[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: [BULK] WSG Digest
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: [BULK] WSG Digest
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: [BULK] WSG Digest
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: [BULK] WSG Digest
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest
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[WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest
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[WSG] Web Application Accessibility
Hi, I am conducting a study into the accessibility of Internet application frameworks for a thesis in computer science and I would be grateful if you would take the time to complete the following test, its very short and would help a lot with this piece of research, I will post a link to a summarized version when I have completed the research. http://www.krumphau.com/disapps/index.php Regards Andy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Web Application Accessibility
Hi, I am conducting a study into the accessibility of Internet application frameworks for a thesis in computer science and I would be grateful if you would take the time to complete the following test, its very short and would help a lot with this piece of research, I will post a link to a summarized version when I have completed the research. http://www.krumphau.com/disapps/index.php Regards Andy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Jquery and/or Yahoo UI
Hi Simon, jQuery won't introduce any errors automatically, so unless you tell it to do something that will generate invalid HTML or CSS it will be fine. I assume the same is true of YUI. - Andrew Ingram Hi, Anyone using jQuery (http://jquery.com/) or Yahoo UI ( http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/) ? Do they, help to, build nice Standards based apps? Am I going to see green lights* in Firefox for standards compliance, error-free CSS and Javascript...oh...and will the HTML and CSS validate? *I LOVE those little green lights. Cheers, Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] document.getElementById slow?
Hi Simon, Direct access will always be faster, here's how the methods work: getElementById has to recurse through every child element (the approach of the recursion may vary from browser-to-browser) until it finds an element that matches the id and then it breaks out of the loop and returns the element. Directly accessing the elements using dot notation is less flexible because it will only work with a specific html structure, but there's no looping so it's a O(1) complexity algorithm (ie very fast), whereas the getElementById algorithm gets increasingly complex as the DOM gets more complicated. Hope this helps. Regards, Andrew Ingram Hi, http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Using_Web_Standards_in_your_Web_Pages states: The best and most supported practice for getting scriptable access to an element in an HTML page is to use document.getElementById(id). A colleague of mine reckons such access will be much slower than accessing the element directly. So which is faster? document.forms.myform.elements.field1 or document.getElementById(field1) Cheers, Simon *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Semantics and small
Hi Blake, Garret Dimmon used small for the purpose you are suggesting in his site redesign. He explains his reasoning behind it in this article on digital web (http://www.digital-web.com/articles/coding_for_content/). It's down to personal preference but I think the reasoning is pretty good. Regards, Andrew Ingram Hey list, We have two elements, EM and STRONG, to emphasise text as being more important than the text around it, but we don't seem to have any elements to show that text is less important than the surrounding text. What is the best way to show something is less important than the surrounding information (e.g. the date of a post or article, supplementary information at the bottom of a post or article)? It seems to me the only tag that represents anything remotely close to that is the small tag, however that is a purely presentational tag according to the W3C specifications as it only specifies font information. While style sheets and, for example the SPAN element, are definitely a better way of specifying the font information that the SMALL element would provide, they don't provide any semantic information to indicate that the text is less important. What do you guys think about showing that something is less important relative to the surrounding content? Regards, Blake *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Server-side includes?
Hi Paul, My question is: are server-side includes good, bad, or neither in the eyes of standards and semantics? Neither. There's no connection between the use of SSI and semantics or standards. SSI enables elements of a page to be modularised (note that there are specific SSI commands for including file modification dates, filenames. etc.). For example, the HTML for global navigation bars can be 'put' into a separate file and included into each page. FILE PROCESSING One consideration is that a page may only have one form of processing applied to it. So if a website uses PHP or ASP then server-side includes that have been implemented using directives for Apache or IIS will not work. (A PHP or ASP include directive will need to be used instead.) More on SSI: http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/ssi.php HTH, -- Andy Kirkwood Motive: net communication -- with intent http://www.motive.co.nz ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards and Aesthetics
Hi John, Many standards websites have subtle gradients in backgrounds -- is this because designers are confident in using PNG files which do gradients better for smaller file sizes? My opinion is that gradients and textures are introduced to recreate the textures of real world surfaces not otherwise available to a projected light display. As an example, A List Apart's new design [1] harks back to Victorian woodcut typographic elements which lends the page 'warmth'. So, is the technology dictating the look, or are all these things just accidents of history because some major relaunch like the stopdesign/AdaptivePath redesign of Blogger looked that way? Perhaps an awareness of standards (as suggested by Russ in his expanded web standards checklist [2]) begets an awareness of accessibility and the impact of presentation on accessibility (read text-legibility in this instance). If this is the case, then form is likely to follow function. Type *not* set at 9 pixels, less incidence of type-as-image and establishing a 'style guide' (focus on content) rather than 'poster' (focus on image) suggest that the designer is more aware of end-use. When seen on mass it is likely that similar 'solutions' will be found to the same design 'problems'. As noted by Ted, the pioneers in the field of web standards have set a visual tone that those new to the field may either learn from or aspire to recreate. In particular blogs have rapidly changed the overall tone of the web both at a visual and functional level. In some ways the default templates for blogging software have set an expectation that webpages should be fixed-width and centered to the screen (not an opinion that I share). For a non-web equivalent some clients now believe that a logo is only a logo when it: -has a shadow -is 3D -or is inset or embossed If a 'web standard look' is the look that is associated with the websites that are relevant (i.e. contemporary/topical) then design agencies may 'borrow' this aesthetic to be seen as contemporary. The 'web standards look' also has much in common with the new interfaces to the Macintosh and Windows operating systems. The dark to light gradient of the OS X icons being an obvious reference. Again this can be seen as drawing on a familiar paradigm to minimise potential barriers between the user and content. [1] A List Apart http://www.alistapart.com [2] Web standards checklist http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/checklist.cfm Cheers, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] shrink-to-fit width in Opera
One of my annoyances with Opera is that it calculates the shrink-to- fit width of absolutely positioned elements to be the minimum width, basically adding a break after each word. I wanted to write about how annoying this was, but thought I'd better check the specs first, just in case it was actually right. http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#the-width-property However I'm having trouble understanding the spec (no surprise there) Here is the pertinent extract. Calculation of the shrink-to-fit width is similar to calculating the width of a table cell using the automatic table layout algorithm. Roughly: calculate the preferred width by formatting the content without breaking lines other than where explicit line breaks occur, and also calculate the preferred minimum width, e.g., by trying all possible line breaks. CSS 2.1 does not define the exact algorithm. Thirdly, calculate the available width: this is found by solving for 'width' after setting 'left' (in case 1) or 'right' (in case 3) to 0. 1. 'left' and 'width' are 'auto' and 'right' is not 'auto', then the width is shrink-to-fit. Then solve for 'left' 3. 'width' and 'right' are 'auto' and 'left' is not 'auto', then the width is shrink-to-fit . Then solve for 'right' Then the shrink-to-fit width is: min(max(preferred minimum width, available width), preferred width). Thoughts? Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] shrink-to-fit width in Opera
First, which version of Opera are you testing ? 7.5blah, 8.02, 8.5 Second, what kind of content goes into that absolute positioned element ? Text If I put an element with just some static text in, Opera 7.5 - 9 prev display the same as Firefox (1.6a1 nightly), Camino (1.0b), iCab, Safari 1.2+. Doesn't for me. One of my many irritations with Opera. The spec doesn't specify exactly what should happen; here is the key: quote CSS 2.1 does not define the exact algorithm/quote Well yes, but essentially it is either going to expand to 100%, shrink to the minimum width or shrink to fit the available space. What exactly is a line break ? Does the end of a *floated* span constitute a line break in this context ? New line Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] jump menu method (Out of office until Nov 23)
Hello, I am out of the office until Nov 23. I will have limited access to email so for any urgent queries please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] on (04) 474 3000 x8884. Thanks, Andy wsg 11/21/05 08:34 If you have to do it this way, and like everyone else I don't recommend it, then you could help the SEO by adding the pages in link tags to the head. see http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_link.asp for more info. Cheers Charlie web : http://www.bartlettdesign.co.uk mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 11/20/05, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the replies -this is going to be tuff- Patrick--- the menu functionality relies completely on javascript. Unless you do provide some other form of navigation that links to those pages, you're effectively hiding your pages from search engines. The .net programmer could make the form controls server side but would putting a token list of the links in the footer solve the seo problems at all? ---Terrence--- Theres no way of breaking down the navigation into smaller chunks without creating a mystery meat situation. The brothercake dhtml menus seem like an option/last resort- but can a dhtml or css drop down menu force the page to scroll while a user follows a long list of links with the mouse? Here was the simple method that i suggested.. but the client has strong opinions against scrolling. http://mcmonagle.biz/dropdowns/ Here was another suggestion that i thought might work but they are not impressed. (view in ie) http://mcmonagle.biz/newoti/otinavtest.htm what about these simpler methods? thanks again kvnmcwebn ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Good practice of CSS styled forms
Hi Goran, Our glossary provides a few form references, including usability, accessibility, styling, etc. Have reviewed the references up to a point. As per usual with the web, caveat emptor. http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/forms.php Best regards, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Screen reader users: Label text for search field?
