am not emotionally invested  
from a personal level, only as representing part of the user  
community needs.


2.  I benefit directly when my good or bad ideas generate a response  
from the community about to solve the underlying problem (that  
spawned the idea) with the tools available today.


Dennis
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Eric Chatonet]

Hi curious Tom :-)

How could you think that I would change a single word from the  
Official Revolution Documentation ;-)

No, I just copied/pasted it.
At the time, seems that Rev guys were very happy with this function...
Now, I wonder ;-)
But stay curious: it's a good disease!

Le 1 juil. 05 à 16:02, Thomas McGrath III a écrit :

Is that what it is really called? Pretty printing? Or is that a  
translation thing?


It just sounds a little funny.

Curious Tom


Best Regards from Paris,

Eric Chatonet.

So Smart Software

For institutions, companies and associations
Built-to-order applications: management, multimedia, internet, etc.
Windows, Mac OS and Linux... With the French touch

Free plugins and tutorials on my website

Web sitehttp://www.sosmartsoftware.com/
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Thomas McGrath III]

Good idea Jim. I don't know if it will get done but I've seen this 
before and it works. I've seen it in using applescript and frontier 
runtime etc.

(or maybe that was one editor with multiple language choices?!?!?!)

Thanks

Tom

On Jul 1, 2005, at 8:27 AM, Jim Bufalini wrote:

So, maybe instead of trying to make The Editor a one size fits all 
(which
will never happen), publish a standard against which 3rd party 
programmers
can write alternate editors, which the debugger, and other elements of 
the

IDE will use in the same fashion that it uses The Editor.




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2.6



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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Thomas McGrath III]

Eric,

Is that what it is really called? Pretty printing? Or is that a 
translation thing?


It just sounds a little funny.

Curious Tom


On Jul 1, 2005, at 5:55 AM, Eric Chatonet wrote:


Hi Bob,

As usual with Rev docs, it's somewhere but you are rarely able to find 
it...
I'm finishing a plugin that finds the following when you enter 
"indent" as a search keyword:

Might be useful ;-)

From the Docs FAQs:
How do I pretty print a script?
Pretty printing is the use of indenting to show the structure of a 
handler. When pretty printed, the contents of control structures (such 
as if/then/else conditionals and repeat loops) are indented. Nested 
control structures are indented more, to show the level of nesting.
The Revolution script editor automatically pretty-prints the current 
handler when you place the insertion point somewhere in the handler 
and press Return or Tab. You can also choose Script menu Format to 
pretty print the current handler.
To turn off automatic pretty printing, choose Edit menu Preferences, 
then uncheck the box labeled "Auto-indent to show structure" in the 
"Script Editor" pane.


Le 1 juil. 05 à 11:20, Bob Warren a écrit :

In addition, perhaps the switch for turning auto-formatting on and 
off could
be put in a more convenient place Also, descriptions of 
auto-formatting and
the (non-standard) use of the TAB key could be more prominently 
displayed in

the Help.


Best Regards from Paris,

Eric Chatonet.

So Smart Software

For institutions, companies and associations
Built-to-order applications: management, multimedia, internet, etc.
Windows, Mac OS and Linux... With the French touch

Free plugins and tutorials on my website

Web sitehttp://www.sosmartsoftware.com/
Email[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Thomas McGrath III]

Bob,

I have been using Rev for 1 year now and although I have my frustrating 
moments with bugs, as do others, I am confident in Rev's pursuit of 
fixing the bugs that bother us all. They are releasing fixes in a much 
faster time frame and plan on continuing to do so.


I believe they are focusing on a couple of key areas and the editor is 
one of those. So your number 1. issue should be noticed soon enough.


As far as numbers 2. and 3.  I think that the formating will stay the 
way it works now. But with fixes to the problem areas. I agree that 
turning it off should do just that. A simple request. I would easily 
vote for this bug fix/UI enhancement.


Number 4. (not numbered) is the one I think that should be done sooner 
rather than later. It would let a newbie know that this is possible and 
maybe take a lot of the frustration out of dealing with the editor in 
the first place. I think the reason this thread got out of hand is not 
your post but rather that it opened a door to venting frustrations 
about all kinds of things and those frustrations are what started to 
get out of hand (IMO). Every one here seems to agree that we want to go 
forward and never end up where VB did and I fear where Director is 
going. I would vote for this enhancement request.


Yours,

Tom

On Jul 1, 2005, at 5:20 AM, Bob Warren wrote:

1. Existing bugs should be removed. The very fact that a newcomer 
cannot
easily see the difference between a feature and a bug shows that there 
is

something wrong somewhere. Bugs confuse everybody and everything.

As Mark suggested in his e-mail to us all by suggesting that "it is not
unreasonable to give users the choice":

2. Leave the existing auto-formatting facilities entirely alone.
BUT
3. When the auto-formatting is turned off, it means what it says. This 
means
that changes to existing text can be made in the manner of a normal 
text

editor. TAB creates a single indentation in a single line.

In addition, perhaps the switch for turning auto-formatting on and off 
could
be put in a more convenient place Also, descriptions of 
auto-formatting and
the (non-standard) use of the TAB key could be more prominently 
displayed in

the Help.




Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.9, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 
2.6



Advanced Media Group
Eagle Works Art & Sculpture
Semantic Compaction Systems
Prentke Romich Company
Prentke Romich International
SCIconics, LLC
Artist
Thomas J McGrath III
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points

[Thomas McGrath III]

Dennis,

You are right! I am trying to turn it down four notches. Thanks for the 
calm post.


I just threw your comments on top of a rather large pile (IMO) and 
after reading your post again, I see that that was not fair to do.


Thanks for being on this list and offering your professional and calm 
support.


Tom


On Jun 30, 2005, at 10:02 PM, Dennis Brown wrote:

Please turn your sensitivity knob down two notches and stop stirring 
up the pot.  My comments were not meant to insult or be rude to 
anyone, and in rereading them, I can't see that they are, but you have 
labeled them so.  You are actually inciting more discussion and 
rudeness than you are preventing.  I am only trying to provide helpful 
suggestions for how to separate one generic type of discussion from 
another for the benefit of the people who come to this list to get the 
very helpful and appreciated advice of the "old hands".



Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.9, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 
2.6



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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jon]

Eric:

Excellent post.  This points out, specifically, how the two keys ( 
and ) behave differently, which is part of what has been 
frustrating me.  The closer these two keys function, the better off we 
all will be, I think.


Thanks!

Jon


Eric Chatonet wrote:


Hi Jon,

I tested the following:

on toto
  if there is a fld "toto" then
go to cd 1
  end if

end toto

1. I typed "on toto" and press return: "end toto" has been  
automatically set and the insertion point blinked at the right place  
(with the right indentation)
2. I typed "if there is a fld toto then" and press return: the  
indentation level was increased as expected but, accordingly to  
Xtalks habits, the "end toto" should have been moved 1 indent to  
reflect the "end if" absence. But it did not. I pressed the tabKey  
and then the end control structure moved.

3. The rest was correct.

So, it appears that return and tab keys do not act exactly in the  
same way and the end control structure indentation  (or another one)  
is not managed as it it should be when pressing the return key.
I agree your point of view and consider this dysfunction as severe  
since a correct behaviour (i.e. reliable) would be very helpful for  
beginners and... others when, for instance some nested if structures  
should request an


if then
  statements
end if

before an another else at the beginning of the following line and not:

if then statements

In such a case the engine is confused (it is right :-), revError  
tells there is something wrong but indentation appears correct when  
in fact, it should reflect that there is a problem with a control  
structure and visually indicate which of them is at issue.
HyperCard did it perfectly and when I began many years ago it has  
been very helpful for me even if now I have generally no more  
problems :-)


Le 1 juil. 05 à 13:01, Jon a écrit :

"The Revolution script editor automatically pretty-prints the  
current  handler when you place the insertion point somewhere in  the 
handler  and press Return or Tab."


I agree that  works in this way, but I use  all of the  
time, and the formatting is often incorrect.  Am I missing  
something, or is the above sentence either partly or entirely wrong  
(as regards ).


Jon


Eric Chatonet wrote:



Hi Bob,

As usual with Rev docs, it's somewhere but you are rarely able to   
find it...
I'm finishing a plugin that finds the following when you enter   
"indent" as a search keyword:

Might be useful ;-)

From the Docs FAQs:
How do I pretty print a script?
Pretty printing is the use of indenting to show the structure of  a  
handler. When pretty printed, the contents of control  structures  
(such as if/then/else conditionals and repeat loops)  are indented.  
Nested control structures are indented more, to  show the level of  
nesting.
The Revolution script editor automatically pretty-prints the  
current  handler when you place the insertion point somewhere in  
the handler  and press Return or Tab. You can also choose Script  
menu Format to  pretty print the current handler.
To turn off automatic pretty printing, choose Edit menu  
Preferences,  then uncheck the box labeled "Auto-indent to show  
structure" in the  "Script Editor" pane.


Le 1 juil. 05 à 11:20, Bob Warren a écrit :


In addition, perhaps the switch for turning auto-formatting on  
and  off could
be put in a more convenient place Also, descriptions of auto-  
formatting and
the (non-standard) use of the TAB key could be more prominently   
displayed in

the Help.




Best Regards from Paris,

Eric Chatonet.

So Smart Software

For institutions, companies and associations
Built-to-order applications: management, multimedia, internet, etc.
Windows, Mac OS and Linux... With the French touch

Free plugins and tutorials on my website

Web sitehttp://www.sosmartsoftware.com/
Email[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Phone33 (0)1 43 31 77 62
Mobile33 (0)6 20 74 50 86


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RE: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[xbury . cs]

Jim, Bob,

I agree with you. However remember that you can use anything to edit the 
script...

put the script of the selobj into fld 1 of stack "myeditor"
and 
set the script of the selobj to fld 1 of stack "Myeditor"

Note that the plugin architecture of RunRev permits to trap the 
RevEditScript handler so you can insert your own plugin in there.

so if your stack is a plug in and has the corresponding RevEditScript 
message handler in its' stack script

on RevEditScript 
  put the script of the selobj into fld 1 of stack "myeditor"
end RevEditScript 

then, you're near home free ;-) except for all the good features i'll be 
releasing soon ;)

The debugging however doesn't require tabs so using Rev's SE to do this 
shouldn't be too shocking ;)

As far as i know there isn't a plugin hook to debug. And the RevEditScript 
has to be tested still (last i did, all i managed was to crash Rev but 
this is apparently fixed).

As a PC user, the Rev Script Editor has come a long way to something 
that's more than quite useable and simple to use.

Im sure you'll get used to it (as Mark said) before you know it or get 
used to your own way ;)

cheers
Xavier
http://monsieurx.com


On 01/07/2005 14:27:26 use-revolution-bounces wrote:
>Bob,
>
>A very reasonable post. As a PC programmer, the Tab key was news to me 
also.
>In the interest of "discussion" here's another idea:
>
>Over the years, I have found that editors (and word processors) are like
>religions. Everyone likes the one they are used to and are willing to go 
to
>war over it.
>
>Maybe the answer is, and I don't even know if this is possible in the Rev
>paradigm, is to give users a choice by allowing them to use 3rd party
>editors. The problem (and fear) here usually is that the debugging
>facilities of the IDE won't integrate with a 3rd party editor.
>
>So, maybe instead of trying to make The Editor a one size fits all (which
>will never happen), publish a standard against which 3rd party 
programmers
>can write alternate editors, which the debugger, and other elements of 
the
>IDE will use in the same fashion that it uses The Editor.
>
>There could be a list of approved editors and a place in Preferences to 
pick
>the one you are using. In the long run, I believe, this would be less
>programming for the Rev folks and more opportunity for the independent
>developer.
>
>Jim
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bob Warren
>Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 11:21 PM
>To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
>Subject: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor
>
>
>Can we go back to where it all started?
>
>
>
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Eric Chatonet]

Hi Jon,

I tested the following:

on toto
  if there is a fld "toto" then
go to cd 1
  end if

end toto

1. I typed "on toto" and press return: "end toto" has been  
automatically set and the insertion point blinked at the right place  
(with the right indentation)
2. I typed "if there is a fld toto then" and press return: the  
indentation level was increased as expected but, accordingly to  
Xtalks habits, the "end toto" should have been moved 1 indent to  
reflect the "end if" absence. But it did not. I pressed the tabKey  
and then the end control structure moved.

