2008/5/28 Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Sounds interesting. Can you give us a little more detail (or link). What
> kind of robot, where? Doing what? Watching what movie? And how does it dream
> - optimise/correct actions?
Link:
http://code.google.com/p/sentience/
A picture of the robot:
h
Bob: I'm doing stuff with robotics which is mostly about processing
sequences of images (I call the offline playbacks used for parameter
optimisation "dream sequences"), although probably what I'm doing
doesn't qualify as AGI in a strict sense - it's more reminiscent of
the Grand/Urban Challenge
2008/5/28 Mike Tintner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> No one's yet actually trying to develop "movie AI/AGI" - an intelligence
> that can live in and/or respond to a continuous movie[s] of the world, are
> they? Ben's system, from the v. little I saw, gestures at this, but falls
> short.
I'm doing stuff
Steve/Stephen: I am planning to archive all conversations .This is pretty
simple with text, but when things move into real-time moving images from which
to understand the world, this takes a little more storage.
No one's yet actually trying to develop "movie AI/AGI" - an intelligence that
c
ue you raise.
>
No, it makes things WORSE by factionalizing rather than drilling down to the
underlying false assumptions. This is how wars are needlessly made.
Again, I am amazed by my apparent TOTAL failure to communicate. Can someone
here please debug this?
Steve Richfield
With all this lovely chit-chat about .NET, I have been wondering if anyone
was entertaining the possibility of doing a port of NARS from Java to C#.
Not that I have seriously considered working myself on it, just that before
someone would undertake such an effort it would be beneficial to share
goa
much.
But then again, you're head of the project so I guess that your opinion wins.
If you're interested, I certainly am.
- Original Message -
From: David Hart
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 6:27 PM
Subject: **SPAM** Re: [agi] More Info Pl
Derek, you make an excellent point about the OpenCog project appearing too
open-ended and unfocused. Ben is writing documentation for a specific
cognitive architecture, OpenCog Prime, that is intended to address these
concerns. The first iteration of OpenCog Prime is targeted for July and will
be a
//texai.org
3008 Oak Crest Ave.
Austin, Texas, USA 78704
512.791.7860
- Original Message
From: Steve Richfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 12:23:37 PM
Subject: Merging threads was Re: Code generation was Re: [agi] More Info Please
Steve,
creaming about and
I'm afraid that the way this effort is being run will validate his concerns.
I wonder if we should start a pool on the documentation arrival date . . .
. :-)
- Original Message -
From: Derek Zahn
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 27,
gt;
> To: agi@v2.listbox.com
> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 2:28:32 PM
> Subject: Code generation was Re: [agi] More Info Please
>
> 2008/5/26 Stephen Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Regarding the best language for AGI development, most here know that I'm
> > using J
No Mark. It is partly the result of a deliberate MS policy to make
their market share look bigger than it actually is.
Yes, of course, it's all a Microsoft plot.
Always remember,
the main thing that MS is good at is marketing.
And everyone who uses Microsoft is too stupid to see how inferior
On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Mark Waser wrote:
>> Their overall figure of 73% for Apache and 19% for Microsoft IIS
>> sounds reasonable to me.
>
> Yes, ladies and gentlemen, it's science in action . . . . pick the method
> that produces the statistics that you want to hear. If surveying all th
On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Mark Waser wrote:
> No. You are not correct. Read their methodology
> (http://www.securityspace.com/s_survey/faq.html?mondir=/200804&domdir=&domain=)
> which I have copied and pasted below
>
We visit what we consider well-known sites. In our case, we define a
day, May 27, 2008 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: [agi] More Info Please
On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 2:20 PM, Mark Waser wrote:
Geez. What the heck is wrong with you people and your seriously bogus
stats?
Try a real recognized neutral tracking service like Netcraft
(http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web
On May 27, 2008, at 7:00 AM, BillK wrote:
As I understand it, Netcraft's results are based on web sites, or more
precisely, hostnames, rather than actual web servers. This introduces
a bias because some servers run a large number of low-volume (or zero
volume) web sites.
Of course, many site
Mark Waser:
> Does anybody have any interest in and/or willingness to program in a >
> different environment?
