Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

And I have to disagree with you Joe. To me, a mandatory RTC policy says “we don’t trust anybody”. Sure, it doesn’t discriminate, but it is also a PITA. One project I mentored uses RTC along with ReviewBoard and mandates that you cannot commit your own work and every commit must be formally

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Saturday, November 14, 2015, Rich Bowen wrote: > No. I can use whatever criteria I like to justify my vote on a podlings > graduation, if it's in line with asf philosophy. This document is, and > accurately reflects the criteria I use when voting on a graduation. That >

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Top-posting on purpose. This thread has veered from discussing specific concerns about Sentry to a discussion about the Maturity Model. It'd probably be good to fork the thread and continue the discussion separately in case other folks specifically interested in the discussion about Sentry are

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Nov 15, 2015 10:14 AM, "Justin Erenkrantz" wrote: > > On Saturday, November 14, 2015, Rich Bowen wrote: > > > No. I can use whatever criteria I like to justify my vote on a podlings > > graduation, if it's in line with asf philosophy. This document

RE: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

I think the Maturity Model, relied on as some guidelines for assessing a project, needs to be applied for that purpose in terms of identifying the striving-fors. Is there evidence that particular areas are being strived for. Is there evidence of an anti-pattern. How do these net out in the

RE: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Dennis makes a good point. Some to ago it became common to think of the diversity objective to become a minimum number of contributors from different orgs rather than an acceptance of new contributors views. Now we require a behavior pattern likely to lead to diversity. One is quantative

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Justin, Why is it so that graduation can be vetoed? Best regards, Pierre Smits *OFBiz Extensions Marketplace* http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/ On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote: > On Saturday, November 14, 2015, Rich Bowen

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Nov 13, 2015 4:50 PM, "Branko Čibej" wrote: > > On 10.11.2015 16:00, Pierre Smits wrote: > > That is nice! Apache pages drawn up by a member of the Apache Software > > Foundation with the input from many (both ASF members and others) and > > hosted/communicated through ASF

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 6:50 AM, Branko Čibej wrote: > That kind of argument is totally out of line. The IPMC may decide to use > the model as a metric for podling compliance and so integrate it into > the Incubator policy[1]. Unless and until that happens, any attempt to >

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On 10.11.2015 16:00, Pierre Smits wrote: > That is nice! Apache pages drawn up by a member of the Apache Software > Foundation with the input from many (both ASF members and others) and > hosted/communicated through ASF means, and then saying that those 'are not > Foundation'. And that by/through

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/10/2015 10:00 AM, Pierre Smits wrote: > That is nice! Apache pages drawn up by a member of the Apache > Software Foundation with the input from many (both ASF members and > others) and hosted/communicated through ASF means, and then saying >

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

> On 11 Nov 2015, at 17:24, Alex Harui wrote: > > > > On 11/10/15, 12:31 PM, "Steve Loughran" wrote: > >> * In any project where a significant number of the team members are >> expected to ship something in approximate correlation with a release >>

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On 11/11/2015 12:24 PM, Alex Harui wrote: > > On 11/10/15, 12:31 PM, "Steve Loughran" wrote: > >> >* In any project where a significant number of the team members are >> >expected to ship something in approximate correlation with a release >> >schedule imposed by

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Hi Steve, On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 9:31 PM, Steve Loughran wrote: > ...is JIRA-first development conducive to developing a community?... I don't think so, as you say this breaks the project into very small buckets and it's very hard for someone new to get the overview of

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 6:27 AM, Steve Loughran wrote: > > > On 11 Nov 2015, at 09:38, Bertrand Delacretaz > wrote: > > > > Hi Steve, > > > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 9:31 PM, Steve Loughran > wrote: > >> ...is JIRA-first

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On 11/10/15, 12:31 PM, "Steve Loughran" wrote: >* In any project where a significant number of the team members are >expected to ship something in approximate correlation with a release >schedule imposed by product management, project development decisions are >going to