3. The rest was correct.

So, it appears that return and tab keys do not act exactly in the  
same way and the end control structure indentation  (or another one)  
is not managed as it it should be when pressing the return key.
I agree your point of view and consider this dysfunction as severe  
since a correct behaviour (i.e. reliable) would be very helpful for  
beginners and... others when, for instance some nested if structures  
should request an


if then
  statements
end if

before an another else at the beginning of the following line and not:

if then statements

In such a case the engine is confused (it is right :-), revError  
tells there is something wrong but indentation appears correct when  
in fact, it should reflect that there is a problem with a control  
structure and visually indicate which of them is at issue.
HyperCard did it perfectly and when I began many years ago it has  
been very helpful for me even if now I have generally no more  
problems :-)


Le 1 juil. 05 à 13:01, Jon a écrit :

"The Revolution script editor automatically pretty-prints the  
current  handler when you place the insertion point somewhere in  
the handler  and press Return or Tab."


I agree that  works in this way, but I use  all of the  
time, and the formatting is often incorrect.  Am I missing  
something, or is the above sentence either partly or entirely wrong  
(as regards ).


Jon


Eric Chatonet wrote:



Hi Bob,

As usual with Rev docs, it's somewhere but you are rarely able to   
find it...
I'm finishing a plugin that finds the following when you enter   
"indent" as a search keyword:

Might be useful ;-)

From the Docs FAQs:
How do I pretty print a script?
Pretty printing is the use of indenting to show the structure of  
a  handler. When pretty printed, the contents of control  
structures  (such as if/then/else conditionals and repeat loops)  
are indented.  Nested control structures are indented more, to  
show the level of  nesting.
The Revolution script editor automatically pretty-prints the  
current  handler when you place the insertion point somewhere in  
the handler  and press Return or Tab. You can also choose Script  
menu Format to  pretty print the current handler.
To turn off automatic pretty printing, choose Edit menu  
Preferences,  then uncheck the box labeled "Auto-indent to show  
structure" in the  "Script Editor" pane.


Le 1 juil. 05 à 11:20, Bob Warren a écrit :


In addition, perhaps the switch for turning auto-formatting on  
and  off could
be put in a more convenient place Also, descriptions of auto-  
formatting and
the (non-standard) use of the TAB key could be more prominently   
displayed in

the Help.


Best Regards from Paris,

Eric Chatonet.

So Smart Software

For institutions, companies and associations
Built-to-order applications: management, multimedia, internet, etc.
Windows, Mac OS and Linux... With the French touch

Free plugins and tutorials on my website

Web sitehttp://www.sosmartsoftware.com/
Email[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Phone33 (0)1 43 31 77 62
Mobile33 (0)6 20 74 50 86


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RE: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jim Bufalini]

Bob,

A very reasonable post. As a PC programmer, the Tab key was news to me also.
In the interest of "discussion" here's another idea:

Over the years, I have found that editors (and word processors) are like
religions. Everyone likes the one they are used to and are willing to go to
war over it.

Maybe the answer is, and I don't even know if this is possible in the Rev
paradigm, is to give users a choice by allowing them to use 3rd party
editors. The problem (and fear) here usually is that the debugging
facilities of the IDE won't integrate with a 3rd party editor.

So, maybe instead of trying to make The Editor a one size fits all (which
will never happen), publish a standard against which 3rd party programmers
can write alternate editors, which the debugger, and other elements of the
IDE will use in the same fashion that it uses The Editor.

There could be a list of approved editors and a place in Preferences to pick
the one you are using. In the long run, I believe, this would be less
programming for the Rev folks and more opportunity for the independent
developer.

Jim

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bob Warren
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 11:21 PM
To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Subject: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor


Can we go back to where it all started?



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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jon]

"The Revolution script editor automatically pretty-prints the current  
handler when you place the insertion point somewhere in the handler  and 
press Return or Tab."


I agree that  works in this way, but I use  all of the 
time, and the formatting is often incorrect.  Am I missing something, or 
is the above sentence either partly or entirely wrong (as regards ).


Jon


Eric Chatonet wrote:


Hi Bob,

As usual with Rev docs, it's somewhere but you are rarely able to  
find it...
I'm finishing a plugin that finds the following when you enter  
"indent" as a search keyword:

Might be useful ;-)

From the Docs FAQs:
How do I pretty print a script?
Pretty printing is the use of indenting to show the structure of a  
handler. When pretty printed, the contents of control structures  
(such as if/then/else conditionals and repeat loops) are indented.  
Nested control structures are indented more, to show the level of  
nesting.
The Revolution script editor automatically pretty-prints the current  
handler when you place the insertion point somewhere in the handler  
and press Return or Tab. You can also choose Script menu Format to  
pretty print the current handler.
To turn off automatic pretty printing, choose Edit menu Preferences,  
then uncheck the box labeled "Auto-indent to show structure" in the  
"Script Editor" pane.


Le 1 juil. 05 à 11:20, Bob Warren a écrit :

In addition, perhaps the switch for turning auto-formatting on and  
off could
be put in a more convenient place Also, descriptions of auto- 
formatting and
the (non-standard) use of the TAB key could be more prominently  
displayed in

the Help.



Best Regards from Paris,

Eric Chatonet.

So Smart Software

For institutions, companies and associations
Built-to-order applications: management, multimedia, internet, etc.
Windows, Mac OS and Linux... With the French touch

Free plugins and tutorials on my website

Web sitehttp://www.sosmartsoftware.com/
Email[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Phone33 (0)1 43 31 77 62
Mobile33 (0)6 20 74 50 86


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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Eric Chatonet]

Hi Bob,

As usual with Rev docs, it's somewhere but you are rarely able to  
find it...
I'm finishing a plugin that finds the following when you enter  
"indent" as a search keyword:

Might be useful ;-)

From the Docs FAQs:
How do I pretty print a script?
Pretty printing is the use of indenting to show the structure of a  
handler. When pretty printed, the contents of control structures  
(such as if/then/else conditionals and repeat loops) are indented.  
Nested control structures are indented more, to show the level of  
nesting.
The Revolution script editor automatically pretty-prints the current  
handler when you place the insertion point somewhere in the handler  
and press Return or Tab. You can also choose Script menu Format to  
pretty print the current handler.
To turn off automatic pretty printing, choose Edit menu Preferences,  
then uncheck the box labeled "Auto-indent to show structure" in the  
"Script Editor" pane.


Le 1 juil. 05 à 11:20, Bob Warren a écrit :

In addition, perhaps the switch for turning auto-formatting on and  
off could
be put in a more convenient place Also, descriptions of auto- 
formatting and
the (non-standard) use of the TAB key could be more prominently  
displayed in

the Help.


Best Regards from Paris,

Eric Chatonet.

So Smart Software

For institutions, companies and associations
Built-to-order applications: management, multimedia, internet, etc.
Windows, Mac OS and Linux... With the French touch

Free plugins and tutorials on my website

Web sitehttp://www.sosmartsoftware.com/
Email[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Phone33 (0)1 43 31 77 62
Mobile33 (0)6 20 74 50 86


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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points

[Richard Gaskin]

M Young wrote:
Richard Gaskin Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:53:49 -0700: A lot of people from a 
wide range of programming backgrounds have learned Rev easily with the 
help of the folks here.
MY: Very true, however I find that the old x-talk hands on this list 
expect all new Rev users to be programming neophytes. "Dan [Shafer] 
coined the term "Inventive User" to describe people who use programs 
like Revolution to create solutions to their own problems without 
necessarily becoming professional programmers in the process." ( 
http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit/RevConWest/Sponsors.htm )


Those are someone else's words, not mine.  The "low-hanging fruit" of 
refugees from other xTalks has pretty much been picked long ago.  If Rev 
is to grow it will come from two categories:


- The "inventive users" Dan talks about, tinkerers by nature who want to 
experience the joy of building useful things for themselves and others.


- Professional developers, who by virtue of being developers already 
have a current favorite language.


This makes for a difficult challenge in documenting Rev:  it must appeal 
to those with no previous programming experience at all, and must also 
appeal to those for whom Rev is a second (or third or fourth) language.


Every language has its indiosynchracies, but since Transcript is a 
proprietary language this multiplies the above documentation challenges 
by an order of magnitude.  There's a team at RunRev working on the docs 
year 'round, and they tend to get better with each release.  Dropping a 
note into Bugzilla about errors and ommissions helps guide that process, 
and the folks at RR definitely read this list.


There are some orientation materials for programmers familiar with 
languages like C++ and Java -- worth at least a skim:



For everything else there's experimentation and this list.  You'll never 
hear me hold experienced programmers in disdain; on the contrary I feel 
their input is valuable in helping the language grow and the product's 
marketing expend its reach.




Richard Gaskin Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:44:22 -0700: In its most basic form, 
a Rev script editor is just a field in a stack. The field is loaded with 
the script in response to the editScript message (trappable in a 
frontScript if you want to get the message before the Rev editor does), 
and the script is just a property saved to the object with the save 
command ("set the script of  to 

RE: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endlessranting and rude insults AND other points

[MisterX]

you dont need to be rich to be my ... (Prince)

Just show enough guts and brains to help improve rev and then ask for it...

cheers
Xav 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> Björnke von Gierke
> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 01:35
> To: How to use Revolution
> Subject: Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script 
> editor AND Endlessranting and rude insults AND other points
> 
> 
> On Jul 01 2005, at 01:29, Dennis Brown wrote:
> 
> > I would be MORE than happy to segregate my posts into the two 
> > different categories.
> > There is a lot of traffic on this list, it would make sense 
> to divide 
> > up the traffic into these two areas.
> 
> There is an Improve Rev list, but only rich people are 
> allowed to participate there (aka Enterprise owners). That is 
> RunRev's decision, not mine of course...
> 
> sorry
> Bjoernke
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> http://contest.wecode.org
> Now running: the first ChatRev coding contest!
> sponsors:
> Altuit
> Andre Garzia
> Fourth World
> Karl Becker
> Runtime Revolution
> TidBITS in cooperation with eHUG
> 
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> your subscription preferences:
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> 

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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points

[Dennis Brown]

Thomas,

Please turn your sensitivity knob down two notches and stop stirring  
up the pot.  My comments were not meant to insult or be rude to  
anyone, and in rereading them, I can't see that they are, but you  
have labeled them so.  You are actually inciting more discussion and  
rudeness than you are preventing.  I am only trying to provide  
helpful suggestions for how to separate one generic type of  
discussion from another for the benefit of the people who come to  
this list to get the very helpful and appreciated advice of the "old  
hands".  Dwelling on an individuals opinion and reading into it  
something that may or may not have been intended as disrespectful has  
promoted more controversy than it warrants.  My delete key has been  
overly active on this thread already --I like to keep the most  
helpful messages for future reference in my mail folder after I have  
filtered out the irrelevant ones to improve future searches.


Extraneous BZ improvement suggestions that are not well thought out,  
or could be handled in some other reasonable way are a waste of  
RunRev's limited resources to sort through and make responses.   
Intelligent discussion in a list with interested users is a useful  
way of making the best suggestions.


As I said, I think it is reasonable for the high end "Professional"  
license purchasers to discuss improvements in their own exclusive  
thread, and having a thread for that, are less inclined to bring that  
thread into this thread.  Just a statement of fact, but using less  
words, because of my slow typing skills.


So there are two choices, continue on in unproductive mud slinging  
and snide rude remarks and insults or let this dead horse lie and  
get back to the business at hand.


Don't feel you have to reply to opinion portion of this message, I am  
content to leave it at that.


Dennis

On Jun 30, 2005, at 8:36 PM, Thomas McGrath III wrote:

The problem is that the discussions turned into insults and rude  
comments and they are still going on. The new traffic on the list  
is great and the help that this list offers is beyond any list I  
have ever seen. But when an intelligent discussion falls into rude  
comments being thrown at the "old timers", "old hands", "rich  
people" who are too busy "having their own pow wow" or "are used to  
it and expect others to get used to it" or what ever other snide  
comments people can come up with then it is no longer a productive  
discussion and is wasting an awful lot of list space which is  
normally used in helping people.


So there are two choices, continue on in unproductive mud slinging  
and snide rude remarks and insults or let this dead horse lie and  
get back to the business at hand.


Bugzilla does work ( if your bug is not voted on may others find  
different bugs more important to them) and Rev does pay attention  
to both this list and the improve list and BZ. The comments from  
Mark recently show just that. There are all kinds of bug fixes  
going on as we speak and Rev has committed to an increase in those  
bug fixes and bug fix releases.


Tom

On Jun 30, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Dennis Brown wrote:


We can always put requests into BZ, but I believe an intelligent  
discussion should proceed that action, and that only those who are  
interested should be subjected to the additional traffic.  Perhaps  
it is time for an improve-list for the rest of us.   The  
discussions will happen anyway --if not there, then here.






Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.9, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM,  
Rev 2.6



Advanced Media Group
Eagle Works Art & Sculpture
Semantic Compaction Systems
Prentke Romich Company
Prentke Romich International
SCIconics, LLC
Artist
Thomas J McGrath III
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points

[Mark Smith]

My point was that people on this list - not RunRev themselves - are 
both more inclined and more able to offer workarounds where necessary 
than they could possibly be to fix bugs. That is obviously RunRevs job.


I think some of the somewhat heated tenor of some posts recently has 
been partly  due to one or two professional programmers who are new to 
Rev venting their newbie frustrations by suggesting that Rev couldn't 
be used for serious work, when there are pros here who can prove that 
assertion quite wrong, and partly due to the fact that the list is 
overwhelmingly populated by users of Rev rather than the creators of 
Rev, therefore, a complaining attitude is inappropriate. Email customer 
service with complaints, ask for practical help on the list. And RTFM 
:)


Mark Smith

On 30 Jun 2005, at 23:04, M Young wrote:

Mark Smith Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:22:37 +0100: I don't think anyone has 
really suggested that you shouldn't mind. But it's the nature of this 
list for people to offer workarounds and show examples of how they 
deal with things. For what it's worth, I agree that the script editor 
is buggy in it's formatting, but not so much that you can't work.
MY: It bothers when a tool that costs a lot of money is buggy. I want 
the toaster of software development -- just plug it in and it works. I 
see no reason for me to need workarounds.


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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points

[Thomas McGrath III]

The problem is that the discussions turned into insults and rude 
comments and they are still going on. The new traffic on the list is 
great and the help that this list offers is beyond any list I have ever 
seen. But when an intelligent discussion falls into rude comments being 
thrown at the "old timers", "old hands", "rich people" who are too busy 
"having their own pow wow" or "are used to it and expect others to get 
used to it" or what ever other snide comments people can come up with 
then it is no longer a productive discussion and is wasting an awful 
lot of list space which is normally used in helping people.


So there are two choices, continue on in unproductive mud slinging and 
snide rude remarks and insults or let this dead horse lie and get back 
to the business at hand.


Bugzilla does work ( if your bug is not voted on may others find 
different bugs more important to them) and Rev does pay attention to 
both this list and the improve list and BZ. The comments from Mark 
recently show just that. There are all kinds of bug fixes going on as 
we speak and Rev has committed to an increase in those bug fixes and 
bug fix releases.


Tom

On Jun 30, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Dennis Brown wrote:

We can always put requests into BZ, but I believe an intelligent 
discussion should proceed that action, and that only those who are 
interested should be subjected to the additional traffic.  Perhaps it 
is time for an improve-list for the rest of us.   The discussions will 
happen anyway --if not there, then here.





Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.9, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 
2.6



Advanced Media Group
Eagle Works Art & Sculpture
Semantic Compaction Systems
Prentke Romich Company
Prentke Romich International
SCIconics, LLC
Artist
Thomas J McGrath III
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points

[Dennis Brown]

Bjoernke,

Thanks for pointing out that there is a list for those who have  
bought the high end "Professional" license to discuss improvements.   
That seems like a reasonable thing to have.  At least that explains  
why I have not been able to elicit much intelligent conversation from  
the "old hands" on my improvement suggestions --they are off having a  
private pow-wow about them, or have already discussed them in the past.


However, that does little to divide up the traffic on this list and  
allow discussion for those inventive users who have no need to spend  
twice as much for their personal programming tool as their computer.   
We can always put requests into BZ, but I believe an intelligent  
discussion should proceed that action, and that only those who are  
interested should be subjected to the additional traffic.  Perhaps it  
is time for an improve-list for the rest of us.   The discussions  
will happen anyway --if not there, then here.


Dennis

On Jun 30, 2005, at 7:35 PM, Björnke von Gierke wrote:



On Jul 01 2005, at 01:29, Dennis Brown wrote:


I would be MORE than happy to segregate my posts into the two  
different categories.
There is a lot of traffic on this list, it would make sense to  
divide up the traffic into these two areas.




There is an Improve Rev list, but only rich people are allowed to  
participate there (aka Enterprise owners). That is RunRev's  
decision, not mine of course...


sorry
Bjoernke


--

http://contest.wecode.org
Now running: the first ChatRev coding contest!
sponsors:
Altuit
Andre Garzia
Fourth World
Karl Becker
Runtime Revolution
TidBITS in cooperation with eHUG

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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points

[Richard Gaskin]

Björnke von Gierke wrote:


On Jul 01 2005, at 01:29, Dennis Brown wrote:

I would be MORE than happy to segregate my posts into the two 
different categories.
There is a lot of traffic on this list, it would make sense to divide 
up the traffic into these two areas.



There is an Improve Rev list, but only rich people are allowed to 
participate there (aka Enterprise owners). That is RunRev's decision, 
not mine of course...


I'm far from rich, just an early adopter from a time when $995 was the 
only price offered for getting on this bandwagon.  Since it paid for 
itself in the first quarter afterward, I've never regretted the 
purchase.  Most of my clients are from the era as well and they've never 
questioned the value of that purchase, though none of them own vacation 
homes on exotic New Zealand beaches (well, one does, but he lives there).


I believe the philosophy of limiting the improve-rev list to Enterprise 
users is pretty much what's been expressed by other list members here: 
there's a wide gulf between productive exchange that results in specific 
recommendations, and simple whingeing.  The presumption is that 
professionals whose livelihood is dependent on the product will 
demonstrate a stronger focus on productive outcomes.


Reading the posts here it seems no one would particularly mind 
recommendations for product improvement delivered here with productive 
professionalism.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points

[Thomas McGrath III]

I am on the Improve list and I am very very very very very very far 
from rich.


That is rather rude of you to say.

Tom


On Jun 30, 2005, at 7:35 PM, Björnke von Gierke wrote:



On Jul 01 2005, at 01:29, Dennis Brown wrote:

I would be MORE than happy to segregate my posts into the two 
different categories.
There is a lot of traffic on this list, it would make sense to divide 
up the traffic into these two areas.


There is an Improve Rev list, but only rich people are allowed to 
participate there (aka Enterprise owners). That is RunRev's decision, 
not mine of course...


sorry
Bjoernke


--

http://contest.wecode.org
Now running: the first ChatRev coding contest!
sponsors:
Altuit
Andre Garzia
Fourth World
Karl Becker
Runtime Revolution
TidBITS in cooperation with eHUG

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2.6



Advanced Media Group
Eagle Works Art & Sculpture
Semantic Compaction Systems
Prentke Romich Company
Prentke Romich International
SCIconics, LLC
Artist
Thomas J McGrath III
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points

[Thomas McGrath III]

There is the improve list at Revolution.

Tom

On Jun 30, 2005, at 7:29 PM, Dennis Brown wrote:

I did not find much in this or any other posts on this subject very 
helpful compared to the volume of email taken up --except for one 
point:


Helping with scripting questions is what this list should be about.  
Not everyone wants to debate the shortcomings --some just want advice 
on how to overcome their problems today.


Where is the other list to discuss intelligently suggestions about 
improving the language?


I would be MORE than happy to segregate my posts into the two 
different categories.
There is a lot of traffic on this list, it would make sense to divide 
up the traffic into these two areas.


Dennis

On Jun 30, 2005, at 6:54 PM, Jon wrote:


Michael:

Interesting post: thanks!

Jon


M Young wrote:



Hello everyone,

I know that I have not yet offered much scripting help etc. to 
others on this list since I do not feel I know Revolution well 
enough yet to offer good suggestions, but I would like to comment on 
a few things that I have seen posted on this list recently in 
several threads. I have attempted to attribute list posted comments 
correctly and I apologize in advance if I have made any errors. I 
also apologize in advance if anyone believes their comments are 
being incorrectly taken out of context.








Sincerely,

Michael Young
Currently Inventive User of Runtime Revolution

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2.6



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Prentke Romich International
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Thomas J McGrath III
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points

[Thomas McGrath III]

MY,

There is the improve list at Revolution where requests and improvements 
are made. I believe you need to be an Enterprise Owner to sign up for 
that list.


And as far as your comments on everyone else's comments: Most sounded 
reasonable. I agreed with a few and disagreed with others. But the 
issue I brought up remains. That is if someone is frustrated or 
disagrees with an aspect of Rev or certain bugs in Rev that does not 
give them cart blanc to insult the users on this list. Throwing around 
rude comments to the very helpful and needed people from the list does 
not help and is not except-able.


Tom

On Jun 30, 2005, at 6:04 PM, M Young wrote:

MY: Very true. The current Revolution list does not seem to be a 
productive place to request language syntax, etc. changes. In the last 
few years I have followed this Revolution list such requests seem to 
be regularly put down by old x-talk hands. May be posters should be 
directed to a more appropriate list for such discussions, presuming 
one exists.



Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.9, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 
2.6



Advanced Media Group
Eagle Works Art & Sculpture
Semantic Compaction Systems
Prentke Romich Company
Prentke Romich International
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Artist
Thomas J McGrath III
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points

[Björnke von Gierke]

On Jul 01 2005, at 01:29, Dennis Brown wrote:

I would be MORE than happy to segregate my posts into the two 
different categories.
There is a lot of traffic on this list, it would make sense to divide 
up the traffic into these two areas.


There is an Improve Rev list, but only rich people are allowed to 
participate there (aka Enterprise owners). That is RunRev's decision, 
not mine of course...


sorry
Bjoernke


--

http://contest.wecode.org
Now running: the first ChatRev coding contest!
sponsors:
Altuit
Andre Garzia
Fourth World
Karl Becker
Runtime Revolution
TidBITS in cooperation with eHUG

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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points

[Dennis Brown]

I did not find much in this or any other posts on this subject very  
helpful compared to the volume of email taken up --except for one point:


Helping with scripting questions is what this list should be about.   
Not everyone wants to debate the shortcomings --some just want advice  
on how to overcome their problems today.


Where is the other list to discuss intelligently suggestions about  
improving the language?


I would be MORE than happy to segregate my posts into the two  
different categories.
There is a lot of traffic on this list, it would make sense to divide  
up the traffic into these two areas.


Dennis

On Jun 30, 2005, at 6:54 PM, Jon wrote:


Michael:

Interesting post: thanks!

Jon


M Young wrote:



Hello everyone,

I know that I have not yet offered much scripting help etc. to  
others on this list since I do not feel I know Revolution well  
enough yet to offer good suggestions, but I would like to comment  
on a few things that I have seen posted on this list recently in  
several threads. I have attempted to attribute list posted  
comments correctly and I apologize in advance if I have made any  
errors. I also apologize in advance if anyone believes their  
comments are being incorrectly taken out of context.








Sincerely,

Michael Young
Currently Inventive User of Runtime Revolution

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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points

[Jon]

Michael:

Interesting post: thanks!

Jon


M Young wrote:


Hello everyone,

I know that I have not yet offered much scripting help etc. to others 
on this list since I do not feel I know Revolution well enough yet to 
offer good suggestions, but I would like to comment on a few things 
that I have seen posted on this list recently in several threads. I 
have attempted to attribute list posted comments correctly and I 
apologize in advance if I have made any errors. I also apologize in 
advance if anyone believes their comments are being incorrectly taken 
out of context.





Sincerely,

Michael Young
Currently Inventive User of Runtime Revolution

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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor AND Endless ranting and rude insults AND other points

[M Young]

Hello everyone,

I know that I have not yet offered much scripting help etc. to others 
on this list since I do not feel I know Revolution well enough yet to 
offer good suggestions, but I would like to comment on a few things 
that I have seen posted on this list recently in several threads. I 
have attempted to attribute list posted comments correctly and I 
apologize in advance if I have made any errors. I also apologize in 
advance if anyone believes their comments are being incorrectly taken 
out of context.



Thomas McGrath III Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:26:14 -0400: I do mind about how 
Rev progresses and grows and I for one don't want it influenced by 
these other languages or programs at all.
Michael Young (MY): I thought cross pollination of programs, languages, 
etc. is intended to advance the computer/technology/etc. state of the 
art. Granted sometimes people try to combine technologies and ideas 
that do not "belong" together, but I do not see anything wrong with the 
effort.



Judy Perry Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:25:48 -0700 (PDT): No DOT NOTATION!  
It SUX... It's hard.to.read.this:total.utter:crap!
MY: I personally find the dot notation easy to read and sometimes even 
find it easier to read than x-talk syntax that I am still learning. By 
your acting as self appointed defender of the x-talk/Revolution faith, 
I personally did not find your SHOUTING to be very 
professional/pleasant/etc.



