Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-23 Thread Greg Woodhouse
I certainly do not. --- K.S. Bhaskar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If anyone ever feels that I get too commercial, please feel free to castigate me. Thank you very much. Regards -- Bhaskar P.S. Kevin, did you ever get your IO working? I think that was what started the thread. ===

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Jim Self
Most MUMPS implementations have no problem with binary data. It's old utilities that are oriented to text-only data that might have a problem with it. GT.M, for instance is quite capable of uploading and downloading binary data, such as images, just fine. It can also easily hand off that task

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Thurman Pedigo
PROTECTED] [mailto:hardhats- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Self Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 3:13 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions Most MUMPS implementations have no problem with binary data. It's old utilities

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Greg Woodhouse
Off hand, I don't know, but members of this list do seem to have a tendency to plug GT.M (presumably because it is open source). Personally, I think we'd all benefit from a little more vendor neutrality. --- Thurman Pedigo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: . GT.M, for instance is quite capable of

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 11:18, Greg Woodhouse wrote: Off hand, I don't know, but members of this list do seem to have a tendency to plug GT.M (presumably because it is open source). Personally, I think we'd all benefit from a little more vendor neutrality. Good Morning! I don't know what

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Greg Woodhouse
What $P change is that? In any case, I agree with Kevin that I/O in MUMPS could be simplified. That being said, this is a stumbling block in any language becaue the user needs both the capability of reading (up to) a fixed number of bytes and scanning the input stream for complete lines of text

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
In the latter case, there is the problem that M programmers have a propensity for using sentinel values like ^ to delimit data items, but the first problem is much more serious. The only sure fire way to get data moved somewhere is with something like fread or fwrite. You must know

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Nancy Anthracite
I thought that was part of the purpose of $P change in the GTM code, to get it to recognize the TCP processes and not cut them off when something that would otherwise be recognized as a control character was sent. Can you leverage that somehow? On Sunday 21 August 2005 09:46 am, Kevin

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Greg Woodhouse
First of all, this is not a WorldVistA list, this is Hardhats. If WorldVistA chooses to focus entirely on GT.M that is their choice, but not everyone running (or interested in running) VistA will use GT.M, and the intent of this list is to focus on VistA infrastructure regardless of the platform.

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Greg Woodhouse
Right (no pun intended). The problem, of course, is that a # read in MUMPS doesn't necessarily behave like an fread. If it did, life would be much simpler. Or would it? There is still the problem ot text I/O, and unlike most other languages, MUMPS provides no standard mechanism of for linking to

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Nancy Anthracite
Guys, Kevin happens to be trying to code this at the moment and he is running GTM on his server. He is actually trying to write something cross-platform ultimately, so you can both pull in your horns. We are looking for a scanning solution that will work for everyone, and Kevin is putting a

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 12:04, Greg Woodhouse wrote: First of all, this is not a WorldVistA list, this is Hardhats. If WorldVistA chooses to focus entirely on GT.M that is their choice, but not everyone running (or interested in running) VistA will use GT.M, and the intent of this list is to

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 12:15, In addition, languages need to provide support for binary files, pipes and FIFOs, TCP channels and the like. MUMPS is very (7-bit) text-centric, essentially by design. Writing an encoding scheme should be fairly straight forward. 7 bit to 8 bit is exactly what

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Greg Woodhouse
I'm very familiar with electronic mail. I'll have to check to see if it's still there, but I may be responsible for a paltry single phrase in RFC 2821 (though I'd like to think that my participation in the WG mailing lists amounted to a bit more than that). --- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 12:41, Greg Woodhouse wrote: I'm very familiar with electronic mail. I'll have to check to see if it's still there, but I may be responsible for a paltry single phrase in RFC 2821 (though I'd like to think that my participation in the WG mailing lists amounted to a bit

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Greg Woodhouse
Right after you tell me about the bitwise operators in MUMPS! Actually, though you can't do bit arithmetic in MUMPS, you do have $A() and $C() so its quite possible to perform ordinary arithmetic on character values, so something like base64 shouldn't be too hard. Fileman even provides a basic

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Greg Woodhouse
Oops. that didn't wor'k. I'm using a web interface and the 94's were translated to ^. I wa wrong on two counts: the encoding is decimal, not hexadecimal, and the encoding used is the standard one for numeric entities in XML/HTML (meaning, BTW, that the name of the call is less of a misnomer than I

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Jim Self
Greg Woodhouse wrote: Off hand, I don't know, but members of this list do seem to have a tendency to plug GT.M (presumably because it is open source). Personally, I think we'd all benefit from a little more vendor neutrality. I am not a vendor and neither is GT.M. I mention GT.M (and Linux and

