date:20021022

-Gary-
> We learn in D&C 107 that an apostle is a high priest

And an elder is a deacon. May we therefore say that in order to bless by 
the laying on of hands, one must be a deacon? Technically it's true, but 
it is certainly misleading.

In many places in scripture, "high priest" is used to mean "holder of 
the high Priesthood". Don't confuse that with the modern office of "high 
priest", which is a different thing.

You didn't respond to many other points I brought up, but the main one 
is: Please show some scriptural substantiation for the doctrine you 
taught that all men must be ordained to the modern office of high priest 
in order to progress in their exaltation in the eternities.

Stephen

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[ZION] High Priests have money

I have to disagree with Paul on this one. I know several high priests who
barely eke out a living. I've been one for 14 years, and was only a Buck
Sergeant in the Air Force when first called. I promise you, they don't
get the big bucks. 

My current bishop works as the general carpenter for the YMCAs here. To
make ends meet, his wife also works (their kids are all big). And I could
give you many other examples, and not only here in Alabama, either.

Yes, I think that the Lord has finances as a consideration for who he
calls to certain callings. Moreso, I think the Lord considers a person's
talents and capabilities for a certain calling, especially in a
presidency. Just as the Lord is going to call a healthy brother to be
bishop, over one that is homebound; The brother who has developed many
talents is of much more use to the Lord in the work than one who has not
developed his talents. Such a brother is likely to have become successful
in business also.

Next, the Lord uses people who work hard. Imagine a bishop who only gives
a couple hours a week to the calling. The ward would fall apart! The Lord
looks for hard workers, dependable people who he knows will sacrifice the
television programs and leisure time, in order to serve faithfully. This
type of person also happens to be the type who tends to succeed in
business.

Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the
people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO have
shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness.

K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
"No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


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[ZION] Stop stuffing Marc, or something to that effect....

I'm glad you are not an unnatural human. 

I've never considered you a cultist, but not an idealogue???  What's
one definition of an idealogue? Maybe someone who spends obsessive
amounts of electrons defending his personal point of view on an email
list full of conservatives?  ;-)

You aren't a cultist, but you definitely do defend your ideological
viewpoints very aggressively. And I'm glad you do. It forces us cultists
to review our own belief systems.  ;-)

K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
"No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Marc: Naturally I'm human and *do* have my biases, but I'm not a cultist
or an
ideologue. Stay tuned for more on this.
 


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[ZION] High Priest

Then you would logically follow from your argument that one wouldn't have
to be ordained a god, king and high priest?
That's not what I read in the scriptures. I read in Rev 1:6 and other
references that we must be made kings and high priests unto God the
Father. 

K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
"No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


Paul:
I would say that you don't have to hold the priesthood to make it into
the lower realm of the celestial kingdom and you don't have to be a High
Priest to be exalted in the highest. I see the office of High Priest as
pertaining to this earth only. The same with apostle too.


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[ZION] I just hate it

Hopefully Marc and Stephen can remember to be Christians first, and right
second.

As for being dizzy. Maybe you need to not follow either. Perhaps they are
both wrong, or both right. There isn't always a black and white answer.
They are both giving good reasonings, however issues can go deeper than
they have gone. Issues can even go deeper than they are able, because
many issues are classified and they will not ever in this life know the
reasonings for every American action.  I think we can find questionable
reasonings for every action made by the US, even in our own American
revolution. It's easy to say we were in the right now, since we won.
However, when you look at some of our actions against the loyalists, it
was scandalous. My wife's ancestor was a Tory, and forced back to
Scotland after living decades in Georgia/Alabama. In reality, the
colonialists were rather unfair in their renouncing all taxation, since
the French and Indian War was very expensive and England only wanted us
to pay a portion of the costs.

In the War of 1812, we actually had more reason to go against France than
England, and probably should have. Then there's the Civil War (or War of
Northern Aggression, or War between the States). Did Lincoln have the
right to stop the secession of the Southern States? Did the South have
the right to secede, and if they did, was the manner in which they did it
lawful, or were they required to go through Congress and the courts?

But, I could do the same for many of the Nephite wars, also. Nephi could
be shown to be a very two-faced person, pretending to not want power, yet
sneaking out in the middle of the night with a large contingency, and
stealing the national treasures. 

So let's not be too judgmental on the decisions made by nations. We don't
always know the full reasonings. We often only get one side of the story.
And we often don't understand the entire environment within which
decisions are made.

I don't think America evil because it has made some bad decisions in war.
I think it has made many mistakes, but then I think most of those
mistakes were made in trying to do something better. Kind of like Woodrow
Wilson in his efforts to save Europe by drawing new national lines, ended
up creating national feuds that continue to this day. Do we condemn
Wilson for making the attempt? Or do we realize that there were some
things he just did not foresee.  Do we condemn Clinton for shooting a few
cruise missiles into Afghanistan and Sudan for terrorist actions, or do
we realize that he was acting on the same level other presidents had done
since the early 1970s?

Do we condemn Canada for not becoming a world power in its own right and
step in to be the world's police force, so we could sit back? I don't
think so. Nor should we be condemned when the world continually throws
that responsibility onto us, when we really don't want it. We've asked
the UN to step in several times, then we have to step in to fix it.
Sorry, I'm not going to be so harsh on people, simply because they are
human. Show me some actual evil actions on their part, and I'll consider
condemning those actions. But show all sides of a story, not just the
history-shaded-one-color that some would have us see.

K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
"No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

JWR:
 
I just hate it when Marc Schindler and Stephen Beecroft get too intense 
with each other.  I usually ends in one or the other taking a lengthy
leave 
of absence from the list.  And of course, since their contributions are 
among the chief reasons this is such a good list, I really hate to see
it.
 
Both Marc and Stephen are debating in such fine style that I am undecided

whose side to take.  I am an American, not a Canadian, so on that basis 
perhaps I should move in Stephen's direction.  On the other hand, I have 
been totally disgusted for the last 40 years by the way this once great 
nation deports itself on the international stage, so maybe I should move
in 
Marc's direction.  Then again I am a foaming-at-the-mouth anti-communist,

so perhaps I should move towards Stephen.  I'm starting to get dizzy.


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[ZION] High Priests

We learn in D&C 107 that an apostle is a high priest, and although there
are 15 ordained as apostles, technically it is a superset of high priest.
Note the official title of the prophet of the Church: 

64 Then comes the High Priesthood, which is the greatest of all.
65 Wherefore, it must needs be that one be appointed of the High
Priesthood to preside over the priesthood, and he shall be called
President of the High Priesthood of the Church;
66 Or, in other words, the Presiding High Priest over the High Priesthood
of the Church.

You are right, a stake president cannot call another. Why? Because he
does not have jurisdiction over that other area. However, if the Prophet
were to delegate such authority, it could occur in the future. There was
a time when only Apostles could ordain patriarchs. Then it was given to
the Seventy to do it. Now a stake president can ordain a patriarch. More
and more keys are being delivered to stake presidents, making them more
and more autonomous.

There is a key in that. Some day the stakes may not have access to the
prophet's voice and will be forced to be autonomous. A stake president
has many of the keys given him from the prophet, but not all,  because he
does not require them at this time.  

What will happen during the Millennium when each stake may have its own
temple? I would believe that stake presidents will be given the keys to
manage the temple therein. And the future keys of resurrection will very
possibly be shifted down from the prophet (when he receives them) to the
stake presidents to organize the work in their own areas.

K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
"No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


Stephen:
No. Currently, one must be an apostle. A stake president cannot call and 
set apart another stake president.
 
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[ZION] Tweaking Liechtensteiners

So, you are judging a small patch of Europe because you couldn't find an
open restaurant? Have you tried doing that in Canada? I once had to cross
three provinces in Canada to find an open restaurant! At least
Liechtenstein has the presence of mind of being only 10 minutes from a
good restaurant!
Oh, and as for them being idealogues...It takes one to know one!

K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
"No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Marc:
Just for Stephen's benefit, and to present a bit of fairness, I thought
I'd write an anti-Liechtenstein post. I was there once. We tried to find
a restaurant that was open but couldn't, so went on to Switzerland. It
takes all of 10 minutes to cross this sorry excuse of a country. It's
run by an archduke who in theory is a dictator. The locals tried to tell
me that it wasn't really a feudal state, but they're all ideologues.


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[ZION] High Priests

It is partially an issue of maturity/age: placing those who have not had
a line authority position requiring HP status, into the HP quorum/group, 
in order to strengthen the individual and also to strengthen the quorum.

This happens depending upon the make up of the quorums/groups in a
ward/branch. If a unit has tons of MP, then there's no problem in moving
a mature member into the higher quorum, where that person will fill more
comfortable. Secondly, the reality is: training in the elder's quorum
tends to be on a more basic level, due to the fact that one has all the
newly baptized 3 month elders and adult aged priests in the quorum.  The
HP quorum, besides getting the needed sleep, should also be getting a
higher level of doctrinal teaching. BTW, the "sleeping" one sees us doing
is actually the quorum receiving revelation from on high. We're actually
in a trance  ;-)

Some strength needs to be left in an elder's quorum, but as long as there
are a bunch of experienced 40-something elders in the quorum, it usually
keeps younger brethren from opportunities of presidency and growth. 

I'm very glad to have lived in Montgomery all these years, as it has
given me huge opportunities of growth in the quorums. I would have never
imagined I'd be in a bishopric at 28 years of age, for example. Our
elders quorums tend to be very young here, as there just aren't a lot of
bodies, and so people quickly get called into positions of line authority
requiring HP ordination.  But it forces all of us to step up to the plate
and serve.

K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
"No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Marc:
Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that
sincerely),
so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are unlikely,
for one
reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably righteous,
temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to hold a
position
of line authority. Why are people like that ordained to High Priests.
 


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Re: [ZION] What's the point of high priests?

Hey, don't forget about us tweakers!

Gary Smith wrote:

> Don't feel bad, Stephen. You aren't the only antagonist on this list
>
> We have many that love antagonizing others. Perhaps we could use a
> different term though. Antagonize seems so negative, and there is just
> too much negativity these days. Let's try a nicer, more positive word,
> like, Taunt. Yeah, that's it! We have several people on the list who love
> to taunt others.
>
> Now, don't we all feel so much better since we no longer have antagonists
> on the list
>
> Of course, now we have to figure out what to do with all the taunting.
>
> K'aya K'ama,
> Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
> .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
> "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
> Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
>
> Stephen:
> Of course not. Forgive me. I had assume a discussion list was for
> discussing things, which I was attempting to do. I am not unhappy with
> you, with Gary, or with anyone else. I do try to avoid empty "me-too"
> posts, but I did not realize that I always played the antagonist.
>
> Stephen
>
>
> 
>
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] RE: Voting and parties

Sorry, you're right -- you wrote "otherwise." But I don't see that it makes any
difference to my ultimate point. In any case, I've admitted that I should have
asked you what you meant before I responded, so you still have a point.

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> Now, now, Marc. Giving you the last word doesn't mean giving you license
> to misquote and make stuff up. To wit:
>
> > You used the phrase "[here] and elsewhere". It was the
> > "elsewhere" that I was taking objection to.
>
> This is untrue. I did not use the phrase "and elsewhere", as you
> yourself go on to admit:
>
> > Your original: "Much as some, American and otherwise, might
> > find that hard to understand, I think it's tautological."
>
> And it's true. Many, both American and otherwise, find it hard to
> understand that one cannot be a faithful Latter-day Saint and a liberal
> Democrat -- meaning, of course, a supporter of the liberal element of
> the US Democratic Party, as is obvious from context.

