Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Werner Punz]

Pilgrim, Peter wrote:

I think the jewel in the crown with the EJB 3 specification
is actually the new persistent model sub part of it. 
Following Linda De Michels and Scott Crawford presentations

at JavaONE this year, you should be able to persist POJOs
with any O/RM implementation that supplies a `javax.ejb.EntityManager' 
interface.



Yes it is a crown jewel, they listened to the input of Hibernate.
The new mapping scheme, is taken directly from Hibernate.


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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Werner Punz]

Stéphane Zuckerman wrote:

netsql a écrit :


So are you saying Hibreante for big complex or iBatis for big complex?



I don't know about iBatis, but Hibernate is definitely for medium to big 
projects. The real "complexity" of Hibernate is in its configuration 
(there is more or less one Java class for each table in your DBRMS, with 
one XML configuration file, and a "global" config file to describe 
general behaviour). After that, using Hibernate is quite easy really.



Normally as many said, you do not write the mappings with your hand, 
there are myriads of plugins, some mentioned the MyEclipse plugin.
There used to be the Hybernate synchronizer, (which sort of was in a 
hiatus the last time I checked it out)
There also is Exadel which seems slowly to get its act together 
regarding mapping generators (but the generator is still buggy)

and the Hibernate people themselves have an excellent toolset for Eclipse.


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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[netsql]

Hernandez, Mariano wrote:

we use EJBs, although I and a colleague
have tried to persuade our architech to use ANYTHING other than EJBs. 



Consider having a email "Dear Achitect, thanks for meeting w/ us, we 
brought you some good reasons not to use EJB; we understand you do want 
to use them". -- just in case it heads south.




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RE: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Hernandez, Mariano]

I've work for the USPS for 3 years and now work for the DOD. At the PO we
moved from pojos to iBatis, although there was another team trying to get
Hibernate going. Now with the DOD, we use EJBs, although I and a colleague
have tried to persuade our architech to use ANYTHING other than EJBs. I
don't think this fully answers your question but it's a start. 

Mariano Hernandez

-Original Message-
From: Access Denied [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 8:50 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List; Ed Griebel
Subject: Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

I bought James Elliott's "Hibernate" (O'Reilly Developer Notebook
Series 2004), but a search for "iBATIS" on amazon returns books like
"Pocket Guide to the Birds of Britain and North-West Europe" and "An
Introduction To The Mystical Use of Classical Persian Poems."  Is
there any timely definitive literature available for iBATIS?  In this
realm, at least, it looks like Hibernate rules.

I have also recently noticed that any job opportunities specifying a
java persistence technology requires Hibernate; I have yet to run
across any requirements for iBATIS.  Does Hibernate dominate in
business and government, too?

It has also been my general experience that clients demand impossible
deadlines, mainly, I think, because most do not have a clue when it
comes to SDLC and due diligence.  I've worked at many companies and
agencies over the years and changing jobs has not changed the lack of
appreciation for the SDLC outside of IT.  The comment that
"contractors are assumed to already know the technology" is true; the
facts of tech life is anathema to this assumption.  For a personal
example, I was using java 1.2 and struts 1.0 on my last java job, but
now with java 5.0, struts 1.2 and spring, the landscape has changed
dramatically.  We have no choice but to learn new stuff by the seat of
our pants.

~buddy

On 7/22/05, Ed Griebel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> All too often that's how it works. If you say no, there are people
> that will say yes. Even if they end up taking as much time as you said
> it would, they've got the project, not you. Sometimes the short time
> is understandable, possibly due to uncontrollable situations, but most
> of the time it's due to poor (or too much!) planning. Many times the
> situation described below is a start to negotiations on budget, scope,
> resources, etc., but not always :-)
> 
> -ed
> 
> On 7/22/05, netsql <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > It has not been unusual to estimate three months
> > > for something, and that's fairly realistic to do it right, and the
> > > business says "nope, 1.5 months is when we need it".
> >
> >
> > I need you to paint the house, but I only have budget to wash my hair?
> >
> > That is no respect and a bit like slavery!
> >
> >
> > .V
> >
> >
> 
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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Frank W. Zammetti]

Clustering in general has two purposes... load distribution and failover
capabilities.  Both of these factor into scalability, load distribution
moreso obviously.

In our environment, we have a 3-node Oracle cluster in production.  We
have seen efficiency gains across the board in terms of query speeds
because three users can, theoretically at least, execute a query
simultaneously more efficiently when they in essence have a server to
themselves.  Of course this is idealized and rarely happens in reality,
but I'm talking theory here :)

The other side of that of course is what happens when a write a occurs...
the data has to be synchronized, which takes resources and degrades some
of the load distribution benefits.  So, it is largely a question of how
the database is used... if there are more reads than writes, a cluster
should nearly always be more efficient (assuming the load distribution
mechanism is actually doing it's job properly) than a single box.  The
larger the delta between reads and writes in favor of reads, the larger
will be the benefit.

All of this figures in to how well the app, in terms of the database, will
scale.  Let's say we're talking a relatively steady 70-30 distribution of
reads to writes, which isn't unusual in most apps I've seen.  Again,
idealizing the situation, you can handle more traffic in a 3-node cluster
than a single server, assuming reasonably similar hardware of course
(i.e., compare an 8-way box to three single CPU boxes and the single
server likely will fair better) just because the load can be distributed. 
That bodes well for scalability.

-- 
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com

On Tue, July 26, 2005 10:13 am, Derek Broughton said:
> Leon Rosenberg wrote:
>
>>> Von: Michael Jouravlev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>> On 7/25/05, Leon Rosenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> > I think the problem is rather that none of the dbs scales.
>>> > To scale you need something in front of db in the business layer
>>> > (middleware), so it's no difference whether you use ibatis or sql.
>>> > Could be nasty with hibernate though, at least you need to turn off
>>> > the lazy loading...
>
> Surely that's entirely dependent on the type of transactions you're doing.
> I would expect lazy loading to help with scalability in some cases.
>>>
>>> I thought that database clusters exist before J2EE clusters
>>> ;) And I believe that former are more robust than latter too.
>>
>> Database clusters exists, true. But who tells you that they scale???
>>
>> Actually I has often seen projects, where the architect told, if we will
>> have scalability problems, we will cluster the db.
>> Then, the day X came, they clustered the db and then... surprise,
>> surprise
>> it became even slower...
>>
>> I think the sentence "clustering will help you scaling" is an urban myth
>> :-)
>
> It's hard to see where clustering is ever going to be more efficient than
> a
> single multi-cpu machine of the same capacity.  The cluster only helps
> when
> you get into realms beyond the reach of a single machine, and generally
> where that machine is cpu-bound.  Clusters have their place, but I'm still
> not sure it's in DBs.
> --
> derek
>
>
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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Derek Broughton]

Leon Rosenberg wrote:

>> Von: Michael Jouravlev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
>> On 7/25/05, Leon Rosenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > I think the problem is rather that none of the dbs scales.
>> > To scale you need something in front of db in the business layer
>> > (middleware), so it's no difference whether you use ibatis or sql.
>> > Could be nasty with hibernate though, at least you need to turn off
>> > the lazy loading...