Hi, (Apologies for the re-post, thought this might have been buried under the flurry of CSS queries.) Currently there seem to be a few different approaches (with regional variation) to marking up a simple search form. -Search for [Input field] [Button: Go] -[Input field: Text: Search for...] [Button: Go] -[Input field] [Button: Search] The above approaches seem ok for sighted users. The issue I've come across is when the search form also enables the scope to be limited to a section of a website. In such a case I tend to build more of a composite sentence from the input elements: -Search [Select: Scope/Section names] for [Input field] [Button: Go] The issue is labelling the input field. Although accessibility sites such as WebAim markup the text 'Search' as the label for the input field, 'Search' does not describe the nature of the input? On the WebAim site 'Search' is used as the label for the input field on one search form [1] AND as the label for the search scope on another [2]. [1] http://www.webaim.org [2] http://www.webaim.org/siteindex Compare the relationship between the label and field for another common example: Surname [Input field] Here the user is expected to enter their surname into the field. Perhaps a more appropriate label for the search input field would be 'keyword'? Or is the general consensus that 'Search' is accepted shorthand for 'I want to find...' or 'term to search for'? I'm also attempting to track down some references on how screen readers negotiate (non-Javascript) select elements. Is it preferable to associate a label with the select, or use the first option in the select as the label. Label: Limit search to: [Select menu] or... [Begin select *Limit search to* -Entire website (selected) -Corporate info -Glossary -Guides -News End select] Any screen reader users out there who would like to add their 2 cents/pence/pesos? Best regards, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Wild metadata
Hi Jonathan, ** The problem ** On the Web, DC.description and DC.subject are not very effective finding aids when the full text is indexed. I'm unclear as to the purpose of your enquiry. My take on what you have outlined is that you're seeking a method of generating metadata records without requiring the author to be involved. If this were the approach taken by the White House, then George W Bush's biography would be assigned the metadata record 'miserable failure'. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3298443.stm The benefit of classification by an authority (someone who knows their field) is that the classification differentiates content. The more specific the classification, the more useful that classification is to a knowledgeable searcher. On the web, broad, common language classification systems are of most value when the subject is unknown. For example, as a new web designer I might search for 'web design'. As my knowledge increases, my search is likely to be become more sophisticated, for example 'CSS floats' or 'IE box-model hack'. It would be helpful to define both 'effective' and 'finding aid'. As search is such a broad topic it would also be productive to establish context. For example, is this a public search or a site specific search? Would metadata records be displayed to the user or factored into the page ranking? Etc. ** The solution ** Wild metadata, such as anchor text, blog descriptions and folksonomies may provide better description and subject (or keyword) metadata. If the author-generated metadata records are displayed as part of a search result records, then they provide a succinct description of the content. As to whether an individual finds metadata record support the locating of content, the method of display, relevance of the metadata records to the search conducted, personal preference, etc also come into play. Link text (i.e. the text used to link to one webpage from another) is already factored in public search engine ranking algorithms, as does the number of incoming links. Trackbacks http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/trackback.php are an existing method of capitalising on blog comments, as the link text and blurb from referring webpage is embedded on the source webpage. With regard to folksonomies, looking through Technorati's tags http://www.technorati.com/tags/ , content is often classified according to subjective qualities such as 'rant', 'rambling' and 'random'. It is more likely that folksonomies constitute a snapshot of the evolution of language. As a 'fringe' term become socialised it emerges as part of a formal classification system. For example the term 'hack', as it pertains to CSS, has been socialised to the point where it has become meaningful search term. I would go so far as to suggest that public search engines have already implemented a 'wild metadata' approach to generating search results. Perhaps the issue with the value of metadata records lies less with how they are generated and more with how people phrase search queries and use the web. You might find it useful to browse our glossary as it provides further info on search engines, folksonomies, metadata, etc. http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary . Best regards, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders
Hi Geoff, (To pick up on Patrick's point.) Have you come across a scenario on a website where it seems appropriate to use an input element to indicate that an option exists but cannot be edited by the user? Perhaps it's preferable to show such content as text rather than as an input? (Seems like an instance of yes, we have no bananas: yes this is an input, but no you can't.) Best regards, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Label text for search input
Hi, Currently there seem to be a few different approaches (with regional variation) to marking up a simple search form. -Search for [Input field] [Button: Go] -[Input field: Text: Search for...] [Button: Go] -[Input field] [Button: Search] The above approaches seem ok for sighted users. The issue I've come across is when the search form also enables the scope to be limited to a section of a website. In such a case I tend to build more of a composite sentence from the input elements: -Search [Select: Scope/Section names] for [Input field] [Button: Go] The issue is labelling the input field. Although accessibility sites such as WebAim markup the text 'Search' as the label for the input field, 'Search' does not describe the nature of the input? On the WebAim site 'Search' is used as the label for the input field on one search form [1] AND as the label for the search scope on another [2]. [1] http://www.webaim.org [2] http://www.webaim.org/siteindex Compare the relationship between the label and field for another common example: Surname [Input field] Here the user is expected to enter their surname into the field. Perhaps a more appropriate label for the search input field would be 'keyword'? Or is the general consensus that 'Search' is accepted shorthand for 'I want to find...' or 'term to search for'? I'm also attempting to track down some references on how screen readers negotiate (non-Javascript) select elements. Is it preferable to associate a label with the select, or use the first option in the select as the label. Label: Limit search to: [Select menu] or... [Begin select *Limit search to* -Entire website (selected) -Corporate info -Glossary -Guides -News End select] Any screen reader users out there who would like to add their 2 cents/pence/pesos? Best regards, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders
Hi Rebecca, For example, if you wanted to show that a field was editable content (within the whole application), but not on the particular screen you are on right now (especially if the user knew that by clicking on edit or some other option they would be able to edit those particular fields.) As you mention it would be preferable to indicate this functionality by showing an Edit button next to the (currently uneditable) text. Showing that an option exists but is not currently available is often a technique used in application menus. For example it's important to know that the Copy command can be found in the Edit menu, even when the Copy command is not an available action. The user is able to learn the interface more readily when this approach is taken. However I can't think of a similar situation on a website (if you don't have any bananas then I'm going somewhere else ;). Unless the website is more of a web application. Any examples come to mind? å -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Accessibility: Default placeholders
Hi Kevin, Nice example, top marks ;). Sometimes these discussions can get a little abstract and one (real world) example can help make the discussion less murky. Geoff, I understand your pain with regard to traditional (print) designers and the often rocky transition to screen-based design. (Although there's also no guarantee that a developer is any more aware of interface semantics.) By way of confession, back in '97 I coded a form using radio buttons as found them more satisfying aesthetically than checkboxes. Hopefully education or general awareness means that up-and-coming web designer/developers have more of a community to draw on. I often think the root cause of many issues with website usability come down to the mock-it-up-in-Photoshop-then-hand-it-over-to-the-tech-people-to-be-built approach. Ideally there would be meaningful dialogue between the brand/visual and the interface/usability. I actually used read only input fields recently for our online subject selections. Compulsory subjects were pulled out of a database and displayed as read only input fields, while other fields were normal select elements. Why not just display the compulsory subjects as plain text? Because then there is a visual and cognitive dissonance between the two information sets - they can seem unrelated, especially when you consider that high school students rarely read a web form's accompanying text, no matter how important. I think in this case the fact that the information was displayed with as part of the form avoided that problem, while using the readonly attribute and styling the input text a medium grey took care of the rest. Cheers, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Naked metadata - RDF in HTML
