Other countries seem to be much more pro-consumer
compared to the caveat emptor attitude in the US.
Gary VanderMolen
- Original Message -
One thing is for sure ... there is no way in hell this would happen here in
Australia because we make a legal point of it that all telephone systems
Gary VanderMolen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Other countries seem to be much more pro-consumer
compared to the caveat emptor attitude in the US.
USA; the home of corporate greed for the last 150 years or so...
I was surprised to learn idea of corporations started in the
ancient Moslem East.
I was surprised to learn idea of corporations started in the
ancient Moslem East. See chapter 8.
True. But Islamic free trade disallows interest... makes for a
completely different system. Can you imagine Enron without all the
convoluted banking tricks?
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:53:46 -0700,
G.Waleed Kavalec [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
True. But Islamic free trade disallows interest... makes for a
completely different system. Can you imagine Enron without all the
convoluted banking tricks?
Not surprised. After all it was Western Man who figured out how to
make a weapon from
-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary VanderMolen
Sent: Friday, 25 March 2005 3:56
To: 'The Hardware List'
Subject: Re: [H] Texas Sues Vonage After Crime Victim Unable to Call 911
Importance: Low
Other countries seem to be much more pro-consumer
compared
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, 007 wrote:
Some quirks exist in Voice/IP.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58598-2005Mar22.html
The parents, who survived their injuries, didn't specifically request 911
services when they signed up.
Abbott, who is seeking $20,000 for each violation, said
The customer has to activate since he/she has to state where that
phone is going to be used since theoretically it can be used anywhere
it's got an internet connection. How is Vonage going to know where
you are using that phone? Hence it's up to you to do a bit of work.
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005
So why not just default it to active and save lives?
Apparently because, without being told explicitly by the customer,
Vonage doesn't know which jurisdiction to forward 911 calls to.
OTOH, you would think they could default the jurisdiction to
the billing address, or require that the residence
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, G.Waleed Kavalec wrote:
So why not just default it to active and save lives?
Sure.
So, which 911 exchange should 208.20.76.243 go to? Basically, vonage has
no clue where you are located in the world when you sign up, and what
happens when you move? Like i said, during the
G.Waleed Kavalec wrote:
So why not just default it to active and save lives?
They need to know where to route the information though to make the 911
call sensible. I am going to presume it is because a normal phone
line's actual numbers denotes the locality, where as a mobile phone
number is
I confess to ignorance re VoIP, but this can't be rocket science.
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:29:05 -0500, j m g [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The customer has to activate since he/she has to state where that
phone is going to be used since theoretically it can be used anywhere
it's got an internet
I'll bet if 208.20.76.243 hacked into the DOD, they would get located.
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:29:39 -0500 (EST), Christopher Fisk
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, G.Waleed Kavalec wrote:
So why not just default it to active and save lives?
Sure.
So, which 911 exchange
it does need a little intervention on
the part of the user - imagine that.
I.e. doomed to failure.
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:37:21 -0500, j m g [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No it's not rocket science, but it does need a little intervention on
the part of the user - imagine that.
On Wed,
Basically that's my opinion.
For the record I do NOT believe the lawsuit should succeed, but I do
believe that defaulting to no-911 is a bad decision.
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:51:12 -0800, Gary VanderMolen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
OTOH, a default 'best guess' by Vonage is better than nothing.
.)
007
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of j m g
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 12:37 PM
To: G.Waleed Kavalec; The Hardware List
Subject: Re: [H] Texas Sues Vonage After Crime Victim Unable to Call 911
No it's not rocket science, but it does
; The Hardware List
Subject: Re: [H] Texas Sues Vonage After Crime Victim Unable to Call 911
No it's not rocket science, but it does need a little intervention on
the part of the user - imagine that.
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 11:32:47 -0600, G.Waleed Kavalec [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I confess
At 01:37 PM 23/03/2005, j m g wrote:
No it's not rocket science, but it does need a little intervention on
the part of the user - imagine that.
May I point out that these lamers managed to live for years without
911. They actually wrote down the police number and put it beside the
phone. Wildly
At 01:51 PM 23/03/2005, Gary VanderMolen wrote:
OTOH, a default 'best guess' by Vonage is better than nothing.