I haven't decided to what extent I'll participate in OpenCog myself yet. For
me, it depends more on whether the capabilities of the system seem worth
exploring, which in turn depends as
prayer "Oooohhmmm @[EMAIL PROTECTED]@@#$*%&&*
Microsoft"
From: Mark Waser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 7:20 AM
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Subject: Re: [agi] More Info Please
> However, I'll quote just one simple stat:
> About 90% of
On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 2:20 PM, Mark Waser wrote:
> Geez. What the heck is wrong with you people and your seriously bogus
> stats?
>
> Try a real recognized neutral tracking service like Netcraft
> (http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html)
>
>
>
> March 2008 Percent April 2008 P
Hi Stephen,
>
> I observe that you are building a sandbox. Will it be open source?
>
Yep, eventually it will be open source. Although sandbox gives the
wrong impression. I want most of the code for the computer system (AI
or otherwise) to be running inside it so it can self manage it in the
lon
Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 5:39:40 PM
Subject: Re: Code generation was Re: [agi] More Info Please
On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 10:19 PM, Stephen Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is a good use case for a resource-control agent th
Just to say: well done! Unfortunately you can never win with him. But it was
a total demolition IMO.and I imagine to everyone else. ;)
---
agi
Archives: http://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now
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On May 26, 2008, at 6:46 PM, Mark Waser wrote:
I have ~100% market share. Not sure how it is "two-to-one" or
"dwindling", though I suppose it has nowhere to go but down.
Huh? First *you* give me numbers of less then two to one and then
you claim ~100%. How much did you drink at that barb
My only real quibble was with the notion that choosing .NET would not
have a material impact on developer participation.
So after all your bluster and BS, you're down to fighting a strawman because
you can't defend anything else that you've claimed?
Where did I claim that .Net would not hav
Replying to myself,
I'll let Mark have the last word since, after all, it is *his* project
and not mine. :-) My only real quibble was with the notion that
choosing .NET would not have a material impact on developer
participation.
I have to go man a barbecue and get some work done now.
Ch
Which "silly" operating system assertions?
Your own words:
but if you actually look at some rather important tech centers like
Silicon Valley, there is not a Windows server in sight. The dominance of
Unix-based systems there is so complete that it is not even a contest any
more. You are ap
On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 10:19 PM, Stephen Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is a good use case for a resource-control agent that watches over
> memory utilization in its JVM. Likewise it points out the need for a higher
> level process to ask each to-be-launched skill-performance what its res
On May 26, 2008, at 3:25 PM, Mark Waser wrote:
Do you truly believe that search engine hits is proportional to the
use of a language or is it just that the valid methods didn't you
give the results that you wanted?
There is no really authoritative source, that was just one method of
many
On May 26, 2008, at 1:16 PM, Jim Bromer wrote:
Would you please direct me to open source project web sites that may
be of interest to AI projecteers, and a C++ compiler to use with
them. I never found any comments on a good compiler to use on a
Windows XP system (other than the microsoft c
: William Pearson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 2:28:32 PM
Subject: Code generation was Re: [agi] More Info Please
2008/5/26 Stephen Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Regarding the best language for AGI development, most here know that I'm
> us
On May 26, 2008, at 12:19 PM, Mark Waser wrote:
I live in Northern Virginia, near Washington, DC.
That pretty much explains it then, as DC is another Windows stronghold
in my experience. Some areas, like Seattle and Boston, seem to be
mixed markets.
Where do you get your statistics?
J. Andrew Rogers said:
For open source projects, ideal environments play
second fiddle to broad language support. Painless portability is the
reason C is often selected over C++ for open source projects --
universality is that important.
J. Andrew Rogers
TECTED]>
To:
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 5:14 PM
Subject: **SPAM** Re: [agi] More Info Please
On May 26, 2008, at 12:19 PM, Mark Waser wrote:
I live in Northern Virginia, near Washington, DC.
That pretty much explains it then, as DC is another Windows stronghold in
my experience. S
On May 26, 2008, at 11:53 AM, Bob Mottram wrote:
On Linux the performance of 3D distributed particle SLAM (a CPU
intensive task) running on the Mono .NET (version 2) runtime is
marginally faster than the same code running on Windows using the MS
runtime, but only by a few milliseconds. Performa
2008/5/26 Stephen Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Regarding the best language for AGI development, most here know that I'm
> using Java in Texai. For skill acquisition, my strategy is to have Texai
> acquire a skill by composing a Java program to perform the learned skill.
How will it memory manage b
On May 26, 2008, at 8:41 AM, Mark Waser wrote:
C# may have advantages over Java, but
it doesn't mean that these advantages are particularly relevant for a
particular project.