the records within the content does not make it any more likely that the records will be entered. It just leads to an amusing situation of having to write content to include metadata records. Attempting to approximate a solution using work-arounds and existing tools is always likely to be less optimal. I'm not suggesting that budget isn't a consideration, but if metadata records and their management is important to an organisation, then that's a business case for either sourcing or developing appropriate tools. One word: Tags. Bottom up, ad-hoc, and eventually convergent labelling seems to have a lot more traction in the wider audience than thesauri, and controlled vocabs. The traction of tags has to do with ease of implementation. If it's easy for me (as the content author) to add metadata records and I'm prompted to add metadata records by the system I'm using, then I'm more likely to do so. Lastly, naked metadata will be indexed by (public) search engines, used to determine relevance, and returned in SERP's. Here 'Naked metadata' *is* content. Unless the RDF scheme is used by the search engine algorithm, the naked records will not affect ranking. Best regards, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand
Re: [WSG] Naked metadata - RDF in HTML
Hi Jonathan, An interesting application of the technology, although I'm not sure that is addresses how to make it *easier* for administrators to maintain metadata records. ISSUES (Assuming the ideal solution would be a wysiwyg editing environment for non-technical content authors.) -adding DC class values to span elements is not a mark-up behaviour likely to be supported by wysiwyg editors in such a manner that it would be 'effortless' for an author, i.e. the author would typically need to edit the source code to add appropriate class values -administrators will still not entirely 'see' the metadata they've added, as it is the combination of the name and content values that creates a meaningful record, and this would only be visible at a code level -the benefit of metadata is that it can be used to classify content to a significant degree of detail *without encroaching upon the visible page content itself*. The example provided, http://research.talis.com/2005/erdf/wiki/Main/RdfInHtml , re-purposes content as metadata. If the content is edited, the record could (unintentionally) be deleted, or the content rewritten to included the records required -if metadata records are split between the head and body of a document, review would likely require a greater degree of concentration/quality assurance and/or additional supporting technologies (such as a metadata record 'viewer' that would reveal both conventional and class-based records) -etc. A custom-built CMS, as a companion to a well-supported publishing process, is still your best bet. The metadata records can be entered at the same time as the content, with values selected from a controlled vocabulary, etc. and then output either into the head or body as required. After all, it's more than just the ability to add or edit metadata records, its also the relevance of the values entered to the content, end-use of the records and the intended community. Food for thought anyway... Best regards, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Naked metadata
Hi Jonathan, I second Patrick's comment that 'pointing' the DC records to content on the page is not the solution. Although, from a maintenance perspective, this may appear to be a work-around for not completing the metadata records (questionable), metadata harvesting tools are unlikely to populate the content attribute of the meta element with content from the webpage. In other words, the metadata records cease to have value as metadata. Consider educating content authors or moving to a CMS. For example, in a CMS, a rule could be created that require a minimum set of metadata records to be completed before content can be published. If using a static system, then adding a placeholder for metadata content to template pages may be a solution, e.g. meta name=DC.title content=[tba] / meta name=DC.creator content=[tba] / (The author would then search the source code for the string '[tba]' as part of the publishing protocol to remind them to complete the md records.) ** The problem ** People updating Web pages often doesn't update the metadata in the header. ** The solution ** Tag appropriate Web data with id attributes. Point to the data from the appropriate metadata field in the header. Best regards, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css title styles
Hi Sarah, I was just looking for a way to give the user immediate feedback about each reference, and thought the title may be useful. The problem with linking back and forth is that there are *so* many references on each page, sometimes two or three to each quote, so it gets a bit messy. Perhaps this is more of a content consideration, i.e. that inline references are supplementary to the central narrative? If the reader is *required* to check each reference to understand the author's intended meaning/understanding, it would suggest that the content could do with another draft ; ). If re-written and truncated to suit it's use as a short-hand identification of the origins of the opinion/quotation, the title attribute on a source anchor (that links to the full reference) would appear to be a good compromise. Although a deviation from strict academic referencing practice, consider moving the title of the work to the front of the attribute value: a href=#ref1 title=The mode of action of lipid-soluble antioxidants in biological membranes. Relationship between the effects of ubiquinol and vitamin E as inhibitors of lipid peroxidation in submitochondrial particles., Ernster L, Forsmark P amp; Nordenbrand K. (1992)sup[1]/sup/a It might even be appropriate to omit all other details (year, author(s), publisher, etc.) and strip out the strapline. a href=#ref1 title=The mode of action of lipid-soluble antioxidants in biological membranes.sup[1]/sup/a Even if using the JavaScript method, editing and truncating the reference will likely suit it better to its intended purpose. Rationale: - the first few words of the title are most likely to be read - the first few words differentiate one reference from another - (perhaps subject to content-field), the title of the work provides more *immediate* context - the title text is likely to be truncated - the author's name is often referenced inline, e.g. (Ernster L, Forsmark P Nordenbrand K, 1992) is an comparable conventional short-form reference. - if content deals with a specialised topic area, the author's name(s) are likely to be repeated and it won't be possible to distinguish between different works by the same author(s) -in general, web-writing prioritises content over authorship, for example, link text that describes the destination content tends to be more useful/usable than link text that identifies the destination content author. Additional considerations: - indicating to the reader (visually or otherwise) that the source anchor can provide an expanded reference (a link 'says', click-me rather than hover over me for a couple of seconds, then click me) -using an unmodified superscript element may make it difficult to hover or click the reference link (too small a target) Additional approaches to footnotes and endnotes: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www/fn.html Best regards, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] css title styles
Hi Sarah, Unfortunately the exact wording of the content (in this client's case) is legally required, and so the possibility of editing it, or the references, in any way is out of the question. Moving the title of the reference to the fore of the title attribute value wouldn't be changing the reference (as it is shown in the endnotes), but representing it in a medium-appropriate manner? If the title attribute is too long it will be truncated anyway. It could be perceived that there's a similar issue of changing the content when adding alt attributes or long descriptions to images, in-page anchors, etc. It may come down to the relationship with the client, but if the protocol you recommend for implementing references on the website is formalised, then perhaps using the title attribute would be seen as a adding-value-to rather than 'changing' the reference? The client's web style guide would then be updated to ensure a consistent approach is taken to marking-up future documents (and get the legal team back on board). You could illustrate the issue of medium-specificity with how a search engine results page may excerpt a portion of a document (without the complete reference text). I like the idea of linking back to the content once the reader has read the relevant footnote, but there are many instances when more than one footnote is attributed to a portion of the content (see example below). Also, the same footnote reference is referred to in different portions of the content. The example you've provide isn't too bad, you could create separate links for each reference marker (a[1]/aa[2]/a). What's more problematic is the second situation you've identified where a single reference is linked to *twice* within the same document, e.g. pThis paragraph is at the top of the document [1]/p p/p pThis one is further down the page, but also references the same document [1]/p (Clarifying for the benefit of the avid reader.) Making clear to the user which of the two reference markers the user would jump back to, would perhaps be more trouble than it's worth. Looks like linking the reference back to the reference mark could be out then. Although the one-way system might not be too bad--the reader can still get a quick sense from the title attribute as to what the reference is to, and then read the full reference by clicking the link. I'm not against the JavaScript Sweet Titles option posted, but agree with the spirit of the usability observation on the entry that an overly-long tooltip may 'feel' unwieldy or provide more detail than might be expected/required from a short reference. Let me know the path you end up taking. As usual, there's no 'silver bullet'... Best regards, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Help needed with IE drama...