Scott Kane Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:47:55 +1000: I guarantee if people using 
Rev went to the Borland newsgroups and demanded x-code there's be a 
whole bunch of laughter - and so it should be with others coming to 
Rev.
MY: Very true. The current Revolution list does not seem to be a 
productive place to request language syntax, etc. changes. In the last 
few years I have followed this Revolution list such requests seem to be 
regularly put down by old x-talk hands. May be posters should be 
directed to a more appropriate list for such discussions, presuming one 
exists.



Richard Gaskin Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:53:49 -0700: A lot of people from a 
wide range of programming backgrounds have learned Rev easily with the 
help of the folks here.
MY: Very true, however I find that the old x-talk hands on this list 
expect all new Rev users to be programming neophytes. "Dan [Shafer] 
coined the term "Inventive User" to describe people who use programs 
like Revolution to create solutions to their own problems without 
necessarily becoming professional programmers in the process." ( 
http://www.altuit.com/webs/altuit/RevConWest/Sponsors.htm ) The problem 
is some new Revolution users are professional programmers and just as I 
am sure that many list members would consider themselves professional 
programmers. It is not appropriate for old x-talk hands to expect 
professional programmers to forget all programming 
techniques/environments/languages/etc they have learned, just as it is 
not appropriate for professional programmers new to Revolution to 
expect language syntax changes to be the only thing that changes when 
they move to Revolution and they even want to use their old language 
syntax in Revolution.



Scott Kane Wed, 29 Jun 2005 15:20:09 +1000: The Rev community (the 
developers using Rev) don't take them selves as seriously as other 
languages - by that I mean they aren't jumping on newbie's and telling 
them to RTFM. Common with Delphi, C++, Visual Basic etc.
MY: Very true. I have been following 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] in the last few weeks. 
That list is very rough and tumble compared with this Revolution list.



Bob Warren Wed, 29 Jun 2005 04:30:07 -0300: I like it [x-talk or Rev, I 
am not quite sure what "it" is] too. In fact, I think that Rev has so 
much in its favour - its philosophy, the Transcript language, even the 
IDE and (yes!) the script editor - that I feel outraged that anyone can 
treat it with so little respect that they continue to let it be riddled 
with bugs. I have been involved with computers since the  early 1960s, 
so perhaps I am a little out of fashion in my attitude towards bugs. In 
my time, they were things to be exterminated urgently. I never thought 
of keeping them as pets, adoring them or even selling them!
MY: Yes. Revolution bugs need to go away. Bugs cause unexpected 
behavior that will turn off potential new Revolution/Dreamcard 
customers. Besides I have paid a lot of money for a product that I 
expect to simply work.



Bob Warren Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:13:10 -0300: I share your indignation at 
some of the scandalous generalizations that have been made on this 
List, and I think it is a pity. But the other side of the coin is that 
comparisons with other languages is, or should be, natural and normal, 
and I see no good reason for creating taboos in this respect. A worse 
situation would be if Revolution became a closed community, not 
admitting "foreign" influences, criticisms, comparisons or suggestions. 
We all know what madness this leads to.

MY: I agree completely.


Mark

RE: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[MisterX]

As Mark said, i too have used a myriad script editors, i too watched in
total delight the war of rants carpet bombing today's mailist delivery in
favor of more "single-minded" it-has-to-work-this-way-or-it-s-worthless
attitude. While this is a common MacOnly or PC-only user affliction, i've
seen some amazing quotables on this without any scientific or any kind of
common-sense background research to base them upon. PC users are quite a
pragmatic kind of CPU user. Other than the mindless or clueless users we
encounter in business, and homes or in some forums, the self-respecting PC
user is more like an expert in PCs whereas a Mac User is just a Design and
GUI ergonomics freak. 

I did my share of ranting about the RevScriptEditor and the GM but i was
totally put down by many. I wrote countless times to Kevin until he no
longuer wanted to hear from me. I wrote countless bugzillas to which very
few ever voted - probably due to my ranterPro image. Now, im just savouring
the moment without a word - but at least with a message to tell you that if
ANY of you want to work in multiplatform, you have to LEARN HOW the other
platform works. If it's not the Mac way, there is another way - and it's not
necessarily bad or millions of PC users wouldn't do it every day. I agree
before and still today, there's that feel of cheap quality in PC software
but there's also the fact that PCs are no longuer inferior to Macs. And
while Mac users refined the design of the OS and GUI, PC users have been
tuning their PCs to smoke anything for a lower price - and believe me, they
do! Mac's a no longuer leading the hardware - haven't since the PPC 604 (G2)
i would say. But that's besides the point - PC users like Mac users, want
the shortest route to their information - just like Regular editing as it
should work on a Mac or a PC. So a PC user confronted with a Mac editor is
missing almost half the keyboard shortcuts possible with a PC. And here, in
Rev, even Control-shift-arrowdown doesn't work in fields though if you know
what i mean ;) 

Here's a fact of life: editing with a keyboard - knowing your control-keys
or being able to alt-menuname-menuitem/arrow/keypad - is just about the
fastest way you can edit - without repeated trips to the mouse, the menu,
the menu item - wait for the menu, etc... 

LOL

I went from Mac to PC the moment I tried raphsody! Not because i didn't want
a NeXT OS finally running on my mac - which i really finally got! I even
managed to make a raphsody work fast (killing lots of processes) but it took
weeks to configure... And no apps.

Then i had to do a job on NT, took 1/4 administration course in NT
networking and hop, i was on the PC. Lots of reading! That's for sure. Lots
of try and fail - or careful reading - lots of weird stuff - but never more
than a crash a month or even a year on some pcs. I never saw a mac handle
that! ;) OK, NT is not W98 and I meant W2000. And the funniest thing is that
it took Moft until '98 to get a "clean and nicer OS that really runs! It's a
VMS engine under and they licenced the w95 gui from NeXT - so what do you
say to that?

Today, i work in an enterprise with over 6 teras of "files", i heard they
restore a 1-2 TB DB from testing 2-3 times a week, we have giga bit all
over, total security and audits, and im sure macs could fit in but the way
it's running now, the client's PC is a 100-200 thin client running on
metaframes - and that's 3000 clients... Lots of clients for Rev software
developpers but if your software feels less that lotus notes (the worst
enterprise software i've experienced), then you might not compete to other
developpers with standard "text editing" tools.

In fact in the banking business we still run lots of "terminal" accesses to
mainframes with no graphics whatsoever... Thanks for macros right? ;)

Enough said. Keep an open-mind - just as if you were traveling into another
country (you HAVE travelled to another country have you?) and DO TRY to
document yourself adequately on the OTHER world before bitching.

This is a great occasion where PC users may learn something like Mac users
like Unix like Linux, and so on. As far as im concerned, im working on a
revival of my Script Editor with more features than you could throw at! Plus
it comes with the context editors of TAOO so unlimited extensions and
libraries insertions, convertions, translations coloring, hierarchical views
of the code or addon-props/objs/values/etc, and an auto-type like i've still
haven't seen out there!

It's a shame i had to take such a long route to get back to the original mod
i made of the MC editor but it's also the best i've done to correct the
current editors' lack of editing-ease and bring in all the features "i"
wanted.

Anyway, i hope this is more productive than some of the regular blabla we
hear or features we are forced to use (whether on PCs or in Rev = double
whamy if you use both)! I guess that leaves Mac users on a good looking but
slow self-guided missile and linux use

Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Alex Tweedly]

Jeanne A. E. DeVoto wrote:


At 12:27 PM +0100 6/29/2005, Alex Tweedly wrote:

Or turn off the auto-format feature, for heaven's sake. It's not as 
though it were difficult, if you want to manually format scripts to 
your liking.



It prevents "live-formatting" - but it still allows TAB to reformat 
the entire handler, thereby destroying any manual formatting.



Would it be too complicated to not press the Tab key nor choose 
"Format This Handler", if you don't want the script reformatted?


Yes, it would be,. It's like having the "Page Down" key be a "permanent 
delete" key, and saying "Just don't press it".


Tab is probably the third most frequently used key on my keyboard (after 
return and delete). It's used to move from one control to another, to 
switch windows and apps and (in the 12 hours a day I use Rev but not the 
script editor, or programs other than Rev) to separate items and 
generally to format text. Trying to get my fingers to avoid it is indeed 
difficult.


(Of course, I personally use it all the time because I *want* Rev's 
auto-formatting - I just wish it was even more automatic; but I was 
responding to your earlier suggestion from the POV of someone who didn't 
want it :-)




--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net



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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 12:27 PM +0100 6/29/2005, Alex Tweedly wrote:
Or turn off the auto-format feature, for heaven's sake. It's not as 
though it were difficult, if you want to manually format scripts to 
your liking.


It prevents "live-formatting" - but it still allows TAB to reformat 
the entire handler, thereby destroying any manual formatting.


Would it be too complicated to not press the Tab key nor choose 
"Format This Handler", if you don't want the script reformatted?

--
jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jaedworks.com
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jim MacConnell]

Jon,

You're not coming off as annoying... just very set in your ways.  
Indenting style is a personal preference and Rev indents the way I've  
seen all xTalks indent and the way I like to do it... a holdover from  
very old debugging habits using a ruler on printouts to check for  
proper looping sad isn't it . It would be an interesting  
feature to be able to choose the style of indenting (and to toggle  
between them) but that's a bit beyond the current discussion.


 I understand that not being able to use the same keyboard approach,  
etc. that you are used to is a pain but I think calling the editor  
"buggy", "bizarre", etc. because it is different than you are used to  
is a bit unfair.


One of the things to remember ( and others will have to help me with  
details here) is that Rev is relatively young and is coming from a  
community well versed in xTalk and the quirks of previous versions.  
So your experience of

having used decent tools for years and years
is potentially skewed when compared to Rev's status if only  
because of the evolution of your other tools Perhaps patience,  
learning a few new "habits" and doing just what you are doing...  
making suggestions and recommendations.. will help ease the  
frustration and help you see that "we" don't necessarily have a
parochial attitude about these problem areas. Simply saying "well,  
we don't mind it, so you shouldn't mind" seems beside the point.


I think what "we" are trying to do is explain what Rev is doing (it  
isn't  necessarily a bug) and offer assistance as possible (like the  
"tab" thing) so you can get past the annoyance aspects of the editor.


Jim

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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jon]

Mark:

Great post!

Jon


Mark Waddingham wrote:


Hi all,

I've been reading this thread this morning and it does seem to have
become somewhat of a 'holy war' which I'm sure is not what anybody
intended.

I have used, and use on a daily basis, a myriad of IDEs - including the
more recent ones mentioned by individuals involved in this thread. Most
other language IDE's do not auto-format code, they just help to set the
cursor at the correct point for you to type what you want, or move
statements to the previous indent level that you had set implicitly by
typing. Indeed, they generally all do this slightly differently and this
can be a real headache when you use three distinct IDEs to do C++
development and have to constantly switch between them.

Looking at history, I think the reason for this is because most
environments have not been bold enough to stand up and say "We think
code should be formatted *this* way because it makes sense" - and indeed
for other languages this is perfectly valid as most of them originated
before the time of fancy editors (i.e. when you had to use a standard
text-editor to do your scripting). The xTalk genre of languages is,
however, slightly different in that auto-formatting in the strong sense
was in the environments from the start. This means that many people have
grown up accustomed to not having to worry about formatting when
programming in the various flavours of xTalk.

Now, to Bob and others of you who have come from other backgrounds (and
I am one of those) then - yes - shifting environments can be a headache
(and indeed immensely frustrating on occasion) at first. However, on
this particular issue, I would ask you all to consider doing the
following for a while: stop worrying about formatting - use tab to auto-
format your handlers periodically and forget about it. I reckon after a
couple of weeks of trying this, you'll fall into the xTalk way of
formatting and never look back - I know I have.

Now, to all of you who have been using Revolution and other similar
tools for years: please do not forget that there is more than one to do
things and there is a great deal of merit in both what has been proposed
and in the way other environments work (this does not mean we will ever
throw out the existing behaviour, but it is not unreasonable to give
users the choice). A great deal of HCI research will have gone into
every IDE that you see and we can either ignore it in our arrogance or
learn from it to make Revolution the best tool it can be.

To both parties (just to re-iterate) please do not fall into the habit
of thinking that either:
 1) Just because Revolution doesn't work the way another tool does,
that Revolution is wrong.
 2) Just because Revolution does something a different way from another
tool, the other tool is wrong.
Bugs aside, there will always be reasons why one feature works a way it
does: regardless of what tool you are talking about.

