Just saw this in yesterday's National Post:
National Post Online
December 9, 2000
Chretien eyes cradle-to-grave benefits
Longing for a legacy, PM creates committee to study guaranteed annual
income program
James Baxter
Southam News
OTTAWA - Jean Chretien is consi
://citiinco01.uuhost.uk.uu.net/discussion/index.shtml>
seems to
have run out of debaters without reaching a consensus on the question: "is
there an argument for a piecemeal introduction of a Basic Income?" The
debate running on Canadian mail list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> is in
worse shape tha
We will do a book launch for our new book, Basic Income: Economic security
for all Canadians (Between the Lines, Toronto, 1999) from 7-9 pm on Friday,
January 28 at the Bloor Street United Church, 300 Bloor St. W., Toronto.
All are welcome for some good discussion.
Sally Lerner, Charles Clark
To: John Vandenberg and friends on several mail lists.
Many thanks, John, for sending me the executive summary of
the article by Lucy Sullivan entitled, "Tax Injustice: Keeping the
family cap-in-hand," which can be found at
in the Issues Analysis section. I found Ms. Sullivan's analysis
ver
ents is also fixed, and quite independent of how much work the
worker is doing.
Now it seems to me that the standard practice of our most capital
intensive industry, electric power, the industry which defines the
lifestyle of industrial societies, provides a powerful argument in favor
of establishin
A few months ago I started playing with the idea of
an absolutely universal basic income. I deliberately have not read any of the
literature on it (like Sally's book) so that I could work out the ramifications
of this idea without being influenced (or discouraged) by previous thoug
nMarkam
will be (905) 471 0320.
Keep at it !
j
--
>From: "S. Lerner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: FW New book on Basic Income
>Date: Fri, Dec 10, 1999, 3:45 pm
>
>FWers - Just to let you know - a
FWers - Just to let you know - a primer on Basic Income is now available
from Between the Lines books in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.. Authors are
Sally Lerner, Charles M.A. Clark and W. Robert Needham. I take no royalties
- the book is meant to be widely circulated and read to stimulate
discussion
lanck Institute,
SASE holds one big international conference every year. The theme of
this one hardly guaranteed that basic income would play a prominent role in
it.
Yet, it did. Among the countless parallel workshops, one was explicitly
devoted to basic income, with a critical review of a numbe
demeaning means tests.
3) The highest stage of evolution, of simply giving people enough to live
on and letting them do as they please with their own time. In different
countries it is called Mincome, Citizen's income, Guaranteed Annual Income
(GAI), and Basic Income.
The question is
>
> Once again, you have cut through the BS of my thinking. On the one hand, I
> can find rational answers such as the Basic Income which I am sure will
> provide a corrective for the capitalistic system. I can also agree with
> others answers, such as WesBurt's prop
Dear Eva:
Once again, you have cut through the BS of my thinking. On the one hand, I
can find rational answers such as the Basic Income which I am sure will
provide a corrective for the capitalistic system. I can also agree with
others answers, such as WesBurt's proposals or some o
o a movie, have a
> picnic in the park we are violating our status in life. Give us a basic
> income and get off our back, I think would be endorsed by the majority of
> the poor. Allow us to have dreams for our children and we will live
> modestly.
>
> Respectfully,
>
>
the park we are violating our status in life. Give us a basic
income and get off our back, I think would be endorsed by the majority of
the poor. Allow us to have dreams for our children and we will live
modestly.
Respectfully,
Thomas Lunde
--
>From: "S. Lerner" <[EMAIL
Much to my delight, the following appeared in today's Toronto Globe and
Mail: A13 ("J.K.Galbraith, who is 90, delivered this lecture last week on
receiving an honorary doctorate from the London School of Economics. It is
reprinted from The Guardian." )
Excerpt: "I come to two pieces of the unfin
Title: Re Basic Income re JK Galbraith
Tom Walker wrote:
> JKG made a further contribution to economics by siring James K., whose book
> Created Unequal shows that carefully done equations and regressions can
> stand for something after all -- such as debunking the mythology of
>
Title: RE Basic Income re JK Galbraith
Tom Walker wrote:
> JKG made a further contribution to economics by siring James K., whose book
> Created Unequal shows that carefully done equations and regressions can
> stand for something after all -- such as debunking the mythology of
>
Arthur Cordell wrote:
>And I do believe that JK Galbraith was President of the American Economics
>Association. Forget which year. So, he is a real live bona fide economist.
