Re: [WSG] Expected behaviour of links to external websites

[matt andrews]

On 20 December 2011 13:09, Alex Mironov
 wrote:
[snip]
> I was wondering if anyone had any views/resources as to whether users should 
> remain in the same window or should be taken to a new window/tab when they 
> click on an external link?

Short answer: don't open new windows/tabs (unless you have a really
good reason).

Reason 1: it's da law! (if you're subject to WCAG 2.0 accessibility
requirements, e.g. Australian Govt) ... e.g.
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G200 (well, ok, not strictly da law,
but clearly bad practice for many accessibility use cases and likely
to fail accessibility audits.)

Reason 2: opening new windows/tabs by default basically says "welcome
to 1999!"  If you're fine with that, go right ahead ;)


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Re: [WSG] search page vallidation

[Matt Fellows]

Marvin,

I believe someone mentioned it earlier, but removing the  tags just
prior to the  tag should resolve the issues that you are having with
xhtml validation.

Cheers,
Matt


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Re: [WSG] The 'Some Links for Light Reading' posts

[matt andrews]

Absoutely, I'll echo that.  There are some real gems in there.  Thanks, Russ.

2009/9/23 Susie Gardner-Brown :
> Hi there
>
> I’d just like to send a big thank you to Russ Weakley for taking the time to
> collate and send this to WSG Announce each week! I always find really
> interesting stuff there, and usually bookmark a couple of links from it.
>
> So, thanks Russ – it’s really appreciated!
>
> Cheers
> susie
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Re: [WSG] Accessible websites

[matt andrews]

2009/7/8 Dennis Lapcewich :
>
>>> Dennis Lapcewich wrote:
>>> >>> While I agree with your general sentiment, I have to say I find
>>> >>> the assertion that all people aged 35-40 or more are "for all
>>> >>> intents and purposes [...] web disabled and [...] in immediate
>>> >>> need of web accessibility" questionable, to say the least.
>>> >>>
>
> I did not write the above.  Please do not attribute to me another's comments
> in this accessibility thread.  Please make sure you attribute correctly so
> as to avoid a misquote, at best, or disingenuous intent, at worst.  My
> original comment concerned itself with a medical condition that in time,
> literally affects 100 percent of the human population.  While onset of
> presbyopia is often described in the literature in the 40s and later, it is
> not unheard of to have symptoms beginning at age 35-40.

Dennis is quite right - I wrote the quoted "While I agree with your
general sentiment..." sentence. Have to be careful with those indents
and attributions.

I stand by my comment, by the way: while I strongly agree that
accessibility is a core aspect of web design, extrapolating "it's not
unheard of to have symptoms beginning at age 35-40" to "[all people
aged 35-40 or more are] for all intents and purposes [...] web
disabled and [...] in immediate need of web accessibility" is clearly
overstating the case.  It's unnecessary, as the case for good
accessibility is very strong anyway, and only gets weakened by making
exaggerated claims.


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Re: [WSG] Installing More than one version of IE6

[matt andrews]

2009/7/3 Matijs :
> For what it's worth.
> Microsoft have—for several years now—offered free Windows
> XP images with IE6/7/8RC and now IE8 as well in Microsoft Virtual PC format.
> Microsoft Virtual PC (the application) is also available for free, making
> this the most acurate and low-cost option available. The only drawback is
> that these images are time-bombed and only work for about 3-4 months.
> However, new ones are usually available as soon as the old ones expire.
> You can find the current images here:
> http://www.microsoft.com/Downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=21eabb90-958f-4b64-b5f1-73d0a413c8ef&displaylang=en

Note that the link to Virtual PC on that page goes to the Windows 7
version; the XP/Vista version (Virtual PC 2007) is here:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=04D26402-3199-48A3-AFA2-2DC0B40A73B6&displaylang=en

It will not run on any of the "Home" editions of Windows; you must
have "Professional", "Enterprise" or "Ultimate".

(not an endorsement, by the way... more of a warning.)


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Re: [Spam] :RE: [WSG] Accessible websites (was: accessible free web hosting account)

[matt andrews]

2009/7/2 Dennis Lapcewich :
>
> If you are unsure that web accessibility should play a role, take this test.
>  In a group of people have everyone stand up.  Those who are unable to stand
> may remain seated.  Now pose these three requests, in order:
>
> 1)  If you are wear glasses, contacts and/or have had corrective eye
> surgery, please sit down.
> 2)  Of those who remain standing, if you know for a fact you are
> color-blind, please sit down.
> 3)  Of those who now remain standing, everyone aged 35-40 or more, please
> sit down.
>
> Those who are left standing have little to no "immediate" need for web
> accessibility, but they will in time.  Of those who sat down, while many
> (most?) may not meet a legal definition as being "disabled,"  for all
> intents and purposes they are web disabled and are in immediate need of web
> accessibility.

While I agree with your general sentiment, I have to say I find the
assertion that all people aged 35-40 or more are "for all intents and
purposes [...] web disabled and [...] in immediate need of web
accessibility" questionable, to say the least.

I'd be careful of overstating the case like this, as it can undermine
the whole argument.


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Re: [WSG] website fonts

[matt andrews]

2009/6/22 Mark Harris 
> The biggest cost I have seen in web design since 1996, when I started, is the 
> perceived need to make the web like the printed page. That, and the desire to 
> make it pixel-identical in multiple browsers.
>
> Let the control go to the user, focus on getting information out there. You 
> can't control everything, just make it make sense.

Absolutely.  This is probably old hat (where did *that* phrase come
from?) to most on this list, but if you haven't come across it before,
"A Dao of Web Design", a short article by John Allsopp (of  Westciv
and Web Directions fame) is a must-read:

http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dao/


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Re: [WSG] returning to scroll position in a table inside a fixed hight div

[matt andrews]

2009/6/15 raven :
>> Keep in mind as always that a JavaScript solution will not work in
>> user agents not running JavaScript,
>>which can include search engines,
>> mobile devices, assistive technology, browsers in certain corporate
>> contexts in which JavaScript is globally turned off or stripped out
>> of incoming pages by firewalls, old browsers, and modern browsers
>> used by folks who turn it off for whatever reason.
>
> Hmmm... what exactly problem can cause using of JavaScript *in this case* 
> from SEO point of view?
> Or what browser, *witch you really support*, don't support JS?
> And what part of your target auditory even know how to disable JavaScript 
> execution in their browsers?
> Don't use common words! Give us facts, numbers, tests.

Here's a number for you: when I added JS usage stats gathering about a
year ago to a large site I was working on, I was quite surprised to
find that 10% (rounded to the nearest percent) of unique users were
not running Javascript.  This was one of the major net dating sites in
Europe, with > 1 million membership, so it was a fairly mainstream (as
opposed to tech/webdev) user population.

Many mobile browsers don't support JS. Many corporate networks enforce
JS being turned off.  Search bots typically don't support JS.  Short
answer: you cannot rely on JS being there.

The smart approach is always "progressive enhancement": build the
basic, semantic (x)html version first, exposing all the key
functionality via basic semi-RESTful html, such that it works
effectively without images, CSS, JS/Ajax or other technologies such as
Flash.  Then add goodies for those that have them... you know the
drill.


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Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)

[Matt Morgan-May]

On 3/25/09 12:12 PM, "Rick Faircloth"  wrote:
> The correct design (and web standards that are adhered to or not)
> is that design for which the client is paying.

Sorry, but that just reads to me like a way to excuse slipshod work. It is
one thing to figure out any old way to collect the check, and quite another
to think out all the angles and produce something that reaches the largest
possible audience. I think the latter is far more professional, and all of
the people I now work with, and all the ones I think of as successful in web
design/dev, sweat those details.

I've personally refused jobs before based on the knowledge that
accessibility was being left out. So I know it can be done. Whether others
would do the same is a question of their own judgment, not their
professionalism.

> A standard could be imposed on all concerned that would make driving
> accessible to the blind...it certainly is technically possible...however,
> the cost is simply too high to make that a reality.

First off, no, it's not possible. The technology doesn't exist today, or
we'd all have self-driving cars already.

Though what this has to do with pragmatic accessibility for web pages, which
is generally a low-cost proposition for most of what's out there, is beyond
me. Making content more accessible is not a boil-the-ocean strategy. Most of
the basics for web accessibility take little work, and are easy to integrate
into the average dev's everyday tasks. The only time it can be really costly
is when it's been ignored the whole time the work was being done.

> Likewise

(...in that they are both referenced sequentially in one email...)

> site owners may be under time and monetary restraints that
> prohibit making their websites accessible to all.  Or they may just choose
> not to...again, it's the boss's choice, not the designer's.

So, let me boil this down: web accessibility is like blind people driving.

Wow.

I think the only thing they may have in common is your willingness to
contemplate them as an implementer. Which is fine, in and of itself. I'm not
the boss of you. But if you're trying to equate the task of following a few
best practices with reinventing the world's transportation infrastructure,
well, good luck with that.

-
m



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Re: [WSG] macpro and softwares..

[Matt Morgan-May]

Try ies4osx. I haven't, but have heard it works:
http://www.kronenberg.org/ies4osx/

As for software, I'm partial to Dreamweaver. And Contribute. And Flex Builder. 
:) But I've also heard good things about Aptana, and I've been happy with 
TextWrangler, which did all I used BBEdit for, free.

-
m

On 3/5/09 10:32 AM, "Naveen Bhaskar"  wrote:

Hi,

I used to work in a windows system and now I am working in a macbook pro. how 
can I test my webpages for IE. Is there any IE installers available for mac?
Also pls let me know what are the softwares available for a UI developer for 
Mac.

thanks a ton in advance..


thanks and regards

Naveen Bhaskar
cell: +91.9740082166
Bangalore

navidesigns 




Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0!  Click here. 

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Re: [WSG] Javascript & Accessibility

[Matt Morgan-May]

As someone who's on the working group producing ARIA, I have to say the
editors have done a pretty remarkable job in terms of documenting a
specification that hasn't even advanced past Working Draft.

First, there's the spec itself:
http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/

Then there's the User Agent Implementation Guide, for browser developers to
follow:
http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/

And the Best Practices Guide, for authors:
http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/

In addition, Steve Faulkner, also in the PFWG, has done lots of writing on
the subject:
http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?cat=23

And Universal Design for Web Applications, the book I co-wrote with Wendy
Chisholm, has a more basic introductory chapter on ARIA. The point is, it
may not all have a W3C banner at the top, but generally speaking, W3C is
more responsible for being complete and precise, than being prosaic. I
expect that the Web Standards Curriculum is most likely to have
author-friendly material on ARIA, and that's only when the spec is stable
enough for general consumption.

-
m

On 3/1/09 6:32 AM, "David Dixon"  wrote:
> although the WAI ARIA team (as with the W3C in
> general) need to start producing more palatable documentation rather
> than just having huge technical manuals on the subject.



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Re: [WSG] The notion of accessibility [was: Javascript & Accessibility]

[Matt Morgan-May]

On 3/2/09 3:15 PM, "Hassan Schroeder"  wrote:
> Matt Morgan-May wrote:
> 
>> Look at the Atlas project that was unveiled this week, as an example.
> 
> ref?

http://www.280atlas.com/

One of the developers is actually talking about ARIA right now:

http://rossboucher.com/2009/03/01/limitations-of-the-wai-aria/

-
m



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Re: [WSG] The notion of accessibility [was: Javascript & Accessibility]

[Matt Morgan-May]

On 3/2/09 2:00 PM, "Mathew Robertson"  wrote:
> So now a slight rant... I dont understand how:
> 
>   
> 
> is better than:
> 
>   
> 
> ?

Okay, this is a good question. The answer is that people often use
nonsemantic HTML, and that's a trend which, if anything, has increased with
modern web app development. Some people have developed controls (like
sliders, or tri-state checkboxes) which didn't exist in HTML, and others
have created controls which look and act like checkboxes, for example, which
have been done in some way other than .

Look at the Atlas project that was unveiled this week, as an example. The
way I understand it, they're going to throw semantic HTML out the window and
focus explicitly on visual design. ( Now, we can stand on the sidelines and
say don't do that, but look how far that's gotten us. However, using ARIA we
can (in theory, since I haven't actually seen the code Atlas generates yet)
pick a component and say, that blob of goo over there is a checkbox, that
one is a listbox, that's a combobox, those are menu items, and on and on.
And since assistive technology understands all of these roles, it can
explain them to the user, and broker the user's manipulation of those
objects.

Which isn't to say that for your basic form you should use exclusively ARIA
markup. Everything already in HTML uses those same roles. Semantic code is
still useful. ARIA just opens up those roles to other implementations, and
enables accessibility on widgets that HTML doesn't offer.

-
m



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Re: [WSG] Javascript & Accessibility

[Matt Morgan-May]

On 3/2/09 2:02 AM, "Mathew Robertson"  wrote:
> Its been possible to do ARIA style accessibility since about 1995 - its just
> now that people are starting to care.

