Re: [WISPA] Advertising IP space for Business Customers
It's just a slightly different configuration and usually carriers either don't charge or charge something minimal like $50/mth or a setup fee. Regards, Chuck On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Bobby Burrow brbur...@gmail.com wrote: What is the general consensus in regards to advertising AS number space for business/non-profit client that has their own allocation of space from ARIN? Let's say the customer has service from you as a backup and wants to transition to you as a primary and continue to use their own IP space. I am looking in to the feasibility of meeting this request and what, if any, fees to quote to the customer. Any advice would be appreciated. Bobby ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Advertising IP space for Business Customers
We typically do it for free as people who request this type of service typically spend more then your $60/month type client. Carlos Alcantar Race Communications / Race Team Member 1325 Howard Ave. #604, Burlingame, CA. 94010 Phone: +1 415 376 3314 / car...@race.com / http://www.race.com From: Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.commailto:ch...@shelbybb.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Date: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 8:38 AM To: bo...@burrow.commailto:bo...@burrow.com bo...@burrow.commailto:bo...@burrow.com, WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Advertising IP space for Business Customers It's just a slightly different configuration and usually carriers either don't charge or charge something minimal like $50/mth or a setup fee. Regards, Chuck On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Bobby Burrow brbur...@gmail.commailto:brbur...@gmail.com wrote: What is the general consensus in regards to advertising AS number space for business/non-profit client that has their own allocation of space from ARIN? Let's say the customer has service from you as a backup and wants to transition to you as a primary and continue to use their own IP space. I am looking in to the feasibility of meeting this request and what, if any, fees to quote to the customer. Any advice would be appreciated. Bobby ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.orgmailto:Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Advertising ARIN IPs via BGP
This is the way it looked to me, too. I just asked the guy at Windstream who is dealing with it. He said... Windstream has two Tier 1 providers, Level 3 and AT T . This allows us to have two separate drains to the internet backbone. These two providers have two separate processes for setting up the BGP sessions. The level 3 has been completed and we are still waiting on the AT T piece to be completed. That just seems really odd to me. Surely they peer with dozens of big providers? Do I know nothing about the way BGP works? (which is quite possible). http://bgp.he.net/AS7029#_graph4 Also, we have an ATT circuit, running BGP. Surely anything going to ATT's AS# would come in via our ATT circuit anyway. So how does Windstream advertising our block out via ATT help bring traffic in via our Windstream circuit? And by the way, our old IP blocks which were handed to us by ATT, are working fine and the majority of traffic is coming in via windstream to those. So whatever they are doing apparently works. Just seems really strange. On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Andrew W. Smith andrew.sm...@corp.airmail.net wrote: This should have nothing to do with ATT. It sounds like Windstream has incorrectly assumed that you are trying to announce something owned/controlled by ATT, or did you also ask them to allow your ATT /24s through as well? If so, you might be able to get them to allow the ARIN /21 before processing the ATT /24s. Perhaps forwarding them the results of an ARIN whois showing you fully in control of that prefix could help? Sorry I couldn't help more than confirming that it doesn't appear that you've set anything up incorrectly with ATT. On 1/26/2012 9:00 PM, Roger Howard wrote: Two months ago, we received a /21 direct allocation of IPv4 addresses from ARIN. We have two geographically diverse upstream providers. One is ATT. The other is Windstream. The Windstream circuit is considerably cheaper per meg, than the ATT circuit. We are wanting to do away with ATT. After receiving the IP allocation, we added it to our BGP configs, and contacted ATT and Windstream to have the block advertised out to the Internet. ATT got it dealt with within a few days and traffic to those IPs started flowing in. Windstream we have been fighting with for two+ months to get it done. It's costing us thousands of dollars per month, since we can't do away with the ATT circuit until Windstream bring traffic in via their circuit to these IPs. Windstream say they are awaiting on ATT in order to be able to advertise them. Can anyone explain to me why this could be the case? What does ATT have to do with weather I can advertise an IP block via windstream or not? Thanks, Roger WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Advertising ARIN IPs via BGP
If they are following proper protocols you have to tell your upstream what netblocks you are going to advertise to them, they verify this and write route-maps/filters to allow this through. They then contact their upstream and tell them the same thing. Repeat this up the chain. It's one of the very few protections BGP has. Justin -Original Message- From: Roger Howard g5inter...@gmail.com Reply-To: ro...@g5i.net, WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:56:34 -0600 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Advertising ARIN IPs via BGP This is the way it looked to me, too. I just asked the guy at Windstream who is dealing with it. He said... Windstream has two Tier 1 providers, Level 3 and AT T . This allows us to have two separate drains to the internet backbone. These two providers have two separate processes for setting up the BGP sessions. The level 3 has been completed and we are still waiting on the AT T piece to be completed. That just seems really odd to me. Surely they peer with dozens of big providers? Do I know nothing about the way BGP works? (which is quite possible). http://bgp.he.net/AS7029#_graph4 Also, we have an ATT circuit, running BGP. Surely anything going to ATT's AS# would come in via our ATT circuit anyway. So how does Windstream advertising our block out via ATT help bring traffic in via our Windstream circuit? And by the way, our old IP blocks which were handed to us by ATT, are working fine and the majority of traffic is coming in via windstream to those. So whatever they are doing apparently works. Just seems really strange. On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Andrew W. Smith andrew.sm...