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

"Trust is the basis of a healthy community" -- For sure. "and RTC (via Jira or otherwise) just screams "we don't trust you. we must review all commits first."" -- I disagree. RTC has merit independent of concerns of trust. If trust issues are present in a community then any number of

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

> On 11 Nov 2015, at 09:38, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 9:31 PM, Steve Loughran > wrote: >> ...is JIRA-first development conducive to developing a community?... > > I don't think so, as you say this

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 12:31 PM, Steve Loughran wrote: > This is an interesting topic, and one that is broader than just Apache > Sentry (incubating). Even so, I want to praise Joe Brockmeier for raising > it, and the comments -especially those from Greg Stein and Rich

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Yes. It is very much like a hackathon. And it has some benefits in that somebody in a small town who couldn't make it to a hackathon in person but who happens to be near the right time zone can still participate. On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Pierre Smits wrote: >

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Actually, I have seen some real benefits of on-line conferencing. These benefits are similar to conferences and meetups. It is clear that the way you have to do these things is *in*addition* to the normal email discipline, but the addition can really be positive in that quiet lurkers on the

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

In that respect it is just like a hackathon. Best regards, Pierre Smits *OFBiz Extensions Marketplace* http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/ On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 11:03 PM, Ted Dunning wrote: > Actually, I have seen some real benefits of on-line conferencing. These >

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Alex, Yes. Pretty much any project that has significant commercial applications will have cadres of developers from companies involved. Those companies will be managing those developers time and efforts to meet the company goals. This can definitely be pernicious, especially since a company

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

That is nice! Apache pages drawn up by a member of the Apache Software Foundation with the input from many (both ASF members and others) and hosted/communicated through ASF means, and then saying that those 'are not Foundation'. And that by/through the fingers of a fellow board member That

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

This is an interesting topic, and one that is broader than just Apache Sentry (incubating). Even so, I want to praise Joe Brockmeier for raising it, and the comments -especially those from Greg Stein and Rich Bowen and Marvin Humphrey for making me think more about this. * In any project with

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 3:26 AM, Niall Pemberton wrote: > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:28 AM, Lenni Kuff wrote: > > > On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:00 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote: > > > > > PMC membership has nothing to do with technical

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:28 AM, Lenni Kuff wrote: > On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:00 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote: > > > PMC membership has nothing to do with technical mastery of the codebase, > > which > > is why I cringe every time I see people talking about

RE: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

> -Original Message- > From: Branko Čibej [mailto:br...@apache.org] > Sent: Saturday, November 7, 2015 09:29 > To: general@incubator.apache.org > Subject: Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and > graduation > > On 03.11.2015 09:48, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: [ ... ]

RE: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

If the mentor brought the considerations to a podling for them to reconcile and record, that would be great. If that were guidance to mentors, that would be great also. What concerns me is that podlings of newly-arrived initial committers may tend to see whatever the practice that is suggested

RE: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

There should be no recommendation for podlings. Mentors should guide the podling to making the right decision for their community by discussing the pros and cons of each model. The idea of a mentor bringing their preference, or worse the IPMC having a "default" is problematic. Sent from my

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Sat, Nov 7, 2015 at 1:07 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: >... > Huh? The development of this document, > > > > > was carried out on the dev community list over a significant period of > time. It

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On 03.11.2015 09:48, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Joe Brockmeier wrote: >> ...Sentry started with 24 committers/PPMC. It hasn't added any PPMC members >> since its inception... > If that's correct I'm -1 on graduating Sentry. > > and earlier he

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Hi Rich - I have read it and I think that it is really good. My concern isn't with the document at all - I think that it would have been great to have earlier. IMHO, it should not be a measuring stick as much as a teaching tool. Mentors helping podlings learn what is meant by The Apache Way and

