Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

Hi Ali: Good question. Agree with this: "If there is no pain %u2014 inotherwords, if the organization can't feel how their hard-to-use product is hurting them %u2014 then there is probably nothing you can do." - Jared Spool and this ... "I've made myself blue in the face trying to convince bot

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

Ali, As Scott said Think about what approaches fit the culture, attitude and environment you're in. You should be good at this, it's a kind of problem solving, which is what designers do. I have written on my blog http://blog.feralabs.com/2008/12/why-i-started-webnographer/ the attitudes of one

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

> Ali wrote: > > As a User Centered Design graduate I find it quite irritating to > be working in an environment where engineers run everything. > My position does not allow me to say much yet as a Tech Writer/Project > Manager assisting the engineers on usability issues I have had it! All the

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

[Jared wrote: I have yet to meet anyone on the development or engineering side of the operation who doesn't understand that a usable design is better. However, not all designs need to be usable to be successful, and since making something usable is often an added expense, it's hard to justify.] I'

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

Michael Micheletti makes some astoundingly insightful points above. All very good and effective advice for the situation being discussed here. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=37605 ___

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

Again, thank you for contributing to this topic. My kickoff went really well and I was able to convince the "brain" behind the project. (An engineer) User tests will be conducted and I might be able to do them much earlier than planned. (These people have already created much of the HW/SF products

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

Ali, It sounds to me like you want to build a collaborative environment where you have opinion is respected. So share your toys and invite them to play with you. If you want qualitative research make it happen somehow. If you don't have a budget, arrange for people as close to your target user a

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

On Jan 26, 2009, at 3:44 PM, Patrick wrote: There are many, many environments where UX isn't the focus, and even if they have hired someone in that field, they don't know what to do with that person, or the developers aren't interested in UX because it gets in the way of them not being on

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

On Jan 26, 2009, at 6:49 PM, Russell Wilson wrote: So what are the criteria? That's what I'm after. (and don't say "it depends") :-) It's easy to say "everyone's opinion counts", "there's more than one good solution", "we should all work together", etc. And we do just that... But when

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

I think the key here is to step back to the highest level first before getting mired in specifics. Presumably whatever it is you are designing is designed for some purpose, and to meet either business goals or user goals. The business goals tend to be much better defined at companies, or one shou

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

I just wanted to second what Michael said (especially his first suggestion about spec writing), and add a couple things. I too have made a career as the designer among engineers. Developers tend to not like having to work out the details of a UI layout. If it is a web app, provide them with

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

Hi Ali, Hope I'm not stepping in too late here. I've made something of a career of being "the designer on the development team". Although I once was "the developer on the design team" which might even have been a bit stranger. Here are some approaches that have worked for me: - Volunteer to write

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

Interesting comments from all of you. Thank you. I have had a few conversations with the department managers, other co-workers and even prepared a powerpoint presentation for my first kickoff, (many of the attendants are engineers) wherein I will stress the importance of user Centered Design (OOBE,

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

On Jan 26, 2009, at 3:51 PM, Josh Evnin wrote: It didn't take much convincing that this approach would work, and when it succeeded, it bought me at least a little leverage within my organization to try other approaches with other clients. ...and that's selling. You identify a situation whe

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

On Jan 26, 2009, at 3:44 PM, Patrick wrote: When talking about what we care about, aren't we really selling? And the best selling involves using others to sell what we believe in? There are many, many environments that we all work in, but I'm going to generalize into two -- one that's

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

When talking about what we care about, aren't we really selling? And the best selling involves using others to sell what we believe in? There are many, many environments that we all work in, but I'm going to generalize into two -- one that's UX focused, and the other than is not. By t

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

Finally. That is the question. All the research, design concepts and theories can be blown into oblivion in one instance. I could tell you what I think. I could tell you what I've experienced. I could tell you it doesn't depend. But, I'll tell you a story instead. When I first moved to LA I was

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

So what are the criteria? That's what I'm after. (and don't say "it depends") :-) It's easy to say "everyone's opinion counts", "there's more than one good solution", "we should all work together", etc. And we do just that... But when it comes to deciding on a particular solution and moving for

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

On Jan 26, 2009, at 2:47 PM, Russell Wilson wrote: Exactly my point. Given that there are 1+ equally viable design solutions, it may be impossible to prove that "yours" is better. That's not correct. It is very possible to prove any number of designs are BETTER than PREVIOUS DESIGNS as l

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

I agree with Jared's comment that we should not be demonizing developers and engaging in an us versus them battle. I spent a few years as a development manager and during my first week on the job when I reviewed my developers' performance goals, discovered that there was not a single goal about go

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

I agree with Jared and Josh. There's no use arguing back and forth. Stop and take a deep breath and think about the other side. Rather than presenting a new idea as being better, ask the engineers about their ideas. What do they believe works best and why? Getting to their rationale might inspire a

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

Jared said: Ali, if you do what Patrick suggests, you'll not only fail, but you'll have a miserable time doing so. Your job isn't to *sell* your teammates on anything. It's about teamwork. Find out what the objectives and long-term vision of the team is. Work from there. I've got to agree with

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

On Jan 26, 2009, at 12:02 AM, Patrick wrote: Get used to it. ;) It's the real world. Your job is to sell them on it. Sounds tough, but it's true. On Jan 25, 2009, at 2:12 PM, Ali Amrohvi wrote: As a User Centered Design graduate I find it quite irritating to be working in an environment

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

On Jan 26, 2009, at 5:47 PM, Russell Wilson wrote: Exactly my point. Given that there are 1+ equally viable design solutions, it may be impossible to prove that "yours" is better. 1. Better can be both subjective and provable. 2. If you want to pursue multiple design solutions, then do so.