Surely that's entirely dependent on the type of transactions you're doing. 
I would expect lazy loading to help with scalability in some cases.
>> 
>> I thought that database clusters exist before J2EE clusters
>> ;) And I believe that former are more robust than latter too.
> 
> Database clusters exists, true. But who tells you that they scale???
> 
> Actually I has often seen projects, where the architect told, if we will
> have scalability problems, we will cluster the db.
> Then, the day X came, they clustered the db and then... surprise, surprise
> it became even slower...
> 
> I think the sentence "clustering will help you scaling" is an urban myth
> :-)

It's hard to see where clustering is ever going to be more efficient than a
single multi-cpu machine of the same capacity.  The cluster only helps when
you get into realms beyond the reach of a single machine, and generally
where that machine is cpu-bound.  Clusters have their place, but I'm still
not sure it's in DBs.
-- 
derek


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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Vinny]

Yo Rick!
I think that statement was in regard to self-implemented (inflicted?) 
 POJO DAOs,
not IBATIS in particular. 


> The fact that you state:
> 
> "You'll spend all your time writing grunt-work plumbing and error
> handling and maintenance is a nightmare."
> 
> only shows you haven't even tried iBATIS since, for if you had, you
> wouldn't be making such erroneous statements.
> 
> --
> Rick
> 
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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[netsql]

Leon Rosenberg wrote:
 




I think the sentence "clustering will help you scaling" is an urban myth :-)

Leon

+1

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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Leon Rosenberg]

 

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: Michael Jouravlev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Gesendet: Montag, 25. Juli 2005 21:19
> An: Struts Users Mailing List
> Betreff: Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
> 
> On 7/25/05, Leon Rosenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I think the problem is rather that none of the dbs scales.
> > To scale you need something in front of db in the business layer 
> > (middleware), so it's no difference whether you use ibatis or sql. 
> > Could be nasty with hibernate though, at least you need to turn off 
> > the lazy loading...
> > 
> > leon
> 
> I thought that database clusters exist before J2EE clusters 
> ;) And I believe that former are more robust than latter too.
> 
> Michael.


Database clusters exists, true. But who tells you that they scale???

Actually I has often seen projects, where the architect told, if we will
have scalability problems, we will cluster the db.
Then, the day X came, they clustered the db and then... surprise, surprise
it became even slower...

I think the sentence "clustering will help you scaling" is an urban myth :-)

Leon



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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Leon Rosenberg]

 

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: Michael Jouravlev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Gesendet: Montag, 25. Juli 2005 21:19
> An: Struts Users Mailing List
> Betreff: Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
> 
> On 7/25/05, Leon Rosenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I think the problem is rather that none of the dbs scales.
> > To scale you need something in front of db in the business layer 
> > (middleware), so it's no difference whether you use ibatis or sql. 
> > Could be nasty with hibernate though, at least you need to turn off 
> > the lazy loading...
> > 
> > leon
> 
> I thought that database clusters exist before J2EE clusters 
> ;) And I believe that former are more robust than latter too.
> 
> Michael.


Database clusters exists, true. But who tells you that they scale???

Actually I has often seen projects, where the architect told, if we will
have scalability problems, we will cluster the db.
Then, the day X came, they clustered the db and then... surprise, surprise
it became even slower...

I think the sentence "clustering will help you scaling" is an urban myth :-)

Leon



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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Michael Jouravlev]

On 7/25/05, Leon Rosenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think the problem is rather that none of the dbs scales.
> To scale you need something in front of db in the business layer
> (middleware),
> so it's no difference whether you use ibatis or sql. Could be nasty with
> hibernate though,
> at least you need to turn off the lazy loading...
> 
> leon

I thought that database clusters exist before J2EE clusters ;) And I
believe that former are more robust than latter too.

Michael.

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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Leon Rosenberg]

I think the problem is rather that none of the dbs scales. 
To scale you need something in front of db in the business layer
(middleware),
so it's no difference whether you use ibatis or sql. Could be nasty with
hibernate though, 
at least you need to turn off the lazy loading...

leon
> 
> 
> On 7/25/05, Adam Hardy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > Is there any truth to the urban myth that iBatis doesn't scale?



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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Leon Rosenberg]

I think the problem is rather that none of the dbs scales. 
To scale you need something in front of db in the business layer
(middleware),
so it's no difference whether you use ibatis or sql. Could be nasty with
hibernate though, 
at least you need to turn off the lazy loading...

leon
> 
> 
> On 7/25/05, Adam Hardy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > Is there any truth to the urban myth that iBatis doesn't scale?



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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[netsql]

I used iBatis 2 w/ 7000 concurent users and subsecond response time 
(each users requested data from a page that had many tiles, 1up.com)


It's much faster than others becuase of a simple row based cache.

I am one of few SQL instructors certified to teach P&T, I would argue 
it's by far the most scaleable. However... that does not abosolve you 
from stress testing your DAO.



Larry Meadors wrote:
Not that I have seen. 


I have used it on a project with 800GB of data + 40-50 concurrent users.

Vic will probably chime in on this thread as well...

Larry




Is there any truth to the urban myth that iBatis doesn't scale?



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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Dave Newton]

Larry Meadors wrote:


I have used it on a project with 800GB of data + 40-50 concurrent users.
 

I wasn't directly involved in the project, but coworkers used it for 
less data (100G maybe?) but substantially more concurrent users (100-200 
or so).


Dave



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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Larry Meadors]

Not that I have seen. 

I have used it on a project with 800GB of data + 40-50 concurrent users.

Vic will probably chime in on this thread as well...

Larry


On 7/25/05, Adam Hardy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Ted Husted on 22/07/05 18:12, wrote:
> >
> > The truth is that iBATIS is very easy to use, and there isn't much to
> > learn that you don't already know. Basically, iBATIS lets you put a
> > wrapper around SQL statements and use disconnected POJO objects for
> > input and output. The user guide covers all the essentials, and the
> > mailing list and wiki will help out with the rest.
> 
> Is there any truth to the urban myth that iBatis doesn't scale?
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Adam Hardy]

Ted Husted on 22/07/05 18:12, wrote:


The truth is that  iBATIS is very easy to use, and there isn't much to
learn that you don't already know. Basically, iBATIS lets you put a
wrapper around SQL statements and use disconnected POJO objects for
input and output. The user guide covers all the essentials, and the
mailing list and wiki will help out with the rest.


Is there any truth to the urban myth that iBatis doesn't scale?