@corp.airmail.net wrote: This should have nothing to do with ATT. It sounds like Windstream has incorrectly assumed that you are trying to announce something owned/controlled by ATT, or did you also ask them to allow your ATT /24s through as well? If so, you might be able to get them to allow the ARIN /21 before processing the ATT /24s. Perhaps forwarding them the results of an ARIN whois showing you fully in control of that prefix could help? Sorry I couldn't help more than confirming that it doesn't appear that you've set anything up incorrectly with ATT. On 1/26/2012 9:00 PM, Roger Howard wrote: Two months ago, we received a /21 direct allocation of IPv4 addresses from ARIN. We have two geographically diverse upstream providers. One is ATT. The other is Windstream. The Windstream circuit is considerably cheaper per meg, than the ATT circuit. We are wanting to do away with ATT. After receiving the IP allocation, we added it to our BGP configs, and contacted ATT and Windstream to have the block advertised out to the Internet. ATT got it dealt with within a few days and traffic to those IPs started flowing in. Windstream we have been fighting with for two+ months to get it done. It's costing us thousands of dollars per month, since we can't do away with the ATT circuit until Windstream bring traffic in via their circuit to these IPs. Windstream say they are awaiting on ATT in order to be able to advertise them. Can anyone explain to me why this could be the case? What does ATT have to do with weather I can advertise an IP block via windstream or not? Thanks, Roger WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Advertising ARIN IPs via BGP
This is what stops me from advertising blocks which I don't own. So if I became an ISP for a multi-homed business, and they had their own IPs, I'd have to contact both of my upstreams, Windstream and ATT in order to have them route traffic in to this customer. I think I get that part. But we already have an ATT circuit. ATT are already advertising ALL of our IPs. Surely anything that they advertise is reachable through them is going to come in our ATT circuit? What I don't understand is how does Windstream advertising our IPs to ATT help traffic to come in through Windstream? Surely any traffic that gets to ATT's AS# will come in via our ATT circuit? Since I'm shutting off the ATT circuit anyway, and since these blocks are apparently being advertised now via Level 3, they should be reachable if I stop the BGP advertisements via ATT, right? So perhaps there's no need for me to wait, and I should stop advertising them via BGP to ATT, and go ahead and start re-numbering to the new IPs? On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Justin Wilson li...@mtin.net wrote: If they are following proper protocols you have to tell your upstream what netblocks you are going to advertise to them, they verify this and write route-maps/filters to allow this through. They then contact their upstream and tell them the same thing. Repeat this up the chain. It's one of the very few protections BGP has. Justin -Original Message- From: Roger Howard g5inter...@gmail.com Reply-To: ro...@g5i.net, WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:56:34 -0600 To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Advertising ARIN IPs via BGP This is the way it looked to me, too. I just asked the guy at Windstream who is dealing with it. He said... Windstream has two Tier 1 providers, Level 3 and AT T . This allows us to have two separate drains to the internet backbone. These two providers have two separate processes for setting up the BGP sessions. The level 3 has been completed and we are still waiting on the AT T piece to be completed. That just seems really odd to me. Surely they peer with dozens of big providers? Do I know nothing about the way BGP works? (which is quite possible). http://bgp.he.net/AS7029#_graph4 Also, we have an ATT circuit, running BGP. Surely anything going to ATT's AS# would come in via our ATT circuit anyway. So how does Windstream advertising our block out via ATT help bring traffic in via our Windstream circuit? And by the way, our old IP blocks which were handed to us by ATT, are working fine and the majority of traffic is coming in via windstream to those. So whatever they are doing apparently works. Just seems really strange. On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Andrew W. Smith andrew.sm...@corp.airmail.net wrote: This should have nothing to do with ATT. It sounds like Windstream has incorrectly assumed that you are trying to announce something owned/controlled by ATT, or did you also ask them to allow your ATT /24s through as well? If so, you might be able to get them to allow the ARIN /21 before processing the ATT /24s. Perhaps forwarding them the results of an ARIN whois showing you fully in control of that prefix could help? Sorry I couldn't help more than confirming that it doesn't appear that you've set anything up incorrectly with ATT. On 1/26/2012 9:00 PM, Roger Howard wrote: Two months ago, we received a /21 direct allocation of IPv4 addresses from ARIN. We have two geographically diverse upstream providers. One is ATT. The other is Windstream. The Windstream circuit is considerably cheaper per meg, than the ATT circuit. We are wanting to do away with ATT. After receiving the IP allocation, we added it to our BGP configs, and contacted ATT and Windstream to have the block advertised out to the Internet. ATT got it dealt with within a few days and traffic to those IPs started flowing in. Windstream we have been fighting with for two+ months to get it done. It's costing us thousands of dollars per month, since we can't do away with the ATT circuit until Windstream bring traffic in via their circuit to these IPs. Windstream say they are awaiting on ATT in order to be able to advertise them. Can anyone explain to me why this could be the case? What does ATT have to do with weather I can advertise an IP block via windstream or not? Thanks, Roger WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Advertising ARIN IPs via BGP
It is not necessarily true that all ATT traffic will come in your ATT pipe. There could be multiple AS's appended to the path and shortest will win. I balance my BGP traffic via subnetting, break my /19 up into 32 /24's, and advertise them as I need to through my different upstreams to influence inbound traffic as some of our pipes are different sizes. I also advertise the big route /19 to all providers for fallback in case of individual link failure. Regards Michael Baird - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: ro...@g5i.net, WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 3:17:26 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [WISPA] Advertising ARIN IPs via BGP http://fixedorbit.com/AS/7/AS7029.htm Nope, Level 3 and ATT is all they have. One they complete the migration of Paetec, they'll have a much more substantial network. http://fixedorbit.com/AS/1/AS1785.htm Cogent Verizon Sprint KDDI NTT Level 3 Global Crossing (now Level 3) Time Warner Telecom (nothing to do with Time Warner Cable) NLayer Hurricane ATT - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 1/27/2012 10:56 AM, Roger Howard wrote: This is the way it looked to me, too. I just asked the guy at Windstream who is dealing with it. He said... Windstream has two Tier 1 providers, Level 3 and AT T . This allows us to have two separate drains to the internet backbone. These two providers have two separate processes for setting up the BGP sessions. The level 3 has been completed and we are still waiting on the AT T piece to be completed. That just seems really odd to me. Surely they peer with dozens of big providers? Do I know nothing about the way BGP works? (which is quite possible). http://bgp.he.net/AS7029#_graph4 Also, we have an ATT circuit, running BGP. Surely anything going to ATT's AS# would come in via our ATT circuit anyway. So how does Windstream advertising our block out via ATT help bring traffic in via our Windstream circuit? And by the way, our old IP blocks which were handed to us by ATT, are working fine and the majority of traffic is coming in via windstream to those. So whatever they are doing apparently works. Just seems really strange. On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Andrew W. Smith andrew.sm...