Sorry, but it was not obvious to me. Chalk it up either to the ambiguity of human
language, or my own lack of cognitive skills.

> You appear to be a
> shining example of exactly that fact, since you seem not to admit the
> rather obvious truth of the statement (obvious to some of us, at least).
>
> In any case, I made no explicit or implicit claims about word meanings
> "elsewhere" other than the US. Feel free to have the last word, but
> don't use that opportunity to put words in my mouth.
>

Deal. Thanks for a friendly resolution.

>
> Stephen

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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RE: [ZION] RE: Voting and parties

Now, now, Marc. Giving you the last word doesn't mean giving you license 
to misquote and make stuff up. To wit:

> You used the phrase "[here] and elsewhere". It was the
> "elsewhere" that I was taking objection to.

This is untrue. I did not use the phrase "and elsewhere", as you 
yourself go on to admit:

> Your original: "Much as some, American and otherwise, might
> find that hard to understand, I think it's tautological."

And it's true. Many, both American and otherwise, find it hard to 
understand that one cannot be a faithful Latter-day Saint and a liberal 
Democrat -- meaning, of course, a supporter of the liberal element of 
the US Democratic Party, as is obvious from context. You appear to be a 
shining example of exactly that fact, since you seem not to admit the 
rather obvious truth of the statement (obvious to some of us, at least).

In any case, I made no explicit or implicit claims about word meanings 
"elsewhere" other than the US. Feel free to have the last word, but 
don't use that opportunity to put words in my mouth.

Stephen

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RE: [ZION] RE: Voting and parties

At 09:09 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Stephen Beecroft wrote:

But in my judgment, you can't be a liberal Democrat, supporting the 
liberal Democrat party line, and still be a faithful, believing Latter-day 
Saint. Much as some, American and otherwise, might find that hard to 
understand, I think it's tautological.

I am of another opinion.  A liberal Democrat is a socialist, and in no way 
can a socialist be considered a good Mormon. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

At 01:39 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Paul Osborne wrote:

Sounds reasonable to me.

Wouldn't it be a gas to learn that President Hinkley did in fact vote for
Bush? I wonder what JWR would say then? Would he then take back his
Gadianton accusations?


Gore is a Gadianton too, so what choice do any of us have?  I wouldn't 
fault President Hinckley for voting for a Bush Gadianton before a Gore 
Gadianton.  Who knows?  Perhaps he voted for Patrick Buchanan like I 
did.  Or better yet, perhaps he voted the rest of the ballot and left the 
presidential race unmarked.

Isn't it nice when we can speculate about how the Lord's prophet voted?

Some of my best friends are Gadianton Robbers,
John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

At 01:44 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Paul Osborne wrote:

O come on Steven, get real. We don't even know which of the Presidential
candidates the GA's voted for let alone which parties they think the
world leaders are in.


So how come we know where President Benson stood on these issues?  --JWR

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Re:RE: [ZION] Voting and parties

At 08:43 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Val wrote:

And, for the record   I am a good Mormon Democrat (put the 
modifer where you will).  The Republicans in my area are corrupt money 
grubbers.  They could care less about me or any other John Q. Public 
type--just see who can line their pockets the best.

For the last couple of years I've been toying with the idea of becoming a 
Democrat, although as a conservative and Constitutionalist I don't imagine 
I would be a very good Democrat.  But the way I look at it, the Democrats 
need all the help they can get when it comes to understanding the 
issues.  Normally they vote with their heart and not with their brains.  As 
for corruption, that is one of the reasons I am considering abandoning the 
Republican.  If two men are equally corrupt, I will generally despise the 
one that is the more hypocritical about it, and that is usually a Republican.

Still my little jingle holds true.  I would be a bad Democrat because I am 
conservative.  I just wish that some of the Republicans were.  This last 
election settled it for me.  When the people in this country start thinking 
that Bush is a conservative, I know that the ideological battle has been 
lost in a complete rout.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
"Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look
at the word itself: "Mankind".  Basically, it's made up of
two separate words - "mank" and "ind".  What do these
words mean ?  It's a mystery, and that's why so is
mankind."  --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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RE: [ZION] High priests

2002-10-22 Thread Rick Mathis

At 07:40 PM 10/22/2002 +, Stephen wrote:

-Gary-
> The only person among Elders with keys is the Elders Quorum president.

In other words, the only elder with keys is the presiding elder. Well,
of course. And the only high priest with keys is the presiding high
priest.

> Yet, his keys are limited.

As are the bishop's or stake president's.

If a High Priest in our branch (we have 4 of them) wants to baptize one of 
his children, he needs the permission of our Branch President, an 
Elder.  If a High Priest in our branch wants to bless or pass the 
Sacrament, which happens almost every week, he does so with the approval of 
our Branch President, an Elder.  I remember when our Branch President was 
set apart, he was given the keys of presidency, which certainly counts for 
something.

Rick Mathis

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[ZION] Have you found Jesus?


There is a news  story out that a private collector has shown an ossuary
(stone box that holds the bones of a dead person), with the Aramaic
inscription: "James, son of Joseph and brother of Jesus." This dates to
about 70 AD, about the time that James the founder of the Christian
Church in Jerusalem was killed (62 AD). Andre Lemaire, a world reknowned
philologist (ancient languages), says that the inscription dates to the
right time frame. Also, Jews only used ossuaries from 20 BC to 70 AD,
when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem.

Now, the three names were very popular among Jews in that timeframe, so
we do not know for certain if it is the Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ or
not.  However, there probably aren't too many James with a father Joseph
and brother Jesus. Also, it is very uncommon to name one's brother on an
ossuary, unless the person was known for something. Jesus Christ
qualifies.

So, this may become the first non-New Testament evidence that Jesus
actually lived. Yes, there is a reference in Josephus, but most think
that was added later by Christians. Besides that, the earliest mentions
of Christ aren't until the 2nd century AD.


K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
"No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


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[ZION] liberal question

Well, Marc wouldn't fit this, as he isn't Democrat.  So, in the case of
liberal Canadians, I think they are able to be straight laced LDS.

As for liberal Democrats, I think you could have one attending the
temple. However, their belief system would definitely go against the
gospel. The average liberal Democrat (note, I'm not saying just
Democrats, but the liberal ones) here in the US, push for the rights of
sinful groups we can't mention on this list. They would push for
"reproductive rights" which have been condemned by our prophets. 

One can seek for a strong centralized government and be a good member of
the Church. But the other issues are what makes the difference, and our
liberal Democrats have allied themselves with the radical sin groups as
some of their key constituents.

Are there polygamists who attend the temple? Yes. But only until we find
them out. The September 7 of a decade ago were all temple attenders for
years, until they allowed their leftist leaning agendae to get the best
of them.

K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
"No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Victor:
In the area of oxymorons, is it possible to have a card carrying liberal
democrat and a temple going straight laced Latter Day Saint?
 


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[ZION] Jimmy Carter - Nobel winner

Marc, it amazes me how deep you are on so many things, but then you go
and say something that really shows you didn't fully think it through.

An action by a person really doesn't mean much if it doesn't turn out as
it should. Yes, Carter went to N Korea and supposedly defused the
situation in 1994. He got them to sign a piece of paper promising to not
build anymore Nuclear weapons. Now we find that piece of paper wasn't
worth anything. It was a fraud, and if Carter's Nobel prize is based on
that exercise in futility, then maybe he should give it back.  Don't
forget, the Nobel commission hands out prizes to all kinds, even Arafat
has one. I'm just waiting for them to give one to Saddam Hussein, for his
efforts in bringing about peace in the Middle East by financing the
support of those poor suicide-bomber widows in Palestine.

Reagan refused to sign papers, without verification. It makes sense to
not give away your defenses without ensuring the enemy is also going to
abide by that piece of paper. Carter never got any verification added to
that piece of paper, so N Korea got billions from us in aid, and lots of
help in improving their nuclear capabilities.  He's supposed to be a
world genius, and an ex president. You'd think he would have outgrown
that naive stage years ago (like maybe during his 4 years as president),
and not be now gasping in amazement that the communists lied to him
(again).

I'm glad he is against war. But he is a danger to the world, because he
is too naive in his search for peace. Or is it that he's too willing to
give up our freedoms in hopes of having peace? I wouldn't trust Carter to
negotiate a treaty between peanut farmers and cotton farmers, much less
have him making silly treaties like this.

The reality is, the proof is in the pudding. A piece of paper means
nothing. Nixon's withdrawal from Vietnam "with honor" was just as naive
or stupid. Not long after the withdrawal, the South fell to the North.
There was no "with honor" in the effort. Given the outcome, we should
have pulled out in 1968 and saved 40,000 American lives and billions of
dollars.

George Sr's treaties with Iraq are also showing wear and tear. Iraq is
laughing at the agreements. Of course we need to go back in, in order to
cram that paper down Saddam's little throat!

And Clinton's treaties for England/Ireland, Israel/Palestine, and several
others are in the toilet, also. We're killing trees for no reason
whatsoever, because no one is willing to put teeth into any of these
treaties.

You'll note I haven't spared either political party. The reality is,
people are either trustworthy or they aren't. A wise man learns to
quickly recognize just who is going to play nice and by the rules, and
who isn't. Any honest historian would have told you that the Palestinians
and N Koreans and Iraqis would not keep their promises, unless it was
beneficial to them. How? Because history shows a pattern of lies and
deceit. the leopard does not change his spots easily.

There are only two types of events that have gotten people to actually
change: conversion to the gospel, and total humiliation through an
all-out war.  Germans and Japanese aren't militarily aggressive anymore,
because they were so devastated in war, it changed their world-view
suddenly. It took being shell-shocked as bad as they were in Dresden and
Hiroshima, to make serious changes. 

We either have to convert these terrorist nations to the gospel to get
them to change, or we need to bomb them into the Stone Age, then rebuild
them in our likeness.

A piece of paper just will not do. Unless it gives the bad guy a mean
paper cut

And Carter isn't an American. He's a wacko.

K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
"No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


Marc:
Incidentally, just to twit those who belittle Jimmy Carter's long
crusade against war, it was Carter who went to Pyongyang about 6 or 7
years ago and defused the last dangerous situationt here. Maybe Bush
should use Carter this time, too ;-)


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[ZION] What's the point of high priests?

Don't feel bad, Stephen. You aren't the only antagonist on this list

We have many that love antagonizing others. Perhaps we could use a
different term though. Antagonize seems so negative, and there is just
too much negativity these days. Let's try a nicer, more positive word,
like, Taunt. Yeah, that's it! We have several people on the list who love
to taunt others.

Now, don't we all feel so much better since we no longer have antagonists
on the list

Of course, now we have to figure out what to do with all the taunting.

K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
"No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


Stephen:
Of course not. Forgive me. I had assume a discussion list was for 
discussing things, which I was attempting to do. I am not unhappy with 
you, with Gary, or with anyone else. I do try to avoid empty "me-too" 
posts, but I did not realize that I always played the antagonist.
 