Finally, on bugs... Although it may appear as though we don't, we know
the Script Editor has bugs - it needs an overhaul and we are actively
looking into this. However, I think the general concensus is that once
you have used it for a while it is a perfectly productive component that
will serve you well most of the time. So, if you come across a specific
reproducible issue then please do file it in Bugzilla, and similarly if
you have an idea for how you think it can be made better please file it
as an enhancement in Bugzilla.

Warmest Regards,

Mark Waddinghham
Chief Technical Officer.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com
  Runtime Revolution ~ User-Centric Development Tools

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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Mark Waddingham]

Hi all,

I've been reading this thread this morning and it does seem to have
become somewhat of a 'holy war' which I'm sure is not what anybody
intended.

I have used, and use on a daily basis, a myriad of IDEs - including the
more recent ones mentioned by individuals involved in this thread. Most
other language IDE's do not auto-format code, they just help to set the
cursor at the correct point for you to type what you want, or move
statements to the previous indent level that you had set implicitly by
typing. Indeed, they generally all do this slightly differently and this
can be a real headache when you use three distinct IDEs to do C++
development and have to constantly switch between them.

Looking at history, I think the reason for this is because most
environments have not been bold enough to stand up and say "We think
code should be formatted *this* way because it makes sense" - and indeed
for other languages this is perfectly valid as most of them originated
before the time of fancy editors (i.e. when you had to use a standard
text-editor to do your scripting). The xTalk genre of languages is,
however, slightly different in that auto-formatting in the strong sense
was in the environments from the start. This means that many people have
grown up accustomed to not having to worry about formatting when
programming in the various flavours of xTalk.

Now, to Bob and others of you who have come from other backgrounds (and
I am one of those) then - yes - shifting environments can be a headache
(and indeed immensely frustrating on occasion) at first. However, on
this particular issue, I would ask you all to consider doing the
following for a while: stop worrying about formatting - use tab to auto-
format your handlers periodically and forget about it. I reckon after a
couple of weeks of trying this, you'll fall into the xTalk way of
formatting and never look back - I know I have.

Now, to all of you who have been using Revolution and other similar
tools for years: please do not forget that there is more than one to do
things and there is a great deal of merit in both what has been proposed
and in the way other environments work (this does not mean we will ever
throw out the existing behaviour, but it is not unreasonable to give
users the choice). A great deal of HCI research will have gone into
every IDE that you see and we can either ignore it in our arrogance or
learn from it to make Revolution the best tool it can be.

To both parties (just to re-iterate) please do not fall into the habit
of thinking that either:
  1) Just because Revolution doesn't work the way another tool does,
that Revolution is wrong.
  2) Just because Revolution does something a different way from another
tool, the other tool is wrong.
Bugs aside, there will always be reasons why one feature works a way it
does: regardless of what tool you are talking about.

Finally, on bugs... Although it may appear as though we don't, we know
the Script Editor has bugs - it needs an overhaul and we are actively
looking into this. However, I think the general concensus is that once
you have used it for a while it is a perfectly productive component that
will serve you well most of the time. So, if you come across a specific
reproducible issue then please do file it in Bugzilla, and similarly if
you have an idea for how you think it can be made better please file it
as an enhancement in Bugzilla.

Warmest Regards,

Mark Waddinghham
Chief Technical Officer.

--
 Mark Waddingham ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com
   Runtime Revolution ~ User-Centric Development Tools

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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Eric Chatonet]

Hello,

I did not follow the whole thread since the list is growing every day  
and due to time difference, I find about 60 new contributions when I  
wake up each morning...


But I have to say that I *never* had any problem with the indent  
feature:
As long as you consider that indenting is there to help the  
programmer to see which control structures are missing or not set  
properly, it *must* be an automatic feature :-)
It's a well known behaviour since more than 20 years with all XTalks  
(including the tabKey shortcut).

And Rev is an XTalk :-)

Fortunately, Rev auto-complete control structures (repeat, switch,  
on, etc.)

This is a welcome enhancement that HC did not provide.
Stay the "if" conditional structures with many ways to write them  
(see my article on RevJournal) that are not auto completed for this  
matter.
The rule I follow since years is to complete by myself the control  
structure before writing the statements.

Above all, it makes nested structures easier to manage.

You might be interested by the Constellation script editor from Jerry  
Daniels : it offers to specify how many spaces have to be used for  
indentation. http://www.daniels-mara.com/products/constellation.htm


In addition, you might require as a feature the ability to turn off  
indentation since only "live" indentation can be turned off at the  
moment.
But I'm sure that a huge majority of programmers who are used to  
would not turn off this feature ;-)


[OT] The only annoying feature I know relates to colorisation when  
you use the /* structure to comment many lines at once: Then all  
yours scripts appear as comments :-(
As for the debugger (which is another topic), it's true that it's  
very buggy, sometimes unusable and that's a very pity.


Le 29 juin 05 à 03:48, Bob Warren a écrit :


Here is a line with no indent
Here is a line with an indent


Best Regards from Paris,

Eric Chatonet.

So Smart Software

For institutions, companies and associations
Built-to-order applications: management, multimedia, internet, etc.
Windows, Mac OS and Linux... With the French touch

Free plugins and tutorials on my website

Web sitehttp://www.sosmartsoftware.com/
Email[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Phone33 (0)1 43 31 77 62
Mobile33 (0)6 20 74 50 86


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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Alex Tweedly]

Jeanne A. E. DeVoto wrote:



Or turn off the auto-format feature, for heaven's sake. It's not as 
though it were difficult, if you want to manually format scripts to 
your liking.


Because de-selecting that button doesn't turn it off completely.

It prevents "live-formatting" - but it still allows TAB to reformat the 
entire handler, thereby destroying any manual formatting. Needless to 
say, Undo doesn't.



--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net



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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jon]

Truth...

:)

Jon


Richard Gaskin wrote:


Thomas McGrath III wrote:

I don't know Jacqueline, I found it right away since I wanted to 
become proficient with Rev and naturally looked up the shortcuts.


tab seemed natural to me coming from SC and HC before that.



I've seen tab used for indentint in a lot of editors.  In fact, most 
of 'em.


With Rev you get a lot of tabbing with just one keystroke. :)


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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jon]

It sounds to me as if Tom, coming from HC and SC, found some things to 
be "natural", while I, coming from the UCSD Pascal P-System Advanced 
System Editor (pre-dates the IBM PC entirely), and then, with lots of 
grumbling, Delphi, find it not-so-natural.


I've heard lots of defenders for the current editor, and lots of people 
saying "don't change it", but I've not heard many people with actual 
experience with both the VB and Delphi editors AND Rev who come down on 
the side of the Rev editor.  Maybe it's been said and I've not noticed.


Tom: have you actually USED some of the other UIs?  I may be wrong: you 
(and others) may be experienced in these UIs.  But, if not, perhaps you 
might use them before you reject the ideas I've been promoting (prompted 
by Bob's original (and much more tactful) emails.


I've written an auto-indent editor. I know how difficult it is to get it 
to be easy to use. The kinds of behaviors I'm seeing in the Rev editor 
are EXACTLY like the kinds of behavior I saw in my editor before I spent 
weeks fine-tuning it.


Jon


Thomas McGrath III wrote:

I don't know Jacqueline, I found it right away since I wanted to 
become proficient with Rev and naturally looked up the shortcuts.


tab seemed natural to me coming from SC and HC before that.

Tom

On Jun 29, 2005, at 12:06 AM, J. Landman Gay wrote:


On 6/28/05 5:54 PM, Jon wrote:

> And, BTW, I NEVER would have guessed that the  key did ANYTHING
> other than enter  characters into the text.  This is a great
> example of a totally bizarre UI that you folks have become so used to
> that you can't see the strangeness of it.

Not an excuse, but an explanation: HyperCard started this convention 
20 years ago. SuperCard took it up to be compatible and continued it. 
When MetaCard came along, it too adopted the same tab-key behavior. 
Revolution continues the long tradition. So, there have been four 
x-talk IDEs that use this convention spanning many years. And that's 
why.


In Revolution, it is mentioned in the Help menu -> Quick Reference 
Guides -> Shortcut Reference. I admit this isn't easy to find.



--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jon]

Jaque:

Thanks for the polite explanation.  I wondered whether this might have 
been because early Macs did not have function keys (I don't recall: I 
had a Fat Mac decades ago, but then gave up on trying to support both 
platforms).  In that case, the designers had few choices, and I guess 
that  is somewhat non-printing.


Jon


J. Landman Gay wrote:


On 6/28/05 5:54 PM, Jon wrote:

> And, BTW, I NEVER would have guessed that the  key did ANYTHING
> other than enter  characters into the text.  This is a great
> example of a totally bizarre UI that you folks have become so used to
> that you can't see the strangeness of it.

Not an excuse, but an explanation: HyperCard started this convention 
20 years ago. SuperCard took it up to be compatible and continued it. 
When MetaCard came along, it too adopted the same tab-key behavior. 
Revolution continues the long tradition. So, there have been four 
x-talk IDEs that use this convention spanning many years. And that's why.


In Revolution, it is mentioned in the Help menu -> Quick Reference 
Guides -> Shortcut Reference. I admit this isn't easy to find.




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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jon]

Tom:

Sorry that my rhetoric has gotten out of hand.  I'll try to tone it back.

I agree that I did not read the docs.  I disagree that using a printing 
key for a non-printing function is intuitive or good design.


Jon



Thomas McGrath III wrote:

Actually you sound very annoying and you seem to blatantly want to 
attack everyone on the list with rude comments.  It is getting quite 
old by now.


I for one read the docs and saw that tab forces the formatting. So 
maybe instead of constantly bitching you should read the docs.



tom

On Jun 28, 2005, at 6:54 PM, Jon wrote:

I know I'm coming off as being a bit annoying, but it is frustrating 
after having used decent tools for years and years to discover the 
number of buggy areas in Rev that the rest of you seem to take for 
granted.  It is very off-putting to experienced programmers from 
other platforms.



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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jon]

Chipp:

I'm slightly annoyed at the auto-format feature ( key), because it 
does not support my particular and unconventional style, but I accept that.


I'm much more frustrated with what I see as the buggy way the 
auto-indent feature works.  It gets in the way more often than it helps, 
and I've seen better UIs that do not get in the user's way.


Perhaps we should distinguish between the two features.  I think that 
Bob and I are more concerned about the auto-indent feature


Maybe we need an auto-auto-format feature, where the  key is 
pressed for us, behind the scenes, after each key stroke 


Jon



Chipp Walters wrote:


Bob,

I understand both you and Jon are frustrated by the indenting of the 
script editor and it's duly noted. It's difficult to switch paradigms.


In a quick search of all the back use-revolution posts, I could only 
find 6 references to "indent + script + editor" in over 262,000 posts, 
and none of them shared your individual concerns. Perhaps it's time to 
make a note in Bugzilla for a feature request and let it go at that.


Or, if you're up to it, create you own script editor which indents 
however you like, or use Trevor's handy BBedit script, then you can 
use BBedit to format your scripts any way you like.


best regards,

Chipp



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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jon]

Well said, Bob!

Jon


Bob Warren wrote:


I can sum up a little on what I object to in the script editor by saying
that I expect an editor to do what I want it to do, not what IT wants ME to
do. Automatic formatting may well be an advantage in a number of respects,
but at what cost? What's the good of it if it makes the most simple
operations twice as difficult as they would be otherwise? Here is a very
simple example of what I am talking about:

Here is a line with no indent
   Here is a line with an indent

How do I remove the indent in the 2nd line? In VB, all I have to do is
position the cursor before the indented "H" of the 2nd line and then hit
BACKSPACE. Alternatively, I can position the cursor at the very beginning of
the line before the indent and then hit DELETE repeatedly to remove the 4
blank characters constituting the indent. I would choose the first option,
of course. (The advantage of being able to remove single blanks rather
chunks of 4 is that I can create indents of only 1 or 2 characters if I
want. As I explained previously, if I create a new line above or below a
given line, the indentation of the new lines matches that of the original,
even when the size of the indentation is non-standard.)

In Word, there is no possibility of positioning the cursor at the beginning
of the line before the indent. Just like Rev, it gets positioned immediately
before the "H". However, if I type BACKSPACE, Word simply removes the
indent.

But what do I have to do in Revolution? First of all, I find that wherever I
try to position the cursor on the LHS of the 2nd line, it ends up positioned
after the indent, immediately before the "H". Then I hit BACKSPACE which
gives the following result:

Here is a line with no indentHere is a line with an indent

The cursor is positioned between the 2 sentences. Then, I have to type ENTER
to separate the lines:

Here is a line with no indent
Here is a line with an indent (that has now had its indent removed)

How does such eccentric behaviour balance with the advantages of
auto-formatting?