Not sure what value you were hoping to add to the conversation, but MSAA,
the Windows accessibility API, didn't come out until April 1997. And that
much of what ARIA has to offer is actually enabled by the IAccessible2 or
User Interface Automation APIs, which are much more recent and
comprehensive. ARIA is a very ambitious spec, and a number of companies
contributing to its support in a very short period of time, relative to the
work that's necessary.

But, thanks for the cynicism! We don't get enough of that on the Internet
these days. :)

-
m



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Re: [WSG] Implication of empty divs

[Matt Morgan-May]

Andy's technically correct, and it's true that pointing to the main content of 
the document is good for accessibility, though not because of semantics so much 
as that you can point to it in a "Skip to main content" link. 
"id='mainContent'" doesn't communicate any semantics by itself. (That's 
something they're working on in HTML5: establishing roles for main content, 
etc.)

The real problem with  is the affliction known as div-itis, where block 
elements which could express semantics and/or which already have default layout 
properties (like ) are ignored in favor of . (Div-itis is also 
strongly correlated with span-itis, which is really more like a plague.)

-
m

On 2/10/09 3:22 PM, "Ben Lau"  wrote:

>From the "CSS Mastery Advanced Web Standards Solutions" book by Andy Budd, and 
>I quote:
"Many people mistakenly believe that a div element has no semantic meaning. 
However div actually stands for division and provides a way of dividing a 
document into meaningful areas. So by wrapping your main content area in a div 
and giving it an ID of mainContent, you are adding structure and meaning to 
your document."

But as far as i know, screen readers do not pick up IDs or classes? So even by 
declaring a div ID="mainNav", it's still not enough to describe what's inside 
the div?

I'm starting to get awfully confused...


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Re: [WSG] PDFs and other non-html files opening in a new browser window

[Matt Morgan-May]

On 2/5/09 1:30 PM, "Carolyn Diaz"  wrote:
> I know this is an old school type question, but we are very divided about
> this. The people on our usability team are with Nielsen, but others (like me)
> are not so sure. Isn't accessibility to new windows a problem as it changes
> the focus? What do you think?

I think you're better off loading the PDF in the same window. If a user
prefers to load PDFs in another window, it's likely that they want to load
it into Adobe Reader rather than an IE wrapper of the Reader plugin. Users
with that preference can use Reader's accessibility wizard to configure all
PDFs to be opened in Reader.

As far as accessibility is concerned, the big issue with opening new windows
is actually with windows being opened involuntarily, e.g. popups. (Even
then, it's only a Level AAA requirement in WCAG 2.) Using target on links is
not a problem--anymore.

And, what Lachlan said about marking PDF documents as PDFs. :)

-
m



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Re: [WSG] Users who deliberately disable JavaScript

[matt andrews]

2009/1/27 Patrick H. Lauke :
> As good as it is to hear anecdotal evidence from expert users such as list
> members here, I'd say it's much more important to bring some actual live
> user stats to the table.

Last time I checked JS stats (around 12 months ago) at the site I work
on (with membership of over 1 million and thousands of users per day -
just saying that to illustrate that the sample is large), 10% of
unique visitors did not have Javascript running.  I believe that would
not include many robots, as the point of detection for the stats was
after a search form submit.

I was shocked when I saw that, to be honest: I was expecting something
closer to 2 or 3 percent.


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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

[Matt Morgan-May]

On 1/14/09 5:38 AM, "Christie Mason"  wrote:
> Plus, I'd be curious as to availability of the Flex server in
> remote hosts. I haven't seen any offer it, is it still so pricey(?), but I
> also haven't been looking for it.

Flex hasn't been sold on a server basis since 1.5, which was released in
2004. Flex 3 was released as an open-source SDK, along with a commercial,
Eclipse-based IDE called Flex Builder (which, btw, is free for educational
users--as is ColdFusion).

-
m



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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

[Matt Morgan-May]

On 1/12/09 2:20 AM, "michael.brocking...@bt.com"
 wrote:
> Quote:" The fact is that many educators have found that they can use
> Flash to teach their students effectively."
> 
> I think you (and those teachers that you refer to) are mistaking an
> effective lesson, for effective teaching.*
[...]
> * It may be easier to teach people to use Flash to get a particular
> result, but at the end of the day they have not learned what they need
> to know, which is that "Flash is Evil".

If "evil" is all you have to say about Flash, then there's not much that can
be said. It's clearly not worth taking a reasoned approach to convince you
that it has merit as a classroom tool, despite the thousands of teachers and
millions of students using it.

> Also, I think you mis-understand where the problem lies. Because of the
> way that Flash works, almost all of it is inaccessible to assistive
> technology. 

I have to challenge that assertion, as the engineer who's principally
responsible for improving the accessibility of Flash. Having followed Flash
accessibility since it was first introduced (in 2002), I can tell you that
it has improved dramatically since that time, to the extent that I'd argue
accessible RIA development in Flash today is more efficient (and definitely
better-supported) than the same work done in Ajax.

ARIA will help Ajax get to where we are today, but then Ajax authors will be
in the same situation: most of them failing, usually unconsciously, to
produce accessible applications by default. When that's the case, will you
blame Ajax, or its frameworks, or the individual authors? Will Ajax be evil?

> Adobe could do a better job, the makers of assistive
> technology could do a better job

Great. I'm all ears. What should we do? So far, the impression that I get is
that we should give up. Flash being evil and all. But since we continue to
improve our accessibility, please feel free to send me your ideas.

> but there is very little that the man in the middle can do

This is the heart of the matter. It's just not true. Flash authors can do a
lot to be directly accessible to assistive technology. And bringing it all
back to the original message here, that's what BCAT's developers are trying
to do. What's wrong with more people producing more accessible Flash
content, other than you disliking Flash?

-
M



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Re: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest

[Matt Morgan-May]

On 1/10/09 8:26 AM, "Alan C Whiteman"  wrote:
> In the end, Flash is not only an obnoxious medium in 90% of its usage

...which is not a problem owing to the platform but rather its authors...
(Besides, that's consistent with Sturgeon's Law: "90% of everything is
crap.")

> it's technically bad for SEO.

...which isn't generally germane to learning management systems, given that
their users tend to be inside an intranet to begin with. In any case, Google
(among other engines) does in fact index Flash content, and has a list of
guidelines for doing so:

http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2008/06/improved-flash-indexing.h
tml

>> But if we don't have people pushing
>> that envelope, doesn't that make that statement self-fulfilling prophecy?
> 
> As a proprietary technology, Adobe can have the burden of making its
> technology better and more compliant.

You mean like settling on industry-standard audio and video formats, like
MP3 and H.264? We do that. SCORM support for our e-Learning products? That
too. Hey, maybe we could open-source the Flex language, including its
compiler:

http://opensource.adobe.com/flex

Whether that adds up to "better" or not isn't up to me to say. But it's not
the same platform it was 5 years ago, to be sure. Unfortunately, it's
usually argued over as though it were.

Thanks,
m



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# Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

[Matt Morgan-May]

Hi,

Excuse me for jumping in here, especially (in this case) as a Flash
partisan. But I fail to see how this kind of project can be anything other
than a good thing overall.

What I don't understand is why people are instantly critical of projects
that are actually attempting to increase access to new technology. I've
heard a constant drumbeat of "don't use Flash: it's inaccessible" in the
years I've been involved in the field. But if we don't have people pushing
that envelope, doesn't that make that statement self-fulfilling prophecy?
There are lots of us out there working on improving the accessibility of
both existing and future content authored in Flash.

There are many arguments to be made for HTML -- I made loads of them while
working for W3C, all of which I would stand by today -- but it is not all
things to all people. The fact is that many educators have found that they
can use Flash to teach their students effectively. I'm not an educator by
profession, but my wife is, and she prefers Flash over HTML/CSS/JS to
develop her courseware. If you were to tell her she's wrong, especially
before seeing what kind of work she does, I think you'd probably find
yourself dodging a couple shelves' worth of education texts. Telling a
professional their tools are wrong is not the most endearing of approaches.
In my opinion, the best one can do is to learn what they're doing, and offer
ways to make that output more efficient, more inclusive, and easier to
produce.

Teachers aren't usually web developers, and we shouldn't want them to be. So
I'm all for companies taking on the technical problems so teachers can be
teachers, and so on.

Thanks,
M
Accessibility Engineer, Adobe

Christie Mason said:
> Exactly right.  I've sadly watched Flash take over eLearning and still
> haven't figured out the attraction, except that it offers the control of PPT
> while appearing to be "rich".There's only a very few types of web sites
> that still use Flash for delivering primary content - media sites, those
> that focus more on "look at me" instead of  being a resource to their site
> guests, and eLearning.

> Since, supposedly, eLearning is about offering web based resources for
> learning it just doesn't make sense to me that it has ignored all the ways
> the web has supported, continues to support,  learning w/o using Flash.
> Flash on the web is like cooking with garlic.  A little adds depth, a lot is
> inedible.




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Re: [WSG] Reset form fields to default values when user clicks the refresh/reload button in there Browser, not on the page.

[Matt McKeon]

Brett Patterson wrote:

To Andrew:

What I am trying to do is get a form field to reset a value back to 
the default selected when a user clicks on the refresh or reload 
button in the browser, not the page (meaning I am not using type="reset" /> to reset the fields). So, for example, lets say this 
code is:




0
1
2
3




As you see the code above displayed in the browser, 0 will 
automatically be shown in the dropdown box (let's call it the 
default#). But, if the user changes the default# to let's say 2, and 
then decides to reset the page for whatever reason using the browser's 
default refresh or reload button, the user-selected 2, will change 
back to default# (or 0).





For a select element you can add the attribute selected="selected" the 
the  you want set by default. As for text inputs, you can just 
use value="Some Default Text" in the  and that will show when the 
page loads, or is reloaded.



HTH
-Matt


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Re: [WSG] Accessible and cross browser online slide system

[Matt Ryall]

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Raena Jackson Armitage <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Lisa,
> >
> > On behalf of other list members, any chance of turning return receipts
> off?
>
> The read receipt was requested by the original poster.
>

The software this list uses actually seems pretty bad at filtering out stuff
like this.

Good list management software strips out read-receipt headers [1] as well as
blocking the automated out-of-office messages that seem to plague this list.

Regards,
Matt

[1] For example, this is the mailman bug:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/265220


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Re: [ADMIN] THREAD CLOSED [WSG] XSLT: looping through ancestors looking for a specific node

[Matt Fellows]

I think the crowd has spoken on this one, clearly this thread should
remain OPEN.
Humblest apologies to Grant for any embarassment but I think that is all mine :)

Perhaps using XSLT as a programming language instead of what it should
be used for (see Apache Cocoon) has blurred my ability to see
Standards even when it hits me in the face.
I'll now go back to my corner...

Cheers,

-- 
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/


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[ADMIN] THREAD CLOSED [WSG] XSLT: looping through ancestors looking for a specific node

[Matt Fellows]

Sorry, Grant, this is off topic for this list.
Everyone, if you have a response for Grant please send it off list.

Cheers,

Matt

--
Matt Fellows
WSG Core Member

http://www.onegeek.com.au/


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Re: [WSG] To stretch an image within a div ??

[Matt 0000]

I completely understand everyone's comments on image enlargement using
professional graphic applications vs. browsers using their cheesy routines.
What I didn't know was if I had missed any use of proper techniques within
CSS to achieve what I needed.

My first post exposes the approaches I am familiar with, but with ample
hesitations. I did consider slicing a section of the image in say,
Photoshop, and using it to repeat the background within a different element.
I felt then, it was an unclean "approach", at least with the way I presented
it. If so, I would still like your (or anyone's) opinion on the "right" way
to do it. If you don't mind, please peek at my initial post while offering
your valuable opinions.

Regarding the use of CSS 3:


> So, if the image is smaller in width (like in my case), should I guess
> there's no way to stretch it without CSS 3 support ?
>
> Nope, not that I know of -- at least not as a background image. You can
>> clip them, you can repeat them, you can offset them... but you can't stretch
>> them.
>
>
>From what I've read so far, I believe you can. Please refer to the following
link:

http://webdesign.about.com/od/examples/l/blbgsizeexample.htm


Regards,
Mathew


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Re: [WSG] To stretch an image within a div ??

[Matt 0000]

Unfortunately, the link is intranet. I could perhaps attempt to post the
skeletal code of the test version, if it's really required.

>From your earlier email I'm starting to gather that if an image is wider
than the width of the div (or even browser window), auto-fitting isn't going
to be a problem. So, if the image is smaller in width (like in my case),
should I guess there's no way to stretch it without CSS 3 support ?