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

On Jan 26, 2009, at 2:47 PM, Russell Wilson wrote: And how do you objectively prove it's better? Short of testing alternatives you have a very subjective problem. Further, there is rarely if ever "one" perfect design solution, but many very good solutions possible; any and all of which w

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

> And how do you objectively prove it's better? Short of testing >> alternatives you have a very subjective problem. >> > > Further, there is rarely if ever "one" perfect design solution, but many > very good solutions possible; any and all of which work well enough within > reason and to varying

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

On Jan 26, 2009, at 12:44 PM, Russell Wilson wrote: And how do you objectively prove it's better? Short of testing alternatives you have a very subjective problem. Not true. Often the real problem is everyone sees the problem differently, so you're never really having the same conversation.

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

Get used to it. ;) It's the real world. Your job is to sell them on it. Sounds tough, but it's true. On Jan 25, 2009, at 2:12 PM, Ali Amrohvi wrote: As a User Centered Design graduate I find it quite irritating to be working in an environment where engineers run everything ... Few of them h

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

On Jan 26, 2009, at 10:44 AM, Russell Wilson wrote: And how do you objectively prove it's better? Short of testing alternatives you have a very subjective problem. It is possible to objectively test any design problem, as long as one remembers that the definition of the problem is largely

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

And how do you objectively prove it's better? Short of testing alternatives you have a very subjective problem. Russ http://www.dexodesign.com Sent from my iPhone On Jan 26, 2009, at 12:20 PM, Andrei Herasimchuk > wrote: On Jan 25, 2009, at 2:12 PM, Ali Amrohvi wrote: They all believe t

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

On Jan 25, 2009, at 2:12 PM, Ali Amrohvi wrote: They all believe that designing for the end users only involve usability issues... Should I send them a copy of Allan Cooper's "The Inmates are running the asylum"? :) How about you send them a better design, prove it's better through whateve

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

I think it's time to let the engineers observe representative users with their product. When you've gotten to the point of frustration and feel like your opinion isn't respected, back it up with user data. Schedule a few informal usability tests and let the engineers watch users struggle. I've seen

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

> There is NO qualitative research and both hardware-/software engineers > think that their own opinion about the products matter. As a side note, on an "abstraction layer" for developers/engineers: . -- Jens Meiert http://meier

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

I totally agree... involved them early. And... not just the engineers... get one or two people from every stakeholder's department, and then some, involved as early as possible, in as many stages as possible. By the time you go to launch, everyone has had a hand in the product and feels some

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

I have found that in a situation like this the best defense you have is to clarify your job description with your manager or CTO. By having your responsibilities defined in "writing" you hold the pass key to throw your weight around in the fighting ring especially when it comes to issues that direc

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

Unfortunately, there is a strong us-vs-them mentality among engineers. There's also a resistance to accept aesthetics as relevant to a product's success. Part of this is due to the misconception that "because I can write UI code, I can also design it adequately." Engineers tend to assemble UIs s

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

Ideally (my ideal), the process would pay, through each iteration. There have been a handful of occasions when I had guaranteed some aspect of the project to meet some unknown level of approval for some unknown feature. Nightmarish, at best, those occasions. I'm personally getting better at

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

Ahhh, that's better. But it sure would have been less painful of someone could have stopped me before I did it! I can't count the number of times I have seen pain and suffering as a result of features that went live before they were "designed". And each time, I got to say "I told you so"

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

Dude(s),I've worked for number 1 in the nation marketing and advertising agencies. Start ups Freelance In a variety of industries. If you are asking your engineers to change something like moving a button your process needs to be revised. Ideal is you slowly iterate and shave off the input as th

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

On Jan 25, 2009, at 7:41 PM, gavin burke|FAW wrote: You have to understand also the engineers perspective. From their perspective they are the most important part of the process, without them there would be no product just fresh air. [...] My advice is to wait around, cut your teeth abit

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

You have to understand also the engineers perspective. From their perspective they are the most important part of the process, without them there would be no product just fresh air. So they feel they own it in a way. Underneath the interface is a whole different world of complexity. If an i

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

Hi Janna, > Also no one likes to feel like a dumb ass. Everyone wants to feel like they > know what they're doing. So consider how you can approach the challenge as > less a Debbie (or Donnie) Downer [ie. here are all the things that are wrong > with what you've made], and more how you can make th

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

I think that is great advice. I like it. But their are some enormous A-holes that engineer. I think every department should have one person from another department on that team as a liaison. The last four or so gigs I've had have been on engineering teams and it is not my background. What brought m

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

In work environments like this, I have found that forcing our discipline into the process is the least effective... the "you MUST work with us" mantra will fall on deaf ears. It's often relationship building, one person at a time. Get one or two engineers who have seen the positive impact your pers

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

"*Development style. * More and more engineering-driven places are using Agile and Agile-esque approaches such as Scrum for development. This can make it challenging to meet big-picture needs such as UX & IA. It is indeed possible, however." I'd love to learn more about this; maybe I'll start anot

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

Ask them how many engineers use their software. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=37605 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

Ali, I sympathize. What Jay recommends is excellent advice for grappling with any overly strong and unreflective group, but there are more specific approaches that work best with engineers and similar personality types. Occasionally there are even advantages in having such a group. There are two

Re: [IxDA Discuss] What to do in an environment run by engineers??

Time to work on your persuasion skills, patience, and what Peter Merholtz refers to IA (in this case, IxD) Judo. And, use Stephen Anderson's "Eye-Candy is a Critical Business Requirement" to build your case, http://www.slideshare.net/stephenpa/eye-candy-is-a-critical-business-requirement.