>Yes, writing clearly and plainly and not hiding behind a lot of equations,
>regressions, etc., which, upon closer examin
little and stand for not much at all.
There. Feel better already.
arthur cordell
--
From: Ed Weick
To: Thomas Lunde
Cc: List Futurework
Subject: Re: Basic Income re JK Galbraith
Date: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 3:51PM
Picking up a book at the local library, my hand was guided to "A
Title: Basic Income re JK Galbraith
Picking
up a book at the local library, my hand was guided to "A View
fromthe Stands" by John Kenneth Galbraith. I never really
know how to classifyGalbraith whether as an economist, a liberal who
happens to be an eco
Title: Basic Income re JK Galbraith
Picking up a book at the local library, my hand was guided to "A View from
the Stands" by John Kenneth Galbraith. I never really know how to classify
Galbraith whether as an economist, a liberal who happens to be an economist
or a professional
ss, we agree, is demoralizing. But even here there is a question:
Why is leisure so uniformly bad for the poor and so uniformly good for the
exceptionally well-to-do?
We can easily afford an income floor. (Thomas: Interesting that in My
Family Basic Income Proposal, I used the metaphor of a Bas
Dear Mark Elliot,
The best source for a philosophical defense of the basic income
concept is Philippe Van Parijs, Real Freedom for All: What (if anything)
can justify capitalism? Oxford U. Press, 1995.
The best person to contact on all matters pertaining to basic
income is
Have a look at this
"A Universal Basic Income (UBI) is an unconditional cash payment to
individuals sufficient to meet basic needs."
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.geocities.com/~ubinz/
also
I have developed a model "Widgets in S-Basic" that demonstrates that a
"Citizen
A while back on this list there was a discsusion
of basic income schemes. Can anyone give a reference
(web or hard) to work on this. I am particularly interested
in stuff moddelling the tax/national accounts effects,
but general stuff would be good too.
Thanks
Mark
igence
and respect into>educating all our children, making sure their homes are
not empty or>hellish, and offering them as adults a real choice of useful
and creative>activities--some paid, some not--as part of the Basic Income
society.>Otherwise BI will fail many people, being nothing
>X-Originating-IP: [130.241.181.236]
>From: "mats hoglund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: basic income
>Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 13:10:26 PST
>Status: U
>
>Hi!
>Im a 29 y.o swedish student interested in basic income. Maybe I will
The topic of basic income has come up on the "Third Way" Economic Policy
debate list at http://www.netnexus.org/debates/3wayecon/
I personally find the tone of that third way debate stuffy and unrewarding.
But there is an argument there calculated to raise the hackles of Thomas
Lu
> Do I seem to recall having been told by the
> economic scientists that Marx's *Labor Theory of Value*
> is bunk?
>
I think the jury is still out...
> \brad mccormick
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
it is replaced
by sets of skills marketed by individuals.)
A guaranteed or basic income, however provided, probably should be viewed as a
temporary measure as we "transition" from the Industrial Age to something
else. Just as our present factory-style education system emerged to train
it is replaced
by sets of skills marketed by individuals.)
A guaranteed or basic income, however provided, probably should be viewed as a
temporary measure as we "transition" from the Industrial Age to something
else. Just as our present factory-style education system emerged to train
>I agree, there are some good economists (those who know and admit their
>limitations) and some bad economists. The problem is that the bad ones are
>thrust into the public eye because they DO support the system. We rarely
>hear from the good economists.
>
>Jay
I suppose it depends on where yo
Thomas,
I have to quit. Life calls and I'll have to lurk for awhile. Just a few
comments on your last posting, and that's it.
