don't think there is a standard format. This project was recently
being discussed on the fuego-devel list (under the "Request for
discussion - big 19x19 opening book" thread), so is a good start?
http://fusekilibrary.sourceforge.net/
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher
p is to try the single thread version by having it
run 4 searches one after another, and merging results. I.e. if that
gives a performance boost over one long search then the cause must be
algorithmic? (?)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet
ars studying and
appreciating good shape.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
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e the defender has only one way to defend but the
attacker has many choices.
But, has anyone gathered stats on positions, from real games, that
require precise play by the defender/attacker/both/neither? Is defending
really easier than attacking?
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/
on
> the architecture will shoot up.
I only skimmed it very lightly, but page 15 discusses memory and page 16
shows how this gives big speedups for radix sort and fluid simulations.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?
.html
--
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of it in that way.)
Darren
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http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (Multilingual open source semantic network)
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ion between
1) expert knowledge
2) patterns (in 19x19)
3) rave values
4) regularized success rate (nbWins +K ) /(nbSims + 2K)
(the original "progressive bias" is simpler than that)
for small numbers of simulations, 1) and 2) are the most important;
3) become important later; and 4)
wrote:
"I think it's more that Many Faces values moves that have good long-term
consequences that the search can't find, so among moves with similar win
rates, it will choose the ones Many Faces prefers."
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/
> They are advertising it as 2-dan (i.e. Japanese 2-dan).
Sorry, I skimmed it too quickly. It actually says: "KGS 2-dan, which is
equivalent to Japanese Nihon Kiin 3-4 dan".
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who wi
ren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
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erwise don't
have it contribute at all.
Quite a rapid decay of their importance is called for: my guess would be
a linear decay of the weight, down to zero contribution 10 moves into
the playout.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet
ves (*).
Darren
*: Is the KGS rating algorithm transparent? So you could exclude
wins/losses in black handicap games, and white handicap games, and
calculate the rating from even games only. Compare this to the main
rating and you instantly know if the bots handicap play is its achilles
hea
of 18+ stones is probably okay, but not quite so
useful :-).
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
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k 161, filling the liberty of a
group that doesn't have two eyes yet, was the obvious point to stop, but
even playing black 163 at N11 would have been in time.)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http://dcook.org/mlsn/
> So many complex ideas :) Why not just multiply the weight of each pattern
> by a random number and pick the biggest result?
Good for 5 patterns, not so good for 5000 patterns.
Darren
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"row sum" in more detail?)
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e same memory pool
I suggest the main boost pool library (*), as I'm sure they've taken
care of the issues, while never losing sight of efficiency.
Darren
*: http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_39_0/libs/pool/doc/index.html
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
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their "all
moves are created equal" low-quality play.
Darren
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http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
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>> I would like to know what exact experiments with "virtual komi"
>> have been made and why thay failed. ...
I'm only aware of Don's experiment [1], which he admits he doesn't have
any details for and only remembers: "I did a bunch of experiments and
ALWAYS got a reduced wins when I faked the kom
fly and it didn't
work well".
Darren
[1]: I think starting here, and then the dozen or so followup messages.
http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/2008-August/015859.html
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http
more playouts?
I think showing it is similar or better with same number of playouts is
a good first step - the second experiment takes 10 times as long to run :-)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http://dcook.org/
heavy algorithm is better
might give other people ideas for lighter but still effective playouts.
Darren
*: As an example, monte carlo itself was ignored for the first 10 years
of its life because traditional programs were stronger on the same hardware.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Develop
is to win. It is in fact a crude
estimator of the final score.
Going back to your original comment, when choosing between move A that
leads to a 0.5pt win, and move B that leads to a 100pt win, you should
be seeing move B has a higher winning percentage.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/D
#x27;m not competing any time soon, so this cannot really count as a
vote for longer time controls.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (Multilingual open source semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (
mathematical endgames), let alone the middle game, and so this didn't
work well.
Why I think this pattern idea might have merit in MCTS is that all you
need is a reasonable ordering of pattern urgency. The move selection
then adds some noise to cover up the inaccuracies.