After all, we're talking about saving people's lives.
Unless the 911 call goes to the wrong location and someone else doesn't get
police/fire/ambulance support because they are being
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, G.Waleed Kavalec wrote:
I'll bet if 208.20.76.243 hacked into the DOD, they would get located.
In real time?
Christopher Fisk
--
MY BUTT DOES NOT DESERVE A WEBSITE
MY BUTT DOES NOT DESERVE A WEBSITE
Bart Simpson on chalkboard in episode 3G04
PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher Fisk
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 12:12 PM
To: G.Waleed Kavalec; The Hardware List
Subject: Re: [H] Texas Sues Vonage After Crime Victim Unable to Call 911
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, G.Waleed Kavalec wrote:
I'll bet if 208.20.76.243 hacked
Thane Sherrington wrote:
At 01:51 PM 23/03/2005, Gary VanderMolen wrote:
OTOH, a default 'best guess' by Vonage is better than nothing.
After all, we're talking about saving people's lives.
Unless the 911 call goes to the wrong location and someone else doesn't
get police/fire/ambulance support
OTOH, a default 'best guess' by Vonage is better than nothing.
After all, we're talking about saving people's lives.
Unless the 911 call goes to the wrong location and someone else doesn't get
police/fire/ambulance support because they are being wasted looking for a
call that has been misrouted.
How difficult would it be for someone to take responsibility for their
own safety and not leave it in someone else's
never mind.
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:32:26 -0800, Gary VanderMolen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Come on, the users are told they need
to enter this information, they are told
hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: Re: [H] Texas Sues Vonage After Crime Victim Unable to Call 911
Christopher Fisk wrote:
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Chris Reeves wrote:
Closer then you'd think. We've had people hack into (try) corporates
here
in KC, and they were tracked within 1/2 hour
, etc.) but they can't force you to do it as part of a sell
of service.
CW
-Original message-
From: Gary VanderMolen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:32:35 -0600
To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: Re: [H] Texas Sues Vonage After Crime Victim Unable to Call
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:12:23 -0500 (EST), Christopher Fisk
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, G.Waleed Kavalec wrote:
I'll bet if 208.20.76.243 hacked into the DOD, they would get located.
In real time?
Try it and see ;-)
-0600
To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: Re: [H] Texas Sues Vonage After Crime Victim Unable to Call 911
Come on, the users are told they need
to enter this information, they are told multiple times. How is this not
the users fault?
How difficult would
-
From: G.Waleed Kavalec [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:58:38 -0600
To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: Re: [H] Texas Sues Vonage After Crime Victim Unable to Call 911
So force disclosure of preferred 911 area.
So vonage should default to potentially incorrect information for
emergency response - I don't see the point. This makes you safer?
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:01:21 -0500, Wayne Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At 01:43 PM 3/23/2005, j m g typed:
How difficult would it be for someone to take
At 02:01 PM 3/23/2005, CW typed:
there are still areas of the US where 911 does not exist.. example: my
parents live in such an area..
But because they don't I assume they know the local police, fire hosp
numbers or at least program them into their phone(s).
--+--
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, G.Waleed Kavalec wrote:
So force disclosure of preferred 911 area.
This is a good idea, and will probably end up being done just because it
makes sense, but does that mean this couple who didn't specify their 911
calling area should get $20,000 from Vonage?
I guess I'm from
Is it so hard to imaging yourself trapped in an emergency - with
someone else's Vonage phone?
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:09:44 -0500, j m g [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So vonage should default to potentially incorrect information for
emergency response - I don't see the point. This makes you safer?
Texas is suing, not the couple.
Specifically Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott.
He should lose, IMHO, but a 'default 911 area' should go in.
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:13:56 -0500 (EST), Christopher Fisk
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, G.Waleed Kavalec wrote:
So force
At 02:09 PM 3/23/2005, j m g typed:
So vonage should default to potentially incorrect information for
emergency response - I don't see the point. This makes you safer?
Yes, as something is better than nothing besides 911 people ask for your
location when you make a call to them [unless they know
Is 911 a right or a privilege?