Stephen
 


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Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro

Clifford M Dubery wrote:

> Stephen, for some reason I didn't get your post so I am replying to Marc's and yours.
>
> I take my civic responsibilities seriously and decided some years ago, to join a 
>political party.  My judgement was, the better party as far as my own beliefs and 
>interests go was the ALP. I felt corruption (read, influence of the Gaddianton, or 
>Rupert Murdoch, or both) was too much in the Liberal Party, that the Liberal Party 
>had become the Tory Party by another name, and the common wealth would be ignored by 
>such an organization.  Joining the Democrats or the Greens would have been a waste of 
>time, in my opinion.  Incidentally, the Greens just this past week have won a seat in 
>the federal parliaments House of Representatives for the first time ever.  It was a 
>by-election (something you USAmericans don't have, with your fixed terms) and the 
>normally strong Labor seat in Wollongong went to the Greens on preferences. (a 
>different way of counting votes).  Labor is shell shocked, the Liberals couldn't have 
>a bigger grin (they didn't run a candidate).  Politics is never dull.
>

Australia has, in my opinion, the fairest method of proportional representation on the 
planet -- this is what Clifford is referring to when he talks about preferences. It 
means you can rank your votes first choice, second choice, and so on.  We sorely need 
that kind of reform here in Canada.

>
> I don't always win my battles within the party, but at least I get a chance, and no 
>one is lining my pocket or appealing to my base instincts of greed.
>
> There you go, I think my TR is in tact and my salvation.
>
> How many members do nothing, when it comes to civic duties and responsibilities, in 
>spite of encouragement from our prophet's and apostles, and what the scriptures tell 
>us?
>
> Clifford M Dubery
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst 
thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debatedTo 
think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any 
idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to 
understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. 
 Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian 
Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; 
its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of 
any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro

2002-10-22 Thread Clifford M Dubery

Stephen, for some reason I didn't get your post so I am replying to Marc's and yours.

I take my civic responsibilities seriously and decided some years ago, to join a 
political party.  My judgement was, the better party as far as my own beliefs and 
interests go was the ALP. I felt corruption (read, influence of the Gaddianton, or 
Rupert Murdoch, or both) was too much in the Liberal Party, that the Liberal Party had 
become the Tory Party by another name, and the common wealth would be ignored by such 
an organization.  Joining the Democrats or the Greens would have been a waste of time, 
in my opinion.  Incidentally, the Greens just this past week have won a seat in the 
federal parliaments House of Representatives for the first time ever.  It was a 
by-election (something you USAmericans don't have, with your fixed terms) and the 
normally strong Labor seat in Wollongong went to the Greens on preferences. (a 
different way of counting votes).  Labor is shell shocked, the Liberals couldn't have 
a bigger grin (they didn't run a candidate).  Politics is never dull.

I don't always win my battles within the party, but at least I get a chance, and no 
one is lining my pocket or appealing to my base instincts of greed.

There you go, I think my TR is in tact and my salvation.   

How many members do nothing, when it comes to civic duties and responsibilities, in 
spite of encouragement from our prophet's and apostles, and what the scriptures tell 
us?

Clifford M Dubery

- Original Message -
From: Marc A. Schindler
Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2002 06:21
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro

As might your post wrt the list's charter :-/

If, otoh, he takes Pres. Jensen's approach, he works as a force for good from
within, then he's following the brethren's counsel.

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Clifford-
> > Well well well, what a discussion about whether Castro was a
> > communist as before the revolution or even earlier.  One would
> > think this some how negates his concerns about the poverty of
> > his people and the domination of his country by US corporations
>
> Yes, I suppose one might think that, if one had not been paying
> attention to the thread of discussion.
>
> > If being a Democrat in the US is a threat to ones worthiness,
> > where does that put me, a member of the Australian Labor Party?
>
> If your membership in the Australian Labor Party puts you in support of
>  and of expanding the influence of the 
> lobby, then I would say that puts you in a very precarious position
> indeed.
>
> Stephen
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars”

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Bad feelings

Stephen, I don't want the "last word" in that sense, and I certainly don't want
to leave a bitter feeling in anyone's mind. I think our problem is that we're
talking past each other. It happens often -- it's human nature. Human language is
ambiguous by nature -- it's not like a programming language. If I may be so bold,
I think what you see me doing is persisting in making an argument in
contradiction to what you have read in my earlier posts. From my p.o.v., what I
see is that try to tell me what I said, rather than ask what I meant.

May I suggest an approach for future bouts of "intellectual arm-wrestling"? I'll
try not to keep pushing the issue if you, when you think I've contradicted
myself, *ask* for an explanation rather than confronting me with your
interpretation of what I wrote.

This works the other way around, too. When you made your comment about liberals
and referred to "America and elsewhere" my immediate, instinctive response was to
remind you that the rest of the world ("elsewhere") doesn't necessarily use words
the way they're used in the U.S. It was only later, upon reflection, that it
occurred to me that the term "elsewhere" might have been intended to mean that
people outside the US might not understand that idiosyncratic usage, the way you
and a fellow national were using it. I should have asked what you meant instead
of instinctively responding the way I did. I'm sorry for that.

As for the other points, I don't know what else to do. I am not anti-U.S. I think
I've explained that well enough and don't know what else I can say. I certainly
don't mean to offend anyone, and apologize if that's been the case.

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> Marc, this back-and-forth between us has long ago degenerated into
> name-calling and accusations from your part, to the point that I am no
> longer enjoying the correspondence and find myself tempted to respond to
> you in kind. That's silly, of course; there is no point in being on a
> discussion list that raises bad feelings. So go ahead and have The Last
> Word in the discussions. Claim you meant the opposite of what you said.
> Claim you said the opposite of what you said. Say that black is white,
> up is down, and Canada is south. Whatever. I've had more than enough of
> this discussion. Congratulations! Your perseverence has won you yet
> another round.
>
> But don't think this means I won't respond any more to your comically
> anti-US remarks or point out glaring flaws in your logic. I'll just try
> to be nicer about it, and not to care too much when you refuse to admit
> to what you said and do a 180 while claiming you're facing the same
> direction as always.
>
> Stephen
>
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] RE: Voting and parties

Yer a gay blade, y'are, Paul ;-)
(as they still say in Newfoundland)

Paul Osborne wrote:

> >Please don't define *our* language for us. You can demonize the word all
> you
> >want, but please keep your etymological waste products to yourself.
> "Liberal" is
> >still a perfectly fine word in the majority of the English-speaking
> world.
>
> I agree. The Republicans are trying to kill a perfectly good word just
> like certain people killed the word gay.
>
> I hope everyone has a gay weekend. :-))
>
> ha ha ha
>
> Paul O
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> 
>
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

OK. I was just wondering -- I won't argue the point.

Paul Osborne wrote:

> Marc:
> >Now this is an interesting thought. Do you really think this follows?
> (that the
> >prophet's personal vote should, if it were known, be the example for the
> rest of
> >us?) And how do you handle the fact that in any case this *can* only
> apply to a
> >minority of LDS, since most LDS are not US?
>
> First, I only care about the US and me and the prophet are both US
> citizens. Second, I have to assume that the prophet carefully and
> prayerfully selects his candidate because that is what the First
> Presidency tells us to do and I know that they are not hypocrites but
> practice what they preach. And, since I'm lazy, if I knew who the prophet
> voted for I figure the thinking has been done and would vote the same.
> Sure, you betcha, I'd ride the prophet's inspired coattails.
>
> he he
>
> Paul O
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> 
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

Marc:
>Now this is an interesting thought. Do you really think this follows?
(that the
>prophet's personal vote should, if it were known, be the example for the
rest of
>us?) And how do you handle the fact that in any case this *can* only
apply to a
>minority of LDS, since most LDS are not US?


First, I only care about the US and me and the prophet are both US
citizens. Second, I have to assume that the prophet carefully and
prayerfully selects his candidate because that is what the First
Presidency tells us to do and I know that they are not hypocrites but
practice what they preach. And, since I'm lazy, if I knew who the prophet
voted for I figure the thinking has been done and would vote the same.
Sure, you betcha, I'd ride the prophet's inspired coattails. 

he he

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

At 05:42 PM 10/22/2002, you wrote:

>It was merely a rhetorical question.


Oh. I'm a little dumb.

;-)

Paul O


As we all are at times. ;-)



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

Paul Osborne wrote:

>
>
> My point was two fold. If Bush was indeed a Gadianton as JWR says he is
> it would be a sad and sorry thing for President Hinkley to vote for him.
> That would really bother me quite a bit. O boy O boy!
>

I'm not sure I see that, but I won't argue the point.

>
> Second, it would be nice to vote for the same candidate as the prophet
> does. That's the best choice if you ask me. So, who all on this list
> voted for Bush?
>

Now this is an interesting thought. Do you really think this follows? (that the
prophet's personal vote should, if it were known, be the example for the rest of
us?) And how do you handle the fact that in any case this *can* only apply to a
minority of LDS, since most LDS are not US?

>
> Paul O

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] RE: Voting and parties

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Val-
> >  I am a good Mormon Democrat
>
> -Stephen-
> > Then I'm willing to bet you're not a liberal Democrat.
>
> -Marc-
> > Please don't define *our* language for us.
>
> Marc, I am talking to a fellow American here,

You used the phrase "[here] and elsewhere". It was the "elsewhere" that I was
taking objection to.

Your original: "Much as some, American and otherwise, might find that hard to
understand, I think it's tautological." You left that off your quote, above.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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[ZION] Bad feelings

Marc, this back-and-forth between us has long ago degenerated into 
name-calling and accusations from your part, to the point that I am no 
longer enjoying the correspondence and find myself tempted to respond to 
you in kind. That's silly, of course; there is no point in being on a 
discussion list that raises bad feelings. So go ahead and have The Last 
Word in the discussions. Claim you meant the opposite of what you said. 
Claim you said the opposite of what you said. Say that black is white, 
up is down, and Canada is south. Whatever. I've had more than enough of 
this discussion. Congratulations! Your perseverence has won you yet 
another round.

But don't think this means I won't respond any more to your comically 
anti-US remarks or point out glaring flaws in your logic. I'll just try 
to be nicer about it, and not to care too much when you refuse to admit 
to what you said and do a 180 while claiming you're facing the same 
direction as always.

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

>It was merely a rhetorical question.


Oh. I'm a little dumb. 

;-)

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Cult of personality

Thanks for the additional information.