--
Darren Cook, So
> Chinese rules specify komi of 7.5. Japanese rules specify komi of 6.5.
> In the events I run, at least, I merely follow what the rules say,
> because I do not believe I have sufficient reason to override them.
Thanks Nick.
By the way, here is good explanation of why chinese rules don't use 6.5
t
seem to be working well?
Darren
[1]: e.g.
http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/2009-January/017512.html
[2]: To preempt the pedants: between very strong/perfect players.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http://
o well on 9x9.
Darren
--
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ce patterns were also added, and different patterns sizes can
co-exist in the pattern database, so the tenuki moves also get
considered (but usually with a lower pattern score).
Darren
[1]: http://senseis.xmp.net/?HaneTsugi
[2]: http://senseis.xmp.net/?HaneTsugi%2FAdvanced
--
Darren Cook, Soft
(given the amount of computer power you could possibly manage to take to
an event site, even assuming Moore's Law holds for another 18 months)"
Thankfully he elided that, so as not to bore us :-).
Darren
>> [1]:
>> http://answers.polldaddy.com/poll/1614035/?view=results
--
D
eeded to get past this wall.
Darren
[1]:
http://answers.polldaddy.com/poll/1614035/?view=results
[2]:
http://dcook.org/compgo/article_the_problem_with_random_playouts.html
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (Shodan Go Bet - who will win?)
http://dcook.org/ml
t of time experimenting on good
> exploitation/exploration parameters, I suspect that the last option
> (obey the time management, continue searching, reuse the tree) is the
> better?
>
> Christian
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/gobet/ (The Shodan Go B
e match was today, and I had to choose one or the other I would
personally go for John to win. A couple of early comments I received
also felt the same: "European shodan is strong" (and John is European 2
or 3-dan).
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://
en you think a
computer program will beat the world champion. Have fun! :-)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my
mistake 3 moves before. Once I chose a
better move there it went back to being good for white, so the estimate
at the start of the prime variation seemed valid.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
your opening library, and meaning it would not suddenly find
itself in a situation that it does not understand.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic networ
and Peter. I managed to extract the emails I
was looking for :-).
Darren
> The archives for this list are here:
> http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/
>
> But they only go back to August 2003...
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (Englis
list goes back to at least 1990, and has full archives, as I
remember spending a good number of hours reading them all after I joined
the list in around 1995. I'm interested in tracking down some posts from
1998 to 2000.
Thanks,
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
bit annoying in Ishi-go,
> and small letters are better to read than capital ones.)
I find the B/W very useful: when playing out a long list of moves it is
very easy to lose track where I am. Most moves are equally likely for
both sides.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
h
knesses of seki, and
life/death situations where delicate play is only required by one player).
[2]: Where a program could give hotspots 10 times more playouts compared
to other moves, at root, with the 10:1 ratio deteriorating to 1:1 after
N moves. (E.g. N could be 10, or some function of
un in a specific order). I've also used jam and
ant, but the past 3 or 4 years my make replacement of choice is... drum
roll please... make. It turns out despite its poor design decisions
(such as treating tab and space differently), at least I can always get
the job done with it.
--
ing has changed, libego does light playouts faster
than any other program. (?)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my
playout always goes to the endgame. Strong endgame play in the playouts
should make a program stronger at all stages of a game.
What do you think? Is such a endgame problem suite useful?
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-
pre-allocated pool of Chain objects, which use
std::vector, or fixed-size arrays, to store liberties. So I'm using a
lot more memory. If your idea actually works and is just as quick then
of course I'm interested.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (E
bit further in the game).
Darren
--
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http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
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monte carlo version will always out perform any static
evaluation, given the same overall time (*). But it would be interesting
to know.
Darren
*: Or run the experiment giving the static evaluation four times the
clock time, on the assumption there is more potential for optimization
in complex code.
awful lot of
time to spare when you don't have any.