Then make project-specific assertions. The fact that functional
programming is an integral part of C# is huge for AG
Where do you live, if you do not mind me asking? The preference for
server environments is very much a local phenomenon. Using California as
an example, in Los Angeles there is a strong preference for Windows
systems, but in Silicon Valley you will find that Unix is pervasive.
I live in North
On May 26, 2008, at 4:42 AM, Mark Waser wrote:
There has been a large upswing in the number of MacOS laptops. At
the same time, there has been an equally large reversal of the
correlation with Unix-based back-ends. Macs are being picked up
because of their engineering, power-up times, eas
2008/5/26 J. Andrew Rogers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Europe specifically excludes .NET as a development target for similar
> pragmatic reasons. And developing .NET is going to suck on a non-Windows
> workstation, eliminating one of the major advantages you tout. To be honest,
> I do not know of anyone
blog
http://texai.org
3008 Oak Crest Ave.
Austin, Texas, USA 78704
512.791.7860
- Original Message
From: Vladimir Nesov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 7:48:29 AM
Subject: Re: [agi] More Info Please
On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Mar
On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 6:26 PM, Stephen Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Regarding the best language for AGI development, most here know that I'm
> using Java in Texai. For skill acquisition, my strategy is to have Texai
> acquire a skill by composing a Java program to perform the learned skill.
7;s butt *and* it's still vastly inferior to what is available
> under Windows at that time.
>
> - Original Message - From: "Vladimir Nesov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 8:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [agi] More Info Please
>
>
>
mark,
> What I'd rather do instead is see if we can get a .NET parallel track
> started over the next few months, see if we can get everything ported, and
> see the relative productivity between the two paths. That would provide a
> provably true answer to the debate.
Well, it's an open-source p
ts were there? How many
times have you ported a large project from one environment/language to
another (or even one major software rev to another)?
- Original Message -
From: "Vladimir Nesov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 11:15 AM
Subject:
On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 8:33 PM, J. Andrew Rogers
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Replying to myself,
>
> I'll let Mark have the last word since, after all, it is *his* project and
> not mine. :-)
I assume that last sentence was sarcastic ;-)
Of course, while Mark is a valued participant in OpenCog,
o:
Cc: "Linas Vepstas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [agi] More Info Please
Mark,
For OpenCog we had to make a definite choice and we made one. Sorry
you don't agree w/ it.
I agree that you had to make a choice and made the one that see
ailable
under Windows at that time.
- Original Message -
From: "Vladimir Nesov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [agi] More Info Please
On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
And what is the value
On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> And what is the value proposition of Java over any other language? It has
> no unique features. It's development is lagging. It's developers are
> defecting (again, look at the statistics). It's fragmenting just like Uni
I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by sane languages . . . .
- Original Message -
From: "Lukasz Stafiniak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: [agi] More Info Please
On Mon, May 26, 200
On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 1:26 PM, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> What I'd rather do instead is see if we can get a .NET parallel track
> started over the next few months, see if we can get everything ported, and
> see the relative productivity between the two paths. That would provide a
On May 26, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Mark Waser wrote:
That you have less than a two-to-one market share and it's dwindling?
I have ~100% market share. Not sure how it is "two-to-one" or
"dwindling", though I suppose it has nowhere to go but down.
That technically .Net has blown past you and t
Some not-quite-random observations that hopefully injects some
moderation:
- There are a number of good arguments for using C over C++, not the
least of which is that it is dead simple to implement very efficient C
bindings into much friendlier languages that hide the fact that it is
stil
Mark. Intuition is a form of vague perception, a kind of logic in the
making. Like a grain of sand with pearl potential.
AGI has a lot of power to cure the "society of scarcity" situation.
>
> So it's up to us to roll out the beneficial apps before others roll
> out the nasty ones.
>
> This is not
Mark,
>>> For OpenCog we had to make a definite choice and we made one. Sorry
>>> you don't agree w/ it.
>
> I agree that you had to make a choice and made the one that seemed right to
> various reason. The above comment is rude and snarky however --
> particularly since it seems to come *becau
Continuing on from a mistaken send . . .
I'm aware .Net has evolved a lot in recent years, but so has the C++
world, especially the Boost libraries which are extremely powerful.
Boost is not particularly powerful. Using Boost involves a *lot* of work
because the interfaces are not particular
> Ben and Peter. Do you plan to sell your systems to weapons firms if they
> show an interest?
It is unlikely that I would ever sell an AI system to be used to
control a weapon
However, it's easy enough to imagine cases where this would be the best thing
to do, e.g. when an obviously evil power
will
*rapidly*
provide a return on investment sufficient to offset the porting cost.
So, please, back up your claim. Find some experts who are up-to-date to
explain why Linux/C++ is better.
- Original Message -
From: "Ben Goertzel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Sent: Sunday,
nal Message -
From: Nathan Cravens
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 6:43 PM
Subject: **SPAM** Re: [agi] More Info Please
Intuition is not science. Intuition is just hardened opinion.
Mark, without intuition the development of science would grind to a h
that you have a valid
> one. And I'm reasonably sure that the advantages of porting will *rapidly*
> provide a return on investment sufficient to offset the porting cost.
>
> So, please, back up your claim. Find some experts who are up-to-date to
> explain why Linux/C++ is bette
ably sure that the advantages of porting will *rapidly*
> provide a return on investment sufficient to offset the porting cost.
>
> So, please, back up your claim. Find some experts who are up-to-date to
> explain why Linux/C++ is better.
>
>
>
> - Original Message
please, back up your claim. Find some experts who are up-to-date to
explain why Linux/C++ is better.
- Original Message -
From: "Ben Goertzel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: [agi] More Info Please
>> One of the thing
On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 10:26 PM, Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Certainly there are plenty of folks with equal software engineering experience
> to you, advocating the Linux/C++ route (taken in the current OpenCog version)
> rather than the .Net/C# route that I believe you advocate...
> One of the things that I've been tempted to argue for a while is an entirely
> alternate underlying software architecture for OpenCog -- people can then
> develop in the architecture that is most convenient and then we could have
> people cross-port between the two. I strongly contend that the c
Please, if you're going to argue something --
please take the time to argue it and don't pretend that you can't
magically
solve it all with your "guesses" (I mean, intuition).
time for mailing list posts is scarce for me these days, so sometimes I
post
a conclusion w/out the supporting argume
> Please, if you're going to argue something --
> please take the time to argue it and don't pretend that you can't magically
> solve it all with your "guesses" (I mean, intuition).
time for mailing list posts is scarce for me these days, so sometimes I post
a conclusion w/out the supporting argum
>> I disagree strenuously. If our arguments will apply to *all* intelligences
>> (/intelligent architectures) -- like Omohundro attempts to do -- instead of
>> just certain AGI subsets, then I believe that our lack of knowledge about
>> particular subsets is irrelevant.
> yes, but I don't think t
On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> My own view is that our state of knowledge about AGI is far too weak
>> for us to make detailed
>> plans about how to **ensure** AGI safety, at this point
>
> I disagree strenuously. If our arguments will apply to *all* int
2008/5/25 Nathan Cravens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> yet AGI has
> potentially dramatic concrete consequences in one direction or another.
> Money will only be made from this in the short run, and if not, for those
> with a capacity to muster life, misery will prevail, unless you are the last
> one or o
My own view is that our state of knowledge about AGI is far too weak
for us to make detailed
plans about how to **ensure** AGI safety, at this point
What we can do is conduct experiments designed to gather data about
AGI goal systems and
AGI dynamics, which can lead us to more robust AGI theories,
Hi Peter, Ben, and Panu
What is your approach on ensuring AGI safety/Friendliness on this project?
I would immediately gather reason to assert that if there's money in AGI,
and money is made from such a project, it is bound to be one of a friendly
nature. That assertion of course makes for a sad
What is your approach on ensuring AGI safety/Friendliness on this project?
---
agi
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Peter Voss wrote:
Thanks, Ben.
The technical details of our design and business plan details are indeed
confidential. All I can really say publicly is that we are confident that we
have pretty direct path to high-level AGI from where we are, and that we
have an extremely viable business plan to
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 2:56 PM
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Subject: Re: [agi] More Info Please
Peter has some technical info on his overall (adaptive neural net) based
approach to AI, on his company website, which is based on a paper he wrote
in the AGI volume Cassio and I edited for Springer (wri
Peter has some technical info on his overall (adaptive neural net)
based approach to AI, on his company website, which is based on a
paper he wrote in the AGI volume Cassio and I edited for Springer
(written 2002, published 2006).
However, he has kept his specific commercial product direction tigh
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