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Thurman Pedigo
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hardhats- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ruben Safir Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 9:53 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions I can't speak for others, but I always do

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Greg Woodhouse
--- Jim Self [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greg Woodhouse wrote: Off hand, I don't know, but members of this list do seem to have a tendency to plug GT.M (presumably because it is open source). Personally, I think we'd all benefit from a little more vendor neutrality. I am not a vendor and

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 14:26 -0700, Greg Woodhouse wrote: I'm less impressed by this argument. First of all, totally free is an illusion. You may not spend money on licensing fees, but if it takes you 10 or 100 or 1,000 hours of work to install and configure the system, that is a cost. That's

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Jim Self
Normal email is text based. In mime encoding, it handles binary files as attachments by surrounding them with a string of ASCII characters guaranteed not to be included in the content. This is a standard feature of web browsers used to upload HTML forms that can include binary data such as

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 14:26 -0700, Greg Woodhouse wrote: Open source may be a good thing (and I think it is), but is it being touted because it's the right way to do things or because it's the cheapest? I don't know what Open Source is exactly, but in the case of Free Software, its the right

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 14:26 -0700, Greg Woodhouse wrote: I've actually thought about inquiring into whether porting MUMPS_V1 to OS X might be an option, but I also have limited time and other things I'd rather do with the time I do have. No doubt we can all say essentially the same thing.

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Greg Woodhouse
Maybe not, but it's still not at the top of my priorities list. --- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 14:26 -0700, Greg Woodhouse wrote: I've actually thought about inquiring into whether porting MUMPS_V1 to OS X might be an option, but I also have limited time

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Greg Woodhouse
That's one perspective, but to others it might be a business decision. In the case of VistA, a hypothetical health care provider may opt for an open source solution because it believes that they money saved in licensing fees will not be offset, say, by increased support costs. Now, it may well be

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Jim Self
Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] My point of view is that programmers should not have to do extra work or rely on libraries or applications over and above the basic language environment to perform basic I/O tasks. In addition, languages need to provide support for binary files, pipes and

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 18:10, Greg Woodhouse wrote: That's one perspective, but to others it might be a business decision. In the case of VistA, a hypothetical health care provider may opt for an open source solution because it believes that they money saved in licensing fees will not be

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 18:00, Greg Woodhouse wrote: Maybe not, but it's still not at the top of my priorities list. That's COMPLETELY understandable. Ruben --- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 14:26 -0700, Greg Woodhouse wrote: I've actually thought about

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Greg Woodhouse
--- Jim Self [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] You keep making noises like you want to redesign the MUMPS language. Perhaps you should get involved with the development of GT.M or MUMPS_V1 or Kevin O'Kane's MUMPS, or even better with all three, and bring them

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Michael D. Weisner
From: "Ruben Safir" Monday, August 22, 2005 6:03 PM I don't know what Open Source is exactly, but in the case of Free Software, its the "right" way to do things. Its also usually the least expensive way as well, but that is just a side affect of it being a Free Software program. The freer

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
You have missed a very critical difference in the concept of Open Source, that is that the source code is available. Free software, the stuff that is given away, does not always incorporate the source code. The fact that I have access to the source code permits me to know the limitations

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
Lastly, what is meant by the statement: The freer things are, in most things, the more money you make and the less you pay for a unit. Who is referenced by the you. That would be you in the perfect sense. Ruben --- SF.Net email is

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
There are a number of reasons I'm not especially interested in getting involved with GT.M development right now. I have (seriously) considered it, but I have seen little interest expressed on this list in addressing the types of issues I've attempted to call attention to, and supporting the

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Greg Woodhouse
Fascinating. A language with tensed personal pronouns. --- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That would be you in the perfect sense. Ruben === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure. --Kent Beck

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Michael D. Weisner
From: Ruben Safir Monday, August 22, 2005 6:50 PM I believe your confusing Free Software with the marketing speech created by Bruce Perens. It's Free Software, like in Free Market, and it has a specific definition which is detailed here http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html Yes, of

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Michael D. Weisner
From: Ruben Safir Monday, August 22, 2005 6:52 PM Lastly, what is meant by the statement: The freer things are, in most things, the more money you make and the less you pay for a unit. Who is referenced by the you. That would be you in the perfect sense. Ruben This is

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 18:54, Michael D. Weisner wrote: From: Ruben Safir Monday, August 22, 2005 6:50 PM I believe your confusing Free Software with the marketing speech created by Bruce Perens. It's Free Software, like in Free Market, and it has a specific definition which is