@corp.airmail.net wrote: This should have nothing to do with ATT. It sounds like Windstream has incorrectly assumed that you are trying to announce something owned/controlled by ATT, or did you also ask them to allow your ATT /24s through as well? If so, you might be able to get them to allow the ARIN /21 before processing the ATT /24s. Perhaps forwarding them the results of an ARIN whois showing you fully in control of that prefix could help? Sorry I couldn't help more than confirming that it doesn't appear that you've set anything up incorrectly with ATT. On 1/26/2012 9:00 PM, Roger Howard wrote: Two months ago, we received a /21 direct allocation of IPv4 addresses from ARIN. We have two geographically diverse upstream providers. One is ATT. The other is Windstream. The Windstream circuit is considerably cheaper per meg, than the ATT circuit. We are wanting to do away with ATT. After receiving the IP allocation, we added it to our BGP configs, and contacted ATT and Windstream to have the block advertised out to the Internet. ATT got it dealt with within a few days and traffic to those IPs started flowing in. Windstream we have been fighting with for two+ months to get it done. It's costing us thousands of dollars per month, since we can't do away with the ATT circuit until Windstream bring traffic in via their circuit to these IPs. Windstream say they are awaiting on ATT in order to be able to advertise them. Can anyone explain to me why this could be the case? What does ATT have to do with weather I can advertise an IP block via windstream or not? Thanks, Roger WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA
Re: [WISPA] Advertising ARIN IPs via BGP
This is the reason that ATT costs more and Windstream (which I have never heard of until this message) is cheap. You get what you pay for... a company with real tech support and engineers that know what they are doing and get it done, and some other company that doesn't. :) Travis Microserv On 1/26/2012 8:00 PM, Roger Howard wrote: Two months ago, we received a /21 direct allocation of IPv4 addresses from ARIN. We have two geographically diverse upstream providers. One is ATT. The other is Windstream. The Windstream circuit is considerably cheaper per meg, than the ATT circuit. We are wanting to do away with ATT. After receiving the IP allocation, we added it to our BGP configs, and contacted ATT and Windstream to have the block advertised out to the Internet. ATT got it dealt with within a few days and traffic to those IPs started flowing in. Windstream we have been fighting with for two+ months to get it done. It's costing us thousands of dollars per month, since we can't do away with the ATT circuit until Windstream bring traffic in via their circuit to these IPs. Windstream say they are awaiting on ATT in order to be able to advertise them. Can anyone explain to me why this could be the case? What does ATT have to do with weather I can advertise an IP block via windstream or not? Thanks, Roger WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Advertising ARIN IPs via BGP
At 1/26/2012 10:22 PM, Travis wrote: This is the reason that ATT costs more and Windstream (which I have never heard of until this message) is cheap. You get what you pay for... a company with real tech support and engineers that know what they are doing and get it done, and some other company that doesn't. :) Windstream's a huge operation, but they have grown so fast, purely by acquisition, that they may be over their heads. Windstream is basically a rural ILEC chain, the former Alltel's wireline side, when the wireless side was split off (and kept the Alltel name until VZW bought them). They've also acquired, along the way, Valor (some ex-GTE properties in the Southwest), Alliant (Lincoln Tel), VZ's ex-GTE properties in Kentucky and elsewhere, Iowa Tel, and probably some smaller pieces. Then they went on a CLEC binge, picking up KDL, Nuvox, some smaller pieces, and just recently Paetec (itself a roll-up). Most of their business is just dial tone. Some of the subsidiaries had some decent Internet, but it's the exception. And you can imagine what their Operational Support Systems must look like after all of those disjoint acquisitions. But I have no idea why they can't just accept a BGP advertisement. Routing in the telephone world is done via manual intervention. They seem to think that the IP block is like an NPA-NXX code. Weird. On 1/26/2012 8:00 PM, Roger Howard wrote: Two months ago, we received a /21 direct allocation of IPv4 addresses from ARIN. We have two geographically diverse upstream providers. One is ATT. The other is Windstream. The Windstream circuit is considerably cheaper per meg, than the ATT circuit. We are wanting to do away with ATT. After receiving the IP allocation, we added it to our BGP configs, and contacted ATT and Windstream to have the block advertised out to the Internet. ATT got it dealt with within a few days and traffic to those IPs started flowing in. Windstream we have been fighting with for two+ months to get it done. It's costing us thousands of dollars per month, since we can't do away with the ATT circuit until Windstream bring traffic in via their circuit to these IPs. Windstream say they are awaiting on ATT in order to be able to advertise them. Can anyone explain to me why this could be the case? What does ATT have to do with weather I can advertise an IP block via windstream or not? Thanks, Roger -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Advertising ARIN IPs via BGP
You don't get out much, do you? :-p Windstream is a rural ILEC in many parts of the country, but has recently purchased Paetec, KDL\Norlight and I believe some others as well. They are one of the more aggressive aggregators in the past couple years. By some measures, they are one of the top 10 networks in the US. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 1/26/2012 9:22 PM, Travis Johnson wrote: This is the reason that ATT costs more and Windstream (which I have never heard of until this message) is cheap. You get what you pay for... a company with real tech support and engineers that know what they are doing and get it done, and some other company that doesn't. :) Travis Microserv On 1/26/2012 8:00 PM, Roger Howard wrote: Two months ago, we received a /21 direct allocation of IPv4 addresses from ARIN. We have two geographically diverse upstream providers. One is ATT. The other is Windstream. The Windstream circuit is considerably cheaper per meg, than the ATT circuit. We are wanting to do away with ATT. After receiving the IP allocation, we added it to our BGP configs, and contacted ATT and Windstream to have the block advertised out to the Internet. ATT got it dealt with within a few days and traffic to those IPs started flowing in. Windstream we have been fighting with for two+ months to get it done. It's costing us thousands of dollars per month, since we can't do away with the ATT circuit until Windstream bring traffic in via their circuit to these IPs. Windstream say they are awaiting on ATT in order to be able to advertise them. Can anyone explain to me why this could be the case? What does ATT have to do with weather I can advertise an IP block via windstream or not? Thanks, Roger WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Advertising ARIN IPs via BGP