>Again agreed but the difference seems to be that when their conclusions
>prove to be out of touch with reality, they tend to deny reality. How so,
>you might ask? Th
Thomas Lunde:
Without having the benefit of Jeff's thought, the question then becomes do
all the citizen who have been issued shares or have borrowed money to buy
shares then spend the rest of their life trading shares as their only
productive activity short of not trading and hoping that the shar
From: Brad McCormick, Ed.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>I presume Hardin is one of the good ones. Or is he an
>example of a non-economist doing good economics (my
He's an ecologist (Tragedy of the Commons, etc.)
>Since when did economists in general defend the system? Some did, others
>did not. Marx was an economist who both recognized the tremendous
potential
I agree, there are some good economists (those who know and admit their
limitations) and some bad economists. The problem is that the bad ones
>Ed said:
>
>In Economics 101, under "perfectly
>>competitive equilibrium", everybody is paid their full worth, and there is
>>no possibility of monopoly profit, since monopoly does not exist.
However,
>>like the much maligned economist's assumption of "rationality", perfectly
>>competitive equili
e should be shareholders with government, if necessary, buying shares on
> their behalf.
>
> Now has appeared Jeff Gates's book, The Ownership Solution, detailing such an
> approach. <http://www.ownershipsolution.com/>
>
> Whereas Tom Lunde's essay, Basic Income
-
>Thomas Lunde:
>
>>In summing up this lengthy rebuttal, I have had to do some soul searching
>>about my concepts. Basically, I believe people come before profit and
that
>>people are more important than profit.
ed said:
>
>If by this you mean that people should not be economically exploited,
ughts, I will use your
comments to share them.
-Original Message-
From: Bob McDaniel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: FutureWork <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: September 6, 1998 1:49 PM
Subject: FW: Re: Basic Income
>Hi all,
>
>Another approach to an income for all:
>
>I on
ehalf.
Now has appeared Jeff Gates's book, The Ownership Solution, detailing such an
approach. <http://www.ownershipsolution.com/>
Whereas Tom Lunde's essay, Basic Income, seems to rely on government to issue
and control funds, the solution envisioned by Gates relies on the operat
ehalf.
Now has appeared Jeff Gates's book, The Ownership Solution, detailing such an
approach. <http://www.ownershipsolution.com/>
Whereas Tom Lunde's essay, Basic Income, seems to rely on government to issue
and control funds, the solution envisioned by Gates relies on the operat
Thomas Lunde:
>In summing up this lengthy rebuttal, I have had to do some soul searching
>about my concepts. Basically, I believe people come before profit and that
>people are more important than profit.
If by this you mean that people should not be economically exploited, and
that they should
c: Future Work <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: September 5, 1998 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: Re Basic Income
>Thomas Lunde wrote the following quote from Mr. Krugman, economist
>at MIT:
>
> "subordinating the needs of finance to those of people"
>
>What a unique idea! It'
-Original Message-
From: Rob Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Thomas Lunde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: Future Work <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Ed Weick
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: September 5, 1998 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: Basic Income
>Dear Thomas,
>
>Your digitalize
> Countries like Sweden which taxed their wealthy heavily, but allowed for
> display of wealth, propered, even though the very wealthy left for lower
> taxed regimes.
Sweden felt the pinch in the last decades with growing
unemployment and stagnation, though ofcourse, the standard
of living is s
Thomas Lunde wrote the following quote from Mr. Krugman, economist
at MIT:
"subordinating the needs of finance to those of people"
What a unique idea! It's a refreshing change after the '80's mantra
"Greed Is Good, Greed Is God" popularized by Oliver's Gecko and the
oil companies' Reaga
Thomas Lunde wrote the following quote from Mr. Krugman, economist
at MIT:
"subordinating the needs of finance to those of people"
What a unique idea! It's a refreshing change after the '80's mantra
"Greed Is Good, Greed Is God" popularized by Oliver's Gecko and the
oil companies' Re
Dear Thomas,
Your digitalized debate with Ed Weick is classic. It's not only
informative (where did you two *get* all that information!?), it's
fun and concise and lively and thought-provoking and everything a
good debate should be. The Lunde-Weick Exchange is right up there
with Benny & All
Dear Ed;
Just a small continuation of my last post in which I argued that:
In summing up this lengthy rebuttal, I have had to do some soul searching
about my concepts. Basically, I believe people come before profit and that
people are more important than profit. We could still have Capital, in
I think similar high-tax regimes were tried in
some European countries, it made business
stagnate/uncompetitive due to lower profitability.
