Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
- Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On Sun, 3 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer wrote: How many ip addys does each customer need in a fully routed network? gateway, ip and broadcast. I see that as three. Or does a /30 use up four? The customer will still use 1. What about the gateway and broadcast addresses? Yeah, the customer only uses one, but it takes more than one to provide that. Can we use a /24 gateway ip for /30 routes? Either way, by bridging each customer only needs one. your customers don't have a gateway? The only difference in routing and bridging as far as this is concerned, is where the gateway IP resides. I think you're missunderstanding what I'm trying to say. If we did a network of /30 addresses how many customers can be put on a class c (256 addresses)? If we just bridge that same class C how many customers can we put on it? The benefits that come with routing to each customer can be made up for by using a router and/or firewall at each cpe and by blocking client to client communications. Both this and routing result in the same thing eh? Customers don't mess with the other customers or the network. Controlling client to client comms on a single AP will only limit access to other clients of the same AP...It will not prevent customer a on AP1 from communicating with customer a on AP2. That's where the vlan switches come in. They'll prevent that from happening. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
The big thing here is... Is one selling revenue or selling a network? If one is selling revenue, the buyer could probably care less what allows the revenue to happen. But personally, I Don;t want to jsut sell revenue, I want to get credit for my infrastructure also. If a network is installed right, with the right gear, it should be worth MORE than the cost to buy the gear new uninstalled, NOT LESS as used gear. I'd argue Alvarion type gear could maximize the value allocated for the infrastructure. It also depends on whetehr someone is trying to get 1X annual versus 6 x annnual. To get the high Xs, you need more than just revenue to sell. The flip view, is if the flexibilty of selling the Mikrotik can gain you revenue quicker (which would need debating), then it could be argued as an advantage to have higher rate of revenue growth than infrastructure credit.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 1:00 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.) Regards, Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Smith Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:19 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Why can't I sell what I've built ?Because it doesn't brag on the Alvarion name ? Please. As for growth path, I've got rooftop leases for these repeaters. They're legally guaranteed for 30 yrs in most cases. Sheesh, in some cases, the houses will fall down before the equipment dies. I noticed that you pointed out the CX-BA-2.4-900 stuff. That's all fine and good. Oranges to Oranges, its WA more expensive to use Alvarion, and by $1000's. CX 2.4/900 repeater is like $2,000 or more. Same functionality with Mikrotik and Ubiquiti is around $500. So, the way I see it, I can put 4 repeaters up, and cover 4 times the area that I can with one CX repeater. AND, my tower side cost me $2,000 less as well! So, $5,000 spent = 1 customer and repeater with tower side on Alvarion, or 9 customers with repeaters and tower side with Mikrotik / Ubiquiti, AND I've got 9 repeaters out there touching a ton more customers. With Mikrotik, I've got firewalling / vpn / qos / bandwidth metering / HOTSPOT / OSPF / WDS / and a routed network all the way to each customer, OR a bridged network if I should so choose. Why would I have any less a path for growth or satisfactory exit in putting together Mikrotik solutions as opposed to Alvarion ? Cost of implementation's cheaper. Cost of replacement's cheaper. Cost of value added services are cheaper, AND implemented with only a phone call from the customer or even a hotspot implementation. Future bandwidth's just there - no manufacturer throttling to pay to upgrade like Alvarion Mikrotik doesn't tell me what I can't do - they put it all there and let you decide. No unlock extortion. Actually, I just sold a chunk of my Pennsylvania network, that was still in a build-up phase, with tower sites installed and a couple customers, for some cash that's going to run the rest of my network for a while. Whole thing was built on Canopy and Mikrotik tower sides and cpe's. Ya know, there IS one product I'll use religiously from Alvarion and it's the 2.4 DS11 backhaul units. Rock solid, decently priced (on the used market) and it's truly install-and-forget-it's-there stuff. I just don't see the financial advantage to spending anything else on Alvarion gear though. Especially when I've got high speed backhauls, short and long distance backhauls, multiple frequency ranges, including licensed and public safety, LOS, NLOS and hotspot / billing / etc all built into one platform that doesn't cost a ton of money, and there's a lot of good support for. I don't see how that's bad business. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
I agree than name brand gear, is a safer bet for a WISP, which is why I primarilly use Name brand certified gear. However your been there done that areguement for 802.11B does not apply. There is a BIG difference between todays flexible 802.11a gear and last generation legacy 802.11b. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:22 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients I second Patrick comments, As a growing wisp and looking to acquisition opportunities, the only way I would buy a 802.11 based wisp was in the premise of tearing that equipment out and putting some Canopy in place... for others it could be Trango or Alvarion. 802.11 gear is good for starting out, but it doesn't scale ... been there, done that. Replaced 100's of 11b gear with Canopy, never looked back. Let me say more, that was the turning point of growth on my company.. Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 3:15 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients No, at the moment just anecdotal. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dylan Oliver Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.) Hi Patrick, What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch a higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell prices? I'd be interested to see it. Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
I always get jealous when I hear the stories where people can pull off using Omni's in 900. In our neck of the woods it is IMPOSSIBLE to get 360 degree of free spectrum on the same channel. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Rick Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:02 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients using SR9's, with small cells - 1 - 2 milers. I have towers fed with 5 gig Tik, and there's generally 20 meg available at any tower. We're pulling 5 gig connections down to a vantage point or two, then using an SR9 with an omni from there to feed SR9 CPEs that have SR2 APs inside -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 9:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients How can you do 5 meg per client on 900 MHz? You would have to have several times that speed available per sector. Are you using the whole 900 MHz band on one sector? If yes then how do you stop self-interference on adjacent sectors? Scriv Rick Smith wrote: I thought about the same things. Once I put canopy or trango in, I've gotta replace the whole damn radio once cable / dsl starts taking away my customers. I'm in a cable / dsl area, and taking customers away from them, and basing it on Mikrotik. We're faster, not cheaper, and definitely better. But without being able to push 5 meg to the customer, I couldn't offer those plans. Doing that with anything but Mikrotik or PERHAPS tranzeo is costly or impossible, in this area due to 900 mhz needs and no clear 5.8 range. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:22 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients I second Patrick comments, As a growing wisp and looking to acquisition opportunities, the only way I would buy a 802.11 based wisp was in the premise of tearing that equipment out and putting some Canopy in place... for others it could be Trango or Alvarion. 802.11 gear is good for starting out, but it doesn't scale ... been there, done that. Replaced 100's of 11b gear with Canopy, never looked back. Let me say more, that was the turning point of growth on my company.. Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 3:15 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients No, at the moment just anecdotal. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dylan Oliver Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.) Hi Patrick, What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch a higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell prices? I'd be interested to see it. Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ *** * This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). *** * *** * This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
The real significant value will come when AP bandwdith management will allow bandwdith management on individual VLAN tags. Meaning, if 10 customers reside behind 1 CPE, 10 seperate bandwidth management assignments can be made for them. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Yeah, the waters in the routed vs. bridged argument are getting more and more muddied all of the time. How many wasted ip's are there in a routed network? Lots. This is a big misconception. I don't have time to go into it here, but the truth of the matter is that what you are calling wasted is better described as a cost in exchange for a benefit. What are the benefits of a routed network? More control and better customer isolation. This is only one of the benefits. Scalability especially in a wireless network is a benefit. Alvarion offering VLAN will provide some of the scalability and other benefits that routing will offer. If you think that VLANs are a scalable solution, look over the networks owned by the tier 1 providers and see what they are using...routed with BGP. With the new ap's that block client to client isolation, with vlan switches, bandwidth controlling cpe (or other solutions) and features like what Patrick is talking about routing is becoming less and less critical every day. No...it's becoming less and less used toward the customer because more and more people are getting into the business of providing internet service without understanding HOW or WHY their network would function better if it were not bridged. You can argue that point if you want, but I have moved more networks from bridged to routed with positive results than the other way around. (there is one notable exception, but I think those results are a bit skewed for other reasons.) Is bridging easier? Yes. Is it common? Among smaller providers, yes. Is is scalable? Only if you use some other technology (such as vlan) to create the separation between the endpoints. As I said, even with VLANs, there is a limit to the scale the network can reach without some routing. solution. They vlan customers into a single port to the isp. Basically frame a fancy switch, almost frame relay. No routing used at all. We don't even have a good option for routing at the You don't think their networks are routed? Look at your border router...the public interface is going to have a /30 address...your range of public IP space is routed via that /30 address. You are incorrect in your assumption that there is no routing used at all. customer other than doing it just because. It's certainly not a requirement. No...not a requirement. It's just a more scalable solution. Maybe if you are a HUGE isp but certainly not for a few hundreds subs. Hundreds of subs it's still a maybe. And with thousands I'd disagree here, too. But, I've only been an ISP since 1993, so what do I know... The technology included in the VL line makes it easier to build a network that can be run by less technical staff. There is a cost savings there too. It is true that the VL line of products offer some real options. VLANs are a GOOD tool, and having this option DOES offer some cool upsale possibilities. But, VLANs are not intended to be a replacement for a routed network. I've been in this business for a long time. I've built several networks to fairly large scale, including more than one to over 1000 customer base. One that I am now managing has over 3000 subs. That network is using VLANs to provide some services. It is using other technologies as well, but the network is routed. You can't scale a bridged network. It's just that simple. As I said in another post...you don't have to believe that, others don't have to do it, but it IS the best practice. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
How many ip addys does each customer need in a fully routed network? gateway, ip and broadcast. I see that as three. Or does a /30 use up four? Either way, by bridging each customer only needs one. The benefits that come with routing to each customer can be made up for by using a router and/or firewall at each cpe and by blocking client to client communications. Both this and routing result in the same thing eh? Customers don't mess with the other customers or the network. marlon - Original Message - From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:57 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Hello Marlon, How do you figure a residential client (or any client for that matter) ties up three IPs? I can see four IPs (/30) or simply one IP out of a larger subnet dedicated to the sector. We typically assign a /29, /28 or /27 to a Trango 60* sector and assign one public IP to each CPE router. The radios get private space to conserve public IP space as well as increase security. IMO, each client deserves one public IP for a variety of reasons. Two come quickly to mind. First, if a client becomes infected with a SPAM virus he'll only get himself blacklisted and not a bunch of clients that happen to also be NAT'd behind the same IP address. Second, even a basic cable modem client gets one public IP address. No reason to give the cable guy a leg up over your service over one IP! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Yeah, the waters in the routed vs. bridged argument are getting more and more muddied all of the time. How many wasted ip's are there in a routed network? Lots. This is a big misconception. I don't have time to go into it here, but the truth of the matter is that what you are calling wasted is better described as a cost in exchange for a benefit. It's a very high cost. Why does every residential user need to tie up 3 ip addys? How long can we keep handing them out like that before we run into trouble again? There is only so much nat that we're gonna get away with. What are the benefits of a routed network? More control and better customer isolation. This is only one of the benefits. Scalability especially in a wireless network is a benefit. Alvarion offering VLAN will provide some of the scalability and other benefits that routing will offer. If you think that VLANs are a scalable solution, look over the networks owned by the tier 1 providers and see what they are using...routed with BGP. With the new ap's that block client to client isolation, with vlan switches, bandwidth controlling cpe (or other solutions) and features like what Patrick is talking about routing is becoming less and less critical every day. No...it's becoming less and less used toward the customer because more and more people are getting into the business of providing internet service without understanding HOW or WHY their network would function better if it were not bridged. You can argue that point if you want, but I have moved more networks from bridged to routed with positive results than the other way around. (there is one notable exception, but I think those results are a bit skewed for other reasons.) Is bridging easier? Yes. Is it common? Among smaller providers, yes. Is is scalable? Only if you use some other technology (such as vlan) to create the separation between the endpoints. As I said, even with VLANs, there is a limit to the scale the network can reach without some routing. solution. They vlan customers into a single port to the isp. Basically frame a fancy switch, almost frame relay. No routing used at all. We don't even have a good option for routing at the You don't think their networks are routed? Look at your border router...the public interface is going to have a /30 address...your range of public IP space is routed via that /30 address. You are incorrect in your assumption that there is no routing used at all. On the client side that's not correct. We have ONE vlan port. ALL of our fiber customers connect right in to that vlan. That vlan hits a switch on our network, right beside one of the main wireless links. No routing till it hits the customer's site. customer other than doing it just because. It's certainly not a requirement. No...not a requirement. It's just a more scalable solution. There are nearly 4000 (unfortunately not all mine :-) 100meg customers on that network. Maybe