Summing up on the question of bugs, I suggested that the Rev editor should
be simplified merely because whoever programmed it seemed to be biting off
more than he could chew, evidenced by the bugs and confusions that still
remain in the editor after years of use. If the author is NOT biting off
more than he can chew, or if the current Rev team responsible for it are not
biting off more than they can chew, then I suggest they PROVE ME WRONG,
AND THE SOONER THE BETTER!









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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Mark Smith]

I don't think anyone has really suggested that you shouldn't mind. But 
it's the nature of this list for people to offer workarounds and show 
examples of how they deal with things. For what it's worth, I agree 
that the script editor is buggy in it's formatting, but not so much 
that you can't work. As for the tabkey thing, it's an xTalk perennial, 
and I, for one, would be really annoyed if it changed.


Cheers,

Mark


On 28 Jun 2005, at 23:54, Jon wrote:

Simply saying "well, we don't mind it, so you shouldn't mind" seems 
beside the point.


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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Richard Gaskin]

Bob Warren wrote:

P.S. Sorry about some of the lines above that have orphaned a few odd
words here and there. I need a new editor!


In its most basic form, a Rev script editor is just a field in a stack. 
 The field is loaded with the script in response to the editScript 
message (trappable in a frontScript if you want to get the message 
before the Rev editor does), and the script is just a property saved to 
the object with the save command ("set the script of  to 

Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Bob Warren]

Dear David,

Please see my answers below, interspersed with your comments.

>I should probably just stay out of this, but a few comments have my
>dander up.  First, distinguish more clearly between bugs and style.

Point taken. I think you're right. However, at the moment it is a little
difficult to make the distinction, since a few too many bugs obviously
exist, and this has been confirmed by old-hands such as yourself and
not just relative newcomers. However, the fact that you define something
as a question of "style" does not make it arbitrary. A given aspect is
either a good idea or a bad idea, and whether it is one or the other is
a matter of consensus I would have thought.

>  To
>those of you from other backgrounds, x-talk is different. Many of us
>like it this way.

I like it too. In fact, I think that Rev has so much in its favour - its
philosophy,
the Transcript language, even the IDE and (yes!) the script editor - that
I feel outraged that anyone can treat it with so little respect that they
continue to let it be riddled with bugs. I have been involved with
computers since the  early 1960s, so perhaps I am a little out of fashion
in my attitude towards bugs. In my time, they were things to be
exterminated urgently. I never thought of keeping them as pets,
adoring them or even selling them!

>There are more important things for the developers to
>be doing than adding features from other languages to suit a few migrants.

I wouldn't change a language to suit a few migrants either. But if a
suggested feature, from another language or straight out of someone's
head, makes sense within the context of the language under consideration,
why not adopt it? I would have thought that the only real consideration
is whether the suggestion is practical. Even old hands accept changes
when they make the task of programming easier. And not all old hands
are entirely uncritical of the tools they use.

I would say that there are more important things for the developers to
be doing than adding features to their "own" language to suit a few
old cronies. Debugging is one of them.

>Bob Warren wrote:

>>In Word, there is no possibility of positioning the cursor at the
beginning

The whole paragraph was as follows:
"In Word, there is no possibility of positioning the cursor at the beginning
of the line before the indent. Just like Rev, it gets positioned immediately
before the "H". However, if I type BACKSPACE, Word simply removes the
indent."

Convention in program design is important. For example, if you have a
program open in front of you, what would you say if the File menu was on
the right and the Help menu was on the left? Even this little thing would
make most people uneasy. No, programming is a kind of universal language
and we need to preserve communication with other people by respecting
their expectancies. Though I find the individuality of X-Talk refreshing,
I wouldn't suggest for one minute that it should use a totally
unconventional
script editor. In SOME respects, the Rev editor borders on the
unconventional, and I don't think this is a good thing. That's all I wanted
to
point out.

>How you can even think of bringing Word into this discussion is
>amazing.  It's got to be one of the most "let me think for you, you're
>too stupid" programs ever produced.  I'm constantly trying to undo its
>choices.

Are you telling me that you react emotionally towards Word just like an
impetuous newcomer might react towards the Rev script editor? My
very complaint about the Rev script editor is that it tries too much to
think
for me.


>Much of the discussion reminds me of people who move to a new country
>and constantly bitch about it, until all around them want to tell them
>to go back where they came from.

The psychology of migration is interesting. I know this because more than
30 years ago I moved from London to Brazil, entering into an environment
controlled by a military regime worse than I imagine existed in communist
Russia. "Adaption" does not mean imitating the natives like monkeys or
parrots. People who have little or no experience in emigration or even in
migration often speak in these terms. This is a vast subject, so I will not
discuss it in more detail here. What I will say is that there is a
significant
difference between "bitching" and constructive criticism. However, I don't
mind bitching about Rev's bugs. They've got to go.

Bob

P.S. Sorry about some of the lines above that have orphaned a few odd
words here and there. I need a new editor!

>Dave





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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Chipp Walters]

Jeanne A. E. DeVoto wrote:

Or turn off the auto-format feature, for heaven's sake. It's not as 
though it were difficult, if you want to manually format scripts to your 
liking.


Are you kidding me? ROFL!!!
Yep, it's right there in the Prefs. aha!

-Chipp


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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 10:51 PM -0500 6/28/2005, Chipp Walters wrote:
In a quick search of all the back use-revolution posts, I could only 
find 6 references to "indent + script + editor" in over 262,000 
posts, and none of them shared your individual concerns. Perhaps 
it's time to make a note in Bugzilla for a feature request and let 
it go at that.


Or, if you're up to it, create you own script editor which indents 
however you like, or use Trevor's handy BBedit script, then you can 
use BBedit to format your scripts any way you like.


Or turn off the auto-format feature, for heaven's sake. It's not as 
though it were difficult, if you want to manually format scripts to 
your liking.

--
jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jaedworks.com
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Richard Gaskin]

Thomas McGrath III wrote:
I don't know Jacqueline, I found it right away since I wanted to become 
proficient with Rev and naturally looked up the shortcuts.


tab seemed natural to me coming from SC and HC before that.


I've seen tab used for indentint in a lot of editors.  In fact, most of 'em.

With Rev you get a lot of tabbing with just one keystroke. :)

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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Thomas McGrath III]

I don't know Jacqueline, I found it right away since I wanted to become 
proficient with Rev and naturally looked up the shortcuts.


tab seemed natural to me coming from SC and HC before that.

Tom

On Jun 29, 2005, at 12:06 AM, J. Landman Gay wrote:


On 6/28/05 5:54 PM, Jon wrote:

> And, BTW, I NEVER would have guessed that the  key did ANYTHING
> other than enter  characters into the text.  This is a great
> example of a totally bizarre UI that you folks have become so used to
> that you can't see the strangeness of it.

Not an excuse, but an explanation: HyperCard started this convention 
20 years ago. SuperCard took it up to be compatible and continued it. 
When MetaCard came along, it too adopted the same tab-key behavior. 
Revolution continues the long tradition. So, there have been four 
x-talk IDEs that use this convention spanning many years. And that's 
why.


In Revolution, it is mentioned in the Help menu -> Quick Reference 
Guides -> Shortcut Reference. I admit this isn't easy to find.



--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Macintosh PowerBook G-4 OSX 10.3.8, OS 9.2.2, 1.25 GHz, 512MB RAM, Rev 
2.5



Advanced Media Group
Thomas J McGrath III
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[J. Landman Gay]

On 6/28/05 5:54 PM, Jon wrote:

> And, BTW, I NEVER would have guessed that the  key did ANYTHING
> other than enter  characters into the text.  This is a great
> example of a totally bizarre UI that you folks have become so used to
> that you can't see the strangeness of it.

Not an excuse, but an explanation: HyperCard started this convention 20 
years ago. SuperCard took it up to be compatible and continued it. When 
MetaCard came along, it too adopted the same tab-key behavior. 
Revolution continues the long tradition. So, there have been four x-talk 
IDEs that use this convention spanning many years. And that's why.


In Revolution, it is mentioned in the Help menu -> Quick Reference 
Guides -> Shortcut Reference. I admit this isn't easy to find.



--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Chipp Walters]

Bob,

I understand both you and Jon are frustrated by the indenting of the 
script editor and it's duly noted. It's difficult to switch paradigms.


In a quick search of all the back use-revolution posts, I could only 
find 6 references to "indent + script + editor" in over 262,000 posts, 
and none of them shared your individual concerns. Perhaps it's time to 
make a note in Bugzilla for a feature request and let it go at that.


Or, if you're up to it, create you own script editor which indents 
however you like, or use Trevor's handy BBedit script, then you can use 
BBedit to format your scripts any way you like.


best regards,

Chipp


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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Thomas McGrath III]

Actually you sound very annoying and you seem to blatantly want to 
attack everyone on the list with rude comments.  It is getting quite 
old by now.


I for one read the docs and saw that tab forces the formatting. So 
maybe instead of constantly bitching you should read the docs.



tom

On Jun 28, 2005, at 6:54 PM, Jon wrote:

I know I'm coming off as being a bit annoying, but it is frustrating 
after having used decent tools for years and years to discover the 
number of buggy areas in Rev that the rest of you seem to take for 
granted.  It is very off-putting to experienced programmers from other 
platforms.


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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[David Squance]

I should probably just stay out of this, but a few comments have my 
dander up.  First, distinguish more clearly between bugs and style.  To 
those of you from other backgrounds, x-talk is different. Many of us 
like it this way.  There are more important things for the developers to 
be doing than adding features from other languages to suit a few migrants.


Bob Warren wrote:


In Word, there is no possibility of positioning the cursor at the beginning

 

How you can even think of bringing Word into this discussion is 
amazing.  It's got to be one of the most "let me think for you, you're 
too stupid" programs ever produced.  I'm constantly trying to undo its 
choices.


Much of the discussion reminds me of people who move to a new country 
and constantly bitch about it, until all around them want to tell them 
to go back where they came from.

Dave
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Bob Warren]

I can sum up a little on what I object to in the script editor by saying
that I expect an editor to do what I want it to do, not what IT wants ME to
do. Automatic formatting may well be an advantage in a number of respects,
but at what cost? What's the good of it if it makes the most simple
operations twice as difficult as they would be otherwise? Here is a very
simple example of what I am talking about:

Here is a line with no indent
Here is a line with an indent

How do I remove the indent in the 2nd line? In VB, all I have to do is
position the cursor before the indented "H" of the 2nd line and then hit
BACKSPACE. Alternatively, I can position the cursor at the very beginning of
the line before the indent and then hit DELETE repeatedly to remove the 4
blank characters constituting the indent. I would choose the first option,
of course. (The advantage of being able to remove single blanks rather
chunks of 4 is that I can create indents of only 1 or 2 characters if I
want. As I explained previously, if I create a new line above or below a
given line, the indentation of the new lines matches that of the original,
even when the size of the indentation is non-standard.)

In Word, there is no possibility of positioning the cursor at the beginning
of the line before the indent. Just like Rev, it gets positioned immediately
before the "H". However, if I type BACKSPACE, Word simply removes the
indent.

But what do I have to do in Revolution? First of all, I find that wherever I
try to position the cursor on the LHS of the 2nd line, it ends up positioned
after the indent, immediately before the "H". Then I hit BACKSPACE which
gives the following result:

Here is a line with no indentHere is a line with an indent

The cursor is positioned between the 2 sentences. Then, I have to type ENTER
to separate the lines:

Here is a line with no indent
Here is a line with an indent (that has now had its indent removed)

How does such eccentric behaviour balance with the advantages of
auto-formatting?

Summing up on the question of bugs, I suggested that the Rev editor should
be simplified merely because whoever programmed it seemed to be biting off
more than he could chew, evidenced by the bugs and confusions that still
remain in the editor after years of use. If the author is NOT biting off
more than he can chew, or if the current Rev team responsible for it are not
biting off more than they can chew, then I suggest they PROVE ME WRONG,
AND THE SOONER THE BETTER!









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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Robert Brenstein]

 >

 > We could argue all month about style but



As I said "We could argue all month about style " and, knowing this list, we
will.
Putting "end" in line with the statements is inconsistent with the standard
xTalk way of handling handlers:



Well, not much to argue really. In C, there are at least 3 major (as 
in popular) ways of positioning braces to mark the blocks. So it is 
quite normal that newcomers to Rev bring their habits and preferences 
with them. But just like they (I mean you guys) have to get used to 
xTalk syntax, they (you) will get used to a bit different indenting 
of blocks and layout of code.


Having 'end if' aligned with 'if' and 'else' is quite logical, if one 
thinks about it. After all, that 'end' ends that block. Braces give a 
totally different optical effect and C does not require to have each 
in a separate line.


