RE: [PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)

> -Original Message- > From: Stanislav Malyshev [mailto:smalys...@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 3:11 AM > To: Zeev Suraski ; John Bafford > Cc: PHP internals > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers

[PHP-DEV] Back to the code (was Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct))

> On January 12, 2016 at 7:05 PM Adam Howard wrote: > > Can we please move on past this and get back to actual code. Because if > not, perhaps PHP Internals has outgrown the email format and should migrate > to a forum type format. Agreed. Sascha -- PHP Internals -

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] PHP 5's Support Timeline

Le 05/01/2016 10:51, Zeev Suraski a écrit : the vote is now open for the PHP 5 Support Timeline RFC: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/php56timeline#vote Hi, We've discussed this at length at AFUP, and would be +1 to extend the lifetime of PHP 5, by a huge margin. As for the duration, we would be

Re: [PHP-DEV] Fixing bug #68063

Hi Stas, On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: >> The root cause is browser's cookie handling. >> It appears that browsers do not lock cookie while updating cookies. >> Therefore race condition happens and browsers send empty cookie >> sometimes. I

Re: [PHP-DEV] Throwable and Error exceptions break existing PHP 5.x code

I want to thank Markus and Björn for getting me up to speed with the pointers. Please see the rest of my response below. On 11 January 2016 at 15:05, Rowan Collins wrote: > Giovanni Giacobbi wrote on 11/01/2016 13:31: > >> set_exception_handler(callback function, bool

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)

On 12/01/16 04:24, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: >> This is getting a bit ranty. But internals deserves it. You all may >> > be great programmers, but in terms of making people *want* to work on >> > php-src, you're shitty salespeople. > Maybe. For myself, I'm pretty much surely a shitty salesperson.

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki

Hi Eli, Am 11.01.2016 um 15:45 schrieb Eli: On 1/10/16 8:15 AM, Dennis Birkholz wrote: I would really like to understand the rational behind anonymous voting in the PHP internals context. Votes for RFCs should be purely based on technical reasons and whether the language change would benefit

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Number Format Separator

Thomas Punt wrote: >> I'd like to propose for the inclusion of a digit separator in PHP. This will >> help to promote the readability of numerical literals in code by enabling for >> the underscore character to be used in between digits. >> >> RFC: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/number_format_separator

[PHP-DEV] NEUTRAL Benchmark Results for PHP Master 2016-01-12

Results for project PHP master, build date 2016-01-12 06:30:56+02:00 commit: 786d959 previous commit:e6ed53e revision date: 2016-01-11 22:04:04+01:00 environment:Haswell-EP cpu:Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2699 v3 @ 2.30GHz 2x18 cores, stepping 2, LLC 45 MB

[PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)

On 1/11/16 10:46 PM, John Bafford wrote: Stop the nonsense. Get better, grow up, treat each other with respect, and act like the adults you are. I'd like to work with you all, but you make it dammned hard to want to. Hi John, Good for you for writing and sending your email! Really. The

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki

On 1/12/16 5:16 AM, Dennis Birkholz wrote: > I don't think voting on an RFC is like electing your government. I > would compare it to how a House of Representatives works. And at least > here in Germany, they vote publicly except when electing people (e.g. > the Chancellor). That's a fine

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki

Am 12.01.16 um 15:06 schrieb Eli: > On 1/12/16 5:16 AM, Dennis Birkholz wrote: >> I don't think voting on an RFC is like electing your government. I >> would compare it to how a House of Representatives works. And at least >> here in Germany, they vote publicly except when electing people (e.g. >>

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)

Can we please move on past this and get back to actual code. Because if not, perhaps PHP Internals has outgrown the email format and should migrate to a forum type format. On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 11:45 AM, Pierre Joye wrote: > On Jan 12, 2016 11:17 PM, "Sascha Schumann" <

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki

On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 5:00 PM, François Laupretre wrote: > Le 12/01/2016 15:52, Dan Ackroyd a écrit : > >> François Laupretre wrote: >> >> I would like the process to be amended to disable posting >>> opinions/discussions about an RFC while the vote is open, >>> considering

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [RFC] Normalize token_get_all() output (with flag)

On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 9:07 AM, Rouven Weßling wrote: >> On 05 Jan 2016, at 21:52, Andrea Faulds wrote: >> This is more of a side-note, but maybe it's worth bringing up. Since >> token_get_all gives an array with subarrays of a regular structure, might it

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [Draft] Adopt Code of Conduct

Hi all, I've already written a blog on the topic, so needless to say I have no objections personally to seeing a Code of Conduct. Reading the current draft RFC, I did see a few potential issues which I'd like to raise on the specific text used insofar as it's starting point. 1. It should

Re: [PHP-DEV] Throwable and Error exceptions break existing PHP 5.x code

Giovanni Giacobbi wrote on 12/01/2016 09:37: But the fact is that it did NOT exist, so when you say "other than the specific transition to PHP 7", well I think it is a big deal and motivates the introduction of a new feature just for that. I guess what I meant was, once everyone has been