Steven Montgomery wrote:

> At 12:25 PM 10/22/2002, Marc wrote regarding the website www.rescue007.org:
>
> >AFAI am concerned, the site's purpose is to sell a book. But when I get to the
> >other side I'll look for any KAL 007 vets. Who knows.
>
> I don't think the site sell's enough books to pay for itself. The reason
> Bert Schlossberg is interested in this subject is that he was the son in
> law of one of the passengers on the plane. Since he was closely connected
> to the "Israeli Research Center for Prisons, Psychprisons, and Forced Labor
> Concentration Camps of the USSR, and its director Avraham Shifrin,
> Schlossberg was able to follow closely the revelations about KAL 007, its
> landing and the survival of those aboard." Interestingly enough former
> Soviet military personnel who started to immigrate to Israel kept up a
> steady flow of information  Reports of survivors and other information
> about KAL007 began to flow into Israel when former Soviet Military
> personnel began arriving as immigrants and becoming citizens of Israel. He
> holds a masters degree near eastern studies and currently teaches Aramaic,
> Syriac and Hebrew at Israel College of the Bible. (See his short bio:
> http://www.rescue007.org/bert_schlossberg.htm)
>
> As I mentioned Schlossberg has no connection with the John Birch Society,
> but interestingly enough the JBS have maintained for years that there are
> many unanswered questions about what really happened to flight KAL007:
> http://www.thenewamerican.com/focus/mcdonald/kal/index.htm
>
> --
> Steven Montgomery
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> "Secret combinations . . . are built up to get power, gain, and glory of
> the world. (See Hel. 7:5; Ether 8:9, 16, 22-23; Moses 5:31.) . . . Secret
> combinations brought down both the Jaredite and the Nephite civilizations
> and [have] been and will yet be the cause of the fall of many nations. (See
> Ether 8:18-25.)" (President Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, Oct. 1989,
> Ensign, May 1989, p. 6.)
>
> /
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>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a
coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor
those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Stephen-
> > Interesting. So, then, what did you intend to say when you wrote:
> >
> >  So to say that my late father was a Democrat means that he
> >  was registered as a Democrat. As it happens, this is pretty
> >  meaningless, because the vote is secret, and you can vote
> >  for whomever you like.
> >
>
> -Marc-
> >  You know, this isn't rocket science.
>
> No, it's not. It's called "reading".
>
> > All you have to do is read, not cut and paste selectively
> > in what appears to be a deliberately polemical way.
>
> In fact, I cut and pasted to preserve the meaning as much as possible
> without simply requoting your entire email.
>
> > I had already made my point about state conventions, then went
> > on to write what you've quoted.
>
> Wrong. The part I quoted was at the beginning of your email. You then
> went on to expound even more after that.
>

Stephen, please knock it off. You know darn well thiw wasn't the beginning of my
email -- you'd already quoted the whole paragraph before. Before I wrote what you
quoted, I wrote, "Being a 'member' of a party in our Westminster system means
something different than it does in the U.S. In  the U.S. every voter registers
for a party (or as an independent -- as I  recall the rules vary considerably
from state to state, as to how the states elect their delegates to the party
national conventions). "  This was then followed by what you selectively quoted,
"So to say that my late father was a Democrat means that he was registered as a
Democrat. As it happens, this is pretty meaningless, because the vote is secret,
and you can vote for whomever you like." I changed my focus from state
conventions (primaries) to elections. If you don't want to accept my explanation
as to what I was thinking when I wrote this, then there's no point continuing
this as far as I'm concerned. You see what you want to see.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] RE: Voting and parties

>Please don't define *our* language for us. You can demonize the word all
you
>want, but please keep your etymological waste products to yourself.
"Liberal" is
>still a perfectly fine word in the majority of the English-speaking
world.


I agree. The Republicans are trying to kill a perfectly good word just
like certain people killed the word gay. 

I hope everyone has a gay weekend. :-))

ha ha ha 

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

Marc:
>Although I don't agree with John's terminology and system of reference
in this
>regard, logically speaking I don't see why he'd have to take back his
>accusations. It's still a civic duty to vote -- that's clear LDS
doctrine as far
>as I know (okay, I'm extrapolating from the 12th AoF, but the point is I
don't
>think it's a controversial view).


My point was two fold. If Bush was indeed a Gadianton as JWR says he is
it would be a sad and sorry thing for President Hinkley to vote for him.
That would really bother me quite a bit. O boy O boy!

Second, it would be nice to vote for the same candidate as the prophet
does. That's the best choice if you ask me. So, who all on this list
voted for Bush?

Paul O
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RE: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)

-Stephen-
> Interesting. So, then, what did you intend to say when you wrote:
>
>  So to say that my late father was a Democrat means that he
>  was registered as a Democrat. As it happens, this is pretty
>  meaningless, because the vote is secret, and you can vote
>  for whomever you like.
>

-Marc-
>  You know, this isn't rocket science.

No, it's not. It's called "reading".

> All you have to do is read, not cut and paste selectively
> in what appears to be a deliberately polemical way.

In fact, I cut and pasted to preserve the meaning as much as possible 
without simply requoting your entire email.

> I had already made my point about state conventions, then went
> on to write what you've quoted.

Wrong. The part I quoted was at the beginning of your email. You then 
went on to expound even more after that.

> Again you've quoted me out of context.

Marc, go back and read your email. I have quoted you perfectly in 
context. Sheesh. Just admit you were wrong, and you really don't know 
everything, despite how you might wish to appear.

> This particular reference is to voting following the primaries.

No, Marc, it is not. Would you like me to quote your email at length and 
demonstrate that you were *not* talking about "voting following the 
primaries"? I can. Easier would be for you to go back and read what you 
wrote.

> Was it that hard to figure out, or are you your own worst
> enemy when it comes to understanding what others write?

Is it that hard to be honest, Marc, or are you your own worst enemy in 
remembering what you yourself wrote?

> If you were referring to primaries, then why did you say that
> affilliation was "meaningless, because...you can vote for
> whomever you like"? This is clearly false, even in primaries.

You lose either way. Either you were talking about primaries, as you 
claimed second, in which case you are just plain wrong; or else, as you 
originally (and now again) say, you were talking about the general 
election, in which case your claim that everyone had to be registered 
with a party is clearly false in every single state.

-Stephen-
> And you never did respond to the question of why your
> statement, "[i]n the U.S. every voter registers for a
> party (or as an independent)", was not false on its face,
> given that not all states require registration in a party to
> participate in primaries, much less the general election.

-Marc-
> Because I thought it was a dumb question, if you really
> insist on an answer.

And yet, you still don't answer the "dumb" question. Probably because 
the "dumb" question shows that you are wrong. Your statement was false, 
any way you slice it. There is no sense in which your claim "In the U.S 
every voter registers for a party (or as an independent)" is true.

Curses upon those dumb questions!

> If you want me to be tactful, give me room to be tactful.

Marc, I no more expect you to be tactful than I expect a skunk to smell 
nice. Your tact, such as it is, almost always ends whenever you are 
shown to be wrong. I must admit, however, you put on a most impressive 
display of gymnastic ability in seeking to avoid direct responses to 
challenges to your assertions and claims.

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] High priests

Gary said:
> There isn't anymore salvation promised to a high priest as to
> an elder (as the MP is all that is required in this life), 

Yep.

>but
> eventually (presumably if not now, in the next life) one will
> have to be a high priest to preside over a presidency in heaven.

I don't think so Gary and neither does Bruce R. McConkie:
"Only an elder! Only the office which enables a man to enter the new and
everlasting covenant of marriage and to have his wife and children bound
to him with an everlasting tie; only the office which prepares a man to
be a natural patriarch to his posterity and to hold dominion in the house
of Israel forever; only the office required for the receipt of the
fullness of the blessings in the house of the Lord; only the office which
opens the door to eternal exaltation in the highest heaven of the
celestial world, where man becomes as God is.

I would say that you don't have to hold the priesthood to make it into
the lower realm of the celestial kingdom and you don't have to be a High
Priest to be exalted in the highest. I see the office of High Priest as
pertaining to this earth only. The same with apostle too.
Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Marc-
> > Exactly. I was referring to state party conventions, what you
> > call in US English, primaries.
>
> Interesting. So, then, what did you intend to say when you wrote:
>
>  So to say that my late father was a Democrat means that he
>  was registered as a Democrat. As it happens, this is pretty
>  meaningless, because the vote is secret, and you can vote
>  for whomever you like.
>

 You know, this isn't rocket science. All you have to do is read, not cut
and paste selectively in what appears to be a deliberately polemical way. I had
already made my point about state conventions, then went on to write what you've
quoted. Again you've quoted me out of context.  This particular reference is to
voting following the primaries. Was it that hard to figure out, or are you your
own worst enemy when it comes to understanding what others write?

>
> If you were referring to primaries, then why did you say that
> affilliation was "meaningless, because...you can vote for whomever you
> like"? This is clearly false, even in primaries. And you never did
> respond to the question of why your statement, "[i]n the U.S. every
> voter registers for a party (or as an independent)", was not false on
> its face, given that not all states require registration in a party to
> participate in primaries, much less the general election.
>

Because I thought it was a dumb question, if you really insist on an answer. If
you want me to be tactful, give me room to be tactful.

>
> Clarifyingly,
>
> Stephen
>

Be careful what you ask for. You might get it. Clarification, in this case.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey



Steven Montgomery wrote:

> Then what are we arguing about?

Who's on first, I guess :-)


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a
coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor
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RE: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)

-Marc-
> Exactly. I was referring to state party conventions, what you
> call in US English, primaries.

Interesting. So, then, what did you intend to say when you wrote:

 So to say that my late father was a Democrat means that he
 was registered as a Democrat. As it happens, this is pretty
 meaningless, because the vote is secret, and you can vote
 for whomever you like.

If you were referring to primaries, then why did you say that 
affilliation was "meaningless, because...you can vote for whomever you 
like"? This is clearly false, even in primaries. And you never did 
respond to the question of why your statement, "[i]n the U.S. every 
voter registers for a party (or as an independent)", was not false on 
its face, given that not all states require registration in a party to 
participate in primaries, much less the general election.

Clarifyingly,

Stephen

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RE: [ZION] RE: Voting and parties

-Val-
>  I am a good Mormon Democrat

-Stephen-
> Then I'm willing to bet you're not a liberal Democrat.

-Marc-
> Please don't define *our* language for us.

Marc, I am talking to a fellow American here, not to an Aussie or a 
Brit. If your understanding of American politics too sparse to acquaint 
you with the commonly-used term "liberal Democrat", then you should 
consider sparing yourself the embarrassment of demonstrating that 
ignorance in front of everyone.

> "Liberal" is still a perfectly fine word in the majority of
> the English-speaking world.

Indeed, it is so in the US, too. But since this was a case of two 
Americans talking about American politics, the phrase had a 
well-understood meaning -- well-understood, that is, to those who 
understand American politics. Since you obviously do not, you would 
probably do well not to insert uninformed, meaningless etymological 
commentary.

Helpfully,

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] Tweaking Canada

At 01:23 PM 10/22/2002, you wrote:

I think it's time I correct an impression that I somehow have an anti-US
bias. I can see how that would come out, and those of you who know me
from LDS-Poll would see it even more there. The reasons, from *my*
perspective, for this are that I am by nature a bit of a contrarian, or
as I would put it, a "force of balance." I'm the kind of person who
would join the Democrats if I moved to Utah (or the Republicans if I
moved to, well, wherever) What needs balancing, in my opinion?


Anyone who's a contrarian can't be all bad. I like to think of myself as 
one--constantly going against the grain. 



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

At 11:58 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote:



Straw man, Steven. I have never tried to argue that Castro is not 
Communist, is not
a dictator. We are talking right past each other. I'm admitting all the 
bad things
you are saying about him, but saying that the US had a large -- indeed, 
the major
-- part to play in paving the way for him to come to power. You could have
prevented it by nurturing democracy but you chose instead to nurture 
tyranny. I
don't care what colour you paint the giant bronze statue in the town square --
Communist red is the same as Fascist brown  or Plutocratic green and gold 
in my
books.