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

My belief is that committer != PMC is the ideal choice, based on my long history of watching communities at the ASF. It allows for onboarding committers rapidly and with a lower bar. That helps to draw them further into the community, reduces the workload of others (who would otherwise need to

Re: maturity guidelines (was Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation)

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 10:33 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote: > I don't think anybody is pining to make compliance with Bertrand's very nice > document into a policy document As a sidenote the maturity model is not "my" document. I did initiate that effort but it's been greatly

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Rich Bowen wrote: > On 11/05/2015 12:02 AM, Joe Schaefer wrote: >> Committership is the right to do work on the project. PMC membership is the >> right to participate in governance. People left in the nebulous state >> between >> committership

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 2:58 PM, Rich Bowen wrote: > On 11/05/2015 12:02 AM, Joe Schaefer wrote: >> Committership is the right to do work on the project. PMC membership is the >> right to participate in governance. People left in the nebulous state >> between >> committership

RE: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

I think there is a difference between what TLPs do and what the recommended approach for Podlings is. My impression, based on limited podling experience, is that the default tends to be PPMC == committer. Thanks for raising the notion of looking at why committers are *not* moved to the PMC of

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/05/2015 12:49 PM, larry mccay wrote: > +1 - I am concerned by the trend that I see developing here. > > A set of interview questions for evaluation is one thing but > criteria checkboxes that will encourage behaviors by rote will not >

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On 11/05/2015 12:02 AM, Joe Schaefer wrote: > Committership is the right to do work on the project. PMC membership is the > right to participate in governance. People left in the nebulous state > between > committership and PMC membership for long periods of time more than likely > will give up

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

> PMC membership has nothing to do with technical mastery of the codebase, > which is why I cringe every time I see people talking about what "the bar" > should be. It's about trust. If you trust someone to work the gears on a > release, > that has considerable impact on the well-being of a

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On 11/05/2015 01:34 AM, Joe Schaefer wrote: > Thanks Lenni. If Joe will permit me to put some words in his mouth, > he seems to be focused on how the project is solving coordination problems. > Coming to agreement on things like what to include in a release for > instance, which jiras get punted

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On 11/05/2015 03:13 AM, Martijn Dashorst wrote: >> PMC membership has nothing to do with technical mastery of the codebase, >> which is why I cringe every time I see people talking about what "the bar" >> should be. It's about trust. If you trust someone to work the gears on a >> release, >>

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > Correct. It is a tool, but not a requirement (at least not yet). > And since I repeatedly suggested this tool on this thread let me explain why. And, this is the root of my concern expressed in the other general@

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

+1 - I am concerned by the trend that I see developing here. A set of interview questions for evaluation is one thing but criteria checkboxes that will encourage behaviors by rote will not actually develop more healthy communities just communities that can get the boxes checked. While certain

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Hi Caleb - I am glad that it is useful for your projects. I think that the use of it that you describe is valuable. It should be used as guidance and interpreted by the mentors for each podling. "These sort of metrics can be used to indicate health in this way or that" - this is different from

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

I am not in favor of bureaucracy, However... Having reviewed the maturity model and speaking as a member of a newly incubating podling I would like to chime in to say that I find it very useful. It helps frame discussions around what we can be doing as a community to embrace the apache way, move

Re: maturity guidelines (was Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation)

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote: > IIRC you Roman were on the list of "undersigned" ;-). Yup. And that's why I felt like clarifying. > It got shot down for many, many reasons. Well, that depends on what 'it' is. But that's a different conversation ;-)

maturity guidelines (was Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation)

I don't think anybody is pining to make compliance with Bertrand's very nice document into a policy document. Rather, some people are finding it a useful guide to gauging project maturity, which is great and should be encouraged. On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:35 PM, larry mccay

Re: maturity guidelines (was Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation)

IIRC you Roman were on the list of "undersigned" ;-). It got shot down for many, many reasons. On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote: > > I don't think anybody is pining to make