RE: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Number Format Separator

> Hi internals! > > I'd like to propose for the inclusion of a digit separator in PHP. This will > help to promote the readability of numerical literals in code by enabling for > the underscore character to be used in between digits. > > RFC: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/number_format_separator > PR:

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki

> > > > This seems useful. I do wonder whether we should use by default for > > RFCs. It's interesting to see how different people vote, and knowing > > who voted which way means you can ask them what their objections were. > I have gotten these question in the past, and I think it's important to

Re: [PHP-DEV] Throwable and Error exceptions break existing PHP 5.x code

giova...@giacobbi.net (Giovanni Giacobbi) wrote: > Also think about the possible upcoming changes to the Throwable definition, > I saw in another thread that you are thinking about dropping > Throwable::getCode(), which would make things even worse, in case of > something as simple as: >

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki

On Tue, 12 Jan 2016, Peter Petermann wrote: > > > > > > > This seems useful. I do wonder whether we should use by default for > > > RFCs. It's interesting to see how different people vote, and knowing > > > who voted which way means you can ask them what their objections were. > > I have gotten

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki

Am 12.01.16 um 15:56 schrieb Peter Petermann: >> >> Discussions happen. Then a vote is called, everyone votes instantly. >> Yes, the votes do become public afterwards. However there is not the >> '2-3 week period' of voting that happens on a PHP RFC, wherein you vote, >> and then while the vote

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki

François Laupretre wrote: > I would like the process to be amended to disable posting > opinions/discussions about an RFC while the vote is open, > considering there was enough time for that during the > discussion phase. This is not a good idea. That won't actually make people discuss a

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki

Am 12.01.16 um 15:53 schrieb Zeev Suraski: > > >> -Original Message- >> From: Andreas Heigl [mailto:andr...@heigl.org] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 4:21 PM >> To: Eli ; internals@lists.php.net >> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki >> >> Am 12.01.16

RE: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki

> -Original Message- > From: Andreas Heigl [mailto:andr...@heigl.org] > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 4:21 PM > To: Eli ; internals@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki > > Am 12.01.16 um 15:06 schrieb Eli: > > On 1/12/16 5:16 AM, Dennis

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki

> > Discussions happen. Then a vote is called, everyone votes instantly. > Yes, the votes do become public afterwards. However there is not the > '2-3 week period' of voting that happens on a PHP RFC, wherein you vote, > and then while the vote is still up, and while you are allowed to change >

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)

I personally offered at least two emails with constructive feedback and alternative solutions. I never saw any reply or feedback to either one. I also had some emails in which I was somewhat argumentative (the ones related to the definition of harassment). I still stand by those emails as they

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki

On 1/12/16 9:53 AM, Zeev Suraski wrote: > I'm at least one of the people who talked with Eli regarding the STH > vote (the one for my RFC, not Eli's). It was a ~20 message DM exchange > on Twitter, very respectful (Eli - if you think otherwise, please say > so), and was truly aimed at

RE: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki

> -Original Message- > From: Eli [mailto:e...@eliw.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 5:07 PM > To: internals@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki > > On 1/12/16 9:53 AM, Zeev Suraski wrote: > > I'm at least one of the people who talked with Eli

RE: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Number Format Separator

Hi Christoph, > echo 1_000; > will print > 1000 > > I think it is important to explicitly note that in the RFC. > > With regard to "stringy numerics": besides the potential BC break, IMHO > there is no need to support digit separators for string literals at all, > because that could easily be

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki

Peter Cowburn wrote: > On 11 January 2016 at 12:14, Zeev Suraski wrote: > >> I have no idea if it's related, but is there any chance the patch caused >> some older votes to be broken - at least in how they're displayed? >> Case in point: >> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/voting/vote >

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)

> My take away from Anthony's last email is basically: "We're going to have a > CoC whether you like it or not. You are welcome to offer feedback to make > the CoC better after we propose it, but any feedback that says a CoC is bad > will be viewed as non-constructive and ignored." That would be

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)

On 12 January 2016 at 15:27, Chase Peeler wrote: > I personally offered at least two emails with constructive feedback and > alternative solutions. I never saw any reply or feedback to either one. It's not possible for every email to be replied to in a conversation. If

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki

> During the CoC-Discussion the idea came up to vote certain CoC-issues > (call them whatever you like) in a more secure way so that no one sould > be able to bully someone into an - for him or her - inappropriate > decission. One way to do so could be a somehow anonymised vote. Is discussing

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki

Le 12/01/2016 15:52, Dan Ackroyd a écrit : François Laupretre wrote: I would like the process to be amended to disable posting opinions/discussions about an RFC while the vote is open, considering there was enough time for that during the discussion phase. This is not a good idea. That

[PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)

Stas, On Jan 11, 2016, at 23:24, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: > > Hi! > >> This is yet another example of the toxic internals problem. >> Regardless of one's views on the CoC proposal, the conduct of >> php-internals as a whole has been reprehensible. > > What in your

[PHP-DEV] Fixing bug #68063

Hi Julien, I've disallowed empty session ID, but it wasn't a appropriate fix. https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=68063 I made appropriate patch for this issue. It should be applied from PHP 5.5 to master. I attached patch to the bug report. Could you apply it from PHP 5.5? Or shall I commit it