Hi Darren, I haven't reviewed the bug, however if its anything like the issue we've come across with comments [1] then you could try an alternative method of commenting the code. (This goes somewhat to the concept of semantic markup also.) Rather than: !-- begin footer -- div id=footer ... /div !-- end footer -- try: div id=footer ... !-- end footer --/div Rationale: The id attribute identifies the nature of the div (as a result of taking a semantic approach to assigning the id value there is no need 'duplicate' this information in the comment). It is more problematic to keep track of the end of the div, and so a comment is useful. Placing the end comment inside the /div avoids the issue with floats and comments. Admittedly, it took me a while to get used to the new coding convention, but the judicious use of white space helps. [1] Bug caused by floats and comments: http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/dup-characters.html We've worked out that the issue was caused by the comments in the HTML file. Has anyone had this sort of issue before? If there a solution other then removing the comments? Best regards, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] advices for using headings more correctly
Hi Julián, SEMANTICS EXTRACTOR Sometimes a view that approximates the semantics of the content can be useful. Fortunately the W3C have just such a tool: http://www.w3.org/2003/12/semantic-extractor.html . This will likely affirm Paul's point regarding an h3 as a 'parent' to an h2 element (i.e. don't). INDEX vs CONTENT PAGES It's also worth distinguishing between index and content pages when considering use of heading elements to impose structure. (An index page being an entry-point to a section of a website, for example a list of recent articles structured by topic.) For this type of page you might want to re-jig the hierarchies, e.g.: h1Articles/h1 h2Topic/h2 h3Article title/h3 h3Article title/h3 h3Article title/h3 h2Topic/h2 h3Article title/h3 h3Article title/h3 h3Article title/h3 If you have articles and guide on the same page, then this would be one of the rare instances where multiple h1 elements may be appropriate. h1 AND WEBSITE NAME/TITLE I wouldn't recommend using an h1 for the website title. If you're concerned with identifying the website (for example to screen readers) then include the website name/title in the title element, e.g: head titleContent title | Website name/title /head body h1Content title/h1 ... /body See 'Typical user scenario: 1-7 for an outline of how a screen reader may interpret page elements': http://www.standards-schmandards.com/index.php?2005/01/10/13-browsing-habits For more on the title element http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/meta.php Best regards, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites
Hi Joe, Our clients don't care as long as it works. They do care that we care enough to make them the best, most accessible site we can, but they could care less how. It's more of an issue when a website is maintained by the client. If they're not aware of the distinction between accessible and inaccessible markup, they'll be unable to preserve the integrity of the content. If they 'don't care' in this sense, then they won't take the time to add alt attributes, validate code, only use tables for data, etc. While some CMS's have measures to prevent contributors from unintentionally creating inaccessible markup, others happy proclaim standards compliance while encouraging/enabling content to be entered inappropriately or incompletely. For example, the use of blockquote to achieve a text indent (a 'feature' of a number of wysiwyg authoring tools). An informed content author would (of course) only use this feature to denote a quotation... The manufacturing industry provides another example of where standards are equally important. Screw threads, washer bores, etc. that are manufactured to a particular quality (as in materials or finish) or standard specification (size, weight) have a 'home' in the real world. It all depends on who the client is and what criteria they're using to assess potential development partners as to how relevant standards and accessibility discussions are. Legal precedents can also carry a bit of weight. Cheers, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites
Hi Richard, To play the devil's advocate... Certainly humanist developers aim to remove the barriers that technology might place between users and content. However, difficulty arises when determining what constitutes 'technical' literacy. This could range from 'What's a link' through to 'How do I increase/decrease text size'. Even many of the 'hooks' put into content markup to make it more accessible are not used by a screen reader unless the user customises the behaviour of the software (reading title attributes for one). The issue of determining prior (technical) knowledge is one of those bug-bears like browser statistics. Even though we'd like to, it's problematic to generalise. On the other hand, adding an introduction to every webpage on how to use the web is equally untenable. Incidentally, does anyone know of a formal public-school curriculum that covers using the web? Such a document/documents might provide an insight as to how we (as in society-at-large) currently qualify 'technical literacy'. I think it's important to NOT expect users to know how to do this or even be vaguely technically literate. Doctors, for example, shouldn't have to be IT experts. They fix people not machines. It's simply not their job or responsibility to be forced to learn the HUGE amount of stuff that as developers we've crammed into our head. This doesn't mean they should be penaliseed and not allowed to see web sites or interact as freely on the web as the rest of us. -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] File sizes in links: kb KB mb MB etc.
Hi Dan, Data storage units are a bit of a can of worms. The problem lies in common-usage vs. international standards. There are also 'old' and 'new' standards for unit abbreviations. METRIC vs BINARY UNIT GUIDE Essential reading before continuing... http://www.romulus2.com/articles/guides/misc/bitsbytes.shtml RELEVANCE TO USERS There are a few reasons for showing filesize: -setting an expectation of time-to-download -setting an expectation of filesize (perhaps preferable for users on fixed usage plans) -inferring quality (assuming bigger file = better 'quality') As connection speeds tend to be in kilobits per second (kbps), then filesize _may be easier to convert to 'time-to-download'. (Although download speed uses metric notation while data storage values tends to use binary notation). The discrepancy between data transfer speed (metric) and filesize (mostly binary) is likely to be the root cause of the unit abbreviation confusion. I'd recommend MiB/MB for files greater than 1MiB/MB, and KiB/kB for files less than 1MiB/MB. If a single webpage offers alternative quality options, say for Quicktime media files, listing the download options with filesizes using the units may make it easier for the user to choose an appropriate option. Listing options in a meaningful order, e.g. from smallest-to-largest filesize will also help. (At all costs avoid ambiguous labels such as 'High' or 'Low' which could equally relate to connection speed or quality.) FILE SIZES UNDER MAC vs WINDOWS To add insult to injury, Mac and Windows operating systems use different systems when calculating filesize. Windows 2000 (File Properties) -binary: 1MiB (mebibyte) = 1024 KiB (kibibytes) Mac 0S X (File Info) -metric: 1MB (megabyte) = 1000 KB (kilobytes) SUMMARY Given the relative number of Mac and Windows users (more Windows users) and referring to the new IEC standards, the 'correct' unit abbreviation *should be* mebibytes (MiB) or kibibytes (KiB), however this flies in the face of common practice that refers to the 'old' standards of MB and KB. Toss a coin? a href=file.pdfSome file (PDF 0.1MB)/a My inclination is to use MB (Megabytes) where appropriate (ie. if the file is greater than 0.01MB), and KB (Kilobytes) for files less than 0.01MB. My reasoning is that more users can grasp the concept of a Megabyte (think floppy disks, flash drives, some MP3 players) than they can a kilobyte, kilobit or megabyte. My only concern would be that most sites seem to use (ambiguosly) one of the kb varieties. -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch
Hi Mike, I'm curious as to how the decision regarding browser support came about. What did the client perceive the 'benefits' of excluding a particular user-base to be? Why not cater to IE5 Mac if the work had already been done? no, that was an informed client choice! We had orginally done the templates to look pretty much the same in IE5 (Win and Mac), but during the integration phase they decided to not send styles to those browsers. I think their statistics showed very few visits from those browsers. I guess this may be one of the first examples of a major (for NZ) public site making the choice not to send styles to those browsers. Yah for clients prepared to make that decision :) -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch
Hi Terrence, My interest in Mike's post is in the client-developer relationship. What swayed the client toward excluding Mac IE from stylesheet support could be beneficial when considering the merits of such an approach with other standards-aware clients. Perhaps the RNZ decision means that Mac IE is now 'browser non grata'. The content is still available to any browser, so in that sense no-one is being excluded. Substitute 'user-experience degraded' in place of 'excluded' if you will. Unless I have misunderstood Mike, a decision was made to exclude Mac IE users *when they had already been 'included'*. taking a long term view there will be benefits from the reduced site maintainence. Such as? A 'dead' browser cannot spawn new bugs, once know bugs have been addressed, there should be no impact upon website maintenance. I can safely say, from server logs I have access to, the only people using IE5/Mac in New Zealand are designers/developers testing their (or my) designs, and you are more likely to come across IE/PC 4 in the wild. As you note,' from the server logs you have access to', and browser statistics vary depending on the user community--unless you're making direct reference to the RNZ website? Best regards, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Firefox mystery space bug?
Hi Joe,
Extra space between divs is often caused by a bottom margin overhang on the
content of the top div. For example, say the p element has a bottom margin
.of .6em. If this is the last element in the top div you may get a space of
approx .6em between the top and bottom divs.
The solution is either to set a custom class on the last element in the top div
to zero the bottom margin, or (preferred) add a dummy element under all content
in the top div with a zero'd bottom margin.
HTML
div
pLast paragraph element./p
p class=endnbsp;/p
/div
CSS
p.end {
height: 1px;
margin: 0;
}
You might also want to set the visited state colour for the footer links to
something with greater contrast than purple on blue.
check this out. http://hayteam.sitesbyjoe.com/default.asp
I get this occasional bug to show in Firefox for Windows. What happens is
occasionally Firefox puts a big space at the bottom of my content before just
before the footer as if I had a bunch of spaces in there. It doesn't always
happen, but sometimes it shows up if I refresh a few times, then after another
refresh it disappears.