Re: maturity guidelines (was Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation)

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote: > I don't think anybody is pining to make compliance with Bertrand's very nice > document into a policy document. To be fair, one offshoot of the 'undersigned' epic had that implication. It got shot down with 'trust the

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Le 05/11/15 13:48, Joe Brockmeier a écrit : > On 11/05/2015 03:13 AM, Martijn Dashorst wrote: >>> PMC membership has nothing to do with technical mastery of the codebase, >>> which is why I cringe every time I see people talking about what "the bar" >>> should be. It's about trust. If you trust

Re: maturity guidelines (was Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation)

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > ...that brought us to our current, much less forceful, treatment > of the maturity model. Which is what I (and a few others including > it seems yourself) have been advocating on *this* thread. I took the tenor of

Private PPMC discussions and archives (was Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation)

On 11/04/2015 03:55 PM, Sravya Tirukkovalur wrote: > One question on discussing candidature of a person for PPMC on private: > I know that private is only for PPMC, but I believe the new elected PPMC > can always get the digest for older messages (or not?). If that is the case > wouldn't it defeat

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

I like Roman's idea of filling out the maturity model template, I too think that might help get a holistic view . I can volunteer to do it as a sentry community member if needed. And let me take a stab at which of these I think we did for growing the community. On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 10:22 AM,

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015, at 08:43 PM, John D. Ament wrote: > I don't think that's the question on the table. Typically, podlings make > committers == PPMC members. The reasoning being that the only thing a > PPMC member can do is vote on adding new members. Other votes are all > non-binding (unless

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015, at 08:26 PM, Lenni Kuff wrote: > I think there is some confusion here. The Sentry project has never > considered Committer == PMC. The recent website change was only to help > clarify the roles of each of the members of the project, it was not the > result of any decision

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 5:52 PM, Joe Brockmeier wrote: > On Wed, Nov 4, 2015, at 08:43 PM, John D. Ament wrote: > > I don't think that's the question on the table. Typically, podlings make > > committers == PPMC members. The reasoning being that the only thing a > > PPMC member

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

I think there is some confusion here. The Sentry project has never considered Committer == PMC. The recent website change was only to help clarify the roles of each of the members of the project, it was not the result of any decision being made. Thanks, Lenni On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 3:03 PM, P.

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Nov 4, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Lenni Kuff wrote: >> On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 10:05 AM, P. Taylor Goetz >> wrote: >> >>> >>> On Nov 4, 2015, at 11:32 AM, Joe Brockmeier wrote: >>> >>> * I would invite folks with access to go to Sentry's

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015, at 09:02 PM, Patrick Hunt wrote: > My experience on other projects is the same as Joe. afaik it's up to the > podling, and most I've been involved with decided to go with committer != > ppmc. Honestly I thought that was the default. And here I think I have to agree that it

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

I don't think that's the question on the table. Typically, podlings make committers == PPMC members. The reasoning being that the only thing a PPMC member can do is vote on adding new members. Other votes are all non-binding (unless you're an IPMC member). It also helps promote the synergy

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Just to contrast this with the IPMC itself, we discuss everything here, including past decisions. Almost everything that happens here is a community decision, and we try to move with near unanimous consent. It is generally hard to figure out what roles people have without some formal VOTE where

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

+1 to the below. ++ Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. Chief Architect Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398) NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527 Email:

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Thanks Chris. So what I'm saying is, instead of adopting the position that "we" have made up our minds on this matter well before joining the incubator, why not recognize that at this point your community now includes new committers and new community members following along for which their voices

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Committership is the right to do work on the project. PMC membership is the right to participate in governance. People left in the nebulous state between committership and PMC membership for long periods of time more than likely will give up in frustration for not being trusted enough to govern

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Thanks Lenni. If Joe will permit me to put some words in his mouth, he seems to be focused on how the project is solving coordination problems. Coming to agreement on things like what to include in a release for instance, which jiras get punted to which release schedules, etc, it's hard to see