Then what are we arguing about? Because I generally agree with your 
position here. Gadianton Robbers located in the U.S. *did* have a great 
part to play in Castro coming to power. Just as they played a part in the 
Bolshevik revolution and helping Mao come to power. Such was the general 
thesis in books such as, _None Dare Call It Conspiracy_, _The Naked 
Capitalist_, and others.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

At 12:44 PM 10/22/2002, you wrote:

>Trouble is, where is the General Authority
>who disagrees with ETB regarding this particular issue, that of Fidel
>Castro being a communist? I haven't been able to find one. Perhaps there
is
>a general consensus then?

O come on Steven, get real. We don't even know which of the Presidential
candidates the GA's voted for let alone which parties they think the
world leaders are in.

Paul O

It was merely a rhetorical question.

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[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Explore Freedom: http://www.geocities.com/graymada

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Re: [ZION] Cult of personality

At 12:25 PM 10/22/2002, Marc wrote regarding the website www.rescue007.org:



AFAI am concerned, the site's purpose is to sell a book. But when I get to the
other side I'll look for any KAL 007 vets. Who knows.


I don't think the site sell's enough books to pay for itself. The reason 
Bert Schlossberg is interested in this subject is that he was the son in 
law of one of the passengers on the plane. Since he was closely connected 
to the "Israeli Research Center for Prisons, Psychprisons, and Forced Labor 
Concentration Camps of the USSR, and its director Avraham Shifrin, 
Schlossberg was able to follow closely the revelations about KAL 007, its 
landing and the survival of those aboard." Interestingly enough former 
Soviet military personnel who started to immigrate to Israel kept up a 
steady flow of information  Reports of survivors and other information 
about KAL007 began to flow into Israel when former Soviet Military 
personnel began arriving as immigrants and becoming citizens of Israel. He 
holds a masters degree near eastern studies and currently teaches Aramaic, 
Syriac and Hebrew at Israel College of the Bible. (See his short bio: 
http://www.rescue007.org/bert_schlossberg.htm)

As I mentioned Schlossberg has no connection with the John Birch Society, 
but interestingly enough the JBS have maintained for years that there are 
many unanswered questions about what really happened to flight KAL007: 
http://www.thenewamerican.com/focus/mcdonald/kal/index.htm


--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"Secret combinations . . . are built up to get power, gain, and glory of 
the world. (See Hel. 7:5; Ether 8:9, 16, 22-23; Moses 5:31.) . . . Secret 
combinations brought down both the Jaredite and the Nephite civilizations 
and [have] been and will yet be the cause of the fall of many nations. (See 
Ether 8:18-25.)" (President Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, Oct. 1989, 
Ensign, May 1989, p. 6.)

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Re: [ZION] RE: Voting and parties

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Val-
> > And, for the record   I am a good Mormon Democrat (put
> > the modifer where you will).
>
> Then I'm willing to bet you're not a liberal Democrat. Because of that,
> many other Democrats would certainly not consider you to be "good". But
> I agree with you; it's possible to be a faithful Latter-day Saint and a
> "good" Democrat. Indeed, it's impossible to be a faithful Latter-day
> Saint and any other kind of Democrat. But in my judgment, you can't be a
> liberal Democrat, supporting the liberal Democrat party line, and still
> be a faithful, believing Latter-day Saint. Much as some, American and
> otherwise,

Please don't define *our* language for us. You can demonize the word all you
want, but please keep your etymological waste products to yourself. "Liberal" is
still a perfectly fine word in the majority of the English-speaking world.

> might find that hard to understand, I think it's
> tautological.
>

Stephen, we're both wound too tautologically, I think that's our problem :-)

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)

Exactly. I was referring to state party conventions, what you call in US English,
primaries.

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Marc-
> > In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an
> > independent -- as I recall the rules vary considerably from
>
> -Stephen-
> > This is not correct.
>
> -Marc-
> > Please don't interrupt.
>
> Oops. My bad. I had thought this was John Redelfs' discussion list, not
> Marc Schindler's lecture hall. Silly me.
>
> > If you read the whole post, I made clear that this was to
> > vote in party conventions -- what you call primaries.
>
> Wrong. Your first paragraph was: "Being a 'member' of a party in our
> Westminster system means something different than it does in the U.S. In
> the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent -- as I
> recall the rules vary considerably from state to state, as to how the
> states elect their delegates to the party national conventions). So to
> say that my late father was a Democrat means that he was registered as a
> Democrat. As it happens, this is pretty meaningless, because the vote is
> secret, and you can vote for whomever you like."
>
> This paragraph clearly was referring to the general election, since you
> said affiliation was "meaningless" and that "you can vote for whomever
> you like", something not possible in primaries. Only in your next
> paragraph did you go on to discuss primaries.
>
> Even if you had "made clear that this was to vote in...primaries",
> you're still wrong. In no sense is it true that "[i]n the U.S. every
> voter registers for a party (or as an independent)". A great many voters
> do not register under any affiliation whatsoever, and some states allow
> participation in primaries without a declared affiliation.
>
>  Maybe you should read your own posts more carefully.
> Alternatively, you could admit when you're wrong...oh, never mind. No
> use dwelling in a land of fantasy. 
>
> Tweakin' Stephen
>
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>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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RE: [ZION] RE: Voting and parties

-Val-
> And, for the record   I am a good Mormon Democrat (put
> the modifer where you will).

Then I'm willing to bet you're not a liberal Democrat. Because of that, 
many other Democrats would certainly not consider you to be "good". But 
I agree with you; it's possible to be a faithful Latter-day Saint and a 
"good" Democrat. Indeed, it's impossible to be a faithful Latter-day 
Saint and any other kind of Democrat. But in my judgment, you can't be a 
liberal Democrat, supporting the liberal Democrat party line, and still 
be a faithful, believing Latter-day Saint. Much as some, American and 
otherwise, might find that hard to understand, I think it's 
tautological.

> my role as a registered Democrat is to find fault with
> everything he does.

Do you really believe this? Because if it's true, then even if the mayor 
were a paragon of virtue and you agreed with all his decisions, your 
"role as a registered Democrat" would still be "to find fault with 
everything he does".

For what it's worth, I don't think it's ever our role to find fault with 
our leaders; but if the fault is there, then we should certainly do what 
we can to ameliorate the situation. Our elected leaders are our leaders, 
whether we agree with them or not, and they ought to be viewed and 
treated as such. Much as I disliked the Clinton presidency, I never had 
a "My President is Charlton Heston / Newt Gingrich / Gordon Hinckley" 
bumper sticker. I might speak out against him, but I give him his due.

Stephen

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RE: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)

-Marc-
> In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an
> independent -- as I recall the rules vary considerably from

-Stephen-
> This is not correct.

-Marc-
> Please don't interrupt.

Oops. My bad. I had thought this was John Redelfs' discussion list, not 
Marc Schindler's lecture hall. Silly me.

> If you read the whole post, I made clear that this was to
> vote in party conventions -- what you call primaries.

Wrong. Your first paragraph was: "Being a 'member' of a party in our 
Westminster system means something different than it does in the U.S. In 
the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent -- as I 
recall the rules vary considerably from state to state, as to how the 
states elect their delegates to the party national conventions). So to 
say that my late father was a Democrat means that he was registered as a 
Democrat. As it happens, this is pretty meaningless, because the vote is 
secret, and you can vote for whomever you like."

This paragraph clearly was referring to the general election, since you 
said affiliation was "meaningless" and that "you can vote for whomever 
you like", something not possible in primaries. Only in your next 
paragraph did you go on to discuss primaries.

Even if you had "made clear that this was to vote in...primaries", 
you're still wrong. In no sense is it true that "[i]n the U.S. every 
voter registers for a party (or as an independent)". A great many voters 
do not register under any affiliation whatsoever, and some states allow 
participation in primaries without a declared affiliation.

 Maybe you should read your own posts more carefully. 
Alternatively, you could admit when you're wrong...oh, never mind. No 
use dwelling in a land of fantasy. 

Tweakin' Stephen

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RE: [ZION] Tweaking Canada

-Stephen-
> Let's see if I understand what you wrote. Here is what I heard:
>
> "I am not anti-US. Rather, I am anti-Big-Kahoona, and the US is
> the Big Kahoona right now."
>
> Please confirm if I have actual reason to laugh, or if I've somehow
> misunderstood you.

-Marc-
> I think my original post was clear enough that it doesn't need
> further clarification.

Agreed. As I've shown above, your meaning was crystal clear. I was just 
trying to give you a chance to back out gracefully.

> 

You're just jealous that I do it so much better than you.

Stephen

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Re:RE: [ZION] Voting and parties

2002-10-22 Thread Val

-- Larry Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Mark Gregson:

You mean to say that you cannot vote in the US unless you register 
your "preference"?  Is that true?  And if it is, what's the point 
of it?  Since your vote is secret, why register a preference?

___

I do not recall living in a state where you had to declare a party 
preference in order to register to vote.

In the state where I now live, if you vote in a primary election, 
you vote only in the primary election of one particular party.  You 
automatically become a member of that party and you cannot vote 
or participate in the other party's election.
--
val:
That is how it is here in Indiana--for the primary, we must declare a party, and then 
the voting machine is actually locked for the other party.  It's frustrating to me, 
because we only get two choices here for the primary--Republican or Democrat.  We do 
not have an Independent choice.

And, for the record   I am a good Mormon Democrat (put the modifer where you 
will).  The Republicans in my area are corrupt money grubbers.  They could care less 
about me or any other John Q. Public type--just see who can line their pockets the 
best.  

Our current Republican mayor is an idiot.  I even told him to his face, in a city 
council meeting, that I do not like him and my role as a registered Democrat is to 
find fault with everything he does.  I must tell you, to put this into context, that 
it was a hearing on a new anti-porn city ordinance that I was STRONGLY in favor of, so 
after I had my say to the mayor, I conceded that I agreed with him on this (even 
though I know it was the City Council who initiated it).  I will never forget the 
shocked look on his face as the standing-room-only crowd roared.

The funny part, really, was that in that entire room, only one person spoke against 
the ordinance--the ACLU lawyer.  I had the unfortunate luck to be seated next to him.  
Turns out he went to school with my brother yadda yadda yadda.  After I spoke, he 
wouldn't say word one to me.  Funny thing--politics is.





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Re: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Marc-
> > In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an
> > independent -- as I recall the rules vary considerably from
>
> This is not correct.

Please don't interrupt. If you read the whole post, I made clear that this was to
vote in party conventions -- what you call primaries.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Tweaking Canada

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Marc-
> > I think it's time I correct an impression that I somehow have
> > an anti-US bias. [...] I am by nature a bit of a contrarian [...]
> > the US is the superpower de jour. A century ago I would have
> > been "anti-English" so to speak.
>
> Let's see if I understand what you wrote. Here is what I heard:
>
> "I am not anti-US. Rather, I am anti-Big-Kahoona, and the US is the Big
> Kahoona right now."
>
> Please confirm if I have actual reason to laugh, or if I've somehow
> misunderstood you.
>

I think my original post was clear enough that it doesn't need further
clarification.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro

As might your post wrt the list's charter :-/

If, otoh, he takes Pres. Jensen's approach, he works as a force for good from
within, then he's following the brethren's counsel.