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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Michael Jouravlev]

On 7/22/05, Larry Meadors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You just lack appreciation for the finer things in life Buddy.
> 
> Classical Persian poetry is really quite good. ;-)
> 
> On a serious note: Basing tech decisions on who has more books out is
> similar to making them on the company with the higher stock price. Sun:
> $3.85; MS: $26.44...gosh, what does that tell you? Books are not always a
> requirement...do you have a book on bicycling or going to the bathroom?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0898156270/ref=pd_sxp_f/103-1864939-1630247?v=glance&s=books

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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[James Mitchell]

ROFL!!!  I think that is the funniest thing I've read all year!!  I'm 
definitely going to share that one!



--
James Mitchell
Software Engineer / Open Source Evangelist
Consulting / Mentoring / Freelance
EdgeTech, Inc.
http://www.edgetechservices.net/
678.910.8017
AIM:   jmitchtx
MSN:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype: jmitchtx

- Original Message - 
From: "Rick Reumann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Struts Users Mailing List" 
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO



Larry Meadors wrote the following on 7/22/2005 10:43 AM:
Books are not always a requirement...do you have a book on bicycling or 
going to the bathroom? I guess some people do, but 99% of us do not 
because we can do it "well enough" without them. If I want to be the next 
Lance Armstrong or Rick Reumann however, I may need to pick one up. ;-)


Larry, I do recommend you pick up my book on going to the bathroom. It has 
a lot useful information. I'm weak on technologies but my bathroom skills 
reign supreme. My first edition is here...


http://tinyurl.com/94pg6

(u it is Friday right?:)

--
Rick

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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Ted Husted]

On 7/22/05, Access Denied <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is there any timely definitive literature available for iBATIS?  

The definitive literature about iBATIS is published by the iBATIS team. 

* http://ibatis.apache.org/downloads.html

Pro Spring also has an excellent chapter on iBATIS, and covers several
other top-notch tools.

The truth is that  iBATIS is very easy to use, and there isn't much to
learn that you don't already know. Basically, iBATIS lets you put a
wrapper around SQL statements and use disconnected POJO objects for
input and output. The user guide covers all the essentials, and the
mailing list and wiki will help out with the rest.

-Ted.

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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Larry Meadors]

This is getting further and further off-topic, but we have started talking 
about iBATIS 3.x as a more generic Data Mapper that would allow more than 
JDBC mapping and SQL query management. 

While that is still a way out, that would mean that anything where you have 
this pattern:
(Business Layer) <--> (Data Layer) <--> (Data)

You would be able to use iBATIS in the data layer for JDBC, LDAP, Web 
service, MP3s on a file system, or some wacked-out IBM interface (why do 
they insist on doing that to us, anyway?). Heck, even Hibernate's HQL could 
be used in this way, to eliminate the StringBuffer work that you have to do 
with it now to build dynamic queries.

All of these should be usable with iBATIS3...and theoretically in Java or 
.net, too.

Larry

On 7/22/05, Wendy Smoak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> No one except those of us who have no choice. :) I use a multi-valued
> database, IBM's UniData, which does not [easily] speak JDBC. (The DBMS 
> can,
> but there is a third-party app sitting on top of it that severely limits 
> my
> options.) My only way in is through IBM's proprietary Java API, UniObjects
> for Java.
>

Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Dave Newton]

Wendy Smoak wrote:


At one time I thought JDO was going to help, and "Bean Managed Persistence"
has always sounded promising.  Unfortunately, all of the examples are SQL
based and I don't immediately see how to plug in this strange API that does
not have Connection or DataSource.

Has anyone else had to deal with a non-JDBC data source?  Is there anything
I can do to make this as painless as possible?
 


Percocet?

Whil working on a webapp<=>legacy embedded system project I was, in 
effect, dealing with a non-JDBC/non-SQL database, and it was painful no 
matter what I tried throwing at it. I ended up doing the same thing you 
did, which was promptly thrown away when the embedded system was 
replaced with a more reasonable one :/


Dave



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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Wendy Smoak]

Access Denied wrote:
> it seems no one is writing their own DAOs anymore.

No one except those of us who have no choice. :) I use a multi-valued
database, IBM's UniData, which does not [easily] speak JDBC.  (The DBMS can,
but there is a third-party app sitting on top of it that severely limits my
options.)  My only way in is through IBM's proprietary Java API, UniObjects
for Java.

Years ago I asked for help here, and was directed to the J2EE Data Access
Objects pattern.  Which I implemented from the ground up, all the POJOs, all
the database-specific DAOs with interfaces in front of everything.

So when you guys argue about whether iBatis or Hibernate is better, believe
me, I'd be happy to be able to use EITHER one of them!

At one time I thought JDO was going to help, and "Bean Managed Persistence"
has always sounded promising.  Unfortunately, all of the examples are SQL
based and I don't immediately see how to plug in this strange API that does
not have Connection or DataSource.

Has anyone else had to deal with a non-JDBC data source?  Is there anything
I can do to make this as painless as possible?

-- 
Wendy Smoak


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RE: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Derek Broughton]

Daniel Perry wrote:

>> Again, that's a situation where you are involving consultants.
>> Consultants
>> are expected to know the technology and not learn it on their customers'
>> time.  When a company has its own IT staff, there are rarely
>> opportunities for somebody else to underbid them.
> 
> Really? the majority of the work i do is for companies/organisations that
> have their own IT department.
> 
> An example: the NHS
> They probably have more IT staff than most large software dev companies. 
> If they were a bit more organised/centralised they could save themselves a
> packet, and stop using external companies (which rip them off then get the
> work done in india on the cheap - note we do neither of these!).
> 
Sorry, that should have been "When a company _uses_ its own IT staff".  I've
rarely worked anywhere where the IT dept competes against itself (it does
happen, and I think it's generally a bad thing).  In fact, I too am working
for clients with their own IT staff.  If the IT department has to compete
against outside contractors, it _should_ be an uphill battle.  I'm bidding
on those contracts where I know I have expertise they don't have in-house. 
I should be able to underbid them, and not waste time experimenting with
technologies. Often part of that contract will involve teaching the
in-house staff how to maintain the end-product - and next time I may not
have the edge in bidding that I had the first time.
-- 
derek


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RE: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Lindholm, Greg]

Chill man! (or are you looking for a fight?)

I was talking about POJO DAOs, not iBATIS.

My point is: 
Use a tool that takes care of all the grunt work.


 

-Original Message-
From: Rick Reumann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 5:11 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

Lindholm, Greg wrote the following on 7/21/2005 1:01 PM:
> If your building anything bigger then a toy project then forget POJO
> DAOs. You'll spend all your time writing grunt-work plumbing and error
> handling and maintenance is a nightmare. 
> 
> I give a big thumbs-up to Hibernate!

I'd argue just the opposite.