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer wrote: How many ip addys does each customer need in a fully routed network? gateway, ip and broadcast. I see that as three. Or does a /30 use up four? The customer will still use 1. Either way, by bridging each customer only needs one. your customers don't have a gateway? The only difference in routing and bridging as far as this is concerned, is where the gateway IP resides. The benefits that come with routing to each customer can be made up for by using a router and/or firewall at each cpe and by blocking client to client communications. Both this and routing result in the same thing eh? Customers don't mess with the other customers or the network. Controlling client to client comms on a single AP will only limit access to other clients of the same AP...It will not prevent customer a on AP1 from communicating with customer a on AP2. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: SPAM ? Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Marlon says: How many ip addys does each customer need in a fully routed network? * One! gateway, ip and broadcast. I see that as three. Or does a /30 use up four? * That depends on how many clients you have off that AP. I generally use a /24 at each tower - or a group of smaller towers. Then all clients off those towers share a mutual broadcast and gateway IP. Either way, by bridging each customer only needs one. * Same as a routed network. The benefits that come with routing to each customer can be made up for by using a router and/or firewall at each cpe and by blocking client to client communications. Both this and routing result in the same thing eh? Customers don't mess with the other customers or the network. * Even in a routed network clients on the same /24 can see one another unless you kill the intra bss ability. Depending on the amount of private IPs you are doing NAT on and where you do it - -I can NAT everyone on my network or just each /24 with 1 public IP that is a part of a /24, /29 /27 ...etc Its really no waste if done in this fashion. Mac marlon - Original Message - From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:57 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Hello Marlon, How do you figure a residential client (or any client for that matter) ties up three IPs? I can see four IPs (/30) or simply one IP out of a larger subnet dedicated to the sector. We typically assign a /29, /28 or /27 to a Trango 60* sector and assign one public IP to each CPE router. The radios get private space to conserve public IP space as well as increase security. IMO, each client deserves one public IP for a variety of reasons. Two come quickly to mind. First, if a client becomes infected with a SPAM virus he'll only get himself blacklisted and not a bunch of clients that happen to also be NAT'd behind the same IP address. Second, even a basic cable modem client gets one public IP address. No reason to give the cable guy a leg up over your service over one IP! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Yeah, the waters in the routed vs. bridged argument are getting more and more muddied all of the time. How many wasted ip's are there in a routed network? Lots. This is a big misconception. I don't have time to go into it here, but the truth of the matter is that what you are calling wasted is better described as a cost in exchange for a benefit. It's a very high cost. Why does every residential user need to tie up 3 ip addys? How long can we keep handing them out like that before we run into trouble again? There is only so much nat that we're gonna get away with. What are the benefits of a routed network? More control and better customer isolation. This is only one of the benefits. Scalability especially in a wireless network is a benefit. Alvarion offering VLAN will provide some of the scalability and other benefits that routing will offer. If you think that VLANs are a scalable solution, look over the networks owned by the tier 1 providers and see what they are using...routed with BGP. With the new ap's that block client to client isolation, with vlan switches, bandwidth controlling cpe (or other solutions) and features like what Patrick is talking about routing is becoming less and less critical every day. No...it's becoming less and less used toward the customer because more and more people are getting into the business of providing internet service without understanding HOW or WHY their network would function better if it were not bridged. You can argue that point if you want, but I have moved more networks from bridged to routed with positive results than the other way around. (there is one notable exception, but I think those results are a bit skewed for other reasons.) Is bridging easier? Yes. Is it common? Among smaller providers, yes. Is is scalable? Only if you use some other technology (such as vlan) to create the separation between the endpoints. As I said, even with VLANs, there is a limit to the scale the network can reach without some routing. solution. They vlan customers into a single port to the isp. Basically frame a fancy switch, almost frame relay. No routing used at all. We don't even have a good option for routing at the You don't think their networks are routed? Look at your border router...the public interface is going to have a /30 address...your range of public IP
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
lol...Butch beat me to the punch. Marlon stated: How many ip addys does each customer need in a fully routed network? gateway, ip and broadcast. I see that as three. Or does a /30 use up four? I still don't see how you add what you stated above as three: Network (1) Gateway (2) IP (3) Broadcast (4) Nevertheless, a bridged network requires this many IPs no different than a routed network. The difference is routing requires the use of three additional IPs per segment of your network and not necessarily for each client. Here is a quick cheat sheet on subnets: /32 = one IP /31 = two IP subnet (rarely used) /30 = four IP subnet /29 = eight IP subnet /28 = sixteen IP subnet /27 = thirty-two IP subnet /26 = sixty-four IP subnet /25 = one hundred twenty-eight IP subnet /24 = two hundred fifty-six IP subnet etc, etc... So, for an example if you had a HUB site with four Sectors and each Sector has approx 25-50 clients you could do one of two things. Bridge the entire 100-200 clients into one large broadcast domain by bridging all four Sectors into one dumb switch or you could segment each Sector into its own subnet by routing your network. Certainly the bridging solution is easier to implement, but considering the risk of one client becoming infected and taking down the entire HUB vs. only one sector I would recommend routing. Simply place a five or more port router at the base of the tower and assign a /26 Subnet to each Sector. In doing this you've burned only nine more IP addresses routing vs. bridging to serve the same 200+ clients. The bridged design will burn three IPs vs. the routed design burning twelve, but again considering the benefits of routing over bridging this is a small price to pay. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 1:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On Sun, 3 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer wrote: The customer will still use 1. Either way, by bridging each customer only needs one. your customers don't have a gateway? The only difference in routing and bridging as far as this is concerned, is where the gateway IP resides. The benefits that come with routing to each customer can be made up for by using a router and/or firewall at each cpe and by blocking client to client communications. Both this and routing result in the same thing eh? Customers don't mess with the other customers or the network. Controlling client to client comms on a single AP will only limit access to other clients of the same AP...It will not prevent customer a on AP1 from communicating with customer a on AP2. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Not sure I follow you Dennis- are you purchasing these new for this price or is this what you are valuing them at takeover? Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dennis Burgess - 2K Wireless Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 1:25 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients We are picking up 2.4 gig CPE/Routers, QOS, NAT, and DHCP is all built into the CPE, for what, 99 bucks! 150 something including a 19db antenna, where the 99 is a 12 db antenna. BTW, both are B/G and 400mw output. Good for here in MO with our dang HILLS! Dennis Burgess, MCP, CCNA, A+, N+, Mikrotik Certified [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.2kwireless.com 2K Wireless provides high-speed internet access, along with network consulting for WISPs, and business's with a focus on TCP/IP networking, security, and Mikrotik routers. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 12:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients You missed the thread though Blair. Our CPEs are as low as $245 complete and only $285 for very low volume (25 a quarter). We have AUs now also for about $2500 MSRP (list price). And we can filter and control packets without a router, including broadcast packet rate limiting. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Blair Davis Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:06 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Why provide routers? To improve the isolation of the user from the network. To filter and control packets at the customer end before they clog up my wireless bandwidth. We run private IP space on our wireless network for the same reasons. We provide anti-virus and anti-spyware software for the same reasons. I'd love to be able to put up $500 cpe's and $5000 AP's But in my area, that would price me out of the market. We Patrick Leary wrote: Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work we have our own router. VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 802.1q. It does layer 2 802.1p. Layer 3 prioritization with IP TOS (RFC791) and DSCP (RFC2474). And layer 4 with UDP/TCP port range. And we can deliver real VoIP QoS with a MOS of 4.0 and better using our proprietary WLP (wireless link prioritization) protocol. (And that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.) Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:24 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: reduced truck roll, Where are you getting this? I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this list. I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router. SO, we would add another $25ish to the cost of your CPE. At this point, the price is exactly the same (or very close). NOW, let's talk about upsell capability. With the Alvarion solution (including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how much? I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd have to change the cost of the router from a $25 router to (at least) a $100 router. If I am able to hit one customer in an area, but the others have obscured LOS, I would have to build another AP somewhere, where with MT, I could just add an $80 (including antenna) upgrade to their router and offer service off that new AP. I can offer real options for firewall, vpn, qos from their ethernet port all the way to my network edge. Did I miss anything? Perhaps there are other options that Alvarion has that I missed. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
New.. www.highgainantennas.com. These are 2.4 though. You an do a 900 for what, a bit over 300. We charge 350 to make sure we are in the green. Dennis Burgess, MCP, CCNA, A+, N+, Mikrotik Certified [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.2kwireless.com 2K Wireless provides high-speed internet access, along with network consulting for WISPs, and business's with a focus on TCP/IP networking, security, and Mikrotik routers. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Cooper Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 3:42 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Not sure I follow you Dennis- are you purchasing these new for this price or is this what you are valuing them at takeover? Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dennis Burgess - 2K Wireless Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 1:25 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients We are picking up 2.4 gig CPE/Routers, QOS, NAT, and DHCP is all built into the CPE, for what, 99 bucks! 150 something including a 19db antenna, where the 99 is a 12 db antenna. BTW, both are B/G and 400mw output. Good for here in MO with our dang HILLS! Dennis Burgess, MCP, CCNA, A+, N+, Mikrotik Certified [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.2kwireless.com 2K Wireless provides high-speed internet access, along with network consulting for WISPs, and business's with a focus on TCP/IP networking, security, and Mikrotik routers. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 12:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients You missed the thread though Blair. Our CPEs are as low as $245 complete and only $285 for very low volume (25 a quarter). We have AUs now also for about $2500 MSRP (list price). And we can filter and control packets without a router, including broadcast packet rate limiting. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Blair Davis Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:06 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Why provide routers? To improve the isolation of the user from the network. To filter and control packets at the customer end before they clog up my wireless bandwidth. We run private IP space on our wireless network for the same reasons. We provide anti-virus and anti-spyware software for the same reasons. I'd love to be able to put up $500 cpe's and $5000 AP's But in my area, that would price me out of the market. We Patrick Leary wrote: Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work we have our own router. VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 802.1q. It does layer 2 802.1p. Layer 3 prioritization with IP TOS (RFC791) and DSCP (RFC2474). And layer 4 with UDP/TCP port range. And we can deliver real VoIP QoS with a MOS of 4.0 and better using our proprietary WLP (wireless link prioritization) protocol. (And that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.) Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:24 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: reduced truck roll, Where are you getting this? I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this list. I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router. SO, we would add another $25ish to the cost of your CPE. At this point, the price is exactly the same (or very close). NOW, let's talk about upsell capability. With the Alvarion solution (including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how much? I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd have to change the cost of the router from a $25 router to (at least) a $100 router. If I am able to hit one customer in an area, but the others have obscured LOS, I
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Yeah, the waters in the routed vs. bridged argument are getting more and more muddied all of the time. How many wasted ip's are there in a routed network? Lots. What are the benefits of a routed network? More control and better customer isolation. With the new ap's that block client to client isolation, with vlan switches, bandwidth controlling cpe (or other solutions) and features like what Patrick is talking about routing is becoming less and less critical every day. Shoot, know how they do the fiber to the home out here? We're talking 100 meg fiber to the home too, not some wimpy 1 meg solution. They vlan customers into a single port to the isp. Basically frame a fancy switch, almost frame relay. No routing used at all. We don't even have a good option for routing at the customer other than doing it just because. It's certainly not a requirement. With so much extra capacity on the network, good switches, proper billing models etc. we don't need to route anything but the boarder connection anymore. Maybe if you are a HUGE isp but certainly not for a few hundreds subs. Hundreds of subs it's still a maybe. And with thousands I'll bet a creative operator could get away without routing just fine. It gets easier every day too. I know the routing purists here will be all over this one :-). But if you think about what I'm saying without the religious fanaticism usually applied to the argument it rings more and more true all of the time. The technology included in the VL line makes it easier to build a network that can be run by less technical staff. There is a cost savings there too. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:28 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients You missed the thread though Blair. Our CPEs are as low as $245 complete and only $285 for very low volume (25 a quarter). We have AUs now also for about $2500 MSRP (list price). And we can filter and control packets without a router, including broadcast packet rate limiting. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Blair Davis Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:06 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Why provide routers? To improve the isolation of the user from the network. To filter and control packets at the customer end before they clog up my wireless bandwidth. We run private IP space on our wireless network for the same reasons. We provide anti-virus and anti-spyware software for the same reasons. I'd love to be able to put up $500 cpe's and $5000 AP's But in my area, that would price me out of the market. We Patrick Leary wrote: Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work we have our own router. VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 802.1q. It does layer 2 802.1p. Layer 3 prioritization with IP TOS (RFC791) and DSCP (RFC2474). And layer 4 with UDP/TCP port range. And we can deliver real VoIP QoS with a MOS of 4.0 and better using our proprietary WLP (wireless link prioritization) protocol. (And that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.) Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:24 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: reduced truck roll, Where are you getting this? I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this list. I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router. SO, we would add another $25ish to the cost of your CPE. At this point, the price is exactly the same (or very close). NOW, let's talk about upsell capability. With the Alvarion solution (including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how much? I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd have to change the cost
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