Darren
--
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http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
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97ms on first try to
the 10th hop)
real0m9.297s
user0m0.000s
sys 0m0.004s
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
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er could also run traceroute before and during the game to get a
fair idea of what is reasonable net lag for that particular client.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/seman
x27;t seem to find a PDF link.)
--
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open source dictionary/semantic network)
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http://dcook.org/blog
Hi Remi,
Thanks for the reply. There are so many parameters to tune and
heuristics to try, and having two types of search (playouts and the
MCTS) doubles the number of knobs! (More than doubles, as there is the
interaction to consider too.)
> I did not try your position. But understanding seki is
urkers, so
even if giving a talk in Timbuktu there may turn out to be someone
living locally!)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
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http://dcook.org/wo
discover when that is good or bad.)
Darren
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http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
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just always says everything is alive?
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http
;t see the seki then white has a 2.5pt win, so this
is just the standard MCTS playing for a 0.5pt win.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
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http://dcook.org/wor
dan amateur. So, going back to the original 7 handicap against a 4p
situation, then if it is an even game it implies black is about 1 dan
(Japanese).
With all the usual disclaimers about the large error margin on a sample
of just 1 game :-).
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http:/
>> It would have been much more persuasive if you had simply run a 5K
>> playout bot against a 100K bot and see which wins more. ...
>
> I may do that, although personally I would be far more cautious about
> drawing conclusions from those matches, as compared to ones played
> against a strong ref
> If you find a Japanese 7p who can give a Korean 1p 2 stones and win, I
> will eat my hat...
No one mentioned Korean professionals. But, as far as I know, a Japanese
7p should be able to give a Japanese 1p 2 stones and win 50% of the
time. Roughly.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Rese
and won by resignation. Making crazy stone 4 or 5 dan, by Japanese
> standards. Maybe 2-3 dan European?
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
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htt
ers on the hardware challenges/solutions?
Darren
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http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
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8/eng/
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Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
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e is like trying to
use a precision screwdriver to hammer in a three-inch nail: your tool
will break before you get any worthwhile results.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary
ers with ranks varying from 2-kyu to 2-dan are
actually 6- or 7-dan players "in the real world".
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://d
computer-go.org/msg09759.html
[2]:
http://remi.coulom.free.fr/Amsterdam2007/
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
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http://dco
that, as sometimes adding knowledge that seems really
fundamental for human players does not seem to help, even before
allowing for the extra CPU cycles used.)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
package/framework which allows me to train my software.
This page, recently started by Eric Marchand, might be a good starting
place:
http://ricoh51.free.fr/go/engineeng.htm
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
the end of the game.
If that is as clear as mud let me know and I'll try to hunt up an
example game.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dc
moving from C++'s std::map to
std::tr1::unordered_map was from 28s to 19.8s. Perhaps the difference
was even bigger on older CPUs, but in this case we certainly want to
stick with hashing.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese
hat they'll not be
beaten any time soon.
David, is MCTS likely to be useful for Arimaa?
Darren
[1]: Though http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrabble#Computer_players is
ambiguous about if computer scrabble players are stronger than human
players or not.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Develo
an
artificially created game where humans run rings around the computers I
would also like to hear about it.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http:/
>>... the average game-length played was 119 moves. ...
> ...
> 111 is for random games. What the bots actually do is far from random.
Or perhaps, if they can make a 9x9 game last 119 moves, it is not *that*
far from random ;-).
Darren
___
computer-go
hough i have no hard-data to give
> you, it gave me a fair result.
Another thing I've picked up from this list is that when you get that
hard, statistically significant data you can frequently be surprised ;-).
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.or
bot as a module"
approach in a whole bunch of scripting languages.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my wo
s why uniform simulations are badly biased; solidly connected
stones almost always win against more loosely connected but perfectly
sound formations, causing the program to play very heavy and
inefficiently."
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-
ite win, yet pure random playouts think black
will win more often.
Darren
>> http://dcook.org/compgo/article_the_problem_with_random_playouts.html
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open sour
ess,...