--
Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director
Motive | web.design.integrity
http://www.motive.co.nz
ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693
mob: 021 369 693
93 Rintoul St, Newtown
PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Styling legends and fieldsets (Out of office until Nov 1)
Hello, I am out of the office until Nov 1. I will have limited access to email so for any urgent queries please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] on (04) 474 8884. Thanks, Andy wsg 10/20/05 08:43 It depends how you want to style it mostly times you can whip moz and IE into shape (with margin, position, and padding) but I've always found Opera to be problematic. Usually I've had to revisit the visual design. Make a case that a form is a special information object (e.g. interactive) where it's constiuents need to be treated as a single unit, thus form elements need to be differentiated (visually) from the normal flow of the page. Legends aren't headings (in relation to the page), but labels that summarise a collection of form controls. kind regards Terrence Wood. Mike Brown said: This really is a rhetorical question born of frustration, but why is the styling of legends and fieldsets so bad across browsers? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Couple of question - Image Map etc.
Hi Taco, SINGLE IMAGE vs MULTIPLE IMAGES A single image loads faster than the same cut into separate images. HTTP requires a new connection to be made to the server for each file (i.e. image). Even when the single image filesize is the same as the sum of the individual files, reconnecting to download each file introduces noticeable 'lag' (obviously more noticeable on dial-up than cable). Cheers, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Footer Navigation
Hi Sarah, COLD WAR AND NAVIGATION CRITIQUE A usability consideration with link duplication is the potential for 'navigational confusion'. This becomes more pronounced if there are *apparent* differences either in presentation or wording of the navigation. To polarise the issue, it can be useful to adopt a 'cold-war' mindset. Assume that navigation is the interface to a military mainframe computer, where , at a moments notice the operator has to deploy a countering anti-nuclear missile. In this hypothetical situation hesitation caused by poor navigation labels or duplicate navigation could have serious repercussions. (I was put on to this particular paradigm by a Useit article reappraising military computer interface standards from 1986: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20050117_guidelines.html ) SIGN-POSTS In a previous incarnation of our corporate website, we eschewed navigation at the top of the page entirely. Our rationale was, that coming to the end of the content, presenting the user with the top-level navigational options would be more efficient. No scrolling back to the top of the page. Our thinking was changed by Steve Krug's 'Don't Make Me Think' (with its either ironic or unfortunate cover) where he discusses navigation in terms of real-world signage. If you're lost in an unfamiliar city do you look to your feet or up at street signage? In addition, when a user looks to the top-level navigation, it is likely that they are starting a new 'task'. The street-signage analogy, coupled with Western reading traditions of starting at the top left of a page convinced us to move our navigation to the top of the screen (and only list administrative-level links in the page footer). For more support you could also refer your client to our glossary entry on navigation: http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/navigation.php Best regards, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Dublin Core metadata
Hi Paul, The main advantages of the Dublin Core metadata is that it represents the efforts of a group of information and library science experts to translate the cataloguing conventions previously associated with real world libraries into metadata equivalents. This translation includes details such as publisher, copyright, etc. For a complete list of the elements see our glossary entry: http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/dublincore.php Adhering to the standards the DC working group recommend is one step toward interoperability--enabling catalogue records to be shared by different organisations. This aim of interoperability is not dissimilar to that of a web standards approach to content markup. AFAIK DC is of most use for custom-build search engines rather than for public services such as Google. In New Zealand, DC metadata is used for the New Zealand government porta and locator service: http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/nzgls.php . For a less dry example, the Image Library of the Australian National library also uses DC metadata: http://www.pictureaustralia.org/ I have recently been reading about Dublin Core meta data. I would like to know what the main advantages are of using it and how widely it is interpreted by search engines. I am having a hard time finding out the right information, could anyone point me in the correct direction or maybe give some knowledge? Best regards, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Zoom Layouts
Hi Mike, Seems that making user's aware of what 'zoom', 'single column', 'high/low contrast', 'low graphics' or any of the other alternatives is another issue like that of educating new users about browser 'Text size' options. From personal experience, when first stumbling upon issues of web standards / accessibility etc. links like 'XHTML' and 'CSS' (as links to online validation services) and the 'AAA' ratings for accessibility were less than clear. Although it would be great to think otherwise, *task-focused* users rarely follow a link or click a button 'out of curiosity'. Perhaps 'Zoom' has been borrowed from the Microsoft Word interface for magnifying the page. Further to this, 'What do I know' [1] uses common wysiwyg interface convention to signal that page layout can be customised. From a graphical perspective the issue is indicating the change that will be affected by choosing a layout 'option'. Using 'What do I know' as an example, the various-sized 'T's are an effective illustration of what their activation will achieve: an increase or decrease in type size. Perhaps an icon that indication of a single column (maybe with an obviously enlarged 'T')? The irony is that icon-i-fying the Zoom display preference is likely to make it smaller, and assuming the feature is to cater to people with visual impairment, the option may well be overlooked. A companion issue is the consideration of user expectations: that websites are often perceived as more akin to a printed page than an application. As such (at least in the usability tests we've conducted) the user's expectation is that the page is 'the way it should be' and the concept of customising layout or display is still alien/novel. The point raised by Patrick is also interesting, namely that we should recognise that the user experience is not solely the domain of web authors. While (admittedly with the best of intentions), we attempt to build layout controls into content, there are dedicated programs developed to improve the browsing experience for users with specific accessibility requirements. References [1] What do I know http://whatdoiknow.org Cheers, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Zoom Layouts
That's what makes selecting a suitable representation difficult. With a 'T' and magnifying-glass icon, would the user expect to have their layout transformed from 2 or 3 columns to a single column or a high/low contrast layout? Perhaps the type size, layout and contrast options should be separated as is usually the case with monitor setting controls (brightness, contrast, etc.). A point raised (by a non-WSG member) is also to consider the length of time a user will spend on a website. Obviously an unknown quantity, but the typical expectation of web content seems to be the 'quick fix', e.g. enter a term into a search engine, link to the page, find the info, move on. Display controls pre-suppose extended browsing of a single website, to the extent that the user would seek to customise the interface. This is why such controls are perhaps better left to browser developers; to ensure a consist/usable experience *across websites* rather than rely on controls that may or may not be available on a site-by-site basis. Might I suggest a magnifying glass over the 'T', or a '+' as an icon? -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point.
Hi Julián, There's no reason to avoid Verdana. In the example webpage you referenced, the author's chief concern seems to be with what happens to copy legibility if Verdana is *not* installed. As Verdana comes bundled with a significant number of Microsoft products and the Windows operating system [1], a user would need to actively remove Verdana from their computer before this would be an issue. I'm assuming that the such users would also have the requisite skills to adjust text size and/or define their own style sheet. Other users that do not either use Windows or Microsoft products probably fall into the category of 'technology enthusiasts' and may be more likely to be those with a tendency to customise their own interface. The 'attractiveness' of Verdana is matter of preference, as is the optimal size that copy should be set at. One of the more interesting points about Verdana is that it was designed specifically for onscreen legibility (unlike Times New Roman, Arial, etc.) The design of the typeface is such that the apparent letterform (bitmap) changes significantly depending on the size it is set at. The typeface was also intentionally designed with larger counters (the negative space insize the letterforms) for the same reason. As Mike mentions, the most productive point to take from the webpage is to enable text to be resized, i.e. to avoid non-relative sizing methods such as pixels, points, etc*. REFERENCES [1] http://www.microsoft.com/typography/fonts/default.aspx * Yes the W3C describes pixels as a relative unit, however it is more accurate to consider that this 'relative' quality only exists in terms of contrasting outputs: paper vs. screen, or screen resolution, i.e. beyond the browser experience. Cheers, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] H1 content
Hi Damien,
We recommend reserving the h1 to describe the page content. Perhaps on the
homepage and the 'About us' page this might be the same as the website name.
Should you want to include the site name on the page, we recommend appending it
to title text instead. For example, if the page is on 'New Zealand Postal
History 101' and your site is 'United Philatelists', the title element would be:
titleNew Zealand Postal History 101 | United Philatelists/title
See our glossary entry for more on the title element:
http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/meta.php
Both in terms of both SEO and download speed (and as speed translates to
improved user experience), shorter, topic-centric pages are preferred.
What is often overlooked in discussion of the use of h1, is that of the
overall user experience/content. Namely: What encourages a user to link to a
webpage from a search engine results page (aside from relevance ranking)? Is it
on the basis of the site owner rather than, or above the page content? While
the site owner (effectively the 'publisher') may recommend one webpage above
another, 'declaring' the site owner in the webpage h1 does not appear to
server the needs of the user.
That said, there are a number of content distinctions that XHTML does not have
a dedicated element for, and 'site owner' /'site name' is one of them.
