Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

There is no reason consciousness is restricted to only one of these three. For that matter, self-reference in the Turing machine sense involves information. Function is just another way of thinking of an algorithm. LC On Friday, June 18, 2021 at 1:46:39 PM UTC-5 Jason wrote: > In your opinion

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 4:39:25 PM UTC+2 Bruno Marchal wrote: > but I would say that self-reference in the sense of intrinsic identity of > an object explains qualitative properties of consciousness (qualia). > > > But what is a object? What is intrinsic identity? And why that would give >

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

> On 4 Jul 2021, at 21:17, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > On 7/4/2021 4:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 19 Jun 2021, at 13:17, smitra wrote: >>> >>> Information is the key. Conscious agents are defined by precisely that >>> information that specifies the content of t

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

> On 4 Jul 2021, at 17:40, Tomas Pales wrote: > > > On Friday, June 18, 2021 at 8:46:39 PM UTC+2 Jason wrote: > In your opinion who has offered the best theory of consciousness to date, or > who do you agree with most? Would you say you agree with them wholeheartedly > or do you find points i

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 7:56 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: >> Suppose there is an AI that behaves more intelligently than the most >> intelligent human who ever lived, however when the machine is opened up to >> see how this intelligence is actually achieved one consciousness theory >> doesn't like what

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On 7/4/2021 4:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 19 Jun 2021, at 13:17, smitra wrote: Information is the key. Conscious agents are defined by precisely that information that specifies the content of their consciousness. This means that a conscious agent can never be precisely located in some p

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On Friday, June 18, 2021 at 8:46:39 PM UTC+2 Jason wrote: > In your opinion who has offered the best theory of consciousness to date, > or who do you agree with most? Would you say you agree with them > wholeheartedly or do you find points if disagreement? > > I am seeing several related though

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

> On 19 Jun 2021, at 16:02, John Clark wrote: > > Suppose there is an AI that behaves more intelligently than the most > intelligent human who ever lived, however when the machine is opened up to > see how this intelligence is actually achieved one consciousness theory > doesn't like what it

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

> On 19 Jun 2021, at 13:17, smitra wrote: > > Information is the key. Conscious agents are defined by precisely that > information that specifies the content of their consciousness. This means > that a conscious agent can never be precisely located in some physical > object, because the inf

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

> On 19 Jun 2021, at 02:18, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > I'm most with Dennett. I see consciousness as having several different > levels, which are also different levels of self-reference. Different modes, yes (“level” is already used to describe the Doctor(s coding des

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

> On 18 Jun 2021, at 20:46, Jason Resch wrote: > > In your opinion who has offered the best theory of consciousness to date, or > who do you agree with most? Would you say you agree with them wholeheartedly > or do you find points if disagreement? > > I am seeing several related thoughts comm

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On Sun, Jun 20, 2021 at 6:51 PM Jason Resch wrote: > *Anything we can identify as having universal utility or describe as a > universal goal we can use to predict the long term direction of technology, > even if humans are no longer the drivers of it.* > Goals are always in a constant state of f

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

s theorem that purports to prove inverted qualia. I'll have to read more on that. Jason -Original Message- From: smitra To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, Jun 19, 2021 7:17 am Subject: Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness? In

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On 6/20/2021 3:51 PM, Jason Resch wrote: It's not impossible if there are universal goals. Even a paperclip maximizer will have the meta goal of increasing its knowledge, during which time it may learn to escape its programming, just as the human brain may transcended its biological programm

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

-Original Message- From: smitra To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, Jun 19, 2021 7:17 am Subject: Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness? This resolves paradoxes you get in thought experiments where you consider simulating a brain

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

Thanks, I had heard the phenomenon described before. Poincare gives probably the best description of it that I've seen. Jason On Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 4:47 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > Sorry. I thought Poincare' effect was a common term, but ap

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 2:48 PM John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 11:36 AM Jason Resch wrote: > > >> I'm enormously impressed with Deepmind and I'm an optimist regarding >>> AI, but I'm not quite that optimistic. >>> >> >> *>Are you familiar with their Agent 57? -- a single algorithm tha

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

x27;m not sure however that I agreed with his theorem that purports to prove inverted qualia. I'll have to read more on that. Jason > > > -Original Message- > From: smitra > To: everything-list@googlegroups.com > Sent: Sat, Jun 19, 2021 7:17 am > Subject: Re: Wh

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On Sun, Jun 20, 2021 at 2:28 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: >> If so then consciousness is the inevitable byproduct of intelligent >> behavior. > > > * > Yes, I agree with that. But I don't think either intelligence or > consciousness are all-or-

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On 6/20/2021 2:43 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 8:46 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: /> Certain values are built in by evolution, values related to reproducing mostly/ Humans don't have a fixed hierarchical goal

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On 6/20/2021 2:26 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 7:17 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: /> This depends on how we define consciousness.  If it means imagining and using simulations in which you represent yourself in

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 8:46 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: *> Certain values are built in by evolution, values related to reproducing > mostly* Humans don't have a fixed hierarchical goal structure, our values are in a constant state of flux, ev

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 7:17 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > *> This depends on how we define consciousness. If it means imagining and > using simulations in which you represent yourself in order to plan your > actions then maybe natural selecti

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On 6/19/2021 4:12 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: /> For example, wee could rule out many theories and narrow down on those that accept "organizational invariance" as Chalmers defines it. This is the principle that if one entity is consciousness, and another enti