Based on the information on robtex.com [1], windstream us ATT as one of their upstreams. Windstream need to advise all of their upstream providers of any new prefixes which are to be advertised through their network, so there may be some truth to what they are saying although two months is a ridiculously long time to wait and the fact that you had a fast response from ATT for the same request makes the whole thing smell a bit fishy. -Jonesy [1] http://www.robtex.com/as/as7029.html#graph On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:00:37 -0600, Roger Howard g5inter...@gmail.com wrote: Two months ago, we received a /21 direct allocation of IPv4 addresses from ARIN. We have two geographically diverse upstream providers. One is ATT. The other is Windstream. The Windstream circuit is considerably cheaper per meg, than the ATT circuit. We are wanting to do away with ATT. After receiving the IP allocation, we added it to our BGP configs, and contacted ATT and Windstream to have the block advertised out to the Internet. ATT got it dealt with within a few days and traffic to those IPs started flowing in. Windstream we have been fighting with for two+ months to get it done. It's costing us thousands of dollars per month, since we can't do away with the ATT circuit until Windstream bring traffic in via their circuit to these IPs. Windstream say they are awaiting on ATT in order to be able to advertise them. Can anyone explain to me why this could be the case? What does ATT have to do with weather I can advertise an IP block via windstream or not? Thanks, Roger WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Advertising ARIN IPs via BGP
This should have nothing to do with ATT. It sounds like Windstream has incorrectly assumed that you are trying to announce something owned/controlled by ATT, or did you also ask them to allow your ATT /24s through as well? If so, you might be able to get them to allow the ARIN /21 before processing the ATT /24s. Perhaps forwarding them the results of an ARIN whois showing you fully in control of that prefix could help? Sorry I couldn't help more than confirming that it doesn't appear that you've set anything up incorrectly with ATT. On 1/26/2012 9:00 PM, Roger Howard wrote: Two months ago, we received a /21 direct allocation of IPv4 addresses from ARIN. We have two geographically diverse upstream providers. One is ATT. The other is Windstream. The Windstream circuit is considerably cheaper per meg, than the ATT circuit. We are wanting to do away with ATT. After receiving the IP allocation, we added it to our BGP configs, and contacted ATT and Windstream to have the block advertised out to the Internet. ATT got it dealt with within a few days and traffic to those IPs started flowing in. Windstream we have been fighting with for two+ months to get it done. It's costing us thousands of dollars per month, since we can't do away with the ATT circuit until Windstream bring traffic in via their circuit to these IPs. Windstream say they are awaiting on ATT in order to be able to advertise them. Can anyone explain to me why this could be the case? What does ATT have to do with weather I can advertise an IP block via windstream or not? Thanks, Roger WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ attachment: andrew_smith.vcf WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Advertising
I guess if you wanted to push the envelope, you could put a Squid server in your core, do a download of a large file and then repeat. You could then advertise the second rate as up to X Mbps, and it would be technically correct. John Travis Johnson wrote: Marlon, We already did that... with CableOne and with the WiMax competitor... however, a lot of people don't check that before they read the ad in the newspaper that says 4meg wireless for $34.95 and think they are paying too much with our service. Maybe I should start advertising up to 100meg for $39.95 and see how that goes over? :) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I think that the first thing I would do is post a screen capture of a speakeasy test on your web site. Put yours and theirs right there, side by side. Let the proof be in the puddin'. marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Advertising Hi, This issue with ComCast and their p2p connection blocking brings up another issue I would like to discuss... false advertising. I have a competitor that is selling up to 4meg down by 1meg up for $34.95 with free installation and no contract. Another competitor is doing up to 2meg for $39.95... yet, when I purchased their service and did speed tests, the fastest I ever got was 500kbps. At what point is there a false advertising claim to be made against these companies that are advertising service that can NEVER been achieved at any time on their network? I would think if you did speed tests every hour, 24 hours per day for a week and never got within 90% of their claimed speed, there could be a case. The damages would be in customers that are switching from my service to theirs based on their advertising claims. Each customer should be worth at least 12x the monthly revenue based on current market values. Anyone else agree? Or am I way off base here? Travis Microserv ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
Re: [WISPA] Advertising
I used to have a 192k SDSL connection to the Internet. When the price went up to $129 per month, I ended up going to a cable modem that was rated at 6 meg downloads. My wife was very vocal about how much slower the cable modem was. I don't know what they do, but DNS lookups are horrible on the cable networks, thus making connections sluggish. The LATENCY was very noticeable to a nontechnical person. She just knew that web pages came up much faster on a 192k SDSL business grade line as opposed to a 6 meg consumer grade one. John David E. Smith wrote: Tom DeReggi wrote: [ a nice sales pitch ] Cust-Is it faster than DSL or Cable? Sales- The true measure of speed is Latency, and our latency outperforms both Cable and DSL. Thats why you won't see a latency spec in our competitor's advertisements Just out of curiosity, do you have one of your adverts posted somewhere? I'm really interested to see how you make packet latency (which for most bulk traffic is a nearly useless metric of speed as the customer would perceive it) into a selling point. Latency might be relevant for gamers, but otherwise, a couple hundred milliseconds between click and file starts downloading doesn't seem like it would be nearly as relevant as the time between file starts downloading and file is finished downloading, which usually has little to do with latency. (I know, TCP slow-start and so on, but if you start trying to explain THAT to an end-user you've probably gone way over their head.) David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Latency, capacity, speed, and Webster's (was: Re: [WISPA] Advertising)