Thanks,
Mathew


On 7/6/08, Kepler Gelotte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  I can't help you without a link. Please reply to the list and not this
> email.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> *Kepler Gelotte*
>
> Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
>
> 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
>
> www.neighborwebmaster.com
>
> phone/fax: (732) 302-0904
>  --
>
> *From:* Matt  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 06, 2008 12:37 AM
> *To:* Kepler Gelotte
> *Cc:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] To stretch an image within a div ??
>
>
>
>
>
> Kepler,
>
> Thanks for the quick reply.
>
>
>
> I'm using a 3 column elastic design with a min-width of 54 em. The
> content div stretches like a hybrid does, but the left and right sidebars
> don't. The header and footer will stretch without a problem as well. The
> content is embedded between the sidebars and the header doesn't quite reach
> the window edges because of a dliberate 10px margin. Adding the CSS for
> clarity:
>
>
>
> div.leftSidebar {
>   width: 10em;
>   float: left;
> }
>
> div.rightSidebar {
>   width: 10em;
>   float: right;
> }
>
> div.content {
>   min-width: 30em;
>   margin-left: 10em;
>   margin-right: 10em;
> }
>
> div.footer {
>   clear: both;
> }
>
> I had tried chaning the width and overflow. No visible effects were
> observed.
>
> Have I logically omitted or overlooked something here ?
>
>
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Mathew
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7/5/08, *Kepler Gelotte* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Matt,
>
>
>
> If you stretch the  (you can't stretch a background-image as far as I
> know), you will definitely not be happy with the results.
>
>
>
> I am assuming you have a flexible design where the content expands to fit
> the width of the browser's window? If that is the case, create a very wide
> image and then use:
>
>
>
> div.header {
>   background-image: url(images/large_logo.gif);
>   background-repeat: no-repeat;
>
>   height: 200px;
>
>   width: 100%;
>   overflow: hidden;
>
> }
>
>
>
> You can see an example of this technique I used on a web site I created a
> while back: http://www.freightturntables.com
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> *Kepler Gelotte*
>
> Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
>
> 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
>
> www.neighborwebmaster.com
>
> phone/fax: (732) 302-0904
>
>
>
>
> ***
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> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>
>
>
>


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Re: [WSG] To stretch an image within a div ??

[Matt 0000]

Kepler,
Thanks for the quick reply.

I'm using a 3 column elastic design with a min-width of 54 em. The
content div stretches like a hybrid does, but the left and right sidebars
don't. The header and footer will stretch without a problem as well. The
content is embedded between the sidebars and the header doesn't quite reach
the window edges because of a dliberate 10px margin. Adding the CSS for
clarity:


div.leftSidebar {
  width: 10em;
  float: left;
}

div.rightSidebar {
  width: 10em;
  float: right;
}

div.content {
  min-width: 30em;
  margin-left: 10em;
  margin-right: 10em;
}

div.footer {
  clear: both;
}

I had tried chaning the width and overflow. No visible effects were
observed.

Have I logically omitted or overlooked something here ?



Thanks again,

Mathew





On 7/5/08, Kepler Gelotte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Hi Matt,
>
>
>
> If you stretch the  (you can't stretch a background-image as far as I
> know), you will definitely not be happy with the results.
>
>
>
> I am assuming you have a flexible design where the content expands to fit
> the width of the browser's window? If that is the case, create a very wide
> image and then use:
>
>
>
> div.header {
>   background-image: url(images/large_logo.gif);
>   background-repeat: no-repeat;
>
>   height: 200px;
>
>   width: 100%;
>   overflow: hidden;
>
> }
>
>
>
> You can see an example of this technique I used on a web site I created a
> while back: http://www.freightturntables.com
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> *Kepler Gelotte*
>
> Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
>
> 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
>
> www.neighborwebmaster.com
>
> phone/fax: (732) 302-0904
>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>


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[WSG] To stretch an image within a div ??

[Matt 0000]

My web page is divided into 5 parts: Header, Left Sidebar, Content, Right
Sidebar & Footer. Within the header, I wish to place a large logo, a mini
logo and a site name or company name in large text. Currently, the CSS I'm
using for the header is:

:
:
div {
  margin: 0;
  padding: 0;
  border: 1px dashed #00;  //This is for visual testing purposes only
}
div.page {
  min-width: 54em;
  padding: 10px;
}
div.header {
  background-image: url(images/large_logo.gif);
  background-repeat: no-repeat;  // This image is not repeat worthy !
  height:200px;
}
:
:

And the HTML is:

:
:

  
Title
  
  :
  :



However the image does not stretch to fill the right portion of the 'header'
div. Tiling this image spoils things. I've thought about slicing the
rightmost portion of the large_logo. I could then, perhaps, introduce a
parent div to 'header', say 'headerBackground' with the following CSS:

div.headerBackground {
  background-image: url(images/large_logo_filler.gif);
  background-repeat: repeat-x;
  height:200px;
}

This sounds like a nasty way to solve this, with minimal guarantee of making
the repeated slice look good. I'm not familiar with the technique used to
stretch an image within a DIV, and am not confident that it won't visually
skew the logo. A "very simple" table based technique seems to *visually*
solve this problem quite well without having to fool around with the logo.
But I wouldn't be here asking for help if I was in favor of tables.

What is the standards compliant way to handle this ?


Thanks,
Matt


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Re: [WSG] Should we design for 800x600 screens?

[Matt Fellows]

It probably has been asked before - but the answer is likely to change
with time (as monitor sizes vary or normalize) so the question is
still as relevant as ever.

If you were to ask the question to Jakob Nielson, he would say
optimize for 1024x768 [1] and provide a liquid content area.

But you really need to look at it from a few angles:
- Your intended audience i.e. Intranet users most likely won't be
viewing your site on their mobiles or Playstations. But users of a
social networking site might.
- Screen resolution data. i.e. If you expect 95% of your audience to
be using 800x600 then there is a compelling reason to optimize for
that

>> adapt to user's needs

I agree - adapt to user's needs. However, a liquid layout in my
opinion does not always offer that.
Liquid layouts are generally a good idea, but are not always perfect.
For example, how do you create a liquid layout to cater for a mobile
and a widescreen plasma? You might try something like Switchy McLayout
found at A List Apart [2], but these different mediums really require
tailored content. Adapting to the user's needs in this case means
providing different content and maybe even a different interface.

To clarify my position though - I would agree with Jakob Nielson in
the general sense, keeping my audience in mind. But knowing your
user's will give you more insight into what you _should_ do.

-- 
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/

[1] - http://www.useit.com/alertbox/screen_resolution.html
[2] - http://www.alistapart.com/articles/switchymclayout


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Re: [WSG] Structuring CSS

[Matt Fellows]

Now that's a question to spark debate!

Without leaning one way or another there are a number of different
approaches you might try.

Have you considered CSS frameworks such as Blueprint CSS[1] or the 960
grid system[2]? These approaches help to standardize your CSS by
providing the basic page layout with cross-browser compatible, minimal
and semantic markup. You are then left to style (bring life to) the
page with the content and look and feel.

There is also the old-school developer approach where you get a little
more freedom. You start by resetting your css [3], then set all of
your basic styles and general classes (which probably differ little
across sites) and set your site/section/page/page sub-section specific
styles. Traditional developers like this approach because they use
their own naming conventions, and often can re-use the base css files.

> I'm guessing this sort of structuring comes at a cost because a number of
> requests need to be made to the server.

You're certainly right with the cost in terms speed, by increasing the
number of CSS files, but what about the cost of development time,
readability and re-usability?

-- 
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/

References:
[1] - http://code.google.com/p/blueprintcss/
[2] - http://960.gs/
[3] - http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/05/01/reset-reloaded/


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Re: [WSG] Link Help please

[Matt Fellows]

It should be href="xxx.css" not href("xxx.css")

-- 
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/


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Re: [WSG] tools for IE

[Matt Fellows]

Interesting.
There is another toolbar [1] and debugger [2] for IE, both of which
are free microsoft products.
I use the developer toolbar frequently and it has a few nice features,
but nothing that compares to the Web Developer toolbar or Firebug for
Firefox. It does help identify IE specific issue and let you change
element/css properties on the fly.

The script debugger is pretty nice too, it is essentially a
lightweight VB debugging like engine and will show you the exact lines
that are breaking IE.
I'm especially interested in IE tester, especially if it does a better
job in comparison to Multiple IE's [3] which is buggy.

Thanks for the links,

-- 
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/

[1] - 
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=e59c3964-672d-4511-bb3e-2d5e1db91038
[2] - http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2004/10/26/247912.aspx
[3] - http://tredosoft.com/Multiple_IE


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Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo

[Matt Fellows]

>> Out of curiosity, is a logo  at the top of the page more semantically
>> correct when wrapped in a  than when it's just on it's own (ie. not
>> wrapped in anything other than, say, a 'header' )?

Easy! A  tag is supposed to hold a paragraph of text.  If it is
only holding an image, then there is no need for the surrounding 
tag. Some people (including myself)  feel uncomfortable with the 
floating by itself, so wrapping it in a  or something
 is a nice alternative.

-- 
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/


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Re: [WSG] Conditional styles not being used on first-run

[Matt Fellows]

Sounds like IE6 is caching the original stylesheet. This is entirely
expected as it increases performance and responsiveness for the user
on subsequent page loads.
There is no nice way around it. I'm sure you could use JavaScript of
some sort to reload the script but i don't think it is worth it.

On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Steven Workman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm having a problem with an element I've created for my current project.
> It's basically a styled rounded-corner box with a title (it looks like a
> fieldset but is correctly structured HTML). To get all my padding working
> correctly I'm using conditional styles for IE6, but some users are reporting
> that they have to refresh their screens (press F5) in IE before the
> positioning works correctly!
>
> Have any of you heard of this before? Is there a way around it? Any
> recommendations?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Steve Workman
> PA Consulting Group
> 123 Buckingham Palace Road
> London SW1W 9SR
> United Kingdom
>
> Direct dial: +44 207 881 3732
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.paconsulting.com
>
>
>
> ***
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-- 
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/


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Re: [WSG] Centering all items in a li

[Matt Fellows]

lol I think I will leave this one alone, I think i'm making you're job
more difficult instead of the other way around!

Please do send through your solution when you find it so I can have
that 'light bulb' moment.

Cheers,

-- 
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/


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Re: [WSG] Centering all items in a li

[Matt Fellows]

Shouldn't have to set a height, the line will wrap automatically
(unless you specify not to).

> Thanks, but as I said, that doesn't work in this case because the li is
> floating.

Do the li's have to float?

On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 8:49 PM, Darren Lovelock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks, but as I said, that doesn't work in this case because the li is
> floating.
>
> Also I think it is dependant on the the li having a set height value which I
> cant do either.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone
> Sent: 18 May 2008 10:01
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering all items in a li
>
>
> I seem to remember someone in a previous thread, about similar problem,
> suggested using,
>
> display: table-cell;
> vertical-align: middle;
>
>
> On Sat, May 17, 2008 3:39 pm, Darren Lovelock wrote:
>> Hi list,
>>
>> I've been trying to find a solution that will allow me to vertically
>> center all the items in a li.
>>
>> The big problems i've got are that the li's are a non-fixed height and
>> are floating to the left.
>>
>> So that kills the negative
>> <http://www.jakpsatweb.cz/css/css-vertical-center-solution.html>
>> positioning
>> method and the table-cell
>> <http://www.w3.org/Style/Examples/007/center#vertical>  methods that
>> I've found whilst scouring the web.
>>
>> Does anyone know a method that I can use that doesn't involve using
>> tables?
>>
>> Any help will be greatly appreciated!
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Darren Lovelock
>> Munky Online Web Design
>> http://www.munkyonline.co.uk <http://www.munkyonline.co.uk/>
>> T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893
>>
>>
>>
>> ***
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>



-- 
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/


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Re: [WSG] Centering all items in a li

[Matt Fellows]

Sorry Darren - it was late an i was tired! Vertical/Horizontal, Left/Right...

I don't think there is a need to do anything too exciting, the
container of the list should just need a text-align:center.
Is this basically what you are after? I have made the div only 300px
wide so you get the wrapping effect which I think is what is causing
the grief.

div.container{text-align:center; width:300px}
div.container ol li{list-style-type:none; }



   
   Display Name:
   
   
   
   Information about preview box etc. If it is more than two
lines or ## characters link to.
   learn more
   



The list items will be centered. If you have multiple columns you can
just place them next to each other.
Or am i still missing something?

-- 
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/


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Re: [WSG] Centering all items in a li

[Matt Fellows]

A demo would be helpful, but have you tried something along the lines
of the following:



  Link1
  Link2
 ...



div#footer{text-align:center;}
div#footer ul li{display:inline;list-style-type:none; }

Cheers,

-- 
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/


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Re: [WSG] Older Browsers

[Matt Fellows]

As much as I agree to what your are saying regarding IE5, it is still
ignoring the fact that people are using it, albeit a small proportion.
If your client absolutely _needs_ it, then you will have to code for
it.

I think this has already been mentioned but perhaps if you could get a
hold of some server logs/analytics, you might be able to see that only
.07% (~500 of about 700,000 on our site) actually use MSIE 5.0. Then
you can make the argument that it is not worth it.