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

This may sound a bit pedantic, but the "Sentry project" isn't capable of considering anything. Either you are referring to a decision of the committers or the PPMC or the community, all of which requires some discussion over time about any position being taken. I would consider it unusual for the

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Also, I'm not quite clear on what is meant by "running" a release. Do you mean a committer not on the PMC functioned as Release Manager? Normally someone who does that is sending a clear-cut signal that they belong on the PMC, because all that work they are doing is being done on behalf of the

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Thanks Joe. That was a powerful read and very inspiring. This should be posted on a wiki someplace. I agree. This seems like an important topic to revisit on our list to see how the community feels - and more generally, discuss more topics (big, small, new, old) more frequently moving forward.

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

PMC membership has nothing to do with technical mastery of the codebase, which is why I cringe every time I see people talking about what "the bar" should be. It's about trust. If you trust someone to work the gears on a release, that has considerable impact on the well-being of a project, and

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Hi, On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 9:55 PM, Sravya Tirukkovalur wrote: > ...I like Roman's idea of filling out the maturity model template,... FWIW we did this recently for Groovy and it's been useful, see https://github.com/apache/incubator-groovy/blob/master/MATURITY.adoc

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Greg Stein wrote: > On Nov 4, 2015 10:03 AM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" >>... I agree but in the meantime we have >> https://community.apache.org/apache-way/apache-project-maturity-model.html > > "we" don't have anything.

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:00 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote: > PMC membership has nothing to do with technical mastery of the codebase, > which > is why I cringe every time I see people talking about what "the bar" should > be. > It's about trust. If you trust someone to work the

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 7:22 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote: > ...how about the > Sentry community focuses in on those three and asks, if we believe they are > not yet ready, what can we do to facilitate their development and get them to > the point where they *are* ready?

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Patrick Hunt wrote: > On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 10:05 AM, P. Taylor Goetz > wrote: > > > > > On Nov 4, 2015, at 11:32 AM, Joe Brockmeier wrote: > > > > * I would invite folks with access to go to Sentry's

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Joe, has any of this conversation put your mind at ease about the podling? I certainly think you've done the right thing by raising your concerns here and asking for a sanity check. On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 4:17 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > On Nov 4, 2015 2:47 AM, "Bertrand

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 12:47 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 10:42 PM, Patrick Hunt wrote: > > ...what would the action item the community should take away from > > this? As their mentor I'm not sure what advice i can give them.

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015, at 11:26 AM, Patrick Hunt wrote: > So you are -1 then. That's fine. But it gets back to my original concern. > It's artificial. I can go back to the Sentry community and say "hey, you > need some PPMC members, vote some in" and they might do it. It was > already > mentioned

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

Hi, On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 4:52 PM, Patrick Hunt wrote: > ...If you read the graduation requirements it says nothing about adding PPMC > as a strict requirement to graduation: > http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Graduating+from+the+Incubator ... I

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:03 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 4:52 PM, Patrick Hunt wrote: > > ...If you read the graduation requirements it says nothing about adding > PPMC > > as a strict requirement to graduation: > > >

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015, at 10:27 AM, Joe Schaefer wrote: > Joe, has any of this conversation put your mind at ease about the > podling? I'm less concerned than I was, yes. I'm still not in +1 territory. I'm not entirely sure I'm out of -1 territory. Sentry has made progress in its time in the

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 5:26 PM, Patrick Hunt wrote: > ...If they come back in a week and say "hey, > we just voted in 3 new ppmc members, now we're ready right?" you'll be fine > with that? This is why I highlighted it as artificial This is getting rethorical...I'm not

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Nov 4, 2015 10:03 AM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" wrote: > > Hi, > > On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 4:52 PM, Patrick Hunt wrote: > > ...If you read the graduation requirements it says nothing about adding PPMC > > as a strict requirement to graduation: > >