This is not a good position, I would like to sell my operation @ the moment that I assume I can get the best return for my investment OR as an exit strategy. Would you prefer to sell your customer base to a competitor or loose them all together... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Blair Davis Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 2:09 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Equity value is only important to those who wish to build and sell Those of us who just wish to make a living don't care so much about re-sale value. We are more interested in income. Patrick Leary wrote: I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.) Regards, Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Smith Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:19 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Why can't I sell what I've built ?Because it doesn't brag on the Alvarion name ? Please. As for growth path, I've got rooftop leases for these repeaters. They're legally guaranteed for 30 yrs in most cases. Sheesh, in some cases, the houses will fall down before the equipment dies. I noticed that you pointed out the CX-BA-2.4-900 stuff. That's all fine and good. Oranges to Oranges, its WA more expensive to use Alvarion, and by $1000's. CX 2.4/900 repeater is like $2,000 or more. Same functionality with Mikrotik and Ubiquiti is around $500. So, the way I see it, I can put 4 repeaters up, and cover 4 times the area that I can with one CX repeater. AND, my tower side cost me $2,000 less as well! So, $5,000 spent = 1 customer and repeater with tower side on Alvarion, or 9 customers with repeaters and tower side with Mikrotik / Ubiquiti, AND I've got 9 repeaters out there touching a ton more customers. With Mikrotik, I've got firewalling / vpn / qos / bandwidth metering / HOTSPOT / OSPF / WDS / and a routed network all the way to each customer, OR a bridged network if I should so choose. Why would I have any less a path for growth or satisfactory exit in putting together Mikrotik solutions as opposed to Alvarion ? Cost of implementation's cheaper. Cost of replacement's cheaper. Cost of value added services are cheaper, AND implemented with only a phone call from the customer or even a hotspot implementation. Future bandwidth's just there - no manufacturer throttling to pay to upgrade like Alvarion Mikrotik doesn't tell me what I can't do - they put it all there and let you decide. No unlock extortion. Actually, I just sold a chunk of my Pennsylvania network, that was still in a build-up phase, with tower sites installed and a couple customers, for some cash that's going to run the rest of my network for a while. Whole thing was built on Canopy and Mikrotik tower sides and cpe's. Ya know, there IS one product I'll use religiously from Alvarion and it's the 2.4 DS11 backhaul units. Rock solid, decently priced (on the used market) and it's truly install-and-forget-it's-there stuff. I just don't see the financial advantage to spending anything else on Alvarion gear though. Especially when I've got high speed backhauls, short and long distance backhauls, multiple frequency ranges, including licensed and public safety, LOS, NLOS and hotspot / billing / etc all built into one platform that doesn't cost a ton of money, and there's a lot of good support for. I don't see how that's bad business. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients It is interesting Rick and creative, but with all due respect, you are not building a network that you are going to be able to sell most likely or at least certainly not for a good price. As well, you can't offer advanced services if you want to grow into them. Rick, it is a serious question: what is your path for growth and/or path to have a satisfactory
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
I second Patrick comments, As a growing wisp and looking to acquisition opportunities, the only way I would buy a 802.11 based wisp was in the premise of tearing that equipment out and putting some Canopy in place... for others it could be Trango or Alvarion. 802.11 gear is good for starting out, but it doesn't scale ... been there, done that. Replaced 100's of 11b gear with Canopy, never looked back. Let me say more, that was the turning point of growth on my company.. Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 3:15 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients No, at the moment just anecdotal. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dylan Oliver Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.) Hi Patrick, What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch a higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell prices? I'd be interested to see it. Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
I thought about the same things. Once I put canopy or trango in, I've gotta replace the whole damn radio once cable / dsl starts taking away my customers. I'm in a cable / dsl area, and taking customers away from them, and basing it on Mikrotik. We're faster, not cheaper, and definitely better. But without being able to push 5 meg to the customer, I couldn't offer those plans. Doing that with anything but Mikrotik or PERHAPS tranzeo is costly or impossible, in this area due to 900 mhz needs and no clear 5.8 range. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:22 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients I second Patrick comments, As a growing wisp and looking to acquisition opportunities, the only way I would buy a 802.11 based wisp was in the premise of tearing that equipment out and putting some Canopy in place... for others it could be Trango or Alvarion. 802.11 gear is good for starting out, but it doesn't scale ... been there, done that. Replaced 100's of 11b gear with Canopy, never looked back. Let me say more, that was the turning point of growth on my company.. Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 3:15 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients No, at the moment just anecdotal. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dylan Oliver Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.) Hi Patrick, What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch a higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell prices? I'd be interested to see it. Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
How can you do 5 meg per client on 900 MHz? You would have to have several times that speed available per sector. Are you using the whole 900 MHz band on one sector? If yes then how do you stop self-interference on adjacent sectors? Scriv Rick Smith wrote: I thought about the same things. Once I put canopy or trango in, I've gotta replace the whole damn radio once cable / dsl starts taking away my customers. I'm in a cable / dsl area, and taking customers away from them, and basing it on Mikrotik. We're faster, not cheaper, and definitely better. But without being able to push 5 meg to the customer, I couldn't offer those plans. Doing that with anything but Mikrotik or PERHAPS tranzeo is costly or impossible, in this area due to 900 mhz needs and no clear 5.8 range. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:22 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients I second Patrick comments, As a growing wisp and looking to acquisition opportunities, the only way I would buy a 802.11 based wisp was in the premise of tearing that equipment out and putting some Canopy in place... for others it could be Trango or Alvarion. 802.11 gear is good for starting out, but it doesn't scale ... been there, done that. Replaced 100's of 11b gear with Canopy, never looked back. Let me say more, that was the turning point of growth on my company.. Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 3:15 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients No, at the moment just anecdotal. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dylan Oliver Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.) Hi Patrick, What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch a higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell prices? I'd be interested to see it. Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
using SR9's, with small cells - 1 - 2 milers. I have towers fed with 5 gig Tik, and there's generally 20 meg available at any tower. We're pulling 5 gig connections down to a vantage point or two, then using an SR9 with an omni from there to feed SR9 CPEs that have SR2 APs inside -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 9:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients How can you do 5 meg per client on 900 MHz? You would have to have several times that speed available per sector. Are you using the whole 900 MHz band on one sector? If yes then how do you stop self-interference on adjacent sectors? Scriv Rick Smith wrote: I thought about the same things. Once I put canopy or trango in, I've gotta replace the whole damn radio once cable / dsl starts taking away my customers. I'm in a cable / dsl area, and taking customers away from them, and basing it on Mikrotik. We're faster, not cheaper, and definitely better. But without being able to push 5 meg to the customer, I couldn't offer those plans. Doing that with anything but Mikrotik or PERHAPS tranzeo is costly or impossible, in this area due to 900 mhz needs and no clear 5.8 range. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:22 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients I second Patrick comments, As a growing wisp and looking to acquisition opportunities, the only way I would buy a 802.11 based wisp was in the premise of tearing that equipment out and putting some Canopy in place... for others it could be Trango or Alvarion. 802.11 gear is good for starting out, but it doesn't scale ... been there, done that. Replaced 100's of 11b gear with Canopy, never looked back. Let me say more, that was the turning point of growth on my company.. Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 3:15 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients No, at the moment just anecdotal. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dylan Oliver Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.) Hi Patrick, What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch a higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell prices? I'd be interested to see it. Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ *** * This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). *** * *** * This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). *** * *** * This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. *** * -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Hi Patrick, What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch a higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell prices? I'd be interested to see it. Can't resist... It's mainly due to the current Canopy gear trade-out promo Buy an Alvarion network, get your $8k Canopy credit, sell Alvarion to American (more ), buy replacement Canopies for $8k =) ducking -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Retaking the thread, all you guys doing Miktotik 900 mhz, why don't you try OSBridge 900 Client ? it's Mikrotik compatible, it has built in Router and you don't have to waste your time sourcing parts, dealing with diff warranties and assembling it. Its $280 plus antenna Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Smith Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:02 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients using SR9's, with small cells - 1 - 2 milers. I have towers fed with 5 gig Tik, and there's generally 20 meg available at any tower. We're pulling 5 gig connections down to a vantage point or two, then using an SR9 with an omni from there to feed SR9 CPEs that have SR2 APs inside -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 9:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients How can you do 5 meg per client on 900 MHz? You would have to have several times that speed available per sector. Are you using the whole 900 MHz band on one sector? If yes then how do you stop self-interference on adjacent sectors? Scriv Rick Smith wrote: I thought about the same things. Once I put canopy or trango in, I've gotta replace the whole damn radio once cable / dsl starts taking away my customers. I'm in a cable / dsl area, and taking customers away from them, and basing it on Mikrotik. We're faster, not cheaper, and definitely better. But without being able to push 5 meg to the customer, I couldn't offer those plans. Doing that with anything but Mikrotik or PERHAPS tranzeo is costly or impossible, in this area due to 900 mhz needs and no clear 5.8 range. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:22 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients I second Patrick comments, As a growing wisp and looking to acquisition opportunities, the only way I would buy a 802.11 based wisp was in the premise of tearing that equipment out and putting some Canopy in place... for others it could be Trango or Alvarion. 802.11 gear is good for starting out, but it doesn't scale ... been there, done that. Replaced 100's of 11b gear with Canopy, never looked back. Let me say more, that was the turning point of growth on my company.. Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 3:15 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients No, at the moment just anecdotal. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dylan Oliver Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.) Hi Patrick, What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch a higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell prices? I'd be interested to see it. Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ *** * This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). *** * *** * This footnote
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
There is a HUGE problem with Mikrotik and FCC certification. The Mikrotik 532 puts out over 30db of constant noise in an area they should not be (150MHz and 400MHz). It's still an issue, and has not been fixed or even addressed by MT. Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work we have our own router. I provide a router because that is the best network design and it offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a COMMODITY service (transport). You don't have to agree with it, others don't have to do it, but them's the facts. VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.) Wow. As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph) Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out to be. I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a little more like shades of grey. I'm not supporting anyone breaking the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a difference between operating a system that is not certified within legal limits and operating a system that operates outside legal power limits. The primary difference is that one of these (you get to pick) will cause more harm to the usability of the spectrum than the other. On another subject, take another look at the subject line...It's not about Alvarion gear, but you seem to have stepped into the middle of it (once again). I really just wish you'd at least have the courtesy to change the subject line if you are going to change the subject. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
nice Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:11 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Hi Patrick, What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch a higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell prices? I'd be interested to see it. Can't resist... It's mainly due to the current Canopy gear trade-out promo Buy an Alvarion network, get your $8k Canopy credit, sell Alvarion to American (more ), buy replacement Canopies for $8k =) ducking -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
It's a problem with 100baseT Modulation, Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Smith Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 12:12 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients I had the same problem with some canopy access points - had to do with Ethernet. I put an AP up on a tower, and it interfered with a HAM radio guy. Once I moved it down on the tower 20 feet, the problem went away. I put a 532 right next to that HAM'r and nothing happened, I've got a nice 5.8 gig feed and a 2.4 repeater there now... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:30 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients There is a HUGE problem with Mikrotik and FCC certification. The Mikrotik 532 puts out over 30db of constant noise in an area they should not be (150MHz and 400MHz). It's still an issue, and has not been fixed or even addressed by MT. Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work we have our own router. I provide a router because that is the best network design and it offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a COMMODITY service (transport). You don't have to agree with it, others don't have to do it, but them's the facts. VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.) Wow. As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph) Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out to be. I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a little more like shades of grey. I'm not supporting anyone breaking the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a difference between operating a system that is not certified within legal limits and operating a system that operates outside legal power limits. The primary difference is that one of these (you get to pick) will cause more harm to the usability of the spectrum than the other. On another subject, take another look at the subject line...It's not about Alvarion gear, but you seem to have stepped into the middle of it (once again). I really just wish you'd at least have the courtesy to change the subject line if you are going to change the subject. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