Tom DeReggi wrote: First off, in true technical theory, it is my opinion, that Latency =speed, Transfer rate = capacity. Latency is the speed in which one packet goes from point A to Point B. Transfer rate is the quantity of packets that can be transfered within a specific time. Therefore the Term Speed is incorrectly used in marketing. While your usage is correct from the perspective of physics, the customer's perception of speed is the relevant one. I suspect most customers would say a service with 10Mbps and 30ms latency to a major backbone is faster than one with 1Mbps but 5ms latency to that same backbone. (I'm assuming some value of normal here. Satellite-grade latency of, say, 2000ms, obviously skews customer perceptions. I don't know where I'd want to put the cutoff, but the exact numbers aren't as important here.) As an aside, most of what I'm doing is purely speculatory from here on in. Anyone know whether any serious academic research has been done on this point? Anyway, I don't want this to turn into anything related to semantics. Let's get back to the good stuff :) MP4 Streaming Video-- only needs 400kbps. VOIP --- only need MAX of 70kbps. Web Browsing, VERY LITTLE, as most images are web optimized. Haven't been to YouTube lately, I take it? :) Between high-bandwidth services like that (and DailyMotion and Google Video and all the other folks doing the same sort of thing), and the dreaded peer-to-peer, and teleconferencing and maybe even telemedicine, and ... My point is that while your numbers above may be sufficient for very casual users, today, those numbers won't hold much longer. I'm not sure they even hold today, honestly. Many residential customers want and expect more bulk bandwidth. I just looked at amazon.com's front page (to borrow one of your examples), and there's about sixty distinct images, plus the page's HTML, and other stuff like JavaScript and CSS imports. If you just cleared out your browser and DNS cache, and had to load that page completely from scratch, it's likely to take ten to fifteen seconds to load. (www.websiteoptimization.com offers a testing tool for that, but they're throwing in ridiculous latency numbers of 200ms per file, cumulative, and apparently never have heard of HTTP pipelining. I don't think I would take their numbers too seriously, but it's a good way to get basic how big is a page data to play with.) The simple amount of bulk data there - amazon's home page including all those graphics adds up to around 300k, though it changes as the whole page is dynamic - is the key in this instance. Doesn't matter if you're plugged straight into amazon.com with a crossover cable in this instance; the perception of slowness comes not from the latency but from the volume of data. eBay's home page isn't much better, and CNN.com's front page, including all scripts and images, is about 250 files and nearly 800K. (For comparison, on a classic 56k dialup, that's probably about three minutes just waiting for the front page to load.) Sure if you are a IT guy -constantly downloading software drivers, or a Designer or Architec -constantly transfering CAD/Layout files, sure Transfer Rate is going to be important to you. In all fairness, I should disclose my bias, it's been argued I'm an IT guy. :) PS. I recognize next generation applications such as HD TV, can easilly justify GB transfer rates to the home. But we aren't in that generation today. I think that generation is much, much closer than you think. David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Advertising
I think that the first thing I would do is post a screen capture of a speakeasy test on your web site. Put yours and theirs right there, side by side. Let the proof be in the puddin'. marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Advertising Hi, This issue with ComCast and their p2p connection blocking brings up another issue I would like to discuss... false advertising. I have a competitor that is selling up to 4meg down by 1meg up for $34.95 with free installation and no contract. Another competitor is doing up to 2meg for $39.95... yet, when I purchased their service and did speed tests, the fastest I ever got was 500kbps. At what point is there a false advertising claim to be made against these companies that are advertising service that can NEVER been achieved at any time on their network? I would think if you did speed tests every hour, 24 hours per day for a week and never got within 90% of their claimed speed, there could be a case. The damages would be in customers that are switching from my service to theirs based on their advertising claims. Each customer should be worth at least 12x the monthly revenue based on current market values. Anyone else agree? Or am I way off base here? Travis Microserv ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Advertising
I have seen many advertisements be sneaky. By this I mean they give real information with the intent to mislead. I take an approach of honesty in my service. If the customer doesn't understand, I will take the time to explain what they are getting. No sneaky phrases or anything. This make it hard to compete though. I have a competitor with 2.4Ghz that says this in his add you connect at 54Mps which is MUCH faster than anyone else around here. OK, we all know he is saying their connection to the tower. I happen to know that their main Internet feed is 2 T1s. Now how messed up is that? I could always launch a comeback with the don't be fooled by misleading information campaign- but I'm still amazed of the lengths that some will go. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 4:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Advertising Hi, This issue with ComCast and their p2p connection blocking brings up another issue I would like to discuss... false advertising. I have a competitor that is selling up to 4meg down by 1meg up for $34.95 with free installation and no contract. Another competitor is doing up to 2meg for $39.95... yet, when I purchased their service and did speed tests, the fastest I ever got was 500kbps. At what point is there a false advertising claim to be made against these companies that are advertising service that can NEVER been achieved at any time on their network? I would think if you did speed tests every hour, 24 hours per day for a week and never got within 90% of their claimed speed, there could be a case. The damages would be in customers that are switching from my service to theirs based on their advertising claims. Each customer should be worth at least 12x the monthly revenue based on current market values. Anyone else agree? Or am I way off base here? Travis Microserv ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Advertising / who you should not have as customers.