Hi Claus,
You'll probably enjoy an article I wrote last year on this theme:
http://dcook.org/compgo/article_the_problem_with_random_playouts.html
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
alter the
quality of play are likely to apply equally to all languages anyway.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and
t working code for a tech spec :-).
My concern is that to include all the rules of go, including capture
logic, you need a few hundred lines of code, which might put some people
off.
Perhaps some game with similar game tree properties but less complex
logic would be a better choice. (I'm w
ark.php?test=knucleotide&lang=all
> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=knucleotide&lang=gpp&id=1
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://
ation of binary-trees, it is using
threads, while the C++ version is single-threaded.
Lots of apples and oranges comparisons here :-).
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictiona
to the Microsoft Mouse...)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://dcook.org/blogs.html (My blogs
>> I think with komi = 7.5 white
>> is scoring very high (too high?) in the top games.
> ...
> Looking only at games among the top 5 rankers
> there are 20 games so far (including two tiebreak-games)
> with 15 wins for White and 5 Wins for Black.
>
> Looking at all games among the top 7 rankers
>
> investment. If we can find corporate sponsors, it should not be hard
> to gain access to such hardware. Reading between the lines, I think
> some Microsoft wunderkind may be backing Dave Fotland.
It seems Microsoft are selling such hardware and approached David while
looking for some applicati
> Congratulations!
Yes, well done David. I see Many Faces won even without getting the loss
to Mogo reversed.
> I was surprised to hear that there were now only thirteen entrants. Why
> did Prof. Chen withdraw Go Intellect?
I think he was having computer trouble and the loan computer would hav
.
>> We will have at least the same number of cores, probably more, and we
>> will very likely have a better hardware -
>> the infiniband network should be available, and this makes a big
>> difference.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
ht
d any pro 13x13 games. There
seems to be a few games played by strong amateurs on servers, and again
the rankings tend to match 19x19, but 9x9 seems much more popular.
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
o
cond Mogo would do on that :-).
Darren
[1]:
http://www.top500.org/blog/2008/06/14/preview_31st_top500_list_world_s_most_powerful_supercomputers_topped_world_s_first_petaflop_s_system
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chine
>> Has anyone tried implementing the ideas in Richard Hunter's "Counting
>> Liberties"
No, but I did make a test suite that included many of the interesting
positions (it also included many others of my own creation, both for
semeai and tactical search). (And, though almost all the positions were
ance intended. (E.g. maybe an arc can be
a forced sequence of more than one move, or something like that)?
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dco
it still uses MCTS.
(I hope someone will let me know if not, as I'd then have to sit up and
readjust my view of the universe :-).
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dicti
lel).
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (blog on php, flash
xperiment to perform.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.org/work/ (About me and my work)
http://darrendev.blogspot.com/ (bl
n that very small experiment, faking komi chooses different moves,
but they are probably equally good.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dco
lutter its eyelids across the board every
now and again.
(In case anyone says I forgot the smiley, I'm being serious: people will
mind losing less to a pretty machine than losing to a cube of metal;
just as an elderly man would rather the above android helps them to the
toilet than something
s them a 90% (+/- 20%) win
(against themselves). (I.e. I'm saying their error margin in the opening
is much greater than the difference in their estimate of move values.)
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-Germa
nerally, has anyone seen increases/decreases in overall
strength from explicitly checking for seki at leaf nodes?
I remember reading that when nakade support was adding to Mogo it made
it slightly stronger at 9x9, but weaker at 19x19. Was this version
released, and can nakade support be switc
game (e.g. move 6 in 9x9 go, move 30 in 19x19 go).
Or it could keep adjusting komi (until it reaches the actual komi) so
that it thinks it is only just winning.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
oughts of against
> computers among people.
People like that will get emotional whichever words you use.
Darren
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/sem
of papers to read:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?ComplexityOfGo
[2]: (Sorry, cannot find the URL at the moment.)
--
Darren Cook, Software Researcher/Developer
http://dcook.org/mlsn/ (English-Japanese-German-Chinese-Arabic
open source dictionary/semantic network)
http://dcook.o
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