If you can design your data model from scratch on a brand new project 
than yea maybe Hibernate will fit the bill, otherwise iBATIS will save 
you much more time and will provide a lot less headaches. How many 
developers have the privilege of not working with legacy databases?

The fact that you state:

"You'll spend all your time writing grunt-work plumbing and error 
handling and maintenance is a nightmare."

only shows you haven't even tried iBATIS since, for if you had, you 
wouldn't be making such erroneous statements.

-- 
Rick

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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Rick Reumann]

Access Denied wrote the following on 7/22/2005 9:56 AM:

I just shelled out $300 for JetBrains' IDEA because of recommendations
from Larry and Rick from this list.  Are there plugins for IDEA
similar to those available for Eclipse?


Yup: http://plugins.intellij.net/plugins/


--
Rick

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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Rick Reumann]

Larry Meadors wrote the following on 7/22/2005 10:43 AM:
Books are not always a 
requirement...do you have a book on bicycling or going to the bathroom? 

I guess some people do, but 99% of us do not because we can do it "well 
enough" without them. 

If I want to be the next Lance Armstrong or Rick Reumann however, I may need 
to pick one up. ;-)


Larry, I do recommend you pick up my book on going to the bathroom. It 
has a lot useful information. I'm weak on technologies but my bathroom 
skills reign supreme. My first edition is here...


http://tinyurl.com/94pg6

(u it is Friday right?:)

--
Rick

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RE: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Pilgrim, Peter]

I think the jewel in the crown with the EJB 3 specification
is actually the new persistent model sub part of it. 
Following Linda De Michels and Scott Crawford presentations
at JavaONE this year, you should be able to persist POJOs
with any O/RM implementation that supplies a `javax.ejb.EntityManager' 
interface.

If you would rather execute your own mapped SQL statements,
then iBatis or similar is the choice.

--
Peter Pilgrim :: J2EE Software Development
Operations/IT - Credit Suisse First Boston, 
Floor 15, 5 Canada Square, London E14 4QJ, United Kingdom
Tel: +44-(0)207-883-4497

==
Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications 
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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Larry Meadors]

You just lack appreciation for the finer things in life Buddy.

Classical Persian poetry is really quite good. ;-)

On a serious note: Basing tech decisions on who has more books out is 
similar to making them on the company with the higher stock price. Sun: 
$3.85; MS: $26.44...gosh, what does that tell you? Books are not always a 
requirement...do you have a book on bicycling or going to the bathroom? 

I guess some people do, but 99% of us do not because we can do it "well 
enough" without them. 

If I want to be the next Lance Armstrong or Rick Reumann however, I may need 
to pick one up. ;-)

Larry


On 7/22/05, Access Denied <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> I bought James Elliott's "Hibernate" (O'Reilly Developer Notebook
> Series 2004), but a search for "iBATIS" on amazon returns books like
> "Pocket Guide to the Birds of Britain and North-West Europe" and "An
> Introduction To The Mystical Use of Classical Persian Poems." Is
> there any timely definitive literature available for iBATIS? In this
> realm, at least, it looks like Hibernate rules.
>

Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[DGraham]

Not sure.  However, the source code is available.  Sounds like you're just 
itching to to decouple it from Eclipse?

 I actually use IDEA (4 years now).  The only reason I have Eclipse 
installed is for this plugin 

-Dennis




Access Denied <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
07/22/2005 09:56 AM
Please respond to
"Struts Users Mailing List" 


To
Struts Users Mailing List 
cc

Subject
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO






I just shelled out $300 for JetBrains' IDEA because of recommendations
from Larry and Rick from this list.  Are there plugins for IDEA
similar to those available for Eclipse?

~buddy

On 7/22/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hibernate Synchronizer is an Eclipse plugin that generates the config 
and
> mapping files as well as the VO/DAO classes.  So, unless you want to
> hand-crank it OR you are an anti-Eclipse zealot, I suggest that you 
visit
> http://hibernatesynch.sourceforge.net/.  Takes about an hour to have
> Hibernate running in your code, regardless of number of tables that you
> need to use.  The amout of time saved is certainly worth the $25 
donation
> I made.
> 
> I think their new tag line is "Hibernate...it's not just for medium/big
> projects anymore!"   ;)
> 
> -Dennis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stéphane Zuckerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 07/22/2005 09:47 AM
> Please respond to
> "Struts Users Mailing List" 
> 
> 
> To
> Struts Users Mailing List 
> cc
> 
> Subject
> Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> netsql a écrit :
> 
> > So are you saying Hibreante for big complex or iBatis for big complex?
> 
> I don't know about iBatis, but Hibernate is definitely for medium to big
> projects. The real "complexity" of Hibernate is in its configuration
> (there is more or less one Java class for each table in your DBRMS, with
> one XML configuration file, and a "global" config file to describe
> general behaviour). After that, using Hibernate is quite easy really.
> 
> 
> --
> Stéphane Zuckerman
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
>

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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Larry Meadors]

Are you asking me or Stéphane?

I suspect most people who know me, know my answer: If I have a database and 
a choice, I am using iBATIS. :-)

Larry


On 7/22/05, netsql <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Stéphane Zuckerman wrote:
> > Larry Meadors a écrit :
> >
> > I agree with previous comments saying that Hibernate is useful
> > if your project is quite large. Otherwise, the time taken to set it up
> > would be better used to do something else. It does add some complexity
> > when thinking through a new project, and in case of an existing one,
> > there are too many changes that would need to be done to it to be really
> > interesting in my opinion (or else, said project wasn't really big 
> anyway).
> 
> 
> So are you saying Hibreante for big complex or iBatis for big complex?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I think most people know which one I say)
> 
> .V
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>

RE: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[McDonnell, Colm (MLIM)]

Here's the address for the IntelliJ plugins homepage:

http://www.intellij.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IntelliJPluginsHome


-Original Message-
From: Access Denied [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 22 July 2005 14:57
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO


I just shelled out $300 for JetBrains' IDEA because of recommendations
from Larry and Rick from this list.  Are there plugins for IDEA
similar to those available for Eclipse?

~buddy

On 7/22/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hibernate Synchronizer is an Eclipse plugin that generates the config and
> mapping files as well as the VO/DAO classes.  So, unless you want to
> hand-crank it OR you are an anti-Eclipse zealot, I suggest that you visit
> http://hibernatesynch.sourceforge.net/.  Takes about an hour to have
> Hibernate running in your code, regardless of number of tables that you
> need to use.  The amout of time saved is certainly worth the $25 donation
> I made.
> 
> I think their new tag line is "Hibernate...it's not just for medium/big
> projects anymore!"   ;)
> 
> -Dennis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stéphane Zuckerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 07/22/2005 09:47 AM
> Please respond to
> "Struts Users Mailing List" 
> 
> 
> To
> Struts Users Mailing List 
> cc
> 
> Subject
> Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> netsql a écrit :
> 
> > So are you saying Hibreante for big complex or iBatis for big complex?
> 
> I don't know about iBatis, but Hibernate is definitely for medium to big
> projects. The real "complexity" of Hibernate is in its configuration
> (there is more or less one Java class for each table in your DBRMS, with
> one XML configuration file, and a "global" config file to describe
> general behaviour). After that, using Hibernate is quite easy really.
> 
> 
> --
> Stéphane Zuckerman
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
>

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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Access Denied]

I just shelled out $300 for JetBrains' IDEA because of recommendations
from Larry and Rick from this list.  Are there plugins for IDEA
similar to those available for Eclipse?