Cheers,

Matt

--
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au


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Re: [WSG] accessible client side form validation

[Matt Fellows]

I humbly suggest my own:
http://www.onegeek.com.au/articles/programming/javascript-form-validation.php:)
Completely unobtrusive and requires only valid XHTML. If you have a little
bit of JS knowledge you can easily extend the functionality.

Cheers,

Matt

On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:38 PM, Casey Farrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Does anyone know of a free form validation javascript that is reasonably
> accessible? I realise that no client-side validation will be completely
> accessible without a server-side backup, but are there any good ones out
> there?
>
> Thanks,
> Casey.
>
>
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-- 
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/


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Re: [WSG] Floating model: FF counterintuitive

[Matt Fellows]

In your example they should all align with each other (given no width
constraints) and that's exactly what happens in FF for me.
If you want div 1 to be below the others you will need to do something
like this:

heading
div two
div one

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi group,
>
>  I have a really easy setting:
>
>  heading
>  div one
>  div two
>
>  When I imagine this I expect the browser to render the two left-floated
>  elements on the left side and the single right-floated div on the right
>  side, aligned with the heading:
>
>  +---+ ++
>  |heading| |div2|
>  +---+ ||
>  +---+ ++
>  | div1  |
>  |   |
>  +---+
>
>  However, FF aligns the right-floated div with the left-floated div and I
>  cannot convice it to align the former with the heading.
>
>  IE6 and IE7 render it as I intuitively think it should render.
>
>  Having faith in FF I believe I'm missing something basic to understand
>  why this happens this way.
>
>  Anybody solved this without introducing a wrapper div for heading and
>  div1?
>
>  Thanks,
>  Jens
>
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-- 
Matt Fellows
http://www.onegeek.com.au/


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Re: [WSG] a target=” blank” not part of xhtml

[Matt Fellows]

To pipe in extremely late on the matter - aside from it's deprecation
from XHTML Strict, forcing users to open links in new windows
introduces a host of usability problems. Including breaking the users
expectations, taking away user control and of course the infamous
breaking of the back button!

We all have no problems understanding what is going on when a site
opens a page in a new window. This is not the case for the average
user. To understand how severe the problem is, it is as simple as
asking one of your grandparents to navigate to the page, click on the
link that opens in a new window and ask them to go back to where they
came from. Then watch them struggle. They simply don't grasp the
concept.

Of course if your web page/site is targeted to users who can
understand this and requires frames and or the use of target for
whatever reason, then  it's simple. If you want your code to validate,
as Hassan Schroeder mentioned choose the correct doctype and your on
your way!

Cheers.

Matt


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Re: [WSG] WCAG 2 implementation site

[Matt Fellows]

Interesting. Thanks Thierry!

On 3/12/08, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > -Original Message-
>  > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>  > Behalf Of Matt Fellows
>  > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:33 PM
>  > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
>  > Subject: Re: [WSG] WCAG 2 implementation site
>  >
>  > >  I recall reading somewhere that 'accesskey' is often considered more
>  > >  hindrance than benefit because there are no standardised keys for
>  > >  specific functions and it inevitably ends up conflicting with regular
>  > >  browser shortcuts that keyboard users or screenreader users are
>  > >  likely to wish to utilise.
>  >
>
> > I would have to generally agree with that. What makes matters worse is
>  > the fact that there is no really good/standard behaviour that browser
>  > vendors actually follow in implementing them. I was referring to point
>  > 9.5 in  http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#gl-device-independence
>  > when I made the comment, and was interested Mike's perspective for not
>  > using them in this circumstance. I guess since there are only three
>  > links, accesskeys become trivial as they probably won't save any time
>  > anyway. I still think there is a case for accesskey's in many
>  > circumstances however unpopular they are, lets not forget about mobile
>  > access etc.
>
>
> User defined Access Keys may be a solution:
>  http://tjkdesign.com/articles/user_defined_accesskeys.asp
>
>
>
>  --
>  Regards,
>  Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] WCAG 2 implementation site

[Matt Fellows]

>  I recall reading somewhere that 'accesskey' is often considered more
>  hindrance than benefit because there are no standardised keys for
>  specific functions and it inevitably ends up conflicting with regular
>  browser shortcuts that keyboard users or screenreader users are
>  likely to wish to utilise.

I would have to generally agree with that. What makes matters worse is
the fact that there is no really good/standard behaviour that browser
vendors actually follow in implementing them. I was referring to point
9.5 in  http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#gl-device-independence
when I made the comment, and was interested Mike's perspective for not
using them in this circumstance. I guess since there are only three
links, accesskeys become trivial as they probably won't save any time
anyway. I still think there is a case for accesskey's in many
circumstances however unpopular they are, lets not forget about mobile
access etc.

Anywho thanks for the comments guys!

Matt


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Re: [WSG] WCAG 2 implementation site

[Matt Fellows]

Nice work Mike, I quite like the way you've used  to separate the
content for non-css and used display:none in the other case, it chunks
the content quite well.

I also like the way you have not gone with the basic "skip to content"
link and gone with a quick "skip to" menu, I have been advocating a
similar approach that integrates access key's into these menu's as
well.

Is there a reason for not using 'accesskey' at all?

Cheers,

Matt

On 3/12/08, dwain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> nice job!  has the feel of web 2.0.
> dwain
>

Web 2.0? Am I looking at the wrong site (http://lflegal.com/)?


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Re: [WSG] strong element being more semantical and accessible for required field

[Matt Fellows]

Thanks Mike. I guess I would prefer verbose and have them fill the
form out once than have them have them misinterpret and have to fix
errors, which I imagine can be tedious using a screen reader. Is this
the case?

It would be great if you could keep us posted about any feedback you
get in March when the site goes live.

For the average user however, what I think I will do is run a few
simple A\B tests on some of my sites and log the amount of JavaScript
errors for each of the different methods described (there seems to be
at least three plausible options). It will take some time to get
statistical significance however so it might be a while before I have
something useful.

Cheers,

Matt

On 2/26/08, Mike at Green-Beast.com <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Matt,
>
>
>  > that the following legend is
>  > superflous and prevents logical grouping.
>  >
>
> >>  
>  >>  Required
>  >>  Name (required) 
>  >>  Email (required) 
>  >>  
>
>
> I agree, actually. With that example (and the image one I gave) using the
>  word required, in the case of a user listening with a setting that reads the
>  legends (default), would make it too verbose. It'd read:
>
>  Required Name Required
>  Required Email Required
>
>  Though I guess there'd be no missing it. ;-)
>
>  The use of the Required legend seems to work well with the asterisk, with
>  its meaning defined in a non-associated label (one with no for attribute).
>  It's a compromise method. I do have one form on a real-deal AAA WCAG 2.0
>  site I made (to be officially announced Mar. 11-12th) with this specific
>  configuration. It's open now by invite to a few disabled users/testers and a
>  couple of key WCAG 2.0 Editors, and I got more very positive comments about
>  that particular set-up tonight... a few minutes ago actually.
>
>  > 
>  > Personal Details
>
> >
>  > Name  (required)
>  > 
>
>
> That is a solid method for sure, but there's only one problem and that is to
>  *some* users (default settings) it might sound too verbose.
>
>  Personal Details Name Required
>  Personal Details Email Required
>  Personal Details Phone
>
>  The problem is not the technique, yours or mine, or any of the other
>  accessible methods. It's the myriad configurations possible that really
>  challenge us. There are so many variables (not even including those of
>  sighted users) that while there are a number of feasible methods, there
>  seems no perfect one-size fits-all answer. It's all a compromise.
>
>
>  Mike
>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] strong element being more semantical and accessible for required field

[Matt Fellows]

> In some cases that's an excellent solution (what I've been using for a
> while) but unfortunately power users will dial down verbosity so much that
> they will quiet legends as well.
>
>  A blind power user I know told me * is best. He also told me nothing else is
>  needed, but he's a person and that part my be his opinion. For all-around
>  safety, one of these might be best:

Thanks Mike that's really interesting. I would argue, based on the
anecdotal evidence you've given, that the following legend is
superflous and prevents logical grouping.

>  
>  Required
>  Name (required) 
>  Email (required) 
>  

I am definitely leaning toward the following:


 Personal Details

 Name  (required)
 

 Email (required)
 

 Phone
 
 ...


Giving in to other's suggestions perhaps the 
could become  :)

The benefits here are:
* Easily scannable for the regular user
* Will be read out for screen readers
* Semantically intact
* Inputs can be grouped logically
* No need for annoying legends

Does this seem to be a combination of the general consensus?


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Re: [WSG] strong element being more semantical and accessible for required field

[Matt Fellows]

> What about using a fieldset with *legend* if the required fields can be
>  grouped together.
>  Because the legend (required fields) would be read aloud before each label.

I thought about this, but I think it makes more sense to have related
elements grouped together and in most cases not all of these will be
required.

For example, many forms ask for personal details such as addresses,
phone numbers, work details etc. Not all will be mandatory, but it
definately makes sense to group these together.

I think it might be a little confusing to enter in details out of
order, especially if the form is broken over several pages (have I
already entered this information?).

Cheers,

Matt


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Re: [WSG] strong element being more semantical and accessible for required field

[Matt Fellows]

Interesting indeed!

Actually Tee I was going to pose the same question to the list
following our discussions the other day :) I would like to get it
right in GValidator so the core doesn't need to be modified by clients
such as yourself.

I would like to see the results of reliable and publicly available
research. Does anyone know of any? A quick Google search doesn't turn
up anything overly exciting or empirical.
Maybe we can do some testing of our own?

So there are actually three interrelated things here: The first is the
semantics of the * element, then there
is the usability and accessibility of it's use.

In terms of usability and accessibility, my initial thoughts would be
that given a sufficiently prominant key just before and in close
proximity to the form, that sighted users should have no problem
identifying which form elements need to be filled in. Users with
screen readers however might have a little more trouble with this
approach, so an approach similar to Russ's suggestion seems like the
best approach.

In terms of semantics, w3c says this about the strong element:
"The strong element indicates higher importance for its contents than
that of the surrounding content."

I am unsure as to if it is more important that the label? But I can
see a clear benefit for blind users. So what do we do?

Cheers,

Matt

P.S. Although a while away, we do have these sorts of things to look forward to:
* http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-diff-20080122/#new-attributes
* http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/ARIA2.html

On 2/26/08, russ - maxdesign <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I can't speak for screen readers since I've never used one my self...
>  > But would there be any reason you couldn't do both and please the
>  > client and the screen reader(assuming it does help them)? a simple
>  > * First Name
>  >
>  > Just something I thought of :)
>
>
> Interesting discussion. You could also use more meaningful flags like the
>  word "Required" instead of "*" and style this content in red/bold. This
>  means that everyone, including screen reader users understand the
>  implications much more clearly (as long as this information is included
>  inside the label element.
>
>  For example:
>
>  
> Email (Required):
>  
>
>  Or...
>
>  
> Email (Required):
>  
>
>  Then you could easily style it with something like:
>
>  label strong  (or "label span.required")
>  {
> color: red;
> font-weight: bold
> text-transform: uppercase;
> font-size: 85%;
>  }
>
>  You can even position this "required" content after the  element
>  using absolute positioning as Derek Featherstone has proposed.
>
>  HTH
>
> Russ
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] PNG in IE6

[Matt Fellows]

If you have Adobe CS, you can try exporting the PNG image as PNG-8.

Cheers,

Matt
http://www.onegeek. <http://www.onegeek.com.au>com.au<http://www.onegeek.com.au>


On 2/21/08, Amrinder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Hi
>
> I looked for the working of .png image in internet explorer and found two
> articles.
> http://webfx.eae.net/dhtml/pngbehavior/pngbehavior.html
> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/pngopacity
> I tried using 'filter' according to both these articles but can't got a
way.
>
> Following is the HTML code:
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>
> The css code for #extradiv1 is:
>
> #extradiv1 {
>  background-image: url(../images/logo.gif);
>  background-attachment: scroll;
>  background-repeat: no-repeat;
>  background-position: center top;
>  position:relative;
>  height: 129px;
>  width: 120px;
>  filter:
> progid:DXImageTransform.Microsoft.AlphaImageLoader
(src='../image/logo.png',
> sizingMethod='scale');
>  margin: 0 auto;
> }
>
> Please help.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Amrinder www.awayback.com
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Re: [WSG] Best Practice to Offer Different Formats of Documents

[Matt Fellows]

As Joe said, I also think icons are a great way for users to quickly
scan the page and get a sense of what is going on.

There is a nice article [1] that can show you how to automatically
style links with little icons depending on the extension of the file
it points to if you are interested.