At 02:13 PM 3/23/2005, Christopher Fisk typed:
This is a good idea, and will probably end up being done just because it
makes sense, but does that mean this couple who didn't specify their 911
calling area should get $20,000 from Vonage?
I guess I'm from the survival of the fittest mindset. If
When I signed up for cell phone service, they wanted both a
billing address and a residence address. I don't see how asking
for that information would be against the law.
Gary VanderMolen
- Original Message -
It would be impossible. The requirement to force disclosure of location is
-
From: Wayne Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:10:05 -0600
To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: Re: [H] Texas Sues Vonage After Crime Victim Unable to Call 911
At 02:01 PM 3/23/2005, CW typed:
there are still areas of the US where 911 does not exist
At 02:21 PM 3/23/2005, G.Waleed Kavalec typed:
Texas is suing, not the couple.
Specifically Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott.
He should lose, IMHO, but a 'default 911 area' should go in.
If that happens then doesn't everybody win then the suit would have to be
deemed effective? Much better
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Wayne Johnson wrote:
And you're going to tell 375lb Bubba this ? What are we suppose to do when
Bubba thinks he's a genius ? The point is many people can't help that they
are stupid some lazy people can't either. We have many senior citizens that
never graduated
Subject: Re: [H] Texas Sues Vonage After Crime Victim Unable to Call 911
When I signed up for cell phone service, they wanted both a
billing address and a residence address. I don't see how asking
for that information would be against the law.
Gary VanderMolen
- Original Message
To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: Re: [H] Texas Sues Vonage After Crime Victim Unable to Call 911
At 02:01 PM 3/23/2005, CW typed:
there are still areas of the US where 911 does not exist.. example: my
parents live in such an area..
But because they don't I
-Original message-
From: G.Waleed Kavalec [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:41:17 -0600
To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: Re: [H] Texas Sues Vonage After Crime Victim Unable to Call 911
Mess? Those 911 folks would know how to route the call.
911 is not necessarily
Christopher Fisk wrote:
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Wayne Johnson wrote:
And you're going to tell 375lb Bubba this ? What are we suppose to do
when Bubba thinks he's a genius ? The point is many people can't help
that they are stupid some lazy people can't either. We have many
senior citizens that
At 02:35 PM 3/23/2005, Christopher Fisk typed:
Where does it end?
It seems to me that you have some things confused. One may be life or death
while the other is not altho you may feel like dying if you forgot the heat
sink that doesn't count. If life or death situations are no one else's
CW wrote:
Trust me, there are things called a mess.
Let's say my sister gets 9-11.
So you have an emergency?
Yes, we have XYZ emergency.
OK, where do you live?
Ok, we're about a mile and a half off of HWY57
Is there a street address?
No, we don't have street addresses.. we are not far from
Kavalec [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:41:17 -0600
To: The Hardware List hardware@hardwaregroup.com
Subject: Re: [H] Texas Sues Vonage After Crime Victim Unable to Call 911
Mess? Those 911 folks would know how to route the call.
911 is not necessarily allways called by coherent
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Wayne Johnson wrote:
At 02:35 PM 3/23/2005, Christopher Fisk typed:
Where does it end?
It seems to me that you have some things confused. One may be life or death
while the other is not altho you may feel like dying if you forgot the heat
sink that doesn't count. If life or
At 02:41 PM 3/23/2005, G.Waleed Kavalec typed:
911 is not necessarily allways called by coherent adults, in case you
were unaware.
Great point. How's the kid suppose to know if mommy /or daddy didn't sign
up for 911 service ?
IMHO if 911 service is available in their location then it should be
At 02:49 PM 3/23/2005, Carroll Kong typed:
My teacher suggested to use the local police station numbers instead since
it can be much faster and more reliable.
you expect a 6yr old to remember in a panic situation any thing besides
911 ? IMHO that teacher ought to be fired unless they were
I'm not arguing that vonage should/shouldn't have 911 calls patched.
I'm saying that since their phones/services can be used anywhere the
customer should have the onus to set the freakin thing up correctly.
If the power's out and your broadband connection is dead who are you
going to blame?