RE: [PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)

John, Thanks for taking the time to write that lengthy email. There are a lot of things in there I agree with, and a lot I disagree with, but that's beside the point for now. One part in particular in your message got me thinking: > I understand that we’re a passionate people, and that

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [RFC] Normalize token_get_all() output (with flag)

Hi! > Nice! I'll say one thing though: If we're going to introduce a class, > I'm tempted to leave token_get_all alone (or at least limit its > changes to what's in the current porposal), and have the PhpToken > class implement its own static method to do the same thing. This I like this idea

Re: [PHP-DEV] Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)

On Mon, 2016-01-11 at 22:46 -0500, John Bafford wrote: > So let's say, hypothetically, internals actually, seriously, wants > newcomers. Back in the days when I was more active when teaching newcomers internals in articles and conferences I typically pointed them to pecl-dev for the first

[PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)

Hi! > Let me reiterate that the question that was posed, and which I am > answering is, “Why do people avoid internals?” and “Does internals > want to attract newcomers?” Sure, but you talked about specific behavior in specific discussion. Except of an incident of some unfortunate name-calling,

Re: [PHP-DEV] Fixing bug #68063

Hi! > I've disallowed empty session ID, but it wasn't a > appropriate fix. > > https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=68063 Could you explain a bit more about the part where there are empty IDs generated? You say it "is browser's cookie handling" - could you explain more about it? > I made

RE: [PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)

> 4. As soon as authors notice substantial opposition, they'll quickly realize > they're dealing with an RFC that's very unlikely to pass, and probably eiter > abandon it or go back to the drawing board - and eliminate any contention > that may have otherwise surrounded it. One other thing I

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)

> > > We’ve got a giant steaming pile of crap here. As awesome as U+1F4A9 is, > the fix is to stop trying to polish the turd and actually clean up our act. > You want php-internals to lose its toxic reputation? Here’s how: *STOP > BEING TOXIC*. How? I dunno. I’m open to ideas. I’m happy to help.

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [RFC] Normalize token_get_all() output (with flag)

On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: >> How does this sound? >> 1. Keep the current RFC basically as is. It's a minor addition to >> token_get_all() which can be slotted into existing code to improve >> readability, but offers little advantage beyond

Re: [PHP-DEV] Fixing bug #68063

Hi! > The root cause is browser's cookie handling. > It appears that browsers do not lock cookie while updating cookies. > Therefore race condition happens and browsers send empty cookie > sometimes. I haven't checked the code, but observed it happens. > > I observed handful empty cookies a day

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)

Hi! > I have one idea. I made an awful mistake while drafting the Voting > RFC, requiring a 2/3 majority for language changes. It should have > been 85-90%. When you have a 85-90% majority - it's likely to imply > several things: I have a feeling that wouldn't help. Instead of "it's toxic

Re: [PHP-DEV] Fixing bug #68063

Hi Stas, On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 8:03 AM, Stanislav Malyshev wrote: >> I've disallowed empty session ID, but it wasn't a >> appropriate fix. >> >> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=68063 > > Could you explain a bit more about the part where there are empty IDs > generated? You

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)

On 1/12/16 5:27 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote: 4. As soon as authors notice substantial opposition, they'll quickly realize they're dealing with an RFC that's very unlikely to pass, and probably eiter abandon it or go back to the drawing board - and eliminate any contention that may have otherwise

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)

Sascha, > On Jan 12, 2016, at 11:17, Sascha Schumann > wrote: > > Hi John, > >> And it is *not* acceptable. > > May I ask who put you in charge to determine whether something is "acceptable" > or "reprehensible”? *I* avoid internals because *I* believe the

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [RFC] Normalize token_get_all() output (with flag)

> On 05 Jan 2016, at 21:52, Andrea Faulds wrote: > > This is more of a side-note, but maybe it's worth bringing up. Since > token_get_all gives an array with subarrays of a regular structure, might it > be worthwhile returning an array of objects instead? It would probably reduce

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)

On Jan 12, 2016 11:17 PM, "Sascha Schumann" < sascha.schum...@myrasecurity.com> wrote: > > Hi John, > > > And it is *not* acceptable. > > May I ask who put you in charge to determine whether something is "acceptable" > or "reprehensible"? (for him) and other. Everyone speaks for himself or a

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki

Am 12.01.16 um 16:45 schrieb Sascha Schumann: >> During the CoC-Discussion the idea came up to vote certain CoC-issues >> (call them whatever you like) in a more secure way so that no one sould >> be able to bully someone into an - for him or her - inappropriate >> decission. One way to do so

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)

Hi John, > And it is *not* acceptable. May I ask who put you in charge to determine whether something is "acceptable" or "reprehensible"? Sascha -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

RE: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki

> -Original Message- > From: Andreas Heigl [mailto:andr...@heigl.org] > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 5:34 PM > To: Zeev Suraski ; Eli > Cc: internals@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki > > Am 12.01.16 um 15:53 schrieb