~buddy

On 7/22/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hibernate Synchronizer is an Eclipse plugin that generates the config and
> mapping files as well as the VO/DAO classes.  So, unless you want to
> hand-crank it OR you are an anti-Eclipse zealot, I suggest that you visit
> http://hibernatesynch.sourceforge.net/.  Takes about an hour to have
> Hibernate running in your code, regardless of number of tables that you
> need to use.  The amout of time saved is certainly worth the $25 donation
> I made.
> 
> I think their new tag line is "Hibernate...it's not just for medium/big
> projects anymore!"   ;)
> 
> -Dennis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stéphane Zuckerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 07/22/2005 09:47 AM
> Please respond to
> "Struts Users Mailing List" 
> 
> 
> To
> Struts Users Mailing List 
> cc
> 
> Subject
> Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> netsql a écrit :
> 
> > So are you saying Hibreante for big complex or iBatis for big complex?
> 
> I don't know about iBatis, but Hibernate is definitely for medium to big
> projects. The real "complexity" of Hibernate is in its configuration
> (there is more or less one Java class for each table in your DBRMS, with
> one XML configuration file, and a "global" config file to describe
> general behaviour). After that, using Hibernate is quite easy really.
> 
> 
> --
> Stéphane Zuckerman
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
>

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RE: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Daniel Perry]

> Again, that's a situation where you are involving consultants.
> Consultants
> are expected to know the technology and not learn it on their customers'
> time.  When a company has its own IT staff, there are rarely opportunities
> for somebody else to underbid them.

Really? the majority of the work i do is for companies/organisations that
have their own IT department.

An example: the NHS
They probably have more IT staff than most large software dev companies.  If
they were a bit more organised/centralised they could save themselves a
packet, and stop using external companies (which rip them off then get the
work done in india on the cheap - note we do neither of these!).

Daniel.


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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Derek Broughton]

Ed Griebel wrote:

> All too often that's how it works. If you say no, there are people
> that will say yes. Even if they end up taking as much time as you said
> it would, they've got the project, not you. 

Again, that's a situation where you are involving consultants.  Consultants
are expected to know the technology and not learn it on their customers'
time.  When a company has its own IT staff, there are rarely opportunities
for somebody else to underbid them.
-- 
derek


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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Derek Broughton]

netsql wrote:

> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> It has not been unusual to estimate three months
>> for something, and that's fairly realistic to do it right, and the
>> business says "nope, 1.5 months is when we need it".
> 
> 
> I need you to paint the house, but I only have budget to wash my hair?
> 
> That is no respect and a bit like slavery!

Exactly my point.  When I have worked for corporations, deadlines were set
cooperatively.  If I said it could be down in a month, and the user said
"we need it in two weeks", I told them what they _could_ get in two weeks. 
If they said "we need it _all_ in two weeks" they had to either forget it
or throw more resources at it.  The world is _not_ a Dilbert cartoon -
we're highly prized professionals, and we don't have to accept slavery.
-- 
derek


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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Stéphane Zuckerman]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
Hibernate Synchronizer is an Eclipse plugin that generates the config and 
mapping files as well as the VO/DAO classes.  So, unless you want to 
hand-crank it OR you are an anti-Eclipse zealot, I suggest that you visit 
http://hibernatesynch.sourceforge.net/.  Takes about an hour to have 
Hibernate running in your code, regardless of number of tables that you 
need to use.  The amout of time saved is certainly worth the $25 donation 
I made.


I think their new tag line is "Hibernate...it's not just for medium/big 
projects anymore!"   ;)




Well, I use the MyEclipse plugin, which does exactly the same thing. :-)
But the time spent to learn how to configure correctly Hibernate, and 
know really well how yo use it can be quite long indeed.



--
Stéphane Zuckerman

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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Access Denied]

I bought James Elliott's "Hibernate" (O'Reilly Developer Notebook
Series 2004), but a search for "iBATIS" on amazon returns books like
"Pocket Guide to the Birds of Britain and North-West Europe" and "An
Introduction To The Mystical Use of Classical Persian Poems."  Is
there any timely definitive literature available for iBATIS?  In this
realm, at least, it looks like Hibernate rules.

I have also recently noticed that any job opportunities specifying a
java persistence technology requires Hibernate; I have yet to run
across any requirements for iBATIS.  Does Hibernate dominate in
business and government, too?

It has also been my general experience that clients demand impossible
deadlines, mainly, I think, because most do not have a clue when it
comes to SDLC and due diligence.  I've worked at many companies and
agencies over the years and changing jobs has not changed the lack of
appreciation for the SDLC outside of IT.  The comment that
"contractors are assumed to already know the technology" is true; the
facts of tech life is anathema to this assumption.  For a personal
example, I was using java 1.2 and struts 1.0 on my last java job, but
now with java 5.0, struts 1.2 and spring, the landscape has changed
dramatically.  We have no choice but to learn new stuff by the seat of
our pants.

~buddy

On 7/22/05, Ed Griebel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> All too often that's how it works. If you say no, there are people
> that will say yes. Even if they end up taking as much time as you said
> it would, they've got the project, not you. Sometimes the short time
> is understandable, possibly due to uncontrollable situations, but most
> of the time it's due to poor (or too much!) planning. Many times the
> situation described below is a start to negotiations on budget, scope,
> resources, etc., but not always :-)
> 
> -ed
> 
> On 7/22/05, netsql <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > It has not been unusual to estimate three months
> > > for something, and that's fairly realistic to do it right, and the
> > > business says "nope, 1.5 months is when we need it".
> >
> >
> > I need you to paint the house, but I only have budget to wash my hair?
> >
> > That is no respect and a bit like slavery!
> >
> >
> > .V
> >
> >
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> 
>

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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[DGraham]

Hibernate Synchronizer is an Eclipse plugin that generates the config and 
mapping files as well as the VO/DAO classes.  So, unless you want to 
hand-crank it OR you are an anti-Eclipse zealot, I suggest that you visit 
http://hibernatesynch.sourceforge.net/.  Takes about an hour to have 
Hibernate running in your code, regardless of number of tables that you 
need to use.  The amout of time saved is certainly worth the $25 donation 
I made.