(Re: Andy Budd's blog.) As to whether there should be more than one h1
element per page, that depends on how you choose to break-up ('chunk') content.
Sometimes it is beneficial to create a single page multi-screen document, for
example when the page is likely to be printed. In such cases, each h1 is
likely to correspond to a 'chapter heading'.
Perhaps there are assistive technology (e.g. screen reader) considerations
someone would like to add? What is the impact on the user experience of
'announcing' the site owner when each page loads? (Positive or negative.)
I've read different opinions on what should be in the h1, and there are a
number of different options/practices.
1. Site title (ex. John's website)
2. Page/document title (ex. Contact me)
3. Combination (ex. John's website - Contact me)
4. Something else?
Which do you think is the most appropriate? Or does it depend on the site?
å
--
Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director
Motive | web.design.integrity
http://www.motive.co.nz
ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693
mob: 021 369 693
93 Rintoul St, Newtown
PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand
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Re: [WSG] Width defaulting to 100%?
Hi Kara, Unlike a td, a div will expand to fill the available space (and not the content it contains), if a width is not specified. To achieve the layout you describe, you will need to: -set widths on the divs, and/or -set left or right margins to accommodate both divs, for example if div [A] is 20px width then div [B] should have a left margin of 21px. This tutorial might help: http://www.456bereastreet.com/lab/developing_with_web_standards/csslayout/2-col/ , otherwise try googling: 'CSS 2 col layout'. For some reason, both divs are expanding horizontally to take up all the available space, even when the content inside them is only 20 pixels wide. I'm not specifying any widths because the content is dynamic so I have no way of knowing what the width will be. The only width I have specified is the container width of 60em. Why are they doing this? Shouldn't they only expand horizontally to make room for whatever is contained in them - in this case only a few words? Cheers, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
I thought it was a quite descriptive name for an old bug. Must be a
flaw in my Norwenglish... :-)
Your Norwenglish is good. Much better than my Englegen. I'd just
never heard the bug name before so was curious.
I normally just do
body {
font-size: 62.5%;
}
The size everything else as ems.
I officially don't care about Opera so am happy to avoid using 100.0%;
Yours
Andy Budd
http://www.andybudd.com/
01273 241355
07880 636677
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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Christian Montoya wrote: It gets worse... W3C gave you a CSS ERROR, which means they checked your site just as you were editing, I'm sure... so the name is wrong, the listing is wrong, and now you are disqualified from the featured list. Hate it when that happens! That's very odd. Anybody got any idea why the CSS validator should be throwing up an error on: line-height: 1; but is happy with line-height: 1.0; ? Looks like a bug in the validator to me. Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] CSS Validator Bug
It would seem that the CSS validator has a bug in its handling of
number values.
The CSS spec says that:
A number can either be an integer, or it can be zero or more
digits followed by a dot (.) followed by one or more digits.
So 1 and 1.0 are both valid numbers.
However if you run the following code through the validator:
http://www.andybudd.com/test/number.css
which contains
h3 {
line-height: 1.0
}
h4 {
line-height: 1;
}
It says that 1 is not a valid number and thus marks your code as
invalid!
Yours
Andy Budd
http://www.andybudd.com/
01273 241355
07880 636677
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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
I'd say so, but wouldn't the error have more to do with the fact that the value of line-height needs a unit of reference (px, % or em)? No, line height is one of the few properties that can take a number without a unit. The unit acts as a multiplier, whereas an em say, is based on the parent font size. So line-height: 1em; and line-height: 1; can produce very different results. In general, most people mean the latter, but use the former. Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Validator Bug
Might be worth reporting this to the validator people I did that straight off, but it turns out its already a known bug. Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
On 21 Sep 2005, at 00:56, Lindsay Evans wrote: Hi Andy, Site looks great, nice and clean. And don't listen to any of these 'the font is too big' comments, it's just about perfect for my aging eyes (great, now I feel old : Thanks. Glad you like it. * I kind of expected the entire green background of the navigation items to be clickable, not a biggy though. Yes, I agree. A few people have mentioned this so its on the todo list. Cheers Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
No surprise that you didn't find it. The bug is mentioned here and there, but not in great details, AFAIK. Even ALA has triggered that bug with their last re-design, so it is easy to get it wrong. As others have mentioned already: it's the 'em' on body that triggers that IE bug. More exactly, em-values less than 1.01 em is the usual trigger, while larger em-values on body may work just fine. A percentage-value on body is safe, regardless of value. 100.01% is fine, but any other value will do as well, as long as differences regarding the exact 'tip-over' points for converting em/% into px is taken into account so all browsers display text (more or less) in the same size to begin with. It doesn't matter whether 'em' or '%' are used for text-elements further in, since the IE-bug bug is only triggered on body itself. Thanks for the feedback on this IE bug. As I said I've not experienced this before, so I'm kind of intrigued. Out of interest, how does the bug manifest its self on our site? It seems that a lot of people know about it and know the fix. However there doesn't really seem to be much in the way of documentation. If anybody can find some URL's, I'd appreciate it. Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Screenshots of original page on IE6/win2K-pro, window w:700/h:860: -2: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/size_smallest.png -1: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/size_smaller.png 0: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/normal.png +1: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/size_larger.png +2: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/size_largest.png Apart from being able to accommodate any an all wishes for 'really large' or 'really small' text :-) this bug is one we better not trigger. That does suck. Bloody IE! I changed the font size on the body from ems to % early this morning, so would you mind letting me know if those screenshots were prior to the change, or if the problem is still there? Sorry to be a pain Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: BTW: can I keep/use those screenshots in case I want to write something about that old bug on my own site? They sure got the point through! As long as you mention that we fixed the problem and provide a link to the site, I don't see any problem with it. Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Suggestion #1: Spell-check We have gone over the site a couple of times, however nothing on the web is ever finished. If you've found some particular typos, it would be great if you could let me know what they are. Suggestion #2: Why 100% table design? You can't control the way your user sees your site. I have a 21 inch monitor and it stretches all the way across and is somewhat overwhelming. Um, its actually a pure CSS layout, so no tables were harmed. Part of the point of web standards in general is that the user and user agent have final control of the layout, not the designer. So if the page is too wide on a 21 inch monitor, why not reduce the window size? However I don't want to get into the whole fixed vs flexible layout debate or we'll be here all night :-) Suggestion #3: Font size it too big...try dropping the size a little. I know accessibility is a concern, but it coming off as trying too hard. Not trying hard at all. We liked the big fonts size partly for accessibility, but also partly because we were fed up with tiny designer sized fonts. I do wonder if the size is a little to big, especially on lower screen resolutions. However on large screen resolutions I think it works well. I guess if you personally find it too big, you could always knock it down a notch. This is just my opinion...I might be wrong, good job overall however. Always good to hear this kind of feedback as its a good way to test your beliefs and assumptions. Cheers PS - your personal website is quite nice however, clean, crisp, and the user will have the same experience every time they visit, regardless of the machine. Yes, I must sort that out. About due for a redesign :-) Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
On 20 Sep 2005, at 18:33, Damian Sweeney wrote: Hi Andy, Great look and feel. I like the font sizes, they're refreshingly readable. One wierd issue though. In Firefox on Debian (sarge), trying to use the mousewheel dies half way down the page. I usually only encounter problems like this with things like google ads and flash animations, but with those if I move the mouse away and resume using the wheel it works. With clearleft I can't continue to scroll at all with the wheel until I move the vertical scroll bar manually. It's a small issue to be sure, but if anyone can figure it out, I guess it would be the 'web-design supergroup' ;-). I'll check the behaviour on my Mac at work when I get in. Apparently it's a Firefox bug relating to overflow:auto. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=97283 Just went to check in a couple of other browsers - Opera is fine, but the site dropped off the radar when trying to test in anything else. Um, do you mean that the site doesn't work in any other browser other than Opera or Firefox? Can I ask what you tested it on? Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Q: do you trigger the 'extreme font-resizing bug' in IE/win on purpose? Sure makes 'largest' large enough, but 'smallest' ends up a bit too small. I have to be honest and admit that I haven't come across that bug before. Did a bit of a search but couldn't find any details. Could you elaborate? Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
A little on the boring side, where are the images, the site is just text. Well I wanted to make the logo spin, but the others thought it was a bad idea ;-) Seriously though, we will be adding pictures of us on the relevant about pages, as well as creating a case study area in the not too distant future to highlight interesting work. However I do think that the site is about the text rather than superfluous images, so we wanted to put the content at the forefront of the site. Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Sorry, my bad. I should have been clearer. The site failed to load from about 3:30am Melbourne for a couple of hours. Can't remember when it came back, but when it did the site worked well on other browsers. Phew, had me worried there for a second. I guess our servers must have got stuck with all the traffic from the WSG :-) Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] tabbing through links
Watch out for IE keyboard navigation bug. Depending on your method for setting the destination anchor, things can go a little awry. For details, see: http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/anchor.php Cheers, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy
Title: Re: [WSG] accessibility - opening new windows philosophy Hi there, Could be that this discussion has drifted toward usability rather than accessibility. Accessibility considerations would be ensuring that users are advised of what will happened when they activate the link, either than the document would be opened in a new window, or that it will be downloaded. Also that opening a new window does not adversely effect users accessing a website with assistive technologies (screen readers, etc.). As to user expectation, it all depends on context. Some forms of content, such as blogs and forums are 'riddled' with pop-up windows, users exposed to such content quickly become familiar with pop-ups. As an interface design philosophy, ceding control to the user is your best bet. (This also extends to enabling text to be resized, fluid/elastic layout, etc.). In the case of pop-ups, only opening documents in new windows prevents an experienced user from controlling the browser behaviour. Indicating that a link will open in a new window is a good start, providing both a popup and non-popup link may be safer (see below). As an aside, some browsers have difficulty opening documents in new windows, when the document is a not a recognised content type. As a document like a PDF is not either a 'webpage' or inline content (such as a GIF or JPEG), the browser may only open a blank window (without downloading the document). REFERENCES Popup windows (Motive Glossary) Philosophy. Common reasons for using pop-ups, etc. http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/popup.php WAI Checkpoint 10.1 Until user agents allow users to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows to appear and do not change the current window without informing the user. http://www.w3.org/WAI/wcag-curric/sam77-0.htm So, I told my co-workers that I would throw this out to the standards community. Try to ignore any bias I may have. I would appreciate any honest feedback about whether we should open new windows for .pdf, .doc, .ppt, xls, .visio, or .whatever. Cheers, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand
Re: [WSG] 'strong' as class name
Hi tee,
.strong {
font: 1em bold #369 Arial, San Serif
text-transform: uppercase;
text-decoration: none;}
The font shorthand doesn't include a color property. Your rule should
look like this:
.strong {
color: #369;
font: bold 1em Arial, sans-serif;
text-transform: uppercase;
text-decoration: none;
}
Note that the second font family is 'sans-serif' (with an 's' and hyphen).