I am honest and forward with my customers, to a fault. I tell them when I have issues at towers, with ISPs, with mistakes _I_ have made! It just seems to work better than covering up everything with crazy messed up PR. If they don't like that then they can go somewhere else. They will be back and will be less trouble when they do come back. When I started MY business, I did not want to deal with people that: 1. Can't handle reality. 2. Can't handle the fact that I can't come to the phone because my Jr. Partner wants me to play Barbie with her. (She is 4 and quite demanding) 3. That we run our business out of our house. 4. That my wife occasionally has to put a customer on hold to tell the dog to get off the couch. 5. Want the planet, complete control of my towers and CPE for $45 a month. 6. Don't understand why they can't get 54mbit out of my radios. 7. Are generally rude to me or my spouse. I have let about 3 people go after they have shown that they meet the list above. It has been better for both parties. Me, I get to let them go and my time is used on more valuable customers. Them, they get to tell everyone how good my service was compared to the other guy that won't let them out of the contract like I did. 2 of the 3 people above have already called me and asked if I can hook them up after their 2 year agreement with another WISP/large wireless BB company lets them out of their contract. The best part about being honest? Customers trust you and cut you slack when things are bad. Heck, I just got an email from a potential multi-site customer. He was referred to me by a customer that got one of my maintenance emails the maintenance email was NOT a glowing self review of my services but this potential customer was impressed by my honesty and wants to use me over the telco! I think I need more coffee... ryan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Luke Pack Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 7:36 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Advertising I have seen many advertisements be sneaky. By this I mean they give real information with the intent to mislead. I take an approach of honesty in my service. If the customer doesn't understand, I will take the time to explain what they are getting. No sneaky phrases or anything. This make it hard to compete though. I have a competitor with 2.4Ghz that says this in his add you connect at 54Mps which is MUCH faster than anyone else around here. OK, we all know he is saying their connection to the tower. I happen to know that their main Internet feed is 2 T1s. Now how messed up is that? I could always launch a comeback with the don't be fooled by misleading information campaign- but I'm still amazed of the lengths that some will go. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 4:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Advertising Hi, This issue with ComCast and their p2p connection blocking brings up another issue I would like to discuss... false advertising. I have a competitor that is selling up to 4meg down by 1meg up for $34.95 with free installation and no contract. Another competitor is doing up to 2meg for $39.95... yet, when I purchased their service and did speed tests, the fastest I ever got was 500kbps. At what point is there a false advertising claim to be made against these companies that are advertising service that can NEVER been achieved at any time on their network? I would think if you did speed tests every hour, 24 hours per day for a week and never got within 90% of their claimed speed, there could be a case. The damages would be in customers that are switching from my service to theirs based on their advertising claims. Each customer should be worth at least 12x the monthly revenue based on current market values. Anyone else agree? Or am I way off base here? Travis Microserv ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007
Re: [WISPA] Advertising
Marlon, We already did that... with CableOne and with the WiMax competitor... however, a lot of people don't check that before they read the ad in the newspaper that says 4meg wireless for $34.95 and think they are paying too much with our service. Maybe I should start advertising up to 100meg for $39.95 and see how that goes over? :) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I think that the first thing I would do is post a screen capture of a speakeasy test on your web site. Put yours and theirs right there, side by side. Let the proof be in the puddin'. marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Advertising Hi, This issue with ComCast and their p2p connection blocking brings up another issue I would like to discuss... false advertising. I have a competitor that is selling up to 4meg down by 1meg up for $34.95 with free installation and no contract. Another competitor is doing up to 2meg for $39.95... yet, when I purchased their service and did speed tests, the fastest I ever got was 500kbps. At what point is there a false advertising claim to be made against these companies that are advertising service that can NEVER been achieved at any time on their network? I would think if you did speed tests every hour, 24 hours per day for a week and never got within 90% of their claimed speed, there could be a case. The damages would be in customers that are switching from my service to theirs based on their advertising claims. Each customer should be worth at least 12x the monthly revenue based on current market values. Anyone else agree? Or am I way off base here? Travis Microserv ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Advertising
At 9:36 AM -0500 10/22/07, Luke Pack wrote: I have seen many advertisements be sneaky. By this I mean they give real information with the intent to mislead. I take an approach of honesty in my service. If the customer doesn't understand, I will take the time to explain what they are getting. No sneaky phrases or anything. This make it hard to compete though. I have a competitor with 2.4Ghz that says this in his add you connect at 54Mps which is MUCH faster than anyone else around here. OK, we all know he is saying their connection to the tower. I happen to know that their main Internet feed is 2 T1s. Now how messed up is that? I could always launch a comeback with the don't be fooled by misleading information campaign- but I'm still amazed of the lengths that some will go. Yeah, the guy I mentioned backs his 12 mbps wireless with a dsl line at the POP. Chuck - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 4:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Advertising Hi, This issue with ComCast and their p2p connection blocking brings up another issue I would like to discuss... false advertising. I have a competitor that is selling up to 4meg down by 1meg up for $34.95 with free installation and no contract. Another competitor is doing up to 2meg for $39.95... yet, when I purchased their service and did speed tests, the fastest I ever got was 500kbps. At what point is there a false advertising claim to be made against these companies that are advertising service that can NEVER been achieved at any time on their network? I would think if you did speed tests every hour, 24 hours per day for a week and never got within 90% of their claimed speed, there could be a case. The damages would be in customers that are switching from my service to theirs based on their advertising claims. Each customer should be worth at least 12x the monthly revenue based on current market values. Anyone else agree? Or am I way off base here? Travis Microserv ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- --- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now. ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Advertising