An old defunct solution based on capitalism.
Eva
>
> If the objective is to transfer income from the haves to the have nots, I
> don't understand why it c
even RCMP. Two, in protection against illness and
accident through medical assistance = Medicare and finally through education
as each individual desires to the level they desire.
Frankly, I think the aboriginal people will find this acceptable, however,
let us let them speak for themselves. I take awa
First let me thank you for your insightful critique. I appreciate the time
and thought you gave. I will try and give some kind of answer to you two
points.
>>The Numbers
>
>
>>In round numbers, Canadas population is 30 million and if every citizen
>>received the Basi
is list, the more people are working
longer than they did 20 - 30 years ago and yet the amount of Capital in the
world has increased.
To say that this is the fault of society is perhaps the one place we might
have some agreement and my concepts of a Basic Income happen to be my
solution which I wi
: "Thomas Lunde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>The Numbers
>In round numbers, Canadas population is 30 million and if every citizen
>received the Basic Income, the total cost would be $450 billion. Canadas
>current budget is $150 billion leaving a shortfall of
Thomas,
If the objective is to transfer income from the haves to the have nots, I
don't understand why it can't be done through the tax system. Any parent
without an income could be given a basic credit, hence a "refund", of
$15,000, plus a diminishing amount for each kid (on grounds that each
s
reedy people. In an egalitarian society like
Canada, a substantial part of the surplus is distributed via the tax system
and by other means. If the surplus did not exist, there would be no point
to arguing that we should have a basic income. Quite apart from these
surpluses, the various forms
reedy people. In an egalitarian society like
Canada, a substantial part of the surplus is distributed via the tax system
and by other means. If the surplus did not exist, there would be no point
to arguing that we should have a basic income. Quite apart from these
surpluses, the various forms
pute that shortages are coming or that we have too many people,
> but reality is often very different than a statistic or an experts opinion.
"often"?? Would you quantify that on a % basis? Why should you be the
expert?
> >T 2:
> > basic income goes for basic fo
nd forced to live on and cultivate flood-prone
land: the backgrounder states. Well, if they would have had some kind of
Basic Income, perhaps there would not be so many landless or those who are
landless could have used a portion of the Basic Income to get started in
some urban venture. But with
>
> Well said. The * is mine and leads me to say that there is another
> component needed here also. You also need individuals able to respond to
> changing skill demands. For this you need good education, for this you need
> good early socialisation and for this we need a major redistribution o
$25,000 taxable income which amounts to a tax bill of
$6,250. His total income is $15,000 from the Basic Income and $18,750 from
his earned income for a total of $33,750. His tax rate is approx 15%.
Harry is a single man who earns $80,000 per year. The $15,000 deducted at
source, leave him $65,000 of
The Numbers
In round numbers, Canadas population is 30 million and if every citizen
received the Basic Income, the total cost would be $450 billion. Canadas
current budget is $150 billion leaving a shortfall of $300 billion. Seems
pretty impossible, doesnt it?