HTML
Also a bug in the HTML, you open a span but close a strong.
pspan class=strongStrong/strong is bold/p
/div
Should be:
pspan class=strongStrong/span is bold/p
FURTHER READING
http://www.devarticles.com/c/a/Web-Style-Sheets/CSS-shorthand-at-a-glance/2/
Cheers,
--
Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director
Motive | web.design.integrity
http://www.motive.co.nz
ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693
mob: 021 369 693
93 Rintoul St, Newtown
PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand
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**
[WSG] Lynx current navigation state presentation
Title: Lynx current navigation state presentation Hi there, LYNX CURRENT NAV STATE PRESENTATION Regarding feedback provided by ¸ukasz, to the use of em vs i elements in Lynx... I *use* i and b. CSS has nothing to do with it. Does anyone have a preference/recommendation for how the currently selected navigation state should be presented in Lynx? Is it using a leading ASCII character, b or i element? Cheers, -- Andy Kirkwood | Creative Director Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ph: (04) 3 800 800 fx: (04) 970 9693 mob: 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown PO Box 7150, Wellington South, New Zealand
Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
I can't see what the point is. The W3C has no control over Java or many other technologies that are proprietry or closed, but that does not stop them from becoming or meeting W3C standards or compliance. The original question asked why the W3C hadn't written a spec for Flash. My answer still stands that it's not theirs to write a spec for. However If you can show me the W3C page that details the Java spec I may change my mind :-) Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 Come see me speak at @Media2005 in London, England, 9-10th Jun. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
Nancy Johnson wrote: Is it true that the W3C has not done a spec for Flash? If that is so why? Because Flash is a proprietary product! Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 Come see me speak at @Media2005 in London, England, 9-10th Jun. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] New Zealand Government Web Guidelines
Hi, NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT WEB GUIDELINES I posted to the group late last year regarding formal implementation guidelines that refer to web standards. Mostly these are created by public sector (government) or government-related organisations. For those interested, we've just added a developer's introduction to the New Zealand Government guidelines to our glossary. http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/nz-web-guidelines.php The guidelines themselves provide an interesting take on web-based communication and could be useful for those grappling with reconciling standards with practise. Cheers, -- Andy Kirkwood (04) 3 800 800, 021 369 693 93 Rintoul St, Newtown, Wellington ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Actual Page Dimensions[revised]
Hi Chris, Is there an article of chart outlining subtractions from design dimensions for browser chrome and optional bars. My current design is 800x600 for centering horizontally. Intuition begs some appearance of a horizontal and/or vertical scroll bar on some UA. I'm aware these will appear in Browser Cam, but was hoping for a preventative approach. I've goggled, perhaps asking the wrong question. Would some knowledgeable colleague assist? We have a minimum available screen size by monitor dimension chart as part of our glossary [1] (as part of an entry on the concepts of above the fold). Our entry includes a 'screen-guide': a background image you can use to resize your browser window to emulate the minimum visible screen size, i.e. assuming all browser elements and systems menubars are displayed. Note that the figures used are based on a Webmonkey article: Sizing up the browsers [2]. Although browsers have changed since 1999-2000 the trend seems to be toward less rather than more chrome, so should still be a useful starting point. [1] http://www.motive.co.nz/glossary/fold.php [2] http://webmonkey.wired.com/webmonkey/99/41/index3a_page2.html?tw=design Cheers, -- Andy Kirkwood Motive | web.design.integrity http://www.motive.co.nz ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] [on-topic]wireframes
Iva Koberg wrote: What's stopping you from creating the prototype boxes in XHTML + CSS? It has the added advantage of meaning that once you've got your layout, you've also got your document structure. Just add the content and remove the border: 1px solid black; properties and you're done. One of the points of using prototypes is that they are fast to build and thus desposable. If you're using XHTML/CSS prototypes there is the temptation to turn it into the final template. This either means that you spend too long thinking about the code/structure of a prototype that is likely to change, or you end up building in issues due to the fact that the prototype was built rapidly. I tend to use low-fi wireframes then hi-fi prototypes, usually output from the Phtoshop/Fireworks templates as regular table based HTML. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] validation logos - kitemarks?