I think there are two seperate issue here, and I may have lsot track which one was being asked about. 1) Customers leaving for services being advertised as faster and cheaper, when the competitors was just lying. 2) Advertising to attract new customers, when competitors are lying. If your service is good... #1 is much easier to solve than #2. But #2, is the harder one. Its your word against the competitor's word, and the customer has a chance of having more, if they try the competitor first. I don't like being the guy that the client comes to after the fact. Its means I loose months of revenue while the client goes through their learning curve. I'm running into this with Cellular Aircards. Atleast once a week, a business turns down my service because I refuse to waive the $250 install fee, and they go with the Aircard, for about a $30/month savings over what I would charge them monthly. Within 2 months, they usually come crawling back, asking to now buy our service, because they need more consistent better speed. What I learned is that I have not built the trust factor yet with them, so they don't believe a word I tell them during the sale process, until they learn it for them selves. What has been helping most, is developing a relationship with the prospects's IT guy. the trusted advisor. I usually find that they were part of the original decission process, that chose the aircard. I can win them all, but if I make that contact with the trusted advisor I can prevent it from happening again, for the next client that that trusted advisor might also advise for. However, I recognize that this may not work for residential, where there is no trusted advisor. But what it brings up is that maybe a different marketing plan is needed? One that sells something other than speed? One that builds trust? For example, Why buy from us... Ask your neighbor... References provided on request... satisfaction guaranteed I'm starting to learn to close sales without ever discussing the speed that is included in the sale. Cust-What speed is it? Sales- Faster than a T1 line, more than most large business use (customer of course does not know what a T1 line is) Cust-Is it faster than DSL or Cable? Sales- The true measure of speed is Latency, and our latency outperforms both Cable and DSL. Thats why you won't see a latency spec in our competitor's advertisements Cust- what plans do you offer and what should I get Sales- I suggest our default plan, it offers excellent value, faster than most ever need, and faster than most websites can deliver content. And the good thing is, if you want it faster down the road, its a phone call, and it can be done in minutes with a simple parameter change. Sales- Lets take another approach... Do you value your time?... Whats really most important? ... We believe its your sanity and peice of mind. Computers can be frustrating some times, and you shouldnt have to be a computer tech to get Broadband... Why not make this easy, and let us just take care of it for you? I can have a tech onsite next Wednesday. Would Wednesday work for you? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Advertising Marlon, We already did that... with CableOne and with the WiMax competitor... however, a lot of people don't check that before they read the ad in the newspaper that says 4meg wireless for $34.95 and think they are paying too much with our service. Maybe I should start advertising up to 100meg for $39.95 and see how that goes over? :) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I think that the first thing I would do is post a screen capture of a speakeasy test on your web site. Put yours and theirs right there, side by side. Let the proof be in the puddin'. marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Advertising Hi, This issue with ComCast and their p2p connection blocking brings up another issue I would like to discuss... false advertising. I have a competitor that is selling up to 4meg down by 1meg up for $34.95 with free installation and no contract. Another competitor is doing up to 2meg for $39.95... yet, when I purchased their service and did speed tests, the fastest I ever got was 500kbps. At what point is there a false advertising claim to be made against these companies that are advertising service that can NEVER been achieved at any time on their network? I would think if you did speed tests every hour, 24 hours per day for a week and never got within 90% of their claimed speed, there could be a case. The damages would be in customers that are switching from my service to theirs based
Re: [WISPA] Advertising
Tom DeReggi wrote: [ a nice sales pitch ] Cust-Is it faster than DSL or Cable? Sales- The true measure of speed is Latency, and our latency outperforms both Cable and DSL. Thats why you won't see a latency spec in our competitor's advertisements Just out of curiosity, do you have one of your adverts posted somewhere? I'm really interested to see how you make packet latency (which for most bulk traffic is a nearly useless metric of speed as the customer would perceive it) into a selling point. Latency might be relevant for gamers, but otherwise, a couple hundred milliseconds between click and file starts downloading doesn't seem like it would be nearly as relevant as the time between file starts downloading and file is finished downloading, which usually has little to do with latency. (I know, TCP slow-start and so on, but if you start trying to explain THAT to an end-user you've probably gone way over their head.) David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Advertising
I lost one city deal a few years ago because a new competitor came into the city council meeting the night I thought I would sign the deal and touted that his customers would get 54 Mbps for $24.99. My challenges went unheard, all the people wanted to hear was that he was faster and cost less than we did. I don't believe that company is still in business and I decided that I wasn't particularly fond of that market anyways. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 12:21 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Advertising At 9:36 AM -0500 10/22/07, Luke Pack wrote: I have seen many advertisements be sneaky. By this I mean they give real information with the intent to mislead. I take an approach of honesty in my service. If the customer doesn't understand, I will take the time to explain what they are getting. No sneaky phrases or anything. This make it hard to compete though. I have a competitor with 2.4Ghz that says this in his add you connect at 54Mps which is MUCH faster than anyone else around here. OK, we all know he is saying their connection to the tower. I happen to know that their main Internet feed is 2 T1s. Now how messed up is that? I could always launch a comeback with the don't be fooled by misleading information campaign- but I'm still amazed of the lengths that some will go. Yeah, the guy I mentioned backs his 12 mbps wireless with a dsl line at the POP. Chuck - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 4:27 PM Subject: [WISPA] Advertising Hi, This issue with ComCast and their p2p connection blocking brings up another issue I would like to discuss... false advertising. I have a competitor that is selling up to 4meg down by 1meg up for $34.95 with free installation and no contract. Another competitor is doing up to 2meg for $39.95... yet, when I purchased their service and did speed tests, the fastest I ever got was 500kbps. At what point is there a false advertising claim to be made against these companies that are advertising service that can NEVER been achieved at any time on their network? I would think if you did speed tests every hour, 24 hours per day for a week and never got within 90% of their claimed speed, there could be a case. The damages would be in customers that are switching from my service to theirs based on their advertising claims. Each customer should be worth at least 12x the monthly revenue based on current market values. Anyone else agree? Or am I way off base here? Travis Microserv -- -- ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- - ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- --- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now. ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php
Re: [WISPA] Advertising