Real bugs in editor are a different story. I wonder whether they are 
reported in Bugzilla. Newcomers surely are more likely to find some 
bugs since we the oldtimers learned to use the editor in a 'safe' way 
over the years.


Robert
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jon]

Alex Tweedly wrote:


Jon wrote:

OK, so, here is how I would like code to be formatted (not that I 
expect it to change, just FYI).

  
if [statement] then
  [statements]
  end if  -- note I always line my ENDs up with the internal statements

There is a reason for this: if I want to clip the final line out, I 
can just do a  and not have to back up to get rid 
of the "EN" that was accidentally included.  This is one of the 
annoyances with the current script editor, something that does not 
happen with the Delphi editor.


But you still have that problem with the statement before the "else" 
(and before the end of repeat, switch, case, end of handler, ...); 
Operating on the whole current line, is common, so I'd like a command 
to either select whole current line, or to select from  
to the end of the whitespace on the next line.



You are quite right about the problem with ELSE (I'm used to Pascal 
where multiple line statements are bracketed by BEGIN/END, and since I 
indent the END, that "takes care of" that "problem").


I also indent the end of REPEATs, SWITCHES, CASES, etc, so that is not a 
problem for me (unless I use the auto-format in Rev).


One can select the whole current line via , 
but then you have to make room for the text.


I've begun to realize that the ease with which I use Delphi is due 
significantly to issues other than the editor (my bizarre indentation 
style, the BEGIN/END syntax, etc).  That said, I agree with an earlier 
statement by someone else that the editor's auto-indent behavior can be 
improved without making problems for long-time (not to say "older" ) 
users of the editor.


:)

Jon
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RE: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jim Bufalini]

Thanks Sara! That's good to know. Where are these kinds of features of the
Script Editor documented? -Jim

-Original Message-
From: Sarah Reichelt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 12:57 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; How to use Revolution
Subject: Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor


> 1. A global (not global variables but across the main stack and sub-
> stacks
> or, at least, one stack) find/search/replace function would be
> extremely
> useful, given that script can be in objects, cards, libraries, the
> stack,
> etc.

Find & Replace in the Edit menu allows you to specify where you want
to search (card, stack, sub-stacks, folder etc) and what containers
you want to search (fields, scripts, properties etc.)

HTH,
Sarah





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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[SimPLsol]

In a message dated 6/28/05 3:24:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


> 
> > We could argue all month about style but
> 

As I said "We could argue all month about style " and, knowing this list, we 
will.
Putting "end" in line with the statements is inconsistent with the standard 
xTalk way of handling handlers:

on mouseUp
end mouseUp

on something
end something

if something
then
 doWhat
else
 doOther
end if

And the more nested repeats you have in a handler, the easier it is to read 
as formatted above -or below:

If something
then
 if subCommand
 then
  if something2
  then
   subCommand2
  else
   otherCommand2
  end if
 else
  altCommand
 end if
end if

It is very hard to see where nested conditionals end if the "end" is in line 
with the nested statement:
If something
then
 if subCommand
 then
  if something2
  then
   subCommand2
  else
   otherCommand2
   end if
 else
  altCommand
  end if
 end if

It gets worse with "inline thens":
If something then
 if subCommand then
  if something2 then
   subCommand2
  else
   otherCommand2
   end if
 else
  altCommand
  end if
 end if
I'm not still sure where that last "end if" goes, should it be indented 
further (to the "end if" on the line above)? No wonder the editor gets confused 
trying to align such scripts.
Paul Looney
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Alex Tweedly]

Jon wrote:

OK, so, here is how I would like code to be formatted (not that I 
expect it to change, just FYI).

  
if [statement] then
  [statements]
  end if  -- note I always line my ENDs up with the internal statements

There is a reason for this: if I want to clip the final line out, I 
can just do a  and not have to back up to get rid 
of the "EN" that was accidentally included.  This is one of the 
annoyances with the current script editor, something that does not 
happen with the Delphi editor.


But you still have that problem with the statement before the "else" 
(and before the end of repeat, switch, case, end of handler, ...); 
Operating on the whole current line, is common, so I'd like a command to 
either select whole current line, or to select from  to the 
end of the whitespace on the next line.


--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net



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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Sarah Reichelt]

Oh, one more thing. How do you turn on line numbers in the script  
editor?


I don;t think you can, but you can go to a specific line. There is a  
btton in the bottom left corner of the script editor window, just  
above the Apply button. Clicking this cycles through 3 different  
states: auto-complete, find & replace or go to line number.


Cheers,
Sarah

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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Sarah Reichelt]

1. A global (not global variables but across the main stack and sub- 
stacks
or, at least, one stack) find/search/replace function would be  
extremely
useful, given that script can be in objects, cards, libraries, the  
stack,

etc.


Find & Replace in the Edit menu allows you to specify where you want  
to search (card, stack, sub-stacks, folder etc) and what containers  
you want to search (fields, scripts, properties etc.)


HTH,
Sarah


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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jon]

J. Landman Gay wrote:

I am very used to unaligned scripts until I hit the tab key; that's 
been the standard in all xtalks for almost 20 years. 



I think the point is that it is technically possible to have editors 
that provide the auto-format AND also allow one to only rarely have 
"unaligned scripts".  The fact that you are very used to this is more a 
comment on defects in the editor than it is in the beauty of Rev.


And, BTW, I NEVER would have guessed that the  key did ANYTHING 
other than enter  characters into the text.  This is a great 
example of a totally bizarre UI that you folks have become so used to 
that you can't see the strangeness of it.


I know I'm coming off as being a bit annoying, but it is frustrating 
after having used decent tools for years and years to discover the 
number of buggy areas in Rev that the rest of you seem to take for 
granted.  It is very off-putting to experienced programmers from other 
platforms.  If you want Rev to grow, you might want to take a less 
parochial attitude about these problem areas. Simply saying "well, we 
don't mind it, so you shouldn't mind" seems beside the point.


Jon
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jon]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


We could argue all month about style but, for the benefit of anyone
interested, here's how I do it:



OK, so, here is how I would like code to be formatted (not that I expect 
it to change, just FYI).


if [short statement] then [short statement]

if [long statement] then
  [long statement]
 
if [statement] then

  [statements]
  end if  -- note I always line my ENDs up with the internal statements

There is a reason for this: if I want to clip the final line out, I can 
just do a  and not have to back up to get rid of the 
"EN" that was accidentally included.  This is one of the annoyances with 
the current script editor, something that does not happen with the 
Delphi editor.


if [statement] then
  [statements]
else
  [statements]
  end if

Like it or not, it is consistent and it is easy to read.

:)

Jon

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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jon]

Jim Bufalini wrote:


As a newcomer, I may as well add my 2-cents here.

1. A global (not global variables but across the main stack and sub-stacks
or, at least, one stack) find/search/replace function would be extremely
useful, given that script can be in objects, cards, libraries, the stack,
etc.
 



Total agreement


As a newcomer especially, you suddenly discover a new and better way to do
something and want to revisit where you did it another way (I know this
violates the first rule of programming "If it works, don't touch it."), but
it's the way I learn. But, I can't remember everywhere it is.

2. Debugging is not intuitive. Is there a tutorial on debugging, including
how to use the features of the msg box? Variable watching (for example can
you watch undeclared local variables?). Also, is it just that I don't know
what I'm doing or does that msg box not display array contents? All I get is
OK.
 



Check out Development in the main menu and then Variable Watcher (or 
something like that).  Not all that intuitive, but it does work, and well.


:)

Jon
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[SimPLsol]

In a message dated 6/28/05 2:25:02 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

if a then
     if b then get c else get d
else
     doSomethingElse
end if

It generates:

if a then
     if b then get c else get d
     else
     doSomethingElse
     end if

I get the same response (OS X 10.4.1, Rev 2.5.1) however this formats 
properly:

if a 
then
  if b 
 then get c 
 else get d
else
     doSomethingElse
end if

We could argue all month about style but, for the benefit of anyone 
interested, here's how I do it:

if [short statement] then [short statement]

if [long statement]
then [long statement]

if [statement]
then
 [multiple statement #1]
 [multiple statement #2]
 [additional statements]
end if

if [statement]
then
 [one or more statements]
else
 [one or more statements]
end if

Like it or not, it is consistent, it is easy to read, and it formats 
correctly. Putting "then" under "if", instead of after it, really helps 
readability 
with nested repeats - like Dennis' example.
Paul Looney
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RE: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jim Bufalini]

Oh, one more thing. How do you turn on line numbers in the script editor?

Jim

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RE: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jim Bufalini]

As a newcomer, I may as well add my 2-cents here.

1. A global (not global variables but across the main stack and sub-stacks
or, at least, one stack) find/search/replace function would be extremely
useful, given that script can be in objects, cards, libraries, the stack,
etc.

As a newcomer especially, you suddenly discover a new and better way to do
something and want to revisit where you did it another way (I know this
violates the first rule of programming "If it works, don't touch it."), but
it's the way I learn. But, I can't remember everywhere it is.

2. Debugging is not intuitive. Is there a tutorial on debugging, including
how to use the features of the msg box? Variable watching (for example can
you watch undeclared local variables?). Also, is it just that I don't know
what I'm doing or does that msg box not display array contents? All I get is
OK.

Jim


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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Dennis Brown]

Jacqueline,

I have not seen the script editor mess up the formatting with this  
simple example, but it does mess up horribly in some situations.  I  
actually have to rewrite my scripts differently because it gets  
confused at times.


The main problem is when you have a situation like this:

if a then
if b then get c else get d
else
doSomethingElse
end if

It generates:

if a then
if b then get c else get d
else
doSomethingElse
end if

I am forced to rewrite my scripts to:

if a then
if b then
get c
else
get d
end if
else
doSomethingElse
end if

The Constellation editor gets it right.

Dennis

On Jun 28, 2005, at 4:53 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:


On 6/28/05 3:27 PM, Bob Warren wrote:



I think
that what is involved here is the old story that those who have  
used Rev for

a long time have unconsciously learned to avoid its potholes. Less
experienced users suffer more. Why shouldn't I be able to do an  
"if-then" as
I described above? I didn't have any trouble at all doing it in  
the very
editor I am using to write this e-mail! You say, "...but a quick  
touch of
the 'tab' key should autoformat the code you're working on". I  
agree that it
should, but the fact is that it often doesn't, or at least not  
correctly.




I suppose I'm one of those old hands who takes things for granted,  
but I don't know any xtalk editor that formats scripts differently  
than Rev, and actually, Rev does more auto-formatting than the others.


I am very used to unaligned scripts until I hit the tab key; that's  
been the standard in all xtalks for almost 20 years. Of course, I  
know that doesn't help newcomers who aren't used to it and I am not  
brushing off your comments, nor am I saying the current behavior is  
ideal; if Runtime can improve the editor to accomodate more users,  
of course they should. On the other hand, if RR were to change the  
current behavior very much I'd be lost. I have permanent muscle  
memory for the way it acts now.


I did just want to say, though, that I have never seen a problem  
once the tab key is hit. In the if/then example you gave, typing  
the tab key formatted the structure correctly (I just tried it.) My  
standard (ingrained) behavior is to do this:


Type: if myvar = 99 then
Type: two carriage returns
Type: end if
Type: up arrow (to get to the blank line
Type: tab

All formatted. Then I enter the middle section of the handler.

I have been looking at Constellation and I find it quite  
remarkable. I think it is a good alternative for those who want a  
change from the standard Rev editor. At least we have options. ;)


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[J. Landman Gay]

On 6/28/05 3:27 PM, Bob Warren wrote:


I think
that what is involved here is the old story that those who have used Rev for
a long time have unconsciously learned to avoid its potholes. Less
experienced users suffer more. Why shouldn't I be able to do an "if-then" as
I described above? I didn't have any trouble at all doing it in the very
editor I am using to write this e-mail! You say, "...but a quick touch of
the 'tab' key should autoformat the code you're working on". I agree that it
should, but the fact is that it often doesn't, or at least not correctly.


I suppose I'm one of those old hands who takes things for granted, but I 
don't know any xtalk editor that formats scripts differently than Rev, 
and actually, Rev does more auto-formatting than the others.


I am very used to unaligned scripts until I hit the tab key; that's been 
the standard in all xtalks for almost 20 years. Of course, I know that 
doesn't help newcomers who aren't used to it and I am not brushing off 
your comments, nor am I saying the current behavior is ideal; if Runtime 
can improve the editor to accomodate more users, of course they should. 
On the other hand, if RR were to change the current behavior very much 
I'd be lost. I have permanent muscle memory for the way it acts now.