Wayne Johnson wrote:
At 02:49 PM 3/23/2005, Carroll Kong typed:
My teacher suggested to use the local police station numbers instead
since it can be much faster and more reliable.
you expect a 6yr old to remember in a panic situation any thing
besides 911 ? IMHO that teacher ought to be fired
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Wayne Johnson wrote:
FWIW in every other situation I would agree.
At 02:49 PM 3/23/2005, Christopher Fisk typed:
It's Fords fault you didn't wear a seatbelt.
To a point it is. Why do they put those annoying buzzers in that go off
every couple of minutes if they didn't feel
What about the GPS thing I mentioned?
1) locates the user in an instant, can route the 911 call approriately.
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:07:17 -0500, Wayne Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Wayne Johnson wrote:
FWIW in every other situation I would agree.
At 02:49 PM
I think that Texas winning the lawsuit would invoke Vonage to do
something about it, such as spending the money to incorporate a GPS
unit within the phone that is auto-activated during 911 calls.
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 14:09:18 -0600, G.Waleed Kavalec [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How many times do I
Francisco Tapia wrote:
What about the GPS thing I mentioned?
1) locates the user in an instant, can route the 911 call approriately.
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:07:17 -0500, Wayne Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Wayne Johnson wrote:
FWIW in every other situation I would agree.
At
Francisco Tapia wrote:
I think that Texas winning the lawsuit would invoke Vonage to do
something about it, such as spending the money to incorporate a GPS
unit within the phone that is auto-activated during 911 calls.
Oh, if it only activates during 911, then sounds like a good idea.
--
-
At 03:04 PM 3/23/2005, Christopher Fisk typed:
I believe my response to Wayne answers this. Is it the car makers fault
that you don't buckle that seatbelt in a car accident?
Think about the cars that have the auto shoulder belt. They say they are
a liability if you don't also belt the manual
At 03:15 PM 3/23/2005, Carroll Kong typed:
Oh, if it only activates during 911, then sounds like a good idea.
My cell phone has GPS I can set it to work only with 911 calls or not so
why can't Vonage do something similar ?
--+--
Wayne D. Johnson
Ashland, OH, USA 44805
: Re: [H] Texas Sues Vonage After Crime Victim Unable to Call 911
How many times do I have to repeat:
1. IMHO the Texas AG should LOSE the lawsuit.
2. IMHO Vonage should require a default 911 area.
It's a learning process.
Only drawback is that it would double the price of the Vonage adapter.
For mobile cellphones GPS makes sense, but not many people will be
carrying their Vonage adapter around with them.
Gary VanderMolen
- Original Message -
What about the GPS thing I mentioned?
1) locates the user in an
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005, Gary VanderMolen wrote:
That's a good compromise, but how can a judge force Vonage
to implement a default 911 if the plaintiff loses the suit?
Best scenario is for Vonage to lose the suit, be fined $1.00
and ordered to implement a default 911 routing. That
would be a win-win.
Unfortunately it is not always the person making the omission who suffers.
How will you explain to a 14-year-old girl, babysitting at someone else's house,
why 911 failed to work while some pervert was breaking down the back door?
Gary VanderMolen
- Original Message -
*shrug* as someone
Unfortunately it is not always the person making the omission who suffers.
How will you explain to a 14-year-old girl, babysitting at someone else's
house,
why 911 failed to work while some pervert was breaking down the back door?
I will point at the homeowner and say They didn't spend the 5
:04 PM
To: The Hardware List
Subject: Re: [H] Texas Sues Vonage After Crime Victim Unable to Call 911
Unfortunately it is not always the person making the omission who
suffers.
How will you explain to a 14-year-old girl, babysitting at someone else's
house,
why 911 failed to work while some
This is very true, however for people who move it makes it so that
they do not have to re-set their location.
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:29:14 -0800, Gary VanderMolen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Only drawback is that it would double the price of the Vonage adapter.
For mobile cellphones GPS makes
Not all existing cell phones have GPS and GPS might not work from the
location where the modem is setup.
Cell phone are not a convenience for over 10 years now here in the US.
There is no perfect solution, too many laws jurisdictions, too many
idiots. Don't change from the established, proven,
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