Cheers,

Matt

[1] - http://www.askthecssguy.com/2006/12/showing_hyperlink_cues_with_cs_1.html

On 2/16/08, dwain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On 2/16/08, Joe Ortenzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Icons also help people make quick choices and allow you to provide the
> documents in a tabular format when required.
> >
> >
> > Title of This Lengthy Document [PDF ICON] title="download the PDF:
> Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document" [MSWORD ICON]
> title="download the Word Document:
> Title_of_This_Lengthy_Document"
> >
> >
> i also put the size of the document next to the link.  this way the visitor
> know what's coming in the download or the view, because to view a pdf it has
> to be downloaded first and then opened and by notifying the visitor of the
> size of the document gives them another choice whether to download, view or
> by pass the document.
>  dwain
>
> --
> dwain alford
> "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
> for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky
>
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Re: [WSG] hello - [OT]

[Matt Fellows]

With no offense intended to the list moderators, I feel the usefulness of
this mailing list is diminishing due to an increase in irrelevant and lazy
postings.

The majority of people on this list are genuine web developers, who care for
the future of the Web and the place Web Standards has in it. But there seems
to be a small number of people who think they can simply post their problems
to this list without consulting any other reference.

Basic CSS problems, PHP syntax and even spam help are just a sample of some
of these questions that can, and should be either found quickly by a number
of popular resources or even a quick search in Google. Instead, they lazily
exploit the goodwill of many in this list who are kind enough to visit their
site and fix their problems.

With the number of these increasing there is no wonder why people are
leaving this list (and publicly doing so).

Out on a limb here - does anybody else feel the same? If so, do you have a
suggestion as to how we can better the quality of the list?

Matt


On 2/15/08, John Hancock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Please can this be closed? It's far off any standards related topic.
>
>
>
> Possibly the only thing I can see as a relevant part of the 'Web 2.0movement' 
> is the abstraction of the presentational information from data on
> a page, which isn't being discussed here.
>
>
>
> If posting an off-topic message, please at least mark it as such so the
> rest of us can hit the delete button without checking it first for relevant
> information!
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
>
> John Hancock
>
> *Identity*
>
>
>
> *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On
> Behalf Of *Joe Ortenzi
> *Sent:* Friday, 15 February 2008 6:32 PM
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] hello
>
>
>
> That's art, Kat, design is different.
>
> And design is a significant part of the web.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 12 2008, at 22:52, Katrina wrote:
>
>
>
> kevin mcmonagle wrote:
>
>  yes its a buzzword mostly but from a design standpoint its also a genre.
>
>  That's an interesting thought. Is Web 2.0 larger than the web itself? Has
> it become an art movement/period, in the same way as Modernism,
> Post-Modernism, Humanism, Impressionism, etc?
>
>
>
> Kat
>
>
>
>
>
> ***
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>
>
>
>
>
> Joe Ortenzi
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> www.joiz.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] an accessible question: server-side vs client-side validation

[Matt Fellows]

Hi Tee,

It sure is, I have actually implemented it locally but a bit of testing is
needed. It was more a test-of-prinicple kind of thing that actually turned
out useful.

So we don't move off topic however, I will reply to your email privately
about the library instead of the WSG list.

Cheers,

Matt

On 2/13/08, tee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Matt, thank you very much! Your JS library looks very interesting
> and  I certainly will play with it. I see that the radio group has not
> been implemented, is this something coming out soon?
>
> The web form has radio buttons with multi-selection options.
>
> Cheers,
>
> tee
>
> On Feb 12, 2008, at 2:12 AM, Matt Fellows wrote:
>
> > Hi Tee,
> >
> > What John is saying is that AJAX is JavaScript yes, but it can also
> > make calls to the server (using the XMLHttpRequest object) thus it
> > validates using server-side technologies such as PHP. But what is
> > misleading is that validation using AJAX can be disabled quite
> > easily simply by disabling JavaScript rendering a nice big security
> > hole. That is where the true server-side validation must double-check.
> >
> >
> > If you are interested, I wrote a small JS library that may be of use
> > to you. It is a plug'n'play like JS file to automagically validate
> > basic forms which is totally unobtrusive and promotes separation of
> > concerns. To add extra fancy AJAX stuff is a matter of overriding a
> > class and implementing your specific needs. I've still got a bit of
> > work to do on it, but you can certainly get an idea.
> >
> > The url is:
> http://www.onegeek.com.au/articles/programming/javascript-form-validation.php
> >
> > I'd be happy to help you if you need, just shoot us through an email.
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] an accessible question: server-side vs client-side validation

[Matt Fellows]

Hi Tee,

What John is saying is that AJAX is JavaScript yes, but it can also make
calls to the server (using the XMLHttpRequest object) thus it validates
using server-side technologies such as PHP. But what is misleading is that
validation using AJAX can be disabled quite easily simply by disabling
JavaScript rendering a nice big security hole. That is where the true
server-side validation must double-check.

Actually, as Mike said you can and should use both. Server-side validation
makes the user wait, so using JavaScript is a good thing as it is reactive
and keeps the user informed as to what is going on.

If you are interested, I wrote a small JS library that may be of use to you.
It is a plug'n'play like JS file to automagically validate basic forms which
is totally unobtrusive and promotes separation of concerns. To add extra
fancy AJAX stuff is a matter of overriding a class and implementing your
specific needs. I've still got a bit of work to do on it, but you can
certainly get an idea.

The url is:
http://www.onegeek.com.au/articles/programming/javascript-form-validation.php

I'd be happy to help you if you need, just shoot us through an email.

Cheers,

Matt

On 2/12/08, Mordechai Peller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> tee wrote:
> > Hi, I have a question about server-side vs client-side validation. I
> > always use a same PHP form script that works really great and it's
> > server-side validation using condition and requirement, and I like the
> > feature better than client-side's. A website I was working on, client
> > wants client-side validation, something fancy, something Ajax. I like
> > to stick with this form script because it has a great support for
> > anti-spam; I suppose I can turn off the server-side validation if
> > client-side validation is used, but I am concerned with the
> > accessibility issue - I am particular curious how screen readers treat
> > client-side validation.
>
> As important as accessibility is, there is an issues many times more
> important which is relevant to your question: security. Unless you
> implement sever-side validation (either in addition to client-side, or
> instead of), neither yours, nor your visitors data is safe. For example,
> via SQL injection your database can become an open book to a cracker.
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Styling forms

[Matt Fellows]

Forms should be marked up as you would anything else; If you are placing a
paragraph in the form you should use a . If you are placing a list inside
the form you should use a /, if you are placing headings inside the
form you should use h1-h6 etc. etc.
The inputs should be arranged using div's instead of tables of course,
unless you are presenting tabular data inside the form.

Simple hey!

On 2/6/08, Michael Horowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I've been looking at styling forms and I'm seeing some people mark them
> up as ordered lists and other using paragraphs.  What are the arguments
> for the different markup types.
>
> --
> Michael Horowitz
> Your Computer Consultant
> http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
> 561-394-9079
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] This IE8 controversy

[Matt Fellows]

A great point Casey. MS have taken the first major step in moving towards a
standards compliant industry and we, the web designer, are complaining that
it's going to break our old sites hacked up for IE6/IE7. The saying says 'we
can't have our cake and eat it too', but in fact we can. We have asked for
standards compliance and we are getting it.

Unfortunately this was inevitably going to happen and it is the users that
are punished for doing nothing. As professionals, we need to deal with it
much the same way as we dealt with the non-standards compliance of previous
versions. The only difference is that we are now moving in the _right_
direction.


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Re: [WSG] Explorer woes with list dropdowns

[Matt Fellows]

A JavaScript function that you might be interested in is called the
'Suckerfish' technique. It is a well known problem that IE is difficult at
best in these situations so to avoid lots of css hacks etc. you can use a
little bit of JS instead. It's accessible, standards compliant and easy to
use.

There is a nice article about it here:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dropdowns


On 1/29/08, Karl Lurman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> IE6 doesn't respect the *:hover pseudo selector if I remember
> rightly... It only supports it for anchors, e.g a:hover
>
> You may have to look at a small bit of javascript to 'activate' this
> behavior.
>
> Im pretty sure this is your problem for IE browsers.
>
> Karl
>
> On Jan 29, 2008 2:52 PM, Shane Helm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hello fellow web standard groupies.
> >
> > I have built a dropdown menu using lists.  It works in Firefox and
> Safari
> > but doesn't seem to work in IE6 or 7.  Any suggestions?
> > http://www.treasurehillskihomes.com/TESTING/navtest.html
> >
> > Greatly appreciated!
> >
> > Shane Helm
> > www.sonze.com
> >
> >
> > ***
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Re: [WSG] email abuse (OT)

[Matt Fellows]

This is not the appropriate forum to be raising these types of issues.
There are plenty of places elsewhere from which you can find more
information about spam detection and filtering. My suggestion would be to
start with Google, as they are your particular email host.

Cheers,

-- Matt
OneGeek <http://www.onegeek.com.au>


On 12/7/07, dwain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> who would i notify about email abuse.  someone is using my gmail address
> to spam for viagra?  any help would be appreciated.
> dwain
>
> --
> dwain alford
> "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
> for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky
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[WSG] To autostretch a page border

[Matt 0000]

I have a 2 pixel wide page border that needs to maintain its autostretched
limit to the browser window, as it gets filled with content. The code I've
supplied below *apparently* does what's needed in IE6. It doesn't work
the same with Firefox 2.0. Resizing the browser window behaves expectedly in
both browsers. Scrolling doesn't.


http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd";>



Page Border


html, body {
  height: 100%;
}
body {
  background: #fff;
  margin: 0;
  padding: 0;
  border: 2px solid #000;
  color: #000;
}
.content {
  min-height: 100%;
  padding: 10px;
  text-align: center;
}






Paragraph Heading

  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.


Paragraph Heading

  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.


Paragraph Heading

  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.


Paragraph Heading

  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.


Paragraph Heading

  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.


Paragraph Heading

  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.
  This is a test paragraph. This is a test paragraph. This is a test
paragraph. This is a test paragraph.








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Re: [WSG] Auto scaling within a table's background image

[Matt 0000]

Kepler,
Looks like you got right down to the nuts and bolts. Honestly, you
may have inadvertently isolated the nerve of my problem. I was lost in
attempting the use of z-index with absolute positioning. After a few
vain attempts at adjusting the top and left to bring the image&overlay
within the portion marked "CONTENT GOES HERE", I figured I'd have
better luck finding a way to scale an image within a table. Hence the
misleading initial posts !
I'd have to agree on the thumbnailing during ingestion vs.
post-asset-fetch being the better approach. It reduces transfer load
on the response objects and several other inherent delays. However,
the current approach is more for prototyping purposes as well as
settling an off-topic pending point.
Could you show me how to correctly position the image & overlay in
the content-reserved portion in my example.

Thanks,
Matt


On 8/1/07, Kepler Gelotte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > My dilemna was and still is to autofit an image of any size (entire image
> should be viewable) within the table's background image property using the
> style attribute. This "table" is currently no more than roughly 100 pixels
> on either side.
>
>
>
>
> Hi Matt,
>
>
>
> Here is a sample mockup I created using an overlay technique. Substitute the
> table for the div in your case. A better approach may be to resize the image
> on the server when the user uploads it using the GD2 library. I used the
> image resizing and cropping facilities for my home grown CMS.
>
>
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>
> img.stretch {
>
>
> width:
> 500px;
>
>
>
> height: 300px;
>
>
>
> z-index: -1;
>
>
>
> position: absolute;
>
>
> top:
> 50;
>
>
> left:
> 50;
>
>
> }
>
>
>
>
> div.overlay {
>
>
> width:
> 500px;
>
>
>
> height: 300px;
>
>
>
> z-index: 1;
>
>
>
> position: absolute;
>
>
> top:
> 50;
>
>
> left:
> 50;
>
>
> }
>
> 
>
> 
>
> 
>
>  class="overlay">Here is some text
>
>  src="logo.jpg" class="stretch" />
>
> 
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Kepler Gelotte
>
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Re: [WSG] Auto scaling within a table's background image

[Matt 0000]

Hassan,
The specific portion of the code I'm having a problem with was
inlcuded on my first post. The code that was not included is just
regular table based border wrapping. I bet most if not all the members
here are of the "been there, done that" experience level, which is why
I didn't bother illustrating it.

I'm going to write an example here for your convenience:






  



  



  







  





  







  



  



  





The portion commented as "CONTENT GOES HERE" is a placeholder for how
an image needs to be displayed. A simple  embedded in a  will
work. For another notch, a table element that allows it cells to act
as overlays is possible too. This is the approach I've taken. A rough
example was included on my first post. If you follow the responses to
it, there were suggestions to get most of what I intended it for, done
in CSS, as it was considered standard. So the quote below was meant to
be a response to individuals who knew how.

> > I'm still waiting on someone to post a newer standardized approach to
> > acheive the same effect.