I think their new tag line is "Hibernate...it's not just for medium/big 
projects anymore!"   ;)

-Dennis




Stéphane Zuckerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
07/22/2005 09:47 AM
Please respond to
"Struts Users Mailing List" 


To
Struts Users Mailing List 
cc

Subject
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO






netsql a écrit :

> So are you saying Hibreante for big complex or iBatis for big complex?

I don't know about iBatis, but Hibernate is definitely for medium to big 
projects. The real "complexity" of Hibernate is in its configuration 
(there is more or less one Java class for each table in your DBRMS, with 
one XML configuration file, and a "global" config file to describe 
general behaviour). After that, using Hibernate is quite easy really.


-- 
Stéphane Zuckerman

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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Stéphane Zuckerman]

netsql a écrit :


So are you saying Hibreante for big complex or iBatis for big complex?


I don't know about iBatis, but Hibernate is definitely for medium to big 
projects. The real "complexity" of Hibernate is in its configuration 
(there is more or less one Java class for each table in your DBRMS, with 
one XML configuration file, and a "global" config file to describe 
general behaviour). After that, using Hibernate is quite easy really.



--
Stéphane Zuckerman

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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Ed Griebel]

All too often that's how it works. If you say no, there are people
that will say yes. Even if they end up taking as much time as you said
it would, they've got the project, not you. Sometimes the short time
is understandable, possibly due to uncontrollable situations, but most
of the time it's due to poor (or too much!) planning. Many times the
situation described below is a start to negotiations on budget, scope,
resources, etc., but not always :-)

-ed

On 7/22/05, netsql <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> It has not been unusual to estimate three months
> > for something, and that's fairly realistic to do it right, and the
> > business says "nope, 1.5 months is when we need it".
> 
> 
> I need you to paint the house, but I only have budget to wash my hair?
> 
> That is no respect and a bit like slavery!
> 
> 
> .V
> 
>

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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[netsql]

Stéphane Zuckerman wrote:

Larry Meadors a écrit :

I agree with previous comments saying that Hibernate is useful 
if your project is quite large. Otherwise, the time taken to set it up 
would be better used to do something else. It does add some complexity 
when thinking through a new project, and in case of an existing one, 
there are too many changes that would need to be done to it to be really 
interesting in my opinion (or else, said project wasn't really big anyway).



So are you saying Hibreante for big complex or iBatis for big complex?




(I think most people know which one I say)

.V


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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Stéphane Zuckerman]

Larry Meadors a écrit :
I think I would still like to have the freedom of writing normal SQL 
queries
while having the flexibility of using a mapping tool. I guess Hibernate 
does

provide that kind of flexibility.




Wo, you did a great job of describing iBATIS for not ever using it: 

It uses normal SQL queries, and maps them to POJOs or normal java 
Collections.


Not quite the same really, if I understand well what you're saying. In 
Hibernate, although you can still use real SQL queries, most of the time 
you don't. You rather use HQL (Hibernate Query Language) to get your 
queries done. Suppose you have three tables :


customer(custId,name) * <- buys -> * good(goodId, label)* <- sold by -> 
* shop(shopId,name)


this leads to this data logic model :

customer --- customer_good --- good_shop --- shop

Getting a particular shop from customer_goods means doing something like

Query q = hibernateSession.createQuery("select cg.goodshop.shop from 
CustomerGood as cg where cg.goodshop.shop.name = :shopname");

q.setString("shopname","Wall Mart");
List shops = q.list();

With this query language, you can get "through" tables quite easily.

However, I agree with previous comments saying that Hibernate is useful 
if your project is quite large. Otherwise, the time taken to set it up 
would be better used to do something else. It does add some complexity 
when thinking through a new project, and in case of an existing one, 
there are too many changes that would need to be done to it to be really 
interesting in my opinion (or else, said project wasn't really big anyway).

--
Stéphane Zuckerman

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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[netsql]

Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
It has not been unusual to estimate three months
for something, and that's fairly realistic to do it right, and the 
business says "nope, 1.5 months is when we need it". 



I need you to paint the house, but I only have budget to wash my hair?

That is no respect and a bit like slavery!


.V


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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Larry Meadors]

On 7/21/05, Nitish Kumar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Never worked with IBatis, so can not comment.
> 
> I think I would still like to have the freedom of writing normal SQL 
> queries
> while having the flexibility of using a mapping tool. I guess Hibernate 
> does
> provide that kind of flexibility.


Wo, you did a great job of describing iBATIS for not ever using it: 

It uses normal SQL queries, and maps them to POJOs or normal java 
Collections.

Larry

RE: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Nitish Kumar]

just adding my 2 cents.

I do agree there is no technology which fits all the requirement, I have
used Hibernate 2.X and it really is a big help for normal persistance,
however on some situations it was a nightmare, I hope they fixed up that in
Hibernate3.x. 

Never worked with IBatis, so can not comment. 

I think I would still like to have the freedom of writing normal SQL queries
while having the flexibility of using a mapping tool. I guess Hibernate does
provide that kind of flexibility.  

However if some one want to go and write their own DAO from scratch, I would
suggest them to have a look at Spring's DAO support classes, it can really
help at times.

I am not an architect by the way. -:) So, I guess I do have freedom to fool
around with the technologies. 

Thanks and Regards, 
Nitish Kumar 




-Original Message-
From: Frank W. Zammetti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 7:55 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO


I'd have to agree... It has not been unusual to estimate three months 
for something, and that's fairly realistic to do it right, and the 
business says "nope, 1.5 months is when we need it".  Well, what the 
heck did you ask me for an estimate for in the first place then?!?

I'm a lead architect by the way, very much in a position to influence 
deadlines, but at the end of the day IT is there to service the 
business, not the other way around (unless you happen to work for an IT 
company of course!), so, as Martin says, what's unreasonable?

Frank

Martin Gainty wrote:
> What qualifies as unreasonable? ..give the project lead 2 weeks and 
> he/she cuts it to 2 days?
> BTW: Thats 99% of the companies Ive worked for..
> Where specifically do they NOT follow that behaviour?
> M-
> - Original Message - From: "Derek Broughton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 5:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
> 
> 
>> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
>>
>>> In such cases, the application IS important enough to code
>>> trials, but the business won't allow you to but they STILL want you to
>>> sweat the decisions!  This is a typical way of doing things, going by my
>>> experience.
>>
>>
>> It depends what _your_ job is.  If you're a consultant, you're 
>> expected to
>> _know_ the technology, and the customer isn't paying for you to 
>> experiment.
>> If you're an employee, I've never worked in a situation where you 
>> don't get
>> the time to evaluate the right techniques.
>>
>>>
>>> Even if its the largest initiative of the year for the company, the most
>>> important project, there is still a deadline, usually and unreasonable
>>> one, and taking the time to properly evaluate options isn't always 
>>> given.
>>
>>
>> Then go find a new job.  There's lots of them for capable people - don't
>> work at places that put unreasonable demands on you.
>> -- 
>> derek
>>
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>>
>>
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com


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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Frank W. Zammetti]

I'd have to agree... It has not been unusual to estimate three months 
for something, and that's fairly realistic to do it right, and the 
business says "nope, 1.5 months is when we need it".  Well, what the 
heck did you ask me for an estimate for in the first place then?!?