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Joe Brockmeier wrote: > On Wed, Nov 4, 2015, at 10:27 AM, Joe Schaefer wrote: > > Joe, has any of this conversation put your mind at ease about the > > podling? > > I'm less concerned than I was, yes. I'm still not in +1 territory. I'm > not

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:50 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > On Nov 4, 2015 10:03 AM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 4:52 PM, Patrick Hunt wrote: > > > ...If you read the graduation requirements it

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:35 AM, Joe Brockmeier wrote: > On Wed, Nov 4, 2015, at 11:26 AM, Patrick Hunt wrote: > > So you are -1 then. That's fine. But it gets back to my original concern. > > It's artificial. I can go back to the Sentry community and say "hey, you > > need some

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Nov 4, 2015 2:47 AM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 10:42 PM, Patrick Hunt wrote: > > ...what would the action item the community should take away from > > this? As their mentor I'm not sure what advice i can give them. "add

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Joe Brockmeier wrote: > On Wed, Nov 4, 2015, at 10:27 AM, Joe Schaefer wrote: > > Joe, has any of this conversation put your mind at ease about the > > podling? > > I'm less concerned than I was, yes. I'm still not in +1 territory. I'm > not

RE: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

For me, the key, nay brilliant, terms in the Maturity Model are about "striving." The question is always, is there demonstrable striving toward the elements identified in the maturity model. If that's not apparent, then one has to wonder, whatever the level of achievement, whether that's

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

> On Nov 4, 2015, at 11:32 AM, Joe Brockmeier wrote: > > * I would invite folks with access to go to Sentry's private list and > look over discussions about adding new contributors, and discussions > about the project in general. I took a look. From a community growth

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 10:05 AM, P. Taylor Goetz wrote: > > On Nov 4, 2015, at 11:32 AM, Joe Brockmeier wrote: > > * I would invite folks with access to go to Sentry's private list and > look over discussions about adding new contributors, and discussions >

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 9:06 AM, Patrick Hunt wrote: > In my experience "growing the community" is hard. It's very easy to say, > hard to do. Agreed -- and that why so many podlings put so much effort into it over the course of incubation and find it a challenging hurdle to

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: > For me, the key, nay brilliant, terms in the Maturity Model are about > "striving." > > The question is always, is there demonstrable striving toward the elements > identified in the maturity model. > > If

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Joe Brockmeier wrote: > ...Sentry started with 24 committers/PPMC. It hasn't added any PPMC members > since its inception... If that's correct I'm -1 on graduating Sentry. and earlier he wrote: > ..The model that Sentry is pursing may work very

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015, at 06:04 PM, Arvind Prabhakar wrote: > On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 12:28 PM, Joe Brockmeier wrote: > > > > > ... the reply from > > Arvind which basically says he doesn't consider it an issue if the > > project is "following a roadmap the community does not have

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Joe Brockmeier wrote: >> ...Sentry started with 24 committers/PPMC. It hasn't added any PPMC members >> since its inception... > > If that's correct I'm -1 on

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Mon, Nov 02, 2015 at 05:27PM, Vinod Vavilapalli wrote: > Many of the active TLPs do tend to center all project discussions on JIRA as > opposed to mailing lists. OTOH, non-code discussions are usually best served > on mailing lists. > > Instead of making it a JIRA vs mailing list discussion,

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Mon, Nov 02, 2015 at 04:27PM, Joe Brockmeier wrote: > On 11/02/2015 03:57 PM, Patrick Hunt wrote: > > I see this (the release discussion threads you linked) as a semi-mature > > community that's well aligned. A number of folks responded to the request > > for discussion and said they were in

Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015, at 04:42 PM, Patrick Hunt wrote: > On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 12:48 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz > > wrote: > > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Joe Brockmeier wrote: > > > ...Sentry started with 24 committers/PPMC. It hasn't added any

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