is there somewhere where I could find documentation on this issue. I'm just about to migrate many of my POPs from custom-wrap/soekris boards to MT routerboards. On 12/2/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is a HUGE problem with Mikrotik and FCC certification. The Mikrotik 532 puts out over 30db of constant noise in an area they should not be (150MHz and 400MHz). It's still an issue, and has not been fixed or even addressed by MT. Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work we have our own router. I provide a router because that is the best network design and it offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a COMMODITY service (transport). You don't have to agree with it, others don't have to do it, but them's the facts. VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.) Wow. As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph) Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out to be. I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a little more like shades of grey. I'm not supporting anyone breaking the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a difference between operating a system that is not certified within legal limits and operating a system that operates outside legal power limits. The primary difference is that one of these (you get to pick) will cause more harm to the usability of the spectrum than the other. On another subject, take another look at the subject line...It's not about Alvarion gear, but you seem to have stepped into the middle of it (once again). I really just wish you'd at least have the courtesy to change the subject line if you are going to change the subject. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Many outside radios suffer from RF radiation over the Ethernet. I have personally seen this on the YDI Etherant and the Trango FOX. This problem is not specific to any one manufacturer. The cable acts as a transmit antenna, carrying the clock signals from internally to the outside. This can be largely corrected with the use of ferrite beads at the radio and POE injector on these radios. This is a low cost fix in many cases and I have personally seen a 16 db improvement in noise elimination using this approach. Just Google ferrite beads and I am sure you will find suppliers. I do not remember where we got ours but they were very inexpensive. I think we paid less than a dollar a piece for these. They are literally a snap to install. They snap together over the Ethernet wire. It takes seconds to install. Scriv Rick Smith wrote: I had the same problem with some canopy access points - had to do with Ethernet. I put an AP up on a tower, and it interfered with a HAM radio guy. Once I moved it down on the tower 20 feet, the problem went away. I put a 532 right next to that HAM'r and nothing happened, I've got a nice 5.8 gig feed and a 2.4 repeater there now... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:30 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients There is a HUGE problem with Mikrotik and FCC certification. The Mikrotik 532 puts out over 30db of constant noise in an area they should not be (150MHz and 400MHz). It's still an issue, and has not been fixed or even addressed by MT. Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work we have our own router. I provide a router because that is the best network design and it offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a COMMODITY service (transport). You don't have to agree with it, others don't have to do it, but them's the facts. VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.) Wow. As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph) Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out to be. I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a little more like shades of grey. I'm not supporting anyone breaking the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a difference between operating a system that is not certified within legal limits and operating a system that operates outside legal power limits. The primary difference is that one of these (you get to pick) will cause more harm to the usability of the spectrum than the other. On another subject, take another look at the subject line...It's not about Alvarion gear, but you seem to have stepped into the middle of it (once again). I really just wish you'd at least have the courtesy to change the subject line if you are going to change the subject. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 MHz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
I haven't ever seen any documentation on the interference issue and I have never had any complaints from any where we have our gear. We are co-located on Parish towers, leased space on various towers and then have some of our towers with space leased to other agencies. There are all types of RF on all these sites and we are running many (read very MANY) MTRB532's with no trouble. There are fire dept, sheriff's depts, (3 Parishes) ambulance services, water companies, HAM radios, farm 2 ways, local PD's, as well as cell phone and pagers on all of these sites. I feel assured if there were a problem - - I would have been the one to have found it as we stand a great chance of interfering with numerous sub 200MHz spectrum. I will take a picture and post it as some of our MT RB532's are nestled in amongst numerous sub 200MHz antennas and have never heard a word from anyone - - - I don't doubt (as Scriv mentioned) that there could be some harmonics or RF radiation over Ethernet - but it cant be very high or very bad. IMHO Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of rabbtux rabbtux Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:16 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients is there somewhere where I could find documentation on this issue. I'm just about to migrate many of my POPs from custom-wrap/soekris boards to MT routerboards. On 12/2/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is a HUGE problem with Mikrotik and FCC certification. The Mikrotik 532 puts out over 30db of constant noise in an area they should not be (150MHz and 400MHz). It's still an issue, and has not been fixed or even addressed by MT. Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work we have our own router. I provide a router because that is the best network design and it offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a COMMODITY service (transport). You don't have to agree with it, others don't have to do it, but them's the facts. VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.) Wow. As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph) Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out to be. I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a little more like shades of grey. I'm not supporting anyone breaking the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a difference between operating a system that is not certified within legal limits and operating a system that operates outside legal power limits. The primary difference is that one of these (you get to pick) will cause more harm to the usability of the spectrum than the other. On another subject, take another look at the subject line...It's not about Alvarion gear, but you seem to have stepped into the middle of it (once again). I really just wish you'd at least have the courtesy to change the subject line if you are going to change the subject. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
I have only seen this type of interference three times. Twice with Etherants and once with a Trango FOX. I have heard of other gear having similar issues from other WISPs. It usually effects over-the-air television or two-way radio communications located on the same tower as the data radio. I have heard of this type of interference a few times in regard to the RB532. I do not know if this particular board has a higher degree of this interference or if it is just a popular radio which has been identified to have similar issues. I do not have any RB532s in the field so I cannot speak to this one way or another for that particular product. I am guessing that some manufacturers have identified and resolved these issues prior to product release while others have not. From what I hear about the RB532 this is still an ongoing issue. I am also guessing that ferrite beads will at least diminish the level of noise for those who are dealing with this. Scriv Patrick Leary wrote: Very cool troubleshooting trick, but I've never heard of the problem. Is that wide spread John? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:50 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Many outside radios suffer from RF radiation over the Ethernet. I have personally seen this on the YDI Etherant and the Trango FOX. This problem is not specific to any one manufacturer. The cable acts as a transmit antenna, carrying the clock signals from internally to the outside. This can be largely corrected with the use of ferrite beads at the radio and POE injector on these radios. This is a low cost fix in many cases and I have personally seen a 16 db improvement in noise elimination using this approach. Just Google ferrite beads and I am sure you will find suppliers. I do not remember where we got ours but they were very inexpensive. I think we paid less than a dollar a piece for these. They are literally a snap to install. They snap together over the Ethernet wire. It takes seconds to install. Scriv Rick Smith wrote: I had the same problem with some canopy access points - had to do with Ethernet. I put an AP up on a tower, and it interfered with a HAM radio guy. Once I moved it down on the tower 20 feet, the problem went away. I put a 532 right next to that HAM'r and nothing happened, I've got a nice 5.8 gig feed and a 2.4 repeater there now... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:30 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients There is a HUGE problem with Mikrotik and FCC certification. The Mikrotik 532 puts out over 30db of constant noise in an area they should not be (150MHz and 400MHz). It's still an issue, and has not been fixed or even addressed by MT. Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work we have our own router. I provide a router because that is the best network design and it offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a COMMODITY service (transport). You don't have to agree with it, others don't have to do it, but them's the facts. VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.) Wow. As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph) Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out to be. I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a little more like shades of grey. I'm not supporting anyone breaking the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a difference between operating a system that is not certified within legal limits and operating a system that operates outside legal power limits. The primary difference is that one of these (you get to pick) will cause more harm
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
I would LOVE to buy some and test this solution... as I don't believe that will fix the problem with the RB532's. The reason I say this is the problem is actually WORSE when you use just the regular 48V power supply (not PoE) and don't even plug an ethernet cable into the board at all. The noise is coming directly off the board. If someone wants to send me some, I can easily test it. I'll even pay for them and shipping. Travis Microserv John Scrivner wrote: Many outside radios suffer from RF radiation over the Ethernet. I have personally seen this on the YDI Etherant and the Trango FOX. This problem is not specific to any one manufacturer. The cable acts as a transmit antenna, carrying the clock signals from internally to the outside. This can be largely corrected with the use of ferrite beads at the radio and POE injector on these radios. This is a low cost fix in many cases and I have personally seen a 16 db improvement in noise elimination using this approach. Just Google ferrite beads and I am sure you will find suppliers. I do not remember where we got ours but they were very inexpensive. I think we paid less than a dollar a piece for these. They are literally a snap to install. They snap together over the Ethernet wire. It takes seconds to install. Scriv Rick Smith wrote: I had the same problem with some canopy access points - had to do with Ethernet. I put an AP up on a tower, and it interfered with a HAM radio guy. Once I moved it down on the tower 20 feet, the problem went away. I put a 532 right next to that HAM'r and nothing happened, I've got a nice 5.8 gig feed and a 2.4 repeater there now... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:30 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients There is a HUGE problem with Mikrotik and FCC certification. The Mikrotik 532 puts out over 30db of constant noise in an area they should not be (150MHz and 400MHz). It's still an issue, and has not been fixed or even addressed by MT. Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work we have our own router. I provide a router because that is the best network design and it offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a COMMODITY service (transport). You don't have to agree with it, others don't have to do it, but them's the facts. VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.) Wow. As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph) Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out to be. I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a little more like shades of grey. I'm not supporting anyone breaking the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a difference between operating a system that is not certified within legal limits and operating a system that operates outside legal power limits. The primary difference is that one of these (you get to pick) will cause more harm to the usability of the spectrum than the other. On another subject, take another look at the subject line...It's not about Alvarion gear, but you seem to have stepped into the middle of it (once again). I really just wish you'd at least have the courtesy to change the subject line if you are going to change the subject. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Just a FYI, I would not be purchasing ANY of the equipment in most cases. 3-6 months of each customers monthly reoccurring, and I am taking over your costs on the towers. That's about it. Now if your network has standards, as mine has MTs for APs only, and such, or any other brand, I would look at that as, ya that equipment is worth something Even if it was MTs, a tower with 3 sectors and a backhaul would only be worth, what 500 to 1000 in a buy out. That's assuming that it is all working and the subs are the same. If I had to buy proprietary gear to add customers, then I would maybe even drop that price a bit. What I am trying to say is that the gear really don't matter, it's the subs and the leases. The leases are a liability, they cost, so I am not going to purchase a lease from someone. I will purchase what equipment is up there, and the subs they are off of. But most likely would swap that out at the time of takeover. (Been thinking of this lately) Dennis Burgess, MCP, CCNA, A+, N+, Mikrotik Certified [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.2kwireless.com 2K Wireless provides high-speed internet access, along with network consulting for WISPs, and business's with a focus on TCP/IP networking, security, and Mikrotik routers. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 12:01 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.) Regards, Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Smith Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:19 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Why can't I sell what I've built ?Because it doesn't brag on the Alvarion name ? Please. As for growth path, I've got rooftop leases for these repeaters. They're legally guaranteed for 30 yrs in most cases. Sheesh, in some cases, the houses will fall down before the equipment dies. I noticed that you pointed out the CX-BA-2.4-900 stuff. That's all fine and good. Oranges to Oranges, its WA more expensive to use Alvarion, and by $1000's. CX 2.4/900 repeater is like $2,000 or more. Same functionality with Mikrotik and Ubiquiti is around $500. So, the way I see it, I can put 4 repeaters up, and cover 4 times the area that I can with one CX repeater. AND, my tower side cost me $2,000 less as well! So, $5,000 spent = 1 customer and repeater with tower side on Alvarion, or 9 customers with repeaters and tower side with Mikrotik / Ubiquiti, AND I've got 9 repeaters out there touching a ton more customers. With Mikrotik, I've got firewalling / vpn / qos / bandwidth metering / HOTSPOT / OSPF / WDS / and a routed network all the way to each customer, OR a bridged network if I should so choose. Why would I have any less a path for growth or satisfactory exit in putting together Mikrotik solutions as opposed to Alvarion ? Cost of implementation's cheaper. Cost of replacement's cheaper. Cost of value added services are cheaper, AND implemented with only a phone call from the customer or even a hotspot implementation. Future bandwidth's just there - no manufacturer throttling to pay to upgrade like Alvarion Mikrotik doesn't tell me what I can't do - they put it all there and let you decide. No unlock extortion. Actually, I just sold a chunk of my Pennsylvania network, that was still in a build-up phase, with tower sites installed and a couple customers, for some cash that's going to run the rest of my network for a while. Whole thing was built on Canopy and Mikrotik tower sides and cpe's. Ya know, there IS one product I'll use religiously from Alvarion and it's the 2.4 DS11 backhaul units. Rock solid, decently priced (on the used market) and it's truly install-and-forget-it's-there stuff. I just don't see the financial advantage to spending anything else on Alvarion gear though. Especially when I've got high speed backhauls, short and long distance backhauls, multiple frequency ranges, including licensed and public safety, LOS, NLOS and hotspot / billing / etc all built into one platform that doesn't
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