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On 6/19/2021 3:20 PM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 5:57 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > /What I think is missing in the JKC's idea that intelligence is//interesting and understandable but consciousness isn't, is

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On 6/19/2021 12:48 PM, John Clark wrote: I know Darwinian Evolution produced me and I know for a fact that I am conscious, but Natural Selection can't see consciousness any better than we can directly see consciousness in other people, This depends on how we define consciousness.  If it mean

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On 6/19/2021 12:48 PM, John Clark wrote: Of my own free will, I consciously decide to go to a restaurant. /Why? / Because I want to. /Why ? / Because I want to eat. /Why?/ Because I'm hungry? /Why ?/ Because lack of food triggered nerve impulses  in my stomach , my braininterpreted these sign

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 at 05:48, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 11:36 AM Jason Resch wrote: > > >> I'm enormously impressed with Deepmind and I'm an optimist regarding >>> AI, but I'm not quite that optimistic. >>> >> >> *>Are you familiar with their Agent 57? -- a single algorithm tha

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 5:57 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > *What I think is missing in the JKC's idea that intelligence is* *interesting > and understandable but consciousness isn't, is that he* *leaves out > values. Intelligence is define in t

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On 6/19/2021 8:54 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 6:17 AM smitra > wrote: Information is the key.  Conscious agents are defined by precisely that information that specifies the content of their consciousness. While I think this is true, I d

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On 6/19/2021 8:35 AM, Jason Resch wrote: You appear to operate according to a "mysterian" view of consciousness, which is that we cannot ever know. Several philosophers of mind have expressed this, such as Thomas Nagel I believe. I have some sympathy with this view, but I ask "cannot know w

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

Sorry.  I thought Poincare' effect was a common term, but apparently not.  Here's his description starting about half way thru this essay http://vigeland.caltech.edu/ist4/lectures/Poincare%20Reflections.pdf Brent On 6/19/2021 7:52 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, Jun 18, 2021, 8:59 PM 'Brent

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 11:36 AM Jason Resch wrote: >> I'm enormously impressed with Deepmind and I'm an optimist regarding AI, >> but I'm not quite that optimistic. >> > > *>Are you familiar with their Agent 57? -- a single algorithm that > mastered all 57 Atari games at a super human level, wit

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

- From: smitra To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, Jun 19, 2021 7:17 am Subject: Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness? Information is the key.  Conscious agents are defined by precisely that information that specifies the content of their

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On 6/19/2021 4:17 AM, smitra wrote: Information is the key.  Conscious agents are defined by precisely that information that specifies the content of their consciousness. This means that a conscious agent can never be precisely located in some physical object, because the information that de

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 6:17 AM smitra wrote: > Information is the key. Conscious agents are defined by precisely that > information that specifies the content of their consciousness. While I think this is true, I don't know of a consciousness theory that is explicit in terms of how information

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On Sat, Jun 19, 2021, 5:55 AM John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 8:17 PM Jason Resch wrote: > > *>Deepmind has succeeded in building general purposes learning algorithms. >> Intelligence is mostly a solved problem,* >> > > I'm enormously impressed with Deepmind and I'm an optimist regar

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On Fri, Jun 18, 2021, 8:59 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > On 6/18/2021 5:16 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > - Is consciousness inherent to any intelligent process? > > > > I think the answer is yes, what do you think? > > > Not just any intell

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

Suppose there is an AI that behaves more intelligently than the most intelligent human who ever lived, however when the machine is opened up to see how this intelligence is actually achieved one consciousness theory doesn't like what it sees and concludes that despite its great intelligence it is n

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

Information is the key. Conscious agents are defined by precisely that information that specifies the content of their consciousness. This means that a conscious agent can never be precisely located in some physical object, because the information that describes the conscious experience will a

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 8:17 PM Jason Resch wrote: *>Deepmind has succeeded in building general purposes learning algorithms. > Intelligence is mostly a solved problem,* > I'm enormously impressed with Deepmind and I'm an optimist regarding AI, but I'm not quite that optimistic. If intelligence

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On 6/18/2021 5:16 PM, Jason Resch wrote: - Is consciousness inherent to any intelligent process? I think the answer is yes, what do you think? Not just any intelligent process.  But any at human (or even dog) level.  I think human level consciousness depends on language or similar represe

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

I'm most with Dennett.  I see consciousness as having several different levels, which are also different levels of self-reference.  At the lowest level even bacteria recognize (in the functional/operational sense) a distinction between "me" and "everything else".  A little above that, some that

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On Fri, Jun 18, 2021, 2:37 PM John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 2:46 PM Jason Resch wrote: > > *>In your opinion who has offered the best theory of consciousness to >> date, or who do you agree with most?* > > > One consciousness theory is as good as another because there are no facts

Re: Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 2:46 PM Jason Resch wrote: *>In your opinion who has offered the best theory of consciousness to date, > or who do you agree with most?* One consciousness theory is as good as another because there are no facts such a theory must fit. About all I can say is consciousness

Which philosopher or neuro/AI scientist has the best theory of consciousness?

In your opinion who has offered the best theory of consciousness to date, or who do you agree with most? Would you say you agree with them wholeheartedly or do you find points if disagreement? I am seeing several related thoughts commonly expressed, but not sure which one or which combination is r