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Clifford-
> > Well well well, what a discussion about whether Castro was a
> > communist as before the revolution or even earlier.  One would
> > think this some how negates his concerns about the poverty of
> > his people and the domination of his country by US corporations
>
> Yes, I suppose one might think that, if one had not been paying
> attention to the thread of discussion.
>
> > If being a Democrat in the US is a threat to ones worthiness,
> > where does that put me, a member of the Australian Labor Party?
>
> If your membership in the Australian Labor Party puts you in support of
>  and of expanding the influence of the 
> lobby, then I would say that puts you in a very precarious position
> indeed.
>
> Stephen
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

Although I don't agree with John's terminology and system of reference in this
regard, logically speaking I don't see why he'd have to take back his
accusations. It's still a civic duty to vote -- that's clear LDS doctrine as far
as I know (okay, I'm extrapolating from the 12th AoF, but the point is I don't
think it's a controversial view).

Paul Osborne wrote:

> Sounds reasonable to me.
>
> Wouldn't it be a gas to learn that President Hinkley did in fact vote for
> Bush? I wonder what JWR would say then? Would he then take back his
> Gadianton
> accusations?
>
> Paul O
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] High priests have money

I think I see your point, even past the tongue in your cheek, and hadn't thought
about that. The Lord needs a pool to draw from, and the HP are that pool, so
whether any given HP is or is not eventually called to what I keep calling a
posiiton of line authority (to use a secular term) is irrelevant. Is that what
you're saying? It makes sense to me. In fact, it reminds me in many ways of a
talk BRMcC gave in, iirc, 1975, at a Friday Forum at the U of Utah Institute of
Religion. He said there were more than enough men in the Church who were
spiritually competent to be GAs, but the Church also needs secular skills of
leadership, management and experience (sometimes in specialized areas, and here I
think of 2 of my fellow nationals, Alexander Morrison, an "Africa man" and N.
Eldon Tanner, who is largely credited with saving the Church's finances in the
early 60s. Both of them were "fast-tracked" into GA-hood, if I can put it that
way).

Paul Osborne wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:54:03 -0600 "Marc A. Schindler"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that
> > sincerely),
> > so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are
> > unlikely, for one
> > reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably
> > righteous,
> > temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to hold
> > a position
> > of line authority. Why are people like that ordained to High
> > Priests.
> >
> > I know there's an implicit assumption here, so I'll make it
> > explicit: I'm
> > assuming that there are people in this set (I think I'm one of
> > them). But I could
> > be wrong -- it's an assumption.
>
> $$$ High Callings $$$
>
> It's all about money, Marc. Money attracts and inspires more money and
> that is how it works. If you got money you're much more likely set
> yourself up for one them high positions that come available. People who
> have money are considered to be more successful then others and they are
> the ones that are usually considered by those praying about a new calling
> to be extended. The Lord just can't get his work done without the
> Almighty Buck!  I've heard all the excuses that this isn't so but the
> bottom line is always the dollar. Oh well, the church is still true--aah,
> I think. ;-)
>
> Paul O
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> 
>
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>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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RE: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)

-Marc-
> In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an
> independent -- as I recall the rules vary considerably from

This is not correct.

-Mark-
> What?  You mean to say that you cannot vote in the US unless
> you register your "preference"?  Is that true?

No, it is not true. Many states do require you to register in order to 
vote in the primaries, though.

> And if it is, what's the point of it?

To make sure the Democrats in an area don't band together and elect a 
Republican candidate who can't possibly win the general election, and 
vice versa.

> Since your vote is secret, why register a preference?

In a primary, you may only vote within your registered party if you live 
in a state with such rules. Some states don't have any such rules, which 
I consider to be a mistake (the lack of such rules, I mean).

> As to voting or supporting a party: I'm not sure that I follow
> what Elder Jensen was saying.  What's the point of voting for a
> party if you don't accept their policies?

Obviously, I can't speak for Elder Jensen, but I suspect the general 
authorities are concerned about the lack of opposition to the 
Republicans in Utah. This lack of political balance allows the 
Republicans to bend the rules and control state politics without an 
effective counterbalance. Personally, I'm not sure that's so much worse 
than the perpetual gridlock you so often get with more "balanced" state 
legislatures. In any case, it is vastly preferable to having a bunch of 
Democrats in charge.

Stephen

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RE: [ZION] Tweaking Canada

-Marc-
> I think it's time I correct an impression that I somehow have
> an anti-US bias. [...] I am by nature a bit of a contrarian [...]
> the US is the superpower de jour. A century ago I would have
> been "anti-English" so to speak.

Let's see if I understand what you wrote. Here is what I heard:

"I am not anti-US. Rather, I am anti-Big-Kahoona, and the US is the Big 
Kahoona right now."

Please confirm if I have actual reason to laugh, or if I've somehow 
misunderstood you.

> Complaints from the elephant when the mouse steps on its
> foot are taken by me with a grain of salt ;-)

Complaints about elephant poop by the mice when the elephant does all 
the heavy lifting are likewise taken by me with a grain of salt, as are 
countless and endless complaints about elephants by mice who, truth be 
told, simply don't like elephants, whether they're acting appropriately 
or not.

Stephen

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RE: [ZION] High priests

-Gary-
> The only person among Elders with keys is the Elders Quorum president.

In other words, the only elder with keys is the presiding elder. Well, 
of course. And the only high priest with keys is the presiding high 
priest.

> Yet, his keys are limited.

As are the bishop's or stake president's.

> He cannot perform most of his responsibilities without the
> okay of either the presiding high priest in the ward or the
> presiding high priest in the stake.

Just as the presiding high priest needs the okay of his superiors to 
exercise his keys.

> He cannot authorize the ordination of elders. He cannot
> authorize the calling and setting apart of his counselors.
> Those are responsibilities (and keys) laid to the High
> Priesthood as those who officially preside.

Not so. First, an elder holds the high Priesthood. Second, those keys 
reside only in the appropriate presiding high priests, not in the office 
of high priest.

> To preside over and hold all the keys of presidency, one has
> to be a high priest.

No. Currently, one must be an apostle. A stake president cannot call and 
set apart another stake president.

> There isn't anymore salvation promised to a high priest as to
> an elder (as the MP is all that is required in this life), but
> eventually (presumably if not now, in the next life) one will
> have to be a high priest to preside over a presidency in heaven.

You have already made this assertion. I just want to see some evidence 
of this claim.

> I guess you could say that elder does fulfill the minimum
> requirements for exaltation, at least in this life. But prior
> to us being "kings and priests unto God and his Father" we
> will have to obtain the right of presidency, which pertains
> to high priests in the high priesthood.

Again, I would like more than your assertion that this is the case.

> Otherwise, why have the distinction? why not just have elder
> and leave it at that?

Asking the question is hardly producing evidence. I could just as well 
ask, Why have deacons and teachers? Why have seventies? Or why not? The 
answer is the same: Because that is how the Lord chose to restore his 
Priesthood at this time.

> However, once exalted, one will have to have the right of
> presidency and to hold those keys, which keys belong to the
> high priest's office.

Not so. There are two usages of the term "keys" that apply here, and 
your sentence above doesn't conform to either usage. The first is a key 
of knowledge, of the right to communicate with God by virtue of the 
Preisthood, such as D&C 6:28, the keys of translation. The Aaronic 
Priesthood holds the keys of the ministering of angels; the Melchizedek 
Priesthood holds "the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key 
of the knowledge of God" (D&C 84:19) and "the keys of all the spiritual 
blessings of the church" (D&C 107:18). These keys belong to the 
Priesthood itself, not to any particular office therein, and all those 
who hold and honor the Priesthood they hold have access to these keys.

The second usage of the term "keys" is the right of presidency. These 
keys reside in the presiding authority, be he deacon, teacher, bishop, 
elder, high priest, or apostle. These keys are often associated with an 
office; however, no office of the Priesthood confers such keys on those 
ordained to the office. Rather, the keys are explicitly conferred on 
those called as leaders.

You seem to believe that the office of high priest is both eternal 
(which I see no evidence for) and also the highest office (which is 
demonstrably false). I have never heard taught by any authorized person 
the idea that all men must eventually be ordained to the current office 
of high priest in order to achieve exaltation. I believe this to be a 
false precept. If you can substantiate it with something other than your 
say-so, I'd love to come to understand.

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] High priests

We had a riveting High Council speaker for quite a while (I know, I know, it's an
oxymoron, and that's the point -- that's why he was so outstanding). A refugee
from Pinochet's Chile, he was a widower and doggone it all, went and married a
divorcée in our ward, stealing her into one of the big city wards of our stake
and he's no longer our high councillor.

"Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote:

> At 08:48 10/22/2002 -0400, Patient noJ wrote:
> >Till - every time we went over this handshake I tried to wake you up, but to
> >no avail.  I would have had your home teacher go over it with you, but we
> >can only teach it in the HP group meeting.
>
> They sure were cool dreams, too.  Something to do with all the people of
> the world.  Can't remember for the life of me how it went, though.  That's
> what they get for scheduling our meetings from 11:00 on.  By PH I'm well
> into nap-time.  Actually, my HT would need to show up first anyway!
>
> We had our Snake Conference this last weekend.  Elder Pace told a story of
> Pres Hinckley:  He starting to remind them that he's getting old.  He never
> buys green bananas anymore! He says that one of these days he's going to be
> called home.  They will have his body there in the tabernacle and thousands
> will come to see it.  Then the brethren will come to close the
> casket.  When they do, he's going to sit up, point his finger at them, and
> remind them that every investigator needs three things. .
>
> Till
>
> /
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

Thank you.

Steven Montgomery wrote:

> At 12:03 AM 10/22/2002, Marc wrote:
>
> >What difference does that make to the point I've been trying to make that
> >it was
> >US meddling that paved the way to his [Castro's] rise to power?
>
> We have no argument here. I agree. Although probably for different reasons.
>
> --
> Steven Montgomery
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> "Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
> selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
> politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today."
> --Steven W. Mosher
>
> /
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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[ZION] The new public "mall" at Temple Square

Interesting article from today's SL Trib:

<>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and
deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences
have been properly debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely
another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just
an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a
question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action.
 Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The
Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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RE: [ZION] Voting and parties

2002-10-22 Thread Larry Jackson

Mark Gregson:

You mean to say that you cannot vote in the US unless you register 
your "preference"?  Is that true?  And if it is, what's the point 
of it?  Since your vote is secret, why register a preference?

___

I do not recall living in a state where you had to declare a party 
preference in order to register to vote.

In the state where I now live, if you vote in a primary election, 
you vote only in the primary election of one particular party.  You 
automatically become a member of that party and you cannot vote 
or participate in the other party's election.

After the primary election (and any runoffs, as needed), anyone 
registered may vote in the general election in November (including 
those who did not vote in the primary election).

This primary election law has some unusual consequences.  A judge 
who had served well for 20 years as a Democrat was unopposed.  He 
decided to vote for his friend, a Republican in their primary.  
Because he did this, he was ruled ineligible to be on the Democratic 
ballot, was removed, and another Democrat was appointed to take his 
place.

In the meantime, the Republicans had not put up a Republican 
challenger, but now a different Democrat was going to walk into 
office unopposed.  Because the law does not allow a Republican 
on the ballot this election, since a Republican primary election 
was not held, there will be an independent write-in candidate 
for whom folks may vote in November.  It will be interesting.