We are picking up 2.4 gig CPE/Routers, QOS, NAT, and DHCP is all built into the CPE, for what, 99 bucks! 150 something including a 19db antenna, where the 99 is a 12 db antenna. BTW, both are B/G and 400mw output. Good for here in MO with our dang HILLS! Dennis Burgess, MCP, CCNA, A+, N+, Mikrotik Certified [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.2kwireless.com 2K Wireless provides high-speed internet access, along with network consulting for WISPs, and business's with a focus on TCP/IP networking, security, and Mikrotik routers. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 12:28 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients You missed the thread though Blair. Our CPEs are as low as $245 complete and only $285 for very low volume (25 a quarter). We have AUs now also for about $2500 MSRP (list price). And we can filter and control packets without a router, including broadcast packet rate limiting. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Blair Davis Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:06 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Why provide routers? To improve the isolation of the user from the network. To filter and control packets at the customer end before they clog up my wireless bandwidth. We run private IP space on our wireless network for the same reasons. We provide anti-virus and anti-spyware software for the same reasons. I'd love to be able to put up $500 cpe's and $5000 AP's But in my area, that would price me out of the market. We Patrick Leary wrote: Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work we have our own router. VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 802.1q. It does layer 2 802.1p. Layer 3 prioritization with IP TOS (RFC791) and DSCP (RFC2474). And layer 4 with UDP/TCP port range. And we can deliver real VoIP QoS with a MOS of 4.0 and better using our proprietary WLP (wireless link prioritization) protocol. (And that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.) Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:24 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: reduced truck roll, Where are you getting this? I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this list. I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router. SO, we would add another $25ish to the cost of your CPE. At this point, the price is exactly the same (or very close). NOW, let's talk about upsell capability. With the Alvarion solution (including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how much? I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd have to change the cost of the router from a $25 router to (at least) a $100 router. If I am able to hit one customer in an area, but the others have obscured LOS, I would have to build another AP somewhere, where with MT, I could just add an $80 (including antenna) upgrade to their router and offer service off that new AP. I can offer real options for firewall, vpn, qos from their ethernet port all the way to my network edge. Did I miss anything? Perhaps there are other options that Alvarion has that I missed. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, JohnnyO wrote: Travis - please show me PROOF of this - Lemme see the scans you've performed by Spec-An and any other documented data you've accumulated. I've heard of this issue. I will be doing some testing in the next 2 weeks with some conclusive tests. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Butch... here is what we found... Non-PoE 48V input was the worst for noise at 100-150MHz and 400-450MHz. PoE 48V was down a little, but only slightly. Non-PoE 18V input got rid of most of the 100-150MHz, and dropped the 400-450MHz by 70%. PoE 18V was down more, with 99% of the 100-150MHz gone and the 400-450MHz down by 80% or more. Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, JohnnyO wrote: Travis - please show me PROOF of this - Lemme see the scans you've performed by Spec-An and any other documented data you've accumulated. I've heard of this issue. I will be doing some testing in the next 2 weeks with some conclusive tests. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Yeah, the waters in the routed vs. bridged argument are getting more and more muddied all of the time. How many wasted ip's are there in a routed network? Lots. This is a big misconception. I don't have time to go into it here, but the truth of the matter is that what you are calling wasted is better described as a cost in exchange for a benefit. What are the benefits of a routed network? More control and better customer isolation. This is only one of the benefits. Scalability especially in a wireless network is a benefit. Alvarion offering VLAN will provide some of the scalability and other benefits that routing will offer. If you think that VLANs are a scalable solution, look over the networks owned by the tier 1 providers and see what they are using...routed with BGP. With the new ap's that block client to client isolation, with vlan switches, bandwidth controlling cpe (or other solutions) and features like what Patrick is talking about routing is becoming less and less critical every day. No...it's becoming less and less used toward the customer because more and more people are getting into the business of providing internet service without understanding HOW or WHY their network would function better if it were not bridged. You can argue that point if you want, but I have moved more networks from bridged to routed with positive results than the other way around. (there is one notable exception, but I think those results are a bit skewed for other reasons.) Is bridging easier? Yes. Is it common? Among smaller providers, yes. Is is scalable? Only if you use some other technology (such as vlan) to create the separation between the endpoints. As I said, even with VLANs, there is a limit to the scale the network can reach without some routing. solution. They vlan customers into a single port to the isp. Basically frame a fancy switch, almost frame relay. No routing used at all. We don't even have a good option for routing at the You don't think their networks are routed? Look at your border router...the public interface is going to have a /30 address...your range of public IP space is routed via that /30 address. You are incorrect in your assumption that there is no routing used at all. customer other than doing it just because. It's certainly not a requirement. No...not a requirement. It's just a more scalable solution. Maybe if you are a HUGE isp but certainly not for a few hundreds subs. Hundreds of subs it's still a maybe. And with thousands I'd disagree here, too. But, I've only been an ISP since 1993, so what do I know... The technology included in the VL line makes it easier to build a network that can be run by less technical staff. There is a cost savings there too. It is true that the VL line of products offer some real options. VLANs are a GOOD tool, and having this option DOES offer some cool upsale possibilities. But, VLANs are not intended to be a replacement for a routed network. I've been in this business for a long time. I've built several networks to fairly large scale, including more than one to over 1000 customer base. One that I am now managing has over 3000 subs. That network is using VLANs to provide some services. It is using other technologies as well, but the network is routed. You can't scale a bridged network. It's just that simple. As I said in another post...you don't have to believe that, others don't have to do it, but it IS the best practice. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Travis Johnson wrote: Non-PoE 48V input was the worst for noise at 100-150MHz and 400-450MHz. PoE 48V was down a little, but only slightly. Non-PoE 18V input got rid of most of the 100-150MHz, and dropped the 400-450MHz by 70%. PoE 18V was down more, with 99% of the 100-150MHz gone and the 400-450MHz down by 80% or more. I'll test against these results and post what I find. I hope to be able to do this after hours at TenX (at the training class I'm doing there). -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Ferrite beads help but do not solve the issue -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:32 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients I would LOVE to buy some and test this solution... as I don't believe that will fix the problem with the RB532's. The reason I say this is the problem is actually WORSE when you use just the regular 48V power supply (not PoE) and don't even plug an ethernet cable into the board at all. The noise is coming directly off the board. If someone wants to send me some, I can easily test it. I'll even pay for them and shipping. Travis Microserv John Scrivner wrote: Many outside radios suffer from RF radiation over the Ethernet. I have personally seen this on the YDI Etherant and the Trango FOX. This problem is not specific to any one manufacturer. The cable acts as a transmit antenna, carrying the clock signals from internally to the outside. This can be largely corrected with the use of ferrite beads at the radio and POE injector on these radios. This is a low cost fix in many cases and I have personally seen a 16 db improvement in noise elimination using this approach. Just Google ferrite beads and I am sure you will find suppliers. I do not remember where we got ours but they were very inexpensive. I think we paid less than a dollar a piece for these. They are literally a snap to install. They snap together over the Ethernet wire. It takes seconds to install. Scriv Rick Smith wrote: I had the same problem with some canopy access points - had to do with Ethernet. I put an AP up on a tower, and it interfered with a HAM radio guy. Once I moved it down on the tower 20 feet, the problem went away. I put a 532 right next to that HAM'r and nothing happened, I've got a nice 5.8 gig feed and a 2.4 repeater there now... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:30 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients There is a HUGE problem with Mikrotik and FCC certification. The Mikrotik 532 puts out over 30db of constant noise in an area they should not be (150MHz and 400MHz). It's still an issue, and has not been fixed or even addressed by MT. Travis Microserv Butch Evans wrote: On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work we have our own router. I provide a router because that is the best network design and it offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a COMMODITY service (transport). You don't have to agree with it, others don't have to do it, but them's the facts. VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.) Wow. As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph) Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out to be. I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a little more like shades of grey. I'm not supporting anyone breaking the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a difference between operating a system that is not certified within legal limits and operating a system that operates outside legal power limits. The primary difference is that one of these (you get to pick) will cause more harm to the usability of the spectrum than the other. On another subject, take another look at the subject line...It's not about Alvarion gear, but you seem to have stepped into the middle of it (once again). I really just wish you'd at least have the courtesy to change the subject line if you are going to change the subject. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Each product has strength and weaknesses and what is best for a city wisp probably won't cut it for some one in the boonies. We use to use Trango but they moved there product closer to Moto and I for us that was the wrong direction. We also have many hundred Wave rider customers and even with some of its draw backs compared to newer products the software is great compared to Trango, you can solve almost any issue from you desktop where you need other tools or hardware to come close on a Trango. The Alvarion products I have used are top notch but their 900mhz is lacking in many ways. I would tend to side a bit with Patrick on a brand name network having a better resale value and potential as it is a know quantity where as a Mikrotik networks quality is harder to value as it depends more on the people who put it together. But just because your use M$ for your PC and network does not mean you have a better network or desktop when compared to Linux. It's just different. Mikrotik is not just about 802.11a/b/g which in most cases I try and avoid. They to have a proprietary protocol too that employs polling for P2MP and does away with may of the a/b/g issues. With Mikrotik you are not dependent on a single vendor and their stock issues, you can in most cases work around them. Think of it this way too. No multi thousand dollar spares sitting on a self getting dusty. If my main back haul, AP, Hotspot, etc. takes a lighting hit, I can convert my own client radio into a back haul or what ever and tune it to any frequency from 4.9ghz to 6ghz or just even grab an old 486 and a wireless nic from a local store and your up in only an hour or so longer then it takes to drive to the site. Due to the frequency rang available you also do not have to stock a selection of multi hundred dollar CPE's or multi thousand dollar APs' to cover different bands. About the only disadvantage I see in this is that I'm guessing that products like Alvarion MAY perform better in noisy environments as the frequency restriction on these products should in theory provide better selectivity then mPCI based cards... It would be interesting to test some things like adjacent channel rejection and other stuff that is never spec'ed by the vendors. Erik John Scrivner wrote: I have only seen this type of interference three times. Twice with Etherants and once with a Trango FOX. I have heard of other gear having similar issues from other WISPs. It usually effects over-the-air television or two-way radio communications located on the same tower as the data radio. I have heard of this type of interference a few times in regard to the RB532. I do not know if this particular board has a higher degree of this interference or if it is just a popular radio which has been identified to have similar issues. I do not have any RB532s in the field so I cannot speak to this one way or another for that particular product. I am guessing that some manufacturers have identified and resolved these issues prior to product release while others have not. From what I hear about the RB532 this is still an ongoing issue. I am also guessing that ferrite beads will at least diminish the level of noise for those who are dealing with this. Scriv Patrick Leary wrote: Very cool troubleshooting trick, but I've never heard of the problem. Is that wide spread John? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:50 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Many outside radios suffer from RF radiation over the Ethernet. I have personally seen this on the YDI Etherant and the Trango FOX. This problem is not specific to any one manufacturer. The cable acts as a transmit antenna, carrying the clock signals from internally to the outside. This can be largely corrected with the use of ferrite beads at the radio and POE injector on these radios. This is a low cost fix in many cases and I have personally seen a 16 db improvement in noise elimination using this approach. Just Google ferrite beads and I am sure you will find suppliers. I do not remember where we got ours but they were very inexpensive. I think we paid less than a dollar a piece for these. They are literally a snap to install. They snap together over the Ethernet wire. It takes seconds to install. Scriv Rick Smith wrote: I had the same problem with some canopy access points - had to do with Ethernet. I put an AP up on a tower, and it interfered with a HAM radio guy. Once I moved it down on the tower 20 feet, the problem went away. I put a 532 right next to that HAM'r and nothing happened, I've got a nice 5.8 gig feed and a 2.4 repeater there now... -Original Message- From
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
- Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Yeah, the waters in the routed vs. bridged argument are getting more and more muddied all of the time. How many wasted ip's are there in a routed network? Lots. This is a big misconception. I don't have time to go into it here, but the truth of the matter is that what you are calling wasted is better described as a cost in exchange for a benefit. It's a very high cost. Why does every residential user need to tie up 3 ip addys? How long can we keep handing them out like that before we run into trouble again? There is only so much nat that we're gonna get away with. What are the benefits of a routed network? More control and better customer isolation. This is only one of the benefits. Scalability especially in a wireless network is a benefit. Alvarion offering VLAN will provide some of the scalability and other benefits that routing will offer. If you think that VLANs are a scalable solution, look over the networks owned by the tier 1 providers and see what they are using...routed with BGP. With the new ap's that block client to client isolation, with vlan switches, bandwidth controlling cpe (or other solutions) and features like what Patrick is talking about routing is becoming less and less critical every day. No...it's becoming less and less used toward the customer because more and more people are getting into the business of providing internet service without understanding HOW or WHY their network would function better if it were not bridged. You can argue that point if you want, but I have moved more networks from bridged to routed with positive results than the other way around. (there is one notable exception, but I think those results are a bit skewed for other reasons.) Is bridging easier? Yes. Is it common? Among smaller providers, yes. Is is scalable? Only if you use some other technology (such as vlan) to create the separation between the endpoints. As I said, even with VLANs, there is a limit to the scale the network can reach without some routing. solution. They vlan customers into a single port to the isp. Basically frame a fancy switch, almost frame relay. No routing used at all. We don't even have a good option for routing at the You don't think their networks are routed? Look at your border router...the public interface is going to have a /30 address...your range of public IP space is routed via that /30 address. You are incorrect in your assumption that there is no routing used at all. On the client side that's not correct. We have ONE vlan port. ALL of our fiber customers connect right in to that vlan. That vlan hits a switch on our network, right beside one of the main wireless links. No routing till it hits the customer's site. customer other than doing it just because. It's certainly not a requirement. No...not a requirement. It's just a more scalable solution. There are nearly 4000 (unfortunately not all mine :-) 100meg customers on that network. Maybe if you are a HUGE isp but certainly not for a few hundreds subs. Hundreds of subs it's still a maybe. And with thousands I'd disagree here, too. But, I've only been an ISP since 1993, so what do I know... Grin. The technology included in the VL line makes it easier to build a network that can be run by less technical staff. There is a cost savings there too. It is true that the VL line of products offer some real options. VLANs are a GOOD tool, and having this option DOES offer some cool upsale possibilities. But, VLANs are not intended to be a replacement for a routed network. I've been in this business for a long time. I've built several networks to fairly large scale, including more than one to over 1000 customer base. One that I am now managing has over 3000 subs. That network is using VLANs to provide some services. It is using other technologies as well, but the network is routed. You can't scale a bridged network. It's just that simple. As I said in another post...you don't have to believe that, others don't have to do it, but it IS the best practice. I'm just saying that it's far less important than it used to be. Shoot, you know my network. I've even gone so far as to split it into two halves with different upstreams. And what did the average customer see when that happened? Nothing. Well the ones in Odessa got 10 megs of service to the ap rather than 1.5, but other than that, no noticable change. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Hello Marlon, How do you figure a residential client (or any client for that matter) ties up three IPs? I can see four IPs (/30) or simply one IP out of a larger subnet dedicated to the sector. We typically assign a /29, /28 or /27 to a Trango 60* sector and assign one public IP to each CPE router. The radios get private space to conserve public IP space as well as increase security. IMO, each client deserves one public IP for a variety of reasons. Two come quickly to mind. First, if a client becomes infected with a SPAM virus he'll only get himself blacklisted and not a bunch of clients that happen to also be NAT'd behind the same IP address. Second, even a basic cable modem client gets one public IP address. No reason to give the cable guy a leg up over your service over one IP! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 10:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Yeah, the waters in the routed vs. bridged argument are getting more and more muddied all of the time. How many wasted ip's are there in a routed network? Lots. This is a big misconception. I don't have time to go into it here, but the truth of the matter is that what you are calling wasted is better described as a cost in exchange for a benefit. It's a very high cost. Why does every residential user need to tie up 3 ip addys? How long can we keep handing them out like that before we run into trouble again? There is only so much nat that we're gonna get away with. What are the benefits of a routed network? More control and better customer isolation. This is only one of the benefits. Scalability especially in a wireless network is a benefit. Alvarion offering VLAN will provide some of the scalability and other benefits that routing will offer. If you think that VLANs are a scalable solution, look over the networks owned by the tier 1 providers and see what they are using...routed with BGP. With the new ap's that block client to client isolation, with vlan switches, bandwidth controlling cpe (or other solutions) and features like what Patrick is talking about routing is becoming less and less critical every day. No...it's becoming less and less used toward the customer because more and more people are getting into the business of providing internet service without understanding HOW or WHY their network would function better if it were not bridged. You can argue that point if you want, but I have moved more networks from bridged to routed with positive results than the other way around. (there is one notable exception, but I think those results are a bit skewed for other reasons.) Is bridging easier? Yes. Is it common? Among smaller providers, yes. Is is scalable? Only if you use some other technology (such as vlan) to create the separation between the endpoints. As I said, even with VLANs, there is a limit to the scale the network can reach without some routing. solution. They vlan customers into a single port to the isp. Basically frame a fancy switch, almost frame relay. No routing used at all. We don't even have a good option for routing at the You don't think their networks are routed? Look at your border router...the public interface is going to have a /30 address...your range of public IP space is routed via that /30 address. You are incorrect in your assumption that there is no routing used at all. On the client side that's not correct. We have ONE vlan port. ALL of our fiber customers connect right in to that vlan. That vlan hits a switch on our network, right beside one of the main wireless links. No routing till it hits the customer's site. customer other than doing it just because. It's certainly not a requirement. No...not a requirement. It's just a more scalable solution. There are nearly 4000 (unfortunately not all mine :-) 100meg customers on that network. Maybe if you are a HUGE isp but certainly not for a few hundreds subs. Hundreds of subs it's still a maybe. And with thousands I'd disagree here, too. But, I've only been an ISP since 1993, so what do I know... Grin. The technology included in the VL line makes it easier to build a network that can be run by less technical staff. There is a cost savings there too. It is true that the VL line of products offer some real options. VLANs are a GOOD tool, and having this option DOES offer some cool upsale possibilities. But, VLANs are not intended to be a replacement for a routed network. I've been in this business for a long time. I've built several
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
In a lab yes. In my noise floor, real throughout is no where close to that. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:57 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients SR9 on WAR at 5MHz is about 6Mb Tom DeReggi wrote: We are finding that for most of the OEM 900 product though, best case speed gets close to 1mbps on a 5mhz channel. So Trango, is still our dominent choice, from towers,m where we do not need the flexibility and low cost of relaying. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
First, we were talking 900 not 5.8. VL isn't going to go through 2 miles of trees. But your math is not wrong. Anywhere one anticipates that they can get 25 subecribers from a cell site, VL is likely the preferred choice. The problem is that there are many areas where 25 clients off an AP will never be an option. Most places that we install StarOS, have no more than 3 CPEs running off them. Sometimes even only 1. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Joe Laura [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:27 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients It is a fair question and what I would say is that the AU is an even more critical point in the network. Our AUs have options to be inserted into chassis with redundant power supplies, etc. The difference in cost of the AU is minimal when working out the entire cost of the sector and its clients, especially when working in the OPEX issues. For example, OPEX aside, let's say you are in the AlvarionCOMNET program and buy at the minimum level of 25 CPE, which would get you a $285/CPE cost with free shipping. Let's assume all 25 of those attach to a VL sector. In that case the sector will cost you about $1900 plus $285 x 25, or $9,025. The equivalent size network at Mikrotik with the prices in this thread would be $348 x 25 + the $500 AU or $9,200 + shipping. So, not even counting the OPEX issues, reduced truck roll, and shipping we are $175 cheaper. Then add in the 1 year free warranty, domestic support, FCC legality, and higher equity value of the network. Let's not forget no user license fees, no fee for new software upgrades. Is my math wrong? The business equation seems simple unless I am seriously missing something. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Laura Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:52 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients But is your A/P under $500.00 like the RB532 and SR9? K, Im just kidding. Its Friday. Superior Wireless New Orleans,La. www.superior1.com - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:20 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal. (donning flame suit now) - Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Exactly, after you add the rootenna, you are at $348, plus International Shipping charges (if in US). Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients http://www.star-v3.com/store/ $262 ea in ten packs + roo. Rick Smith wrote: Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ? What kind of pricing per CPE I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for a rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112 Anyone see anything different ? R -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Frank at Pasadena Networks has stock and good pricing on the SR9s. And yes we are paying $350-$389 for the gear based on quantity. Which is still the lowest cost 900SU solution so far, every thing included. I don't believe anybody has broke the $300 barrier except on large quantity. If they have on less than Qty10 orders, I'd like to know about it to. The good news, is there has never been better 900 competition to drive the price down. Teletronics is comming out with their new 900 product in just a few weeks. But pricing has not been released yet. I'm really eagerly waiting to see what's delivered, since they are only 5 miles away from me, and buying from them would be like having my own local warehouse :-) Tranzeo, has a very strong product as well that has been shipping. I heard there is a lot of politics behind the Tranzeo product that came out, but regardless they offer a feature rich unit, all in one package. Allowing consolidation of all the shipping costs to one vendor, instead of from all the different vendors necessary to get a unit made. I'm finding it rare that one vendor has stock of all the needed components at the same time, at the right price. Trango and Canopy are going neck and neck on their CPE to drive the price down. But they are still more than I'd like to see on small quantity. WaveIP, AirSpan, WaveRider, and there is one or two more that I'm missing. I guess what I'm saying is its getting to be an exciting time for 900Mhz options. And I'm hoping this competitive pressure will get 900 down to the price it needs to be to tackle served residential neighborhoods, like the 5.8Ghz has. We are finding that for most of the OEM 900 product though, best case speed gets close to 1mbps on a 5mhz channel. So Trango, is still our dominent choice, from towers,m where we do not need the flexibility and low cost of relaying. My understanding is that the Tranzeo's are dual Ethernet ready to POE feed your Trango backhaul, with no customization of cases. But we have not tried it yet. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Rick Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 11:52 AM Subject: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ? What kind of pricing per CPE I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for a rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112 Anyone see anything different ? R -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Exactly, after you add the rootenna, you are at $348, plus International Shipping charges (if in US). Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients http://www.star-v3.com/store/ $262 ea in ten packs + roo. Rick Smith wrote: Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ? What kind of pricing per CPE I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for a rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112 Anyone see anything different ? R -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal. (donning flame suit now) - Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Exactly, after you add the rootenna, you are at $348, plus International Shipping charges (if in US). Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients http://www.star-v3.com/store/ $262 ea in ten packs + roo. Rick Smith wrote: Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ? What kind of pricing per CPE I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for a rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112 Anyone see anything different ? R -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
But is your A/P under $500.00 like the RB532 and SR9? K, Im just kidding. Its Friday. Superior Wireless New Orleans,La. www.superior1.com - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:20 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal. (donning flame suit now) - Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Exactly, after you add the rootenna, you are at $348, plus International Shipping charges (if in US). Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients http://www.star-v3.com/store/ $262 ea in ten packs + roo. Rick Smith wrote: Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ? What kind of pricing per CPE I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for a rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112 Anyone see anything different ? R -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
SR9 on WAR at 5MHz is about 6Mb Tom DeReggi wrote: We are finding that for most of the OEM 900 product though, best case speed gets close to 1mbps on a 5mhz channel. So Trango, is still our dominent choice, from towers,m where we do not need the flexibility and low cost of relaying. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Does that BreezeACCESS CPE do 5 mile *NECLoS shots? Usable links that is... Serious question... I don't know. If it does, I will have to re-think how I am doing things John * Not Even Close to Line of Sight... Patrick Leary wrote: Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal. (donning flame suit now) - Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Exactly, after you add the rootenna, you are at $348, plus International Shipping charges (if in US). Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients http://www.star-v3.com/store/ $262 ea in ten packs + roo. Rick Smith wrote: Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ? What kind of pricing per CPE I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for a rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112 Anyone see anything different ? R -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal. This hardly compares to having a router at the CPE. While it is a good price, it is not a fair comparison. (donning flame suit now) 'tis alright, Patrick. No flames here. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
I would be extremely interested in your $250 solution if it didn't have that stupid software governor on it limiting bandwidth. What is it, 3Mb x 2Mb? What's the actual throughput? - cw Patrick Leary wrote: Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal. (donning flame suit now) - Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Exactly, after you add the rootenna, you are at $348, plus International -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
We're installing SR9 clients with a 2.4 antenna on it, and never going in the house except for power. Customers sign onto the *hotspotted* 2.4 antenna, and if their neighbors want to sign on as well, so be it. Can't do that with Alvarion. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:21 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal. (donning flame suit now) - Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Exactly, after you add the rootenna, you are at $348, plus International Shipping charges (if in US). Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients http://www.star-v3.com/store/ $262 ea in ten packs + roo. Rick Smith wrote: Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ? What kind of pricing per CPE I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for a rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112 Anyone see anything different ? R -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
It is a fair question and what I would say is that the AU is an even more critical point in the network. Our AUs have options to be inserted into chassis with redundant power supplies, etc. The difference in cost of the AU is minimal when working out the entire cost of the sector and its clients, especially when working in the OPEX issues. For example, OPEX aside, let's say you are in the AlvarionCOMNET program and buy at the minimum level of 25 CPE, which would get you a $285/CPE cost with free shipping. Let's assume all 25 of those attach to a VL sector. In that case the sector will cost you about $1900 plus $285 x 25, or $9,025. The equivalent size network at Mikrotik with the prices in this thread would be $348 x 25 + the $500 AU or $9,200 + shipping. So, not even counting the OPEX issues, reduced truck roll, and shipping we are $175 cheaper. Then add in the 1 year free warranty, domestic support, FCC legality, and higher equity value of the network. Let's not forget no user license fees, no fee for new software upgrades. Is my math wrong? The business equation seems simple unless I am seriously missing something. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Laura Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:52 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients But is your A/P under $500.00 like the RB532 and SR9? K, Im just kidding. Its Friday. Superior Wireless New Orleans,La. www.superior1.com - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:20 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal. (donning flame suit now) - Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Exactly, after you add the rootenna, you are at $348, plus International Shipping charges (if in US). Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients http://www.star-v3.com/store/ $262 ea in ten packs + roo. Rick Smith wrote: Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ? What kind of pricing per CPE I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for a rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112 Anyone see anything different ? R -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