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
This is perfectly ridiculous. One is either buying or selling, not both. It's both and everyone. Buyers, sellers, and even people who live on small islands in the pacific. Its You in the perfect sense. If you want to discuss this more, email me off list. Thanks Ruben

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 18:48, Greg Woodhouse wrote: Fascinating. A language with tensed personal pronouns. I think it is called perfect because it refers to group of people, each one individually, and at any time. It's more common in Hebrew. Ruben

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Greg Woodhouse
No, the issue is that it's necessary to compile MUMPS (not C). In principle, there's no reason why it can't be done. --- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unlike GT.M, it does not generate machine language in compiling MUMPS source routines so I would expect no special surprizes due to

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Greg Woodhouse
So, you're serious? That really is interesting. I have read that Japanese has a group of adjectives that can exhibit tense, but I did not know that pronouns in Hebrew could exhibit aspect like this. --- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 18:48, Greg Woodhouse wrote:

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
When God talks, everyone listens ;) Ruben On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 19:20, Greg Woodhouse wrote: So, you're serious? That really is interesting. I have read that Japanese has a group of adjectives that can exhibit tense, but I did not know that pronouns in Hebrew could exhibit aspect like this.

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 19:14, Greg Woodhouse wrote: No, the issue is that it's necessary to compile MUMPS (not C). In principle, there's no reason why it can't be done. I understand that. (or maybe I don't) But why can't GT.M compile to create binary RISK instructions for mumps with gcc? Ruben

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Jim Self
Ruben wrote: Unlike GT.M, it does not generate machine language in compiling MUMPS source routines so I would expect no special surprizes due to the shift from X86 on FreeBSD to PPC on OS/X. Why can't the complier generate the correct machine code for the RISC ? Is binary outputs embedded

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread whitten
Greg said: Unlike GT.M, it does not generate machine language in compiling MUMPS source routines so I would expect no special surprizes due to the shift from X86 on FreeBSD to PPC on OS/X. Why can't the complier generate the correct machine code for the RISK ? Is binary outputs

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 16:58 -0700, Jim Self wrote: Ruben wrote: Unlike GT.M, it does not generate machine language in compiling MUMPS source routines so I would expect no special surprizes due to the shift from X86 on FreeBSD to PPC on OS/X. Why can't the complier generate the

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Gregory Woodhouse
Actually, the problems are a lot more severe than the issue of 32 vs. 64 bit architectures. MUMPS is very free in allowing execution of strings built at runtime (much like LISP). Think about how you might go about compiling LISP to native code without relying on any sort of abstract

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Ruben Safir
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 23:49, Gregory Woodhouse wrote: Actually, the problems are a lot more severe than the issue of 32 vs. 64 bit architectures. MUMPS is very free in allowing execution of strings built at runtime (much like LISP). Think about how you might go about compiling LISP to

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-21 Thread Chris Richardson
Kevin; There is only a single data-type in MUMPS, strings. What you are doing is a fixed length buffer read of characters (real characters or binary data). You are opening up a big bag of issues which the MDC argued over for decades. If you are talking about binary, are you talking about

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-21 Thread Maury Pepper
Kevin, You are on the right track. Increasing the number of characters per READ is by far the most significant thing you can do to speed up your routine. Reading one character at a time using a star-Read is very slow. Each M implementation has a way to do binary reads -- ie, a read which

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-21 Thread smcphelan
, 2005 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions Kevin, You are on the right track. Increasing the number of characters per READ is by far the most significant thing you can do to speed up your routine. Reading one character at a time using a star-Read is very slow. Each M

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-21 Thread Ruben Safir
On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 15:13 -0400, smcphelan wrote: Here, here. Chris also stated this. ANSI standard M is not really designed to handle binary data. This is one reason Intersystems added extensions (if you wish to call it that). But then you are bound to a specific M vendor's

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-21 Thread Chris Richardson
) characters per word (Univac FIELDDATA), or 10 6-bit characters/word, but each of these are mapping systems for characters. - Original Message - From: Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-21 Thread Ruben Safir
of these are mapping systems for characters. - Original Message - From: Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 15:13 -0400, smcphelan wrote: Here, here

RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-21 Thread David Sommers
, Architect | Dialog Medical -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ruben Safir Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 3:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 15:13 -0400, smcphelan wrote: Here

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-21 Thread Kevin Toppenberg
PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 15:13 -0400, smcphelan wrote: Here, here. Chris also stated this. ANSI standard M is not really designed to handle binary data

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-21 Thread Gregory Woodhouse
The key word (not the keyword) here is encoded. Fileman actually provides utilities for hexadecimal encoding that I've found useful on more than one occasion. There are really two issues here: whether the M implementation can handle binary data (not necessarily), and whether applications