Just out of curiosity, do you have one of your adverts posted somewhere? No, we don't advertise. All referral or direct sales. into a selling point. Note that I was using the Latency example as just one of many possible answers one could give a customer instead of the answer that they were looking for which would give the competitor the upper hand. If you give less transfer speed than the competitor, then that factor is last thing you want on the customer's mind on, as the factor to measure a provider's value. If Latency doesn;t make sense, use service. I'm really interested to see how you make packet latency (which for most bulk traffic is a nearly useless metric of speed as the customer would perceive it) into a selling point. First off, in true technical theory, it is my opinion, that Latency =speed, Transfer rate = capacity. Latency is the speed in which one packet goes from point A to Point B. Transfer rate is the quantity of packets that can be transfered within a specific time. Therefore the Term Speed is incorrectly used in marketing. The question that comes up is... What capacity does an end user typically need for their most common usages? MP4 Streaming Video-- only needs 400kbps. VOIP --- only need MAX of 70kbps. Web Browsing, VERY LITTLE, as most images are web optimized. In a 5mbps service, the MAJORITY of the capacity goes unused. However, High latency ALWAYS has a negative impact on feel. Most residendial or business subs don't use the Internet for primarilly Downloading. Therefore, Transfer rate rarely important. Sure if you are a IT guy -constantly downloading software drivers, or a Designer or Architec -constantly transfering CAD/Layout files, sure Transfer Rate is going to be important to you. Or if you are a kid, doing Limewire, you are going to be big on Transfer Rate. But you know what, those same kids use online games, and latency is big for the gaming. Plus Adults make their buying decissions for their Adult's needs, not their childrens. (meaning hourly wage of a kid nothing, parent on the other hand sqweezing every minute out of the day) The average person uses the Internet for other things. Have of them don't even know how to do a download. 90% of what a person does on WebSites is small data. They are on Amazon, Ebay, and that kind of stuff. Latency on the other hand, gives a feeling of immediate response. Latency helps, VPNs, Remote connectivity, better typing response, etc, etc. For residential PRICE is probably the Biggest factor. Needing technical HELP is probably the second biggest, because Paying for technical help is EXPENSIVE. But transfer rate very few can take advantage of it, based on today's typical use. PS. I recognize next generation applications such as HD TV, can easilly justify GB transfer rates to the home. But we aren't in that generation today. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Advertising Tom DeReggi wrote: [ a nice sales pitch ] Cust-Is it faster than DSL or Cable? Sales- The true measure of speed is Latency, and our latency outperforms both Cable and DSL. Thats why you won't see a latency spec in our competitor's advertisements Just out of curiosity, do you have one of your adverts posted somewhere? I'm really interested to see how you make packet latency (which for most bulk traffic is a nearly useless metric of speed as the customer would perceive it) into a selling point. Latency might be relevant for gamers, but otherwise, a couple hundred milliseconds between click and file starts downloading doesn't seem like it would be nearly as relevant as the time between file starts downloading and file is finished downloading, which usually has little to do with latency. (I know, TCP slow-start and so on, but if you start trying to explain THAT to an end-user you've probably gone way over their head.) David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked
Re: [WISPA] Advertising
Here's how I explain it to a customer: A barge has a lot more bandwidth (ie, capacity) than a speedboat. But if you want to get to the other side of a river, which would you prefer? A speedboat's gonna do it a heck of a lot faster, even though its bandwidth or capacity is a lot lower. There's a lot of latency with a barge, and it moves slowly, even though it can carry a lot at one time. Chuck At 6:32 PM -0400 10/22/07, Tom DeReggi wrote: Just out of curiosity, do you have one of your adverts posted somewhere? No, we don't advertise. All referral or direct sales. into a selling point. Note that I was using the Latency example as just one of many possible answers one could give a customer instead of the answer that they were looking for which would give the competitor the upper hand. If you give less transfer speed than the competitor, then that factor is last thing you want on the customer's mind on, as the factor to measure a provider's value. If Latency doesn;t make sense, use service. I'm really interested to see how you make packet latency (which for most bulk traffic is a nearly useless metric of speed as the customer would perceive it) into a selling point. First off, in true technical theory, it is my opinion, that Latency =speed, Transfer rate = capacity. Latency is the speed in which one packet goes from point A to Point B. Transfer rate is the quantity of packets that can be transfered within a specific time. Therefore the Term Speed is incorrectly used in marketing. The question that comes up is... What capacity does an end user typically need for their most common usages? MP4 Streaming Video-- only needs 400kbps. VOIP --- only need MAX of 70kbps. Web Browsing, VERY LITTLE, as most images are web optimized. In a 5mbps service, the MAJORITY of the capacity goes unused. However, High latency ALWAYS has a negative impact on feel. Most residendial or business subs don't use the Internet for primarilly Downloading. Therefore, Transfer rate rarely important. Sure if you are a IT guy -constantly downloading software drivers, or a Designer or Architec -constantly transfering CAD/Layout files, sure Transfer Rate is going to be important to you. Or if you are a kid, doing Limewire, you are going to be big on Transfer Rate. But you know what, those same kids use online games, and latency is big for the gaming. Plus Adults make their buying decissions for their Adult's needs, not their childrens. (meaning hourly wage of a kid nothing, parent on the other hand sqweezing every minute out of the day) The average person uses the Internet for other things. Have of them don't even know how to do a download. 90% of what a person does on WebSites is small data. They are on Amazon, Ebay, and that kind of stuff. Latency on the other hand, gives a feeling of immediate response. Latency helps, VPNs, Remote connectivity, better typing response, etc, etc. For residential PRICE is probably the Biggest factor. Needing technical HELP is probably the second biggest, because Paying for technical help is EXPENSIVE. But transfer rate very few can take advantage of it, based on today's typical use. PS. I recognize next generation applications such as HD TV, can easilly justify GB transfer rates to the home. But we aren't in that generation today. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Advertising Tom DeReggi wrote: [ a nice sales pitch ] Cust-Is it faster than DSL or Cable? Sales- The true measure of speed is Latency, and our latency outperforms both Cable and DSL. Thats why you won't see a latency spec in our competitor's advertisements Just out of curiosity, do you have one of your adverts posted somewhere? I'm really interested to see how you make packet latency (which for most bulk traffic is a nearly useless metric of speed as the customer would perceive it) into a selling point. Latency might be relevant for gamers, but otherwise, a couple hundred milliseconds between click and file starts downloading doesn't seem like it would be nearly as relevant as the time between file starts downloading and file is finished downloading, which usually has little to do with latency. (I know, TCP slow-start and so on, but if you start trying to explain THAT to an end-user you've probably gone way over their head.) David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com