Matt


On 8/1/07, Hassan Schroeder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Matt  wrote:
>
> > I guess there were a couple of concerns raised. One of them was the
> > justification of the table's use. I chose it only because it
> > is "currently" the only way I know to put pretty borders (outer and
> > inner) around and within an image.
> /
> > I'm still waiting on someone to post a newer standardized approach to
> > acheive the same effect.
>
> I think you'd have a better chance of getting specific help if you
> posted a complete example (or two) of your current approach. :-)
>
> --
> Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-938-0567   === http://webtuitive.com
>
>dream.  code.
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Auto scaling within a table's background image

[Matt 0000]

Lisa,
My DOCTYPE is HTML 4.01 Transitional. I'm trying to understand the
importance of strict adherence to standards as pointed out by Stuart and
David. This also includes your comments:

> 5.4 If a table is used for layout, do not use any structural markup
> for the purpose of visual formatting.

By "structural markup" were you referring to the use of  and 
elements to give content it's intended look ?

My last response to Daniel Kendrick was mixed with long term intent. I hope
that post didn't mislead anyone here to believe that I was using tables to
control the layout of an entire page or even close to 50% of it. CSS page
layouts are sufficient for now. My dilemna was and still is to autofit an
image of any size (entire image should be viewable) within the table's
background image property using the style attribute. This "table" is
currently no more than roughly 100 pixels on either side.

I guess there were a couple of concerns raised. One of them was the
justification of the table's use. I chose it only because it is "currently"
the only way I know to put pretty borders (outer and inner) around and
within an image. The tabular elements  and  are currently used to
position these borders appropriately, using a combination of width and
height attributes. While I'm being continously clued in by everyone's
responses here that these are outdated practices, I'm still waiting on
someone to post a newer standardized approach to acheive the same effect.


David, Stuart,
While I respect your intent, I prefer good advice to be complimented in
the technical world by sound examples. If this is the wrong forum to be
seeking such advice, please point me in the right direction.

Regards,
Matt


On 8/1/07, lisa herrod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 01/08/07, David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On 1 Aug 2007, at 09:34, lisa herrod wrote:
> > > On 01/08/07, Stuart Foulstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >> Web Standards say only use tables for tabular data - not
> > >> presentation.
> > >
> > > Stuart, I think you're referring to WGAG 1.
> >
> > Lets look at HTML 4.01 instead, which is somewhat clearer on the
> > subject:
>
> hmmm I must have missed the email re doctype. Matt, what doctype
> are you using?
> in any case, I don't think it really matters.
>
> Let's get back on topic.
>
> Matt, your initial question was:
>
> "Is there a standardized way to present this without resolving to a
> Javascript or CSS hack ?"
>
> I'd say you have two choices: tables or CSS (or both).
>
> Most people will advise against you using tables for layout. However,
> if you do use them... don't nest them and don't use any markup that
> will identify them as tabular data - unless it is.
>
> Guys feel free to jump in with any CSS layout advice! :)
>
> Lisa
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Auto scaling within a table's background image

[Matt 0000]

Daniel,
Consider an online photo album. Once you're on the page, the thumbnails
for any content (video/images) only consumes a certain portion of a page,
say about 60-75%, much like the content area for an online email service. In
order to make the thumbnails look presentable and informative, one could
surround these with borders that represent the type of content. The sky's
the limit on the aesthetics. Without CSS3, well rounded corner images with
shadow effects often end up being segmented into a fair amount of files,
especially if the user has some say in how these borders look. The user
would be presented with different border colors, edges, shadows, etc., to
finally decide how these thumbnails become usable. Some part of these
thumnails might reserve space to present the name of the image, or perhaps
the date they were created, and so on...
Now, should these scale flexibly as the browser goes full screen, or if
the desktop resolution changes ? Probably not today, for most needs.
However, it would help to keep the approach open enough for such
requirements in the future. What is certain is that images come in all
sizes. Short of pre-scaling the image with Javascript or other server side
tools prior to presenting in the above discussed format, I would be
interested to see it done using a simpler HTML/CSS approach.
I have tried a couple of methods inlcuding tagging the  between a
 element with the appropriate width and height. It works. However, I
lose the ability to set other partial images or CSS colored lines on top of
this. With an image set as a table background, any  cell can contain an
image or text style even, that can be used to overlay the background. Doing
it dynamically through DIVs won't be a problem as well. This approach suits
almost all of my needs, except for the fact that the image won't "fit"
completely within the table background defined space.

Matt

On 7/31/07, Daniel Kendrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Matt,
>
> Give me more details. What type of border is this around your page
> content?
>
> like if you had a square you have a series of images surrounding this
> square creating a border? So that if the square scales the border scales
> with it?
>
> I am no purist however i do believe tables should be used for tabular data
> and the extra time should be taken to find a suitable solution using CSS.
>
> I have done several things using the parent child relationship CSS has to
> offer.
>
> --DK
>
> On 7/31/07, Matt  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Mark,
> > It was my impression that tables provide a very flexible way to
> > define boundaries and sub sections within those, regardless of content type
> > - video, image, text... I kept my question short for the sake of brevity.
> > However, I'll eventually need a structure that has several images that forms
> > a border with shadow around the particular table background image in
> > question. The sizes and scaling for these secondary images are easily
> > computed with the help of a table. Further more, some parts of this table
> > will provide constrained texts (think text within an image slide). On top of
> > this, several such tables will form part of a bigger table (this concept is
> > quite similar to a thumbnail view of a slide show)
> > If you perceive the general idea, perhaps you might have examples
> > that illustrate this using CSS ?
> >
> > Matt
> >
> >  On 7/31/07, Mark L Hedley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >  Just use CSS and DIVS?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tables are not so good for this type of thing.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Cheers.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > *Regards,*
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mark Hedley
> > >
> > > *Voxia Web Development Solutions
> > >
> > > *
> > >
> > > *Mobile:   +44 07894 009 932*
> > >
> > > *Office: +44 01670 840 752**
> > > **Web:**http://www.voxia.co.uk ***
> > >
> > > * *
> > >
> > > Proud Members of: GAWDS (Guild of Accessible Web Designers) | Web
> > > Standards Group | Independent Web Developers Portal | HTML Writers Guild
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Matt 
> > > *Sent:* 31 July 2007 17:03
> > > *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> > > *Subject:* [WSG] Auto scaling within a table's background image
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >

Re: [WSG] Auto scaling within a table's background image

[Matt 0000]

Mark,
It was my impression that tables provide a very flexible way to define
boundaries and sub sections within those, regardless of content type -
video, image, text... I kept my question short for the sake of brevity.
However, I'll eventually need a structure that has several images that forms
a border with shadow around the particular table background image in
question. The sizes and scaling for these secondary images are easily
computed with the help of a table. Further more, some parts of this table
will provide constrained texts (think text within an image slide). On top of
this, several such tables will form part of a bigger table (this concept is
quite similar to a thumbnail view of a slide show)
If you perceive the general idea, perhaps you might have examples that
illustrate this using CSS ?

Matt

On 7/31/07, Mark L Hedley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Just use CSS and DIVS?
>
>
>
> Tables are not so good for this type of thing.
>
>
>
> Cheers.
>
>
>
> *Regards,*
>
>
>
> Mark Hedley
>
> *Voxia Web Development Solutions
>
> *
>
> *Mobile:   +44 07894 009 932*
>
> *Office: +44 01670 840 752**
> **Web:**http://www.voxia.co.uk***
>
> * *
>
> Proud Members of: GAWDS (Guild of Accessible Web Designers) | Web
> Standards Group | Independent Web Developers Portal | HTML Writers Guild
>
>
>
> *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On
> Behalf Of *Matt 
> *Sent:* 31 July 2007 17:03
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* [WSG] Auto scaling within a table's background image
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> My goal is to set the background image of a table and add individual cells
> (text or images) that can be opaque or transparent. The height and width of
> the table is fixed. The image that needs to be set in the table background
> however, is not under my control, and can be larger or smaller than the
> table's viewing area. Tagging the code as shown below does not automatically
> up/down-scale the image to fit within the desired viewing area:
>
>
>
>  border="0"
>
> style="background-image:url(images/image1.gif);background-position: center;
>background-repeat: no-repeat; background-attachment:
> fixed;">
>   
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
>   some text here...
>
> 
>   
> 
>
>
>
> Is there a standardized way to present this without resolving to a
> Javascript or CSS hack ?
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
> ***
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[WSG] Auto scaling within a table's background image

[Matt 0000]

My goal is to set the background image of a table and add individual cells
(text or images) that can be opaque or transparent. The height and width of
the table is fixed. The image that needs to be set in the table background
however, is not under my control, and can be larger or smaller than the
table's viewing area. Tagging the code as shown below does not automatically
up/down-scale the image to fit within the desired viewing area:


  

  



  some text here...

  


Is there a standardized way to present this without resolving to a
Javascript or CSS hack ?

Matt


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[WSG] Organising Infinity: A Web Content Management symposium, Brisbane - Saturday June 2, 2007

[Matt Bailey]

Hello All,
 
Posting the following on behalf of Sylvia Edwards, Assistant Dean Teaching &
Learning, Faculty of Information Technology here at Queensland University of
Technology. A number of the papers, posters and presentations being shown at
the symposium discuss accessibility, usability and web standards within the
context of Web Content Management at universities and other large
organisations.
 
Apologies for late notice, but for those in Brisbane (or who might be in
Brisbane on Saturday!) if you're interested, would be great to see you
there.
 
Best Regards,
Matt
 
 
QUT is hosting the 2nd annual web content symposium Organising Infinity: Web
Content Management into the Future on Saturday June 2nd, 2007. The symposium
is to be held at the QUT's Gardens Point Campus in the Owen J Wordsworth
room. The Keynote speakers for this years event include John Allsopp, a
world renowned software developer in the area of content management, and
Susan Rigney, the Manager of the Queensland Archives Digital Government
Unit. John is well known as an educator and presenter in the area of content
management having had 15 years of experience in working with and developing
for the web and also created the term Web 2.0. is the second Keynote
Speaker. Sue will present on digital preservation challenges in the 21st
century.

The symposium brings together current ideas in the area on information
management and enables networking opportunities with professionals in the
field of web content management. 

The Organising Infinity website can be found at www.infinity.fit.qut.edu.au
<http://www.infinity.fit.qut.edu.au/>  which gives program details and
starting times. Please note: Registrations are still open and can be taken
at the door on the day of the event.

For further information please contact Sylvia Edwards on
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or (+61 7) 3138 2759. 

 
=
Matthew Bailey
Web Systems Developer
QUT Web Team
ITS Client Quality Services
Phone: (07) 3138 9307 (x89307)
 
http://www.its.qut.edu.au/webteam/ 
CRICOS No: 00213J 
=
 
 


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Re: [WSG] Usability issue with form help

[matt andrews]

On 13/03/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm hoping to get some feedback from people regarding a solution to a
> usability issue. I work for a large organisation and we have very
> large/detailed processing required. Because the applications we develop are
> very detailed and change dynamically depending upon the current input,
> context sensitive help becomes very important.
>
> I have quickly thrown together an example of what Im talk about...
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/leenath/form/forms-example.htm
>
> The issue we face is that users are frustrated with having to tab through
> the help icons all the time. Users get into the habbit of tabbing twice (to
> go past the help and get to the next input field), but sometimes a help item
> wont exist, meaning the user accidentally tabs past the next input feild.
> Users say they want the help, because it comes in handy frequently,
> especially as the organisation is so huge and complex that they could never
> remember exactly what every input feild is about.
>
> So, here is what feeback Im looking for - How can we keep context sensitive
> help available for each input feild that requires it but potentially ignore
> it in a tabbing sequence? However, help must also be accessible (think about
> screen readers) and available via keyboard if they need to select it. It
> seems like a catch 22 to me, but I figure someone out there may see a
> solution that I cannot.

Seems to me that you're saying the primary problem is tabbing
*consistency*.  If so, then I'd suggest ensuring there is a help item
for *every* field.  Surely there's potentially some kind of useful
advice or clarification for every field?

Occam's razor.  The simplest solution is often the best.
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Re: [WSG] Web design education

[Matt Robin]

Hi John,How long ago was this per chance?I find your comments very interesting because it's taken right from direct experience in formal web education (albeit to graphic designers at the time).In essense, higher/further education guidelines (IT/Graphic Design or otherwise) don't seem to be able to bridge the gap between basic 'HTML know-how' and 'Web Standards-friendly' web design techniques. This is an extremely important foundation for shaping a web design community that is more web-standards aware...and it's an epic task to try and overhaul this in one country - yet alone the world at large (!)
I greatly appreciate insights from educators (or former educators) such as yourself - because it gives other web design professionals a greater sense of what the educational establishments are teaching to the next generation of potential web professionals.
Regards,Matt---http://www.mattrobin.comOn 16/02/06, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I've been following this discussion with great interest.I've taught HTML, CSS and _javascript_ at a TAFE, but not as part of acoding course, as part of a graphic design course. That's aninteresting environment in which to think about standards -- the
students were totally focused on design and graphics, and were reallylearning three applications: Photoshop, FireWorks and DreamWeaver,rather than what web pages were all about. A brief excursion intosource code left them for the most part baffled, if not horrified.
Why would anybody do it that way when we have Dreamweaver?I agree with points others have made:1) IT staff have an amazing amount of control over what is allowed --to the detriment of the students' learning what happens in the real
world. Not one of my students had ever FTPd a file to a server so,for instance, all their paths had to be relative and they could makemistakes with case-sensitivity with impunity.2) Syllabuses are either out of date, or more likely, so general as
to be meaningless -- students on my _javascript_ course had to learn "ascripting language". Students on my HTML course had to learn "amarkup language". I could have taught them Visual Basic and SGML and
been entirely within the guidelines.3) There's no time -- I taught a class of fifteen graphic designersthe very basics of HTML in a class lasting in total, five hours orso. When they said "how do I get two columns in my page?" I taught
them to do a table. Mea Culpa. I did, of course, explain about tableversus div positioning, font tags versus CSS, but I didn't attempt toteach them two completely different languages in that very shorttime. If they achieved a valid page with an , a couple of s
and a working link, I was happy. But I can't say I advanced the causeof standards much..."Have You Validated Your Code?"
John Horner(+612 / 02) 8333 3594Developer, ABC Kids Onlinehttp://www.abc.net.au/
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Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

[matt andrews]

On 10/02/06, Angus at InfoForce Services <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lachlan and Matt
> Thank you for the information. I should recheck. Do you have information
> about International web users?