The state supreme court has upheld all of this as lawful and 
constitutional under state law.

Larry Jackson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]







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Re: Voting and parties (was Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro)

Mark Gregson wrote:

>
> > In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent -- as I recall 
>the rules vary considerably from
>
> What?  You mean to say that you cannot vote in the US unless you register your 
>"preference"?  Is that true?  And if it is, what's the point of it?  Since your vote 
>is secret, why register a preference?
>

No -- as I'm sure you saw when you read the rest of my post. As to what the point is, 
that's a good question, and I will have to defer to one of our southern experts. I 
remember my first year in US school, in 9th grade in Seattle. It was an election year 
and we held a mock convention in our civics class. I hadn't a clue as to what was 
going on.

>
> As to voting or supporting a party: I'm not sure that I follow what Elder Jensen was 
>saying.  What's the point of voting for a party if you don't accept their policies?

He wasn't talking about voting, he was talking about becoming active in a party so as 
to act as a force for good from within the party.

> The Brethren have always told us to study the issues and then support the candidate 
>that best represents our interests or who supports the issues we believe in.  If a 
>candidate supports things that we are opposed to, then why would we vote for him or 
>her?  Okay, granted, probably every candidate supports some things that we are 
>opposed to, but if a candidate supports many things we strongly oppose, why would we 
>vote for him or her?
>

You shouldn't. But as above, that's not what either the 1P statement or Pres. Jensen's 
remarks were addressing.

>
> I once worked with a lady from Malaysia.  She said that theoretically they have 
>democracy there but "something always happens to the opposition".  She said that 
>speaking against the government would get you into trouble.  She was bemused when I 
>told her that in order to be a patriotic Canadian you _had_ to speak against the 
>government.
>

This is even true in Singapore, unfortunately. Of course, Canada evolved into a 
dominion, not a colony with a history of brutal repression like Malaya (the British 
forerunner to Singapore and Malaysia). Her Majesty's Leader of the Loyal Opposition 
must appear oxymoronic to many people.

>
> =  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst 
thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debatedTo 
think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any 
idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to 
understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. 
 Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian 
Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; 
its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of 
any organization with which the author may be associated.

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[ZION] More on James's Ossuary

More on the alleged find of James's ossuary (James the brother of
Jesus):

<<http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021022/UBONEN/Headlines/headdex/headdexInternational_temp/22/22/29/>>

One note of caution which I'm sure many of you already know: Hershel
Shanks has done a lot of service to the world of biblical archaeology
(n.B. his contribution to loosening up the DSS's from the death-grip the
Ecole Biblique had on them), but he's excellent at self-promotion, too.
But if the Royal Ontario Museum exhibits it, it'll be a real coup for
both the ROM and Shanks.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and
deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences
have been properly debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely
another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just
an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a
question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action.
 Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The
Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
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I think it's time I correct an impression that I somehow have an anti-US
bias. I can see how that would come out, and those of you who know me
from LDS-Poll would see it even more there. The reasons, from *my*
perspective, for this are that I am by nature a bit of a contrarian, or
as I would put it, a "force of balance." I'm the kind of person who
would join the Democrats if I moved to Utah (or the Republicans if I
moved to, well, wherever) What needs balancing, in my opinion?

1. The preponderance of USAmericans on the list (not the list's fault,
it's just the way it is).
2. A strong pedagogical streak -- my favourite church calling is
teaching, and this extends to political affairs. Since until recently I
had the opportunity to trave literally all over the world and see many
things firsthand, and consider myself well-read on international
affairs, I often have strong opinions which I'm not shy about sharing.
3. The fact that the US is the superpower de jour. A century ago I would
have been "anti-English" so to speak. Complaints from the elephant when
the mouse steps on its foot are taken by me with a grain of salt ;-)

Human nature is human nature, and there is nothing inherently different
about USAmericans per se. If Canada had the power you did, we'd do the
same thing you do. In fact, before I get to the actual point of my post,
which is to point out that we're just as capable of abusing others as
you are, let me point to another example of an interesting paradox;
namely, the more powerful a country is, when it follows its own
short-term best interests (which shouldn't surprise anyone that it would
want to do that), it usually ends up harming its own long-term
interests. That example is Saudi Arabia. Now all of a sudden we're
realizing that the Saudis aren't our buddies. But the Saudi royal family
has gone out of its way to cooperate with the US, as I think most of you
know. One of life's delicious ironies is that after fundamentalists
attacked US barracks in the Eastern Province (where Riyadh, Dhahran,
al-Khobar and Dammam are), a new base was built for them in the desert,
far from populated areas. The idea being that this wouldn't grate on the
nerves of locals who resent the presence of "infidels" in the land of
the two shrines. The irony? The base was built by a subsidiary of SGB --
Saudi Group Binladen, the construction firm founded by Osama bin Laden's
father, Mohammed. There's no link between SGB and Osama bin Laden per se
anymore, I just thought it was an interesting irony.

Okay, finally to the link about Canadian mining companies being bad boys
with big toys:
<<http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021022/UCONGX/International/international/international_temp/3/3/29/>>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and
deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences
have been properly debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely
another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just
an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a
question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action.
Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The
Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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[ZION] Iraqi women

This isn't meant to justify the current regime of Iraq in any way, but
is just by way of showing how complex a place the region we usually lump
together as the "Middle East" is. Saddam Hussein may hate the US, but
he's no Islamic fundamentalist (again, that doesn't mean he hasn't
cooperated with them for his own purposes). Women have a more open role
in Iraq than in many other countries in the region:

<<http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021022/UWOMEN/International/international/international_temp/1/1/29/>>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and
deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences
have been properly debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely
another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just
an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a
question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action.
 Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The
Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro

2002-10-22 Thread Scott McGee

On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 01:45:06 -0600, "Marc A. Schindler"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> Being a "member" of a party in our Westminster system means something
> different than it does in the U.S. In the U.S. every voter registers for
> a party (or as an independent -- as I recall the rules vary considerably
> from state to state, as to how the states elect their delegates to the
> party national conventions). 

Hmm, I think you are at least partly mistaken there. I have lived in and
been a registered voter in three different states (Utah, Iowa, and
Georgia) and have never joined any political party. I beleive I did have
to register as a Republican one time in Iowa in order to vote in the
Republican Primary election, but that is the only time I ever recall
having to state any preference. I am quite sure that when I registered
here in Georgia, I did _not_ state any preferred party. My voter
registration card certainly contains no indication of party either (I
just looked!).

What you said may well be true in general, and sounds a bit like the
situation in Iowa, but is not true in all cases.

Scott
--  
Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as
down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own?
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee)
 Web:   http://scott.themcgees.org/


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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

>Trouble is, where is the General Authority 
>who disagrees with ETB regarding this particular issue, that of Fidel 
>Castro being a communist? I haven't been able to find one. Perhaps there
is 
>a general consensus then?


O come on Steven, get real. We don't even know which of the Presidential
candidates the GA's voted for let alone which parties they think the
world leaders are in.

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] First Presidency statement on war

I agree. The term "forgive" can be ambiguous; in the moral sense we are to
forgive everyone, but the term is often used in a secular sense of not bringing
them to justice, as in dismissing their crime. And I wanted to make it clear that
that wasn't what I believed.

Scott McGee wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 00:54:26 -0600, "Marc A. Schindler"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> > No one has asked anybody to forgive terrorists. They deserve to be
> > brought to justice
>
> Perhaps I am wrong, but my understanding is that we _DO_ have to forgive
> the terrorists. That doesn't, however, mean that they should not still be
> brought to justice and punished to the full extent of the law for their
> acts.
>
> Scott
> --
> Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as
> down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own?
>  Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee)
>  Web:   http://scott.themcgees.org/
>
> --
> http://fastmail.fm - The holy hand grenade of email services
>
> /
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>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Hindsight

Sounds reasonable to me.

Wouldn't it be a gas to learn that President Hinkley did in fact vote for
Bush? I wonder what JWR would say then? Would he then take back his
Gadianton
accusations?

Paul O


On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 19:15:49 -0600 "Marc A. Schindler"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I look at it this way. Think of a time when maybe someone you didn't 
> like got
> called to be the bishop or SP or even a GA. You really thought this 
> guy was in
> over his head, or was a jerk. Whatever. So, what do you do?  I raise 
> my hand to
> sustain the man (or woman). This is not a voting process. 
> Sustaining, to me,
> means to support the person the best I can. It doesn't magically 
> turn them into a
> wonderful, perfect person. We don't believe in infallibility (in 
> fact, there's a
> common joke to the effect that Catholics believe in infallibility 
> but don't
> practise it, and Mormons don't believe in infallibility but practise 
> it). But we
> owe it to God to support our leaders.
> 
> Now the segué to politics, because it works on somewhat different 
> principles, but
> we do believe in sustaining and honoring secular leaders, too. That 
> means I have
> the freedom to vote for A, B, or C, and if I vote for B and A gets 
> in, then I
> work to support A. Even if I'm an opposition member or a member of a 
> different
> party, you are still supporting the government because you're active 
> and involved
> in the political process, as we've been advised to do. So you can 
> have your cake
> and eat it, too, so to speak.
> 
> Paul Osborne wrote:
> 
> > >I'm sure they do, but that wasn't the question I was raising. I 
> was
> > raising not
> > >the question of knowledge, but of trust. Rule #1: follow the 
> money.  How
> > do you
> > >know that Bush is listening to US intelligence (which, btw, has a 
> less
> > than
> > >sterling record).
> >
> > I don't know if Bush is listening to US Intelligence in the best 
> light.
> > But, he is the only President we have and he is the Commander in 
> Chief. I
> > have to work on rebuilding some confidence in the government or 
> I'll just
> > be negative about everything. That's not to healthy of a thing.


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Re: [ZION] Cult of personality

>A person can be a Democrat and a good Mormon, or he can be a Mormon and
a 
>good Democrat; but he cannot be both a good Democrat and a good Mormon.
-->JWR


I can see that John has slammed the Democrat Mormons with his little
jingle. So, if a Democrat can be a good Mormon but a good Democrat cannot
be a good Mormon this means that a only a bad Democrat can be a good
Mormon. Woe unto the good Democrats for they must turn from their ways
and repent! 

Right John? 

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Cult of personality

I owe you a bit of an apology, I think. I went to the link this time -- I have to
admit I was not aware there was a theory that the plane didn't actually crash. I
merely assumed you were repeating a story I've heard often, that the plane was
deliberately targeted because McDonald was on board (which to me sounded like
saying that the Canadians were targeted by the Illinois Air National Guard
because one of them was LDS).

But now that there's an LDS presence there (including, as it happens, a branch
right in Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk
[http://www.gatheringofisrael.com/atlas/europe/russia/RUS_vladivostok.gif],
perhaps we could ask the branch president to look into it :-)

FWIW, just to repeat the "straight line" about this, or conventional story, or
whatever you want to call it, the plane crashed in very deep waters of the
Pacific (a large gulf, actually, iirc, called the Sea of Okhotsk, which the US
considers to be high seas, but which the Soviet Union then and Russia now
considers to be national waters, and SAR was called out the same reason they were
when Canadian SAR was called out for the Swissair flight that crashed off Peggy's
Cove, NS: to recover any human remains that floated to the surface. This is SOP,
and the so-called "rescue transcript" on the website needs to be read with this
in mind (I happen to have good 1st hand evidence of this: my cousin's husband is
a Canadian air command captain and was, until recently, a SARTech based in
Gander, NL -- he's now in Moose Jaw SK training to fly Hercs. Among other reasons
for the change was a growing distaste for recovery operations)

AFAI am concerned, the site's purpose is to sell a book. But when I get to the
other side I'll look for any KAL 007 vets. Who knows.