I'm a lead architect by the way, very much in a position to influence 
deadlines, but at the end of the day IT is there to service the 
business, not the other way around (unless you happen to work for an IT 
company of course!), so, as Martin says, what's unreasonable?


Frank

Martin Gainty wrote:
What qualifies as unreasonable? ..give the project lead 2 weeks and 
he/she cuts it to 2 days?

BTW: Thats 99% of the companies Ive worked for..
Where specifically do they NOT follow that behaviour?
M-
- Original Message - From: "Derek Broughton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO



Frank W. Zammetti wrote:


In such cases, the application IS important enough to code
trials, but the business won't allow you to but they STILL want you to
sweat the decisions!  This is a typical way of doing things, going by my
experience.



It depends what _your_ job is.  If you're a consultant, you're 
expected to
_know_ the technology, and the customer isn't paying for you to 
experiment.
If you're an employee, I've never worked in a situation where you 
don't get

the time to evaluate the right techniques.



Even if its the largest initiative of the year for the company, the most
important project, there is still a deadline, usually and unreasonable
one, and taking the time to properly evaluate options isn't always 
given.



Then go find a new job.  There's lots of them for capable people - don't
work at places that put unreasonable demands on you.
--
derek


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--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com


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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Martin Gainty]

What qualifies as unreasonable? ..give the project lead 2 weeks and he/she 
cuts it to 2 days?

BTW: Thats 99% of the companies Ive worked for..
Where specifically do they NOT follow that behaviour?
M-
- Original Message - 
From: "Derek Broughton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO



Frank W. Zammetti wrote:


In such cases, the application IS important enough to code
trials, but the business won't allow you to but they STILL want you to
sweat the decisions!  This is a typical way of doing things, going by my
experience.


It depends what _your_ job is.  If you're a consultant, you're expected to
_know_ the technology, and the customer isn't paying for you to 
experiment.
If you're an employee, I've never worked in a situation where you don't 
get

the time to evaluate the right techniques.


Even if its the largest initiative of the year for the company, the most
important project, there is still a deadline, usually and unreasonable
one, and taking the time to properly evaluate options isn't always given.


Then go find a new job.  There's lots of them for capable people - don't
work at places that put unreasonable demands on you.
--
derek


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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Derek Broughton]

Frank W. Zammetti wrote:

> In such cases, the application IS important enough to code
> trials, but the business won't allow you to but they STILL want you to
> sweat the decisions!  This is a typical way of doing things, going by my
> experience.

It depends what _your_ job is.  If you're a consultant, you're expected to
_know_ the technology, and the customer isn't paying for you to experiment. 
If you're an employee, I've never worked in a situation where you don't get
the time to evaluate the right techniques.
> 
> Even if its the largest initiative of the year for the company, the most
> important project, there is still a deadline, usually and unreasonable
> one, and taking the time to properly evaluate options isn't always given.

Then go find a new job.  There's lots of them for capable people - don't
work at places that put unreasonable demands on you.
-- 
derek


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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Larry Meadors]

I have to agree with Rick. I have said this before, and will again -
Hibernate is fine if all you want is "persistence".

Hibernate is a major PITA if you need to share the database with other
applications, or if you have to work with a LARGE database, or if you
have to work with a legacy database design.

Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, and threw the darn thing away. ;-)

I am not saying Hibernate sucks, I am saying that it works fine in
*some* cases, but not *all* cases. The same can be said of any
technology - why use a database if something like prevayler will do
the trick, or a properties file.

There are no Silver Bullet technologies.

Larry

On 7/21/05, Rick Reumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lindholm, Greg wrote the following on 7/21/2005 1:01 PM:
> > If your building anything bigger then a toy project then forget POJO
> > DAOs. You'll spend all your time writing grunt-work plumbing and error
> > handling and maintenance is a nightmare.
> >
> > I give a big thumbs-up to Hibernate!
> 
> I'd argue just the opposite.
> 
> If you can design your data model from scratch on a brand new project
> than yea maybe Hibernate will fit the bill, otherwise iBATIS will save
> you much more time and will provide a lot less headaches. How many
> developers have the privilege of not working with legacy databases?
> 
> The fact that you state:
> 
> "You'll spend all your time writing grunt-work plumbing and error
> handling and maintenance is a nightmare."
> 
> only shows you haven't even tried iBATIS since, for if you had, you
> wouldn't be making such erroneous statements.
> 
> --
> Rick
> 
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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Laurie Harper]

Frank W. Zammetti wrote:

The business wants that new product NOW.  They want the efficiency gains,
the added functionality, whatever, NOW.  They would say it is extremely
important.  But, they tend to not really care too much about the
technology.  In such cases, the application IS important enough to code
trials, but the business won't allow you to but they STILL want you to
sweat the decisions!  This is a typical way of doing things, going by my
experience.


Budget, schedule, quality. You can constrain any two. Pick.

:-)

--
Laurie, Open Source advocate, Java geek and novice blogger:
http://www.holoweb.net/laurie


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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Rick Reumann]

Lindholm, Greg wrote the following on 7/21/2005 1:01 PM:

If your building anything bigger then a toy project then forget POJO
DAOs. You'll spend all your time writing grunt-work plumbing and error
handling and maintenance is a nightmare. 


I give a big thumbs-up to Hibernate!


I'd argue just the opposite.

If you can design your data model from scratch on a brand new project 
than yea maybe Hibernate will fit the bill, otherwise iBATIS will save 
you much more time and will provide a lot less headaches. How many 
developers have the privilege of not working with legacy databases?


The fact that you state:

"You'll spend all your time writing grunt-work plumbing and error 
handling and maintenance is a nightmare."


only shows you haven't even tried iBATIS since, for if you had, you 
wouldn't be making such erroneous statements.


--
Rick

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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[John Henry Xu]

Agree with Ted that you may use any of the Java technologies. 

If more people can code their real application in Java, Java has hope. I like 
more doers (who developed real site to compete with other technologies such as 
php) than talkers. 