For the sites I referred to as having less than 0.1% of members with
Javascript turned off, the users are largely in Europe - especially
Netherlands, Spain and UK.
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Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

[matt andrews]

On 10/02/06, Lachlan Hunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Angus at InfoForce Services wrote:
> > Most people have JAVAScript turned off,
>
> According to what statistics?  I think you'll find most people actually
> have it turned on.

Indeed.  I can report from some recent testing on the sites I work on
(which have hundreds of thousands of members, and thousands of
simultaneous users), that less than 0.1% of users had Javascript
turned off.  They're dating sites, so they're probably skewed more
towards the home/casual user than the office user, but still...  I was
surprised it was so stark.
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Re: Moral High-horse - was Re: [WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media

[matt andrews]

On 01/02/06, russ - maxdesign <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > As a "far-from-guru-status" Web Standards supporter/coder (I try) I have
> > witnessed, on this list and on another css-specific list, quite a bit of
> > condescending and 'forced-opinion' type of replies. It doesn't make for a
> > nice atmosphere when looking to these lists for help.
>
> Completely agree. The most common off-list comments I receive are along the
> lines of "a great list, very helpful, but sometimes a bit of attitude".

That's interesting feedback.  I too dislike, and never engage in, the
disparaging of those who perhaps know less than others and are trying
to learn.

In my own defence, I think a bit of light-hearted teasing is justified
in this case:  clearly Clear Blue Sky had not bothered to keep in
touch with web development trends *at all* for the last several years.
 They are obviously not even trying to learn (so far) - and you have
to admit, their "reasons" were pretty comical.  If they'd invested 5
minutes in googling these "reasons", they would have realised that
things have moved on (and that, on one of these "reasons", they were
probably never right in the first place).

Having said that, I'll just leap on to my web standards shetland pony
and ride off into the sunset.
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Re: [WSG] Failed Redesign and the Media

[matt andrews]

On 31/01/06, Kat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Kat wrote:
>
> Their answer  was that they used the table-based layout because they did
> not like the way style sheets render in IE, and that encoding is not
> utilised for search engine reasons.

Wow.  Those guys *really* have some catching up to do.  Wonder what
it's like emerging from a 1998 time capsule...
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Re: [WSG] Help with CSS

[matt]

Jose - Probably a margin padding issue.  Try reducing the padding margin
and position the bullets with the xy positioning on the background rule
for the li or a:li.

I'm not that great with css, you'll probably get some better answers.
Have a nice holiday.
Matt


> Hello,
> Does anyone can help me?
> I want to know why in IE my side bar is wrong i mean the bullets are not
> in
> the rigth place, and when i see it in Firefox its ok... is there a css
> hack
> that i need for IE?
> Thanks for your help.
>
> PD: Sorry about the last message that i sent it had the wrong subject
> accidentally
>
> --
> José Kusunoki G.
> Diseñador
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.constantconcept.com
> (511) 97004563


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Re: [WSG] Pipe separated lists

[matt andrews]

On 12/12/05, Gunlaug Sørtun <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...I'm just not sure it makes really good sense to add any kind of
> separators between links since they don't add any value from a usability
> point of view. They are just visuals that may come out as noise.

I agree with you, Georg.  My preference in this situation is to return
to the basics - separate content from presentation.  In the markup,
just have a simple list; and use CSS to add border-left (or -right) to
simulate pipe separators (as in that Google variant).
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Re: [WSG] italic and validator

[matt andrews]

On 12/12/05, Bert Doorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hmmm, so (to go along with the Google debate), we can save more
> bandwidth by omitting html, head and body?  Interesting.

Indeed, and Rimantas did just that in his version:
http://rimantas.com/bits/google/google.html

I'm slightly wary of doing this, wondering how assorted older user
agents might deal with it...
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[matt andrews]

On 10/12/05, Christian Montoya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 12/9/05, Lea de Groot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 10/12/2005, at 1:20 AM, matt andrews wrote:
> > > Hi Lea,  I completely agree.  Google have somehow developed a blind
> > > spot when it comes to meeting even the basics of current web
> > > standards.  As an exercise, I just threw together a valid version of
> > > the Google Search page:
> > >
> > > blog entry:
> > > http://tbp.xomerang.com/?p=18
> > >
> > > example page:
> > > http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/validGoogle.html
> >
> > Hey, cool stuff! :)
> > I thought about doing that, but decided I didn't have time.
> > Interestingly, comparing the two pages in
> > http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/
> > shows the original is *slightly* lighter (but I bet you could beat
> > that by removing more carriage returns, same as the original)
> > Hmmm... the javascript isn't there... I wonder if it would add much
> > weight - I wonder if its reused on other pages.
> > I don't think the comparision is valid without it. :(
> >
> > Lea
>
> Matt's example has more text, which explains the difference... and
> imagine if the CSS and JS were in an external file... how often do
> people reuse Google throughout the day? If all those users cached the
> files, we're talking about drastic reductions in Google's bandwidth.
>
> It wouldn't be hard at all to lighten the page... but we knew it was a
> good idea even before the example.

Quite right - I had started with a heavier version of the page than
the default, with Google Desktop, signed in to account, etc., which
added a bit of text and Javascript.  Now I've done a new version,
based on the simpler page that the W3C validator gets back from
www.google.com.

Invalid (original) page (with just 21 chars added to get a full url
for the logo image):
http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/invalidGoogle.html   (2,654 bytes)

Updated valid page, based on the above:
http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/validGoogle.html  (1,953 bytes)

I retained the one-line Javascript in the head, but all styles are in
an external CSS file:
http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/validGoogle.css (636 bytes)

So even for a one-off request, with no cached CSS, the valid version
is 2589 bytes - *still* lighter weight than the current invalid
version.
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[matt andrews]

On 09/12/05, Lea de Groot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 08/12/2005, at 10:29 PM, James Ellis wrote:
> > Having a valid frontend has nothing to do with whether an
> > organisation attempts to be socially responsible. I'm sure there
> > are heaps of slightly dodgy organisations out there that hire
> > programmers who understand standards.
>
> See, thats where I differ - I think that to say 'we do this other
> stuff thats Good, so we don't have to worry about something as
> trivial as Web Standards'[1] undermines all our work, which we like
> to think makes the world a Better Place.
> By declining to support Standards they implicitly state that it isn't
> important, and as I think it Is important, I feel they are not doing
> good, they are doing... that other thing ;)
>
> By being a big company (and by golly by market valuation they are
> absolutely Huge these days!) they implicitly make a massive statement
> about the value of something simply by ignoring it :(
>
> Lea
> [1] And, I must point out, in fact, they don't say any such thing -
> as usual they don't say anything at all about the matter. No one
> knows why they've never spent the 2.5 hours required to bring at
> least the home page up to standards...
> Lea de Groot

Hi Lea,  I completely agree.  Google have somehow developed a blind
spot when it comes to meeting even the basics of current web
standards.  As an exercise, I just threw together a valid version of
the Google Search page:

blog entry:
http://tbp.xomerang.com/?p=18

example page:
http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/validGoogle.html
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Re: [WSG] firefox 1.5 is official

[matt andrews]

On 30/11/05, Felix Miata <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So, the question remains, does a release version profile with web dev
> installed work without doing anything special when upgrading the release
> version from 1.0.x to 1.5?

And the answer is: yes.  (for me, on WinXPSP2, from 1.0.7, with
planets in their current alignments...)
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Re: Fw: [WSG] Call for Site Check

[Matt Harris]

Thanks, Jay.  yeay, the text on the slide rollovers was a pretty
tough call - but in the end I decided on such low contrast text in
order to keep the photo the primary focus.  I'm not to worried
about it, since the text is secondary content.  

Also, the banner is actually a duplicate link to the home page.  (:

Best regards,

-Matt Harris
www.focusontheclouds.com

Re: Fw: [WSG] Call for Site Check

[Matt Harris]

Thanks for the input on www.focusontheclouds.com! 

kvnmcwebn, I have added in a yellow link color...
FFCC00 stole the show, so I muted it with just a little blue to make it
blend in better.  

What do you all think about adding yellow as the primary link color?

Gunlaug, I have added a dark blue background, for visitors browsing the
site without images.  I really appreciate the comment - I would
have completely missed it otherwise.

Stephen, I tried a darker background in my comps, but
the blue is so dark already that the main site area gets lost, when a
darker background is added.

Best regards,

-Matt Harris
www.focusontheclouds.com

[WSG] Call for Site Check

[Matt Harris]

Just re-worked my photography site: www.focusontheclouds.com and wanted
to get your opinions.  I've strayed into new territory - opting
for a slightly-risky, dark background instead of sticking with a
classic white background.  I'm interested to hear if you think it
works...

Development has been mostly on the PC, so Mac users, let me know if you
run into any obvious problems. Everything should be working good in
Firefox and Opera - only thing that is missing in IE is the hover
effect for photo lists.

Looking forward to your input and thanks for your help!

-Matt Harris
www.focusontheclouds.com

Re: [WSG] starting ordered lists from a number other than 1

[matt andrews]

On 23/11/05, Geoff Pack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I agree with Bert - use the start attribute and a transitional dtd. It's 
> cleaner, more concise, and captures exactly the semantics of what you are 
> doing. You don't need the div around the text info though.
>
> Of course you could always write out the first 39 empty list-items and hide 
> them :)

Agree with Bert and Geoff here.  The dropping of 'start' attribute
from strict DTD was, and is, a controversial W3C decision - one with
which I disagree, personally.  There are plenty of plausible and
sensible scenarios for having an ordered list start with something
other than 1... this NLA case being an excellent example.  This is one
case where I would regard (this particular aspect of) validation as
being a hindrance rather than a help.
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Re: [WSG] Verb this link (WAS Click here--reference)

[matt andrews]

On 21/09/05, Blank Blank <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>  
> On 9/21/05, Lea de Groot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'm not on this "don't use verbs" boat at all because I haven't yet
> > found (or just missed :( ) a justification for it.  While I don't by
> > default, or even often, use a verb in a link, sometimes I do.
> > For instance, one of the pages on a current project allows you to view 
> > a video.
> > The link is Download Video Now, on the
> > download page, but the links throughout the site that point to that
> > page say similar to:
> > "You can view a video clip"
> > The difference is that one points to a page and one allows you to do
> > something (in this case view a movie)
> > Verbs can be very useful. I don't understand the blanket ban. 
> > 
> > At the same time, I wouldn't be terribly upset to see:
> > "You can view a video clip"
> > 
> > Why is this bad?
> > 
> > warmly,
> > 
>  
>  Although to view a video, one technically needs to download it first (or at
> least a portion of it -- ie streaming), I think the real problem with using
> verbs in link text, is that you are assuming the user will do something, or
> that something is going to happen.
>  
>  In the video example, one may have an embedded movie player in their
> browser, hence I would think of this as "playing" a video, as opposed to
> "downloading" it.
>  
>  Evening "viewing" could be thought of as inappropriate, what if the user is
> blind?
>  
>  Although it's quite bland, something along the lines of:
>  A video clip is available.
> 
>  makes more sense to me.
>  
>  Cheers,
>  
>  Daniel Nitsche
>  


I'm with Lea here.

What about 'Search'?  'Browse'?  Trying to do grammatical acrobatics
to turn these into non-verbs is, to me, ridiculous and
counter-productive.

There are many many cases where a user is, in down-to-basics terms,
taking an action when they follow a link.  No matter whether the
technical reality is that they are being presented with a static
document... in straightforward user terms, it's taking an action.

This is one guideline I disagree with and will not be following.
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Re: [**] [WSG] Know any standard's compliant WYSIWYG XHTML editors for a CMS integration?