There's no license fees if you're buying routerboards for Mikrotik. Also, add 2.4 cards (SR2) and cabling / antenna at each client, and you've now built a mesh, so to speak, with coverage off each customer to new customers. Those setups add about $200 here and there when you do the repeaters. But again, Alvarion can't touch $500 for 900 CPE and 2.4 AP all on one POE cable. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:27 PM To: Joe Laura; WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients It is a fair question and what I would say is that the AU is an even more critical point in the network. Our AUs have options to be inserted into chassis with redundant power supplies, etc. The difference in cost of the AU is minimal when working out the entire cost of the sector and its clients, especially when working in the OPEX issues. For example, OPEX aside, let's say you are in the AlvarionCOMNET program and buy at the minimum level of 25 CPE, which would get you a $285/CPE cost with free shipping. Let's assume all 25 of those attach to a VL sector. In that case the sector will cost you about $1900 plus $285 x 25, or $9,025. The equivalent size network at Mikrotik with the prices in this thread would be $348 x 25 + the $500 AU or $9,200 + shipping. So, not even counting the OPEX issues, reduced truck roll, and shipping we are $175 cheaper. Then add in the 1 year free warranty, domestic support, FCC legality, and higher equity value of the network. Let's not forget no user license fees, no fee for new software upgrades. Is my math wrong? The business equation seems simple unless I am seriously missing something. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Laura Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:52 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients But is your A/P under $500.00 like the RB532 and SR9? K, Im just kidding. Its Friday. Superior Wireless New Orleans,La. www.superior1.com - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:20 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal. (donning flame suit now) - Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Exactly, after you add the rootenna, you are at $348, plus International Shipping charges (if in US). Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients http://www.star-v3.com/store/ $262 ea in ten packs + roo. Rick Smith wrote: Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ? What kind of pricing per CPE I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for a rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112 Anyone see anything different ? R -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
The AlvarionCOMNET CPE does 3mbps net and 2mbps up. It can be upgraded via software if needed, but you only would do that once you have a client willing to pay for the additional capacity. You can take it to 6mbps down and 4mbps up or to the full CPE that can deliver over 30mbps net. I appreciate the not liking the limiting thing, but this is about enabling a pay as you need model that makes residential a reality with premium quality 5GHz gear that can take you as upstream as you could want in terms of services, network value, OPEX benefits (ask guys like Marty Dougherty about the real dollar OPEX benefits, he was a big 802.11b user, then a big Trango user before switching to BreezeACCESS VL). In any event, even Mikrotik charges licenses for user counts and the hardware is no different either, right? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of cw Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients I would be extremely interested in your $250 solution if it didn't have that stupid software governor on it limiting bandwidth. What is it, 3Mb x 2Mb? What's the actual throughput? - cw Patrick Leary wrote: Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal. (donning flame suit now) - Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Exactly, after you add the rootenna, you are at $348, plus International -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
As a matter of fact you could and it's something we've had for years and it is a warranted item. That's be a CX deployment using VLDS.11. The range of that DS.11 would probably cover the whole neighborhood (high power and very high sensitivity), but the issue would be the ability of the users laptops to connect reach up to the DS.11 AP. Also, such a model would not be cheap enough to do at every house (but why do you want to put an AP at every house?). We actually just released a new CX that can mate together any set of frequencies we sell in unlicensed. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Smith Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:20 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients We're installing SR9 clients with a 2.4 antenna on it, and never going in the house except for power. Customers sign onto the *hotspotted* 2.4 antenna, and if their neighbors want to sign on as well, so be it. Can't do that with Alvarion. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:21 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal. (donning flame suit now) - Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Exactly, after you add the rootenna, you are at $348, plus International Shipping charges (if in US). Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients http://www.star-v3.com/store/ $262 ea in ten packs + roo. Rick Smith wrote: Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ? What kind of pricing per CPE I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for a rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112 Anyone see anything different ? R -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
It is interesting Rick and creative, but with all due respect, you are not building a network that you are going to be able to sell most likely or at least certainly not for a good price. As well, you can't offer advanced services if you want to grow into them. Rick, it is a serious question: what is your path for growth and/or path to have a satisfactory exit? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Smith Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:35 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients There's no license fees if you're buying routerboards for Mikrotik. Also, add 2.4 cards (SR2) and cabling / antenna at each client, and you've now built a mesh, so to speak, with coverage off each customer to new customers. Those setups add about $200 here and there when you do the repeaters. But again, Alvarion can't touch $500 for 900 CPE and 2.4 AP all on one POE cable. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:27 PM To: Joe Laura; WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients It is a fair question and what I would say is that the AU is an even more critical point in the network. Our AUs have options to be inserted into chassis with redundant power supplies, etc. The difference in cost of the AU is minimal when working out the entire cost of the sector and its clients, especially when working in the OPEX issues. For example, OPEX aside, let's say you are in the AlvarionCOMNET program and buy at the minimum level of 25 CPE, which would get you a $285/CPE cost with free shipping. Let's assume all 25 of those attach to a VL sector. In that case the sector will cost you about $1900 plus $285 x 25, or $9,025. The equivalent size network at Mikrotik with the prices in this thread would be $348 x 25 + the $500 AU or $9,200 + shipping. So, not even counting the OPEX issues, reduced truck roll, and shipping we are $175 cheaper. Then add in the 1 year free warranty, domestic support, FCC legality, and higher equity value of the network. Let's not forget no user license fees, no fee for new software upgrades. Is my math wrong? The business equation seems simple unless I am seriously missing something. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Laura Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 5:52 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients But is your A/P under $500.00 like the RB532 and SR9? K, Im just kidding. Its Friday. Superior Wireless New Orleans,La. www.superior1.com - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:20 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Dang, that's as much as $100 more than a real BreezeACCESS CPE (under the AlvarionCOMNET program) without needing to piece things together so the points of failure risk and truck roll is both much smaller, not to mention a warranty and domestic supply and support. VL CPE comes with mounting hardware too and the cable. Our stuff is also all fully FCC legal. (donning flame suit now) - Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Exactly, after you add the rootenna, you are at $348, plus International Shipping charges (if in US). Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: cw [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients http://www.star-v3.com/store/ $262 ea in ten packs + roo. Rick Smith wrote: Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ? What kind of pricing per CPE I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for a rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112 Anyone see anything different ? R -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: reduced truck roll, Where are you getting this? I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this list. I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router. SO, we would add another $25ish to the cost of your CPE. At this point, the price is exactly the same (or very close). NOW, let's talk about upsell capability. With the Alvarion solution (including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how much? I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd have to change the cost of the router from a $25 router to (at least) a $100 router. If I am able to hit one customer in an area, but the others have obscured LOS, I would have to build another AP somewhere, where with MT, I could just add an $80 (including antenna) upgrade to their router and offer service off that new AP. I can offer real options for firewall, vpn, qos from their ethernet port all the way to my network edge. Did I miss anything? Perhaps there are other options that Alvarion has that I missed. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Why can't I sell what I've built ?Because it doesn't brag on the Alvarion name ? Please. As for growth path, I've got rooftop leases for these repeaters. They're legally guaranteed for 30 yrs in most cases. Sheesh, in some cases, the houses will fall down before the equipment dies. I noticed that you pointed out the CX-BA-2.4-900 stuff. That's all fine and good. Oranges to Oranges, its WA more expensive to use Alvarion, and by $1000's. CX 2.4/900 repeater is like $2,000 or more. Same functionality with Mikrotik and Ubiquiti is around $500. So, the way I see it, I can put 4 repeaters up, and cover 4 times the area that I can with one CX repeater. AND, my tower side cost me $2,000 less as well! So, $5,000 spent = 1 customer and repeater with tower side on Alvarion, or 9 customers with repeaters and tower side with Mikrotik / Ubiquiti, AND I've got 9 repeaters out there touching a ton more customers. With Mikrotik, I've got firewalling / vpn / qos / bandwidth metering / HOTSPOT / OSPF / WDS / and a routed network all the way to each customer, OR a bridged network if I should so choose. Why would I have any less a path for growth or satisfactory exit in putting together Mikrotik solutions as opposed to Alvarion ? Cost of implementation's cheaper. Cost of replacement's cheaper. Cost of value added services are cheaper, AND implemented with only a phone call from the customer or even a hotspot implementation. Future bandwidth's just there - no manufacturer throttling to pay to upgrade like Alvarion Mikrotik doesn't tell me what I can't do - they put it all there and let you decide. No unlock extortion. Actually, I just sold a chunk of my Pennsylvania network, that was still in a build-up phase, with tower sites installed and a couple customers, for some cash that's going to run the rest of my network for a while. Whole thing was built on Canopy and Mikrotik tower sides and cpe's. Ya know, there IS one product I'll use religiously from Alvarion and it's the 2.4 DS11 backhaul units. Rock solid, decently priced (on the used market) and it's truly install-and-forget-it's-there stuff. I just don't see the financial advantage to spending anything else on Alvarion gear though. Especially when I've got high speed backhauls, short and long distance backhauls, multiple frequency ranges, including licensed and public safety, LOS, NLOS and hotspot / billing / etc all built into one platform that doesn't cost a ton of money, and there's a lot of good support for. I don't see how that's bad business. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients It is interesting Rick and creative, but with all due respect, you are not building a network that you are going to be able to sell most likely or at least certainly not for a good price. As well, you can't offer advanced services if you want to grow into them. Rick, it is a serious question: what is your path for growth and/or path to have a satisfactory exit? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Smith Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:35 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients There's no license fees if you're buying routerboards for Mikrotik. Also, add 2.4 cards (SR2) and cabling / antenna at each client, and you've now built a mesh, so to speak, with coverage off each customer to new customers. Those setups add about $200 here and there when you do the repeaters. But again, Alvarion can't touch $500 for 900 CPE and 2.4 AP all on one POE cable. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:27 PM To: Joe Laura; WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients It is a fair question and what I would say is that the AU is an even more critical point in the network. Our AUs have options to be inserted into chassis with redundant power supplies, etc. The difference in cost of the AU is minimal when working out the entire cost of the sector and its clients, especially when working in the OPEX issues. For example, OPEX aside, let's say you are in the AlvarionCOMNET program and buy at the minimum level of 25 CPE, which would get you a $285/CPE cost with free shipping. Let's assume all 25 of those attach to a VL sector. In that case the sector will cost you about $1900 plus $285 x 25, or $9,025. The equivalent size network at Mikrotik with the prices in this thread would be $348 x 25 + the $500 AU or $9,200 + shipping. So, not even counting the OPEX issues, reduced truck roll, and shipping we are $175 cheaper. Then add in the 1 year free warranty
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work we have our own router. VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 802.1q. It does layer 2 802.1p. Layer 3 prioritization with IP TOS (RFC791) and DSCP (RFC2474). And layer 4 with UDP/TCP port range. And we can deliver real VoIP QoS with a MOS of 4.0 and better using our proprietary WLP (wireless link prioritization) protocol. (And that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.) Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:24 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: reduced truck roll, Where are you getting this? I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this list. I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router. SO, we would add another $25ish to the cost of your CPE. At this point, the price is exactly the same (or very close). NOW, let's talk about upsell capability. With the Alvarion solution (including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how much? I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd have to change the cost of the router from a $25 router to (at least) a $100 router. If I am able to hit one customer in an area, but the others have obscured LOS, I would have to build another AP somewhere, where with MT, I could just add an $80 (including antenna) upgrade to their router and offer service off that new AP. I can offer real options for firewall, vpn, qos from their ethernet port all the way to my network edge. Did I miss anything? Perhaps there are other options that Alvarion has that I missed. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.) Regards, Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Smith Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:19 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Why can't I sell what I've built ?Because it doesn't brag on the Alvarion name ? Please. As for growth path, I've got rooftop leases for these repeaters. They're legally guaranteed for 30 yrs in most cases. Sheesh, in some cases, the houses will fall down before the equipment dies. I noticed that you pointed out the CX-BA-2.4-900 stuff. That's all fine and good. Oranges to Oranges, its WA more expensive to use Alvarion, and by $1000's. CX 2.4/900 repeater is like $2,000 or more. Same functionality with Mikrotik and Ubiquiti is around $500. So, the way I see it, I can put 4 repeaters up, and cover 4 times the area that I can with one CX repeater. AND, my tower side cost me $2,000 less as well! So, $5,000 spent = 1 customer and repeater with tower side on Alvarion, or 9 customers with repeaters and tower side with Mikrotik / Ubiquiti, AND I've got 9 repeaters out there touching a ton more customers. With Mikrotik, I've got firewalling / vpn / qos / bandwidth metering / HOTSPOT / OSPF / WDS / and a routed network all the way to each customer, OR a bridged network if I should so choose. Why would I have any less a path for growth or satisfactory exit in putting together Mikrotik solutions as opposed to Alvarion ? Cost of implementation's cheaper. Cost of replacement's cheaper. Cost of value added services are cheaper, AND implemented with only a phone call from the customer or even a hotspot implementation. Future bandwidth's just there - no manufacturer throttling to pay to upgrade like Alvarion Mikrotik doesn't tell me what I can't do - they put it all there and let you decide. No unlock extortion. Actually, I just sold a chunk of my Pennsylvania network, that was still in a build-up phase, with tower sites installed and a couple customers, for some cash that's going to run the rest of my network for a while. Whole thing was built on Canopy and Mikrotik tower sides and cpe's. Ya know, there IS one product I'll use religiously from Alvarion and it's the 2.4 DS11 backhaul units. Rock solid, decently priced (on the used market) and it's truly install-and-forget-it's-there stuff. I just don't see the financial advantage to spending anything else on Alvarion gear though. Especially when I've got high speed backhauls, short and long distance backhauls, multiple frequency ranges, including licensed and public safety, LOS, NLOS and hotspot / billing / etc all built into one platform that doesn't cost a ton of money, and there's a lot of good support for. I don't see how that's bad business. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients It is interesting Rick and creative, but with all due respect, you are not building a network that you are going to be able to sell most likely or at least certainly not for a good price. As well, you can't offer advanced services if you want to grow into them. Rick, it is a serious question: what is your path for growth and/or path to have a satisfactory exit? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Smith Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:35 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients There's no license fees if you're buying routerboards for Mikrotik. Also, add 2.4 cards (SR2) and cabling / antenna at each client, and you've now built a mesh, so to speak, with coverage off each customer to new customers. Those setups add about $200 here and there when you do the repeaters. But again, Alvarion can't touch $500 for 900 CPE and 2.4 AP all on one POE cable. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Why provide routers? To improve the isolation of the user from the network. To filter and control packets at the customer end before they clog up my wireless bandwidth. We run private IP space on our wireless network for the same reasons. We provide anti-virus and anti-spyware software for the same reasons. I'd love to be able to put up $500 cpe's and $5000 AP's But in my area, that would price me out of the market. We Patrick Leary wrote: Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work we have our own router. VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 802.1q. It does layer 2 802.1p. Layer 3 prioritization with IP TOS (RFC791) and DSCP (RFC2474). And layer 4 with UDP/TCP port range. And we can deliver real VoIP QoS with a MOS of 4.0 and better using our proprietary WLP (wireless link prioritization) protocol. (And that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.) Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:24 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: reduced truck roll, Where are you getting this? I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this list. I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router. SO, we would add another $25ish to the cost of your CPE. At this point, the price is exactly the same (or very close). NOW, let's talk about upsell capability. With the Alvarion solution (including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how much? I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd have to change the cost of the router from a $25 router to (at least) a $100 router. If I am able to hit one customer in an area, but the others have obscured LOS, I would have to build another AP somewhere, where with MT, I could just add an $80 (including antenna) upgrade to their router and offer service off that new AP. I can offer real options for firewall, vpn, qos from their ethernet port all the way to my network edge. Did I miss anything? Perhaps there are other options that Alvarion has that I missed. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Equity value is only important to those who wish to build and sell Those of us who just wish to make a living don't care so much about re-sale value. We are more interested in income. Patrick Leary wrote: I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.) Regards, Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Smith Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:19 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Why can't I sell what I've built ?Because it doesn't brag on the Alvarion name ? Please. As for growth path, I've got rooftop leases for these repeaters. They're legally guaranteed for 30 yrs in most cases. Sheesh, in some cases, the houses will fall down before the equipment dies. I noticed that you pointed out the CX-BA-2.4-900 stuff. That's all fine and good. Oranges to Oranges, its WA more expensive to use Alvarion, and by $1000's. CX 2.4/900 repeater is like $2,000 or more. Same functionality with Mikrotik and Ubiquiti is around $500. So, the way I see it, I can put 4 repeaters up, and cover 4 times the area that I can with one CX repeater. AND, my tower side cost me $2,000 less as well! So, $5,000 spent = 1 customer and repeater with tower side on Alvarion, or 9 customers with repeaters and tower side with Mikrotik / Ubiquiti, AND I've got 9 repeaters out there touching a ton more customers. With Mikrotik, I've got firewalling / vpn / qos / bandwidth metering / HOTSPOT / OSPF / WDS / and a routed network all the way to each customer, OR a bridged network if I should so choose. Why would I have any less a path for growth or satisfactory exit in putting together Mikrotik solutions as opposed to Alvarion ? Cost of implementation's cheaper. Cost of replacement's cheaper. Cost of value added services are cheaper, AND implemented with only a phone call from the customer or even a hotspot implementation. Future bandwidth's just there - no manufacturer throttling to pay to upgrade like Alvarion Mikrotik doesn't tell me what I can't do - they put it all there and let you decide. No unlock extortion. Actually, I just sold a chunk of my Pennsylvania network, that was still in a build-up phase, with tower sites installed and a couple customers, for some cash that's going to run the rest of my network for a while. Whole thing was built on Canopy and Mikrotik tower sides and cpe's. Ya know, there IS one product I'll use religiously from Alvarion and it's the 2.4 DS11 backhaul units. Rock solid, decently priced (on the used market) and it's truly install-and-forget-it's-there stuff. I just don't see the financial advantage to spending anything else on Alvarion gear though. Especially when I've got high speed backhauls, short and long distance backhauls, multiple frequency ranges, including licensed and public safety, LOS, NLOS and hotspot / billing / etc all built into one platform that doesn't cost a ton of money, and there's a lot of good support for. I don't see how that's bad business. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients It is interesting Rick and creative, but with all due respect, you are not building a network that you are going to be able to sell most likely or at least certainly not for a good price. As well, you can't offer advanced services if you want to grow into them. Rick, it is a serious question: what is your path for growth and/or path to have a satisfactory exit? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Smith Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:35 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients There's no license fees if you're buying routerboards for Mikrotik. Also, add 2.4 cards (SR2) and cabling / antenna at each client, and you've now built a mesh, so to speak, with coverage off each customer to new customers. Those
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
Patrick, How much are your A/P's going for in the 5.8 range? Superior Wireless New Orleans,La. www.superior1.com - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 12:00 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.) Regards, Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Smith Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:19 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Why can't I sell what I've built ?Because it doesn't brag on the Alvarion name ? Please. As for growth path, I've got rooftop leases for these repeaters. They're legally guaranteed for 30 yrs in most cases. Sheesh, in some cases, the houses will fall down before the equipment dies. I noticed that you pointed out the CX-BA-2.4-900 stuff. That's all fine and good. Oranges to Oranges, its WA more expensive to use Alvarion, and by $1000's. CX 2.4/900 repeater is like $2,000 or more. Same functionality with Mikrotik and Ubiquiti is around $500. So, the way I see it, I can put 4 repeaters up, and cover 4 times the area that I can with one CX repeater. AND, my tower side cost me $2,000 less as well! So, $5,000 spent = 1 customer and repeater with tower side on Alvarion, or 9 customers with repeaters and tower side with Mikrotik / Ubiquiti, AND I've got 9 repeaters out there touching a ton more customers. With Mikrotik, I've got firewalling / vpn / qos / bandwidth metering / HOTSPOT / OSPF / WDS / and a routed network all the way to each customer, OR a bridged network if I should so choose. Why would I have any less a path for growth or satisfactory exit in putting together Mikrotik solutions as opposed to Alvarion ? Cost of implementation's cheaper. Cost of replacement's cheaper. Cost of value added services are cheaper, AND implemented with only a phone call from the customer or even a hotspot implementation. Future bandwidth's just there - no manufacturer throttling to pay to upgrade like Alvarion Mikrotik doesn't tell me what I can't do - they put it all there and let you decide. No unlock extortion. Actually, I just sold a chunk of my Pennsylvania network, that was still in a build-up phase, with tower sites installed and a couple customers, for some cash that's going to run the rest of my network for a while. Whole thing was built on Canopy and Mikrotik tower sides and cpe's. Ya know, there IS one product I'll use religiously from Alvarion and it's the 2.4 DS11 backhaul units. Rock solid, decently priced (on the used market) and it's truly install-and-forget-it's-there stuff. I just don't see the financial advantage to spending anything else on Alvarion gear though. Especially when I've got high speed backhauls, short and long distance backhauls, multiple frequency ranges, including licensed and public safety, LOS, NLOS and hotspot / billing / etc all built into one platform that doesn't cost a ton of money, and there's a lot of good support for. I don't see how that's bad business. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients It is interesting Rick and creative, but with all due respect, you are not building a network that you are going to be able to sell most likely or at least certainly not for a good price. As well, you can't offer advanced services if you want to grow into them. Rick, it is a serious question: what is your path for growth and/or path to have a satisfactory exit? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Smith Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:35 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients There's no license fees if you're buying routerboards for Mikrotik. Also, add 2.4 cards (SR2) and cabling / antenna at each client, and you've
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
You missed the thread though Blair. Our CPEs are as low as $245 complete and only $285 for very low volume (25 a quarter). We have AUs now also for about $2500 MSRP (list price). And we can filter and control packets without a router, including broadcast packet rate limiting. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Blair Davis Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:06 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients Why provide routers? To improve the isolation of the user from the network. To filter and control packets at the customer end before they clog up my wireless bandwidth. We run private IP space on our wireless network for the same reasons. We provide anti-virus and anti-spyware software for the same reasons. I'd love to be able to put up $500 cpe's and $5000 AP's But in my area, that would price me out of the market. We Patrick Leary wrote: Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work we have our own router. VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does 802.1q. It does layer 2 802.1p. Layer 3 prioritization with IP TOS (RFC791) and DSCP (RFC2474). And layer 4 with UDP/TCP port range. And we can deliver real VoIP QoS with a MOS of 4.0 and better using our proprietary WLP (wireless link prioritization) protocol. (And that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.) Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:24 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: reduced truck roll, Where are you getting this? I have been in the ISP business longer than MOST people on this list. I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion equipment, but the fact is, that to use Alvarion gear in any network I would build, you would HAVE to add an addition cost for a router. SO, we would add another $25ish to the cost of your CPE. At this point, the price is exactly the same (or very close). NOW, let's talk about upsell capability. With the Alvarion solution (including a router), I could upgrade the speed, but that costs how much? I could offer a firewall, vpn, qos or other options, but I'd have to change the cost of the router from a $25 router to (at least) a $100 router. If I am able to hit one customer in an area, but the others have obscured LOS, I would have to build another AP somewhere, where with MT, I could just add an $80 (including antenna) upgrade to their router and offer service off that new AP. I can offer real options for firewall, vpn, qos from their ethernet port all the way to my network edge. Did I miss anything? Perhaps there are other options that Alvarion has that I missed. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.) Hi Patrick, What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch a higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell prices? I'd be interested to see it. Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Patrick Leary wrote: Why do you have to have the router? The DSL and cable guys don't provide routers (not without extra fees). I provide my own in my home. At work we have our own router. I provide a router because that is the best network design and it offers ME an upgrade path that is beyond just being a provider of a COMMODITY service (transport). You don't have to agree with it, others don't have to do it, but them's the facts. VL also can do VLAN, all the way to QinQ 802.3ad VLANs. It does SNIPPED LOTA OF NON MARKETING GOOP that's not marketing goop, it's been tested by a tier 1 operator and it blew them away.) Wow. As I said in the first post, I have nothing bad to say about Alvarion gear...(please read the last paragraph) Plus, in the end the thing that I admit really gets me is that some of these products simply are not legal at all and are illegally shipped in from overseas. If we just blatantly flauted the laws we could save tons in RD and legal too. It has always been disappointing that some WISPs simply don't care about that. Especially when at the same time the same WISP might complain that another WISP is over driving a system. This is a problem, but not so much of a problem as you make it out to be. I realize the law is black and white, but the reality is a little more like shades of grey. I'm not supporting anyone breaking the law, but the truth of the matter is that there IS a difference between operating a system that is not certified within legal limits and operating a system that operates outside legal power limits. The primary difference is that one of these (you get to pick) will cause more harm to the usability of the spectrum than the other. On another subject, take another look at the subject line...It's not about Alvarion gear, but you seem to have stepped into the middle of it (once again). I really just wish you'd at least have the courtesy to change the subject line if you are going to change the subject. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
No, at the moment just anecdotal. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dylan Oliver Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 10:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients On 12/2/06, Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I appreciate the honest criticism, really, but the situation about your network being at an equity disadvantage is very real. You CAN sell it, but you won't find many eager buyers and you won't get a good price. An Alvarion network does bring a higher value. I'm sure Moto networks may fetch an okay price (not as high as an Alvarion network). But, and this is the reality, an 802.11b network has a much lower equity value. An 802.11 network using illegal gear will have an even worse value. That's just reality and I will try to get validation from one or two of the roll-up guys I know and I'll ask if I can quote him. ...(I've placed him in the bcc, hopefully he is around this weekend to extend his opinion.) Hi Patrick, What basis do you have for the claim that an Alvarion network will fetch a higher price than a Canopy network? Some analysis of historical sell prices? I'd be interested to see it. Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
On Thu, 30 Nov 2006, Rick Smith wrote: Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ? What kind of pricing per CPE I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for a rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112 Anyone see anything different ? While I am not purchasing these today (being that I am no longer an ISP), I can't tell you where you can purchase them, but I'd expect $300-400 for a complete system. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 900 Mhz Mikrotik SR9 Clients
http://www.star-v3.com/store/ $262 ea in ten packs + roo. Rick Smith wrote: Where are people buying their SR9 client setups, if at all ? What kind of pricing per CPE I'm looking at a couple places, and coming back with like $350 each for a rootenna / cable / SR9 / P.S. and RB112 Anyone see anything different ? R -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