I did just want to say, though, that I have never seen a problem once 
the tab key is hit. In the if/then example you gave, typing the tab key 
formatted the structure correctly (I just tried it.) My standard 
(ingrained) behavior is to do this:


Type: if myvar = 99 then
Type: two carriage returns
Type: end if
Type: up arrow (to get to the blank line
Type: tab

All formatted. Then I enter the middle section of the handler.

I have been looking at Constellation and I find it quite remarkable. I 
think it is a good alternative for those who want a change from the 
standard Rev editor. At least we have options. ;)


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Bob Warren]

Dear Chipp,

When I made my suggestion, I asked myself a question: "What's better, a
simple system that is reliable or a more complex system that often fails?"
Just try the example I cited in my first e-mail:

1) Type IFTHEN [enter]
2) Type ENTER again to make a blank line
3) Type END IF

e.g.

If myVar = 99 then

End if

...and then try to insert the middle of the sandwich to make it complete:

If myVar = 99 then
Do something
End if

There are many other examples like this. Of course, I have no objection in
relation to the principle of auto-formatting, just the practice! I think
that what is involved here is the old story that those who have used Rev for
a long time have unconsciously learned to avoid its potholes. Less
experienced users suffer more. Why shouldn't I be able to do an "if-then" as
I described above? I didn't have any trouble at all doing it in the very
editor I am using to write this e-mail! You say, "...but a quick touch of
the 'tab' key should autoformat the code you're working on". I agree that it
should, but the fact is that it often doesn't, or at least not correctly.

Another kind soul on the List recommended 'Constellation' to me last night
and I have already acquired it. It does not suffer many of the problems that
the Rev editor suffers. On the other hand, the question of the Rev script
editor is the same as the question of the whole IDE and the Transcript
language: I love it all. IF ONLY THEY WOULD DEBUG THE DAMN THING!!!

In a certain psychological theory related to motivation at work, money is
not described as "motivating". Instead, it is defined as a "hygiene factor".
What this means is that other aspects of the job are required to provide
motivation, but that money, if insufficient, can be DEmotivating. I see an
exact parallel here to the relationship between Rev's "new features" and its
bugs. New features (such as the recently-launched "Tiger") may be motivating
to some, but hardly to Windows users (a potential majority). One top of
that, Windows users do not have sufficient "hygiene" in their situation in
the form of debugging which in the opinion of all (except the powers that
be) is totally inadequate. For example, as I complained recently to the
"powers", how is it possible that something as fundamental and crucial as
the declaration of Global variables only half works and has always been the
same? It is beyond my comprehension.



- Original Message -
From: "Chipp Walters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Bob Warren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "How to use Revolution"

Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor


> Hi Bob,
>
> Thanks for your thoughts. As one who used to use the VBscript editor, I
> can offer these observations:
>
> 1) Ever since HyperCard first was released, the script editor
> 'auto-formatted' the scripts. Users are used to this. In fact, when I
> first started using VBscript, I saw where the code editor didn't do
> this. I know one can manually do it, but it's a lot easier for most of
> us to be able to check our repeat/if then/switch statement by just
> looking to see if they are properly indented. Removing auto-formatting
> is probably something neither RR nor most of the users want. Though it
> may be possible to 'turn it off.'
>
> 2) I agree, there are some 'issues' with the way things are 'live
> formatted', but a quick touch of the 'tab' key should autoformat the
> code you're working on. Most of us use the tabkey religiously to help
> formatting.
>
> 3) Jerry Daniels script editor 'Constellation' www.daniels-mara.com has
> many of the features you may be looking for. You may contact him
> directly to find out.
>
> best,
>
> Chipp
>
>
>


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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jon]

Paul:

Total disagreement.  The manual auto-indent features (that work while 
entering text, not the feature that re-formats an entire handler) are 
horribly buggy, when compared with the VB and Delphi editors.  The UI 
for the editor does not need to change: it can remain "quick and 
intuitive".  It just has to be FIXED so that it actually WORKS.


Jon


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Jon,
There are actually two issues here:
1. I agree that there are significant bugs in the debugger/script 
editor/variable watcher; these should be fixed.
2. I disagree with changes to the interface of the script editor. It works 
quickly and intuitively.

Paul Looney
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jon]

Chipp:

See comments embedded below

Chipp Walters wrote:


Hi Bob,

Thanks for your thoughts. As one who used to use the VBscript editor, 
I can offer these observations:


1) Ever since HyperCard first was released, the script editor 
'auto-formatted' the scripts. Users are used to this. In fact, when I 
first started using VBscript, I saw where the code editor didn't do 
this. I know one can manually do it, but it's a lot easier for most of 
us to be able to check our repeat/if then/switch statement by just 
looking to see if they are properly indented. Removing auto-formatting 
is probably something neither RR nor most of the users want. Though it 
may be possible to 'turn it off.'



I would LOVE it if the editor auto-formatted, but it does not.  It makes 
horrid mistakes, all of the time.  Try to copy a line, and you 
automatically get part of the next line.  You have to manually reformat 
any time you do an edit.  Unless you are using a different editor than I 
am, I can see NO WAY you would be satisfied with the current auto-indent 
behavior.


2) I agree, there are some 'issues' with the way things are 'live 
formatted', but a quick touch of the 'tab' key should autoformat the 
code you're working on. Most of us use the tabkey religiously to help 
formatting.



Ahah!  The Tab key.  Who would have thought of trying that?!?  
ARRRh.  Too bad you've not used the VB and Delphi editors: You can 
have the best of both worlds if the editor behaved better in manual 
mode, and still allowed you to auto-format at the push of a key.


3) Jerry Daniels script editor 'Constellation' www.daniels-mara.com 
has many of the features you may be looking for. You may contact him 
directly to find out.



While we're editor bashing, I sure wish there was a way to do searches 
using function keys.  Using the mouse all of the time is hugely slower 
than using other program development editors under Windows

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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[SimPLsol]

Jon,
 There are actually two issues here:
1. I agree that there are significant bugs in the debugger/script 
editor/variable watcher; these should be fixed.
2. I disagree with changes to the interface of the script editor. It works 
quickly and intuitively.
Paul Looney
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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Jon]

I agree with Bob.  The editor that comes with Delphi has worked 
correctly for years and years, and functions more or less as he 
described the VB editor to work.  There is no reason why we should have 
to work with an editor with the current set of bugs.


Jon


Bob Warren wrote:


Dear Paul,

Thanks for your feedback. The problem with describing a set of very simple
manual operations is that when you write the details down, it seems very
complicated. We have all had the experience of trying to learn how to
operate a new VCR for example using the manual! In fact, my suggestion has
absolutely nothing to do with bunches of obscure commands or dubious
shortcuts, and you seem to have missed the point of the description
completely. It is simply a description of how the editor could be
programmed internally, and for anyone who is interested it would be better
to see it at work in VB6.

But now I have the impression that my description was so poor that it was
open to misinterpretation, so if you don't mind I'll post this e-mail to the
List so that others can be a bit clearer on what I was trying to suggest.

Regards,
Bob Warren


- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor


Yes, why complicate the script editor with a bunch of obscure commands
and dubious "shortcuts"?

-Original Message-
From: Bob Warren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 02:38:26 -0300
Subject: Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

 Sorry Paul, perhaps I am a bit slow (old age), but could you explain
what you meant a little more fully?

Regards,
Bob
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor


 Well, this would certainly get people to read the manual before
attempting to use the editor!
Paul Looney






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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Chipp Walters]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your thoughts. As one who used to use the VBscript editor, I 
can offer these observations:


1) Ever since HyperCard first was released, the script editor 
'auto-formatted' the scripts. Users are used to this. In fact, when I 
first started using VBscript, I saw where the code editor didn't do 
this. I know one can manually do it, but it's a lot easier for most of 
us to be able to check our repeat/if then/switch statement by just 
looking to see if they are properly indented. Removing auto-formatting 
is probably something neither RR nor most of the users want. Though it 
may be possible to 'turn it off.'


2) I agree, there are some 'issues' with the way things are 'live 
formatted', but a quick touch of the 'tab' key should autoformat the 
code you're working on. Most of us use the tabkey religiously to help 
formatting.


3) Jerry Daniels script editor 'Constellation' www.daniels-mara.com has 
many of the features you may be looking for. You may contact him 
directly to find out.


best,

Chipp

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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Bob Warren]

Dear All,

My original e-mail suggesting how the Rev editor could be reviewed is
obviously open to misinterpretation, so I think a summary of a few points
would help.

1. Obviously, debugging the existing Rev editor is important.
It gets confused far too often.

2. It could well be simplified by not attempting to analyse the content of
what is being typed (with the exception of the beginning and end of a new
handler).

3. Though I am no great fan of Microsoft, their VB6 editor is good enough to
be imitated, and it works perfectly.

4. The main functioning of the VB6 editor is that lines created above or
below an existing line adopt the same indentation initially. Such
indentation can be changed immediately without any trouble.

The keys mentioned in my previous e-mail simply refer to the common keys
used for navigation in any text editor.
I think I made the mistake of trying to provide a summary spec for a
VB6-type editor in Rev instead of just saying, "Go and look at VB6 and do
something like that".






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Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

[Bob Warren]

Dear Paul,

Thanks for your feedback. The problem with describing a set of very simple
manual operations is that when you write the details down, it seems very
complicated. We have all had the experience of trying to learn how to
operate a new VCR for example using the manual! In fact, my suggestion has
absolutely nothing to do with bunches of obscure commands or dubious
shortcuts, and you seem to have missed the point of the description
completely. It is simply a description of how the editor could be
programmed internally, and for anyone who is interested it would be better
to see it at work in VB6.

But now I have the impression that my description was so poor that it was
open to misinterpretation, so if you don't mind I'll post this e-mail to the
List so that others can be a bit clearer on what I was trying to suggest.

Regards,
Bob Warren


- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor


Yes, why complicate the script editor with a bunch of obscure commands
and dubious "shortcuts"?

 -Original Message-
 From: Bob Warren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 02:38:26 -0300
 Subject: Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor

  Sorry Paul, perhaps I am a bit slow (old age), but could you explain
what you meant a little more fully?

 Regards,
 Bob
 - Original Message -
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 10:51 PM
 Subject: Re: Suggestion for correcting the IDE's script editor


  Well, this would certainly get people to read the manual before
attempting to use the editor!
 Paul Looney






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Re: Suggestion: the callingHandler

[Dar Scott]

On Sunday, June 1, 2003, at 05:01 AM, curry wrote:

So, I like the way the executionContexts works. It, or something 
almost just like it, would be the answer.
Can stack file names have commas?  If so...  If you tinker with this, 
you may want to watch out for that.  Maybe the handler name is item -2 
and the object is item 1 to -3.

I like the ability to pick off the nth caller, so I can make a utility 
function to get the calling object.  However, if Scott discourages 
this, then I'm going to try something else.  Even so, this can be handy 
in creating a mockup of a related function in making suggestions.

If this becomes a supported property, then maybe it can be defined in 
such a way that it can grow as mc/rev needs grow and yet still be safe 
to use.

Dar Scott

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Re: Suggestion: the callingHandler

[curry]

I wrote:

I would say the callingHandler could return just the handler name and
if we need the object, it would be good to have a separate function
like the callingObject, or callingControl, or what the heck, as
Richard said the callerID!
That was before I saw about the executionContexts. The way it's 
designed for debugging is the way, or very close to the way it would 
need to be for other uses. The executionContexts gives the object, 
handler, and line number. That's necessary to uniquely identify the 
call. It also gives the chain of calls leading to the current 
handler, and after seeing that, I think having the full info there if 
you need it is also good.

So, I like the way the executionContexts works. It, or something 
almost just like it, would be the answer.

Curry
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Re: Suggestion: the callingHandler

[curry]

 > How about a function that returns the name of the handler that called
 > the current handler? For example, this would be useful when a handler
 > needs to reset each time a different handler calls it, or to keep
 > track of different sets of data for each handler that calls it.
You can get this information with the executionContexts function.  I
hesitate to even mention it, however, because it was designed for
debugging purposes *only*: using it for conditional execution would
be, IMHO, heinous.  Use an optional parameter instead unless you want
your status as an xTalk wizard permanently revoked.
  Regards,
Scott
Wow, now that's more like it!!! :-) Unbelievably neat. Maybe there 
can be a non-debug version?

In the meantime, wooohooo! I did have a real hunch something like 
that might have been added, I just didn't realize it might be 
undocumented.

Seriously, this type of capability is a major key for more powerful 
and smarter handlers. Thanks for the feature and for mentioning it, 
and hope it is elevated to more than only debug status soon!

Thanks,

Curry
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