I think most people put validation logos on their sites for peers. This is often just vanity/showing off. However other web developers do click these logos and report back if they find problems, so they can have their benefits. I know, I know, we should al make sure our pages validate when they have been changes, but sometimes it's easy to forget, especially as most of the time it's not relay mission critical. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web counters
On Tuesday 22 February 2005 18:33, Kornel Lesinski wrote: On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:16:17 -0800, InfoForce Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hope this is not off topic. If it is, reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED] What is a good web standards web counter to add to a web site to monitor web site hits. Some counters will say that hitting the back button to go back as a web site hit. A client would like to see how many times the web site I built is accessed. There are a few different ways to do this: 1. Use a script that is already written (search the web) 2. Write your own counter The easiest one uses a text file to keep track of visitors But you can also have it update and use a MySql database It can output nothing to the users or a text count or even a live made image you can code wether or not you want a hit counter or a visitor counter (hit means inc 1 everytime the page is requested) (visitor means unique ip in a given timeframe - like 24hrs) 3. Like said by Kornel Lesinski use Webalizer If you want I can give you my counter script. --just let me know -- even if you decide not to use it, you can learn from it. With kind regards Andy -- Registered Linux User Number 379093 Now listening to [silence] -- Feel free to check out these few php utilities that I released under the GPL2 and that are meant for use with a php cli binary: http://www.vlaamse-kern.com/sas/ -- pgpGzq7tqi35D.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [WSG] Quirks DTD
I think what would be more interesting is if browsers let you set your rendering mode (quirks vs standards). This would be really useful for testing purposes. However it would be even more useful when writing user stylesheets. I wrote an accessible user stylesheet a while back that changed text site and contrast, linarized tables etc. It worked fine on sites with a strict dtd. However most of the sites I tested didn't have a dtd, throwing the browser into quirks mode and screwing up my custom stylesheet. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Standard this
Hi I was just thinking Why not include a 'browser-build' selector in css? Obviously different browsers will all have their own quircks and giving the designer better control on what style gets displayed on what browser will leave designers with less excuses of building mono browser websites Kind regards Andy -- Registered Linux User Number 379093 Now listening to Top! Radio Live Stream -- Feel free to check out these few php utilities that I released under the GPL2 and that are meant for use with a php cli binary: http://www.vlaamse-kern.com/sas/ -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Help on bug
On Sat February 12 2005 12:53, ::dotcompals:: wrote: img src='http://127.0.0.1:1030/bug.cgi' Well my dear boy. In order to fix this bug you will need to upload the image to the Geocities server. In your account directory and change the src part of the image so that it points to the uploaded file. http://127.0.0.1 means that the image is on your computer and that it is served by an application that listens on port 1030 If you really have a public server running then in order to fix your bug you should change the 127.0.0.1 to the ip addres (or domainname) of the pc that is running the server With kind regards Andy --- Feel free to check out these few php utilities that I released under the GPL2 and that are meant for use with a php cli binary: http://www.vlaamse-kern.com/sas/ Registered Linux user number 379093 --- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: XHTML Strict alternative to ol start=11
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Sorry, ended up being a cyclic argument, but you see what I mean...and *that's* what Andy meant (if I may be so bold as to make an educated guess) That's exactly what I meannt. Go for your life :-) Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: XHTML Strict alternative to ol start=11
Ian Fenn wrote: Thanks for that, Douglas. Unfortunately my client has accessibility guidelines that insist the pages are built in XHTML Strict. So what do they believe the accessibility advantages of XHTML Strict are? As far as I'm aware valid and semantically correct HTML is just as accessible as XHTML strict. And I'm guessing they probably aren't serving their pages up as XML so strictly speaking they are serving their pages up as HTML anyway. This kind of pettiness and misunderstanding of accessibility really gets my goat. It's a damn shame if you ask me ;-) Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ p.s. no real goats were harmed in this email ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Browser Checks
On Tue February 8 2005 09:22, Andrew Krespanis wrote: What kind of make believe web do you design for? Every day I deal with horribly incorrect (according to spec) rendering across all but the latest of browsers -- and before you respond, I can assure you the code in question is clean as driven snow (well, valid at least :p). Well I suggest you name names and show examples of compliant html 4.01 that doesn't show 100% of the intented content and doesn't at least resemble like what you intented. Remember that the most important part of your webpages are to provide content. If your content is worth it, people will return regardless of little design issues. Unless your '90% of browsers' refers to the browsers used by 90% of your traffic and not 90% of the browsers available (of which there are over 30 semi-common ones, to my knowledge) Possibly but those 30 semi common ones are almost always based on a common engine (like Geko, Mozilla, etc) and their quircks mode will horribly deform your pages thats why it's so important to set doctype and use coding that forces them to stick to standards compliant mode and not their quircks mode. Your reference to worms is misplaced. Obiviously your opinion differs from mine but that is no reason for insults or insinuations. Andy --- Registered Linux user number 379093 --- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Browser Checks
Hi Altough others may use other standards, I for one don't care all that much about browser percentage. HTML 4 exists more then 10 years now and users with browsers that don't understand HTML 4 can't be all that interested in your site anyway. So with this in mind, I set my doctype to 4.01 transitional and use the w3c validator to check that my code and css is 100% compliant Making sure your code is compliant is more important then hunting down a few pixel displacements between browsers. If your code is compliant then just about every browser out there will be able to generate it with a 90% accuracy regarding design and 100% accuracy regarding content.echo opened $what; With love Andy --- Registered Linux user number 379093 --- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cover me -- I'm gonna be naughty!
Ted Drake wrote: But if we need to do it to be competitive, would this at least protect those that are innocent, the people who need to use screenreaders? I've an idea. Quite a few people run personal sites that allow people to leave comments. You could create a script that automatically leaves comments on their site along with a link. That way you'd inherit some of their Google juice. Another method would be to send lots of emails to random people. If you send enough you are bound to find somebody interested in your products. I mean, if you need to be competitive you should really explore all the options. :-) Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards?
designer wrote: - Speed Development Hey - she'll be expecting me to reduce my prices next year! :-) If you're pricing is time based, reducing the amount of time spent on coding could mean that you increase the time you spend on design, IA, SEO and other activities that provide the client with a better ROI. If your pricing is value based, it's good for the client because they will get their site 2 weeks earlier, meaning tow weeks extra benefit and two weeks less of their precious time wasted. - Simplify Maintenance, Increase Opportunity Ditto! Ditto above. Time based - spend more time on things that provide a greater ROI. Value based - their site is down for shorter lengths of time and can react quicker to market changes - Open Up Access Options OK - Reduce Bandwidth Costs Not relevant - small site, with folk increasingly being on a high speed line. Here in UK (where it's called Broadband) the user pays a standard fee, no matter how much/how long he/she uses it. (that's for small/simple sites, of course) This is about how much your hosting company charges your client, not how much the site visitors ISP's charge. Hosts will often charge £X over the YGB they give with their standard package. For most sites this isn't an issue but it is for popular sites. - Improve User Experience How? Speed? Broadband again - makes it MUCH less of an issue. Download times still do matter, even if you're on broadband. Also the more people that get broadband the more contention issues will come into play. However more than actual download speed is perceived download speed. Slow and unresponsive pages can often be down to rendering as much as they can actual download speed. In my experience, (and this is far from scientific) sites using CSS for layout appear to render faster than nested table layouts. Turning that on it's head, what's left for a client to get excited about? Fats loading, accessible pages that Google will love. Supplier independence, easier maintenance and faster time to market. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Search Engines and CSS
On 28 Jan 2005, at 01:28, Mike Pepper wrote: Take a look at some fought over keyphrases like 'website development' in Google UK. You'll find many sites spamming with irrelevant noscript, off-screen absolute positioned text, minute text, hidden layers, even some cretins with WOW (white-on-white) text. And you know what? Google doesn't do a damn thing about it. I think that's a bit unfair. It's a bit like complaining that the police do nothing about crime in your area when none of the residents can be bothered to report it. If you see a site which use dubious methods to gain a ranking advantage, contact Google and complain. I've a friend who's a professional SEO and one of the main things he and many of his colleagues do is report dubious sites. If after a month or so nothing has been done about it, then complain about it. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Search Engines and CSS
Mike Pepper wrote: I have sent literally hundreds of mails to Google illustrating exactly what the miscreants are doing and how. I take SEO seriously and know most if not all the techniques. They have never responded in any way other than their automated responders. I eventually gave up in the knowledge that I was wasting my time and energy. It's not unfair; it's my experience over the past 3 years. Sorry Mike, I got the wrong end of the stick there. I thought you were complaining about them not automagically picking up on spamdexing. While I'm not surprised that you didn't get a personal response I am a little surprised that the sites in question haven't been penalised. I wonder if you report your competition to Google and they do nothing about it, you'd have a case for suing them for loss of earnings? This lack of responsiveness gives unscrupulous SEO's an good incentive to spam Google while hurting the more honest SEO's out there. Now where did I put my list of keywords, my doorway pages and my cloaking scripts? Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility statements
The Bo$$ wrote: I really don't think accesskeys are all that good for accessiblity though. See http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2005/01/04/im_still_off/ I think that's a matter of opinion. If you use numbers for your accesskeys the conflicts are fairly limited. Even if few people use them, they aren't doing any harm. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a good accessibility primer
Justin Thorp wrote: http://www.digital-web.com/articles/accessibility_from_the_ground_up/ I did a presentation on Accessibility the other night. If you're interested, here are my lecture notes. http://www.andybudd.com/presentations/skillswap05/accessibility/ Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] empty named anchors
Title: Re: [WSG] empty named anchors
One reason why you might not want to have content inside of an
anchor would be because of the implementation of stylesheets (or more
accurately how style rules have been specified).
For example if a hover rule is written for to the a
element it will be applied to content enclosed in the anchor tag (as
well as linked text).
a:hover {color: #900;}
I have come across a couple of instances of this where headings
have been enclosed in an anchor, i.e.
a name=anchor
id=anchorh1Heading
text/h1/a
This causes the text colour of the heading to change when
moused-over (although not a link). From an interface perspective this
can be quite confusing. (A feedback cue that suggests interaction is
possible when it is not).
Cheers
--
Andy Kirkwood
Motive | web.design.integrity
http://www.motive.co.nz