John H. Xu
Technology columnist/editor, Manager

http://www.UsAnalyst.com
http://www.GetusJobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)  

  - Original Message -
  From: "Ted Husted"
  To: "Struts Users Mailing List" , "Access Denied"
  Subject: Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
  Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:25:02 -0400

  >
  > The problem is that there's not a one-size-fits-all answer to the
  question.
  >
  > A lot depends on the size and scope of your application, the state
  of
  > your database, and the preferences of your developers.
  >
  > Of the three, what your developers think might be the most
  important.
  > People can make any system work, but they have to *want* to make it
  > work.
  >
  > The best answer, really, is to code a representative part of your
  > application either way, and then decide.
  >
  > If the application isn't important enough to code some trials, then
  > it's not important enough to sweat the decision either. Pick one
  and
  > have at it.
  >
  > HTH, Ted.
  >
  > On 7/21/05, Access Denied wrote:
  > > Alls,
  > >
  > > I can't seem to get a convincing answer to the question of using
  an
  > > ORM utilitiy, DB interface framework, or home-grown POJO DAOs.
  Would
  > > you guys with experience in these methodologies comment, please?
  I
  > > think I am spending too much time reading propaganda from iBatis
  and
  > > Hibernate, don't think JDO is ready for prime time yet, and it
  seems
  > > no one is writing their own DAOs anymore.
  >
  >
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Jack H. Xu
Technology columnist/editor

http://www.usanalyst.com

http://www.getusjobs.com (The largest free job portal in North America)

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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[netsql]

Ted Husted wrote:


People can make any system work, but they have to *want* to make it
work.



That is deep! And very true.

.V


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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Frank W. Zammetti]

On Thu, July 21, 2005 1:25 pm, Ted Husted said:
> If the application isn't important enough to code some trials, then
> it's not important enough to sweat the decision either. Pick one and
> have at it.

At the risk of going off-topic, I have to say I really don't agree with
that statement.  I think I understand what your saying, but my experience
would never allow me to say that.

The business wants that new product NOW.  They want the efficiency gains,
the added functionality, whatever, NOW.  They would say it is extremely
important.  But, they tend to not really care too much about the
technology.  In such cases, the application IS important enough to code
trials, but the business won't allow you to but they STILL want you to
sweat the decisions!  This is a typical way of doing things, going by my
experience.

Even if its the largest initiative of the year for the company, the most
important project, there is still a deadline, usually and unreasonable
one, and taking the time to properly evaluate options isn't always given. 
I certainly don't deny that doing as you say, coding a representative part
of the system both ways and then deciding, is the right way to go.  But it
just isn't realistic, at least in my experience.

If you are in an environment where you can do that then you are a luckier
man than I and I say Ted is 100% right in such an environment.  If you are
in, shall we say, a DIFFERENT environment, then having white papers and
comparisons and example apps that help you decide WITHOUT having to do as
Ted suggests is an extremely valuable thing.  While its hard to separate
the propoganda from the objective statement, it is many times the only
choice.

Frank

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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Ted Husted]

The problem is that there's not a one-size-fits-all answer to the question. 

A lot depends on the size and scope of your application, the state of
your database, and the preferences of your developers.

Of the three, what your developers think might be the most important.
People can make any system work, but they have to *want* to make it
work.

The best answer, really, is to code a representative part of your
application either way, and then decide.

If the application isn't important enough to code some trials, then
it's not important enough to sweat the decision either. Pick one and
have at it.

HTH, Ted.

On 7/21/05, Access Denied <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Alls,
> 
> I can't seem to get a convincing answer to the question of using an
> ORM utilitiy, DB interface framework, or home-grown POJO DAOs.  Would
> you guys with experience in these methodologies comment, please?  I
> think I am spending too much time reading propaganda from iBatis and
> Hibernate, don't think JDO is ready for prime time yet, and it seems
> no one is writing their own DAOs anymore.

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RE: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Lindholm, Greg]

If your building anything bigger then a toy project then forget POJO
DAOs. You'll spend all your time writing grunt-work plumbing and error
handling and maintenance is a nightmare. 

I give a big thumbs-up to Hibernate!

I personally don't ever want to write SQL again, and with the tools
available today you don't have to.

With Hibernate you can focus on your object model and it does all the
boring tedious repetitive grunt-work.

I highly recommend the Manning "Hibernate In Action" book. It does a
great job of explaining the whole Object/Relational Mapping problem and
solutions. It goes beyond just data mapping and covers the whole object
lifecycle.  
Even if you choose a different solution, the book is worth a read.


-Original Message-
From: Larry Meadors [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 12:29 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

"I like vi, it is way better than emacs."

Good grief, I hope we do not have another one of these three month
flame-wars...

If you want ORM, use Hibernate.

If you want SQL mapping, use iBATIS.

Larry

On 7/21/05, Lee Harrington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Pick one.  I use hibernatebut I'm sure iBatis is fine too.  Either
> is preferable to writing your own.
> 
> Lee
> On 7/21/05, Access Denied <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Alls,
> >
> > I can't seem to get a convincing answer to the question of using an
> > ORM utilitiy, DB interface framework, or home-grown POJO DAOs.
Would
> > you guys with experience in these methodologies comment, please?  I
> > think I am spending too much time reading propaganda from iBatis and
> > Hibernate, don't think JDO is ready for prime time yet, and it seems
> > no one is writing their own DAOs anymore.
> >
> > ~buddy
> >
> >
-
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> >
> >
> 
> -
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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Larry Meadors]

"I like vi, it is way better than emacs."

Good grief, I hope we do not have another one of these three month flame-wars...

If you want ORM, use Hibernate.

If you want SQL mapping, use iBATIS.

Larry

On 7/21/05, Lee Harrington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Pick one.  I use hibernatebut I'm sure iBatis is fine too.  Either
> is preferable to writing your own.
> 
> Lee
> On 7/21/05, Access Denied <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Alls,
> >
> > I can't seem to get a convincing answer to the question of using an
> > ORM utilitiy, DB interface framework, or home-grown POJO DAOs.  Would
> > you guys with experience in these methodologies comment, please?  I
> > think I am spending too much time reading propaganda from iBatis and
> > Hibernate, don't think JDO is ready for prime time yet, and it seems
> > no one is writing their own DAOs anymore.
> >
> > ~buddy
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> 
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Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Lee Harrington]

Pick one.  I use hibernatebut I'm sure iBatis is fine too.  Either
is preferable to writing your own.

Lee
On 7/21/05, Access Denied <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Alls,
> 
> I can't seem to get a convincing answer to the question of using an
> ORM utilitiy, DB interface framework, or home-grown POJO DAOs.  Would
> you guys with experience in these methodologies comment, please?  I
> think I am spending too much time reading propaganda from iBatis and
> Hibernate, don't think JDO is ready for prime time yet, and it seems
> no one is writing their own DAOs anymore.
> 
> ~buddy
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> 
>

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[OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO

[Access Denied]

Alls,

I can't seem to get a convincing answer to the question of using an
ORM utilitiy, DB interface framework, or home-grown POJO DAOs.  Would
you guys with experience in these methodologies comment, please?  I
think I am spending too much time reading propaganda from iBatis and
Hibernate, don't think JDO is ready for prime time yet, and it seems
no one is writing their own DAOs anymore.

~buddy

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