Steven Montgomery wrote:

> At 12:01 AM 10/22/2002, Marc wrote:
>
> >Was he LDS? (just curious; I know the incident you're talking about. I
> >also know
> >there's absolutely no proof that he was "taken out" -- that's an old canard,
> >although I'm not surprised it's still quacking in certain circles).
>
> To my knowledge Larry P. McDonald was not LDS. I actually agree with you
> that there is no proof that the Soviets targeted McDonald specifically but
> there is quite a bit of evidence that the plane did not crash and kill
> everyone.
>
> http://www.rescue007.org/
>
> Btw, this particular site is run by Bert Schlossberg, an Israeli who has no
> connection with the John Birch Society.
>
> --
> Steven Montgomery
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> "Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
> selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
> politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today."
> --Steven W. Mosher
>
> /
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] High priests

At 12:08 10/22/2002 -0600, M Marc wrote:



My spouse is a Vulcan, and she's giving me the death grip.



Till was Vulcanized once.  To keep his brains from leaking 
out.  Unfortunately, it was too little, too late


Till who's too "tired" to go "round and round" on this, so just "wheel" me 
on out, but don't "brake" my "belt" 'cause my belly "dunlop" over it.  Bet 
you think I heard that one on the "radial", but it just keep "spinning" off 
of Till's "rotor"-tiller "flat" out.   It sure was a "good year".  That's 
what you get for hanging out with people of my low "caliper"  Can you stop 
beating that "drum" while I get my "bearings"   I'll just go "ply" myself 
elswhere, Oh, my head, stop  this "biased" "tread" 
...   Hs
s
s
s
s
s
s
s
s
s
s

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Re: [ZION] High priests have money

On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:54:03 -0600 "Marc A. Schindler"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that 
> sincerely),
> so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are 
> unlikely, for one
> reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably 
> righteous,
> temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to hold 
> a position
> of line authority. Why are people like that ordained to High 
> Priests.
> 
> I know there's an implicit assumption here, so I'll make it 
> explicit: I'm
> assuming that there are people in this set (I think I'm one of 
> them). But I could
> be wrong -- it's an assumption.

$$$ High Callings $$$

It's all about money, Marc. Money attracts and inspires more money and
that is how it works. If you got money you're much more likely set
yourself up for one them high positions that come available. People who
have money are considered to be more successful then others and they are
the ones that are usually considered by those praying about a new calling
to be extended. The Lord just can't get his work done without the
Almighty Buck!  I've heard all the excuses that this isn't so but the
bottom line is always the dollar. Oh well, the church is still true--aah,
I think. ;-)

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [ZION] High priests

And you thought when we leaned over in Sacrament meeting and our spouses put
their arms on the back of our necks it was meant as a gesture of affection, too,
probably. Ah, the naïveté :-)

"Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote:

> At 07:59 10/21/2002 -0500, Gary wrote:
>
> >And yes, we have a secret handshake that you elders know nothing
> >about.
>
> What???  I thought that was just the special grip that we use to keep
> each other from falling out of chairs when we fell asleep.
>
> Till
>

My spouse is a Vulcan, and she's giving me the death grip.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was
a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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RE: [ZION] Cuba and Castro

-Clifford-
> Well well well, what a discussion about whether Castro was a
> communist as before the revolution or even earlier.  One would
> think this some how negates his concerns about the poverty of
> his people and the domination of his country by US corporations

Yes, I suppose one might think that, if one had not been paying 
attention to the thread of discussion.

> If being a Democrat in the US is a threat to ones worthiness,
> where does that put me, a member of the Australian Labor Party?

If your membership in the Australian Labor Party puts you in support of 
abortion on demand and of expanding the influence of the homosexual 
lobby, then I would say that puts you in a very precarious position 
indeed.

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] High priests

At 08:48 10/22/2002 -0400, Patient noJ wrote:

Till - every time we went over this handshake I tried to wake you up, but to
no avail.  I would have had your home teacher go over it with you, but we
can only teach it in the HP group meeting.



They sure were cool dreams, too.  Something to do with all the people of 
the world.  Can't remember for the life of me how it went, though.  That's 
what they get for scheduling our meetings from 11:00 on.  By PH I'm well 
into nap-time.  Actually, my HT would need to show up first anyway!

We had our Snake Conference this last weekend.  Elder Pace told a story of 
Pres Hinckley:  He starting to remind them that he's getting old.  He never 
buys green bananas anymore! He says that one of these days he's going to be 
called home.  They will have his body there in the tabernacle and thousands 
will come to see it.  Then the brethren will come to close the 
casket.  When they do, he's going to sit up, point his finger at them, and 
remind them that every investigator needs three things. .

Till

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Re: [ZION] First Presidency statement on war

2002-10-22 Thread Scott McGee

On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 00:54:26 -0600, "Marc A. Schindler"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> No one has asked anybody to forgive terrorists. They deserve to be
> brought to justice

Perhaps I am wrong, but my understanding is that we _DO_ have to forgive
the terrorists. That doesn't, however, mean that they should not still be
brought to justice and punished to the full extent of the law for their
acts.

Scott
--  
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down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own?
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Re: [ZION] Cult of personality

At 12:01 AM 10/22/2002, Marc wrote:


Was he LDS? (just curious; I know the incident you're talking about. I 
also know
there's absolutely no proof that he was "taken out" -- that's an old canard,
although I'm not surprised it's still quacking in certain circles).

To my knowledge Larry P. McDonald was not LDS. I actually agree with you 
that there is no proof that the Soviets targeted McDonald specifically but 
there is quite a bit of evidence that the plane did not crash and kill 
everyone.

http://www.rescue007.org/

Btw, this particular site is run by Bert Schlossberg, an Israeli who has no 
connection with the John Birch Society.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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Re: [ZION] High priests

2002-10-22 Thread Jon Spencer

Till - every time we went over this handshake I tried to wake you up, but to
no avail.  I would have had your home teacher go over it with you, but we
can only teach it in the HP group meeting.

Noj

Elmer L. Fairbank wrote:
> At 07:59 10/21/2002 -0500, Gary wrote:
>
> >And yes, we have a secret handshake that you elders know nothing
> >about.
>
>
>
> What???  I thought that was just the special grip that we use to keep
> each other from falling out of chairs when we fell asleep.
>
> Till

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Voting and parties (was Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro)

2002-10-22 Thread Mark Gregson


> In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent -- as I recall 
>the rules vary considerably from

What?  You mean to say that you cannot vote in the US unless you register your 
"preference"?  Is that true?  And if it is, what's the point of it?  Since your vote 
is secret, why register a preference?

As to voting or supporting a party: I'm not sure that I follow what Elder Jensen was 
saying.  What's the point of voting for a party if you don't accept their policies?  
The Brethren have always told us to study the issues and then support the candidate 
that best represents our interests or who supports the issues we believe in.  If a 
candidate supports things that we are opposed to, then why would we vote for him or 
her?  Okay, granted, probably every candidate supports some things that we are opposed 
to, but if a candidate supports many things we strongly oppose, why would we vote for 
him or her?

I once worked with a lady from Malaysia.  She said that theoretically they have 
democracy there but "something always happens to the opposition".  She said that 
speaking against the government would get you into trouble.  She was bemused when I 
told her that in order to be a patriotic Canadian you _had_ to speak against the 
government.

=  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =

   
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Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey

At 12:03 AM 10/22/2002, Marc wrote:


What difference does that make to the point I've been trying to make that 
it was
US meddling that paved the way to his [Castro's] rise to power?

We have no argument here. I agree. Although probably for different reasons.



--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of
selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American
politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." 
--Steven W. Mosher 

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RE: [ZION] High priests

2002-10-22 Thread Larry Jackson

Till writes:

What???  I thought that was just the special 
grip that we use to keep each other from falling 
out of chairs when we fell asleep.

___

Oh, Till.  It serves a far more important purpose than that.

As you shake right hands, place two fingers of the 
left hand just inside the wrist to check for a pulse.

Larry Jackson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]







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Re: [ZION] High priests

At 07:59 10/21/2002 -0500, Gary wrote:


And yes, we have a secret handshake that you elders know nothing
about.




What???  I thought that was just the special grip that we use to keep 
each other from falling out of chairs when we fell asleep.

Till

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[ZION] Greetings from Tom Valetta

Presidente Valetta says hello to all his old friends on Zion.


Till

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RE: [ZION] Notice from Listowner

2002-10-22 Thread chet-el

MStar, the service I use, hasn't been bouncing anything as far as we can 
tell.  It's even allowed some messages which one would think MStar's 
filter would stop.  (So-called "adult" messages.  Why is it that 
"mature" and "adult" now mean anything but mature or adult?)

But I FINALLY, FINALLY, FINALLY can read Zion messages again!  It's only 
on the Topica (motto:  We'll cancel your service when we darned well 
feel like it.) website, but it's better than nothing.

I've had some notes sitting around, after conference, that I wanted to 
share (i.e. - get your thoughts on) for some weeks, and have been 
unable.  I'll see if the website permits me to do that.

*jeep!
  --Chet
John W. Redelfs wrote:
> Re: Bouncing messages
> 
> Dear Listmember,
> 
> A number of you have been having trouble receiving list mail from time 
> to 
> time.  Still others have been automatically removed from the list.  For 
> this I apologize.  The problem in most cases is bouncing mail.

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RE: [ZION] What's the point of high priests?

-John-
> Stephen, it would be helpful if you would also contribute to the
> list when you are happy with us.  We know that you will straighten
> us out if we make a mistake, but that shouldn't be our whole
> relationship, do you think?

Of course not. Forgive me. I had assume a discussion list was for 
discussing things, which I was attempting to do. I am not unhappy with 
you, with Gary, or with anyone else. I do try to avoid empty "me-too" 
posts, but I did not realize that I always played the antagonist.

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] Cult of personality

Well, Pres. Jensen begs to differ. As in his interview, he points to the fact that
both loaves need leaven (my words, not his, but that's my take on what he says).

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> At 12:01 AM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:
> >Actually I had posted this because some people had voiced doubts about whether
> >you could be a good member and a Democrat. This idea is often attributed to a
> >well-known GA.
>
> A person can be a Democrat and a good Mormon, or he can be a Mormon and a
> good Democrat; but he cannot be both a good Democrat and a good Mormon. --JWR
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the
worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly
debatedTo think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a
coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly
character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was
totally unfitted for action.  Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by
Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor
those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Cult of personality

At 12:01 AM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:

Actually I had posted this because some people had voiced doubts about whether
you could be a good member and a Democrat. This idea is often attributed to a
well-known GA.


A person can be a Democrat and a good Mormon, or he can be a Mormon and a 
good Democrat; but he cannot be both a good Democrat and a good Mormon. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro