That's the best roadmap I've ever seen.
On May 14, 2008, at 6:19 PM, Erik Buck wrote:
The obstacles, misconceptions, and prerequisite concepts that need
to be mastered when learning Cocoa vary dramatically based on the
past experience of the learner. I am a very experienced Cocoa
to learn and re-learn Cocoa. Based on that I'm now
gainfully employed writing an iPhone application.
On May 15, 2008, at 6:06 PM, Jens Alfke wrote:
On 15 May '08, at 5:03 PM, mmalc crawford wrote:
My guidance for Cocoa's alleged steep learning curve is, Why are
you making it steep
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Ash
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 1:56 AM
To: Cocoa Developers
Subject: Re: Guidance for Cocoa's steep learning curve
On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 10:57 PM, john darnell
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote
On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 10:57 PM, john darnell
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
And, what I hear from this august crowd is a consensus that the
references are difficult to understand, but necessarily so--that they
ought to be that way.
That's not really it. It's not that they should be difficult to
Imagine picking up a dictionary for a foreign language you don't
speak
That is a very good analogy. For my situation I would take it even a
step further
analogy
Let's say I am fluent in Italian and Spanish already. I've even had
one year of French in school.
I am bored to death
I agree with this, and I think a lot of people end up getting stuck at
this intermediate stage. Apple has a great dictionary and they have
decent My name is Bob material. They have little quality material in
the middle. This is where the books fill in. Personally speaking I
spent a lot of time at
(like a
painter), you can think in the GUIS and all these stuff
I think this is a crucial point.
My guidance for Cocoa's alleged steep learning curve is, Why are
you making it steep?
It reminds me of the clichéd joke: Doctor, it hurts when I do
this. Well, don't do
: Guidance for Cocoa's steep learning curve
On 15 May '08, at 6:33 PM, Joseph Ayers wrote:
What is absolutely
baffling is dealing with NSTableView. The documentation absolutely
sucks. How does one map table rows and columns
on NSMutableArrays and NSMutableDictionaries. How does one map
I have found this to be true on most every product's documentation; not
just X Code. It is easily understood after five years of experience.
The beginner struggles with the concepts, the locutions, the native
phrases that the experienced programmer understands.
I feel the need to chime in
On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 9:30 PM, john darnell
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't mean to be mean, but I agree with Joseph; most Apple
documentation is really, really poor.
*No, that's not correct.* The documentation is extensive, and
comprehensive, but unless you already know what you are
Sigh. Your attitude reminds me of a conversation I once had with a
fellow programmer. When I was encouraging her to add more documentation
to the code, she replied, jokingly, If it was hard for me to write,
then it should be hard for them to read.
The sad thing is that you are not joking...
Sigh. Your attitude reminds me of a conversation I once had with a
fellow programmer. When I was encouraging her to add more documentation
to the code, she replied, jokingly, If it was hard for me to write,
then it should be hard for them to read.
The sad thing is that you are not
On May 16, 2008, at 9:30 AM, john darnell wrote:
I don't mean to be mean, but I agree with Joseph; most Apple
documentation is really, really poor.
*No, that's not correct.* The documentation is extensive, and
comprehensive, but unless you already know what you are reading about,
it might as
On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 10:19 PM, john darnell
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Sigh. Your attitude reminds me of a conversation I once had with a
fellow programmer. When I was encouraging her to add more documentation
to the code, she replied, jokingly, If it was hard for me to write,
then it
On May 16, 2008, at 10:50 AM, Jens Alfke wrote:
but there are still a lot of concepts and details to learn, and many
times their topology does not reduce to a directed acyclic graph
(i.e. you can't present them in order without forward references.)
Jens, I was going to bring up the concept
Forward references are what the concepts docs are for, but for some
reason, they don't seem to be serving that purpose for some people.
I'm not sure why.
I get the feeling that some people never notice the Companion Guides
section at the top of the class references. They're right there at the
On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Scott Ribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Forward references are what the concepts docs are for, but for some
reason, they don't seem to be serving that purpose for some people.
I'm not sure why.
I get the feeling that some people never notice the Companion Guides
On 14 May '08, at 10:16 PM, David Wilson wrote:
3) Instance methods (with the -) are virtual functions. Class
methods (with the +) are static functions.
Class methods aren't exactly like static functions, because they're
still dynamically dispatched and can be overridden by subclasses.
if you've spent a lot of time abusing void * to
hack runtime dynamism into C++
Or if you've done it the right way, with templates--was more what I was
thinking...
1-5 are all very good points. Much of what's been said here belongs in an
intro document somewhere...
--
Scott Ribe
[EMAIL
Lets add to this fun madness. Nice simple clean tutorials like this
http://cocoadevcentral.com/d/learn_objectivec/
Could cocoa parts in the frame work be summed up like that as well?
How many examples or paragraphs and or pages of text does it take to
finally drill down the Cocoa method into your
Am 15.05.2008 um 03:19 schrieb Erik Buck:
2) Learn C and at least learn to recognize low level operations like
bit manipulation, pointers, intrinsic types, pointers to pointers,
pointers to functions, etc. Without this, you will be lost and
dangerous when writing Cocoa programs in
Let me take this opportunity to once again shamelessly plug my C tutorial:
http://masters-of-the-void.com
which covers most of this (it doesn't cover pointers to functions and
bitwise operations), especially memory management and pointers.
Shameless plug but oh so nice of a Tut.
On May 14, 2008, at 8:33 PM, Scott Ribe wrote:
=== If you are primarily an experienced C++ programmer (In my
experience you will have the hardest time)
(2) I will have to personally disagree with this.
I wonder, seriously, if it doesn't depend somewhat on whether or not
you're
a really
then there's not that much new in Objective-C/Cocoa IMHO.
Exactly. Deferred-release makes reference counting easier. Looser more
dynamic typing makes certain things more convenient more concise.
Delegation keeps the single-inheritance hierarchy shallow and
comprehensible. The handful of
I come from Java, and before, for web and for Windows and i am learning
Cocoa for Iphone purposes mainly
For me the biggest issue is to learn the libraries and frameworks (all
these tons of objects)
Cocoa is long away from the pure c Win32 library (of microsoft
windows)...But the true is
and all these stuff
I think this is a crucial point.
My guidance for Cocoa's alleged steep learning curve is, Why are
you making it steep?
It reminds me of the clichéd joke: Doctor, it hurts when I do this.
Well, don't do that.
There are plenty of ways to ease yourself it Cocoa development
On 15 May '08, at 5:03 PM, mmalc crawford wrote:
My guidance for Cocoa's alleged steep learning curve is, Why are
you making it steep?
It reminds me of the clichéd joke: Doctor, it hurts when I do
this. Well, don't do that.
I agree. There are so many questions on this list from people
think this is a crucial point.
My guidance for Cocoa's alleged steep learning curve is, Why are
you making it steep?
It reminds me of the clichéd joke: Doctor, it hurts when I do this.
Well, don't do that.
There are plenty of ways to ease yourself it Cocoa development,
notably just as Bruno
On 15 May '08, at 6:33 PM, Joseph Ayers wrote:
What is absolutely
baffling is dealing with NSTableView. The documentation absolutely
sucks. How does one map table rows and columns
on NSMutableArrays and NSMutableDictionaries. How does one map the
Rows and Columns of a dataSource
on a
On May 15, 2008, at 6:33 PM, Joseph Ayers wrote:
The documentation absolutely sucks. How does one map table rows and
columns on NSMutableArrays and NSMutableDictionaries. How does one
map the Rows and Columns of a dataSource on a NSTable view?
And here's another increasingly prevalent
Regarding the question on how NSTableView works -- there are examples
of Table Views in the Aaron Hillegass book Cocoa programming for Mac
OS X. Also, there are literally hundreds of questions and answers on
Table Views in the archives of this mailing list. When I get stuck on
how to do
On May 15, 2008, at 6:33 PM, Joseph Ayers wrote:
Imagine growing up on Excel and then dealing with NSTableView.
How did this Cocoa NSTableView architecture evolve. Where is the
history?
When I first started with Cocoa I spent (and I still spend) a lot of
time in code for NSTableView (and
The obstacles, misconceptions, and prerequisite concepts that need to
be mastered when learning Cocoa vary dramatically based on the past
experience of the learner. I am a very experienced Cocoa programmer.
I am also an author of the thickest Cocoa Programming book and have
another
=== If you are primarily an experienced C++ programmer (In my
experience you will have the hardest time)
(2) I will have to personally disagree with this.
I wonder, seriously, if it doesn't depend somewhat on whether or not you're
a really good C++ programmer...
--
Scott Ribe
[EMAIL
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