[Matt Harris]

Scott,

Thanks for the link to xStandard.  However, I'm looking for a
solution which doesn't require any local machine software and cab allow
for multiple rich text areas on one page.  Does xstandard meet
those requirements?

Also, unfortunately I haven't recieved any CMS invitations.  Do you have a link to the list?

Thanks!

Matt Harris
www.focusontheclouds.comOn 8/26/05, scott reston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:you're probably about to get an invitation to join the CMS list from
about 5 people... that's probably a better forum for the question...that said, i've been happy with XStandard (xstandard.com). veryconfigurable and xhtml-friendly.works in IE and FF on a pc. OSX support for FF is slated for this fall,
i understand.scott restonraleigh, ncMatt Harris wrote: > I'm looking for a standard's compliant WYSIWYG XHTML editor to beincluded in a custom-built CMS.  It needs to works with IE, Firefox, and
Safari.  It should run directly from the browser and not require usersto download and install any lcoal plug-ins. > Has this been created yet?  Has anyone seen up-to-date reviews of thelatest and greatest WYSIWYG editors?
 > > Best regards, > > Matt Harris > www.focusontheclouds.com <http://www.focusontheclouds.com
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[WSG] Know any standard's compliant WYSIWYG XHTML editors for a CMS integration?

[Matt Harris]

I'm looking for a standard's compliant WYSIWYG XHTML editor to be
included in a custom-built CMS.  It needs to works with IE,
Firefox, and Safari.  It should run directly from the browser and
not require users to download and install any lcoal plug-ins.  

Has this been created yet?  Has anyone seen up-to-date reviews of the latest and greatest WYSIWYG editors?

Best regards,

Matt Harris
www.focusontheclouds.com 

[WSG] iCalendar Questions

[Matt Hampel]

Does anyone have any good iCalendar resources to share? Other than
hCal, I can't find many good iCal examples, let alone tutorials.

I hope this is an appropriate question for the WSG -- if not, where
else could I look for answers?

Matt Hampel
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Re: [WSG] Need recomendations for CMS system

[Matt Hampel]

I'll second the Textpattern reccomendation. It's free, and the
learning curve is very reasonable. It's easy for complete beginners to
use the system. And it cuts development time by a siginifigant ammount
because it uses a logical, non-constraining template system.

Matt

On 8/16/05, morten fjellman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > What kind of scale project are you looking at? Small site, large site,
> > large enterprise...?
> 
> The system will be used for all kinds of sites, but mostly for
> small/medium businesses. Most of my clients want to update their site
> themselves, but I don't want to give them the oppurtunity of messing
> up my code/mark-up. So first and formost the system need to spit out
> divs instead of tables, and the text-editor needs to be
> xhtml-complient.
> 
> Thanks
> Fjellman
> 
> On 8/16/05, heretic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I am looking for a CMS system that will produce code/mark-up that
> > > follows web standards. A lot of systems spits out tables and weird
> > > tags that doesn't validate. I'm mostly interested in freeware, but if
> > > I need to buy one to get such a system then that's fine too. I have
> > > been searching the net for awhile, but I'm not sure that I will
> > > recognize the best system even if I find it.
> >
> > What kind of scale project are you looking at? Small site, large site,
> > large enterprise...?
> >
> > h
> >
> > --
> > --- <http://www.200ok.com.au/>
> > --- The future has arrived; it's just not
> > --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
> > **
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Re: [WSG] New front page for http://abc.net.au/

[matt andrews]

On 04/08/05, Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> IE6, Win XP, SP2
> 
> >Strange - it doesn't redirect for me. Are you using PC or MAC? I have tried 
> >IE 6 and IE >5.5 on the PC and in both cases I go to http://www.abc.net.au, 
> >not >http://abc.net.au/default_800.htm

As mentioned earlier in this thread, it's nothing to do with which
browser you use - it's the width of your browser window.  Try resizing
your IE window to more than 990px width and reload.

>From http://www.abc.net.au/homepage/2005/scripts/home.js :

function resizeWindow(width) {
// window.status = width;
if (document.location.href.indexOf('default_800.htm') > -1) {
if (width >= 990) document.location.href = 'default.htm';
} else {
if (width < 990) document.location.href = 'default_800.htm';
}
}
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Re: [WSG] Site Review Please - www.SalmonRecipes.Net

[Matt Harris]

Thanks, David!On 8/2/05, David Nicol <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Matt,I'm reliably informed by our in-house CSS 'guru' that you'll find youranswer here@http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html
Hope this makes some sense.CheersDavid

Re: [WSG] Site Review Please - www.SalmonRecipes.Net

[Matt Harris]

Nicely done!  I have a quick question for you (or anyone)... what is the purpose of this code?
#content-ctr:after{	display:block;	visibility:hidden;	content:".";	clear:both;	height:0;	}/* \*/* html #content-ctr{height:1%}/* */

--
Thanks!

Matt Harris
www.focusontheclouds.com 
On 8/2/05, David Laakso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
David Nicol wrote:>Hello everyone,>>I would really appreciate your comments about our recently redeveloped>http://www.salmonrecipes.net/ site.
>>David>>>Nice stuff(I mean Salmon), David. I had to go rather extraordinary meansto find any problem-- if, in fact, some of these browsers are even inyour clients market:<
http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=180563>. When you havetime to get around to it, you may feel like correcting the couple ofminor css errors.
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Re: [WSG] A Fixed Understanding

[matt andrews]

On 28/07/05, Chris Kennon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Thanks, where I got confused is with the "static" attribute which
> does not take "top, right, bottom and left values(http://
> www.w3schools.com/css/pr_class_position.asp). So if an item is not
> positioned when using "fixed", it is "fixed" relative to its
> containing element?

here's an excellent introduction to CSS positioning - it will answer
your question and many more:

http://www.brainjar.com/css/positioning/
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Re: [WSG] Problem in Firefox on initial page load only

[matt andrews]

On 27/07/05, Hope Stewart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 27/7/05 8:00 PM, "Jorge Laranjo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> >> At the bottom of the page, you have a 
> >> make that &nbps;
> >
> >  
> >
> > Note,   and not &nbPS;
> 
> When I've needed to clear a floated, I've used:
> 
> 
> 
> which seems to work, though I haven't tested it in *every* browser.
> 
> Are there any advantages of using   over
> ? I've never put a " " inside the
> . Should I?

A nicer approach, IMHO, is not to use markup for clearing at all:

http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html
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Re: [WSG] Understanding inheritance (well, trying to)

[matt andrews]

hi John

I'm afraid this is incorrect.

The quoted CSS selectors were for classes and IDs, without being
element-specific.  Thus it makes no difference whether you apply the
class to a span or a div.  There's no need for any extra markup.  And
it seems to me that the question is one of explaining CSS specificity,
not asking for a change in markup.

Suggest you read Russ' earlier reply closely.

cheers,

matt andrews.

On 25/07/05, John Yip wrote:
> When the ID and the CLASS have the different value on the same
> attribute, the ID always wins. However, you can use  to
> achieve what you want.
> 
> 
> Paragraph one
> Paragraph two
> Paragraph three
> 
> 
> Hope that helps
> 
> John

> -Original Message-
> From: listdad
> On Behalf Of Hope Stewart
> Sent: Saturday, 23 July 2005 5:41 PM
> To: Web Standards Group
> Subject: [WSG] Understanding inheritance (well, trying to)
> 
> There's something about inheritance that I don't understand. Say in my
> style
> sheet I have:
> 
> body { color: black }
> #content {}
> #hilite p { color: red }
> 
> If I have three paragraphs in the div #hilite and I want the text of one
> of
> them to be black instead of red, I define this class for that paragraph:
> 
> normal { color: black }
> 
> But I find this doesn't work. For it to work, I have to define the class
> with the div ID, like this:
> 
> #hilite .normal { color: black }
> 
> What is it about the laws of inheritance that means the class alone
> won't
> work??
> 
> Hope Stewart
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Re: [WSG] Page check please - lionsq3

[matt andrews]

On 22/07/05, Rob Unsworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi All,
> I need some help in checking the following page is rendering Ok in IE 5.x
> and IE 6.
> I am unable to test in these browsers due to a hd crash and the subsequent
> decision it was time to refurbish my system. Until finished I have no
> access to any version of Windows. All I can test on is the various
> brousers on Linux.
> 
> I was asked to have this page functioning by our meeting on Sunday. The
> only feedback I have is from the person who requested that the page be
> ready by sunday.
> 
> The feedback:
> "Is there any reason the top of the page is blank?"
> 
> Asking what version of Windows he is using created only silence.
> 
> I took a guess and made an adjustemt of 2% in the width of the dl.
> 
> http://www.lionsq3.asn.au/phorms/cabinet/
> 
> The css for the list is at,
> http://www.lionsq3.asn.au/css/formlist.css
> 
> The main css is at,
> http://www.lionsq3.asn.au/css/lionsq3.css

hi Rob,

That page looks broadly the same in Firefox1.0.5/WinXP as it does in
IE6/WinXp, IE5.5/WinXP, and IE5.0/WinXP, except that in IE there is of
course no background globe image.  I suspect this is what he's
referring to.

I guess you could always hack in a rule for IE to specify the
background image as not 'fixed'.
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[WSG] and : accessibility usage?

[Matt Thommes]

Is there any reason at all to ever use , and ?

I know they are "visual" elements, but I thought I heard somewhere
that  represents a tonal adjustment, for screen readers - such
as *lowering* the tone of voice.

 and  provide levels of emphasis - but is there an
opposite to that? The other end of the spectrum, I mean?


MATTHOM
matthom.com/
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Re: [WSG] Character encoding

[Matt Thommes]

> What benefits or problems avoided do you perceive by doing this and
> what other characters are you escaping?

Lea, I'm not sure why I always escape the dash - perhaps because I can??? :)

I am assuming the dash will someday cause me problems, so I just
escape it now, to avoid a lot of re-work.

Other than that, I escape a lot of "usual characters," such as single
quotes, double quotes, and ampersands.

For some reason, I feel I have to escape every character that is not a
letter or number.


MATTHOM
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Re: [WSG] Character encoding

[Matt Thommes]

Josh, I am also torn with this issue.

I ALWAYS escape characters with their decimal values, as Vlad
suggests, even if I am serving up UTF-8.

However, within code snippets (), I don't make as much of an
effort - for whatever reason.

For instance, I always escape a dash (-) with –--- when
using it in a normal sentence.

However, within code snippets, I leave the dash, as is - simply
because the dash has more meaning within code snippets (computer
talk), than is does in plain English.

For example, the code snippet of a MySQL date would be something like:
2005-06-05.

I think, in order to preserve the "code essence," I don't turn it
into: 2005–06–05.

I think the dashes are just as important as the numbers, in this case.


I could be WAY wrong - these are just my thoughts.


MATTHOM
matthom.com/


On 6/3/05, Joshua Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, 2005-06-03 at 23:42 -0400, Vlad Alexander wrote:
> > Hi Joshua,
> >
> > If you are serving your content as Unicode (UTF-16 or UTF-8), then there is 
> > no need to use entities. If you do need to escape characters and you are 
> > using XHTML, then it's best to use their decimal values rather than 
> > entities. This makes your markup more easily parsable by XML technologies 
> > in your CMS (on the back-end). For example, instead of   use  
> 
> Ah, okay.  The plugin is using decimal values, but WordPress also uses
> UTF-8 by default -- so perhaps it is redundant.
> 
> > >>It's just always felt dirty seeing certain characters
> > >>not written in their appropriate entity codes.
> > Hmmm...that's a very English centric view of the Web ;-)
> 
> Yeah, I thought that too, but couldn't think of another way to say it!
> *blushes whilst wishing he were bilingual!*
> 
> Thanks :)
> 
> --
> Joshua Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> base10solutions
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Re: [WSG] Exporting inline CSS

[Matt Thommes]

> Quick question, I have a client with lots of HTML file that have inline CSS.
> (Over 300 docs)

Good Lord, what was that previous author thinking!??

There's no escaping this problem - you're just gonna have to start
from scratch. Don't waste your time with "export/import" methods.


MATTHOM
matthom.com/


On 5/31/05, Jacobus van Niekerk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Quick question, I have a client with lots of HTML file that have inline CSS.
> (Over 300 docs) I am looking for some software, or way, that will export
> this inline css into a external css file. Or even just move it into a
> embedded style sheet.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help.
> 
> Kind Regards
> Jacobus van Niekerk
> 
> Creative Consultant
> 
> 
> web: http://www.catics.com/  |  http://www.freelancecontractors.com
> tel: + 27 21 982 7805
> 
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Re: [WSG] CSS selectors: next adjacent element?

[Matt Thommes]

> Do you mean something like
> 
> div.picture + h3 {...}

I'm pretty sure I mean that - I am, perhaps, confused on what the plus
(+) sign does.

I was under the impression that your example meant this:


...


.. rather than this:


...

...


-Matthom


On 5/24/05, Jan Brasna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Do you mean something like
> 
> div.picture + h3 {...}
> 
> ?
> 
> --
> Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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