Just for example, lets say
him after a work
deduction rather than a Company paycheque. The balance is given to him at
the rate he and his employer have decided his wage is. A man earns $50,000,
he gets $35,000 from his employer and $15,000 rebated to him through his
Basic Income. If it is income from dividends or Capital
Scenario 1
John Smith is retired and has no income but he does own his own house. His
wife died two years ago and he is currently dating Ms. Jones and they are
talking about a relationship together. She owns a condonmium. Currently,
John would receive a Basic Income of $15,000 because he
The Family Basic Income Proposal
by Thomas Lunde
March 9, 1998
Money, we all need it, but too few of us are getting it. Traditionally, we
got money through work or investment. One of the millennium crises, is the
collapse of work as a means of getting money for many people. Nowhere is
this
-Original Message-
From: Steve Kurtz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Thomas Lunde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: September 3, 1998 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: Basic Income(2)
>Dear Thomas,
>
>I'm pleased to continue - a bit. Just to clarify where our judgements
>diverge
; "Thomas Lunde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>Thomas: Population is a problem, but I believe that when people are able to
>>fulfill some of their goals and needs is will become less of a problem. In
>>those western countries that experience affluence, the t
Ed said:
>This is an idea that goes way back to Major Douglas and the original social
>credit. I don't think it can happen that way. The reason that the poor
>have no money is that they are not on anyone's payroll. To get on a
payroll
>people have to produce something of marketable value. To
-Original Message-
From: pete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: September 2, 1998 8:46 PM
Subject: FW: Re: Basic income
> "Thomas Lunde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
t;greed" factor that
>is built in to capitalism, and perhaps our own genome as well.
>
>Thomas's Basic Income helps, in as much as it says that there is a generous
>amount that is "enough." It encourages rich people to spend their wealth
>which allows the mone
AM 02/09/98 +0100, Keith Hudson wrote:
>I refer to Thomas Lunde's proposals for a Basic Income.
>
>The idea of a basic income is appealing. Indeed, I have no objections to
>it in principle.
>
>But it won't work because it ignores one basic fact of human nature: we are
Durant wrote:
>
> > According to scientists,
> > the pie is shrinking as the number seeking slices is increasing.
> >
>
> Could you clarify on what basis such assumption is made?
-
Not assumption, measured judgement of thousands of seni
Business Economics sometime around 1995. I could look up
>the exact reference if anyone wants it (or maybe someone else has it on
hand).
Thomas:
I agree that these ideas seem counter intuitive to the philosophies we have
all accept from the business community and especially the neo-con
philosophy.
, that is the
most valuable area for growth for me.
>Thomas,
>
>(KH)
>>>[Basic Income] won't work because it ignores one basic fact of human
>nature: we are
>>>essentially a tribal species, the product of millions of years of
>>evolution.
>(TL)
>&g
wealth and surely, 99.95% of us would
agree that is sufficient for anyone - no matter what their achievements.
What then happens to the excessive wealth, that amount over 50 million
dollars? It would be remitted to the state for redistribution through a
Basic Income.
I refer to Thomas Lunde's original subject and Ed Weick's comments on it.
I'll abstract one para:
(EW)
This is an idea that goes way back to Major Douglas and the original social
credit. I don't think it can happen that way. The reason that the poor
have no money is that they are not on an
be leaving for Amsterdam in a couple of days to present a paper I
>wrote entitled "The Family Basic Income Proposal" at the BIEN Conference.
>The genesis of this paper came from a challenge by a FW participant arising
>from some comments I made in a thread called "Some Hard
Thomas:
>
>As I said in my intro, this is only half the posting. And it was basically
>to answer the middle class knee jerk reactions to the concept of a Basic
>Income. My plan was only done for Canada, so I can't respond to your
>information. I think when you see th
quitable distribution of
> income is not something that can proceed in the same way nationally and
> globally. Nationally, as rich Canadians, Americans, Swiss or Japanese, we
> can well afford to consider the possibility of a basic income for our own
> citizens. What is true for each of o
> According to scientists,
> the pie is shrinking as the number seeking slices is increasing.
>
Could you clarify on what basis such assumption is made?
Eva
> Steve
>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Thomas: It is not that the
> metaphoric pie has to grow, which usually means a small group controls more
> and more,
That is not the meaning I understand. "the pie" is the usable resources
both renewable and non-, and the products which *depend* upon resources and
energy. My point is that
r the
>birth rate to drop. I think a Basic Income, over time will act as a form of
>birth control.
Perhaps, but this is a different situation than that which drives low
birth rates in affluent countries. I wonder what the birth rate is
among the moderately independently wealthy, that is, tho
I support the idea as a "transitional demand"
as it cannot be realised in the
capitalist framework.
Eva
>
> "Basic Income" is an idea whose time has come. It's one of the keys to
> solving our environmental crisis. I support "basic Income" 100%.
>
> Jay
>
>
Thomas:
>
>As I said in my intro, this is only half the posting. And it was basically
>to answer the middle class knee jerk reactions to the concept of a Basic
>Income. My plan was only done for Canada, so I can't respond to your
>information. I think when you see th
>
> Thomas: Again I would point out that for many of the statements you make to
> be true, you have to believe in the self interest view of humans. I choose
> to believe that underneath that view exists a human who is compassionate,
> inclined to sharing and supportive of others. However when
s is increasing.
Thomas: Population is a problem, but I believe that when people are able to
fulfill some of their goals and needs is will become less of a problem. In
those western countries that experience affluence, the tendency is for the
birth rate to drop. I think a Basic Income, over time
unlikely that we will within our
>lifetimes, or even our great grandchildren's.
Thomas: Good question - the answer has to be government. Of course if only
Canada implemented a Basic Income scheme would all the rich leave - perhaps
we might look at it as a good things such as putting all
Ed Weick wrote,
>Generally, what that research revealed is not really
>surprising: that the world's richest and most democratic countries have the
>most equitable distribution of income while the poorest countries have the
>least equitable. What this suggests is that economic development and ris
ifference.
What I would suggest is that providing a more equitable distribution of
income is not something that can proceed in the same way nationally and
globally. Nationally, as rich Canadians, Americans, Swiss or Japanese, we
can well afford to consider the possibility of a basic income for our o
Just a reminder that the "income" vehicle is tokens or credits which are
utilized to purchase goods and services. The metaphoric "pie" must be
perpetually available - indeed expanding while population grows - if the
"income" is to sustain those dependant upon it. According to scientists,
the pie i
I refer to Thomas Lunde's proposals for a Basic Income.
The idea of a basic income is appealing. Indeed, I have no objections to
it in principle.
But it won't work because it ignores one basic fact of human nature: we are
essentially a tribal species, the product of millions o
-Original Message-
From: Keith Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Future Work <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: Thomas.Lunde <" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"@dijkstra.uwaterloo.ca>
Date: September 2, 1998 4:05 AM
Subject: Re: Basic Income
>I refer to Thomas Lunde's
dividend.
These though would be applicable to all and new effective investment values
would develop in the market that would still allow the creativity of the
capitalistic system to work effectively.
Now, between a flat tax and the influx of surplus accumulation, the
economies of a Basic Income will not
one (less 30 million)
and provided a Basic Income sufficient for food, shelter, cleanliness and
the possible opportunity of exploring some of their desires to every person
within a nation. (or on the whole planet)
My answer is simple, "Limit wealth!"
Just as a Basic Income would provide
So now, we finally come to the point of this essay. As I and others of like
mind, speak of the idea of providing a Basic Income for everyone so that we
can eliminate poverty, redistribute wealth, redirect human activities into
channels other than those motivated by profit, we run into a most
A Message to the Middle Class on the Financing of:
The Family Basic Income Proposal
by Thomas Lunde
August 27, 1998
There once was a race of people of high achievement who believed that the
value of their Civilization arose from their relationship with the Sun.
They made the Sun their God and
To all FW'ers:
I will be leaving for Amsterdam in a couple of days to present a paper I
wrote entitled "The Family Basic Income Proposal" at the BIEN Conference.
The genesis of this paper came from a challenge by a FW participant arising
from some comments I made in a thread ca
This is our Sun God, it is called "Profit". And our priests are those who
reflect the Gods blessing. And we follow them, for they have convinced us
that without work and responsibility we cannot be part of the chosen, that
we are deficient in some way, in terms of ambition or energy or skills.
A Message to the Middle Class on the Financing of:
The Family Basic Income Proposal
by Thomas Lunde
August 27, 1998
There once was a race of people of high achievement who believed that the
value of their Civilization arose from their relationship with the Sun.
They made the Sun their God and
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